discreet and humble use of Ministers gifts even in publick the better to fit excite their own and the peoples affections to the present occasions But that any mens private single Abilities should quite justle out the publick forms of prayer composed by the joynt Abilities and gifts of Godly learned Governours of the Church this is that we cannot allow of Neither do we conceive the spirit of prayer to consist so much in utterance of words which is but a gift of edification as in stirring up the Graces of faith and humility and other gifts of sanctification wherein the very life and soul of prayer consisteth And certianly he that saith that short comprehensive prayer justly called The Lords prayer because he framed it for his Disciples with an understanding devout and faithfull heart prayes very spiritually very acceptably and powerfully Concerning this prayer I censure it as too yieldingly spoken which is said in the first Letter as if the words might be laid aside and omitted the sense being kept When as in my opinion it is an honour to our Saviour and a good mark of his humble and faithful followers to keep not the sense onely but the very form of words which he hath commended Nor can I see any reason why so many in these times do omit the form as if that omission were now become a distinctive character whereby the most godly preachers and most Reformed Christians might be known But enough of this 3. As to the Ordination and power of Ministers that Text Tit. 1. 5. insisted on in the Dispute adde Acts 14. 23. plainly shews the Apostolical practice of Ordaining Elders in every Church and in succeeding Ages a succession of Christs Ministers was preserved by the like Ordination as Ecclesiastical Records do abundantly witness That Churches parochial should be filled with those that set up a new or no form of worship and minister holy things before they have received holy Orders this I think was never heard of in our land before these our times and what the consequence will be we have great cause to fear even the overthrow of all Religion and the introducing of Atheism and prophaness among our people Those words in the late Mournfull Complaint presented to some Parliament men are to the purpose You have placed in many of our Churches and given the Tithes and other profits belonging to the cure of souls to men that refuse to take any such charge upon them and who are so far from having the affections or performing the duties of faithful Pastors to us that they do professedly disown any such relation and consequently all the duties thereunto belonging Thence they neither Baptise nor Catechise our children nor do they administer the Lords Supper in our Congregations our sick and feeble persons they visite not nor own it as a duty incumbent on them to take care for our souls These Ministers I conceive being not Ordained believe their ministerial power to reach onely to those select persons that are in Covenant with them and submit to their Church-way as if the said power were received from the persons that consent thereunto Thus have we Ministers that are Preachers to thousands and Ministers as themselves say to some few gathered out of the multitude the rest of the multitude in the mean time remaining according to their opinion almost in the quality of meer Heathens and Infidels and if they be not such this seemeth a way â—o make them so For being not owned as Brethren by the gathered Church and having good reasons not to come into their communion they are in many places destitute of divine ordinances without publick Prayers Sermons Sacraments and in a ready way to loose Religion altogether But why do they not come into the Preachers placed among them by Authority Because they believe those Preachers however settled by the civil power have not received the sacred Office by lawful Ordination For we may easily distinguish between the Office and the place wherein the Office is exercised Preachers and Ministers are placed and confirmed in their places by the Magistrate or Civil power but they receive their ministerial Office or spiritual function by lawful Ordination and laying on of the hands of the Presbytery This is called the Power of Order derived not from the Magistrate or Prince not from the people they cannâ—t give what they have not but from Bishops and Presbyters who also have received it from their Predecessors The Ministers Servants Officers and Embassadors of Christ must have their Authority and Commission from Christ either immediately as the Apostles had or mediately by the hands of Elder Ministers as the lawful Ministers of our time have nor may any take this honour unto himself but he that is thus called of God The people indeed may be said to Call that is to invite and intreate Ministers to come unto them but their Calling or Function is from God The Lord of the harvest sends in the laborers the great Shepheard setteth Pastors over his flock the Master of