found in the Words of Scripture as well as in all others For certainly to forfeit our Reason is a very preposterous kind of respect Now as far as I am acquainted vvith Controversie I conceive that when we deny it to be the Judge or Rule of Controversie we mean the Words abstracting from the Sence and when you affirm it is you mean the Sence abstracting from the Words For methinks you should not hold your selves or pretend to perswade us that material Sounds or stroaks of the Air or Lines drawn by a Pen are that very Word of God to which so much Respect is due especially when after so long a course of time vve have not the Original Words neither at least that vve know to be such vvhich the first Pen-men us'd but Translation upon Translation and such variety of Copies that there is no small difficulty in the choice Pray enquire and satisfie your self vvhether this be not the truth of the business for if it be I see not that you give more to the Words than vve and that vve give as much to the Sence as you For nothing can be plainer than that this Position The Sence is the Rule is no contradiction to ours The Words are not the Rule vvhich two are so far from irreconcileable that they have no opposition and may for ought appears in the Terms be both true The Terms in vvhich the Controversie is stated Scripture is Scripture is not the Rule are indeed contradictory but what we mean by these Terms has no opposition For you mean that the Truth contain'd in Scripture is without exception to be indisputably believ'd by all so that no Authority whatever it be on Earth whether Pope or Church can pretend any way to be exempted from entire submission to it and this no Catholic denies We mean the Words of Scripture because we see them daily wrested to several Sences are not alone able to give us certainty which the true Sence is And this I conceive no Protestant bound to affirm For you consult the Fathers in difficulties where you are unsatisfi'd and by their Authority either find or justifie the Sence in which you understand the Words Wherefore 't is very evident that we deny not what you affirm and you affirm not what we deny and that our only contradiction in this Point is the Contradiction of Words which we both so understand that there is no contradiction in what we mean by them For you say We must believe what Scripture saies and we say so too We say we cannot sufficiently know by the bare Words alone what Scripture saies and we must believe and you I think say not the contrary Rule then with you signifies Rule of Belief or that which is to be believed with us the Means by which we must know what we are to believe Which two are as different as may be yet both being confounded in the same word Rule make a shift with the assistance of the peevish animosity and stiff crosness of our unhappy times to keep us still at odds and expose us to the reproach of being disrespectful to Scripture for denying it to be the Judge or Rule of Controversie when all the while we agree to what you mean by Judge of Controversie Heu quantum est in rebus inane In short give us the true Sence of Scripture and if we submit not to it with all the ready Obedience due to it you shall not need to condemn us Our public Professions besides the self conviction of Conscience will condemn us to your hands but if we refuse to accept for Gods Word a wrong Sence of those words in which 't is exprest I think we shew more respect to the Word by desiring a true one than those who would impose a false one For 't is only the True sence which is indeed Gods Word and there is nothing farther from respect to it than to accept a False one instead of it Pray when a Presbyterian Interprets Scripture to the destruction of Episcopacy or an Arian to the overthrow of Christ's Deity or a Socinian of the Trinity Are you disrespectful to Scripture for rejecting their Interpretations or they for making them This we take to be the Case betwixt you and us and that you offer us wrong Sences of Scripture and then blame us for want of Respect to Scripture for not accepting them Whereof whatever be the truth which I will not meddle with this is plain that we do no more to you than you to Sectaries and therefore cannot be thought to have less respect for Scripture than your selves I have read somewhere and I cannot but think it true that for all these scandalous imputations there are none who shew that true respect to Scripture which Catholics do For besides the Reverence we bear to the Sence we have also an Authentic Copy of the words to which we tye our selves and cannot refuse in Dâ—sputation whereas others take the liberty to fly from one Copy and one Language to another as best serves their turn which a body would think were a proceeding savour'd more of a desire to justifie themselves than Reverence to those Sacred Oracles The truth is the Controversie betwixt us concerning Scripture is not about the Word of God in which we both agree but of the Means to know it and that plainly shews the true Word of God is submitted to of all hands For otherwise vve need not much trouble our selves to find it out or care what it said if vve did not acknowledge it obliged us to Belief And since you will not I presume say that a wrong Sence of the material vvords is the true Word of God or Divinely inspir'd all this hideous contempt vvherewith vve are reproacht amounts to no more than that we will not vvilfully contradict our eye-sight but think the vvords both may and are too often wrested to vvrong meanings that is that the Material vvords are not vvhat they signifie vvhich is just to say A man must needs despise the Grape if he think the Bush is not the Wine 'T is strange an Objection of so little substance should be or so obstinately prest or so universally entertain'd You too talk gravely for Company and admonish us of refusing a Judge to vvhom vve must one day submit our selves vvether vve vvill or no as if true desire to know his Sentence and true submission to it vvhen vve do know it vvere to refuse it I do not know vve refuse any thing of Scripture but your Interpretation vvhere vve think you are in the vvrong and I trust you vvill not say your Interpretation is the Judge vvho at the last day shall sit upon the quick and the dead But the Spirit of God is Gods best Interpreter say you and since that is to be had in Books Divinely inspir'd we should seek no farther How prettily does this sound and yet hovv little does it signifie To have the Spirit vvhich is in those
Emperour receive Baptism from the Bishop the Sacraments Penance desire their Prayers their Benediction lastly you administer humane he dispenses divine things to you Greg. the 2d Ep. 13. to the Emperour Leo As the Bishop has no power to look into the Palace and meddle with regal dignity dignitates regales deferendi so neither has the Emperour to look into the Church c. Bishops are therefore set over Churches abstaining from the business of the Comwonwealth that Princes in like manner may abstain from Ecclesiastical matters Leo 4. 2. q. 7. c. Nos si incompetenter It is to be noted that there are two Persons by which the World is governed the Royal and the Sacerdotal As Kings preside in the affairs of the World so Priests in what belongs to God It belongs to Kings to inflict corporal to Priests to inflict spiritual punishment He Judex carries the Sword for punishment of the bad and praise of the good these Preists have the Keys to exclude the excommunicate and reconcile the penitent Nicolas 3d. C. Inter haec 32. q. 2. The holy Church of God is not govern'd by worldly Laws she has no Sword but the Spiritual with which she doth not kill but quicken Adrian the first in the Council of Franckfort seems to me with one little word to explain very well the Commission given to St. Peter Peter sayd he in reward of his confession was made Porter of Heaven and had power to bind and loose so much we already know 't is recorded in Scripture but what was it he could bind and loose Souls says the Pope These Popes understood and us'd their power as well as most of their Successours and they knew nothing of Temporal power but confin'd what was given them to spiritual and divine things and care of the Soul And that this too is the sense of the Church I think will appear by the Prayer us'd on the Feast of St. Peters Chair which antiently ran thus O God who by giving the Keys of Heaven hast deliver'd to Peter the Pontifical dignity of binding and loosing Souls This last word Souls is left out of the latter Editions I suppose to render the Prayer more conformable to the expressions of Scripture and peradventure to keep more close to antiquity of which they are very tenacious at Rome for Platina in the Life of Leo 4th delivers the rude draught of this Prayer whence 't is likely the Prayer was taken without that word But the meaning with the word and without is the same Words may alter but the Churches sense alters not But let us hear some other of the Fathers Hosius Bishop of Corduba who presided in the Council of Nice and was counted in his time the Father of Bishops writes thus to the Emperour Constantius God has committed the Empire to you Vid. Athan. Ep. ad Solicitarios and entrusted us with what belongs to the Church And as he who looks upon your Empire with envious Eyes contradicts the divine Ordination so do you take heed that by drawing affairs of the Church to you you incur a great crime It is written give what is Caesars to Caesar and what is Gods to God Wherefore neither is it lawful for us to take an Empire on Earth neither does the Power of Sacrifices and holy things belong to you S. Jo. Chrysost hom 4. in verb. Isaiae Bodies are committed to Kings Souls to Priests He has material those spiritual Arms. S. Hierom. in cap. 16. Mat. The Spiritual Key extends not it self to Temporals without Arrogance Theophylac upon John 21. Our Lord makes Peter not a Prince not a King but commands him to be a Pastour Feed says he not Kill c. S. Anselm upon Mat. 26. There are secular Officers by whom Temporal things and Spiritual Officers by whom Spiritual things are managed Wherefore the material Sword is given to carnal and the Spiritual to Spiritual Officers and as what belongs to the Church is not proper for Kings so neither ought the Bishop to meddle with what belongs to Kings Which because Peter who represents spiritual men did when he us'd the material Sword and cut off our Servants Ears he deserv'd to be reprehended by our Lord. Hugo de san Victor de sacr fid l. 2. p. 3. c. 4. Earthly Power has the King for Heads Spiritual Power the Pope Earthly things and all ordained for earthly Life belong to the power of the King Spiritual things and all belonging to Spiritual life to the Pope Again l. 2. p. 2. c. 3. It is given to the faithful Christian Laity to possess Temporals to the Clergy onely Spirituals are committed St. Bernard speaks thus to the Pope De consid l. 1. c. 6. Your Power is not in Possessions but in Crimes and for these not for them you have received the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven Consider Hugo's onely Spirituals and St. Bernards not for Possessions or Temporals and judge whether a Catholick is like to be reproved for not extending the Popes power beyond Spirituals And in his 2d Book speaking of Temporals Be it says he that you may some other way challenge these things but not by the right of Apostleship for he Peter could not give what he had not himself what he had that he gave the care as I said over Churches Rupertus Abbas upon these words nor a Rod Mat. 10. speaks thus But now there are two Rods one of the Kings of Gentiles another of the Disciples of Christ The Rod of of the Kings of Gentiles is the Rod of Dominion the Rod of the Disciples of Christ is the Rod of Direction the Rod of Pastoral duty solicitously watching over the cure of Souls The Rod which is of Dominion is not granted to the Ministers of the Gospel of Peace and that is forbidden here nor a Rod c. Cardinal Damianus L. 4. Ep. 9. ad Olderic Episc Firman Between the Kingdom and Priesthood the proper Offices of each are distinguisht that the King may make use of the Arms of the World and the Priest be girt with the Sword of the Spirit which is the Word of God If any Object that Pope Leo engaged himself often in War who nevertheless is a Saint I say what I think that neither Peter obtained the Apostolical Principality because he denied Christ nor David deserved the Oracle of Prophecy because defiled another mans Bed Schoolmen as they speak more plainly are a little more severe Almain de Authorit Eccles c. 2. puts this difference betwixt Ecclesiastical and Lay power that by this onely corporeal punishment is inflicted by other Spiritual precisely Joan. de Parisiis c. 10. de potest Reg. Pap. Granting that Christ had temporal authority and plwer yet gave it not to Peter c. 15. Answering the Objection from Quodcunque solveritis c. I answer with Chrysostom and Ravanus by this is not understood any power given but Spiritual to absolve from the bond of Sins and it were foolish
