deny them as coming from him but as to the substance of some of the particulars I did own having laid them down according to my own honest meaning in my own found expression of words and thereupon I engaged a dispute upon the particulars having first denied them as laid down by him and in his corrupt expressions and then owned them in the simplicity in the words as by me uttered I mean some of them but some I altogether denied And as to speak of that Text Ioh. 5. 39. by which sayest thou I endeavoured to skin over what I spoke but to no punpose I do deny thy words for that same verse shal stand a witness for me and against thee in all the world and that verse shall prove that some of the Scriptures were spoken to the world and not to the Saints and the truth it self is my covering and I need no other thing to skin over as thou scornfully spakest And whereas thou sayest There was just matter of reproof in the dispute in both parties c. Answ. While thou hast condemned others thou hast judged thy self who was of the one party a strong contender for the Priests party and having now accused both parties would clear thy self to be of neither but cannot for it is known that thou didst take their part and in the title thou sayest the discourse was betwixt a party of them called Quakers with Mr. Philip T. c. where thou dost own thy self to be one and reckons thy self the formost Master of the Disputants and now upon better consideration I think when thou hast searched into their folly with whom thou wast joined thou wouldst absent thy self to be none of them but a third party but let me tell thee what disorder prejudice and passion as thou speaks of as was amongst the Priests thou hast a part in and must own their sin and their condemnation for thou art also guilty and that there was any passion except pure zeal for God and his truth which thou mightest falsely so call or prejudice or such like amongst us I db deny it and knows thee to have born a false testimony and all thy covers as if thou wert a moderator or the like in thy speaking will not hide thee nor cover thee from what I have said of thee But as to the things in particular I now come and may shew what my words are and the ground of them and how I laid them down and upon what occasion in the first meeting whereupon the Dispute did arise and I do not here go about to give a perfect relation of that Dispute for my memory hath not contained what passed but as to the intent and meaning of my words I would give all the true knowledge thereof and how far I do own the particulars charged against me First as to that The Scriptures are not the word of God because the Devil spoke something and Pharoah something which is there written Answ. There is some truth in this but my words were drawn up by him at the shortest and the most for his own advantage laid down by him for I do remember that in the first meeting I was a speaking concerning the Word of God and concerning the Scriptures which are a declaration thereof and shewing the difference betwixt the Word and the Letter and Scriptures for the Word of God was in the beginning and the world was made by it and it endures for ever but the Scriptures were not in the beginning for Moses was the first that wrote any thing of the Scripture who was long after the beginning neither was the world made by them neither can they endure for ever and therefore the letter the Scriptures are not the Word of God which the Scriptures call the Word for also in the Scriptures are written what the Devil spoke and what Pharoah and other wicked men spoke and therefore they are not the Word of God but as I have said a declaration of the Word and what is written of is the Word but the Scriptures the writings are not but a testimony and declaration of the Word much more as to this might be said and was spoken by me at the meeting which is not particularly related and this is sufficient to any honest man that is spiritual who hath an understanding to judge hereof Now I suppose themselves none of them are so ignorant as they will say the Scriptures are that Word which was in the beginning and which shall endure for ever but say they the Scriptures are another Word a declarative Word or such like terms now when we dispute or contend with any about the Word of God we dispute what that Word is which the Scripture saith is the Word and doth deny that Word to be the Scriptures writings though still we do own the Scriptures a declaration of that very Word of God and that the Scriptures in any place doth call themselves the Word or signifie so much I do deny it and it is left for any of our opposers to prove it that can if they do I will confess it to be the Word and revoke all that I have spoken to the contrary And as for thy deductions and consequences drawn from my words I do deny them for they are not to me but will turn upon thy self for thou sayest A strange kind of assertion as if nothing of the mind will and councel of God were declared in Scripture and whitherto can be the tendency of such giddy doctrines then to a weakening the authority of the Scriptures and begetting slightings and undervaluing thoughts and that the effects may be lightly esteeming the Scriptures These and such deductions hast thou drawn through thy ignorance from my words from all which I am clear as having no intent to any such things nor any intent but to testifie the pure innocent truth and thy deductions are far more ignorant and impudent then my assertion is strange and let thy consequences be what they will from my words the truth of my words will justifie me in the sight of God and his Saints for I do honour the Scriptures above other writings and gives them the authority and esteem and respect due unto them and more I dare not And some of thy pages I pass over as not worth taking notice of onely doth say thou hast wronged me in not relating so much as was spoken by us by far and in relating more then was spoken by thee or thy party And the next thing I note is this where R G. said he would and went about to prove that the Letter is the Word of God but was not nor is never able to prove and thou hast changed the words of his argument in thy relation from what they were as he laid them down in the dispute from called to owned For thus his words were laid down at that time said he That which Christ and the Apostles called the Word of God is indeed the Word
