Selected quad for the lemma: sense_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
sense_n	believe_v	church_n	faith_n	5,993	5	6.0238	4	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A78132	A defence of the lavvfulnesse of baptizing infants. As also of the present baptisme, as it hath continued in the severall ages of the world, from John Baptist the first beginner thereof. In way of answer to something written by Iohn Spilsberie against the same.	Barbon, Praisegod, 1596?-1679.	1645 (1645)	Wing B749; Thomason E270_12; ESTC R212355	60,304	74

matter and clean out in this first Notion Second Notion And for succession of truth truth of Ordinances you must understand It comes now by the promise of God and faith of his people whom he as aforesaid hath taken out of the world to the fellowship of the Gospel Answ Setting aside succession and in stead thereof putting in continuation What can be more right then this though not in J. S. his sense The truth of Ordinances continues by vertue of Gods promise made to his people they continuing to beleeve in him and not forgetting his name though many times greatly failing against him as of old yet the truth of Ordinances continue namely the Church and Baptisme now as the Church and Circumcision did of old and this by the promise of God J. S. hath no such sense as this but some inward familisticall sense of inward faith and Gods promise to such secret beleevers which he is never able to make out any such thing that the truth of Ordinances depends upon them in regard of continuation by vertee of the promise of God to them in such a secret way Third Notion To whom the Ordinances of Christ stand only by succession of faith What faith outward or inward and not of persons What faith severed from persons Answ I would fain know what any rationall man can make of this either in it self or as it hath relation to what is before declared Fourth Notion For the same power the Apostles had in former time for direction in godlinesse the Scriptures have in the hand of Christ as the head of the Church which make up but one body 1 Cor. 12. 12. Answ such power for direction in godlinesse the Scriptures had of old when the Apostles lived Some other things J. S. aimeth at but the truth prevaileth and the words he here useth will nothing avail namely of the Scriptures in the hand of Christ joyned with the Church It s worth observing how the Church is here couched just after the manner of the Babylonians that pretend their Church is inspired with the Holy Ghost and cannot erre for Christ the head is in Heaven and hath left his Word for direction in godlinesse for his Church to take heed unto Now the holy Apostles had authority to act Ordinances according to Christs command they were to preach pray break bread and baptize the Scriptures were not sent neither act they any thing as before So as in J. S. his sense it is utterly untrue that the Scriptures in the hand of Christ joyned with the body have the same power to act Ordinances as the Apostles had Notion fift and last So as what the Apostles and Church together might do in acting Ordinances you must understand the same may the head and body together with the Scriptures do now Reader observe how J. S. coucheth subtilly his unbaptized Church betwixt Christ and the Scriptures so as Christ being in heaven and the Scriptures only directive the whole matter for action will fall into the hands of the Church A contrivance as fine as the Papist found out when they were sore put to it by John Hus and the Bohemians and not able to defend themselves and their courses against the truth they invented and abetted this That holy Church could not erre Secondly observe how I. S. quitteth two of these three namely the head and body and concludeth laying all the stresse upon the Scriptures and so in effect saith nothing at all the Scriptures being only directive for saith he the Scriptures have the same whereas he should have said the head and body with the Scriptures have it Thirdly observe what a preposterous conjunction I. S. maketh of three in the matter of fact one of which to wit Christ the head is in Heaven who though he hath fulnesse of power acts not here below but in a providenciall and ministeriall way and the like The Church the second Christs wife is in all things to be obedient to Christ her husband his will and pleasure contained in the Scripture the Scriptures they act not but only direct where is I. S. now just where he was at the first and no further Fourthly this is utterly untrue which he concludeth that what the Church and the Apostles the Ministers of the Churches might do that the Scriptures he quitteth the head and body as before may do Now what might not the Church and the Apostles do in ordinances and administration orderly according to God what can the Scriptures act truly nothing at all their authority is only directive I suppose any one may see how far out I. S. is in these conceits In the close he is up again with revelation which happily if he did study and cleave unto would