one will deny Christian Magistrates to have that Power Since the Commission of the Law of Nature to Magistrates being only that general one of doing Good according to the best of their Judgments if that extends to the use of Force in Matters of Religion it will abundantly more oppose than promote the True Religion if Force in the case has any Efficacy at all and so do more harm than good Which though it shews not what you here demand that it can not do any Service towards the Salvation of Mens Souls for that cannot be shewn of any thing yet it shews the Disservice it does is so much more than any Service can be expected from it that it can never be proved that God has given Power to Magistrates to use it by the Commission they have of doing Good from the Law of Nature But 〈◊〉 you tell me Till I have 〈◊〉 that Force and Penalties cannot do any Service towards â—…he Saâ—…ation of Souls there will be no occaâ—…ion for the Caution I gave you not to be wiser than our Maker in that stupendous and supernatural Work you have forgot your own 〈◊〉 That it is not enough to authorize the use of Force that it may be useful if it be not also necessary And when you can prove such Means necessary which though it cannot be shewn never upon any occasion to do any Service yet may be and is abundantly shewn to do so little Service and so uncertainly that if it be used it will if it has any Efficacy do more harm than good If you can I say prove such a Means as that necessary I think I may yield you the Cause But the use of it has so much certain Harm and so little and uncertain Good in it that it can never be suppos'd included or intended in the general Commission to the Magistrates of doing good Which may serve for an Answer to your next Paragraph Only let me take notice that you here make this Commission of the Law of Nature to extend the use of Force only to induce those who would not otherwise to hear what may and ought to move them to imbrace the Truth They have heard all that is offered to move them to imbrace i. e. believe but are not moved Is the 〈◊〉 by the Law of Nature commission'd to punish them for what is not in their Power for Faith is the Gift of God and not in a Man's Power Or is the Magistrate commission'd by the Law of Nature which impowers him in general only to do them good Is he I say commission'd to make them lie and 〈◊〉 that which they do not believe And is this for their good If he punish them till they imbrace i. e. believe he punishes them for what is not in their Power if till they imbrace i. e. barely prosess he punishes them for what is not for their good To neither of which can he be commission'd by the Law of Nature To my saying Till you can shew us a 〈◊〉 in Scripture it will be fit for us to obey that 〈◊〉 of the Gospel Mark 4. 24. which bids us take â—…eed what we 〈◊〉 You reply That this you suppose is only intended for the 〈◊〉 Reader For it ought to be renderd Attend to what you hear which you prove out of 〈◊〉 What if I or my Readers are not so learned as to understand either the Greek Original or 〈◊〉 Latin Comment Or if we did are we to be blamed for understanding the Scripture in that Sense which the National i. e. as you say the True Reliâ—…ion authorizes and which you tell us would be a Fault in us if we did not believe For if as you suppose there be sufficient Provision made in England for instructing all Men in the Truth we cannot then but take the Words in this Sense it being that which the Publick Authority has given them for if we are not to follow the Sense as it is given us in the Transtation authorized by our Governors and used in our Worship establish'd by Law but must seek it elsewhere 't will be hard to find how there is any other Provision made for instructing Men in the Sense of the Scripture which is the Truth that must save them but to leave them to their own Inquiry and Judgment and to themselves to take whom they think best for Interpreters and Expounders of Scripture and to quit that of the True Church which she has given in her Translation This is the Liberty you take to differ from the True Church when you think â—…it and it will serve your purpose She says take take what you hear but you say the true Sense is 〈◊〉 to what you hear Methinks you should not be at such variance with Distenters for after all nothing is so like a Nonconformist as a Conformist Though it be certainly every one's Right to understand the Scripture in that Sense which appears truest to him yet I do not see how you upon your Principles can depart from that which the Church of England has given it but you I ndâ—… when you think fit take that Liberty and so much Liberty as that would I think satisfy all the 〈◊〉 in England As to your other place of Scripture if St. Paul as it seems to me in that Xth to the Romans were shewing that the Gentiles were provided with all things necessary to Salvation as well as the Jews and that by having Men sent to them to preach the Gospel that Provision was made what you say in the two next Paragraphs will shew us that you understand that the Greek Word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifies both Hearing and Report but does no more answer the Force of those two Verses against you than if you had spared all you said with your Greek Criticism The Words of St. Paul are these How then shall they call on him on whom they have not believed And how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard And how shall they hear without a Preacher And how shall they preach except they be sent So then Faith cometh by Hearing and Hearing by the Word of God In this Deduction of the Means of propagating the Gospel we may well suppose St. Paul would have put in Miracles or Penalties if as you say one of them had been necessary But whether or no every Reader will think St. Paul set down in that place all necessary Means I know not but this I am consident he will think that the New Testament does and then I ask Whether there be in it one word of Force to be used to bring Men to be Christians or to hearken to the good Tidings of Salvation offer'd in the Gospel To my asking What if God for Reasons best known to Himself would not have Men compell'd You answer If he would not have them compell'd now Miracles are ceased as far as moderate Penalties compel otherwise you are not concern'd
judges to be true judges of Truth for others But you prove that a Man may be Judg of Truth without having Authority to judg of it for other Men or to prescribe to them what they shall believe which you might have spared till you meet with some body that denies it But yet your proof of it is worth remembring Rectum say you est Index sui obliqui And certainly whoever does but know the Truth may easily judg whether other Men be alienated from it or no. But tho Rectum be Index sui obliqui yet a Man may be ignorant of that which is the right and may take Error for Truth The Truth of Religion when known shews what contradicts it is false but yet that Truth may be unknown to the Magistrate as well as to any other Man But you conclude I know not upon what ground as if the Magistrate could not miss it or were surer to find it than other Men. I suppose you are thus favourable only to the Magistrate of your own Profession as no doubt in Civility a Papist or a Presbyterian would be to those of his And then infer And therefore if the Magistrate knows the Truth though he has no Authority to judg of Truth for other Men yet he may be Judg whether other Men be alienated from the Truth or no. Without doubt who denies it him 'T is a Privilege that he and all Men have that when they know the Truth or believe the Truth or have embraced an Error for Truth they may judg whether other Men are alienated from it or no if those other Men own their Opinions in that matter You go on with your Inference And so may have Authority to lay some Penalties upon those whom he sees to be so Now Sir you go a little too fast This he cannot do without making himself Judg of Truth for them The Magistrate or any one may judg as much as he pleases of Mens Opinions and Errors he in that judges only for himself but as soon as he uses Force to bring them from their own to his Opinion he makes himself Judg of Truth for them let it be to bring them to judg more sincerely for themselves as you here call it or under what pretence or colour soever for that what you say is but a Pretence the very Expression discovers For does any one ever judg insincerely for himself that he needs Penalties to make him judg more sincerely for himself A Man may judg wrong for himself and may be known or thought to do so But who can either know or suppose another is not sincere in the Judgment he makes for himself or which is the same thing that any one knowingly puts a mixture of Falshood into the Judgment he makes For as speaking insincerely is to speak otherwise than one thinks let what he says be true or false so judging insincerely must be to judg otherwise than one thinks which I imagine is not very feasible But how improper soever it be to talk of judging insincerely for one's self it was better for you in that Place to say Penalties were to bring Men to judg more sincerely rather than to say more rightly or more truly for had you said the Magistrate might use Penalties to bring Men to judg more truly that very Word had plainly discovered that he made himself a Judg of Truth for them You therefore wisely chose to say what might best cover this Contradiction to your self whether it were Sense or no which perhaps whilst it sounded well every one would not stand to examine One thing give me leave here to observe to you which is That when you speak of the Entertainment Subjects are to give to Truth i. e. the true Religion you call it believing but this in the Magistrate you call knowing Now let me ask you Whether any Magistrate who laid Penalties on any who dissented from what he judged the true Religion or as you call it here were alienated from the Truth was or could be determined in his judging of that Truth by any Assurance greater than believing When you have resolved that you will then see to what purpose is all you have said here concerning the Magistrate's knowing the Truth which at last amounting to no more than the Assurance wherewith a Man certainly believes and receives a thing for true will put every Magistrate under the same if there be any Obligation to use Force whilst he believes his own Religion Besides if a Magistrate knows his Râ—…ligion to be true he is to use means not to make his People believe but know it also Knowledg of them if that be the way of entertaining the Truths of Religion being as necessary to the Subjects as the Magistrate I never heard yet of a Master of Mathematicks who had the care of informing others in those Truths who ever went about to make any one believe one of Euclid's Propositions The Pleasantness of your Answer notwithstanding what you say doth remain still the same for you making as is to be seen the Power of the Magistrate ORDAINED for the bringing Men to take such care as they ought of their Salvation the reason why it is every Man's Interest to vest this Power in the Magistrate must suppose this Power so ordained before the People vested it or else it could not be an Argument for their vesting it in the Magistrate For if you had not here built upon your fundamental Supposition that this Power of the Maâ—…istrate is ordained by God to that end the proper and intelligible way of expressing your meaning had not been to say as you do As the Power of the Magistrate is ordained for bringing c. so if we suppose this POWER vested in the Magistrate by the People in which way of speaking this Power of the Magistrate is evidently supposed already ordained But a clear way of making your meaning understood had been to say That for the People to ordain such a Power of the Magistrate or to vest such a Power in the Magistrate which is the same thing was their true Interest but whether it were your Meaning or your Expression that was guilty of the Absurdity I shall leave it with the Reader As to the other pleasant thing of your Answer it will still appear by barely reciting it the pleasant thing I charge on you is that you say That the Power of the Magistrate is to bring Men to such a care of their Salvation that they may not blindly leave it to the choice of any Person or their own Lusts or Passions to prescribe to them what Faith or Worship they shall imbrace and yet that 't is their best course to vest a Power in the Magistrate liable to the same Lusts and Passions as themselves to chuse for them To this you answer by asking where it is that you say that it is the Peoples best course to vest a Power in the Magistrate to
