men after their death to make Drations in their prayse aswell for the consolation and comforte of their parents as for to incitate and moue others vnto vertue by theire examples For that cause they doe rehearse their prowesses their vertues and valyauntnesse And to make an honest mention at sometime for to encourage others to bée vertuous Thucidides witnesseth that the custome to praise the dead did begin among the Greekes by Pericles who was the first that openly made an oration in the prayse of those which were dead in the warre of Peloponense Also among the Romaines Valerius Publicola was the first which after that manner praysed his companion Brutus as witnesseth Titus Liuius Afterwards that custome hath continued among the Gentiles Idolaters If our Priests would serue vs in that stead the thing would be more tollerable although the we haue the word of God sufficient inough for to merte moue vs vnto vertue honestie But they serue vs to none other ende but to ease and the greatest thoeues and vsurers are those vnto whom they doe the greatest honours and giue the greatest prayses and doe bury them with greatest magnificence But if any poore man doe bye that hath not readye money scant and with muche a doe shall hee haue one Priest sor to beare him companye nor one scant to ringe the lyttle bell Theophilus There is no doubt but the the auncient Christians bicause the some were come of the Iewes some of y panims haue yet hept many of the manners and customes that they vsed in their countryes the which yet neuerthelesse they haue chaunged into a better vse For the Iewes and Panims had many things which of theÌ„selues might be tollerable and to serue to some kinde of honestie and cluilitie if the supersticion and the foolish opinions had bene taken away In the auncient Churche when that any faythfull man was dead béeing constant in the fayth of Iesus Christ and that he made a goodly confession in his death they vsed to make a commemoration to the congregation for to incite and stirre vp others to such faithe and constantnesse and chiefely when he hath bene killed by the Tyrants and that he hath bene the true martir of Iesus Christ in the mids of his torments hath constantlye confessed the truthe and hath witnessed it by his death and sealed it by his bloude For that cause the Notaryes and Protonotaryes were constituted and appoynted who were charged to write truely and after the truth the Ecclesiasticull historyes the lyues and dooings of the holy Martirs true seruaunts of God for the edification of the Church and congregation for at certein times they made commemoration vnto the Congregation of the fayth and constantnesse of the Martirs for to comforte and for tesie the poore faythfull in the middes of the persecutions that they suffered for Iesus Christ to the ende that after the example of the Martirs they shoulde prepare themselues rather to dye valyantly for the witnesse of the truth then to renounce and forsake it And the Dration and Sermon that Saint Ambrose made for the Emperour Theodosius after that he was dead tended to none other ende And when the good auncient byshops praysed after that sorte the good seruants of God that had faithfully trauailed in his worke vyneyard they did go about no other thing by that meanes but to edifie the congregation with good examples euen as the holy prophets and Apostles haue described vnto vs the holy scriptures the liues and actes of holy men which haue bene called of God for to instruct and teach vs by their example This manner of doing was not altogether to be despised and it might be practised to ediflcation if sathan the enemie vnto all goodnesse had not altogether conuerted and turned it into superstition Idolatry and blasphemie as wee see and proue it dayely For from those beginninges the Prothonotaries are descended whome wée haue yet at this present time who keepe onelye the name without exercising the office For to what ende doe they serue vs Hillatius To hunt after and so laye wayte for benefyces What woulde you they shoulde doe woulde you haue them to wrytte and register the lyues of our Popes Cardinals Byshoppes Priests and Moonkes They will leaue the charge of that vnto the Lutheriaus whiche are their protonotaries for to describe and paint out the legend of such saints and Martyrs of Venus rather then of Iesus Christe For theyr lyfe and conuersation is so holy that they had rather that men woulde neuer speake of it and that the remembraunce thereoff shoulde bée altogether defaced and forgotten Yet I