Dorman vaine or euill thing neither because the Arrians and Anabaptistes vsed it neither for any other cause you haue therfore beelied me once more I acknowledge it to be bothe A lye 80. proffitable and necessarie only I saie that to ende all controuersies it is an insufficient meanes Because reiecting the determination of the churche you take vpon you as the Arrians did and the Anabaptistes doe to mainteine youre heresies by this pretensed conference of scripture not regarding that suche iudgement belongeth to the churche therefore I call yow and iustly terme you heretikes And as I doe reiect this conference that you talcke of because you vse it to that ende that these heretikes did so doe I refuse all suche scripture toe as is falsely wrested as was that whiche the diuell alleaged In whiche sense because Christe and his Apostles neuer alleaged anie I can not finde faulte with them I can not you saye deuise a waye that shoulde satisfye Nowell a. 20. all heretikes withoute all contradiction or exception on their parte I can deuise no waie in dede M. Nowell to satisfie al heretikes Dorman it passeth my power I cōfesse But God hathe deuised a waye to ouerthrowe all heresies if suche as you are woulde The way to ouerthrowe heresies be no let to his working And that is the thinge that ought to suffice vs. Will you knowe what waye it is Forsothe if this principle and grounde the which I labour to proue that Christes churche here in earthe being but one and visible hathe also one chiefe visible heade to rule and gouerne the same were thoroughly as it ought to be persuaded to all men then the heretike which nowe by coloured argumentes triumpheth ouer not onely the meaner sorte but also oftentimes many of the wiser and better learned the thinge called into question being either suche as is the question of baptising of infantes as whereof we haue no expresse scripture but onelye a tradition continued in the churche from the Apostles time and deliuered from hande to hande to vs either elles so perplexe and doubteful as the aduersarie will for his heresie bring not onely as many but mo textes also that shall seme to make for his purpose then shall the catholike as did the Arrian then shoulde I saye the heretike in al mens iudgemēt although neuer in his owne easely be discomfited and ouerthrowen For then let the Anabaptiste crie as muche as he woulde that the baptisme of infantes hathe no grounde of scripture the meanest man in a parishe woulde be able to tell him Sir the churche whiche I am bidden to giue eare to by the scripture vseth it and hathe done from the beginning this suffiseth me Againe let the Arrian bringe and heape together all the scripture that he hathe let him vse all his shiftes distinctions and gloses when he hathe all done the true catholike seketh after the interpretation of the churche that interpretation to witte that the membres agreing with the heade obserue and haue obserued vniuersally thoroughe out the whole worlde Thus if the more parte of men woulde doe as they ought neither woulde heretikes haue any list to publishe heresies their starting holes being by this wholesome remedie taken awaye neither shoulde they being brought furthe into the light be hable anie while to continue And this call I the ouerthrowing of heretikes and heresies For to persuade an indurat heretike by anye meanes I confesse it to be a thing impossible seing that not euerye man that is a true Christian can by conference of the scripture be by and by persuaded in all doubtes as you here vntruly saye he maye When partes be taken in opinions emongest learned men eache parte forcing the scriptures by conference and otherwise to make for that sense which he hathe conceiued is no man a true Christian but he that cā be satisfied in this case by the scripture Hath it not bene sene that the mainteiners of suche contrary opinions beinge for vertue and learning estemed of the worlde haue made also right good Christians to doubte And what case had Christe lefte vs in if in this perplexitie there were not a churche to directe vs if that churche had not a heade to speake to vs which being in S. Augustine and Prospers tyme Prosper lib. contra Collator cap. 10. Zozimus the Pope as you hearde before shewe vs nowe if you can why Pius the pope shoulde not be the lyke And thus you see M. Nowell I truste that you haue to muche abused bothe the Readers and me in labouring firste to persuade that I mislike the Scriptures whiche I doe in no sense or the conference thereof whiche I doe not simply but in this respecte that you contende that that waye alone is sufficient to ende all controuersies nexte in this that you altre my reason whiche is that because by this pretensed conference of youres heresies can neuer be ouerthrowen while by the subtilitye of heretikes alleaging scripture conferring scripture and that so probably that euen the best learned maye be shaken in their faithe and so heresie mainteined you make the same reason to be because there can no waye possibly be founde able to satisfie all frowarde heretikes Vppon this supposall of youres that I reiect this conference of scripture as no sufficient meane to ende all controuersies because it can not satisfie al men you aske this question And thinketh he that Popes of Rome men of suche lyfe suche Nowell b. 6. Holde the man a bowle for he will vomite partialitie suche ignorance such vntruthe such falsehode such bribery Simoniakes poisonners murtherers shal satisfie all men in all iudgementes of all causes and controuersies yea in their owne verye causes wherein they be parties and that without all exception The diuell they shall and that I may saye truly Non loqueris sed latras you speake not here M. Nowell Dorman but you barcke you reason not but you raile If all these faultes that you here heape together were in one pope at one time yeat shoulde they not be all any let why the same might not and shoulde not giue true iudgement and satisfie all good men To this I haue answered before where Cap. 3. fol. 8. b. 10 fol. 39. b. yow gaue me like occasion thither I remit the reader Yeat this I woulde faine knowe of yowe by the waie and desire yow when yow wright nexte to resolue me therein whether if these popes had the contraries to these vices that is so manie vertues yowe thinke they might giue true iudgement and satisfie all men If yow saie they could not what neded then this odiouse rehersall of so manie grieuouse faultes seing by no meanes they coulde If yowe saie that being good men they might then shewe scripture or bring reason to proue that this auctoritie is lost by euill manners In controuersies rising vpon the scripture the popes cause is not handled but gods and
run to morowe nexte with the bloude of heretikes as God of his tendre mercie forbid suche hardenes of harte in those that professe them selues to be Christians yeat ought not therefore the cause to be iudged anie whit the better seing that we see the cursed secte of Anabaptistes and haue heard of the wicked Donatistes and knowe beside that the diuell hathe aswell his false witnesses readie to suffer gladlie moste bitter deathe for their conceaued opinions as Christe hathe his true martirs to doe the like for the true catholike faithe Thus muche be saide to M. Nowelles impertinent discourse of copes vestimentes gilted crosses candelstickes c. and to his other idle talcke of the persecution forsothe and martirdome sauing youre reuerences of his deare brethern Nowe at the length he commeth to that whiche he shoulde chiefely haue answered in this place that is of thetrieng of all controuersies by the only scripture To proue that of controuersies rising about the true vnderstandinge of the scripture the scripture it selfe should be the iudge he vseth a similitude wherin he compareth vs to the phariseis and him selfe and his companions to the Apostles And vpon that comparison reasoneth in effecte as foloweth As in the controuersie betwene the Apostles and the Phariseis Nowell fol. 69. a. 1 the question being whether Christe were the true Messias the Apostles affirming the Phariseis denieng if the matter had bene referred to the interpretation and determination of the high prieste and his consistorie we mighte yeat haue loked withe the Iues for Messias to come and as it was no reason that in the controuersie betwene the saide highe priestes and the Apostles whether they had put Christe iustlie or vniustlie to death they shoulde be them selues the iudges who were not onelie accessaries but the principall partes to the murther so must we nowe with the Apostles make the scripture the iudge of oure controuersies and the pope by all reason must be excluded as he that is the sinke of all the abhominations wherewith he that hath but halfe an eye maie see how shamefully the lawe of God is as it was by the Phariseis corrupted Youre similitude M. Nowell halteth and is not able Dorman therefore to go so far as it should For the better declaration whereof it is to be knowen that as sone as Iohn the Baptist Matth. 11. began to preache the Synagoge which had no promise to continue for euer began to languishe and so was at the length weakened that after Christes deathe it came to nothing Christe hauing then established a newe church and made his Apostles the doctours and iudges thereof and Peter the gouernour of all Now see I praye you how this similitude of youres holdeth The Apostles being the true church of Christe referred not their controuersies to the Phariseis which perteined not to the church yea were enemies and persecutours thereof but referred the same to the scriptures and iudged by the scriptures them selues ergo the church of Christe that is nowe maye not be the iudge of controuersies but we must refer the same to the scriptures I denie that consequent M. Nowell You proue it because the Apostles did not referre their controuersies to the high priestes and Phariseis I graunte you for their priestehode and auctoritie was expired When you shal be hable to proue vs Phariseis and your selues the true churche then maie you by this similitude reason that as the Apostles referred not the iudgement of the meaning of the scriptures to the Phariseis which were not the church nor of the church so you will not being the church refer the matter to vs but iudge of the scripture your selues as the Apostles The Apostles being the true churche of Christe iudged of the scriptures did In the meane season as the Apostles alleaged for thē selues the scripture and saied it made for thē wherein they gaue iudgement of the scripture so foloweth it that Christes church which is now the same that was then iudgeth in al controuersies which is the right and true sense Neither can it serue you to saie to the contrarie as you doe sclaunderouslie that the worde of God hauing bene moste shamefully by vs corrupted as he that hath but halfe an eye maie well see it is no reason being parties that we shoulde be iudges therein Seing that thus might the Phariseis haue saide euen of the Apostles them selues and laied to their charges partialitie because they were Christes scholers and disciples and so parties to the cause whiche they mainteined and also for that you haue not as yeat proued nor euer shal be hable to proue that Christes church hath euer erred in the faith or the heade thereof at anie time deliuered to the church any tradition or erroniouse opinion whereby the worde of God hath bene corrupted Which assertion of youres being moste directly against the scriptures bearing witnes so manifestly Math. 14. 16. Ioan. 14. alibi of the continuance of the churche incorrupted so often auouched by you and being the only fundation of this plea of youres that we be the Phariseis and you Christes true Apostles me thinketh you should haue done well once in so often affirming it to haue proued by one sentence of scripture or some approued auctor and not facingly to saye that he that hathe but halfe an eye maie see that it is so or elles till you coulde haue proued it it had bene more for your honestie to haue absteined from suche vnmercifull and vnchristianlike demeanure as you vse towardes bothe the church of Christe and the head thereof Where you saye that I will haue the scripture reiected there you reporte vntrulie of me This I saie that scripture not thorough anie imperfection or insufficiencie that is in it but onelie by occasiō of stubborne wrangling and contentiouse natures who neuer will giue ouer the opinion that they haue once conceiued euerie one being at apoint to receiue no other interpretation thereof thē to them shal seme good is not hable to ende and determine al cōtrouersies moued vpō the lettre thereof and that therfore euen as in the lawes of the realme whiche were to decide all controuersies sufficient so that the lawe being broughte euerie man woulde furthewithe yealde to it because they will not there be iudges by the prince appointed to cut of all altercations and to preserue the realme in quiet who when the councellours bothe of the one parte and the other haue contentiouslie disputed the matter eache of them affirming that the lawe is on his side shall by opening the meaning thereof ende the strife So is it not to be thought but that God forseing the innumerable sectes of heretikes that shoulde trouble his churche of whome there shoulde be no one no not of them that directlie blush not to teache Suencfeldius that there ought to be no scripture at all that woulde not colourablie defende the same by scripture it is not I saie to be
or some other like vnto it If this were not youre meaning M. Nowell why cut you of the worde quaÌ„uis at the beginning and these other in the middest Tell vs some other cause if you can Next after these auctorities you alleage a treatie of one fo 73. a. Borowed of the coÌ„fession of wittenberge Tit. de Eccles that you set furth Rhetorically calling him an auncient auctor printed withe Chrisostome and of long time taken for him to proue that the churche must be tried by the scriptures To this place I answere that whether it be Chrisostomes owne worcke from whence it is taken or no this is a thing moste certeine that it is to be warily readen as the boke which hath thrust into it if it be Chrisostomes owne or anie other catholike mannes by some false Arrian heretike manie poisoned and perniciouse sentences for the maintenaunce of the Arrians heresie Emongest other to note to you one or two euen in the. 48. homilie whiche is the verie nexte before this that you alleage here the Catholikes for mainteining the equalitie of Christe with God the father are nombred emongest heretikes and in the. 45. they are called heretikes that holde that the blessed trinitie is equall of like substance and auctoritie And therefore in suche places as this auctor who so euer it be dissenteth from the common faithe of Christes churche we haue iust cause to suspect that there this heretike who hath it appeareth ouerronne the whole hath dipped in his fingres and therefore that we reiect As in this place it is likely that he thought to make a waie for his heresies by chalenging to be tried by the scripture onelie the common request of the Arrian heretikes because the worde they saide Homousion was not to be founde in the scriptures But nowe if these wordes were Chrisostomes owne and not put in by the heretike yeat foloweth it not that because the churche is to be tried by the scriptures onelie that therefore all other questions maie be decided by the same alone For God whose wisedome diuised whose holie spirite brethed whose finger wrote the scriptures as for heretikes that coÌ„temne the auctoritie of the churche he hath so disposed them as Tertullian writeth that they might ministre them Lib. de praescript aduers haeres matter so hathe he againe for them that shal be content humblie to rest in the lappe of the same made that matter by the scriptures so clere that a catholike man maie be bolde to prouoke an heretike yea all the heretikes in the worlde to dispute by scripture onelie of that question whiche and where is the true churche And suerlie so was it expedient that it shoulde be that the churche whiche shoulde iudge of the true sense and meaning of the scriptures shoulde by the scriptures be so euidentlie proued that about that their might be no wrangling As it is not to be merueiled therefore if anie catholike man giue councell to proue the church by the scriptures the scriptures speaking of the churche as hath S. Austen more plainelie then they â—narrat in psal 30 doe of Christe him selfe and therto being writteÌ„ so euideÌ„tly that the textes making for the trial therof nede no interpretatioÌ„ Lib. de vnitate ecdes ca. 16 so can you not reason that all other controuersies in semblable wise must be tried by the scripture because the scripture is more ambiguouse in other maters and because the church is proued so plainelie that it might afterwarde hauing the continuall assistence of Goddes holie spirite and being the piller of truthe assuer vs being in doubte of