be very true notwithstanding that as I say some are called at the third Hour some at the ninth and some at the eleventh Hour and whenever they are called they embrace all the Truths necessary to Salvation At least I do not shew why it may not And therefore this may be no Slip for any thing I have said to prove it to be one This I take not to be an Answer to my Argument which was That since some are not called till the eleventh Hour no body can know who those are who would never acquaint themselves with those Truths that must save them without Force which is therefore necessary and may indirectly and at a distance do them some service Whether that was my Argument or no I leave the Readâ—…r to judg but that you may not mistake it now again I tell you here it is so and needs another Answer Your way of using Punishments in short is this That all that conform not to the National Church where it is true as in England should be punished What for To make them consider This I told you had something of Impracticable To which you reply That you used the word only in another Sense which I mistook Whether I mistook your meaning in the use of that Word or no or whether it was natural so to take it or whether that Opinion which I charged on you by that Mistake when you tell us That not examining is indeed the next end for which they are punished be not your Opinion let us leave to the Reader for when you have that Word in what sâ—…nse you please what I said will be nevertheless true viz. ` That to punish Dissenters as Dissenters to make them consider has something impracticable in it unless not to be of the National ` Religion and not to consider be the same thing These Words you answer nothing to having as you thought a great advantage of talking about my mistake of your word only Buâ—… unless you will suppose not to be of the National Church and not to consider be the same thing it will follow thâ—…t to punish Dissenters as Dissenters to make them consider has something of Impracticable in it The Law punishes all Dissenters For what To make them all conform that 's evident To what end To make them all consider say you That cannot be for it says nothing of it nor is it certain that all Dissenters have not considered nor is there any care taken by the Law to enquire whether they have considered when they do conform yet this was the End intended by the Magistrate So then with you it is practicable and allowable in making Laws for the Legislator to lay Punishments by Law on Men for an End which they may be ignorant of for he says nothing of it on Men whom he never takes care to enquire whether they have done it or no before he relax the Punishment which had no other next End but to make them do it But though he says nothing of considering in laying on the Penalties nor asks any thing about it when he takes them off yet every body must understand that he so meant it Sir Sancho Pancha in the Government of his Island did not expect that Men should understand his meaning by his gaping but in another Island it seems if you had the Management you would not think it to have any thing of Impracticable or Impolitick in it For how far the provision of Means of Instruction takes this off we shall see in another place And lastly to lay Punishments on Men for an End which is already attained for some among the Dissenters may have considered is what other Law-makers look on as impracticable or at least unjust But to this you answer in your usual way of Circle That if I suppose you are for punishing Dissenters whether they consider or no I am in a great mistake for the Dissenters which is my Word not yours whom you are for punishing are only such as reject the true Religion proposed to them with Reasons and Arguments sufficient to convince them of the Truth of it who therefore can never be supposed to consider those Reasons and Arguments as they ought whilst they persist in rejecting that Religion or in my Language continue Dissenters for if they did so consider them they would not continue Dissenters Of the Fault for which Men were to be punished distinguished from the End for which they were to be punished we heard nothing as I remember in the first Draught of your Scheme which we had in The Argument considered c. But I doubt not but in some of your general Terms you will be able to find it or what else you please for now having spoken out that Men who are of a different Religion from the true which has been tendred them with sufficient Evidence and who are they whom the wise and benign Disposer and Governour of all things has not furnished with competent Means of Salvation are Criminals and are by the Magistrate to be punished as such 't is necessary your Scheme should be compleated and whither that will carry you 't is easy to see But pray Sir are there no Conformists that so reject the â—…ue Religion and would you have them punished too as you here profess Make that practicable by your Scheme and you have done something to perswade us that your End in earnest in the Use of Force is to make Men consider understand and be of the True Religion and that the rejecting the true Religion tender'd with sufficient Evidence is the Crime which bonâ fide you would have punished and till you do this all that you may say concerning punishing Men to make them consider as they ought to make them receive the true Religion to make them imbrace the Truth that must save them c. will with all sober judicious and unbiassed Readers pass only for the Mark of great Zeal if it scape amongst Men as warm and as sagacious as you are a harsher Name whilst those Conformists who neglect Matters of Religion who reject the saving Truths of the Gospel as visibly and as certainly as any Dissenters have yet no Penalties laid upon them You talk much of considering and not considering as one ought of imbracing and rejecting the true Religion and abundance more to this purpose which all however very good and savoury Words that look very well when you come to the Application of Force to procure that End expressed in them amount to no more but Conformity and Non-conformity If you see not this I pity you for I would fain think you a fair Man who means well though you have not light upon the right way to the End you propose But if you see it and persist in your Use of these good Expressions to lead Men into a Mistake in this Matter consider what my Pagans and Mahometans could do worse to serve a bad Cause Whatever you may
will give you a Reason why I say so and that is Because no body can believe that upon your Principles you can allow any National Religion differing from that of the Church of England to be true and where the National Reliâ—…ion is not true we have already your Consent as in Spain and Italy c. for Toleration Now that you cannot without renouncing your own Principles allow any National Religion differing from that establish'd here by Law to be true is evident For why do you punish Nonconformists here To bring them say you to the True Religion But what if they hold nothing but what that other differing National Church does shall they be nevertheless punished if they conform not You will certainly say Yes and if so then you must either say they are not of the True Religion or else you must own you punish those to bring them to the True Religion whom you allow to be of the True Religion already You tell me If I own with our Author that there is but one True Religion and I owning my self to be of the Church of England you cannot see how I can avoid supposing that the National Religion now in England back'd by the publick Authority of the Law is the only True Religion If I own as I do all that you here expect from me yet it will not serve to draw that Conclusion from it which you do viz. That the National Religion now in England is the only True Religion taking the True Religion in the Sense that I do and you ought to take it I grant that there is but one True Religion in the World which is that whose Doctrine and Worship are necessary to Salvation I grant too that the True Religion necessary to Salvation is taught and professed in the Church of England and yet it will not follow from hence that the Religion of the Church of England as established by Law is the only True Religion if there be any thing established in the Church of England by Law and made part of its Religion which is not necessary to Salvation and which any other Church teaching and professing all that is necessary to Salvation does not receive If the National Religion now in England back'd by the Authority of the Law be as you would have it the only true Religion so the only true Religion that a Man cannot be saved without being of it Pray reconcile this with what you say in the immediately preceding Paragraph viz. That there are many other Countries in the World where my Toleration would be as little useful as in England For if there be other National Religions differing from that of England which you allow to be true and wherein Men may be saved the National Religion of England as now established by Law is not the only true Religion and Men may be saved without being of it And then the Magistrate can upon your Principles have no Authority to use Force to bring Men to be of it For you tell us Force is not lawful unless it be necessary and therefore the Magistrate can never lawfully use it but to bring Men to believe and practise what is necessary to Salvation You must therefore either hold that there is nothing in the Doctrine Discipline and Ceremonies of the Church of England as it is established by Law but what is necessary to Salvation Or else you must reform your Terms of Communion before the Magistrate upon your Principles can use Penalties to make Men consider till they conform or you can say that the National Religion of England is the only true Religion though it contain the only true Religion in it as possibly most if not all the differing Christian Churches now in the World do You tell us farther in the next Paragraph That where-ever this only true Religion i. e. the National Religion now in England is received all other Religions ought to be discouraged Why I beseech you discourag'd if they be true any of them For if they be true what Pretence is there for Force to bring Men who are of them to the true Religion If you say all other Religions varying at all from that of the Church of England are false we know then your measure of the one only true Religion But that your Care is only of Conformity to the Church of England and that by the true Religion you mean nothing else appears too from your way of expressing your self in thiâ—… Passage where you own that you suppose that as this only true Religion to wit the National Religion now in England back'd with the publick Authority of Law ought to be received where-ever it is preached so where-ever it is received all other Religions ought to be discouraged in some measure by the Civil Powers If the Religion establish'd by Law in England be the only true Religion ought it not be preached and received every where and all other Religions discouraged throughout the World and ought not the Magistrates of all Countries to take Care that it should be so But you only say where-ever it is preach'd it ought to be received and where-ever it is received other Religions ought to be discouraged which is well suted to your Scheme for inforcing Conformity in England but could scarce drop from a Man whose Thoughts were on the true Religion and the promoting of it in other Parts ' of the World Force then must be used in England and Penalties laid on Dissenters there For what to bring them to the true Religion whereby it is plain you mean not only the Doctrine but Discipline and Ceremonies of the Church of England and make them a part of the only true Religion Why else do you punish all Dissenters for rejecting the true Religion and use Force to bring them to it When yet a great if not the greatest part of Dissenters in England own and profess the Doctrine of the Church of England as firmly as those in the Communion of the Church of England They therefore though they believe the same Religion with you are excluded from the true Church of God that you would have Men brought to and are amongst those who reject the true Religion I ask whether they are not in your Opinion out of the way of Salvation who are not joined in Communion with the true Church and whether there can be any true Church without Bishops If so all but Conformists in England that are of any Church in Europe besides the Lutherans and Papists are out of the way of Salvation and so according to your System have need of Force to be brought into it and these too one for their Doctrine of Transubstantiation the other for that of Consubstantiation to omit other things vastly differing from the Church of England you will not I suppose allow to be of the true Religion And who then are left of the true Religion but the Church of England For the Abyssines have too wide a
