head and husband that all this time of her backsliding did not renounce her In short she was approved to be but not approved as pure in that her being And surely so is the case of the Church where Antichrist sits as God 2 Thes 2. 4. The matter so considered let J. S. when he awaketh make the most he can of it The second part of the dream is this that this is a part of the same I suppose he meaneth corrupt as the whole is To which I answer though it be corrupt yet it is no part of the corruption there being difference as before betwixt a thing and the corruption that attends it the Israelites were a part of the Schisme of Jeroboam The seven thousand were a part of the ten Tribes which went astray In a diverse 1 King 19. 18. sense persons may be of the Church of God and members for their parts and yet in a way of Idolatry and in that way none 1 Cor. 12. 27. compared with 1 Cor. 5. 1. 1 Cor. 25. 12. of Gods as may be further seen by the case of Manasses as also of the Priest that went astray that went along with the Israelites in their Idolatry sure there is little in this part of the whole But in the third place in his deep charge he saith this is to look for a man in the Moon Answ Just as J. S. did look for the Church and Baptisme in the Scriptures Indeed Eliah thought as his complaint sheweth that he was left alone but God told him otherwise for sure to Rom. 11. 3 4. minde a Church as retaining her being though in a corrupt estate is no looking for a man in a Moon though he for want of other matter and better proofe is pleased out of his sick stomack to say so against the truth and such as stand for it Fourthly saith he It is to suppose a Church to consist in such matter as is destructive to it self Sure J. S. cannot make out this in any rationall way it is but a part of his dream to hold a Church to consist of matter corrupt and degenerate as was the Idolatrous Israelites and as was the lukewarme Laodiceans is not to hold amisse is not to hold the matter destructive to the form or being The faithfull City becomming sometime a harlot Indeed such matter is against Esa 1. 21. the well being of the Church but that is not our question the matter of the Church ought to be holy and pure but it is often otherwise Fifthly he saith to hold a continuednesse of the Churches being though not of her well being his term is here succession of truth but he meaneth sure the Churches being It is against the light of nature Answ A marvellous high ascent and sore charge but it is but rashly spoken as one in a dream that loveth no inferences But however it is well it is not against the light of the holy Scriptures J. S. hath left them and is gone to the light of nature but how doth the light of nature teach that a Church and Ordinances of which is our question cannot continue their being if corrupt or greatly corrupted Truly no more then in the case of Job that he should not or could not be a man because corrupt Job 2. 7. The folly and weaknesse of this fifth part of the dream I suppose any weak judgement will be able to see and I will say no more In the sixth place to bring up the reare he addeth a charge of a foule nature That to hold a continuance of the Church and Ordinances under the apostacy of Antichrist Is a keeping of the Pope upon the throne of Christ whether he will or no But how doth this appear truly as all the rest because he saies so I would ask J. S. or any other if the holding the Israelites of the ten Tribes to be Gods people and their Circumcision to be Gods Ordinances did thus keep up that apostacy and the Calves at Dan and Bethel perforce as in the place of God and his waies Againe doth J. S. and those of his way because they hold the continuation of the same Scriptures and which is more translated by Antichristians in their sense and so successively from Pope Jone doth he or they in thus doing keep the Pope upon the throne of Christ whether he will or no It concerns him to see to it and to renounce and cast away those Antichristian Scriptures as he hath done his Baptisme and so seek new Scriptures too lest not being true to his owne principles hee should become guilty of keeping the Pope upon the Throne of Christ whether he will or no. Experience the School-mistris of fooles hath shewed the contrary of this charge in the Reformed Churches who have almost unthroned the Pope of whom J. S. and those of his way as if they had some compassion have busied themselves in making a little Terret Throne for him to sit upon and inhabit in namely their Babel practise And certainly their erroneous practise and way doth more help to keep the Pope upon the Throne of Christ then any other thing that pretends opposition to it as that course doth of which a little more hereafter and for the present I shall onely here aske J. S. whether he doe think the Pope doth sit upon the Throne of Christ yea or no if he say yea then sure hee sitteth in the Temple of God in the Church for Christs Throne is there He proceedeth after that great charge thus But to lay the chain of succession of truth this way namely through the Popedome of Rome as all such must doe that hold a personall succession of