the true meaning of scripture And thus muche for answere to your long place alleaged to so little purpose out of that auncient auctor printed withe Chrisostome and of long time takeÌ„ for him By whose auctoritie lest the worekes of S. Clement making so muche against youre newe A sleight of M. nowells doctrine might get anie credite being here alleaged by this auncient auctor printed with Chrisostome and of long time taken for him you toke youre pen in to youre hande and cut that sentence clene awaie Hauing nowe spent youre store of testimonies brought fo 74. b. 9 by you to proue that the scripture alone ought to be the iudge of all controuersies you returne to youre olde plea so often auouched and neuer proued that we be the phariseis and therfore can not be the true churche of god that you alleage scriptures against vs as the Apostles did against the phariseis of whom and vs you saye furder as foloweth And I am suer that the high prieste withe his Iuishe churche Nowell b. 29. was able to saye as muche for the ordinarie succession of the highe priestes his predecessours euen from Aaron vntill his time for antiquitie for consent and for vniuersality against Christe and his Apostles so fewe in comparison and as it semed latelye start vp as yowe are able to saye for youre churche or againste vs. But yeat we doe thinke that the worde of God as it was alleaged by Christe and hys Apostles againste the saide high prieste and his churche so maye it and ought it allso to be alleaged by vs againste youre highe prieste and youre churche cet What so euer the Phariseis had to saye againste the Apostles Dorman for them selues they had not this to saye whiche we haue againste you that theire churche was by the testimonies of the Scriptures promised to continue for euer The Apostles proued to them the contrary oute of the scriptures if you can doe the lyke to vs and shewe by euident scriptures that the churche of Christe shoulde for the space of fiftene hundred or nine hundred yeares either be ouerthrowen and at the length restored by a newe Messias we renounce the benefite off succession we giue ouer antiquitie consent vniuersalitye and what so euer elles Thus alleaged the Apostles the worde of God against the Phariseis Thus must you alleage it against vs if you will alleage it at all And whether you be so or no the true church of god seing it Nowell fol. 75. a. 23. is in question and a greater doubte and controuersie emongest men I am suer then can be aboute the sense of anye place off the scripture yow shall neuer be hable to make anie exception to the scripture as no competent iudge in controuersies but we shall be able ten tymes more to make exception to youre Pope and his churche as no indifferent nor meete iudge We make no exception nor euer did againste the scripture Dorman as of it selfe an incompetent iudge to determine controuersies This we saye that the frowardenes of men addicted to mainteine their once receiued opinions maketh that the scripture is not alone sufficient to decide the same till the church haue giuen sentence betwene those that shall thus contende which is the true meaning of the scripture How the scripture decideth controuet
therefore they be no parties thereto Whereas yowe promise so largely on the diuelles behalfe yow maie be bolde for as muche as he is hable to doe he is at youre commaundement To youre conclusion that the worde of God is the true B. 13. iudge in all controuersies and doubtes of religion I saie as I saide before that when the church hathe giuen sentence of the meaning and right vnderstanding of the scripture that then in that sense and no otherwise the scripture is the true iudge in all controuersies otherwise I saie that the worde of God lieng yeat in the lettre as it were in the huske is an vncerteine iudge to determine controuersies what so euer Luther Caluin or their adherentes the rest of that blacke garde do saye to the contrarie or be M. Nowell neuer so angry therewith Whereas I declared before what starting holes the Arrians Fol. 105. a ▪ 23. rians Anabaptistes Lutherans Caluinistes and other heretikes haue founde out for the mainteinaunce of their religion and that vpon the same groundes and principles anye desperate heretike that is maie mainteine anye heresie yow take occasion of that worde desperate heretike to reherce once againe a place of S. Cyprian where he calleth by the same name yowe saie all suche as thinke one bishop inferiour to an other as I and all other papistes Cap. 11. sub finem doe but the contrarie to that I haue showed before And surely to thinke thus if it be to be a desperate heretike M. Nowell contrarie to him selfe or a desperate heretike and papist by his owne confessiō or a papist either I praie yowe what be yowe M. Nowell that in youre boke fol. 32. a confesse that in euerie prouince there be certeine chiefe prelates Doeth not the worde chiefe import that there be other inferiour prelates Which worde if yow will nowe reuoke againe if youre bishop will not I trust youre pretensed Archebishop will call yow to a count for it That whiche foloweth fol. 105. b. and. 106. a. because it conteineth but vaine wordes and hathe bene in diuerse other places handled I will here passe ouer Of the place of S. Hierome taken out of his epistle to Damasus and that it hathe bene alleaged to the purpose without wresting or falsifieng The 28. chapiter PROSEcuting this controuersie whether the scripture as we haue it written were hable alone without other meanes to determine all controuersies the whiche the heretike seeth being proued that it can not it will nedes folowe that there must be some other iudge to supplie that office I saide that S. Hierome notwithstanding his greate and excellent knowledge in the tongues woulde not take vpon him to leane in the discussing of doubtes to that rule of theirs to laie and confer together one texte with an other but referred him selfe to the see of Rome c. whose example I exhorted also other to folowe To this M. Nowell answereth as foloweth S. Hierome saieth no where that he would enot compare the Nowell fol. 106. a. 23. scripture together for the discussing of doubtes as M. Dorman woulde beare vs in hande and S Austen saieth he woulde doe it and exhorteth other to doe the same Where doe I beare yowe in hande that S. Hierome Dorman saide that he woulde not not compare the scriptures together A lye 81 ▪ for the discussing of doubtes Why noted you not here the leafe and side I denie not but that it is a necessarie and verie proffitable waie of reading the scriptures to conferre the places together And so doubte I not but that S. Hierome aswell as S. Augustine vsed to doe The whiche maketh verye muche for the Catholique opinion that all questions can not be discussed by thys conference off scripture For iff they coulde what neded S. Hierome so well learned as he was in this controuersie betwene the Catholikes and the Arrians to write so far out of the wildrenes of Syria to Damasus the pope a man allthough singulerly well learned yeat not comparable with him for learning to be resolued at his mouthe what parte to take whereas he had with him the scriptures of God by the whiche by youre saing if he had diligently conferred them together he might haue bene fully instructed in al pointes What ment he elles that he vsed not nowe his accustomed maner of conference but that he sawe that this was a question that coulde not so be tried and therefore he woulde consulte Damasus who being he persuaded him selfe the successour of Peter shoulde be able sufficiently by the grace giuen to that office to resolue him in that which by all his owne labour and diligence he were not at all or not so soone and certeinly hable to finde out S. Hieromes wordes to Damasus Bishop of Rome make nothing Nowell against vs nor with M. Dorman For what merueile is it if that S. Hierome borne in a coast of Italy christened at Rome brought vp at Rome and made prieste at Rome woulde in the faithe of the blessed Trinitie rather ioyne him selfe in communion with Damasus bishop of Rome a learned and godly mā then with Vitalis and Meletius whome M. Dorman calleth Miletus and Paulinus who were Antiochiā bishoppes and therfore strangiers to him and also not cleere from the Arrian heresie That you reporte of S. Hierome that he was borne in a Dorman The place of S. Hieto me to Damasus Tom. 2. epist ad Damasum examined Lib. de ecclesiastie scriptorib coast of Italie it is vntrue For he was as he writeth him selfe borne in a towne called Stridon in the borders of Dalmatia and Pannonia whereas Italie it is well knowen neuer reached so farre or if it had neuer did the peculier prouince of the bishop of Rome extende thither for whiche respect Damasus might be accounted his bisshop But supposing this to be as true as the rest that he was Christened at Rome c. Yeat the causes whiche S. Hierome addeth why he ioyned him selfe to him rather then to anie other maie euidently make faithe that neither because he was borne in a coaste of Italie neither because he was christened brought vp or made prieste in Rome but because he was the successour of Peter he ioyned him selfe to hym in communion rather then to anie other For that ment he by these wordes Beatitudinituae id est cathedrae Petri communione consocior To youre holinesse that is to saye to Peters chaire am I ioyned in communion Tell vs if you can what there neded here anie mention of Peters chaire to be made but that he woulde declare therby the only respect of his communicating with him to be because he was the successour of Peter An other cause which yeat might trulier be called a cause or reason of the first cause why he ioyned him selfe to him that sate in Peters chaire your selfe woulde seme to haue founde out in these wordes folowing But will M. Dorman saye S. Hierome
wolud woulde   26 ouersthrowe ouerthrowe 27 b 25 tho warte thow arte 51 a 32 betwe betwene 57 b 3 saunderouse slaunderouse 58 a 29 as in well as well 64 b 2 plaees places 65 b 3 praesbiterum presbyterum 74 a 24 ades heades 81 b 25 Macedonio Macedonia 82 b 5 nexte chap. nexte chap. saue one 96 b 6 Agipto AEgipto 98 b 26 Aricans Africans 108 a 1 toke on take on 155 b 10 amsuer am suer 179 a 15 churchand churche and 182 a 13 not not cōpare not compare 192 b 23 * Specially to be corrected fidei ecclesiae 198 b 1 call then call them 205 b 32 African Africanes    esbeare beare 211 b 7 in ipiet incipiet    * Specially to be corrected ipsa est sedes Petri ipsa est petra    shall not doe not In margine 86 a 21 Dorman Nowell 108 a 28 Goddes gooddes If yow finde any other faultes I trust yow will frendely amende them youre selues and considre that we printe not withe suche ease as doe oure aduersaries whose bookes yeat lacke not their faultes HONY SOYT QVI. MAL. Y. PENSE God saue the Quene A DISPROVFE OF M. NOVVELLES REPROVFE THAT the sentence prefixed before my boke to proue the Protestants Schismatikes was not abused and that M. Nowell hath passed ouer in silence the chiefe pointe in it The. 1. Chapter I TOLDE yow M. Nowell before that in this youre long Reproufe of mine so fewe leaues yow had for youre pleasure walcked oftentimes farre out of the way and that therfore I woulde in no wise binde my selfe allwaies to folowe your steppes As euen here in the very entrie to giue men to vnderstande what they are lyke to finde yow in youre whole processe leauing S. Austens interpretation vpon the place of scripture wherby he proueth them to be Math. 7. the rauening wolues that are schismatikes and those to be schismatikes who communicate not with all nations nor those churches that haue bene founded by the Apostles labour yow slily slip from that to youre owne and beare vs in hande that we are the Phariseis of whome oure Sauiour spake the saide wordes Because we walcke grauely in long garmentes pretende long praiers c. Leauing therfore all this by talcke of youres as wide from our purpose I will come to the pointe of the question which is betwene vs M. Nowell whether I lacked iudgement or store of choise in choosing this sentence of S. Austen to sette before my boke or no. Of the which I saie that all were it so that yow had clerely vanquished S. Austen and proued that this texte had bene to be vnderstande against vs because we go in long gownes grauely and yow clime in clokes vp in to pulpites or walcke in long robes lightly yeat had this mised to leaue no one suche sentence vnanswered Ergo the reader maye iudge by this how likely yow are to deale truly hereafter that begin so trustely That the places alleaged by me oute of S. Cyprian Lib. 3. epist 11. and lib. 4. epist 9. were alleaged to the purpose The. 2. Chapter I conclude therefore that these places are by M. Dorman falsely Nowell Fol. 2. b. 7 and shamelesly alleaged to make a showe or as he calleth it an introduction to the B. of Romes auctoritie whereunto they appertaine nothing at all but onely to the euersion thereof I neuer brought these places M. Nowell to proue the Dorman popes supremacie Yow nede not therfore to trouble youre selfe with the prouse of this that they apperteine to the deacon disobeing his bishop Rogatian and to Pupianus abusing S. Cyprian But allthough I graunte yow thus much M. Nowell yeat that these places because they proue not the popes supremacie appertaine therefore nothing at all to him but only to the euersion of his auctoritie that faultie and vntrue conclusion I can in no wise graunte to yow not allthough yow thinke to vnderproppe that ruinouse collection as yow doe with this sclendre staye that there is not one worde in these places of the bishop of Rome Fol. 2. a. 1. b. 6. or hys Supremacy nor he as muche as once named therein For yow shoulde haue considered M. Nowell that I entreate here in this place of the maner and nature of heretikes and schismatikes Which is I saie to rebell against their heades to contemne their superiours and laufull gouernours Nowe as youre selfe woulde not I trowe saie that if anie of yow shoulde by writing or anie other vnlaufull meanes which god forbid go about to stirre vpp the people against oure laufull Quene he shoulde speake impertinently to the purpose that to disswade them therefro shoulde begin his purposed talcke after this manner Remembre my frendes that the nature and propretie of heretikes is and allwaies hath bene after that they be once waxen strong to rebell and make warre against their laufull gouernours Remembre the late tumultes raysed in Fraunce by the Huguenotes there against their gouernour as I saie it is not to be thought that yow woulde reiect this mannes exhortation calling it impertinent to the matter tending to the euersion of the Quenes auctoritie because the example brought was of disobedience to an other prince betwene him and his subiectes and not in termes of the Quene oure maistres so surely ought yow no more to haue quarelled against me bringing these examples out of S. Cyprian Especially seing that I presupposed and afterwardes proued in the discourse of that article that the B. of Romes auctoritie was no lesse ouer the whole churche in spirituall matters then is that of other princes ouer their seuerall kingdomes in temporall iurisdiction The which pointe if yow had done ordrely yow ought first to haue confuted that so iustlie after suche disproufe yow might haue reproued the applieng of these auctorities There is no mention made in anie of these places of the B. of Cauntorbury ne yeat of London neither all though youre selfe graunte that by these places yt is proued that euery inferiour ought to be obedient to his owne bishop as Fol. ◠b. 14. his superiour and that the disobedience of suche is cause of schismes and heresies Whereupon what letted me in my preface to applie aswell these places to the disobeing of the B. of Rome allthough he be not there named as for yow when the case shall so requier to applie them to the bishoppes of Cauntorbury or London no more there then the pope mentioned by name Who is as I saide before as truly the bishop of the whole church as anie other is ouer his owne propre diocesse Yow go forwarde and saie Onely this is moste euident in what sense so euer S. Cyprian Nowell fo 2. b. 19. taketh these wordes One bishopp that ruleth the churche the B. of Carthage is that one bishop and not the B. of Rome and therfore that phrase of one bishop can make nothing
