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A15978 [A notable discourse, plainelye and truely discussing, who are the right ministers of the Catholike Church written against Calvin and his disciples, ... with an offer made by a Catholike to be a learned Protestant ... .]; Marques de la vraye église catholique. English Albin de Valsergues, Jean d', d. 1566.; Rishton, Edward, 1550-1586, attributed name. aut; Allen, William, 1532-1594. 1575 (1575) STC 274; ESTC S112318 85,201 271

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the best of the worlde yea whollye without spot or sinne as some of you doo affyrme yet were not they sufficient to moue vs to chaunge our religion nor to forsake that that our forefathers haue taught vs for although it be so that our Sauiour Christe was as iust and as innocent as any can be hath beene or euer shal be yet neyther his holy life nor the Scriptures that he did alleage to proue his comming by the authoritie of the Prophetes nor the testimonie of S. Iohn Baptist all these thinges together wer not sufficient to perswade the Iewes to forsake their old lawes and to receaue the Gospell without the testimonie of the great miracles that he did in their presence He doeth confesse this plainely where he sayth If I had not done in their presence the workes and miracles that neuer any had done they should haue no sin This sentence is moste notable and woorthy to be grauen in the heartes of all Catholikes to assure their consciences which are troubled with such diuersitie of opinions For although it were so that you my masters were the honestest men of the worlde sent from God to teache and preache a true doctrine yet shoulde we be excusable before God for not receauing of your commission euen as the Iewes had bene for not receuing of our Sauiour Christe if he had not done so manye miracles For we knowe no cause why you shoulde be more priuileged then Christe And seing that you haue shewed nothing to verifye it this waye and that the Scriptures make no mention of your vocation nor you shewe no miracles and that your liues are at the least as yll as ours what moues you to be so bolde and so vnshamefaced as to threaten vs with eternall damnation if we receaue not your hereticall doctrine the which is so full of discordes and diuisions that one maye easilye gather by this from whence it came and whither it doeth leade one although yee haue nothing in your mouthes but the Gospell the worde of the Lorde and as S. Augustine sayde vnto your semblables Sola personat apud vos veritatis pollicitatio I say no more at this time but that I beseeche God to drawe you as nere to vs as you are farre from vs and to inspire youre mindes to turne to the flock of Christ the which both to your owne harme and ours you haue forsaken FINIS ¶ An offer made by a Catholike to a learned Protestant wherein shall appere the difference betwixte the open knowen Churche of the Catholikes from the hidde and vnknowen congregation of the Protestants FIrste seeing it cannot be denyed that our Sauiour Christe before his departure and Ascension did commit the charge and gouernment of his Churche the testimonie of his word the truth of his Gospell the ministration of his Sacramentes to his Apostles and Disciples that not only for them selues but to their successors Bishops and priests to none other saying onely vnto them Euntes docete omnes gentes Goe ye and teache all people and nations of the worlde baptising them in the name of the father and of the sonne and of the holy ghoste teaching them to obserue and keepe all thinges which I haue commaunded you Further Thapostle S Paule being at Miletum in executing of his charge and gouernment gaue this admonition to the bishops and priestes there assembled before him saying Attendite vobis et vniuerso gregi Take hede vnto your selues and vnto the whole flocke of Christe in the which the holy ghoste hath ordeyned you bishops Regere ecclesiam dei to gouerne the church of God. And in the thirtenth Chapiter of his Epistle to the Hebrews he doth commaunde al other sortes of men without exception of Emperours kinges Queenes princes to obey their bisshops and priestes saying Obedite Praepositis vestris et subiacete eis ipsi enim peruigilant quasi rationem pro animabus vestris reddituri Obey your Prelates and doo what they appoynt you for they doo watche as men that shall render accoumptes for your soules Seeing that by the testimonies before alleaged it can not be denyed but that the charge and gouernment of Christe his churche the preaching of his doctrine the administration of his Sacraments was by him committed to his Apostles disciples and to all Bishops and priestes as Successors of them to plant christian fayth and religion in his catholike churche vniuersally throughout all nations coastes and quarters of the worlde Seeing this is by the playnnes of the sayde Testimonyes of suche an vndoubted truth that it cannot be denyed Nowe let the learned Protestant affyrming princes to be the supreme heades of the Church eyther shewe by some suche other like playne testimonyes of the scriptures that our Sauiour Christe did committe the chiefe charge and supreme gouernment of his Churche to Emperours kinges Queenes and princes to plant christian fayth religion in the same or that anye one of Christe his Apostles or disciples did conuert any people lande or countrey from their Idolatry Ethnike kinde of liuing to Christian fayth religion by preaching