thincke that they rendered no greate thanckes vnto Platine who hathe wrytten so muche althoughe that he tourned the sayest side outwardes as nigh as hée coulde Theophilus Thys is yet the leaste faulte of the Prothonotaries But from that same fountayne is risen and sprong vp the errour of inuocation of Saints of feasts wanderings blessings relycks pilgrimages and all other Idolatry and supersticions which men do commit dayly about the Saints For wheras in the auncient Church men did but onely make mention of the lyfe faith and constantnesse of the Martirs and Saynts when the people assembled themselues in the Ecclesiasticall assemblyes without inuocating or praying to the Saynts but onely vnto God Afterwards in processe of time the supersticious and Idolatrous Christians haue made of the Saynts Gods and haue dedicated to them Feasts Temples Aultars and Chappell 's And haue begonne to sing Himnes and supersticious songs in their honour prayse after the same manner as the Panims and Idolaters did to their Binges and Emperours when they Caâ—onized them And are not content to preach their lyues and Legende as the auncients did but haue added vnto it fables and lyes and haue made to them Masses in such sort that for one supper of Iesus Christ we haue more then thrée hundreth nullyons of Masses all contrary and differinge the one from the other By that meanes the Prophecie the preaching of the worde of God the Supper of Iesus Christ Prayers and Ecclesiasticall assemblyes and the true commemoration of the Saints are altogether abolyshed in such sorte that there is nothing but that it is altogether peruerted and tourned into more greater superstition and Idolatry then euer it was among the Panims As much happened about the other faythful that dye which are not counted for Canomsed Saynts For as on the one side they are giuen to inuocat pray to the Saynts whom they beléeue to bée in Heauen Euen so on the other side they giue themselues to praye for the deade whom they thinke to haue yet neede of their prayers and good deedes for to helpe them and to prepare the waye to Heauen â—â— steede of the simple commemoration y they did in y auncient Chruch without vsing praiers for the health of their soules but
propound it vnto them when all other reason sayleth and to shutte their eares against the same to the ende they vnderstand it not Eusebius I came the more willingly bicause I thought my selfe better armed then I was yesterday and that I can fight better to day and to be reuenged haue more aduauntage vpon you For I was yesterdaye sodeinely taken and assayled béeing vnprouided neyther did I thincke that wée shoulde descende into such a fielde to fight or otherwise I would haue come more armed and better in order for to defende my selfe and to fight against you Hillarius Wée dyd thincke no more of it then you neyther were wée prepared nor armed for the same Eusebius I beléeue you well Wherefore I doe knowe nowe by experience that the same whiche is sayde of all you is true For it séemeth that you haue all the holye Scripture vppon your fingers endes and that you haue neuer studyed in any other thing of which I meruayled greatlye in hearinge you speake chyeslye Hillary which is none of the greatest studyentes in the worlde at the leastwise in the holy Scriptures For hee hath alwayes loued better to carry a Virgile or an Ouid in his sléeue then a Bible And yet neuerthelesse hée is nowe a Doctour as if he had passed Doctour in Sorbonne As for Theophilus I am not so much abashed For all his lyfe time hée hath bene very deuoute and hathe alwayes loued to reade in the Bible I am sorry for nothing but for this that hée is become a Lutherian and that hée is nowe so contrary vnto our Mother the holy Church For I would neuer haue thought that he would haue so fought agaynst the good fayth and the auncient lawe But I trust if God vouchsafe that howsoeuer armed you bée you shall not finde mée to daye so féeble as before nor you shall not fight wyth mée so muche at your ease although that you bée two against one yea almost all thrée For Thomas is so variable that I know not of which side hée will sticke too Thomas Yet I am not neuerthelesse a Lutherian but thincke my selfe to bée as good a Christian as thou arte Defende thy selfe valiauntly and thou shalt sée if I bée contrary vnto thée so that thou doe speake wyth reason It is very true that I cannot very much helpe and succour thée For thou doest well knowe that I am an ignoraunt man and that I haue not much studied neither in diuine