the Family appointeth Stewards for his houshould to dispence unto them the Mysteries of God 4. For the administration of the holy Sacrament that such as have not received the power before mentioned by lawful Ordination do not administer the Sacrament to all we will not blame them because we conceive they have not power of ministring to any one but that they condemn the lawful Ministers for ministring unto the people of their Parishes the sacred things which cannot rightly be denied them this we may complain of In the above cited Mournful Complaint among many other sad passages we finde these words You permit us not to celebrate the memory of our dying Saviour in the Sacrament of his lost Supper and so deprive our souls of that heavenly food that our dear Lord hath with so much cost provided for us We would after many sad violations renew our Covenant with Christ and engage our souls more firmly to him but you will not permit us You complain of the loosenesse of our spirits whilest you withhold the bonds that should knit us faster unto Christ you complain of our weaknesse in resisting corruptions whilest you withhold the food whereby we should be strengthened you complain of seism strife and division whilest by you the sacred pledge of Vnion is detained from us Surely I had râ—ther the Church-gatherers should blame the Minister for his indulgence to the people than that the people should have cause in this manner to complain of his severity but the golden mean is to be inquired for And this is discovered in the ensuing Papers where the Author endeavours on the one side to avoid the preciseness of some that admit to the holy Table onely some few persons chosen out of many hundreds and the loosnesse of some on the other side who admit hundreds and exclude not some few namely such as are ignorant and scandalous such he would have noted kept back and
and obtained leave for him to preach in his stead One of his reasons was that he might shew Mr. T. to his friends in that place and bring him into acquaintance with them For if you know Mr. B. you know him to be a lover of all learned men and very glad of any opportunity to serve them either by himself or by commending them to his more able friends Mr. T. having learnedly supplyed the place the chiefest of the Auditors after met at an Ordinary where Mr. Helme signified his dislike of so much Greek in a Sermon and of the Preachers concluding his prayer with the Lord's using this phrase before it meekly kneeling upon our knees This last censure was nothing pleasing to the company who were all well affected to the Orders of the Church and particularly a Minister of note in these parts Mr. M. a little man but full met all fell sharply upon Mr. H. What saith he reject the Lords prayer I come no more into your company And I think he was as good as his word Mr. T. soberly said as much as was fit for the time and place in defense of himself to the content of the worthy Gentlemen and the rest present Mr. H. desired that any man of a different mind from him would send him his thoughts in writing And this was the occasion of The first Letter of Mr. B. to Mr. H. Junii 13. 51. SIR My respects remembred I take leave to trouble you with this Paper fearing lest the Discourse that past on Tuesday create some further unnecessary dispute For preventing whereof it will be good I think to mark what is the meaning of both parties I conceive 't is this You lay by the Lord's prayer not as if you did not hold it to be a prayer lawfull yea and commendable to be used in the prayers of the Church so the Divines of the Assembly call it p. 18. 19. of the Directory And you would have people know that we may pray very acceptably though not in those very words And so whereas it is conceived some have set up that to the disadvantage of other prayers or perhaps been a little superstitious in honouring the former you would bend the stick the other way and by omitting for a time the use of the words though you keep the matter still teach people to regard the sense as the onely thing Wherein you are not I think opposed by the other side who hold the prayer to have been used by Christ's appointment by the Disciples and fit to be used by us How can this be denied yet do not deny but the words may lawfully be omitted and the sense kept And surely it were a very great restraint of Devotion to confine it to any Forms whatsoever my particular necessities being not particularly provided for by the forms of any other Which necessities yet my heart may much desire to open to God And the like may be said sometime of a Congregation So that as every Christian must labour to express himself in private beyond forms so every Minister must endeavour after the Ability to deliver to God the needs of his people as the exigent shall require And the exigent doth not always admit of preparation To conclude we gladly use the help our Lord and his servants that have gon beore us have