his full induction of names CONTRADICTION Master Fisher permitted Doctor Featly to dispute about Christ and his Apostles Master Fisher permitted not Doctor Featly to dispute about Christ and his Apostles Master Fisher expresly yeelded that D. Featly should begin with Christ and his Apostles Master Fisher yeelded not that D. Featly should begin with Christ and his Apostles nor dispute about them nor any other point vntill names were giuen in all ages A curious eye might easily discerne many more contradictions in this Answer of Master Fisher but these may suffice to veriâ—ie the truth of that obseruation or to speake more properly that obseruation of the truth to wit that she vsually taketh this reuenge of her aduersaries that they who contradict her in the beginning contradict themselues before the end for truthes are alwaies concords but false-hoods are very often discords euen among themselues Of the third Head 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or idle obseruations and friuolous exceptions Page 13. Any man reading this parcell of the Conference would bee induced to thinke that Doctor White Doctor Featly were summoned on the 〈◊〉 to this Conference And what if he should think so In the same Page The Relator would make 〈◊〉 Reader beleeue that Master Fisher had set the figure of 2. in the middle of the question Grande 〈◊〉 A most horrible falsification to set the figure 2. before the second part of the question You youâ— self at that place set two points there thus â— and added a second whether therfore it could bee no irremissible sinne in the Scribe or rather the Printer to distinguish the parts of the question really and verbally diuers by prefixing the figure 2. to the latter part of it Is not this to fish for Banstikles If you catch no better stuffe in your net by my consent you shall be called no more Master Fisher but Master Minnow-catcher Page 14. The Relator would make men beleeue that Doctor Featly had deliuered the state of the question memoriter And Page 16. Diuers particular points rehearsed by the Protestant Relator which hee Doctor Featly read out of a paper A capitall accusation Is any proposition the truer or Argument the stronger because 't is said by hart or memoriter Piere Daubignie the French Iesuite of your Order thanked God that hee had a singular gift of forgetfulnesse that what hee heard in confession it presently ran out of his memory This gift of forgetfulnes is not now so rare therefore you might haue spared this obseruation howbeit if my memory had been so short and sandy that I was not able to commit a doozen lines or thereabouts to memory if I had intended it they were very much too blame that made choise of mee first at Oxford and afterwards at London to preach the rehearsall Sermons A very vnfit taske for a Piere Daubignie to haue vndertaken Page 35. Master Fisher hearing this slander did rise vp and solemnly protest And Page 36. Master Fisher rising vp with his hand and 〈◊〉 c. And what if hee had protested sitting 〈◊〉 Vnlesse the Relator Master Fisher would intimate that hee is alius stans alius sedens or that the speech hee vttered standing were not so discreet as his other because the Parasite in the Poet saith Plus sapio sedens I haue more wit when I sit Page 63. It no way sorted with the gray 〈◊〉 and grauity of a Doctor and a Deane to haue laughed and fleered so much as Doctor White did c. 〈◊〉 for Doctor Featly both his lookes speeches 〈◊〉 and gestures were such as did not become him 〈◊〉 might better haue beseemed a Stage-player then a Doctor and an Archbishops Chaplaine As if fâ—rsooth none were fit to bee a Deane of a Church or an Arch-bishops Chaplaine but such a one as Crassus sirnamed Agelastus was who neuer laughed but once in all his life and that was at sight of an Asse eating thistles whereupon the prouerbe grew Similes habent labra Lactucas such Lettice such lips Had you set downe in youâ— Relation the true cause of Doctor Whites laughter the Reader though a Crassus would as heartily haue laughed as hee or I did for such ocâ—casions were diuers times offered in the confeâ—rence by you and your Companion that 〈◊〉 of your Romish spleen-bound Catholicks 〈◊〉 now and then a smile at your absurdities If 〈◊〉 had meant to barre all manner of harmlesse 〈…〉 and innocent laughters vpon a sudden occasion giuen you did ill to choose Master Sweet you should haue chosen Master Sowre to haue been your Assistant You your selfe Master Fisher as graue a child as you are Page 34. make the Reader and your selfe very merry with my Buttery book for which you deserue to be sconsed Yet all the punishment I wish you for it and the rest of your friuolous if not ridiculous obseruations and exceptions in your booke is that wherein Domitian is said to haue taken much pleasure to weet to dart a whole after-noone at Flies with a neat and slender iron bodkin Of the fourth Head 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or Impertinences reade Page 18. 