nor yet humaine bookes but I alwayes followed the good fayth as others dyd sauing that I had sometime some doubt in my conscience and yet more now then euer I had séeing the differences which are in the Christianitie Hillarius But after that wée haue hearde Eusebius wee will giue thée place to expounde it as thou thy selfe hast required And therfore friende Eusebius enter now begin to fight for as far as I can perceiue thou comest not wyth false enseignes nor without hauinge thy harneyes bright But what booke is that thou holdest in thy hande Eusebius It is Eccius Hillarius When theu diddest name vnto mée that greate Captaine and maister Gunner of the papisticall armye thou wouldest make mee to tremble and quake if that I were fearefull But I comfort my selfe againe in one thinge that althoughe that it bee prouided wyth great Canons and Artillarye yet neuerthelesse it is euill prouided and furnished with pouder and shot and there bée no pellets for to make any great breach but accompt it as the Harquebuts which are onely charged wyth paper without hauinge either leade or stone wythin it which giue greate strokes for to make women and little children afrayde But they hurt no man neither doe they make the men of warre afraide nor it cannot pearce thorow their harneis Eusebius I will compell thée by and by to speake otherwyse and I wyll make thée to féele it better then thou winnest Hillarius I staye vppon nothing but that thou dooe put to the fire for to burne vppe and consume that fire of Purgatorye which wyll bée altogether put out and quenched if thou doe not let it In the meane time I wyll make my bulwarke and fortresse of Theophilus for to receiue the first blowes and I wyll not depart from the skirmish but when I shall sée myne aduauntage Neuerthelesse I wyll yet serue thée in stéede of a Trumpet for to make thoe to enter into battaile and to gyue the Allarume vnto thine aduersary Begin then to strike Eusebius Before wée enter any further in the combat I woulde gladly sith that you condenme the prayers and suffrages whiche the Churche both make for those that bée deade that you tell vnto mée howe it is possible that the Church coulde haue erred so long time in that matter and who hath bene the firste authoure and muentour of that errour and herefie syth that you so call it and after wardes I hope for my parte that I wyll proue you the contrarye by suche reasons and authorities that you shall bée constrayned to accuse your selues of errour and heresie and to retourne vnto the fayth of the holy Churche and to confesse that shee hath not taken the custome to praye for the deade of hir owne fantasie wythout beeinge well assured that God hath commaunded it by his woord and that Purgatory was well allowed by the same Theophilus If you had well considered and kepte in minde that whiche we haue already spoken off that is of the custome whiche hath bene amongest the Panims in their funerall Drations and praysinges and howe the auncient Church hath chaunged that manner of dooinge into a better vse You shoulde easely knowe what hathe bene the beginninge of the commemoration of the prayers and suffrages for the dead and that the custome of the auncient Fathers hath differed very muche yea and altogether contrary vnto that which is nowe in the Popish Church But bycause that the same hath bene alreadye intreated off amongest vs amply inoughe I wyll not reintreate nor rehearse it agayne But for to satisfie thy question which thou hast nowe propounded I wyll onely aduertise thée that those errours abuses and that superstitious remembraunce and full of blasphemyes such which we do now sée to be practised about the dead did take great force and were greatly multiplyed by Pope Pelagius who made an ordinaunce much dyffering and contrary vnto the custome of his predecessors and of the auncient Church After whom succéeded Gregory the greate who hath not amended and corrected the abuses errours but hath styll nourished augmented and increased them and hath bene the cause of many Idolatries and superstitions which haue brought great hurt and domage vnto Gods Church And least that you shoulde thincke that I speak without reason authoritie iudge a little of that which Nauclerus witnesseth that Gregory the third hath written vnto Boniface being Legate and Ambassadour into Almayne to wit whether that Christians maye offer for theire
