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sense_n	father_n	scripture_n	word_n	4,658	5	4.5238	4	true

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A13159	A briefe replie to a certaine odious and slanderous libel, lately published by a seditious Iesuite, calling himselfe N.D. in defence both of publike enemies, and disloyall subiects, and entitled A temperate wardword, to Sir Francis Hastings turbulent Watchword wherein not only the honest, and religious intention, and zeale of that good knight is defended, but also the cause of true catholike religion, and the iustice of her Maiesties proceedings against popish malcontents and traitors, from diuers malitious imputations and slanders cleered, and our aduersaries glorious declamation answered, and refuted by O.E. defendant in the challenge, and encounters of N.D. Hereunto is also added a certaine new challenge made to N.D. in fiue encounters, concerning the fundamentall pointes of his former whole discourse: together with a briefe refutation of a certaine caluminous relation of the conference of Monsieur Plessis and Monsieur d'Eureux before the French king ...	Sutcliffe, Matthew, 1550?-1629.	1600 (1600)	STC 23453; ESTC S117866	358,520	534

e Matth. 28. gaue them in charge To teach what he had commaunded them The f Gal. 1. apostle pronounceth him Accursed that should teach otherwise then the Galatians had receiued By the law of Moses the Sanedrin or chiefe tribunal in Hierusalem had soueraigne authority in iudgement yet might not those iudges pronounce sentence g Deut. 17. But according to the law of God The which doth argue that popish religion is built vpon groundes most absurd and contrarie to religion Finally some do stand much vpon ancient fathers and councelles and the first churches practise and haue not doubted to attribute much vnto them But now finding by experience that these do not much make for them and that the fathers themselues do wholy relie vpon the scriptures they flie wholie to the authority of the pope and to the late church of Rome and perceiue that vnlesse they may sit iudges in their owne cause the same cannot stand But héerein it may plainly appeare that they are no catholikes For ancient catholikes attributed most to scriptures and vsed the testimony of fathers and of the ancient church to declare the true sence and meaning of scriptures But a S●ss 4. conci● Tr●d these admit no sence But that of holy church as they call it which is nothing but the priuate fancy of so●e foolish pope Fourthly as in the foundations of Christian religion so likewise in diuers points of faith the papists do plainly declare themselues to bée no catholikes For first in the obiect of faith they mainly differ true catholikes beléeue in God onely Faith saith the b Rom. 10. apostle is by hearing and hearing by the worde of God c De diuin nomin c. 7. Dionyse saith That faith hath for his obiect the most pure and alwaies being truth that is God And euery Christian rehearsing his faith confesseth That he beleeueth in God the father the sonne and the holy ghost and in no creature But the papists beléeue in angels and in saints and call vpon them For as the d Rom. 10. apostle saith How shall they call on him on whom they haue not beleeued To them also they make confession of their sinnes and from them they looke for helpe and all things necessary as may bée shewed by infinite particulars Further they beléeue the determinations of the pope to be true and trust in him as in the rocke of the church e In opusc contra error Graecor Thomas Aquinas saith that it is a matter of faith to beleeue the determination of the pope Ad fidem pertinet saith he inhaerere determinationi pontificis summi in his quae sunt fidei imò in his quae spectant ad bonos more 's And this is also the opinion of f Summa Siluest in verb. fides Siluester Prierius They beléeue also whatsoeuer is taught by the church of Rome Ad fidem pertinent omnia quae sunt in doctrina ecclesiae saith g Ibidem Siluester Prierius and hée gathereth the same out of h 2.2 q. 5. art 3. Thomas Aquinas and that is their common opinion holding the traditions of the church in equal estimation with the worde of God all which can neuer bée prooued to haue béene beléeued by true catholikes For neither can it bée shewed that in publike liturgies they haue called on saints and on angels as the church of Rome teacheth or confessed their sinnes to them or beléeued in the pope or church of Rome Againe true catholikes beléeue that Christ Iesus was true man and had a body like to ours in height bredth thicknesse and that he filled the place where hée was as do our bodies We must beleeue saith a De essentia diuinitatis Augustine that the sonne of God according to his deitie is inuisible incorporeall and incircumscriptible but according to his humane nature that he is visible corporeall and locall b Contra Eutych lib. 4. c. 4. Vigilius saith That Christ is contained in a