then said many of the people saw to be the very truth and all was well satisfied except such as might harden their hearts and much more pass'd betwixt us As to this thing which I cannot relate onely P. T. as he began so he goes on giving a report in his Relation of much more then himself spoke and a great deal lesse then we spoke which thing in him is not very fair nor honest For I then proved by many Scriptures that some were perfect in this life 1 Cor. 2. 5. even perfect without sin Iohn 1. 47. 1 Iohn 3. 7. and yet I did declare at that time that many of the Saints and Children of God were not come to the state of perfection which admits of no addition for many of the Saints daily receives more and more of Gods wisdome and of his power and life revealed in them wherein they grow up to God from strength to strength And though they did so much contend against it yet in the end was forced to confesse to the substance of what we speak as to the particular of perfection The next thing is concerning perfection and I am charged with holding that perfection is attainable in this life which thing I did hold forth and contend for it and am not now ashamed of it and my very proofs which then I used some of which are related by P. T. is sufficient enough to prove the particular if I should say nothing more and even as the thing is related though what I spoke the whole is not related by much as about this particular of perfection but what is related shall stand as a witnesse for me and against them that doth so much plead against perfection even of such perfection to be without sin in this life And to this I shall say little more but leave his own relation unto the consideration of sober people onely must say that P. T. hath belyed his own memory in saying his relation is A Faithfull Account and yet hath related much more then he spoke also about this particular As to the next thing which is objected against me That the Scriptures were given to the world and not to the Saints this is utterly false was neither thus spoken by me nor yet my meaning And at the Dispute I did deny that I spoke the words neither had I any such intent as they have deducted though still I do confidently affirme that that Scripture Iohn 5. 39 was spoken to the unbelieving Jewes that went about to kill Christ who had never heard Gods voyce nor seen his shape nor had not Christs words abiding in them and to them he spoke that Scripture mentioned neither had I any such meaning but that the Saints and all sober people and all people might search the Scriptures though such a bad consequence they have drawn upon my words and saith it is a giddy assertion that hath dropped from me and yet himselfe is forced to confess what I spoke is true to wit that that Scripture in the fifth of Iohn was spoken to the unbelieving Jewes and not to the Saints and yet P. T. to confound himself confesses that I said the Epistles were given to the Saints and this is a contradiction from his own pen First to say that I asserted the Scriptures were given to the world and not to the Saints and yet saith I confesse the Epistles were given to the Saints which are some part of the Scriptures And whereas P. T. farther speaks questioning in himselfe how far I own the authority of the Scripuures and such like which shews his ignorance or his unbelief for I have and do here again speak plainly that we do own the authority of the Scriptures and we through patience and comfort of the Scriptures have had hope And they are able to make the man of God perfect through Faith and what Christ and the Apostles owned the Scriptures to be the same we do and neither more nor lesse And in this we are approved of God and let men judge what they will And whereas P. T. speaks something of Jesuites and saith he does not apprehend me to be of that measure of subtilty which is found among men of that brotherhood unlesse saith he I have more then an ordinary art of hiding my self c. To which I answer Jesuites I deny and all of that Fraternity and whatsoever savours of Popery yet am I hidden from people and what I am he knows not neither the world for from that wisdome am I hid neither can I manifest my self to that wisdom which is devillish knows not God nor the least of his sons and servants for in all those things of which we then discoursed the depth thereof could hardly be spoken of because of the darknesse of peoples understandings And especially concerning justification I was very sparing and could hardly freely declare my selfe yet what I spoke was a great satisfaction to many then present though the one half that I spoke is not truly related though so much as is related shall stand a sufficient witnesse for me and against them that oppose me and that my words and meaning wâ—â— honest This was the thing charged upon me That no man was further justified then he was sanctified Now my intent and meaning in this was honest and as about this particular much was spoken which now I do not recollect