one of these either expresse word of God or evident consequence â—ut of it And a little before Every wrangling Disputer may neither deny nor doubtfully dispute much lesse obstinately oppose the Determinations of the Church no not when they are Dogmata deposita Deposed Principles P. Now all these Passages weighed together do clearely and distinctly resolve themselves into these Conclusions 1. That the Church may decide and determine some things without any evidence or so much as a probable Testimony of holy Writ and herein you consent and jumpe fully with that notorious Papist and adversary of the once Church of England Stapleton whom the learned Dr. Whitakers publickly confuted in the Divinity Schooles in Cambridge as his Works can yet testifie And yet behold now the Church of England hath got a Champion in the Chaire of Canterbury who pleads for and applauds that in Stapleton which Dr. Whitakers and many other learned Divines in England formerly have refuted And for further Confirmation hereof you tax Bellarmine as of untruth where he confesses that nothing may be certaine by certâ—inty of Faith unlesse it be contained immediately in the word of God or be deduced thence by evident consequence Whereupon you inferre that if nothing can be certaine then certainly no Determination of the Church it selfe wanting expresse word or evident Consequence out of it Thus you condemne Bellarmines true Saying if by the Word of God he understand the Scriptum alone and not his word unwritten and approve and preferre Stapletons false and hereticall sentence before it Secondly That things so decided and determined by the Church without either evident or so much as probable Testimony of holy writ yet are so de fide so firmely to be beleeved as every wrangling Disputer may neither deny nor doubtfully dispute much lesse obstinately oppose Consonant hereunto you â—ay at after pag. 224. The Determination of a Generall Councel â—â—ring is to stand in force and to have externall obedience at least yeelded to it till evidence of Scripture or a Demonstration to the Contrary make the errour appeare and untill thereupon another Councel of equall Authority do reverse it And so also pag. 226. c. Where here I mention for clearer proofe of what you say here but not to anticipate or prevent our fuller Answere when we come to those places where we shall supply our brevity here L. p. 40. I hope A. C. will not tells us there 's any Tradition extant unwritten by which particular men may have assurance of their Severall Salvations P. But what think you of it Will you tell us there is no such thing written in the Scripture That true Beleevers may have assurance of their owne Salvation But if there be why doe you forbid Preachers to meddle with it considering the true and solid comfort which it bringeth to him that hath it As the 17 th Article confesseth might it be suffered to speake out and had you not put a gagge in the mouth of it L. p. 43. Mine is That the beliefe of Scripture to be the word of God and infallible is an equall or rather a preceding prime Principle of Faith wâ—th or rather to the whole body of the Creed P. How The Belief of Scripture to be Gods word and infallible no more but an equall or rather a preceding prime Principle of Faith with or rather to the whole body of the Creed This is yours you say your Saying And I beleeve it to be yours For it is as like to one of your Sayings as may be For here you attribute no more credit to the Scriptures then to the Creed both equall onely differing perhaps in point of some precedencie of time or So with an or rather equall or rather preceding the difference not great if any Thus doe you not equall a Church Tradition with the Divine Scripture For we have it by Tradition that the Apostles compiled the Creed and each his Severall Article And is this or any other Tradition of equall Credit with Scripture And is not the Scripture the Rule whereby the Articles of the Creed are to be interpreted which are no otherwise to be beleeved but as they are agreeable to the Scripture So as for the Purpose if you goe no further for the Sense of the Article of Christs Descent into hell then the very Letter of the Article you can make no Sense of it nor give any reason for it And how then can you give a reason of your Faith in this particular Except you do beleeve it because you do beleeve it and because the words are He Descended into Hell But of this more by and by L. p. 44. Some Traditions I deny not c. to be Apostolicall but yet not fundamentall in the Faith P. You might do well to point out unto us which be those your Apostolicall Traditions that we may distinguish them from those Traditions which Rome calls Apostolicall Or rather perhaps you admit of all those as Apostolicall indeed but yet not Fundamentall Surely if you can prove them to be truely Apostolicall namely that the Apostles delivered them immediately to the Church by word of mouth why are they not fundamentall in the faith Why are not all bound to beleeve them or give as much Credit to them as to the Articles of your Creed which you Say are fundamentall in the faith L. p. 45. The Church of England taketh the words He descended into hell as they are in the Creed and beleeves them without further Dispute and in that Sense which the ancient Primitive Fathers of the Church agreed in P. Here a Question may be moved 1. In generall Whether a man taking up a matter upon such trust as he gives equall beliefe unto it as to the Scriptures themselves doe not therein Sinne damnably As making that a fundamentall ground of his Faith which is not found to be in the Scripture Secondly in particular Whether a man resting in the very Letter of the Article He descended into Hell beleeving thâ—reupon as surely as he beleeves that God is in Heaven that Christs Soule did locally descend into Hell among the damned there having no regard at all to what the Scripture Saith of it whether the Scripture Say any such thing or no doe not hereby make way for his owne Descent into Hell Or thirdly Whteher you do as verily and firmly beleeve Christs Descent into Hell as you doe his Ascent into Heaven Seeing the Scriptures Speakes clearely and expresly of this but not so of that and whether you are aâ— much bound to beleeve his Descent into Hell because you find such words in the Creed as his Ascent into Heaven because you find it in the Scripture Now for Answere to all these together I conceive that to make any thing of the necessity of Faith to Salvation besides what is found in the Scripture is Sinne and in particular to beleeve that because it is Said in the Creed He Descended into Hell therefore Christ
Protestants except not against it For this difference de Modo of the manner of the Presence of Christs naturall Body in the Sacrament we have spoken before at large And was this Difference trow you so small that cost both Ridley and Cranmer and Frith their lives For you cite them all 3 in one Page calling them the learned of those zealous in Queen Maries dayes Martyrs you do not call them beware of that So as times kà rin for honour sake you mention them not So you cite Calvin a little before whom in the High Commission you honoured with the Title of Rascall And these Martyrs are they whom one of your Divines of note and worth Dr. Heylin in a Booke licensed by your Chaplein stiles with the Honourable Title of Schismaticall Hereticks But to let this passe for currant with you The summe of your whole passage touching this point from pag. 292. to 296. is to perswade us to acknowledge a reall presence of Christs naturall body in the Sacrament onely differing from the Papists quoad moaum as touching the manner of presence Now I confesse this is a very pretty and ready way to lead to your Reconciliation But let me tell you even words and names and verball expressions are of no small force many times to lead men into great errours although at first they meant no harme that used them For instance The Primitive Fathers when they began to call the Lords Table an Altar they little dreamed what an Altar it would prove afterwards as wheron to offer up in sacrifice Christs naturall body So when they called Ministers Priests they imagined not that those Priests would prove afterwards such sacrificing Priests as now are in the Church of Rome And when they called the Lords supper a sacrifice which they meant to be Eucharisticall of thanksgiving they never suspected that this would become afterwards a corporall sacrifice of Christs very body and bâ—ood And yet these very Names so taken up gave occasion afterwards of setting up the greatest Idol that ever was in the world as we see at this day So dangerous is it to expresse Divine matters by any other Name then what the Scripture hath given them Seeing then that in Scripture we find no such words as Reall Presence of Christs naturall body in the Sacrament it is not safe for Christians to take them up And so much the more because we see by experience the mischiefes that this reall presence so called and so understood as the Papists doe hath done in the Church of God How many Martyrs hath it made How much innocent blood hath it spilt So as it hath gotten and that deservedly a very bad Name And it is the Name or Word wherby the Romanists expresse their Great Idol in the Masse And David saith Their Drinke offerings of Blood will I not offer nor take up their Names into my lips So as Christians ought not to use the Names of Idols invented by man to expresse Divine things of Scripture by Yea K. Hezechiah when the Brazen Serpent which God himselfe had commanded to be made for the present occasion in the Wildernesse though he commanded it not to be kept for a Monument began to be abused unto Idolatry he brake it to pieces And so in this case though these words The Reall Presence may beare a good sense yet being and that of long time abused to the setting up and upholding of most grosse Idolatry we are to stamp it to powder and never use it more And we have as little reason to be perswaded hereto by your Lordship as by any For as this word Reall presence is very suspicious in it selfe and much more in regard of the Papists abusing of it so it wants not suspicion that you so commend it unto us First in regard of the whole matter of your Book which generally complyes with Popery Secondly in regard of the main scope of your Booke which is to bring on a Reconciliation with Rome And Thirdly and more especially in regard of some speeches which have now and then dropped from you in publick Court where speaking of Altars-placing you said you would have none to sit above God-Allmighty which must needs imply as before is noted that either your Altar is your God Allmighty