is not Infallible F. The Question was Which was that Church A Friend of the Ladies would needs defend That not only the Roman but also the Greek Church was right B. § 4 When that Honourable Personage answered I was not by to hear But I presume he was so far from granting that only the Roman Church was right as that he did not grant it right and that he took on him no other defence of the poor Greek Church then was according to truth F. I told him That the Greek Church had plainly changed and taught false in a Point of Doctrine concerning the Holy Ghost and that I had heard say that even his Majesty should say That the Greek Church having erred against the Holy Ghost had lost the Holy Ghost B. § 5 You are very bold with His Majesty to relate him upon Hear-say My intelligence serves me not to tell you what His Majesty said But if he said it not you have been too credulous to believe and too sudden to report it Princes deserve and were wont to have more respect then so If His Majesty did say it there is Truth in the speech the Errour is yours only by mistaking what is meant by losing the Holy Ghost For a particular Church may be said to lose the Holy Ghost two ways or in two degrees 1 The one when it loses such special assistance of that Blessed Spirit as preserves it from all dangerous Errours and sins and the temporal punishment which is due unto them And in this sense the Greek Church did perhaps lose the Holy Ghost for they erred against him they sinned against God And for this or other sins they were delivered into another Babylonish Captivity under the Turk in which they yet are and from which God in his mercy deliver them But this is rather to be called an Errour circa Spiritum Sanctum about the Doctrine concerning the Holy Ghost then an Errour against the Holy Ghost 2 The other is when it loses not only this assistance but all assistance ad hoc to this that they may remain any longer a true Church and so Corinth and Ephesus and divers other Churches have lost the Holy Ghost but in this sense the whole Greek Church lost not the Holy Ghost For they continue a true Church in the main substance to and at this day though Erroneous in this Point which you mention and perhaps in some other too F. The Ladies Friend not knowing what to answer called in the Bishop who sitting down first excused himself as one unprovided and not much studied in Controversies and desiring that in case he should fail yet the Protestant Cause might not be thought ill of B. § 6 This is most true For I did indeed excuse my self and I had great reason so to do And my Reason being grounded upon Modesty for the most part there I leave it Yet this it may be fit others should know that I had no information where the other Conferences brake off no instruction at all what should be the ground of this third Conference nor the full time of four and twenty hours to bethink my self And this I take upon my Credit is most true whereas you make the sifting of these and the like Questions to the very Bran your daily work and came throughly furnished to the business and might so lead on the Controversie to what your self pleased and I was to follow as I could S. Augustine said once Scio me invalidum esse I know I am weak and yet he made good his Cause And so perhaps may I against you And in that I preferr'd the Cause before my particular Credit that which I did was with modesty and according to Reason For there is no reason the weight of this whole Cause should rest upon any one particular man And great reason that the personal defects of any man should press himself but not the Cause Neither did I enter upon this service out of any forwardness of my own but commanded to it by Supreme Authority F. It having an hundred better Scholars to maintain it then he To which I said there were a thousand better Scholars then I to maintain the Catholike Cause B. § 7 In this I had never so poor a Conceit of the Protestants Cause as to think that they had but an hundred better then my self to maintain it That which hath an hundred may have as many more as it pleases God to give and more then you And I shall ever be glad that the Church of England which at this time if my memory reflect not amiss I named may have far more able Defendants then my self I shall never envy them but rejoyce for her And I make no question but that if I had named a thousand you would have multiplied yours into ten thousand for the Catholike Cause as you call it And this confidence of yours hath ever been fuller of noise then proof But you proceed F. Then the Question about the Greek Church being proposed I said as before that it had erred B. § 8 Then I think the Question about the Greek Church was proposed But after you had with confidence enough not spared to say That what I would not acknowledge in this Cause you would wring and extort from me then indeed you said as before that it had erred And this no man denied But every Errour denies not Christ the Foundation or makes Christ deny it or thrust it from the Foundation F. The Bishop said That the Errour was not in Point Fundamental B. § 9 Num. 1 I was not so peremptory My speech was That divers Learned men and some of your own were of Opinion that as the Greeks expressed themselves it was a Question not simply Fundamental I know and acknowledge that Errour of denying the Procession of the Holy Ghost from the