Thus farre the most of their reasons doe carry if they have any force at all Secondly the Antecedent may well be denyed all that the Apostle speaks to the Collossians indefinitely must not be expounded of every one of the people This precept of speaking to Archippus could not be better performed then by the Presbytery whereof Archippus was a Member Thirdly the consequence is invalid They might admonish therefore excommunicate Every admonition is not in order to censure it is a morall duty incumbent to every one to admonish lovingly and zealously his Brother when there is cause it is a sinne and disobedience to God if we let sinne lye upon any whom we by our counsell and admonition can helpe but to conclude that we have power to Excommunicate every man whom in duty wee ought to admonish is an absurdity which none of the Separatists will well digest Fifthly From Revel 2.14.20 The whole Churches of Pergamus and Tâ—yatira are rebuked for suffering wicked Hereticks to live among them uncensured Ergo it was the duty of all the Church to censure them Answer First the conclusion is for a power to the people to censure which our Brethren now deny Secondly The Antecedent may be denied for the fault of that impious Toleration is not laid upon the whole Church but expresly upon the Angell Thirdly the consequence is not good The whole Church might be reproved for a neglect of their duty in not inciting and incouraging their Officers to censure these Hereticks but a reproofe for this neglect inferreth not that it was the peoples duty to execute these censures Thus much our Brethren will not avow Sixthly They reason from Revel 4.4 The foure and twenty Elders sate on Thrones in white Robes with Crownes on their heads Ergo Every one of the Church hath a power of judging as Kings with Crownes sitting on their Thrones Answer First the conclusion ever inferres the full Tenet of the Separatists Secondly the consequence is very weake except many things be supposed which will not be granted without strong proofes first that this Type is argumentative for the matter in hand secondly that this place is relative to the Church on earth rather then to that in heaven thirdly that these Elders doe typifie the people rather then the Officers fourthly that the Thrones and Crownes import a Kingly Office in every Christian to be exercised in Church censures upon their brethren more then the white robes doe inferre the Priestly Office of every Christian to be exercised in Preaching the Word and celebrating the Sacraments Seventhly They reason from Galatian 5.1.13 the Galatians were called unto Liberty whereto they behoved to stand fast as to a priviledge purchased by Christ his blood Ergo Every one of them had a power to cut off their Officers Answer This is the Scripture whereupon our Brethren have lately fallen and make more of it then of any other I confesse their reasoning from it seemes to me the most unreasonable throwing of the holy Scripture that I have readily seene in any Disputant The whole scope of the place carrying evidentty a liberty from the burthen and servitude of the Law Their fathering upon it a new and unheard of sense to wit a priviledge of Church censures without any authority or proper power therein is very strange they cannot produce any Scripture where the word Liberty hath any such sense and though they could yet to give the word that sense in this place where so clearely it is referred to a quite diverse matter it seemeth extremely unreasonable Eightly Thus they reason The whole Congregation of Israel had power to punish Malefactors as in the case of Gibea in the message of Israel to the two Tribes halfe also the people had power to rescue from the hands of the Magistrates as in the case of Jonathan from Saul Answer The consequence is null for the practise of the Israelites in their civill state is no sufficient rule for the proceedings of the Church of the New Testament Our Brethren would beware of such Arguments least by them they entertaine the jealousie which some professe they have of their way fearing it be builded upon such principles as will set up the common people not onely above their Officers in the Church but also above their Magistrate in the State That it draw in a popular government and Ochlocracie both in Church and State alike Ninthly They thus reason Who ever doe elect the Officers they have power to ordaine them and upon just cause to depose and excommunicate them But the people do elect their Officers Ergo. Answer The major is denied for first election is no act of power suppose it to be a priviledge yet there is no Jurisdiction in it at all but Ordination is an act of Jurisdiction it is an authoritative mission and putting of a man into a spirituall Office The people though they have the right and possession by Scripturall practise of the one yet they never had either the right or the possession of the other Secondly suppose the Maxime were true whereof yet I much doubt unlesse it be well limited Ejus est destituere cuius instituere that they who give authority have power to take it backe againe yet we deny that the people who elect give any authority or office at all their election is at most but an Antecedent Sine quo non it is the Presbytery onely who by their Ordination doe conferre the Office upon the elect person Finally They argue No act of Jurisdiction is vâ—lid without the peoples consent Ergo to every act of Jurisdiction the peoples presence and concurrence is necessary Answer The antecedent in many cases is false a gracious Orthodoxe Minister may be ordained a Pastor to a Hereticall people against their consent an Hereticall Pastor who hath seduced all his flocke may be removed from them against their passionate desires to keepe him but the Consequent is more vitious where ever consent is requisite their presence much lesse authoritative concurrence is not necessary all the souldiers are not present at the Counsell of War and yet the decrees of that Counsell of War can not be executed without the consent and action of the Souldiers every member of the Church of Antioch was not present at the Synod of Jerusalem diverse members of the Independent Congregations are absent from many Church determinations to the which upon their first knowledge they doe agree CHAP. X. Independencie is contrary to the Word of God THe Divine Wisedome which found it expedient for man before the Fall not to live alone hath made it much more needfull for man to live in Society after his weakning by sinne Woe to him that is alone for if he fall who shall raise him up The best wits of themselves are prone to errors and miscarriages and left alone are inclined to run on in any evill way they have once begunne But engagement in
esteem in the hearts of the people they would be sure still to father their opinions upon them and say I hold nothing but what I had from such and such a man Ibid. p. 65. She pretended she was of Master Cottons judgement in all things M Williams Examination p. 12. Some few yeers since he was upon the point to separate from the Churches there as legal Ibidem p. 33. How could I possibly be ignorant as he seems to charge me of their estate when being from first to last in Fellowship with them an Officer amongst them had private and publike agitations concerning their estate with all or most of their Ministers N Short story Preface p. 7. By this time they had to patronise them some of the Magistrates and some men eminent for Religion Parts and Wit Ibidem p. 25. Master Wheelwright had taught them that the former Governour and some of the Magistrates then were friends of Christ and Free-grace but the present were enemies The former Governour never stirred out but attended by the Serjeants with Halberts or Carrabines but the present Governour was neglected Ibid. p. 35. After that she had drawn some of eminent place and parts to her party whereof some profited so well as in a few moneths they out-went their Teacher Ibidem p. 33. Vpon the countenance which it took from some eminent persons her opinions began to hold up their heads in the Court of Justice N 2. Ibidem p. 32. It was a wonder upon what a sudden the whole Church of Boston some few excepted were become her new converts and infected with her opinions Ibid. Preface p. 7. In the Church of Boston most of these