stand him in more stead then the Scriptures that are so helplesse to him in his cause CHAP. IV. Containing a defence of the opinion of them that hold no right or orderly Ministeriall Church without or before Baptisme I. S. Having ended his former matter against the Churches continuance and likewise the continuance of Baptisme under the popish defection proceeds saying And so we come to such as will have no Church before Baptisme and so make Baptisme the form of the Church Answ Who these such are that he intendeth I cannot tell they are either some of his own way or some other some of his own way do indeed so hold that Baptisme constitutes or is the form of the Church Did I think he intended them I should leave them to try it out and should not intermeddle with the strife I shall only as the matter relates to them shew my thoughts briefly namely that they will be too hard for J. S. in the tenent he himself being of their belief but that he is not true to his owne principle otherwise how should he without Schisme and being a Schismatick leave the reformed and separated Churches and set up another of his own as he hath done only he accounteth them no Churches of Christ and what is the reason he doth so nothing but his Baptisme is wanting so as that must be the form that gives being for otherwise They are companies of Saints professing faith in the righteousnesse of Christ and living accordingly that is in holynesse of life This he describeth to be the matter and the form he declareth to be their being united and knit together in one fellowship or orderly body and that is the Covenant of grace by which God becomes not visibly as he unawars saith but in an outward way of relation a God unto them and they become visibly his people Now what is there to hinder J. S. from being a Schismatick by his own ground for surely nothing hinders those Churches which he forsaketh and disclaimeth as no Churches of Christ by all or any thing that in his description of the matter or form of the Church by him set down can be found and let him take in his five Reasons to help him if he

Ordidinance where is J. S. then For truly his collective reason is as much as if a person opposing Circumcision as none of Gods Ordinance because of the Idolatry of the Jews should have reasoned thus If the Israelites be Idolaters and the Calves Idols and no gods and the Priests Priests to them that are no gods then is Circumcision 2 Chro. 13. 9. of the same nature also as are the Calves Priests and Jeroboams whole way of Dan and Bethel And for proof should say as J. S. doth that it was the power of Jeroboams way or of his Calves that carried on the whole form of worship and proceed and the power and Ordainer and the Ordinance ordained must needs be of one stamp if one so then so the other Had not such a way of arguing overthrown Circumcision then aswell as Baptisme now Let J. S. be Judge himself and let him tell me whether he would not have distinguished in the case Againe I will propose another instance in the way of his Argument Thus the Author and thing ordained or made must be of one and the same nature if one be Antichristian the other also for so he hath proved be saith But the Authors namely those that translated the Scripture were according to his opinion Antichristians and there be additions and detractions as in some translations there are Now the thing made or translated must be of the same nature with the Translators that were the Authors and if it were added for proof it was the power of their Antichristian spirits that carried on the whole worke and proceed thereof and so conclude as before both are one and the same If J. S. now would in this stand to his own ground where would he be he would be as far to seek for new Scriptures as they are for Church and Ordinances that hold there neither is nor yet can be any in the World or as he himself was not long since for Baptisme But truly it is much to be pittyed to see such ignorance in men professing knowledge that they cannot distinguish betwixt Gods Ezek. 4. 4. posts and mens when mens are set by Gods That they cannot distinguish between Gods Ordinances and mens inventions and aditions that they cannot put difference betwixt the Arke and Dagon or his Temple in which he being placed fell before the Arke I would 1. Sam. 5. 4. faine know of J. S. when Baptisme that was Christs seased and lost its being and Antichrists Baptisme came in the roome of it sure he cannot tell But I must here tell J. S. that the power of Jesus Christ supports and carries his Ordinances in the midst of the deepest defections that Satan ever hath or could bring upon the same wherein his glorious power doth appear although J. S. would spoile him of it by faining that he is overcome his Church Ordinances destroyed Gods people of old remained his people his Church his Church his Ordinances his Ordinances as particularly Circumcision in the midst of the greatest defilements that ever attended that dispensation In like manner it is so now under al the defilements of Antichrist in particular Baptisme of which is our question as also the Church our Lord Christ his power being no way lessened for the upholding of it nor his faithfulnesse failed for the preservation thereof according to his promise who hath said The gates Mat. 16. of hell shall not prevaile against it It were good for J. S. to study well that place 2 Thes 2. 