but stained the faith of Christ with reproaches creatures with the Lords honour Gods service with Idolatry Doct. Whitakers in his second controversie of the Church q. 6. cap. 1. adiudgeth the present Romish Church to be nothing else but a deepe pit of heresie and errour and thereby argueth her no wayes to be or to belong vnto the true Church Mr. Perkins in the Preface to his Reformed Catholike saith The whole Religion of the present Romish Church is hereticall and schismaticall and the cup of abomination in the Whores hand Revel 17.4 And Doctor Abbot Bishop of Salisbury in his defence of this place in Mr. Perkins doth iustifie and avow the same thing against bishop the Papist Bishop Careton in his directions to know the true Church prooues at large that the present Romish Church holas not vnitie with the true Church neither in the head nor in the body nor in the spirit nor in the faith If that be true she is all errour her faith is erronious Now I haue proved our Assumption against his exception thereto by the authority of our Church and a cloud of her most learned and renowned children I will make the same good by the testimony of God himselfe But I am prevented in that by Mr. Wotton who hath done it already in his booke called Runne from Rome where he beginnes this poynt pag 14. num 4. whereunto I might refer the Reader as vnto a most pious learned author a worke that admitteth not any reall essentiall or substantiall addition but I will make bold to take out of him so much as belongs to this cause not word for word but so much as will be sutable to the buisinesse First I will set downe how he vnfoldeth the terme and then come to his proofes of the question The word Faith importeth a singular thing vndevided into either members or kindes with warrant from the Apostle who speakes so of it Eph. 4.5 There is one faith saith he one Baptisme one Mediator between God and man 1 Tim. 2.5 In what manner the Mediator is one and Baptisme is one so Faith is once for one phrase of speech is common to them all but they are one without division into members or kinds therefore so is faith The thing it selfe sayes no lesse for this word Faith importeth a coÌ„prehension of many sentences made one body by a common band namely the divine authority For in every article a part and in all of them together we find the same authority which draweth vs to consent to them as true and accordingly the beleefe of one is the beleefe of all the deniall of one the deniall of all Every Engular sentence pronounced by the Church of Rome as a thing revealed by God is in this question the Romish faith An Article of faith is then erronious when it agrees not with the sacred Revelation and this wee say with warrant from the Councell of Trent Sess 14. cap 8. of the necessitie of Satisfaction And afterwards in the Decree touching the Sacrament of pennance Canon 6. And the thing it selfe doth avowe the same for the varying from the rule is the very nature of error therefore every article of faith must needs be erronious that agrees not with Gods word because that word is the rule thereof By it our faith was revealed vnto vs and by the recorde thereof it is reserved for vs. And so much for Mr. Wottons explication We haue his proofe pag 15. nu 6. thus set forth That faith which hath a faâ—se and erronious foundation is false and erronions But the foundation of the Romish saith is false and erronious Therefore the Romish faith is false and erronious In the Proposition two things are taken as granted viz. 1 Faith hath a foundation without it 2 Different foundations causeth different faithes Both of them are cleere and evident therefore they stand not in need of my proofe if the termes be opened they will be out of question By foundation wee meane the next and formall reason why we assent to this or that proposition in Divinity that is why we iudge this predicate to bee truly and rightly attributed to that subiect now this is without the Article it selfe because it is no more but the authority of him that pronounceth the sentence In the second sentence we meane to say Every distinct faith followes the next and formall reason of our beleeving as when wee beleeue this or that report to be true vpon the authority of him that reports it this is humane saith because it followes humane authority and accordingly the faith of Turks and Heathens is accompted humane because the next reason of their beleeving is mans authority accordingly that is Divine faith when we esteeme this or that sentence to be true because God hath pronounced it And thus haue we cleered the Proposition Mr. Wotton prooues the Assumption by these two sentences 1. The foundation of their faith is the authority of the Pastors of their Church No. 7. 2. This foundation of faith is false and erronious No. 10. And this proofe is manifest and without exception if both these sentences be true But they are true he prooues the first num 8. by this argument They that haue the office to determine what is the true faith that is what is revealed what is not revealed their authority is the foundation of faith But the Romish Church that is the Pastors of their Church hath that office Therefore the authority of their Church that is the Pastors of their Church is the foundation of their faith The Proposition needs no reliefe for that office of shewing what is revealed and what is not is the next and formall reason of their beleefe as by their doctrine and practise we shall see hereafter num 8. c. The Assumption needes our helpe as little for every man that is acquainted with their faith knowes that they giue their Church that office yet for further explication I will shew the same by the Councel of Trent Sess 4. praeterea c. saith It is the office of the Church to iudge of the true meaning and sense of the Scriptures By Church they vnderstand the Pastors of the Church and we know it by their practise and the Iudgement of their learned No man inioyeth a share in the voice of deciding Iudgement in any Councel but their Bishops who onely according to them are the Pastors of the Church By Iudging is meant an inforcing power compelling their sentence to be obeyed and received By sense of the Scriptures is vnderstood every Article or sentence of faith for an Article of faith is a sentence held according to the true sense of Gods word By Scriptures they vnderstand every particular sentence contained in the Scriptures for if they meant some places onely there could be no certainty in this decree because they doe not determine the particular places subiected to the Churches sentence and when they subiect the sense of
