Believers that is not of the true Church On the other side when we see men undergo long sharp tryals without being removed either from the profession of the true Doctrine and Worship or from that of Righteousness and Holiness in this respect here is made a positive distinction and such as makes us acknowledg that these persons are of the true Church of Jesus Christ I confess these distinctions are not always either so certain as never to admit of mistakes nor so universal as not to confound one with another For a man may judg rashly of both sorts either for want of knowing mens particular circumstances and the motives they went upon or some other way and it is never seen that all Hypocrites discover themselves at once But however there is great use to be made of this distinction and such a visibility of the true Church results from it as is in some sort personal according to our Hypothesis Now Sir you see whether M. de Condom was in the right to take it for granted as if it were a certain truth that there was no visible Church but such a one as he defined that comprehends good and bad true Believers and Worldlings contrary to the Scriptures and St. Augustin's sense You see too whether he was in the right to maintain in this first part of his discourse that we deny the Churches visibility The Pretended Reform'd says he will not have the visible Church to be that which is called Jesus Christ's Body Which is then that Body where God hath established some Apostles c. Which is that Body where God hath placed several Members and different Graces the Grace of Ministry the Grace of Teaching the Grace of Exhortation and Consolation the Grace of Ruling Which I say is that Body if it be not the visible Church We never denied the visible Church upon Earth to be Christ's Body not the whole Body indeed for there is one part of it collected in Heaven and another not yet in being but still that part upon Earth is Jesus Christ's Body so the Scripture calls it and we are so far from thinking as he saies that quite contrary we prove Hypocrites and Worldlings to be really no part of the true visible Church by this very Argument that it is called in Scripture the Body of Jesus Christ For this reason the visible Church is thus defined in the 27th Article of our Confession of Faith The company of the Faithful agreeing to follow the Word of God and that pure Religion grounded thereon and who constantly make proficiency therein Now this Company of the Faithful thus described is and is called the Body of Jesus Christ If M. de Condom had been at the pains to read Calvin he would find him speaking of the visible Church in the 4th Book of his Institutions Chap. 1. thus It is no ordinary commendation the Scripture gives it when 't is said Ephes 5. 26 27. that Christ hath chosen it and separated it for his spouse to make her without spot and wrinkle his body and his fullness M. Mestrezzat speaking of the visible Church in the same sense says The instruments made use of by God to build his Church are the Pastors and Ministers of his Gospel Ephes 1. 23. according to that of St. Paul Ephes 4. He hath given some Apostles and some Prophets and some Evangelists and some Pastors and Teachers for the gathering together the Saints for the work of the Ministry for the edifying of the Body of Christ And a little after The same Body of Christ which is invisible as to the Election of God and inward sanctification of the heart enjoys the visible Ministry of the Word and from it brings forth fruit unto salvation For we must not look for the Church of God out of this visible state of the Ministry of the Word The same thing I say with relation to that other passage of St. Paul where he says Ephes 5. 25 26 27. Jesus Christ loved the Church and gave himself for it that he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the Word That he might present it to himself a glorious Church not having spot or wrinkle They will not have it possible says M. de Condom Conference Page 5. for this place to be understood of the visible Church not yet of the Church on Earth He must pardon me if I say he is mistaken for tho we understand by this the Church already in Heaven yet do we besides understand the visible Church upon Earth and M. Mestrezzat speaking of this passage saies expresly That St. Paul there sets forth the Church as one and the same Body receiving Grace and Glory and makes Glory to be the perfection and accomplishment of Grace It is evident then that the visible Church is in our Opinion Jesus Christ's Body or which comes all to one that the Body of Christ which is the true Church upon Earth is visible I should now conclude my Third Enquiry did I not think my self under an obligation to remove some difficulties which may be started upon it For it may be said the Ministry is common to good and bad and consequently it makes a Church composed of good men and bad I answer that the Ministry and the use of it is common both to good and bad comes to pass only by accident and from the treachery of the Enemy Of right it belongs to true Believers only and its genuine design was for them Jesus Christ gave it for the assembling of the Saints and instituted it to increase and cultivate his good Corn. If the Tares use it or to speak more truly abuse it this is contrary to his intention For his hand never sowed these but the enemy's who rose by night for that purpose It is sure then that the Ministry of it self does not make up a Church composed of good and bad men because such only as it was intended to gather are to be reckoned of his visible Church Now the Ministry is designed to gather the true Believers and truly Righteous not the worldlings and hypocrites in the least If they thrust themselves into the Assemblies it is not the Ministry that calls them but the spirit of the world that sends them thither An invincible argument that there is no other visible Church but what consists of true Believers because they are the only persons call'd to Religious Assemblies and it is not Jesus Christ but Jesus Christ's enemy that thrusts others into them To give you yet further satisfaction as to this Point permit me Sir to interpose between M. de Condom and St. Augustin not to set them at difference but endeavour to reconcile them M. de Condom assures me that Jesus Christ in that passage Tell it the Church spoke of a visible Church a Church visible by the exercise of the Ministry St. Augustin on the other side assuâ—es me that he speaks of
person to understand the true meaning of Scripture better than the whole body of the Church Tell me now Sir whether according to this principle this Child be not obliged always to abide within that Heretical or Schismatical Church Tell me what means you will contrive for him to get out of it It is evident then that your principle would serve as well to continue a Jew in his Judaism a Pagan in his Heathenism and a Heretick in his Heresy as an Orthodox Christian in the true Church To this M. de Condom replied that in the perswasion of that Aethiopian Child we must make a difference between that part which proceeded from the Holy Spirit and that which is the effect of prejudice and humane prepossession That the Holy Spirit 's dictate was in general that there was a Catholick Church somewhere or other but his supposal that the Church in which he was born was that Catholick Church proceeded from humane prepossession It is true he did from this Church receive the Scriptures and belived them to be Divine for no other reason but upon its Authority But afterwards as he was reading the Scriptures the Holy Ghost raised in him some scruples about the Church he was born in and by this means he came off from the Heresy and Schism he found himself insnared in Mr. Claude returned that M. de Condom must of necessity either retract his principle or confess what he now alledged to be utterly impossible Because this Aethiopian neither can nor must be allowed to understand the Scriptures any otherwise than in the sense and interpretation of his own Church by whose Authority it is that he believes them to be Divine and from whose hands he receives their meaning so that when he reads Scripture there can never start up any scruples in his mind against the truth of his own Church because he never expounds any Text of Scripture but in agreement with the sense of that Church about it Now if on the other side your meaning be that this person expounds Scripture of his own head and according to his own judgment so taking it in a sense different from that of the Church you at the same time make him forego the principle that you have all this while been contending for and it is not you only that make him forego it but you do besides maintain that the Holy Ghost himself makes him forego it and all those mighty inconveniences you exclaimed against vanish into nothing He added moreover that what M. de Condom said last justified the measures the Protestants had taken in relation to the Church of Rome for altho that had been believed to be the Catholick Church in the time of our Infancy tho we had received the Scriptures from her and believed them to be of Divine Authority yet must we not be blamed for making a difference between that part of this belief which proceeded from the Holy Ghost and that which was the effect of humane Prepossession and Prejudice We cannot be found fault with for having admitted some Scruples against the Truth of this Church as we read the Scriptures and for having upon this accout withdrawn our selves from her Communion M. de Condom said the Cases did still differ in this circumstance That the Ethiopian when he left his own would betake himself to the Catholick Church whereas the Pretended Reformed have not put themselves into any other Communion at all You courted indeed Jeremy's the Patriarch of Constantinople but he would have nothing to do with you The separation was not from our selves said Mr. Claude and that is enough to shew that we have not separated from the true Church If Jeremy the Patriarch of Constantinople would have nothing to do with us as you say that was to his own loss and he did not do as he should have done in it Upon this the Company rose and the Conference which lasted some time longer grew a great deal more confused several things were then spoken of M. de Condom exaggerated much and pretended to draw a parallel between the separation of the Protestants and that of the old Hereticks particularly the Arrians and Macedonians that set up new Churches by themselves Mr. Claude compared the Protestants behaviour to that of Christ's Apostles when they separated from the Jews that as the Apostles relied on Scripture against the Jews who relied upon Ecclesiastical Assemblies and their Authority the Protestants did the same against the Church of Rome He said the Arrians maintained that the Consubstantiality of the Son of God determined by the Nicene Council was a Novel Doctrine and that many other persons had in truth exprest themselves very unadvisedly concerning the Divinity of the Son among others he instanced in Origea Justin Martyr and the Council of Antioch As for Origen M. de Condom said he was a suspected Author and the Council of Antioch said he was an Arrian Council to which Mr. Claude replied that he was much mistaken for that Council was held before Arrius his time and yet rejected the Term Consubstantial As to Justin Martyr How Sir said he a Martyr speak amiss of the Divinity of the Son of God! I will never believe a word on 't You may believe what you think sit Sir said Mr. Claude but for all that the thing is even so Afterwards M. de Condom put himself upon the Invocation of Saints and Prayers for the Dead For the first of these he told them Mr. Daille had allowed it to be Thirteen hundred years old and Mr. Blondell acknowledged the second to be of great Antiquity Mr. Claude replied it was no great wonder if the Church of Rome which had collected and Cononized the Errors and Superstitions of former Ages had picked up some that were of a good old standing But he ought to have said withal that Mr. Daille had made it appear that for Three hundred years together there was not to be found the least footsteps of Invocation of Saints and especially that there was not any manner of ground for it in Scripture That he acknowledged Prayer for the Dead to be one of the oldest superstitions but there was a mighty difference between the practice of the Primitive Christians and the modern devotions of the Romish Church And after all it was an Error contrary to the principles of Scripture M. de Condom betook himself again to the Comparison between the Protestants and Hereticks of old inferring from thence that they and their Church was new and upstart Mr. Claude shewed him that this prejudice was extremely unjust and of very pernicious consequence Unjust because on one hand it placed the advantage on the strongest side and those that have most of their party whereas the Scripture teaches us quite contrary That we must not follow a multitude to do evil For the strongest side are continually taxing others with making a new Body and a new Church Unjust secondly because a false Antiquity may be
