Selected quad for the lemma: sense_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
sense_n	church_n	faith_n	true_a	7,319	5	5.4231	4	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A09441	The churches plea for her right, or, A reply to an answer made of Mr. Iohn Paget against William Best and others wherein the maine points of our present differences are handled and the principall causes of our troubles declared / published by William Best.	Best, William, fl. 1635.; Paget, John, d. 1640. Answer to the unjust complaints of William Best.	1635 (1635)	STC 1973.5; ESTC S151	93,797	110

is to shew that members of visible Churches haue onely right unto the publicke ordinances administred therein As for others they are not to be judged that is in those publicke things the Church hath no relation to them nor may I say in this respect haue communion with them And hence I reason thus If the infants in questiō are without then may they not be admitted unto Church communion and so consequently not to baptisme But they are without Therefore c. The proposition is manifest by this Scripture 1. Corint 5.12 The assumption is evident and needeth no proofe After this hee tels us of 3 sorts of persons which may be said to be without 1. Members of a visible Church wanting true faith 2. Infidells and Heathens 3. Those that for the present live not under the Discipline and Gouvernment of some particular Church and yet make profession of the same Religion with the true visible Churches c. This later practise some imperfect communion with them and therefore in some sence may be said to be of such Churches Answ 1. Howsoever the Lord knoweth who are his yet cannot Mr. Paget nor any man else judge men to be without true faith and so no members of the invisible Church specially they standing members of some particular Congregation and therefore his talke here is altogether fruitles and nothing concerneth the place 1. Cor. 5.12 which hee pretendeth to answer 2. The difference which hee puts betweene men without is without warrant of Scripture Paul as Paraeus * Comment on 1. Cor. c. 5. v. 12. p. 272. well observes on this place divides all men into two ranckes the first and greater without the later and lesser within And howsoever th 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 for personall gifts and graces are not alike notwithstanding as they stand in relation to a visible Church-state they differ not But are all alike excluded from actuall communion in the publicke ordinances thereof As wee see in a desert or willdernes diversitie of trees some good some bad some are thornes and brambles others are vines and fig-trees nevertheles in respect of a Vineard or Orchard they are quite out of the same a like 3. For his imperfect communion it is a perfect invention of his owne head for the word of God teacheth no such thing Againe where hee sayth they are members of the Church in some sence and not in another this likewise is another of his fictions And observe here how hee pleads for the prophaine multitude just as doe the Papists for their Pope in one respect hee is a man in another respect hee is more then a man Iew. Defen Apol. 6. part c. 20. Divis 3. p. 784. One way hee may erre another way hee cannot erre But not minding to spend much time about the thing for the naming of it is a sufficient resutation this I say a man must either be a member of a particular Church formally otherwise hee cannot be reputed a visible member of it in any sence or respect at all If hee can proove the contrary by the word of God it lyeth him now upon it to doe it In the meane time let the discreet Reader judge whither hee be not guilty of venting new conceits and opinions of his owne And whither by these his new conceits and opinions hee doe not gratifie the Valentinians Marcionites and Gnostikes Who as Irenaeus a Advers Haer. 8.3 c. 7. l. 1. c. 1 reporteth did seeke to bring into the Church mens devises And whither hee doe not gratify the Trent-Councell b Conc. Trid. Sess 4. dec 1 Fathers and the Papists yea moreover the Cabala or Talmud c 4. Esd 14.26.48 of the Rabbins and the Montanists d Tertul. de praeser adve Haer. c. 52. For the sinne for which these chiefly are condemned is because they haue broched many lies and beastly vanities as if all things concerning faith and manners were not contained in the Scriptures Thus wee haue examined Mr. Pagets Answers to the allegations of Scriptures brought by Mr. Davenport Now least hee should complaine against me for some partialitie I thinke it not amisse to write a few words touching that Scripture which hee mentioneth in pag. 44. namely Mat. 3. If hee cannot find a better ground then this to lay his unlimited Baptisme upon surely then the same will never proove to be lawfull For 1. the persons there specifyed through Iohns doctrine powerfully caried home to their consciences had their hearts deeply wounded ‡ Paraeus Comment in Mat. c. 3. v. 6. p. 29. with the sence of sinne and thereupon made open confession thereof 2. That which they did was