Seducers lived Ibid. p. 36. The Court laid to her charge the reproach she had cast upon the Ministery in this Countrey saying That none of them did preach the Covenant of Free-grace but Master Cotton She told them that there was a wide difference between Master Cottons Ministery and theirs and that they could not hold forth a Covenant of Free-grace because they had not the Seal of the Spirit Ibidem p. 50. All the Ministers consented to this except their Brother the Teacher of Boston Ibid. p. 52. Master Wheelwright being present spoke nothing though he well discerned that the judgement of the most of the Magistrates and near all the Ministers closed with the affirmative Ibidem p. 21. Albeit the Assembly of the Churches had confuted and condemned most of these new opinions and Master Cotton had in publike view consented with the rest yet the Leaders in these Erroneous wayes stood still to maintain their new Light Master Wheelwright also continued his preaching after his former manner and Mistresse Hutchinson her wonted meetings and exercises and much offence was still given by her and others in going out of the ordinary Assemblies When Mr. Wilson the Pastor of Boston began any exercise it was conceived by the Magistrate that the case was now desperate and it was determined to suppresse them by Civil Authority O Apologetical Narration p. 5. We had likewise the fatal miscarriages and shipwracks of the Separation whom you call Brownists as Land-marks to forewarn us of these Rocks and Shelves they run upon Cottons Letter to Williams pag. 12. I said that God had not prospered the way of Separation because he hath not blessed it either with peace among themselves or with growth of grace The Lord Jesus never delivered that way of Separation to which they bear witnesse nor any of his Apostles after him nor of his Prophets before him We do not come forth to help them against Jehovah this were not to help Jehovah but Satan against him We cannot pray in Faith for a blessing upon their Separation which we see not to be of God nor to lead to him It is little comfort to the true Servants of Christ that such inventions of men are multiplied P Answer to the thirty two Questions p. 7. Whether is the greater number these that are admitted to Church-Communion or these that are not we cannot certainly tell Q 1. Plain dealing p. 73. Here such confessions and professions are required both in private and publike both by men and women before they be admitted that three parts of the people of the Countrey remain out of the Church so that in short time most of the people will remain unbaptised Q 2. Williams of the name Heathen p. 6. Nations protesting against the Beast no Papists but Protestants may we say of them that they or any of them may be called in true Scripture sence Heathens that is the Nations or Gentiles in opposition to the people of God which is the onely Holy Nation Such a departure from the Beast in a false constitution of National Churches if the bodies of Protestant Nations remain in an unregenerate estate Christ hath said they are but as Heathens and Publicans Q 3. Plain dealing p. 21. There hath not been any sent forth by any Church to learn the Natives language or to instruct them in our Religion first because they say they have not to do with them being without except they come to hear and learn English R Williams of the name Heathen p. 10. For our New-England parts I can speak it confidently I know it to have been easie for my self long ere this to have brought many thousands of these Natives yea the whole Countrey to a far greater Antichristian conversion then ever was heard of in America I could have brought the whole Countrey to have observed one day in seven I adde to have received Baptism to have come to a stated Church meeting to have maintained Priests and Forms of Prayer and a whole form of Antichristian worship in life and death S Ibid. p. 11. Wo be to me if I call that conversion to God which is indeed the subversion of the souls of millons in Christendom from one false worship to another Williams Key unto the language of America p. 9. To which I could easily have brought the Countrey but that I was perswaded and am that Gods way is first to turn a soul from its idols both of heart worship and conversation before it is capable of worship to the true God T Short story p. 32. Many good souls were brought to waite for this immediate revelation then sprung up also that opinion of the indwelling of the person of the Holy Ghost Ibidem Preface p. 13. That their own revelations of particular events were as infallible as the Scripture V Short story Preface pag. 2. Sin in a childe of God must never trouble him Trouble in conscience for sins of Commission or for neglect of duties sheweth a man to be under a Covenant of Works X Short story Preface p. 2. A Christian is not bound to the Law as the rule of his conversation Y Ibid. p. 3. No Christian must be pressed to duties of Holinesse Z Short story Preface p. 13. Their Leaders fell into more hideous delusions as that the souls of
a do these two divided Churches are brought together it may be much doubted if their Union shall long continue Certainly it seems not to be so cordial as that of the two lately divided and now reunited Churches aâ— Amsterdam For among these of Roterdam not onely the grounds of the old division do evidently remain but also the Seeds of a new breach do appear above the ground The liberty of Prophecying which Master Simpsons now Master Simons Congregation did require is not obtained in the way they desired it for they are not permitted to Prophecy in the Congregation nor upon the Sabbath day nor in the place of publike meeting Onely in a private place on a week day where some of the Church who please do meet they have liberty to exercise their gifts On the other part what Master Bridges now Mr. Parks Church did require I mean a Presbytery for Government in the Congregation cannot be obtained For however they professe the lawfulnesse and conveniency of Ruling Elders and of a Consistory for Discipline yet it hath so faln out that for many yeers they have had none neither are like in haste to have unlesse the grumbling of Master Parks and his friends threatning a new breach do force them at last to the use of that Ordinance But that which threatneth not a Schisme alone but a total dissolution of that Congregation is the Pest of Anabaptism which begins of late much to infect them P It is true the Pastors do their best to reclaim all their members from that Errour and when they finde themselves not able to prevail give good words and assurances of a full and Brotherly Toleration for as they scruple not to give the hand of Fellowship to the Brownists of Amsterdam Q so will they not cast out any from their Church for denying of Pedobaptism if the dissenting and erring party be pleased to remain peaceably amongst them But here is the pitty when the Independents have declared their greatest readinesse to tolerate and entertain in their Churches both the rigid Separatists and the Anabaptists R yet the most of those are unwilling to stay but are peremptory to separate from the Independent Churches as more corrupt then that they with a good conscience can abide in them though never so much tolerated and cherished As for their Church at Arnhem howsoever their small intercourse with others during their abode in that remote corner and their taciturnity of their own affairs makes their proceedings to lie under a Cover yet so much of their wayes is come to light upon divers occasions as will not be very inductive and alluring of indifferent spirits to tred in their footsteps First We finde them greater admirers of themselves and proclaimers of their own excellency then is the custome of modest and wise though the best and greatest men They think it not enough to anoint their Masters and Friends of New-England with excessive praises as men who have not been matched by any of the Saints since the dayes of Abraham S but they are also bold to sound out to themselves in Print in the ears of both Houses of Parliament a commendation much above the possible merit of any so small a number of men in the whole world The Synod of Roterdam they equal to the most solemn National Assemblies of either or both Kingdoms T This exceeding great