of youres to Dorman this place borowed of Ruffians and ribauldes not of any that haue either learning or witte is most farre from the auctours meaning whiche as anie that vieweth the place will easely perceiue so is it in Eusebius from whome Nicephorus toke it moste euident euen at the eye For Eusebius hath that Nouatus made them sweare per ea quae vnusquisque tenebat in manibus by those thinges which euery one Lib. 6. cap. 34. of them helde in his handes but they sware by the bodye and bloud of Christe saieth Nicephorus ergo they had the bodie and bloud of Christe in their handes Well although you doubted whether youre stamping staring and swearing alehouse solution shoulde finde with all men suche credite that they woulde by and by beleue yow yeat of this you doubted nothing to make some men at the least beleue that the doctrine of transsubstantiation Fol. 8 a. 4. were by this place quite ouerthrowen and withall to set furth youre selues to the worlde as the verie folowers of the primitiue churche in deliuering the sacrament into the receiuers handes But this ioy if you conceiued anie hereof you are like to enioy but a while M. Nowell For both Eusebius and Nicephorus calling here the sacrament by the name of bread are to be vnderstand to haue folowed therin the phrase of scripture which either so calleth it as did S. Paule because a littell before it so was as Moises rod being 1. Cor. 11. turned in to a serpent was in scripture called notwithstanding Exod. 7. a rod and saide by the name of a rodde to haue deuoured the roddes of the enchauntors which were also serpentes or as oure sauioure him selfe did not meaning by this worde bread the substance of materiall bread but the true bread of life Ioan. 6. Whereas you saye oute off Nicephorus that they Fol. 8. b 5. tasted that which they receiued and expound it thus that is to saye bread that is youre owne blinde glose and is not in the text If you woulde nedes playe the expositour yow should haue referred that tasting of theirs to the bodye and bloude of Christ which he made them sweare by and which went next in the sentence before So shoulde yow haue done the part of a true interpretour and haue made Nicephorus agree with the auncient fathers of Christes churche and namelie to omitt Tertullian Chrisostome and diuerse other with Cirillus the B. of Alexandria who saith of this matter quomodo Lib. 4. in Ioan ca. 14 non viuemus qui carnem illam gustamus manducamus How can it be that we shoulde not liue who doe both taste and eate that fleshe But what speake I of making him to agree with other when by this meanes you shoulde haue made him to agree with him selfe who in other places for that which he calleth here simply bread ioining thereunto an epithetoÌ„ calleth it vitalis panis liuely bread And whereas Lib. 1. cap. 30. yow would haue him to saye that in this place the communicantes held breade in their haÌ„des and tasted breade in rehearsing the oration which S. Ambrose made to Theodosius the emperour minding to entre in to the churche of Milain bringeth in S. Ambrose emongest other thinges speaking after this sorte Quomodo manus extolles quae caede Lib. 12. cap. 41. iniqua diffluunt Quomodo in eis diuinuÌ„ etiam corpus excipies Quomodo sanguineÌ„ praetiosum ad os afferes per quod ira transuersim actus tantuÌ„ effudisti sanguinis that is How wilt thow lift vp thy handes which flow with wicked murdre yea how wilt thow receiue in them the diuine body How wilt thow bring to thy mouthe the pretiouse blood by the which being caried away with angre thow hast spilt so muche bloud B. 15. S. Austen calleth the sacrament of Chrâ—stes bodie and bloude the sacrament of the altar I made no lye neither yeat dissembled the truthe or cloked the matter as yow charge me vntruly by calling this heauenly and liuely bread the blessed sacrameÌ„t of the altar with the which worde if yow be offended yow maye chalenge S. Austen for his worde it is and not mine It is yow M. Nowell that haue muche daungered youre honestie by falsifieng this place of Nicephorus For where he hath Cum Lib. 10. de Ciuit dei cap. 6. oblationes offerret qui mos sacerdotibus est when he offered the oblations as the maner of priestes is yow adde to the text this worde his and saye when he made his oblations Which The place of Nicephorus falsified worde of youres so conueighed in is such a spiteful worde as destroieth the whole minde of the auctor For whereas we defende the consecration of Christes bodye and bloude of which name yow are ashamed as appeareth by youre ConsecratioÌ„ as they terme it although S. Austen so affirmed the same against Manicheus the heretike that he saieth plainely iff Lib. 20. cap. 13. the bread and chalice be not consecrate it is foode for refection but not a sacrament of religion whereas we I saye defende such consecration to be an oblation and sacrifice when yow sawe the wordes of Nicephorus to meane the publike oblations of the whole churche which are the bodye and bloude of Christe yow thought that sense to be litle for youre aduantage and therfore it semed good counsell to shift in the worde his to the intent it might be thought that Nouatus had offred somewhat of his owne priuate deuotion Let the worlde nowe iudge M. Nowell whether this be true dealing or no. As for youre bragging how yow folow the vsage of the primitiue churche by giuing the sacrament into their handes who receiue it I aske yow this question grounding the Ad Ianuar epist 118. same vpon S. Austen why yow wrangle more aboute the giuing the sacrament in to the receiuers handes because they so toke it in the primitiue churche then yowe doe about the receiuing it fasting which Christ and his apostles did not If that be altered which Christ and his apostles did for the more honour of this greate sacrament why might not for the same reason or for some other as greate or greater the other manner of receiuing it into the handes be abolished also and taken awaye and yow counted schismatikes for breaking the peace of the church Why cause yow not yong babes to communicate againe as once they did in the primitiue churche and then make youre bragges thereof to that yow kepe the vsage of the primitiue churche Now that yow haue discoursed learnedly as yow thinke Fo. 9. a. 3. vpon the place of Nicephorus with charging me off mingling impertinent thinges by the waye c. Whereas he that hath but halfe an eye maye see that without I woulde haue out of halfe the sentence I coulde doe no otherwise then I did Which if I had yow woulde not belike neither haue
13. 1562. aut tonsorem aut circulatorem circumforaneum aut aliqueÌ„ huiusmodi ministerio adhibituÌ„ qui bonas liter as ne à limi ne quideÌ„ vnquaÌ„ salutarit At this daye in manie places a man shal finde either a shoemaker or a cowhearde or a barbar or a iuggler or a mountebancke ronneagate or some suche other made ministre who neuer strided so muche as ouer the tresshold into the schole where good learning is taught Where you saye that we haue burned so many of youre learned clerckes that you are driuen to supply small cures with fol. 17. a. some honest artificiers surelie loke ouer youre calendre againe and you shal finde that the greatest nombre of them was of suche craftesmen as we speake of and that the learned that passed that waies were verye fewe to haue furnished those cures that youre honest craftes men be as it is were into their shoppes crept into Howe the saing of S. Cyprian that heresies and schismes rise of the contempt of the bishop which is one is applied to the B. of Rome The 6. chapitre I saied that it had bene declared by S. Cyprian before Epistol 9. Lib. 4. that the diuell in his attemptes against the churche vsed alwaies to beginne with the banishement of the bishop whiche is one c. By this one bishop in this place you saie I make Saint Cyprian vnderstande the B. of Rome I doe so M. fo 17. b. 18 Nowel but not directly or immediatly You are deceiued much and vnderstaÌ„d not my meaning if you so thinke For as I confesse that bothe in the one place and in the other of S. Cyprian he maie vnderstande the bishoppes and gouernours of euery particuler churche so am I not also ignorant that youre conclusion Ergo there is not one worde ment off the bishop off Rome is moste false For when S. Cyprian saied in these places that schismes whiche arise by the diuels worcking where so euer they springe vp come by the banishing of their auctoritie who be appointed to gouerne the churche let it be I graunt so muche of euery bishop in his owne diocesse might not I who presupposed in this introduction of mine which in the processe also I proued that the B. of Rome was the chiefe heade of all other conclude that then by a greater reason S. Cyprians minde was that schismes and heresies shoulde come by the forsaking of the B. of Rome allthough by name he spake not of him As if for example it were written in the lawes of oure realme Treasons and rebellyoÌ„ ryse by the coÌ„temning of the lieuetenaunt which is one in the Shiere shoulde he now saye amisse that to exhorte men to abide in the obedience of their prince woulde reason from the auctoritie of the lawe that by contempt of the kinge rebellion the trouble-feast of all good ordre taketh beginning I thinke no man will so saye And yeat speaketh not the lawe by name off the king Allthough no man can denie but that if the lawe woulde so saie of an inferiour membre it woulde not let to saie as muche of the chiefe membre of all Yow will graunte youre selfe that although S. Cyprian named not the B. of Rome yeat in that sence as he is bishopp of the diocesse of Rome he ment of him Which seing you doe why maie not I who take him to haue aswell iurisdiction ouer the whole churche as ouer that of Rome applye to him by the waye of introduction this place as well as you doe to euery particuler bishop notwithstanding they be not by name mentioned which is youre reason here made to the contrary And thus muche for the applieng of this place to the B. of Rome And as for the quietnes peace securitie B. 25. plenty of thinges c. that yow saye you haue nowe more then of late vnder the pope if you meane of youre selfe and youre companions comparing youre present state with that of late of Geneua surely I thinke yow saye truthe Although I ment generallie and of the better parte of the realme For allthough you wallow in wealth and youre selues be so prouided for either to abide or to flye with youre banckes as it is supposed all readye made in the marchantes handes although the wooddes wasted the leade plucked from the greate palaces haules and kitchins to greate for youre little hospitalitie and small roste the beneuolences exacted of the pore priestes haue filled youre coffers finally although youre brattes be prouided of the best fermes and manours belonging to the churches to the whiche by the olde canons I speake of the children of Conâ—iâ— Tolâ—â—an 9. Can. 10. priestes for you I vnderstand are but a single solled ministre they ought to be bond sclaues yeat are other men pinched and complaine of the lacke of that quietnes that peace that securitie and plenty of thinges that 30. yeares ago they had For you abuse men to much to compare the time present with the late time of Quene Marye in the which neither was the popes auctoritie fully restored with all men neither would Dauus suffer vs to enioy this quietnes peace c that you speake of who by violent armes by seditiouse bokes by sclaunderouse tongues by infamouse and lieng libelles finally by all meanes sought to hindre the same and to stirre vp the subiect against the prince And yeat in good sooth the comparison being so made the oddes is not so cleare as yowe take it to be But how euer it be M. Nowell I spake here of no suche worldly respectes as yow woulde seme to make me I spake and ment of ouerthrowing of churches and altars of the contempt of learned men of the teaching of euil doctrine of the promoting to ecclesiasticall ministeries weuers tynckers coblers bromemen c. I ment of peace and quietnesse in conscience of simplicitie and vpright dealing betwene man and man with suche like thinges Which if youre selfe doe not perceiue since oure first reuolt from the pope to be muche empaired then are yow a piece of deade fleshe and desperatly braine sicke For so saieth Hippocrates of them who being sicke feale not the griefe of their disease Youre promise to proue that where the pope hath had the greatest auctoritie there he hath brought in with him all miseries mischiefes c. shall in the place where you perfourme it be answered Howe Maximus Vrbanus and Sidonius went from the churche by not acknowledging the auctoritie of the B. of Rome and how they returned to the same againe by acknowledging it The. 7. Chapter M. Nowell after that he hath declared that the state of the controuersie betwene Nouatus whome Maximus Vrbanus and Sidonius folowed and Cornelius the pope was which of them two was a catholike bishop holding the truthe and truly and laufully chosen by God and which was the intruder and not of the catholike churche but an heretike concludeth thus Wherefore it is euident that when M.
Dorman saieth thaâ— Nowell Fo. 19. a. 32 those men returned againe to the churche by this waye that is to saye by the acknowledging Cornelius to be the heade of the vniuersall churche he saieth moste vntruly Yf you considre well my wordes M. Nowell that went Dorman last before and vpon which these depende you shall finde that I doe here as sence the beginning I haue done kepe my selfe close to the argument of my preface or introduction Which is to shewe that the going from the heade is the cause of all schisme and the returning to the same the cause of vnitie and concorde This as it is euidently true whether the heade be particuler or generall so the more that suche heade is generall and vniuersall the more true is it The schisme hath bene proued by the departing of Nouatus the heretike from Cornelius his laufull head the B. of Rome The vnitie is here declared by the returne of Maximus Vrbanus and Sydonius from the Lib. 2. epist 12. faction of Nouatus to pope Cornelius What nede yow then here to laye to my charge that I saye vntruly that these men returned to the churche by acknowledging Cornelius to be the heade of the vniuersall churche which as I saye not in this place so was it not nedefull that I shoulde My wordes haue relation to those other where I saye that we first reuolt froÌ„ the church by contemning and not acknowledging the heade without any expresse mention of the heade of the vniuersall churche and that so muste our returne thither againe be by the coÌ„trary c. And that so did those that after their falle with Nouatus S. Cyprian receiued into the church againe What So did they construe englishe M. Nowell I praye yow did they not so returne to their heade as they had forsaken him Doe not yowe confesse as muche youre selfe in this verye place well then this place proueth well that vnitie acknowledged is the ende of diuision which is the onely marke that I shoote at in this preface That this vnitie is especially to be considered in the pope that was not to be showed here but woulde folowe I knew of it selfe vpoÌ„ this fundatioÌ„ laied here after there where the popes auctoritie shoulde of purpose be handled It coÌ„meth in by the waye as it were that the example is founde betwene the B. of Rome and Nouatus going from his vnitie and Maximus returning to it Any other example would haue serued my turne in this behalfe but the case standing so that I had to treate of the B. of Rome those examples liked me best which being directly of him might better declare the vnitie and more liuely set furthe the schisme by how muche the one or the other was greater as falling from or ioyning with him who was not a common bishop but the head or chiefe of all other Although I might well defende that this exaÌ„ple is suche as is that which foloweth of Vrsatius and Valens as maye serue bothe for my preface to commend vnitie and for the matter it selfe to proue the popes auctoritie by acknowleding thereof For you see here that they confessed that there must be one bishop in the catholike churche Which wordes not withstanding that you labour to drawe to an other sense and I denie not but that they haue some ambiguitie Yeat if we considre of whome they were spoken that is of Cornelius the B. of Rome and successour of Peter called by Arnobius an auncient writer Episcopus episcoporuÌ„ the bishop of bishopps it wil not be absurde to thinke that by that one bishop they meÌ„t the B. In psal 138. of Rome successour of Peter and so the bishop of bishoppes Here because no small vauÌ„tage as you iudge lieth in the traÌ„slating of these words in ecclesia catholica you thinke that Nowell Fol. 20. a. 20. I shoulde haue said in a catholike church In dede if I were of youre minde that the chaire of S. Dorman Peter were but one emongest manie like or equall and his churche as one of the rest the translation might well haue bene vsed that you speake of But whereas I am resolued and proue it in place that there is difference betwene S. Peters Lib. 2. de baptis coÌ„tra Donat Cap. 1. chaire as hath S. Austen and the chaires of other bisshoppes that the churche of Rome is not onely a catholike churche being taken for a peculier place but in a true sense also the catholike churche when it is taken for the mother churche of all Christes flocke because it is all one to saye the churche of Christ in earthe and the churche of Rome as by S. Ambrose it is to be proued who when S. Paule had saide the churche of God to be the piller of truthe S. Ambrose wel knowing that he spake not of any one church but 1. Timoth. 3 of the whole doubted not yeat to say cuiÃs hodie rector est Damasus whose ruler at this daye Damasus is who was thaÌ„ pope you maye not marueile if I traÌ„slate not the wordes as you doe The same S. Ambrose in the funerall oration of his brother Satyrus telleth that minding to receiue theblessed sacrameÌ„t wherby he had a litle before bene saued froÌ„ drowning in the sea he asked the bishop at whose handes he thought to take it whether he agreed with other catholike bishoppes that is saieth S. Ambrose with the churche of Rome What was this elles but to aske him whether he agreed with that churche which because it conteined all catholike bishoppes in her lappe and none he toke for a catholike but him that agreed with that churche he iudged to be the catholike church Yow see therfore M. Nowel that it is no suche absurditie as yow thinke to translate these wordes in catholica ecolesia in the catholike church For what priuileage haue you I praye you more then I that yow maie translate the worde catholicae ecclesiae of the catholike churche and that I must englishe the same wordes of a catholike so 19. b. 8 churche Or why shoulde it be laufull for you so to translate them twise when alleaging those wordes of S. Cyprian Episcopo Cornelio in catholica ecclesia Yow englishe them the second time the B. C ornelius in the catholike churche which fo 20. a. 8 Cipr. li. 3. epist 13. you will not suffer me to doe so much as once Ah M. Nowel is this euen dealing Or thinke you when you haue done to colour the matter by a feined rule of youre owne making which saieth that Episcopus catholicae ecclesiae and Episcopus in ecclesia catholica are as much to say as a catholike bishop I graunte that in some places they are so M. Nowell Will you therefore make a generall rule that they must alwaies be so taken and in no place otherwise Muche like to this is the argument that you make Li. 3. Epist 11. f. 20. a. 13 to