or els God Allmighty hath a locall presence and residence there upon your Altar And so Fourthly your eager zeale in promoting of Altars makes us much to suspect your Reall Presence as fearing all will not be well when once we have taken up and let down this Reall presence of God Allmighty into our bellies And so also Fiftly your Priests by that Name doe increase the suspition And Sixtly because you tell us before of a Transubstantiation taken properly and improperly And Seventhly Because you tell us by and by that Transubstantiation Purgatory Forbearance of the Cup are but Disputed and Improbable Opinions Lastly it is used to Idolatry and so to be broken in pieces as the Brazen Serpent was And therfore for all these Reasons we desire not to be troubled with your Reall presence but leave it to the Papists or to you to restore it where you had it or if you like it so well to use it let it be to your selfe or Chappell at Lambeth trouble not the Church of England with it any more which desireth not more matter for a new Booke of Martyrs Now to come to the Martyrs First for Ioh. Friths words Not to make it an Article of Faith but leave it Indifferent First However the words sound we must weigh them by the sense And the best Commentary of his words is his death which he suffered even therfore because he made it an Article of his faith to beleeve that Christ was not Really Present in the Sacrament as the Papists do hold and therfore on the contrary he held it as an Article of his faith That Christ was onely vertually and spiritually present to the Faith of the Receiver according to the true meaning of those Sacramentall words This is my body as a little before we shewed Secondly to take Friths words in your sense doth overthrow a Christians faith as touching the Sacrament wherein the beleever receives and applyes by faith the merits of Christs death to the comforting nourishing and strengthning of his soule And a man is bound to beleeve aright concerning the Sacrament and to put a maine difference between truth and erroâ—â— therein And is it not an Article of Faith to beleeve Christs body not to be corporally present in the Sacrament seeing he saith Me have you not alwayes It is expedient for you that I goe away who sits at Gods right hand whom the heavens must receive till his coming againe And lastly admit his words may be stretched to the full bredth of your sense which is erronious wee must measure all mens words by the Rule of Scripture in divin matters If they dissent or come short or goe
about Altars Prelates Calling Ceremonies Now if they should consult your Lordship Siting in the Chaire of Canterbury to resolve them in these difficulties what would be your finall determination of them For the first would you not alledge Heb. 13.10 We have an Altar For the second Psal. 45.16 Princes in all Lands that is Prelates For the Third to wit Ceremonies 1 Cor. 14.40 Let all things be done decently and in Order Ergo what Ceremonies the Bishop shall injoyne you must observe These are your Glosses and such interpretations as these we must looke for of your Church Such as the Church of Rome is very dextrous and expert in As This is my body Ergo The Bread is transubstantiated into Christs very body I have prayed for thee Peter Ergo the Pope cannot erre Launch out into the deep Ergo the Pope may fish all the world Arise Peter Kill and eat Ergo the Pope may kill the Venetians As it were by fire Ergo there is a Purgatory Thus the Scripture where 't is plaine should guide the Church otherwise not but in doubt and difficulty the Church should expound the Scripture that is guide the Scripture Ergo the Church is above the Scripture because onely where 't is plaine it guides the Church but where difficult the Church must guide it interpret it In difficulties then the Scripture it must not guide the Church Ergo in difficulties and doubts the Church may interpret as She pleaseth No not so for you adde ibid. Saying Yet so as neither the the Scripture should be forced nor the Church so bound up as that upon just and further evidence She may not revise that which in any Case â—ath slipt by her P. Here be two things enterfeerinch each other First a Caution Secondly a Condition The Caution That the Scripture be not forced Take heed of that But who shall Judge of that Even the Same that forceth it the Church And who shall defend that Scripture from forcing if it be left to mens interpritation and those men in matters of doubt and difficulty are not guided by the Scripture but the Scripture by the Churches interpretation But in no Case let the Scripture be forced You will have a care of that But why then doe you show your selfe so expert in forcing and misapplying the Scripture and that most pittifully as both hath been shewed and will all along appeare But however the Condition will helpe all Forcing or not forcing the Church must not be bound but that upon just and further Evidence She may revise that which in any Case hath slipt by her Now what is this just and further Evidence Or what this Revising And what this Sliping by her I take the Sense and Summe of all to be this That here you lay your ground to make way for an Index expurgatorious to revise But is that all Nay 't is implyed that some thing els be done as to correct and expunge or at least more clearely interpret but indeed to expunge with a Deleatur let it be blotted out whatsoever in any Books formerly Printed by Authority in England hath in any Case slipped by her or if the maine Subject of the Book be not Catholick and consonant to the Doctrines of the present Church that they may be censured as Prohibited Bookes and so una Litura cancelled And withall whatsoever you find in any Books which you do not very well resent to declare which be the Doctrines of the Church of England and which private mens opinions And 't will be requisite in my judgement that you hasten this worke to dispatch it in your time least if you die such another Phoenix will hardly arise out of your Ashes that will have the courage to adventure upon these things But among all other things leave us not in that perplexed estate whereinto you have brought us by your Declaration before the Articles of Religion but make us a New Declaration to certifie us what to beleeve and rather resolve us plainly that the Articles are to be taken in that sense which agreeth with your own opinion then that they should give an uncertain sound for then who shall prepare himselfe to the battell And there may be great reason why we should preferre your Lordships opinion before the judgement of all other those learned men that have formerly lived in the Church of England because the Church may now see more and further into a Milstone then of old as a Dwarfe upon a Giants shoulders And so what slippes have formerly passed by the Church of England your Lordship with your Chapleins and Divines will so revise and repurg as there shal be nothing left upon record whereby it might appeare to Posterity that there is any such difference between the Church of England and of Rome as to hinder their most wished and desirable reconciliation And I think I am not in this farre wide of your Project The Wardens of the Company of STATIONERS can tell what you lately gave them in Charge about such a matter for the revising of Puritan Books that so when you have purged out the Puritanism there may be neither Purity nor Verity left As I remember the Orator said of a certaine Roman that he alwayes had his head and eye-browes Shaven that men might take him not to have one haire of a good man Thus when you have given such Books a dry shaving you will make them to appeare as ridiculous as Davids Messengers whom the young Ammonitish King took and caused halfe their beards to be Shaven off and their garments to be curtalled to their bare buttocks But herein you prudently follow both the example of Rome and the Counsell of Franciscus â S. Clara who commends you for seting afoot this Project But I hope the Stationers will look a little better to their tò méros â—rgasÃa the gaine of their Trade and that which is their Freehold and Livelyhood as well knowing that if the good Books be guelt of their masculine vertue and verity none will buy them except perhaps Chandlers to stop their Mustard pots and put about their Candles And then should the Company of Book sellers and their Posterity be deprived of the benefit of their Coppies which are as a Coppy-hold of Inheritance to them and theirs But time will try all things L. p. 18. And though I cannot prophesie yet I feare that Atheisme and Irreligion gather strength while the truth is thus weakened by an unworthy way of contending P. Cannot you prophesie being the High Priest of England as that High Priest did that it was necessary Christ should dye that the whole Nation perish not So cannot you prophesie That it is necessary that all Puritans Christs members should perish that the whole Generation and Hierarchy of Priests perish not But though you cannot no more then Balaam prophesie or bring an Inchantment against the Children of Israel that God should