4. Where Antichrist is foretold sitting in the Temple or Church of God and if he would please but to take notice that there is difference between Gods Temple in which he sitteth and him sitting there as there was betwixt the Arke in the Temple of Dagon in which the Arke was he happily would change his thoughts and be of another minde and so come to have more respective thoughts of the power and faithfulnesse of Jesus Christ then now he seemeth to have Truly I suppose these foolish inferences of J. S. will appear to be but meer fantasies without any ground tending only to deceive the simple for any indifferent Reader will be able to distinguish betwixt Religion and corruption betwixt Ordinances and the evills by way of addition or detraction that attends them Circumcision was of God and it was the hand and power of God that carried it forth in those evill times The Idols Calves and Jeroboams Priests and his whole way as they were of and from another so another hand and power carried them along Even as in like manner Baptisme and other like things being of God are preserved and carried by a hand and power of God whereas that universall Church generall Ministery and government with those other forms of Churches Provinciall Diocesan and proportionall Ministery and Government Ceremonies with additions and detractions innumerable as they are from another fountain so they are carried in another channell and by another power abetted and set on namely by the power of the man of sin the author and inventer of them So far shall suffice in this But saith J. S. praising of himself He hath proved that if one be Antichristian the other is Antichristian By what Scripture he hath proved it none can tell And saith he To dream of any approved Church by the Word of God under the defection and yet a part of the same is for a man to look for a man in the Moon and to suppose a Church to consist in such matter as is destructive to it self and therein to hold a successisn of truth is against the light of nature and a keeping of the Pope upon the Throne of Christ whether he will or no. Answ Is not this high Divinity which I. S. belcheth out of his self-sick stomack against the people and truth of God Is it not a sore and heavy charge but it is well it is but said and not proved Now least any as simple as he that said it should believe it because it is said and that by a person venerable in their way I shall take the pains to examine the respective charges as they are laid down First saith he To dream of an approved Church by the Word of God A. Sure he dreamed himself in what he fathered thus upon his opposites who do not hold an approved Church in such a sense as J. S. seemeth to intend that is a pure and spotlesse Church But they hold according to the Scripture a Church to be really true and Gods though corrupt and greatly defiled I suppose he will not question but that Judah not to speak of Israel was the Church of God in Manasses time and in other times when Idolatry greatly prevailed yet not approved as pure and spotlesse but reproved for corruption and defilement yea and visited with the rods of men Psal 89. 3 2. because of the same that she might be reformed so as to be again approved of her

Word and Spirit dwell yet are not come out of that state according to his sense Now to grant this is more likely to keep up the state of Antichrist and to deny this sure he dare not Let him see how he will avoid his own Argument upon his own ground Surely some have seene this and thereupon have held no faith no grace no Christ till so separated from Babylon Sure he must either renounce his reason or fall under the condemnation of it if he be true to his owne principle In this particular that now I set downe if my judgement faile me not he will never be able to avoid it by granting the Scriptures translated to be the Word of God and usefull in the Church which Babylon hath translated keepeth and holdeth forth and buildeth upon Now for him and others to receive hold and keep the same and to acknowledge them as Gods it must sure be according to his reason a keeping up the state of Antichrist by granting this foundation to his building and this corner-Stone Jesus Christ for of the Scriptures its said and are built upon the foundation of the Prophets and Apostles Christ the chiefe corner Ephes 2. 