was preserved and not destroyed the earth helping the woman against the rage of the Dragon Sure there can no sense hence be gathered of hell gates prevailing to destroy her Lastly Act. 8. 1. It speaketh of Sauls making havock of the Church and persecuting of it but this tended greatly to the increase of it and not to the destroying of it Certainly I. S. will not think much lesse say hell gates at this time prevailed against the Church indeed it never did for that was alwaies true which was said of the Church of old Many a time have they afflicted me from my youth may Ps 129. 1. 5. Israel say but they have not prevailed against me the righteous Lord hath cut the cords of the wicked in sunder I suppose I. S. hath but small judgement and lesse aim to bring such Scriptures as these to prove that hell gates have prevailed against the Church in any Scripture sense It were far better for him to hold the continuation of the Church according to the sure Word and faithfull promise of Christ and if he would not acknowledge her continuance under the apostacy and defection aforesaid then to indeavour to find her continuance some where else But in regard this would overthrow his new unbaptized Church and proceed that way he rather chuseth to asperse Christ of unfaithfulnesse in his promise then by acknowledgement to give him the glory of it In regard of the former matter J. S. seemeth to have had an eye to a collaterall reason which he setteth down thus Where was their Church before it came out of the defection First let it be observed how he shaketh hands with the Romanists that use to say in like manner Where were the reformed Churches before Luther But in further answer to this demand I say it was in regard of the matter of it in Babylon as the seven thousand were in the apostacy of Jeroboam out of which apostacy of Babylon God called them forth Rev. 18. 4. And so by the efficacy of that heavenly voice they being drawn forth they served God in the purity of his Ordinances a part as the Israelites that left Jeroboam and his Idol-worship 1 Thes 1. 9. at Dan and Bethel and served God at Hierusalem These turned from those Idoll waies in Babylon To the pure service of God in Sion and so kept according to the injunction the Ordinances as they were delivered to them 2 Thes 2. 15. This question is of the nature of what we have treated on before about leaving a corrupt Church for obstinacy in evill and therefore I shall not further trouble my self nor the Reader about it being assured it cannot reach so high as make good any sense of the destroying of the Church by persecution to which it is added here I shall only here minde the Reader that our question is not of one particular Church but of the state of the Church remaining in one place or other with few or many in freedome and purity or in bondage and corruption according eo various conditions and changes that attends her in the world wherein she is in all of those conditions preserved by Almighty God I. S. addeth in his further proceed saying That which once was in such a way of being and ceases for a time and then comes to the same estate againe is and may truly be said ever to continue as Mat. 22. 31. with Luk. 20. 38. In which sense the Church may be said ever to continue for though she be cast down at one time yet god will raise her againe at another so as she shall never be prevailed against so as to be utterly destryed Answ This is plaine nontsense to me first granting then denying and so the whole amounting to just nothing but a meer conceit Here is the Church in a way of being here is the Church seasing to be for a time here is the Church comming to live have being again here is the Church that ceased to be for a time affirmed untruly to have ever a being just as the Temple had when it was destroyed here is the Church cast downe that is without being for so he must mean else he deceiveth here is the Church said to be raised up by God againe and her being restored to her here is concluded the Church was never prevailed against so as to be utterly destroyed Truly truth is strong and prevaileth I. S. speaketh not as of himself but as overcome by the truth which he fought to darken and turn aside but at last is forced to confesse it as they were that had hand in crucifying Christ that said Truly this was the Son of God when they had before crucified him So Mat. 27. 54. he in like manner is in the end forced after all to confesse that the Church was never prevailed against so as to be utterly destroyed But I shall here observe how that what he before said might be made a rationall matter if it were rightly applyed as thus That which was once in such a way of being that is to say pure and undefiled and for a time ceases so to be that is becomes corrupt and defiled like the faithfull City that became an harlot And Es 1. 21. then comes the same estate againe that is to her former purity and holinesse is and may truly be said ever to have a continuation In this sense I would joine with J. S. touching the Churches continuation for though she be corrupted at one time yet God will restore her to purity at another yea If by affliction she be diminished Ps 107. 39. Ps 105. 