40. a. 1. were bothe of one minde Therefore saie I they bothe proue the necessitie of one heade Neither care I whether S. Hierome speake in this dialogue of the B. of Rome by name or no. It suffiseth to proue my entent that as by youre owne confession S. Cypriah is of the minde that in euerye diocesse there must be one prieste and iudge in the stede of Christe whome all the rest must obeye so S. Hierome also is of the same The which being once graunted it foloweth verie well that seing for one litle diocesse a heade ouer so meane men as parishe priestes be is precisely necessarie muche more is a heade in earthe ouer all the bishoppes which haue euerie one of them so greate power ouer their owne flocke lest theye abuse the same of greter and more forcible necessitie And therefore you take greate paines to no purpose to proue that S. Hierome speaketh not of the B. of Rome but of euery other bishop the which thinge I woulde hier you to proue for me For whereas if he had spoken of the B. of Rome by name it had bene a reason grounded vpon the auctoritie of S. Hierome alone now being spoken of euerie bishop it confirmeth by reconing the necessitie of one heade particulerly in euerye diocesse the greate necessitie of the same one heade in the whole bodie of the churche by naturall reason also which proueth my purpose better then any priuate mānes auctoritie can doe If cancred malice and desire to be reuenged had not caried yow so far and fast awaye that it gaue you no leisor to loke backe to the title of the argument that is here handled youre selfe woulde sone haue perceiued howe litle it were necessarie to haue in this place anie speciall mention made of the B. of Rome Which if yow had once marcked then woulde you neuer haue gathered so foolilishely and vnlearnedly out of the argument of the dialogue fol. 40. a. 6 writen by Erasmus Liber est c. The booke is very worthye to be reade as the whiche doth conceine manie ▪ wholesom preceptes M. Nowell a weake reasoner concerning the life of bishoppes that there was nothing in the same dialogue not asmuche as one worde that is special to the B. of Rome onelye For all thoughe there be no one worde there speciall to the B. of Rome as it is not necessary that there be how shoulde yeat this auctoritie presse him that woulde maintaine the contrary and saye to you what M. Nowell I thinke your wittes faile you Maye there not be some one worde speciall to the B. of Rome in that dialogue because it conteineth manie wholesome preceptes concerning the life of bishoppes Is not the B of Rome a bishop Muche like or more foolishe then this are youre other notes gathered here and there out of this dialogue to proue that which you saie of euerye bishoppes auctoritie and to reproue my wresting as you terme it of this place to the auctority of one bishop ouer the whole church For who sence reason was first poured in to mannes heade harde euer of one that occupieth the place of a wise man a more folishe or brainesicke kinde of reasoning then is this S. Hierome speaketh in diuerse places of this dialogue of manye bishoppes because the question was whether bishoppes returning from their heresies shoulde be vnbishopped or no before they were reconciled Ergo He meant not in the place alleaged that there shoulder be one chiefe bisshoppe in the churche This semed to your self to be farre from the marke I doubte not when you promise to come nearer to the place by fol. 40. b. 22. fol. 41. b. me alleaged And therefore you bring in certeine sentences going next before to proue that which I denie not that S. Hierome speaketh of euery bishop in his owne diocesse And thereupon you conclude And therefore this whole matter is altogether impertinent to Nowell fol. 42. b. 9 D. Harding and M. Dormans purpose of one onelye heade ouer the whole churche Vnlesse M. Dorman woulde frame vs thereof this lewde argument S. Hierome saieth that euery bishop ought to haue auctoritie aboue all other priestes of his owne diocesse Ergo the B. of Rome ought to haue a preeminence peerelesse aboue all bishoppes of all diocesses and ouer the whole church thorough out the whole worlde No M. Nowell I will not reason so in this place because Dorman the argument whiche I handle forceth me not so to doe But if I had so reasoned or woulde so reason as yow thinke no man being awake wil yeat am I he that euē in my slepe M. Nowell were able to defende that argument againste yow staring with bothe youre eyes wide open vpon me And that youre selfe perceiued well inough and therefore like a tendre harted mā as lothe to breake my sweete slepe you stolle from it as softlye as you might For this being I praye you first graunted that euery bishop ought to haue auctoritie aboue all other priestes of his owne diocesse and the reason being as S. Hierome hathe here and you in making the argument guilefully left out for the auoiding of schismes I woulde infer for the minor or seconde proposition but the same reason for the auoiding of schismes dothe no lesse yea more enforce that one haue perelesse auctoritie ouer the bishops and priestes of the whole world Ergo there must be one suche heade and that by a consequent the B. of Rome who hathe euer so bene reputed and taken except you by youre deanely auctoritie haue power to appoint some other But I brought not S. Hieromes auctoritie VVhy S. Hierome was first alleaged M. Nowell to conclude so particulerly or to force it to the B. of Romes supremacy but only to proue the necessitie of one generall heade ouer Christes vniuersal churche the which no reasonable man can denie but that most effectually it dooth So that nowe youre greate musing at any man that shall to this sense alleage this place of S. Hierome maye appeare rather to procede off some dumpish melancolike vapours occupieng youre fonde and idle heade or lacke of other matter to thinke vpon then vpon any iust cause or good grounde and that also yow haue vntruly saide of me that I haue wrested this place In answering the place of S. Hierom to Euagrius you saie Nowell fo 4◠b. 18 first that he sheweth that praesbiter and episcopus a prieste and a bishop be all one by the first institution and by the lawe of God If it had pleased yow so to haue taken S. Hierome he Dorman might haue ment that the name of a prieste and the name of a bishop was all one in the vse of speche in the holie scriptures and in the sacrament of ordres but not in dignitie preeminence and auctoritie For a bishop is preferred before a prieste in iurisdiction allthough their names were once confounded Neither are all those thinges
by and by to be confounded as one in truthe and nature the names whereof be confounded Otherwise because the Apostles are in the gospell called disciples an Apostle and a disciple are all one which is well knowen not to be so Likewise though the termes of prieste and bishop were common yeat the thinges were neuer one in so muche that S. Austen making mention of the heresie of Aerius saieth Dicebat etiam praesbiterum ab episcopo nulla differentia secerni debere He saide Ad quod vult Deum haeres 57. also that a prieste ought to be distinguished from a bishop by no difference But what meane you here M. Nowell to talcke so much of the equalitie of bishoppes and priestes being a matter in this place nothing to oure purpose Or if it were seing it might be saide that euen as the olde canons as I declared before in that equalitie which is in priestehode vsed yeat In the 6. chapitre fol. 33. b. the worde Archipraesbiter chiefe prieste and ordeined suche a dignitie in the churche so there is nothing that letteth why in the equalitie of bishoppes and priestes while no one is more bishop or prieste then an other there maie How one bishop is equall to an other not be degrees notwithstanding of superioritie allthough not in the sacrament of ordres which is common to them all yeat in the execution of that power that is conferred thereby But perhappes you be of the opinion youre selfe that there ought to be no difference betwene a bishop and a prieste and therefore are the gladder to snatche occasion by all meanes direct or indirect to vtter youre minde therin Nowe foloweth vpon this grounde laied that bishoppes and priestes be by the first institution and the lawe of God one youre conclusion whereby you will make it appeare that you haue not without cause made mention of this equalitie of bishoppes and priestes So that all bishoppes which be the successours of the Apostles Nowell b. 24. be also praesbiteri that is to saie elders or priestes Whereof it foloweth also that there is an equalitie emongest all bishoppes by goddes lawe as the equall successours of the Apostles And that this is S. Hieromes minde in that place all learned men who haue reade the saide epistle doe well knowe This was not the minde of S. Hierome but is an idle Dorman phantasy of youre owne The learned knowe and to their iudgement I appeale that his minde was here to compare together the state of a prieste and a bishop in the sacrament of holie ordres common aswell to the one as to the other that so he might refell the better the errour of those who helde that deacons ought to be equall to priestes as appeareth by these wordes of his in the beginning of the epistle In this epistle ad Euagri◠Nam quum Apostolus c. For whereas the Apostle teacheth manifestly that priestes and bishoppes be one what eyleth the seruaūt * He meaneth deacons of widowes and tables arrogātly to extoll him selfe aboue them at whose praiers the bodie and bloud of Christe is made Doth not this example put in the consecrating of the bodie and bloude off Christe the whiche the poorest prieste that is hathe as good auctoritie to doe giuen hym in the sacrament of holie ordres as the pope him selfe declare that S. Hieromes minde was no otherwise to make priestes equall to bishoppes but in the only ordre of priestehode common to bothe Yea but yow will saie that the Apostles were equall in all respectes for if you saie not so you can not conclude absolutely as yow doe that all bishoppes their successours be so equall If yow saie so that is but your bare Lib. 1. contra Iouinianum saing only not by the auctoritie of S. Hierome confirmed but most plainly by the same impugned Who in one place saieth that emongest the twelue there was a heade chosen Peter by name and in an other place that Christ made Peter In cap. Marci 14. Note the cause of appointing one heade the maister of his house THAT VNDER ONE SHEPHERD THERE MAY BE ONE FAITH Which is directly against the equalitie that you build vpō But let it be graunted vnto you that the apostles were equal yeat shall not your cōclusion folow for all that For it is to be considered that in the Apostles there is a double respect which is to be weighed nowe of vs. Either we considre them as they were all Apostles or as they were bishoppes As they were Apostles they How the Apostles were all equall were all equall they had all like power to preache and teache thorough out the whole worlde As they were bishoppes and rulers of particuler churches they were all subiect to Petre the chiefe bishop of all As they were Apostles that is to saye generall legates to plante Christes faithe thorough out all the world to founde churchs to preach the word of God finally to gouerne vniuersally in all places where their should come they trāsmitted this right none of thē to their successours but only Peter who was the generall shepherd of all Which is the cause that some of the fathers namely S. Austē saie that the power giuen to Peter was giuē to him In psalm 208. in the persone of the church because it was not giuē to him alone but to all his successours to cōtinue for euer As the Apostles were bishops of particuler places their auctoritie ended not with them but wēt further to the whole church to cōtinue for euer Now to applye this to our purpose howe doe the bishoppes that now are succede the Apostles They succede them as bishoppes not as Apostles For if they succeded them so who seeth not that as the Apostles made lawes absolued excommunicated and ruled thorough out all How bisshoppes be the successours of the Apostles the worlde where so euer they came so might the bishoppes that nowe succede thē doe the like The which thing seing we finde by no recordes sith the apostles time that euer it was practised in the church and if it should it were the nexte waie to disquiet al the worlde and to fill the churche full of schismes and heresies reason it selfe dothe conuince that the ordre taken emongest the Apostles was but by speciall priuileage not appointed to continue for euer or to derogate anie thing from the generall ordre begonne in Peter and appointed to be perpetuall as long as the church shoulde endure To conclude therfore I graunte to you M. Nowell that the Apostles were equall as they were all the generall legates of Christe but not as they had their speciall bishoprikes and charges limited vnto them In which latter sense because the bishoppes that are nowe succede the Apostles in which pointe they were not equall it foloweth against you that all bishoppes be not equall Iff yow will saye that the Apostles were also equall euen in that that
