out question is of the Church visible More then so God may require vs to come out of Babylon even vs that are not there for such a commaund is no more but to prevent our going thither forasmuch as the same person that is furthest from Babylon in this present estate is there even there already in possibility because the holiest man that liveth liveth in the flesh or humane nature and therfore may he be carried to Babylon because Babylon is heresie or at least includes it and herefie is a fruit of the flesh By this time I hope his whole discourse as well â—hat is to the purpose as what is beside the purpose is fully cleered and satisfied wherein â—hine departed from the liberty of an answerer of loue and desire to satisfie the Reader CHAP. 10. Our Opponent B. his second Argument HE vrgeth vs cap. 9. pag. 37. with a second Argument concluding after this manner That Society which wanteth the nature of a true Church denyes fundamentall truth directly not by consequence But the present Romish Church does not deny fundamentall truth directly but by consequence at the most for the Popes Arithmetick which he vseth in calculating the Articles of faith is not subrstaction but addition Therefore the present Romish Church wanteth not the nature of a true Church The Assumption and conclusion is set downe pag 41. and the title of the Chapter pag 37. The Proposition is wanting In pag. 21 22. he writeth thus Our adversaries in this cause doe bring the deniall of the foundation of faith as a medium to proue the Church of Rome to be no true Church I answere this man hath a faire gift of inventing some while he can finde an adversary that answers another while one that disputes and all is no more but his owne shadow or imagination If he would haue the Reader to thinke otherwise let him name the Authour that thus disputes and the place where we may finde it till then this must goe for false None of ours would dispute so for it presumes that some Articles of faith be fundamentall and some be not and that is false the whole divine revelation conduceth to eternall life and accordingly it is the foundation thereof and consoquently every Article of faith is fundamentall I answere further This reason as it lyeth doth admit many egregious exceptions but because I am willing to interpret him with the vttermost favour I will forbeare to charge him with them He confines fundamentall trueth vnto the being of the Scriptures and Christs comming to saue sinners pag. 19. 20. To deny fundamentall trueth according to him directly is directly to deny that Iesus Christ came into the world to saue sinners as Pagans Turkes and Iewes doe pag. 22. They deny it by consequent which holding it directly maintaine any one assertion whatsoever whereupon the direct deniall thereof may be necessarily concluded Thus the Galatians holding Circumcision did by consequence overthrow salvation by Christ inasmuch as it was impossible that they should stand together pag. 23 24. According vnto this explication this Argument will be freest from exception if it bee framed in these termes CHAP. 11. Of the same Argument new framed THat society which wants the nature of a true Church does in words and professedly deny the Scriptures and Christs comming to saue sinners But the present Romish Church does not in words and professedly deny the Scriptures and Christs comming to saue sinners Therefore the present Romish Church wants not the nature of a true Church His proofes for this Assumption are two the one pag. 126. in these words Offer the fundamentall words to them of the Romish Church and none amongst them will refuse to subscribe vnto them The other is his fifth Argument pag. 59. c To proue the maine question so desirous he is to make shewes of plenty that one shall be divided into two rather then he will be short in number In that he writeth thus In our disputations with them we doe not proue that Christ came to saue sinners but we bring it in proofe against them pag. 62. And this sayes he is A tacite consent of all ours that the Church of Rome does not directly deny the foundation pag. 61. In pag 70. he writeth thus I would gladly see the testimony of but one in estimation for his learning amongst vs that ever affirmed the Church of Rome to deny the foundation of Faith directly The Church of England hath not passed any such sentence vpon her Some of ours touching this matter haue written thus The Church of Rome denyeth Christ Iesus directly not by consequence onely At this our Opponent B. pag. 122. growes very angry and craues pardon for breaking his long patience and doth challenge him for an egregious contradiction in avouching a deniall direct and by consequence and why Because The foundation cannot be overthrowne both by consequence and directly too None can overthrow