and natural Inferences from your Doctrine and if you would speak out you must own it As a Divine of our Church once did when being exhorted by a Person of Quality to give God thanks for his good Providence in raising him to such a Preserment replied to this purpose Providence saith he thank my Money and my Friends for without these I had gone without it for all Providence Are not these trusty Lads to their Subscriptions of the Articles Tim. Enough of this Sir I have done Let us go on to the next Artic. 2. The Son which is the Word of the Father begotten from everlasting of the Father the very and Eternal God of one substance with the Father took mans nature in the Womb of the blessed Virgin of her substance so that two whole and perfect Natures that is to say the Godhead and Manhood were joyned together in one person never to be divided whereof is one Christ very God and very man who truly suffered was crucified dead and buried to reconcile his Father to us and to be a sacrifice not only for Original guilt but also for actual sins of men Tit. This is another Article you and I have subscribed to and profess to own and have promised to maintain Tim. And good reason for I see nothing in it but what is sound and Orthodox and he deserves not the name of a Christian that says otherwise Tit. I am of your mind yet I fear you have cracked some part of it in your elaborate discourses ex tempore To try you I will only crave your Opinion of one little branch of it What think you of Original Sin Tim. I take it to be only a privation of Original Righteousness Tit. Now I know whereabouts you are You are one of those subtil Gentlemen who subscribe the Articles of the Church of England and when you have done preach the Doctrines of the Church of Rome and Canons of the Council of Trent This is very pretty a Popish Priest may do as much Council of Trent Sess 3. Can. 6. But we will debate farther on this in its proper place under Artic. 9. which speaks as plain English in this point as ever Article did Go on therefore to the next Artic. 3. Tim. As Christ died for us and was buried so also it is to be believed that he went down into Hell Tit. Here is something in this Article will take up a little more of our time than ordinary because it is a matter of weight and what I know you and I much differ in Tim. What can that be 't is all mighty plain to me Tit. No doubt since you never read it before but when you have considered it as oft and throughly as I have done perhaps you may hesitate as well as I in what sense we are to take the latter part of it viz. So also it is to be believed that he went down into Hell Pray what is your sense of it and how do you teach people to understand it Tim. That Christ did personally and locally go down into Hell that is into the place or state of the damned to suffer there to conquer and overcome the Devils in their place of residency and to free those Souls that were detained in Hell till Christ's descension thither Tit. I know some of the Ancients and all the Papists are of this opinion yet I confess 't is not clear to me nor do I find any reason to think our Church intends this sense in her Article And if you will have patience with me I shall give you my Reasons for it Tim. I will exercise what patience I can but pray be brief Tit. As brief as the weight of the matter will give me leave To explain the Terms of the Article a little He went down or descended To descend is properly to to go down by bodily motion from an higher place to a lower But in a borrowed sense or speech it signifies a change of state from better to worse from greater to meaner as Isa 47.1 Come down or descend and sit in the dust O virgin daughter of Babylon into Hell The word here Englished Hell in the Hebrew is Sheol in Greek 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 And this I find is taken four ways in Scripture For the grave or place of the dead 1 King 2.6 For the power of death or state of the dead appointed to all men good and bad as Psal 89.48 For extreme humiliation or abasement or such sorrow and pains as may be compared to hellish sufferings 1 Sam. 2.6 Psal 18.5 and for the place and state of the damned Luke 16.23 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and when he was in Hell Now in which of these senses do you take it Tim. In the last as without doubt our Church intends it Tit. That is not in any or all the three first viz. the grave the power of death or extreme abasement and hellish sufferings but in the last namely that Christ descended into the place of the damned suffered in the same flames wherein the rich man cries out he was tormented and wherein the Devils themselves and damned Spirits have suffered do and shall suffer for ever Tim. Yes I believe so and shall never believe otherwise Tit. Perhaps you may when you have heard what I have to ofter to the contrary which now follows 1. It is not clearly recorded as all other parts of our Belief are in Holy Scripture that Christ did locally and personally descend into the place and state of the damned For the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 taken in this sense occurs but once in all the New Testament viz. Luk. 16.23 