afforded us We value their prayers and use them We do also after their pattern and agreeable to them frame other prayers for our use And yet after all prepared prayer the Christian Soul must be allowed her sudden ejaculations and extemporall ascensions to the Throne of Grace What would you have more c. The Answer given to this letter was civill and so was the Reply but neither is found Only Mr. Barksdale remembreth he sent Mr. Medes Diatribae with his next letter and commended some of the discourses to Mr. Helme who answerd that Mr. Mede lived in the time of the Prelates and no wonder if he did serve that time wherein surely he mistook the Genius of that excellent scholar whose learning was accompanyed with equall integrity as the Reader may finde by his Epistles and life since published Mr. Helme his conclusion then was that he would avoid controversies and preach Christ unto the people And thus far all was fair between him and Mr. Barksdale and so it continued till Mr. Helme began more and more to alienate himself from all neighbouring Ministers except some few more suitable to his own mind with whom alone he gave out he would supply the Lecture And accordingly when another came to preach he denyed him and took the pulpit himself and there deliver'd such things which occasioned Another Letter of Mr. Barksdale to Mr. Helme Maii 26. 52. Vincat Veritas Vivat Charitas SIR I much commend what you said well of brotherly union and love but cannot away with this new business of separation Fraternall Admonition also I much desire should be more practised but suspension before Admonition I cannot allow of Clearly my opinion is notwithstanding all that I have heard from you and your Brethren that Ministers are not to be condemn'd by you for administring the Sacrament of the Lord's Supper in their Congregations though mixed And for the proof here of I do humbly tender unto you and yours these following Reasons which I shall be ready to enlarge and press more Logically if it be desired 1. Because of Christ's precept Do this in remembrance of me This remembrance should be frequent and not delayed from year to year on pretence of unpreparedness 2. I argue from Christ's example As he washed the feet of Judas among the rest so if you will hear the Expositors antient and recent of best account he admitted Judas to the Sacrament though he well knew his unworthiness and Ministers do not know the unworthiness of those they admit but hope the best upon their profession 3. From the Apostles words Ye shew forth the Lords death The Lords death is shewed forth to the Ear of the unworthy Hearer why may it not to the Eye also of the Receiver though in the Event he prove unworthy 4. From those words of the Apostle where he saith The word is the savour of death to some Yet the danger of that must not hinder Ministers from preaching in mixt Congregations and therefore the danger of the unworthiness of some Receivers must not hinder the administration of the Sacrament 5. I allege the example of the Apostles who upon profession of Faith Baptized whole multitudes and no doubt communicated with them although it appeared after that they were not all right 6. St. Paul directing his Epistles to mixt Congregations calls them all Saints because of their holy calling and profession and those that are Saints in reputation may be admitted 7. In the Church of Corinth were many disorderly persons besides the incestuous person that were admitted And 1 Cor. 11. Where he blames their comming together for the worse he forbids
scornfully refuse it I am not guilty of the bloud of Christ which I highly honour and Minister to those only that seem to me to thirst after it and receive it with fear and reverence after profession of Faith and Obedience If by Praelatical formal superstitious usages you mean those decent Orders and Rites which have been established and used in the Church of England I have much to say for the Lawfulness of them yet am ready to submit to the commands of my Superiors when they shall establish another way agreeable to Gods word I will neither shut my eyes against the light nor resist the Spirit of Christ for which I daily pray The way of holiness I conceive doth not exclude laudable Forms and Customs which serve for edification in holiness Me thinks it is very fit the body should act a part in the service of God with the Soul for both are Gods I had almost forgot that you say I have no Call to do what I do If Mr. H. hath as lawful a Call as I I will seek Communion with him the next day I know it The out-comers that will make use of my Ministry I cannot deny so long as they have no Pastor that will own them upon lawful conditions for the conditions of that same new Covenant are not right in the eyes of very knowing orderly and well-disposed People It had been methinks a good way to have proposed that Covenant to debate among Neighbouring Ministers before it had been obtruded on the People