to repeat only P. T. hath hinted in short at things how they passed and my words shall be for ever witnessed That sanctification is a witnesse of justification no man can further know himself to be justified then he is sanctified nor justified then he is restored And had P. T. but laid down my full answers as I spoke them at that dispute there would have been no need to have written any thing in answer onely I do remember I did stand to manifest that the new Birth Sanctification and Justification was all agreeing in one and not one without another and that Christ wrought righteousnesse perfectly without us and also fulfilled rightenesse in all that believe and no man is justified by the one of these without the other and that hath not the other and they held the contrary and R. G. did publiquely affirme that a man was justified by Christ excluding the new birth and the work of sanctification which I denyed and must alwayes deny that any man who is not born again but is in the old nature and not sanctified but is in the pollutions of the world is justified by Christs righteousnesse neither can he in that state till he be born again and sanctified have any benefit or manifestation of justification by Christ and this all men shall witnesse though because of this I now may be fasly judged And though R. G. did openly testifie that Christ justified sinners as sinners yet say I all that are justified are justified through faith and faith doth purifie the heart as was largely spoken by
in you which Christ hath lightned you withal which light shines in your consciences and convinces you of your evil deeds it reproves you for vain words and ungodly speeches it will let you see what your hearts goes after and what your love goes out unto and if you love that it will lead you to Christ and he will be revealed in you to teach you and to give you the witness of peace and reconciliation with God the light is your eye by which you may see God it will lead you out of all idolatrous worships and works and from your false worships which is abomination to the Lord and you must be converted and changed into a new nature and you must put off the old man his works before you can worship God aright for he is worshipped in spirit and in truth onely and such the Lord is now seeking to worship him therefore cease from your Steeple-house-worship which is in the traditions of men and not in the spirit of the Lord and that worship must be confounded for its root is corrupted and its branches will wither and the breath of the Lord is kindled against it if you love the light of Christ and walke in it there is your teacher and if you hate it there is your condemnation The next day after the Dispute this was written and sent in a little time after to Draton and up and down that ways Richard Goodgrom FRiend hath not thy ignorance folly and wickedness towards me now appeared and is it not made manifest in the sight of many people And now thou maist cease to boast and also to back-bite for the time to come and no more secretly to surmise behind my back to the raising of unruly spirits against me so much as in thee was possible and hadst thou been more crafty and more subtle more mischief thou mightst have done but the innocent is delivered and thou art taken in the snare which thou laidst for another and false doctrine is proved to proceed forth of thy mouth and thou and thy company may be ashamed when you consider the managing of your worke against me who many times appeared immoderate in speaking many at once consusedly and also were unreasonable in not being satisfied with just answers but it shews your blindnesse and unbeliefe who cannot understand the truths of the Gospel of Christ but comends against them though in the end you are forced to confesse to them as was sufficiently witnessed that day of the Dispute and thou in particular who reproachedst me behind my back in divers places where I have heard of it by my friends whom thou judgedst had not been so jet they have discovered the naughtiness of thy heart both in the Country and in the City Thou hast given forth that I had preached false Doctrine and such like wicked reproachfull back-biting language behinde my backe not like a man faithfull to God and thy neighbour but one that hath surmised evill against the harmlesse and thou mayest remember all these things which thou objectest against who would have made a great matter of them against me yet are they sufficiently proved to the understanding of many honest people And if thou and thy company will be blinde it is because you harden your hearts against the truth and I am clear in the sight of the Lord and all shall know that have an eare to heare that what I professe preach and practice is the saving truths of Iesus Christ though they may be branded to be heresie by such as thee who may call light darknesse and darknesse light and put good for evill and evill or good at a convenient opportunity I may take in hand to prove that thou thy selfe hast held forth that which cannot be justified by the Scriptures but are condemned thereby Many things fell from thee in my hearing which I may object against and prove the contrary and I shall not goe behind thy backe as thou hast done to slander thee but I shall rest contented and wait the opportunity to lay open thy nakednesse and weaknesse in the sight of all people And whatsoever thou judgest The Scriptures the writings and the things written of is two things The one is the word of God but the other is not and this all sober men confesseth too Though thou jangle and twist about it with thy lame arguments to no purpose at all except to shew thy weakness and folly And also no man is