worth upon whose head must it fall but either alone or far most principally upon the Members of the Church of Arnhem For that Synod did consist of no other but the two Doctors of that Church and the two Elders thereof together with Master Bridge and the Members of his Church These last were present in that Synod as persons challenged and guilty of a grievous scandal so to them in that action but a small praise can be due Wherefore the supereminent Excellency of that meeting must fall upon the Commissioners of Arnhem the onely persons which in that meeting were void of offence and free from challenges To themselves therefore it is alone or at least above all others that they ascribe the superlative praises of that Synod In that same place they stick not to take to themselves the honour of so great sincerity as any flesh in the world not onely hath at this present but possibly can attain in any following Age V We wonder the lesse to hear them canonize their Colleague Master Archer after his death among the most precious persons who ever trod upon the earth X This self-overvaluing seems to be the ground why they cry out of their very moderate afflictions as of great calamities they ingeminate to the Parliament over and over their persecution their poverty their miserable exile Y when they who understand the case give assurance that not one of Ten of the most prosperous Ministers of the whole world in the time of their greatest Sunshine do live in more wealth ease honour and all worldly accommodations then these poor miserable exiles did enjoy all the time of that which they call their banishment Z My next observation upon that Church is that an humour of innovating at least if not a spirit of errour did much predomine among them To passe by that wantonnesse of wit which in their Books and Discourses doth much appear whereby they attribute without fear to a number of Scriptures such new and strange senses as before them were never heard of We finde them pleasing themselves in divers Doctrines which no Reformed Church doth assert for truth yea their own Brethren both of New-England and of Roterdam and of Amsterdam do reject as Errours They are not content with some few little touches of Chiliasm which yet Master Cotton tells us are but fleshly imaginations AA But they run themselves over head and ears in the deepest gulph of that old Heresie The glimpse of Sions glory Preached at a Fast in Holland by T. G. which common report without any contradiction that I have heard declares to be Thomas Goodwin averrs That Independency is a beginning or at least a neer antecedent of Christs Kingdom upon Earth BB That within five yeers Christ is to come in the flesh CC and by a Sword of Iron to kill with his own hand the most of his enemies DD and thereafter to passe over a thousand yeers EE as a worldly Monarch FF with his Saints Who shall live with him all that time in all sorts of fleshly delights GG Master Archer the onely Pastor that ever they had whose praises they sound forth so loud in their Apologetick would perswade us of the same and more grosse stories HH Master Burrows in his late Sermons upon Hosea runs in the same way II. Neither is this all the new Light that did shine forth in the Candlestick of Arnhem but there also Master Archer giveth forth for the comfort of his hearers without the reproof so far as yet we have heard of any of his Colleagues
grief nor can we chuse but to be covered with confusion and shame when we are forced to taste the most bitter fruits of our Brethrens principles though denied by them in words yet ingenuously avowed by their friends in Amsterdam and constantly practised in New-England to the uttermost of their power E 1. they must oppose the building of a Church any where in the world if it be not after their patern That as in New-England no Presbyterial Church on any condition may be tolerated so in Old-England no Presbyterial Church must ever be erected if all their skill and industry can hinder it Such a Reformation though expresly according to the National Covenant to them is a deformation which they cannot wish much lesse pray for or endeavour but with all their strength must crosse it as a corruption unsufferable where they have power It s plain and demonstrable that their Principles and Way have forced them to oppose the Reformation in hand and will ever force them so to do till they lay new grounds and be changed in the sence of their erroneous minde However the actions of our Brethren did proclame loud enough their intentions to delay so long as they were able the setting up of any Government yet when this evil is become so grosse and palpable that all in words do disclaim it and they who most do procure it do most in shew abominate it it seems a little strange that some of their Divines are now begun in Print expresly to own it and in Print to perswade the delay of this work E 2. It must be a heavie guiltinesse to be a powerful instrument of keeping two so great Kingdoms as England and Ireland without the Fold and Hedge of all Ecclesiastike Discipline for divers yeers together especially in the time of a devouring War How many thousand souls have perished by this means in their ignorance and profanesse who in a wel-governed Church might have been reclaimed Unto this great misery another great unhappinesse addeth much weight Beside their marring of the begun-Reformation they have occasioned the perishing of some millions of poor souls by the unheard-of multiplication of Heresies and Schisms F I believe no place in the world for this mischief is now parallel to London Amsterdam long ago is justified that City hath transmitted hither the infamy of her various Sects Now upon whom shall this blame be fastne◠〈◊〉 It is well known that the Sects at the time of the Independents return hither were inconsiderable in regard of that which now they are by their means It was their work to bring people into distaste with the way of all the Reformed Churches this by their labours was made vile in the eyes of the multitude and people once having leaped over that wall within the which all the Protestant Churches have dwelt in safety by all the skill of their first misleaders could not be holden from running farther away as in New-England Independency was a mother to Anabaptism Antinomianism Familism and many more Heresies We need not wonder to see it any where bring forth the like Brood But hereof indeed do we wonder that in so short a time this Way should change as it were its nature so farre to the worse In Holland and New-England Independency so soon as it had found and discerned the young brats of Anabaptists Antinomians or Familists in her bosom it was her custom incontinently to fling them away as Bastards But Independency at London hath learned not onely to beget but to cherish such children when they are brought forth Not onely the Churches of New-England but the very Amsterdam-Brownists have ever been zealous to cast out of their Society the Heretikes and Schismatickes we speak of but here in London it is far otherwise We have heard that many of the Independents here so soon as they have fallen into Anabaptism or other Errours of the time have quickly of their own accord run away and separated from the Independent Congregations as polluted as false as no Churches But that ever any of the London-Independents did cast out of their Churches any man or woman for Anabaptism Antinomianism or any other Errour we never heard By the contrary Independency here is become an uniting Principle it hath kept our Brethren in the midst of all their bitter Jarrs with the Reformed Churches abroad and the Presbyterians at home in a great entirenesse and familiarity with all the Sectaries that pleased to draw neer them They have by their debates and dissents laboured to hinder the Assembly from giving the least advice to the Parliament to take any order with the most absurd of the Sectaries when complained upon for their greatest Enormities yea they have preached and printed divers Tractates for a full liberty to all Sects G That so soon they should have run thus far out we could never have believed if our own eyes and ears had not been our perswaders As for the third Apple we observed on their Tree The endangering of the State it is no lesse visible then any of the former