the Scriptures vnto the Churches Iudgement they would haue vs beleeue that the Church must tell vs which be the Scriptures and which be not else we can haue no divine faith of them for reason tells vs they must haue authority in all points of faith or none at all This decree of the Councel thus vnderstood is followed by all their Divines and Suarez giues it vs in this one sentence A generall Councell in which the Pope is present either in his owne person or by his Legats and confirmed by the Pope is an infallible rule of Faith And this is a matter of Faith De Fide c. Tracta 1. Disp 5. Sect. 7. No. 6. 9. Bellarmine delivereth the selfe same matter in a most ample large manner in divers places in his third booke of Gods word and I will report them in order as they stand and thus he begins Cap. 3. Tota igitur The Church that is the Pope with his Councell of other Pastors is the Iudge of the true sense of the Scriptures in which all Catholikes agree and the Councell of Trent hath it expresly Sess 4. It is committed singularly to Peter and his Successours that they should teach all men what is to be held concerning the doctrine of Faith Cap. 5. Ex his c. The Councels and Popes execute the office of a Iudge committed to them by God a Iudge delivereth his sentence as a thing that necessarily must be followed Cap. 10. Respond aliud est Christians are bound to receiue the doctrine of the Church when it setteth forth the matters of faith and not to doubt whether those things be so or not Cap. 10. sept argumentum Hitherto he setteth forth the matter in grosse and not vnfoulded wherefore we must seeke for that also and we shall finde the same in the said 10. Chapter and first he giveth vs a reason why the Church should haue this office committed to her in these words The Scripture for it selfe needs not the witnesse of men for it is most true in it selfe whether it be vnderstood or not but for our sake it needs the witnesse of the Church because otherwise we are not certaine what bookes are sacred and divine or what is the true and proper meaning Cap. 10. Respondeo Christus Hitherto wee finde these authors concurring with the Councell in the sense aforesaid and thereby our Assumption at num 7. is confirmed wherein we say Their Church that is the Pastors of their Church hath an office to determine which is the true faith that is what is revealed and what is not revealed and we must know that their judgement is not a private opinion but the faith of their Church Suarez saith so expresly in the place alledged and the thing it selfe doth say no lesse of them both for they agree with the Councell and all on their side agree with them none of theirs doe deny what they affirme If any man think not so he must shew the contrary which yet I never found Wherefore we need not doubt of the conclusion wherein we maintaine That their Church is the foundation of their faith being the thing we vndertooke to prooue num 7. Though this be enough to manifest the matter yet I will adde some other proofe from the testimony of their Church to iustifie the same conclusion because I would haue the thing made easie to our vnderstanding as well as proved to be true by force of argument Now Bellarmine doth all this in most plaine and evident manner in the place following The word of God delivered by the Prophets and Apostles is the first foundation of our faith for therefore we beleeve whatsoever we beleeue because God hath revealed it by his Prophets and Apostles but wee adde that besides this first foundation there is another secondary foundation needfull to wit the testimony of the Church for we know not certainly what God hath revealed but by the testimony of the Church Therefore our faith cleaveth to Christ the first truth revealing those mysteries as to the first foundation It cleaves also to Peter that is to the Pope propounding and expounding these mysteries as to a second foundation Cap. 10. Respondeo ad hoc If any man desire to see this precept manifested by practise he does that also after this sort Wee are to know that a Proposition or Article of faith is concluded in such a Syllogisme as this Whatsoever God hath revealed is true But this God hath revealed Therefore this is true Of the first of these Propositions no man makes any question The second is held for certaine truth amongst all Catholiks for it is grounded vpon the testrmony of the Church Cap. 10. Respondeo verbum To conclude I will report another testimony of his whereby the whole frame of this building is brought to perfection and for that end thus he writeth A precept of faith is to be prooued foure wayes 1. By expresse testimony of Scripture with a declaration of the Church 2. By euident deduction out of expresse Scripture with a declaration of the Church being added thereunto 3. Out of Gods word not written by the Apostles but deliuered from hand to hand 4. By eutdent deduction out of the word of God deliuered from hand to hand De Purga lib. 1. cap. 15. Haec sive Neither is this doctrine Bellarmines fancy but it is the Romish faith for it is warranted by the testimony of all the learned in that Church and the Decree of the Trent Councell already recited n. 8. for when it giues the Church the office to Iudge of the sense of the Scriptures it grants that the Scriptures are in being already and therefore that they are the revealers of the Sacred verities and consequently the first foundation of our faith When it subiecteth the sense onely of the Scriptures to the iudgement of the Church it giues the Church authority to propound expound and apply the Scriptures and therefore it makes the Church a second foundation and no more By this time I hope it is evident enough that the authority of the Church is the foundation that is the next and formall reason of their faith and beleeving and that is the thing wee seeke for Now we should prooue that this foundation of their Faith is false and erronious for that is the second thing propounded in this chapter num 7. But I will spare that labour at this time because none of ours as I conceiue will call it into question besides if any do Mr. Wotton in the book recited even now hath made it manifest against all opposers pag. 21. num 5. c. If therefore any man desires to see it I referre him thither because it fitteth not this businesse to transcribe it And thus much may suffice in proofe of our Assumption propounded cap. 3. num 1. CHAP. 5. Defendeth this sentence The Romish faith is erronius BOth our opponents are mightily gravelled with this sentence and all such as hold