20. Stone But now in stead of the Word of the Lord for proofe of what he had affirmed in his reason he giveth onely his owne saying to very little purpose surely That Church saith he where Baptisme is the true Ordinance of God as if God had some false Ordinances in the administration of it Observe he hath got the word true to helpe him along that Church saith he by the rules of the Gospel is a true Church what rule or rules he meaneth is hard to guesse he setteth downe no place of Scripture Againe it is observable how he closeth with them he opposeth making the Word and Sacraments infallible marks of the Church yea one of them alone to wit Baptisme And yet he holdeth a Church may be Christs without Baptisme as in his book may be seen He inferreth further and thereby will prove for want of Scripture that if Baptisme be true the Church is true I aske Master I. S. if the Apostate ten tribes were a true Church for it is certaine their Circumcision was true So as here the Reader may see how he maketh the Church and Baptisme such speciall relatives as the one gives being to the other as the father doth to the sonne c. and yet he holdeth an unbaptized Church as we noted before He addeth further That it being the Church of God it is sinne in any not to communicate with her A confident charge but where is the proofe alas it is altogether wanting Communion with a Church is the question to which I shall say a little and leave the Reader to judge First I distinguish of Churches secondly of Communion Churches are either pure and undefiled or otherwise corrupt and in sundry things polluted Communion it is either generall consisting in owning acknowledging and standing for or it is speciall and peculiar in fellowship and worship Now for a Church corrupt and defiled generall communion only can lawfully be extended especially if she be greatly defiled for we may not partake of others sins though we are to own their vertues and good things that are in them and hold relation to them while they 1 Tim. 5. 22. hold the head but with a pure Church we may and ought to extend communion in all the parts of communion But the question being of communion with a corrupt Church I say we are to hold generall communion with the same and to owne it for the relation it hath to Christ so long as it holdeth the head And if particular communion in Ordinance can be extended without partaking in sinne we should not be wanting that way as occasion is offered But though with such a Church in generall and further as we can without sinne yet not with her in sinne we are to keepe our selves pure as before And in this case that is very considerable Revel 18. 4. Come out of her my people that ye partake not of her sinnes So that here I both grant and also deny that which I. S. affirmeth I grant if it be a Church though corrupt yet so long as it hath relation to Christ it is sinne not to owne her and acknowledge her relation I wish I. S. were free from this sinne that condemneth as no Churches of Christ all the Churches of God in the world onely those of his way I pray him to consider of it I also deny what he saith being referred to that speciall communion in ordinance and worship which we are bound no further unto then as we may partake with them without sinne and defilement the seven thousand could not might not ought not to have bowed to Baal or kissed the calves or gone to Gilgal to transgresse Rom. 11. 4. Hosea 13. 2. Hosea 4. 15. Amos 5. 5. nor yet joyne with those Priests made of the lowest of the people yet were they the Church of God and Circumcision and other of Gods Ordinances might be done lawfully of them Yea those of the Church did not sinne in abstaining communion in Judah it selfe in the time of Ahaz and Manasses for as in going to Gilgal so in going to Hierusalem they should have transgressed All which considered I conceive it will appeare to be very fabulous which I. S. affirmeth of Infants Baptisme keeping up the state of Antichrist for indeed the contrary is rather true That the deniall of them right to that holy Ordinance doth rather keepe up that state by the hardning them that otherwise would come out And also by the great confusion like another Babel which this opinion and practice produceth All which I leave to the judgement of the godly wise Reason VI It is unlawfull to baptize Infants for that is to build faith upon humane testimony in matters fundamentall for such as are baptized in infancy have no other way to satisfie themselves or others but the bare word of man that must stand in the place of the Word of God for such their truly receiving so holy an Ordinance of God Answer This Reason is very unlike I. S. he promiseth faire for gravity and wisdome c. but surely such a shallow and unsound Argument was never framed before I suppose it is not his owne but that he hath received it without consideration from some one that he was highly taken withall and being a new thing it pleased him and he set it amongst his reasons why he would not have children baptized that they might be something for number though nothing in substance and weight His scope is easie but his expressions darke and covert I shall goe over them by way of quere First I would faine know what faith he here meaneth whether Historicall or of some other kinde Secondly I would know what he meaneth by building faith upon humane testimonies Thirdly I would know what he meaneth