If there were no more but the keeping of the Church-wounds so long open the health yea the life of the State might justly be feared from this ground alone by all who know the sympathy of these Twins and the inseparable interest of these two much-united Companions But beside the keeping of the Church unsetled the growth of Schisms how pregnant a cause it is of a States ruine we need no other witnesse then the declaration of their Brethren in New-England H We are made here to believe that the Anabaptists and the Antinomians are so tame and harmlesse creatures that there is no danger of any violence from their innocent hands If it be so the General Court at New-Boston hath been extremely unjust who professed their wel-grounded apprehension of a total subversion not onely of all their Churches but of their Civil State also from a far lesse number of these Sectaries then are here among us and avowed to the world their necessity to banish out of that Countrey the leaders of that dangerous Faction whether men or women whether Church or States-men and to disarm many of their followers upon much much smaller provocations and lighter grounds of suspition then by the words and deeds of their kinsfolks have been offered lately unto this State I What more might be said of the London-Independents practices upon the State readily may come to the world ere long by a much better Pen. I for causes at this time abstain totally from writing on this subject The Testimonies A Antap. p. 51. I believe upon good grounds and so do many more you never took any great content or joy in the thoughts of the Assembly but have done your utmost to delay it and to put it by God knows your hearts and men some of your speeches about the meeting of this Assembly But seeing it could not be helped and that you could
eeeeee Secondly doe not their principles hold out of the Church and deprive of all Christian consolation which flowes from any Church priviledge the farre greater part if not absolutely all Kings and Princes that are this day in the Christian world and have been since the dayes of the Gospel or ever are likely to be upon earth to the worlds end how exceeding few of all that are or have been Members of Parliament of either House of all that have been or are Magistrates in England if their principles might be put in practice would be admitted to the Lords Table or yet their children be baptised or themselves be reputed Christians and Members of any lawfull Church Thirdly of these exceeding few Kings Princes Peeres Commoners and Magistrates of the Land which they could take into their Congregations how many could have assurance to live any long time in a Christian condition as Members of a Church according to their principles Since they tell us that they are to Excommunicate without any delay the greatest Kings for any fault either in beliefe or life which doth subject the poorest servants to censure how many and frequent these faults may be it is hard to judge but the worst is when the greatest Kings and the chiefe Members of Parliament without any respect to their dignity are cast out of the Church for themselves and their children by the peevishnesse or errour or malice of a few in a small Congregation they have no meanes under heaven to redresse themselves of their injury they and theirs must live as Pagans out of the Church till they who did cast them out be perswaded and become willing to take them in should all the Divines all the Assemblies all the Churches of their Dominions see cleerly as the light their notorious wrong yet there were no possibility to helpe it by any mortall hand till the injurious Congregation it selfe of its own accord should be pleased to repaire it Fourthly they permit none to be Magistrates where they have power not so much as to be a member of their smallest civill Courts except they be fully for their way and be admitted members of their Church as it hath ever been their practice in New-England to this day but the Magistrates they admit of who are of their minde they debase their power so low as to suspend it all on the will and pleasure of the promiscuous multitude not only to limit the Soveraignty of Princes within the bounds of their just Lawes and to confine them unto the Counsell of their Parliaments but to bring both them and Parliaments and all Magistrates to their first originall and Makers to the free will of these whom they use to stile the prophane multitude ffffff Fifthly have any of the Reformed Churches now for an hâ—ndred yeares and above given to Magistrates such occasion to feare an unjust insurrection as they in the few yeares of their being have already furnished To passe by all their threatnings in this time of confusion gggggg while their strength is yet inconsiderable and their mighty endeavours to get Armes into their hand to enable themselves with the evident hazard of the whole Isle to doe what they please by force hhhhhh Let men only look over to the fruits of their principles in New-England not many yeares agoe there upon a very small and so farre as I know very groundlesse suspition to have somewhat of their Government altered by the King contrary to their Patent they did quickly purchase and distribute Armes among all their people and exact of every one an Oath for the defence of their Patent against all impugners whosoever Mr Williams opposition to this Oath as he alledgeth was the cheife cause of his banishment iiiiii What principles could these be that moved the same people a little after to doe and say such things for which their Magistrates did disarme so many of their Church members not only elsewhere but even at Boston upon fear of an apparent insurrection for the killing of the principall Magistrates and overturning the whole state of that Countrey kkkkkk 1. Few Magistrates will hereafter confide in these principles which saved not the Governour and generall Court of New-England from extreme danger by the members of Mr Cottons Congregation at New Boston Sixthly doe the Independents principles give to the Magistrate any Ecclesiastick power at all will they submit to his civill power in any Ecclesiastick affaires will they be hindered by the Magistrates sentence unlesse it be executed with violence to erect Congregations within his Dominions at their own pleasure will their principles permit them upon the command of King and Parliament to refuse to take into their Congregations the members of other Parish Churches without a dismision or take and admit upon the Magistrates command within their number any whom they account unfit for membership or to recall for the Magistrates pleasure any of their Church censures have they not very lately declared to the Parliament that they esteem all matters of Religion free and exempt from their sword and power That all matters both of worship and doctrine that all things of the mind as they speak or matters of opinion and all matters of outward forme wherein uniformity is required according to our Covenant are so farre to be ruled by every mans own conscience his own light and reason that the Parliament is not in any such matters to interpoâ—e their power whither this bee the true sence of their openly avowed and repeated letters to the Parliament it selfe let every intelligent man consider who reads the words kkkkkk 2 Seventhly are any of the Reformed Churches or any Churches or persons of the whole world so injurious to Magistrates as their principles force them to be who â—poyl Christian Kings and Parliaments of their whole Legislative power they will have us to beleeve as good Divinity that it is not only unlawfull for Church-assemblies to make Ecclesiastick Canons but that it is alike unlawfull for any Prince or State to make a Civill Law llllll That the placing of a Legislative power in Kings or Parliaments is to usurp the property and prerogative of God mmmmmm 1 These Principles cannot be very favourable to the State which at one stroke annihilate all the Acts of Parliament that now are in force either in this or any other Kingdom and make it impossible if they were beleeved to have any more in any place of the earth to the worlds end Look back upon what I have cited from the chiefe of the Brownists writings I grant the New English polishers of Brownism doe not expresse their Tenets in tearms so hugely grosse yet see how neare they come to them in substance when they tell us that no Magistrate may make any Lawes about the Bodies Lands Goods Liberties of the Subject which are not according to the Lawes and Rules of Scripture Scripture being given to men for a perfect rule as well
