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Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
sense_n	church_n	scripture_n	way_n	3,397	5	5.4178	4	true

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A87879	An answer to the Marques of Worcester's last paper; to the late King. Representing in their true posture, and discussing briefly, the main controversies between the English and the Romish Church. Together with some considerations, upon Dr Bayly's parenthetical interlocution; relating to the Churches power in deciding controversies. To these is annext, Smectymnuo-Mastix : or, short animadversions upon Smectymnuus in the point of lyturgie. / By Hamon L'Estrange, Esqr.	L'Estrange, Hamon, 1605-1660.	1651 (1651)	Wing L1187; Wing L1191; Thomason E1218_2; ESTC R202717	68,906	120

is the Rule of Faith and after he tells you why it must be so because a Rule must be certain and known for if it be not certain it is no Rule and if not known it is no Rule to us now there is nothing more certain or more known than the Scriptures Compare the Marques his infallible Rule of Traditions with this saying of Bellarmine and it will appear they have little of a Rule in them For certainly what is more uncertain When the Primitive Church it self within a hundred years after the Apostolical Times was split into that great Schism about the Celebration of Easter which was but a meer Tradition and was not reconciled till the Councel of Nice And for being known nothing is less seeing in the very Church of Rome they are not yet agreed which are Apostolical Traditions The Scriptures he urgeth are Rom. 12. 6. And there is a Rule of Faith I grant and an infallible one too but it is not praeter besides nor extra without the Scripture but that mentioned in the Scriptures Gal. 6. 16. there is a Rule but a Rule of Doctrine concerning Christian Liberty in the point of Circumcision no Rule of Faith Rom. 6. 17. there is neither Rule nor Faith but a form of Doctrine delivered to them by the preaching of the Gospel what he urged out of 2 Cor. 10. 12 16. is so extremely and grosly impertinent as sure when he cast his eye upon that place his Lordship was either entring into or newly raised from such a nap wherein the Doctor found him M. But lest we should mis-understand what this Rule of Faith is the Marques tells us By it is not meant the holy Scriptures for that cannot do it and he gives the Reason whilest there are unstable men who wrest this way and that way to their own destruction So that Scripture is now with the Marques no infallible Rule at all Traditions have outed her clear and the Reason inferreth plainly that we must not walk abroad at high noon-day without a Torch because some men notwithstanding the Sun shined clear have fallen into a Ditch Of farr more weight I must needs confess are his Humane than Divine Authorities which yet shall not pass without my Animadversions Irenaeus lib. 4. c. 45. speaking of those who succeeded the Apostles saith Hi fidem nostram custodiunt Scripturas sine periculo exponunt These preserve our Faith and expound the Scriptures without peril of error Observe first 't is hi these men who were so near the Apostles as they were instructed by those who were contemporaries with them as himself says Then again 't is exponunt they do expound not that they are infallible or cannot expound otherwise what is this to the infallibility of the Church 1600 years after Christ Irenaeus is full enough in this point and point-blank against the Marques a To expound Scripture decording to Scripture is the truest way and least perilous As for Tertullian his meaning is thus made out b The Heretiques with whom the Church was to dispute did not receive all Scriptures for Canonical and those they did receive intire they did not or if intire they feigned strange Interpretations of their own fancies and a corrupt sense prejudiceth Truth as much as a corrupt Text were they accused for vitiating and falsifying the Text or for introducing absured Expositions They retorted the same Charge upon their Adversaries In this case of malicious obstinacy the Church had onely this remedy to provoke them to declare who founded their Churches for if it appeared they were the Apostles there was no more to be said it being in those days c constat and evidence enough of Truth that their Churches were of Apostolical foundation As for Vincentius having spoke before of the perfection of Scripture with a satis superque that it is all-sufficient and to spare he supposeth it may be demanded what need is there then of the Churches sense to which he answereth because all men understand it not in one sense and alike therefore it is necessary saith he that the line of interpretation be directed according to the rule of the Catholique and Ecclesiastical sense Now what is intended by a Catholique sense is the Question the Papists will have it to be Tradition unwritten but we say it is that which the Universal Church hath always held for Vincentius explains his Catholique to be that a which always every where and of all men hath been believed and this Rule we willingly admit in points essential where variety and different senses are inconsistent but in other points of less concernment we say with Saint Augustin b If any thing be set down in sacred Scriptures more obscurely as an exercise for the mindes of Believers it is commendable if it be interpreted many ways provided no way absurdly M. In matters of Faith Christ bids us do and observe whatsoever they bid us who sit in Moses seat Matth. 