worse obliges you to conceal the Mischief she teaches that by the reputation of a fair Outside you may preserve your selves in a condition to appear to purpose vvhen time and opportunity make it seasonable for her to discover her injust designs If this happen I must needs profess I shall have a worse opinion of your Church than ever I had For to maintain a false or bad Doctrine which you think to be true or good is but Errour a fault which unless other Circumstances aggravate the case is very pardonable because very natural Men were not men if they were not subject to it But to teach Wickedness and keep this wickedness conceal'd from those who are not as wicked as themselves to pretend a sound Outside and carry a rotten heart has so much Malice joyn'd to the Errour that 't is abominable in a private man and I have not a name abominable enough to say what 't is in a Church After all your brags of Sanctity I hope you vvill not fall into the woe which the Gospel pronounces against Whited Sepulchres beautiful without but within full of dead mens bones and filthiness In fine if you think Bellarmins Doctrine true you have the liberty to make it consistent with Civil Government if you can I 'le promise you to consider what you can alledge as fully and impartially as you can desire and give every Argument its full weight But if you say nothing or dodge it off which is as good as saying nothing being well enough acquainted with your nature to know you are not backward to communicate any thing you can to the satisfaction of your Friends especially when it tends to the justification of your selves I shall know how to set the saddle upon the right horse and without putting you to the confusion of revealing the shame of your Mother conclude you are forbidden to speak and though you were not allow you do wisely to say nothing where nothing is to be said that can make for your justification The Jesuite Fisher was commanded by King James to deliver his Sence of this amongst other Points propos'd to him And he Answered the rest but past this over with this plain Confession for his excuse That he was forbidden to speak of that Subject If you follow his Example I shall believe you have one Religion vvhich you publish for your Reputation and another vvhich you conceal for your Interest I shall expect your Answer vvith impatience and in the mean time remain Your c. FRIEND I Must confess I should have thought my self oblig'd to you if you had dispenst with me in the Question you now propose so pressingly Hitherto I have said nothing but what the Fathers have said for me and hope if any man dislike any thing he will consider before he condemn it what it is to slight and oppose an Authority so venerable But now I am not only without the support of Authority for 't is not to be expected a peremptory decision should be found in the Fathers of a Question which entered not into the world till a good while after they had left it but the face of Authority is on the other side not but that I conceive the Question fully decided to those who mind Sence not Words For it appears very plainly in what I have already produc'd That the Temporal Power moves in its own sphere both Supreamly and Independently which is in truth the whole business But yet because this word Indirect is not found in the Fathers 't is still pretended that the Question is not decided by them and those who have appeared against that Power are for the most part discredited by Censures and rendred so unfit to support others that they have not been able to uphold themselves In my judgment not without partiality For they were Men of Learning and Vertue nor is any thing that I know laid to their charge more then that they thought otherwise in this Point than they think at Rome And yet they at Rome at the same time freely communicate with some who think the same and publish their thoughts and own them in the face of the vvorld However it be I so much value the content of thinking my thought quietly to my self and letting others think as they please of going unregarded on my own road and let others stray as much as they will without thinking my self bound to set them right that I know not any task you could enjoyn me to which I have a greater aversion And I must tell you frankly that were there no more in the case than the bare satisfaction of your curious humour I would intreat you to satisfie it at some other rate than the quiet of your Friend and putting him out of his easie road and setting him to strive against the stream But since with a kind of malicious importunity you profess to interpret my Silence to the disadvantage of the Church I must run the hazard of being perhaps traduc'd my self rather than suffer her to be so and think my self oblig'd to sacrifice my Humour and inconsiderable Concerns to Her honour and service Wherefore since there is no remedy but I must swallow this ungrateful Pill I pray God make it as wholsome as I find it bitter To begin then 'T is too much known that there is a Power attributed to the Pope by some more than is thought due by others and more than some Popes themselves believe for 't is written of Pius Vth. that he blam'd the groundless flattery These Favourers of the Pope are divided into two branches Some giving him an absolute Direct Power over all both Spirituals and Temporals Others restraining his Direct Power to Spirituals but extending it to Temporals too in as much as they have reference to Spirituals The former is call'd the opinion of the Canonists they being most of that Opinion who hold it the later is the opinion of Divines who generally go this way Now if there were nothing in the case but the Authority of the Maintainers and strength of the Reasons by which they maintain it People might dispute with freedom and let the strongest Argument carry it But Popes have taken part and own'd this Power and though they have not determin'd either the way or the thing yet they take it for granted they have it some way and proceed upon it By this means it has got the face of Authority and the universal Reverence we bear our Chief Pastour as it inclines many to think well of all that is favourable to him so it awes the rest who do not into a shiness of contradicting it So that of Learned Men those who write of this Subject write generally in favour of it those who think otherwise chuse other Subjects to write of as in truth there is but little reason to disgust Higher Powers meerly to shew there Learning But this reservedness has been so much taken notice of that long since it has been
should place the Emperor by himself in respect of his temporalities he should grant two beginnings which were Heresie In good Faith Sir I cannot think otherwise but if these men say true your Catholic Princes let them keep as fair as they will with the Pope are all Heretics in their hearts And then what follows Hark what a Cardinal and which I grieve an English man hath publisht to the World Card. Allen against the execution of justice p. 87. The Cannon Laws says he being authentical in the lawful Tribunals of the Christian World do make all Heretics not only after they be namely and particularly denounced but by the Law it self ipso facto as soon as they be Heretics are de jure excommunicated for the same to be depriv'd of their Dominions Philopater p. 154. Another tells us The whole School of Divines and Canonists do hold and that 't is certain and of Faith that any Christian Prince whatsoever if he shall manifestly deflect from the Catholic Religion and endeavour to draw others from the same does presently fall from all power and dignity by the very force of human and divine Law and that also before any Sentence of the supreme Pastor or Judge denounced against him and that his Subjects whatsoever are free from all Obligation of that Oath which they had taken for their Allegeance to him as their lawful Prince and that they may and ought if they have forces drive out such a man as an Apostate or Heretic and a Backslider from the Lord and Christ and an enemy to the Commonwealth from all Dominion over Christians lest he infect others or by his example or command avert others from the faith and that this certain definite and undoubted opinion of the best learned men is wholly agreeable and consonant to the Apostolical doctrine Upon these grounds it was publickly maintain'd that Henry the third of France was lawfully murthered before any sentence of excommunication past against him because though in hidden crimes formalities be requir'd yet evidens notitia facti sententiae locum tenet non percipit formam publicus dolor And that he had long liv'd as an excommunicate person de facto de justa abdic Hen. 3. l 4. c. 2 though the law had not past sentence upon him for favouring Heretics for Simony for entring into league with Hereticks the Queen of England and King of Navar for seizing the goods of the Church without the Popes privity and other offences against the Bulla Caenae Upon these grounds I have seen that execrable Villain Chastel who attempted upon Henry the Fourth what Ravillac after performed defended by a public Apology and I see no attempt can be so barbarous and inhumane which may not be defended by them So that by your favour your Catholic Princes are not secure Quiet they may be but never safe and for their quietness they may thank the lucky conjuncture of those stars which have influence upon the times of their government and restrain the malignity of these Doctrines Otherwise if they be not very cunning in school subtilties they may chance forfeit their Kingdoms and all their power per triccum de lege without ever knowing when or how live all their life time in the erroneous belief that they are very Kings and those who obey them their very Subjects and be deceiv'd all the while But be it as it will this answer which would justifie the innocence of these doctrines by the security of Catholic Princes comes pitifully off when instead of securing it takes them quite away which is a fine kind of security for it is plainly a much easier task to maintain by these doctrines that there is never a true Prince in the Christian world no not in those whom you call Catholics than it is to maintain the doctrines And yet when all is done 't is nothing to purpose neither For our Prince and People are of the number of those whom your Church takes for Heretics and can expect no other treatment from you than what you maintain belongs to Heresie Wherefore however your Catholic Princes satisfie themselves I neither see how he can be satisfied of the fidelity of such of his Subjects as approve of these opinions nor with what face they can pretend security and protection from him Pray think of this while I pass to what I put for a second answer and what I have sometimes heard alledged These opinions will you say are moot-cases probably disputed amongst private men in which the Church is neither engaged nor concerned Pray God this Church be not as slippery a word as either Heresie or Popery These men who thus magnifie the Pope certainly are not of our Church and I believe Presbyterians and Fanaticks of all sorts will disown them too so that even for pitty and not to make Infidels of them you must needs take them into yours But they who speak so kindly of the Pope need not fear disowning We see they are both acknowledged and esteemed and are all Capita alta ferentes Now 't is strange your Church should be unconcern'd in men whom you account Orthodox and learned and whose books come out with the approbation of those whom your Church commissionates for that purpose Me-things the Act of her Officers acting by her Authority should be taken for the Act of the Church Unless you will have the Pope pass for one of those careless Princes who deserve to be deposed for negligence and be ignorant that his Officers abuse their trust and licence unsound doctrines and this at Rome it self where a body would think sufficient care is taken that nothing pass which is not esteemed Orthodox Bring me a Book printed at Rome wherein the contrary doctrine is maintain'd and I will acknowledge there is some sense in this answer In the mean time let me give you a few instances and those at home by which it may appear the Pope is so far from ignorant and unconcern'd in these positions that he approves and countenances them and that both â—hotly and constantly In the reign of King James upon the occasion of the execrable Powder Treason the Oath of Allegeance was enacted by the pious wisdom of the Parliament to secure his Majesty and Successors from the like attempts for the future The Superior of the Catholic Clergy at that time was one Blackwell He after much and long debate of the matter with his fellow Priests at last resolved the Oath according to the plain and common sense of the words might with a safe conscience be taken by the Catholics and afterwards both took it himself and by his admonitions to Clergy and Laity recommended it to them as a thing both lawful and fitting The greatest part of the Clergy who repair'd to London upon that occasion followed the resolution of their Superior and had the Pope been either a little more ignorant or a little more negligent I think it had been better for you
