the Demonstration of the Spirit and of power C. True there is no compare between these But hath your Minister that Demonstration of the Spirit and of Power N. C. Yes sure if ever any man had C. That 's good news for then we shall see that which before we only believed Hath he the gifts of the Holy Gost Can he speak with Tongues and Prophesie and work Miracles and tell us the thoughts of mens hearts N. C. What do you mean C. I mean that which the Apostle Saint Paul meant who had this Demonstration of the Sipirit and of Power which he gave the world to convince them that Jesus was risen from the dead and was made Lord of all whom they were therefore bound to obey N. C. But I mean something else C. Pray tell me what that is Only let me desire you not to use words without the sense belonging to them and to intreat your Minister that he would hereafter forbear to pray to God that he may speak in the Demonstration of the Spirit and of Power for no body now can hope to do it N. C. I mean that he is spiritually enlightned to search the deep things of the Spirit of God which the natural man cannot discern C. I wonder at you that you should not discern the Apostle there speaks of the Holy Ghost i.e. the wonderful Gifts of it in them which â—ssured them of those things that no meer natural Reason could prove I doubt your Minister is not spiritually enlightned because he doth not instruct you better in the Scriptures N. C. Scriptures He never says 〈…〉 but he quotes a place of Scripture for it 〈…〉 Sermons are nothing else whereas you 〈…〉 but Rational Discourses C. I remember I have heard a wise man say that one may talk nothing but Scripture and yeâ— speak never a wise word And I verily believe it for it is not the Word of God when we mistake its sense as you commonly do N. C. Doth yours do any better C. Yes he seems to me to make it his business to let us into the meaning of the holy Book And he backs his Reason not with phrases snatch'd from thence but with such place as manifestly speak the same sense that he doth N. C. I have heard him sometimes endeavouâ— to open the Scripture but methinks he doth not do it in a Spiritual way but onely Rationally C. My good Neighbour consider what yoâ— say Do you think that these two words Spirituaâ— and Rational are opposed the one to the other If they be then Spiritually is as much as Irrationally and absurdly N. C. No pardon me there I do not think those two are opposite but Carnal Reason is opposite to the Spirit C. To speak properly you should say that Carnal Reason is opposite to Spiritual Reason That is a Reason that is guided by Fleshly lusts â—s opposite to that which is guided by the Gospel of Christ Ns. C. I say as I said before it is opposite to the Spirit C. You must either mean as I do or else that it is opposite to the Gospel which is frequently called the Spirit in Scripture But pray tell me how shall we understand the Gospel by our Reason or by something else Ns C. By the Spirit C. What must we have an immediate Revelation to make us understand its sense or must we study and consider and lay things together and so come to know its meaning N. C. Yes we must give our minds to it and then the Spirit enlightens us C. That is it guides us to reason and discourse and judge aright Is not that it you mean N. C. No I mean it shines into our minds with its light C. These are phrases which I would have you explain if you can My Question is this Doth the Spirit shew as any new thing which is not the conclusion of the Reasonings and Discourses in our minds about the Sense of Scripture N. C. I cannot say it doth C. Then you confess that the Scripture is to to be interpreted in a Rational way we not having that which is truly to be called Spiritual in distinction from the other viz. the immediate revelation of the Holy Ghost which the Apostles had N.C. Still I cannot think that this is Spiritual C. That is you are prejudiced or else you phansie every thing that you do not understand to be Spiritual N.C. No not so but the manner of understanding the things of God methinks should be other than you conceive C. Truly if you have any other manner of understanding besides this and have not the extraordinary gifts of the Holy Ghost I conclude you take the sudden and many times pretty suggestions of Imagination to be Illuminations from above N.C. Now you have hit on something that I would have said The Spirit doth often dart things into my mind C. How know you that Do you take every thing that comes into your head you know not how to be an Irradiation from the Holy Ghost N.C. No I dare not say so C. Then you examine it and consider whether it be rational and coherent or no. N.C. Yes C. Then you fall into our way whether you will or no. And whatsoever you think of us we do not deny but God's good Spirit puts good thoughts oft-times in our minds and represents things more clearly to us than we could make them by all our reasonings which is as much as to say that it lets us see the reasonableness and aptness of such a Sense for instance of the Divine Writings as we discerned not before N.C. Well I am glad to hear you speak so much of the Spirit C. You might hear ten times as much if you would but frequent our Assemblies For there we are constantly taught that the very ground and foundation of our Faith in Jesus Christ is the Spirit i.e. the Holy Ghost sent down from Heaven upon our Saviour and his Apostles N.C. You mix so much of Reason with what you say that I am afraid you are not in the right C. You should rather conclude the contrary and not believe any thing but what you have a good reason for N.C. Say you so How then shall I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God Can Reason tell me this C. I am sorry to see you so ill instructed If you had continued to hear our Minister he would have made you understand before this time that though our reason could not find out that Truth yet God hath given us the highest reason to believe it And this I told you is the Spirit the Spirit in Christ and in his Apostles N.C. Pray explain your meaning for I understand not these new Notions C. The Holy Ghost I mean descended on our Saviour at his Baptism with a voice from Heaven saying This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased This is one reason we have to believe on him Then he wrought miracles by the power of this