Nonconformity are intended to make all Men consider where 't is known that a great Number under the Magistrates Power are dispensed with and privileged from those Penalties How many omitting the Jews are there for example in the King of England's Dominions under his Care and Power of the Walloon and French Church to whom Force is never apply'd and they live in Security from it How many Pagans are there in the Plantations many whereof born in His Dominions of whom there was never any care taken that they should so much as come to Church or be in the least instructed in the Christian Religion And yet must we believe or can you pretend that the Magistrates use of Force against Nonconformists is to make all his Subjects consider so as to be convinc'd of and imbrace the Truth that must save them If you say in your way you mean no such Indulgence I answer the Question is not of yours but the Magistrates Intention though what your Intention is who would have the want of Consideration or Knowledg in Conformists exempt from Force is visible enough Again Those Penalties cannot be supposed to be intended to make Men consider which are laid on those who have or may have already considered And such you must grant to be the Penalties laid in England on Nonconformists unless you will deny that any Nonconformist has or can consider so as to be convinced or believe and imbrace the Truth that must save him So that you cannot vouch the Intention of the Magistrate where his Laws say nothing much less affirm that Force is intended to produce a certain end in all his Subjects which is not applied to them all and is applied to some who have attained that end already Unless you have a Privilege to affirm against all appearance whatsoever may serve your Cause But to learn some Moderation in this I shall send you to my Pagans and Mahumetans For whatever charitable wishes Magistrates may sometimes have in their Thoughts which I meddle not with no Body can say that in making the Laws or in the use of Force we are speaking of they intended to mâ—…ke Men consider and examine so as to be convinced of and heartily to imbrace the Truth that must save them but he that gives himself the Liberty to say any thing The Service that Force does indirectly and at a distance you tell us in the following Page is to make People apply thâ—…mselves to the use of those Means and Helps which are proper to make them what they are designed to be In the Case before us What are Men designed to be Holy Believers of the Gospel in this World without which no Salvation no seeing of God in the next Let us see now whether Force your way applied can be suted to such a Design and so intended for that End You hold That all out of the National Church where the Religion of the National Church is true should be punished and ought to have Force used to them And again you grant That those who are in the Communion of the National Church ought not to be punished or be under the stroke of Force nor indeed in your way can they If now the effect be to prevail with Men to consider as they ought so that they may become what they are designed to be How can any one think that you and they who use Force thus intend in the use of it that Men should really be Christians both in Perswasion and Practice without which there is no Salvation if they leave off Force before they have attained that effect Or how can it be imagined that they intend any thing but Conformity by their use of Force if they leave off the use of it as soon as Men conform Unless you will say that an outward Conformity to the National Church whose Religion is the true Religion is such an imbracing of the Truth as is sufficient to Salvation Or that an outward Profession of the Christian Religion is the same with being really a Christian which possibly you will not be very forward to do when you recollect what you meet with in the Sermons and Printed Discourses of Divines of the Church of England concerning the Ignorance and Irreligion of Conformists themselves For Penalties can never be thought by any one but he that can think against common Sense and what he pleases to be intended for any End which by that Constitution and Law whereby they are imposed are to cease before that End be attained And will you say that all who are conformable have so well considered that they believe and heartily imbrace the Truths of the Gospel that must save them When perhaps it will be found that a great many Conformists do not so much as understand them But the Ignorance or Irreligiousness to be found amongst Consormists which your way of talking forces me in some Places to take notice of let me here tell you once for all I lay not the blame of upon Conformity but upon your use of Force to make Men conform For whatever the Religion be true or false it is natural for Force and Penalty so applied to bring the irreligious and those who are careless and unconcerned for the true into the National Profession But whether it be fitter for such to be kept out rather than by Force to be driven into the Communion of any Church and owned as Members of it those who have a due Care and Respect for truly religious and pious Conformists were best consider But farther if as you say the opposition to the true Religion lies only in Mens Lusts it having Light and Strength enough were it not for that to prevail and it is upon that account only that Force is necessary there is no necessity at all to use Force on Men only till they conform and no farther Since I think you will not deny but that the Corruption of Humane Nature is as great in Consormists as in Nonconformists in the Professors of as in the Dissenters from the National Religion And therefore either Force was not necessary before or else it is necessary still after Men are Conformists Unless you will say that it is harder for a Man to be a Professor than a Christian indeed And that the true Religion by its own Light and Strength can without the help of Force prevail over a Man's Lusts and the Corruption of his Nature but it has need of the help of Force to make him a Conformist and an outward Professor And so much for the Effect which is intended by him that uses it in that use of Force which you defend The other Argument you bring to shew that your indirect and at a distance Vsefulness of Force your way apply'd is not by accident is the frequent Success of it Which I think is not the true Mark of what is not by accident for an Effect may not be by accident though it has never been produced but once
the Church I mention it not to argue against it but against your Imposition and to shew that even that Creed though of that Antiquity though it contain in it all the Credenda necessary to Salvation cannot yet upon your Principles be imposed by the 〈◊〉 Power of the Magistrate who even by the Commission you have found out for him can use his Force for nothing but what is absolutely necessary to Salvation But if the Creed to be imposed be not in the Words of Divine Revelation then it is in plainer more clear and intelligible Expressions or not if no plainer what necessity of changing those which Men inspired by the Holy Ghost made use of If you say they are plainer then they explain and determine the Sense of some obscure and dubious Places of Scripture which Explication not being of divine Revelation though sound to one Man may be unsound to another and cannot be imposed as Truths necessary to Salvation Besides that this destroys what you tell us of the Obviousness of all Truths necessary to Salvation And as to Rites and Ceremonies are there any necessary to Salvation which Christ has not instituted if not how can the Magistrate impose them What Commission has he from the Care he ought to have for the Salvation of Mens Souls to use his coactive Force for the Establishment of any new ones which our Lord and Saviour with due Reverence be it spoken had forgotten He instituted two Rites in his Church Can any one add any new one to them Christ commanded simply to baptize in the Name of the Father the Son and the Holy Ghost but the signing of the Cross how came that necessary Humane Authority which is necessary to assist the Truth against the Corruption of humane Nature has made it so But 't is a decent Ceremony I ask Is it so decent that the Administration of Baptism simply as our Saviour instituted would be indecent without it If not then there is no Reason to impose it for Decency's sake for there can be no Reason to alter or add any thing to the Institution of Christ or introduce any Ceremony or Circumstance into Religion for Decency where the Action would be decent without it The Command to do all things decently and in Order gave no Authority to add to Christ's Institution any new Ceremony it only prescribed the manner how what was necessary to be done in the Congregation should be there done viz. after such a manner that if it were omitted there would appear some Indecency whereof the Congregation or collective Body was to be Judg for to them that Rule was given and if that Rule go beyond what I have said and gives Power to Men to introduce into Religious Worship whatever they shall think decent and impose the Use of it I do not see how the greatest part of the infinite Ceremonies of the Church of Rome could be complained of or refused if introduced into another Church and there imposed by the Magistrate But if such a Power were given to the Magistrate that whatever he thought a decent Ceremony he might de novo impose he would need some express Commission from God in Scripture since the Commission you say he has from the Law of Nature will never give him a Power to institute new Ceremonies in the Christian Religion which be they decent or what they will can never be necessary to Salvation The Gospel was to be preached in their Assemblies the Rule then was that the Habit Gesture Voice Language c. of the Preacher for these were necessary Circumstances of the Action should have nothing ridiculous or indecent in it The Praises of God were to be sung it must be then in such Postures and Tunes as became the Solemnity of that Action And so a Convert was to be baptized Christ instituted the essential part of that Action which was washing with Water in the Name of the Father Son and Holy Ghost in which Care was also to be had that in the doing this nothing should be omitted that preserved a Decency in all the Circumstances of the Action But no Body will say that if the Cross were omitted that upon that Account there would be any thing indecent in Baptism What is to be done in the Assemblies of Christians for the Salvation of Souls is sufficiently prescribed in Scripture But since the Circumstances of the Actions were so various and might in several Countries and Ages have different Appearances