under penalty of loss of Communion The excellent Scriptures you commend unto me I have considered and will give you my sense of them when I see what deductions you can make thence against me I do think there are as good Preachers and as holy men of that way which you call Prelatical as are under Heaven quos longè sequar vestigia semper adoro I speak of Jewels Hookers Ushers Halls Lakes Andrews I could weary you with names worthy of eternal memory It is easy to call yours the Lord's they that are truly so I honour not despise and others a loose dead-hearted carnal party For my part I judge no man but pray that we may all labour to make our calling sure and work out our own salvation with fear and Trembling By the Grace of God we are what we are if there be any good in any of us That Spirit of Grace whose name you say hath been among some a derided thing who have given the occasion to that derision I will not say is by all sober persons ever to be magnified and adored Without which you say well I cannot approve my self a member of his body much less a Minister of Christ And therefore I pray for that Spirit and not expecting new Revelations study what is the mind of the Spirit in the Holy Scripture For the explication whereof because a late Doctor of ours hath done more than any in this Age I commend his paraphrase to you on the New Testament specially on the Texts you cite to me and desire you to peruse Sine Studio partium his Treatise prefixed concerning the New Lights and if you look upon his Exposition of the Apocalyps you will have no cause to repent of your pains Having mentioned this Author of no less piety and modesty than Learning and judgement I would gladly know your opinion of his Latin Book against Blondell If either Blondell be right for Presbytery or He for Episcopacy vide si vacat Thorndik of Prim. Gâ—ver cap. ult of the Right of the Church both waies your New-Church-way will prove plainly Schismatical I do verily believe the power of Godliness may be upheld without the overthrow of antient forms Nor can I be so irreverent to our Fore-fathers ever since the Reformation much less to all Antiquity as to slight and condemn what they either appointed or retained My rule is this Rites of Religion not opposite to Scripture may lawfully be used What say you against it Have they not also if they make for order and Edification a reall tendency in your phrase to advance Jesus Christ What tendency to this end is in the countenancing of Un-ordained Ministers and in usurping a Power of Government in the Church which Christ hath deposited in other hands and in setting up ignorant Persons to be publike Orators I confess Dear Sir I do not understand And my opposition against such waies proceeds meerly of duty In which opposition I shall carry my self with all Moderation approving and imitating what is commendable in the Adversary while I oppose what I can prove to be blameable Him will I willingly confer with either by my tongue or pen in such manner as I may safely do it but much rather with your self because I conceive you are of a sweeter temper that I mention not parts Learning and the like things which although without Grace they are not much to be valued yet are very useful and subservient to the work of God Wherein I heartily desire to joyn with you so far as I can and I hope in whatsoever we be differently minded God will in time reveal even that to us To his gracious direction and blessing I commend you and your labours praying that as you are endowed with precious gifts of Zeal Elocution Learning Judgement Meekness so you may employ them happily to the Glory of the Donor in procuring the Unity and Tranquillity of his Church Your servant in Christ C. B. Nov. 2. 1653. Mr. B. to Mr. H. Novem. 7. 1653. SIR I Am assured you are resolved to hold your publick meeting on Wednesday next and I am desired by some of your Neighbours as well as your self to be present I intend God willing to wait on you at your hour on this condition that you permit me being Respondent to stand in your Pue that I may be seen and heard the better and be free from the croud You and if they be present Master Palmer and Master Tray I will embrace and only you in order as my Opponents placing your selves a part as you shall see most convenient That the people abstain from all rudeness and disturbance of our work your Officers must take care Qu. Whether it be lawful to administer and receive the Holy Sacrament in Congregations called mixt Aff. My meaning is clearly to affirm what you deny though my Terms are not just the same Yours in the Truth C. B. All was granted but the Pue An Answer to a Question proposed by the separating Minister to one of the Parish of W. 1653. Qu. Of what Church are You 1. I Am a member of the Parish Church wherein I live which although it be much distracted by a Minister of separation yet it is not destroyed Although we cannot come to the usual place for the present safely and without danger of being engaged in Prayers against our Conscience and of being seduced by erroneous doctrin and much offended and grieved by uncharitable