will the Pope looks quietly on lets them cool and take breath and too 't again and this is fair play But to depress one side and cherish the other and this vigorously and constantly is something odd for probabilities In the name of wonder are Schism and Heresie probable amongst you into which one side of your probabilities alwayes runs Or is it an approv'd custom amongst you to excommunicate for probabilities In fine say what you will I cannot think otherwise but that these probabilities of yours are as improbable as any thing in the world Then for your other pretence that the Church all this while interposes not either all words universally have conspir'd together to abuse us and make us understand nothing even of the plainest or there is no sence in it One would think that Church in Spirituals is as state in Temporals Now if two Princes fall out and the King of France for example assist the one with council and forces and the endeavours of his Ministers we say usually and I think pertinently that the State of France is engaged on that side and he who should deny it would be thought deficient either in his language or his wits For can a more pleasant paradox be invented than that an Army marching by commission of the King of France owning his orders and He their actions were all the while but a company of particular men in whose doings the King and State are unconcern'd Now for King say Pope and for State say Church and where is the difference Notwithstanding as I am not much acquainted with quirks and fear the subtle Distinguo and the triccum de schold as much as the triccum de lege I will not undertake but that amongst so many school Physitians as you have some Logical plaister may be found out which you may apply to this sore But this I see that whatever effect a distinction may have in the Schools it will do no manner of good in the world For if the men of your Church persecute other men they will be no less persecuted whether your Church do this as a Church or under some other formality The world is a material thing and formalities alter not its settled course Discredit and want and pain are materiall things and when they fall upon a man he will be ill at ease in spite of all the belief formalities can afford him And if material Subjects rebell against a material King and drive him out of his material Kingdom I think it matters not much what formalities there were in the case I suppose he will be little the better by learning his Subjects did not act as Subjects nor treat him as a King and his new acquaintance with those subtle empty forms I fear will yield him small comfort If your formalities can preserve or restore Kingdoms if they can make honest men of Traitors if they can restore the credit of private men and relieve their wants and ease their distresses I shall acknowledge they are worth hearkning after But if they can do none of these things the Schools that invented them had even best keep them to themselves and much good may they do them The world has neither need nor use of them for real mischiefs are not cur'd by verbal distinctions We complain that the material Governor of your Church arrogates to himself a power dangerous to Princes and that the material men of your Church maintain him in it and both together hotly prosecute All who are not as hot as themseves Tell not me the Church indeed does this but not as a Church for as a Church or not as a Church she does it and if the mischief be done what matter is it how Withrington ended his uncomfortable dayes in prison Walsh is in a fair way to the same preferment Thousands of people were ruin'd thousands destroy'd in Italy and Germany upon the contests betwixt the Pope and Emperor in France upon the Holy League and what happened in those places may happen every where 'T is a remedy for these mischiefs which I look after and security that they shall not one day happen here not the formality by which they were done For in fine a formal plaister to a material wound is but good words to him who is hungry We had our formalities too and our distinctions in the late war and heard enough of the politic capacity and the personal capacity but they neither abated any thing of the publick misery nor the deserv'd punishment inflicted on the witty Authors Our Pagan Juries found them guilty for all their acuteness and their sophistry had no effect with the illiterate Hangman and undistinguishing Halter We had the formalities of Justice to boot but they serv'd for nothing but to render a fact execrable in it self more barbarous and more inhumane You may have more and other formalities but after all they will be but formalities and not a jot more useful than ours You shall permit me to conclude with a Dilemma which I would recommend to your serious thoughts Either your Church it engag'd in these Positions or she is not if she be she is unexcusable for holding them if not you are unexcusable for not renouncing them when without injury to her authority or your own consciences you may I would gladly receive an answer to this Paper or rather a return for I do not think any answer can be made However I entreat you by all our friendship to let me know what you can say Having found you both rational and ingenious in other points you must needs satisfie the curiosity I have to know whether you will disclaim your Church or your reason for certainly you must make bold with one and the best I suppose will be but a bad choice As you are all brought up in a wonderful reverence to your Church I know it will be hard for you to acknowledge any thing amiss in Her and yet on the other side I think it will go against the hair of your temper to part with your reason and that you may be thought a good Son of your Church be content to be thought no good man as certainly he is not whose actions are not warranted by his reason Pray think not the worse of my friendship that I put you to so hard a choice Reason is the measure of friendship as of other virtues and we cannot sin against friendship by acting according to reason Besides Friend you live in a Communion disapprov'd by Law and unmaintainable by Reason and I think 't is the part of a friend to tell you so Wherefore once again pray think not the worse of me and be assured that whatever you think I truly am Your Faithful Friend and Servant SIR I Received your long Letter with the obligation you lay upon me to answer it and heartily wish you had made use of the power you have over me in some other occasion This subject is a kind of Candle to Flyes
so little subtilty that every body does the like almost in every occasion There remains only to examine upon what Principle those who assert these errors proceed whether upon Faith or some other Faith is a reliance upon some Authority and in our case the Authority of Christ who alone is acknowledged the Author and Revealer of all which we are to believe Wherefore of any point in question it must either be pretended that it was revealed by Christ or it cannot be pretended that it belongs to Faith and if any maintain it upon other grounds so far he acts not as a believer but as otherwise qualified Now there are in the world two principal ways by which claim is made to the Authority of Christ for that which we maintain is Faith and that wherein we do not engage his Authority neither of us say is Faith or that they act as faithful who upon reason or experiment for example maintain any thing The World hopes from the learned industry of the Royal Society the sight of many truths yet hidden from her but all their endeavours can never make Faith of them nor concern your Church in them as considerable members of it as some of them are For they go not your Church-way of Faith They look not into Scripture but Experiments and act as Learned not as Church-men What they shall discover to the World will be revealed not by Christ but by them and if any believe them they will have no Christian but Society-Faith Such is the case of our Church Tradition in her known method by which she pretends to the Authority of Christ If any will run upon their own heads and discourse and maintain things and never look into her Rule She can be no more concerned in their proceedings than the Church of England in those of Gresham Colledge For since Faith is that by which she is a Church and Tradition that by which she comes to Faith people must engage Faith if they will engage the Church and Tradition if they will engage her Faith Wherefore whoever goes about to prove any thing otherwise than by Tradition uses not the method to come to Faith I mean the method approved by our Church and this conclusion whether true or false neither reaches Faith nor aims at it and by consequence cannot belong to the Church or Congregation of the Faithful Now reflect a little upon your Authors and see if they go this way to work and the first thing is the consent of the present Age for Tradition signifying the consent of all Ages 't is a madness to pretend it for that which is not believed so much as by the present Do they or can they even offer at this while they see themselves contradicted by men as learned and farr more numerous While all the Universities of a great Kingdom disapprove and condemn their Doctrine and their Books are burnt in the face of the World by public Justice and the men who do this acknowledged good Catholics all the while Do they or can they pretend the consent of former Ages while they know all Antiquity agrees that for many Ages Popes were so Supreme in Spirituals that in Temporals they were Subjects Such they acknowledged themselves and as such the Emperours treated them When and how and upon what occasion they came to be temporal Princes is known to all who are knowing in History A condition by the way which he who envies them little understands or little loves the good of the Church with which 't was much worse when Popes were hindred from doing their duty by the unjust violence and oppression of powerful men amongst whom they lived Do they alledg the undoubted Testimonies of the Fathers of the Church assembled in a general Council Nothing of this appears in what you have produced The men themselves are most of yesterday All many Ages since Christ and there needs no second Argument to prove any thing that it is not Faith if it can be proved that it began in any Age since the first as these opinions plainly did But consider their Arguments They are either grounded upon some odd interpretation of Scripture