Selected quad for the lemma: sense_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
sense_n	place_n	scripture_n	word_n	9,705	5	4.5641	4	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A01042	Eubulus, or A dialogue, where-in a rugged Romish rhyme, (inscrybed, Catholicke questions, to the Protestaut [sic]) is confuted, and the questions there-of answered. By P.A.	Forbes, Patrick, 1564-1635.	1627 (1627)	STC 11147; ESTC S102413	101,942	162

must first bee assured that it is the Bryde which speaketh and not a masked Harlot vnder that name As for your Objection of Scriptures obscuritie where-vpon by accusing Scripture you would build an excuse of seeking some other Rule it both contumeliouslie taxeth GOD and is also in it selfe sophisticall It is clearlie contumelious agaynst GOD in that CHRIST commanding to search Scripture for a cleare witnessing of Him the holie Ghost affirming by Peter that the word of Scripture is a sure and shyning word by Paul that it is able to make the man of GOD wyse to everie good worke and exhorting all men praysing in all men the diligent reading and meditation there-of there-by to discerne spirites and to prooue what is propounded vnto them that David al-most all-where speaking so divinelie of the playnnesse and power there-of as where-by even a Chylde may learne to addresse his wayes Yet some of your men Philomathes are not ashamed disdaynfullie to call it a Leaden Rule and a Nose of Waxe as if the Almightie and only wyse GOD had not eyther wysely anough or lovinglie provyded for the direction of His House and that men forsooth will or can finde out a more cleare and certayne way But what-so-ever obscuritie had appeared to bee in Scripture or howe vncertayne so-ever the vayne and running Humours of men might appeare to make it by their diversitie of Interpretations yet this should ever haue religiouslietyed vs there-to that our LORD hath left it vs for a Lanterne to our Feete and sole and perpetuall Ground of our Fayth studying therefore with all humilitie cleannesse of heart and earnest prayer to attayne the knowledge there-of and not proudlie and rebelliouslie to take such counsell as did Israell in the Wildernesse Wee know not what is become of this Moses make vs therefore gods to goe before vs. The advyse of Augustine is much more both sound and sober than is that of your Church-men That in reading of Scripture if wee can not take vp the verie genuine sense and meaning of the place at least let vs not expound that place of Scripture in a sense repugning to the Analogie of Fayth So shall wee bee lyke to a man who how-so-ever hee hath aberred from the direct way yet hee wandreth in the Fields leading to the Towne where-at hee would bee I affirmed Philomathes that your Objection of Scriptures obscuritie was also Sophisticall and thus I cleare it All reason of obscuritie must bee eyther in the matter it selfe or in the manner of delyverie or in the weaknesse of their perception to whome it is delyvered Of divine thinges wee acknowledge that how-so-ever for most reall and constant existence they bee of all thinges the most certayne yet that for their retyred eminencie to all creatures of all thinges the most obscure But for the manner of deliverie as GOD in holie Scripture hath revealed them we affirme that all the wisdome and eloquence of all creatures even in a conceived matter could never haue found out so playne a manner or so farre and lovinglie haue attempered it to the capacitie of man as in so high mysteries and a constant remayning Rule of Fayth was possible And yet how-so-ever they bee thus delivered wee acknowledge that no naturall man and naturall onlie is capable of them For they are spirituallie discerned But the spirituall man by the Spirit of GOD in him will discerne the things of GOD. To reason then from the naturall obscuritie or retyred eminencie of the matter to the manner of deliverie or from the weaknesse of man's perception to conclude of the manner of deliverie or from the perception of the naturall man to conclude of the perception of the spirituall man it were al-wayes absurd Sophistication We are bolde to say with the holie Ghost That how-so-ever to most part of men the Mysteries of the Kingdome bee spoken in parables that hearing they may heare and not vnderstand and seeing they may see and not perceiue Yet That Who-so-ever doeth the will of the FATHER they will knowe the Doctrine whether it bee of GOD or whether men speake of them-selues That CHRIST HIS true Sheepe knowe His Voyce and knowe the voyce of a Stranger Wee avouch That the wordes of Wisdome are all playne to him that will vnderstand and straight to him that will finde Knowledge That Scorner seeketh Wisdome and findeth it not but Knowledge is easie to him that will vnderstand So as if the Trueth bee hid it is hid to them whose eyes the Prince of this World hath picked out and whom GOD justlie eyther for misregard or pryde of mynde hath given over to the efficacie of Errour to groape even at noone day Neyther maketh your Sophisticall Objection of diversitie of Interpretation against this for how-so-ever manie particular places in Scripture appeare still difficill and doubtfull to vs which but know in part and prophesie in part yet wee affirme with