which is not spoken of Jesus but of Dives Nor doth the word there signifie the place of the damned from the force or propriety of it but from the circumstances which are there noted For Dives is not simply said to be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in inferno seu Gebenna but in torments and flames Moreover the Evangelists who have professedly delivered to us the whole History of our Saviour from his Incarnation to his Ascension have not made the least mention of his descention into Hell in this sense Tim. Surely you are mistaken Tit. Discover where And I cannot conceive they would have omitted it had Christ done it or had it been necessary to salvation to believe it Particularly St. Luke writes nothing of it in his Gospel in his Preface to which he tells Theophilus That he would write to him in order of all those things where of he had perfect understanding Luk. 1.3 And St. Paul rehearsing certain chief Heads which he had preached to his Corinthians mentions the Death Burial and Resurrection of Christ but not his local descension to the state and place of the damned which had been a fit place and opportunity to have inserted it yet affirms he had preached what would suffice to salvation if they were not wanting to themselves 1 Cor. 15.1 to 5. Tim.
You begin to shake me when I thought I had been invincibly setled and unconquerable you give me soft words but hard Arguments have you any more behind for I think long till this combat is ended Tit. Yes 2. I say further that if Christ descended to the place or seat of the damned it was either in his soul which the Scripture testifies went the day or moment of his Death into Paradise Luke 23.43 a place of Joy not torment and in the same Chapter he saith himself He commended his soul into the hand of his father in the same sense no doubt that St. Stephen did after his example Or else in his Body which we are assured by the same Infallible Spirit was in the grave till the third day the day of his Resurrection Mat. 12.40 Or else in his Godhead but to attribute descension to the Godhead is improper which is in all places at one and the same time nor is the Godhead subject to passion How then did he descend Tim. Nay I cannot particularize them but surely it was necessary he should do so Tit. Doubtless then it was done for Christ omitted nothing necessary to be done or suffered in order to the great redemption he was sent to accomplish But as the Scripture doth not clearly affirm it so to me it seems not of absolute necessity in order to our redemption that our surety should descend to the place of the damned and suffer there Tim. What are your reasons for this opinion Tit. Because the place of suffering is but a circumstance Hell the place of the damned is no part of the debt Christ was to pay nor suffering there locally any part of payment that we read of in the Gospel As the surety may satisfie the creditor in any place appointed for payment or in open Court which being done the debtor and surety are both acquitted and need not go to Prison If they be cast into Prison 't is because they do not pay the debt for all that Justice requires is the payment of the debt to which the Prison is meerly extrinsecal So the Justice of God cannot be satisfied for the transgression of his law but by the death of the sinner Now it doth not require that this be done or this satisfaction be made in Prison or in the place of the damned for the wicked go thither because they cannot pay the debt or make satisfaction But our surety Jesus Christ who undertook the debt for us hath made such full satisfaction on the Cross that himself said just before he gave up the Ghost Consummatum est the work was finished And the Apostles so understood Christ which made them ascribe all to his suffering or to the merit of his sufferings on the Cross as spoiling of principalities and powers by which is meant the power of darkness the Devils Col. 2.15 and the blotting out the hand-writing that was against us Col. 2.14 our reconciliation to God Col. 1.20 and tell us that he is able now to render us unblameable and unreproveable in the sight of God Col 22. Having by that offering of himself for ever perfected them that are sanctified Heb. 10.14 And if God is satisfied Mans Redemption perfected and Believers perfected by his Death I can see no necessity of the following descension into Hell Tim. This is all very rational and convincing But what makes you think that our Church doth not understand it of a local descension and require the belief of it as necessary to Salvation Tit. Two things have raised in me such an opinion viz. 1. Because she doth not here nor any where else that I can find give any such sense or interpretation of the words which were a very dangerous omission if the belief of it were necessary to salvation And 2. Because in her 8th Article where she mentions the 3. Creeds which she affirms agreeable to Scripture viz. the Apostles the Athanasian and Nicene Creed which she not only allows but enjoyns the use of in her Liturgy or publick Service hath in the last of these left the descention of Christ into Hell wholly out which she certainly would not have omitted but have inserted it