as the order of Melchesedech the two Swords St Peters walking on the water and the like or else upon some deduction and reasoning as weak as the water which they mention And this methodt though per impossibile it could prove the thing true yet could never prove it to be Faith There are many things in the world which are so acknowledged to be true that they are withall acknowledged not to be Faith Was it taught by Christ Was it believed by Christians Semper ubique ab omnibus Till this appear it neither is nor can be Catholic Faith But that which I insist upon is that this method is plainly resolved into Reason and can no more engage the Church of Rome than the experimental learning of the Royal Society the Church of England The Authors you produce rely not upon the Authority of Christ testified by an uninterrupted conveyance down to us but upon the strength of their own discourses which if they be weak and fail the Church never undertook that all in her Communion should discourse strongly Neither can she herself do more then testifie of the truths delivered to her and they are such and were so delivered This testimony is all which can be expected from her as a Church speaking of what concerns us to speak of her power to make Ecclesiastical Laws and the like are no part of our case if she fail in this and either testifie that to be delivered which was not so or suppress any thing which was delivered blame her but for this that some Members in her Communion have weak Reasons or strong Passions if you blame her consider the confusion you will bring into the World which I have so much dilated before that to repeat it would be tedious here But will you have a taste of the Churches sense of these things Consider the Hymn made in the first Ages of the Church inserted since by public Authority into her solemn Office received by all the Faithful and used on the Feast of the Epiphany Non eripit mortalia qui Regna dat coelestia Can the Church which prays thus be thought to favour the deposing power Or can her sense appear more plainly than in the consent of an universal practice But let us look upon her in a Council Wickleff amongst other errors had advanced this Proposition Populares c The people may at their pleasure correct their offending Lords Con. Const Sess 8. And this amongst the rest was condemned by the Council of Constance To the same Council was offered another Article worded in this manner Quilibet Tyrannus c. Every Tyrant may and ought lawfully and meritoriously be killed by any of his Vassals or Subjects even by secret plots and subtle insinuations or flatteries notwithstanding any Oath or League made with
as against any other I could alledge that of those Popes who have gone farthest none has defined any thing concerning these matters in those circumstances which even those Divines who attribute most to them require as necessary to make it believed or ex Cathedra as they call it But I conceive it needless it seeming to me sufficiently evident by what has been alledged already that our Faith and Church are not to suffer by these exorbitancies and commonwealths can secure themselves by their own power But Friend the case is otherwise with you Your men alledge Scripture for these errors and engage your Rule of Faith and how the honest Protestant who in this case undoubtedly has the true sense of Scripture on his side can handsomely disengage his Church from a scandal to which is pretended the authority of her Rule is difficult to apprehend If people come not to their journies end who refuse to take the right road it is no wonder to any nor blame to the Guide whose office it is to shew men the right way but cannot make them follow it But your men pretend they keep the way your Church shews them to Truth and yet arrive at Error And when Error and Truth pretend both to the same Rule and that the Rule of your Church I should think your Church deeply concerned to consider by what means it may be decided which is Heresie and which Faith In short our erring men since they pretend not our Churches Rule can never fix their errors upon the Church nor advance them to Faith nor beyond the degree of opinions Yours since they pretend to the very Rule owned by you must needs till a certain way of proceeding upon that Rule or interpreting Scripture be setled render it doubtful to those who truly desire to be guided by your Rule which of the two is the doctrine of Christ and are therefore wonderfully more dangerous to the Church than ours Farther abstracting from Passion or Interest which may be equal in both ours because they have no firmer ground than their own deductions are more reclaimeable and may at any time relinquish their errors without offering violence to their Faith and Religion Yours because they pretend to your Rule of Faith are apt to mistake their misguided Fancies for Religion as we have seen in the late confusions the title of Saints appropriated to wicked men and so become fixt and unalterable in them for which reason they are also much more dangerous to the State as they were before to the Church In this inequality of cases I do not know the Church of England has proceeded so far as ours in the Council of Constance or condemned these Errors by any Authentic Censure though in my opinion it were proper for her to consider how much her Rule upon which depends her own stability is concerned in them Mean time instead of reproaching our several Churches with the errors of their several Members It were I think more to purpose I am sure more charitable to endeavour that all Errors might be taken away on both sides that by one Faith and one Baptism we may all serve our one Lord and God and reunite into one Holy and Immaculate and Glorious Church free from those spots and wrinkles which our unhappy Divisions have too too much and too long brought upon her This is what the desire to obey your commands has suggested to me in answer to your Letter You will pardon the length of it which as it is beyond my expectation so 't is beyond my power to remedy and give me leave to hope it may prevail with you not to abate either your Charity to my Religion or kindness to Your very humble Servant THE THIRD and FOURTH OF THE CONTROVERSIAL LETTERS OR THE GRAND Controversie Concerning The pretended Temporal Authority of POPES over the whole Earth and the true Sovereign of KINGS within their own respective Kingdoms Between two English Gentlemen The one of the Church of ENGLAND The other of the Church of ROME LONDON Printed for Henry Brome and Benjamin Tooke at the Gun and Ship in St. Pauls Church-Yard MDCLXXIII FRIEND FOR all the thanks I owe you and all the Complements 't were fit I made you take this acknowledgment that you have answered beyond my expectation and this assurance that I will consider very seriously what you say and make such use of it that you shall have cause to think your labour not unprofitably spent But yet I cannot but complain of the secresie which you enjoyn me I for my part am so well satisfied of your way of writing that I cannot but think others will be so too and that this shiness of yours is injurious both to your self and the World and because unjust commands are not to be obey'd let me tell you frankly I mean not to confine your Papers to my closet They shall be seen if it please God by more Eyes then mine but yet not to fall absolutely out with you I will divide stakes and so communicate what you write that there shall be no suspition of the Writer This I promise you very faithfully and to do it with more exactness lest your name should be discovered I engage my self to conceal my own Then if John a nokes get all the praise from you the fault be upon your own Head For the rest to deal plainly with you I find my self I know not how Things will not settle with me and though out of the mouth of a good Protestant I believe what you say would have past good reason yet when I reflect you are a Papist that is if you will pardon my Freedom of a crafty insinuating Generation I have still a kind of grumbling This Papist marrs all and though I think my self as free from prejudice as other men I find t' wil not do I can not but fear being trapan'd You have I must confess said many things very well and more then I thought you had been allow'd to say but you are reserv'd still 'T is true you give Reasons for your reservedness which I can not answer but whether it be that my plain nature would have every thing as plain as my self or that curiosity be like Love where too much reason is thought blameable I could wish in this occasion you had us'd less Reason and more Freedom Speak out the whole truth man and be a good Protestant otherwise own the whole Falshood and be a Papist of the first magnitude I fear your half Catholicks are in as bad a Case as Montaltos half Sinners who shall be damn'd for not sinning enough For my part if I would be a Papist I would be a Papist to purpose Hang this motly Religion this half Rome half Geneva Faith which gets a man neither credit nor security I would be as good a Catholick as Bellarmin for his heart if I would be one and if I thought your Catholick Faith would save me I would take order mine
his I am taught to love my neighbour as my self because I am satisfy'd the way in which I am is the way to Heavean I wish every body would chuse it But if you think me a dangerous person for this you must think Reason a dangerous thing which he that fears to be trapand let me tell you is more trapan'd by his own fears You talk pleasantly of half Catholicks and motly Religion but I think you expect no answer and need not be put in mind that Religion as sacred as it is cannot hinder men from using their weak apprehensions and disorderly fancies and irregular deductions as well upon it as every thing else and he that shall take all that for Faith which every even faithful man offers him may too truly say inopem me copia fecit and find perhaps at last that too much Religion has left him none at all For the new trouble with which you threaten me I hope the more you examine my answer the less cause of exception you will find against it Nevertheless if you do prove dissatisfy'd I will endeavour when I know why to satisfie you as well as I can The noble Person cite was unquestionably a wise man and his saying is a wise saying and I am of his mind and wish such an Authentick definition made in this matter with all my heart But Friend I am no Pope to make one and though I am perswaded an Authentick definition of truth might produce very good effects I fear an unseasonable dispute might do as much harm Those two Powers like two boundless Seas have sometimes strugled together and in their unresistable Waves buried multititudes of unhappy People We may bless God we live in a calm disputes might raise the billows again and who knows when they would be laid I could speak with Freedom to you but since you talk of communicating what I say to others consider that one will mistake ignorantly another pervert wilfully a third deduce rashly and in a matter of this consequence where our duty required by the Law of God is concern'd all interpose eagerly and the most ignorant being still the most forward and full of noise the great good you fancy by setting bounds to the two Powers would prove clamour and bustle and inextricable confusion and if any miscarriage-happen all will be imputed to the Author who as innocent as he may otherwise be can never yet acquit himself of medling with what he has nothing to do No Friend let us preserve the Majesty of Supream Powers in an awful distance and submit to them with the reverence of a quiet obedience and not make them cheap by unseasonable disputes Princes and Bishops are both sacred let what belongs to them be so too and not toucht without the excuse of necessity or obligation of duty But People should know how to behave themselves when the two Powers are at odds For my part I conceive this is a Case which may safely be left to Gods providence and that those who do amiss sin more by Passion then Ignorance Let a man truly mean to do well and bring an upright Conscience to he Action and I believe he will not want as much knowledge as is necessary for him This I see that God being Author of both Powers it is not possible