by consequence vnlesse they hold directly and no man can both hold directly and deny directly And in conclusion he does grauely reprehend that Author because he labour to proue that the Church of Rome is guilty of such deniall both directly and by consequence seeing such proofe makes the whole fall to the ground being nothing worth and least something should be wanting pertaining to the honour of a learned Disputer he giues his word for all this esteeming the least proofe his great disgrace I answere If I proue that the Church of Rome directly denies the being of the Scriptures and the comming of Christ to saue sinners I doe enough to satisfie this Argument even by the confession of this Opponent for pag. 124. he writes thus If you can proue the Church of Rome directly to deny salvation by Christ alone we binde our selves to grant you the victory and yours be the day If I proue the Church of Rome by consequence also so to deny then that Authour hath made no contradiction by this Opponents owne rule namely because both of them may be true together This Opponent demandeth how or where that proofe shall be had and made pag. 124. I answere I will haue that proofe out of the Councel of Trent and frame it according to art and the rules of answering for that is my office at this time Touching the first I answere to deny and affirme is made by voice and accordingly to deny and affirme may be by the voice of humane reason or divine faith This I take as granted else there can be no difference between the Heathen Philosophers Turks and Christians when they all professe even in so many words That there is a God In the first sense I grant the Assumption that is The Romish Church professeth even in so many words the being of the Scriptures and the comming of Christ by the voice of humane reason and so farre we are content to goe along with this Opponent but the Proposition is false This we say The profession of
the Scriptures vnto the Churches Iudgement they would haue vs beleeue that the Church must tell vs which be the Scriptures and which be not else we can haue no divine faith of them for reason tells vs they must haue authority in all points of faith or none at all This decree of the Councel thus vnderstood is followed by all their Divines and Suarez giues it vs in this one sentence A generall Councell in which the Pope is present either in his owne person or by his Legats and confirmed by the Pope is an infallible rule of Faith And this is a matter of Faith De Fide c. Tracta 1. Disp 5. Sect. 7. No. 6. 9. Bellarmine delivereth the selfe same matter in a most ample large manner in divers places in his third booke of Gods word and I will report them in order as they stand and thus he begins Cap. 3. Tota igitur The Church that is the Pope with his Councell of other Pastors is the Iudge of the true sense of the Scriptures in which all Catholikes agree and the Councell of Trent hath it expresly Sess 4. It is committed singularly to Peter and his Successours that they should teach all men what is to be held concerning the doctrine of Faith Cap. 5. Ex his c. The Councels and Popes execute the office of a Iudge committed to them by God a Iudge delivereth his sentence as a thing that necessarily must be followed Cap. 10. Respond aliud est Christians are bound to receiue the doctrine of the Church when it setteth forth the matters of faith and not to doubt whether those things be so or not Cap. 10. sept argumentum Hitherto he setteth forth the matter in grosse and not vnfoulded wherefore we must seeke for that also and we shall finde the same in the said 10. Chapter and first he giveth vs a reason why the Church should haue this office committed to her in these words The Scripture for it selfe needs not the witnesse of men for it is most true in it selfe whether it be vnderstood or not but for our sake it needs the witnesse of the Church because otherwise we are not certaine what bookes are sacred and divine or what is the true and proper meaning Cap. 10. Respondeo Christus Hitherto wee finde these authors concurring with the Councell in the sense aforesaid and thereby our Assumption at num 7. is confirmed wherein we say Their Church that is the Pastors of their Church hath an office to determine which is the true faith that is what is revealed and what is not revealed and we must know that their judgement is not a private opinion but the faith of their Church Suarez saith so expresly in the place alledged and the thing it selfe doth say no lesse of them both for they agree with the Councell and all on their side agree with them none of theirs doe deny what they affirme If any man think not so he must shew the contrary which yet I never found Wherefore we need not doubt of the conclusion wherein we maintaine That their Church