a Church Ordinances to consist in the same from the Apostles untill now What will such doe and where will their succession of truth lye when they come to the woman Pope of whom the Papists themselves are ashamed In answer I retort it thus to lay the chain of succession of truth this way namely through the Popedome as all such must doe that hold the writing or the letter of the Scriptures to have continued from the Apostles untill now in a way of personall succession in that defection what will such doe when they come to the woman Pope of whom the Papists themselves are ashamed truly J. S. hath cause to be ashamed of his foolish reason which if it were true he would finde himselfe to be at as great a fault as his oponent But further I say such as hold the continuation of the Church and Ordinances through Popish defection or under the state of the Popedome will doe well enough with their tenent notwithstanding Pope Jone who could never reach the Churches being to cause it to cease nor yet Baptisme of which in speciall is our question all the coined words of J. S. put upon the matter will not doe it as his chain of succession of truth in stead of continuation of Baptisme again hold
Ordidinance where is J. S. then For truly his collective reason is as much as if a person opposing Circumcision as none of Gods Ordinance because of the Idolatry of the Jews should have reasoned thus If the Israelites be Idolaters and the Calves Idols and no gods and the Priests Priests to them that are no gods then is Circumcision 2 Chro. 13. 9. of the same nature also as are the Calves Priests and Jeroboams whole way of Dan and Bethel And for proof should say as J. S. doth that it was the power of Jeroboams way or of his Calves that carried on the whole form of worship and proceed and the power and Ordainer and the Ordinance ordained must needs be of one stamp if one so then so the other Had not such a way of arguing overthrown Circumcision then aswell as Baptisme now Let J. S. be Judge himself and let him tell me whether he would not have distinguished in the case Againe I will propose another instance in the way of his Argument Thus the Author and thing ordained or made must be of one and the same nature if one be Antichristian the other also for so he hath proved be saith But the Authors namely those that translated the Scripture were according to his opinion Antichristians and there be additions and detractions as in some translations there are Now the thing made or translated must be of the same nature with the Translators that were the Authors and if it were added for proof it was the power of their Antichristian spirits that carried on the whole worke and proceed thereof and so conclude as before both are one and the same If J. S. now would in this stand to his own ground where would he be he would be as far to seek for new Scriptures as they are for Church and Ordinances that hold there neither is nor yet can be any in the World or as he himself was not long since for Baptisme But truly it is much to be pittyed to see such ignorance in men professing knowledge that they cannot distinguish betwixt Gods Ezek. 4. 4. posts and mens when mens are set by Gods That they cannot distinguish between Gods Ordinances and mens inventions and aditions that they cannot put difference betwixt the Arke and Dagon or his Temple in which he being placed fell before the Arke I would 1. Sam. 5. 4. faine know of J. S. when Baptisme that was Christs seased and lost its being and Antichrists Baptisme came in the roome of it sure he cannot tell But I must here tell J. S. that the power of Jesus Christ supports and carries his Ordinances in the midst of the deepest defections that Satan ever hath or could bring upon the same wherein his glorious power doth appear although J. S. would spoile him of it by faining that he is overcome his Church Ordinances destroyed Gods people of old remained his people his Church his Church his Ordinances his Ordinances as particularly Circumcision in the midst of the greatest defilements that ever attended that dispensation In like manner it is so now under al the defilements of Antichrist in particular Baptisme of which is our question as also the Church our Lord Christ his power being no way lessened for the upholding of it nor his faithfulnesse failed for the preservation thereof according to his promise who hath said The gates Mat. 16. of hell shall not prevaile against it It were good for J. S. to study well that place 2 Thes 2. 