time to Mr Calamy and pretends some reasons to borrow it for awhile but after he had it he carries it away into Yorkshire that so upon occasion of complaints of the breach of the agreement when we would have consulted with that paper it was gone and Mr Nye keeps it to this day and having been moved to restore it His answer is it is at Hull amongst other papers b Apollonius Letter to the 5 Apologists the 3 of May 1644. Hasce quaestiones ad vos reverendi viri transmitto de iisdem sententias vestras quaerens ob mutuam nostram fidem charitatem serio vos oro ut non detrectetis sincere dilucide accurate absque Rhetorici apparatus diverticulis declarare quid vos fratres illi quibuscum societatem vestram Ecclesiasticam colitis de hisce sentiant quoniam meae fidei ab Ecclesiis Christi id commissum est Spero vos ex timore dei charitate erga nos fratres vestros absque ullo pretextu sententias vestras hac de re declaraturos idque quam cito fieri potest urgent enim Ecclesiae nostrae ut opus hoc maturem This zealous adjuration hath not to this day drawn from any of them any declaration c Apol. Nar. p 30. A relation of our judgments in the points of difference about Church-Government we reserve unto the more proper season d Keyes Preface p. 6. Only we crave leave of the reverend Author to declare that we assent not to all expressions scattered up and down or to all and every assertion interwoven in it yea nor to all the grounds or allegations of Scriptures nor should we in all things perhaps have used the same termes to expresse the same materialls by e Apol. Nar. p. 10. A second principle we carried along with us in all our resolution was not to make our present judgement and practice a binding law unto our selves for the future and therefore in a jealousie of our selves wee kept this reseâ—ve to alâ—er and retract though not lightly what ever should be discovered to be taken up out of a misunderstanding of the rule which principle we wish were next to that most supreame enacted as the most sacred Law of all others f Cottons Keyes published by Goodwin and Nye p. 49. In what sence the Church of a particular Congregation is the first subject of the power of the Keyes in the same sence it is Independent and none other we taking the first subject and the Independent subject to be all one Answer to the 32 questions p. 46. For the matter of Independency we confesse the Church is not so Independent but it ought to depend upon â—hrist But for Dependency upon men or other Churches or other Subordination unto them in regard of Church-Government and power we know not of any such appointed by Christ and his Word The Churches were not Dependent and Subordinate to others but all of them absolutely free and Independent Burtons Vindication p. 42. We are not so ashamed of the Title of Independency as utterly to disclame it and that for two reasons first for distinction sake between us and that which you call Presbyteriall Government The second is because this word Independent is to signifie that wee hold all particular Churches of Christ to be of equall authority and none to have Iurisdiction over another but each Church is under Christs Goverments as the sole head King Lord Law-Giver thereof g Apol. Nar. p. 22. We doe professedly judge the Calvinian Reformed Churches of the first Reformation from out of Popery to stand in need of a further Reformation themselves h Ibid. p. 19. Wee think we give more to the Magistrate then the principles of the Presbyteriall Government will suffer them to yeeld i Ibid. p. 24. Wee doe here publikely professe we believe the truth to lie and consist in a middle way betwixt that which is falsely charged on us Brownisme and that which is the contention of these times the Authoritative Presbyteriall Government Preface to the Keyes p. 5. We are yet neither afraid nor ashamed to make profession that the substance of this briefe extract is that very middle way betwixt that which is called Brownisme and the Presbyteriall Government k Vide supra Chap. 2. B and R 2. l Prynnes Discovery p. 29. Iohn Lilbourn in his Answer to 9 Arguments p. 4. writes the Church of England is a true whoorish mother and you are one of her base begotten and bastardly children I say the Church of England neither is nor never was truly married to Christ in that espousall band which his true Churches are and ought to be but is one of Anti-christs Nationall whâ—orish Churches your Church is false and Anti-christian the Ministers of the Church of England are not true Ministers of Christ but false Ministers of Anti-christ ibid. p. 31. This language and opinion of his concerning our English Church and Ministry is seconded by most Independents in their late Pamphlâ—ts m Mr Robinson hath written a whole Treatise upon this subject n Answer to the 32 questions p. 27. If we were in England we should willingly joyne in some parts of Gods true worship and namely in hearing the Word where it is truly preached yea though wee doe not know them to be true Churches For some worship as prayer and preaching and hearing the Word is not peculiar to Church-Assemblies but may bee performed in other meetings Cottons letter examined p. 43. The second thing which Mr Cotton himselfe hath professed concerning English Preachers is that although the Word yet not the Seales may be received from them because saith he there is no Communion in hearing and the Word is to be preached to all but the Seales c. o Vide supra Chap. 3. G. p Cottons Letter examined p. 37. Cotton here confesseth these two things first if any reproach the Church of Salem for Separation it is a sin meet to be censured secondly the Churches themselves may be separated from who tolerate their members in such causlesse reproachings which I leave to himselfe to reconcile with his former profession against Separation q Vide supra Chap. 4. R r Vide supra Chap. 5. E 1 s Burtons Vindication p. 45. We esteeme the Government of Christs Church so holy as we cannot think them fit to be admitted be they never so good that think so slightly of the way and of them that walk in it that they refuse to agree to walk in this way with the people of God Ibid. p. 62. Doe you not know that no Infants have any title to Baptisme but by vertue of their Parents faith outwardly professed and what outward profession of faith in the Parents that refuse Christ for their only King If therefore the Parents refuse thus to be in visible Covenant can the children be said to be in visible Covenant and so to have a right to baptisme If then the Parents by refusing Christ as their King doe hereby cut
whom they being not satisfied in the answer of an offender may appeale unto and in so doing tell the Church such a small number may be a Church and may have the blessing of his presence to be among them ll Ibid. p. 8 9. When a visible Church is to be erected it is necessary that in respect of quantity it be no more in number in the dayes of the New Testament but so many as may meet in one Congregation mm Ibid. p. 15. The Church is before the Ministers seeing the power of chusing Ministers is given to the Church by Christ nn Ibid. p. 68. The Church that hath no Officers may elect Officers unto themselves therefore it may also ordaine them if it hath power from Christ for the one and that the greater it hath also for the other which is the lesser now Ordination is lesse then Election oo Ibid. p. 42. Vnto the 13 question whether you think it convenient that a company of private and illiterate persons should ordinarily examine elect ordaine and depose their Ministers a part of the answer to this question is if there were none among them who had humane learning we doe not see how this could hinder them of their Liberty to chuse Ministers purchased to them by Christs precious blood for they that are fit matter to be combined into a Church body have learned the Doctrine of the holy Scriptures in the fundamentall points thereof they have learned to know the Lord in their owne hearts therefore they may not bee reproached as illiterate or