that Christ gaue power of losing and binding to al indifferently and that therfore Peter had no more premineÌ„ce then the rest is a naughty and vntrue reason as appeareth by these wordes of S. Hierome tamen etcae yeat one is chosen etc. Thirdly I gather that seing the apostles were bishoppes this Maxime of youres is cleane ouerthrowen that all bishoppes be equall and that no one hathe anie other ouer him seing the Apostles being bishoppes had Peter to be their heade Fourthly I note that this confession was wroong as it were by violence from S. Hierome by the force of his aduersarie his reason Which being that priestes might marie seing Peter the heade of the Apostles was maried it had bene for S. Hierome his vantage to haue denyed that he was heade of them to haue sayde as yow doe that they were all equall and no one aboue the other And so woulde he we maie be suer being so vehement and learned an aduersary as he was if it had not bene so manifest a truthe that it coulde be no more denied then that Peter was maried His qualifieng of the place here that the churche was in an other place builded vpon all maie giue vs to vnderstande what he woulde quickly haue done if Christe had not for all that specially made Peter the heade By this appeareth the corrupt iudgement of Erasmus who in his notes vpon the epistle Ad Marcellam where S. Hierome hath againe that the churche was builded Tom. 2. ad Marcellam adueâ—sus Montanum vpon Peter giueth this iudgement Hoc detorquet in commendationem Petri. This he wresteth to the commendation of Peter Last of all it is to be noted that in S. Hieromes time it was acknowledged euen by heretikes that Christe appointed this ordre of one heade as appeareth by this that Iouinian grounded him selfe thereupon in reasoning against S. Hierome for the maintenaunce of his heresie Vpon the which last note some other maie happely note that yow and youre companions are more shamelesse heretikes then were Iouinian and his To this place of S. Hierome I will adde one other to shewe that yow abuse his auctoritie to muche in labouring to founde vpon him this vntrue proposition of youres that not by goddes lawe but by mannes this ordre of one heade in Christes Churche shoulde be established The wordes off S. Hierome alluding to the house mentioned in the ghospell where Christe eate his passeouer are these Dominus domus Petrus apostolus est cui dominus domum suam In cap. 14. Marci credidit VTSVBVNO PASTORE SIT VNA FIDES The maister of the house is Peter the Apostle to whome One head shepherde that the faithe maye be one oure Lorde committed his house that vnder one shepheard the faithe maye be one Doe yow not see M. Nowell the necessitie of one heade that vnder one shepherd the faithe maye be one Heare yow not that it is not mannes deuise that it be so but Christes owne ordinaunce Haue you not with all S. Hierome expounding as it were the wordes of S. Cyprian tamen vt vnitatem manifestaret vnitatis eiusdem originem Lib. de vnitat ecclesiae ab vno incipientem sua auctoritate disposuit yeat to make vnitie manifest he Christe disposed by his auctoritie the beginning of this vnitie to procede from one by these wordes of his That vnder one shepherde there maye be one faithe By this it appeareth that S. Hierome is not of that minde that yow woulde haue him to be that is that this ordre of hauing one heade in the churche shoulde be off mannes ordinaunce not of Christes institution But here yow will aske me how I can then reconcile him and make him agree with him selfe who in this place hath that one Quòd vnus postea electus est S. Hierom expounded by him selfe was afterwarde chosen to rule the rest If after saye yow then not vpon goddes lawe Yes I reconcile him after this sorte M. Nowell If yow vnderstande this place to be of the Apostles then he expoundeth him selfe in the place that you harde before where allthough he confesse that in one place Christe builded the churche equally vpon all his Apostles which was done streight after his resurrection Ioan. 20. yeat in an other he graunteth that the good maister for so he calleth Christe there builded it vpon Peter a little before his ascension into heauen whome he appointed Ioan. vlt. to be the heade of the rest So that the worde here Postea afterwardes hath relation to that ordinarie prerogatiue of S. Peter giuen to him at Christes assension at whiche time he perfourming the promise made before to Peter in the future tense to builde his churche vpon him Matth. 16. appointed him as Chrisostome saieth vpon that place to haue orbis terrarum curaÌ„ the charge of the whole worlde Homil. vlt. in Ioan. vlt. If yow vnderstande not these wordes one chosen afterwarde to rule the rest of the Apostles but of the gouernement in particuler churches as because of the example brought by S. Hierome of the churche of Alexandria you thinke they shoulde then Postea afterwarde must haue this sense that whereas vnder one generall heade of Christes churche the particuler churches were at the beginning gouerned by manye heades and common consent whiche was as Epiphanius saieth because the apostles could not furthwith take ordre for all thinges his wordes are non enim omnia statim potuerunt Apostoli constituere for the apostles could not furthewith take ordre for all things afterwardes the state of the church being better Lib. 3. haeâ—es 75. setled and being come to vse the words of Epiphanius ad propriaÌ„ mensuraÌ„ to her own measure that ordre appearing to be such as was not coÌ„uenieÌ„t for the gouernemeÌ„t of the churche was alltered and one chosen to rule alone for the auoiding of schismes in euery particuler church not as though S. HieroÌ„ should meane that the vniuersall churche lacked at anie time one heade or had bene gouerned by diuerse the coÌ„trarie wherof he affirmed before but that afterward particuler churchs began to see the necessitie of one head ouer euerie churche according to the patern wherein Christ appointed Peter to be the chiefe head of all As S. Hierom him selfe in an other place doth well declare where he saieth An tequà m diaboli instinctu studia in religione fierent c. Before by the instigation of the diuell factions were made in religion and In cap. 1. epi. ad Tit. 1. Cor. 1. one saide I am of Paule I am of Apollo I of Cephas the churches were gouerned by the coÌ„mon councell of priestes But after that euery one thought those that he baptized to be his and not Christes it was thorough out all the worlde decreed that one being chosen out of the priestes shoulde be set ouer the rest to whome all the care of the churche should belong and the occasioÌ„ of
onely but plaine contrary expositions brought farewell and will rather here God speaking then turne oure selues to these beggarly elementes and put oure saluation in thē VVe must not be cunning in the lawe and the scriptures but be taught of God The labour is vaine whiche is bestowed vpon the scriptures For the scripture is a creature and a certeine weake element Thus saieth Hosius Your Apologie goeth farder and vpon these wordes triumpheth ouer Hosius comparing him to Montanus and Marcion the heretikes Is this but to burden him withe affinitie M. Nowell Fy for shame how long wil yow halte downe right Maye yow not nowe be ashamed if shame there remaine anie in yow to saye that the author of the Apologie saing this of Hosius beareth witnesse to the truthe I haue hearde of certeine lewde men in oure countrie who agreing emongest them selues to name eache thing by a contrarie name haue framed a newe Englishe speache wherein they haue bene able so to vtter their mindes as beside their owne companions no other shoulde vnderstande them Except you be of this brotherhode I vnderstande not youre Englishe to make anie other sense of it then a plaine lye Whereas I call Hosius one of the greatest states of Christendome for learning and vertue yow without all occasion make an impertinent discourse of Cardinalles of their hattes of their moiles and that forsothe because you thinke it yow saye neither vnpleasant nor vnproffitable Iff fol. 92. 25. a. yow like a merie man studie to write pleasant thinges and if occasion be not offred will take it youre selfe rather then that suche pleasant matter shoulde perishe and be lost I neither couet to comende and make salable to the worlde my doinges by suche toyes and of all other thinke it moste vnmete for men of oure profession especially one of your yeares and calling to trouble the reader with suche triffles If this wandring discourse of youres had had anie proffit ioyned with the pleasantnes yeat is not euerie proffitable thing to be handled in euery place Vnlesse yow thinke M. Nowell to vse youre owne wordes that yow maie mingle in lente vnguentum thinges moste impertinent together And therefore I passe ouer this as wide from the matter the whole effect thereof being nothing elles but that the pope called the persons and vicaries of the parishes in Rome to be Cardinalles a greate matter forsothe and worthy to be discoursed of at large and therfore M. Nowell or elles because he knewe not how to make his boke growe to the biggnesse that it is of hathe about that onely matter bestowed all most three whole leaues For his learning yow make Hosius no bodie as he that fo 92. b. 5. hauing first borowed the matter of his bokes oute of other was not hable neither without helpe to put it in good ordre together Whiche you iudge probably you thinke by the stile and poeticall phrases vnmeete for Hosius age and vocation Here first the Apologie and yow agree not M. Nowell The Apologie and M. Nowell agree not about Hosius learning For the Apologie sayeth of him certè homo disertus non indoctus acerrimus ac fortissimus propugnator eius causae truly an eloquent man not vnlearned and an earnest and moste strong defendour of that cause If he borowed and stolle all the learning and reasons that are in his bookes how appeareth it that he is not vnlearned If he hired clerckes and stilewrightes as this cunning lyewrighte saieth he did to pen it where is his eloquence The Apologie iudged the stile poeticall phrases or verses notwithstanding that his bokes shoulde be of his owne penning otherwise there was no cause to call him eloquent And surelie who so euer he be that penned the Apologie if the matter came to be tried by the countrie who were best able of yow two to iudge in these matters yow were like to haue the worse His vertue you woulde drowne with polonishe pottes fo 93. 14. 2 and bring for youre witnes as honest a man as youre selfe Iacobus Andreae his knowen aduersarie Whereas the contrarie is so well knowen in Polonia that the greatest faulte that some finde with him is that he will neither for anie mannes pleasure quaffe to other neither answere anie other quaffing to him Whiche league of Christian sobrietie Martinus Cromerus and he making together being then bothe canons of the same churche they haue so trulie kepte euer sence that they haue at the length obteined full quietnes from being troubled anie more in any companie withe suche sinfull ciuilitie And a sobrer man is there not in his diete emongest you all loke who is the sobrest then Cardinall Hosius is as a good and a learned man a countrie man of our owne liuing nearer to him thē Iacobus Andreae euen with him and at his owne table and obseruing diligently his trade of life twelue monethes together hathe being earnestly required vppon his certeine knowledge reported to me But let this passe as one of the ordinarie sclaunders of heretikes It is not the first time that Iacobus Andreae hathe deceiued you M. Nowell It was he that made the compilers of youre Apologie to tell that fowle lye of Hosius that afterwarde in the seconde edition they corrected You see therefore what cause there is to truste him in his reportes of Hosius And by the waye note that to speake trulye of a forrein◠false Polonishe papist is with M. Dorman accounted sedition Nowell b. 3. cet And I desire the reader once againe to note that M. Nowell Dorman will neuer make an ende of belieng me I call you not seditiouse for anye thing that you speake be it true or false A lye 78. against Hosius The wordes that I call seditiouse be cloked with the name of Christe of whome you make no mention speaking of Hosius The wordes that I call seditiouse and warne men to beware of are these Christe is heade of the churche therefore there nedeth no other As appeareth by the sentence that foloweth nexte VVhat other thing did their forefathers Chore Dathan and Abiron c. What meane you to saye here that yowe haue spoken trulye of Hosius in your Apologie If you spake trulie why did the same Apologie reuoke it in the second edition That the reason taken from the example of Chore fol. 94. a. Dathan and Abiron against the gouernement of Moises and Aaron is one with that whiche the protestants make againste the gouernement off one heade The 26. Chapitre TO THIS reason you begin firste to answere in the fol. 95. b. 5 seconde side of the 95. leafe the 4. lyne All that goeth before is impertinent to the reason and decked with the accustomed flowers of youre railing Rhetorike The obiection of Moyses and Aaron wherby you would proue that there were two high priestes at once c. is answered by me if it had pleased you to haue taken the paynes to
heade neither because he was present also with them and no lesse their heade then oures Thirdlye to shewe that the onelye conference of scriptures is not sufficient to ende all controuersies rising vpon the doubtefull meaninge off the lettre seing that if it so had allmightie God woulde of all likelihode haue bidden the Iues doe so and not trouble themselues and the high prieste for the matter Thus yowe see good readers howe I alleage thrise thys one place off scripture whiche argueth M. Nowell saieth miserable distresse But I truste suche as be off sounder iudgement haue learned to giue that reuerence to holie scripture that what so euer they see confirmed by one onelye sentence taken out of the same that they will thinke as sufficiently proued as iff there had bene many brought therfore If a man should aske of M. Nowell what distresse he was in when to proue that there must be manie kinges to gouerne the worlde he alleageth so often alone without anie other in his whole boke that sentence of Ecclesiasticus some times twise in one leafe as Cap. 17. fol. 32. and. 62. which neither proueth his entent and is taken besides out of that boke whiche he and his companioÌ„s In the articles agreed vpoÌ„ in the CoÌ„uocation anno 15â—2 haue noted to be insufficient to establishe anie doctrine by I marueile what answere he woulde make What shoulde I here mention the councell of Africa so many times brought in What shoulde I tell you of the same textes and gloses so often rehersed to one purpose Youre selues good readers in reading this boke of his shall beare me witnes that I lye not You haue here repeated againe that the high prieste must iudge according to the lawe whiche no man denieth for so saieth the texte that he shall that S. Paule a 29. b. 28. threatened Gods vengeaunce to the high prieste that S. Peter and S. Iohn asked boldely him and his whether it were right in the sight of god to heare them rather then God to all the which you haue my answere before in answering the. 59. b. and the. 68. leaues a. You haue beside serued in the seconde time the places of S. Austen and Chrisostome to fo 99. a. b proue that conference of the textes of scripture one withe the other is a good waye to atteine to the vnderstanding of doubtefull places Thus much was saide before in the. 72. leafe b. to the which in the same place I answered as I nowe doe that it is a verie good waie in dede but not suche as is able allwaies to assure vs of the right sense Nowe iudge I beseche you good readers who vseth oftenest to repeate the same thing M. Nowell or I. Where as you saye M. Nowell And no doubte but the Iuish Nowell b 26. priest appointed to resolue other men of their doubtes did him selfe vse the saide conference of scripture c. To that I answere that this maketh nothing for youre Dorman purpose if he so did For allthough the high prieste whose lippes were promised to keepe knowledge were for the office Malach. â— sake which he susteined so directed in the conference of scripture that he neuer failed in his iudgementes yeat hereof foloweth it not that euery priuate man by suche conference shoulde be hable to doe the like The generall councelles at this daie the popes at all times haue vsed you maie be sure this waye also of interpreting doubtes arising vpon the scripture We mislike it not therefore in them to whome it apperteineth to explicate suche doubtes but in suche onelie as being priuate men vse this for a cloke to couer their heresies in them we mislike it thus far as either they content not themselues with suche sense as the whole churche hath allreadie vpon the conference of suche doubtefull places agreed vpon either elles taking that office from publike auctoritie will presume them selues to giue suche sentence proceding this waye as maye best seme to make for their singuler opinions To this reason of mine that if laing and conferring together of one texte with an other were the surest and readiest waye to come to the true vnderstanding of all doubtes God woulde of all likelihode haue commaunded it and not haue sent his people to the high priest nowe at the length M. Nowell in the ende of two leaues and a halfe in the which he hathe done no other thing but first vttred himselfe how muche this place of Deutero grieueth him then vainely repeated that the prieste is bound to iudge according to Goddes lawe that when he did not S. Paule cursed him S. Peter and S. Iohn disobeied him that conference of the scripture is good and necessary now I saye after that he hathe filled vp two leaues and a halfe with this matter denied by no man and with the which he filled as manye before he maketh a proffer to answere in this wise But saieth M. Dorman God coÌ„maunded not any suche confereÌ„ce Nowell fo 100. a. 29. b. 1. of scriptures but only to resorte to the high prieste yeat I trust M. Dorman is not ignorant what it meaneth that God and oure Sauiour Christ doe so earnestly exhorte all meÌ„ to the diligeÌ„t reading and studie of the scriptures and doe condemne the ignorance or waÌ„t of knowledge therof And where he saieth God hath not coÌ„maunded suche conference of scriptures which yeat in effecte he hath commaunded it is happy that he can not shewe where God hath forbidden it which if he coulde he woulde not haue failed to haue done You tell men what I saide whiche they knewe before Dorman but your answere to my saing whiche here they loked to haue had you giue them not I saye that if conference of one place of the scripture withe an other had bene the surest waye to resolue all doubtes God woulde rather haue commaunded that then going to the prieste you answere that God and Christe exhorte vs to the diligent studie of scripture that * The coÌ„ference here meÌ„t is suche as must serue for the finall resolution of all doubtes suche conference he hathe commaunded in effect without shewing when where or by what wordes notwithstanding that herein consisteth the answere to my obiection that it is happy that I can not shewe where it is forbidden whereas euen in the very place that I bring here when I shewe that almighty God commaunded the ordinarie waye of resoluing doubtes to be the sentence of the highe prieste I shewe withall that he forbadde also conference of scripture in such wise as we here take conference that is to be the finall and laste resolution of determining doubtefull controuersies arising vppon the lettre Excepte any man you thincke maye be so desperate hardye as when God hathe appointed one waye to choose anye other as not forbidden That whiche foloweth But seing c. is one of youre extraordinarye walckes and perteineth not to my obiection but yeat