4. Where Antichrist is foretold sitting in the Temple or Church of God and if he would please but to take notice that there is difference between Gods Temple in which he sitteth and him sitting there as there was betwixt the Arke in the Temple of Dagon in which the Arke was he happily would change his thoughts and be of another minde and so come to have more respective thoughts of the power and faithfulnesse of Jesus Christ then now he seemeth to have Truly I suppose these foolish inferences of J. S. will appear to be but meer fantasies without any ground tending only to deceive the simple for any indifferent Reader will be able to distinguish betwixt Religion and corruption betwixt Ordinances and the evills by way of addition or detraction that attends them Circumcision was of God and it was the hand and power of God that carried it forth in those evill times The Idols Calves and Jeroboams Priests and his whole way as they were of and from another so another hand and power carried them along Even as in like manner Baptisme and other like things being of God are preserved and carried by a hand and power of God whereas that universall Church generall Ministery and government with those other forms of Churches Provinciall Diocesan and proportionall Ministery and Government Ceremonies with additions and detractions innumerable as they are from another fountain so they are carried in another channell and by another power abetted and set on namely by the power of the man of sin the author and inventer of them So far shall suffice in this But saith J. S. praising of himself He hath proved that if one be Antichristian the other is Antichristian By what Scripture he hath proved it none can tell And saith he To dream of any approved Church by the Word of God under the defection and yet a part of the same is for a man to look for a man in the Moon and to suppose a Church to consist in such matter as is destructive to it self and therein to hold a successisn of truth is against the light of nature and a keeping of the Pope upon the Throne of Christ whether he will or no. Answ Is not this high Divinity which I. S. belcheth out of his self-sick stomack against the people and truth of God Is it not a sore and heavy charge but it is well it is but said and not proved Now least any as simple as he that said it should believe it because it is said and that by a person venerable in their way I shall take the pains to examine the respective charges as they are laid down First saith he To dream of an approved Church by the Word of God A. Sure he dreamed himself in what he fathered thus upon his opposites who do not hold an approved Church in such a sense as J. S. seemeth to intend that is a pure and spotlesse Church But they hold according to the Scripture a Church to be really true and Gods though corrupt and greatly defiled I suppose he will not question but that Judah not to speak of Israel was the Church of God in Manasses time and in other times when Idolatry greatly prevailed yet not approved as pure and spotlesse but reproved for corruption and defilement yea and visited with the rods of men Psal 89. 3 2. because of the same that she might be reformed so as to be again approved of her
was preserved and not destroyed the earth helping the woman against the rage of the Dragon Sure there can no sense hence be gathered of hell gates prevailing to destroy her Lastly Act. 8. 1. It speaketh of Sauls making havock of the Church and persecuting of it but this tended greatly to the increase of it and not to the destroying of it Certainly I. S. will not think much lesse say hell gates at this time prevailed against the Church indeed it never did for that was alwaies true which was said of the Church of old Many a time have they afflicted me from my youth may Ps 129. 1. 5. Israel say but they have not prevailed against me the righteous Lord hath cut the cords of the wicked in sunder I suppose I. S. hath but small judgement and lesse aim to bring such Scriptures as these to prove that hell gates have prevailed against the Church in any Scripture sense It were far better for him to hold the continuation of the Church according to the sure Word and faithfull promise of Christ and if he would not acknowledge her continuance under the apostacy and defection aforesaid then to indeavour to find her continuance some where else But in regard this would overthrow his new unbaptized Church and proceed that way he rather chuseth to asperse Christ of unfaithfulnesse in his promise then by acknowledgement to give him the glory of it In regard of the former matter J. S. seemeth to have had an eye to a collaterall reason which he setteth down thus Where was their Church before it came out of the defection First let it be observed how he shaketh hands with the Romanists that use to say in like manner Where were the reformed Churches before Luther But in further answer to this demand I say it was in regard of the matter of it in Babylon as the seven thousand were in the apostacy of Jeroboam out of which apostacy of Babylon God called them forth Rev. 18. 4. And so by the efficacy of that heavenly voice they being drawn forth they served God in the purity of his Ordinances a part as the Israelites that left Jeroboam and his Idol-worship 1 Thes 1. 9. at Dan and Bethel and served God at Hierusalem These turned from those Idoll waies in Babylon To the pure service of God in Sion and so kept according to the injunction the Ordinances as they were delivered to them 2 Thes 2. 