Selected quad for the lemma: sense_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
sense_n	church_n	father_n	word_n	3,081	5	4.2090	3	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A41335	Weighty questions discussed I. Whether imposition of hands in separating a person to the work of the ministry be necessry?, II. Whether it be essential to the right constitution of a particular church, that the teaching elders and the members meet alwayes in one place? : whereunto is added a prediction of Mr. Daniel Rogers, minister in Essex, long before the beheading King Charles I and Arch-Bishop Laud, foretelling that they should not dye a natural death / by Giles Firmin ...	Firmin, Giles, 1614-1697.; D. R. (Daniel Rogers), 1573-1652.	1692 (1692)	Wing F969; ESTC R31512	41,078	37

Man will believe it Why then is this Text abused For my part I am for the Peoples Election provided it be carried on regularly and look upon this Imposing of Ministers by Patrons upon the People against their Consent as cursed Tyranny But for my own part giving honour to these worthy Men far more learned than my self I am not satisfyed that this 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in this Text whatever the Etymology of the word was at first must necessarily note the Act of the People listing up their Hands in Election of their Officers I rather consider how the word is used in that Age or Time when Men write 'T is well known that words in time do vary in their signification from what they did at first Among divers others we have one in Scripture Ethis l. 4. Cap. 14. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Ephis 5.4 Aristotle tells us how the Word was first used and who was 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a Man that was facetious pleasant Witty but withal cleanly in his Discourse But afterwards in his time if a Man did seem to be Witty tho' Scurrilous and base he now was 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Divers such words we have in the Latin and English Tongue Philo and Paul were Contemporaries Philo flourished in Caligula 's Time and wrote before Paul and how Philo useth the Word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Dr. Hammond has given us an account out of his Works Likewise out of Lucian and Maximus Tyrius Where the word is used of single persons so that the word did not in those times signifie the suffrages of the People and the Word in Holy Writ Acts 10.41 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 being given to God Plainly carry it that the Word doth not always intend or force the Peoples Suffrage whatever the Etymology of the Word signifles upon which Gerbard lays his stress I have not seen that piece of Mr. Selden but Mr. Ranew told me he had made it clear that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 had lost that signification these contend for many years before Christ 2dly That Rule which Henry Stephens gives us concerning 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 I take to be very true When this word governs an Accusative Case then it signisies but to create Ordain Thus he Now in this Text Acts 14.23 it doth so 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 But in Cor. 2.8.19 which these Men urge to confirm their Opinion there is no accusative Case but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 He was chosen of the Churches Let me add to this the Syrryack Version I doubt not but that Translator did understand the Etymology of the word as well as any of us now in this verse he renders the word they ●id Constitute or Ordain (a) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the very same Syriac word which is used in Tit. 1.5 Ordain Elders But in the 2 Cor. 8.19 there he uses another word to chase (b) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and doubles the Verb as the Hebrews do which the Latin Translation gives thus deligendo delectus sit So the vulgar Translation Constituissent 3dly The Gramatical Construction is more to me than a Criticism when Paul and Barnabas returned to Antioch v. 22. they returned 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Confirming the Souls c. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 E●horting them to continue c. These two were Paul and Bar●abas's Acts then 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Paul and Barnabas lifted up their hands if the word must signifie so from the Etymology of the word this was as much their Act as the ●ormer Let any School-Boy construe it tho' the Boy can tell you the Etymology of the word Then we shall have a new ●a●hion of ordaining by Ministers fasting praying and listing up their ha●ds ●esides for the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 how will that agree with the Peoples listing up their hands what ●air sense shall we make of it But if we take the word as we see it was used in that time and as H. Stephens saith if it governs an accusative case as it doth in this place th●n the Sense runs smooth Paul and Barnabas did Constitute or ordain them i. e. the Disciples in the sormer verse Elders in every Church c. 4thly It is certain the Greek Fathers did use their word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for Ordination Surely they understood their own Mother tongue as well as we I have observed Chrysostem in all those Texts where Imposition of hands is mentioned he useth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Gerhard confesseth that Chrysostom and other Ecclesiastical Writers do so use it And tho he stick to the Etymology of the word to maintain the Peoples right of Election yet Ordination he saith must be with Imposition of hands therefore he saith in the next word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 demum sit mentio in their praying they Imposed hands Thus he As to these Fathers who thus use the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 had they been against the Election of the People then I should have suspected their Integrity in their use of the Word but the People then had their Election of their Bishops and Presbyters And one thing I took notice of in the 5th Century I read of one Syn●si●s a Man of very good parts who was to be Ordained Bishop of Syrene But when he should be Ordained he did not believe the Res●rrection of the Body yet the People who had elected him were so earnest to have him Ordained that Theophilus Alexand. did Ordain him hoping he might believe it afterwards as he did When I read it I thought what a difference there was between those times and ours they could Ordain a Bishop who did not believe one of the Articles of the Apostles Creed as it is called but the Church of England could cast out about eighteen hundred Ministers but for what was it because they did not assent to the Doctrine of the Church of England I heard Mr. Harmar should tell Bishop Reynolds if you can maintain the Discipline of the Church the Dissenters must maintain the Doctrine of the Church of England was it because they were scandalous in their Conversation was it because they were Idle and lazy was it because they did not worship God according to His Word Blessed be God they could charge us with none of these things for what then Let them answer that when they come to appear before their and our Judges They were Church-Men and Bishops that made that Act against us SECT III. NOw to your Reason why you Ordain without Imposition of Hands that which you chie●●y insist upon is this There is neither Scripture Precept no● President for ordinary Officers of one Church to impose Hands in the Ordination of an Officer in another Church Answ First What need of such Presidents while Apostles and Evangelists were living Secondly This Argument of yours plainly implies that there is Scripture Precept and President to ordain in another Church so it be without Imposition of