serueth well for youre purpose to giue vs the slippe and to wynde youre selfe from the matter To my demaunde what heretike was euer vanquished by the scriptures you saye I answere the Arrians Anabaptistes and all heretikes without Nowell fol. 101. a. 5 exception were vanquished and ouerthrowen by the scriptures and that if they were not vanquished by the scriptures they were not vanquished at all By youre answere it shoulde seme M. Nowell that either Dorman you vnderstande not my demaunde or you will not vnderstande it For when I speake of vanquishing of heretikes I meane of ouerthrowing and so coÌ„futing their heresies as that they maye with the worlde be brought vttrely oute of conceite and the memorye of them cleane abolisshed and extinguished as we see Arius heresie once more vniuersall then youres God be praised to be I meane not you maye be sure that the heretikes them selues shoulde confesse them selues to be ouercomen Againe when I aske how they were vanquished by the scriptures I vnderstande by the scriptures alone by the scriptures withoute a iudge who in this doubtefull contention where the Arrian bringeth scripture as well as the catholike as apparent as the catholike more plentifully then the catholike where no other place of scripture can by the catholike be brought to make the matter plaine by waye of conference but the aduersarie will be readie to alleage as euident for him maye giue sentence whether parte hathe better right who alleageth and conferreth the scriptures moste sincerely Thus did the councell of Nice ouerthrowe the heresie of Arrius although not so that he him selfe coulde be brought to acknowledge so muche yeat in suche wise that in processe of time the worlde giuing credite to so learned and generall a councell fell from his heresie and nowe there is not one fauourer thereof in the whole worlde that dare shewe his face Thus shoulde youre heresies and all other be ouerthrowen if we woulde either in suche thinges as the churche hath already determined folowe that sense of the scriptures that it hathe deliuered to vs either elles in thinges ambiguouse and not defined aske and folowe the iudgement therof For that you here cauil that the pope nor popish Nowell b. â— church can be coÌ„uenient and coÌ„petent iudges in controuersies no we risen for that they are bothe parties and parties accused therein no more then the Iuishe high prieste with his churche of Scribes and Phariseis were conuenient and competent iudges in the controuersies betwene them and Christes Apostles The absurditie of this comparison bothe I haue there where Dorman Cap. 12. fol. 164. before in like maner you made it sufficiently declared and the Arrians also might haue pleaded this plea againste the councell of Nice In the whiche the fathers assembled were as muche affected against Arrius heresie as the late councell of Trent or anye that can be holden is againste youres Yeat do not the histories mention that euer they were so impudent Touching the conference of Scriptures together I did so late Nowell b. 15. before at large intreate thereof that I nede not nowe to repeate the same againe As largely M. Nowell as you intreated thereof you saide Dorman neuer a worde howe this controuersie betwene the Arrians and the catholikes bothe alleaging scripture for their M. Nowell answereth not the force of my reason defence might be by onely scripture determined To pretende therfore that it is no nede to repeate that which you neuer touched it is a pretye figure to excuse silence in that wherein you are able to saye nothing Iff you feared you shoulde haue dwelled to longe in that matter you might haue eased that by cutting of manye impertinent discourses that bothe go before and folowe after in this booke off youres namely the nexte sentence that foloweth wherein you labour to proue youre selues to be no Arrians withe the whiche heresye neither I nor anye other doe charge yowe To procede whereas I aske howe it happeneth that the Caluinistes and the Lutherans agree not by conferring one place of scripture with an other to that you saye Nowell fol. 102. a. 23. This is M. Dormans vsage when he can saye nothing off the present case to entremingle foraigne matters thereby to auerte the readers minde from his principall cause remaining vnproued still The principall cause is that there muste be one visible Dorman heade in Christes church to appease controuersies and determine doubtes the heretike saieth it nedeth not the scripture by diligent conference beinge able to satisfie all men therein To this I replied how happeneth it then that the Caluinistes and Lutheranes agree not c Nowe lett all men iudge how truly yowe reprehende me for entremingling foraigne matters But let vs here youre answer to the question But how so euer Caluin and Luther agree in the exposition of Nowell these fewe wordes Hoc est corpus meum This is my bodie they agree bothe in this that the papistes expounde them falsely Who euer hearde a more absurde or folishe answere Or Dorman what answere rather is this to my question to tell vs that the Lutheranes and Caluinistes agree together against vs So did as the scriptures beare witnesse the phariseis and Sad duces so did Herode and Pilate agree against the pretiouse Lucae 23. bodie of Christ at the Crosse as yow doe against it at the altar S. Austen saieth of heretikes Dissentiunt inter se contra Lib. siue Homil. de ouibus vnitatem omnes consentiunt Emongest them selues they are at variaunce against vnitie they all agree My selfe also in the nexte sentence folowing confesse as muche that allthough heretikes in some point dissent yeat they all ioyne and agree in one cancred hatred against the churche What letteth by this meanes why yow shoulde not easelie reconcile together all that huge rable of heretikes mentioned in the table of late set furthe by M. Stapleton who hauing one common father with yowe allthough in manie pointes dissenting agree yeat all with yow against vs But what is this I saie to the purpose Answere if you be hable if scripture can alone ende all controuersies howe happeneth it that the Lutheranes and Caluinistes ende not theire strife thereby whiche continueth notwithstanding their agreing against vs It foloweth For to vse the places by M. Dorman noted out of Hosius he Nowell A. 26. nor all papistes with him shall neuer be hable to showe cause why these wordes Ego sum viâ—is vera I am the true vine do not proue aswell a transsubstantiation as Hoc est corpus meum This is my bodie What this For shoulde perteine to the answering off Dorman my question I see not this I see well it confirmeth strongly my saing that by scripture alone all controuersies can not be iudged For as Caluin bringeth for his opinion this place so I trust yow are not ignorant that Luther had also his places to alleage
vnlearned you vse termes like youre selfe against this chaire of S. Petre minding as I take it to persuade that I shoulde drawe S. Hieromes wordes to suche a meaning as that he shoulde meane that Christes churche were builded vpon a materiall chaire You maye be ashamed M. Nowel where you lacke iust matter to blotte paper and waste incke with suche cauilling triffles as euerie man that hath common sense wil as sone as they haue passed once youre mouthe be hable to discouer and reproue Dothe not S. Hierome in this place make twise expresse mention of Petres chaire Why triumphe you not ouer him as you crowe against me with youre foolishe and vnsauory Rhetorike and saie that he was well occupied to write from Siria to Rome for councell from a rotten chaire that he was a wise man to ioyne him selfe in communion theretoe Who seeth not that yow woulde haue taken the matter as whotly with S. Hierome as you doe with me hauing as good cause alltogether sauing that yow feared the burning of youre lippes I saie therefore M. Nowell that VVhat S. Hierome ment by Peters chayre S. Hierome to answere you in this pointe if you were so verie a dolt that you vnderstode it not before by building the churche vpon Petres chaire meaneth euen as he did in those two places before where you can not denie but that he maketh expresse mention of that chaire Sainte Hierome meaneth there no materiall chaire and therefore no rotten chaire as you like a rotten membre and deuided from the churche blasphemously saie He meaneth as Matt◠23 Christe doeth in the ghospell speaking of Moises chaire as the fathers Cipriā Epiphanius Austen Ambrose Optatus and the rest doe as often as they vse this worde that is to saie by the chayre the power and bishoplike auctoritie which Petre hauing giuē to him cōmitted to his successours For euē as a riuer though it runne manie thousandes of miles leeseth not yeat but reteineth neuerthelesse the name of the founteine and heade spring from whence it came so fareth it in the succession of bishoppes that how many so euer there be that succede yeat they are all saide to possesse the chaire of him that ruled firste yea allthough euerie of them had made for him selfe a newe chaire For the matter consisteth not as I saide before in materiall chaires no more then doth the opening or shutting of heauen gates depende vpon materiall keyes And as well might you like a Lucianist or a Porphirian haue scoffed at Christe for saing that the scribes and Phariseis sate vpon Moises chaire which if they had had emōgest them if euer Moises sate in anie should at that time haue bene as rotten as is S. Petres nowe there being betwene Moises and S. Petre not manie fewer yeares then are nowe betwene S. Petre and oure time or for making keyes for heauen as yow doe against me But to let this passe and to exaggerate no furder that for the which at the handes of suche as be of the learneder and wiser sorte you are like to susteine punishment enough by incurring the note of this infamie to be no learned reasoner but a railing wrangler I will nowe as compendiously as maie be iustifie the inserting of this Parenthesis Peters chaire First these wordes vpon this rocke I knowe the churche to be builded ought to be referred rather as youre selfe before confessed and in this case if in anie you ought to be beleued for you haue bene a scholemaister and practised better in the gramer rules then in the scriptures and fathers writinges to the wordes that go nearest before but the wordes Peters chaire are placed nearest before Therefore by youre owne confession the building of the churche ought to be referred thither Againe S. Hierome in this place it is to be presumed alluded in these wordes I knowe the churche to be buylded on that rocke to the wordes of the ghospell Tues petrus super hanc petram aedificabo ecclesiam meam Thow Matt. 16. arte Petre and vpon this rocke wil I builde my church But in that place Christe appointed an other fundation of the church beside him selfe to wit Peter It foloweth therefore that S. Hierome in this place ment not of Christ but of Peters chaire that is Peters auctoritie or Peter him selfe Thirdly it is more then probable that sainte Hierome mēt not in this place of building the churche vpon Christe only but vpon Petre also nexte after Christe because to him that with iudgement wil reade the epistle considre duly the circunstances especially the beginning it shal appeare that his whole talcke is so framed that whereas of purpose and directly he maketh mention of consulting Peters chaire off ioyning him selfe to Peters chaire and in that whole discourse of his setteth furthe the praises of the churche off Rome he speaketh of Christe but incidently and as it were by the waie of a parenthesis and that toe to auaunce the dignitye of the See of Rome as before the which he woulde preferre he saide none but Christe The whiche being so what sounde iudgement will not rather refer these wordes aboute whiche the controuersie is to that whiche is principally and directly handled rather then to that which is mentioned but incidently and indirectly Last of all it is to be iudged that S. Hierome agreeth here with his owne writinges in other places Nowe is this euident that euen the thirde epistle before thys he saieth in plaine wordes that the churche was builded vppon Petre. His wordes are Apostolus Petrus super quem Dominus fundauit ecclesiam Tom. 2. epist ad Marcellā Petre the Apostle vpon whom our lorde founded his churche Thus you see good Readers I trust howe falselye and withoute all cause M. Nowell hathe quarelled with me for this parenthesis added only to make more plaine the wordes of Saint Hierome It foloweth that I showe to you howe he prosecuteth his purposed malice by the auctorities of Erasmus and S. Augustine in the 108. 109. and 110. leaues Erasmus saieth M. Nowell cleane contrarye to all papistes Nowell fol. 108. a. 18. saieth in his notes vpon these wordes Super illam petram c. Non super Romam vt arbitror c. That is to saie Vpon that rocke not vpon Rome I trowe c. From Erasmus thus farre we dissent not that we knowe Dorman as well as he that the church was not built vpō Rome For if Rome were sacked as God forbid to morowe nexte the church should continue neuerthelesse although the bishop went from thence and shoulde sit at the meanest towne in all Italye or elles where As for that that he woulde haue the churche to be builded by S. Hieromes meaning vppon Peters faithe that first he affirmeth not confidently but saieth he troweth so next it maye be saide that in this place Erasmus telleth his owne opinion in the other place off this epistle vpon these wordes Extra hanc domum without this