one What dâ— you think of the Doctrine of Repentance Is theâ— any thing deserves to be more gravely handled or can one ever expect to be pierc'd woundâ— by that Preacher who treating of that argument doth not touch the Soul in a lively manner N. C. I acknowledge it is a most weighty Doctrine but what then C. I 'll tell you I never met with any Treatise in so serious a subject more light and toying than a Book which came lately out of the Press called The Doctrine of Repentance useful for these times by T. W. N. C. You are prejudiced C. I doubt you are and yet I believe I shall make you of my mind Look you here is the book which one lent me What think you of the very beginning of the Epistle to the Reader Faith and Repentance are the two wings by which we fly to Heaven Doth not this look like a School-boyes phrase which he applies to every Subject For at another time T. W. would tell you That Prayer and Meditation are the two wings whereby we fly to Heaven Now as for Repentance he tells you presently it is a Purgative and bids you not fear the working of this Pill That â—oist tears dry up the rheums of sin and quench the â—rath of God N. C. Let the Epistle alone and go into the body of the Book there you will find it more powerful C. Truly I have not read it over but I openâ—d it in several places and I met only with a â—ngle there where I expected a clap of thunâ—er N. C. That 's because you had not a fancy to it C. I assure you I brought an indifferent mind to it being glad if good things be said by any body But I could not but be disgusted when I read this page 16. That holy Sorrow is the Rhularb to purge out the ill humours of the Soul c. N. C. You take little bitts and mind not his continued discourse C. Read then what he saith of an Hypocrite pag. 89.90 and you will think you are reading one of Blunt's Characters if you ever saw that Bâ—ok I expected to have found him cut up and anatomiz'd whereas in truth he doth but stroke hâ—m and play with him For thus he says The Hypocrite is a Saint in jest he makes a majesticck shew like an Ape cloathed in Ermine or Purple The Hypocrite is like an House with a beautiful Frâ—ntispiece but every Room within is dark â—e is a rotten Pâ—st fairly gilded Under his mask of Profession he hides his Plagueâ— sones The Hypocrite is against painting of Faâ—…s but he paintâ— HOliness he is seemingly good that he may be really bâ—d In Samuel 's Mantle he plays the Devil therefore the same word in the Original signifies to use Hypocrisie and to be prophane But at thiâ— present we will let the rest alone and only obsâ—rve how he concludes what he says of him Hypocrites are far gâ—ne with the Rot and if anâ— thing will cure them it must be feeding upon the saâ—… Marshes of Repentance N. C. Why do you look me so in the face C. To see if you did not smile as sure you would do were you not angry with me for laying open this Childishness Nay do not frown I appeal to your Conscience whether you feel any more force in such words as these than in a Feather blown with a great blast against your face or in a Straw trust with a strong arm against your Breast N. C. I cannot commend them but you ought not to examine Books writ with a good intention so severely C. I am far from that humor and have only exercised a little of that liberty which he gives us in the second page of his Epistle where he tells us He thought to have smothered these Meditations in his Desk but conceiving them of great concern at this time he rescinded that first resolution and exposed them to a critical view Now if I had a mind to play the Critick as simple as you think me I could shew you that he ought to have exposed them only to the view of his very good Friends and not to Criticks N. C. That was only a careless word C. Being one of his friends I am willing to believe so else I should have thought it an affectation of a fine expression N. C. I wish you had never seen the Book C. So do I wish too provided no body else had seen it But pray be not troubled nor interpret this as any disrespect to him for I should not have given notice of any of these things to you but that you would needs make Comparisons which are alwayes odious And you may make a good use of this freedom which I take for I perswade my self if you would but compare some of our Books which you despise with this now mention'd you would find there is as much difference between the jingling and rimeing of this and their solid sense as between the noise of a Jews-trump or Bag-pipe and the grave sound of an Organ N. C. But have not your men that quibble and hunt after little Sentences and fine Words like him whom you condemn C. I had no intention to deny that but only to shew that there is trifling every where And therfore that you ought