19. To that answer of mine you haue a purpose M. Fisher to cauill you know my meaning well enough by the tearm perpetuall to weet That Christian faith which hath continued from Christs first publishing it and shall still continue vntill his second comming You reply If this were said by D. Featly hee should haue considered how hee and D. White cauilled vpon the word Whether and And when they knew M. Fisher 's meaning well enough yea after they had heard him plainely explicate his meaning whereas M. Fisher onely put them in minde to speake properly like Schollers and did not cauill or reply after that D. Featly did explicate his meaning Chius ad Choum Is it all one to expound a tearm to confound two distinct Questions to explicate in what sense a man taketh an ambiguous word and to speake perfect non-sense to speak as ordinary men speak and to speak as no man speakes I called faith eternall in that sense as the Apostle calleth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the eternall-couenant Heb. 13. and as Saint 〈◊〉 calleth the eternall Gospell Apocal. 14. and as Tully prooueth the soules to be eternall in his Tusc. Quest. And will you say that none of these spake properly or like Schollers Yet lest you should happely mistake aeternum for ab aeterno I added to the word eternall perpetuall most plainely to explicate my meaning And therefore your exception at the word eternall thus expounded could be nothing but a meere Cauill which you your selfe perceiuing in your later thoughts you help the matter after your manner with a mentall reseruation otherwise called a lie saying page 18 To this M. Fisher answered first excepting against the word eternall saying Faith is not eternall or ab aeterno Which words ab aeterno were indeed ab externe strangers new thrust into the Conference Neither did
half that you now oppose and suffer me to answer Prooue by Christ and his Apostles or by any of the Fathers for the first 600 yeeres these present Tenets of the Romane Church viz. 1. That all power of order and Iurisdiction in respect of the Churches is to be deriued from the Church of Rome 2. That no Scripture sense or translation thereof is authenticall vnlesse the same were receiued from the Church of Rome 3. That the Romane Church onely was and is the authenticall Custos of vnwritten traditions 4. That all generall Councels were called by the sole authority of the Pope and that hee might ratify and disannuall whatsoeuer pleased him in them 5. That the Pope onely had power to canonize Saints 6. That the Pope had or hath power to depose Princes Prooue all or any of these and we will neither carp nor cauill about names but answer directly without all delayes euasions or tergiuersations M. Fisher. When you Doctor White or Doctor Featly haue prooued your Church to bee visible in all Ages and named visible Protestants then I promise you to prooue the Visibility of the Catholique Romane Church but that is not done by you yet D. Featly It had bin done but for your delayes and tergiuersations Answer briefly and directly to my former argument and I will descend to my Induction and produce the names of such eminent persons as in all Ages haue maintained the substantiall points of faith in which wee differ from your Romane Church That Church whose faith is the Catholique and Primitiue faith once giuen to the Saints without which none can bee saued is so visible that the names of the professors thereof in all Ages may bee shewed and prooued out of good Authors But the Protestant Church is that Church whose faith is the Catholique and Primitiue faith once giuen to the Saints without which none can be saued Therfore the Protestants Church is so visible that the names of the professors thereof may be shewed in all Ages c. The Maior is ex concessis What say you to the Minor M. Fisher. I distinguish the Minor D. Featly Vpon what tearme doe you distinguish M. Fisher. I distinguish of the proposition not of any tearme D. Featly Heere is againe another straine of new Logick to distinguish of a proposition and apply the distinction to no tearme howsoeuer I am glad to heare you distinguish and not simply to deny that the Protestant faith is the Catholique Primitiue faith Mark I beseech you you that are present that M. Fisher demurres vpon the proposition his conscience will not suffer him simply to deny that the Protestant faith is the Catholique Primitiue faith we simply and slatly and in down-right tearmes deny that your present Tridentine faith is the Catholique Primitiue faith M. Fisher. I answered you before that your Minor is false and impertinent D. Featly I have prooued already that it is pertinent what say you to the truth of it M. Fisher. This is to diuert from the question The question is not now Whether our faith or yours bee the Catholique Primitiue faith but the question now is of the effect to wit the Visibility of your Church which you ought to prooue out of good Authors D. Featly May not a man prooue the effect by the cause Is there no other meanes to proue the effect but by naming men and producing Authors for it M. Sweet