call the place so B. I deny that proposition prove it W. The People of God are alone his House God dwells in the Hearts of his Saints B. I Answer the House of God is either the Spiritual House or the Material House The Hearts of his Elect People are the Spiritual House wherein it pleaseth God to dwell and reside This place built by our pious Ancestors and separated from other uses to his Honour and Service may without offence be called his Material House W. This House was not built for the Honour and Service of God B. I expect your proof of that Proposition W. Thus The House built in the reign of Popery and for the Honour and Adoration of Saints was not built for the honour and Service of God But this House was built in the reign of Popery and for the Honour and Adoration of Saints Therefore this House was not built for the Honour and Service of God B. I repeat The House built c. And I answer to the major by distinguishing of the end for which the House was built The End is either principal or less principal This House was built for the Honour and service of God as the principal End it was built for the Honour and Adoration of Saints as the less principal End In the Reformation of Religion our Church reteined the first End and rectifyed the second Honouring the Saints with a pious Memory not Adoring them with divine Worship Hear the Church her self speak in her excellent Liturgy W. H. Away with it we will hear none of your Liturgy and old Forms B. But I must clear the Church from all suspicion of Adoring the Saints and make the Truth evident out of the Collect for All-Saints day and 't is worthy to be heard of All Almighty God which hast knit together thy elect in one Communion and fellowship in the mystical body of thy Son Jesus Christ our Lord grant us grace so to follow thy holy Saints in all vertuous and Godly living that we may come to those unspeakable joys which thou hast prepared for them that unfeignedly love thee through Jesus Christ our Lord Amen I beseech you All to take notice that our Church is free from that superstition or whatever it be called wherewith the Church of Rome is justly charged The Saints are in our Prayers for imitation not for adoration Our Houses therefore being truly built at first for God's Service and now used by us for the right end the setting apart of such places for divine Worship makes them relatively holy and gives God a peculiar Title to them and he owns them for his My House shall be called a House of prayer W. Your own House may be as well used so and called Gods House and a holy place B. No Though God may be served in every place and I serve him dayly in my own house yet the publick place separated for his service I say becomes his by a peculiar right All the world is his but our Churches are his to a singular and holy purpose by a singular dedication As he hath his Day so also a place for his Worship both Holy Keep ye my Sabbath and reverence my Sanctuary For your satisfaction see Mr. Mede's Divine Treatise upon Hallowed be thy name and his letter to D. Twiss Now let us Hoc agere and come to the business of the day H. To the Question of the day my first Argument is this That it is not lawfull to administer the Sacrament in your Parish-Churches thus I prove If you have not a true calling in your Church of England then it is not lawfull for you to administer the Sacrament in your Parish-Churches But you have not a true Calling in your Church of England Therefore it is not lawfull for you to minister the Sacrament in your Parish-Churches B. I repeat If we have not c. I deny your minor and affirm we have a true calling in our Church of England H. If in your calling by the Bishops you are engaged to superstitious and unlawful practices then your calling in the Church of England is not a true Calling but in your calling by the Bishops you are engaged to superstitious and unlawful practices Therefore your Calling in the Church of England is not a true Calling B. I deny your minor and affirme we are not engaged to any superstitious and unlawfull practices is our Calling by the Bishops H. The keeping of Holy-dayes I do not mean Holy-dayes upon occasion as our Thanksgiving dayes but your set holy-dayes the keeping of your holy-dayes is an unlawfull practice But in your Calling by the Bishops you are ingaged to the keeping of Holy-dayes Therefore in the Calling by the Bishops you are ingaged to unlawfull practices B. I deny your major and affirm that the keeping of our holy-dayes is not an unlawfull practice H. A practice against Gods command is an unlawfull practice But your practice is against Gods command Therfore your practice is an unlawfull practice B. Not against God's command how prove you that H. My text is in 20. Exod. where you shall find it a part of