as that appears decent in one Country which is quite contrary in another concerning them there could be no other Rule given than what is viz. decently in Order and to Edification and in avoiding Indecenciâ—…s and not adding any new Ceremonies how decent soever this Rule consists I judg no Man in the Use of the Croâ—… in Baptism the Imposition of that or any other Ceremony not instituted by Christ himself is what I argue against and say is more than you upon your Principles can make good Because you think your Argument for the Magistrate's Right to use Force has not had its dâ—…e Consideration I shall here set it down in your own Words as it stands and indeavour to give you Satisfaction to it You say there If such a Degree of outward Force as has been mentioned be of great and even necessary Vse for the advancing those Ends as taking the World as we find it I think it appears to be then it must be acknowledged that there is a Right somewhere to use it for the advancing those Ends unless we will say what without Impiety cannot be said that the wise and benign Disposer and Governor of all things has not furnished Mankind with compeâ—…nt means for the proâ—…oring his own Honour in the World and the Good of Souls And if there be such a Right somewhere where should it be but where the Power of compelling resides That is principally and in reference to the Publick in the Civil Soveraign Which Words if they have any Argument in them it in short stands thus Force is useful and necessary the good and wise God who without Impiety cannot be supposed not to have furnished Men with competent means for their Salvation has therefore given a Right to some Men to use it and those Men are the Civil Soveraigns To make this Argument of any Use to your Purpose you must speak a little more distinctly for here you according to your laudable and safe way of Writing are wrapp'd up in the Uncertainty of general terms and must tell us besides the End for which it is useful and necessary to whom it is useful and necessary Is it useful and necessary to all Men That you will not say for many are brought to imbrace the true Religion by bare Preaching without any Force Is it then necessary to all those and those only who as you tell us reject the true Religion tendered with sufficient Evidence or at least so far manifested to them as to
for Matter of Religion You tell us you do not yet understand why Clergymen are not as capable of such Power as other Men Which Words of mine containing in them nothing but true matter of Fact give you no Reason to tax my Ingenuity Nor will what you alledg make it otherwise than such Power for if the Power you there speak of were externally coactive Power is not that the same Power the Author was speaking of made use of to those Ends he mentions of tormenting and punishing And do not you own that those who have that Power ought to punish those who offend in rejecting the true Religion As to the remaining Part of that Paragraph I shall leave the Reader to judg whether I sought any occasion so much as to name the Clergy or whether the itching of your Fingers to be handling the Rod guided not your Pen to what was nothing to the Purpose For the Author had not said any thing so much as tending to exclude the Clergy from secular Imployments but only if you will take your own Report of it that no Ecclesiastical Officer as such has any externally coactive Power whereupon you cry out that you do not yet understand why Ecclesiasticks or Clergymen are not as capable of such Power as other Men. Had you stood to be Constable of your Parish or of the Hundred you might have had Cause to vindicate thus your Capacity if Orders had been objected to you or if your Aim be at a Justice of the Peace or Lord Chief Justice of England much more However you must be allowed to be a Man of forecast in clear-ing the way to secular Power if you know your self or any of your Friends desirous of it Otherwise I confess you have Reason to be on this occasion a little out of Humour as you are for bringing this matter in Question so wholly out of Season Nor will I fear the ill-sitted Excuse you bring give your self or one who consults the Places in both yours and the Author's Letter a much better Opinion of it However I cannot but thank you for your wonted Ingenuity in saying that it seems I wanted an Occasion to shew my good Will to the Clergy and so I made my self one And to find more Work for the excellent Gift you have this way I desire you to read over that Paragraph of mine again and tell me whether you can find any thing said in it not true Any Advice in it that you your sâ—…lf would disown any thing that any worthy Clergyman that adorns his Function is concerned in And when you have set it down in my Words the World shall be Judg whether I have shewed any ill Will to the Clergy Till then I may take the Liberty to own that I am more a Friend to them and their Calling than those amongst them who shew their Forwardness to leave the Word of God to serve other Employments The Office of a Minister of the Gospel requires so the whole Man that the very looking after their Poor was by the joint Voice of the the twelve Apostles called leaving the Word of God and serving of Tables But if you think no Mens Faults can be spoken of without ill Will you will make a very ill Prcacher Or if you think this to be so only in speaking of Mistakes in any of the Clergy there must be in your Opinion something peculiar in their Case that makes it so much a Fault to mention any of theirs which I must be pardoned for since I was not aware of it And there will want but a little cool Reflection to convince you that had not the present Church of England a greater Number in Proportion than possibly any other Age of the Church ever had of those who by their pious Lives and Labours in their Ministry adorn their Profession such busy Men as cannot be content to be Divines without being Lay-men too would so little keep up the Reputation which ought to distinguish the Clergy or preserve the Esteem due to a Holy i. e. a separate Order that no Body can shew greater good Will to them than by taking all Occasions to put a Stop to any Forwardness to be medling out of their Calling This I suppose made a learned Prelate of our Church out of Kindness to the Clergy mind them of their Stipulation and Duty in a late Treatise and tell them that the Pastoral Care is to be a Man's entire Business and to possess both his Thoughts and his Time Disc. of Past. Care p. 121. To your saying That the Magistrate may lay Penalties upon those who refuse to imbrace your Doctrine of the proper Ministers of Religion or are alienated from the Truth I answered God never gave the Magistrate an Authority to be Judg of Truth for another Man This you gâ—…ant but withal say That if the Magistrate knows the Truth though he has no Authority to judg of Truth for another Man yet he may be Judg whether other Men be alienated from the Truth or no and so may have Authority to lay some Penalties upon those whom he sees to be so to bring them to judg more sincerely for themselves For Example The Doctrine of the proper Ministers of Religion is that the three Creeds Nice Athanasius's and that commonly call'd the Apostles Creed ought to be thorowly received and believed As also that the Old and New Testament contain all things necessary to Salvation The one of these Doctrines a Papist Subject imbraces not and a Socinian the other What now is the Magistrate by your Commission to do He is to lay Penalties upon them and continue them How long Only till they conform i. e. till they profess they imbrace these Doctrines for true In which Case he does not judg of the Truth for other Men he only judges that other Men are alienated from the Truth Do you not now admire your own Subtilty and Acuteness I that cannot comprehend this tell you my dull Sense in the Case He that thinks another Man in an Error judges him as you phrase it alienated from the Truth and then judges of Truth and Falshood only for himself But if he lays any Penalty upon others which they are to lie under till they embrace for a Truth what he judges to be so he is then so far a Judg of Truth for those others This is what I think to judg of Truth for another means If you will tell me what else it signifies I am ready to learn You grant you say God never gave the Magistrate any Authority to be Judg of Truth for another Man and then add But how does it follow from thence that he cannot be Judg whether any Man be alienated from the Truth or no And I ask you Who ever said any such thing did follow from thence That which I say and which you ought to disprove is That whoever punishes others for not being of the Religion he
your Opinion have Commission and are obliged to promote the true Religion by Force and they can be guided in the Discharge of this Duty by nothing but their own Opinion of the true Religion What Advantage can this be to the true Religion what Benefit to their Subjects or whether it amounts to any more than a Commission to every Magistrate to use Force for the promoting his own Religion To this Question therefore you will do well to apply your Answer which a Man of less Skill than you will be scarce able to do You tell us indeed that whatever the Magistrate's Opinion be his Power was given him as the Apostles Power was to them for Edification only and not for Destruction But if the Apostles Power had been given them for one End and St. Paul St. Peter and nine others of the twelve had had nothing to guide them but their own Opinion which led them to another End I ask you whether the Edification of the Church could have been carried on as it was You tell us farther that it may always be said of the Magistrate what St. Paul said of himself that he can do nothing against the Truth but for the Truth Witness the K. of France If you say this in the same Sense that St. Paul said it of himself who in all things requisite for Edification had the immediate Direction and Guidance of the unerring Spirit of God and so was infallible we need not go to Rome for an infallible Guide every Country has one in their Magistrate If you apply these Words to the Magistrate in another Sense than what St. Paul spoke them in of himself sober Men will be apt to think you have a great Care to insinuate into others a high Veneration for the Magistrate but that you your self have no over-great Reverence for the Scripture which you thus use nor for Truth which you thus defend To deny the Magistrate to have a Power to compel Men to his Religion But yet to say the Magistrate has a Power and is bound to punish Men to make them consider till they cease to reject the true Religion of which true Religion he must be Judg or else nothing can be done in Discharge of this his Duty is so like going round about to come to the same place that it will always be a Circle in mine and other Peoples Imagination and not only there but in your Hypothesis All that you say turns upon the Truth or Falshood of this Proposition That whoever punishes any one in Maâ—…ters of Religion to make him consider takes upon him to be Judg for another what is right in Matters of Religion This you think plainly involves a Contradiction and so it would if these general Terms had in your use of them their ordinary and usual meaning But Sir be but pleased to take along with you That whoever punishes any Man your way in Matters of Religion to make him consider as you use the word consider takes upon him to be Judg for another what is right in Matters of Religion and you will find it so far from a Contradiction that it is a plain Truth For your way of punishing is a peculiar way and is this That the Magistrate where the National Religion is the true Religion should punish those who dissent from it to make them consider as they ought i. e. till they cease to reject or in other words till they conform to it If therefore he punishes none but those who dissent from and punishes them till they conform to that which he judges the true Religion does he not take on him to judg for them what is the true Religion 'T is true indeed what you say there is no other reason to