justified by Christs righteousness untill he receive it and as he receives it and this thou shalt one day witnesse for though righteousness be in him sufficient to justifie yet by it art thou nor any man justified but in the receiving of it and dwelling in it and this shalt thou confess to be truth in the day of the Lord And in the mean time let me bear thy false censure in calling this heresie And also a man may be tempted to sin and there may be evill motions to him yet he not being overcome of the temptation not consenting to the motion of sin it is no sin unto him neither shall sin be imputed to him if he commit it not but he that commits sin though he profess never so much of justification yet for his sin shall he be condemned and this shalt thou witness in the day of Iudgement Also that there is a perfection attainable in this life even to be perfect and without sin in Christ Iesus and this I affirm to be the truth of the Gospel and that wherein the faith of Gods people standeth and though thou madest a twisting a wrangling against it yet it is too strong for thee and in thy wisdome and thy arguments is thy folly and thy weakness seen and truth stands over thee and thou canst not it nor me reprehend and also that some of the Scriptures was spoken to the world and not to the Saints this I also have sufficiently proved and thou art not able to detect it and all thy snarling in opposition to these things is confounded and thy arguments made without effect and all whose eyes are opened sees thee to be of too short a measure and of too weake a capacity to understand the deep things of God which is hidden from thine eye and them thou savourest not in that wisdome though thou hast the words yet thou art ignorant of the life and the life is in dominion over thee and to it must thou submit and lay down thy Crown and from thee am I hidden in that life and truth which I do possess And though I be as a deceiver yet am I true And though I be slandered and reproached and back-bited by thee yet it is for Christ Iesus sake and for his truths sake and not as an evill doer But friend learn more wisdome then to judge a man before thou hear him or to condemn the matter before thou hear the proof of it for by these things thou hast not gained a good report but God condemns thee for it men sees thy shame in it and the burthen of it one day shalt thou beare even then and all that own thee in these things And now thy spirit is tryed and it is found too light and cannot stand in judgement for it is unfavoury And though separate from the world in appearance yet is thy spirit of the world and reacheth not the knowledge of the things that are eternal but art imagining in thy minde not being guided by that Spirit which gave forth the Scriptures and so thy konwledge is naturall and cannot contain spirituall things Therefore friend come down to Gods witnesse in thee the light which shews thee sin and convinces thee of evill that light is thy teacher if thou love it and thy condemnation if thou hate it I have divers particulars against thee at a convenient season to manifest thy folly and weakness by them and what ever thou judge me I am a friend to thy soule E Burrough Richard Goodgroom held forth at the Dispute at Draton the 18. day of the 11. moneth 1657. HE said the Letter was the word and by Letter he said he meant the thing contained in the Scriptures And when I said I had the Letter in my hand meaning my Bible but not the thing signified he said but I had the thing signified and he said people were justified by Christ excluding the new birth and the work of sanctification and Christ justified sinners as sinners that is while sinners remaining in sin At Justice Fortescues house in the yeare 1656. he did deny that any was converted to God by a light within and then asked if it was not that same light which converted which gave the knowledge of God and they confessed yea and yet did deny that the light within converted to God though I shewed them that Scripture 2 Cor. 4. 6. which did confound the deceit At Uxbridge one time he said Christ needed not to have come to have judged the world for there was sin enough in the world to judge it before he came Then I asked if sinne judged the world and he answered yea and he said they were in the Covenant of God spoken of Nehem. 9. which turned the law of God behind their backs THE END
of God but Christ and the Apostles called the Scriptures the Word of God Ergo Now I denied and do yet that it can be proved that ever Christ and the Apostles called the Scriptures the Word of God and neither doth thy proofs now nor his then of the minor Proposition prove that the Scriptures viz. the writings were ever called the Word although it be true the Pharisees made the Word of God of no authority by their traditions but that Scripture doth not say that the Letter is the Word which thing he was to prove or else he said nothing to the purpose and as to the other Scripture 1 Thes. 1. 