24. and made low at one time yet at another time God increaseth her like a flock of sheep In either of which senses she hath never been prevailed against so as to be destroyed but this genuine sense J. S. may not admit of for that it will not stand with his way and practice and therefore by multiplicity of expressions he would produce some thing namely That the Church may some time live and have a being and at another time die and lose her being and yet she shall never cease to be That is be prevailed against to be destroyed and this he thinketh to prove by alluding to a place or two of holy Scripture before quoted for confirmation of his conceit To which I answer those Scriptures indeed do seem to illustrate his sense and what he intendeth namely that the Church may be said ever to continue though at some time she ceased to be But how senselesse a thing it is thus to conceit will appeare if we minde the matter a little It is the resurection of the dead which is the case now as men die and are not and yet shall live again and be so the Church in like manner But may such and such men be said to have ever a continuance in the World which is our question and not to have been destroyed by death because they shall
head and husband that all this time of her backsliding did not renounce her In short she was approved to be but not approved as pure in that her being And surely so is the case of the Church where Antichrist sits as God 2 Thes 2. 4. The matter so considered let J. S. when he awaketh make the most he can of it The second part of the dream is this that this is a part of the same I suppose he meaneth corrupt as the whole is To which I answer though it be corrupt yet it is no part of the corruption there being difference as before betwixt a thing and the corruption that attends it the Israelites were a part of the Schisme of Jeroboam The seven thousand were a part of the ten Tribes which went astray In a diverse 1 King 19. 18. sense persons may be of the Church of God and members for their parts and yet in a way of Idolatry and in that way none 1 Cor. 12. 27. compared with 1 Cor. 5. 1. 1 Cor. 25. 12. of Gods as may be further seen by the case of Manasses as also of the Priest that went astray that went along with the Israelites in their Idolatry sure there is little in this part of the whole But in the third place in his deep charge he saith this is to look for a man in the Moon Answ Just as J. S. did look for the Church and Baptisme in the Scriptures Indeed Eliah thought as his complaint sheweth that he was left alone but God told him otherwise for sure to Rom. 11. 3 4. minde a Church as retaining her being though in a corrupt estate is no looking for a man in a Moon though he for want of other matter and better proofe is pleased out of his sick stomack to say so against the truth and such as stand for it Fourthly saith he It is to suppose a Church to consist in such matter as is destructive to it self Sure J. S. cannot make out this in any rationall way it is but a part of his dream to hold a Church to consist of matter corrupt and degenerate as was the Idolatrous Israelites and as was the lukewarme Laodiceans is not to hold amisse is not to hold the matter destructive to the form or being The faithfull City becomming sometime a harlot Indeed such matter is against Esa 1. 21. the well being of the Church but that is not our question the matter of the Church ought to be holy and pure but it is often otherwise Fifthly he saith to hold a continuednesse of the Churches being though not of her well being his term is here succession of truth but he meaneth sure the Churches being It is against the light of nature Answ A marvellous high ascent and sore charge but it is but rashly spoken as one in a dream that loveth no inferences But however it is well it is not against the light of the holy Scriptures J. S. hath left them and is gone to the light of nature but how doth the light of nature teach that a Church and Ordinances of which is our question cannot continue their being if corrupt or greatly corrupted Truly no more then in the case of Job that he should not or could not be a man because corrupt Job 2. 7. The folly and weaknesse of this fifth part of the dream I suppose any weak judgement will be able to see and I will say no more In the sixth place to bring up the reare he addeth a charge of a foule nature That to hold a continuance of the Church and Ordinances under the apostacy of Antichrist Is a keeping of the Pope upon the throne of Christ whether he will or no But how doth this appear truly as all the rest because he saies so I would ask J. S. or any other if the holding the Israelites of the ten Tribes to be Gods people and their Circumcision to be Gods Ordinances did thus keep up that apostacy and the Calves at Dan and Bethel perforce as in the place of God and his waies Againe doth J. S. and those of his way because they hold the continuation of the same Scriptures and which is more translated by Antichristians in their sense and so successively from Pope Jone doth he or they in thus doing keep the Pope upon the throne of Christ whether he will or no It concerns him to see to it and to renounce and cast away those Antichristian Scriptures as he hath done his Baptisme and so seek new Scriptures too lest not being true to his owne principles hee should become guilty of keeping the Pope upon the Throne of Christ whether he will or no. Experience the School-mistris of fooles hath shewed the contrary of this charge in the Reformed Churches who have almost unthroned the Pope of whom J. S. and