An effect is posterius the question is about an effect therefore you ought to proue it à posteriori D. Featly What a reason is this May not an effect be proued by his cause Must an effect bee needs proued by an effect or à posteriori because an effect is posterius M. Sweet Leaue these Logick Disputes Bring the names of your Protestants that is it we expect D. Featly If I should relinquish my former argument to which yet you haue giuen no manner of answer you M. Fisher would report that I was non-plussed as you slandered D. White in a former conference who I tell you M. Fisher is able to teach vs both Whereto M. Fisher replied nothing To preuent all such mis-reports to the wrong of either it was mooued by the hearers that it should be written downe by the common Writer of the Conference that both the Disputants beeing willing to proceed D. Featly was desired by the company because it was late to produce the names of such Protestants as were extant before Luther in all Ages This beeing written and subscribed by them both D. Featly proceeded to his Induction D. Featly An induction is a forme of argument in which wee proceed from enumeration of particulars to conclude a generall after this manner It is so in this and this et sic de eaeteris and so in the rest Therefore it is so in all According to this forme of arguing thus I dispute The Protestant Church was so visible that the names of those who taught and beleeued the doctrine thereof may bee produced in the first hundred yeeres and second and third and fourth et sic de caeteris and so in the rest Therefore it was so in all Ages First I name those of the first Age and I begin with Him who is the beginning of all our Lord and Sauiour Iesus Christ blessed for euer at whose name all knees must bow both in heauen earth and vnder the earth at which words all the company on both sides expressed an holy reuerence After Christ I name the twelue Apostles and Saint Paul and because there were few Writers in the first Age at least whose vndoubted works haue comne to our hands I name onely Ignatius after the twelue Apostles and Saint Paul yet not denying but that many others may be named M. Fisher. These are enow for the first Age Christ the twelue Apostles Saint Paul and Ignatitius Heere at the name of Ignatius some of M. Fishers side seemed very glad and confident saying We are sure enough Saint Ignatius is on our side D. Featly I meane not the new Ignatius Loyola but Ignatius the Martyr betweene whom there is more difference in quality then distance in time M. Fisher. Name of all the Ages or else you do nothing D. Featly I cannot name all at once will you haue mee name men of so many Ages with one breath Will you haue mee eat my whole dinner at a bit Can I name twelue seuerally but I must name first one then two then three and so forward I name as I said before in the first Age for our Religion our blessed Lord and Sauiour the Founder of all Religion the twelue Apostles and after them Saint Paul and Ignatius the Martyr For the second Age I name Iustin Martyr Clemens Alexandrinus and Saint Irenaeus and I beginne first with Christ and his Apostles M. Fisher. You shall not beginne with Christ and his Apostles D. Featly You are not to make my Induction I will begin with Christ and his Apostles where I should
suggestions was then so I feare all future Meetings in this kinde will bee stopped by the same Engine The Informers whether they were Popishly or indifferently affected in points of Religion I knowe not sure I am they doo the diuel a great deal of wrong by incroaching vpon his office which is To bee Accusator fratrum As for mine owne part it grieues not mâ— to receiue a wound from them who in due respect to Religion and Calling should haue rather applied a salue But I may truely say in the words of Aria to her dearest Partus Vulnus quod cepi non dolet in quam Sed quòd tu caperes hoc mihi Linde dolet It grieues me that you should suffer any thing for your religious and pious intention to regain your kinsman to our Church and establish your friends in the Truth Yet let not this discourage you in your holy purposes for the good of God's Church Macte virtute As you haue raised Bertram so raise other witnesses of the Truth from the dust and heale those Authors who haue lost peeces of their tongues which the Indices Expurgatorij haue cut off for being too long-tongued against the Church of Rome And though peraduenture you receiue no better reward at least by some than affronts for acknowledgements and rebukes for thanks yet doubt not one day for a full recompence of your paines and charges Trust him for your Aurâ—ola whom you trust for your Crown take his word for the Interest vpon whom wee all rely for the Principal who as he fearfully threatneth that he wil be ashamed of them who deny him before men so he graciously promiseth to all those who confesse him before men that he will confesse them before his Father in Heauen 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 DANIEL FEATLY Touching the Visibility of