they should enterfare but by an abuse of the one and that abuse will be visible enough and when the case happens those who do not want honesty will not miscarry for want of knowledge In the mean time I should be very sorry to see the case happen I will not contribute towards it so much as even to mention it Obedience is the duty which God and my condition require from me and in the performance of that I will endeavour to be found unblamable and leave disputing to those who value the praise of a witty or subtle man above that of a faithful and quiet subject Besides though I might possibly hit of something more then is usually say'd on the argument which in my Opinion uses to be treated lamely enough yet I take it much to exceed the sphere of my ability In two words it is a question which I neither could sufficiently handle if I would nor would if I could But for your second question since it trenches as you say upon Faith and we are taught to be ready to give satisfaction to any who demands an account of the hope in us I shall obey the Apostle and you to my power You tie me nevertheless to pretty severe conditions for what is there or can there be so plain which mistaking zeal will not reprove or what other remedy can I bring to settle your quietness then Reason which yet I conceive to be be the very thing which causes it The onely expedient I can find to speak as you would have me is to say nothing at all I mean of my self farther then to deliver upon occasion may sence of what others say but answer your objection in the words of such men of whom you may be secure they will run no hazard of reproof from our Church and if your Reason can as well rectifie your self as their Authority will justifie them I hope you may at last be satisfy'd Remember then if you please that I take not upon me to determine dogmatically what is true and what false but only to acquaint you what may by a Catholicek unreprovably be said Peradventure I have no reason to be displeas'd with the bargain for dogmatising being so much out of Fashion in this age it is a great deal more easie as well as more fashionable to deliver what other men say to the point then to handle and conclude the point it self But to your difficulty The Pope say you is acknowledg'd by Catholicks to be the Vicar of Christ on Earth and I acknowledge that he is so From this you frame such an Argument What power Christ had the Pope has Christ had all power therefore the Pope has so too and this by an Article of our Faith Before I answer let me intreat you to consider what work 't would make if it were apply'd to Princes instead of Popes which I think it may as well be For if the Pope be the Vicar of Christ on Earth Princes are the Vicars of God on Earth and that I think is as good and reaches as far And if his Vicarship import a power to dispose of Kingdomes why will not their Vicarship import the power of the Keys and why may not he who purely upon the score of Vicarship comes to the Pope for a Title to a Kingdom as well go to his King for Remission of his sins If the Pope must be said to have the temporal Power as well as spiritual because Vicar includes both I see not how Princes can be deny'd to have the spiritual since they have the temporal and are Vicars as well as he This Doctrine would make brave work and introduce a
either grounded upon or warranted by the Instruction left by S. Peter to his fellow Pastours in these words 1 Pet. 5. Feed the flock of God which is among you providing not by constraint but willingly according to God neither for filthy lucre sake but voluntarily neither as over-ruling the Clergy but made Examples of the flock from the heart From these words some gather this difference betwixt the Spiritual and Temporal Power that the one is accompanied with the power of Constraint the other not I know the word Coacte is sometimes expounded otherwise and that some and in particular V. Bede understand by it the exclusion of that Mercenary interest which in service some propose to themselves while others serve for Love And this sence is without doubt a good and a true one but I know not whether the Apostle meant it though peradventure he or rather his Inspirer might according to S. Austin's Rule That all the Truth was meant by God which is contained in the words he Inspired Otherwise that seems to be the import of the Second Branch Not for lucre but voluntarily and this Interpretation with a needless tautology makes the two branches signifie but one thing which the Apostle seems nevertheless to distinguish However it be considering that before S. Peter Christ himself puts Dominion and non-dominion for the difference betwixt Secular and Spiritual Power The Kings of the Gentiles have dominion over them but you not so Luke 22.25 And that S. Paul tells the Corinthians The arms of his warfare are not carnal Cor. 10. I conceive that whatever S. Peter meant this doctrine is very true that Force and Constraint belong only to the Civil Magistrate and not to the Spiritual I mean in vertue of his being a Spiritual Magistrate for these Formalities of which you profess'd so much dislike return again in spight of my teeth and there is no discoursing without them Otherwise the man who is a Spiritual Magistrate may upon other accounts justly have and justly use Constraint nay it may be his due in consideration of his Spiritual Magistracy but not originally deduc'd from thence but annexed to it or accrued by other means According to S. Bernard mentioned in my last Not by right of Apostleship Now if I can make out to you that it may irreprovably be held in our Church that this Spiritual Power of which you are so jealous cannot use Force or Constraint upon any man I hope you will have no cause of complaint against it nor fewel for those fears which still disquiet you For certainly a Power which cannot use Force is a little dangerous If it can perswade you to what it would you then act by your Inclination or Choice but if it cannot you are free to do what you will And I think you would not wish to be more safe Consider then what men they are whom they must reprove who will reprove this Doctrine And first S. Hierom delivers it very plainly Epitaph Nepot Ep. 3. We must obey the Bishop as the King nay the Bishop less than the King for he is over the unwilling the Bishop over the willing One subjects by Fear the other is given to Service One imprisons the Body to death the other preserves the Soul to life S. Greg. Nazian Apologet We ought not to constrain by Force or Necessity but perswade by Reason and Example of our lives Again Our Law and Law-maker have especially provided that the flock be fed not by constraint but freely and willingly And Orat. 1. cont Jul. Apost These things Julian had in his mind as those who were privy to his secrets discovered but he was restrained by the clemency of God and the tears of the Christians whereof many and by many had now been shed since this was their only remedy against a Persecutor S. Jo. Chrysost in Act. Hom. 3. comparing the care of a Bishop with the care of a Father makes that of a Bishop much more heavy as having more Children and less Power What saies he will not the Bishop endure who has so many not of his houshold Family but whose Obedience is in their own power Again The Emperour has command over the whole world the Bishop is Bishop only of one City and yet he has as much more care as there is difference betwixt a River stir'd with the wind and the Sea swelling and raging Why so because there are there more helps since all things are perform'd by Laws and Commands here is no such thing for it is not lawful to command by Authority Hom. 10. in 1. Thessalon A Father both by Natural and Civil Laws uses his Child with much freedome If he instruct him against his will if he strike him none hinders him nor dares the Son himself look up A Priest has much difficulty for first he must rule those that are willing to be ruled and whom by his government he is to please Again We domineer not over your Faith Beloved nor order these things by the right of command and dominion To us is commended the speech of Doctrine not the Authority of Power and Principality We hold the place of Counsellors and Exhortors He who counsels when he delivers his opinion forces not the hearer to accept it but leaves in his power the free choice of what is to be done And Hom. 1. in Ep. ad Tit. I omit to say that a Bishop cannot with truth be called a Prince Why Because it is in the Power of their Subjects to obey or not Again De Sacerdot L. 2. External Judges when they find wicked men who have transgrest the Laws shew themselves endued with great Power and Authority and force them to change their manners whether they will or no. But here we must not use force but only perswade and by that means make him become better whose cure we have undertaken For neither have we any Power given by Law to force Delinquents and if we had we have not whereon to exercise this force and Power since Christ gives an eternal Kingdom to those who not by force but by a firm resolution of the soul abstain from sin Wherefore there is need of much art that Christians who are ill-affected will perswade themselves that they ought submit to the cure of Priests Again upon these words in the last to the Heb. Hom. Ult. Obey your Prelates that they may do this with joy not lamenting c. You see that when an Ecclesiastical Prince is contemned he ought not return revenge but all his revenge is to weep and sigh And upon Isa 6. Hom. 4. The King forces the Priest exhorts He with necessity this by counsel He has sensible this spiritual arms c. S. Aust de fide oper C. 2. says The material sword used in the Old Testament by Moyses and Phinees was a figure of the degradations and excommunications to be exercised in the New when in the discipline of the Church the visible sword should cease Origen
crime which deserves death they deliver him degraded over to the Secular Magistrate to receive him I know that some would have this to proceed only from the prohibition of the Canons which for decency forbid the Clergy to meddle with bloud But by their favour considering the unanimous Doctrine of the Fathers before delivered I cannot think but the true indecency is the want of power or in St. Bernard's language their thrusting their Sickle into other mens Harvest Otherwise an action truely vertuous seems far from indecent and to purge the Commonwealth of a bad Member is not only a vertue but a necessary one too and such as the Commonwealth cannot subsist without Not only the Judge but the Executioner too may be Saints for all the severity of their Offices and I should think that things which consist with vertue ought not be thought mis-becoming and what are necessary cannot So that I must needs believe this Custom of the Church implies her sence that her Power is at an end when she has us'd her spiritual rod Excommunication and if any more be fit to be done she must have recourse to temporal Power which if it think not fit to proceed I know not why they are not at their liberty This is what occurs to me in Answer to the point you propos'd I hope it will prove satisfactory and fully quiet the jealousie you have of the spiritual Power For certainly there cannot be a more unreasonable fear in the world then to fear that which you know can do you no harm That men should be in the world impowr'd to declare to us the commands of God and way to Heaven and press them by efficacious perswasion upon us and take all opportunities in season and out of season to that purpose is so far from prejudicial to mankind that we cannot fancy a greater nor more needed Good And if you will take it away you must take mankind away too For if our nature require we be govern'd by reason it requires too that men be permitted to shew it us when we see it not of our selves If perswasion and exhortation be thought harmfull to men our nature is fram'd very ill upon which those harmfull things are in proper means to work all commerce and all society must end when these things are forbidden For what use is there of conversation if it become unlawfull for me to perswade another man to his own or my good If it were not folly to dilate a point so plain what might not be said of it