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Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
sense_n	body_n	true_a	word_n	4,161	5	4.6147	4	true

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A12592	A godly treatise containing and deciding certaine questions, mooued of late in London and other places, touching the ministerie, sacraments, and Church Whereunto one proposition more is added. After the ende of this booke you shall finde a defence of such points as M. Penry hath dealt against: and a confutation of many grosse errours broched in M. Penries last treatise. Written by Robert Some Doctor of Diuinitie.	Some, Robert, 1542-1609.; Penry, John, 1559-1593. Defence of that which hath bin written in the questions of the ignorant ministerie, and the communicating with them.	1588 (1588)	STC 22909; ESTC S117654	118,250	200

the place of a priest among them was no priest in deed though he ten thousand times profaned circumcision would brag neuer so often that he worshipped after his Idolatrous maner no other God but the God of his father Abraham and sware onely by the feare of his father Isaac The reason hereof is because that euery priest vnder the law must be an Israelite by profession that is a member of the true Church neither could any of the godly assure themselues that an Edomitish priest admistred true circumcision according to the substance Now I reckon of a popish priest no otherwise thē I would haue done of an Ismaelitish or Edomitish circumciser the profanation of that seale of the couenant still continuing in mount Seir. R. Some Your Maior propositions in your two first arguments are viz. Euery Minister must bee at the least by profession a member of the true Church And euery Minister hath an office within the body of the Church My answere is that your Maior propositions and the proofe of them out of the 12. to the Rom. are true if you giue them this sense viz. that euery lawfull and good Minister of God is by prosession a member and hath an office within the body of the sound Church If you vnderstand your Maior propositions otherwise I deny them my reason is Excommunicated heretiques which administer true baptisme out of the Church had a calling though a faultie one and yet these heretiques neither were mēbers nor had any office in the true Church That Iudas was a vessel of wrath and yet an Apostle and a member of the Church in the iudgement of the Church I make no question The case of many hypocrites hath may be such for reprobation and ministerie though not for Apostleship That which I like of in this Treatise of yours I will either alow by some short speach or else passe ouer with silence Cauiling and wrangling become not such as professe and loue the Religion If none may be a Minister in Gods Church by Gods order but such as are members that is engraffed into Gods Church it is a good consequent that none in the time of the Law might be a Leuiticall Priest which was vncircumcised Which point you dealt very strāgly in before It is true that none might be a Leuiticall priest which was not a Iewe by profession and of the line of Aaron but yet not euery one of Aarons line if he were vnfit for that holy functiō might be admitted to the Leuiticall priesthood as you gaue out before very absurdly No popish Priest as hee is a popish Priest is accompted a Minister in our Church If you thinke otherwise you thinke amisse for I can assure you that none which haue bene popish Priestes either did or doe administer in our Church without the allowance of our Church I confesse they receiue not imposition of handes againe either in our Church or in other reformed Churches If Circumcision was amongst the Ismaelites and Edomites as you write and I affirme then a Sacrament was amongst them I pray you remember this The Priestes of Idumea I graunt were not Priestes in deede that is they were not lawfull and good Ministers of God for they had no lawfull calling yet they had a calling though a faultie one Otherwise Circumcision administred by them had bene no Sacrament That which decemeth you is that you do not distinguish betweene a lawfull and good Minister of God and a Minister betweene a lawfull calling and a calling c. I. Penry Whereas in the assumption or second part of both the reasons I deny popish Priests to be members of the Church my meaning is not that there are none of the elect within the body of Popery whom the Lord may cal in his good time For I woulde not deny this vnto Mahometisme or that there are not left in Popery certaine rubishes steps of true Religion for this difference I make betwene them and other Infidels though the Iewes also may claime this vnto themselues But I meane that the Popish religion is such a religion as whosoeuer liueth dieth in the profession thereof he liueth and dieth out of the Church where saluation is not possibly to be had for any thing that is made knowen vnto man Whence it necessarily foloweth that in Popery there is no Church If it be obiected that the Papists are within the Couenant inasmuch as long since they professed the trueth Mine answere will be that Popery was neuer the trueth as yet that no Papist in that hee was a Papist euer professed the trueth and that God made no Couenant with professed Idolaters as all Papists are R. Some Your Minor propositions in your two first arguments are viz. No popish priest is by profession a mēber of the church And No popish priest hath an office within the bodie of the Church My answer is If by church in your Minor propositiōs you meane a sound Church I grant that no popish priest as he is a popish priest and a professed papist is either a member by profession or hath an office within the bodie of the Church If by Church you meane an vnsound Church My answer is that a popish priest is a member hath an office within the body of the church My reason is the popish church is a church though an vnsound church For proofe of this I haue vsed diuerse reasons in this Treatise I referre you to them If they wil not downe with you you must confute the seuerall writings of Caluine in his Institutions Commentaries and Epistles of other famous men and condemne the iudgement of all the reformed churches If your stomacke serue you you haue matter inough to work on more thē you were wel aware of That steps of true Religion remaine in the Popish Church it is manifest for God preserued in that Church verbum suum baptismum That is his Word and Baptisme Beza in Annot. Matt. 23.2 Yea we of the Religion haue receiued many good things from the papists as the Israelites did the Arke frō the Philistines I graunt that the Iewes haue many good things amōgst them yet there is great difference betwene Iewes papists The papist receiueth the new Testamēt so doth not the Iew. The papist doth not vse circūcision because the date of it is out but baptisme which is an engraffing into Christ The Iewe retaineth circumcision doth not admit baptisme That the papists are not altogether aliens frō Gods couenant I haue shewed before and doe rest in M. Caluines iudgement for that point You write that poperie was neuer the trueth as yet If you meane that all poperie was neuer the trueth as yet I agree with you If you meane that no part in poperie was euer the trueth as yet you erre grossely and are refuted by your owne words which are that there are certaine steppes of true religion in poperie You giue out that no papist in that