the CHVRCH The Questions propounded by the Iesuite were 1 WHether the Protestant Church was in all Ages visible 2 Whether visible Protestants are to be named in all Ages c To the first question I answer This question as all other will be best explicated by Distinctions of the tearmes Conclusions or Assertions vpon the distinctions The tearms to be distinguished of are three The subiect A Church The denomination Protestant The attribute Visible Of the tearm Church The first distinction The Church may be considered Either in respect of election inward sanctification Or in respect of outward vocation and profession of the truth In this question wee consider the Church in the latter respect in which alone it is visible for although the elect as they are men and professe the true faith are visible yet men professing the true faith as they are elect and inwardly sanctified and regenerated in their minds are not visible The second distinction A Church professing the Christian faith may be taken either More largely for a company of Professors of the true faith whether they be vnited vnder one gouernment in one Countrey Kingdome or Empire or scattered through the whole world Or more strictly for a company of professors of the true faith hauing actuall communion one with the other vnited vnder one gouernment within certain limits secluded and seuered from other societies and congregations As for example The Reformed Church in France at this day is vnited within it selfe and seuered from the Popish Church and the members thereof among whom yet they liue and ciuilly conuerse In this question wee tie not our selues to prooue a Protestant Church in all Ages in the latter sense It sufficeth that we shew it in the former and prooue that there were alwaies those who maintained the doctrine which wee now teach whether they were vnited or seuered had actuall communion one with another or not kept publique assemblies by themselues apart from the Romane and other Churches or not For as Saint Austen sheweth against the Donatists The same Spirit of God is giuen to all Saints who are knit one to another in charity whether they know one another corporally or not Of the denomination Protestant Distinction the first Protestants may be considered Either according to their name taken from at legall act of protesting either against the Councell of Trent or against the errors and abuses of Poperie when they grewe to their ful measure were most vnsufferable about the time that Luther beganne to oppose the Church of Rome or a little after or from the Protestation of the Bohemians in the yeere of our Lord 1421. set downe by Coclaeus in his L. 5. histor of the Hussits Or according to their faith and doctrine positiuely comprised in confined to scripture and oppositely as it is repugnant to all errors in faith and manners against the holy Scriptures especially against the present errors of the Church of Rome In this question wee consider Protestants in the later sense not in the former The name we confesse of Protestants is not very antient as neither is the name of Papists much lesse of Iesuites but the Doctrine of the Protestants wee maintaine to be as antient as Christ and his Apostles and we may truly say with Ignatius the Martyr 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Iesus Christ is my antiquity As the same piece of gold successiuely passeth thorow diuers stampes and inscriptions so the self-same faith of Protestants in substance hath passed thorow all Ages yet with diuers names as of Becherits Berengarians Petrobrusians Henricians Albingenses Waldenses Dulcinists Lolards Luiddamites Wickleuists Hussites Thaborits Lutherans Hugonots Gospellers and Reformers The faithfull as wee read in the Acts were first called Christians at Antioch yet were they indeed Christians euen from Adam after the promise was giuen that the seed of the woman should break the Serpents head So that although we should grant to Bellarmine that the name of Protestants was not heard of for 1500. yeeres after Christ yet would it not hence follow but that the Protestants faith might bee as antient as Christ and his Apostles yea in a true sense as Adam himselfe sith the Protestant faith is no other then the pure Primitiue Christian faith Distinction the second Protestants in faith and doctrine are of two sorts either Implicitely and vertually and such are all those who holding the Scripture for the sole and entire rule of faith condemn consequently all doctrines of faith against or besides the holy Scriptures especially if they deliuer such positions and doctrines from whence by necessary and infallible consequence some particular error or other of the Romish Church although not perhaps sprung vp in their time may bee refelled Or explicitly and actually and such are they who directly professedly opposed Romish errors as they crept in or not long after especially those who opposed the whole masse of Popish errors and superstitions after they grew to a ripe sore fit to bee lanced about the time of Luther In this question wee restraine not the name Protestants to those who