unworthy to chuse their owne Ministers nay they have the best learning without which all other learning is but madnesse and folly pp Plaine Dealing p. 3. They set a day for the Ordination of their Officers and appoint some of themselves to impose hands upon them where there are Ministers or Elders before they impose their hands upon the new Officers but where there is none there some of their chiefest men two or three of good report amongst them though not of the Ministry doe by appointment of the same Church lay hands upon them Cottons way p. 40 41. Towards the end of the day one of the Elders of the Church if they have any if not one of the graver Brethren of the Church appointed by themselves to order the work of the day standeth up and enquireth in the Church c. he advertiseth him who is chosen what duties the Lord requireth of him in that place towards the Church then with the Presbytery of that Church if they have any or if not with two or three others of the gravest Christians among the Brethren of that Church being deputed by the body he doth in the name of the Lord Jesus ordaine him to that Office with imposition of hands calling upon the Lord and so turning the speech to the person on whom their hands are imposed he as the mouth of the Presbytery expresses their Ordination of him and puts a solemne charge upon him to look well to himselfe and the flock After this the Elders of other Churches present observing the presence of God in the orderly proceeding of the Church to the Officers Election and Ordination one of them in the name of all the rest doth give unto him the right hand of Fellowship in the sight of all the Assembly qq Answer to the 32 questions p. 48. If the Church hath power by election to chuse a Minister and so power of instituting him then of destituting also Instituere destituere ejusdem est potestatis rr Ibid. p. 44. We conceive that every Church properly so called though they bee not above ten persons or the least number that you mention have right and power from Christ to transact all their owne Ecclesiasticall businesse if so be they be able and carry matters justly for the power of the Keyes Matth. 16.19 is committed by Christ unto the Church ss Cottons Catechism p. 10. It is committed to the Presbytery to prepare matters for the Churches hearing tt Answer to the 32 quest p. 60. In this sense matters with us are carried according to the vote of the major part that is with the joynt consent of the whole Church but yet because it is the mind of Christ ww The propositions to which almost all our Elders did agree when they were assembled together the first the Fraternity is the first subject of all Presbyteriall power radicaliter id est causatim per modum collationis non habitualiter non actualiter non formaliter xx Anatom p. 26. I heare of no ruling Elders that ever Mr Simpson had in his Church Anatomist anatomised p. 12. It is true de facto wee had none but were resolved to have them Notwithstanding this answer of Mr Simpsons that Church of Rotterdam to this day hath never had a Presbytery after more then seven yeares delay yy Antap. p. 52. Pastors are necessary Officers in your Churches and yet according to your practises your Churches are many yeares without them zz Keyes p. 10. Authority is a morall power and a superiour Order or State binding or releasing an inferiour in point of subjection Christ hath given no Iurisdiction but to whom he hath given office The Key of power in a large sense or Liberty is in the Church but the Key of authority or rule in a more strict sense is in the Elders of the Church aaa Excommunication is one of the highest acts of Rule and therfore cannot bee performed but by some Rulers now where all the Elders are culpable there be no Rulers left in that Church to censure them as therefore the Presbytery cannot excommunicate the whole Church though apostate for they must tell the Church and joyne with the Church in that censure so neither can the Church excommunicate the whole Presbytery because they have not received from Christ an Office of Rule without their Officers Ib. preface p. 4. He gives unto the Elders or Presbytery a binding power of Rule and Authority peculiar unto them and to the Brethren distinct and apart an interest of power and priviledge to concurre with them and that such affaires should not be transacted but with the joynt agreement of both though out of a different Right so that as a Church of Brethren only could not proceed to any publike censures without they have Elders over them so neither in the Church have the Elders power to censure without the concurrence of the people so as each alone have not power of excommunicating the whole of either though together they have power over any particular person or persons in each bbb Ibid. also Keyes p. 13. Else the Brethren have a power of order and the priviledge to expostulate with their brethren in case of private scandals so in case of publike scandall the whole Church of brethren have power and priviledge to joyne with the Elders in inquiring hearing judging of publike scandals so as to bind notorius offenders and impenitents under censure and
Ghost the sonnes and daughters of the Father must be understood as many such priviledges of the universall and invisible Church or when any of them are to be applyed to a particular visible Church they must be understood of that Church not according to every one but only the living and gracious members thereof That such priviledges of the Catholicke invisible Church when they are applyed to a particular visible Congregation are to be understood according to this distinction of members Robinson him selfe while yet in his rigid separation grants it expresly The places thus expounded prove not the point for grant to every Congregation so high priviledges as you will yet if they must be verified of that Congregation only according to some members and not according to all if they be to be understood only of the Elect in that Congregation who have the sanctifying Spirit of Christ not of many others who are dead in nature and yet are such members who have right from God according to our Brethrens own Tenet to perform Church acts such as are the preaching of the Gospel the celebration of the Sacraments the admission of members the execution of censures with such authority from Christ as makes all these acts truly valid for the comfort and salvation of the Elect they prove not the true grace of every person whom we must acknowledge to be a true member of a Church If you will extend these places to every singular member of particular visible Churches as indeed the Argument if it have any strength doth import the absurdity will be great for so it will carry to the Pelagianisme of Arminius in the extent of the true grace of God beyond the Elect to all the members of a visible Church also to the totall and finall Apostacy of many who are the Temples of the holy Ghost the members of Christ the faithfull and sanctified children of God For the Argument maketh every member of any visible Church to be such daily experience proves that many members of every visible Church are castawayes Yea the Argument drives further then any of the Arminians will follow for however they extend the true and saving grace of God beyond the Elect members of a Church yet none of them ever said that this sanctifying and saving grace must be in every person before they can bee admitted members of any Church For this is that grosse errour which the Independents have learned not so much from Arminius as Socinus to put all men unconverted without the Church that in this condition they may be converted by the preaching of private men and if by Pastors yet by their Preaching not as Pastors but as private men dealing with these who are none of their Flock but without the Church Neither doe the Socinians so farre as I know extend their Tenet thus farre as to require all before they be members of the Church to be truly regenerate as if the only instrument of regeneration and conversion were the preaching of private men without the Church and the preaching of Pastors within the Church did serve only for the continuing of the sence of justification and the encrease of sanctification as being performed of purpose only unto these persons who at their first entrance