Mr. CLAVDE's ANSWER TO Monsieur de MEAVX's BOOK INTITULED A Conference with Mr. CLAUDE WITH HIS LETTER to a FRIEND WHEREIN He Answers a Discourse of M. de Condom now Bishop of Meaux concerning the Church IMPRIMATUR Junii 18. 1687. GVIL. NEEDHAM LONDON Printed for T. Dring at the Harrow in Fleetstreet at Chancery-Lane-end MDCLXXXVII THE Author's Preface AMONG all the Points in Controversy betwixt us and the Gentlemen of the Romish Communion it is plain there is not any one wherein they think better of their Cause than this which hath been started since our Reformation Concerning the Church and yet perhaps there is not any one wherein they have less reason to think so Were this groundless confidence observed to be predominant among the Vulgar only who seldom look beyond the prejudices of their Infancy or among the busy men of intrigue in the Age who are ever raising their worldly Advantages as a Bulwark against the Truth there would be no great reason to be surprised at it But the most amazing thing of all is that we continually meet with the same Opinion in persons that want neither Understanding nor sound Sense and Judgment and which otherwise seem men of Integrity and Sincerity so that there is scarce any question to be made but that they are verily perswaded of the thing as a certain undoubted Truth Now for the undeceiving these Persons it will in my opinion be convenient not only to set their own Conceptions before them but also to go back as far as the ground and original of those Conceptions that so they themselves may plese to make such Reflexions upon them as they shall judg fit and necessary The ground then of all this mistake is that upon pretence of the Churches being a Society they immediately suffer themselves to be possest at first with an Opinion That we are to judg of it almost in the same manner that we do of a Civil Society and so never give themselves the trouble of enquiring into the differences by which these two are distinguisht from one another Hence they have fancied that the Essence of the Church consists intirely in something External and that as a man need do no more to become a true Member of a Civil Society than only live in an outward observance of the Laws so to become a true Member of the Church no more was required than barely an outward Profession of the Faith and Religion and that there was no necessity at all of any inward Virtues such as Faith Hope and Charity This is the very thing that hath made the Definitions of most of their modern Divines who place it in a meer outward Profession be entertained with Approbation and Applause And when once these Definitions are received they are under a necessity of looking upon not any one part of these Professors to be the true Church of Jesus Christ but in general the whole Body of Professors whether they be good or bad men just or unjust hypocrites or sincere Believers From hence by another unavoidable consequence they are forced to conceive of the Church not only as an exterior and visible Body but as a Body distinctly and certainly visible to such a degree I mean that a man might point out without any danger of mistake the particular men of whom it is composed as plainly and distinctly as you can point the Persons that make up any other Society and declare without the least fear of mistaking your men such and such are members of it Such a visibility of the Church as this it is that Bellarmin hath explained thus The Church is a company of Men as visible and as palpable as the Citizens of Rome the Kingdom of France or the Republick of Venice So that his meaning is that as the French the Romans and Venetians may plainly and particularly be singled out so likewise may the Persons that make the Body of the Church be as particularly and with the same degree of certainty that they were Indeed if there be nothing besides a bare outward Profession required to make men truly Members of the Church This Profession is a thing discernable by the eye in every single person and thus the Church will be visible so as that particular men may be plainly distinguished to be of it By another necessary and unavoidable Consequence they were constrained to apply all the Promises made by God to his Church whether in the Old or New Testament to this visible and exteriour Body And being these Promises include the Churches perpetuity that they might keep as close to their first Notions as they could there was a necessity of explaining the Churches subsistence in this sense That the Church must always subsist after the manner of a sensible and palpable body so as to be the object of our sight and discernable by all the World even to a plain and positive distinction of particular persons Hence it is that they have drawn their so much boasted Succession and which all their disputes run so much upon Whereby they understand a continued train of Priests one after another in the same Episcopal Sees and a continued train of people making up the same Congregations so as that both People and Priests always make profession of the same Religion without any change or alteration except it be perhaps in matters of Discipline which are things that may very well admit of a change without making the Church to differ from what it was before Then carrying these Conceptions of theirs still further they fancied that as in order to the preservation of the Civil Society an absolute Supreme Authority to which all must bend is necessary because without such a one there would be no possible means of composing differences or preventing Domestick quarrels the same was likewise necessary in the Church That in this one Supreme and Absolute Tribunal must be acknowledged upon Earth that without this and an intire obedience paid to it even in matters of Conscience Dispute would never be ended nor Unity preserved but at last things would come to such a pass that there would start up as many Churches and different Religions as Families And this gave birth to their pretentions to Infallibility and a blind implicite obedience to the determinations of Councils without presuming to examine them at all Lastly It is by all these prejudicate opinions that the Gentlemen of the Romish Communion suppose themselves able to overthrow the Protestant-Cause and make that of their own Church impregnable The pretended Reformed Church say they cannot be this exterior body always visible and palpable which must have continued in this state of visibility and that without any alteration ever since Jesus Christ and the Apostles time down to ours because this is not above a hundred or sixscore years old Therefore it is not the Church of Christ This cannot shew a continued succession of Priests and People Assemblies and Episcopal Sees nor a profession of
triumphant in Heaven that which is now militant on Earth and that which is not yet in the world but shall be in succeeding Ages All these three Churches do really make but one because united together in the eternal purpose of God appointed to know one and the same Word to partake of one and the same Spirit and to inherit one and the same Glory They are but one Family for they have the same Father the same Rights and Priviledges the same Hopes and are called to the same Duties They are but one body under the protection and Guidance of Jesus Christ their only Head who is as the Scripture says The same yesterday to day and for ever And this is our sense of the Church called in the Creed Catholick or Universal The Latitude we here take the Church in hath displeased M. de Condom he says we put a wrong sense upon the Article and to understand it thus is in effect to reject it He is of opinion it should be confined to this part upon Earth which he defines A Society making profession to believe c. But in the first place M. de Condom must allow us to tell him that Saint Augustine however hath taught us to explain the Church in our Creed after this manner That Father indeed went farther than we do for he hath not scrupled to include in this notion the Angels confirmed in Grace Here says he and 't is in his very Exposition of the Creed that he says it we must take the Church whole and entire not only for that part of it upon earth which praises the name of God from the rising of the Sun unto the going down thereof singing to God a new Song since their deliverance from their former Captivity but also for that other part which is in Heaven and never was separated from the Divine presence the Blessed and Holy Angels The Body of Christ says he in another place is the Church not this or that Church but which is diffused over the whole world not that which is made up of men now alive but consisting of those which have been before us and those which shall come after us even to the end of the world For the whole Church being composed of all the Faithful in as much as all the Faithful are the Members of Jesus Christ 〈◊〉 Jesus Christ for its Head and this Head though exalted high in the Heavens does notwithstanding still continue to govern his body M. de Condom must likewise allow us to tell him that the Catechism of the Council of Trent hath given this sense of the Church in our Creed The Church it says and 't is in the very Explication of this Article hath two parts one of which is called Triumphant the other Militant The Triumphant is that illustrious assembly of the Blessed and all those who have vanquished and triumph'd over the World the Flesh and the Devil and who being now delivered from the miseries of this life enjoy everlasting rest and felicity The Church Militant is the company of all the Faithful yet alive upon earth which is therefore called Militant because they are engaged in a perpetual war with these most deadly enemies Satan the World and the Flesh Yet must we not from hence imagine that they are two distinct Churches but as was said two parts of one and the same Church one of which is gone before and already possest of its Heavenly Country The other daily following after till at length being united with our Saviour it shall rest above in Eternal happiness Again We must desire M. de Condom's leave to say that the very Title of Catholick or Vniversal used in the Creed does lead us to this extended notion of the Church This to me seems evident for two reasons First that this Title is given the Church to distinguish it from all false Churches which do neither exist always nor every where but spring up and die away in some particular places and at some certain times as having no sound nor lasting principle Secondly that this Title was to distinguish it from particular Churches which are but members of this great Body collected by Christ and separated from the world that he might sanctifie it to himself Whence it follows that when we say the Vniversal or Catholick Church by this is plainly meant the Church intire and at large without exception or limitation either as to time or place Lastly M. de Condom must allow us to tell him that we are brought to this notion by what follows in the Creed The Communion of Saints which terms explain this of the Catholick Church For the Saints are not only persons now living upon Earth but those also that reign in Heaven and those which shall be to the worlds end and 't is with all these that we are in Communion If the Communion of Saints were to be understood of such only as make profession to believe in Jesus Christ and govern themselves by his word This could be no other than an external Communion by living under the same Ministry and partaking of the same Sacraments which good and bad men enjoy equally And certainly this would fall far short of so great so Majestick an expression and consequently could not deserve a room in our Creed But says M. de Condom in the Creed which was only a bare declaration of faith this term must be taken in its most proper and most natural signification and such as is most used among Christians I own it must be taken in its most proper and most natural sense but even this supplies us with a fresh argument against him it being certain that the most proper and most natural sense is to take the Vniversal Church for the company of all those that are truly the faithful separated from the world by the Word and Holy Spirit of God according to the purpose of his Election from the beginning to the end of all things I acknowledg the word Church when used in a Civil sense as for instance when spoken of the people of Israel does most properly signifie an external and visible company and so far I am of M. de Condom's mind both as to what he urges out of the Acts and from the Septuagint Translation But still I assert that this word when applied to a Christian Society does not properly denote a visible Congregation or an outward profession of the Faith and no more but chiefly an inward calling a spiritual communion and such as that outward is only a consequence of and does depend upon A man must be utterly ignorant of Christianity to deny this truth The Church then is a name for something within and not barely to signifie what passes without so that implying an inward communion when the Title of Vniversal is put to it it must needs mean the whole body of true and faithful Christians By the same reason I affirm this to be its most natural