the doctrine of the Protestantes as of onely fayth to iustifye the contempt of good workes and that they be all vncleane in the sight of God the denyall of free will of the reall presence of Christes bodye in the holy Eucharist of the sacrifice of the moste blessed Masse the abolishing of Christe his Sacramentes of all grace and goodnes by them cōferred vnto vs then I shal yeelde and recant and not before Seconde Christe his Catholike Churche being on this wise planted by Thapostles disciples of Christe by Bishops and priests the successors of them had at all times a special care and regarde not onelye of preaching Gods worde but also of the preseruation of the same worde and Gospel by writing of the sacred Bible and holy Scriptures and did discerne iudge them from all other writinges prophane or authentique of all sortes What Churche hath had from time to time the custody of the sacred scriptures and moste safely hath preserued them for the necessary foode of Gods people and from the corruption of the aduersaries aswel Iewes and Gentiles as schismatikes and heretikes of all sortes but onely the common knowen Catholike Church of Christ When therefore the learned Protestantes shal be able to bring proufe to the contrarye that their priuate conuenticles and congregations were the firste bringers forth of this sacred Bible and the worde of God written the chiefe preseruers and defenders of the same in all times and ages from all Iewes Gentiles heretikes and schismatikes Then I will as I saide before reuolte and recant Thirde shew me good reason why ye protestants doo beleeue our catholike churche enfourming and telling you this to be the word of God written the true Bible and sacred Scriptures and doo refuse to credite her in the true sense and vnderstanding of the same Scripture she being
eyght of Genesis where God doth saye Increase and multiplye and replenishe the earth If you doo saye that this is a foolishe opinion I confesse it to be so but that very Churche which hath condemned this heresye of theirs doeth likewise condemne yours When the deuil determined to fight with Christe he thought he could in no wise ayde him selfe so well as with the holy Scripture perswading him that the best way for him to shewe him selfe to be the sonne of God was to breake his necke castinge himselfe downe from the Pinnacle of the TemTemple And he did alleage this text saying as it is written That the Angels of God shoulde so preserue him that he shoulde not hurt his foote against the stones folowing that Dauid saide And if I should go about to write al the places of Scripture that the heretikes haue alleaged to mainteyne their horrible errours I thinke surely I might make a bigger booke then the Bible ¶ The .24 Chapter YF that the sonne doo hate the father or the father the son or if the wife doo hate the husband or the husband the wife they may take the word of God yll vnderstoode to defende their cause for he doth cōmaunde vs that we shall hate those that are neerest vnto vs as vnder the payne of not entring into Paradise if we doo contrarye But this ought to be vnderstoode that we ought not to preferre the loue of any creature howe neere soeuer they be to vs before the loue of god In like maner he that will saye that we shoulde not eate of the blud of those beasts that ar smothered he may soone alleage the Scripture for it which doeth saye That at the Councell that the Apostles helde at Ierusalem being present the holye Ghoste this ordinance was made as we reade in the .15 Chapter of the Actes And if that one should take in hande to bring all the places of scripture that the heretikes haue alleaged to mainteyne their opinions I dare boldly saye that he shall fynde it an endlesse piece of worke For amonge so great a number of false prophetes there hath bene very fewe or almoste none but they haue sought to mainteyne their opinions by Scripture drawing the places as it were by violence to a depraued and a corrupte sense being this the maner of interpreting of the Scriptures called at this day the pure worde of God by those that haue professed to be as long as they liue enemies to the trueth The learned and auncient Doctour Epiphanius in his fyrst booke against heresyes doeth alleage as touchinge this matter a verye familier example saying that if some good Caruer had made the Image of a king adorned with manye Iewelles and precious stones and that another should come afterward and should take the same Iewels precious stones and make with them the Image of a Foxe or a Dogge and that he should saye Beholde here is the Image of a king woulde not euery body laugh him to scorne and say that he did it in mockerie or els that he were mad Yes surely for although they be the same Iewelles and that very stuffe wherewith was made the Image of the kinge yet because that this other workeman hath taken them awaye and fashioned them after another sorte it ought no more to be called the Image of a king but the picture of a foxe or a dogge Euen thus is it with the holye Scriptures whiche were lefte vs by the Apostles and Prophetes for to paint in riche coulours the Image of the great kinge of glorye but seeinge that you take those precious stones from the Image of this kinge and doo appropriate them vnto the Image of a foxe making them serue to cloake youre heresyes withall it ought no more to be called the worde of God nor the holye Scripture but the woorde of menne and false doctrine And therefore yf you will haue it to beare the fyrste name you must set it in the fyrst estate that is to saye that it ought to be interpreted by him that did firste indite it It is not by the will of man sayth S. Peter epist. 