not to be so partially affected to all your own and so unequal to all ours N. C. What 's one to so many as are among you whose Books also are licensed to pass the Press C. To answer the last in the first place I can tell you upon my own knowledge that such simple Books have been rejected and if any of them have chanced to pass you shall seldom find the Preface of some other grave Divine much less of three or four Divines of note set before in commendation of it N. C. Why no more hath that you have been speaking of C. True but no doubt he might have had those Ornaments if he had pleased For I have seen many pitiful Books that have had great Commendations prefixed And as the Dunghil-cocks have the largest Combs so commonly the meanest Books are set off with the largest Praises N. C. I perceive you still persist in your confidence that you know more Books of this nature C. Yes But I do not delight to muster up all the folly that is in Print and therefore shall only take notice of one Book more writ in another way and if you please try whether it deserve the Commendation which the Preface bestows upon it N. C. What Book is that C. It is called Christ and the Covenant c. in ten Sermons by W. B. which pretends to be full of Mysteries and as we are told in the Epistle to the Reader gives us the very marrow and quintessence of the Gospel Upon which account he exhorts us to buy it and makes us believe it is worth any money N. C. And you bought it C. No I did not think it worth any thing when
Condition elsewhere and that without a Condition C. Then it is not Conditional for what iâ— without a Condition is absolute N.C. You would make him speak Nonsense C. Do you try at leisure if you can make good Sense of his words which methinks are not much better than if he had said The Promises are Conditional but without any Condition N.C. Phy Sir they are thus to be taken The Promise is upon a Condition onely that Condition is promised without a Condition C. Now you have mended the matter finely and made it plain that he thinks all the Promises are absolute Which how well it agrees with their being Conditional I pray tell me when you have thought of it at our next meeting N.C. Do not you grant then that God promises the Condition upon performance of which we shall enjoy the Promise without a Condition C. No indeed for it is certainly false He promises for instance Eternal life if we repent and effectually believe and not otherwise Repentance therefore and Faith are the Conditions of that Promise And I affirm that God nowhere promises that any of us do we what we will shall repent and believe But he requires us to consider and lay to heart what is spoken to us by his Son Jesus which is as much as to say that upon this Condition he will work Repentance and Faith in us N.C. He doth so But though the Promise runs conditionally yet he tells us it shall be fulfilled absolutely C. You mean W. B. tells us so and therein confesses he did not speak truly before when he said the Promise was without a Condition for now he acknowledges that it runs conditionally And to say it shall be fulfilled absolutely is to say that it seems to be Conditional but is not N.C. Well methinks there is much of Mystery in what he delivers C. That is you do not understand it but it sounds prettily and so you like it And so I believe you do the next for the same reason wherein he tells you that in the Old Testament they came to Christ by the Promise but now we come to the Promise by Christ N.C. I like it because it seems to carry aâ— great mystery in it C. It may seem so but it doth not N.C. No what do you make of it C. I think it rather carries a plain falsity in it For we come to Christ by the Promise as well as they and they went to the Promise by Christ as well as we N.C. I know not what you mean C. That 's because you know not what he means But if you will understand me thus it is There was a Promise that God would send Christ into the world and the fulfilling of thiâ— Promise is one great reason why we believe it Jesus and so we are led you see to him by the Promise On the other side there were Promises of great things that Christ would do for those that believed on him and those then thaâ— did believe the Messiah would come hoped foâ— the enjoyment of these Promises by his means and so if I may speak in his phrase they went first to Christ and then to the Promise N.C. I do not well apprehend you and therfore thinks it's time to lay aside this Book C. You do discreetly For if you had continued your discourse about it I should have discovered a world of Follies to you N.C. The things of God are Foolishness to the natural man C. These are not the things of God nor the things of a man neither but childish Fancies or as we commoly speak New-nothings N.C. I know they appear so to the natural man N. I do not judge according to meer Nature but by the direction of the Spirit which instructed the Apostles and therefore you apply that Scripture foolishly to me N.C. You use your reason too much C. You have some reason to say so for if I had used it less things had not appeared so â—idiculous N.C. By that time your heart hath lain so long â—-soke in the bloud of Jesus as his hath done we shall hear other language from you C. You are taken I perceive with that new â—hrase in the Epistle to the Reader and only â—ecause it is new else it would seem very irreâ—erent being taken from a Toast in a Pot of â—le or a Sop in a Dripping-pan a great deal more fit for a Preface before a Book of one of those you call Old Sokers then of such a