those of his way as if they had some compassion have busied themselves in making a little Terret Throne for him to sit upon and inhabit in namely their Babel practise And certainly their erroneous practise and way doth more help to keep the Pope upon the Throne of Christ then any other thing that pretends opposition to it as that course doth of which a little more hereafter and for the present I shall onely here aske J. S. whether he doe think the Pope doth sit upon the Throne of Christ yea or no if he say yea then sure hee sitteth in the Temple of God in the Church for Christs Throne is there He proceedeth after that great charge thus But to lay the chain of succession of truth this way namely through the Popedome of Rome as all such must doe that hold a personall succession of a Church Ordinances to consist in the same from the Apostles untill now What will such doe and where will their succession of truth lye when they come to the woman Pope of whom the Papists themselves are ashamed In answer I retort it thus to lay the chain of succession of truth this way namely through the Popedome as all such must doe that hold the writing or the letter of the Scriptures to have continued from the Apostles untill now in a way of personall succession in that defection what will such doe when they come to the woman Pope of whom the Papists themselves are ashamed truly J. S. hath cause to be ashamed of his foolish reason which if it were true he would finde himselfe to be at as great a fault as his oponent But further I say such as hold the continuation of the Church and Ordinances through Popish defection or under the state of the Popedome will doe well enough with their tenent notwithstanding Pope Jone who could never reach the Churches being to cause it to cease nor yet Baptisme of which in speciall is our question all the coined words of J. S. put upon the matter will not doe it as his chain of succession of truth in stead of continuation of Baptisme again hold
very dark and smoakie this hee will doe by shewing the manner of the aforesaid Constitution in the causes of it How will he doe it in pag. 40. by saying over again what he had said again and again before namely that the Scriptures remaining in the place of the Apostles for us to have recourse unto and serve as the mouth of Christ Alas this is but a poore clearing for this is onely in a directive way as before I noted And what then The Scriptures being so truly nothing at all Yes saith he as the Apostles did before the Scriptures were written To which I say there were Scriptures before the Apostles to which the Apostles had an eye and regard and directed others to doe the like The holy Apostles they acted Ordinances of Religion preaching breaking bread and baptizing The Scripture acts nothing neither can they surely Act. 2. 42. this is a poore clearing we will minde the Scriptures hee here quoteth Matth. 28. 20. 2 Pet. 19. 20 21. Rom. 10. 6 7 8. In answer I will not tire my selfe and the Reader certainly no man can imagine any thing more then direction from that full and perfect rule of the Scriptures as gatherable from those places of Scripture which as before I said none deny let him but call to mind what he said of an orderly way which God requireth and how that is as he conceiveth by the Church and then let him tell mee if hee can to what purpose these Scriptures are or that which followeth that as the Lords people conferred with the Prophets and Apostles about their great affaires so have the Lords people now Moses and the Prophets Christ and his Apostles in their writings as Luk. 16. 29. And what then truly nothing it is but for direction as before nor yet that which further followeth in this clearing matter of the constituting causes which are saith he with the spirit of life in them as effectuall as their personall presence if not more Answ Stay a while the matter is sure otherwise for this effectuallnesse if it were granted is but directive But it is not wholly granted for that the Apostles were men inspired and sent of God to declare his will they were a saving meanes of good to men and God in his good pleasure as a double mercy gave his Word and sent his Apostles and Prophets sure I take it it must needs follow that if the Scriptures were as effectuall without the Apostles and rather more then with them then God gave the Apostles in vaine and the Churches were great losers by their personall presence but the truth is otherwise as is most manifest The Scripture with the Spirit of life in them act nothing but onely direct and furnish men how to act according to the will of God in an orderly way according to what hee holdeth For proofe of what before he affirmed of the effectualnesse of the Scripture he quoteth Joh. 6. 62. 2 Pet. 1. 18 19. Revel 11. 