15. This question is of the nature of what we have treated on before about leaving a corrupt Church for obstinacy in evill and therefore I shall not further trouble my self nor the Reader about it being assured it cannot reach so high as make good any sense of the destroying of the Church by persecution to which it is added here I shall only here minde the Reader that our question is not of one particular Church but of the state of the Church remaining in one place or other with few or many in freedome and purity or in bondage and corruption according eo various conditions and changes that attends her in the world wherein she is in all of those conditions preserved by Almighty God I. S. addeth in his further proceed saying That which once was in such a way of being and ceases for a time and then comes to the same estate againe is and may truly be said ever to continue as Mat. 22. 31. with Luk. 20. 38. In which sense the Church may be said ever to continue for though she be cast down at one time yet god will raise her againe at another so as she shall never be prevailed against so as to be utterly destryed Answ This is plaine nontsense to me first granting then denying and so the whole amounting to just nothing but a meer conceit Here is the Church in a way of being here is the Church seasing to be for a time here is the Church comming to live have being again here is the Church that ceased to be for a time affirmed untruly to have ever a being just as the Temple had when it was destroyed here is the Church cast downe that is without being for so he must mean else he deceiveth here is the Church said to be raised up by God againe and her being restored to her here is concluded the Church was never prevailed against so as to be utterly destroyed Truly truth is strong and prevaileth I. S. speaketh not as of himself but as overcome by the truth which he fought to darken and turn aside but at last is forced to confesse it as they were that had hand in crucifying Christ that said Truly this was the Son of God when they had before crucified him So Mat. 27. 54. he in like manner is in the end forced after all to confesse that the Church was never prevailed against so as to be utterly destroyed But I shall here observe how that what he before said might be made a rationall matter if it were rightly applyed as thus That which was once in such a way of being that is to say pure and undefiled and for a time ceases so to be that is becomes corrupt and defiled like the faithfull City that became an harlot And Es 1. 21. then comes the same estate againe that is to her former purity and holinesse is and may truly be said ever to have a continuation In this sense I would joine with J. S. touching the Churches continuation for though she be corrupted at one time yet God will restore her to purity at another yea If by affliction she be diminished Ps 107. 39. Ps 105. 24. and made low at one time yet at another time God increaseth her like a flock of sheep In either of which senses she hath never been prevailed against so as to be destroyed but this genuine sense J. S. may not admit of for that it will not stand with his way and practice and therefore by multiplicity of expressions he would produce some thing namely That the Church may some time live and have a being and at another time die and lose her being and yet she shall never cease to be That is be prevailed against to be destroyed and this he thinketh to prove by alluding to a place or two of holy Scripture before quoted for confirmation of his conceit To which I answer those Scriptures indeed do seem to illustrate his sense and what he intendeth namely that the Church may be said ever to continue though at some time she ceased to be But how senselesse a thing it is thus to conceit will appeare if we minde the matter a little It is the resurection of the dead which is the case now as men die and are not and yet shall live again and be so the Church in like manner But may such and such men be said to have ever a continuance in the World which is our question and not to have been destroyed by death because they shall
immediatly from God that sent him to prepare the way of his Son Secondly concerning Iohn the Scripture testifieth That he was a Prophet and more then a Prophet But how or what or whether or Matth. 11. 9. no concerning his particular Baptisme it is altogether silent It is not for men to be over wise or meddle above what is written but let the body of Moses alone Last of all I will put it upon this Issue In the judgement of indifferent men whether they think it will follow that because Abraham and Iohn Baptist were the first beginners and actors in Circumcision and Baptisme by vertue of speciall Commission to them personally that therefore it was lawfull of old in case of Circumcision for any of the heathen to have also circumcised themselves and families or in the case of Baptisme for others at that time by vertue of his example to have baptized also as he did without any Commission at all for if in those times it was not lawfull for them so to do but of necessity they must go as our Lord did to the Baptist then in as much as length of time can give no warrant to a thing not warrantable at the first I conceive it will be given and concluded that Instance is invalide and of no force to warrant a person to baptize himself or others being himself unbaptized Which he in the case of Baptisme saith was written for our learning and teacheth us what to do upon the like occasion To which I say supposing the occasion he here speaketh of is not that of necessitie that hath no law but leaveth men at liberty to do the best they can which is the last refuge of I. S. and those of his way There is I say no such occasion as in the case of Iohn there being no Scripture to be fulfilled by sending a messenger before to prepare Christs Matth. 