13. that will not prove that the Apostle called the Letter the Word for it was the Gospel which they received as the Word of God and not the Letter the Gospel is the Word of God not denied by me but sealed unto but the Gospel is not the Letter and writings but the Gospel is the thing written of and that is it which the Apostle means to be the Word of God for that is the Word which he preached to the Thessalonians and which they received and so thy arguments and proof of thy minor Position is denyed and so the major Position falls to the ground and by this nor any other argument can all you Priests of England prove the Letter of the Scriptures to be the Word of God which thing R. G. took in hand to prove but could not and would have cryed against it in me as a great deal of heresie for denying it but error is fallen upon his own head The next thing I note is in page 13. where thou would seem to cover over R. G. thou sayest his words were not That I had the thing signified in my hand when I had the Bible but that I had that which declares of it Now to justifie him in evil thou hast wronged me and the truth for he did say when I held up my Bible I had in my hand the thing therein signified upon this very occasion I holding up my Bible in my hand and saying to this very effect that that in my hand I had the thing which did signifie in words of such and such things but I had not the thing signified and R. G. made answer and said but I had the thing signified and this some can witness whereupon I made answer and said if it be so that I have the thing signified in my hand then I have God and Christ and the Saints and Heaven and Hell men and beasts and all things that here in is written of and then he saw the folly of his own argument I perceive And much more as upon this subject was said on both parties which I desire not much to recollect onely what I have said I can certainly remember and can justifie it and I must confess that P. T. in some things hath done pretty fairly though in other things he hath not done so And now as to the next thing charged against me in the relation being placed the second though it is the third That evil motions not consented to were not sin in the first private meeting I remember my words was laid down thus and so I owned them in the Dispute that temptations or motions unto evil are not sin to any man who doth not consent and obey to serve temptations or evil motions and they are not sin to the man except they be consented to by the man and this was proved in the example of Christ who was tempted of the devil and had motions to do evil yet did not consent nor commit sin for he resisted and overcome the Tempter and so the devils motions and temptations which were sin in themselves yet they were not sin to him and this proof then they could not deny neither can any sober or upright man and so in the dispute the thing was put to a farther question Thus but are not those motions which arise out of a mans own heart sin except they be consented to To which I was willing to speak something and to own the very truth and to justifie that there is a state wherein evil motions may arise out of a mans own heart which are sin in themselves and sin in the man yet not sin to the man if he doth not consent to them obey them and fulfil them and the Scripture doth prove it Rom. 7. where he saith it is no more I that 〈◊〉 but sin that dwelleth in me for in his mind he served the Da◠of God and with his mind did not consent to the motions of evil and sin and the sin was not his nor reckoned against him by the Lord because with his mind he consented not and this no upright man can deny and also I applied my self at that time for witness to the experience of sober people and Christians whether many times there had not been evil motions in their hearts presenting themselves to which they had not consented but the Lord had given them power over them to resist them and deny them and they were not overcome of them and whether ever they were accused and condemned for such motions which the Lord gave them power against or whether the rather they had not peace and joy in the Lord who had discovered to them and given them power over the evil which had presented it self And I also gave them that which I had witnessed concerning the thing as a testimony agreeing with the Scriptures to that particular and though the relation saith as if I spoke of my present state to be so but here in the hearers were mistaken if so they understood me for my present state is another then what it once was I bless the Lord I speak without boasting and my present state I did not then nor now shall declare for I am not known to the world nor desires to be as what my state is but this was my intent and is in these things my state was say I yea I believe from ten years old till many years after that many times I had evil motions arising in my own heart which sometime overcame me and sometime the Lord gave me to overcome them so that I consented not to them nor obeyed nor followed them and when they did overcome me and lead me aside then was I troubled and condemned of the Lord for they were reckoned to be my sins when I consented and many times the Lord gave me power over them and I consented not but resisted them and denied them and then had I great peace and joy in the Lord and no condemnation and this was my experience for some years together though my present state be mother condition of which I shall not speak as not being needful at this time and this is the truth which no sober Christian can deny It 's true we spent a little time in disputing upon those things but to little purpose as on their part for what I