is very like that you haue forgottē it Such trifles are too base for your great spirits Your second reason is The corrupt approbation of vnpreaching Ministers so you name the best outward calling they can haue of the Church is not so forcible to make them Ministers as was the ordinance of God to make the sonnes of Aaron sacrificing at Ierusalē to be priestes therefore an Argument from the Leuiticall priesthood is not forcible for vnpreaching Ministers My answer is I deny your antecedent and do adde this first that it is as lawfull that is to say vtterly vnlawfull to make vnfit Ministers now as it was before to make vnfit priestes Secondly that it was not Gods pleasure that all the posteritie of Aaron without exception that is tagge and ragge shoulde be admitted to the holy priesthood For neither you nor any man aliue may reason thus The Leuiticall priesthoode must rest in the tribe of Leui therefore euery one of that tribe though vnfit for that holy functiō was to be admitted to the priesthoode You might very soundly haue disputed thus The Leuiticall priesthood must be kept within the compasse of the tribe of Leui by Gods expresse commaundement Num. 3. therefore no stranger might come neere the Lords altar You call the best outward calling in the Church of England a corrupt approbation If you meane it is corrupt in admitting ignorant men to the holy Ministerie so was the ordeyning of ignorāt Leuites at Ierusalem If you meane that the best outward calling in the Church of Englād is simply corrupt that is none at al though sufficient men be admitted I detest your Anabaptistical fancie for then the worthiest Diuines in this land are no Ministers Besides it is confessed of all famous learned men that Gods Church is not necessarily tied in all places and times to one forme in the externall calling of the ministers CHAP. 12. I. Penry THE CORRVPT ALLOWance of the Church cannot make our readers to be substantiall Ministers FOr so all men women without or within the Church might be capable of the Ministerie because all may be capable of this outward allowance Secondly and particularly a man not furnished with naturall capacitie thirdly a man that could not reade though he wanted also the gift of interpretation for such a one might recite the liturgie without the booke fourthly the Church might make a man Minister against his will though he should neuer consent thereunto And this is the willingnes that I meane when I say that the inward calling is conteined in the sufficiencie of giftes and willingnes to practise which willingnes I gather vpon the wordes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 vsed of the Apostle 1. Tim. 3.1 Your reason therefore from the malicious Philippian Ministers toucheth not the question Thus Caiphas with his crew of vnworthy and monstrous priestes who within a few pages in your booke haue impudently so often troubled the Reader is answered And I thinke it a great iudgement of God that the ornaments of our English and Welch Ministery for the most part consisteth in the deformitie of such lothsome spots R. Some If by substantial Ministers you meane such as are furnished with giftes in good measure it is the peculiar office of God to make such either miraculously as hee did the Prophets and many in the Primitiue Church or by blessing mens godly studies as in later and our times It passeth the Churches reach by any externall calling to make men furnished ministers which before the external allowance were not furnished by God himselfe therefore to bee of the line of Aaron did make the ignorant Leuites no more to be substantiall priestes then the externall calling nowe doeth make ignorant men to be substantiall Ministers The summe of your reasons may be shut vp briefly in this argument All may be capable as you say of the outward allowance therefore the outward calling of the Church makes not a Minister to vs vnlesse he haue the inward Your antecedent is a speciall one If you were not strangely caried some branches of it might haue bene kept in I trust you do not condemne a prescript liturgie in the Church of God If you do all the reformed Churches dissent from you and their practise doeth apparantly confute you But I leaue that and denie your argument My reasons are first the ignorant Leuites had an outward calling but not an inward yet they were lawful priests by your owne confession Secondly Iudas was called outwardly but not inwardly yet he was an Apostle Lastly the Apostle chargeth Timothee not to lay handes rashly on any 1. Tim. 5. therefore the outwarde allowance is more then you accompt of My reason from the cōtentious Ministers of Philippi c. was a very sure one did ouerthrow your fancie Because you cannot answere it you tell me it toucheth not the question A briefe kinde of answering Caiphas and the Leuiticall priests haue bene alledged no otherwise by mee then by those worthy men Caluine Beza c. before mee The mention of them hath not troubled the godly Reader at al therefore not impudently as you giue out very sawcily I perceiue they haue distempered you for in steade of answering my argument you exclaime vpon them Your gift in answering is very rare You make wash-way of the weightiest argumēts Vnto the lothsome spots in the English and Welch Ministery God graunt either soueraigne medicine to cure them or sounde expulsion to remoue them R. Some Lastly if your antecedent be true viz. that they of whose ministerie there is a nullitie before God although they haue an outward calling ought not to be accōpted ministers what say you to this proposition They of whose magistracie there is a nullitie before God though they haue an outward calling ought not to be accompted magistrates Doe you not thinke this proposition to bee very dangerous I could presse and follow this very farre but I abstaine of purpose I. Penry You demaund what I thinke of this proposition Surely my iudgement is that it is altogether without sense and ouerthroweth it selfe for it is as if you sayd he of whose faith there is a nullitie before God though he be assured of his saluation is not to be accompted a faithfull man Why to be assured of saluation and to haue a nullitie of faith before God can not stand together No more can the outward calling of the magistracy stand with the nullitie thereof For the outward calling maketh a substantiall magistrate But M. Some where is that reason which you could presse so farre is this it they of whose magistracy there is a nullity before God ought not to be accompted magistrates I say your proposition is true assume what you will you know what maner of nullitie I meane R. Some My proposition in your iudgement is without sense You are very peremptory A word I perceiue and a blowe I may say truely that your answere is without sense