23. 2. therefore there is something more to be observed than Scripture True it is to be observed that his Lordship here takes observing and doing to be matters of Faith which I never read in Scripture nor anywhere else But are we to do whatsoever they bid us who sit in Moses seat Surely no if they have any Commission it is not greater than that of Moses was and his was after the tenour of the words delivered him in the Mount Exod. 34. 27. And therefore Christ saith In vain ye worship me teaching for Doctrines the Commandments of men Mat. 15. 9. Wil you not as wel believe what you hear Christ say as what ye hear his Ministers write Yes sure and much more for what Christ says is truth it self believe it I must but what his Ministers write is many times erroneous and then credat Judaeus Apella non ego believe it who will for me Their Commission is All things which I have commanded you M. We say the Scriptures are not easie to be understood you say they are Our Church saith it is full as well of low valleys plain ways and easie for every man to walk in as also of high hills and mountains which few men can climb unto And this the Marques in a manner grants p. 129. saying 't is easie in aliquibus but not in omnibus locis in some places not every where M. We say this Church cannot err you say it can What his Lordship means by this Church we might demand had he not told us at first to what Church he would lead his Majesty and that was the Romish Church of which our Church makes no bones to say It hath erred not onely in living and matters of ceremonies but also in matters of faith Here she is I confess somewhat bolder with the Church of Rome than the Marques was with his Majesty But perhaps the Church of England for she is not infallible may err in her

nurture for Children who are adult and grown to full stature and past the danger of cutting their own fingers sometimes to be their own Carvers though their Mother be at the Table But how commeth it to passe that the Doctor here placeth our Mother the Church in no obscure place neither but in the Carvers place at the Tables end where she should be visible enough and yet say afterward he would fain finde out this Church And if at the Table she be the more hard-hearted is she sure for truly Doctor I must say as Powhaton did to the Jesuit or Attaliba an Indian Prince too to Frier Vincent she hath carved me nothing no nor any man else for these fifteen hundred years and 't is an hard case that Children should cry and pine and sterve and die eternally for want of this Food everlasting which is before them and all because their Mother will not carve them and themselves they must not 'T is time then for God to take away and I heartily pray he may not take away and deprive this Church of that blessed Food for such wicked Tenets as this They must not slight all Orders Constitutions Appeals and Rules of Faith Most true the Churches Orders are not to be slighted nor yet to be obeyed without further disquisition and scrutiny the Apostle spake as to wise men yet left them to judge what he said so may the Church determine what she please and if not agreeable to my sense endeavour I will to inform my self better and if after after all my study I cannot subdue my Reason to hers yet to her Orders my outward conformity I will provided she makes no Rules of Faith and obtrudeth nothing destructive to saving principles things above her sphere Saving knowledge and divine Truths must not be wrested from the Scripture by private hands This is that we desire let them there remain fit it is that in what every man hath equal propriety he also should to it have equal accesse and most unfit that the means of eternal livelihood should be monopolized Doct. There is nothing more absurd to my understanding than that the thing contested which is the true meaning of the Scriptures should be Judge of the Contestation Nor to mine that any one should tell us what God meaneth better than he doth himself or that the Church a thing subordinate to Scripture and not to be known or discovered but by Scripture should tell us the minde of the Scripture better than it doth it self Doct. No way inferior to that absurdity which would follow would be this if we should leave the deciding of the sense of the words of the Law to the pre-occupated understanding of one of the Advocates Neither is this all the Absurdity that doth arise upon this supposition for if you grant this to one you must grant it to any one and to every one if there were but two how will you reconcile them both If you grant that this Judicature must be in many there are many manies which of those manies will you have Decide but this and you satisfie all Decide you it Doctor whence it concerns for your Church must be one of those manies and yet I believe you will not satisfie all not those I am perswaded whose suffrage is for the Scripture against all manies whatsoever If you make the Scripture the Judge of Controversies you make the Reader Judge of the Scripture Not so Doctor no Judge yet a more competent Judge to himself than any other or all the World can be seeing Knowledge and Understanding cannot be produced and perfected in any man any other way than by his own Reason If I make the dead Letter