Son to be a grievous Errour in Divinity And sure it would have grated the Foundation if they had so denied the Procession of the Holy Ghost from the Son as that they had made an inequality between the Persons But since their form of speech is That the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father by the Son and is the Spirit of the Son without making any difference in the Consubstantiality of the Persons I dare not deny them to be a true Church for this though I confess them an erroneous Church in this particular Num. 2 Now that divers Learned men were of Opinion that à Filio and per Filium in the sense of the Greek Church was but a Question in modo loquendi in manner of speech and therefore not Fundamental is evident The Master and his Scholars agree upon it The Greeks saith he confess the Holy Ghost to be the Spirit of the Son with the Apostle Galat. 4. and the Spirit of Truth S. John 16. And since Non est aliud it is not another thing to say The Holy Ghost is the Spirit of the Father and
have considered this too And I can take the Printing and Approving the Copies of Holy-Writ in these two senses And I can and do make a difference between Copies printed and approved by meer moral men and men assisted by Gods Spirit And yet for the Printing only a skilful and an able moral man may do better service to the Church than an illiterate man though assisted in other things by God's Spirit But when I have considered all this what then The Scripture being put in writing is a thing visibly existent and if any error be in the Print 't is easily corrigible by former Copies Tradition is not so easily observed nor so safely kept And howsoever to come home to that which A. C. infers upon it namely That the Tradition of the present Church may be accepted in these two senses And if this be all that he will infer for his pen here is troubled and forsakes him whether by any check of Conscience or no I know not I will and you see have granted it already without more ado with this Caution That every Company of men assisted by Gods Spirit are not assisted to this height to be Infallible by Divine Authority Num. 28 For all this A. C. will needs give a needless Proof of the Business Namely That there is the Promise of Christs and his Holy Spirits continual presence and assistance S. Luke 10. 16. Mat. 28. 19 20. Joh. 14. 16. not only to the Apostles but to their Successors also the lawfully sent Pastors and Doctors of the Church in all Ages And that this Promise is no less but rather more expresly to them in their Preaching by word of mouth than in writing or reading or printing or approving of Copies of what was formerly written by the Apostles And to all this I shall briefly say That there is a Promise of Christ's and the Holy Spirits continual presence and assistance I do likewise grant most freely that this Promise is on the part of Christ and the Holy Ghost most really and fully performed But then this Promise must not be extended further than 't was made It was made of Continual presence and assistance That I grant and it was made to the Apostles and their Successors That I grant too But in a different Degree For it was of Continual and Infallible Assistance to the Apostles But to their Successors of Continual and fitting assistance but not Infallible And therefore the lawfully sent Pastors and Doctors of the Church in all Ages have had and shall have Continual Assistance but by A. C's leave not Infallible at least not Divine and Infallible either in writing reading printing or approving Copies And I believe A. C. is the first that durst affirm this I thought he would have kept the Popes Prerogative intire that He only might have been Infallible and not He neither but in Cathedrâ sate down and well advised And well advised Yes that 's right But he may be sate and not well Advised even in Cathedrâ And Now shall we have all the Lawfully sent Pasters and Doctors of that Church in all ages Infallible too Here 's a deal of Infallibility indeed and yet error store The truth is the Jesuites have a Moneths mind to this Infallibility And though A. C. out of his bounty is content to extend it to all the lawfully sent Pastors of the Church yet to his own Society questionless he means it chiefly As did the Apologist to whom Casaubon replies to Fronto Ducaeus The words of the Apologist are Let day and night life and death be joyned together and then there will be some hope that Heresle may fall upon the person of a Jesuite Yea marry this is something indeed Now we know where Infallibility is to be found But for my present Occasion touching the Lawfully sent Pastors of the Church c. I will give no other Confutation of it then that M. Fisher and A. C. if they be two men are lawfully sent Pastors and Doctors of the Church at least I am sure they 'll assume they are and yet they are not Infallible which I think appears plain enough in some of their errors manifested by this Discourse and elsewhere Or if they do hold themselves infallible let them speak it out as the Apologist did Num. 29 As for the Three Places of Scripture which A. C. cites they are of old alledged and well known in this Controversie The First is in S. Luke 10. where Christ saith He that heareth you heareth me This was absolutely true in the Apostles who kept themselves to that which was reavealed by Christ. But it was to be but