Farther if men become obstinate and will not hear reason it is very natural and very fit they should be reclaim'd if it may be by openly shewing them their fault and making them sensible they are in the wrong which if they be 't is fit they should amend if they be not the company before whom the reprehension is made will see it and take their parts And he who reprehends them wrongfully will incur the shame intended for them So that by this Power none will run the hazard so much as of shame but those whose obstinacy in sin truly deserves it Indeed I have not known this Power put in practice whether we owe the discontinuance of it to the Laws or Confession but 't is plain 't is in the Church and good for Mankind it should be so After this if the Sinner remain yet obstinate what remains but that vertuous men and the Church should have no more to do with him who will not do good to himself and may do harm to others but look upon him in our Saviours language as an Ethnic and Publican and have no Commerce and Communication with him till Repentance restore him to his former condition In which I take the substance of Excommunication to consist And this I conceive is so far from harm that I suppose you will make no difficulty to allow it all not only ours but all who pretend to the title of a Church claiming thus much Power at least For that which you only do and only can fear that this Spiritual Power should go too far and look upon the disposing of Kingdoms and altering Commonwealths as things within her reach I hope I have brought you sufficient evidence to make you see that the All fore-seeing Providence of our Wise Law-maker has provided abundantly for your security in distinguishing the two Powers and putting them into several hands and committing the Spiritual Sword to the Church the Material to the Prince For if the Spiritual Power cannot use Force and be only over the Willing and such as may chuse whether they will obey or no which you see the Fathers plainly affirm there is no possible fear from it If any encroachments be made to the prejudice of other mens Rights we have the same security against them as against all Injuries the Protection of our Prince oblig'd to defend us and arm'd with Power to do it We are taught He bears not the Sword in vain And we see by experience he does not For notwithstanding these flattering Positions which you make so terrible Princes know well enough how to preserve themselves and their Subjects from receiving any harm from them So Catholics have done in all times and so they do still 'T is true they are generally willing enough to gratifie the Pope with permitting any thing to be said in his favour and shew that respect to the Common Father of Christendom as to let him and those who are addicted to him say even what they please But yet they do as they think fit And make no difficulty to Assemble National Councels and settle even Ecclesiastical Affairs with their own Bishops nay to make War upon the Pope himself And while they use the Sword are justified still by the Pens of Learned men who take their parts For all this they leave not off their respect to their Church but so prosecute their Civil concerns that they leave the Rights of the Church untoucht and make Peace with so much reputation to the Pope that they refuse not sometimes to ask pardon even when they are the persons wrong'd But while they give this respect to the Vicar of Christ they leave not for all that to do their business and preserve their own Rights And while they keep the Sword in their own hands let the Pope talk as he pleases think themselves secure enough They apprehend no great danger from Solligisms which they can use at any time as Alexander did the Gordian knot Notwithstanding since it may be dangerous to a Prince that the minds of his Subjects be possest with false Doctrines especially in matters concerning Religion which men generally prefer before Allegiance according to that Aequum est Deo magis obedire quam Regi though in truth Religion and Allegiance can never interfare it might concern the prudence of Princes to take that care in these matters which is fitting But I am no Counsellour and my condition obliges
of the Learned Men who Write in favour of the Pope stick to that way As Bellarmin is the most famous amongst them and most at hand I choose his Arguments believing as he was a Man of great Reading he fail'd not to make use of all that was considerable in those who Writ before him and seeing those who Write since borrow most from him He has Five in his Book De Rom. Pont. and Four in his Answer to Barklay The First are Answered by Barklay and better by Withrington and every one who Writes of this Subject takes notice of them In Answering I make use chiefly of Withrington inserting only upon occasion what I find in others Only to indulge something to my fancy and ease it of the grievous pain of Transcribing I neither tie my self to the order nor preciseness of the Arguments but make entire Arguments of themselves what the Author meant sometimes a proof of some part of an Argument going before While you have the Substance I hope you will allow me a little Variety for my own ease Bellarmin then After he had taught against the Canonists That the Spiritual and Civil Power are in themselves distinct and have different Offices different Ends c. yet when these two meet together then he affirms they make but one Commonwealth in which the Spiritual Power is superiour to the Temporal For saies he there cannot be two Heads and therefore one Power must of necessity be subject to the other when they both Club into one Commonwealth But this they do where the Law of Christ is receiv'd For we being many are one Body in Christ Rom. 12. And in one Spirit we were all baptiz'd into one Body 1 Cor. 12. And because the Members of the same Body must depend one of another and Spirituals cannot be said to depend on Temporals Temporals must depend on Spirituals and be subject to them To this they Answer differently Some granting the Spiritual and Temporal Power make but one Commonwealth affirm the Members independent one of another as the Hand depends not on the Foot nor the Foot on the hand but each free and absolute in their proper Functions are subject only to the Supream Head Christ Others in my opinion more rationally deny the Two Powers club into one Commonwealth and say The Spiritual makes one and the Temporal another and to many others as there are Independent Heads of this Power That the same men in different respects make both these Bodies and that as Clergy and Laity and all not excepting the Prince himself in as much as they are Faithful are subject to the Spiritual Power according to the nature of Spiritual Subjection so the same Laity and Clergy not excepting the Pope himself in as much as they are Citizens and parts of the Temporal Commonwealth are subject to the Temporal Power that is for as much as concerns the Law of God purely and abstracting from Humane Constitutions and such Changes as time has brought into the World For now the Pope is himself an absolute Prince and other Clergy Men have Priviledges and Immunities justly belonging to them When therefore 't is assumed that the Church is one Body they distinguish this word Church and say if it be taken Formally that is the Faithful under the notion of Faithful then indeed they make but one Body but neither doth this Body include both Powers for 't is only the Spiritual to which they are subject as Faithful as Citizens they belong to the Temporal But if the word Church be taken Materially for the Men which make up the Church an Acception something improper but yet such as comprehends both Powers then say they In this sence the Church is not one Body but two or if you vvill twenty as many as there are several Supream Temporal Powers in Christendom One Spiritual in relation to the Spiritual Power and which is properly the Church The rest Temporal in relation to their several Temporal Heads And this Answer as it seems fair in it self and justified by the sence and apprehension of Mankind for France and Spain for example both acknowledge the Pope and are both parts of the Church and that one Body of which the Apostle speaks but he that should therefore think them not to be Two distinct Bodies and Independent Common-wealths would be thought something extravagant so 't is a little more strongly inforc'd against Bellarmin by other parts of his own Doctrine For he teaches elsewhere That Church-men besides that they are Church-men are also Citizens and parts of the Civil Common-wealth and that all Members of every Body must be subject to their respective Head That the Civil and Spiritual Power are in their nature distinct Powers and have distinct Offices and Ends c. and that Christ did distinguish the Dignities and Offices of Pope and Emperour that one should not presume upon the Rights of the other That Christian Princes as well as Infidels acknowledge no Superiour in Temporals since Christ took not away the Rights of any and a King by becoming a Christian loses no Right he had before and the like Besides this Answer seems wonderfully strengthned by some Authorities mentioned in the former Letters Such as Gelasius to the Emperour Anastasius The Prelates of the Church owe you all Obedience And again The Bishops themselves are to obey your Laws and that because there are Two principal Powers by which the World is Governed the Sacred Authority of Bishops and Regal Power Likewise Pope Anastasius to the same Emperour Bishops are subject to the Laws of the Prince in what concerns Public Discipline and Princes to Bishops in the dispensation of the Mysteries and Sacraments according to the famous Canon of Leo the IV. Nos si incompetenter It is to be noted that there are Two Persons by which this world is governed The Regal and Sacerdotal as Kings are Chief in Worldly so Priests in Divine matters Therefore David though by his Regal Vnction he were over Priests and Prophets in affairs of the World yet was under them in those of God Much more might be alledged on this Subject but this I conceive is enough to shew the Answer given to Bellarmin has the support of Authority as well as Reason A Second Argument is from the ends of both Powers whereof one being Eternal the other Temporal happiness because the Eternal happiness is the Supream and Last end of all things Temporal happiness must be subordinate to it And because according to Aristotle where the Ends are subordinate the Faculties likewise are subordinate the Civil Power which aims only at Temporal happiness must be subordinate and subject to the Spiritual which looks after Eternal This Argument they Answer likewise two waies First by granting the whole which they say concludes nothing against them For admitting the Temporal Power to be subordinate to the Spiritual nothing follows more than than 't is under the other according to the Order which the other