punish another to make him consider but that he should judg for himself and this will always hold true amongst those who when they speak of considering mean considering and nothing else But then these things will follow from thence 1. That in inflicting of Penalties to make Men consider the Magistrate of a Country where the National Religion is false no more misapplies his Power than he whose Religion is true for one has as much right to punish the Negligent to make them consider study and examine Matters of Religion as the other 2. If the Magistrate punishes Men in Matters of Religion truly to make them consider he will punish all that do not consider whether Conformists or Nonconformists 3. If the Magistrate punishes in Matters of Religion to make Men consider it is as you say to make Men judg for themselves for there is no use of considering but in order to judging But then when a Man has judg'd for himself the Penalties for not considering are to be taken off for else your saying that a Man is punished to make him consider that he may judg for himself is plain Mockery So that either you must reform your Scheme or allow this Proposition to be true viz. Whoever punishes any Man in Matters of Religion to make him in your sense consider takes upon him to judg for another what is right in Matters of Religion and with it the Conclusion viz. Therefore whoever punishes any one in Matters of Religion to make him consider takes upon him to do what no Man can do and consequently misapplies his Power of punishing if he has that Power Which Conclusion you say you should readily admit as sufficiently demonstrated if the Proposition before mentioned were true But further if it could enter into the Head of any Law-maker but you to punish Men for the omission of or to make them perform any internal Act of the Mind such as is Consideration Whoever in matter of Religion would lay an Injunction on Men to make them consider could not do it without judging for them in Matters of Religion unless they had no Religion at all and then they come not within our Author's Toleration which is a Toleration only of Men of different Religions or of different Opinions in Religion For supposing you the Magistrate with full Power and as you imagin'd Right of punishing any one in Matters of Religion how could you possibly punish any one to make him consider without judging for him what is right in Matters of Religion I will suppose my self brought before your Worship under what Character you please and then I desire to know what one or more Questions you would ask me upon my Answer to which you could judg me fit to be punished to make me consider without taking upon you to judg fâ—…r me what is right in Matters of Religion for I conclude from the Fashion of my Coat or the Colour of my Eyes you would not judg that I ought to be punished in Matters of Religion to make me consider If you could I should allow you not only as capable but much more capable of coactive Power than other Men. But since you could not judg me to need Punishment in Matters of
external Communion In this lording it over the Heritage of God and thus overseeing by Imposition on the unwilling and not consenting which seems to be the meaning of St. Peter most of the lasting Sects which so mangle Christianity had their Original and continue to have their Support and were it not for these establish'd Sects under the specious Names of National Churches which by their contracted and arbitrary Limits of Communion justify against themselves the Separation and like Narrowness of others the Difference of Opinions which do not so much begin to be as to appear and be owned under Toleration would either make no Sect nor Division or else if they were so extravagant as to be opposite to what is necessary to Salvation and so necessitate a Separation the clear Light of the Gospel joined with a strict Discipline of Manners would quickly chase them out of the World But whilst needless Impositions and moot Points in Divinity are established by the Penal Laws of Kingdoms and the specious Pretences of Authority what Hopes is there that there should be such an Union amongst Christians any where as might invite a rational Turk or Infidel to imbrace a Religion whereof he is told they have a Revelation from God which yet in some Places he is not suffered to read and in no Place shall he be permitted to understand for himself or to follow according to the best of his Understanding when it shall at all thwart though in things confessed not necessary to Salvation any of those select Points of Doctrine Discipline or outward Worship whereof the National Church has been pleased to make up its Articles Polity and Ceremonies And I ask what a sober sensible Heathen must think of the Divisions amongst Christians not owing to Toleration if he should find in an Island where Christianity seems to be in its greatest Purity the South and North Parts establishing Churches upon the Differences of only whether fewer or more thus and thus chosen should govern tho the Revelation they both pretend be their Rule say nothing directly one way or â—…other each contending with so much Eagerness that they deny each other to be Churches of Christ that is in effect to be true Christians To which if one should add Transubstantiation Consubstantiation Real Presence Articles and Distinctions set up by Men without Authority from Scripture and other less Differences which good Christians may dissent about without endangering their Salvations established by Law in the several Parts of Christendom I ask Whether the Magistrates interposing in Matters of Religion and establishing National Churches by the Force and Penalties of Civil Laws with their distinct and at home reputed necessary Confessions and Ceremonies do not by Law and Power authorize and perpetuate Sects among Christians to the great Prejudice of Christianity and Scandal to Insidels more than any thing that can arise from a mutual Toleration with Charity and a good Life Those who have so much in their Mouths the Authors of Sects and Divisions with so little advantage to their Cause I shall desire to consider whether National Churches established as now they are are not as much Sects and Divisions in Christianity as smaller Collections under the name of distinct Churches are in respect of the National only with this difference that these Subdivisions and discountenanced Sects wanting Power to enforce their peculiar Doctrines and Discipline usually live more friendly like Christians and seem only to demand Christian Liberty whereby there is less appearance of Unchristian Division among them Whereas those National Sects being back'd by the Civil Power which they never fail to make use of at least as a pretence of Authority over their Brethren usually breath out nothing but Force and Persecution to the great Reproach Shame and Dishonour of the Christian Religion I said That if the Magistrates would severely and impartially set themselves against Vice in whomsoever it is found and leave Men to their own Consciences in their Articles of Faith and Ways of Worship true Religion would spread wider and be more fruitful in the Lives of its Professors than ever hitherto it has done by the imposing of Creeds and Ceremonies Here I call only Immorality of Manners Vice you on the contrary in your Answer give the Name of Vice to Errors in Opinion and Difference in Ways of Worship from the National Church for this is the Matter in question between us express it as you please This being a Contest only about the signification of a short Syllable in the English Tongue we must leave to the Masters of that Language to judg which of these two is the proper use of it But yet from my using the word Vice you conclude presently taking it in your Sense not mine that the Magistrate has a Power in England for England we are speaking of to punish Dissenters from the National Religion because it is a Vice I will if you please in what I said change the word Vice into that I meant by it and say thus If the Magistrates will severely and impartially set themselves against the Dishonesty and Debauchery of Mens Lives and such Immoralities as I contra-distinguish from Errors in speculative Opinions of Religion and Ways of Worship and then pray see how your Answer will look for thus it runs It seems then with you the rejecting the true Religion and refusing to worship God in decent Ways prescribed by those to whom God has left the ordering of those Matters are not comprehended in the name Vice But you tell me If I except these things and will not allow them to be called by the name of Vice perhaps other Men may think it as reasonable to except some other things i. e. from being called Vices which they have a kindness for For instance some may perhaps except arbitrary Divorce Polygamy Concubinage simple Fornication or Marrying within Degrees thought forbidden Let them except these and if you will Drunkenness Theft and Murder too from the name of Vice nay call them Vertues Will they by their calling them so be exempt from the Magistrate's Power of punishing them Or can they claim an Impunity by what I have said Will these Immoralities by the Names any one shall give or forbear to give to them become Articles of Faith or Ways of Worship Which is all as I expresly say in the Words you here cite of mine that I would have the Magistrates leave Men to their own Consciences in But Sir you have for me Liberty of Conscience to use Words in what sense you please only I think where another is concerned it favours more of Ingenuity and love of Truth rather to mind the Sense of him that speaks than to make a dust and noise with a mistaken Word if any such Advantage were given you You say That some Men would through Carelesness never acquaint themselves with the Truth which must save them without being forced to do it which you suppose may
Aversion to their Scruples an excellent way to soften Mens Inclinations and temper them for the Impression of Arguments and Intreaties though these too are only talked of For I cannot but wonder to find you mention as you do giving ear to Admonitions Intreaties and Perswasions when these are seldom if ever made use of but in Places where those who are to be wrought on by them are known to be out of hearing nor can be expected to come there till by such Means they have been wrought on 'T is not without reason therefore you cannot part with your Penalties and would have no end put to your Punishments but continue them on since you leave so much to their Operation and make so little use of other Means to work upon Dissenters CHAP. VI. Of the End for which Force is to be used HE that should read the beginning of your Argument considered would think it in earnest to be your Design to have Force employed to make Men seriously consider and nothing else but he that shall look a little farther into it and to that add also your defence of it will find by the variety of Ends you design your Force for that either you know not well what you would have it for or else whatever 't was you aimed at you called it still by that Name which best fitted the Occasision and would serve best in that place to recommend the Use of it You ask me Whether the Mildness and Gentleness of the Gospel destroys the coactive Power of the Magistrate I answer as you supposed No upon which you infer Then it seems the Magistrate may use his coactive Power without offending against the Mildness and Gentleness of the Gospel Yes where he has Commission and Authority to use it And so say you it will consist well enough with the Mildness and Gentleness of the Gospel for the Magistrate to use his coactive Power to procure them I suppose you mean the Ministers and Preachers of the National Religion a hearing where their Prayers and Intreaties will not do it No it will not consist with the gentle and mild Method of the Gospel unless the Gospel has directed it or something else to supply its want till it could be had As for Miracles which you pretend to have supplied the want of Force in the first Ages of Christianity you will find that considered in another place But Sir shew me a Country