3 5 11. Answ That in John speaketh of Christ ascending where he was before how this should prove any thing is beyond my thoughts I will say nothing but leave the Reader to judge of it That place of Peter is of the sure direction of the Word in dark and our doing well to take heed to it That in the Revelation is of the two witnesses a thing too mysterious to be a proofe in this case I suppose J. S. will not hold himselfe to be one of those witnesses nor he with others of his way to be both those witnesses there spoken of I will say no more but leave the Reader to judge whether these Scriptures doe prove that the holy Scriptures with the Spirit of life in them as he is pleased to say are in stead of the Apostles personally sent of God with power to act ordinances or whether they in the case of the Ordinances dispensing in an orderly way are as much or more effectuall then the Apostles personally that were sent of Christ for that end who did not send the Scriptures as in the case of the Eunuch but Philip and in the case of Cornelius Peter as in those and the like instances may be seen He proceedeth and in full concluding of this matter saith and thus all succession what phrase have we here from the beginning came to Christ Of what speakes hee now of Ordinances I had thought all Ordinances had ever proceeded from him he being ever the Lord of the Church and sure he meaneth the Ordinances namely those ordained of old under Abraham and Moses and the Prophets these lasted continued to the coming of Christ into the world the substance indeed of those shadows so his sense may be good From Christ he saith to the Apostles from the Apostles to the Scriptures This is pure non-sense if I mistake not and beside I aske him where is that orderly way he told us of and how is the case now according to 1 Cor. 3. by him alleadged for the Authority of an unbaptized Church Doth he not by this discent seclude them from all rather then inright them to any such authorite happily he will say Oh from the Scriptures to us very good But first how from Christ to the Apostles Did Christ our Lord preferre the Apostles before his beloved Spouse for whom he gave himselfe I alwayes took the Apostles as the servants of the Church for Christs sake Secondly did the Ordinances 2 Cor. 4. 5. proceed from Christ to the persons of the Apostles or to their office as Apostles So as when they in regard either of person or office left the world it descended to the Scripture certainly the right and interest of the Scriptures was the same before the death and cessation of the Apostles as after and the Scriptures gained no legacie by such friends unlesse a sealing to the truth and full authority of their direction so from the Scriptures to us a wonderfull matter a very fair Ring from the Scriptures to the Scriptures and so to us just nothing but a shew of words without matter Further he saith That all succession is now spirituall So it seemeth he holdeth it was carnall before when it was from Abraham to Moses from Moses to Christ and the Apostles and so to the Scriptures and now it is from the Scriptures to us it is spirituall a rare conceit He saith it is now according to faith whether he mean faith of miracles or what else is hard to say but it mattereth not much for he is beside the Scriptures and walking in some other field It followeth not saith he the personall succession of any but onely the Word of God Answ Sure J. S. speaketh in a strange tongue he is never able to make out his sense that succession follows the Word the Word being immoveable and that which abideth for ever and hath no place for succession though he thus speaketh he know not what And the word of God he saith
immediatly from God that sent him to prepare the way of his Son Secondly concerning Iohn the Scripture testifieth That he was a Prophet and more then a Prophet But how or what or whether or Matth. 11. 9. no concerning his particular Baptisme it is altogether silent It is not for men to be over wise or meddle above what is written but let the body of Moses alone Last of all I will put it upon this Issue In the judgement of indifferent men whether they think it will follow that because Abraham and Iohn Baptist were the first beginners and actors in Circumcision and Baptisme by vertue of speciall Commission to them personally that therefore it was lawfull of old in case of Circumcision for any of the heathen to have also circumcised themselves and families or in the case of Baptisme for others at that time by vertue of his example to have baptized also as he did without any Commission at all for if in those times it was not lawfull for them so to do but of necessity they must go as our Lord did to the Baptist then in as much as length of time can give no warrant to a thing not warrantable at the first I conceive it will be given and concluded that Instance is invalide and of no force to warrant a person to baptize himself or others being himself unbaptized Which he in the case of Baptisme saith was written for our learning and teacheth us what to do upon the like occasion To which I say supposing the occasion he here speaketh of is not that of necessitie that hath no law but leaveth men at liberty to do the best they can which is the last refuge of I. S. and those of his way There is I say no such occasion as in the case of Iohn there being no Scripture to be fulfilled by sending a messenger before to prepare Christs Matth. 3. 3. way There is no such occasion for that there is no new Commission nor any new Ordinances to be set on foot Again there is no such occasion for that there is baptized persons in the world to repair unto that as Christ our Lord went to Iohn so we might go to them Besides what is not written cannot be for our learning Now it is not written when or where or by whom or whether at all Iohn was baptized so as none of any such things can be for our learning unlesse we will go beyond our Lesson But this is written that he was sent of God and had speciall Commission to do what he did that we might learn not to run before we be sent but to be obedient in going when we are bidden and doing as we are commanded as he did Further I. S. saith for the continuance of the Church from Christs words The gates of hell shall not prevail against it Here by the way I take notice that he hath laid aside his succession and personall succession and speaks now plain English namely the continuation of the Church Matth. 