Conditionally true in their Successors He that heareth you heareth me That is so long and so far as you speak my words and not your own For where the Command is for Preaching the Restraint is added Go saith Christ and teach all Nations But you may not preach all things what you please but all things which I have commanded you The Publication is yours the Doctrine is mine And where the Doctrine is not mine there your Publication is beyond or short of your Commission The Second Place is in S. Mat. 28. There Christ says again I am with you always unto the end of the world Yes most certain it is present by his Spirit For else in bodily presence He continued not with his Apostles but during his abode on Earth And this Promise of his Spiritual Presence was to their Successors else why to the end of the World The Apostles did not could not live so long But then to the Successors the Promise goes no farther then I am with you always which reaches to continual assistance but not to Divine and Infallible Or if he think me mistaken let him shew me any One Father of the Church that extends the sense of this Place to Divine and Infallible Assistance granted hereby to all the Apostles Successors Sure I am Saint Gregory thought otherwise For he says plainly That in those Gifts of God which concern other mens salvation of which Preaching of the Gospel is One the Spirit of Christ the Holy Ghost doth not always abide in the Preachers be they never so lawfully sent Pastors or Doctors of the Church And if the Holy Ghost doth not always abide in the Preachers then most certainly he doth not abide in them to a Divine Infallibility always The Third Place is in S. John 14 where Christ says The Comforter the Holy Ghost shall abide with you for ever Most true again For the Holy Ghost did abide with the Apostles according to Christs Promise there made and shall abide with their Successors for ever to comfort and preserve them But here 's no Promise of Divine Infallibility made unto them And for that Promise which is made and expresly of Infallibility Saint John 16. though not cited by A. C. That 's confined
ordinarily have Tradition to prepare the mind of a man to receive it And in the next place where he speaks so sensibly That Scripture cannot bear witness to it self nor one part of it to another that is grounded upon Nature which admits no created thing to be witness to it self and is acknowledged by our Saviour If I bear witness to my self my witness is not true that is is not of force to be reasonably accepted for Truth But then it is more than manifest that Hooker delivers his Demonstration of Scripture alone For if Scripture hath another proof nay many other proofs to usher it and lead it in then no Question it can both prove and approve it self His words are So that unless besides Scripture there be c. Besides Scripture therefore he excludes not Scripture though he call for another Proof to lead it in and help in assurance namely Tradition which no man that hath his brains about him denies In the two other Places Brierly falsifies shamefully for folding up all that Hooker says in these words This other means to assure us besides Scripture is the Authority of Gods Church he wrinkles that Worthy Author desperately and shrinks up his meaning For in the former place abused by Brierly no man can set a better state of the Question between Scripture and Tradition than Hooker doth His words are these The Scripture is the ground of our Belief The Authority of man that is the Name he gives to Tradition is the Koy which opens the door of entrance into the knowledge of the Scripture I ask now When a man is entred and hath viewed a house and upon viewing likes it and upon liking resolves unchangeably to dwell there doth he set up his Resolution upon the Key that let him in No sure but upon the Goodness and Commodiousness which he sees in the House And this is all the difference that I know between us in this Point In which do you grant as you ought to do that we resolve our Faith into Scripture as the Ground and we will never deny that Tradition is the Key that lets us in In the latter place Hooker is as plain as constant to himself and Truth His words are The first outward Motive leading men so to esteem of the Scripture is the Authority of Gods Church c. But afterwards the more we bestow our Labour in reading or learning the Mysteries thereof the more we find that the thing it self doth answer our received opinion concerning it so that the former inducement prevailing somewhat with us before doth now much more prevail when the very thing hath ministred farther Reason Here then again in his Judgment Tradition is the first Inducement but the farther Reason and Ground is the Scripture And Resolution of Faith ever settles upon the Farthest Reason it can not upon the First Inducement So that the State of this Question is firm and yet plain enough to him that will not shut his eyes Num. 26 Now here after a long silence A. C. thrusts himself in again and tells me That if I would consider the Tradition of the Church not only as it is the Tradition of a Company of Fallible men in which sense the Authority of it as himself confesses is but Humane and Fallible c. But as the Tradition of a Company of men assisted by Christ and his Holy Spirit in that sense I might easily sinde it more than an Introduction indeed as much as would