into the Church while yet they were without and but comming in have demonstrate the certainty of their enjoying these graces The second Argument God receives none to be members of the visible Church but those who shall be saved but the Stewards of Gods house may receive none but whom God doth receive Ergo the Stewards of Gods house may receive none to bee members of a visible Church but those who shall be saved Answer The Conclusion is subject to the most of the faults observed upon the conclusion of the former Argument which I doe not repeat only consider that this conclusion beareth expresly that none may be members of a visible Church but these who shall be saved and so who are truly Elect. We would not be deceived with their distinctions of inward and outward holinesse of seeming and reall grace of charitable and veritable discerning for this and the other Argument inferres flatly that no other must be received as members in a visible Church but such as first are tryed and found to bee really holy and who shall be saved We Answer therefore to the Minor That it is evidently false for the Reasons which we brought upon the Minor of the former Argument The place of the Acts brought for the proofe of it is detorted such as were to be saved were added to the Church is this indefinite proposition to be understood universally that all who were to be saved were added to the Church the former Argument maketh this no necessary truth for if men must be justified sanctified and put in the way of salvation before they be added to the Church then though they were never added to the Church they may well bee saved They would doe well here to remember their own ordinary practice contrary to that which here they professe to be the way of God Why doe they not adde to their Church all that are to be saved why exclude they many whom they grant to be truly gracious and Elect upon this ground alone that they cannot approve of their Independency or Covenant Or suppose the proposition to be universall yet must it be reciprocall and convertible Be it so that all who were to be saved were added to the Church yet must all who are added to the Church be saved This is an evident untruth Will they that all the members of their Church must be saved or doe they think that all the persons of their Churches who shall not be saved were never true members of their visible Church Iudas was made a member of the Apostolick society by Christ and many men were brought into the visible Church by the Prophets and Apostles who shall not be saved Shall damnation and want of true grace cast them all out of the true Church and take from them their power and right to do the actions of a Church-member The third Argument If it be put in any forme will readily fall under the exceptions of the first but since the Author puts no forme upon it I shall only consider its matter It consists of the misapplication of three Scriptures first of Peters Confession Matâ—h 8. they alledge that such a profession of Faith as the Father reveales to particular persons is the ground of a visible Church and so who ever is a member of that Church must both professe Faith and have the Spirit to indite that profession Answer This is a strange Argument For first we may not admit that the Church founded upon the Rock is every particular visible Church The priviledges of the Catholike and visible Church which the Iesuites by all their wrestlings have never been able to extort from us for their Idoll
whole preceding Prophecie especially of the peoples deliverance by Michael the Prince from the oppression of Antiochus which was not much to be understood till it came to passe Fourthly They reason from the last verse Life eternall is common to all the Saints and no singular priviledge of Daniels But the resurrection here spoken of is promised to Daniel as a singular favour Answer Mr. Archer who is deepest learned in these Mysteries affirmes That all the goldly as well as Daniel had their part in the first resurrection and indeede if once you begin to distinguish it will be hard to finde satisfactory grounds to give this glory to Daniel and to deny it to David to Moses to Abraham and many others Secondly We may well say that life eternall albeit common to all the Saints yet is so divine so rare and singular a mercy to every one that gets it that it may be propounded to Daniel and every Saint as a soveraigne comfort against the bitternesse of all their troubles Thirdly The place according to the best Interpreters speakes nothing at all of any resurrection onely it imports a promise to Daniel to live in peace all his dayes that notwithstanding all the troubles of the Church which he saw in these visions as Diodate Translates it yet so farre as concerned himself he should goe on to his end and rest stand or continue in his present honours and prosperous condition to his death and 〈…〉 of his dayes Fifthly from the 11. and 12. verse they conclude peremptorily the beginning of these thousand yeares to be in the yeare 1650 or at furthest 1695 for they make the 1290 dayes to be so many yeares and the 1335 dayes to be 45 yeares more these they make to beginne in the raigne of Julian the Apostate who after Constantine's death did re-establish Paganisme in the Empire and encouraged the Jewes to build the Temple of Jerusalem till God hindred them by an Earthquake which did cast up the foundation-stones of the old Temple Beginning their account at this time the end of their first number falls on the yeere 1650 and of the second on the yeare 1695. This is Archers calculation which T. G. and others follow precisely Answer We marvell at the rashnesse of men who by the example of many before them will not learne greater wisedome if they needes must determine peremptorily of times and seasons That they doe not extend their period beyond their owne dayes That they be not as some before them laughed at before their owne Eyes when they have lived to set the vanity of their too confident Predictions however in this calculation there seemes nothing to be sound neither the beginning nor the middle nor the later end If the thousand yeares begin in the 1650 yeare if Christ then come in person to the earth what will keepe him from perfecting his Kingdome to the 1695 yeare thereafter will he spend whole 45 yeares in warres against the Nations before they be subdued to his Scepter Secondly What warrant have they to begin their account with the Empire of Julian Did he set up any abomination at all in the Church of God He opened againe in the Territories of his Empire the Pagan Temples which by Constantine had been closed by counsell and example he allured men to idolatry but he troubled not any Christians in the liberty of their profession he did not set up idolatry in any Christian Congregation The Lord did quickly kill him and so prevented his intended persecution of Christians But although it could be verified of him that he did set up the abomination of desolation in the Temple yet how made he the daily Sacrifice to cease he was so far from this that to t◠uttermost of his power he laboured to set up againe the daily Sacrifice which some hundred yeares ceased Scripture speakes onely of two times wherein the solemne sacrifice was made to cease and the abomination of desolation was set up First by Antiochus Epiphanes and then by Titus Vespasian but of Julian his making the sacrifice to cease Scripture speakes nothing That Story of the Earthquake whereupon Mr Archer builds albeit reported by some of the Ancients seemes to be a great fable Certainely the application of it to Christs Prophesie of the Gospel A stone shall not be left upon a stone as if this had not been fulfilled till that Earthquake had cast up all the foundation-stones of the ancient Temple is very temerarious As The beginning and end of their calculation is groundlesse so also the midst and the whole body of it is frivolous What necessity is there to expound dayes by yeares especially in that place where yeares are divided into dayes In the very preceding words vers 7. the dayes here mentioned are expressed by a time times and halfe a time can they shew in any place of Scripture that ever a day is put for a yeare where yeares and dayes are conjoyned and a few yeares are extended in the enumeration of all the dayes that