Reverend Author N.C. You are merry Sir C. Truly I do not make my self merry with any mens Sins but at their little foolish Affectatious how can one chuse but smile But could he not as well have said that he had a long time thought of the efficacy and virtue of the Bloud of Christ or that he was much acquainted with the Love of Christ in dying forus Why to say that he had lain long a soke in his blood is as absurd as if he had told us that he had lain long beaking himself in the Beams of the Sun of Righteousness or roasting himself before the Fire of the Divine Love N.C. Pray Neighbour forbear these expressions C. I was only going to shew you that we have as good a faculty as you to coyn new Words Phrases if we would take the liberty But I will forbear if you will but be content upon this occasion to look back with me and consider how all the Nation comes to be overrun with folly N.C. How I pray you C. As soon as you had cast out of doors all that was Old among us if any Fellow did but light upon some new pretty Fancy in Religion or some odd unusual Expression or perhaps some swelling words of Vanity presently he set up for a Preacher and cry'd up himself for a man that had made some new discovery And such was the confidence of these men both in inventing strange Language and proclaiming their great Discoveries every where that the poor people were perswaded the Nation never knew what Communion with God meant till this time Now they thought the happy days were come when the Spirit was powered out the Mysteries of the Gospel unfolded Free grace held forth the Anointings and Sealings of the Spirit vouchsafed Christ advanced to his Throne and when they should have such Incomes in dwellings and I know not how many other fine things as never was the like heard of before For one man comes and tells them of the streamings of Christ 's Blood freely to sinnners another bids them put themselves upon the stream of Free grace without having any foot on their own bottome A third tells them how they must apply Promises absolute Promises A fourth tells them there is a special Mystery in looking at the Testamentalness of Christs Sufferings And because he found that every body had got into their mouths Gospel Truths hidden Treasures and such like words he presented them with Sipps of Sweetness and told them he
you will not come to hear N. C. Their Lawn-sleeves offend us C. And why should you not as well take offence at the White Cap and the Lace which I have often seen under the Black upon your Ministers heads N. C. Any thing becomes a Godly man C. I thought thither would be your retreat But why are not the Bishops Godly too N. C. They do not love and encourage good men C. You still suppose none are good but your selves which is no great token of that Modesty and Humility which we think necessary to make a Godly man But suppose any of them should be so bad as not to countenance the very best among us but rather the worst yet this would be onely the fault of the Men not of the Office N. C. I have often heard that Distinction but I could never love your Logick C. Yes sometimes For you once liked a more subtil Distinction than this and that was between the King 's personal and politick capacity N. C. Pray forbear to scratch those old sores But why do your Bishops oppose all Praying by the Spirit C. I thought you might come to that at last I fansie it is the great quarrel you have with the. N. C. Verily it is C. Then let me assure you the Bishops are the farthest of any men in the world from opposing Praying by the Spirit N. C. You tell me a thing incredible I should come sometimes to hear your Ministers but that they have not the Spirit of Prayer which the Bishops I suppose suppress and keep down all they can C. Belike then you think that to pray by the Spirie and to have a Spirit of Prayer are all one N. C. Why not I know no difference C. Because I am sure ours have a Spirit of Prayer but neither ours nor yours can pray by the Spirit If they could the Bishops would rather suffer Martyrdom than oppose it N. C. I apprehend you not C. Very likely for I see you have been nourished with phrases but understand very little N. C. Pray try if you can make me understand more since it seems you are so skilful C. Hear me quietly then and I will tell you what I have learn'd For my skill is onely borrow'd from such good men as our Parish Priest whom you I doubt sometime deride and scornfully call by that name N. C. I am in no passion speak your mind C. Tell me then when a man reverently addresses himself to God seriously acknowledges his Authority over all his Power Wisdom and Goodness professes to depend upon him intirely dreads his Displeasure waits upon him for his grace and favour hungers and thirsts after Righteousness and devoutly renders his Thanks to the Possessor of Heaven and Earth for all his benefits hath he the Spirit of Prayer or no N. C. I cannot say but he hath if his heart go along with his lips C. Then our Ministers have the Spirit of Prayer for in all appearance and as far as we can judge they have an inward sense of these things when they pray And as for their words and gestures they are generally more reverent and becoming than yours N. C. Methinks you should not be of that mind C. Truly I have heard such bold and sometimes rude things spoken by some of yours in Prayer that I could not think they had any sense and feeling of God at all at that time Their Gestures also were ridiculous Nay I have seen some of them look about upon the people to see I suppose how they were affected when they