you a reason of my Faith Can you give one reason of yours concerning this Article as you take and beleeve it with your Church of England Show but one reason or shadow of a reason out of Scripture Nay except you bring every Article of the Creed to the examen or tryall of Scripture for the staying and establishing of your Faith you may run into many monstrous errours What doe you beleeve concerning Christs death You beleeve that hee dyed But for whom Whether for the Elect onely in Gods Purpose Account Appointment Acceptance or universally for all men Elect and Reprobate I tell you my Lord if you beleeve that Christ dyed for all men universally as well for the Reprobate as the Elect you destroy both Gods Grace in giving Christ for his people onely the Elect and also the merit and effâ—icacy of Christs death The Scripture shewes these things aboundantly But I mention this onely by the way Againe What doe you beleeve concerning the holy Catholicke Church You beleeve I dare say and you doe say it that the Catholicke Church on earth consists visibly of all Prelates and those that are subject unto them as one intire Body This is your Faith But if you examine this by the Scripture you will find it to be an Errour no lesse soule then false as hath been shewed So doe you not beleeve the Article of the Communion of Saints You doe But who are your Saints on earth You will hardly allow any Saints on earth till after their death they be Canonized by his Holinesse at Rome Nay in plaine termes you persecute both the Saints themselves and their Communion Can you indure such as but professe holinesse And for their Communion doe you not hunt out and persecute Private Fasting and Prayer among the poore soules of Christ when publick they can have none and no other remedy or weapons are left them to defend themselves withall against your bloody Cruelty So as the truth is you neither rightly beleeve the Holy Catholicke Church nor the Communion of Saints but are a notorious both denyeâ— and persecuter of both And therefore we see what a necessity there is that we should bring the Articles of the Creed to the Standard Rule the Scripture both as the surest and safest way yea and the onely way to preserve our Faith from Errour But you object the Fathers for the Sense of this Article of Christs Descent into hell as you beleeve it What if they beleeved so Is their example a sufficient Rule for us We must examine their sense they held of it by the Scripture If it be not according to the Scripture we reject it The Fathers might for a time hold an erronious generally received opinion before it came to be controverted and well sifted and examined by Scripture But they were ever ready to have their faith and opinions tryed by the Scriptures All the ancient Fathers were of this mind and spirit As before Pelagius his time the Fathers spake too liberally of Mans Free-will which after upon his Heresie they reformed and by Scripture abundantly confuted the Pelagians and especially Augustine Ierome Prosper Fulgentius Hilarius and others And Augustine inticing a Donatist to dispute about that Heresie Saith unto him Ratione agamus divinarum Scripturarum authoritate agamus Let us dispute the matter by Argument let us be guided by the Authority of the Divine Scriptures Not what I and thou Say but what Christ Saith And this was the Spirit I say and practise of all the Fathers in such cases So as if this Article of of Christs descent into hell had been by occasion of controversie about it well searched into and examined by the Scripture no doubt but the Fathers would therein have regulated their Faith according to the truth of Scripture But the Church of England say you holds and beleeves that Article as you doe No marvaile when you doe And should you hold otherwise must it not doe so too And yet we have but your bare word for it But you will alledge your Article That Christ went downe into hell But we must examine your Article by the Scripture And it is not the sound of your Article but the sense and that it agreeth with Scripture But we have shewed that no such thing is in Scripture And you tell us withall what Mr. Rogers upon the Articles saith of this That then Then I say in diebus illis the Church of England was not resolved of this Article and he was then the Arch-bishop of Canterbury his Chaplein your Predecessor Richard Bancroft But now your Lordships bare word is enough to Sway the Ballance which before stood but in aequilibrio in an even peize not resolved but now resolved But this I can tell you what ever your Church of England now beleeves there is and I hope a good sound Church of Christ yet in England that beleeves the Creed and all the Articles thereof and this in particular no otherwise then they find them agreeable to the Scripture and the Analogy of Faith And this is agreeable to that which once a Prelâ—te of England said By the generall confâ—ssion of all Antiquity Traditions must he warranted by the Scriptures or els we must reject them And Isidore saith A Prelate if he teach or command any thing besides that which is evidently cammanded in the holy Scriptures let him be taken for a false witnâ—ssie to God and a committer of Sacriledge But looking a little further I find you confessing That the Church of England hath not determined as yet either way by open Declaration upon this Article No hath she not How then doe you affirme and would perswade us that you beleeve with the Church of England that Christ descended into hell without any further Dispute We hope therefore it will not be long before your Declaration come forth with a Definitive Sentence determining the sense of this Article one way or other And the rather because in the late Declaration before the Articles wherein this Article of Christs going down into hell is particularly set downe for one they are declared to be of ambiguous sense and yet men must hold to the letter of the Article So as by that Declaration we are lesse resolved of the Articles then before A new Declaration therefore we would faine see which is cleare Declarative and Determinative and therein tell us whether Christs Soule descended into Hell the place of the damned or into Purgatory the Suburbs of hell and whether Locally and for what end and purpose because the Scripture is altogether silent in this whole mystery and whether you find hell to be in the Center of the Earth or no because your Article saith He went down into hell c. But in the mean time I have for my part ingenuously given you a reason of my Faith touching this Article which I am so resolved on by the Scripture that whatsoever Declaration you or your Church of England
tâ—e Rule and Foundation of our Faith but what we find written in the holy Scriptures This is that word of God which is authenticall of Authority to his Church and therefore Authority to us because written So as your unwritten word whereiâ— you agree with Bellarmine and your Apostolicke Traditions wherin you come home to your A. C. the Jesuite we receive none of them all as authentick or to have any thing to doe to expound the Scripture in any doubt about the Faith But if you can shew us any Traditions Apostolick we will by your leave examine them by the Scriptures and not the Scriptures by them You name baptizing of Infants for a Tradition Apostolicke We doubt not but the Apostles baptized the Infants of beleeving Parents For the Infants or Children of such are holy as the Apostle sheweth And so they belonged to the Covenant And as the Children of the Jewes in the old Testament were circumcised as pertaining to the Covenant and promise made to Abraham and to his Seed So Baptisme succeding in place of Circumcision as a Seale of the Same Covenant belongs to all Children of beleeving Christian Parents As the Apostle saith Therefore it is of Faith that it might come by Grace and the Promise might be sure to all the Seed not to that onely which is of the Law but to that also which is of the Faith of Abrahâ—m who is the Father of us all So as beleeving Christians have the same interest in the Covenant with Abraham and their Children or Infants have the like priviledge of Baptisme as the Infants of the ancient Israelites had for Circumcision Therefore the Baptizing of Infants was certainly practised by the Apostles as well as the baptising of beleeving Parents So as we doe not baptize Infants because you tell us it is a Tradition Apostolicke but because it is as clearely and firmely grounded in the Scripture as the baptizing of beleeving Parents We exclude therefore whatsoever Word unwritten or Traditions Apostolicke as you call them as being either partiall or equall Rules of Faith with the Scriptures as Bellarmine calls them or as Interpreters and Iudges of the Scripture in doubts about Faith as you are bold to affirme We have no word of God but the Scripture we acknowledge no Traditions Apostolicke but what we find they delivered in Scripture The Prophets in the old Testament sent Gods people to the Scripture for information instruction resolution in all matters of Faith and Cases of Conscience To the Law and to the Testimony Saith Isaiah if they Speake not according to this word it is because there is no light in them He Saith not To the Traditions of our Fathers but To the Law and to the Testimony Gods word written Els there is no light in men they are blind guides that in matters of Faith lead us any where but to and by the Scriptures And the Prophet Ieremiah They have rejected the word of the Lord and what wisedome is in them All wisdome without this word of God is foolishnesse all knowledge without this is ignorance and blindnesse So our Saviour Christ Search the Scriptures for in them ye thinke to find eternall life and they are they which testifie of me So as Christ allowes us no other Testimony of him and of Faith in him but the Scriptures We must erunan Search them not the Archives or Sacraries of blind Traditions though guilded over never so faire with the name of Apostolick nor of any pretended word of God unwritten And Christ answereth the Lawyer when he asked what he should doe to inherit Eternall life What is written in the Law How readest thou And the Apostle That none presume above that which is written And Whatsoever things were written afore time were written for our learning that we through patience and comfort of the Scriptures might have hope And Peter We have a more sure word of Prophecy to wit the Scriptures of the old Testament whereunto ye doe well that ye take heed In all which places and many more the Scripture is still commended to us as the onely absolute sufficient perfect and compleat Rule of our Faith in all matters or doubts of Faith touching our Salvation So as it hath no other interpreter but it selfe not any Tradition not any word unwritten But of this you will give us occasion to speak more at after L. p. 72 73. Faith is the gift of God of God alone and an Infused habit in respect whereof the soule is meerely recipient The Sole Infuser is the Holy Ghost Till the Spirit of God move the heart of man he cannot beleeve P. I confesse when first I read these words I began to muse with my selfe and to argue thus What is my Lord of Canterbury turn'd Orthodox no Arminian in the Doctrine of Grace But looking a little further and observing both the Authors you alledge as Stapleton a great man with you and other Popish Authors as is usuall with you throughout your Book and also considering of what Faith you here Speak I changed my conceit and found that you were no Changeling For wheras I thought that all this faire â—â—ourish of Faith is the gift of God of God alone A habit infused The Holy Ghost the Sole Infuser The soule meerely recipient Till Gods Spirit move mans heart he cannot beleeve had been meant of that Grace of Saving and Iustifying Faith which the Scripture teacheth and particularly the Apostle Ephes. 2.8 By Grace ye are saved through Faith and not of your selves it is the Gift of God c. I imagined I say that as you used the Apostles very words and the Language of Scripture so you had done it in the sense and mind of the Apostle and of the Scripture which Speaks so of the Saving and Iustifying Faith But when I found the contrary I confesse I blushed at my folly in having such a conceit of you having had so much experience both of your usuall perverting of Scriptures and your corrupt sense throughout your Book and considering that light and darknesse cannot stand together and how you hâ—ve altogether suppressed the Preaching of the Doctrines of Grace and finding that all this Faith you Speake of is nothing els but that historicall Faith in beleeving the Scriptures to be the word of God which beliefe is common to the very Reprobates and Devils themselves who beleeve and tremble Phristouâ—i they quiver and Shake as when mens teeth Chatter in their head in extreme cold And yet how doe you abuse the Scripture and your Reader in giving to this Faith those peculiar Attributes which are proper and peculiar to the onely Saving Grace of Saving Faith the Sole Infuser Giver and worker whereof is the Holy Ghost Tell me how come the Devils to that historicall faith whereby they beleeve the Scripture to be the very word of God and all things therein to be most certainly true and so all