3. 3. way There is no such occasion for that there is no new Commission nor any new Ordinances to be set on foot Again there is no such occasion for that there is baptized persons in the world to repair unto that as Christ our Lord went to Iohn so we might go to them Besides what is not written cannot be for our learning Now it is not written when or where or by whom or whether at all Iohn was baptized so as none of any such things can be for our learning unlesse we will go beyond our Lesson But this is written that he was sent of God and had speciall Commission to do what he did that we might learn not to run before we be sent but to be obedient in going when we are bidden and doing as we are commanded as he did Further I. S. saith for the continuance of the Church from Christs words The gates of hell shall not prevail against it Here by the way I take notice that he hath laid aside his succession and personall succession and speaks now plain English namely the continuation of the Church Matth. 16. 18. Now what saith he to this He confesseth the same But in so doing he overthroweth his new way and course for if the Church continue and hath continued what need is there of new beginning and baptizing by persons unbaptized surely none at all And therefore he maketh his acknowledgement with a proviso that is by a distinction that indeed is either a non-sense or else a flat deniall The distinction is thus That this Church is to be considered in her instituted State as it lieth in the Scriptures in the rules of the foundation See what expressions are here Instituted State Rules of foundation Lying in the Scripture as much and no more then this according to the pattern set forth in the Word Or otherwise in the second place in her Constitation or constituted form in her visible Order As much as if he had said in her outward being Now of the pattern is not our question for as the pattern of the Temple was one thing and the Temple built or to be built was another thing so it is here But see what J. S. saith having made such a distinction as before to darken the truth Thus he saith Against the first hell gates never prevailed This pattern standing sure in the Scriptures as of old the pattern of the Temple might remaine when the Temple was destroyed But against the Church it self which is the second part of his distinction it hath prevailed So the summe is as much as if he had said hell gates never prevailed against the Scriptures but against the Church built according to the Scriptures it hath Now let any man excuse the irrationalnesse of I. S. if he can thus to grant in shew and deny in substance and truth with one breath the continuation of the Church according to the Word and ptomise of Christ made to the Church and not to the Scriptures And I say unto thee thou art Peter and upon this rocke Mat. 16. 18. to wit himseif I will build my Church and the gates of hell shall not prevaile against it to destroy it For why it was built on a sure foundation not to be moved for ever Now this Church the continuation whereof he granted before having deceived himself and his Reader by a groundlesse distinction he denieth the continuation now and saith Hell gates hath prevailed often against it But whence is it that he is thus contrary and I and no Saith he For the Church hath been often in her outward order scattered through persecution and the like Sure this is a very weighty reason thus to over power a man what if the Church hath bin scattered through persecution must it then follow a destroying by hell gates though the Church hath been greatly scattered through persecution yet she continued her being and was so far from being by hell gates prevailed against as that they overcame by suffering Rom. 8. the gates of hell and were more then conquerers The blood of the Martyrs being the seed of the Church and the Church the more oppressed the more growing and increasing J. S. saith in this sense of being scattered she is said to be overcome To which I say that this is not the sense of Mat. 16. 18. nay it is against the sense of the Scripture that by afflictions the Church should be overcome when as in all afflictions the Church hath been more then conquerers through Christ that loved her I. S. citeth two or three places Dan. 7. Rev. 12. Act. 8. 1. For that in Daniel it is utterly against his sense for speaing of the Kingdome of Christ his Church it saith it shall not be destroyed vers 14. 27. As for that Rev. 12. it plainly declareth the prevailing of the Church and not her being overcome or destroyed and that they overcame by the blood of the Lambe and that the Dragon was cast out It indeed speaketh of the womans fleeing into the Rev. 12. wildernesse but there she