place according to his humane nature and that this is the catholike faith Illud corpus saith c Dialog 2. Theodoret habet priorem formā figuram circumscriptionē vt semel dicam corporis substantiam So likewise saith d Ad Thrasimund li. 2. c. 5. Fulgentius Siverū est corpus Christi loco potest vtique contineri But the papists do assigne him a body inuisible impalpable and such a one as is incircum scriptible and without the dimensions of height bredth depth A bodie that may be conteined in infinite places at once yet not continued to it selfe as is the nature of Continua quantitas Finally a mans whole body that is without all qualities of a body may be contained in euery little part of a consecrate hoste increasing and diminishing at the priestes pleasure Further euery catholike Christian beléeueth that our Sauiour Christes true body is ascended into heauen and there remaineth e Ioan. 16. Hée tolde his disciples before his passion That he must leaue the worlde and go to the father And in another place f Iohn 12. That they should not alwaies haue him with thē In the first of the Acts we learne That hee is taken vp from vs into heauen And the apostle S. g Act. 3. Peter doth plainely declare That the heauens must conteine him vntill the time that all things be restored And this also the fathers plainely teach vs According to his diuine nature saith h In Matth. tractat 33. Origen he is not absent frō vs but he is absent according to the dispensatiō of his body which he tooke i Lib. 10. super Luc. 24. S. Ambrose saith That neither on the earth nor in the earth nor after the flesh we ought to seeke Christ if we will finde him Saint Augustine saith k Tractat. 50. in Ioan. Hee hath caried his bodie into heauen although he hath not withdawne his maiestie from the worlde l Homil. 21. in euangel Gregory the first doth plainly affirme That Christ is not heere by the presence of his flesh The flesh of Christ saith Vigilius writing against Eutyches lib. 4. c. 4. when it was in earth surely was not in heauen and now because it is in heauen certainly it is not in earth Neither did euer any ancient father teach otherwise But the papists do teach that Christes true body and flesh is both in heauen and earth and vpon euery altar at one time and that hee is touched and receiued not of men onely but also of mise and dogs and other beasts which to true catholikes séemeth not onely absurd but also abominable All true catholikes firmely beléeue that th●●r sinnes are forgiuen them for Christ his sake and that they shall atteine eternall life according to these two articles of the créed which euery one professeth saying Credo remissionem peccatorum vitam aeternam God he Hath promised and sworne as the a Heb. 6.

authenticall and preferred before the originall bookes of the old testament in Hebrew and of the new testament in Gréeke a matter very new and most vnreasonable and plainely contradictory to the ancient fathers In the same a Sess 4. councell because they would be sure of their groundes the doctors of the Romish Babylon decréed first that none should interpret Scriptures against that sence that the church of Rome holdeth and secondly that vnwritten traditions kept in the church by succession shoulde bee of equall value with canonicall Scriptures After this diuers friers and priests taking vpon them to plead the popes cause haue determined vnwritten traditions and customes of the church and the popes determinations and decretalles to be the foundations and principles of their popish faith b Loc. Theolog. Melchior Canus speaking of theologicall argumentes and Thomas Stapleton taking vpon him to declare which be vndoubted principles of popish doctrine do both principally relie vpō these two They talke also of the church of councels fathers the latin translation and of rules of faith But when it commeth to the triall then whatsoeuer is not consonant to the popes doctrine and decretales that is reiected as of no value Now gladly would I haue any Iesuite that taketh himselfe to be learned for our aduersary is but a babler to prooue these groundes to be ancient Let him shew what those traditions are that are with equall reuerence to the canonicall scriptures to be receiued Let him iustifie by testimony of antiquitie that the popes decretalles are infallible rules of faith The apostle saith that the church is well and strongly built vpon the foundation of the apostles and prophets Iesus Christ béeing the corner stone and this foundation do all ancient fathers allow The testimony of Irenei and Athanasius I haue before alleadged Saluianus saith the church is best founded on scripture Videtur nostra ecclesia saith he c Lib. de prouid Dei 5. ex vna scriptura felicius instituta Aliae habent illam aut debilem aut conuulneratam Habent veterem magistrorum traditionem corruptam per hoc traditionem potius quàm scripturam habent Let him shew the like if he can of his decretals and traditions vnlesse