house he confesseth the minde of S. Hierome whiche he saieth was vtterly that all churches ought to be vndre the Romaine See or no strangers from it If Erasmus in his interpretation before saing that the churche was not as he thought builded vpon Rome but vpon the faith of Petre agree with S. Hierome in this pointe that all churches be subiect to the Romaine See howe happeneth it that you and youre fellowes to withdrawe all men from this subiection to that See make that principle that the churche was builded not vpon Rome but vpon Petres his faithe youre chiefe grounde seing that in Erasmus iudgement bothe might stande well inoughe together Iff on the contrarye parte this interpretation made by Erasmus can not agree with the minde of Saint Hierome Why shoulde we rather credite Erasmus not sure off his owne opinion then S. Hierome confidently affirming the contrarye Yea and furder the same Erasmus in the beginning of his argument Nowell fol. 108. b. 1. vpon his treatye against the Luciferians whiche is nexte to his two epistles to Damasus hathe these wordes Nulla haeresis grauius afflixit c. No heresie hathe more grieuously afflicted the churches of all the worlde then the Arrians in so muche that it hathe wrapped in the bishoppes of Rome and the emperours them selues It pleaseth M. Dorman sometime to alleage Erasmus against vs whose auctoritye if it be good downe goeth the pope and all popery For if the bishoppes of Rome haue bene infected with heresie then is not there that vniuersall rocke As good men as Erasmus and better to haue susteined Dorman the contrary that there was neuer bishoppe of Rome heretike But if there had it foloweth not thereof that there is not that vniuersall rocke Let that be the answere till I come to youre question What if the Pope be an heretike Nowe if M. Dorman did not see these notes of Erasmus vpon Nowell b. 16. the place by him alleaged out of S. Hierome I praise his diligence he maye of Dorman be called Dormitantius as S. Hierome whome he falsely alleageth called Vigilantius and more iustlye bothe by nature and sounde of name may M. Dorman be so called then euer was Vigilantius by S. Hierome c. I sawe them and vnderstode them it appeareth better Dorman then you Reade S. Hierome contra Vigilantium ad Exuperium and then see who is likely by S. Hieromes minde to be called Dormitantius you who with that drowsy sleeping heretike raile against the tapers and lightes in the churche the worshipping of sainctes the reuerent keping of their blessed relikes or I who with saint Hierome mainteine the contrary But I thinke euen for that cause a little thinge woulde make yow to call S. Hierome Dormitantius to for it appeareth that it pleased yow neuer a deale that he shoulde so roughly handle youre deare frinde and therefore yow prefer youre allusion to my name before that of his to the name of Vigilantius But I woulde counsell yow M. No-well either to gette yow some new trym name such as is Theodore Basile or some suche like or elles to leaue scoffing at other till this that yow haue conteining nothing well in it maie be mended Because yowe perceiued that Erasmus either made little for youre purpose or that his auctoritie woulde not be muche set by yow saie But if Erasmus iudgement be nothing worthe c. I will yeat in Christes quarell that he is the rocke and not Petres rotten Nowell B. 26. chaire bring furthe one witnes not onelie greater then Erasmus but also equall with S. Hierome and aboue all papistes in credite and auctoritie S. Austen in his 13. sermon vpon the ghospell off Mathew Yow fight with your owne shadowe M. Nowell when Dorman Fol. 109. ◠1. yow imagine to encountre with anie matche that shoulde offre Christe wrong No man denieth to Christe that excellencie to be the rocke of his churche yow maie therfore put vp youre dagger the fraie was donne before it begonne But yeat hereof it foloweth not that therefore Petres chaire that is to saie Peter is not also a fundation in Christe the first and greatest fundation as a little before I showed To the auctoritie of S. Austen I answere that euen as youre other witnesse that yowe brought before Erasmus durst in this case affirme nothing boldely but only shewed his minde doubtefully so is S. Austen in this question as it Lib. 1. Retractat cap. 21. appeareth in his worckes not fully resolued For in his first booke of Retractations where yow saie most impudently that he repeateth and mainteineth moste earnestlie this interpretation An impudent lye made vpō 12. S. Austen B. 18. that Christe and not Petre is the rocke he proposing bothe the interpretations that Peter is the rocke as he confessed that the same sense he had bothe him selfe giuen in writing against Donatus and was song in his time by the mouthe of manye in the verses of S. Ambrose where speaking of the cocke he saieth Hoc ipsa petra ecclesiae canente culpam diluit at the singing of this cocke the rocke of the churche him selfe purged his faulte he proposing I saie this sense and also that other that Christ is that rocke concludeth in this wise Harum autem duarum sententiarum quae sit probabilior eligat lector Of these two opinions let the reader chose that whiche he thinketh moste probable Is this M. Nowell to defende moste earnestly that Christe and not Petre is the rocke to sett men at libertie to beleue in this pointe as they list Is this the candor the sincere and vpright dealing that yowe speake so muche of But if yowe will yeat by no meanes graunte that S. Austen doubted of this pointe if he were resolued on anie parte I will proue by alleaging diuerse places against this one of youres that he thought as we doe and not with yow First in a sermon that he made of Petres chaire he hathe these wordes Petrū itaque fundamentū ecclesiae dominus nominauit August Serm. de cathedra S. Petri ideo digné fundamentū hoc ecclesia colit supra quod ecclesiastici aedificij altitudo cōsurgit That is to saie Our Lord therfore named Petre the fundation of the church and for that cause dothe the churche worthily worship this fundation vpon the whiche the heigth of the ecclesiasticall building riseth Againe in an other place speaking of the firste miracle Sermon de Sanct. 26. that S. Petre did in restoring to a lame man the vse of his feete he writeth thus Audistis frequenter ipsum Petrum a Act. 3. domino petram nuncupatum sicut ait Tu es Petrus super Matth. 16. hanc petram oedificabo ecclesiam meam Si ergo Petrus petra est supra quam aedificatur ecclesia recté prius pedes sanat vt sicut in ecclesia fidei fundamentum continet ita in homine membrorum
fundamenta confirmet That is to saie Yow haue hearde often times that Petre him selfe is called by oure Lorde a rocke as where he saieth Thow arte Peter and vpō this rocke will I builde my churche If therefore Petre be the rocke vpon the whiche the churche is builded he did well firste to heale the feete that as in the churche he conteineth the fundation of faithe so he shoulde in this man strengthen the fundations of his membres I might here alleage diuerse other places of S. Austen to this sense * As in Psalm 30. alijs multis locis but these two here vouched and that other whiche he mentioneth him selfe in his Retractations to be in his writinges against Donatus maie be sufficient to teache that if he thought not fullie of this pointe as we doe as by these three places for one brought by yow it should seme he did he was yeat indifferent and not against vs. But what if S. Austen had bene moste earnestlie against vs Yeat could you not so presse vs with his auctoritie M. Nowell by being greater then Erasmus equall with S. Hierome aboue all papistes in credite and auctoritie that he should be aboue Clement Tertullian Ciprian Basile Hilarius Ambrose Hierome Cirill Leo who all with one voice agree in this interpretation that the church was founded vpon Petre. a Epist 1. ad Iacob fratr domini Clement saieth of him that by the merite of true faithe he was determined to be the fundation of the churche b Lib. de praescrip haeret Tertullian afketh whether any thing coulde be hidden from Petre called the rocke of the churche to be builded Sainte Cyprian libro 1. epist 12. libro 4. epist 9. Lib. de habit virgin Lib. de bono pat epist ad Iubaian and epist ad Quintum in all these places affirmeth that the churche was builded vpon Petre. d Lib. 2. aduers Eunoni S. Basile because that Petre excelled in faithe to ke therfore he saieth the building of the church vpon him e In cap. Math. 16. Hilarie the B. of Poictiers in Fraunce calleth Petre Felix ecclesiae fundamentum the happy fundation of the church f Sermon 47. S. Ambrose hath that Petre was called of Christe ecclesiarum petra the rocke of churches S. Hierome emongest manie other places expounding the verie wordes of Christe Thow art Petre c. Math. 16. giueth this sense Aedificabo ecclesiam meam super te I will builde my church vpon the. g Lib. 2. in Ioannem cap. 12. Serm. 3. in Anniuersario assumptionis suae ad ponificatum Ciril saieth that Christe in the giuing to Petre his newe name signified therby that in him as in a rocke and moste strong stone he woulde builde his churche Leo to make an ende bringeth in Christe speaking of Petre after this sorte Ego tibi dico hoc est sicut pater meus tibi manifestauit diuinitatem meam ita ego tibi notam facio excellentiam tuam Quia tu es Petrus id est quum ego sim inuiolabilis petra ego lapis angularis qui facio vtraque vnum tamen tu quoque petra es quia mea virtute solidaris vt quae mihi potestate sunt propria tibi sint mecum participatione communia super hanc petram aedificabo ecclesiam meam c. that is to saye I tell the as my father hathe made manifest to the his diuinitie so doe I declare to the thy excellencie that thow arte Petre that is Note how Christe is the rocke and how Petre. to saie whereas I am the inuiolable rocke and corner stone which make bothe one the fundation beside the whiche no man can laye anie other yeat arte thow also a rocke because by my strength thow arte made sounde and massiff that those thinges which are propre to my selfe by power maye be common betwene vs by participation and vpon this rocke will I builde my churche You haue hearde M. Nowell for one place brought by you out of S. Austen to confirme youre purpose three other euen taken from the same man to the contrarie Yow In his bookes of Retractations haue hearde that in that verie booke where withe better iudgement he ouerloketh and correcteth all his former doinges he maketh it a matter indifferent to thinke either the one waye or the other Last of all you haue hearde the iudgemēt of nyne of the moste learned fathers in Christes churche agreing all in one sentence against you Go youre waies nowe and boaste of S. Austen being against all these fathers and him selfe to if he shoulde be of the minde that you would haue him to be I trust you shall neuer be hable to bring the wise or learned in to such a fooles paradise as to make them leauing the whole consent of so manie learned doctours to folowe youre interpretation grounded vpon one not muche liking the same him selfe You gather of this place of S. Austen an argument against fol. 110. ◠17. religiouse men You moued it before and there the reader shall finde it answered Yeat this to saye of the Augustiniās of whome warily you forbare to make anie mention before the reason that you make here why they shoulde not be of S. Augustines institution is false and vntrue For neither the Dominicanes bearing the name of S. Dominike nor the Franciscanes of sainte Frauncis neither yeat these Augustinians of sainte Augustine doe beare these names in suche sorte as the Corinthians did claime to holde of suche as baptised them How they did it appeareth by these wordes of sainte Austen here in this place by you alleaged Apostolus autē Paulus vbi cognouit se eligi Christum contemni diuisus est inquit Christus The Apostle Paule when he perceiued that he was chosen and Christe contemned why saieth he is Christe diuided In this wise M. Nowell because the Augustinians neither builde vpon sainte Austen nor are called after his name there is no cause yeat shewed why they maie not be well inough of his institution as that they are Richardus Cenomanus in his learned censure vpon sainte Austens rule hathe againste Erasmus moste euidently proued As for youre other witnesses that you can ioyne to Erasmus that popes haue bene heretikes if that could be proued A. 24. by a hundred witnesses yeat till you be hable to proue that they had erred in defining anye matter iudicially and deliuering the same to the whole churche of Christe yowe haue proued nothing against this See that there is not the rocke With like fraude did M. Dorman leaue also that whiche nexte Nowell b. 17. foloweth in S. Hierome of the house without the whiche he that eateth the paschall lambe is a prophane or vnholy man and the arke of Noe withoute the whiche all that be perishe by the floude For though in that place it might seeme to make for M. Dormans purpose concerning the supremacy of the B.
of Rome as Erasmus hathe noted yet he knowing or some man warning him that the house withoute the whiche the paschall lambe maye not be eaten the arke c. by all doctours is interprete to be the one vniuersall church of Christe and by none to be the churche of Rome therefore like a wise man or elles a false fox he let that folowing alone also as he cut of Christe the heade going and ioyned nexte before and so he hathe tolde you a tale bothe withoute heade and tayle thereby to proue the pope who is Antichrist to be the heade of Christes churche Is not this M. Nowell more then intollerable impudencie Dorman to charge me with fraude for the leauing out of that sentence then which there is none either in the workes of S. Hierome him selfe or anie of the other learned doctours that more maketh for the dignitye of the see of Rome for the omitting whereof in my boke I deserued rather to be noted at the catholikes handes of ouermuche simplicitye then at youres of fraude and sutteltye But howe truly here let the place itselfe iudge Omitting Erasmus whose iudgement nowe you condemne which yeat in me might haue bene counted some pointe of leuitie if I had euer praised him as you did before to be no vnskillfull or negligent viewer of the olde fathers writinges I will come to the place it selfe whiche I doubte not but by construing for I truste although you care not muche for the rules of the churche you owe yeat for olde acquaintaunce youre reuerence to the rules of Grammer to make bothe you and other men to vnderstād also how much this place maketh for me and howe little cause I had to suppresse it and howe muche yet lesse you had to make anye mention of it Saint Hieromes wordes therefore concerning this matter are these Ego nullum primum nisi Christum sequens beatit udini tuae id est cathedrae Petri communione consocior Super illam petram aedificatam ecclesiam scio Quicunque extra hanc domum agnum comederit prophanus est Nowe let vs construe M. Nowell Ego I sequens folowing nullum primum none first nisi Christum but Christ cōsocior am ioyned communione in communion beatitudini tuae to thy holynesse id est that is to saie cathedrae Petri to the chaire of Petre. Super illā petrā vpō that rocke what rocke M. Nowel but the same chaire of Peter to the whiche he professed him selfe to be ioyned in communion going nexte before these wordes scio I knowe ecclesiam the churche aedificatam to be builded Quicunque who so euer comederit shall eate agnum the lambe extra hanc domú out of this house prophanus est is prophane Now these wordes being truly by me thus construed euerye man learned and vnlearned maye see that S. Hierome by the house whiche he here mentioneth ment Christes vniuersall churche but builded Super illam petram vpon that rocke whiche rocke in the wordes nexte before he called Petres chaire to saie Petres auctoritie If you can construe them otherwise and make them to haue any other relation then this and proue it by the rulers of Gramer you maye vaunt that you haue showed vs a scholemasters tricke that neuer was harde of yeat But I am halfe in dispare that you shall euer be able seing that youre frinde Erasmus as good a Grammarian as you and as euill in a maner affected to the See of Rome as appeareth in diuerse places by his notes and censures coulde finde no suche shifte and therefore was faine as you muste at the length to confesse the truthe that S. Hierome was of the minde that all churches shoulde be subiecte to the churche of Rome or at the least no strangers from it Nowe whereas you saye that this house that S. Hierome mentioneth is of none interprete to be the churche of Rome what were that to oure purpose if it were so seing it is interprete of the vniuersall churche whiche is of all the auncient fathers acknowledged to be builded vpon Peters chaire as S. Hierome saieth here and as hathe bene declared before S. Cyprian who calleth the churche of Rome for that cause catholicae fidei Lib. 4. epist 8. radicem matricem the rocke and mother churche of the catholike churche Yeat lacke there not also fathers that in a sense that is as in the churche of Rome all other churches are conteined call it also by the name of the catholike churche As in effect S. Ambrose did when he called Damasus the pope ruler of the whole church which he coulde by no meanes be but as he was bishop of Rome Thus In commēt in cap. 3. 1. Tim. muche maie serue for my purgation that I haue not delt fraudulently in leauing out this parte of S. Hieromes sentence Nowe let vs procede Yow make much adoe about Vitalis and Meletius and saie that I saie vntrulie that S. Hierome saieth he knoweth not Nowell fo 111. a. 1. them because they were aduersaries to the seate of Rome the cause being because they were aduersaries to the true doctrine of the moste blessed Trinitie whiche Damasus did defende I reporte me to the learned whether I had cause to saie Dorman so or no not because of these wordes who so euer gathereth not with the scattreth alone which might perhappes be trulie spoken to anie other catholike bishop but because of the circumstances that go before ioyned to these as the consulting of Petres chaire the ioyning of him selfe thereto in communion To the whiche because they did not ioyne them selues as he did he refused them If yow had spoken no more vntrulie then I yowe woulde not to colour the matter the better haue imagined that emongest other causes why S. Hierome kepte not these schismatikes companie one was because they were foriners and not his owne bishoppes an other for that they were of a strange language Ah M. Nowell did yow nodde here that yowe coulde not see that S. Hierome affirmeth that the folowed the Aegiptian confessors the bishop of Romes felowe bishoppes Were not they as muche foriners to him as were Vitalis and Meletius was not their language as strange Yeat yow vpon this desire the reader to note that S. Hierome woulde B. 25. not knowe Vitalis and Meletius because they were foriners not his owne bishoppes c. And so make a comparison betwene youre refusall of the pope and S. Hieromes refusall of these schismatikes laing for a grounde without anye proufe that the pope is a foriner and hathe nothing to doe withe yow Of the place of S. Austen taken out of the 110. question of his questions vpon the olde and newe testament The 29. chapiter HERE M. Nowell vpon the censure of Erasmus of this worcke of S. Austens maketh this shorte but sharpe conclusion against me So that it were to muche impudency for Nowell fo 112. a. 30. Dorman anie man but only M.