amount to an Infallible Motive Well I have considered The Tradition of the present Church both these ways And I find that A. C. confesses That in the first sense the Tradition of the Church is meer humane Authority and no more And therefore in this sense it may serve for an Introduction to this Belief but no more And in the second sense as it is not the Tradition of a Company of men only but of men assisted by Christ and His Spirit In this second sense I cannot finde that the Tradition of the present Church is of Divine and Infallible Authority till A. C. can prove That this Company of men the Roman Prelates and their Clergy he means are so fully so clearly so permanently assisted by Christ and his Spirit as may reach to Infallibility to a Divine Infallibility in this or any other Principle which they teach For every Assistance of Christ and the Blessed Spirit is not enough to make the Authority of any Company of men Divine and infallible but such and so great an Assistance only as is purposely given to that effect Such an Assistance the Prophets under the Old Testament and the Apostles under the New had but neither the High-Priest with his Clergy in the Old nor any Company of Prelates or Priests in the New since the Apostles ever had it And therefore though at the intreaty of A. C. I have considered this very well yet I cannot no not in this Assisted sense think the Tradition of the present Church Divine and Infallible or such Company of men to be worthy of Divine and infallible Credit and sufficient to breed in us Divine and Infallible Faith Which I am sorry A. C. should affirm so boldly as he doth What That Company of men the Roman Bishop and his Clergy of Divine and Infallible Credit and sufficient to breed in us Divine and Infallible Faith Good God! Whither will these men go Surely they are wise in their generation but that makes them never a whit the more the Children of Light S. Luk. 16. And could they put this home upon the world as they are gone far in it what might they not effect How might they and would they then Lord it over the Faith of Christendom contrary to S. Peters Rule whose Successors certainly in this they are not But I pray if this Company of men be infallibly assisted whence is it that this very Company have erred so dangerously as they have not only in some other things but even in this Particular by equaling the Tradition of the present Church to the written Word of God Which is a Doctrine unknown to the Primitive Church and which frets upon the very Foundation it self by justling with it So belike he that hath but half an indifferent eye may see this Assisted Company have erred and yet we must wink in obedience and think them Infallible Num. 27 But A. C. would have me consider again That it is as easie to take the Tradition of the present Church in the two fore-named senses as the present Scriptures printed and approved by men of this Age. For in the first sense The very Scriptures saith he considered as printed and approved by men of this Age can be no more than of Humane Credit But in the second sense as printed and approved by men assisted by God's Spirit for true Copies of that which was first written then we may give Infallible Credit to them Well I
that Patriarchs Jurisdiction as it was then practised And he says expresly That according to the old Custome the Roman Patriarchs Charge was confined within the Limits of the Suburbicarian Churches To avoid the force of this Testimony Cardinal Peron lays load upon Ruffinus For he charges him with Passion Ignorance and Rashness And one piece of his Ignorance is That he hath ill translated the Canon of the Councel of Nice Now be that as it may I neither do nor can approve his Translation of that Canon nor can it be easily proved that he purposely intended a Translation All that I urge is that Ruffinus living in that time and Place was very like well to know and understand the Limits and Bounds of that Patriarchate of Rome in which he lived Secondly here 's That it had potentiorem a more powerful Principality than other Churches had And that the Protestants grant too and that not only because the Roman Prelate was Ordine primus first in Order and Degree which some One must be to avoid Confusion But also because the Roman Sea had won a great deal of Credit and gained a great deal of Power to it self in Church-Affairs Because while the Greek yea and the African Churches too were turbulent and distracted with many and dangerous Opinions the Church of Rome all that while and a good while after Irenaeus too was more calm and constant to the Truth Thirdly here 's a Necessity say they required That every Church that is the faithful which are every where agree with that Church But what simply with that Church what ever it do or believe No nothing less For Irenaeus adds with that Church in quâ in which is conserved that Tradition which was delivered by the Apostles And God forbid but it should be necessary for all Churches and all the faithful to agree with that Ancient Apostolike Church in all those Things in which it keeps to the Doctrine and Discipline delivered by the Apostles In Iraeneus his time it kept these better than any other Church and by this in part obtained potentiorem Principalitatem a Greater power than other Churches but not over all other Churches And as they understand Irenaeus a Necessity lay upon