et fideli profana et perfidâ— facta est Ita quae Apostolis Ecclesiam docentibus erant inandita ea pòst à patribus caepere queri ambigi Quae priscis 〈◊〉 scrupulum mâ—hebaâ—â— ea probabilia visa sunt 〈◊〉 à receâ—ioribus Scholasticis et Canonistis habebanturâ—â—ra Quae illi opinati sunt et tennerunt â—odie 〈◊〉 defendunt pertinaciter et dissentientes 〈◊〉 First Heathenish and then Iewish rites and opinions stole in these were the seedes of ill examples and orders or customes these at the first beeing small were not obserued sometimes they were spied and checked Afterwards by degrees they more and more increased then were they confirmed and spred further till in the end the whole face of Religion was eaten out as it were with a Canker and the Church of Rome 〈◊〉 and faithfull spouse became a profane and disloyall strumpet So those things which in the Apostles time were vnheard of after beganne to bee questioned and doubted by the Fathers Those things which the anâ—ient Doctors made scruple of seemed probable to some and were held true by the later School-men Canonists Those things which they held but as opinions the Papists at this day defend obstinately and condemne all that dissent from them Iust as Velleius Paterculus reports of the Romane State that degenerating from the antient vertue and glory it fell maturè à rectis in vitia à vitijs in prana prâ—uis in praecipitia from good to bad from bad to worse from worse to worst of all so the Roman Church in tract of time fell from certain truths to doubtfull Tenets from doubtfull Tenets 〈◊〉 manifest errors from manifest errors at last to heresies where we now finde them and there leaue them because they are resolued there to stick The generall Conclusion The Protestant Church according to the distinctions and Assertions premised hath beene in all Ages in some degree visible Thus much of the first Question propounded by the Iesuite touching the Visibility of the Protestant Church in all Ages The second Question touching the Catalogue of names follows Touching the Names of visible Protestants in all Ages The second Question WHether visible Protestants are to bee named in all Ages out of good Authors To this Question I answer as to the former by Distinctions Assertions The first Distinction Visible Protestants are either Such as subscribe to the harmony of Protestant Confessions in each point of faith and Theologicall Conclusion Or such as haue deliuered either implicitly or explicitly 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 positiuely or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 by way of opposition some point or points of Protestant Doctrine especially if it cannot be proued that they held any doctrine de fide repugnant to the Protestants faith or different from them in any point of moment or very materiall much lesse fundamentall In this Question neither is it reasonable neither indeed doth the Iesuite demand that wee should prooue visible Protestants in all Ages in the first sense but in the later onely His words are For auoiding of all mis-taking and consequently needlesse and fruitlesse Disputes M. Fisher in his Question requireth first that names of men in all Ages be set down whom Sir Humphrey Linde and his friends conceiue to haue been Protestants Secondly that those men whose names they set downe bee shewed out of good Authors to agree in houlding some points of faith in which Protestants differ from Roman Catholiques Thirdly that Sir Humphrey Linde or his friends will defend against M. Fisher that the same men held no other points of faith different one from another and from the present Protestant Doctrine The second Distinction The Names of Protestants are of two sorts Proper as Bertram Lollard Dulcinus Caluin Beza Iewell c. Appellatiue as Protestants Gospellers Reformers Albingenses Waldenses Lionists Piccards Turlepins and generally all such names as haue either been assumed by any society of Protestants to distinguish themselues from others or cast vpon them by way of reproach by their Aduersaries whose reproaches they and wee accounted their glory In this Question although the Iesuite seemeth to take Names in the first sense yet he cannot be so grossely ignorant as not to knowe that it is aboundantly sufficient for the proof of a visible Church euen à posteriori to proue out of good Authors the appellatiue Names of Protestants in all Ages No man doubteth that it is a sufficient Argument to prooue the Visibility of the true Church in Israel in Elias time to produce that sacred Record of seuen thousand that neuer bowed their knees to Baal albeit neither doth the Spirit of God there set down neither can any man liuing now tell what was the proper name of any one of them No Geographer will euer make question but that there are now many visible Churches of Christians in Africa and diuerse parts of Asia vnder the Turk and Tartar knowne by the names of Abyssens Maronits Cophti Armenians Georgians or the like