is the foundation of their faith being the thing we vndertooke to prooue num 7. Though this be enough to manifest the matter yet I will adde some other proofe from the testimony of their Church to iustifie the same conclusion because I would haue the thing made easie to our vnderstanding as well as proved to be true by force of argument Now Bellarmine doth all this in most plaine and evident manner in the place following The word of God delivered by the Prophets and Apostles is the first foundation of our faith for therefore we beleeve whatsoever we beleeue because God hath revealed it by his Prophets and Apostles but wee adde that besides this first foundation there is another secondary foundation needfull to wit the testimony of the Church for we know not certainly what God hath revealed but by the testimony of the Church Therefore our faith cleaveth to Christ the first truth revealing those mysteries as to the first foundation It cleaves also to Peter that is to the Pope propounding and expounding these mysteries as to a second foundation Cap. 10. Respondeo ad hoc If any man desire to see this precept manifested by practise he does that also after this sort Wee are to know that a Proposition or Article of faith is concluded in such a Syllogisme as this Whatsoever God hath revealed is true But this God hath revealed Therefore this is true Of the first of these Propositions no man makes any question The second is held for certaine truth amongst all Catholiks for it is grounded vpon the testrmony of the Church Cap. 10. Respondeo verbum To conclude I will report another testimony of his whereby the whole frame of this building is brought to perfection and for that end thus he writeth A precept of faith is to be prooued foure wayes 1. By expresse testimony of Scripture with a declaration of the Church 2. By euident deduction out of expresse Scripture with a declaration of the Church being added thereunto 3. Out of Gods word not written by the Apostles but deliuered from hand to hand 4. By eutdent deduction out of the word of God deliuered from hand to hand De Purga lib. 1. cap. 15. Haec sive Neither is this doctrine Bellarmines fancy but it is the Romish faith for it is warranted by the testimony of all the learned in that Church and the Decree of the Trent Councell already recited n. 8. for when it giues the Church the office to Iudge of the sense of the Scriptures it grants that the Scriptures are in being already and therefore that they are the revealers of the Sacred verities and consequently the first foundation of our faith When it subiecteth the sense onely of the Scriptures to the iudgement of the Church it giues the Church authority to propound expound and apply the Scriptures and therefore it makes the Church a second foundation and no more By this time I hope it is evident enough that the authority of the Church is the foundation that is the next and formall reason of their faith and beleeving and that is the thing wee seeke for Now we should prooue that this foundation of their Faith is false and erronious for that is the second thing propounded in this chapter num 7. But I will spare that labour at this time because none of ours as I conceiue will call it into question besides if any do Mr. Wotton in the book recited even now hath made it manifest against all opposers pag. 21. num 5. c. If therefore any man desires to see it I referre him thither because it fitteth not this businesse to transcribe it And thus much may suffice in proofe of our Assumption propounded cap. 3. num 1. CHAP. 5. Defendeth this sentence The Romish faith is erronius BOth our opponents are mightily gravelled with this sentence and all such as hold
but stained the faith of Christ with reproaches creatures with the Lords honour Gods service with Idolatry Doct. Whitakers in his second controversie of the Church q. 6. cap. 1. adiudgeth the present Romish Church to be nothing else but a deepe pit of heresie and errour and thereby argueth her no wayes to be or to belong vnto the true Church Mr. Perkins in the Preface to his Reformed Catholike saith The whole Religion of the present Romish Church is hereticall and schismaticall and the cup of abomination in the Whores hand Revel 17.4 And Doctor Abbot Bishop of Salisbury in his defence of this place in Mr. Perkins doth iustifie and avow the same thing against bishop the Papist Bishop Careton in his directions to know the true Church prooues at large that the present Romish Church holas not vnitie with the true Church neither in the head nor in the body nor in the spirit nor in the faith If that be true she is all errour her faith is erronious Now I haue proved our Assumption against his exception thereto by the authority of our Church and a cloud of her most learned and renowned