he will haue his grounds to be condemned for new and naught Thirdly scriptures were neuer generally forbidden to be publikely read in vulgar toongs before the councell of Trent neither was it euer thought vnlawfull before that time for lay men to talke of matters of faith or to read scriptures priuately without the ordinaries licence Chrysostome and other ancient fathers were wont to exhort Christians to read scriptures and Christ our sauiour willed his hearers to search them and the apostle doth declare them to be very profitable which sheweth the practise of the Romish church in fraying men from scriptures to be of a late humour and inuention Fourthly the definition of the Romish church is new and of force made new to fit their new popish fancies a De eccles milit c. 2. Bellarmine defineth the church to be A company of men conioyned in one profession of faith and communion of sacraments vnder the gouernement of lawfull pastors and especially of the pope of Rome Which is neither to be shewed nor prooued out of any ancient authenticall writer For the easterne and Africane churches did neuer acknowledge this souereine authority of the pope Nor did our sauiour or his apostles teach vs any such obedience Nay they shew rather that the bishops of Rome are not to be obeyed For suppose Peter had béene bishop of Rome and the bishops of Rome his successors which will neuer be prooued in that sence as the aduersaries take it yet Paul resisted Peter and receiued no b Ibid. c. 9. authority nor grace from him which sheweth that other bishops haue no dependance or authority from the bishop of Rome albeit this proportion were granted Fiftly they make not the catholike church A communion of saintes as we professe in our créede but h●ld that all wicked men and c Ibid. c. 10. heretickes so they outwardly communicate with the church of Rome in faith and sacraments are true mēbers of the church d Ibid. c. 2. Bellarmine saith That to make a man a part of the true church neither faith nor charitie nor any inward vertue is required Which is a méere new fancie and therefore receiued least they shoulde grant that the church in some respect shoulde be inuisible Sixtly the cōfession of faith made by Pius quartus wherin al that take degrees in schoole professe a Conf●t 28. That they firmely admit all ecclesiasticall traditions and constitutions and the Scriptures according to the Romish sence and beleeue that there are seuen sacraments and receiue the doctrine of the councell of Trent concerning originall sinne and beleeue the sacrifice of the masse and transubstantiation and the popes soueraine authority and other pointes of doctrine therein conteined is new and absurd This we shal other where declare that appeareth for that the papistes cannot produce any precedent of this confession or prooue the seuerall points of it by good argument 7. Where in our creede we beléeue the catholike church of late time the papistes haue added a word made it b Confess ●urdega●ens The catholike Romaine church and in Canisius catechisme translated into Spanish by Hieronymo Campos they define him to be no catholike that beléeueth any thing beside that which the church of Rome beléeueth 8. They confesse their sinnes not to God almighty as do the ancient fathers but to the a Virgine Mary c Hortulus animae and to angels and saints 9. They haue of late b put out that commandement d Officium beatae Maria in catech that concerneth the making of grauen images like to God and worshipping them wherein they haue the worde of God and all antiquitie against them 10. In the doctrine of the law all those points wherein they shew thēselues no catholikes of which wée haue spoken in the former chap. are meere nouelties as namely That all that is repugnant to the law of God is not sinne that it is mortall sinne to breake the popes lawes or commandements either concerning rites of the church or other matter which he doth vnder his curse will men to obserue that concupiscence in the regenerate is no sinne and yet that it is sinne not to faste the ember daies that the regenerate may be without sinne and that Christians may be iustified by the lawe of Moyses that the popes lawes binde in conscience and that he hath authoritie to make lawes and lastly that the law of God is not perfect but that wée are to obserue all the traditions of the church and the popes decretals 11. It is not long since they began to teach that othes do not so binde men but that the pope can dispence with them and that he is able to discharge children from