look off you will not do so much for her as wipe off those blemishes 'T is true you have told me and 't is the only thing to purpose you have told me that That cannot be the Churches Doctrine which is openly disclaim'd by a great part of the Church and that part acknowledg'd Orthodox by all the rest But if your Chuch forbid any to profess their minds as freely as others it must needs be suspected She has more kindness for these Doctrines than is for Her honour and however sound she may be is yet a very injurious Church which obliges her Subjects to pass for suspicious and dangerous people and be thought to hold what they are not oblig'd to do and what perhaps they do not hold but must not say so Besides I have already told you the Case is not much different whether these Doctrines belong to your Faith or not if they be thought true for that is enough to make them practic'd upon occasion And if your Church permit none to say they are false who can think but she desires they should pass for true and that they will do so at last if they do not already And then truly we have great security from your Answer as if because these Doctrines do not belong to your Church as Church they might not be made use of by your Church as so many men I told you this before and you saw well enough how much your Churches reputation was concern'd notwithstanding what you say for her and yet you continue cold and will say no more Never tell me This Lethargy of yours is not for nothing If you be grown careless of your own credit and interest I thought nothing could have quench't the Zeal you all have of your Church How a Papist insensible when the Honour of his Church is in question Deny it as long as you will either you are forbidden to speak and let people know what you harbour in your breasts or you harbour something there which 't is not for your interest people should know In short this constraint which is upon you must either be from abroad or at home You deny there is any from abroad And I hope you say true otherwise I know not what to think of a Church which permits not her Subjects to approve their fidelity to their Prince If it be at home it can be nothing but Guilt and shame and the Conscience of adhering to bad Tenets For I hope you do not think in earnest the State should take it ill of any who should profess as openly as he will that he is an honest man and a good Subject If you fear nothing from your own side it goes very ill with you if you have to fear from ours We know who they are to whom the Civil-sword is a Terrour Excuse not your self upon my curiosity and think it inconsiderable and unworthy of satisfaction 'T is true I am curious and if I were not you would make me so But let me tell you my curiosity is more a friend to you then your squeamishness For pray consider No Commonwealth at least none of a different Communion is safe where those Doctrines are receiv'd which are current among some of you Who 's the Friend I who give you occasion and press you to clear your selves or you who by your backwardness will make it shortly be thought you cannot be clear'd I know well enough there is no great Community nor can be whose Members are all free from fault The nature of mortality bears not an absolute perfection But do you think it a small point of friendship that I offer you the means to make it appear that whoever is faulty you are not Every body can tell and were it put to your self I am fully perswaded you would not deny it that he is not very well principled for a Subject who believes what some of you teach While you make such a mystery of it no body can say you are not of the number and many will suspect you are In fine there is no choice but either you do believe ill and then I must change my good thoughts of you or you do not and then either say so plainly or you are the most superlative Politick in the world to take other mens faults upon you and entitle your self to a guilt which is none of your own If you will give off the defence of your Church and leave her to shift as well as she can for her self why with all my heart I have no reason to wooe you to a sense of your Churches reputation If you will grow careless of your own fame and be content to have it thought you deserve the harsh censures which some make of you you may too if you please though as a Friend I would advise you to do otherwise But let me tell you if you become forgetful we shall not We remember there was such a time as 88 and a thing call'd the Invincible Armada and which might have been so indeed if the Commanders had not been more careful to stick punctually to their Orders then do their business We remember the cause of all this was what Sixtus the Fifth cals Heresie of the Queen which mov'd him to expose the Kingdom as a prey and Philip the Second to seize it We know this cause remains and hope it will do so If it have not wrought since we may thank the want of opportunity and prospect of another Armada But when occasion serves we cannot but think the same cause will be apt to produce the same effect Now pray review your Politicks and see whether they will counsel you to settle this opinion among your fellow-Subjects that in such a case which may happen because it hath happened there are who would joyn with an enemy and help to enslave their Countrey and that you are the men If your Politicks do advise you to this they are the worst natur'd unkindest Politicks in the world I am sure let who will be the Politician I am the Friend But however they advise you we who are no Politicians should be glad to know there are none such among us or if there be who they are We value our own safety though you do not your credit Notwithstanding if you will persist in your Politick diffidence and think we Hereticks are not to be trusted so far as to be made acquainted that you are not errant Knaves I cannot help it But I will convince you if I can that there is something more then bare curiosity in the matter Let me tell you in confidence since this business must needs be made a secret that I am no such stranger to it as you think I 〈◊〉 thought of it a whole Moneth at least and am deceiv'd if I do not see a little into the Milstone At least I am sure my eyes have one advantage which I suspect yours may want that they are not dazled with the lustre of great Names
was a scurvy thing to jabber words and never mind what they signifie For there is nothing in all this which Indirect power can mean but Direct Power In fine there is no way to make this Power Indirect but by saying either that the Pope when he commands Deposition does not command Deposition which for my part I would not do because I fear I should tell a lye or else that Deposition does not follow from that from which it follows and if I should say this too I fear I should tell two lies But however since Indirect sure must be some way opposite to Direct The Popes Power to be Indirect must be some way not directed to Deposition Which way this should be he must be wiser than I that can tell If Determination or Intention would do it sure it cannot be thought he is not determin'd or does not intend to do that which he commands And if the Directness be taken as it ought from the immediate influence of the power upon the effect we see he precisely commands this particular effect and 't is maintained this effect must follow in vertue of that command Now if any man can understand how a Power should be Indirect in respect of an Effect to which it is directed all the ways by which Power can be directed I would gladly be directed to that man to learn of him how nonsence may become sence But till I do meet him I must needs think that this distinction of Direct and Indirect in this case is a meer sound of words which signifie nothing and by which the Authors speculate themselves into nonsence and abuse themselves and their Readers I am not ignorant that those who maintain this Indirect Power speak otherwise of it but I think I speak as all men besides themselves speak and know not by vvhat right they force upon vvords meanings proper to their purpose and contrary to what general custom has fixt upon them To alter common and setled Notions is to perplex and embroyl things and condemn the inquiries of men to hopeless and endless confusion For Truth is discovered by seeing the connexion of Notions and Notions are known by Words and if the Notions belonging to vvords remain not steady and unchanged our search after Truth must needs end in uncertain noise and inextricable blunder He who has the liberty to alter the notion of vvords is empowred to maintain any thing If he take a fancy to defend that Jet is vvhite 't is but by vvhite meaning black and the business is done Where I see Notions changed I am mighty suspicious there is a design upon some Truth or other in the Changers And so I fear it happens in our case For if Indirect Power mean according to the apprehension of men Power to an Indirect effect Those who will maintain in the Pope an Indirect Power must to speak sence say that though he has not immediately and properly Power to Depose yet he has power to do something out of which Deposition vvill follow And this they vvould fain be at For give them their due they are no enemies to sence vvhile sence is no enemy to them They offer therefore sometimes at Excommunication and vvould make us believe that from thence must follow Deposition Excommunication is vvithout doubt a proper effect of Spiritual Power and so comes vvithin the sphere of the Popes activity and if it vvould but follow that an Excommunicated Person can have no Communication no vvay and vvith none An Excommunicated Prince vvould by that means be Deposed For he could not govern those vvith vvhom he could have no entercourse and if he could no longer govern he vvere no longer King This now is sence and intelligible but the mischief is it will not do They find Excommunication when they consider it a little better hinders indeed Communion in Spirituals but if there be any temporal tye to the Excommunicated person as of a Wife to a Husband a Servant to his Master all Subjects to their Prince Excommunication leaves this as entire and strong as it was before Any that has business with him may deal with him notwithstanding his Excommunication For it would be fine if when an Excommunicated person ows me mony I should not require my debt of him because he is Excommunicated Wherefore no Excommunication will hinder a Prince from conversing freely with his Subjects and his Subjects with him Nay they are obliged to all the acts of Duty to which they were before and not to become faulty themselves if perhaps their Prince be so Wherefore because this will not hold water they will not trust to it but think it safer to make bold with a word and give it a new notion than venture the cause upon a foundation which they are conscious will fail them 'T is a great deal better to talk a little non-sence than by obstinately sticking to sence hazard the loss of a good Cause That the Pope shall have power to depose Kings come what will they are resolv'd And because the Canonists do not thrive very well with their extravagance of making him sole and absolute Monarch of the World they think fit to be a little more modest and allay the bold heat with sprinckling this Indirect vpon it But then the notion of that word importing what they cannot make good there is no remedy but they must give it another If they could have kept the sence too it would have been so much the better but since that will not be they think it at least something if their Tenet let it signifie what it will sound not altogether so harshly as the Canonists with which they perceive the World not very well pleas'd Bellarmine therefore applies this lenitive and saies the Pope disposes of Temporals only Indirectly but whether he forgot the impertinent Circumstance or had any other reason never tells us what that word means in his Rom. Pont. where he first uses it but leaving it to shift for it self and us to guess what it means goes on to prove the power which he calls Indirect never offering to shew that 't is Indirect Neither is there any mention or use made of the word that I perceive in the whole course of his Arguments So that 't is manifest Power was the thing for which he was concern'd For the Indirect he thought it no great matter what became of it being perhaps in his own judgment but an insignificant sound without influence upon the thing Nevertheless against Barclay when he had bethought himself he kindly tells us what he means The Popes Power says he is per se and properly spiritual and therefore has reference Directly to spiritual matters as the primary object but Indirectly that is in order to Spirituals reductively and by necessary consequence to use that phrase looks upon Temporals as a secundary object to which it applys not it self but upon occasion casu or casualiter as the Canon speaks This is if you