my Judge I am the greatest Idolater in the World A great Idolater you should then be I grant but not the greatest in the World for you worship then but what you see and something really existing but to worship such a thing as hath not yet been nor can be divin'd when it shall be as your Church is certainly must be the greater Idolatry of the two Doct. It will tell me no more than it told the Indian Emperor Powhaton who asking the Jesuit how he knew all that to be true which he had told him and the Jesuit answering him that God's Word did tell him so the Emperor asked him where it was He shewed him his Bible the Emperor after he had held it in his hands a pretty while answered it tells me nothing But you will say you can reade and so you will finde the meaning out of the significant Character and when you have done as you apprehend it so it must be and so the Scripture is nothing else but your meaning Not so Doctor but so it must be to me be it to the Doctor what he please nor perhaps shall it be always so to me as I now apprehend it for I am no infallible Judge to my self rectifie I may and will upon better reason what I formerly mis-apprehended upon worse Wherefore necessity requireth an external Judge for Determination of Differences besides the Scriptures If an external Judge besides Scriptures be necessary then necessary also it is that that Judge be first infallible for else better it were the Dissentions continued than the Error be stated and put into possession as may well be feared in an erring Judge Secondly that that Judges authority be allow'd of for infallible by general consent for else all will not abide her arrest and doom Lastly that that Judge be always ready and forth coming upon all emergent Differences to still them never out of the way never to seek for else the Differences will the more increase and fructifie by staying the longer for judicial sentence and decision Now because for these fifteen hundred years controversies have been and no such Judge as yet discovered in rerum natura to quiet them we may safely conclude from the no Judge a no necessity or accuse God for improvidence and neglect in leaving us destitute all this time of so necessary a Requisite Doct. And we can have no better recourses to any than to such as the Scripture it self calls upon us to hear which is the Church which Church would be found out The Scripture calls upon us to hear the Church but is this to hear to obey her Glosse and Interpretation of the Scripture to give up and resign our judgements to her sense Calvin Beza Grotius all Expositors the Context it self will tell you no it is to submit to her censure in point of satisfaction for mutual offence whereby she is scandalized so that Doctor you must before you finde the Church you so look for finde some other Text to warrant her Authority or she is like to be no external Judge whom all must obey in matters of Faith Here the Doctor takes breath and gives his most Excellent Majesty leave to speak who like himself most judiciously catechiseth the Doctor in the

censure of the Romish Church and his Lordship hopes to prove it out of Scripture If you neglect to hear this Church you shall be a Heathen and a Publican Matth. 18. 17. This Church in the Marques his sense is the Church of Rome and I grant it is but not the Church of Rome onely for it is as well the English the French the Geneva or any other particular Church and admit it were onely the Church of Rome yet the matters wherein that Church is to be obeyed are not Articles of Faith neither the very Text tells us it is onely in points of scandal and breach of unity in civil matters His next Scripture is Ephes. 5. 27. where the Church shall be presented unto Christ a glorious Church not having spot or wrinkle Here is a Church I yield that cannot err but it is not the Romish Catholique Church no neither Romish nor Catholique if his Lordship means the Catholique militant Church for it is a Church that can neither err nor sin without spot and therefore their own Salmeron says It must be understood of the Triumphant Church and if his Lordship thought otherwise Augustine would have told him he was a Pelagian M. We say the Church hath been always visible you deny it Our Church saith nothing of this Point and therefore if I say any thing it must be ex abundanti dictum more than Covenants yet something I will say and something shall Liberius say too as a Salmeron quoteth him replying to Constantius his boast of the multitude of Arrians Non refert numerum esse magnum aut parvum nam Judaeorum Ecclesia in Babylone constituta ad tres pueros redacta fuit No matter whether the number be small or great for the Jewish Church in Babylon was reduced to three And at this time Liberius was Pope of Rome and because I am faln upon this time I would gladly have an answer where the Visibility of the Romish Church was unless they mean a Visibility of Heresie when Liberius himself excommunicated Athanasius and turn'd Arrian Nay more and to the very point where was the Visibility of the Catholique and true Church it self at that time but onely in that Pillar of Faith c Athanasius I confess Nazianzen says his Church had it {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} most singular to it self to be preserved from drowning in the Arrian Deluge but the visible shock and storm of Persecution no man stoutly withstood and overcame