where the Ministers and Teachers of the National and True Religion go about with Prayers and Intreaties to procure a Hearing and cannot obtain it and there I think I need not stand with you for the Magistrate to use Force to procure it them but that I fear will not serve your turn To shew the Inconsistency and Unpracticableness of your Method I had said Let us now see to what end they must be punished Sometimes it is To bring them to consider those Reasons and Arguments which are proper and sufficient to convince them Of what That it is not easy to set Grantâ—…ani Steeple upon Paul's Church Whatever it be you would have them convinced of you are not willing to tell us and so it may be any thing Sometimes it is To incline them to lend an Ear to those who tell them they have mistaken their Way and offer to shew them the right Which is to lend an Ear to all who differ from them in Religion as well crafty Seducers as others Whether this be for the procuring the Salvation of their Souls the End for which you say this Force is to be used judg you But this I am sure Whoever will lend an Ear to all who will tell them they are out of the Way will not have much time for any other Business Sometimes it is To recover Men to so much Sobriety and Reflection as seriously to put the Question to themselves Whether it be really worth their while to undergo such Inconveniences for adhering to a Religion which for any thing they know may be false or for rejecting another if that be the case which for ought they know may be true till they have brought it to the Bar of Reason and given it a fair Trial there Which in short amounts to thus much viz. To make them examine whether their Religion be true and so worth the holding under those Penalties that are annexed to it Dissenters are indebted to you for your great care of their Souls But what I beseech you shall become of those of the National Church every where which make far the greater part of Mankind who have no such Punishments to make them consider who have not this only Remedy provided for them but are left in that deplorable Condition you mention of being suffered quietly and without molestation to take no care at all of their Souls or in doing of it to follow their own Prejudices Humours or some crafty Seducers Need not those of the National Church as well as others bring their Religion to the Bar of Reason and give it a fair Trial there And if they need to do so as they must if all National Religions cannot be supposed true they will always need that which you say is the only Means to make them do so So that if you are sure as you tell us that there is need of your Method I am sure there is as much need of it in National Churches as any other And so for ought I can see you must either punish them or let others alone unless you think it reasonable that the far greater part of Mankind should constantly be without that Soveraign and only Remedy which they stand in need of equally with other People Sometimes the End for which Men must be punished is to dispose them to submit to Instruction and to give a fair hearing to the Reasons are offer'd for the inlightning their Minds and discovering the Truth to them If their own Words may be taken for it there are as few Dissenters as Conformists in any Country who will not profess they have done and do this And if their own Words may not be taken who I pray must be Judg you and your Magistrates If so then it is plain you punish them not to dispose them to submit to Instruction but to your Instruction not to dispose them to give a fair hearing to Reasons offer'd for the inlightning their Minds but to give an obedient hearing to your Reasons If you mean this it had been fairer and shorter to have spoken out plainly than thus in fair Words of indefinite Signification to say that which amounts to nothing For what Sense is it to punish a Man to dispose him to submit to Instruction and give a fair hearing to Reasons offer'd for the inlightning his Mind and discovering Truth to him who goes two or three times a Week several Miles on purpose to do it and that with the Hazard of his Liberty or Purse unless
you say No and that the examining the Controversy between the Magistrate and the Dissenter in this case will not bring him to the Knowledg of the Truth you consess your Rule to be false and your Method to no purpose To conclude your System is in short this You would have all Men laying aside Prejudice Humour Passion c. examine the Grounds of their Religion and search for the Truth This I consess is heartily to be wish'd The means that you propose to make Men do this is that Dissenters should be punished to make them do so It is as if you had said Men generally are guilty of a Fault therefore let one Sect who have the ill luck to be of an Opinion different from the Magistrate be punished This at first Sight shocks any one who has the least Spark of Sense Reason or Justice But having spoken of this already and concluding that upon second Thoughts you your self will be ashamed of it let us consider it put so as to be consistent with common Sense and with all the Advantage it can bear and then let us see what you can make of it Men are negligent in examining the Religions they imbrace refuse or persist in therefore it is fit they should be punished to make them do it This is a Consequence indeed which may without Defiance to common Sense be drawn from it This is the Use the only Use which you think Punishment can indirectly and at a distance have in matters of Religion You would have Men by Punishments driven to examine What Religion To what end To bring them to the Knowledg of the Truth But I answer First Every one has not the Ability to do this Secondly Every one has not the Opportunity to do it Would you have every poor Protestant for example in the Palatinate examine throughly whether the Pope be infallible or Head of the Church whether there be a Purgatory whether Saints are to be pray'd to or the Dead pray'd for whether the Scripture be the only Rule of Faith whether there be no Salvation out of the Church and whether there be no Church without Bishops and an hundred other Questions in Controversy between the Papists and those Protestants and when he had master'd these go on to fortify himself against the Opinions and Objections of other Churches he differs from This which is no small Task must be done before a Man can have brought his Religion to the Bar of Reason and given it fair Trial there And if you will punish Men till this be done the Country-man must leave off plowing and sowing and betake himself to the Study of Greek and Latin and the Artisan must sell his Tools to buy Fathers and School-men and leave his Family to starve If something less than this will satisfy you pray tell me what is enough Have they considered and examined enough if they are satisfied themselves where the Truth lies If this be the Limits of their Examination you will find few to punish unless you will punish them to make them do what they have done already For however he came by his Religion there is scarce any one to be found who does not own himself satisfied that he is in the right Or else must they be punished to make them consider and examine till they imbrace that which you chuse for Truth If this be so what do you but in effect chuse for them when yet you would have Men punished To bring them to such a Care of their Souls that no other Person might chuse for them If it be Truth in general you would have them by Punishments driven to seek that is to offer matter of Dispute and not a Rule of Discipline For to punish any one to make him seek till he find Truth without a Judg of Truth is to punish for you know not what and is all one as if you should whip a Scholar to make him find out the square Root of a Number you do not know I wonder not therefore that you could not resolve with your self what degree of Severity you would have used nor how long continued when you dare not speak out directly whom you would have punished and are far from being clear to what end they should be under Penalties Consonant to this Uncertainty of whom or what to be punished you tell us That there is no Question of the Success of this Method Force will certainly do if duly proportioned to the Design of it What I pray is the Design of it I challenge you or any Man living out of what you have said in your Book to tell me directly what it is In all other Punishments that ever I heard of yet till now that you have taught the World a new Method the Design of them has been to cure the Crime they are denounced against and so I think it ought to be here What I beseech you is the Crime here Dissenting That you say not any where is a Fault Besides you tell us That the Magistrate hath not an Authority to compel any one to his Religion And that you do not require that Men should have no Rule but the Religion of the Country And the Power you ascribe to the Magistrate is given him to bring Men not to his own but to the true Religion If Dissenting be not the Fault is it that a Man does not examine his own Religion and the Grounds of it Is that the Crime your Punishments are designed to cure Neither that dare you say lest you displease more than you satisfy with your new Discipline And then again as I said before you must tell us how far you would have them examine before you punish them for not doing it And I imagine if that were all we required of you it would be long enough before you would trouble us with a Law that should prescribe to every one how far he was to examine Matters of Religion wherein if he fail'd and came short he was to be punished if he perform'd and went in his Examination to the Bounds set by the Law he was acquitted and free Sir when you consider it again you will perhaps think this a Case reserv'd to the Great Day when the Secrets of all Hearts shall be laid open For I imagine it is beyond the Power or Judgment of Man in that Variety of Circumstances in respect of Parts Tempers Opportunities Helps c. Men are in in this World to determine what is every one's Duty in this great Business of Search Inquiry Examination or to know when any one has done it That which makes me believe you will be of this Mind is that where you undertake for the success of this Method if rightly used it is with a Limitation upon such as are not altogether incurable So that when your Remedy is prepared according to Art which Art is yet unknown and rightly apply'd and given in a due Dose all which are Secrets