out question is of the Church visible More then so God may require vs to come out of Babylon even vs that are not there for such a commaund is no more but to prevent our going thither forasmuch as the same person that is furthest from Babylon in this present estate is there even there already in possibility because the holiest man that liveth liveth in the flesh or humane nature and therfore may he be carried to Babylon because Babylon is heresie or at least includes it and herefie is a fruit of the flesh By this time I hope his whole discourse as well â—hat is to the purpose as what is beside the purpose is fully cleered and satisfied wherein â—hine departed from the liberty of an answerer of loue and desire to satisfie the Reader CHAP. 10. Our Opponent B. his second Argument HE vrgeth vs cap. 9. pag. 37. with a second Argument concluding after this manner That Society which wanteth the nature of a true Church denyes fundamentall truth directly not by consequence But the present Romish Church does not deny fundamentall truth directly but by consequence at the most for the Popes Arithmetick which he vseth in calculating the Articles of faith is not subrstaction but addition Therefore the present Romish Church wanteth not the nature of a true Church The Assumption and conclusion is set downe pag 41. and the title of the Chapter pag 37. The Proposition is wanting In pag. 21 22. he writeth thus Our adversaries in this cause doe bring the deniall of the foundation of faith as a medium to proue the Church of Rome to be no true Church I answere this man hath a faire gift of inventing some while he can finde an adversary that answers another while one that disputes and all is no more but his owne shadow or imagination If he would haue the Reader to thinke otherwise let him name the Authour that thus disputes and the place where we may finde it till then this must goe for false None of ours would dispute so for it presumes that some Articles of faith be fundamentall and some be not and that is false the whole divine revelation conduceth to eternall life and accordingly it is the foundation thereof and consoquently every Article of faith is fundamentall I answere further This reason as it lyeth doth admit many egregious exceptions but because I am willing to interpret him with the vttermost favour I will forbeare to charge him with them He confines fundamentall trueth vnto the being of the Scriptures and Christs comming to saue sinners pag. 19. 20. To deny fundamentall trueth according to him directly is directly to deny that Iesus Christ came into the world to saue sinners as Pagans Turkes and Iewes doe pag. 22. They deny it by consequent which holding it directly maintaine any one assertion whatsoever whereupon the direct deniall thereof may be necessarily concluded Thus the Galatians holding Circumcision did by consequence overthrow salvation by Christ inasmuch as it was impossible that they should stand together pag. 23 24. According vnto this explication this Argument will be freest from exception if it bee framed in these termes CHAP. 11. Of the same Argument new framed THat society which wants the nature of a true Church does in words and professedly deny the Scriptures and Christs comming to saue sinners But the present Romish Church does not in words and professedly deny the Scriptures and Christs comming to saue sinners Therefore the present Romish Church wants not the nature of a true Church His proofes for this Assumption are two the one pag. 126. in these words Offer the fundamentall words to them of the Romish Church and none amongst them will refuse to subscribe vnto them The other is his fifth Argument pag. 59. c To proue the maine question so desirous he is to make shewes of plenty that one shall be divided into two rather then he will be short in number In that he writeth thus In our disputations with them we doe not proue that Christ came to saue sinners but we bring it in proofe against them pag. 62. And this sayes he is A tacite consent of all ours that the Church of Rome does not directly deny the foundation pag. 61. In pag 70. he writeth thus I would gladly see the testimony of but one in estimation for his learning amongst vs that ever affirmed the Church of Rome to deny the foundation of Faith directly The Church of England hath not passed any such sentence vpon her Some of ours touching this matter haue written thus The Church of Rome denyeth Christ Iesus directly not by consequence onely At this our Opponent B. pag. 122. growes very angry and craues pardon for breaking his long patience and doth challenge him for an egregious contradiction in avouching a deniall direct and by consequence and why Because The foundation cannot be overthrowne both by consequence and directly too None can overthrow by consequence vnlesse they hold directly and no man can both hold directly and deny directly And in conclusion he does grauely reprehend that Author because he labour to proue that the Church of Rome is guilty of such deniall both directly and by consequence seeing such proofe makes the whole fall to the ground being nothing worth and least something should be wanting pertaining to the honour of a learned Disputer he giues his word for all this esteeming the least proofe his great disgrace I answere If I proue that the Church of Rome directly denies the being of the Scriptures and the comming of Christ to saue sinners I doe enough to satisfie this Argument even by the confession of this Opponent for pag. 124. he writes thus If you can proue the Church of Rome directly to deny salvation by Christ alone we binde our selves to grant you the victory and yours be the day If I proue the Church of Rome by consequence also so to deny then that Authour hath made no contradiction by this Opponents owne rule namely because both of them may be true together This Opponent demandeth how or where that proofe shall be had and made pag. 124. I answere I will haue that proofe out of the Councel of Trent and frame it according to art and the rules of answering for that is my office at this time Touching the first I answere to deny and affirme is made by voice and accordingly to deny and affirme may be by the voice of humane reason or divine faith This I take as granted else there can be no difference between the Heathen Philosophers Turks and Christians when they all professe even in so many words That there is a God In the first sense I grant the Assumption that is The Romish Church professeth even in so many words the being of the Scriptures and the comming of Christ by the voice of humane reason and so farre we are content to goe along with this Opponent but the Proposition is false This we say The profession of