and yet neither can the Geographers themselues peraduenture nor you nor I presently giue the proper name of any one of them For my part I know but one Greek Christian sometime Student in Oxford Metrophanes Critopulus The third Distinction These words Protestants are to be named may admit of a double construction Either that names ought to be produced and that we are bound to produce them to proue the Visibility of our Church as if without such producing the protestant cause shold any way suffer or receiue any prejudice Or that such names may bee produced and that there are such Records yet extant out of which wee are able to makes a Catalogue of Protestant professors In this question the Iesuite holdeth that the names of Protestants in the first sense are to bee produced that is ought to bee produced and must of necessitie to proue the visibility of our Church but hee denieth it in the second sense that is that such names can bee produced On the contrary my Tenets are that Visible Protestants are to bee named in the second sense that is are â—minable but not in the first sense Though wee need not make any such Catalogue yet ex superabundanti I refuse not to doe it our cause is so richly furnished that wee can do it though wee are not bound to do it for the reasons partly alledged in the conference partly confirmed and enlarged in the defence thereof The fourth Distnction Good Authors are of two sorts Of the first rank and such are Classicke Theological or Historical Authors against which neither Papists nor Protestants much except but both account them of great worth and credit Of the second ranke and such are those Authors who though they are not of any singular or eminent note yet they may bee tearmed good according to the ages in which they liued which afforded no better In this question I restrain not good Authors to those of the first rank only but admit also of those
therefore you doo well and wisely heer not to lay these blocks for your blinde children to stumble at which neither you nor all the Iesuits in Christendome are able to remoue The Protestant Relation Paragraph the fift concerning the parts of the Question D. Featly There are two Quaeres in your Question First Whether the Protestant Church were in all Ages visible and secondly Whether the Names of visible Protestants in all Ages can be shewed c. M. Fisher. There are not two Quaeres or parts in the Question it is but one Question D. White Where there are two Propositions with two distinct Vtrums there are two Questions c. M. Fisher. Conclude any thing syllogistically D. Featly D. Featly And is a Coniunction copulatiue and must adde somewhat to That that goes before It is all one as if you should expound the words of the Apostle Prouide honest things before God and men before God that is before men Master FISHER'S Answer My Question is meant to be but one entire Question And so to cut off all needlesse wrangling made by D. White and D. Featly about the Aduerb Vtrùm whether and the Copulatiue et and as if Grammar-scholars had been disputing rather than graue Diuines who were not to stand on rigour of Grammar especially in this case where the sense of the speaker is plaine and may well stand with Grammar Master Fisher said The question being mine it pertaineth to mee to tell the meaning and my meaning was onely to make is one question viz. Whether the Protestant Church were so visible as the Names of visible Protestants in all Ages may bee shewed out of good Authors Wherefore if you will dispute you must dispute in my sense and must conclude the affirmatiue viz. The Protestant Church was so visible as the Names of the professors in all Ages may bee shewed out of good Authors Doctor FEATLY'S Reply First the parts of your question are distinguished really for a Protestant Church may haue beene visible in many Ages and yet not the names of visible Protestants liuing in those Ages now to bee produced as your selfe confesseth in effect page 33. line 23. Wee doe not require that all visible mens names should bee vpon record nor all records produced Secondly they are distinguished formally in words whether the protestant Church c. And whether the Names c. Thirdly they are distinguished by points for in the middle of your question before the second part of it you your selfe put a colon thus Fourthly you distinguish them your selfe in your answer in the written copie which I haue for to the first part you answer in the margent It was not which answer was not nor can bee applied to the latter part Either the parts of your question are distinct in sense or out of question you propound them senslesly whether and whether two whethers meaning but one Admit the construction you giue of the first part viz. Whether a Protestant Church were visible in all Ages that is so visible as the Names of visible Protestants may bee shewed what construction then will you make of the latter clause whether the Names may be shewed Is not this iust like Battus his spell in the Latin Poet Subillis Montibus inquit erant et