as you imposed upon me So as No Right that is No Orthodox Church at Rome And yet no newes it is that I granted the Roman Church to be a true Church For so much very learned Protestants have acknowledged before me and the Truth cannot deny it For that Church which receives the Scripture as the Rule of Faith though but as a partiall and imperfect Rule and both the Sacraments as instrumentall Causes and seales of Grace though they adde more and infuse these yet cannot but be a True Church in Essence How it is in manners and Doctrine I would you would loâ—ke to it with a single eye P. Not Right then not Orthodox you hold the Church of Rome to be That 's somthing yet Yet True you ever have and will hold her to be unlesse she absolutely fall away from the Faith Well And yet I wot well you give absolutely falling away from the Faith So large bounds as it is to be feared you will never come to give her for absolutely gone and fallen away from the Faith so long as she can have but one bare thread or ragge of the profession of the Faith of the Creed nay if she can but say over her Creed though as you Confesse elsewhere she hath quite overthrown the sense of it And if the sense of it be destroyed surely the Faith of it also This will more fully appeare as we goe along We come to your Reasons why you hold Rome a True Church 1. For very learned Protestants which hold with you in this First we can set both as learned and double the number of of Protestants who will weigh down the Scale against those that seem to be of your opinion Secondly we could out of those very Protestant Authors whom you mean though I suppose you seldome read such Authors and in other things scarce name them Honoris causa collect more against this opinion That the Church of Rome is a true Church then you can for it As out of Iunius himselfe for Instance I mentioned before a laâ—e Book intituled Babel no Bethel never yet answered by any Jesuite or other Priest Romish or English where the Author hath cleared all or most of those Protestants which his Adversaries alledged and I suppose you meane from this opinion of yours And then also the Author proves by many concluding Arguments and in my opinion unanswerable that the Church of Rome is no true visible Church of Christ as having lost the very Essence of a true Church To which Booke I referre your Lordship could your patience but brook the Authors name or your Conscience not tremble at the mention of him To your Second Reason First I deny that the Church of Rome receives the Scriptures as A Rule of Faith For first The Rule of Faith must be in it selfe simply Divine and Infallible But such to the Church of Rome the Scripture is not For she makes the Infallibility and Divine Authority of the Scripture to depend upon the Church as you do upon Church Tradition which you confesse to be not simply Divine and Infallible Ergo Rome receives not the Scripture as A Rule of Faith Secondly Rome receives not holds not The Rule of Faith Ergo she is not a true Church As the late Dr Carleton of Chichester in his Book of the Church hath well and learnedly proved For not to hold the Rule of Faith is to deny and destroy the Faith and to fall absolutely away from the Foundation of Faith and to set up a new and false Faith upon a new and false Foundation Nor dare or doe you say that Rome receives the Scripture as The Rule of Faith but onely as A Rule of Faith to wit a partiall Rule as Bellarmine calls it But if the Scripture be as it is The onely Rule of Faith and ever hath been in all ages so held till Rome in the Councel of Trent changed this Rule then not to hold it so for The Rule that is the onely Rule but onely as a partiall Rule joyned with other Rules equall to it as her Traditions which Bellarmine in his Book de verbo Dei non scripto calls the word of God unwritten is to reject the onely Rule and so to fall absolutely away from the Faith And you confesse that the Church of Rome holds the Scripture but as a partiall and imperfect Rule And is this nothing with you What is this but to evacuate and utterly make voyd the Rule when for a perfect intire and absolute onely Rule it is made but a partiall imperfect and joynt Rule And when humane Authority is equalled with Divine Humane Traditions with Divine Scriptures as an equall Rule of Faith Nay and those her Traditions which she calls her word of God unwritten are such as teach things directly contrary to the Doctrines of Scripture as of Purgatory Invocation of Saints and the like Is not this a'kurosai as Christ saith to make voyd and of no Authority the Commandements of God by mens Tradition Yet this Camel you can easily swallow you slight this over as a matter of nothing as if it were all one thing in a manner to hold the Scripture The Rule of Faith and A Rule of Faith namely a part or piece of the Rule The whole Rule and a partiall Rule The onely perfect Rule and An imperfect Rule All this breakes no squares with you but that Rome for all this holds the Rule of Faith and therfore you hold her for a true Church of Christ. But yet in so saying you plainly imply That if Rome held not the Rule of Faith she is no true Church of Christ but is absolutely fallen away from Christ the Foundation For you give this for a Reason that Rome is a true Church because she holds the Rule of Faith Ergo If she hold not the Rule of Faith she is no true Church of Christ but is absolutely fallen away from the Faith Whereupon I argue thus That Church which denyeth the Scripture to be the onely Intire Absolute perfect Rule of Faith is fallen absolutely away from Christ and so ceaseth to be a true Church that is to have the very Essence and beeing of a true Church of Christ But the Church of Rome denyeth the Scripture to be the onely Intire Absolute Perfect Rule of Faith Ergo the Church of Rome is absoluely fallen away from Christ and so ceaseth to be a true Church that is to have the very Essence and beeing of a true Church of Christ. The Minor Proposition is confessed by your Lordship For you say The Church of Rome holds the Scripture but as A Rule a Partiall Rule an Imperfect Rule Thus she denyeth the Scripture to be the onely Intire Absolute Perfect Rule of Faith And for the Major Proposition you doe by necessary Consequence confesse it also to be true For you set it down as a Reason why you hold the Church of Rome to be a true Church because she holds the
in matters of faith as the Shrine of your Predecessor S. Thomas of Canterbury with the keyes of his blind votaries And so much the more in these dayes as wherein you have put all England to a stand and stagger what to beleeve in point of Faith considering that the Articles of Religion like Meteors hang in suspense in the ayre no man knowing what to make of them whether they be white or blacke or what such Comets portend untill to that Edict of the Court that binds up the sense of the Articles fast asleep or in a slumber between Hawke and Buzzard or as a speaking in a dreame you shall superadde the Definitive Decree of the Chaire of Canterbury to interpret unto us what they have dreamed all this while But I suppose the Board calling you so much away from your Chaire you are the more willing and that in such a case of necessity to send all the faithfull to your Ordine primus at Rome and to Peters Chaire there if any such thing be there which may like Iunoes three footed stoole resolve all their doubts And so as you say to A C. Rome may thanke you for it But alwayes provided tha◠Rome first reduce her selfe as you say to the Observation of Tradition Apostolicke and then you will say Latinè plainly That it wil be then necessary for every Church and for the faithfull every where to agree with it to have recourse to Rome and to rest their Faith there where is the most Powerfull Principality And thus as well as I could I have pickt up your meaning wherein if I have come short you must pardon me and blame your selfe for your being no more perspicuous in matters of such moment as about consulting of Oracles considering that that of Apollo and Delphos was long agoe put to silence But to proceed L. p. 199. The Bishop of Rome hath no power from Christ over the whole Church to be Iudge in Controversies nay out of all doubt 't is not the least reason why de facto he hath so little successe because de Jure he hath no power given P. Not over the whole Church This seems to imply that the Bishop of Rome hath a power from Christ to be Iudge in Controversies over all the Churches at least within his own more powerfull Principality And consequently that the Primate of Canterbury hath the like power from Christ to be Judge in Controversies over the whole Church of England If you have yet it wil be some ease to the English that they have an Oracle so neare home to resolve them in all doubts so as they need not as formerly go trudge to Rome for the matter But neither to the Pope in his Powerfull Principality nor to you in your Primacy hath Christ given any power at all to be Judge in Controversies of Faith And because you have no Calling nor Commission from Christ therfore 't is true you say in this that the Pope hath no better successe And I pray you what successe have you had since you took upon you to sway the Crosier staffe of Canterbury and to be Judge in Controversies of Faith making and raysing controversies there where there was none before as namely in the Articles of Religion 'T is true you have put many a good Minister to Silence thrust many a one out of his Cure and Countrey levied your way for an universall Conformity to Rome prevailed much in your Designes that way but yet have you any great cause to boast of your successe all things Considered I say no more Verbum sapienti you understand me well enough And