the Scriptures and of Christs comming to saue sinners by the voice of humane faith though it be in words never so plaine and expresse yet it giues not being to the Church for the Church subsisteth in it selfe and differeth from all other societies by supernaturall not by naturall or humane endowments and this I take as granted In the second sense the Proposition is true namely The profession even in so many words of these fundamentall truthes There be Scriptures Christ came to saue sinners by the voice of divine faith is the very soule of the Church and so essentiall therto that without it there can be no Christian Church and where that is the Church is also because it is so operatiue wheresoever it doth encline that all other things requisite to a Christian Church does follow according as this Opponent writeth pag. 21.29.34 CHAP. 12. The Romish Church directly denies salvation by Christ BVt in this sense the Assumption is false the present Romish Church does in words and professedly deny the being of the Scriptures and the comming of Christ to saue sinners according vnto the voice of divine faith and I proue it thus They that doe not confesse Christs comming to saue sinners doe professedly deny his comming to saue sinners for in this case a not confession is a professed negation and so accounted by our Saviour who saith he that is not with me is against me he that gathereth not scattereth Matth. 12.30 And good reason hee should so esteeme it for such a not confession is a voluntary omission of our duty This is the will of my heavenly Father that yee beleeue on him whom hee hath sent Ioh. 6.29 Even all men whatsoever because the earth is his inheritance and the vttermost ends thereof is his possession Psal 2.8 Wee see the truth hereof in the omission of any duty Hee that withheld his tythes is held professedly to deny the paying of tythes Mal. 3.8 He that honoureth not his parents is reckoned professedly to dishonour his Parents Matth. 15.6 This Proposition then being very evident I thus assume But the Romish Church doth not confesse Christs comming to saue sinners by the voice of divine faith because the faith of that Church by meanes of the foundation thereof is humane and not divine as hath beene manifestly proved cap. 4. num 7. c. He thinks to shrowd himselfe vnder the authority of our Church which hee vrgeth negatiuely thus Our Church does charge her to erre in matter of faith Art 19 but not with direct deniall of salvation by Christ Therefore the Romish Church is not so to bee charged I answer 1. he takes the authority of our Church to be of moment I demand then why he disputes against her all this while yea against her doctrine subscribed by himselfe 2. The consequence is nought our Churches silence argues not the Romish Church to be innocent for this question of denying or not denying was not in being when her faith was published This was done Anno 1562. that began Anno 1588. or neere thereupon for any thing I can yet learne or this Opponent proue 3. The Antecedent is false for two reasons 1. Errours in matters of faith may be a direct deniall of salvation by Christ for he that so denies errs in matter of faith and we must thinke our Church meant so because her words will beare it and this Opponent cannot shew the contrary 2. Our Church in the second Homily for Whitsontide often times already alledged does deny her to be built vpon Christ the corner stone in that foundation and that importeth a direct deniall of salvation by Christ because he that sits besides that foundation shall goe without salvation This proofe and defence being considered we may safely rest in this conclusion The Romish Church according to the voice of divine faith professedly denies Christs comming to saue sinners and accordingly we haue the victory and ours is the day according to this Opponents offer and our acceptation num 4. chap. 11. I might proceed to proue their professed deniall of the Scriptures vpon the same ground but I forbeare to doe it because the Reader may see this Argument serues for both that and this by changing the termes This Opponent seemeth to qualifie his former recited promise and calleth vs as he thinkes to a new reckoning pag. 22 23. wherein hee writeth thus They overthrow the foundation directly to whom Christ is an execration And to tread vnder foot the sonne of God to count the blood of the covenant wherewith all wee are sanctified an vnholy thing and to doe despite vnto the spirit of grace Heb. 10.29 is directly to deny the foundation And then he assumes in these words Of which crime whosoever is able let him indict the Church of Rome producing sufficient evidence thereof and whosoever shall open his mouth to plead for them let him be guilty of all the dishonour that ever hath beene done to the Sonne of God and lyable to the Apostles curse 1 Cor. 16.22 I answere this is his last refuge if therefore he failes in this he is gone for ever In true forme he reasoneth thus They that directly deny salvation by Christ are guilty as aforesaid But the Romish Church are not so guilty Therefore the Romish Church denies not directly salvation by Christ I may except against the Assumption with better reason then he can argue for it wherefore this I say The Romish Church is so guilty for They that know and belieue Christs comming to saue sinners onely by naturall reason and humane faith They tread him vnder foote account his blood vnholy and doe despite vnto the spirit of grace Heb. 10.29 because the naturall man perceiveth or receiveth not the things of God as they are the things of God forasmuch as they are spiritually discerned 1 Cor. 2.14 The very wisedome of the flesh is enmitie vnto God Rom. 8.7 But the Romish Church does know and beleiue Christs comming to saue sinners only by naturall reason and humaine faith for all their knowledge and beleiving ariseth vpon the teaching of the Pastors of their Church which is meerly humaine because they haue no Commission for such teaching as appeareth Cap. 4. num 7. c. If any man doe iudge that the place alledged Heb. 10.29 mean no more but thus then I rest here as in a sufficient answer to this argument and claim this Opponents finall promise last mentioned and so we are at an end for this cause the day is ours we must carry the victory and the signes thereof leading these Opponents in tryumph If the Apostle be vnderstood to speake of more then this then I deny the Proposition as wanting the very shew of truth I say some men directly deny salvation by Christ who are not guiltie as aforesaid and I haue two reasons for it the first is this Iewes and Pagans are not guilty as aforesaid for the parties so guilty haue received the knowledge of the truth