woemen which followed Iesus Christe from Galile vntill he was buryed willinge to anointe him in his sepulchre dyd not thinke of his resurrection but did thinke to haue founde him dead as the Angells rebuked them saying why seeke yee the liuinge amonge the dead There is no doubte but that there was yet in them humayne affection towardes the bodye of Iesus Christe as wee haue towardes the dead But to the ende that wee maye haue no more neede to dispute muche of it wylt thou bee contented if I doe alledge vnto thee Augustine agaynste Augustine To whome haddest thou rather staye eyther vppon Saincte Augustine followinge the opinion of men wythout the Scripture and speakinge doubtfullye as vncerteyne or vnto hym and other auncient Doctours wyth the holy Scripture Eusebius I doe not thincke that Sainct Augustine would speake against himselfe nor the he hath bene contrary vnto the holy Scripture nor to the auncient Doctors Theophilus Thou canst not shewe vnto mee that hee hath affirmed the Purgatorye certeynlye But I will declare vnto thee places by the whiche hee hath altogether abolyshed it Marke howe hee hath put none other Purgatorye then the bloude of Iesus Christe hee sayth speakinge of Porphyras a Platonist that hee hath not knowen Iesus Christe to bee the begynninge thorowe whose incarnation wee are purged For hee shoulde haue then acknowledged a Purgatorye And in an other place hee sayth Wee haue then the bictorye in his name which hath taken mannes fleshe and hath liued without sinne to the ende that by hym beeiâ—ge the Priest and the sacrifice we are made the remyssion of sinnes That is to saye thorowe the medyatour of God and men the man Iesus Christe who in hys owne person hath purged our sinnes and restored be agayne vnto god For men are not seperated from God but thorowe sinne for which it lyeth not in vs thorowe our owne power and strength to purge them in this lyfe but therow the mercy God thorow his clemeney not thorowe our power For that vertue whiche is called ours whatsoeuer it bee it is graunted vnto vs thorowe his goodnesse Doth hee not cleerelye shewe that the purgation of sinnes is done in this lyfe and yet not thorowe our owne righteousnesse nor vertue Holve can it then bee done in the other lyfe thorowe the vertue and merytes of an other Furthermore hee manyfestly sayth the soules of the good men after they are seperated from the body are at rest and wee muste not doubt of it but those of the wicked are punished vntyll such time as the bodyes of those doe ryse againe to eternall lyfe and of these heere to eternall death whiche is called the seconde death But is it possible to speake more cleerelye and purely of Iesus Christe and of the Purgatorye that wee haue in him then when hee sayth Thorowe his death that is to saye by one onelye and true sacrifice which hath bene offered for vs hee hath purged abolythed and put out all that that had anye saultes in vs Wherefore the hygher power and those of authoritie doe bolde and keepe vs for to bee punyshed And by his resurrection hath called vnto a newe lyfe wee which were predestyned hee hath iustified those that hee called and glorified the iustified Beholde woords very cleere And speaking of the opinion of Plato he sayth Those which are of that opinion doe thincke that after that one is deud there is no other paines then of Purgatorye for to purge sinnes Alyttlo after hee sayth Wee confesse that in this mortall life there is a certeyne Purgatory paine It seemeth that hee somewhat agreeth that the tribulations and aduersities that man suffereth in this world do serue him for a purgation of his sinnes the which yet neuerthelesse they dare not to attribute but to Iesus Christ Although that we doe commonly say of him which hath had much euil griefe in this world the he hath had heere his Purgatory For that tasteth muche of the opinion of Plato But Sainct Augustin doth not make ther meÌ„tioÌ„ of any paineâ— of purgatoy after this life but he sayth playnely that the soules of the faythfull do rest after the deathe of the bodye But what wilt thou more cléerer then when hée sayeth Some doe beleeue that those also whiche haue not abandoned the name of Christ and which haue bene baptized in hys Church and haue not belie cutte off from the same thorow anye schisme or heresie that in whatsoeuer sinnes they haue lyued in the which they shall not deface and put away thorowe penaunce nor redeemed thorow doing of almes beedes but shall perseuer and continue in them continually vntill the last daye of their lyfe shall be saued thorow the fire Although that according to the greatnesse of theire sinnes and misdéedes that fire shall bée diuturnall but not eternall But mée thincketh that those that doe beléeue this and yet neuerthelesse are catholikes are deceyued thorowe mans beneuolence For the holy Scripture if one doe looke and search in it aunswereth an other thing Thou seest héere Eusebius that be speaketh of the fire of Purgatory whatsoeuer thinge he hath spoken at other time And sayth moreouer that there is but two wayes to wit one of dampnation and an other of saluation But marke well his owne words The fayth of the catholikes thorowe the diuine authoritie doth first beleeue that there is a kingdome of heauen Secondly that there is a hell in the which euerye apostate and straunger to the fayth of Christe is punyshed Wee are altogether ignoraunt of the thirde But wée doe not finde in the holy Scriptures that there is any It seemeth to mee that hée speaketh very cléerely and that those authorities ought to suffice thee against all that that thou canst alledge of the auncient Doctors in the fauour of Purgatory Yet neuerthelesse the better to vanquish and pull thée down I wil yet shew foorth vnto thee some sentences of the most auncient Doctoures Marke what Tertulian sayth It seemeth vnto euery one that is wise which haue heard somtime spoken of the fields Ehseus that it hath some locall determination which hath bene called Abrahams bosome for to receyue the soules of his children and that the same region or countrey is not celestiall but it is yet neuer the lesse more higher then hell in which the soules of the righteous doe rest vntyll such time as the consumation of the thinges restoreth the resurrection of all men thorowe perfect rewarde I doe not prayse that which Tertulian hath determyned of the place wythout witnesse of the Scripture but I thincke it a very daungerous thinge to define of suche thinges wythout wytnesse of the same and I had rather staio my selfe vpon the sentence of sainct Augustine which sayth that it shoulde bee very good that an vncerteyne thing of which not onely the Scriptures doe make no mention of it but doe speake the contrary that
then to reade in the holye Scriptures the which they dare not touch Or if they desire some time to drincke of it that is as the dogge doth at the floud Nilus They doe but sucke in the water hastely as though they were afrayde to touch it and that there were in it Crocodiles They wyll touch it as a Cat doth hotte coales I doe not condemne the reading of good Authours and of Poets Oratours and Philosophers the which may serue vs to the glorie of God if first of all we be well instructed in the Christian religion But I can not allowe but greatly condempne those whiche altogeather gyue themselues vnto suche Authours or to others a greate deale worse and make none accompte of the holy Bible and diuine bookes to which all other Sciences and disciplines ought to serue and to whiche they ought to be preferred Shall we not iudge him a foole out of his wyt which will alwayes staye in his Grammer and in the principles and rules of the same and despyse the studye of other liberall Artes and of Philosophie and wyll in no wyse meddle wyth them nor exercise himselfe in speakinge nor yet in writinge fearinge to forget and lose those rules and groundes of Grammer Who wyll not iudge such a man to bee madde sith that the Grammer yea the Rethoricke whatsoeuer prayse that Cicero giueth vnto it And the Logicke also are not but as handmaydens and seruauntes vnto other disciplines the whiche men doe learne for to serue vnto them Wée doe nowe mocke the barberous schole masters which wee haue had which coulde reade vnto vs but doctrinall of Alexander and doe holde vs therein all our lyfe time wythout letting vs at any time taste any good Authour insomuch that one shall neuer haue done but the thing is alwayes to beginne agayne Those some vnto me not to differ much from them For notwithstanding that they doe reade better Authours and that they doe exercise themselues to speake and wryte better Yet Neuerthelesse I esteeme not all that which they doe no more then the Grammer of Alexander or as Grecismus and Roiolis and the Logicke of Tartaret and of other Sophisters except they make all their skill and knowledge to the honour and glorye of GOD and if they mynde it vnto anye other marke or ende For otherwise whereto shall all their science and eloquence serue but to the Panims and people without God the which is more hurtfull and daungerous then profitable to the common wealth in hym which hath not the feare of God and which is not well instructed in the Christian doctrine And when