in these Iohn 21. Feede my lambes feede my sheepe In the wordes written by Matthew he telleth vs That the principalitie of the church is promised to Peter as the words themselues do shew and the consent of ancient fathers both Greeke and Latine doth expound In the latter hée saith Peter was made pastor generall of all Christes flocke as both the words themselues do import and all antiquitie with one consent hath euer taken the sense to be And this is the commission these are the recordes these the proofes which he vanteth of But if hée acquit not himselfe the better he will be taken and conuicted for a forger of false patents and commissions for a falsifier of recordes and for a corrupter of fathers and a vaine pretender of antiquitie And all that read his vaine writings with iudgement will condemne him woorthie if not to haue his eares clipped because our procéeding is not before the tribunall of iudges yet to haue his coxcombe pared for crowing and crying so loude and so proudly vpon so little cause For first the wordes of Christ are not Thou art Peter or a Rocke As hée forgeth changing a proper name into a noune appellatiue but simply Thou art Peter Secondly he confesseth himselfe that Christ in the first place giueth nothing but onely promiseth Now it is no warrant for any to alledge a promise of a commission vnlesse he canne prooue an act passed or else exhibite the commission it selfe Thirdly nothing is here promised to Peter but the keyes of the church But those keyes are common not onely to the apostles but also to all true pastors and successors of the apostles and therefore cannot signifie any sole monarchicall or supreme gouernement of the whole church Fourthly suppose that Peter were in this place promised to be made the rocke and foundation of the church which as the fathers expound it was onely in respect of his confession or of Christ the rocke which he confessed yet that is no priuiledge nor matter properly belonging to Peter but a common graunt made to all the apostles who in respect of their doctrine and after a sort may be termed the a Ephes 2. Apoc. 21. foundation of the church Fiftly it cannot be shewed that any gréeke or latin fathers do so expound the wordes Matth. 16. as if Christ meant to giue to Peter the sole monarchicall gouernement of the church Let them speake in their owne wordes and he shall perceiue it to be as I say Nay it appeareth by Bellarmine himselfe that no such matter canne be prooued by the fathers Sixtly Christ saying to Peter feed my sheepe and redoubling his charge thrée times gaue him not any new authority but rather stirred him vp to the execution of his office and sought to draw from him a thréefould confession to answere his former thréefould deniall And so saith Nazianzen in Orat. in sanct epiph lumina and Cyrill vpon Iohn Lib. 12. c. 44. and Augustin tract 123. in Ioan. de vtilit poenit c. 1. serm 149. de tempore Seuenthly the charge of féeding was as well committed to all the apostles Matth 28. as to Peter Iohn 21. Lastly not one of the fathers doth by these wordes prooue that Peter was ordeined the monarchicall and sole supreme gouernour of the church Saint b In c. vlt. Luc. Ambrose saith That Peter was preferred before all the apostles but he speaketh not of his office or function but of loue affection For speaking of all the apostles he saith c Ibidem Similiter praedicandi his per totum orbem mandat officium Saint d In c. Ioan. vlt. Augustine saith onely That Christ committed his sheepe to be fedde of Peter But so hée did also commit them to be fedde of the rest of the apostles when he gaue them authoritie to teach all nations e In c. 21. Ioan. Chrysostome saith That Christ committed to Peter the care of his brethren but we may not imagine that other apostles were carelesse or had no care committed to them neither may we imagine that all are supreme and sole gouernors that haue care committed to them Epiphanius doth a In Anchirat testifie That Christ committed his sheepefold to Peter So do the holy scriptures testifie that the apostles had all commission to féede Christes shéepe and to gouerne his folde But saith our wise aduersarie b P. 101. These wordes Pasce ouesmeas were spoken to Peter in preeminence and highest degree But Saint c De simplic Praelat Cyprian and d C. In nouo dist 21. Anacletus that were wiser then he make all the apostles equall in power and apostolicall dignitie and the common commission giuen to all doth prooue them equall And least any might surmise that the apostles receiued any power from Peter the apostle e Gal. 1. 2. Saint Paule saith hée had his authoritie from God and not from man and Receiued nothing from the rest of the apostles Most vaine therefore and foolish is all this our aduersaries discourse concerning the supposed monarchie of Peter But whatsoeuer is to be supposed of Peter yet that concerneth the pope of Rome that is more like to Nero and Heliogabalus then Peter iust nothing For he is not the Rocke of which Christ speaketh he hath not the keies of heauen deliuered vnto him hée féedeth not Christes shéepe nor liueth in poore estate and contempt nor suffereth persecution as did the holie apostle saint Peter But saith the woordy Warder our aduersarie All the christian worlde hath made euer this most certaine and infallible deduction that Christ gaue not Saint