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scripture_n	word_n	worship_n	year_n	74	3	4.3085	3	false

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ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A27068	Whether parish congregations be true Christian churches and the capable consenting incumbents, be truly their pastors, or bishops over their flocks ... : written by Richard Baxter as an explication of some passages in his former writings, especially his Treatise of episcopacy, misunderstood and misapplied by some, and answering the strongest objections of some of them, especially a book called, Mr. Baxters judgment and reasons against communicating with the parish assemblies, as by law required, and another called, A theological dialogue, or, Catholick communion once more defended, upon mens necessitating importunity / by Richard Baxter.	Baxter, Richard, 1615-1691.	1684 (1684)	Wing B1452; ESTC R16512	73,103	142

if by subjection you mean but joyning in their Churches as Christian and Protestant for doctrine and worship notwithstanding the defect which they cannot help yea which they disclaim bare accusation will not prove this a sin but by this we see how much of Christs Church you are for separating from 2. For my part I have oft published That it is not the least part of my charge against Popery that they unchurch almost all the Christian World save themselves But yet they are about a 4th or 3d part of professed Christians themselves and divers of them do not unchurch the Greeks But to unchurch or forbid Communion with all that are as faulty as the Helvetians and all other Protestant Churches that have Liturgies or partial faults is that which I dare not be guilty of I think that to say That a thousand parts to one of Christs Church are none of his Churches is next to deposing him from his Kingdom Much like as it would be to say no part of London is the Kings but Amen Corner nor any part of England but Barnet or Brentford 3. And is it not one of our just accusations of the Papists That they say all the Protestant Churches are no true Churches and the Ministers no true Pastors and that Communion with them is unlawful and shall we now justifie them and say as they tho not on the same Reason but for a far smaller difference Is this our running from Popery 4. Yea is it not the great thing that we accuse the superconformists for That they make us to be no true Ministers or Churches and are we indeed of the same mind One side saith We are no true Ministers for want of Bps. Ordination c. Another side saith You are no true Ministers for having Communion with the Bishops and Churches c. VII I mentioned the Judgment and Practise of the old Nonconformists and Presbyterians not as a rule but as a comparative example To this he saith p. 11. You and they might as well own the Church of England in the form and constitution as it is established as the Parish churches to be particular Gospel churches c. P. 12. To say you join with a quatenus and own not the very constitution and standing of the church with which you join in the sense the church asserts it is the greatest equivocation in practice that is The old Nonconformists nor you are to be no presidents to us in this case So far as the old Nonconformists and the old reforming conformists went forward with Reformation to bring the church out of the wilderness we honour them but when they turn back again and entice the people so to do we are afraid to tempt God in that manner P. 14. Those ●ld Nonconformists that did so are no presidents to 〈◊〉 If they halted and were lame must we be so such communicants are not acceptable to any Church and I know what Church would never admit them were it not to punish and expose them and their profession as ridiculous and inconsistent with its self And as for FRENCH and DUTCH what are they to us c. P. 16 He calls Mr. Fenns joining in the Liturgy with exception of some part The sul●en practice of a half-paced doting Nonc●nformist Ans First to the Cause and secondly to the Persons 1. To call any practice Equivocation or by any ill name is no proof that it is so nor is here a word of true proof given us I ask the Considerate Is it in the power of a Law-maker to make all Worship and Duty to God unlawful by commanding to do it for an unlawful end or upon false principles What if a Law said All people shall worship God not because the Scripture commandeth it but because the State commands it Would this make it unlawful to worship God I would disown the Principle and go on What if the Law should say The Pastoral Office is not of Divine Right but humane must the office therefore be renounced And why can such a Law any more bind me to judg of Church-constitutions by the Lawmakers words rather than by Gods Word Suppose that the Anabaptists say That rebaptizing is the true way of Church-gathering Is it a sin to communicate with them if they will receive me when I profess the contrary I am against the Covenant which you defend as making an Independent Church Is it therefore a sin to communicate with them because it is not as constituted by that Covenant What do Parties more differ in of late than Forms Orders Modes and Circumstances of Church Government and if they be of many contrary minds were it twenty there can be but one of them in the right And is it unlawful to join with all the rest Must we needs be sure which of these is in the right Almost all the Churches that I hear of in the world have their agreed