deale not against our betters for to say the least we are in the roome and behalfe of our Church which wee dare preferre before all her Opponents for they haue subscribed vnto her and thereby they haue acknowledged and done homage vnto her Lordship and Dominion Wee quarrell the persons of men in enuy to their aduancement and honours because he that said thus now said so long and often before with the approbation of our whole Church representatiue and without blame of them that doo now accuse him But is this true our Opponents say so but their proofe is insusficient because in it selfe 't is vntrue and nought in the inference perhaps their party avouched thus much before and yet not seene or not regarded for who would suspect or misdoubt such a friend as he seemed and was accounted If we were glasiers or the sonnes of a glasier perhaps he might see our secret thoughts and intentions but because we are not we must not be laughed out nor aâ—sâ—ised because we oppose not vnto any mans honour and adnancement We cast a stone that hitteth our Mother If that be so if wee haue done it and still avow the deed let vs be laughed out or despised choose them whether but this is impossible wee cast no stones at all by our office we hold vp our Buckler to defend our Mother and to beare of such stones as are cast by others if any stone hits our Mother it is that which is cast at the Church of Rome for that is the thing in question If that stone hit our Mother these Opponents must laugh her out or dispise her for her labour for 't is shee that cast it we doe no more but iustifie her casting If these Opponents will laugh her out or dispise her let them do so to vs also for good reason the Mother Child should share alike stand or fall together We cause our Church to suffer because we father a strange and vntrue tenant vpon her Now we know we shall not be laughed out nor dispised for this because we say of her no more no not one word lesse or more then she hath said vnto vs. If thus to impose deserues laughter and dispite then to deny her to say what indeed she hath said deserues laughter and dispite for the case is the same in both It that be so then our present Opponents must be laughed out and dispised for they deny her to say what she hath said so much the more they deserve to bee laughed out and dispised because they deny the thing wherein sence it selfe even their owne eyes doth avow and cannot be deceived thus far touching the thing which concernes our selues They meane not to speake a word in behalfe of the impure Church of Rome but rather if it were not done already they would vncouer her nakednesse and abhomination And we are content to admit their pretence because such deepe protestations and serious cravings goes with it but notwithstanding they gaine nothing for two reasons 1. because their deed cries loud and inforceth strongly to bring vs backe againe to Rome I say to Rome even vnto that Rome which they call impure for if they haue writen truly no man can deny to enter commons with them even in those things which these Opponents call impure because from them we may argue thus the Romish Church can yeild salvation to her members therfore it is the safest way to ioyn to her seeing all sides agree in the Antecedent but vnsafe it is to ioyn with other Churches for 't is doubtfull and in question whether salvation can there be had or no and thus some of that Church haue reasoned against vs if any say with vs is perfection and puritie of doctrine with them is heresie and defection he saith Nothing sufficient to keepe vs from Rome because if there were any power herein for that end it is because their heresie and defection in the event is able to hinder salvation but the Romish heresie and defection according to these Opponents is not able in the event to hinder salvation because with them The foundation is held which hath the property of that wine which will not mingle with poyson though a great quantity thereof be put vnto it yea such an Antidote it is and a thing so soveraigne that it will destroy much poyson and at last quite overcome it If all this be true who would not be a Papist seeing with them we finde enough to persuade vs for who would not yeeld to tread the way to heaven and nothing to disswade vs for no wise man will be afraid of the thing that cannot hurt him and this is the case betweene the Romish Church and vs if these Opponents may be believed if they say They did not perceiue the issue of their doctrine then must we blame them as heedlesse and inconsiderate what will they be our Iustructers Shall their I reatises serue to giue vs Instruction Shall Cato be compelled to come in and see and censure and yet such fowle and grosse faults bee committed Moreover if salvation may be had in the Romish Church and their heresies cannot hinder it then doubtlesse there is absoIntely nothing sufficient to bar vs their communion seeing they doe as strongly avouch their doctrine to be pure as these Opponents doe condemne it as impure In this case what shall most men living doe if they be seduced to Popery If a Priest should say with vs thou maist goe to heaven as your owne side confesse with vs is nothing to presse thee downe to hell for though we were as bad as you make vs yet by the confession of yours we haue an Antidote that in the event will preserue thee from the evill and reserue thee for the good Lastly it can not appeare that we are blamed iustly for how much you say against vs so much if not more we can say for vs we haue the Records of all ages for vs Councels Fathers history are strongly on our side we haue alledged them and you cannot gainsay vs so as now either satisfie this last or yeeld to ioyne wich vs for your selues doe teach the two first and you may not deny them now in this case what can a reasonable man doe He sees nothing but doubtfull and difficult questions to keepe him from Popery and himselfe not able to determine those doubts I say who would not resolue thus I will ioyne with them not with you seeing I haue nothing to debarr me but some doubtfull questions that may be true and may not be true yet howsoever they cannot hurt me If these Opponents would haue vs belieue as they greatlydesire that they are enemies to Rome and friends to vs they must haue esteemed the Church of Rome to want the nature of that Church whereof Christ is the head for that makes all sure that barrs the doore and shutteth vp all entrance vnto her no man will be so mad to joyn