certainly when you cast up your reckoning you will find your selfe to be as much behind hand for successe as you do the Pope And your Reason is true because you have no power no Authority no Calling no Commission from Christ either to possesse such a place or to execute such an Office For as the Lord saith in Ieremie speaking of false Prophets I sent them not neither commanded them therfore they shall not profit this people at all saith the Lord. So neither have you reason to thinke that because you may do what you list in turning things upside down in seting up your Altars in suppressing Gods word in oppressing Gods Ministers in advancing your Arminian and Popish faction and you hitherto prosper therein while there is never a man left that dare so much as mutter a word against these your practises so great is your Power and so terrible your Cruelty and Ministers so Cowardly so as by this meanes your Cause and Course seems to prosper while you can crush any that shall interpose himselfe or lawfully in his place oppose your violent courses therfore Christ hath given you this power thus to tyrannise wherein you doe so prosper True it is that Christ hath given way to Satan to rage in these times because he knows he hath but a short time and hereby Christ will try and humble his people that he may doe them good and be glorified in their deliverance and in the destruction of all such Papall and Antichristian Tyranny L. p. 200. The Church being as large as the world Christ thought it fitter to governe it Aristocratically by Divers rather then by One Viceroy And I beleeve that this is true For all the time of the first 300. yeares and somwhat bettter it was governed Aristocratically to wit by the Bishops c. P. Here you give us occasion further to launch into the Deep of this Mystery that we may sound the bottome of it and so discerne what ground it floats upon mudde or sand or both although we have in part discovered it before Here you say and you say you beleeve it too it is an Article of your Creed that Christ thought it fitter to govern the Church Aristocratically by diverse rather then by one Viceroy And you give the Reason The Church being as large as the world We will first take an Assay of your words and then of your Reason For to a vulgar Reader some of your words are somwhat obscure and some also very finely couched that every eye cannot at the first discerne the Mystery of them And first for Aristocratically Aristotle the famous Philosopher and no meane statesman in his Politicks layes down 3 kinds of Civil Government taken in the better part The first is Monarchia which is a government by One the second is Aristocratia which is a Government of the Best Men the third is Democratia which is a Government Popular or of the People Opposite to these three he sets three sorts of bad Government the first is Tyranny which is opposed to Monarchy Tyranny ruling either without or contrary to the good Laws established but a Monarchy governing according to the established good Laws of the State Kingdome or Common-weale The second is Oligarchia which signifies the Government of a few and this standing in opposition to Aristocratia
whatsoever faith is requisite and necessary to salvation as the beliefe of Scripture to be the word of God as is shewed before And this saving faith is the faith of all them that are heires of salvation to wit of all Gods Elect and all the Saints But it seems with Father Bellarmine you have an Implicit faith for your ignorants and an Explicit for you that are great Clerks or the letter of the Creed for those and the sense for these But I handled this also before Onely you propound a Paradox which is no worke for your pen wherein you are the wiser not to take upon you to read or expound such riddles had you been so wise as not to have propounded â— And yet it is the worke of every good Minister of Chrâ—â—t to teach the people what to beleeve and to exhort them to grow in Grace and knowledge and Faith and so declare unto them the whole Counâ—el of God and to keep nothing backe and to build men up in knowledge more and more unto perfection As the Preacher saith Because the Preacher was wise he still taught the people knowledge yea he gave good heed and sought out and set in Order many Proverbs The Preacher sought to find out acceptable words and that which was written was upright even words of truth The words of the wise are aâ— Goads and Nayles fastened by the Masters of Assemblies which are given from one shepheard But this is not a patterne for you to follow neither by your tongue nor pen. You have other imployment for them But though we cannot set a bound to faith in respect of perfection of degrees yet we ought to teach the people all the parts of saving faith and knowledge striving unto perfection And besides it is the duty of every good Minister of Christ to limit and set bounds to all the negatives of faith in discovering all manner of sins and errours which are all contrary and enemies to faith and salvation For which end they must open all the ten Commandements as Christ did Mat. 5. and all other points of saving Doctrine in the Scriptures Now though you have not the skill or will to set bounds how farre men shall beleeve yet you want no will nor power to inhibit and restraine Preachers shewing them how little a way they must goe in teaching the people and so consequently how little a way the people must goe in beleeving and saving knowledge as in restraining and forbidding to preach the Doctrines of Grace as before forbidding Lectures and especially all Sermonâ— on the Lords day afternoon forbidding long Preaching at any time forbidding expounding of the Catethisme as many of your Prelates doe and the like Thus you can finely set men bounds how little thy shall beleeve or know of God to their salvation That 's a worke if not for your pen or hand yet for your head and not unlikely of your hand and pen too L. p. 327. The Romanists dare not beleeve but as the Roman Church beleeves And the Roman Church at this day doth not beleeve the Scripture and the Creeds in the sense in the which the ancient Primitive Church received them P Dare they not How then say you there is possibility of salvation in the Roman Church for any when it condemneth and accurseth saving faith and justification thereby with other saving truths For if the Papists dare not beleeve but as their Church beleeves then they are bound to good behaviour they dare not beleeve to their salvation And if they dare not beleeve to their salvation then they cannot be saved And if they cannot be saved what possibility of salvation for them living and dying in that faith And here Why do you noâ— say in the sense of the Scriptures themselves and not of the Primitive Church But you doe not like the Scripture sense except the Church interpret it You allow not Scriptures to speake for or testifie for themselves You are the same man still And as we sayd before you doe wisely in that to stoppe the mouth of Scripture as Ahab did Michaiahs for it never speaks good of you but evil alwayes L. p. 232. I will acknowledge every fundamentall point of faith as proveable out of the Canon as we account it as if the Apochryphall were added unto it P. As if Apocryphalls were any divine proofe at all of the fundamentall points of faith in Scripture or ought any way in that respect to be so much as named with the Scripture Apocryphalls saith Ierome may be read for instruction of manners but not for confirmation of faith as before L. p. 336. I have lived and shall God-willing dye in that faith of Christ as it was professed in the ancient Primitive Church and as it is professed in the present Church of England P. As you handle the matter ther 's a vast difference between the faith of Christ professed in the ancient Primitive Church and that which is now professed in the present Church of England For the Ancient Primitive Church taken properly and strictly as somtime in your Booke as before you put it was that wherein the Apostles lived Now will ye be tryed by the Ancient Primitive Church of the Apostles held and professed What say you my Lord for your faith in this case Will you put your faith and Religion to the tryall of the most intire and upright Jâ—ry the Twelve Apostles Certainly if you decline this tryall 't is a shrewd suspicion that the faith of yours wherein you are so resolute to live and dye is not right Therfore for shame of the world you must at least professe or pretend that you wil be tryed by the the Faith and Religion which the Apostles and the true Church of God in their time as being the most Pure Prime Ancient Primitive Church held and professed First then That Primitive Church neither held nor professed nor practised any Hierarchicall government of Prelates or Bishops but have câ—ndemned it in their writings the Scriptures of the New Testament And yet I are say you resolve to live and dye Primate of Canterbury and Metropolitan of all England Secondly The Apostles and the ancient Primitive Church in their Age and time had no Altars but onely the Lord Iesus Christ Heb. 13.10 as it is formerly proved but you and your Church of England both set up and worship Altars and â—each the people both by your Books and practise to do so too and force Ministers to erect Altars or force them out of their Churches And this Faith and Religion also I dare say you resolve to live and dye in Thirdly The Apostles and the anciciâ—nt Primitiâ—e Church in their time celebrated and sanctified every Lords day in holy duties onely and in preaching as well in the afternoon as in the fâ—â—enoon never forbidding but still exhorting to preach in season and out of season giving no liberty to vaine and profane sports and Pastimes either upon