professions published the Protestants are gathered in the Corpus confessionum the English Church Principles and Orders are expressed in the Book of Canons the Liturgy Ordination the 39 Articles the Homilies the Apology c. Must every one stay from their Churches till he hath read and understood all these Books and be sure that there is no fault or error in them What if it be poor men or women that cannot buy all these books and what if they cannot read whom shall they get to read them all and how shall they have time to study them or capacity to understand them when we can hardly get them to learn a Catechism and anderstand it You will say That is their crime that make all these Confessions and Books They will answer but that 's none of our fault We made them not and yet must we not communicate with any Church that maketh such The old Separatists called Brownists published their confession and therein owned many Parish Churches in England and Communion with them I recited their words in my Reasons c. But you are gone beyond them The New England churches printed their confession and all there agreed not to it The English Independents published their Principles and Confessions And the Presbyterians and they agreed in the Westminster Synods confession catechism and Directory Is every poor Man and Woman bound to stay from all their churches when for 14 years they had no other till they understand all these and know that they are faultless Or if there be any fault in any one of all these books is every one guilty of them that cometh to the churches The Anabaptists published their confession The Dutch have theirs Many churches agreed with them in the Synod of Dort The French have theirs the Saxons the Helvetians Geneva the Bohemians the Protestants in general had the Augustane and many more have theirs Reader See with whom these Writers will hold communion who make it unlawful to join with any church that have any fault in their constitutions or agreed Doctrines or Orders

I confess one man may possibly live under so intollerable a Minister as is not to be owned And even some of the high adversaries of Nonconformists seem of this mind and break the Canon and having Pastors who they think do not heartily conf●rm ●ut plead for Peace and Moderation they revile them as Trimmers and will not Communicate wi●h them but go out of their own Parishes and thousands seldom any where Other circumstances also may vary mens cases ●ut some Objectors at last t●ll us that the great difference which they mean is differe●t light T●e ●ld Martyrs Reformers and Nonconformists had not so much light as we and so it w●s not th●●r sin but greater light being now m●r● common it will be a common sin to j●yn in the Liturgy Ans 1. It is ordinary and easie for men to magnifie their own understandings but Gods Law was then the same as now and they were bound to know it Their ignorance might make sin less and stripes fewer but could not make it none 2. I have many Reasons to think that it is your light that is l●ss and the old Nonconformists and Conformists in this that was greater 1. That is the greater light that most agreeth with Gods Word and th● universal churches practice accordingly 2. The writings of the old Nonconformists yet extant give better reas●ns than the seperatists did and therefore had clearer light What vast difference is there in the writings of Ball Hildersham Am●sius Manuductions Gifford Paget Bradshaw c. on that part and Johnsons Cans Penrys c. on the other 3. The Theological writings and labours of the Nonconformists in all other points shewed that they were men of incomparable more light than the Separatists and is it like that God would give men such rare light only in church communion that had so little comparatively in the rest of Divinity except Ainsworth's skill in Hebrew in other things by Paget laid too naked how few old Separatists have left any considerable fruits of great light unto the church Read the writings of Cartwright Dudley Fenner Hildersham John Reignolds Dod Perkins Bai● Parker Ames Bradshaw c. Besides Scots and all Foreigners such as Calvin Beza Zanchy Sadeel and hundreds more and compare these with the Writings of the Separatists and judg who had greater light 4. Since 1660. all the London Ministers and others with them t●at offered the King to set up in the parish churches the old Liturgy with some alterations were men except my self who shewed in their Writings and preaching as much light as the Separatists have shewed even Brown or John Goodwin himself that wrote Prelatical Preachers are no Teachers of Christ Where do they now shew greater light than others this boast to me deserveth pity more than confutation Anabaptists and others say the same but I find much less light in them both when I read and hear them tho I truly love and honour all that is good in them If you have so much more light than we and all the Reformed churches shew it us in other excellencies XLI But I must more particularly consider of this Authors Allegation of my own words against me especially my Treatise of Episcopacy And I do heartily thank him for calling me to review it For 1. I profess to write nothing which may not be amended And 2. If mens misunderstanding turn my writings to a snare and scandal it greatly concerneth me to remove it by explication or by retractation of any thing that needeth it And 1. I do find that I have incautelously given some occasion to the mistake for thol entituled my Book not