Peter these eminent prerogatiues for himselfe alone but for his posteritie and successors also that should ensue him in his seat to the worlds end As if whatsoeuer Saint Peter had must necessarily descend to his counterfect successors the popes of Rome Beside that the vanitie of this bragge of all the christian worlde and of the infallibilitie of this collection may appéere in diuers particulars First it is cléere that diuers of Peters prerogatiues were personall as to haue his name changed to bée called Cephas to worke miracles to speake with toongs to confesse Christ thrée times and such other like And therefore strange it is that this ignorant fellow durst either talke of all the christian worlde wherein he is but a stranger or woulde say that all the christian world beléeued these prerogatiues of Peter to belong to the popes of Rome Secondly it can neuer be prooued that Peter had or that the worlde beléeued that hée had power to depose kings to translate kingdomes to dispence with othes to grant pardons to release out of purgatorie to heare appeales out of all the worlde and such like points of the popes power Thirdly admit Peter had apostolicall power ouer the whole worlde yet neither was that proper to Peter nor did any sounde doctor of the church or true Christian imagine that whatsoeuer belonged to

put foorth the constitutions of the apostles vnder the name of Clement which sauour nothing of the apostles diuine spirite and are likely to be the deuises of heretikes Thirdly they haue most shamefully corrupted the councels and haue not onely forged diuers new actes and péeces of actes but also newe councels In the sixt councell of Carthage the popes agents exhibited a counterfeit canon of the councell of Nice and were conuicted k Acta synodi Carth. 6. of that falshoode by authenticall copies sent from other churches Pius Quintu● when the emperour repined for that hée had made Cosmus of Florence duke of Tuscane alleaged for himselfe a forged canon of the councell of Nice E sentenza saith he l Girol Caten in literis Pij quinti. di tutti theologi è canonisti determinatione di concilij massimamente del Niceno che ' l successor di San Pietro sia signore rettore di tutti i principi del nome Christiano de tutte le prouincie tutte le genti anathematizando chiunque cio ardisse contradire Parsons may do well to exhibite this canon where the pope is made Lorde of all princes and prouinces and all excommunicated that dare say contrarie vnlesse hée will haue his holy father condemned of impious forgerie Ruffine and other authors say there were but twentie canons made in that councel But these good fellowes by a counterfeit letter of Athanasius woulde bring in a great number more Carranza saith many more canons were there established Where the second councell of Constantinople a C. 36. decréed that the sea of Constantinople shoulde bée equall to the sea of old Rome as appeereth by the actes both in Greeke and Latine in their b C. Renouantes dist 22. c. antiqua extr de priuileg decrées the popes haue turned this canon quite contrarie as if that councell had decréed that the sea of Constantinople shoulde not bée equall to old Rome The councell of c Carthag 6. c. 105. Carthage decréed against the church of Rome Vt qui ad transmarma putauerit appellandum à nullo ad communionem intra Africam reciperetur But Gratian in the chap. Placuit 2. q. 6. addeth these wordes Nisi fortè Romanam sedem appellauerit out of a certaine councell of Carthage that woulde haue priestes to abstaine from their wiues in proprijs terminis in the chap. Placuit dist 32. they haue put out proprijs terminis In the d Can. 35. councell of Laodicea where the worship of angels is forbidden they haue turned angelos into angulos and so marred the whole sence To end this point vnder the name of Syluester Syricius Gelasius and other popes they haue forged whole councels whereof in authenticall writings there is neither proo●e nor memoriall to bée found Fourthly their manifolde corruptions of the writings of the fathers cannot in fewe wordes bée described First vnder the names of fathers they haue published most childish toies vaine fables and vnlearned patcheries as by their additions to the works of Cyprian Origen Athanasius Basill Ambrose Hierome Augustine Chrysostome Gregorie and diuers others is euidently testified For Caesar Baronius Bellarmine and others do in part confesse so much and if they shoulde not yet woulde the stile and doctrine diuers from that of the fathers to whom they are ascribed conuince these treatises to bee misbegotten and not to belong to the fathers whose name they beare yet are they offended with those that censure these counterfeit sermons orations and treatises and cease not to vse them Next they haue taken diuers wordes lines and sometimes whole chapters out of the fathers writings and vnder colour of correcting haue quite corrupted the fathers As appéereth by their Rubarbatif