Churchmen the Pulpits more zealous for Tales and Legends than the Word of God The Schools busying themselves with ridiculous Questions and Curiosities the Sacraments burdened with strange Ceremonies the instruction and edification of mens Souls wretchedly neglected and in a word the Gospel liberty changed into a temporal slavery This is what we mean by the state of the Church being interrupted this the ruine and desolation we bewail The Church hath not ceased to exist nor did she perfectly lose her visibility or her Ministry God forbid But both she and her Ministry have seen the natural state they ought to continue in changed and interrupted VIII Apply these principles now to our Reformation and then Sir you will discern that granting this supposition to be true that the Body of the Prelates invested in the ministry of the Church in our Fathers days and assembled in the Trent Council supposing I say that they delivered such determinations in points of Faith as are incompatible with Salvation Granting it to be true that they took away Christian Liberty by Anathematizing all who should refuse to believe and submit to those determinations as they did and by adding to all this violence and compulsion our Fathers had reason to look upon them as Ministers that had justly deprived themselves of all right to exercise their Ministry over them by such ill conduct and to give that power of the Ministry to others They had reason to look upon the party that adhered to these Prelates with such obstinate stiffness as a Body or Society of which a man could not positively say That is the particular Body wherein God nourishes and cherishes his Faithful and Elect. IX Hence likewise it follows that our Fathers are wrongfully charged with making a Schism and separating from the Church For it being sure that the Church consists of the Faithful only and besides that we are of opinion the Trent Bishops themselves broke the band of external Communion with sound Believers and brought things to such a pass that our Ancestors could not possibly joyn with them in the same Assemblies it is evident They were the Beginners of the Schism the Authors and makers of this lamentable division X. It signifies nothing to alledg that they were possest of the Ministry by an exterior and ordinary succession for the Ministry is not such a thing as men when once possest of can never forfeit their right to tho they abuse it never so much They enjoyed it by an external succession 't is confest but this succession with respect to mens persons continues no longer than we can say The faithful are under their Ministry When we cannot be sure of that any more from thenceforth the Prelates have lost their right and such a succession afterwards would be but as the succession of death to a disease or of night to twilight I do not say the Ministry it self is extinct God forbid but I say in such a case it devolves of right to that other part of the Society where the Faithful are The reason of which Truth is this That the Ministers are naturally the Church Representative And all their Authority is derived from the Body of the Faithful When therefore it happens that they break the band of external communion which joyns them to those Faithful it is plain they represent them no longer and the holding their Authority over them afterwards is a force and usurpation XI Lastly From the Principles we have established it appears how vain and ungrounded a scandal it is which the Controvertists of the Romish Communion are continually upbraiding us with of setting up a new Church For being the Church according to Scripture sound sense and the opinions of the Fathers is nothing else but the Society of true Believers To have set up a new Church we must have brought in a new Faith different from what Jesus Christ delivered to the World If they can convict us of being guilty in this point we are heartily content they should not only say we have formed a new Church but that we have formed a false perverse naughty Society and draw all the consequences against us that can be naturally drawn from that Concession But if we on the contrary have only rejected new Doctrines a worship that Christian Religion never was acquainted with and Errors brought into the Church since it was first established if we have only refined the Ministry and restored the Gospel to its natural lustre they ought to be just in acknowledgment that God hath made use of us for the preservation of his true Ancient Primitive Church and the rescuing it from oppression If it be true that the Trent Council have made Articles of Faith of such Doctrines and Practices as were never revealed to us by Christ may we not say that That hath set up a new Religion and consequently a new Church Let us judge of one another by this Rule of right reason and conscientiously examine the truth of what hath been done on both sides for upon such an examination the justice or injustice of taxing us with Novelty will depend THE SECOND PART OF Monsieur de CONDOM's Discourse EXAMINED THUS much I thought fit to say in Answer to the First part of M. de Condom's Discourse The Second will not detain us very long They made me says he some Objections concerning the frequent revolts of the people of Israel who had so often forsaken God the Kings and all the people as the Holy Scripture speaks during which the publick worship was so extinct that Elijah thought himself the only servant of God till he learnt from God himself that he had reserved to himself seven thousand men which had not bowed the knee unto Baal To this I answer'd proceeds he that for what regarded Elijah there was no difficulty since 't was apparent from the very words that it concern'd only Israel where Elijah prophesied and that the Divine Worship was so far from being at that time extinct in Judah that 't was there under the reign of Josaphat in the greatest lustre it had been since Solomon's time I shall not say here that the Divine Worship under the reign of Josaphat was not in such great lustre neither but that the Scripture informs us The high places were not taken away for the people offered still and burnt incense in the high places which was a worship forbidden by God But not to insist upon this I say in the first place This instance is a very good proof that the greatest part of this exteriour Society professing themselves to be the people of God that is ten tribes out of twelve were corrupted to that degree that Elijah complain'd he only was left Which shews that we must not always conclude Truth and Purity to be of that side where the number is most nor suppose it impossible for what we call the Visible Church to be corrupted at least as to the greatest part of Professors Secondly I
asserts that he should be turned into the field too And to let the World see that after all M. de Meaux's vain-glorious boasts of a victory and bold defiance of all the Doctors in Christendom neither the Champion nor the Cause however vilified by him are yet so feeble that they need fear to encounter this Goliah As many as understand the difference between us and the Reformed Protestants in France are sensible that we stand upon the fairer ground by much for an engagement against the Church of Rome But I was willing cur Country-men should have the satisfaction of seeing that it is M. de Meaux's misfortune to be reduced to streights not only by a Church of England Pen but by a Minister of his own Nation who lay under some disadvantages which we do not and that for all his Triumphant Preface before the Conference That could no more escape a reply at home than his Exposition has done abroad Another Objection against this Translation may be That the Conference hath appeared in our Language already I will not say it was in such a dress as was by no means after the English Mode and unworthy of so good an Original for fear of provoking a severer censure upon the habit I have now clothed it in to which I I have reason to fear it is but too obnoxious But setting aside all Reflections upon the defects of those who have gone before me this single consideration is enough to justifie and recommend the present attempt that the Relation which was then Printed alone is a very small part of the work And when M. de Meaux's Narrative had appeared in such pomp introduced by a long discourse upon the Church and backt with so many smart Reflexions M. Claude's memory might have suffered extreamly by concealing his abilities And particularly that notwithstanding the strain of confidence visible through all the Disputant's Writings of the Romish Communion he could and did retort to as good purpose and with as much advantage as Modesty and Reason usually have over Vanity This may amuse unthinking people who are apt to measure the weight of an Argument by the bigness of the words and assurance of the Arguer but the other only can prevail upon the Judicious and unprejudiced and will force a conquest by its own strength One thing I have augmented this Edition with which neither the former nor indeed Monsieur Claude's own Original have taken care of but 't is what I though highly necessary at this particular juncture The unsincerity we have so often discovered in the late Advocates for Popery makes us wish to take as little upon trust as may be And therefore since our repeated complaints have been so ineffectual I resolved to try if example would perswade them to any thing like Fidelity For this reason all the Quotations from Authors have been carefully consulted and at large transcribed by me in the Margent where you will also find if the Press do me right the Edition of each Book and if two have been consulted the difference of Chapters in each as particularly in St. Cyprian so that any man may now see at the expence of a very little trouble whether he be imposed upon or no. The same exactness may be taken notice of in many of our late Learned Writers but still there are a sort of men that will never suffer themselves to be run down for want of Recrimination and therefore tax us with negligence in this particular also Whether party better deserve this accusation the Author of Pax Vobis if they please shall be the Test who hath the impudence to repeat over and over so obvious a thing 〈◊〉 an Article of our Church and always by his own additionary Gloss make it speak quite another sense than ever was designed for it As for the stile of this Translation my care hath been to make it natural and easie rather than elaborate and fine As I did not enslave my self to a rendering every where Verbal so I durst not take upon me to alter much in order to being elegant Having one of the Parties engaged in this Conference for an eminent instance how shameful a disguise may be put upon things and what material Changes may be made even in the main points only for the greater neatness of the Discourse and Style I must own I have been a little bold in making this English Book to differ from Mr. Claude's French one in the method For he after his Introductory Discourse upon the Church hath subjoyned an Answer to M. de Meaux's five last Reflections so dispatching that Subject entirely and at once And likewise to the Relation of the Conference annexed a Reply to the other eight which concern That But I designing chiefly the benefit of those who either did not understand or could not procure the French and intending it for a direct answer to M. de Meaux in English did rather incline to follow the method of that Translation consulting herein the Readers ease when he shall think fit to compare them both together And because some time hath past since M. de Meaux appeared here I chose rather to divide This than suffer so long a delay as the finishing of the whole must needs have occasioned But that men may not be impatient for the remaining Part that also consisting of an Answer to M. de Meaux's Thirteen Reflections will I hope be sent after this very speedily Lastly Because M. de Meaux hath rightly observed that the Authority of the Relations will in a great measure depend upon the Relator's Credit I think my self obliged to give this intimation to as many as shall peruse them That they would do well to remember how many and what notorious falsifications M. de Meaux hath been charged with lately and that charge made good a second time by evident proofs of the thing notwithstanding all the pains taken by his Vindicator to bring him off whereas Mr. Claude for any thing I ever heard objected to the contrary is rectus in Curia clear and unsuspected of any such sophistical indirect dealing So that I mightily suspect M. de Meaux would not be able to do any great feats if both sides were agreed to put the issue of the whole Controversy upon each Author's Integrity and Reputation An Answer to Monsieur de MEAUX's Book c. SIR I Have a long time desired a sight of what you have now sent me It was told me on all hands That there was a Writing of Monsieur de Condom's abroad containing a relation of what past in the Conference I had the honour to have with him at the Countess of Roye's and some persons did even assure me they had heard it read But still I could meet with no body capable of giving me the satisfaction I lately received by your means This lays upon me a double engagement both to return you my thanks for it and at the same time to gratify