against Diocesan episcopacy but against that sort of Diocesan churches Prelacy and Government which casteth out the Primitive church sp●cies of ●piscopacy Ministry and Discipline and tho to avoi● mistake I said in the Preface I ●ere give notice to the Reader that whenever 〈…〉 me speak as against the English Diocesan Prelacy I mean it as described by Cosins and Dr. Zouch and as relating to the Et c●tera Oaths and 〈◊〉 and not in opposition to the laws of the Land Yet all this was not enough to avoid misunderstanding Indeed I took the church Government to be described and judged of by the churches own sentence more than by the ●●w and I had read the said Et cetera oath and canons with the words that so it ●ught to stand which I think could mean nothing less than that so by Gods Law it ought to stand and I had read the old canons 6 th 7 th and 8 th Which ex●ommunicate ipso facto all men with●ut excepting L●rds or Parliament M●n who affirm that any thing in the church Government by Arch-Bishops Bishops Deans Arch-Deacons and THE REST that bear office therein is repugnant to the Word of God And I read the canons that forbid Ordained Ministers to preach till they are further licensed by Bishops yea and in the church or elsewhere so much as to expound any Doctrine or Matter but only to r●ad Scripture and Homilies c. with much more like this 3. And then I took the stated restraint of the Ministry with Lay-chancellors and officials decre●ive power of Excommunication and absolution and the foresaid Civilians denying all G●venment to Presbyters to have been quoad exercitium quantum 〈◊〉 at least an overthrow of parish churches Rectors and discipline 4. And I thought that the Bishops and Chancellors could never have so long done all this and ruled by these canons if the Law had not been on their side 5. And I thought that the Authors of the canons of 1640 being a c●nvo●a●i●n it was to be called the Church of England and specially when I found the most highly honoured Doctors pleading there was no Bishop but D●●cesan and no church without its proper Bishop By all these inducements with long sad experience I oft speak so incautelously calling this the English d●●●●san frame that the Reader might easily think that I meant it was that frame that was setled by law whereas having read ●ryn H●ntley Leigh●●● and others that deny the law to be for it and being my self a stranger to that case of Law I should have more fully separated the Law case from the new convocation case and much more from the destructive Innovators case who nullified the foreign churches with whom it was that I disputed and specially considering that the canons and oath of 1640. were a●ter cashier'd by Parliament and never since restor'd no not by the Parliament of 1662. Upon all this 1. I retract all words that seem to determine the case in Law if any such be there or that by darkness tend so to the Readers error 2. And all words that make the writings of superconformists and subver●ers or chang●rs of the church government or the canons of the convocation 1640 to be the sense of the Church of England when it is said that before its sence was otherwise and alteration is now abjured

Let us rise upward till we come to the Apostles days None of all these churches named dare profess all their agreements and confession to be without fault that ever I heard of except the English who bind Ministers to assent and consent to all things commanded and prescribed in three Books and excommunicate those that say their Books or Ceremonies and Government hath any thing contrary to the Word of God but no Lay-man is bound to believe them Wickliffe and John H●s the Waldenses and the Bohemians Confessions are not faultless Of the Papist and the S●cinians we will make no question the forenamed churches of Greeks Russians Armenians Abassines Nestorians Jacobites c. are alas past question faulty the general councils upward from that of Trent Basil Constance c. to the six first yea the four first which some equal to the four Gospels are far from being faultless in the Judgment of these Objectors and of my self the Arrian and other heretical councils are past question even that of Nice the first and best I suppose he and I think did not well in setling church-power as they did and forbidding all kneeling on the Lords days in Adoration and other the like The Donatists and the Novatians called the Puritans of those times had faulty agreements were it but for Bps. and Arch-Bps ●e will think them so this Writer can name no one church on the face of the Earth Orthodox or heretical tho Aerius called Presbyters equal with Bps. that was not for Bishops over Presbyters from the year 100 after Christ t●ll the Reformation that ever I could read of Yea consider whether they were not in the Apostles days when Jerome who most depresseth this degree saith That there were such at Alexandria chosen by the Presbyters from the days of Mark and Mark died long before John the Apostle But Episcopacy is not all Not only Epiphanius but all Church History that speaketh of such matters agreeth that besides the croud of latter Ceremonies there were certain ceremonies called the customes of the Universal Church which all the known Churches agreed in even those that differ'd about Easter-day and other such that is 1. Cloathing the Baptized in white Garments 2. Giving them milk and hony to tast 3. Anointing them with Oyl 4. Not kneeling in adoration on any Lords day or any other day between