should have turn'd their eyes toward Heaven Which was an argument to me they had something else in their mind then more than God N. C. Then it seems you hear them sometimes C. Not now But I have heard them heretofore when they preached in our Churches N. C. O! but if you could hear them now you would say they are full of the Spirit C. Because they pour out such abundance of words N. C. No but they are more earnest than ever and they plead with God after a more effectual manner C. You call Loudness of speech Earnestness which I always took to be the ardent desire of our Souls after that good which we humbly beg of God And as for their pleading with God I think it is rather sauciness N. C. Now you are bitter C. If I thought so I should condemn my self as much as you can do for I have learn'd that we ought to put away all wrath bitterness clamour and evil speaking Nay if I thought I had done amiss I would ask forgiveness not onely from God but from you too N. C. That is a good mind But why dâ—d you use such an harsh expression Is it not one of Jobs words Job 16.21 C. Yes but not in your sense For he would willingly have maintained his innocency and have had his Case argued that he might make it appear he was not so guilty as his friends made him Which is nothing to your purpose who I suppose do not intend though you call Jesus Christ a Days-man between God and us to stand upon your defence and justifie your selves before him This you think too great a boldness do you not N. C. Yes C. Why then may I not call it a Sauciness in you to do a great deal more I mean to question God so much as you are wont and to ask him over and over again what 's the reason he doth not this or that and why he suffers you to be so and so and how he can deny you this or the other thing N. C. Doth not David sometimes ask questions C. Yes in a great agony of spirit and upon some great occasion which will not warrant you to take this unheard of boldness So I call it because things done in imitation of others when we are not in that condition and have not that occasion and that spirit also which they had are very fulsome no better than the motions of a Monkey when he imitates a man To do those things also commonly which those great men did now and then is monstrously unbeseeming Besides his Psalms are pieces of Divine Poetry in which Passions are wont to be expressed much otherwise than they ought to do in plain and familiar speech And yet you not onely venture to use their Figures of speech but you go beyond them Like a man that having light upon a good Figure in Rhetorick will never have done with it but is always touching upon it Then which nothing can be more absurd especially if he heap a great many of these Figures together as your manner is asking God over and over again as I said why he doth not this or that and when he will do it Besides that which in a great agony as I said is very decent to be spoken doth not befit a man's mouth at another time but they that go about to imitate it do a thing unnatural And the truth is you
not know them perhaps you would admire them above most of your own N. C. Then I should conclude they had the Gift of Prayer but suppress it C. So they have but it is both in you and us onely a Natural gift or acquir'd by Exercise and Practise and Imitation N. C. Now you speak prophanely C. I speak the sense of the soberest of your own Party as I verily believe who would say the same if they durst but deal plainly with you And as simple as I am I dare undertake to justifie the truth of what I say against any of them if they have the face to contradict it N. C. I see you leave the Spirit of God nothing to do in our Prayers C. Would you would see how you forget your self Did I not tell you what the Spirit of Prayer was how that God bestows it upon us when he gives us a sense of himself and of our needs and stirs up in us holy desires and passionate longings after his Righteousness which we should express in such words as are becoming that Majesty with whom we have to do And this is the reason that we take care to chuse our words and not leave them to extemporary invention especially in the publick Service of God N. C. Do you think they will ever want Words whose hearts are full of Desires or can great Affections ever fail to furnish us with plenty of Language C. Yes that they may For all experience tells us that very great and high Affections are too big for Words and make a man at a stand for want of Expressions which no man sure will think a seemly thing in a publick Congregation And the passions of Admiration and Reverence of God restrain a mans forwardness of speaking to him and make him like a few words best which he is not then in a fit case to invent Aâ— for lesser Affections and superficial Heats I grant they seldom let a man want words if he have tolerable Parts and make him speak more readily than he would do at another time yet they are not able ever to furnish him with those that are fit proper and decent Which methinks should make you not quarrel with a sober form of words at least in our publick Devotions N. C. Would you could perswade me that a Form of words is lawful to be used it would go a great way to perswade me to come to your Church C. Strange that you should be so inapprehensive It is so lawful to use a Form of words that I have shewn you it is in a sort necessary that is we can have no security that the Service of God will always be performed well without one N.C. I confess I do not yet apprehend you C. Observe then I say the best of men though their