children I will make the same good by the testimony of God himselfe But I am prevented in that by Mr. Wotton who hath done it already in his booke called Runne from Rome where he beginnes this poynt pag 14. num 4. whereunto I might refer the Reader as vnto a most pious learned author a worke that admitteth not any reall essentiall or substantiall addition but I will make bold to take out of him so much as belongs to this cause not word for word but so much as will be sutable to the buisinesse First I will set downe how he vnfoldeth the terme and then come to his proofes of the question The word Faith importeth a singular thing vndevided into either members or kindes with warrant from the Apostle who speakes so of it Eph. 4.5 There is one faith saith he one Baptisme one Mediator between God and man 1 Tim. 2.5 In what manner the Mediator is one and Baptisme is one so Faith is once for one phrase of speech is common to them all but they are one without division into members or kinds therefore so is faith The thing it selfe sayes no lesse for this word Faith importeth a coÌ„prehension of many sentences made one body by a common band namely the divine authority For in every article a part and in all of them together we find the same authority which draweth vs to consent to them as true and accordingly the beleefe of one is the beleefe of all the deniall of one the deniall of all Every Engular sentence pronounced by the Church of Rome as a thing revealed by God is in this question the Romish faith An Article of faith is then erronious when it agrees not with the sacred Revelation and this wee say with warrant from the Councell of Trent Sess 14. cap 8. of the necessitie of Satisfaction And afterwards in the Decree touching the Sacrament of pennance Canon 6. And the thing it selfe doth avowe the same for the varying from the rule is the very nature of error therefore every article of faith must needs be erronious that agrees not with Gods word because that word is the rule thereof By it our faith was revealed vnto vs and by the recorde thereof it is reserved for vs. And so much for Mr. Wottons explication We haue his proofe pag 15. nu 6. thus set forth That faith which hath a faâ—se and erronious foundation is false and erronions But the foundation of the Romish saith is false and erronious Therefore the Romish faith is false and erronious In the Proposition two things are taken as granted viz. 1 Faith hath a foundation without it 2 Different foundations causeth different faithes Both of them are cleere and evident therefore they stand not in need of my proofe if the termes be opened they will be out of question By foundation wee meane the next and formall reason why we assent to this or that proposition in Divinity that is why we iudge this predicate to bee truly and rightly attributed to that subiect now this is without the Article it selfe because it is no more but the authority of him that pronounceth the sentence In the second sentence we meane to say Every distinct faith followes the next and formall reason of our beleeving as when wee beleeue this or that report to be true vpon the authority of him that reports it this is humane saith because it followes humane authority and accordingly the faith of Turks and Heathens is accompted humane because the next reason of their beleeving is mans authority accordingly that is Divine faith when we esteeme this or that sentence to be true because God hath pronounced it And thus haue we cleered the Proposition Mr. Wotton prooues the Assumption by these two sentences 1. The foundation of their faith is the authority of the Pastors of their Church No. 7. 2. This foundation of faith is false and erronious No. 10. And this proofe is manifest and without exception if both these sentences be true But they are true he prooues the first num 8. by this argument They that haue the office to determine what is the true faith that is what is revealed what is not revealed their authority is the foundation of faith But the Romish Church that is the Pastors of their Church hath that office Therefore the authority of their Church that is the Pastors of their Church is the foundation of their faith The Proposition needs no reliefe for that office of shewing what is revealed and what is not is the next and formall reason of their beleefe as by their doctrine and practise we shall see hereafter num 8. c. The Assumption needes our helpe as little for every man that is acquainted with their faith knowes that they giue their Church that office yet for further explication I will shew the same by the Councel of Trent Sess 4. praeterea c. saith It is the office of the Church to iudge of the true meaning and sense of the Scriptures By Church they vnderstand the Pastors of the Church and we know it by