consequences from such upright words But farther he goes on and hath transcribed more of my words as Christ Iesus the Son of God is the light and life of the world and hath inlightned all mankind that comes into the world with the true light c. Now saith he how doth these agree with mans state in the first Adam in transgression is a state of perfect enmity and death raigns in every man he is possessed with blindness and unbelief c. I say these do very well agree and they are both true for death raigns in every man and he is in unbelief and ignorance and in a state of perfect enmity against God as he is in the first Adam yet Christ hath lightned him and the light of Christ shines in darkness in him and the darkness comprehends it not he is inlightned that he may be changed from death to life and from ignorance to knowledge and though he walk in darkness and be in blindness and in a state of enmity it is because he doth not walk and believe in the light which Christ hath lightned him withal and in my words there is no disagreement nor contradiction the darkness is in his own mind who cannot comprehend the light nor the words that proceed from it Further he questions upon my words of having the witness in themselves of being restored again First whether none are restored again but such as have the witness in themselves I answer all that are restored again and doth believe hath the witness in themselves and none doth believe nor are restored but they have the witness of it Secondly he queries whether all are restored but some want the witness in themselves I answer All are not restored nor doth believe and such wants the witness in themselves that are not restored to God but them that are restored wants it not And again he queries whether the light which is in all is sufficient without any thing further of grace super-added to bring up every man to believe in Christ c I answer The light which every man is lightned withal by Christ is sufficient to bring up every man to believe in Christ that loves the light and walks in it and unto such is grace added and increased daily for as every man improves the measure of the gift of God so it is increased the light is increased grace is increased faith is increased but still the light of Christ in it self is sufficient Again from my words to wit the spirit is given to be the guide and rule of life to the children of God from whence he queries whether the spirit is so given to be the guide and rule of life to the Saints that they have no more need to attend upon the Scriptures I answer It is promised that the spirit shall lead into all truth and such doth own the Scriptures but not as their teacher for the anointing dwells in them and they need no man to teach them but as that anointing teacheth all things and they have no need of the Scripture to teach them for all the children of God are taught of God and needs not any other teacher nor needs not to say one to another know the Lord and yet all such doth own the Scriptures to be the testimony of that which they believe and have received Again from my words to wit the light of Christ in every one shall give testimony to the truth of what I spake unto which I do commend my self from this he queries can these be witnesses to me and of the truth in me who are ignorant of the life and power of the Creator c. who are following the counsel of their own hearts which are evil c I answer Yes the light of Christ in such shall judge one day and to it I commend my self and by it one day shall be approved though now the wicked hate the light yet doth it witness against them and for us that we are of God though its true they cannot judge between light and darkness between truth and error yet the light in them which shines in their darkness doth judge and put a difference and when the book of conscience is opened it shall justifie us and condemn our enemies Again he queries whether I make the Holy Ghost and the eternal Spirit two I answer no they are one neither do I seem to make them two it is want of knowledge in him who cannot understand but raiseth objections where there is no cause Again from my words this is acceptable and well-pleasing to God above all words and outward conformity c. from this he questions whether the doing the greater things of the Law is acceptable where the less are neglected I answer No for every tittle of the Law less and greater must be fulfilled by Christ in us in whom we are accepted and thus I have returned a few words to the consideration of people and particularly the people of Draton and the Country thereabouts to whom I direct my speech thus All ye people who are scattered as sheep without a Shepherd and knows not Christ the everlasting shepherd to lead you to rule you cease oh cease from all your teachers without you who are dumb shepherds which doth not gather you to God such are they that preach for hire and devine for money and that takes gifts and rewards for preaching who through covetousness by feigned words doth make merchandise of souls such do keep you always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth under their teachings your souls are starved under them and you perish for want of true knowledge and death raigns amongst you and many are in the broad way that leads to destruction but few in the strait way that leads to life and iniquity and wickedness abounds amongst you and like teachers like people for from the least of them even unto the greatest of them every one is given to covetousness Jer. 6. 13. great ignorance hath blinded your minds and great darkness is over your hearts and your teachers doth deceive you and they cause you to erre and you give your money for that which is not bread and your labour for that which doth not profit even as the people of Israel did so do you and in their transgressions do you walk and your teachers are in the steps of the Pharisees they are called of men Master as the Pharisees were they stand praying in the Synagogues and Temples as the Pharisees did and they have the chief seats in the Assemblies as the Pharisees had and they even shut the kingdom of heaven against men as the Pharisees did and will not enter in themselves nor suffer them that would cease from all your outward Priests and hearken to the voice of the Lord which breaks down that nature which is contrary to God and raiseth up the seed which is heir of Gods kingdom turns your minds to the light