but Athanasius onely His Fathers Origen in Matth. hom 30. saith The Church is full of light but that light is fulgor veritatis he himself tells us so the brightness of Truth no external splendor what 's this to a visible Church Cyprian the Church of God encompassed with light sheds her beams through all the World Cyprian's light is like Origen's an inward light too and were it as the Sun an outward Light it would not shine always in every Horizon and where it doth shine it may sometimes be eclipsed Chrysost. Hom. 4. in Esay 6. speaketh of the duration and perpetuity not of the Visibility of the Church and saith It is easier for the Sun's light to be extinguished than for the Church utterly to be destroy'd or if you will {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} to disappear so saith Chrysostome and so say we too the Church wil be always visible for an Invisibility we hold not absolutly but comparatively it may be reduced to so inconsiderable a number as in regard of the paucity and fewness of the Professors the World will not own it under the notion of a Church Again Persecution may so controul the outward Profession of the Gospel that nothing belonging to external Government Discipline and Exercise of the Ministery shall be performed otherwise than by stealth and in a clandestine way Augustine speakes of the Visibility of the Church in his time that it was then visible not that it had been before or should be after him always so visible M. We hold the perpetual universality of the Church and that the Church of Rome is such a Church you deny it Our Church denieth not the Catholique or universal Church 't is an Article of the three Creeds she holds That the Romish is such a Church she doth deny because 't is in none of their Creeds and yet if it be in the Scripture I dare promise for her she shall and will believe it As to that place of Psalm 2. 8. I will give thee the Heathen for thine Inheritance and the uttermost parts of the Earth for thy Possession It is a most clear Prediction of the calling of the Gentiles and that all the World shall be subdued by the power of the Gospel so here 's an Universality of Christ's Kingdom but not of the Romish Church But I confess the mischief is here is a Tibi dabo I will give thee and wheresoever the Church of Rome findes that she takes all for her own that follows Let us observe now Rom. 1. 8. I thank my God that your Faith is spoken of throughout the whole World That is to all the World it is published that Rome hath embraced the Christian Faith Is she the Catholique Church because of that sure this Text no way enforceth any such Illation for we are told as much of the Church of Thessalonica 1 Thess. 1. 8. that their Faith to God-ward is spread abroad in every place and then we must mend our Creed and say I believe the two Catholique Churches that of Thessalonica and that of Rome For his human Authorities take this note by the way and they are soon cleared The Primitive Church held that consent and unity in Doctrine made all Churches in truth to be One however distinguished by names The Church of Christ is One saith Cyprian divided into several Members through the whole World and this Unity made them al not only One but Apostolical and Primitive also for Omnes primae omnes Apostolicae dum unam omnes probant unitatem saith Tertullian All were Primitive all Apostolical whilest all shewed the same Unity yea and it made all Churches though otherwise particular Catholique too Therefore the Church of Alexandria was called the Catholique Church by Arsenius so Augustine was Catholicae Ecclesiae Episcopus Bishop of that Church which held the Catholique Faith and in this sense Rome was anciently stiled the Catholique Church So it was truly said by Hierome It is all one to say the Roman Faith and the Catholique Faith but though it was true then it is not true now for the Then and Now Roman Church are two M. We hold the Unity of the Church to be necessary in all points of Faith you deny it Our Church is here silent yet an Unity the Protestants hold too in essential matters of Faith and hold it so that if this Unity be a Note of the true Church they have there

without controul No sure admit they could prescribe for 1600 years must prescription prescribe and out Truth But can they prescribe for 1600 years in any one point where in they differ from us Can they in many for 1000 can they in some for 600 their grand Novelty of Transubstantiation will tell them no and it is well known the slender possession their errours have had hath not been so quiet so peaceable so undisturbed but that Truth hath made her constant and continual claim As for their evidence out of the word of God out of the word of God it is I confesse but it would do much better in it And in it they have so little as their greatest Clerks acknowledge that prayer to the Saints worshipping of their Images celebrating their festivals the not iterating of the Sacraments of Orders and confirmation are taught in Scripture neither expresly nor by implication So Bannes from whom Canus differeth onely in superadding the Sacrifice of the Eucharist As for the Fathers and Councels witnessing to that evidence such as the Scripture evidence is for the Papists such is their witnessing to that evidence just so and no more which more explicitely is just none at all For I challange them to produce any one Father of the