which hathe bene in this Repronfe of youres verie often that betwene the gouernemet of the church and the whole worlde there is greate oâ—â—es so doe I nowe answere you againe But you will saie that I am the auctor of this comparison my selfe who reason that the churche must haue one heade because kingdomes countries cities be so best gouerned It is my reason I confesse that euery thing that is one is best gouerned by one And therefore the worlde it selfe were for vs that liue in the same best gouerned by one chiefe heade vnder Christe if for the paine of oure sinnes God had not disposed the same to be gouerned by manie Which when yow saie to be a thing impossible bothe in the church and in the world you speake as you are wont without anie proufe muche to the derogation of goddes omnipotency Nowe to come to youre comparison see I praie yow whether if God had appointed all the kingdomes in the worlde to be one as he hathe all the churches to be one for he came into the worlde vt dispersos congregaret in vnum Psal 146. to gather the dispersed together it shoulde not be also a deade troncke if it lacked a visible heade to make it one Your similitude betwene the churche and oure common wealthe is made betwene Christe heade of the churche onlye a multitude of ministres gouernours of the same vndre him and the common wealthe hauing God the heade in heauen and one prince his seruaunt and heade gouernour in earthe This comparison maketh not onelye not withe yow but verie muche also against yow First it maketh not with yow because yow supposing the churche to be one bodie and Christe the onelye heade thereof allowe to the churche manie vndreheades whereas in the common wealthe being allso one bodye and the other parte of the comparison there is mention but of one heade vndre Christe the prince him selfe So that thereupon to infer that the churche hauing an infinite no more of heades beinge but one bodye is no monstre because the common wealth hauing but one visible heade like to it selfe is no monstre it is a monstrouse conclusion more meete to procede from a blocke that hathe no sense or a monstre that hathe manye heades but wit in none of them then from a creature endowed with reason It maketh against yowe thus the common wealth where be manie heades and euerie one will gouerne is a monstrouse bodye but the churche is Christes common wealthe and hathe as yowe saie manie heades to gouerne it therfore it is a monstre Againe The common wealthe that because Christe is the onelye heade thereof in heauen will admit no other chiefe heade in earthe is a blocke But so doeth youre churche therefore it is a blocke or deade troncke As for the conclusions that yowe saie I maie make that God and Christe be no heades or no suche heades c. and againe that aswell all kingdomes and common wealthes in Christendom be liue monstres as hauing many heades c. In dede I muste nedes confesse a truthe God hathe giuen me free will and I maie abuse it if I list and make as manye foolishe conclusions as yow haue done But I trust yowe will not deale with me as yow ruffled before with the pore Franciscanes and those of the company of Iesus to conclude that I will saie so because I maie saie so if I list to plaie the foole Nowe to these conclusions I saie that trulie I can not so conclude the first of them folowing no better then if yow M. Nowell woulde conclude that God and Christe the auctors of all true doctrine can not instructe men if it so pleased them in all wholesome knowledge without the externall helpe of man because they doe this by men For euen as God vseth the ministery of men to teache and preache not as though he coulde not so doe without for our infirmities sake and because it pleased the diuine wisdome that Christe the seconde persone in Trinitie should not be allwaies visibly present with vs for the same cause hathe it pleased all mightie God to gouerne the membres of his churche by the meanes of one visible heade the B. of Rome The folie of youre seconde conclusion appeareth I doubte not by the difference that is betwene all the churches of the world which make all but one and the kingdomes which be diuerse and were neuer appointed to be one And had M. Dorman had so muche leasure from his diuinitie Nowell matters as to haue looked better vpon his notes of the canon lawe his peculier studie he woulde haue bene better aduised then to haue called vs Acephalos headlesse and therefore deade trunckes who doe obeie oure owne prelates seing Acephali as is there noted are those who be subiecte to no prelate And had M. Nowell had so muche witte to haue loked Dorman first vpon the texte and then vpon the glose from whence he borowed this note he woulde haue bene better aduised then to haue alleaged it of all other for their defence For by the texte it appeareth that those whome the glose there calleth Acephali had heades quos ministros seu custodes vel gardianos aut nominibus alijs appellant whome they cal ministres kepars wardens or by other names Why dothe the glose then call then headlesse quia sub nullius veri praelati obedientia existunt because they are vnder the obedience of no true prelate This is the reason of the glose But yeat let vs aske an other question why were they vnder the obedieÌ„ce of no true prelate Because their heades were not alowed by the pope This is the reason of the texte You must not be angry with me M. Nowel for charging you as I doe with the canoÌ„ law For you bogge me in my peculier studie as you saie and you seme to haue coÌ„ceiued greate trust vpoÌ„ this place which maketh me the bolder and earnester to With the texte and the glose agreeth reason for if your head that standeth now vpon your shoulders should sodenly be turned in to the heade of an Asse he should not saye amisse that for all the long eares shoulde saye you were headlesse not for that that yow had no heade at all suche a one as it were but in this respect that you had no suche heade as you shoulde haue no suche heade as a preacher shoulde loke out of a pulpite withal To come nowe nearer to the common case of you all and to exemplifie it by some of youre lignage that haue gone before you were the subiectes of Nouatus trowe you that false bishop Acephali without a heade when forsaking Cornelius the B. of Rome they obeied him If they were you are For youre case is like your bishoppes being no more truly bisshoppes then Nouatus was nor alltogether so truly neither For he was made bishop by two bishoppes laufully made by the pope whereas you were made by the commission
is not necessarie that thinges compared should be one in all pointes They agree in this that kinges and bishoppes are bothe heades and gouernours the pointe where in the comparison was made Nowe whereas to this that I saie that the B. of Cauntorbury is heade off the bishoprike and diocesse of London as he is of all the bishoprikes within his prouince and that yeat a man can not infer vpon this that therefore the bishopp of London is not heade of that his diocesse as yow doe in saing that because Christe is heade of the whole churche therfore there is no other vnder him whereas I saie to this yow answere that youre bishoppes take it for theire chiefe honour to be and to be called gods ministres in his churche so doe oure bishoppes to M. Nowell and vsed no other titles then those whiche your false bishoppes hauing falsely vsurped vse and abuse at this daie but what is that to the matter that we entreate of Well be bolde man and blushe not coffe owt that tuffe fleaume that lieth in youre throte and saie that the archebishop is of no more power then the bishop If yow had saide thus then had yow answered yeat some thing whereas nowe yowe haue answered nothinge Except this maie stande for youre answere when yow proue it that neither Archebishop nor bishop maie be called heades of the churches fo 81. a. 6. that they gouerne but rather kinges and princes Whiche opinion because yowe see that it is contrarie to all M. Nowell laboureth to helpe his owne contradiction by a folishe shift that yow saied before touching the places of S. Cyprian and S. Hierome where yowe confessed so often that euerie bishop was heade of his owne diocesse to salue that sore yow saie Yeat I denie not but that bishoppes maie be and haue bene Nowell a. 17. though improprely named heades euen by good writers as the scholemaister of a prince in that the prince is his scholer is his heade c. Surely bishoppes are muche beholden vnto yowe that Dorman yow graunte them so muche auctoritie ouer their flocke as yow had ouer your scholers when yow were scholemaister of Westminstre But I praie you M. Nowell cal to your remēbraunce that S. Ciprian saieth of the bishop that he is in the diocesse where he ruleth the iudge in Christes stede that S. Hierom calleth him the high prieste that he must he saieth haue pearelesse auctoritie aboue all other that schismes rise by not obeing him and iudge with your selfe what a handsome comparison you haue made But admitting euen youre owne similitude you shall see how muche you haue saide for the auctoritie of bishoppes against that vnlaufull othe which you exact of all men Euē as the scholemaistre is in his schole the heade of his scholers allthough they be princes so be bishoppes the heades of suche as be in their seuerall bishoprikes all though they be princes but the scholemaister in his schoole is the supreme gouernour in all thinges and causes belonging to the schole his scholers allthough princes hauing in those thinges no power to commaunde Ergo the bishoppes are euery one in his churche the supreme gouernours in all thinges ecclesiasticall and princes haue no auctoritie to entremedle therein The which conclusion deduced M. nowell from your comparison as youre selfe with honestie can not mislike so I trust it shall displease no prince considering that as S. Ambrose saieth there can be nothing more honorable for Epist 32. ad Valent. the Emperour then to be called the sonne of the churche For a good Emperour saieth he is within the churche not aboue the churche But because this sentence is become nowe in Englande by the meanes of certeine clawbackes to be odioufe I will in defence of M. Nowell if anie perhappes woulde quarell with him for giuing to bishoppes so greate auctoritie adde out of Chrisostome of hūdreds of places that might be brought to that effect only one which is this Quanquā nobis admirandus videtur thronus regius ob gēmas affixas Homil. 5. de Esaiae verbis vidi Dominū The power of the prince and of the priest aurū quo obcinctus est tamen rerum terrenarū administrationē sortitus est nec vltra potestatem hanc preterea quicquā habet auctoritatis verum sacerdoti thronus in coelis collocatus est de coelestibus negotijs pronunciandi habet auctoritatem That is to saye Allthough the kinges throne seme to vs merueilouse for the pretiouse stones and golde wherewith it is garnished yeat hath he only the administration of earthly thinges and aboue this power he hathe no auctoritie but the priest hathe his throne in heauen and auctoritie to pronounce of heauenly affaires And thus muche by occasion of the auctoritie that you giue to bishoppes as greate ouer their diocesse as schoolemaisters haue ouer their schooles I woulde furder if it were not for troubling you haue desired you to haue named some good auctor to iustifie this saing of youres that bishoppes when they be called heades are so called improperly But I refer that to youre good discretion and to your better laisour Whether Christe nede to haue one to gouerne his churche vnder him and howe The 23. Chapitre IT IS true the Apologie and we all likewise saye that neither Nowell a. 30. b. 1. hathe Christe nede of anie suche one only heade vicair ouer all his churche which M. Dorman a little before dothe confesse him selfe neither is it Christes will to haue any suche heade vicair For though M. Dorman affirme that he so woulde yeat shall he neuer by the holie scripture wherein Christes will is declared be able to prome it Thirdly it is impossible for anie earthely man to haue and to execute anie suche office c. For the proufe of the first of these thre pointes yow Dorman bring my selfe for a witnes in my boke fo 9. b. Where I haue no such thing but onelie this that Christe had as little nede to gouerne his churche in the olde lawe by the helpe of one heade as he hath nowe I denied not then but he had nede nowe Therefore you continue youre accustomed wont of beelieng me If you aske me how he hath nede A lye 69. which is God I answere that as he neded the witnesse of men as appeareth by this There was a man sent from God Ioan. 1. whose name was Iohn to beare witnes of the light And againe Ioan. 15. Yow shall beare witnes of me because yow haue ben withe me from the beginning for the infirmities sake of men not for him selfe so for vs which can not commodiously be gouerned Howe God nedeth a heade to gouerne his churche nor well kept in orde without one heade a man as we are oureselues to whome in all controuersies we might haue recourse God hath nede of suche a heade Thus take I neede now taking it in youre
sense for absolute nede I saie that he hath no more suche nede to haue anie in his place ouer euerie particuler church then ouer the whole For as well is he present where two or thre be gathered together Matth. 18. in his name and therefore withe euerie particuler churche or diocesse as withe the whole To the seconde point that Christ will haue no suche heade vicair the contrary whereof you saie I shall neuer be hable to proue by the holie scripture I answere that if you will stande to the interpretation of Christes churche and the learned writers of the same vpon suche places as I shall bring I shall be able to proue it Christe saide to Peter And I saie to the that thow art Peter and vpon this rocke will I builde my churche Here is Matth. 16. scripture Chrysostome sayethe that by these wordes Homil. 55. in Matth. Christe made Peter the shepherd of his church and a little after expounding these wordes And what so euer thow shalt binde vpon earthe that he made him the shepherd and heade thereof And vpon that as a moste sure grounde and confessed truth he disputeth against the Arrians and proueth Note that Christe who gaue suche preeminence to Peter was not inferiour to his father He compareth also Hieremias and S. Peter together To Hieremias saieth he God Hierem. 1. the Father saide lyke an iron piller and like a brasen wall haue I put the. But Hieremias the father placed but ouer one nation Peter Christe placed ouer all the whole worlde Christe Ioan. vlt. saide to the same Peter Feede my lambes feede my lambes Feede my sheepe His sheepe were the Apostles His whole flocke consisted of Lambes and sheepe He committed therefore to his charge young and olde strong and weake He excepted none not the Apostles them selues We haue here that Christe gaue the charge euen of his Apostles to Peter We finde elles where that he bad him coÌ„firme his brethern Lucae 22. Showe you one place in the scripture where any other had lyke preeminence or where this was taken awaye and then you maye saye that Christe will haue no suche heade vicair Chrysostome vpon this latter place sayeth Si amas me fratrum curam suscipias If thou loue me Peter take vppon the the charge of thy brethren And in an other place Lib. 2. de sacerdotio because you shall not wrangle and saye that this auctoritye died with Peter he hathe that he committed the same to his successours also S. Augustine expounding this place of S. Iohn hathe these wordes Dicit Dominus Petro in quo vno Sermo de verb. dom 49. format ecclesiam c. Pasce oues meas Oure Lorde saieth to Peter in whom alone he fasshioneth and frameth his churche feede my sheepe What other fasshioning or framing can you here vnderstande of Christes churche then that there shoulde be one heade for euer after as he drewe the plat thereof in making Peter heade of all What other fasshioning then that where of S. Cyprian as you hearde before Lib. de vnitat ecclesiae speketh when he sayeth that oure Lorde disposed the beginning of the vnitye of his church to procede from one And thus muche for this time maye suffice for this se conde pointe Of impos sibilitie The thirde hathe bene often times answered before That the groundes whereon the Swenckfeldians leane fol. 82. a. to bannishe all Scripture and those that the heretikes vse to spoile vs of one vniuersall heade ouer Christes churche are like and that M. Nowell in handling this argument hath vsed many shameful shiftes The 24. Chapter IN THE handling of this matter of Swenckfeldius I haue obserued that you haue diuided M. Nowell the whole processe in to three partes In the firste you purge youre selfe and youre companions of that whiche you saye I charge you with all of agreeing with the Swenckfeldians in their opinion in the seconde you shewe wherein I compare you together in the thirde you compare vs with Suenckfeldius and his In the prosecuting of these pointes you shewe right well that Nowell will be Nowell as well as Geta wil be Geta as if the reader vnderstand not I trust he shall ere it be long To the firste I answere that I neuer burdened you with the selfe same heresie that Suencfeldius helde but onely tolde you that by harping to muche on this string Christ is euer present with his churche therefore there nedeth no man to succede him in the whole yow might comme as neare hys heresie as he that you charged therewith was farre from it The laboure therefore that you toke the incke and paper that you spent to purge youre selfe in this pointe was superfluouse and might well haue bene spared And so would you I thinke also haue done had you not thought that it shoulde helpe youre cause not a little to persuade the reader off me that I were an euill tongued man and that I toke no conscience to scalundre and sowe vntrue reportes of suche good men as yowe be And therefore you conclude thus Wherefore M. Dorman you haue done nothing elles but bewrayed Nowell fol. 82. a. 19. youre moste maliciouse blindenesse in saing that it is no other thing that the Huguenots and heretikes doe and that we do leane and rest vpon the selfe same reasons and groundes as dyd Swenckfeldius Lo good reader marke here I beseche the the vnhonest Dorman dealing of M. Nowell Whereas I saye that the heretikes in that argument of theirs Christ is euer present with his church c. doe no other thing then leane and reste vpon the same groundes for the banishing of the heade of Christes churche on whiche the Swencfeldians doe for the abolishing of the scripture in steppeth M. Nowell that true dealing M. Mowell altereth my wordes to saue him selfe from â—heng man and here in his conclusion diuideth my wordes and for this one thing that theye doe no other then leane vpon the same groundes maketh me to saye two thinges Firste that the Huguenots and heretikes doe no other then the Sweckfeldians and that they do leane and rest vpon the same groundes that Swenckfeldius did Is it all one M. Nowel to saie yo doe no other then Arrius did and you leane to the same groundes that Arrius did Against transsubstantiation yow vse the same grounde that the Arrians did against the word Homousion for thei beleued it not because they saide it was not expressed in scripture and yow beleue not the doctrine of transsubstantiation for the same cause yeat is it not true that you doe no other theÌ„ they in al thinges because yow doe the same that they doe in one thing You re railing talcke and slaunderouse reportes in calling my doinges doltishe my heade foolishe c. because fo 83. b. 14 they be the floures of youre rhetorike strowed here to beautifie this first pointe and