the curiosity you have to see what I wrote upon the same subject the next day after our Interview M. de Condom having profest it was not his desire that what past between him and me should be publickly talked of I thought my self under an obligation to confine what I had written to my own Study And this hath been hitherto very punctually observed by me But now since he hath thought fit to give out Copies of his I have reason to believe that in this respect he leaves me perfectly to my liberty and is well satisfied I should do the same thing with mine I have too great an opinion of M. de Condom's Wisdom not to follow his Example in this particular and I promise my self from his Equity that he will not find fault with me for treading in his steps But because he hath been pleased to impart to us that Discourse also which he had with Mademoiselle de Duâ—as in private the day before our Conference you will think it convenient that before I transcribe my Relation I should first make some reflections upon That Were this a discourse of such a nature as common occasions or accidents are used to produce where a man speaks without preparation or design and delivers himself with all the freedom imaginable I confess it were unjust to examine it strictly and by rule But seeing this was composed by M. de Condom with a prospect of obliging Mademoiselle de Duras to change her Religion and which seems a studied piece a Discourse which he hath joyned to the account of our Conference as a considerable part of what past in this matter Lastly a Discourse committed to Writing upon supposal that it may be useful to others and for that purpose made in some measure publick I cannot forbear looking upon it as a work of premeditation and returning some answer to it accordingly Besides that you and I are concerned as to what Mademoiselle de Duras hath done to desire to know whether she had sufficient reasons to forsake your Communion and embrace the Romish and the examination of this Discourse will be a very proper means of clearing that point to us Now it may be reduced to two principal Parts In the first M. de Condom makes it his business to shew that the Catholick or Universal Church which we profess to believe in the Creed is a Church thus defined A Society making profession to believe the Doctrine of Jesus Christ and govern it self by his word Whence he infers That it is a visible Society He pretends also to make it appear that to this Church thus defin'd belong all the promises found in Scripture In the Second He labours to answer an Objection drawn from what happened to the Church of Israel heretofore in which we often see the true Worship of God to have been changed and corrupted and both the People and their Guides to have fallen into Idolatry These two Parts Sir we will prosecute in order and by applying our selves to what is most material in them will endeavour by the assistance of God's Grace to make the Truth so evident as shall remove all difficulties The first Part of M. de Condom's discourse examin'd Instead of granting the Ministers says M. de Condom to believe all the Fundamentals of the Faith we shew that there is one Article of the Creed they believe not which is that of the Universal Church 'T is true they say with the mouth I believe the Catholick or Universal Church as the Arrians Macedonians and Socinians say with the mouth I believe in Jesus Christ and in the Holy Ghost But as there is reason to accuse them of not believing these Articles because they believe them not as they ought nor according to their true sense so if we shew the Pretended Reformed that they believe not as they ought the Article of the Catholick Church we may truly say that in effect they reject so important an Article of the Creed You must know then what is meant by this expression The Catholick or Universal Church and upon this I lay for my ground That in the Creed which was only a bare declaration of Faith this Term must be taken in its most proper and most natural signification and such as is most used among Christians Now all Christians by the name of the Church understand a Society making profession to believe the Doctrine of Jesus Christ and govern it self by his Word If this Society makes this Profession 't is consequently visible That this is the proper and genuine signification of the word Church such as is known by every one and used in common discourse I desire no other witnesses than the Pretended Reformed themselves The sequel will declare whether the scandal of dealing with that Article of the Universal Church as the Arrians Macedonians and Socinians do would not better agree with the Character of such as follow M. de Condom's Opinion than the Reformed Ministers This we shall presently be able to judge of and to that purpose four Questions must be examined The first is Whether the sense of that Article in our Creed ought to be restrained according to M. de Condom to the Church here on Earth or extended farther Secondly Whether this be a good and sufficient definition of the Church upon Earth A Society making profession to believe the Doctrine of Jesus Christ and govern it self by his word Thirdly Whether this Church upon Earth be visible or invisible or whether it be both considered in a different sense and different respects Fourthly To what Church the Promises of Jesus Christ do belong whether to that defined by M. de Condom or to that which we are about to define These four Questions will include not only all the plausible things M. de Condom hath said in this first part of his Discourse but likewise all the other sophistical Objections that are usually put to us upon this subject Quest 1. Whether the sense of that Article in our Creed ought to be restrained according to M. de Condom to the Church here on Earth or extended farther In order to resolving the first Question you will please Sir to give me leave to explain briefly that Article of our Creed concerning the Catholick or Universal Church and how we understand it that so you may be able to judge whether M. de Condom had reason to accuse us of not taking it in its true sense And this I shall immediately enter upon We think then this being such a profession of Faith as ought to embrace its object entire and in the utmost extent and not in any one part only that by the Vniversal Church must be understood not barely the visible body or company of the Faithful at present upon Earth but that body or company of all the Faithful which have been are or at any time shall be from the beginning to the end of the World Thus the Universal Church is That which is already
signification When we say in plain terms the Vniversal Church nothing can be more natural than to understand the whole company of Gods children as opposed to the men of the world and children of this generation Nothing more natural to Faith and especially a Confession of Faith than to interpret a term expressing the object of Faith not in a restrained sense which gives only a partial Idea of the thing nor in an ambiguous sense which gives a confused and doubtful one but in a sense that shall be perspicuous and full As to the common use of the word M. de Condom must pardon me if I say there is a fallacy in his argument For supposing it true which really it is not that all Christians of this and some ages last past had confined the term Vniversal Church to the Church at present upon Earth suppose the pretended Reformed to use M. de Condom's own expression did commonly understand this term so yet still 't is a trick to attempt to adjust the sense of the Creed by that which some latter ages have fixt upon it 'T is just as if I should go about to explain the terms of our language by what will be in vogue two or three hundred years hence For who does not see that the acceptation alters and words are mightily removed from their first and genuine signification What I have alledged from St. Austin and the Trent-Catechism plainly convict M. de Condom of a mistake either in matter of fact or point of right If the matter of fact deposited before be true That all Christians understand by the Church a Society making profession c. He is out in point of right for St. Austin and the Trent-Catechism shew that the Church in our Creed is to be otherwise understood But if this Rule hold that the word in the Creed must be taken in such a sence as is most in use among Christians he errs in matter of fact for St. Austin and the Catechism taking it as we see 't is manifest the Christians of their times did not understand it as M. de Condom does of a Society making profession to believe c. It is questionless more reasonable to say that the term Vniversal Church in our Creed should be interpreted in a way most agreeable to Scripture stile but this very thing quite overthrows M. de Condom's pretensions For the Scripture when speaking of the Church as the Creed does with regard to its Universality does always mean the whole body of the Faithful and not one part only Thus St. Paul hath taken it in that excellent passage God hath given Jesus Christ to be the Head of the Church which is his body the fulness of him that filleth all in all In the fifth Chapter of that Epistle he repeats it no less than six times in the same sense The husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the Church The Church is subject to Christ as the wife is to her husband Christ loved the Church and gave himself for it that he might present it to himself a glorious Church not having spot or wrinkle Christ nourisheth and cherisheth the Church This is a great mystery concerning Christ and the Church Thus again Col. 1. Christ is the head of the body the Church who is the beginning the first-born from the dead So lastly Heb. 12. Ye are come to Mount Sion the city of the living God the heavenly Jerusalem and to an innumerable company of Angels to the general assembly and Church of the first-born which are written in Heaven For the Apostle does not mean the Church Triumphant only as M. de Condom would perswade us but the whole body of those whom God hath enrolled in the Book of his Predestination whether already taken up to Glory or such as are already justify'd and sanctified upon Earth but not yet glorify'd or those whom he will call effectually hereafter and justifie in order to their Glorification I conclude this Question with one observation which ought not to give M. de Condom any offence because the greatest demonstration of respect to an adversary is the removing every little objection made by him I observe then that his Argument which contains all this part of his Discourse neither does nor according to the rules of reasoning can conclude any thing at all He would know the meaning of Vniversal Church in our Creed We must take this term says he in the most proper signification and such as is most in use among Christians I grant it Now all Christians as he goes on by the name of Church understand a society c. and for this I desire no other witnesses than the Pretended Reform'd themselves Who does not perceive that this concludes nothing He should have said All Christians understand by the Church Vniversal a society c. and of this I desire no other witnesses c. Thus he should have delivered himself if he would argue regularly All this while M. de Condom's proof all through the sequel of his discourse runs not upon the term in his Proposition The Vniversal Church but on that single term the Church between which there is a wide difference for the Church may well be taken in a sense that the Vniversal Church can by no means admit of Indeed had M. de Condom said All Christians by the Church Vniversal understand a Society making profession c. and of this I desire no other witnesses than the Pretended Reformed themselves we should have answered him That the Pretended Reform'd never understood by the Vniversal Church a Society making profession to believe c. because according to their Tenets the Church Universal rose a great way further than this Society making profession c. So that we should immediately have put a stop to his Argument and he could never have effected what he hoped for from it Quest 2. Whether M. de Condom's be a good and sufficient definition of the Church upon Earth A Society making profession to believe the Doctrine of Jesus Christ and govern it self by his Word By this decision of our first question I think Sir it appears that M. de Condom had no ground for accusing us of taking that Article of our Creed concerning the Vniversal Church in a wrong sense Let us now proceed to the second Enquiry whether M. de Condom have given a good and sufficient definition of the Church upon Earth in calling it A Society making profession to believe the Doctrine of Jesus Christ and govern it self by his Word Now this Question being of such mighty importance that upon the determination oâ— it the whole Controversie betwixt us and the Romaâ—â—â—â—â— touching the Church does entirely depend I was amazed to see 〈◊〉 he did not think fit to clear it either to Mademoiselle de Duras or 〈◊〉 other Proselytes for whom the perusal of this Discourse was 〈◊〉 Methinks when men go