Easter and Whitsunday There is no notice when these began so ancient were they nor of any one Church or Christian that refused them but they were commonly called the Traditions Apostolical or customes of the Universal Church Now I agree with this Author that these things were indeed a deviation from the Apostles practice and ought not to have been thus used But the question is whether every Christian was guilty of the fault that had communion with any of these churches and whether had he then lived he should have separated from all the Churches on earth By this you see that this opinion must needs make men seekers who say that the church was in the wilderness and lost all true Ministry and say they particular churches and Scripture after the first or at most the second century and so that for fourteen hundred years Christ had no visible Kingdom on earth And consequently that we have no wiser answer to the Papist where was your church before Luther than to say that it was Invisible that is that we cannot prove that there was any such thing on Earth and consequently that we cannot prove that Christ had any Kingdom on earth and was its King that is whether there was any Christ in actual church-administration And doth separating from the whole visible church-communion agree with the prophecies and precepts of union Was this church like a grain of Mustard seed in its growth Was all the wonderful works of redemption wrought for no visible society after one or two hundred years in which a few persecuted ones were visible Is not this the next step and a temptation to utter infidelity If Christ have now no visible church on earth but the people called Brownists or Separatists doth it answer the Scripture description of him and his church And is it not exposing christianity to the scorn of infidels so to say Would not almost all rather turn Papists than believe this And be rather of their church than of none 2. But let us next speak of the persons I may speak my thoughts without imposing on you I think that the Major vote is no rule to the Minor nor always is in the right If a hundred men that understand not Greek or Hebrew Translate a Text one way and a good Linguist another way I will more suspect their judgment than his And so in the like case But if I hear a few odd persons condemn the judgment of the generality that are far better acquainted with matters of the same nature as if School-boys that are but in their Accidence should oppose all the upper Forms in expounding Horace or Hesiod or Homer which think you should I most suspect I say again to you compare the writings of Bucer Peter Martyr Calvin Beza Melancthon Chami●r Blondel Dailee and a bundance such and also Greenhams Perkins Dr. J●●n R●ignolds Cartwrights Dods Hildershams Hieroms Amesius's Payne● R●l●e●ks and many such yea with such conformists as Jewels Bp. Downames John Downames Davenants Bp. Halls Arch-Bp Ushers Bp. Rob. Abbots Dr Field● Dr. Challoners Dr. Airys c. I say compare these with the Theological writings of Mr. Penry Mr. Can and all other called separat●sts or Brownists in their times and tell me whether these later did manifest more Holy Wisdom in Heavenly things more skill in all other points of Divinity than the former If their writings giving Mr. Ainsworth his due honour in Hebrew and Piety were as far below the other as the lower forms of School-boys are beneath the highest which should we most suspect to have had the greater or the lesser light specially when the lower condemn and cut off themselves from communion with all Christs known Churches on earth for thirteen hundread years When Mr. Smith and lately a very good man here thought none fit to Baptize him again but Baptized himself was not that singularity a just cause of suspicion Yet I make not the old Nonconformists your rule VIII I argued also from the common frailties of us all that it will be unlawful to communicate with any Church on earth even with those of the objectors mind if we are guilty of the sins in Doctrine worship and discipline of all Churches that we communicate with I will aggravate none nor render that odious which God accepteth My work is to confute those that do so But I say that 1. we have all many errors And men use to put their errors into their prayers and preaching 2. Do not men use to deliberate more and study what to write than what to preach And have men reason to be confident that our preaching

discharged from obedience in lawful things by the addition of some unlawful commands that destroy not acceptable Worship and turn not our food to Poyson I tell those Ministers that publickly charge this on Nonconformists that they must not charge any Doctrine of Seekers or Anabaptists or such separatists to be the Nonconformists Doctrine I know not one meer Nonconformist of that mind What we of this Age thought of Ep●scopacy Liturgy and Magistracy all that would come in and own that cause openly with us have told the world in our published Proposals of 1660 and 1661 To which we refer them that would know their minds XI But when I oft alledged the example of Christ and the Apostles this Objector and Answerer saith p. 19. We make not Christ and his Apostles Hypocrites for we have proved that Christ never joined with false worship so much as with his presence at the place of it unless with this intent to bear witn●ss against it nor did he ever advise his disciples so to d● As for Moses Chair it was then Christs own Institution and he had th●n no