16. 18. Now what saith he to this He confesseth the same But in so doing he overthroweth his new way and course for if the Church continue and hath continued what need is there of new beginning and baptizing by persons unbaptized surely none at all And therefore he maketh his acknowledgement with a proviso that is by a distinction that indeed is either a non-sense or else a flat deniall The distinction is thus That this Church is to be considered in her instituted State as it lieth in the Scriptures in the rules of the foundation See what expressions are here Instituted State Rules of foundation Lying in the Scripture as much and no more then this according to the pattern set forth in the Word Or otherwise in the second place in her Constitation or constituted form in her visible Order As much as if he had said in her outward being Now of the pattern is not our question for as the pattern of the Temple was one thing and the Temple built or to be built was another thing so it is here But see what J. S. saith having made such a distinction as before to darken the truth Thus he saith Against the first hell gates never prevailed This pattern standing sure in the Scriptures as of old the pattern of the Temple might remaine when the Temple was destroyed But against the Church it self which is the second part of his distinction it hath prevailed So the summe is as much as if he had said hell gates never prevailed against the Scriptures but against the Church built according to the Scriptures it hath Now let any man excuse the irrationalnesse of I. S. if he can thus to grant in shew and deny in substance and truth with one breath the continuation of the Church according to the Word and ptomise of Christ made to the Church and not to the Scriptures And I say unto thee thou art Peter and upon this rocke Mat. 16. 18. to wit himseif I will build my Church and the gates of hell shall not prevaile against it to destroy it For why it was built on a sure foundation not to be moved for ever Now this Church the continuation whereof he granted before having deceived himself and his Reader by a groundlesse distinction he denieth the continuation now and saith Hell gates hath prevailed often against it But whence is it that he is thus contrary and I and no Saith he For the Church hath been often in her outward order scattered through persecution and the like Sure this is a very weighty reason thus to over power a man what if the Church hath bin scattered through persecution must it then follow a destroying by hell gates though the Church hath been greatly scattered through persecution yet she continued her being and was so far from being by hell gates prevailed against as that they overcame by suffering Rom. 8. the gates of hell and were more then conquerers The blood of the Martyrs being the seed of the Church and the Church the more oppressed the more growing and increasing J. S. saith in this sense of being scattered she is said to be overcome To which I say that this is not the sense of Mat. 16. 18. nay it is against the sense of the Scripture that by afflictions the Church should be overcome when as in all afflictions the Church hath been more then conquerers through Christ that loved her I. S. citeth two or three places Dan. 7. Rev. 12. Act. 8. 1. For that in Daniel it is utterly against his sense for speaing of the Kingdome of Christ his Church it saith it shall not be destroyed vers 14. 27. As for that Rev. 12. it plainly declareth the prevailing of the Church and not her being overcome or destroyed and that they overcame by the blood of the Lambe and that the Dragon was cast out It indeed speaketh of the womans fleeing into the Rev. 12. wildernesse but there she
please So as it must be the want of his new Baptisme or nothing and then I leave it to him to judge whether that be not the form of the Church necessarily according to his ground that gives the being thereunto Secondly if by such he meanes those he was an opponent of in the former matter of the Churches continuation and likewise Baptisme under Popish defection I shall adde a little in the way of defence First granting that such hold indeed no Church to wit rightly constituted as a right or lawfull Ministeriall Church without or before the matter of this Church is baptized Secondly denying that in so holding they make Baptisme the form of the Church as he inferreth and so make Baptisme the form there is more goeth to the proof of a matter then so His five Reasons might well have been spared by which he would prove Baptisme not to be the form of the Church till he had made that to appear to be of necessity the right consequence which sure he is never able to do for there was no right Ministeriall Church of old without Circumcision yet Circumcision was not the form of that Church an uncircumcised person was not to be admitted a member much lesse an officer Circumcision was then an externall qualification of the matter