or as they cal them expurgatorie indexes that are daily increased and may bée prooued further by comparing the old bookes with the newe editions approoued by the Cananites and Iebusites that cannot endure either truth or the professors thereof Another practise also they haue to abuse and disgrace the fathers of the church that they adde wordes now and then and alter the text of their true writings as also comparison of bookes will ●asily shew Fiftly vnder the names of the ancient bishops of Rome they haue published méere fooleries and false constitutions refuted plainly by the stories of the times wherein they liued by the estate of that church in time of persecution and by the barbarousnesse of the Gothike language wherein they are written sauoring of otherages and authors then those whose names they beare Of this stampe are the epistles that carrie the names of Clement Anacletus Euaristus Alexander Telesphorus Hyginius Pius and such like Sixtly for the enlarging of their dominion and authoritie the popes haue set out l C. Constantinus dist 96. first a false donation surmised to bée made by Constantine and therein they say hée gaue them Rome Italy France Germany and all the west empire and also most ample priuileges authoritie A matter so false and vaine as it may bée woondred with what sa●e the popes can alleage so manifest a forgery being contradicted by the m Socrat. hist lib. 3. c. vlt. S●xt Aurel. Victor Zosimus emperour Constantines testament and by ancient histories by the state of the Romaine bishops for many yéeres after and by the brutish and barbarous fashion and frame of the instrument and therfore disallowed euen by the n Antonin 1. part hist tit 8. c. 1. Cusanus de concord cathol 3. aduersaries themselues that haue either modesty or learning They haue also set out another donation vnder the name of o Ego Ludouicus dist Ludouicus almost to the same purpose but yet not so large as the other That the same is forged it may appéere both for that it contradicteth Constantines donation and for that the two diuers copies that are p Volater Geograph lib. 3. extant do contradict one another For writings that are diuers and derogatorie one to another make no strong proofe Scripturae diuersae fidem sibi inuicem derogantes nihil habere firmitatis possunt as saith the q L. scripturae Cod. de fid instrument emperour Neither can two contrarie propositions bée taken for true as lawyers holde l. s●is qui. § vtrum ff de reb dub l. vbi pugnantia ff de regulis iuris To giue colour also to the counterfect clayme made by the popes of Rome for their vniuersall power euer the whole Church they haue r Cod. de sum trinit fide cath l. inter claras thrust a counterfect epistle of Iustinian the Emperour and an epistle of Iohn bishop of Rome among the imperiall lawes of the Code whereby they would prooue that the Emperour here did subiect himselfe and the church of Constantinople to the bishop of Rome and made him head of the church That these letters are forged it may appéere First for that they are not found in

here obiected that Hieroms words in Ezech. cap. 4. make nothing against prayers to saints But it must be remēbred that the cōtrouersie here was not whether M. Plessis had well concluded out of that ●lace but whether he had rightly alleaged it Beside that we answer that it is no weake argument to conclude thus we must not trust in the prayers of men and therefore are not to rely vpon the prayers of men departed this life Finally writing vpon the epistle to the Galathians c Hierome doth flatly condemne prayers made to Saints departed and for dead men b Lib. 2. in epist ad Galat. Obscurè licèt docemur saith he per hanc sententiam nouum dogma quod latitat 〈◊〉 praesenti seculo sumus siue orationibus siue consilijs inui● posse nos coadiuuare Cum autem ante tribunal Christi venerimus non Iob non Daniel nec Noe rogare posse pro quoquam sed vnumquemque portare onus suum He saith when we are here we may helpe one another signifying that men departed this world can neither helpe others nor be holpen by prayers of others The sixt place which the Lord of Plessis was charged to haue corrupted was drawne out of Cyril contra Iulianum lib. 6. And why was he charged thinke you Forsooth because hée alleaged him to proue that adoration was not to be yeelded to the signe of the crosse But herein there could not be any falsification vsed and that first for that he did not alleage the authors words and secondly for that he doth well conclude according to Cyrils meaning For where Iulian obiected to Christians that they worshipped the crosse Cyril answereth that these words proceeded of bad thoughts and extreme ignorance So likewise saith Minutius Felix in his apology cruces nec adoramus nec optamus That is we neither worship nor desire crosses The seuenth place was out of Petrus Crinitus where the L. of Plessis is charged to leaue out the word humi alleaging the law of Theodosius