Augustine That even in those things which are playnlie set downe in Scripture are all things to bee found which contayne Fayth and Rules of living and that nothing almost is ripped out of the most obscure parts which will not bee found in some other place most playnlie spoken Philomathes To grant you even all that you haue sayde either of the plainnesse or plentiful●…esse of holie Scripture yet what shall you gaine there-by against our Questioner or how shall you justifie the imputations of want of Care Skill or Conscience layde on him by you seeing both our Church confesseth that the Scripture showeth which bee the true Markes of the Church and such Notes as are heere brought by our man hee prooveth them all from Scripture Eubulus How eyther proper or pertinent your Poet's Markes are which hee bringeth and how well hee prooveth them from Scripture or other-wayes wee shall see GOD willing in the particular examination of each where-by all his Corne shall bee found but Chaffe and that carelessie skillessie or fraudfullie hee hath fled the onelie demonstratiue Marke to seduce the simple with Topicall showes You say your Church acknowledgeth that by Scripture the true Marks of the Church are knowne But Philomathes they fall never to say so but when they are reduced to such straits as eyther they must say it or bee snared For their common Doctrine is well anough knowne which can so little consist with this which you haue now granted as the one evidentlie over-throweth the other For doe not your men make all the authoritie of Scripture to depende so farre on the Church her suffrage as that therefore onlie you are sure such such to be canonicke Scriptures because the Church hath so determined Thus monstrouslie you make one and the same to bee both the Mother and the Daughter and of one Philomathes But thus you taxe Augustine no lesse than vs who affirmeth that hee would not belieue Scripture if the authoritie of the Churh did

or in another consideration wee call the Catholicke Church all of all Kinreds Tongues and Nations who vnder one and the same common Ensigne of Christian Profession giue their names to CHRIST and are in the count of His House heere whether they bee onlie in it or also of it or to speake improperlie as in some Cases the Fathers doe the Catholicke Church is the communitie of the Church holding Trueth in relation to Declyners there-from But your Poet appropriating this Title to the first Converters hath forfaulted from this Dignitie all the Converted by them And thus his Proposition is not onlie false but even ridiculous For how-so-ever the Converters of others by an improper Speach may be called Catholicks as anie particular Church holding Trueth is called a Catholicke Church or anie faithfull Man a Catholicke man because they are true partes of the Catholicke Church in which onlie is Trueth Lyfe and Salvation yet to call anie particular eyther person order of persons or companie the Catholicke man persons or Church it is an insolentlie arrogant Speach His Assumption I distinguish If hee affirme That Rome first converted all Nations to the Fayth and was the first publisher of the Gospell it is so shameleslie false as I thinke Satan might blush to broach out such a Lie How did Paul glorie in the LORD and that before hee did see Rome that from Arabia to Illyricum he had filled all with the Gospell of CHRIST and that most part where CHRIST had not beene named not building on anie other man's foundation Haue all the other eleven Apostles besides Peter forgotten thinke you their LORD's Commission of whom wee haue no certayne record that ever anie did see Rome If converting Nations to the Fayth might appropriate to anie Church downe of the same But no Companie offereth to GOD a cleane Sacrifice from the rysing of the Sunne to the setting of the same but the Church of Rome There-fore the Church of Rome is onlie and properlie the Catholicke Church The Proposition of this his Syllogisme hee taketh from the Prophet Malachie His Assumption hee prooveth stronglie for-sooth by an vndenyable Trueth That Onelie the Church of Rome offereth all-where the holie Sacrifice of the Messe Which hee maketh no question but that is the onlie cleane Sacrifice offered to GOD all-where from the rysing to the setting of the Sunne And thus hee thinketh his Conclusion can not fayle him Eriphilus And so I thinke also Eubulus and I hope shall thinke so still for anie Aunswere you are able to make there-vnto how-so-ever you would seeme for-sooth to make a verie light account of it and would according to your manner laugh-over those Argumentes which most pintch you Eubulus Then advert what I haue to say and thinke syne what you please The Condition of CHRIST His Church set downe by Malachie whence the Poet bringeth his Proposition I acknowledge according to the Prophet his sense and wordes which your man Eriphilus resumeth deceitfullie The wordes are these From the ●…sing of the Sunne to the going downe there-of My Name shall bee great amongst the Gentiles and in all places Incense shall bee brought to My Name and a cleane Gift These cleare and distinct wordes eyther ignorantlie or fraudfullie your man obscureth perverteth and involveth to darken the difference betwixt expiatorie Sacrifices