at the Sacrament Now that Uniformity is thought sufficiently preserved without kneeling at Prayer is evident by the various Postures Men are at liberty to use and may be generally observed in all our Congregations during the Minister's Prayer in the Pulpit before and after his Sermon which it seems can consist well enough with Decency and Uniformity tho it be at Prayer addressed to the great God of Heaven and Earth to whose Majesty it is that the Reverence to be expressed in our Gestures is due when we put up Petitions to him who is invariably the same in what or whose Words soever we address our selves to him The Preface to the Book of Common-Prayer tells us That the Riâ—…es and Ceremonies appointed to be used in Divine Worship are things in their own Nature indifferent and alterable Here I ask you whether any humane Power can make any thing in its own nature indifferent necessary to Salvation If it cannot then neither can any Humane Power be justified in the use of Force to bring Men to Conformity in the use of such things If you think Men have Authority to make any thing in it self indifferent a necessary part of God's Worship I shall desire you to consider what our Author says of this Matter which has not yet deserved your notice The misapplying his Power you say is a Sin in the Magistrate and lays him open to Divine Vengeance And is it not a misapplying of his Power and a Sin in him to use Force to bring Men to such a Compliance in an indifferent thing which in Religious Worship may be a Sin to them Force you say may be used to punish those who dissent from the Communion of the Church of England Let us suppose now all its Doctrines not only true but necessary to Salvation but that there is put into the Terms of its Communion some indifferent Action which God has not enjoin'd nor made a part of his Worship which any Man is perswaded in his Conscience not to be lawful suppose kneeling at the Sacrament which having been superstitiously used in Adoration of the Bread as the real Body of Christ may give occasion of scruple to some now as well as eating of Flesh offered to Idols did to others in the Apostles time which though lawful in it self yet the Apostle said he would eat no Flesh while the World standeth rather than make his weak Brother offend And if to lead by Example the Scrupulous into any Action in it self indifferent which they thought unlawful be a Sin as appears at large Rom. XIV how much more is it to add Force to our Example and to compel Men by Punishments to that which though indifferent in it self they cannot join in without sinning I desire you to shew me how Force can be necessary in such a Case without which you acknowledg it not to be lawful Not to kneel at the Lord's Supper God not having ordained it is not a Sin and the Apostles receiving it in the Posture of sitting or lying which was then used at Meat is an Evidence it may be received not kneeling But to him that thinks Kneeling is unlawful it is certainly a Sin And for this you may take the Authority of a very Judicious and Reverend Prelate of our Church in these Words Where a Man is mistaken in his Judgment even in that Case it is always a Sin to act against it by so doing he wilfully acts against the best Light which at present he has for the direction of his Actions I need not here repeat his Reasons having already quoted him above more at large though the whole Passage writ as he uses with great Strength and Clearness deserves to be read and considered If therefore the Magistrate enjoins such an unnecessary Ceremony and uses Force to bring any Man to a sinful Communion with our Church in it let me ask you Doth he sin or misapply his Power or no True and false Religions are Names that easily engage Mens Affections on the hearing of them the one being the Aversion the other the Desire at least as they perswade themselves of all Mankind This makes Men forwardly give into these Names where-ever they meet with them and when mention is made of bringing Men from false to the true Religion very often without knowing what is meant by those Names they think nothing can be done too much in such a Business to which they intitle God's Honour and the Salvation of Mens Souls I shall therefore desire of you if you are that fair and sincere Lover of Truth you profess when you write again to tell us what you mean by true and what by a false Religion that we may know which in your sense are so for as you now have used these Words in your Treatise one of them seems to stand only for the Religion of the Church of England and the other for that of all other Churches I expect here you should make the same Outcries against me as you have in your former Letter for imposing a Sense upon your Words contrary to your Meaning and for this you will appeal to your own Words in some other Places but of this I shall leave the Reader Judg and tell him this is a Way very easy and very usual for Men who having not clear and consistent Notions keep themselves as much as they can under the shelter of general and variously applicable Terms that they may save themselves from the Absurdities or Consequences of one Place by a help from some general or contrary Expression in another Whether it be a desire of Victory or a little too warm Zeal for a Cause you have been hitherto perswaded of which hath led you into this way of writing I shall only mind you that the Cause of God requires nothing but what may be spoken out plainly in a clear determined Sense without any reserve or cover In the mean time this I shall leave with you as evident That Force upon your ground cannot be lawfully used to bring Men to the Communion of the Church of England that being all that I can find you clearly mean by the True Religion till you have proved that all that is required of one in that Communion is necessary to Salvation However therefore you tell us That convenient Force used to bring Men to the true Religion is all that you contend for and all that you allow That it is for promoting the true Religion That it is to bring Men to consider so as not to reject the Truth necessary to Salvation .... To bring Men to imbrace the Truth that must save them And abundance more to this purpose Yet all this Talk of the true Religion amounting to no more but the National Religion established by Law in England and your bringing Men to it to no more than bringing them to an outward Profession of it it would better have suted that Condition viz. without Prejudice
them with sufficient Evidence But then to let you see how little ground you have to say that I prevaricate in this matter I shall only desire you to consider what it is that the Author and my self were enquiring after For it is not What Course is to be taken to confirm and establish those in the Truth who have already embraced it nor How they may be enabled to propagate it to others for both which Purposes I have already acknowledged it very useful and a thing much to be desired that all such Persons should as far as they are able search into the Grounds upon which their Religion stands and challenges their Belief but the Subject of our Enquiry is only What Method is to be used 〈◊〉 bring Men to the true Religion Now if this be the only thing we were inquiring after as you cannot deny it to be then every one sees that in speaking to this Point I had nothing to do with any who have already imbraced the true Religion because they are not to be brought to that Religion but only to be confirmed and edified in it but was only to consider how those who reject it may be brought to imbrace it So that how much soever any of those who own the true Religion may be guilty of neglect of Examination 't is evident I was only concerned to shew how it may be cured in those who by reason of it reject the true Religion duly proposed or tender'd to them And certainly to confine my self to this is not to prevaricate unless to keep within the Bounds which the Question under debate prescribes me be to prevaricate In telling me therefore that I dare not say that the Ignorant the Careless the Inconsiderate the Negligent in examining c. i. e. all that are such are to be punished you only tell me that I dare not be impertinent And therefore I hope you will excuse me if I take no notice of the three Reasons you offer in your next Page for your saying so And yet if I had had a mind to talk impertinently I know not why I might not have dared to do so as well as other Men. There is one thing more in this Paragraph which though nothing more pertinent than the rest I shall not wholly pass over It lies in these Words He that reads your Treatise with Attention will be more confirm'd in this Opinion viz. That I use want of Examination only for a Pretence to punish Dissenters c. when he shall find that you who are so earnest to have Men punish'd to bring them to consider and examine that so they may discover the Way of Salvation have not said one Word of considering searching and hearkning to the Scripture which had been as good a Rule for a Christian to have sent them to as to Reasons and Arguments proper to convince them of you know not what c. How this confirms that Opinion I do not see nor have you thought fit to instruct me But as to the thing it self viz. my not saying one Word of considering searching and hearkning to the Scripture whatever Advantage a captious Adversary may imagine he has in it I hope it will not seem strange to any indifferent and judicious Person who shall but consider that throughout my Treatise I speak of the true Religion only in general i. e. not as limited to any particular Dispensation or to the Times of the Scriptures but as reaching from the Fall of Adam to the End of the World and so comprehending the Times which preceded the Scriptures wherein yet God left not himself without Witness but furnished Mankind with sufficient Means of knowing Him and his Will in order to their eternal Salvation For I appeal to all Men of Art whether speaking of the True Religion under this Generality I could be allowed to descend to any such Rules of it as belong only to some particular Times or Dispensations such as you cannot but acknowledg the Old and New Testaments to be In this your Answer you say the Subject of our Inquiry is only what Method is to be used to bring Men to the true Religion He that reads what you say again and again That the Magistrate is impower'd and obliged to procure as much as in him lies i. e. as far as by Penalties it can be procured that NO MAN neglect his Soul and shall remember how many Pages you imploy A. p 6 c. And here p. 6 c. to shew that it is the Corruption of humane Nature which hinders Men from doing what they may and ought for the Salvation of their Souls and that therefore Penalties no other means being left and Force were necessary to be used by the Magistrate to remove these great Obstacles of Lâ—…sts and Corruptions that none of his Subjects might remain ignorant of the way of Salvation or refuse to imbrace it One would think your Inquiry had been after the means of CVRING MENS Aversion to the true Religion which you tell us p. 53. if not cured is certainly destructive of Mens Eternal Salvation that so they might heartily imbrace it for their Salvation But here you tell us your Inquiry is only what Method is to be used to bring Men to the true Religion whereby you evidently mean nothing but outward Conformity to that which you think the true Church as appears by the next following Words Now if this be the only thing we were inquiring after then every one sees that in speaking to this Point I had nothing to do with any who have already imbraced the true Religion And also every one sees that since amongst those with whom having already imbraced the true Religion you and your Penalties have nothing to do there are those who have not considered and examined Matters of Religion as they ought whose Lusts and corrupt Natures keep them as far alienated from believing and as averse to a real obeying the Truth that must save them as any other Men it is manifest that imbracing the true Religion in your Sense is only imbracing the outward Profession of it which is nothing but outward Conformity And that being the furthest you would have your Penalties pursue Men and there leave them with as much of their Ignorance of the Truth and Carelesness of their Souls as they please who can deny but that it would be impertinent in you to consider how want of impartial Examination or Aversion to the true Religion should in them be cured because they are none of those Subjects of the Commonwealth whose spiritual and eternal Interests are by political Government to be procured or advanced none of those Subjects whose Salvation the Magistrate is to take Care of And therefore I excuse you as you desire for not taking notice of my three Reasons but whether the Reader will do so or no is more than I can undertake I hope you too will excuse me for having used so harsh a Word as