first 500 years who held and maintained any one point of Doctrine as the Councel of Trent now holds where differing from us of Doctrine I say for in ceremonies they may I grant find many presidents in antiquity conformable to theirs As for our own acknowledgements sure his Lordship did not in good earnest and seriously think we Reputed and own'd Luther the Hussites the Waldenses for Ours no we always constantly urge them as Romish Catholiques though in some particulars they oppugned her Doctrine Thus his Lordships specious and flashy conclusion is reduced to a meer nothing And his Majesty was at this brunt in no great danger of becoming the Marques his convert Certain Considerations upon Dr BAYLY'S Interlocution concerning the True Church its being Judge of Scripture THe Doctor's Invective against Sacriledge shall create him no trouble from me I desire not to meddle with Impertinencies Since your Majesty was pleased to discharge the Watch which I had set before the Door of my Lips The Watch before the Door of your Lips was it seems of your own setting and because so 't is like his Majesty thought fit to discharge it not desiring to leave them without a Guard but hoping they might be relieved with that which the Prophet David call'd to God for Psalm 141. v. 3. I shall make bold to put your Majesty in minde of holding my Lord to the Demand which your Majesty once made unto his Lordship concerning the true Church for if once that Question were throughly determined all Controversies not onely between your Majesty and his Lordship but also all Controversies that ever were would soon be decided at a short race end And is there no way no means to end Controversies but by that which this fifteen hundred years and upward hath been disputed what it is and where to finde it Did God provide so ill for us as to leave us in suspense concerning the main points of Faith untill that Church which is yet in the clouds shall define what is the true sense of that Scripture which must guide us to eternal happinesse And if after 15 hundred years debate this Church were but in view some comfort it were to us but clear it is and a miserable case she is as far off for ought we know as ever for we are not agreed upon those marks and tokens by which she must be known Our Church the Church of England holds the purity of Doctrine preached agreeable to God's Word and Sacraments administred according to Christ's Ordinance to be the notes of it The papists hold they know not how many Bellarmine reckons fifteen but at last reduceth them to four according to the most usual and received Opinion amongst them Unity Holinesse Universality Succession as they are in the Nicene Creed but yet he comes reeling off too giving them no more than an Evidence of Credibility so that if a man will believe them he may and may not if he will and if we were agreed upon the true marks yet should we not be agreed upon the true Church for suppose the four mentioned before and urged by the Church of Rome be they yet we say they are more visible in our Church than in that of Rome There are not amongst us three hundred and three differences in points of Religion as hath been demonstrated in the Church of Rome and therefore ours the greater Unity For Holinesse that is a grace keeps home and stirs little abroad yet if we may judge of it by its fruits the papists cannot shew us more wicked members of our Church than we can them Heads of theirs so the thing Holinesse is ours let the Title be theirs For Universality Rome wherein she differeth from us cannot prove her Assertions from the testimony of the primitive Church in some points for a thousand years not in any for five hundred after Christ so we are the more Catholique Lastly for Succession of Doctrine which is the best Succession we derive ours from all the Apostles Rome onely from Peter derives onely a Succession of Chairs and yet it is not infallibly certain that ever Peter was at Rome much lesse Bishop there and therefore our Succession the best too so that as the case now stands between us we are not like to agree in haste Doctor I wish you could set us through and truly I must needs say in my opinion you have made a fair offer at deciding this Controversie when you said The true Church must be a Society of Men though I can go no further with you for that That Society of Men are to be supreme Judge of Scripture and Controversies Theological will not down with me nor I believe with many more For let that Society of Men be a General Councel which is a supposition of as much advantage to you as you can desire because it represents the Catholique Church and it is but a supposition too for though there have been before the Empire was split General Councels in former times yet as the case stands now it seemeth to wise men an incredible thing that ever such a Councel shall be again and Religion would be in a most sad condition were all controversies to stay for decision till then Besides Doctor it hath befallen some General Councels that there hath been shamefull packing and fore-stalling of Suffrages and Voices before they met and when met many have been frighted and minaced to vote clean contrary to their own sense and such Councels are but ill to be trusted with Questions of Faith in my poor opinion But suppose your Councel met and assembled and with all the fairest carriage and freedom you can desire they are but