here as well as in the Athanasian had she thought the belief of it necessary to salvation or designed to bind us to the belief of it for this were to render that Creed imperfect which she allows as perfect and according to Scripture Tim. Really my Stomach begins to turn at a local descention yet ere you can work a full Conversion you must Answer an Objection or two which I have swimming in my Noddle against what you have said Tit. Out with them Tim. and I 'le do the best I can to cleanse thy Stomach and Head too the latter being I fear as much oppressed with ill Notions as the former is with ill Humours Tim. My first Objection is this The Terrours and Torments which Christ Suffered in his Soul upon the Cross went before his Burial but his descention into Hell follows it in our Creed and Article therefore his descention in Hell concerns not these Torments Tit. Cunningly offered this discovers thee either Knave or Fool in Logick which you like best for the Minor of this Syllogism is faulty alledging Non Causa pro Causa or that for a Cause which is none For know 1. In the Creed our Saviours Descention into Hell is put after his Burial as an Illustration of what went before touching his Sufferings or Passion least any thing should be detracted from it and not that it was performed after it As if it had been said He not only suffered in Body and Dyed and was laid in the Grave but also suffered extream Tortures Hellish Torments in his Soul too such as made him cry-out on the Cross My God my God why hast thou forsaken me 2. And if you observe it Tim. you will find all along in the Creed a Procession in the Passion of our Lord from a lesser to a greater Suffering from the grief and pains of his Body to those of his Soul That he did suffer in his Soul greatly himself Affirms and we all believe Now where in all the Creed can you find any thing that may express his Soul-sufferings if not these Words He descended into Hell He suffered under Pontius Pilate was Crucified dead and buried is all which all might be and he suffer in his body only and this the Thieves suffered which were Crucified with him But his Descending into Hell implys somewhat more viz. Suffering in his Soul which is all the Judicious and Learned Hamon saith on that Text Ham. Act. 2.27 Thou wilt not leave my Soul in Hell And it is therefore put last or mentioned after his Death and Burial to shew that it was the greatest and sharpest part of Christs Sufferings 3. Moreover for the order of expressing it I meet with the very same Luke 16.23 The rich man dyed and was buried and when he was in
Hell c. No doubt his Soul was in Hell before his Body was in the Grave and yet his Burial is put first by our Saviour and his Soul-sufferings afterwards as being onely a higher and farther degree of Misery So in the Creed it is said or in the Article Christ was Dead Buried and descended into Hell or suffered in his Soul Hellish Torments as the sense of Gods Wrath the loss of Gods sight and presence for a time due for our Sins Not that his Death was before his Sufferings in his Soul but these are mentioned last as being the greatest far greater than the Death of the Body and the highest degree of Christs Passion and Humiliation And to Conclude otherwise as that Christ could not or did not suffer in his Soul these Hellish Torments before his Death or Burial because mentioned after both is all one as if you should infer that never any went to Hell before they were Buried because it is said in that fore-mentioned Text That the Rich man Died was Buried and when he was in Hell c. which were a gross Error and contrary to Scripture Nay then it will follow that the Soul cannot go to Hell so long as the Body remains unburied an inference so absurd that a man of any Reason or Religion will neither make nor own it What say you Tim. are we over this stile Tim. Pretty well Thanks to you for the good lift you gave me but there is another yet behind as hard to clamber as the former at which I doubt we shall both stick Tit. Never fear it man I 'le heave with both hands but I 'le have you over now we are come thus far What is it Tim. Seeing these words He Descended into Hell are so dubious and have caused such a Controversie why are they not wholly left out of our Articles and Creed Tit. I see you were more afraid than hurt for your frightful Objection is dwindled into a little Question this Bar is so low you may almost go over without help were you not so very weak However that I may not leave you behind know first that every thing that is a Controversie is not an Heresie either in matter of Doctrine or Faith and therefore not presently to be Expunged out of our Creed And since it hath been received by the Church in all Ages since the Fourth Century as Bellarm. tells us and being rightly understood contains in it a truth according to godliness yea necessary to be believed unto Salvation as the Sufferings of Christ in his Soul and continuing in the state of the Dead for a time I say it being so antient and rightly understood so necessary we may not leave it out but retain it to the Edification of our Faith and Consolation of our Souls Secondly If because there hath been some difference or