obliged to answer when I have produced those Reasons and Arguments which are proper and sufficient to convince Men that they ought to go to Mass. But if you had not omitted the 3 or 4 immediately preceding Lines an Art to serve a good Cause which puts me in mind of my Pagans and Mahumetans the Reader would have seen that your Reply was nothing at all to my Argument My Words were these Especially if you consider that as the Magistrate will certainly use it Force to force Men to hearken to the proper Ministers of his Religion let it be what it will so you having set no time nor bounds to this Consideration of Arguments and Reasons short of being convinced you under another c. My Argument is to shew of what advantage Force your Way apply'd is like to be to the True Religion since it puts as much Force into the Magistrate's hands as the openest Persecutors can pretend to which the Magistrates of wrong Perswasions may and will use as well as those of the true because your Way sets no other Bounds to Considering short of Complying And then I ask What Difference there is between punishing you to bring you to Mass or punishing you to consider those Reasons and Arguments which are proper and sâ—…fficient to convince you that you ought to go to Mass To which you râ—…ply That it is a Question you shall then think your self oblig'd to answer when I have produced those Reasons and Arguments that are proâ—…er and sufficient to convince Men that they ought to go to Mass. Whereas the Objection is the same Whâ—…ther there be or be not Râ—…asons and Arguments proper to convince Men that they â—…t to go to Mass for Men mâ—…st be puâ—…h on till they have so coâ—…dered as to comply And what differnce is there then bâ—…n punishing Men to bring them to Mass and punishing 〈◊〉 to make them consider so as to go to Mass But though I preâ—…d not to produce any Reasons and Arguments proper and conviâ—…e to convince you or all Men that they ought to go to Mass yet do you think there are none proper and sufficient to convince any Men And that all the Papists in thâ—… World go to Mass without believing it their Duty And whosoever believes it to be his Duty does it upon Reasons and Arguments proper and sufficient to convince him though perhaps not to convince an other that it is so or else I imagine he would never believe it at all What think you of those great Numbers of Japaneses that resisted all sorts of Torments even to Death it self for the Romish Religion And had you been in France some years since who knows but the Arguments the K. of France produced might have been proper and sufficient to have convinced you that you ought to go to Mass I do not by this think you less confident of the Truth of your Religion than you profess to be But Arguments set on with Force have a strange Efficacy upon humane Frailty and he must be well assured of his own Strength who can peremptorily affirm he is sure he should have stood what above a Million of People sunk under amongst which 't is great Confidence to say there was not one so well perswaded of the Truth of his Religion as you are of yours though some of them gave great Proofs of their Perswasion in their Sufferings for it But what the necessary Method of Force may be able to do to bring any one in your sense to any Râ—…ligion i. e. to an outward Profession of it he that thinks himself secure against must have a greater Assurance of himself than the Weakness of decayed and depraved Nature will well allow If you have any Spell against the Force of Arguments driven with Penalties and Punishments you will do well to teach it the World for it is the hard Luck of well-meaning People to be often misled by them and even the Confident themselves have not seldom fallen under them and betrayed their Weakness To my demanding if you meant Reasons and Arguments proper and sufficient to convince Men of the Truth why did you not say so You reply As if it were possible for any Man that reads your Answer to think otherwise Whoever reads that Passage in your A. p. 5. cannot possibly think you meant to speak out and possibly you found some difficulty to add any thing to your Words which are these Force used to bring Men to consider Reasons and Arguments proper and sufficient to convince them that might determine their Sense For if you had said to convince them of Truth then the Magistrate must have made Laws and used Force to make Men search after Truth in general and that would not have served your turn If you had said to convince them of the Truth of the Magistrate's Religion that would too manifestly have put the Power in every Magistrate's hands which you tell us none but an Atheist will say If you had said to convince them of the Truth of your Religion that had looked too ridiculous to be owned though it were the thing you meant and therefore in this strait where nothing you could say would well sit your purpose you wisely choose to leave the Sense imperfect and name nothing they were to be convinced of but leave it to be collected by your Reader out of your Discourse rather than add three Words to make it good Grammar as well as intelligible Sense To my saying That if you pretend it must be Arguments to convince Men of the Truth it would in this Case do you little Service because the Mass in France is as much suppos'd the Truth as the Liturgy here You reply So that it seems that in your Opinion whatsoever is suppos'd the Truth is the Truth for otherwise this Reason of mine is none at all If in my Opinion the Supposition of Truth authorizes the Magistrate to use the same Means to bring Men to it as if it were true my Argument will hold good without taking all to be true which some Men suppose true According to this Answer of yours to suppose or believe his Religion the true is not enough to authorize the Mastrate to use Force he must know i. e. be infallibly certain that his is the True Religion We will for once suppose you our Magistrate with Force promoting our National Religion I will not ask you whether you know that all required of Conformists is necessary to Salvation But will suppose one of my Pagans asking you whether you know Christianity to be the True Religion If you say Yes he will ask you how you know it and no doubt but you will give the Answer whereby our Saviour proved his Mission John V. 36. that the Works which our Saviour did bear witness of him that the Father sent him The Miracles that Christ did are a Proof of his being sent from God and so his Religion the True
to say to my Modesty and Conscience for imputing to you what you no where say I grant it in direct words but in effect as plainly as may be The Magistrate may impose sound Creeds and decent Ceremonies i. e such as he thinks sit for what is sound and decent he I hope must be Judg and if he be Judg of what is sound and decent it amounts to no more but what he thinks sit and if it be not what he thinks sit why is one Ceremony preferr'd to another why one Doctrine of the Scripture put into the Creed and Articles and another as sound left out They are Truths necessary to Salvation We shall see that in good time here only I ask Does the Magistrate only believe them to be Truths and Ceremonies necessary to Salvation or does he certainly know them to be so If you say he only believes them to be so and that that is enough to authorize him to impose them you by your own Confession authorize Magistrates to impose what they think necessary for the Salvation of their Subjects Souls and so the King of France did what he was obliged to when he said he would have all his Subjects saved and so fell to Dragooning If you say the Magistrate certainly knows them to be necessary to Salvation we are luckily come to an Infallible Guide Well then the sound Creeds are agreed on the Confession and Liturgy are framed the Ceremonies pitch'd on and the Terms of Communion thus set up you have Religion establish'd by Law and what now is the Subject to do He is to conform No he must first considâ—…r Who bids him consider no body he may if he pleases but the Law says nothing to him of it consider or not consider if he conforms 't is well and he is approved of and admitted He does consider the best he can but finds some things he does not understand other things he cannot believe assent or consent to What now is to be done with him He must either be punished on or resign himself up to the Determination and Direction of the Civil Magistrate which till you can â—…ind a better name for it we will call Implicit Faith And thus you have provided a Remedy for the hazardous Condition of weak Understandings in that which you suppose necessary in the case viz. an infallible Guide and implicit Faith in Matters â—…oncerning Mens Salvation But you say For your part you know of no such Guide of God's appointing Let that be your Rule and the Magistrate with his Co-active Power will be left out too You think there is no need of any such because notwithstanding the long and many Proofs and remote Consequences the false Grounds and the captious and fallacious Arguments of Learned Men vers'd in Controversies with which I as well as those of the Roman Communion endeavour to amuse you through the Goodness of God the Truth which is necessary to Salvation lies so obvious and exposed to all that sinâ—…erely and diligently seek it that no such Person shall ever fail of attaining the Knowledg of it This then is your Answer that Truths necessary to Salvation are obvious so that those who seek them sincerely and diligently are not in danger to be misled or expos'd in those to Error by the Weakness of their Understandings This will be a good Answer to what I objected from the Danger most are in to be led into Error by the Magistrate's adding Force to the Arguments for their National establish'd Religions when you have shewn that nothing is wont to be impos'd in National Religions but what is necessary to Salvation or which will a little better accommodate your Hypothesis when you can shew that nothing is impos'd or requir'd for Communion with the Church of England but what is necessary to Salvation and consequently is very easy and obvious to be known and distinguish'd from Falshood And indeed besides what you say here upon your Hypothesis that Force is lawful only because it is necessary to bring Men to Salvation it cannot be lawful to use it to bring Men to any thing but what is absolutely necessary to Salvation For if the Lawfulness of Force be only from the need Men have of it to bring them to Salvation it cannot lawfully be used to bring Men to that which they do not need or is not necessary to their Salvation for in such an Application of it it is not needful to their Salvation Can you therefore say that there is nothing required to be believ'd and profess'd in the Church of England but what lies so obvious and expos'd to all that sincerely and diligently seek it that no such Person shall ever fail of attaining the Knowledg of it What think you of St. Athanasius's Câ—…eed is the Sense of that so obvious and expos'd to every one who seeks it which so many Learned Men have explain'd so different Ways and which yet a great many profess they cannot understand Or is it necessary to your or my Salvation that you or I should believe and pronounce all those damn'd who do not believe that Creed i. e. every Proposition in it which I fear would extend to not a few of the Church of England unless we can think that People believe i. e. assent to the Truth of Propositions they do not at all understand If ever you were acquainted with a Country-Parish you must needs have a strange Opinion of them if you think all the Plough-Men and Milk-Maids at Church understood all the Propositions in Athanasius's Creed 't is more truly than I should be apt to think of any one of them and yet I cannot hence believe my self authorized to judg or pronounce them all damn'd 't is too bold an Intrenching on the Prerogative of the Almighty to their own Master they stand or fall The Doctrine of Original Sin is that which is profess'd and must be owned by the Members of the Church of England as is evident from the 39 Articles and several Passages in the Liturgy and yet I ask you whether this be so obvious and expos'd to all that diligently and sincerely seek the Truth that one who is in the Communion of the Church of England sincerely seeking the Truth may not raise to himself such Difficulties concerning the Doctrine of Original Sin as may puzzle him though he be a Man of Study and whether he may not push his Enquiries so far as to be stagger'd in his Opinion If you grant me this as I am apt to think you will then I enquire whether it be not true notwithstanding what you say concerning the Plainness and Obviousness of Truths necessary to Salvation that a great part of Mankind may not be able to discern between Truth and Falshood in several Points which are thought so far to concern their Salvation as to be made necessary Parts of the National Religion If you say it may be so then I have nothing farther to enquire but