their practise and the Iudgement of their learned No man inioyeth a share in the voice of deciding Iudgement in any Councel but their Bishops who onely according to them are the Pastors of the Church By Iudging is meant an inforcing power compelling their sentence to be obeyed and received By sense of the Scriptures is vnderstood every Article or sentence of faith for an Article of faith is a sentence held according to the true sense of Gods word By Scriptures they vnderstand every particular sentence contained in the Scriptures for if they meant some places onely there could be no certainty in this decree because they doe not determine the particular places subiected to the Churches sentence and when they subiect the sense of
the Scriptures and of Christs comming to saue sinners by the voice of humane faith though it be in words never so plaine and expresse yet it giues not being to the Church for the Church subsisteth in it selfe and differeth from all other societies by supernaturall not by naturall or humane endowments and this I take as granted In the second sense the Proposition is true namely The profession even in so many words of these fundamentall truthes There be Scriptures Christ came to saue sinners by the voice of divine faith is the very soule of the Church and so essentiall therto that without it there can be no Christian Church and where that is the Church is also because it is so operatiue wheresoever it doth encline that all other things requisite to a Christian Church does follow according as this Opponent writeth pag. 21.29.34 CHAP. 12. The Romish Church directly denies salvation by Christ BVt in this sense the Assumption is false the present Romish Church does in words and professedly deny the being of the Scriptures and the comming of Christ to saue sinners according vnto the voice of divine faith and I proue it thus They that doe not confesse Christs comming to saue sinners doe professedly deny his comming to saue sinners for in this case a not confession is a professed negation and so accounted by our Saviour who saith he that is not with me is against me he that gathereth not scattereth Matth. 12.30 And good reason hee should so esteeme it for such a not confession is a voluntary omission of our duty This is the will of my heavenly Father that yee beleeue on him whom hee hath sent Ioh. 6.29 Even all men whatsoever because the earth is his inheritance and the vttermost ends thereof is his possession Psal 2.8 Wee see the truth hereof in the omission of any duty Hee that withheld his tythes is held professedly to deny the paying of tythes Mal. 3.8 He that honoureth not his parents is reckoned professedly to dishonour his Parents Matth. 15.6 This Proposition then being very evident I thus assume But the Romish Church doth not confesse Christs comming to saue sinners by the voice of divine faith because the faith of that Church by meanes of the foundation thereof is humane and not divine as hath beene manifestly proved cap. 4. num 7. c. He thinks to shrowd himselfe vnder the authority of our Church which hee vrgeth negatiuely thus Our Church does charge her to erre in matter of faith Art 19 but not with direct deniall of salvation by Christ Therefore the Romish Church is not so to bee charged I answer 1. he takes the authority of our Church to be of moment I demand then why he disputes against her all this while yea against her doctrine subscribed by himselfe 2. The consequence is nought our Churches silence argues not the Romish Church to be innocent for this question of denying or not denying was not in being when her faith was published This was done Anno 1562. that began Anno 1588. or neere thereupon for any thing I can yet learne or this Opponent proue 3. The Antecedent is false for two reasons 1. Errours in matters of faith may be a direct deniall of salvation by Christ for he that so denies errs in matter of faith and we must thinke our Church meant so because her words will beare it and this Opponent cannot shew the contrary 2. Our Church in the second Homily for Whitsontide often times already alledged does deny her to be built vpon Christ the corner stone in that foundation and that importeth a direct deniall of salvation by Christ because he that sits besides that foundation shall goe without salvation This proofe and defence being considered we may safely rest in this conclusion The Romish Church according to the voice of divine faith professedly denies Christs comming to saue sinners and accordingly we haue the victory and ours is the day according to this Opponents offer and our acceptation num 4. chap. 11. I might proceed to proue their professed deniall of the Scriptures vpon the same ground but I forbeare to doe it because the Reader may see this Argument serues for both