done freely * Aret. in Mat. 3. pag. 119. and voluntarily 3. The same was accompanied with a desire * Muscul in Mat. 3. p. 24. and purpose of amendment of life 4. They were members of a visible Church 5. The Baptiser was no ordinary Minister Now then how can Mr. Paget hence proove that men not humbled by the word preached not manifesting any sorrow for sinne not shewing any desire of reformation of life not members of any particular Congregation may neverthelesse haue their infants lawfully baptised by a Pastour or Teacher they saying Yea or nodding with the head to some questions imposed upon them or having others to doe it in their behalfe I doe not thinke it strange that hee could not prevaile as hee sayth with Mr. Davenport by such conference in the point for in truth as this allegation so is the rest there of his talke a rope of sand as an overblowne bladder that will burst of it self and vent the wind thereof without pricking And thus much for this Section SECTION V. WHereas Mr. Paget hath so often called upon me by name to proove the Protestation published against him to wit that hee hath bene many wayes injurious to our Congregation My purpose is by the Lords assistance in this and the following Sections to set downe the same And because all our troubles haue proceeded as it were from two causes viz. the Baptisme of Non-members and the denying of the Churches power I shall therefore speake of these two things the more fully And first of the Baptisme Now the reasons which I haue against it are these ARGVMENT I. To breake that sacred order which God hath set in his visible Church for all his Saints to keepe and walke by is a great sinne But to baptize infants whose Parents are not members of any particular Congregation is to breake that order c. Therefore it is a great sinne to doe it The proposition is evident by these Scriptures 1. Cor. 14.33 ult 1. Cor. 5.13 Num. 23.9.10.11.21 and 24.5.6 1. King 14.1.17 Son 6.4 The assumption is as cleare For let it be observed that unto all Church-actions as there is Faith so order also necessarily required And hence is the difference onely betweene Christian-communion and Church-communion to practise Christian-communion there needeth

of the body notwithstanding it will not hence follow that men and women not joyned to any Congregation neither intending so to doe Moreover knowne to be idolaters adulterers and most prophaine persons may be reputed in the covenant by saying Amen or nodding with the head unto a few questions read out of a booke unto them and so lawfully procure the admission of their infants unto the seale of Baptisme Notwithstanding either this hee must proove or otherwise hee is guilty of abusing and mis-applying all these Scriptures ‡ Mat. 5.37 9.28 13.51 Ioh. 21.15 Rev. 22.20 Ps 106.48 1 Co. 14.16 Eccl. 19.8 24.3.4 Deut. 27.14.15 29.1.10.15 Rom. 1.45 c. Ioh. 13.24 Luk. 1.22.62 5.7 Act. 18.20 2. Cor. 8. 4.31 1. Chro. 29.20 2. Chron. 20.28 here heaped together And that the Reader may be better perceive the loosenes of his reasoning I doe intreat him to observe what wee say and what hee sayth unto it Whereas it is the custome of the Dutch Church to baptise many infans whose Parents are not members of any Church when they answer Yea at the Leiturgy of Baptisme publickely or by nodding the head This practise sayth Mr. Davenport and wee too is unlawfull Mr. Paget to justify it stepts in and tels us that in Moyses time in Christs time and after in the Apostles dayes many godly people members of the Church haue in some cases signifyed their meaning and their wills by short speaches and externall gestures And this is all the answer that hee makes to it So that hee maketh a shew of remooving the objection but in truth leaveth it altogether untouched But by his leave seeing hee slides away from the point I must intreat him to come back againe to it and plainely to proove unto us these 3 things which hee very cunningly takes for granted 1. By what authority hee publickely propoundeth certaine questions unto people that are not members of any particular Congregation and will have them to answer with Yea or nodding the head or the like 2. How it can appeare that such are to be counted Christians in the sence of the Scriptures which are visibly wicked men manifest no fruit of faith and repentance but when some questions are mooved to them and then all that they doe is to say Amen or to nod with the head at the afore-sayd questions 3. Seeing it is the judgement of the Learned * D. Cha. ser on Rom. 12 p. 53. Chrisost in Mat. Hom. 38 in Act. Hom. 19. Whitak ag Du. l. 1. de Scri. Defen godly Minist ag Br. p. 98. that the Canonicall Scripture ought onely to be read in the Congregation and no writing besides it Yea and divers Councills * Conc. Hippon cap. 38. Laod. c. 59. haue so concluded I would know then what warrant men have to read a Leiturgie of Baptisme publickely I suppose Mr. Paget is not ignorant that untill hee have cleared these things all that hee hath yet sayd is frivolous and impertinent Lastly let it be againe observed that the Papists * Bellarm. de Ecc. Mil. c. 2 See Sutclif Chal. c. 10. pag. 40. Perk. 3. Vol. pag. 536. and hee joyne here togither and both against the truth for they teach as hee doth Let a man be whatsoever hee will if hee professe the faith it is sufficient to make him a member of the Catholike Church Againe ‡ Stevar●●us Comment in 1 Thess 3 8. p. 115. It is enought to baptisme if a man have the knowledge of the Creed the ten commaundements and Sacraments Would not one thinke that he had bene an apprintise to them in setting up the same trade or craft that they doe Now to the places of Scriptures The first is Act. 11. 