dispute about the meaning of this Phrase in our Creed or Articles we should presently abandon it by the same Rule we must expunge many Texts of Scripture out of our Bible as those that concern the Doctrine of Election and Reprobation Free-will Falling away from Grace c. Controverted by Learned men on both sides and of different Perswasions This is no Rule for putting out of the Articles of our Faith therefore barely because Controversies have risen about the meaning and sense of it But I have been too prolix already therefore let us dismiss this Point Tim. No I am so well satisfied that I must entreat you to give me the Sum of what you said as brief as you can for my Memory is very short and I would fain retain somewhat if Possible Tit. The short then is this There are I say these two different senses of these words He Descended into Hell Which is the Opinion of some of the Antients and all the Papists Some thereby understand literally a Local Descension into the Place or State of the Damned to conquer the Devils and so set free those Souls that were kept in Hell till Christs Descension Others understand no more than a further degree of Humiliation then his Death and Burial Namely the continuing under the Power of Death for a time or of the Sufferings in his Soul on the Cross whereon our Blessed Saviour was humbled usque ad Inferni tremenda tormenta or endured for a time those Torments Quae reprobi in aeternum sensuri sunt Which the wicked shall Eternally suffer in Hell As the loss of the sense of Gods favour This is the Opinion of some Fathers and most of our Modern Reformed fines the Malediction or Wrath of God in his Soul which is Hell or that Fire which shall never be quenched In which Christ himself for a time was scorched for our Sins And therefore may truly enough be said To Descend into Hell These Brother Tim. are the two senses which of these now do you apprehend the most agreeable to Scripture and the Analogy of Faith Tim. The latter clearly Tit. Then we have done with this your satisfaction being all I aim at in this Discourse Tim. No there is one little Question more comes into my mind though I question whether you can Answer it Tit. It may be not for you know the Proverb Tim. But let 's hear it Tim. Why did not our Bishops when by His Majesties Command at his first Return they inspected the Common-Prayer and Corrected some things in it put some gloss upon these words in the Creed that we might not have been in the Dark as to their sense of them which now we are Tit. It had been very easie for them to have done it and why 't was omitted I can give no reason unless it was either because we should not know their Opinion or because it may be they were divided in their Opinions about it Or else that they would not assume the Honour of doing all that was needful to be done of this Nature but leave some things to their Successors among which this may be one And in the next Edition or next Generation God grant the Liturgy and Bishops to stand till then you may expect it Tim. 'T is well Reply'd I will inquire no further Let us proceed Article IV. Christ did truly rise again from Death and took again his body with Flesh Bones and all things appertaining to the perfection of Mans Nature wherewith he Ascended into Heaven and there sitteth until he return to Judge all men at the Last Day Tit. The principal intents of this Article are the Resurrection Ascension of our Saviour with his Coming to Judgment in either of which I confess I cannot charge you nor I hope any one else Tim. No I am sure they cannot the People to whom I have Preached now Two Sundays together can bear me Witness I am found here for I have handled these main Doctrines amongst them though I never knew they were part of the Articles of the Church before Tit. That 's not material to you whether you
not the effects of the Sacraments Tim. Although in the visible Church the evil be ever mingled with the good and sometime the evil have chief authority in the ministration of the VVord and Sacraments yet forasmuch as they do not the same in their own name but in Christs and do minister by his Commission and Authority we may use their Ministry both in hearing the VVord of God and in the receiving of the Sacraments Neither is the effect of Christs Ordinance taken away by their wickedness nor the grace of Gods gifts diminished from such as by faith and rightly do receive the Saeraments ministred unto them which be effectual because of Christs institution and promise although they be ministred by evil men Nevertheless it appertaineth to the Discipline of the Church that enquiry be made of evil Ministers and they be accused by those that have knowledge of their offences and finally being found guilty by just judgement be deposed Tit. your opinion of this Tim Tim. I have a very good opinion of it as of any I have yet read Tit. But if I mistake not there is that in the close of it toucheth your copy-hold Tim. What is that Tit. 