hearts be full of good desires may from some cause or other want such words as are fit and proper to express their meaning In this case they must hack in an unseemly manner or make a stop or use such words as are too rude and slovenly or speak broken and imperfect language or at the best such as is too hard and obscure and unintelligible by the Vulgar None of which things are to be permitted in the publick Worship which ought to be performed with the greatest solemnity and gravity And therefore to prevent that Undecency and secure the Service of God from all that is unhandsome you must consent to a prescribed Form of words wherein men shall address their humble and hearty Desires to him For though some men at some times may pray well enough yet other men and the same men at other times may be very confused and full of Tautologies and it 's well if they endeavour not to supply these defects with rude Clamours brutish Noises and a deal of the Holy Scriptures wofully misapplied Beside how can you persuade any strangers to be of our Church or to hold any Communion with us if they do not know how we worship God And how should they know that unless you can produce something which by a general consent is own'd for his Service This no doubt is one reason why all Churches in the world have had their publick Forms of Prayer that they may let every body know how God is served by them and why the best men in Reformed Churches have wished those happy days might come of amity and friendship that they might by a Common Counsel and Consent form a certain Liturgy which might be as a Symbol and Bond of Concord among them all And truly I cannot advise how your Ministers can justifie themselves in separating now from all the Reformed Churches as well as ours with whom they covenanted to maintain an Uniformity not onely in Doctrine and Discipline but Worship also To me they seem to live in an open breach of one branch of that Covenant of which they are so tender For they do not endeavour in their place and calling to reform according to the example of those Churches N. C. What should they reform now they have no power C. Themselves and their Congregations which they take the boldness to gather who ought to serve God according to the Covenant after the example of the best Reformed Churches all of which have an Order and Form of Prayer and never imagin'd that those written Forms did bind up and stint the Spirit This is a peculiar phansie of your own who have no Form at all in any of your Conventicles or Meetings though it is in the power of your Ministers to have one as well as to hold such Meetings and though they be bound by their League and Covenant to do their endeavor to imitate those that have Nay I much question whether they use the Lord's Prayer They that do I believe have the least company such is the prejudice which they contrary to their Covenant have sowen in peoples minds against Forms of Prayer even that of the Lord's Which thing considered it makes me astonish'd at your impudence in pretending such niceness of Conscience and fear to break your Covenant when you break it every time you meet together without some Form of Divine Service N. C. They onely covenanted to reform this Church of England according to the example of the best Reformed Churches which they cannot do C. Onely do you say Is that a less thing then to reform a particular Congregation Methinks they should think themselves obliged to do what they can when they cannot do what they would and to do that in a part which they cannot do in the whole that is bring in some Form of Prayer into your Churches for so no doubt you esteem them N. C. I do not think they can if they would C. Why N.C. Because most of us think Forms unlawfull C. That 's their fault who either taught you to believe so heretofore or do not instruct you now to believe otherwise Though it were a very casie thing for them to do
and the Ceremonies when they know in their Consciences they are not sinful And then to hear you call it Bibble-babble Porridge or such like vile names without any reproof is still worse But if you hear themselves speak against the Common Prayer and the Ceremonies there is the greater reason to have a vehement suspicion of their Dishonesty because they decry that which in their Consciences they allow N.C. I am not fully satisfied of that C. Why did many of them deliberate so long whether they should accept of Dignities in the Church if they did not believe it lawful to hear the Prayers and to put even the Babylonish Garment as you will needs call the Surplice upon their backs and more than that to wear the very Rags of the Whore the Lawn sleeves If it was so plain a business that their Conscience and their Covenant would not let them conform one would think they should have professed it openly without any more ado And therefore I conclude that Pause and Deliberation was about something else not about matters of Conscience but of Interest and Policy As Whether the people would take it well and not laught at them as so many Magpies got upon a Perch whether it would not be a scandalous thing that is not for their Credit and Reputation whether they could not hold such a Party with them in Non-conformity as would balance the Episcopal and so force them at least to a Toleration In short whether they should not lose the Affections of their own party which they had already made and win very little upon the Affections of others whom they had so much disobliged in the late Troubles These were their secret Debates in their Cabals the weighty