21-26 A great number beleeved and turned unto the Lord c. and the Disciples were called Christians To this hee saith It cannot be specified by what words or signes more or lesse they professed their conversion unto God Answ 1. This allegation was not brought to shew by what words or signes the faith full professed their conversion unto God but to proove that men must first beleeve and be joyned to some visible Church before they can be counted Christians in that sence as to procure to use his words the admission of their infants to haue the seale of Baptisme But to this hee saith nothing but takes up a matter which hee needed not and passeth by what hee should haue spoken 2. Be it granted that it cannot be specified by what words c. yet it can be manifested that they shewed such faith and repentance as the grace of God appeared in them vers 23. Now suppose Mr. Paget were to make a Sermon on the doctrine of faith or repentance I doe thinke when hee should come to set downe the evidences of these graces hee would not affirme that Atheists Hereticks theeves murderers c. haue them notwithstanding the Parents of those children for whose Baptisme hee here pleadeth are I say many of them such vile wretches as hee well knowes 3. It is to be inquired whither his meaning be to compare those Disciples and Christians Act. 11.21.26 with the Churchles people in question If so Then I must be bold to tell him that as hee dishonoureth the primitive Saints so himself much more On the otherside if hee say hee intendeth no such thing then hee might haue spared much labour saved charge and spent his time more profitably then to write many words and all just nothing 4. I marvaile what was in his mind when hee wrote this answer Hee asketh How it can be prooved from hence that such as consented unto the doctrine of the Gospel propounded unto them by answering Yea or bowing their heads might not thereupon he admitted unto Baptisme they and their Infants Answ 1. I doe not yet understand how hee rayseth this observation viz. that the beleevers in Act. 11. consented to the doctrine of the Gospel by answering Yea to it or bowing their bodies in testimony of their liking thereof I perceive it is an easy thing to conquest if begging may procure one that But I mind not to give the case so away Therefore I doe deny that ever these embraced the truth in so absurd a sort And seeing this is an assertion of his owne head it lies him now upon to justify it Tertullian * In his booke of prescript ag Heret sayth It is not lawfull for men to flatter themselves with any thing of their owne opinion and judgement nor chuse that which comes in their owne braine Wee have the Apostles for example who taught nothing after their owne pleasure but faithfully the doctrines which they received of Christ. 2. If by pronouncing the doctrine of the Gospell hee meane a reading or saying over of a Litu●gie as is the matter in controversy then I doe againe deny that there was in the Apostles dayes any such thing practised 3. If it should be

7. p. 884. Deu. 16.21 Col. 2.23 Exo. 20.24 are stewards whose duety is not to prescribe new Lawes unto the familie but faithfully to keepe the Lawes of the householder and to doe every thing according to his commaundement 2. All such inventions of men as are devised for any service of God are abhorred by the Lord Hee likes nothing but what hee appointeth himself 3. God promiseth his presence onely in his owne ordinances and therefore wee cannot exspect that hee will either accept or blesse * See Mr. Dod upon 2 Comm. Elton on Colos p. 308 Per. idol last times p. 674. c. that thing which is not done accordingto his revealed will 4. Herein wee obey the Lord ‡ Esa 8.20 1 The. 5.21 1 Ioh. 3.1 Act. 17.11 and walke in the stepts of the faithfull 5. In this wee take no more liberty then others have formerly done Luther in the Preface of the Assertion of the Articles condemned by the Bull of Leo X. Hee sayth I call them to record of this my protestation that I will be urged to yeeld by no mans authority though hee be never so holy a Father but as farre as hee shall be approoved by the judgement of the divine Scriptures And here I will conclude this point in the words of Augustine Wee weigh not the writings of all men be they never so worthie as wee weigh the Canonicall Scriptures but that Ad Fortun. Epist. 