or Sacrifices for sinne and other Oblations of Prayse or due Worship vvhich both in their diverse Types are most distinctlie put and in the Anagogicke Veritie must bee diverselie considered And this your man doeth to bring some Colour to his Assumption which is impudentlie false Neyther will the Offering of your Messe which is neyther cleane holie nor a Sacrifice but a most sacrilegious prophanation of an holie Sacrament and the moste detestable Idolatrie that ever was defended for good Worship appropriate to Rome the Offring all-where of Incense and a cleane Gift to the LORD Are you so shallow a Man in Scripture Eriphilus that you know not how all true Christians anie-where beeing made Kinges and Priestes to GOD in CHRIST doe offer vp to Him the Sacrifices of Prayse even the Calues of the Lippes Doe wee not offer vp our selues an holie living acceptable Sacrifice even our reasonable Service What-so-ever workes of Charitie wee in the feare and loue of GOD performe are they not Sacrifices and accepted in CHRIST To doe good and to distribute forget not for with such Sacrifices GOD is well pleased sayeth the Apostle Is not the Liberalitie of the Philippians by the same Apostle called A Sacrifice of sweet Savour and acceptable to GOD Your Man his whole Senses haue beene drowned in his Challice when so doltishlie hee forgot him-selfe as to leaue no cleane Offering in the Church but his monstrous Messe As for anie other Sacrifice for sinne but that one and once for all offered wee acknowledge not So as your Messe may be well relegated to sicke Swyne for whom vpon conveaned pryce your Men haue mumbled out a million Now as your Questioner playeth the Cavillatour both in that hee confoundeth diverse kyndes of Sacrifices and also that hee acknowledgeth not with cleare Scripture anie other cleane Oblation in the Christian Church but the Mischiefe of the Messe So hee illudeth more-over by reasoning from Sacrifice and Oblation figuratiuelie and allegoricallie spoken of to Sacrifice and Oblation in proprietie of signification from typicall speaches concluding not allegoricallie but properlie and that most ignorantlie foolishlie The Prophets fore-speaking of CHRIST His Kingdome doe ordinarilie expresse the Condition thereof vnder Legall Types where-by it was fore-shadowed Which is so evident in all their manner of Dispensation as it is marvell if anie dare pretende to misknow it Speaking of the Conversion of Nations a●…d of their Association to the Church they prophecie That all Nations shall come yearlie and worship at HIERUSALEM Which to vnderstand properlie it were to bee a proper Asse in Divinitie For expressing of the great measure of Light and Knowledge vnder the Gospell they prophecie That all men shall see Visions and dreame Dreames to declare that the Worship of GOD shall bee no more tyed to anie one place but that all-where who worship Him in Spirit and Trueth shall bee accepted Isaia telleth of three Altars to bee erected one in Iudea one in Assyria and one in Aegypt And thus to show how the worship of GOD should bee no more confined within the Iewish natiō or precinct of Canaan Malacbie fore-telleth That Incense and a cleane Gift shall bee offered in all places and that the Name of the LORD shall bee great from the rysing of the Sunne to the going-downe there-of And howe will you out of this make your monstrous Messe or out of your Messe make the miserable Mongers there-of to bee the Catholicke Church except first you make Mules of Men Or is there anie eyther Shame or Sinceritie in disputing when vpon typicall Praedictions Conclusions are inferred

that some Noble partes yet resist the Disease so as the Bodie al-be-it heavilie affected yet dieth not yea getting the true Medicine and Divine Purgation of the Word and Spirit will expell the Evill and notiue Humour and recover Health as Experience hath prooved clearlie in manie Reformed both Churches and Persons Thus Philomathes if in your Assumption you meane by the Church that whole Bodie absolutelie on which that Name was fraudfullie and tyrannicallie imposed then you conclude not your Poynt but deceiue by Aequivocation A dici ad esse from So called and wronglie called to So is confounding that knowne Distinction of Logicke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 where-of I spake before And if by the Church of Rome you signifie the Papalitie and Evill in the Bodie which wee impugne as you must if you evince ought agaynst vs then is your Assumption clearlie false For both before that Evill invaded the Bodie the Bodie was and even at the tyme of the waxing Sore yet still continued brooking some healthsome remnant of Spirituall Sense and Lyfe and now at last by the Medicinall Vertue of the Word and Spirit is recovering Health and destroying the formerlie destroying Disease This will bee yet more cleare by the discoverie of that other Fallacie where-by in this Case of the Churches continuance your Men partlie illude and partlie are illuded For because the Church continueth al-wayes they esteeme and conclude falselie That there-fore shee continueth still in one and the same Condition of Light and Lyfe that is That Trueth and lawfull Worship hath al-wayes helde place and borne swey there-in in common so as what-so-ever