as in like manner is Baptisme now In this matter we shall have recourse to the first beginning of the Church of the new Testament and of Baptisme John the Baptist the forerunner of Christ sent of God to prepare the way of his Son according to Commission baptized much people as did also afterward the Disciples of Christ our Lord to him repaired our Lord to be baptized that righteousnesse might be fulfilled It may be observed by the way that this was in the Church of the Jewes Of these thus baptized was the Church of the new Testament begun whether the initiation of it be referred to the time before the passion of our Lord as to himself and the twelve with whom he brake bread or whether it be referred to the time after his resurrection when he gathered the 120. together and blessed them as is most Acts 1. proper let him take his choice and refer to which he will it was begun of the aforesaid baptized matter which is certainly to the life of the matter in hand in discovering that the matter of the Church was fitted by Baptisme before it was laid together As was the Church at the first rise of it so was the proceed those 120. baptized those that joyned with them being not before baptized as it is written they were baptized and added to the Church This first Church scattered by persecution became the instrument of increase and the first matter of many Churches which Churches by their instruments baptized such as received the faith and joyned into the Lord and thus was the Church and Kingdome of Christ spread throughout the World as the holy history doth shew And let J. S. or any of his way shew that there was ever any unbaptized Church or Congregation of the new Testament or that ever any unbaptized person was received into fellowship or that ever any unbaptized person after Baptisme was a foot in the World baptised or was authorized for to do it And lastly let him tell me whether the order of the new Testament as in another case he asked be not as strict in this case of Baptisme as it was in Circumcision of old when no uncircumcised might have part in the Church or fellowship in the Ordinances much lesse act Ordinances Esek 44. in way of dispensing of them to others And let him tell me whether a precept or example be not as necessary in all those cases as in that of baptizing Infants And lastly whether his practice of raising and beginning the Church of unbaptized persons do agree with the primitive practice of our Lord and his Apostles that began the Church of baptized matter as before J. S. propoundeth a second Reason of his opponents thus The Scripture speaketh of no Church before Baptisme To which he answereth as he did to that of the Gates of Hell not prevailing against the Church He must distinguish he saith A meer shift to blind his Reader and avoid the truth there needs no distinction at all in the case He would not take it well if any should distinguish in case of Infants Baptisme But what is his distinction it is betwixt the truth of the doctrine of Baptisme and the administration of it just as he did in the fore-named case as much as if he had said He must distinguish betwixt the Scripture that teacheth Baptisme and Baptisme or washing according to the Scripture In this first sense Baptisme or the doctrine of Baptisme as much as if he had said the holy word of God is before the Church What this is to the purpose is beyond my judgement nor yet that which followeth no Church according to the order of Christs Testament without it or before it No Church without or before the Scripture how this is to the matter in hand and what clearing or rather darkning there is in this distinction I leave the Reader to judge But now for the second part of the distinction Namely the outward administration of Baptisme that ever followeth the Saints joyning in fellowship by mutuall faith and agreement in the Doctrine wherein consists the stating of the Church in her conjoyning in Covenant which ever goes before in the administration of Baptisme and gives power and authority for the same so saith he in the first sense the Church is not before Baptisme but in the last it is Answ The summe and scope of this whole matter amplified and enlarged is utterly false being referred to the purpose for which J. S. doth bring it namely to prove an unbaptized Church or the Scriptures speaking of such Alas this is farre from proving the matter no not in a seeming way In this case it may be truly said from the beginning it was not so The matter of the Church was fitted outwardly by Baptisme as is before declared And the Scriptures give no president of such Church officer or member at any time such a proceed being cleane besides the Scriptures 2. J. S. deceiveth if not himselfe yet others in what he setteth down in referring that to the initiation of a Church which is onely true of the proceed The Church stated and on foot in the world according to God of baptized persons baptizeth others in way of proceed in a orderly way of administration so it was at the beginning and to begin otherwise is not according to the pattern So as not taking notice of the difference between right beginning and orderly proceed he is clean out and beside the truth and his distinction will appeare to be vain and to no purpose unlesse to deceive for as he setteth down that Baptisme ever followeth in regard of the administration of it the Saints joyning in