erant sub montibus illis Or the like of the French Car comâ— ' vn ' Aigle mountant an clair soleil Car c'estoite vn ' Aigle mountant an clair soleil It is as if I should propound such a question Whether Iesuites be so honest men that they will not equiuocate and whether they will not equiuocate Or whether the letters in a small print are so visible that they may bee read and whether they may bee read Or whether the parts of this question are so distinguished that they are not altogether confounded and whether they are not altogether confounded But you say I am bound to dispute in your sense What sense mean you The sense that is to be made of your words or the sense which you make by your mental reseruation It seemeth you are so vsed to your Iesuitical Cabala that you cannot in your disputing but smacke of it I am bound to dispute with you you say in your sense I grant you am I therfore to dispute with you in your non-sence But you say that it is for Grammar Scholars to argue about the Aduerb Vtrum and the copulatiue et and. Tell your great Clark Cardinall Bellarmine so who wier-drawes your Sacrifice of the Masse out of the Copulatiue et and And he was a Priest of the most high God c. and your Transubstantiation out of the Pronoune hoc Hoc est Corpus c. your Popes supremacie out of the Pronoune tibi Dico tibi Petre c. Doth not Saint Austen presse Grammaticall Arguments against Cresconius the Grammarian Nay doth not Saint Paul himselfe presse a Grammaticall argument Against the Iewes Non ex seminibus sed ex semine Not of seedes as of many but of thy seed as of one How many ancient and later Diuines whose bookes you are not worthy to carry after them haue substaÌ„tially proued the Trinity by a Grammatical Argument drawne froÌ„ the Plural Number Faciamus Let vs make man yea the Trinitie in vnity by an Argument founded vpon the construction of a Verbe Singular with a Nowne Plurall Elohim that is Dij creaâ—it It is no disparagement Master Fisher for the greatest Clarke to remember his Grammar But he who so farre forgets his Grammar as you doe deserueth to be turned back to the Grammar Schoole and to haue his Garmmar-Rules better imprinted into him with a Schoole-Masters Ferula or somewhat else Yea but Aquila non capit Muse aâ— you are a high flyer and therefore scorne to strike at a Flie Yet take heed of such Flies lest you bee choked with one of them as your Pope Adrian was Such dead Flies as you heere swallow are able to corrupt and spill a whole boxe of the sweetest Oyntment The Protestant Relation Paragraph the sixt touching the pretended necessitie of naming Protestants in all Ages Master Sweet What need you stand so much vpon this If there were visible men certainely they may be named name your visible Protestants and it sufficeth Name visible Protestants in all Ages D. Featly It seemes you are nominals rather then reals you stand so much vpon naming will you vndertake to name visible Papists in all Ages If neither you nor wee can name visible professors of our Religions in all Ages for ought I know the best way for vs is to be all naturall men D. Featly This is the right reason of a Naturall M. Sweet If there were visible Protestants in all Ages certainely they may bee named D. Featly That is a non sequitur for the reasons before named by me What say you to a people of Africa who if we may beleeue Pliny haue no names at all M. Boulton Yet they haue descriptions and
all Churches were ouerwhelmed with more then Cymerian darknes and Perkins that An vniuersall Apostasie ouerspred the whole face of the earth and Iewell that Luther Zuinglius were most excellent men sent from God to giue light to the whole world their meaning is not that there was no light in those times in Goshen or that there were no Abdiases with many other Prophets lying in secret or that there were not many thousands that neuer bowed the knee to the Romish Baal for they all affirme the contrary in sundry places of their writings But they take the word World as it is vsually taken both in sacred prophane Writers for the greater part of the world or at least that part that beareth the greatest sway and is in a manner onely in voage Their words sound according to the Tenor of those in S. Iohn The whole world is set on wickednesse and the like in S. Ierome Totus mundus ingemuit se factum Arrianum the whole world sighed that it became Arrian As Luther so Caluin also acknowledgeth that Christ hath alwaies had his floore on earth sometimes more sometimes lesse purged And further they deny not but that before the publick and generall purging of the floore of the visible Church from the chaffe of Romish superstitions in our daies there were many that in sundry corners of the earth seuered diuers heaps of wheat from the chaffe and clensed it from darnell tares Among whom were Fratres Pigardi a remainder of the Waldenses betweene whom and Caluin many kinde offices passed as their mutuall Letters testifie extant in Caluins works Thus one of the Preachers of the Waldenses writes to Caluin Reuerend in the Lord because aboue 30 yeeres agoe when you remained at Argentine there was an holy league of loue and entire friendship and familiarity betweene you and the brethren who are falsely termed Pigards or Waldenses our dearest Fathers in the Lord Wee who now hold the place of those our Fathers whom God hath called almost all of them out of this mortall life thought fit to renew that knowledge or rather band of Christian loue wherewith all the seruants of God especially the Ministers of the Gospell ought to be most strictly and firmely knit together To the former letter Caluin returnes this courteous answer Epist. 