not really esseential parts of the Church in Heaven for to this hour I never heard any such thing maintained XII Those who desire to be informed what the Church and its Unity is need only consider what Jesus Christ says in that admirable Prayer related by St. John Neither pray I for these alone his Apostles but for them also which shall believe on me through their word That they may be one as thou Father art in me and I in thee that they also may be one in us The Glory which thou gavest me I have given them that they may be one even as we are one The Churches Unity is formed after the pattern of that between the Father and the Son This is a kind of resemblance a draught of that which hath some of the strokes though not all the liveliness and perfection It is therefore a Real Internal Unity a Unity not of outward Profession only but in some sort of nature and essence a Unity of Regeneration a Unity of the same Faith and the same Righteousness and to restrain this to a meer External Union such as is common to both good and bad men would not only weaken but utterly evacuate the force of Jesus Christ's expression XIII To all that hath been now alledged might be added almost innumerable passages of the Primitive Fathers who whenever they spoke of the Church in its true and genuine sense did always deliver themselves as we do I will here instance in some of them S. Cypr. in his 55 Ep. hath this passage Lord says St. Peter to whom shall we go thou hast the words of eternal life and we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ the Son of the living God Shewing hereby that such as depart from Christ perish through their own default but the Church which believes in him and constantly perseveres in the Truths she hath received does never depart from him and such as continue in the House of God are his Church Such as want the substance and solidity of good corn and are scattered abroad with the breath of the Enemy like chaff with the wind are not of Gods planting With relation to whom it is that St. John in his Epistle says They went out from us but they were not of us for if they had been of us they would no doubt have continued with us In another place having said before that the water mixt with their winc in the Eucharist represented the people as the wine did the Blood of Christ he adds When therefore the water is mixed with the wine in the Chalice the people are united to Jesus Christ and the company of believers joined to him on whom they believe Now this water and wine are so mixt in the Cup that they cannot be parted any more Whence it follows that nothing can separate between Christ and his Church that is the persons that are in the Church constantly and closely adhering to what they have believed nor break off the inviolable love they bear to one another So that wicked men and Hypocrites are not of the Body of the Church seeing an outward profession is not sufficient to make men such St. Jerom says the very same thing The Church of Christ is a glorious Church having neither spot nor wrinkle nor any such thing He therefore that is a sinner and stained with any pollution cannot be said to be of Christ's Church nor in subjection to Christ It may happen indeed that as the Church which had heretofare its spots and wrinkles was after restored to youth and purity so a sinner may come to the Physician for those that be well need not a Physician but those that be sick and so having his maladies healed be made a member of the Church which is Christs Body St. Ambrose explaining those words of the 36 th Psalm Let not the hand of the ungodly cast me down says As the Saints are members of Jesus Christ so wicked men are members of the Devil Let not the hand of the ungodly remove me that is Let not the actions of Sinners tempt me to depart from the way of righteousness for we are apt to slip when we see the prosperity of Sinners and so the hand of Sinners does in some sort shake and loosen us from the root of vertue If wicked men are members of the Devil there little probability that hypocrisie should be able to make them members of Jesus Christ But of all the Fathers there is not any that treats of this Subject with such exactness and perspicuity as St. Austin does a Man might compile a whole Volume of what he hath written about it This Father explaining that of St. Jehn They went out from us but they were not of us They went out from us says he we lament the loss But hear the comfort they were not of us All Hereticks and Schismaticks go out from us That is depart from the Church but were they truly any of outs they would not have departed They were not therefore out members even before they went out and if so then there are many within who tho they have not yet gone out are Antichrists May we dare to essert this Yes why not Let every man consult his own Conscience to know if he be not Anticrist The meaning of Anticrist is contrary to Christ Whence it is clear that none but Antichrists can go out for such as are not contrary to Christ will by no means do so for they continue in the body and are reckoned among the members of Christ The Members are never contrary to one another The intire composition of a body consuis in having all its members and you know what the Apostle says upon this matual agreement of the Members If one member suffer all the members suffer with it and if one be honoured all shall rejoyce with it Now if all the Members suffer in the grief of one and rejoyce at the honour done to one there is nothing that savours of Antichrist in this mutual agreement Those that are within are the body of our Lord Jesus Christ For this body is still in a state of healing and will never enjoy perfect health and sandness till the resurrection of the dead These Antichrists are in the body of Christ like ill humours the voiding of which eases the body Thus when the wicked go out the Church finds refreshment and when the body throws them out she says these noxious humours are gone out of me but they were no part of me that is they were not cut away from my flesh or substance but opprest my stomach while they lay there They are gone from us then but be not troubled at it they were not ours But how do you prove this St. John says If they had been of us they would have continued with us So that you see many people receive the Sacraments with us which yet are not any part of us
Fountain that is the Church of Christ How shall we reconcile this Doctrine with M. de Condom 's who distinguishes between the Church of Christ and the predestinate as between a whole and it's part who counts the reprobates in too and blames us for restraining the Church to the number of God's Elect alone This being a point of consequence and able to determine all our Controversy concerning the Church I hope it may not be tedious to hear what St. Augustin says further upon it After having recited a passage taken out of â—t Cyprian's Epistle to Magnus he goes on thus The words of blessed Cyprian shew that he rightly understood the beauty of God's House in that he declares and proves both by the testimony of the Prophets and the signification of the Sacraments that this House is composed of men living in Peace and unity of Heart So that those envious uncharitable Wretches were not in this House notwithstanding they were baptised And by consequence Christ's Holy Sacrament may be both administred and received by men not in the Church of Christ because as appears by the Testimony of Cyprian none but the peaceable live in this Church It will not serve the turn to say they might baptize while they were hid they were not hidden from St. Paul when he said in his Epistle he rejoyced that Christ was preached even by such whether in pretence or in truth says he Christ is preached and I therein do rejoyce yea and will rejoyce Upon these considerations I do not think it reshness in me to affirm that some are in the House of God so as that they are themselves the very House that which is said to be built upon a Rock called his Dove his only One his beautiful Spouse without spot or wrinkle the inclosed Garden the sealed Fountain the Well of living Water the Orchard with Pomegranates and which HAth received the Keys the power of binding and loosing this House it is whose corrections if any man contemptuously behave himself against he is ordered to be to us as an Heathen and a Publicar Of this it is said Lord I have loved the Beauty of thy House and the place where thine Honour dwelleth He maketh men of one mind in an house I was glad when they said unto me we will go into the House of the Lord. Blessed are they that dwell in thy House they will be alway praising Thee and a world of such like passages This House is called the good seed bringing forth fruit with patience thirty sixty and a hundred fold This House consists of Vessels of gold and of silver of precious stones and incorruptible wood To this House 't is said Bear up one another in love endeavouring to keep the unity of the spirit in the bond of peace And the Holy Temple of God are ye For this consists of the true Believers and holy Servants of God dispersed throughout the Universe and all knit together in a spiritual Unity by the participation of the same Sacraments whether personally known to one another or not As for the rest they are said to be in the House but it is in such a manner that they belong not at all to the building nor have any part of that fellowship which brings forth the fruit of righteousness and peace They are here as the Chaff is among the Corn for we cannot deny that they be contained in the House because St. Paul says In a great house are vessels not only of gold and silver but also of wood and of earth and some to honour and some to dishonour I cannot imagine how St. Augustin'S sight came to differ so mightily from M. de Condam'S If we believe the latter by the Church must be understood a Society composed of good and bad men for he tells you to such a Society only are those passages of Scripture applicable Vpon this rock will I build my Church Christ loved the Church and gave himself for it that he might make it a glorious Church without spot or wrinkle c. If he refuse to hear the Church let him be unto thee as an Heathen c. Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven c. But if St. Augustin be to be believed we must take the Church in a quite different sense for a Society made up of none but righteous persons and true Believers because to such a one and no other do these passages belong In his Opinion the just alone are the House built upon a Rock the Spouse without spot or wrinkle they only have the keys and power of binding and loosing 't is their censures only that men ought not to despise if they would not be looked upon as Heathens and Publicans M. de Condom deduces his Arguments from these passages St. Augustin deduces his from the very same and yet their Conclusions are opposite to one another All that we have left to do then is either to correct St. Augustin by M. de Condom or M. de Condom by St. Augustin and of the two methinks the latter is the more reasonable Upon this ground then I will once more introduce that Father speaking thus We must not suppose that wicked men belong to Christ's body i. e. the Church because they do partake of the Sacraments corporally The Sacraments themselves are holy in such persons but they do but increase their condemnation because they administer and receive them unworthily Now they are not of that Company of Christ's Church which consists of his Members compacted together by bands and joynts and increaseth with the increase of God For this Church is built on a Rock according to that of our Saviour Vpon this rock will I build my Church But those build on the Sand as the same Saviour said Whoso heareth my Words and doth them not I will comapre him to a foolish man that built his house upon the sand Now lest you should fancy that the Church built upon a Rock is in any one particular place or that it is not extended over the whole Earth observe her complaint in the Psalm From the ends of the Earth have I cryed unto thee when my heart was in heaviness Thou hast set me up upon a rock She cries from the ends of the Earth therefore she is not in Africa and no where else she is set up upon a Rock therefore those must not be esteemed of her who build upon the Sand. There is some probability St. Augustin knew what he said and yet you see a passage of Scripture Ephes 4. abused by M. de Condom in favour of his Church made up of a mixture of good and bad men which this Father explains of the Church of the Just only as well as that other of St. Matt. 16. Vpon this Rock will I build my Church He teaches the same Doctrine in his Book concerning the Unity