that and this by changing the termes This Opponent seemeth to qualifie his former recited promise and calleth vs as he thinkes to a new reckoning pag. 22 23. wherein hee writeth thus They overthrow the foundation directly to whom Christ is an execration And to tread vnder foot the sonne of God to count the blood of the covenant wherewith all wee are sanctified an vnholy thing and to doe despite vnto the spirit of grace Heb. 10.29 is directly to deny the foundation And then he assumes in these words Of which crime whosoever is able let him indict the Church of Rome producing sufficient evidence thereof and whosoever shall open his mouth to plead for them let him be guilty of all the dishonour that ever hath beene done to the Sonne of God and lyable to the Apostles curse 1 Cor. 16.22 I answere this is his last refuge if therefore he failes in this he is gone for ever In true forme he reasoneth thus They that directly deny salvation by Christ are guilty as aforesaid But the Romish Church are not so guilty Therefore the Romish Church denies not directly salvation by Christ I may except against the Assumption with better reason then he can argue for it wherefore this I say The Romish Church is so guilty for They that know and belieue Christs comming to saue sinners onely by naturall reason and humane faith They tread him vnder foote account his blood vnholy and doe despite vnto the spirit of grace Heb. 10.29 because the naturall man perceiveth or receiveth not the things of God as they are the things of God forasmuch as they are spiritually discerned 1 Cor. 2.14 The very wisedome of the flesh is enmitie vnto God Rom. 8.7 But the Romish Church does know and beleiue Christs comming to saue sinners only by naturall reason and humaine faith for all their knowledge and beleiving ariseth vpon the teaching of the Pastors of their Church which is meerly humaine because they haue no Commission for such teaching as appeareth Cap. 4. num 7. c. If any man doe iudge that the place alledged Heb. 10.29 mean no more but thus then I rest here as in a sufficient answer to this argument and claim this Opponents finall promise last mentioned and so we are at an end for this cause the day is ours we must carry the victory and the signes thereof leading these Opponents in tryumph If the Apostle be vnderstood to speake of more then this then I deny the Proposition as wanting the very shew of truth I say some men directly deny salvation by Christ who are not guiltie as aforesaid and I haue two reasons for it the first is this Iewes and Pagans are not guilty as aforesaid for the parties so guilty haue received the knowledge of the truth
matter more solemnly then any other passage in this businesse wherefore I will lose a little time to shew it to the Reader and put my answere thereunto These are his words Our adversaries in this cause must giue us leaue till we heare further from them to thinke this our third Argument drawne from the lawfull Baptisme of the Church of Rome to bee vnanswerable I answere It seemeth when you heare from vs and finde we ioyne not with you your minde will change are you so variable that you are one thing when the streame goes with you and another when it is against you Well wee now know your minde you would not say nay till you had heard vs say so before you Now you haue so much as you expected see you performe whatsoever you haue promised and so I passe from this third Argument CHAP. 16. The fourth Argument for the same purpose HIs fourth Argument himselfe setteth out in this sort Wheresoever there bee persons retaining the Ministeriall function and office Ephes 4.8 There is the true Church because such persons haue the tutelage of the Church Cant. 8.11 and the promise of Christs presence to the worlds end Mat. 28.20 But in the Church of Rome there be such persons Therefore the Romish Church is a true Church This Argument is implyed in the title of chap. 11. pag. 48. The Proposition is expressely delivered pag. 50. and the proofe thereof pag. 49. the Assumption and the proofe therof is implyed in these words There is lawfull ordination in the Church of Rome pag. 56. In the Church of Rome there is true and lawfull or dination wherein they receiue commission and doe promise to teach the people not the Popes Legends but out of the holy Scriptures so that both Pastor and Flock are ours by admission promise and ingagement theirs by abuse and practise pag. 58. The conclusion is also implyed in these words She hath not wholly lost the face of a Church pag. 58. I answere a short businesse will satisfie this Argument if wee remember what hath beene said touching the two former The proposition cannot be denied because where the ministeriall function mentioned Ephes 4.8 is present there the word and Sacraments of Christ duly administred connot be wanting seeing this function presumeth that word and those Sacraments as a fountaine from whence it flowed and an obiect whereabout it is exercised as our Sauiours words Mat. 28.19.20 do import But the assumption is false and impossible to be true For they haue forsaken the fountaines of liuing water Ier. 2.13 what life therefore can be in them Shall we looke for the ministeriall function mentioned Ephes 4.8 where the words and seales of Christs charter are wanting Surely no wise man will and he that does shall loose his longing and his eyes shall sooner faile then the thing he lookes for be found This is enough in the strictest termes to refell this argument Yet more specially I answere that function Ephes 4.8 implyeth a double power the one of Iurisdiction and the other of Order The first doth exercise Church discipline for goverment as imposing of hands vnto ordination c. The other administreth the word and Sacraments as Bellarmine truly hath it De Rom. Pont. lib. 4. cap. 22. At the begining with the ioynt consent of all theirs and ours Now neither of these powers of Iurisdiction or of Order mentioned Ephes 4.8 can be found in the Romish Church for they serue to gather the Saints and to build vp the body of Christ verse 12.13 But the Romish Church can haue none such seeing their faith is erronious and their Sacraments shadowes and without the true substance Moreouer such as haue the power of order haue commission Mat. 28.19 to teach divine faith and administer Christs Sacraments but none amongst them haue such commission for they are admitted and and ordained to offer vp the body and blood of Christ a propitiatory sacrifice for the quick and dead as we learne by the Councell of Trent Sess 22. Can. 1.2.3 If any man thinke that the Councel hath not set out the adequate nature of their power of order he must shew some other Record conteyning matter of their faith wherein their order of Preisthood consisteth in more then this But we knowe he cannot because perpetuall experience shewes that so soone as a Preist is ordeined he is such a sacrificer and as he is a Preist he doth noe other office but offer that sacrifice what everels they do it is an addition to their Preisthood They haue the power of Iurisdiction in some sort namely soe farre as humaine reason leads them therevnto They found that in the precedent ages of the Church they sawe it was comly and profitable and therefore they continew it still amongst them But as we said before of the word and Sacraments professed and adminnistred by them so must we say of power of Iurisdiction according to divine faith they haue no such power because they receiue it not from God by his authority as a Revealer of the sacred verities but chiefly and next of all because the Pastors of their Church command it and accordingly they exercise and apply it These things being true as they are certaine The Assumption is false for they haue not that power of Iurisdiction whereof we reade Ephes 4.8 for that is such a Iurisdiction as is received from and imployed about the word of divine faith Noreover this power of Iurisdiction which we grant them profits them nothing because their power to ordaine Elders exercise Church Discipline arising from humane reason and serving to humane ends hath no place nor power in constituting that Church which is indeed the family of Iesus Now we haue denied his Assumption and given our reason for that deniall we must see in the next place what reason he can bring to confirme the same and for that end we find three things to which I answere ioyntly that they come too short because they serue not to take away the reason of our deniall and therefore are not sufficient to maintaine his Assumption The first himselfe disposeth thus If they haue not lawfull ordination then haue not we for ours comes from them I answere this comes farre short of his Assumption for in that he attributes the Ministeriall function whereof we reade Ephes 4.8 vnto the Romish Church In this he speakes onely of ordination which is but one part of that function so as if he would dispute from their ordination as hee does from their Ministeriall function his Argument would proue their Church to be a true Church very weakly and lamely because the being and essence of Christs Church is not constituted by any power of ordination and this is enough to satisfie this consequence of our Opponent B. But we will try him a little further Hee saith Our Ordination came from them and thereby he indeavours to proue the foresaid consequence But it comes short of that The outward ceremony