all other Churches to agree with this but this Necessity was laid upon them by the Then Integrity of the Christian Faith there professed not by the Universality of the Roman Jurisdiction now challenged And let Rome reduce it self to the Observation of Tradition Apostolike to which it then held and I will say as Irenaeus did That it will be then necessary for every Church and for the Faithful every where to agree with it Lastly let me Observe too That Irenaeus made no doubt but that Rome might fall away from Apostolical Tradition as well as other Particular Churches of great Name have done For he does not say in quâ servanda semper erit sed in quâ servata est Not in which Church the Doctrine delivered from the Apostles shall ever be entirely kept That had been home indeed But in which by God's Grace and Mercy it was to that time of Irenaeus so kept and preserved So we have here in Irenaeus his Judgment the Church of Rome then Entire but not Infallible And endowed with a more powerful Principality than other Churches but not with an Universal Dominion over all other Churches which is the Thing in Question Num. 14 But to this place of Irenaeus A. C. joyns a Reason of his own For he tells us the Bishop of Rome is S. Peter's Successor and therefore to Him we must have recourse The Fathers I deny not ascribe very much to S. Peter But 't is to S. Peter in his own person And among them Epiphanius is as free and as frequent in extolling S. Peter as any of them And yet did he never intend to give an Absolute Principality to Rome in S. Peter's right There is a Noted Place in that Father where his words are these For the Lord himself made S. Peter the first of the Apostles a firm Rock upon which the Church of God is built and the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against it c. For in him the Faith is made firm every way who received the Key of Heaven c. For in him all the Questions and Subtilties of the Faith are sound This is a great Place at first sight too and deserves a Marginal Note to call young Readers eyes to view it And it hath this Note in the Old Latine Edition at Paris 1564. Petri Principatus Praestantia Peters Principality and Excellencie This Place as much shew as it makes for the Roman Principality I shall easily clear and yet do no wrong either to S. Peter or the Roman Church For most manifest it is That the Authority of S. Peter is urged here to prove the Godhead of the Holy Ghost And then follow the Elogies given to S. Peter the better to set off and make good that Authority As that he was Princeps Apostolorum the Prince of the Apostles and pronounced blessed by Christ because as God the Father revealed to him the Godhead of the Son so did he again the Godhead of the Holy Ghost After this Epiphanius calls Him solidam Petram a solid Rock upon which the Church of God was founded against which the Gates of Hell should not prevail And adds That the Faith was rooted and made firm in him every way in him who received the Key of Heaven And after this he gives the Reason of all Because in Him mark I pray 't is still in Him as he was blessed by that Revelation from God the Father S. Mathew 16. were found all the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the very Nice-Cities and exactness of the Christian Faith For he professed the Godhead of the Son and of the Holy Ghost And so Omni modo every Point of Faith was rooted in Him And this is the full meaning of that Learned Father in this passage Now therefore Building the Church upon Saint Peter in Epiphanius his sense is not as if He and his Successors were to be Monarchs over it for ever But it is the edifying and establishing the Church in the true Faith of Christ by the Confession which S. Peter made And so He expresses himself elsewhere most plainly Saint Peter saith he who was made to us indeed a solid Rock firming the Faith of our Lord. On which Rock the Church is built juxta omnem modum every way First that he Confessed Christ to be the Son of the Living God and by and by he heard Upon this Rock of solid Faith I will build my Church And the same Confession he made of the Holy Ghost Thus was S. Peter a solid Rock upon which the Church was founded omni modo every way That is the Faith of the Church was ‖ confirmed by him in every Point But that S. Peter was any
any Christian be offended that there should be a good end of Controversies Can you think of a better end than by a General Councel And if you have a most Gracious King inclined unto it as you say it was offered how can you acquit your selves if you do not consent Now here A. C. marvels what kinde of General Councel I would have and what Rules I would have observed in it which are morally like to be observed and make an end of Controversies better then their Catholike General Councels Truly I am not willing to leave A. C. unsatisfied in any thing Nor have I any meaning to trouble the Church with any New Devisings of mine Any General Councel shall satisfie me and I presume all good Christians that is lawfully called continued and ended according to the same course and under the same Conditions which General Councels observed in the Primitive Church which I am sure were Councels General and Catholike what ever yours be But I doubt that after all noise made about these Requisite Conditions A. C. and his Fellows will be found as much if not more