other Church or Institution on earth Ans It was cautelously done to pass by the instances of the Apostles that neither separated nor commanded one man to separate from all the faulty Churches Rev. 2.3 Notwithstanding the Woman Jezab●●s Doctrine and that of the Nicolaitans which God hated and the evil practices nor from the Church of Corinth where were carnal Schisms Defraudings Lawsuits before Heathens incest unlamented Sacrament disorders even to excess of drink disorder in Church Worship c. Nor from any other faulty Churches Meth●n●s th●y that are so strict against any additions in Modes of Worship should not so much add or alter Scripture or accuse it of de●●ctiveness as to suppose the Apostles to have culpably communicated with such Churches as Co●inth Coloss Ephesus Sardis Laodicea Smy●na c. yea and with the Jews who by falsifying the Rules called it unlawful to eat with the Gentiles or to eat what Moses Law fo●bad and not to keep their days Pauls accomplishing of his Vow in the T●mple and becoming a Jew to the Jews was fully contrary to the opponents D●ctrine And as to Christs practice we said before you that he conformed not to any evil nor should you But did he not send the Lepers to a false ill-called corrupt sort of Priests to do by and with them what the Law required Did he not ord●narily joyn in the Synagogues in their worsh●p Could he have leave constantly to teach there if he had there used to cry down their ordinary worship Had the Ceremonious Pharisees no ill forms nor ceremonies in their Worship Again I say Their long Prayers which were the Cloak of their oppression were either ●xt●mporate or forms of Liturgy If extemporate then the worst of Hypocrites may constantly use long extemporate Prayers and it had been no injury to the Spirit in them to have perswaded them to use Christs form instead of them If they were Liturgies then Christ did not separate from such no nor reprove them at all when he reproveth the hypocritical abuse of them Yea seemeth to commend them while he nameth them as a Cloak to cover evil which nothing is fit for that is not good Obj. He had no oth●r Church Ans 1. Then most in England m●y go to the Parish Churches where they have no other Church to go to 2. But Christ had twelve Apostles and 70 or 72 other Teachers and many more Disciples Were these no Church nor matter for a Church XII Obj. Page 4. God hath not left it in our power to communicate with any society when they make that the condition of my Communion which I am convinced of to be sin to me that I question whether it be lawful or no c. Ans How oft have I answered this without any reply 1. If they make your consent to any sin the condition of your Communion you must avoid it But if they put no sin on you to be present when they sin is a condition to all Church Communion and to your own praying who sin in all your self you before excepted sins of ordinary infirmity as not warranting separation And when did you ever prove that the composing and imposing of the Liturgy much more the Obedient use of the Lords-day part is not a sin of infirmity as much as slandering it and the Churches and writing such Books as yours Accusing is not proving 2. If your taking it for sin be true you must forbear it If you mistake it for sin which is duty per se or per accidens you sin against God and truth by your mistake and by your Omission God bindeth you to alter your Judgment and so he doth if you take an indifferent thing for sin tho here it is safest to forbear An erring Conscience is no Lawmaker less then a Magistrate but a misconceiver and doth ligare non obligare XIII Obj. But none of the things are indeed Worship which you say men may command Ans That man shall be none of my guide that makes questions of bare names to seem to the people as if they were about the matter named They are such accidents of the Worship which God himself commandeth as are done in the outward expression of reverence and honour to God and the more decent and edifying performance of his own Institutions This is the description of them Kneeling being uncovered swearing with outward signs singing in Tunes Metre c. Agree to the thing and call these Worship or no Worship as you please You say False Worship is no Worship If so it is no bad Worship but all faulty Worship is not null XIV As for his general talk of me how much I have promoted Popery and being for Justification by works and merit c. I give him leave to ease his Stomach without an Answer and all those to be deceived by him that will take his word and not read mine especially my Treatise of imputed Righteousness Page 9. He saith When the Scripture speaks of justification by faith Doth any sound Divine or Christians understand it of the act of believing but that its the obj●ct of faith that justifieth Ans See how strictly these men stick to Scripture that will have it the sole Law of Circumstances and yet can deny it as Expositors at their pleasure when Paul over and over so often saith That we are justified by faith and faith is imputed for righteousness and Christ saith Thy faith hath saved thee It is not faith that they mean but Christ It is faith in Christ There is no faith but the act or habit of believing Rom. 3.21 The righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ on all that believe 25. Through faith in his blood 26. The justifier of him which believeth in Jesus Many ways such will be odiously perverted if you put Christ instead of Faith we are justified by no