The second distribution is as fond if not worse then the first but I will not mispend mine owne and the Readers time about it It was meet for mee to let this opponent see his weaknesse in Logick because he vaunteth so much of his skill that waies in his Epistle and throughout his whole booke We should now come to the application of this answer to some part of our argument that we might know what he denies and what he grants and why but I am altogether to seeke for that because he brings nothing that leades vs thereunto Wherefore I come to himselfe and say in his owne words pag. 3. _____ Apply Iohn Barber and thou shalt haue a new paire of Sâ—zors When he hath done so he shall haue further answer and in the meane time I will set downe and examine what his partner B. saith to our argument now in hand therein I will take onely the summe of his answer and no more to saue mine owne labour and the Readers following the example of the schooles who alwayes run that course He beginneth his answer at p. 84. at these words We professe that we esteem c. And continues the same vnto pag. 88. As his partners answer was so is his intricate perplexed vnapplyed but with this difference he was briefer as liking Logick and not Rethorick this larger as loving Rethorick and not Logick nothing could be made of his Something as I conceiue may be made of this wherefore I will set downe that something with the best warrant of his owne discourse Thus then he seemes to answere The doctrine of Christ and his Apostles purely taught without mixture of error is the genuine marke of the true Church So as where that is there followes the appellation of a true Church and from thence we may argue thus Wheresoever Gods word is purely preached and the Sacraments duly administred there is a true Church And so farre the Proposition is true and agreeable to the intent of our Church and the Assumption is so also that severeth the doctrine of Christ from the present Romish Church but then the conclusion importeth no more but that she is not an orthodox Church which is not in question The doctrine of Christ and his Apostles taught purely without mixture of errour is not so essentiall to the true Church that so soone as vnsound doctrine is mingled with the truth of Gods word and the Sacraments vnduely administred that which was a Church should cease to be one In this sense the Proposition is false for such doctrine belongs vnto the perfection and glory of the Church and she may be without them as the children of Israel were many dayes without a Sacrifice and an Ephod Hosea 3.4 yet still they were Gods Church It may fall out that they may be corrupted as in the times of blindnesse and superstition or intermitted as in persecution In this sense the PropositioÌ„ is not according to the intent of our Church which meant not so strictly to tye Gods Church to these signes as if all were excluded from the Church which doe not rightly participate of the word and Sacraments in the Iudgement of Mr. Rogers in his Commentary vpon 19. art propo 8. Lastly in this sense the Assumption is false that makes a reall totall division between the present Romish Church all revealed truth we say she hath not abolished all truth but retaineth some in their disputations and as we thinke more in their Sermons Thus I hope I haue exactly expressed his intent if I haue missed in any thing the fault is his not mine he may thanke me for my paines because I haue done for him what he could not at least what he hath not done for himselfe that I may vse his partners words pag. 5. Now we will take it into severall peeces and examine them in severall chapters following CHAP. 4. Prooving this sentence The present Romish faith is erronius THe examination of his last answer to our Assumption wherin he does attribute some purity of Christs doctrine vnto the Church of Rome is sufficient to determine the worth of our argument now in hand and the whole question it selfe for if the Romish Church be all errour and Antichristian that is if her faith be erronious then without doubt she is none of Gods Church The Church of England in her Assumption now in question meant to say so as I haue already said cap. 2. n. 1. and will now prooue by Gods assistance If the Romish Church retaine some of Christs doctrine pure without mixture of errour then 1. Christs doctrine cannot be denied her in termes without limitation 2. She is not changed into a new guise nor hath forsaken the commandements of God to set vp her owne constitutions 3. She is not without the holy Ghost But according to our Church 1. Christs doctrine is denied her in terms without limitation for thus lye the words of her Assumption The present Romish Church is not built vpon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets retaining the sound and pure doctrine of Christ Iesu neither doe they order the Sacraments in such sort as he did first institute and ordaine them 2. She is changed into a new guise by chopping and changing by adding and plucking away They haue forsaken the commandements of God to set vp their owne constitutions 3. They are without the Spirit of God Therefore according to our Church in her Assumption the present Romish Church does not retaine some part of Christs doctrine pure without mixture of errour but she is all errour and her faith erronious Many learned amongst vs haue so vnderstood our Church and I will name some in stead of all Bishop Iewell in the defence of his Apology pag. 4. cap. 11. divis 1. chargeth her in absolute termes that she had departed from Gods ward and more plainly pag. 5. cap. 13. divis He saith the same thing in these words Thâ—se men haue brâ—ken in pecces all the popes and conduits they haue stopped all the springs and choaked vp the fountaine of living water with dirt and myre He repeates the same thing in other termes cap. 15. divis 2. thus In the Romish Church we cannot home the word of God sinetrely taught nor the Sacraments rightly administred nor the name of God duely called vpon and wherein was nothing able to stay any wise man or one that hath consideration of his own safety I will conclude with his words in the same Apologie part 6. cap. 22. divis 2. where he saith that the present Church of Rome hath vtterly forsaken the Catholike faith Doct. Reynolds in his 5. Conclusions Preface at the 6. doth charge the present Romish Church to be distempered not with a sicknesse that hindreth the functions of life but with such a one as for it selfe makes her past hope of recouery and namely she serues not God with a holy worship nor beleeved God with a holy faith as he hath commanded