the fourth Commandement Six dayes shalt thou labour and do all that thou hast to do Therefore it is against Gods command to keep any one of the six dayes holy B. I answer two wayes 1. By retortion 2. By interpretation 1. By retortion I say your Argument rebounds upon your self and condemnes your own practice and that Text in your sense that we are commanded to labour six dayes takes away as well occasionall holy-dayes as set and recurrent For our Thanksgiving dayes are not dayes of labour 2. By interpretation the words you urge are not preceptive but permissive God requires one day in seven and allowes us six not denying us the liberty if we be so devout as to consecrate some part of them also to his publick Service The Jewes had among their holy-dayes the feast of Dedication of human Institution which yet we read that Christ himself observed H. Worship not instituted by God is unlawfull Worship But your Holy-dayes are a Worship not instituted by God but by human authority therefore your holy-dayes are unlawfull Worship B. I answer to the minor and say that our holy-dayes are not the Worship it self but a circumstance of the Worship and circumstances of Gods Worship may be ordained lawfully by men H. Well your calling by the Bishops however is not lawfull and thus I prove it If the Scripture allowes of no Diocesan Bishops then your calling by the Bishops is not lawfull But the Scripture allowes of no Diocesan Bishops Therefore c. B. I deny your minor and affirme the Scripture does allow Diocesan Bishops H. There is not so much as the name of a Diocesan Bishop in all the Scripture B. But there is more than the Name there is the Thing there is the Office The word Trinity is not in the Scripture yet we Believe the Trinity H. Where doth the
Scripture But this requires the searching of Books which at your lesure I should be glad to shew you W. Protestants Whom do you mean by Protestants B. I mean those that protest against the Errors Innovations of the Roman Church in latter times and endeavour to reform Religion according to the Scripture and the primitive pattern H. You see he takes in the practice of the Primitive Church again B. I do and must and thus I argue That Government which in the primitive Ages took place in the Churches planted by the Apostles is the Apostolicall and Scripture Government But the Government of Diocesan Bishops took place in the Churches planted by the Apostles Therefore the Government of the Diocesan Bishops is the Apostolicall and Scripture Government Now let me see who will answer me W. Antichrist Antichrist was working betimes B. Whether it be Antichristianism to establish or to over throw the Function of Bishops let all considering men judge by the Premises W. But why do you take in any thing else with Scripture as if that alone were not sufficient for us H. Yea Scripture Scripture we are contented with Scripture B. Give me leave to explain my self to All and I entreat you Harken The Scriptures perfection I do thankfully acknowledge but the things conteined in the Scripture are some of them conteined in it plainly and expresly to be apprehended by every Reader other things are conteined there implicitely virtually and so as there is need of many helps to make our deductions thence And for the Scripture-government I know no better light to shew it than the practice of the Antient Church I argue thus They that have commended to us the very Books of Scripture are fittest to give us the sense of them especially in point of Government But the Antient Church hath commended to us the very books of Scripture Therefore the Antient Church is fittest to give us the sense c. And I pray Mr. W. how will you prove that the Scripture is the Word of God W. I know it by the Testimony of the Holy Spirit in me B. But how will you convince another that will not believe your Spirit that the Scripture is divine Here you may make very good use of the Testimony of the next Ages that received it from the Apostles and gave it down to their Followers W. and H. Popery to depend upon the Testimony of the Church To. Since you are many at once upon one which is not fair give me leave to put in sometimes in behalf and for the case of the Respondent We say we depend upon the testimony of the Antient Church not of the now Roman Church The Roman Church is a very corrupt Church the Primitive times were far more pure W. What do you talk of Purity after the Apostles times Did not many Heresies creep in To. By this Argument you will condemn the Apostles times also for even then were not wanting Schismes and Heresies B. Will you leave this as it is and proceed to some farther Argument and come close to the business of the Sacrament I say it is lawfull for me to Minister the Sacrament in the Congregation at Sudeley H. Thus I proceed to shew that your calling is null therefore you cannot Minister Ministers that Prophane the holy things of the Lord their calling is null But many Parish Ministers prophane the holy things of the Lord Therefore their Calling is null B. You should say All Parish Ministers for you hold it is not lawful to Minister in any mixt Congregation and such you say are all Parish Churches But say neither All nor Many but apply the minor to me whom you have publikely in your Sermons condemned before you used the Christian wayes of more private Admonition and then I deny both your premises both Major and Minor both are false and Scandalous Neither doth the prophaning of Holy things null the Ministers calling nor have I prophaned the Holy things in the said Ministery H. First then I prove the major fully you that have Bibles Brethren pray turn to the places Ezek. 22. 