they haue studyed all their lyfe time to beautifie and 〈◊〉 foorth theyr language I thincke yet neuerthelesse that a man shall not finde many amonge them which can come vnto such perfection by the which they may approch so néere vnto Gicero as that seditious Catiline who was very eloquent But when they doe surmount Demosthenes may not wee rightly â—ay that of them which Eschines hath sayd of him comparing him vnto a flute which hath but the beak of bil the which is vnprofitable after that the necke is cut off What is there also in these héere but the tongue The which oftentimes hurteth many and profiteth fewe Is not a poore labourer which knoweth his God and Iesus Christ his Sauiour and which confesseth him in his rude language and which honoureth him through his good life and conuersation to be preferred before all these greate Poets Orators and Philosophers who are altogether ignoraunt and which doe serue but the flesh the world and Sathan Prince of the same Are not they great Asses and beastes in comparison of him and yet worse For the Oxe knoweth his Lord and an Asse his Masters stall as sayth the Prophet the which those here which will bée counted for true Israelits Gods people and Christians wil not acknowledge nor serue hym dooing vnto him so much honour as the Oxe the Asse doe vnto their Masters How dare they esteeme themselues wyse beeing ignoraunt of the knowledge of God the which onely is the true knowledge for to bringe vs vnto euerlasting blessednesse in comparison of which all other which are called sciences are but mennes opinions errours and lyinges excepte they haue this for a guyde It is very harde to finde for such men mediciues proper to heale them and meate for to make them haue an appetite sith that they are so farre out of tast with the bread of lyfe and the heauenly Manna to the which they preferre the garlicke onyons the flesh and fishes of Aegypt For he that shall giue them such meate as they desire shall but encrease their griefe the greater And if the meate bée not as they woulde haue it they will not tast of it Wherefore I leaue such to bée handeled of those which haue more cunninge then I and which can better helpe their disease There are others which differ but a little from these héere and which care not so muche of the language but they haue yet a greate vice common with the first that is that they delite not in reading any good matter graue and whiche toucheth Gods woorde and the health of their soules but vnto worldly thinges delectable to the flesh pernicious and hurtfull to the spirite and conscience And therefore although that many good men haue written in French very learnedly and in a good language touching the matters of our Religion yet neuerthelesse that sorte of people cannot applye themselues to reade those good bookes and can take no taste of them bicause that their mouthe is not fitte for such meate and that they are to precious for them For the â—doriseraunt and sweete flowers smell not so swéete in the hogges noses as the myre and durte For that cause suche carnall men take more pleasure and delite in the bookes that speake their language But the thinge is more detestable to women whiche delite to reade â—ookes of bawdry and whoredome For they vnderstande them the better bycause they are of the earth and doe speake of earthlye matters and cannot comprehende the celestiall language bycause it is not naturall vnto them Nowe such bookes as they desire are not wanting vnto them For there are ynough of fooles bables throughout the worlâ—e which doe serue but for seoffing and testing and which haue no other care and applye their studie but to please men and to nourishe theyr vaine curiositie louinge better to speake pleasaunt thinges then salutary and to delyte the fleshe and the eares more then to edifie the conscience Yet thys was one of the causes whiche moued me to write and procéede after an other manner then those whiche haue written before mée For I consider that many doe leaue off to reade them not onely bicause it is forbidden in many Countreys kingedomes and Segmories to reade good bookes whiche speake of GOD