whence I conclude upon your own words that Rome holds not beleeves not the whole Creed and consequently she hath lost and overthrown the whole Creed For overthrowing the sense of any one Articlâ— she overthrows the whole as before And in a word the Church of Rome overthrows the whole Creed in overthrowing the first word of it Credo I beleeve which gives denomination life and beeing to the whole And a maine flaw in the foundation overthrows the whole building And that Rome doth this is cleare for as she hath made a new Creed all of drosse so she hath coyned a new sense to the Credo of the old Creed For she doth not beleeve the Creed with a saving justifying lively faith as is shewed before but hath cancelled and accursed it in her Councel of Trent And so though she hold Credo Deum beleeving that there is a God as even the Heathen doe for quae gens tam barbara c. what nation so barbarous that beleeves not there is a God as the heathen Roman Orator sayd yet she doth not hold any other Creed of God For she holds not simply and absolutely no more then you Credo Deo beleeving God speaking in the Scripture but dependently upon the Authority and Interpretation of the Church And least of all doth she hold Credo in Deum which is the justifying and saving Faith as Augustine Bernard and others of the more Ancients distinguish and define For as Bernard saith Credere in Deum est credendo diligere credendo in eum ire ei uniri c. To beleeve in God is by beleeving to love God by beleeving to goe into him and to be united unto him Now this faith Romes is not for as is shewed before out oâ— the Councel of Trent their faith is without love and doth not goe into God but with which going to hell they are separate from God for evermore So as the Article or Decree of Trent having destroyed the old Credo in Deum she must have some new Credo or els none at all And you doe ibid. rightly interpret the word Vâ—gâ—ès which Athanasius expresseth the â—ustifâ—iâ—g faith of the Creed by namely sound and intire so as if it be not a sound and intire faith such as the Scripture commends and is proper to all true Beleevers the Elect a 〈…〉 is to no purpose And a little after you say 〈…〉 This is true Divinity that he which hopes for salvation 〈…〉 who le Creed and in the right sense too if he be able to 〈…〉 it P. Till this If hem'd in with a Parenthesis I was halfe in hope you had assented to my former speech That the Church of Rome in not holding the right sense of the Creed overthrâ—ws the whâ—le But your Parenthesis so hedgeth in your silly ignorant that it is a sanctuary to secure their ignorance from Râ—mâ—s damnation so as though they have no hope of salvation yet they are in no feare of Romes damnation as being not able to beleeve the whole Creed because not able to comprehend the right sense of it within the narrow circumference of their shallow brainpan But behold closse by another hedge L. p. 343. To hold the Creed inviolate is not as I take itâ— the holding of the true sense but not to offer violence or a forced seâ—se and meaning upon the Creed which every man doth not that yet beleeves it not a true sense For not to beleeve the true sense of the Creed is one thing but 't is quite another to force a wrong sense upon it P. Thus still the Lady and all silly ignorant Papists if ever by their blindnesse they shall happen to stumble upon salvation trusting to the meere simplicity of their ignorance living and dying in the Roman faith not knowing what it is nor able to beleeve any one Article of the Creed in a right sense may thank you for thus incouraging them upon this hope of possibility of an impossible salvation And the case stands thus The Church of Rome in her Councel of Trent hath put a forced sense upon the Creed and so hath made a violation of the faith This forced sense Romes Clergie in the Catechisme of Trent forceth and presseth upon their blind people to beleeve Now tell me What difference is there between the forcing of a false sense upon the Creed which the Councel of Trent hath done and all Romes Clergy conveys the false sense if any at all as â—ank poyson into the minds of their Blindlings so farre as they are capable of any errour being capable of nothing els and the voluntary receiving and imbracing of that false sense and that not onely in beleeving it but so obstinately adhereing to it as they will not they dare not as you befoâ—e confesse beleeve otherwise though the truth be tendered unto him which is the generall condition of all ignorant Papists And being in this case what way now can you find out for them which may bring these misbeleevers or rather no-beleever to salvation What hope can you give them that have no faith And what faith can they have that cannot belâ—eve that cannot may not dare not have no meanes to comprehend the râ—ght sence of the Creed but the forced sense that Rome puts upon it and them L. p. 349. As for Origen I thinke he was the first founder of Purgatory P. This here of Purgatory bordering so neere your last Passage of your misbeleeving Papists gives me occasion to imagine how necessary it were for you to be the first Inventer of some other place in hell like unto that Limbus Infantum where provision may be made to intertaine your silly Infant-Papists that are not able to give any one reason of that hope of salvation which you force upon them and which you have been the first inventer of That as Popish Infants dying without Baptisme goe to their Limbus where they are sensible neither of joy nor paine so your silly ignorants having no sense of any true faith and knowledge of God or of themselves here when they dye they may goe to such a like place or Limbus where they may neither injoy blisse nor suffer paine But a word of Purgatory in the mean time For the first Founder of it in my poore reading I find the Heathen Plato For he tells us as of 3 sorts of men in this world some very good and some starke nought and some indifferent so he fits 3 places for these 3 sorts after this life 1 Elysium the Elysian fields meaning thereby a place of pleasure as Paradise into which went those immediately who were very good 2. Hell whither the very worst went 3. a middle place or lake into which the moderate or indifferent men were cast after death and after a certaine time there as a yeare or two or more as they were lesse or more good or bad being well purged were cast forth againe Whence they went into the Elysian fields
this Relator professeth and teacheth a blind Charity sutable to his Faith which he boldly affirmeth to be not a mistaken Charity in granting that a silly ignorant Papist so living and dying may be Saved by his Ignorance in that Religion conforming himselfe to his Religious life and on the contrary condemning such Protestants of stiffenesse and churlishnesse that are not of the same Charity with him though the Replyer proveth that there is no true Charity without true Faith and Verity And whereas the same Relator is shewed in this Reply to give much more liberty to your Majesties Protestant People to goâ— to the Romish Masse as being with him one and the same undiffering Religion with that of England then the Jesuite doth to his blind Romanist to come to the English Church And whereas the same Relator hath many passages wherein he makes a Generall Councell of Prelates Iudge in all Controversies of Faith ascribing unto them an Infallibility and in case they shall erre and that even in grosse things and points of Faith yet that all men are bound to yeeld obedience at least externall till another Generall Counsell equall to the former reverse those Errours whereupon by Consequence of this Prelaticall doctrine as the Replyer doth instance the Church of England it self is bound to observe the worship of Images and the forbearance of the Cup in the Sacrament c. decreed in Generall Councels and not yet reversed by other Generall Councels equall to those And whereas the Relator calls Transubstantiation Purgatory and the forbearance of the Cup but disputable and Improbable Questions the nature of which is to be taken indifferently Pro and Con And whereas he never once in all his Relation calls the Romish-worship of Images and of the Sacrament or any other Idolatry in all the Romish Church but onely by the name of Superstition abstaining altogether from the name of Idolatry as if with him the Roman Church were no Idolatresse And whereas he much lamenteth the Seperation and rent between the Protestants and Rome with the continuance of it although with the Iesuite he confesse that errour in Faith is just cause of separation And whereas he the same Relator doth cunningly yet palpably enough in sundry passages of his Booke as also he hath openly done viva voce at the High-Commission-Board exclude all the Reformed Protestant Churches beyond the Seaes as no Churches of Christ as not admitting the Hierarchy Finally also in his Book quipping Luther and in him all the Reformed Churches as having made a rent not onely from Rome with her corruptions but even from the Catholick Church it selfe which indeed in the Relators sense and difinition of the Catholicke Church is most true to wit from the universall Hierarchy And whereas he the Relator doth every where highly extoll his Ceremonies in Gods worship as without which he saith there is no light left to shine before men that they may see his Devotion and so glorify GOD therein most foulely and odiously perverting and abusing the holy Text of Scripture uttered by CHRIST to a cleane other purpose as the Replyer hath noted all which Ceremonies being a will-worship after the Tradition and Commandement of men the Apostle doth utterly condemn as wherby the very merits of Christs death are made of none effect who in his death destroyed All Ceremonies in Religion obliging the Conscience and not onely the Leviticâ—ll but all other whatsoever of humane Ordinance as the Replyer clearely proveth So as it is not left to any Power on Earth to impose the least Ceremony yea though it be of nature indifferent to bind the Conscience in the service of GOD seeing all such imposition is Antichristian Tyranny And whereas all Prelaticall Hereticall and Antichristian Faction erected by the Prince of darkenesse against Iesus Christ and his Kingdome as is apparent both by their profession and practice wherein they have nothing at all yea not any one thing to show wherein they resemble either Christ or any one of his Apostles except Iudas Christs Kingdome being altogether spirituall and not of this world but the Hierarchy a meere carnall and worldly Kingdome onely guilded over with the bare name of spirituall And whereas the Relator throughout his whole Booke bewrayeth his most palpable and profound ignorance and notorious blindnesse in the whole mystery of Faith and all true divinity in so much as when ever he Cites Scripture he still perverts it to a wrong sense and is not able to bring any proofe either from Scripture or Common Reason except from some of his Jesuiticall Authors for any of his Paradoxes and strange doctrines delivering all without Book tanquam è Cathedra as but of some Papall unerring Chaire upon the Authority of his bare word and upon meere trust And whereas the Relator saith That worth once misled is of all other the greatest misleader and who of greater worth in the Church of England and in the Esteem of Great ones too then the Great Primate himselfe whose very word with many is taken as a divine Oracle So as if the Church and State of England will but pin their soules upon this Leaders sleeve he will not fayle to lead them in that way the issue whereof seem it never so right in the eyes of credulity will certainly