26. 44. 13. B. What prove you thence H. That prophaning the Holy things nulls the Priesthood for they shall be no Priests unto me saith the Lord. B. I answer to the Text by distinguishing between the Order of a Priest and the Office of a Priest They shall be no Priests unto me here is a suspension from the Office and work of the Priests no nulling of the Priesthood it self W. Then it seems by you They were Priests and no Priests God saith They shall not you say they shall remain Priests To. He hath shewed you how They were Priests and no Priests in divers respects They were still of the Order and race of Priests they were not to officiate any more in the Priestly office God would not accept them he saith They shall be no Priests unto me Yet who knoweth but upon their repentance God might readmit them not by a new Consecration but by Absolution And so Ministers when they are restored after suspension are not new Ordained but only the Censures taken off Tr. Well you grant at last a removall and suspension from the office though the calling be not nulled And so you will confess you deserve to be removed from Officiating if you prophane the Holy Things of the Lord. B. I will grant that a Minister if he be so prophane ought not to officiate but I think the proceedings against a Minister must be tender and wary Receive not an accusation against an Elder without two or three witnesses Conviction must go before Censure and upon Repentance restauration followes And I refuse not to be so dealt with Tr. Proceed therefore and prove your minor that he doth prophane the holy things of the Lord. H. They that administer the Sacrament promiscuously to All do prophane But you so administer Therefore c. B. Your minor's false and Scandalous The Congregation of my hearers I will confess is mixt not so the Company of my Communicants Understand what my practice is After divers preparations when the Sacrament is to be administred I proclame All that are not prepared Depart You that are prepared Stay These after the departure of the rest I look upon as prepared in some measure and so I go on H. If you do administer the Sacrament to the unregenerate Tr. No no say thus to the ignorant and Prophane H. You Minister the Holy Sacrament to the ignorant and prophane B. You do well to prompt one another Prove it Or if you please I answer persons may be ignorant and prophane either in the eye of God that searcheth the secrets of the heart or in the eye of the Church that looks upon the outward appearance In the former sense some of us may be such we are not so in the latter Tr. Pray Mr. B. let me ask you Do you know every one that you Minister the Sacrament to B. I will give you
you conceive by the Church B. I am very inclinable to Saint Chrysostome's interpretation who by the Church understandands the Elders and Rulers of the Church H. The word Church is no where so taken in all the Scripture and therefore it cannot be so taken here shew us any place B. It doth not follow for some word may possibly signify that in one place which it signifies no where else and again there may be other places though I cannot readily shew them I will consider of it H. No I doe assure you t is never so used and therefore I hope you will yeeld to the Word that we may go on with one consent in the work of God B. God grant it if it be the Work of God but you have not cleered it yet I cannot yield to your sense for this Reason That sense of Scripture concerning Church-government which was never received by the Doctors of the Antient Church is not the true sense of Scripture But your sense of the place was never received c. H. Still still he declines Scripture and would lead us to human Ordinances B. As for human Ordinances I can embrace them so far as they are not opposite to Scripture but now we are upon the Interpretation of Scripture I must profess I have been ever bred in the Church that requires all her Ministers to receive the Scripture as interpreted by the Antient Fathers and to propose nothing to the people contrary to what was derived out of the Scripture by them I am not ashamed of my Mother the Church of England nor by Gods grace ever shall I. And I doe heartily warn all that hear me to take heed as they