are in these yeares The words of the Prophet Daniel are cleare if they be taken as they lie but if they be strained to a Mysticall sense they become inexplicable The Lord is comforting the Prophet and the whole Church by the short indurance of the desolations which Antiochus was to bring upon them for from the time of his scattering of the Jewes and discharging of the solemne sacrifice unto the breaking of the yoake of his Tyranny it should be but three yeares and a halfe with a few more dayes yea unto that happy time when the plague of God should fall on his person it should be but 45 dayes more The History of Josephus and the Maccabees makes the event accord with this prediction Why then should we straine the Text any further to a new sence which neither agrees with the event nor with the words Another place alleadged by Mr. Burrowes is Psalme 102.16 When the Lord shall build up Sion he shall appeare in his glory As if this did import both the building againe of Sion and also Christs glorious appearance upon the earth Answer This place speaks of no such things the ordinary Exposition of late and old Interpreters agrees so well with the contexture of the whole Psalme that to drive it farther were needlesse the place speakes of the Babylonish Captivity and of the earnest desire of the godly at that time to have Jerusalem and Sion then in the dust againe restored This desire of the Saints is granted and a promise is made to them that Sion should be againe builded and that the Lord by this act of mercy should get great glory But for any third building of Sion after the dayes of the Messias or for any personall raigne of Christ upon earth no syllable in this place doth appeare His next place is Rom. 11.12 If the fall of them be the riches of the world and the diminishing of them be the riches
the Father gave to the Son at his Incarnation Luke 1.32 33. The Lord shall give unto him the throne of his Father David and he shall raigne over the House of Iacob for ever This Kingdome for the matter of it is truely everlasting being the glory which Christ and his Saints injoy for ever in the heavens albeit for the manner of the administration thereof it be rendred up by the Sonne to the Father when the worke of mediation is perfected and all enemies are fully destroyed To deny the beginning of Christs Kingdome over his Church unto the thousand yeares is many wayes absurd And because of the eternall indurance of his dominion and glory in the heavens to make the Church on earth in which he raignes to be voide of all tribulation of all changes to have a perpetuall day without any darkenesse is contrary to the Scriptures alleadged in the former arguments In the eleventh place he alledgeth Revel 19.13 And he was cloathed with a vesture dipped in blood And Ezek. 21 28. And there shall be no more a pricking brier unto the house of Israel nor any grieving them of all that are round about them Whence they inferre That in the beginning of the thousand yeares Christ with his owne hands shall kill so many of the wicked that his garments shall be dipped in blood and not one of them left to trouble the Church Answer It is a very strange conception to make the Lord Jesus embrue his holy hands in the blood of so many men That these battells are not fought with the hands of Christ in a literall way will appeare by a paralell place Isay 63.1 Who is this that commeth from Edom with died garments from Bozra Unto Christ here are ascribed garments died in blood because of the slaughter of the Edomites a little after the Babylonish captivity at which time Christ had neither a body nor a garment in propriety of speech As these battells were fought by Christ not in his owne person nor upon the earth so neither these battells of the Revel-which so much the lesse can be literally expounded as in the 14 and 15 verses of that 19 Chapter the instrument whereby Christ is said to fight these battells is not any Sword in his hand but the two-edged Sword of his mouth and the Souldiers whom he leads out to these battells are not armed with Sword and Speare but ride upon white Horses cloathed in fine linnen white and cleane As for that of Ezechiel if you consult either with the originall or the best Interpreters it must be expounded first and principally if not solely of the Towne of Sidon which the Lord was to destroy that it might no more be a thorne in the side of Israel From this to inferre the purging of the Christian Church of all other enemies in this life and that by killing of them all as cursed Canaanites were a dangerous conclusion farre from the justice and innocence of Christians in all by-gone times the beleefe whereof would quickly renew unto us the horrible tragedies of the Anabaptists In the twelfth place he cites Rev. 21.23 24. And the City had no need of the Sun neither of the Moone to shine in it and the Kings of the earth doe bring their glory and honour unto it also chap. 22. ver 1 2 3. and he shewed me a pure river of the water of life c. Ans The Divines who apply these two chapters to the condition of the Church upon earth after the calling of the Jewes take the most of the passages in a figurative and allegoricall sence To expound them literally and properly of any Church on earth the Text will not permit Shall ever the Church on earth be so free of sorrow and death as not to sorrow for sinne or to have none of its members mortall Shall they so immediately see the face of God as the use of Temples Tabernacles or any ordinance shall be needelesse shall ever man upon earth be without the Sunne and the Moone These things are true in a proper sence onely of the Saints of heaven What is here alleadged to the contrary That the Kings of the earth bring not their riches and honours to the Heavens we say it is but a part of the Allegorie to expresse under that similitude the glory wealth of the life to come as in the same place the Spirit of God expresses the happinesse of heaven by the Metaphors of gold and pretious stones of rivers and fountaines of trees and fruits To expound all these in a literall sence of any Church either in earth or heaven were incommodious except our Brethren would put us upon more fancies then any of them yet have spoke of In the last place they cite for the gifts of the Saints Zach. 12.8 He that is feeble among them in that day shall be like David and the house of David shall be as God and for the honour of the Saints that in the thousand yeares they shall be taken into private familiarity by Princes and great men Rev. 11.12 And they heard a great voyce from heaven saying unto them come up hither and they ascended up to heaven in a cloud and their enemies beheld them Ans The gifts meant by Zachary are such as are powred upon all the Saints of the New Testament with the spirit of grace and supplication which makes the least of the Kingdome of Heaven to be like unto David to Elijah and greater then John the Baptist as Christ speakes But what is this unto the imaginary glory of the Chiliasticke Kingdome The honour they speake of cannot be fetched out of that eleventh of the Revel For who but themselves will expound heaven in that place of the Thrones of Kings of the Privie Chambers of Princes and great men The calling up of the two witnesses to heaven by none else but them will be taken for the Saints familiarity with great States-men And according to their own Tenets in the Chiliasticke Kingdome there is no such degrees of honour as in this world For there Christ in his owne Person is King and all the Saints doe shine at least as the firmament and the glory of these Saints is greatest whose grace is most eminent Familiarity with Princes and worldly States-men is then for no purpose Beside the ascention of the two witnesses to the heavens is before the fall of the tenth part of Rome and so before the thousand yeares beginne There be yet some more places cited by Master Burrowes and others for their Tenet but these which we have answered are the principall and if they be cleared there is no difficulty in the rest Besides Scriptures Master Burrowes takes from the Glimpse of T. G. sundry testimonies of antiquity all which T. G. does borrow from Alstedius To the which I answer That no Protestants build their fayth upon humane testimonies and no men in the world make so small account of