Points that were to be stated in those Consultations You Good man think perhaps that they spent their time in Fasting and Seeking God to direct their Consciences No no it was not their Conscience but their Credit which then lay at stake N.C. Why should you think so C. Because I have heard some of them acknowledge they did not scruple what we do but thought it unhandsom for them to do it Sometimes they put it in a more Religious phrase and said it would give a great scandal to the world who would think the worse of the Profession of Christianity But the meaning was in plain English that they were ashamed to confess their Error and to set up those things again which they had rashly pulled down N.C. And would you not have men to consult their Credit C. Yes but not so much as the peace of the Church of God We ought to deny our selves and be content to be put to shame for God's sake which is indeed true Glory and there is little of God among them that seek not Peace though on those terms Besides there can no account be given of their Behavior since in cherishing this Fancy among you or suffering it to grow that Conformity is unlawful unless it be this that they think it will make more for their Reputation among you if you believe it was Conscience not care of their own Credit Estimation that kept them from Conforming N.C. You are the severest man that ever I knew and love to search too far into the reason of things C. Would you would do so too for then you would soon be of my mind N.C. No not as long as one Scruple remains in my mind C. What 's that N. C. I have heard some of them call yours Will-worship which the Apostle condemns Col. 2. ult C. Very likely they might and not understand what they said N.C. Do you believe they would like brute Beasts speak evill of things they know not C. I will not censure them of that but this I can tell you that one of your Ministers confessed to a sober person of my acquaintance that he had never so much as read over the Common-Prayer-book in all his life and yet he was no Youngster Perhaps there may be more such and then if they speak against it judge of them as you see Cause N. C. I believe such men dislike it without looking into it because as I told you it is Will-Worship a meer invention of man C. That 's a word of S. Paul whom no doubt they have read but I question whether they understood him N. C. Why should you doubt it C. Because if we take the sense of the Word not from Fancy but from the matter wherewith it is connected it makes nothing for your purpose but rather much against you N. C. Can you tell better than they C. I do not say so but I have heard one of our Ministers give such an Explication of the place as satisfied me that you use a Weapon which wounds your selves N. C. Let 's hear it C. If you look a little back you will find the Apostle forbids Worshipping of Angels v. 18. as a bold invention of men for which there was no Revelation And then he speaks against such superstitious people whether Jews or others the minister could not tell us as made it unlawful to Marry to eat some kind of Meats to touch or come near some things none of which God hath made sinful but they were the meer Commandments of men v. 21.22 Now those that were of this Humour he immediately after v. 23. charges with Will-Worship Which must consist therefore one would think in these two things First In giving the Worship due to God to some Creature or other Secondly in enjoyning that as a thing necessary and commanded by God as a piece of his VVorship and Service which he hath left indifferent or in other words when any thing is so enjoyned to be done or not done as if it were the Will Command of God he should be so served when it is a meer Constitution of the Will of Man then a Will-Worship is erected Now I am sure you will not make us guilty of the First fort of Will-Worship because none are more against it than we As for the Second our Church hath declared to all the World that none of the things you boggle at are imposed under the Notion of Necessary or Religious in themselves or as commanded by God but are of an indifferent Nature and only used as decent and comely in the judgment of the present Governors who can alter these things and constitute something else in the room if they see it fit which they could not pretend to did they think them necessary But then as our Church is not guilty of Will-Worship in the Apostles Sense so on the other side I know not how to excuse those from that very guilt who oppose what is ordained among us as unlawful and forbid us to use those Rites and Orders because sinful things For they make that necessary to be forborn and left undone which God hath not made so but left indifferent and so they in effect condemn those as Sinners whom God acquits from