the Reader iudge of our cause and the present Opponent CHAP. 14. They that deny salvation by Christ by consequence are not the true Church THe Argument propounded Chap. 11. num 1. presumes the contradictory to this position and this our present Opponent pag. 25. and 26. does expressely teach it in these words Whole Churches haue denied and yet doe deny by consequence that salvaton is by Christ yet we doe and must hold them Christian All this while we haue let that supposition passe vntouched as if it were true because the weaknesse of that proofe should be the more apparent but now and in all good time we say he supposeth falsely and therefore he is a begger no prover We proue against him with this Argument Vnto the true Church Christ may bee profitable Vnto such as deny by consequence that salvation is by Christ Christ cannot be profitable for vnto the Gallatians Christ could not be profitable Gallat 5.2 3 4. But all such as deny by consequence that salvation is by Christ are the Gallatians 5.2 3 4. I say they are the same with them not by name Nation singular persons or doctrine but in their deniall they are the same that is the one denies salvation by Christ by illation inference and consecution and so doe all other The Gallatians held something for true viz. Salvation is by the Law This being granted then must we deny that Salvation is by Christ So standeth it with all others that by consequence deny him to bring salvation Whereupon we may conclude All such as by consequence denie salvation by Christ Christ can profit them nothing and consequently such as deny by consequence that salvation is by Christ are not the true Church I conceiue in pag. 24. he meant at least he might with the matter there contained dispute with this Argument The Gallatians by consequence denied salvation by Christ Gallat 5.2 c. The Gallatians Gallat 5.2 c. were a true Church Therefore some true Church by consequence denies salvation by Christ I answere those Gallatians whereof we reade Gallat 5.2 3 4. by consequence denied salvation by Christ therefore the Proposition is true but that the Apostle writes there of the whole Church of Gallatia may not reasonably be affirmed nor can possibly be proved because no part of Gods word doth say so or leade vs to thinke so The Apostle in the 5. Chapter reproues the Gallatians for biting and devouring one another verse 15. and for vaine glory and envie verse 26. Now the parties thus reproved were particular persons not generally the whole Church for it is not likely that every singular man in Gallatia was so guilty if therfore singular persons were reproved here then there also for the same phrase and manner of reproofe is vsed both there and here If any man be desirous to haue vs vnderstand the Apostle of the whole Church of Gallatia vers 2 3 4. we may doe it without profit to this Argument For then I grant them of Gallatia were a true Church because the Apostle cap. 1. verse 2. terms them a Church and saluteth them with grace and peace from God and Christ verse 3. and does acknowledge them to haue received libertie and freeaome by Christ cap. 5. verse 1. We may continue that they ioyned Circumcision and the keeping of Moses Law vnto Christ in opinion not as matter of faith At that time they began to grow in liking with that conceit but they were not confirmed and setled in their iudgement that God had revealed it nor professed it to the world as such If they did so indeed then I may grant the whole reason without losse because the conclusion vrgeth not vs we willingly acknowledge that the true Church is subiect to errour in opinion in things very important vnto salvation we onely deny that erring in matter of faith can befall the true Church whilest it is so I say we may thus iudge of that Church vntill we see good reason for the contrary because charity thinketh not evill nor is suspitious Nay the Apostles phrase leadeth vs to thinke so for if that had beene a matter of faith with them hee would haue charged them with the fact as a thing perfectly done but he does not so yea rather the contrary for verse 1. he wills them to stand fast in their Christian libertie and verse 2. he puts the matter to an If saying If yee be circumcised c verse 7. he tells them yee did runne well and demands who it was that did let them c. and verse 10. and 12. he threatneth and intreateth for their punishment that did trouble them and finally verse 10. he shewes himselfe confident that they would shake off and forsake the present doctrine and continue in the same minde vnto which he had brought them and in which he had left them wherein it is very apparent he speakes of them as men wavering not as parties confirmed in their iudgement These things considered we may vndoubtedly resolue that the Church of Gallatia is no example wherein we finde that deniall of salvation by Christ by consequence which is the thing we seeke for and deny to the Church And thus much shall suffice in refutation of his great and important argument propounded cap. num CHAP. 15. Of the same Opponents third Argument HItherto we haue discussed all that he hath to say touching the Romish Churches acknowledgement and publike profession of the Scriptures and of salvation by Christ and haue insisted therein to the vttermost lest some should be deceiued by those glorious and beautifull titles In this place we must examine what good their Baptisme does them wherein we may say thus much aforehand If their profession of the Scriptures and salvation by Christ does not grace them but notwithstanding such profession they remaine still destitute of the nature of Christs Church then doubtlesse Baptisme cannot helpe them to it even in this Opponents iudgement for pag. 85. he delivers it for a ruled case that The Church of God may want Baptisme for a time and yet remaine a true Church But he will not say so of professing the Scriptures and salvation by Christ which we belieue and he affirmes is the soule of the Church From their Baptisme hee frameth this Argument That society which consisteth of persons Baptized that is the true Church But the Romish Church consisteth of persons Baptized Therefore the Romish Church is a true Church The Assumption and conclusion is plainly enough set forth in the title of chap. 10. pag. 42. and in pag. 45. The Proposition is wanting but all the rest of the Chapter containes no more but a proofe thereof I answere The Sacraments duely administred according to Christs ordinance in all those things that of necessity are requisite to the same is of the internall and formall being of the Church I willingly grant with our Church of England which giues the Sacraments in this sense a place in the