these ruins Qu. 3. Whether the Church upon Earth be visible or invisible or whether both together considered in a different sense and under different respects Thus much I think Sir may suffice to give a resolution of the second question which was whether the Bishop of Condom's definition of the Church upon Earth was a good and sufficient definition viz. A Society making profession to believe the Doctrine of Jesus Christ and govern it self by his word or whether it was defective and required something else to be added to it You see the necessity of handling this subject with some exactness for it being our business to know what Society we must be of to obtain Salvation and both sides agreeing that it is the true Church being it concerns us to know to what Society the Promises of Jesus Christ are to be applied and both sides agreeing that it is the true Church The first thing in reason to be done is to form an abstracted Idea of the true Church before it be applied to any particular subject that so this may serve for a Rule and direct us to know at least what that true Church is which we enquire after We know in general that there is one true Church we know also that this Church is a Religious Society but when we come to define it particularly every one knows his own method of doing it This therefore is the first thing to be determined not only to avoid equivocation but to prevent a continual deviation which may otherwise happen through the whole dispute by means of a mistake in the beginning and this having given occasion to the second question the dispatching that already will mightily facilitate our enquiry into the third The thing then to be examined is whether the Society of true believers who only are the Church be visible or invisible or whether both in some senses and respects For the resolution of this Query I shall not say that this true Church being a Society of men and so a body that hath its external order as all other Societies have hath likewise consequent to that a visibility common to it with all other bodies Thus much is necessarily supposed for the Believers are not Angels nor invisible Spirits but in this respect like the rest of mankind But this visibility being supposed we must further enquire Whether there be not yet another which gives it the Character of Jesus Christ's true Church so that a man may say That the body we see and which is the object of our senses as the true Church of Christ In this there would not be the least difficulty had not God's design as to his Church been disturbed by the enemy of our Salvation For since God calls true Believers only and since as we have already shewn such alone constitute the Church were it not for what happens from some other thing there would not be among the outward Professors of Christianity either Hypocrites or Hereticks or Superstitious or worldly or profane persons And thus none but such as are truly the faithful being to be found among them this outward profession would be a sure means and an univocal Character to know the true Faith and Regeneration by and consequently to know the true Church of Jesus Christ as such So that we need say only thus much That although the Church were not immediately visible by its inward and cssential form because none can immediately see mens hearts but God only yet it would be visible by its external form as by a sure distinguishing Character For it might be seen by its Ministery and profession of Faith in Christ and known to such a degree that a man might infallibly and positively say That is the Church But we all know that is Jesus Christ sowed his good seed in the field of the world so to use the expressions in the Parable the enemy hath likewise sown Tares That is that with the true Believers are intermixt vast numbers of men who 〈◊〉 no more than the appearance and outside of Christianity and so make the outward profession to be a note subject to mighty uncertainties and equivocation This God hath permitted for reasons known to his own wisdom and hence have risen on one side false Churches and on the other false members of the true I mean whole Communities who have wrongfully assumed to themselves the title of a Church and single persons who wrongfully assumed the title of the Faithful So that the Church now like all other things liable to hypocrisy and dissimulation cannot be truly known without much difficulty And whereas according to the nature of the thing the Churches visibility and invisibility ought to lye here that its essential and internal from cannot be seen immediately and of it self but may by the mediation of its external form instead of this they do now consist further in a discerning between true and false a distinguishing betwixt that which is real and sincere and that which is counterfeit We must therefore examine how this distinction is to be made because in it consists the visibility or invisibility of the true Church Whether we must make it between several external bodies differing from one another or between several persons externally incorporated into the same Body I bâ—gin with the former and affirm that the discerning between several bodies depends upon some certain marks or characters whereby that body on whose side the true Church is may be distinguished from another where it is not I shall not now shew what those Characters are for this is another dispute between the Church of Rome and us which we need not here engage our selves in It is enough we are all agreed that such marks there are and that by them this distinction must be made That which most concerns us to take notice of and which I desire you would observe with a very particular attention is that after we have found this Body or external Society on whose side the true Church is we may and in reality do form to our selves two notions of it one proceeding from a mere Judgment of Charity the other from a Judgment of Reflection By the Judgment of Charity we look upon all within the Body to be true Believers indifferently For the searching of hearts being not in our power but peculiar to God Charity makes no distinctions but supposes that things are in truth what they should be and upon this supposition we call all that society the visible Church speaking simply and absolutely By the Judgment of Reflection having consulted the Rules of Scripture and the light of Experience we come to know that there are Tares mixed with the Wheat and that it is past a doubt that among these outward Professours are abundance of hypocritical superstitious ambitious and prophane people Hence we correct our first notion and term this Society a visible mixt Church Thus in the same external body we distinguish two different Bodies one of true
Believers which we look upon as the true Church of Jesus Christ the other of hypocrites and worldlings who have only the shadow and shell of Faith and Regeneration and consequently do not belong to Jesus Christ's true Church This is the original of all that ambiguity betwixt the Romanists and us M. de Condom according to the principles of Cardinal Bellarmin and Perron and most of the Doctors of his Communion does in this Dispute judge of the true visible Church by that notion of Charity which without making any difference includes bad and good true and false Believers And we judge of the true visible Church by that other termed the notion of Reflection which excludes hypocrites and worldlings and confines it self to true Believers only He supposes without offering any proof for it that there is no other visible Church than this whole Body of Professors and that That of the true Believers is invisible which we deny He proves that the true Church of Christ to whom the promises belong is a visible Church which we grant We must take leave therefore to tell him that he supposes what he should prove and proves what he ought to suppose which must needs entangle the matter in dispute and render it mighty intricate and obscure But what great matter is it you 'l say as to this Dispute whether a man judges of the true visible Church by the notion of Charity or that of Reflection I answer if the matter had concerned only the Duties incumbent on the Church or exhorting and instructing men in those Duties it would signify very little which of these two notions we followed For the duties incumbent on beth good and had are much the same they all hear the same Word partake of the same Sacraments and are all under the same Obligations But the present controversy does not concern the duties and exhortations to them but the investing the Church in some particular rights and priviledges allowed her and applying to her the promises of Jesus Christ So that it highly concerns us in this case not to follow a notion which may lead us into mistakes and give away these priviledges and promises to men that have no manner of right to them It nearly concerns us not to follow a notion which may occasion our falling into errour under pretence of that name the Church There is an absolute necessity of clearing an ambiguity which if not cleared may prejudice our Conscience and put our Salvation upon a hazard Now Sir let us see I beseech you whether of these two notions is rather to be received in this dispute And this will easily appear if we consider That the notion followed by M. de Condom is grosly false in one of its parts as taking for true Believers persons who really are not so and can pretend to truth no further than as it is conformable to this second notion That it is not grounded upon an exact knowledg of its object but merely upon a charitable supposition which if niecly look'd into is not true it self And so there can be no robable argument for allowing evil men and hypocrites a part in Christ's Promises Those false plants which our heavenly father hath not planted Those tares which the Lord hath not sown in his field but the enemy râ—se by night to cast in privily Men not at all concerned in that Idea of the true Church which Scripture gives us and consequently not of it In a word this will easily appear that the notion we follow is the most exact the most certain the most agreeable to the Idea's given in Scripture and the only one that can bear any proportion to the Promises of Jesus Christ and the dignity of the true Church But it may be said Was not M. de Condom in the right to say there was not actually any visible Church but that which he defâ—â—es A Society making profession to believe the Doctrine of Jesus Christ and govern it self by his word And so no other than that which comprehends good and bad true Believers and Hypocrites And was it not fair then to make use of this notion in the Controversy I answer the true Church consisting of true Believers only is not indeed visible by any certain and distinct sight we can have of it so as to affirm positively and personally such or such are of the true Church When we would carry on this distinction to particular men disguise and hypocrisie put a stop to it so that in this sence the true Church will always continue invisible till Jesus Christ come to make a full and perfect separation betwixt his own Corn and the Enemies Tares which shall not be done till the end of the World Thus it is not visible not only immediately by its internal form in mens hearts but even by these external Characters as to certain and distinct visibility because dissimulation and deceit often makes these marks to be doubtful All this I grant But for all this we may and must say that the true Church is visible truly visible in other senses and respects For first of all it cannot be denied that it is visible at least materially as they say because the true Believers that appear visibly in publick Assemblies partake of the same Sacraments and live in the same external Order The faithful do not conceal themselves nor decline the Holy Exercises of Religion but on the contrary frequent them and shew themselves more than other men remembring that of St. Paul Not forsaking the assembling of our selves together Besides It is plain that tho the true Church be mixt with wicked men in the same profession yet is it visible in this very mixture as the wheat is visible tho in the same field with the tares and the good fish in the same net with the bad according to the parables in the Gospel or as true Friends are visible tho mixt with dissemblers and flatterers This mixture indeed hinders us from an exact distinction of persons but still we may with great certainty distinguish and discern two sorts of persons We are not sure which particular men are true Believers and which Hypocrites but we are sure that there are true Belivers as well as Hypocrites and this is enough to prove the Church visible according to the Scriptures and t. Austin's Hypothesis Nay I will go further yet for 't is true that upon some occasions Hypocrites do plainly distinguish themselves from true Believers and upon some other occasions true Believers do plainly make a personal distinction of themselves from Hypocrites For instance when we see men drowned in vices inconsistent with true Faith when we see them throw themselves into Superstitions and Errors that are contrary to the true Doctrine and Worship of God tho they abide still in the same Congregations with others and communicate in the same Sacraments yet this makes a negative distinction so as we may say these are not the true