of Ordination that is the imposing of hands by one that hath Diocesan Authority which we enioy and doe exercise came from them so farre for this time we yeeld that is that such Ministers of ours as first led the way vnto our seperation from them were ordeined or admitted into the worke of the Ministery by such authority of theirs But this proues not that our Ordination and theirs is the same for ours ariseth from and is exercised about divine faith so is not theirs Our Ordination as it ariseth from and is exercised about divine faith is not received from them because amongst them that divine faith is wholly wanting If then any desire to know how they and we doe agree in the outward ceremony and disagree in the in the inward and Spirituall life of Ordinaâ—ion or the power of Iurisdiction left by Christ vnto his Church I answere the providence of God hath made that difference They are given vp to beleeue lyes wee are preserved in the truth and faith once delivered to the Saints The second proofe of his Assumption is contained in these words Wee doe not ordeine them anew which haue taken Orders from that Sea when they become converts I answere 1. This proofe hath the same fault with the former Orders cannot argue the Ministeriall function Ephes 4.8 because that comprehends more then then this yea this seemes to be but the entrance into the function and not the essence thereof 2. I answere The inference is also naught Their ordination may not be repeated when they turne to vs yet ours and theirs may be essentially different as an empty vessell may not be reiected and yet differs from that which is full and indeed soe stands the case betweene their ordination and ours They haue the outward ceremony taken vp by tradition from the precedent and pure ages of the Church wee haue that and the substance also because divine faith goes with ours but is wanting to theirs His third proofe conteineth these words They receiue commission to teach the Scripture not the Popes Legends I answer This branch came out of his owne braine He never found it in any records of their faith Moreover the records of their faith are against him as I haue partly alledged Num. 3. and may further appeare by the 4. Sess of the Councell of Trent formerly reported wherein the iudgment of the true sence of the Scriptures is attributed to the Church that is as themselues expound it vnto the Pope If then their preists must each the Scriptures in the Popes sense then the Scriptures are no better then the Popes Legends and consequently when they teach the Scriptures they teach the Popes Legends To conclude if Commission to teach the Popes Legends be a Ministery differing from the Ministery Ephes 4.8 as this Opponent implyes then the Popish Priesthood is not that Ministery Ephes 4.8 because it teaches the Popes Legends And thus in stead of confirming he overthrowes his Assumption CHAP. 17. The conclusion of the whole claiming our Opponents promise NOw we haue fully finished the body of the disputation we are to come vnto both our Opponents conclusions lest something be left vntouched to the hurt of the cause and offence to the Reader Our elder Opponent concludeth his booke pag. 115. with these words I desire to stand but so right as I am in all honest Iudgements I beseech all Readers to Iudge wisely and vprightly of what I haue written And in his second Epistle he promiseth after this sort If you can soundly and substantially Convince mee of vntruth I professe before God and the world that I will yeeld vnto you without any more adoe being already willing to be overcome of the trueth in this case The younger Opponent pag. 132. ioynes with his partner in the same promise If I haue erred I shall thank those that will bring mee into the way againe If I haue favoured any vnsound opinion yea or haue spoken suspitiously let me suffer as an Heretick but let no man condemne me till he hath first shewed me better and found me obstinate I answere the whole summe of their promise makes vp this conditionall Proposition If we haue erred we will revoke that errour Whereunto I will adde this Assumption But you haue erred And accordingly every must make this conclusion Therefore you must revoke your errour The consequence of the proposition may not be questioned because then selues haue made it and the one hath professed before God to performe it The other craueth the punnishment due to an heritick if he breakes it Wherefore so farr our ground worke is certaine If they doubt of the assumption they haue offred faire and I accept it They are content to stand to the iudgement of of such readers as be wise honest and do feare God I desire noe better arbitratours They require to be shewed better by sound and substantiall conviction and I say it is the best issue If therefore such Readers finde such conviction these Opponents must grant the assumption and execute the conclusion for every honest man performes his promise when he hath received the condition FINIS