definition of a Church Artic. 19. and accordingly in this sense I grant the Proposition and say that That society wherein Baptisme is thus administred and consisteth of parties thus Baptized that is a true Church and he may saue his labour to proue it because all Christians will confesse that such Sacraments are peculiars to the Church Testimonies of Gods gracious dignation and favour Pledges of his invisible grace seales of the agreement betweene him and his Church and badges to distinguish the same from all others because no society else does carry the like vnto them in the things themselves and the loue of the Church as this Opponent setteth forth pag 33. But I deny the Assumption and say The Romish Baptisme is the shell and relique of Baptisme and I will now make it appeare though this Opponent of ours seemes to be tragically mooved and in a pelting fume thereat insomuch that hee confesseth himselfe to make good vse of a bridle pag. 46. and 47. and it is well so good an instrument was present for the further he had roved the more he had missed of the true marke The Romish Baptisme is the shell and relique of Baptisme no Baptisme duly administred as aforesaid I proue it by the authoritie of our Church in the second Homilie for Whitsontide oftentimes already quoted which expressely saith the Church of Rome does not order the Sacraments and therefore this of Baptisme in such sort as Christ did first institute and ordaine them but haue so intermingled their owne traditions and inventions by chopping and changing by adding and plucking away that now they may seeme to bee converted into a new guise Will our present Opponent thinke this insufficient to proue the Romish Baptisme a shell and relique of Baptisme I hope not if he does oppose it as not sufficient his partners words pag. 17. shall serue him O mouth ô forehead and he well deserues it what One man instruct a whole Church yea his Mother that bred him whose Articles of faith gaue him his first life and confirmed him in it ever since Nay will he afront himselfe yea himselfe not in transient words but in manent letters his subscription made with his owne hand for he hath subscribed this Homily Perhaps he will say his latter thoughts are better then his first and to returne to the better is more decent then to remaine in the worser wherefore I will confirm the same thing by other proofe which I frame thus The Articles doctrine of divine faith of necessitie are requisite to Baptisme I say requisite previally by antecession not really and vnto constitution such doctrine must precede the Sacrament though formally it makes not the Sacrament I proue it Gods covenant and agreement with man of necessity must precede Baptisme for according to this Opponent Baptisme is the seale thereof But the Articles of divine faith are Gods covenant and agreement with man Therefore the Articles of divine saith of necessitie must precede Baptisme If they must so precede then the Romish Baptisme is not administred according to Christs ordinance in all things of necessity requisite vnto the same for the Articles of their faith are the Popes and humane not Gods and divine as I haue proved already If their Baptisme be not so administred then it is erronious and none of Christs ordination If that be so it is a shell and relique of Baptisme retaining the outward ceremony and materiall forme but wanting the inward life and true intention I answere further That society which consisteth of persons Baptised according to mans invention that is not the true Church for Christs Church and all the members thereof are sheep of his fold and heare his voice servants of his houshold and obey his will In this sense the Proposition is false but the Assumption is true wee willingly grant that the Romish Church consisteth of parties Baptised according vnto mans devising but this gains them nothing the Proposition being false the conclusion is so too By way of reply to this answere he averreth pag. 45. and 46 that Popish Baptisme is true Baptisme holy good and the ordinance of God But I know not what law will tye mee to ioyne thereunto because himselfe is vncertaine and resteth not in it one while hee saith he will not trouble himselfe to proue it till he knowes who denies it another while he takes it to be out of all question and so doth contradict himselfe for if at another time hee will proue it then it needes proofe and consequently it is not without all question If it be without all question then it needes no proofe for according to Aristotle Nothing must be proved but things that may be doubted of Top. lib. 1. cap. 11. and he esteemes him mad who puts that for a question that all men grants Top. lib. 1. cap. 10. In both the pages last mentioned hee disputes thus He that calls the Sacrament of Baptisme a shell and relique of Baptisme was not guided by Gods Spirit disgraceth Christ and the Sacrament But our adversaries in this cause so call the Sacranent of Baptisme pag. 35.47 Therefore our adversaries in this cause were not guided by Gods Spirit and disgrace Christ and the Sacrament I answere in the prosecution of the last Argument we promised him two paire of new Sizors vpon a faire condition we will now increase his wages so as if he can proue and apply this present Argument that it may serue in any part of this question he shall haue three paire so desirous are we to make vse of stuffe so precious Let him doe his labour and his wages are ready It may be he will say he amplifies the conclusion and it may be so too but is he so good an Oratour that he amplifies before he proues I hope he forgets not himselfe and his owne rule Will he one while affirme another while ceny the same thing Now answere then argue by and by declaime Surely this is altogether without his owne appointed order pag 77. it is meet the Reader should be put in minde of these things least he mistake the matter and the learning of the disputer His mind cannot be at quiet the Popish Baptisme is so great a more in his eye and therefore pag. 87. hee falls into it againe and avoucheth thus much The indecent rites and erronious opinions of the Romish Church cannot make nullities and evacuate the force of the Sacraments Their Baptisme for the substance of it is holy and good and effectuall no doubt to them that recetue it as ours I answere the second branch is a meere repetition of his former answere and imposeth a conceit vpon vs viz. that The Popish erronious opinions and indecent rites make void the being and efficacy of the Sacraments To the first branch I will say nothing because I haue done enough for that already In the second he is mistaken or a false accuser if hee will excuse himselfe let him shew the