2. Ca. 1. That the prophecie was brought but by the inspiration of the holy Ghoste that holye persons haue spoken c. I knowe well that you attribute the intelligence of the Scripture vnto your Sinagog But howe shall we beleue that the holy Ghoste doth dwell more in you then in all the vniuersall Churche which hath continued from the passion of Christ vntil this time I pray doo so much as aunswere me if you my masters be the lodging of the holye Ghoste where did he make his residence before ye were borne I know already your aunswere the which is In the heartes of the faithfull And where were those faythfull Marye where the holy Ghoste was Answer thus still and ye shal be sure that ye shall not be ouertakē for it is as good as to playe Handie dandie and so ye shall accomplishe the olde Prouerbe the which sayeth It is as farre from Douer to Caleys as from Caleys to Douer But to the ende that all the worlde may see the great hazarde of eternall damnation that those runne into that are so ready to beleue euery body thinking that they are assured of their health forasmuche as those that seduce them say beholde there is the Scripture it is the pure worde of God and the verye Gospell I will set forth some heresyes that haue bene in times past condemned by the Catholike Churche the which notwithstanding haue bene aswell yea and more largelye confyrmed by Scripture then you can confyrme anye of yours ¶ The .25 Chapter THe Catholike Church continually hath faythfully holden and doeth hold that our Sauiour Iesus Christ is true God and man hauing taken naturall fleshe in the wombe of the virgin Marye whollye like vnto ours as touching the corporal essence that is to saye excepted onelye sinne the which bodye he did fourme of the verye fleshe and substaunce of his mother by the operation of the holye Ghoste who hath wrought so notable and excellent a woorke that two contrary or diuers natures are miraculouslye ioyned and vnited in one person without confusion or conuersion of the one substaunce into the other but by coniunction and vnion of them both called by the diuines Hypostatique This doctrine hath euer beene receaued and holden by the Churche in equall degree of trueth and reuerence with the rest of the poyntes of religion which nowe you seeke to abolishe And notwithstanding this diuers Ministers and Preachers deriued from the sacred consistoryes of Valentinus Photinus Manes Theodorus Nestorius Apollinaris Eutichus Macharius Eutiocheus besydes a great number of other famous heretikes that I cannot here name haue sought to teache the contrarye saying that they were sent from him that sent the Apostles to refourme the Churche not by the Traditions of men which you call Papisticall but by the pure worde of god For euen like you
iust a quarell Did not Michaell Seruet who was once master Caluins derling rather desyre to suffer at Geneua then he wold confesse that Christe was God and yet notwithstanding his great patience or to say the truth deuillishe obstinacie cannot be sufficient to make him a Martyr nor to perswade you to beleeue his doctrine There is a certaine minister of the Lutherans called Ioachim Westphall who in a woorke of his doth mocke at Caluin who did vaunt that within these fyue yeres aboue an hundred had suffred death to sustayne the Gospell of Geneua he doth aunswer him at large prouing that the sect doctrin of the said place ought not to be approued for the multitude of false martyres for the Anabaptists whom he doth iustly condemne haue had of their sect a great many more for in lesse then three yeres there hath suffred a great number more thē euer there did suffer of Caluinistes in fyueteene And to conclude this matter the sayde Westfal doth say that the diuel hath his Martyrs euen as wel as god with whom like a good Sergeant he doth marche geuing the vauntward vnto the martyrs of the Caluenistes that haue suffered at Geneua So that if one demaund of the Lutherans whyther goe those that dye in the religion of Caluin of Beza or of the Anabaptistes they saye To the Diuel And if one demaund of the Caluenists in like maner Whither go the Anabaptists and the Lutherans they say in likewise To the diuel And who would put the like question to the Anabaptists I am assured they would say as the others To the Diuel For my part I beleeue you I assure you all three And seeing that ye agree so wel that one serue for an others harbēger we were very fooles if we should stay your passage but let you go al to the diuel for companie for I thinke if you were al gone our debates would cease and hel would be so ful that the diuel would long for no more ¶ The .33 Chapter THere is a certayne minister of the Lutherans called Heshusius the which within these three yeres hath made a booke agaynst Caluine Peter Boquin Theodore de Beza and Guliel mus Elcimalcius he sayth amongst other things that Carolstadius Zuen feldius Caluine and Beza doo shewe wel the vncertayntie of their fayth by the diuersities of opinions that there is amongst thē the which fault saith he doth proceede of this that they haue forsakē the true sense of the scripture to folowe the opinions of their owne heades And in that very booke the sayde Author doth giue the lye to Caluin because that in that he wrote agaynst