and Valens against the making of the signe of the crosse But his accusers should haue remembred that he did alleage not the words as now they are found in bookes falsified by idolaters and crosse-worshippers but out of Petrus Crinitus which citeth the law out of authenticall records Our wise relator here to make the matter séeme more heinous saith he falsified the law of Theodosius Valens Iustinian as if they had béene ioynt authors of that law when as Iustinian was not yet in the world when that law was made Neither is it much materiall if Tribonian in the Emperours name had put in the word humi For we are rather to rely vpon the originals then vpon Tribonians honestie that put words in and out and altered lawes at pleasure Neither was the law of Theodosius and Valens to be reputed new albeit the word Humi had béene left out séeing both Epiphanius and the councell of Eliberis in Spaine and diuers other fathers had condemned paintings of images The eight place was taken out of S. Bernard Epist 174. she needeth no false honors saith Bernard speaking of the virgin Mary being as she is at the fulnesse therof Againe he saith that it was no honour but a taking away of honor and that the feast of her conception was neuer well instituted Here his accuser charged the Lord of Plessis to haue omitted these words Magnifica gratiae inuentricem mediatricem salutis restauratricem seculorum As if it were necessarie where diuers places are alleaged out of one authour to write out all that commeth betwixt one other This is a new trick of Eureux who albeit he He hath set out a treatise to proue this position hold the scriptures to be insufficient and therein hath tried his poore talent of writing yet would haue more then is sufficient alleaged out of fathers and other authours Beside that the Lord of Plessis alleaging the authoritie of Bernard doth not dissemble in what estéeme he held the holy virgin Mary Finally he alleaged Bernard not as an authentical witnesse but as a man fauouring his aduerse party whose confession is strong against the papists but not for them béeing nourished in monasticall errours and superstitions Nay the papists themselues doe not allow all Bernards opinions for they celebrate our Ladies cōception which he disallowed and do not hold our Lady to be mediatricem salutis as he termeth her but rather mediatricem intercessionis and yet giue her such extrauagant honour as both he and Epiphanius writing against the heretikes called Collyridians much misliked The last place was taken out of Theodoret. God doth what he pleaseth saith a In Psal 113. hée But images are made as pleaseth men they haue the places of senses but they haue no sense Héere M. Plessis was charged first for translating Simulachra or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 images and next for leauing out these words à gentibus culta As if euery one that did translate amisse were to be charged with falsification or as if all bad translations in the old Latin interpreter of the bible were so many falsifications Beside that hée offred to prooue and most true it is that euery image hauing idolatrous or heathenish worship done to it is idolum Isai 40. where the old Latine interpretor hath Simulachrum the Gréeke worde is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and Deuter. 4. that word which the Latine interpreter translateth Simulachrum the Gréeke interpreter translateth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Neither do either Gréeke or Latine authors of any antiquitie put such a difference betwixt the wordes Simulachrum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and imago as our papistes do To the second it was answered that the wordes à gentibus culta being set downe in the allegation do rather hurt then helpe the papistes that worship images with kissing crouching censing praying as the Gentiles did their idols Those reasons therefore that are forcible against the idols of the Gentiles are also most forcible against the popish worship of images which is more grosse idolatrie in some pointes then that of the heathens For they neuer did giue that worship that is due to the originall to the image But the idolatrous papistes with one worship honour the holy Trinitie and the image of the Trinitie made by a painter our Sauiour Christ and a woodden crucifixe And yet this woodden relator is bounde to defende this woodden cause If then the aduersarie coulde not get any grounde of M. Plessis in these places which were chosen as principall and placed first as places of most aduantage we may well suppose if the triall had procéeded that hée woulde haue receiued farre more disgrace in the rest CHAP. III. That our aduersaries haue no such great cause as they imagine to boast of their victorie in the conference passed betwixt the Lord of Plessis and Eureux BY this which hath béene spoken it may sufficiently appéere that the papistes had no great reason to make