Jesus Christ says of such Many will say unto me in that day Lord have not we prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out Devils and in thy name have done many wonderful works Then will I say unto them I never knew you depart from me ye workers of iniquity And can any man after all this allow them a propriety in the Promises of Christ The second passage M. de Condom makes use of is that of Jesus Christ which I will here set down at length Tell the Church but if he neglect to hear the Church let him be unto thee as a heathen man and a Publican verily I say unto you whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven Again I say unto you that if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask it shall be done for them of my father which is in heaven For where two or three are gathered together in my name there am I in the midst of them Jesus Christ M. de Condom says used the word Church to signify this visible Society I agree with him that the Church there signifies a visible Church I say further that it signifies a Church represented by the Pastors by whom it binds and looses by whom it asks the Father I am still of opinion that those excellent Promises of Jesus Christ that God will ratify what they have bound and loosed that he will grant what they ask and that the Lord himself will be in the midst of them are all made to the Church taken in this sense But then I say withal that this visible Church is that of the true Believers only and that Hypocrites have no share at all in it It is to the true Believers alone that this Ministry belongs they are the persons represented by the Pastors they the only people that ask and obtain that are gathered together in Christ's name and in the midst of whem he is And yet it often happens that the Ministers of this Church tho they be in this function and do the business of it are not yet true Members of it themselves It often falls out says St. Augustin by reason of this mixture here upon Earth that people really belonging to Babylon administer the things belonging to Jerusalem All they of whom it is said whatsoever they bid you observe obesereveand do Matt. 23. 3. but do not ye after their works are Citizens of Babylon that rule the Commonwealth of Jerusalem For if they had no charge belonging to Jerusalem why should it be said They sit in Moses seat therefore what they bid you observe that observe and do Again if they were true Citizens of Jerusalem who should reign with Christ for ever What occasion was there for adding But do not ye after their works It is not then to the Ministers that the Promises belong but to the Body they represent and whose Offices they discharge Now this body is the New Jerusalem which shall reign with Christ for ever That is the true Believers M. de Cendom's third passage is this Thou art Peter and upon this rock will I build my Church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it Jesus Christ says he would shew something illustrious and clear when he said that his Church maugre the opposition of Hell should be always invincible he would I say shew something clear and resplendent which might serve in all Ages for a sensible and palpable assurance of the immutable certainty of his Promises He adds The Church of which Christ speaks is then a confessing Church a Church that publishes the Faith and consequently an exteriour and visible Church He says further That it is a Church to which an exteriour Ministry is given for 't is added I will give unto thee the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven and whatsoever thou shalt bind on Earth shall be bound in Heaven and whatsoever thou shalt loose on Earth shall be loosed in Heaven I answer The Church spoken of in this passage is really a Confessing Church a Church that publishes the Faith a Church to whom Christ hath given an exteriour Ministry a Church that uses the Ministry of the Keys that binds and looses and by Consequence an exteriour and visible Church The Question is whether wicked men let them dissemble never so well and carry never so fair an outside do truly belong to this Church or whether it consist of sincere Believers only 'T is a Church exteriour and visible I acknowledg it but it is also a Church interiour and real otherwise it would differ nothing from a Phantome a cheating apparition 'T is a Confessing Church and publishes the Faith but it is likewise a Church believing in what it confesses and publishes 'T is a Church to which not only St. Peter's Confession must be attributed but also the principle and ground of that Confession Blessed art thou Simon Bar-jona for flesh and blood hath net revealed this unto thee but my Father which is in Heaven And therefore whose Confession proceeds not from Flesh and Blood but from Grace and Divine Illumination 'T is a Church built upon a Rock and not upon the Sand therefore not a Church that Hypocrites are of 'T is a Church built by Jesus Christ a Church therefore of true Believers only because such only are built by Christ 'T is a Church to which this Promise of the Gates of Hell never prevailing against it belongs And can we with any pretence to modesty say that the Gates of Hell do not prevail against the wicked ingulfed in vâ—ce Can we say those admirable words carry no stronger importance than the preservation of a mere exteriour profession But this is a Chruch which hath and exerciseth such a Ministry Who questions it But does this Ministry belong to the wicked and hypocrites No. It belongs only to true Behevers the rest have no part in it only as they sometimes exercise the external Offices without any true right to them or receive them unworthily under the covering of hypocrisy and being intermixt with good Christians But M. de Condom says further Jesus Christ promised something illustrious and clear which might serve in all Ages for a sensible and palpable assurance of the immutable certainty of his Promises These words want a little unfolding If they understand hereby a temporal prosperity a perpetual visibility promised to the Church in pomp and lustre I deny that Christ promised any such thing If they understand an Earthly Dominion a worldly Greatness under the title of Hierarchy I deny still that Christ ever promised any such thing If they understand a constant unblemisht purity in the Ministry in the Matters of Doctrine and Worship of moral Rules and orderly Government This again I deny that Christ ever promised If they understand Believers perseverance in Faith and Holiness so far forth as
to receive implicitely whatever is delivered to them by their Ministry But reject this principle and there is no reason why the Faithful may not separate the good from the bad and why they may not subsist under such a Ministry by the help of that distinction which the Grace of God enables them to make And here Sir allow me to wonder a little at the pleasant double which the Doctors of the Romish Communion make when they dispute Our first and main question is whether we ought to acquiesce in the Council of Trent's Determinations Yes say they you must yield an implicit obedience to the Decrees of the Prelates assembled in a Body But why an Implicit Obedience Because say they the Church cannot subsist without it But why cannot it subsist without it Cannot it subsist by resuming the Ministry out of such hands and putting it into better Cannot it without going so far subsist by separating between good and bad food No they tell you it cannot because it is obliged to receive implicitely whatever the Prelates in a Body shall deliver What way of disputing call you this if it be not quite to swerve from good sense and reason and to be lost in an impertinent maze For is not this a perfect round first to prove an Implicite Obedience because the Church cannot otherwise subsist and then to prove the Church cannot otherwise subsist without this Obedience because men ought to obey implicitely VI. But let us proceed in drawing our Consequences And being we hit upon the point of the Implicit Obedience they exact to the decisions of Bishops and that Sovereign and Absolute Authority wherewith they would invest them let us try if this can agree with the Principles we have establish'd I meddle not now with those other reasons that might be made use of you will find them in part in the Book I quoted just now All I shall say is that since no man can have a distinct knowledg of the True Believers and that the True Church consists of such alone no man consequently can be secure that this Body of Prelates whether considered single or whether as convened in a Council are the true Church Yes but says one they represent the true Church I agree with you so far as the True Believers are still under their Ministry But representing the True Church does not presently endue them with its Opinions and Affections The true Church in conferring her Ministry upon men does not confer upon them withal either true Faith or true Regeneration much less perfect Infallibility Hence whatever determinations they give are still subject to an examination If these prove confermable to God's Word it is our duty not only to embrace them but further to respect â—he Body of Ministers as the true Church Representative because they have exprest her sense and Charity will carry us still further and incline us to esteem them true Believers because they have acted as such But when their divisions are found to disagree with God's Word we are to look upon them as men that have abused their ministry If this happen in things not plainly interesting the Conscience their ministry must be born with and the liberty of separating the clean from the unclean natural to every Believer made use of If they do interest the Conscience we groan under their ministry we pray to God we implore succors from above still using the Liberty of Conscience to refuse the Evil and retain the Good But if this Body of Prelates-proceed to violent taking away this necessary and indispensable Liberty of Conscience and reduce the faithful to this hard streight either to be damned for false Doctrine in slavishly following their Ministers errors or damn'd for dissimulation in pretending to follow them Then the true Believers ought to look upon them as men that have stript themselves of the right of the Ministry to oppose them to take it from them and repose the trust in other hands It is evident then the supreme Authority we contend about cannot take place because it is continually in danger of being invested in worldly men to whom it cannot in any case belong And so we should be continually in danger of mistaking That for the Church Representative which neither is really nor can possibly be so VII The seventh Use to be made of what we have advanced is the right apprehending of some expressions used by us viz. That the Church is corrupted that the state of the Church hath been interrupted and the like so as to reconcile these with Jesus Christ's Promises which import not only the perpetual existence but also the perpetual holiness and incorruption of the Church Now for that corruption attributed by us to the Church I say that whereas the Promises of Christ concern the true Church that is True Believers only our expression on the contrary respects the Church according to that Idea of Charity we form of it including all external Professors which are ordinarily call'd the Visible Church 'T is of the Church taken in this last notion that we say she is corrupted for the whole Body being made up as we have seen of good and bad man it hath come to pass that the wicked are mightily increased and the spirit of the World which is a spirit of error and superstition shewed it self in an eminent manner But we do not understand true Believers to be corrupted only so far forth as they may possibly have contracted some tincture of infirmity by conversing with the others And for that interruption of the state of the Church mentioned in our Confession of Faith where we say That the state of the Church being interrupted it was necessary it should be raised up again out of its ruines and desolation The meaning of those expressions is not what M. de Condom pretends that the true Church ceases to exist or that its Ministry was quite extinct in those times which we call times of desolation and ruine for we make a distinction between the Church and the state of the Church The Church is the true Believers making profession of Truth and Christian Piety and a real Holiness under a Ministry which dispenses all nourishment necessary for spiritual life without keeping back any It s natural and proper state is to be freed as much as its militant condition can admit from the impure mixture of prophane worldly men not to be covered over and as it were swallowed up with this Chaff and Tares to have a pure Ministry not incumbred with errors with false worship superstitious customs a Ministry in the hands of good men who are in possession of it by honest methods and set a good example to others This State is what we think hath been interrupted having seen strange opinions brought into Religion Superstitious propagated the Ministry invaded by men neither deserving nor capable of it and that were advanced by scandalous and unlawful methods having seen vices openly predominant among