the abouenamed Westphal he sayth that Martin Luther and his adherentes did acknowledge him as their brother the which thing he mainteynes to be false Thus seeing ye agree together like dogges and cattes and that al these sects haue confirmed their false doctrine with the shedding of their owne blood it is best to conclude as we haue said before That it is not the payne nor the torment that doth make the righteous martyr except we should say that diuers contrary messaungers are sent from one master the which is notoriously false for that good king from whom the truth doth come in deede hath so good a memorie that he doth neuer send contrary messangers but rather his faythful seruauntes doo al with one voyce and one accorde honour him as the father of our Sauiour Iesus Christe ¶ The .34 Chapter SOme of your godly sect to verifie that the vocation of your ministery doth come of God doo set before our eyes the holynes of those newe Christians that is to say how they neuer sweare but yea for yea and no for no that they do no wrōg to no man that they do neither rob nor steale but that they are cōtent with that that god hath sent thē that they ar very charitable to the poore then seeing that our Sauior doth say that one shal know the tree by the fruit we ought to cōfes sai they that the tree being good the fruit is good that is to say their religion is good seing that by the grace of god it doth produce such swete pleasant fruit I answer you first to this that our sauior doth not geue general rules but that that most commonly doth happen as when he sayth that of the abundāce of the hart the mouth speaketh woulde you affyrme by this that his meaning was vniuersally God forbid that he that is the author of al truth should meane so starke a lye Do you not remember what speach he did vse to the Phariseys when he said This people do honor me with their mouthes but their harts are farre from me you see that this sentence is contrarie to the other if you do not vnderstand it as I haue said that is to say that many times a mā doth vtter that that is in his hart as a Ruffian takes great pleasure to talke of quarels a proude person to talke of hautie enterprises a couetous man to talke of ryches or gaynes and so it is of al other sinnes But with al this a man may not affyrme truly that hypocrisie doth neuer reigne in their harts whose mouthes are ful of Gods word The Iudges of S. Susan had not they God and his lawes in their mouthes and the diuel in their hartes We haue a law said the Iewes and Pharisees agaynst Christ and according to this lawe giuen vs by Moyses he ought to dye The zeale of Iustice did sound in their mouthes and hatefull enuy did dwell in their hartes And therefore you see many times that man doth speake contrary to that that he thinketh and euen so it is of the sentence of our Sauiour whē he sayth that by the fruite one shall know the tree For many times naturally the fruite is good although the tree be worth nothing as the famous liues and workes of diuers heathen Philosophers doo witnesse of whom the holynes and scrupulositie of conscience was suche that I do beleeue assuredly that at the day of Iudgmēt a great number of Christians which leade Paynims liues wil be confounded with the example of those men that knew not god Thus of the first the fruite is good but the trees are worth nothing for their religion was false Idolatrous applying as S. Paul doth say the trueth of God to vnrighteousnes And as for the secōd the trees are good beeing graft vppon the true Catholique Religion but the fruites doo degenerate from the stocke ¶ The .35 Chapter IF that the sence of this Prouerbe be harde for you to disgest I am content to stay vntill your stomacke be somewhat better assuring myself that you can interprete it no waye vnto your aduauntage There is nothing more certaine then the good tree to beare good fruite if one doth not make him change his owne nature but if one doo graffe vpon it some Crabstocke
them Let the learned protestant bring foorth and shewe suche a Communion booke or anye leafe lyne or worde of any suche doctrine or any churche or congregation that euer had any authenticall seruice or ministration of the Sacraments other then that which is yet daylye openly practised in the cōmon knowen catholike churche of Christe And I shall then recant and not before Twelfth I demaunde of the learned protestant to knowe cause reason why their congregations do admit and receaue all Bishops priests deacons and other officers spirituall ordered by our catholike Churche as men lawfull and sufficient to preache the worde of God to minister the sacramentes and to exercise al spiritual Iurisdiction in no lesse wise but rather more then if they had bene ordered in their owne priuate congregations whereas the catholike churche of Christ doth not acknowledge any man of their ordering calling to be any whit the more fit for any spirituall function in Christ his church then other cōmon lay men When therfore the learned Protestant shal be able to shewe good cause and reason whye our Catholike Churche hauing by their owne consent and approuing lawfull priestes Bishops and spiritual ministers not to be also the lawful true and catholike churche of Christe I will then recant and not before Thirtene I require of the learned protestant to expresse what furniture furtherance or commoditie to the honor and seruice of God did christianitie or any part of Christendome receaue by his Churche or