'T is this nevertheless it appertaineth to the Discipline of the Church that enquiry be made of evil Ministers and that they be accused by those that have knowledge of their offneces and finally being found guilty by just judgment be deposed Can you heartily consent to this Tim. Yes why not Tit. Here is no body present but our selves therefore I will be plain with you and tell you the ground of my Question Were you not long since presented and accused to your Diocesan by the Church wardens of the Parish where you officiate Tim. Yes there was a Puritanical Fanatical Church-warden did present me like a splenetick Knave as he was Tit. But pray what was your Crime Tim. A small matter onely sitting up too late and playing the Good-fellow a little too much one Saturday night being to administer the Sacrament the next morning and the Rascal told his Lordship 't was a thing frequent with me so to do Tit. And what did the Bishop say to you Tim. He gave me a grave Admonition and told me if that wrought not upon me Suspension should follow Tit. He spake like himself yet if he had done it as well as said it it might have been better for I don't hear that his Fatherly Admonition hath wrought in you the least reformation What you did before I am credibly inform'd you do still nay that you mend as sowr Ale in Summer insomuch that the far greater part of the Parish are so scandalized at you that they resolve never to receive the Sacrament at your hands more Tim. 'T is a sign they are a company of nice squeemish Ideots and know nothing else they would understand that neither my Vices nor my Vertues signifie any thing to them in my Preaching the Word or Administring the Sacrament Tit. Then whether you are holy or wicked sober or disorderly in your Life it must be the same thing to the People Tim. Yes must and is in this Case for doth not this Article say That he that ministers doth the same not in his own name but in Christs and by his Commission and Authority And that the effect of Christs Ordinance is not taken away by his viz. the Ministers wickedness nor the Grace of Gods Gifts diminished from such as by saith do rightly receive the Sacraments ministred unto them Tit. True these are the Words of the Article and they contain a great Truth Should a faithless wicked man receive the Sacrament at the hands of the holiest man living the Holiness of him that administers would nothing avail such an unworthy Receiver so the contrary But our Church never intended this as an encouragement to Profaneness in her Ministers as she plainly declares by the close of the Article and you make a very ill use of it who shall take such liberty from it Besides Tim. give me leave to tell you that though the ill living of some Ministers and their slight and irreverent Administration of the Holy Sacrament cannot obstruct the Grace of God towards a worthy Receiver yet this is a shrewd bar to keep off sober and serious Persons from that Ordinance especially in those Places where they must receive from the hands of such Ministers or not receive it at all For what Person that hath any sense of God and Religion and the weight of that sacred Ordinance upon his mind though he strives what he can to conquer all prejudices of this kind can receive the Elements at the hands of a profligate and irreverent Minister with that satisfaction that he can at the hands of one who by his heavenly Life and exemplary Devotion in the Sacrament shall excite and quicken the Zeal and Devotion of all that are to partake with him No let me discharge my Conscience this once I heartily wish and pray that those Reverend Fathers who have the Discipline of the Church would narrowly inspect the Lives and Manners of such Persons in the Church as you are who by your disorderly Conversations and slight irreverent and slovenly Administration of Holy Ordinances I must tell you without flattery are a dishonour to God a scandal to the Gospel a reproach to the Ministry the causers of Division and Faction the Promoters of Atheism and Profaneness and the bane of all true Godliness and Religion 'T is you and such as you that open the mouths of our Enemies that turn the glory of our Church into shame and trample her honour in the dust 'T is you and such as you that make many sick and dying sinners go out of the world without Ghostly Counsel and Absolution the notoriousness of your Crimes raising in them a disgust against you both living and dying and who if any of them miscarry must answer for those Souls Tim. I shall not if they send not for me Tit. But who shall answer for the cause of your not being called at such a time Tim. What you would have Ministers live like Angels Tit. Ministers are called Angels in Scripture and what if I should say they ought to live like Angels for Purity and Holiness I am sure our Saviour propounds to us an higher Pattern when he saith to his Disciples Matth. 5. last Be ye perfect even as your Father which is in Heaven is perfect Tim. But that is impossible Tit. True as to Equality but not as to Imitation St. Paul was not equal with our blessed Lord for Purity and Holiness but he was an imitator of him as himself testifies saying Be ye followers of me as I am of Christ Nor is it impossible for you to consider seriously the weight and dignity of your Calling and to take heed thereto Vid. The Form of Ordering of Priests as you are exhorted by the Bishop at your Ordination which if you do as you ought and