Service N. C. What part should that be C. The Entrance or Beginning of his Prayer When he speaks very slow as if he was studying what to say and draws out his words with a low Voice and with a small degree of Vehemence and little or no Motion then I say I believe your Affections are low too and you feel not your heart much moved But when his Voice begins to rise especially if he lift it up on a sudden and it break out like a Clap of Thunder and when he speaks more fluently his Zeal begins to kindle and he lays about him and is full of life as you call it that is uses a great deal of Action then is the time if the truth were known that your Affections stir and begin to rise from the bottom of your Heart where they lay heavy and dull before Then you sigh and groan and perhaps weep and are put into many Passions which lay quiet enough till his Breath blew lowder Is not this the plain truth N. C. What then C. Then you are no more affected with the Prayers of your Minister as they are pious Petitions or Acknowledgments of God than you are with our Common-Prayer But only with the Voice the Vehemency the Action the pretty Fancies and fine Phrases which perhaps he lights upon when he is a little heated which were it my case 't would make me suspect the Love of God was not in me For why should he think he loves God who is not moved with Affection to him when he hears his Greatness Goodness Wisdom and Benefits to us soberly and gravely expressed but is in a great Commotion when he meets with a new Word that pleases him or a kind Phrase or melting Tone a sweet Voice or some such thing N. C. I hope it is something else that affects me C. If it be then pray tell me why should not the Common-Prayer affect you whose sense is good enough only it is not varied and dressed up in new words every day I beseech you try your Heart by examining the Book considering whether those very things be not requested of God there which you desire in your Prayers and if they be then demand of your self a Reason why they move you no more I doubt you will find it is because they are not new but old Expressions N. C. I will consider of it at leisure C. To help you a little take this along with you which will go near to convince you that if it be not the Voice and Tone it is the Novelty which affects you Suppose one of the Prayers of your own Ministers which you think is indicted by the Spirit was taken in short-hand writing and afterward used every day in the Service of God as often as our Prayers are Tell me seriously do you not think it would seem very flat at last fuller of nauceous Repetitions and faulty Expressions than you conceive to be in the Common-Prayer N. C. You put a hard Question to me C. I see you are inclined to be of my mind and therefore pray consider these two things First That since even a Prayer which you think so heavenly would not affect you alway if it were alway used it is to be feared you are moved only while Prayers are new and indeed because they are new not because they are good pious Petitions And Secondly that since it is convenient if not necessary to have a Form of Prayer in the Church and the Common-Prayer hath no other Imperfection but what those whom you so much admire would have were they constantly used as it is why should you not like it as well as any especially since it is established by publick Authority N. C. I will consider of it as I said before But I wish you had seen a Book as I perceive you have many of ours newly come out which supposes your Service-Book hath been abused to Superstition and Idolatry and therefore must be abolish'd C. He doth well to suppose it and not to undertake the proof of it What is the name of the Book N. C. Nehushtan C. I have had a short sight of it as it creeps up and down privately N. C. What do you think of it C. I will tell you first what I think of you N. C. Why what is the matter C. You seem to be in a most dangerous condition for you are infected as I told you already with the extravagant Fancies of a number of other Sects with whom you are blended And in all likelihood you will have such new Inventions or rather Frenzies every year as will at last destroy your selves as well as us Some of your Ministers for instance acknowledg that the Liturgy is lawful to be used and can read it themselves Others there are that think it lawful but not convenient for men of their Parts and Gifts whose Ministry which it seems is of great Necessity Benefit they conceive would be thereby rendred less useful Then there is a third sort who are gone farther and doubt of its Lawfulness So that they dare not be present at it though they are content others should who think it lawful And now here is a man thinks no body ought to hear it nor be suffered to use such a Form of Worship but though the Magistrate ought to tolerate you yet he ought not to tolerate us For he saith It is his Duty utterly to extirpate the Liturgy as well as the Ceremonies And every one of you in your places ought to do your parts towards the abolishing of it and not sit still in the midst of such Defilements and Snares but discover your hatred of them decline their use and in such ways as Prudence Justice and Order do allow Endeavour the rooting of them out Whether you will go next God only knows And God help the poor Children of the Church of England who when all so boldly challenge Liberty and Toleration must be the only Persons excluded from this Favour and according to this Gentleman be denied the use of the Common-Prayer when every body else may pray what he list N. C. You must be content if he have Evinced as he tells us he hath in his Title page That the Liturgy Ceremonies and other things used at this day in the Church of England ought neither to be imposed nor retained but utterly extirpated and laid aside And he pretends in his Epistle to have said more in this Argument than ever was said before C. He doth so and imagins he can weild an old rotten Engine that hath been long laid aside better than former Workmen who were but Bunglers in compare with this Artist For he doubts not to manage it so as to throw down the whole Fabrick of the English Church N. C. What Engine do you mean C. It is this Principle That it is the will and pleasure of God that such things as have been abused and polluted in Superstitions and Idolatrous Services should