set the power of France upon him It is not possible he should take for sufficient satisfaction for faults which in his judgment deserved all this rigor a confession that his own was his own and a gift of what was his before But the Kings resignation made amends for all and cleared scores so fully that the Pope ever after was fast to him and heartily took his part in all his necessities Then and not before Popes assumed the liberty to term the Kings of England their Vassals which is a plain acknowledgment that they understood this submission and nothing else authoriz'd them so to do Agreeable to this were the outcries remembred by M. Paris Heu Anglia Ad an 1216. Anglia hactenus Princeps Provinciarum facta es sub tributo ut Terra tua ab antiquo libera ancillaret excogitasti factus de Rege liberrimo Tributarius firmarius Vassallus servitutis c. 'T is evident the novelty of the Kings submission put these complaints into the Peoples mouths and that no such thing had formerly been heard of To conclude commend me to this fiction of Baronius for an example of zeal not according to knowledge To speak without proof in a matter of this consequence is pretty well of it self But to want proof where the nature of the thing must needs afford a thousand to fancy the Tenure of a Kingdome could lie conceal'd I know not how long and at last be discovered by his either pains or luck to be quite contrary to what was apprehended by the rest of the world which could no more be ignorant of the Tenure than of the Kingdom to imagine England subject when no person can be imagined who should subject it nor time in which it should become subject to say nothing of the manifold inconsistency of his story and contradiction to palpable evidence These are strains which as I admire in him so I hope not often to find elsewhere And for Blesensis either he knew not what he said or which is more likely those two periods have by chance or fraud crept into his writings without his privity In fine he is no good Englishman who does not acknowledge that the Kingdom of England is and at all times has been free and subject to none but God A Declaration made both with particular reference to the Pope and by those who acknowledged his Authority in spirituals And so we are come at last to the point of greatest difficulty both of its own nature and by the smartness with which 't is prest the Fact of K. John Our Author not to leave the wound he makes without cure assigns us Prescription for a remedy You have not an entire confidence in this plaister and I must confess I cannot blame you not that I think it bad but I like better to be sound and need none Most points of Law and this of Prescription as well as the rest are full of learned Quibbles and I do not love to trust our security to a moot case The rights of Kingdoms are of too great consequence to depend on the Triccum de Lege For what if some fiction of Law be pretended against our Prescription What if the Pope by some Act or other of which we never had intelligence have continued a Legal or Civil possession all the time of our Natural possession and so interrupted or voided our Prescription It is not safe in my opinion to venture our whole stock in a bottom which possibly may prove leaky Wherefore though Prescription may do well enough yet while we have in my judgment a better game to play I think it best as you say to play surer Of the Considerations propos'd in this matter with great sharpness by our Author I take these to be the most material That K. John past this grant when he had undoubted right to the Crown without any Competitor his Nephew Arthur being dead before That this right of his was then unconfin'd Magna Charta not being yet framed nor any power communicated to Barons or People or Parliaments for intermedling in the succession And that however the Deed was confirmed by his Barons who were they alone that then had any thing to do in the greater affairs of State On these because they will decide the Question I shall insist more largely and endeavour to shew He is mistaken in all three First for the consent of the Barons although this clause Communi Consilio Baronum nostrorum be inserted in the Charter yet nothing can be more apparent than that in truth there was no such thing It was so far from this that there was an express dissent Cui etiam manifeste contradictum fuit ex parte universitatis Regni reclamatum quid talia nullo modo facere potuisset per os venerabilis Stephani Can. Archiepiscopi quo non erat tunc major in Regno c. M. Westm ad an 1245. M. Paris ad an 1245. For Stephen Langton Archbishop of Canterbury protested solemnly against it and this publickly at the high Altar before all the company and in the name of the whole Kingdom This protestation of his was averred to the Popes face and that in full Council by Will. Povick or Powevick one of the Embassadors at the Council of Lyons whither he was sent to complain in behalf of the Kingdom I think it will not be denied but the Clergy in those dayes had at least as much influence on publick affairs as the rest of the Nobility and that there could be no common consent where the Head of the Clergy publickly dissented Especially considering that this protestation was not made for himself only or his Order but in the name of the whole Kingdom For it can hardly be that he should arrogate to himself to act in the name of the Kingdom without the privity of the rest and consent of so many at least as might keep his Act from appearing ridiculous But that the rest of the Nobility were as far from consenting as the Clergy is not left to guess Their sense is manifest in the next words of Povick In quod tributum nunquam Patres nostri consenserunt nec aliquo tempore consentient as Mat. Westm relates them or according to Mat. Paris In quod nunquam Patres nobilium Regni vel ipsi consenserunt nec consentiunt neque in futurum consentient c. This was said in circumstances uncapable of the suspition of falsity The man who spoke was an Embassador commissionated to speak for the Kingdom He spoke to the Pope himself in a full Council and while the memory of things was yet fresh and if he had not said true might have been convinc'd by every body perhaps in the company But neither the Pope himself who certainly knew the truth and was most concern'd in it nor any body else had anything to say against it Besides even in the daies of K. John the K. of France and his Son Lewis when Walo
claim to Ireland independently of this Grant So that whatever Pope Adrian mean't it is evident his Successors never understood his meaning gave them any right to that Island Nothing is more foolish than to catch at words and interpret the meaning by the sound when we have Actions immemorial practice and custom to guide us securely and assure us the meaning whatever it be cannot be contrary to these Allow that method once and you leave no stability even in what the good of mankind requires should be most stable the settlement of Commonwealths In short if our Kings Title to Ireland be not good there is no good Title in the world At least I know none establish't on a surer foundation And were it the question believe I could make it out But we are not now enquiring what Title our Kings have but whether the Pope have any For which reason I forbear to meddle with the Book you mention which seeks to overthrow the Title of England not to establish that of the Pope Only in short I must acknowledg I never read any thing with more grief nor so much shame The best is the Curs't Cow has wondrous short horns As ill as He means in my opinion he does more good than harm For Truth is well proved when 't is perceived it cannot be disproved but weakly And nothing is weaker than his discourse What is most material is directly contrary to History but his chief business is to bring as you say hard names to prove what is not a jot to purpose when 't is proved He casts away the greatest part of his pains upon the Punctilios required to Prescription by the Civil and Canon Laws in Suits betwixt Subject and Subject and never considers that those Punctilios and those Laws have nothing to do with the case and that the Rights of Princes are establish't upon a higher and more steady Basis than local and mutable constitutions But I have discours'd of this point before and mean not to trouble you with repetitions and that in a Question which concerns me not No better answer can nor other need Hist of the Irish Remonst p. 739. 742. be given to this Book than what was given in Ireland where an 1648. the supreme Council of the Confederat Catholicks caus'd it to be burn't at Kilkenny by the common Hangman and the National Congregation too of the Irish Clergy I mean Roman Catholick at Dublin an 1666. condemn'd it to the same fate And for the rest whoever doubts of his Majesties right to all and every part of his Dominions is a Traitor without more ado and cannot complain if he be us'd like one nor any body for him This answer I conceive may serve for Scotland too with which I shall make short work believing your Jealousies in that particular are not very pressing The only stumbling block that I know in this matter is the letter you cite of Boniface VIII to Edward I. in which Mat. Westm ad an 1301. with a phrase as unintelligible as that of Adrians Bull it is said qualiter ab antiquis temporibus Regnum Scotiae pleno jure pertinuit adhuc pertinere dignoscitur ad Ecclesiam supradictam meaning the Roman And again ex quibus nulli in dubium veniat Regnum Scotiae praelibatum ad praefatam Rom. Ecclesiam pertinere While I read this Letter and the Kings answer I was inclin'd to believe the meaning of this was that the Pope as a common Father of Christendom had right to interpose in emergent differences in Scotland as well as other places I observed that he alledges Debitum Pastoralis Officii for the reason why he meddles and respect to his seat and Person for the motive why the King should yield to his request Again the Ex quibus whence he concludes this subjection are because Scotland used not to admit a Legat not particularly directed to that Kingdom That the Arch Bishop of York could not obtain sentence at Rome in favour of the Primacy claimed by him over the Scottish Churches and that the Kingdom was converted by the Relicks of Saint Andrew These have so little to do with Civil subjection to Rome and what he mentions besides has a great deal less that I could not imagine a Pope from such Premises could draw such a conclusion Besides that the King in his answer does not take the least notice of such a sence But coming to read the answer of the Nobility to whom the King purposely left that point I percieve they understood the words as they sounded I shall therefore give their answer and make an end Your letters being read say they tam sensibus nostris admiranda quam hactenus inaudita in jis audivimus contineri Scimus enim nec ullis temporibus ipsum regnum in temporalibus pertinuit vel pertinet quovis jure ad Ecclesiam vestram supradictam and again nec etiam Reges Scoterum Regnum aliis quam Regibus Angliae subfuerunt vel subjici consueverunt Pursuant hereunto They would not consent the King should send Proctors as the Pope desir'd to Rome to make out his Title there nay they declare They would not permit the King to do it although he would it being too great a prejudice to his known Rights to submit them to Trial. If this do not satisfy I know not what will At least it did satisfy the Pope who in Pol. Virgils words statim refrixit Pol. Virgil lib. 1â— in Ed. â— ut scilicet si pertinacius contenderet ne inhoneste causa caderet and never that I know touch't upon this string more And It must satisfy all Englishmen For it was a resolution of Parliament or at least of a great Council of the Nobility which in those days was equivalent I Am come to the end of your Letter and I think of writing too Unless you do something on your side besides asking questions painful to resolve and fruitless when they are resolved you have my last it may be your full wish my first too For I cannot answer it to reason to continue sowing in barren ground and believe while so much trouble is coming on us all your self would counsel me not to run into more that of breaking my brains to no purpose There has been already said what I hoped might have wrought more favourable inclinations towards us Since the Physick works not whether by your indisposition or its own inefficacy 't is peradventure to play the foolish as well as unskilful Emperick to go on administring But yet since Losers have leave to talk permit me to make use of that liberty it may be the only one which I shall long enjoy As much reason as I have to grieve yet truly I cannot but wonder as much at your proceedings Can it possibly be your interest to keep a party alwayes in fear of the Law and by that fear prompted to wish a change in it I mistake if it be not the