tender their Soules of departing rashly from the Communion of of the said Church W. I thought where we should have you B. You have me where I have ever been and where I mean to abide till I am convinced I am not unwilling to learn of any one And pray Mr. W. tell me whether you hold not a Synod of chosen men gathered out of your Churches to have authority over them all W. No authority at all such a Synod may be of use for advice and counsell not for goverment or for the exercise of any jurisdiction B. Then as I conceive your modell is very imperfect and me thinks your Ministers in their severall Congregations look like so many little Popes For the Pope is the Great Independent and will allow of no Appeal from him no more will you H. Pray Mr. B. quiet the People B. I beseech you good people I beseech you attend with silence and patience Tr. Where presently followes Execution there can be no appeal But after the sentence of the Congregation presently followes execution If he hear not the Church let him c. Therefore from the sentence of the Congregation can be no appeal B. Well argued I repeat Where presently c. I answer first to the major or first proposition There may be an appeal after execution of the sentence of the Congregation In your own way may not the wronged person appeal from you to your selves In the Presbyterian you know there lyes an appeal to the Classis but that I take not on me to maintain I know no power to excommunicate but Episcopall Tr. Then it seems by you the Bishop is the Church and the sole judge of the Congregations B. Not so neither Hear my Answer I pray and do not you ignorant fellowes laugh at that you do not understand The Bishop is considered either Sole or alone or as he sits in Cathedra crowned with Presbyters In this later sense I humbly conceive the Bishop is or ought to be Governour of the Congregations within his Diocese And such Bishops we can shew innumerable in the ancient Records of the Catholique Church I am very sorry these Gentlemen are so ill read in good Books of our own English Divines as to deny a truth shining so bright upon them Mr. Tr. have you not seen the learned Thorndike of the primitive Government c Tr. We cleave to the Scripture and call you to the foresaid text Can you shew one place where Church is taken for the Bishop and his Presbyters B. What if I cannot The Authority of the antient Fathers is sufficient for the present to commend my interpretation to such as reverence Antiquity But because I would gladly please you I will offer another sense of the words in question which will come neer to you but is not fully yours That is after the first admonition by one and the second before two or three it is the mind of Christ that a greater number should be made acquainted with the business tell it to the Many for the shaming of the offendor as the Apostle somewhere speaks the words may the more probably be taken in this sense because as yet the Disciples were not setled under a Church-government and so there remaining no more to be done after this shaming of the offendor before a good number of Fellow-Christians i. e. the Church he was to be henceforth till his amendment accounted as a heathen and might be prosecuted for any offence before the heathen Tribunalls Which prosecution was not lawfull against those that would hear the Church See 1 Cor. 6. But this will do you no pleasure unless that which followes in the next verse belong unto the Congregation too but that cannot be if Christ spake the words to his Apostles and gave the Keys and Power of Binding and Loosing to them and their successors as I believe he did Consider of it See the learned Dr. Hammond of binding and loosing To. Give me leave to add somewhat here in confirmation of what was last said Scripture you know gives light to Scripture Christ elswhere saith to Peter that he would give the Keys to him Matth. 16. 19. And John 20. 21 21 23. he speaketh to his Disciples and thus enstateth them in that power Then said Jesus to them again Peace be unto you as my Father hath sent me even so send I you And when he had said this he breathed on them and said unto them Receive yee the holy Ghost whosoever sins yee remit they are remitted unto them and whosoever sins ye retain they are retained these are the solemn words of Ordination W. The words are spoken to Peter and to the Disciples as they were Christian professors and so they do belong to our people not as they were appointed by Christ to be Governours of his Church To. The words signify a power committed to them which they used as Governours 't is plain and which they left to the Bishops their Successours Tr. The Apostles had no successors being gifted with a miraculous power B. The Apostles are to be considered in two respects either as planters of the Churches and to that purpose endued with a miraculous power to make way for and to give confirmation to the Gospel or else as Governours of the Churches