prove to be as Solomon saith the wayes of death And whereas by the Relator sundry occasions are ministred to the Replyer of instancing divers practises charged upon the Prelate as the principall Agent or Instrument of setting up sundry Innovations in Religion in the Church of England all which have been done under his Primacie as The republishing under your Majesties Name the Book for liberty of profane Sports on the Lords day with pressing Ministers to read the Sayd Book in their severall Congregations and upon refusall extreamely persecuting them and thrusting them from their Ministry and meanes with their poore wives and children The authorizing and licencing of some Doctors Books which cry down the Morality of the 4 th Commandement for the Sanctifying of the Lords Sabbath day The setting forth of a New Order to restraine Preachers from Preaching in the Afternoones on the Lords dayes much pressed by the Prelates and their Officers in all their visitations The setting forth of a Declaration in your Majesties Name prefixed to the Articles of Religion which the Prelates practises plainly interpret to be for the restraining and prohibiting altogether the Doctrines of Saving Grace to be preached and wherein the genuine sense of those Articles touching Grace which formerly were universally interpreted to have but one sence agreeable to the Scripture is confounded with the heterodox hereticall doctrines of the Pelagians and Arminians so as none can tell what to make of those Articles saving that by this meanes the Orthodox Ministers must not preach the truth and the Adverse party and Faction may find footing and countenance for their groundlesse and gracelesse heresies and all this to the manifest
for beliefe And you place the Authority of the Present Church in the forefront as a prime leader and inducer to this beliefe And this you inculcate very often and Say pag. 120 I confesse every where that Tradition introduces the knowledge of them And pag. 126. you tell the Jesuite A. C. saying Herein we goe the same way with you because we allow the Tradition of the present Church to be the First inducing Motive c. So as herein you jumpe with the Jesuite So then Authority of the present Church is the Prime Or as sometimes you call it Tradition or otherwhiles The voyce of the Present Church All comes to one reckoning Then to this Leader you muster up a troop of followers as here Ordinary Grace a mind morally induced and reasonably perswaded and before a mans owne Reason and humane Testimony morall perswasion Reason and Force of the present Church the Holy Ghost Conferring of the Scripture with it selfe and other writings And what then Then and not before the Scripture gives greater and higher Reasons of Credibility to it selfe then Tradition alone could give What No more effect for all this but a Credibility I expected you should with such a Troope under the command of such a Generall as the Authority Tradiâ—ion and voyce of the present Church have effected that Rockie Forâ— of mans heart to have yealded to open the Gates of his Infidelity to let in this Beliefe that Scripture is the word of God And can you obtaine no more then a Credibility Alas poore Scripture Can all Mans witty inventions advance thy credit which they have taken away no higher then to a Credibility But thus we may see the vanity of Mans wit when it hath cast away the truth This is right as the Preacher Saith Lâ—e this onely have I found That God made man upright but they have sought out many inventions So when men reject the word of the Lord what wisdome is in them Then they fall to their inventions like Michals stuffing her Image with Goates haire and laying it in the bed instead of David Or a right Embleme hereof we have in our First Parents when they had disrobed themselves of that plain simple seamelesse but glorious robe of their Innocencie having thus lost their uprightnesse wherein God made them presently they fall to their inventions they will supply the want of that robe with a many faire fresh Fig-leaves sowed together without either needle or thread vainly imagining that this would cover their shame when indeed it was a plain signe they had lost their Glory and yet could not hide their nakednesse So when a man hath lost the Truth he shall loose his wits in his manifold Inventions before he shal be able thereby to make up his losse Thus did the Church of Rome of old no sooner had they thrust out Gods word and the preaching of it out of their Temples but up goe their Images for Lay-mens Books and in comes crowding a multitude of Ceremonies the Inventions of man as if these would make amends with advantage instead of the holy Scriptures Just your practise in the Church of England at this day And just your like practise here When you have cast a black veile over the Scriptures native beauty and light disabling them as sufficient witnesses to prove themselves the word of God you invent here a number of things to stop our mouthes to make us beleeve that by these you will bring Mans naturall blindnesse to see and his infidelity to beleeve just nothing at all that the Scriptures are the word of God So as you deale with us here as some Parents doe with their Children take the piece of gold from them and please them with a handfull of deafe nuts Onely they doe it providently to preserve the Gold from being lost but you Popishly to destroy the Gold and to set up the painted dresse of your New-nothing Or you put out the Eyes of the Scripture and then light your Candle before it as after you tell us But let 's a little examine your words First I note here what a blind guide you commend to blind men to lead them to the beliefe of the Scriptures to be the word of God For what is it Certainty No Probabilty A man is probably led But of Probability we have spoken before And take this with you for a certaine truth Probability may beget an opinion but never a belief But by whom probably led By the Authority of the present Church What present Church Of the Prelates or Hierarchy ever But who gave you Authority to be a Church Or Suppose you were the true Church of Christ who gave you this Authority to take away from the Scriptures their sufficiencie of guiding men to the faith of them and to tie men to depend upon the Authority of the present Church thereby to be induced to beleeve the Scriptures And what 's your present Church Is it not the Same with that of Rome And is not this Authority which you arrogate Romish And what if your present Church with Rome shall induce us to beleeve the Apocryphall Bookes to be part of Scripture Or some word unwritten which you call Apostolick Traditions to be equall with the word written as you agree with Bellarmine in this Distinction of the word written and unwritten as before is touched And what if as you have given us too much proofe you should limit us in beleeving the Scripture what part to beleeve for Canonicall and what otherwise For as Hierome saith The Scripture consists more in the marrow of Sentences then in the barke of words more in the Sense then in the Syllables What say you then to the 4 th Commandement which your present Church denyes to be Morall for a Seventh day Sabbath and thereby overthrow the Sanctification of the Lords day What say you of the Doctrines of Grace which you have overthrowne by your Declaration before your Articles What of Altars and the like If herein you overthrow the Sense of Scripture doe you not proclaime to the world that such and such Scriptures are not Canonicall Or if the words be still holden for Canonicall yet it must be according to the Sense of your present Church As Paulus 4. the Pope in the End of the Councel of Trent tyes all Priests by oath to interpret the Scriptures no otherwise but according to the Sense of the Catholick Church the Summe whereof is the Decrees and Canons of Trent Is not thus the whole Scripture made voyd But come on let men be primely induced by the Authority of the present Church to wit of the Prelates or Hierarchy for no other Church you allow nor we you to be any other but of Antichrist by what Argument trow you is it likelyest they will be perswaded that the Scriptures are the word of God Will you give me leave to tell you my Opinion It is this in briefe When men upon
guidance of the Spirit of God determined what was fittest to be done for the present necessity And the determination was that those Christian Gentiles should abstaine from Blood and strangled and Idoll-offerings and Fornications And this Decree lasted no longer then the present occasion required Though to abstaine from Idoll-offering and from Fornication so frequent among the Gentiles is perpetuall according to Gods Morall Law but abstinence from Blood and strangled was a Ceremoniall Law and so was not to outlast that time of the Iews tendernesse For otherwise all the Leviticall Ceremonies were abrogated in Christs death And yet for that time and occasion these abstinences were called Necessary things that is onely in regard of the occasion though to abstanain from Idoll offerings and from Fornication we are for ever and to all necessary But now this example ought not to be drawn into a Rule no not to the true Church of God and to the Ministers of his word or to any humane power to impose what Ceremonies they please upon the Consciences of Gods people This did not the Apostles What they did here was by the Holy Ghosts direction and for the occasion aforesaid And such an evidence can no Generall Councell of Prelates shew us And in a word you that have so prudently taken up that Power for Generall Councels to be Iudges in Controversies of Faith from the example of that Councel of the Apostles Acts 15. doe you truly conforme to the pattern of that Assembly You must understand that that Assembly or Councel consisted not of the Apostles alone but also of the Elders the Presbyters nor onely so but also of the Brethren the beleevers who were also members of that Assembly and who with the Apostles and Elders are mentioned in the Epistle as whose joynt Assent was to the Decree Here was then a Compleat Pattern of a Generall Councel when the Ministers and Brethren the people are the joynt body of the Councel For otherwise how is it a Generall Councel if it consist of the Ministers alone So as that 's a true difinition of a Generall Conucel which consists Generally of the Ministers and People together But you have prudently left out of your Generall Councels not onely the People of God but also his true Ministers the Presbyters these you shut out not onely from your Councel but also from your Catholicke Church as not members of it as they are not indeed So as your Generall Synod or Councel may truly be