defective in performance of the Conditions than in the Conditions themselves Well the Jesuite goes on for all this F. I asked the B. whether he thought a General Councel might erre He said it might B. § 31 I presume you do not expect I should enter into the Proof of this Controversie Whether a General Councel may erre in Determination or not Your self brought no Proof that it cannot and till that be brought my speech is good that it can and yet I hope to be found no Infringer of any Power given by Christ to his Church But it seems by that which follows you did by this Question Can a General Councel erre but seek to win ground for your other which follows F. If a General Councel may erre what nearer are we then said I to unity after a Councel hath determined Yes said he although it may erre yet we should be bound to hold with it till another come to reverse it B. § 32 Num. 1 Whether a General Councel may erre or not is a Question of great Consequence in the Church of Christ. To say it cannot erre leaves the Church not onely without Remedy against an Errour once determined but also without sense that it may need a Remedy and so without care to seek it which is the misery of the Church of Rome at this day To say it can erre seems to expose the members of the Church to an uncertainty and wavering in the Faith to make unquiet Spirits not onely to disrespect former Councels of the Church but also to slight and contemn whatsoever it may now Determine into which Errour some Opposers of the Church of Rome have fallen And upon this is grounded your Question Wherein are we nearer to unity if a Councel may erre But in relating my Answer to this you are not so candid for my words did not sound as yours seem to do That we should hold with the Councel erre or not erre till another came to reverse it As if Grounds of Faith might vary at the Racket and be cast of each side as a cunning hand might lay them Num. 5 You forget again omit at least and with what minde you best know the Caution which I added For I said The Determination of a General Councel erring was to stand in force and to have External Obedience at the least yeelded to it till Evidence of Scripture or a Demonstration to the Contrary made the Errour appear and until thereupon another Councel of equal Authority did reverse it And indeed I might have returned upon you again If a General Councel not Confirmed by the Pope may erre which you affirm to what end then a General Councel And you may answer Yes For although a General Councel may erre yet the Pope as Head of the Church cannot An excellent means of Unity to have all in the Church as the Pope will have it what ever Scripture say or the Church think And then I pray to what end a General Councel Will his Holiness be so holy as to confirm a General Councel if it determine against him And as for Bellarmines Reasons why a General Councel should be useful if not necessary though the Pope be Infallible they are so weak in part and in part so unworthy that I am sorry any necessity of a bad Cause should force so Learned a man to make use of them Num. 3 Here A. C. tels me The Caution mentioned as omitted makes my Answer worse then the Jesuite related it And that in two things First in that the Jesuite relates it thus Although it may erre but the Caution makes it as if it did actually erre Secondly in that the Jesuite relates That we are bound to hold it till another come to reverse it that is we not knowing whether it do erre or not but onely that it may erre But the Caution puts the Case so as if the Determination of a General Councel actually erring were not ipso jure invalid but must stand in force and have external Obedience yeelded to it till not onely moral Certainty but Evidence of Scripture or a Demonstration to the Contrary make the errour appear And when it appears we must yeeld our Obedience till a Councel of equal Authority reverse it which perhaps will not be found in an whole Age. So either the Jesuite relates this speech truly or less disgracefully And A. C. thinks that upon better Judgement I will not allow this Caution Truly I shall not thank the Jesuite for any his kindness here And for the Caution I must and do acknowledge it mine even upon advisement and that whether it make my Answer worse or better And I think farther that the Jesuite hath no great Cause to thank A. C. for this Defence of his Relation Num. 4 First then the Jesuite so says A. C. doth in his Relation make it but a supposition That a General Councel may erre But the Caution expresses it as actually erring True But yet I hope this Expression makes no General Councel actually erre And then it comes all to one whether I suppose that such a Councel may erre or that it do erre And 't is fitter for clearing the Difficulties into which the Church falls in such a Case to suppose and more then a supposition it is not a General Councel actually erring then as only under a Possibility of Erring For the Church hath much more to do to vindicate it self from such an Errour actually being than from any the like Errour that might be Num. 5 Secondly A. C. thinks he hath got great advantage by the words of the Caution in that I say A General Councel erring is to stand in force and have external Obedience at least so far as it consists in silence Patience and forbearance yeelded to it till Evidence of Scripture or a Demonstration