perswasion of Charity and Equity for we ought always to presume the best of such Assemblies and hope that God will preside over them and that they will acquit themselves of their duty till experience shews the contrary But all this does not imply so entire a submission as for a Man to deprive himself of all right to examine their Resolutions As to that Act which condemns the Independents it is said he extreamly Just For tho Assemblies do not arrive at an Infallibility yet are not they presently to be utterly abolished 'T is a human Order indeed but yet such an Order as God himself hath settled for the preservation of his Church and to desert it therefore is criminal And yet we do not think it follows from hence that the determinations of the Assemblies exact a blind and implicit Obedience nor that the Synod of Charenton intended any such thing And then for the Synod at Saintefoy's deputing four persons to confer with those of the Ausburg Confession and the full power given them you can make no advantage of it For those Deputies were in the nature of Ambassadors who are sent by the King with full Commission to offer Proposals hold Treaties and agree upon Conclusions or as Plenipotentiaries sent to negotiate a Peace Let their power be never so full or call them Plenipotentiaries as long as you please still this condition is constantly and naturally understood that they do nothing against the interest of the persons that commissioned them and to these their Acts must of necessity return for the obtaining their approbation and ratification without which their Treatings would signify nothing at all And this was the meaning of that full power conferr'd by the Synod upon their Deputies to hear those of the Confession of Ausburg to hearken to their Proposals their Complaints their Offers and in return to make others to them to receive from them Explications of difficulties in Controversy and to give them back theirs nay to come to an agreement with them if they could yet not so as either to become absolute Masters of their Faith or blindly receive whatever they should agree upon For in all affairs of this kind there is naturally implied a Clause of recurring to the Judgment of the persons Commissioning and a necessity of their ratifying them Mr. Claude added besides this Consideration Suppose the true sense of an Act of the Church of Rome were called in Question a Canon of the Council of Trent for instance M. de Condom would think it more reasonable that the sence should be taken from him than Mr. Claude because the Question is put concerning the sense of a Church that M. de Condom is a Member of and therefore in all probability he must understand it better than one of another Church Therefore Sir said he I expect the same Justice from you in taking the sense of these Acts now in Dispute from me provided the sense I put upon them do not disagree with the Doctors of my Communion or be not manifestly false and contradictory to the rest of our Principles Now if the sense I put upon these Acts be not any of these you have not in my opinion any right to refuse it or to frame to your self any other different from it M. de Condom replied saying that he would begin where Mr. Claude left off because that what he had urged just before carried some appearance of Truth and made a quick impression upon the mind but had not really any thing of solid Argument in it That were the matter in hand any Explication of their particular Rites and Ceremonies in Preaching the Word and Administring the Sacraments what Mr. Claude said might be allowed for Truth and in that point he would believe him as a person better acquainted with the matter Nay that he did not go about to debar him the liberty of explaining the sense of those that compiled the Discipline and the forementioned Acts after his own way That he was sensible they denied an entire submission to the Church and such as precludes all Examination But this he would say that the very men who denied this absolute submission in Speculation were forced to own and establish it in their practice That so they contradicted themselves and that this was the thing he pretended to prove and in which he was by no means bound to believe Mr. Claude For if the matter in hand now were to demonstrate any Contradictions in the opinions of the Catholick Church he would not desire that His Explications might be thought of Authority sufficient nor deny Mr. Claude the freedom of making what inferences he thought fit from the Council's own words M. de Condom stopping there Mr. Claude replied That since it was evident that the persons who made those Acts denied any submission was due to the determinations of Church-Assemblies without any Examination at all the advantage was thus far at least on his side that M. de Condom himself had acknowledged His Explanation of those Acts was agreeable with the Principles of the Protestants which made them so that there was more reason for his accepting that sense than for the framing to himself another and such a one as contradicted these Principles That supposing the business in Controversy to be an Act of the Romish Church he should not scruple to admit M. de Condom's explanation provided the words of the Act did not oppose it and in that case he might be allowed to infer a Contradiction That if M. de Condom would proceed thus as to the Acts before urged he should be glad to see what grounds he had for this pretended Contradiction M. de Condom said this would easily be made appear That he would show this Contradiction with relation to their Discipline which on one side ordains That differences in Doctrine should be decided in the Consistory by the Word of God that it was also her meaning that this decision was made by the Word of God in the Provincial Synod as well as the National and yet on the other side if men do not acquiesce in the determination of a Consistory or a Provincial Synod it orders things should continue as they were till a National one be convened in which it says a full and final resolution shall be given by the Word of God and if they submit not to this they shall be cut off from the Church Whence it is evident that the submission required to a National Synod was not founded on the Word of God considered abstractedly as such because both Consistory and Provincial Synod were supposed to determine by the Word of God and yet an Appeal from them was allow'd But that it was founded on the Word of God so far forth as That was explained and interpreted by the last judgment of the Church that is because this is the last and final resolution and consequently upon the Authority of the Assembly considered by it self Now this said he
grounds for upbraiding them with it as they did That the Protestants principles were not liable to the same objection who though they disown a blind obedience and entire submission do yet retain such external means as are most proper and expedient for preserving the unity of the Faith And whereas M. de Condom pretended that without entire obedience it was possible that as many several Religions might start up as there are Parishes 't is confest this may come to pass if we speak with respect to men only notwithstanding the Order and Ecclesiastical Assemblies be kept up because the mind of man is of its self subject to infinite Errors But in respect of God this cannot fall out so for he by his blessing on this external Order and the Communication of one and the same spirit to his true Believers and Elect does by this sure and infallible means preserve them in the unity of the same Faith and consequently of the same Church That Faith being not an humane but a Divine thing none but God alone can either produce or preserve it in mens hearts And this he infallibly does in the hearts of his Elect by his Spirit and such external means of the Ministry as himself hath appointed For Paul planteth and Apollo watereth but God giveth the increase Next he came to speak of the Deputies nominated by the Synod of Sainte-foy to confer with the Lutherans and said That he was extreamly pleased with what M. de Condom had confest even now That they never intended to give them a power of turning all things topsy turvey as he had ingeniously exprest it but that recourse must be had to the persons commissioning and their ratification obtained That he very humbly thankt him for this sincere acknowledgment which as to this particular resolved the whole Question so that this Act could not now be alledged any more for the blind obedience pretended to be infer'd from it That besides this his accusation against the Synod for consenting to change their Confession of Faith if taken in M. de Condom's sense vanished into nothing For there ought a distinction to be made between what is essential in it and what is not The essential part of the Confession consists in the things themselves called Articles or points of Faith and that which is not essential consists in the terms and modes of expression That the Synod had Authority to consent that the expressions in the Confession should be altered that other things might be inserted which might illustrate and explain it if this appeared to be useful for the reducing men that had deviated from it But the Synod never took upon them to alter any essential part of the Confession for it continues in this respect unalterable so far forth as it is agreable to the Word of God Mr. Claude concluding his discourse M. de Condom replied in the first place that notwithstanding what Mr. Claude said a little before concerning the Order observed by the Discipline it did however enjoyn that such as refused to acquiesce in the decisions of a National Synod should be cut off from the Church and that the Synod of Dort had actually cut off the Arminians he desired therefore to know of Mr Claude whether they were justly and lawfully cut off Mr. Claude answered that in his opinion the Synod of Dorts proceedings were very just M. de Condom told him This was all the Church of Rome desired that she also acknowledged her self under an Obligation to judg according to the word of God but this was not the matter in dispute The main business was about the Sense and Explanation of that word and that it was the Churches Province to give this Explanation and private men's to rest satified with it and if they did not the Church dealt justly in excommunicating them That it was thus the Protestants had been excommunicated in the Council of Trent As concerning the Letter of Mission to the National Synods is it not said he a plain trick to swear Submission to them upon supposal or condition that their Determinations shall be agreeable to Gods word This is all mere trifling What say you to it Sir Mr. Claude said there was no trick at all and he could discover nothing that was irregular in it If I have a right notion of your Doctrine replied M. de Condom you hold that a private Persons may doubt of the Judgment of the Church even when given in its last and highest Court of Jurisdiction We do hold said Mr. Claude that no man can have an absolute certainty of Faith that an Ecclesiastical Assembly shall give right Determinations and upon this account that men may be allow'd to doubt But withal that men should notwithstanding presume in favour of such an Assembly and in this respect we cannot properly call it doubting as hoping and believing that it will judg a right For Jesus Christ hath promised all that seek shall find and we ought to take it for granted that they will discharge their duty in seeking aright till Experience shews the contrary There is therefore an assurance of Charity and Equity that in some Sense excludes doubt But when we see Assemblies governed by Factions Cabals and temporal Interests then sure we have a great deal of reason to doubt as seeing men that have forsaken their Duty and consequently are such as cannot hope for any advantage from the blessing of God upon them Let me beg of you Sir said M. de Condom then That we may let alone what is good for nothing but to cast dust in our Eyes What you said just now of Cabals and Factions and private Interests is of no use in the World and only serves to perplex the matter I would know of you put the case there appeared nothing at all of Factions Cabals nor Interest in an Assembly but that all their proceedings were orderly and regular whether its Decisions ought to be received without examining them No Sir said Mr. Claude Why then Sir said he I was in the right to tell you that all your talk of Factions and Cabals signifies nothing That does not follow neither repli'd Mr. Claude for notwithstanding there appear not any thing to weaken a mans Presumptions that the Assembly will discharge their duty faithfully and that for ought we can discover to the contrary all things are carried regularly yet still this is no more than a humane Presumption not able to give any certainty of belief and consequently not precluding our Examination But when we see Disorder and Corruption manifestly prevail in an Assembly we can no longer presume in favour of such a one and instead of hoping the best we must fear the worst that can come from it So that it is not without ground that I spoke of Cabals and Factions Here M. de Condom resuming the former method of his Discourse said It was false that the Independents did absolutely throw off all Ecclesiastical Assemblies for