called how prudently soever you have taken it up as that second Councel of Ephesus was lustrikè a stollen Councel Thus though you Prelates would be thought to be the Apostles successors and propose their example here yet in nothing do you follow them no not in that which you say you have here prudently taken up from their example But your prudence is no other but to make the Apostles states for your tyranny while you Challenge the office of being the sole Iudges in Controversies of Faith and of the Scriptures too which not even the Apostles themselves did ever take upon them though they had the Spirit of Christ which you have not To the Sixth it is answered in the former For Difinitions of your Generall Councels though they be for the matter according to Scripture yet doe they not bind as the Councels Difinitions Gods word in and of it selfe onely bindeth as is said before Nor doe your Generall Councels bind for the manner and forme which is ever false seeing they are not such Councels as the Scripture alloweth And againe neither doe they bind because they are alwayes fallible because never Infallible by your own confession and they are often erronious as you also confesse And therfore as when false they bind not so neither when true are men bound to beleeve them as he that is accustomed to lye is ever suspected although he somtimes tell truth For the Seventh it is as ridiculous as some of its fellows For you say That in things truly determined by the Councel being done In that it cannot erre Which being understood in the most perfect sense of the words is as if a man should say He that tells the truth being told therein he cannot lye But yet things may be said to be truly determined which yet being so determined may be said to be erronious For a thing may be said to be truly Determined quoad externam formam modum determinandi when the externall forme and manner of the Determination is observed And yet quoad materiam ipsam determinata in regard of the matteâ— and thing it selfe determined it may be false and erronious As those 400. Prophets in the case of Ahab did truly consent with one unanimous voyce but yet it was a lye which they truly consented in So a thiefe may be said to be a true man in respect of the substance of a man or truly to live because he liveth yet he is a thiefe and lives a lewd life So your Generall Councel may observe all its accustomed forms and manners of Determining matters by voyces and the like yea and also may do it according to the letter of Scripture as they take and interpret it and yet the thing so determined may be erronious because they mistook and misinterpreted the Scripture So as neither in this speech of yours is there a truth Or doe you meane being rightly after your manner done hath it some vertue ex opere operato not to erre Or do you mean That so being once done for the manner it must not for the matter be questioned but then right or wrong must be obeyed as truth And againe your expression is very improper to say of a thing already done and past It cannot erre Non posse or possibility is properly of a thing not yet done So as you should have said A Generall Councel in the things so and so done hath not erred nor cannot erre But who shall reduce your words to reason or free them from being ridiculous For Perlectum admissi risum â—eneatis amici Can any refrain laughter that reads your words Or from saying They are as a fooles coat made up of sundry pieces and sundry colours For thus they are framed 1. 'T is true that a Generall Councel de post facto after 't is edded and admitted by the whole Church is then Infallible 2. The reason For it cannot erre in that which it hath clearly and truly determined without errour 3. After 't is confirmed 't is admitted by the whole Church 4. Then being found true it is also Infallible that is it deceives no man Is not here Mira verborum complexio as the Orator saith A ridiculous babling Or as the Poet saith is not this Humano Capiti Cervicem sungere equinam to paint a mans head standing upon a Horses neck Would ever any man have spoken thus that had not first bid adieu â—o common Sense Reason Judgement And if the Reader require a
the same honour that you give to the Saints which they represent as divine honour to the Crosse and Crucifix as they teach as we have shewed Is not here a full and home contradiction to the Scripture For Contradiction is not onely in an expresse Negative but in an impiâ—â—â— Negation when such and such a Doctrine doth necessarily imply a contradiction to the Scripture And in this kind all the Doctrines of Popery whereof we have given sundry Instances before are direct contradictions to the truth of the Scriptures L. p. 340. It doth not follow since the Councel of Trent hath added a new Creed that this Roman faith is now the Catholick For it hath added extravea things without the foundation disputable if not false Conclusions to the Faith So that now a man may beleeve the whole and intire Catholicke faith even as St. Athanasiâ—â— requires and yet justy refuse for Drâ—sse a great part of that which is now the Roman faith P. Is it so then Hath the Councel of Trent added a new Creed and so Roman faith is not now the Catholicke but to be refused as drosse extraveous false without the foundation How then doth this agree with that faith which even now you confessed that the Church of Rome had and hath the saving Faith that One Faith of the Apostles as whereby a Papist living and dying in that Faith may be saved And if Rome hath added a new Creed how holds she still that one Faith And do not you beleeve Romes new Creed For what is this Creed That the Roman faith is now the Catholicke How is this then a new Creed That Romes faith is now the Catholicke For say you it hath added extravious things without the foundation Disputable if not false conclusions to the Faith Is this all Parâ—urient Mâ—ntes I expected here some monstrous evidence against the Church of Rome when you began to tell us she had brought forth a new Creed But this your Rumor will not be taken for a Creed without some sounder proofe then we see you yet bring for all your faire florish For what 's this new Creed Alas a poore Cento patcht up of certaine extravious things What without the Foundation Good enough yet so long as nâ— Canon against the Foundation or a mine of Powder to blow up the foundation Onely without the foundation Alas that 's not worth the talking of If the new Creed be of things onely without the foundation you may leave them out of your Creed as things not necessary to be beleeved or at least not to be beleeved of all Christians alike as you teach us before and Bellarmine too that All things de fide are not necessary to be beleeved of all men or are not necessary to salvation And perhaps Bellarmine means Romes new Creed you speak of which though the Councel of Trent hath made it to be de fide yet it is not necessary for every man to beleeve it or not absolutely necessary for every mans salvation But what more 2. Disputable As you sayd before Disputed Quâ—stions Disputed and Disputable still Ergo what can you make oâ— such a Creed at the worst but some disputable matter not yet sufficiently discussed though determined in the Councel of Trent and sit perhaps to be reserved to be determined upon some clearer demonstrations in your next Generall Councel whose Decrees then true or false shall be received as your Creed And as we said before things Disputable may yet prove to be truth being throughly scanned and thus Romes neâ—â— Creed may prove as Credible as you call it disputable But any more yet yes if not false conclusions If Which receiving a faire interpretation from your mouth may be all one as if you had said Nâ—t false Conclusions because as yet Disputable And while things are but disputable and in dispute they are as yet no false Conclusions For the Premisses of the Argument must goe before the Conclusion But yet your Conclusion is somwhat 〈◊〉 For you say A man may beleeve the whole and intire Catholick faith and yet justly refuse for drosse a great part of that which is now the Roman faith What Drosse And Iusâ—ly refuâ—e as Drosse What are you that man that may doe thus And will you doe thus Nay you for your part have bound your hands from taking any thing as drosse which Rome hath put in her new Creed For those things even the worst of them you say are disputable Therfore not yet concluded and determined for Drosse And if you shall now take those things for drosse which with you are but disputable how can you justly doe it For if mettall be in dispute among the râ—siners it is not presently doomed for drosse being yet in their best judgements but disputable the Test must first try it whether it be drosse or not And so it is the Test or the Testaments of Christ that must try all false mettals shine they never so gold like and discover and condemne them for Drosse And surely my Lord your single judgement through never so singular will never be taken by any as solid enough to preponderate the Decrees of a whole Councel as Trent to conclude those Decrees to be Drosse both after you have called them but disputable and after Rome hath Decreed them for her new Creed But you goe no further yet then Posse a man may take them c. And you may in time come actually to take those disputables for no Drosse but good Currant Coine not onely passing for Currant in Rome but also in England as holding the same Creed and being one Church So as a little more Allay then Ordininary shall not disable the currantnesse of it And what is there in all Romes new Creed of Trent which you say is of things Disputable which is any worse drosse but rather as good silver as those her Altars and oâ—her superstitions which you have borrowed of her Which were they but soundly disputed would prove drosse indeed as formerly also is proved Againe here you confine the whole and intire Catholicke faith to Athanasius his Creed You might have at least taken in the other two Creeds to boot and yet not all of them together will make up the adequate Rule of the whole and intire Catholicke faith For the Catholicke faiths full latitude whole and intire cannot be measured but by the line and Rule of Scriâ—ture alone The onely túpos didâ—kus as the Apostle caâ—ls 〈◊〉 the Matrix or Mold wherein faith must be cast 〈◊〉 to receive its perfect forme which is not cannâ—â— be whole and intire but as it is according to the whole and 〈◊〉 Scripture conformed And you adde L. p. 3â—2 No man can properly be said to beleeve the whole Creed that beleeves not the whole sense as well as the letter of it and as intirely P. Now you told us before that Rome hath lost the sense of the Creed at least in some things