Companie or Doctrine most in common obtayned and carried Vogue that was the true Church of CHRIST and the true and Orthodox Fayth And this is most absurdly false and evinced to be so not onlie by evident Experience but also by cleare Scripture For all 〈◊〉 Church Trueth in her hath continued alwayes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 she bene subject to manie Wrestlings Victories Kything 〈◊〉 Eclypses Shee is some-tyme darkened sayth Augustine and is as it were over-clowded with multitude of Offences some-tyme by tranquillitie of tyme quyet free she showeth her selfe some-tyme is covered and troubled with the waues of tribulations and tentations We confesse that the Church hath continued always but not as the presuming Whoore boasteth I sit being a Queene shall see no mourning but oft-tymes afflicted tossed with tempest having no comforter She hath still continued but as a Woman even at first while shee was yet cloathed with the Sunne traveling and crying out with payne next persecuted cruellie thirdly fleeing to the Wildernesse fourthly lurking and fed there while the beast of Satan's power maketh the Earth to follow him by false pretence of the Lambe's horns She hath cōtinued alwayes yet so as sometime while the Earth Sea Fountayns Rivers Starres Sun Moone are eyther first in a great part burnt corrupted made bitter eclypsed or totally at last darkened she consisted of a few secret sealed ones exempted in GOD'S merciful care frō a common evill Sometime againe she is of a number innumerable with Palms in hād Her state hath bene sometime as the temple closed in relation to al the holy citie court of the tēple trodden vnder foot of the Heathen her Pastours some-time few secret ministring within the Temple in sorrow for prevayling Evils yet long without blood-shed as being vnperceived Sometime again vpō application of the true measuring Reede for discerning the true Church within the compas of so importable an impietie cruelly murdered barbarouslie intreated evē with applause of the World Sometime agayn in greater vigour terrifying their enemies in open view flying thorow the midst of Heavē with the ever-lasting Gospell separated from incurable Contagion to come vp hither Sometime as now at last comming so down on the earth as it is all lightened with the glorious shyning of the Gospell Wee know that the true Church hath continued al-wayes Yet so as in a common Apostasie where-by Antichrist obtayned a Throne even in the Temple of GOD and all the Earth followed the Beast receiving his Character Name or Number while to the Beast his wondering Sectators and charactized Slaues it appeared impossible that anie such Companie could bee shee consisted of 144000 secret sealed and chaste ones following the Lambe and having a powerfull and plentifull Dispensation of Grace and a sweet sound of well-tuned Harps al-be-it none could eyther heare or learne their Song but them-selues Finallie wee acknowledge That the Gates of Hell never prevayled or shall prevayle agaynst the Church but yet they haue often assayled her strangelie And thus in what-so-ever sense your Assumption Philomathes That the Church of Rome hath onelie of all Companies in the Worlde for manie Ages retayned the name of CHRIST and anie Worship there-of is eyther deceitfullie sophisticall or evidentlie false And so your Conclusion commeth to nought Philadelphus This poynted Syllogisme of yours Eriphilus E●…bulus hath so blunted as it will scarse serue to pricke a Pudding And if neyther CONTINVANCE can bee a proper Marke of the Church and beeing modified so as it may best seeme to bee one yet is falselie assumed of Rome I see no better Conclusion but that wee let her continue the Mother of Whoordomes and that wee seeke the BRYDE vvhere Shee may bee better found out Of Propers it 's a Propertie that ever Of their owne Subjectes they are surelie sayde Satan shall nev'r CHRIST from His Church dissever Continuance yet can not tho bee made Her proper Marke let see how shee it had The verie moment of her first Creation Some tract of Tyme must bee of force fore-layde Where it is made a proper Praedication This Poynt is al 's accorded amongst Clerks No Common Cases can bee Proper Marks Philomathes Well Eubulus giving you that the Church continued not al-wayes in one and the same Condition of obtayning Trueth and that possiblie Errour might haue prevayled in the whole Church in common but not vniversallie in each within it yet except some visible and seene Companie how small so-ever may bee produced by you who haue professed your Fayth Doctrine to whom you may with anie show of Reason acclayme the Title of the true Bodie so lay over on vs the name and blame of the Sore vvhat is all your reasoning but a poore and verie improbable Paralogisme A posse ad esse as Schooles speake And the poynt of our Syllogisme is not yet so farre blunted as Philadelphus would make it Eubulus To evince the possibilitie it sufficiently meeteth all your Men who agaynst our Demonstrations of GOD His Trueth with vs and the Apostasie of the Church of Rome oppose al-wayes and onlie to vs the impossibilitie that anie such Case should befall the Church So as mine Argument is not as you speake A posse ad esse but of that where-of wee evidentlie