congregations what temple or churche did you build at any time for your assemblies and seruice of god what Bishopriks for the better gouernment of the church did you founde or procure what vniuersities schooles or colleges did you at any time erect for the maintenaunce of christian doctrine fayth and religion When the learned Protestant shal be able to proue by ecclesiasticall histories and olde auncient writers these thinges to be the monumentes of their conuenticles and priuate congregations of their fayth and religion and not of the common knowen fayth religion and catholike Churche of Christe Then I shal in like maner yeelde and recant and not before Fourthtene Let the learned Protestant name anye one felowship or companye of beleeuers in the whole christian worlde that in all Articles of faith and religion be in one vnitie in one meaning and beliefe and contented also to captiue submit their seuerall meaninges to the iudgementes of their prelates and spirituall gouernours and of one chiefe head and pastor among them in all ecclesiasticall thinges and causes Let I saye the learned protestant name any one company thus agreing among them selues and thus humblye affected in Christian fayth and religion sauing onely the holye and blessed felowship of the common knowen catholike churche of Christe And I will then recant and not before Fyftene Againe I doo demaunde of the learned protestant whether the Lutherans Zuinglians Illirians Caluinists Confessionists Swenkfeldians Anabaptists and suche like be al of one church and congregation or no And if he be able to proue these sectes being of such diuersitie in fayth and religion to make one church and that euery one of them may geue saluation to their felowes being so disagreable one with another in high misteryes and poyntes of fayth and religion or that I ought to beleeue all those rather then the one true catholike churche of Christe or yet anye of these more one then another all of them making such a bolde chalenge of the truth of Gods worde and Gospell When the learned protestant shall be able by good reason or drifte of argument to satisfye these my requestes Then I shall yeelde and recant and not before Sixtene when the protestant shall be able to proue that those persons which in their departure made from the catholike churche of Christe haue more desyre to beare the name of Sectaryes as of Lutherans Suinglians Illyrians Caluinists Swenkfeldians and Anabaptistes then the name of Christians or Catholikes are the true members of Christe his Churche and not heretikes and schismatikes nor yet folowers therein of their forefathers the Arrians whiche toke their names of Arrius the Maniches of Manes the Nestorians of Nestorius the Nouatians the Vigilians the Iouinians Pelagians Eutichians and others Then I shall yeeld recant and not before Seuenthtene I demaunde of the learned protestant whether if the whole space of that thousand yeres of blindnes wherein their Churche laye hid and vnknowen suppressed by papistrie superstition and Idolatrye as they terme it whether they whiche were then baptized and openly professed Christ wer saued or not If the Protestant doo aunswere yea consequently it foloweth that they were saued without the Church of Christe liuing in all ignorance superstition Idolatry as they say If he aunswer no and that there was no saluation out of their hid vnknowen Church then all men of all degrees yong and olde for the whole space of the foresayde thousand yeeres by the Protestants iudgement perished without all hope of Gods mercye and were damned When therefore the learned Protestant shall be able to proue by good reason and argument eyther that ther is a way to saluation without the Churche of Christe or that all people professing Christe perished for so many hundreth yeeres together Then I will recant and not before Eightene Let the learned Protestant make prouf vnto me how their hid vnknowen and secrete churche not hauing in it the doctrine of Christ his Gospell openlye taught no ministration of Sacramentes no spirite of prophecying no discipline of rod or correction no ordering of Bisshops priestes and ecclesiasticall ministers nor yet anye other spirituall function executed in the same for the space of one thousand yeres together Let him proue their hid vnknowen Churche with the lacke of all these thinges to be the true spouse and Catholike church of Christe And I will recant and not before Ninthtene Againe on the other side let the learned protestant proue that it is not the true Churche of Christe that hath in the face of the world for the space of fiftene hundred yeres past exercised preaching the cōuersion of nations to the obedience of the Gospell that hath alwayes had the administration of Sacraments the hearing of matters in controuersie the orderlye succession of Bishops the vniformitie of solemne Ceremonies and the vnitie of fayth that hath in her selfe all holye functions of the spirite as working of miracles remission of synnes the true sense and interpretation of Gods word that is beautifyed with diuersitie of states commended by Christe as with martyrs with confessors holye virgins such other Let the protestant proue vnto me that this is not the true churche and that we are not bound to obey beleue this church none other in all controuersies doubtes vprising eyther by the difficultie of scripture or by vain contention pride of heretikes and I wil yeld recant not before Twentie Moreouer let the