111. saving the reverence that is due unto them we may mislike and refuse somewhat in their writings if wee find that they have taught otherwise then the Scriptures will beare Let it here be observed that Mr. Paget pleadeth for his Discipline as the Papists doe for theirs They say * Sculting Hier. Anar 1. pag. 15.19.25 Church gouvernment is not to be taken onely from the Scriptures but from the wholesome precepts of the Fathers and institutions of old Canons I suppose hee dares not affirme that unto the lawfull calling of a Minister God requireth every particular Church to seeke the allowance of the Classis and that they shall not proceed in the thing without their advise Notwithstanding hee doth what hee can to subject us unto this humaine ordinance and will not suffer us otherwise to goe on and therefore as I said hee and they have taken up one devise to bring all Churches if they could into miserable bondage But let him remember the words of Salomon ‡ Prov. 22.28 Remoove not the ancient limit which thy fathers have set This is a great sinne in all places * Iob 24.2 but greatest in the Churches of the Saints Mr. Davenport judgeing it wholy unlawfull to baptise any infant whose Parents one at least are no members of any particular Congregation alleadged for it certaine Scriptures Pag. 133 134. c. unto which Mr. Paget hath answered But whether effectually wee are now to inquire The first is Act. 20.28 Take heed therefore unto your selves and to all the flock over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers c. To this Mr. Paget as before makes 8 Replyes most of which I take them to be so impertinent as not capable indeed of any answer Leaving the first to M r Davenport because it concerneth his owne person wee come to the second where hee writeth thus Suppose Paul in the place alledged had required no more of the Pastours of Ephesus yet might a further duetie have bene laid upon them in some other place of Scripture It is no good kind of disputing to argue thus No more is required of Ministers in such and such a place therefore in no other place at all Answ 1. Be it here noted that these words tend unto the upholding of the vilest errours that can be For from the ground which hee hath here laid downe what Divine truth is there but may be coulorably gaine-said and resisted For example If a man to proove that there are three persons in the Godhead no more should alledge for it 1. Ioh. 5.7 There are three that beare record in Heaven c. Might not a Heathen take up his words and say O Sir it is no good kind of disputing to argue thus No more are mentioned in such and such a place therefore in no other place at all I marvaill how Mr. Paget would be able to stoppe such an adversaries mouth In his next writing I shall exspect to see some thing about it In the meane time I doe advertise him to beware of these rash and inconsiderate sayings Hee cannot be ignorant what a most daungerous worke hee hath set forth once already Seeking by it as one * Mr. Ains Advertism to the Read at the end of the 5. Bookes of Moyses published in England by authority against him truely chargeth him to strike at the very text and to weaken our common faith For which thing hee lyeth to this day under the just Censure and sharpe reproofe of many Godly and Learned men It would be good therefore for him in Iobs ‡ Cha. 40.5 42.6 words to say Once have I spoken but I will not answer yea twise but I will proceed no further Wherefore I abhorre my self and repent in dust and ashes 2. Whereas hee answereth with If or might be this sheweth that being not able to avoyd the force of the Scripture yet unwilling to ascent unto it hee loves to be contentious and to seeke a knot in a rish If there be any place of Scripture to his knowledge that doth require the Pastours of Ephesus to baptise such infants whose Parents are without it had bene his duety to have named it But if hee know no such thing as I am sure hee doth not then let him know that his reasoning is fruitlesse and deceitfull too If a man will be perverse it is no mastery to have a distinction and to say some thing though without brane or sence But what sayth Vives * Lib. 1. de Caus art corrupt They are base wits that are so affected For ingenious minds and natures well given will rather seeke how true that is which they hold then how they may defend it making greater price of verity then victory 3. To answer the thing more fully the ordinary examples of the Godly in Scripture are set downe for our imitation yea and wee are exhorted to follow the same Phil. 4.8.9.10 2 Ti. 3.10 1 Cor. 4.17 10.11 Heb. 13.15 Iam. 5.17 Luk. 4.25.26.27 These things sayth Paul which yee have heard and seene in me doe Hence it is that the Apostle having spoken of the vertues of many true beleevers Heb. 11. likeneth them in chap. 12.1 unto the Cloud which the Israelites had in the desert by which they were guided unto the Land of Canaan And in particular the intent of the holy Ghost in causing the Acts of the Apostles to be recorded was that the same should be as a Cloud to direct us in the way to heaven Now