251. Wee render you more then ordinary thankes for sending the brethren vnto vs who may remaine as witnesses and pledges of your loue towards vs and brotherly coniunction which kind office of yours wee the more willingly embrace because it flowed from a sincere loue of true Religion Wee desire that you will be likewise perswaded of the like affection in vs towards you and the great desire we haue to cherish this holy vnity among vs. For being so farre remooued one from another and compassed round about with enemies who take vp the greater part of the world it is a great delight vnto vs to enioy yet this comfort of our dispersion c. Againe the same Caluin in his Epistles Epist. 179. to Stanist Carninsk thus writeth of the Waldenses I hope the best of your agreement with the Waldenses not onely because God alwaies vseth to blesse the holy vnity in which the members of Christ grow vp together but also because in these your rudiments and beginnings I conceiue that the skill and long experience of the Waldenses will bee an extraordinary help vnto you wherefore all of you must doe the vttermost of your endeuours that this holy agreement consent betweene you may more and more be established c. Martin Bucer whom you alleage in the next place held the like correspondence with the Waldenses as may be gathered from that Letter of his which hee wrote vnto them Blessed be the Lord God our louing Father who hath preserued you to this present time in so great knowledge of his truth and who hath now inspired you in the search thereof hauing made you capable and fit to doe it Behold now what the nature of true faith is which is that so soone as it knowes in part any spark of the diuine light it preserueth carefully the things that are giuen vnto it of God Saint Paul is an example to vs who in all his epistles shewes the great care that he hath had to procure the glory of God And doubtlesse if wee pray with a good heart that the name of God be sanctified and his Kingdome may come we shall prosecute nothing with such diligence as the establishment of the truth where it is not and the aduancement thereof where it is already planted One onely thing doth especially grieue mee that our imployments at this time are such about other affaires that wee haue no leasure to answer you at large as we desire c. By the contents of this Letter and many other passages in Bucers Works which for breuities sake I omit it appeares that Bucer in calling Luther the first Apostle of the reformed Doctrine did not thereby intend that Luther was the first that euer preached the Doctrine of the reformed Churches for hee could not bee ignorant that after Christ and his Apostles and the Fathers for 6 or 700 yeers Bertram Elfrick Berengarius and Petrus Brus and Henry of Tolous and Dulcinus and Arnoldus and Lollardus and Wicklef and Hus and Ierome of Prague and many other Starres fought in their courses against the Romish Sisera But Bucers meaning is that Luther was the first who in our Age and memory publikely and success-fully set on foot a generall Reformation of the Church in these Westerne parts when the corrupt matter of Popish errors and superstitions long in gathering grew now to a ripe coare Luther was the first who openly lanced it Luther formed no new Church but reformed the Church hee found and therefore cannot bee termed The first Apostle of Protestant Doctrine although in a tolerable sense hee may be stiled The first Apostle of the happie Reformation in our daies Luther burnisht and refined the gold of the Sanctuary obscured with rust he made not new gold In your allegation out of Beza by suppressing the Aduerb penè almost you shew your selfe non penè not almost sed penitùs altogether a falsificator Beza's words Epist. 5. are Huic tum demum locum esse dicimus cùm vel nulla vel penè nulla est ordinaria vocatio sicut nostris temporibus accidit in Papatu We say that then extraordinary calling takes place when there is either no or almost no ordinary vocation of Pastors as in our time fell out in the Papacie This almost you omit altogether For Beza's opinion touching extraordinary calling as I doe not heere oppugne so much lesse doe I vndertake to maintaine We can and haue prooued lawfull ordinary calling in our Church of England as you may see in M. Masons most accomplished Treatise of this Subject lately reuised by him before his death and translated into Latine at this instant