administer it 4. This concerns the first Reformers We receive our Ordination from godly and learned men who hate and have cast off whatever is Romish but not the Holy S●ripture because they pass through Rome to us As to the Text you quote Phil 3.16 When eunto we have already attained c. this is nothing to our Case nor will it heal Several there were who did believe in Christ and embraced the Gospel but were not so clear in the total Abolition of the Ceremonial ●aw as Rom. 14. shews But however since they had believed in Christ and embraced the Gospel walk according to that Rule unto which you have attained God will reveal more in time The Case is nothing like You have attained to Fasting and Prayer in Ordination but not to Imposition of Hands But Fasting and Prayer we use and may use in twenty Cases but these Cases do not make twenty distinct Ordinances though we Fast and Pray It is but one Ordinance But Separation to the Work of the Ministry is a distinct Ordinance Secondly They were to walk by the same Rule But by what Rule do you walk for the Rule is with I●position of Hands according to which you do not walk SECT IV. AFter I had done with this Brother there came to my Hand a little Book put out by another Brother who writes thus All Church-Officers are made by Ordination and Ordained alike is there no difference between Acts 6.6 and Acts 3.3 and that Ordination is not Imposition of Hands and if the most be made of it it 's but a Ceremony annexed which is now obsolete It 's But a Ceremony Whose Ceremony is it Did Man or God Institute it If it be God's methinks it is not com●●y for a Creature to cast a slighting But upon any of his Institutions What was the whole Ceremonial Law yea What is Water in Baptism Bread and Wine in the Lords Supper setting by the Authority of him who did Institute them the Image of a King stamped upon a Farthing tho' but a Farthing who dare refuse it Though it be but a Ceremony yet being God's Institution and Command there is 1. Necessitas Praecepti anne●●ed to it and it is Disobedience to his Institution to Omit it The Spirit is pleased three times to set forth the whole Work of Ordination by this Ceremony as you call it alone 2. There is ●●c●ssitas Medii in this sense viz To the sending forth of a Person to Preach and Administer all Ordinances in God's House with Authority Dr. Owen rightly calls it The Symbol of Auth●itati●● O●●i●nation Our Bre●●hren of Scotland call it a Medi●m of Co●●●nicating Auth●●ity to the Person Or●●ained When the Presbytery Praying and Imposing Hands do in the Name of the Lord Jesus the King of his Church Separate a Man to the Work of the Ministry the Act carries Authority in it By the Imposing their Hands they do Impose the Charge the Burden the Work of the Ministry upon the Person in the Name of the Lord. Persons in Authority do in the Name of the Lord Convey Authority The Apostle bids Timothy 2 Tim 2.2 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Com●●● the things c. the Persons must be first 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 fit to Teach other 〈◊〉 Men before he Commits them this is plain But then how doth Terothy Commit the thines to them when he finds them such 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈…〉 Commendatur depositum ●●●andum suo tempor● red●e●●●●● Ear●●us So the Sitia●k D●●suit in sidem alle●jus That it is an Act of Authority Luk. 12.48 is plain Timothy does not Commit them by Election that is the Act of the People you tell us he could not do it by Conserring Gifts he had no such Power Besides he must see they be such before he Commits them He did not do it by Prayer for them any might have so Committed as well as T●mothy and Prayer is no Act of Authority but when T●●●●●y Prays and Im●●ses Hands to separate them to the Work of the Ministry which Pa●● charged him not to do it s●ddenly 1 Tim. 5.22 Now he Commits them Now Separation to the Work is seen and not before So that when the Presbytery do 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 they do 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 After I had done I met with Mr. Gillesp●●s upon the Text Mis●tl p. 52. which he saith is a considerable Text against the So●inians and Anabaptists What work these Gifted Brethren have made in Churches we see to our shame which this Practice of our Brethren and crying up Oisted Brethrens Preaching have not a little strengthned to the bringing in of Consusion and Disorder into the Church as we see at this day to the shame of Reformation and he gives the sence of the Text as I have done for Ordination which in another place he saith must be with Imposition of Hands As to his saying that it is a Coremony now Obso●ete I thought the Word Obtolete did connote a thing out of Date out of Use worn thred-bare but Imposition of Hands in Ordination hath been used in the Jewish Church and the Christian Church in all Ages to this day among all Churches so that if it be obsolete it must be only among some few Independents of yesterdays standing and is this sufficient to make it obsolete One Word about Popular Election because I see it is that which gives the Essence to a Minister in some Mens Opinion I am for the Peoples Election provided it be regularly carryed on but that it makes a Minister I cannot yield to that Mr. Eliot and those I mention'd before Preach to the Indians God works with their Ministry brings some to the Faith in Christ they are formed into a Church they choose Mr. Eliot * Suppose it had been so to be their Minister so then their Election makes Mr. Eliot a Minister is not this pretty Logick the Effect give the Essence to the Cause If the People be visible Saints they are ordinarily the Effect of the Ministry tho' not of that particular Minister whom they choose it may be as Ministers are said to be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Workers together with God 1 Cor. 3.6 2 Cor. 6.1 Instruments in his Hand 2. If the Election of a Deacon do not give the Essence to a Deacon then the Election of a Minister doe not give the Essence to a Minister but the Antecedent is true Ergo. Unto all Church-Officers Election gives the Essence as they say and no wonder if the People be the first Subject of the Power of the Keys as it is in these Mens Opinion then if it doth not give the Essence to a Deacon then not to another Officer nay much less to a Minister for the People may be more able to judge of an Officer to serve Tables than they are able to judge of the Abilities and Soundness of a Man to be chosen a Minister But it did