it in the month of February by y institution appointmeÌ„t of Numa Pompilius y second king of the Romaines Al the reason that moued Odillo procéeded but of ignoraunce for y he vnderstood not the cause whereof those gronings noise and feareful cryes which he hearde in Sicily about that mountaine did arise But imagined that it was the Diuels which haled and fore themselues by the haire sorrowing with great despite that they sawe thesoules goe out of paines and tormentes But his imagination hath brought no hurt to his couent nor to all the other Monkes and Priestes For that sanie day is the best faire that they haue all the yeare and a time in which they make haruest and vintage altogether with not taking ouermuch paines If the soules of the deceased haue as much gaine as they they may bée very ioyfull of the feast Thomas But I woulde gladly knowe from whence those cryes and mourninges did procéede whether they came from the Diuels or from the soules of the dampned or from those which are kept in Purgatory or of some other naturall cause Hillarius The cause is easie to bée knowne of him who wyll vnderstande what is the situation and nature of the place For of the one side is the roaringe of the Sea which maketh an horrible noise on the other side the greate goulfes of fire that arise and come out of the mounteyne Wherefore when the vehement â–ª windes doe blowe and enter violently into the holes and caues that are â–ª there and mingle themselues wyth those vaines of brimstone kindled with that impetous fire wée must not meruaile when all those thinges mixt and confused together doe méete if there are fearefull cryinges and such which the Poet hath described saying Loâ— here the hill that Aetna hight most horrible to beholde Thundring out and making cries most terrible to be tolde Which many times doth cast froÌ„ it of clowds that are ful darke And also vvhirle vvinds that are great vvith smoke that is ful black And burning sparkes of fire did fly and flames that are most great Which from the fire rose sodeinly and toucht the heauenly seat Which oftentimes doth vomit out the hovvels and the guts Of rockes and stones that are full hard which in that hil ther luâ—kes Thomas I doe then much doubte if it bée euen so as you saye but that the good Odillo was deceyued and that hée and all his Monkes haue greatly dreamed Hillarius They haue at the least so much dreamed and those which haue beléeued their dreames as they who stayinge themselues vppon the fables of Poets haue thought that Enseladus Briarnis and the other Gyauntes were buried vnder that great and burning hil of Aetna after that Iupiter destroyed them with lightning and ouerthrewe them vppon the mounteines that they had made for to ascend into heauen when they warred agaynst him For euen as they imagined that those fearefull and terrible Gyauntes were enclosed vnder that mounteyne who remouinge themselues from the one side to the other dyd cast and throwe foorth those great and daungerous â—â—â—tes flaminge fyers whoorlewindes and smoked Those héere doe put the Dyuels in sléeâ—e of the Gyants And doe attribute vnto them that which the mounteyne doth naturallye So as other dreamers and foâ—â—es haue done of the mounteine of Islande and Norwaye of which they that haue written of those Regyons Countryes doe wytnesse that they are almost like vnto that hyll Aetna and specially about the borders of Norwaye For they say that there is there a mounteyne commonly called Hechelbergo enuironed with the Sea the most horrible and fearefull that is in the worlde And for to make the tale better and the thing more meruaylous they saye also that there are hearde the cryinges wéepinges and lamentations of the soules which goe into Hell insomuche as those horrible cryes and noyse are spreade and heard a myle rounde aboute They adde moreouer that there are very great and meruaylous blacke Rauens Crowes which flye rounde about it makinge also horrible cryes in such sort that they terrefie euery man that none bareth to approche nighe vnto that mounteine Afterwards ther ariseth out of the same two fountaines whereof the one is of such vehement and excessiue coldenesse and the other of such heate that both of them are intollerable and there is no Element howe colde or hotte soeuer it bée but that they surmounte it both in heate and coldenesse And which is more in that same Countrey towardes the South partes as men saye there is a place called Nadhegrin in which the Dyuels of that place doe appeare vnto men whome they sée before their eyes hauing bodies of the ayre Thomas Odillo might haue had better occasion to haue situated Hell and Purgatory there then in the hyll Aetna Hillarius It woulde haue had better appearaunce if those thinges were true But if wée shoulde staye our selues vppon such dreames and lyes wée myght also forge an other Hell and Purgatory in Scotland in which men say that there is a hill full of sorrow very fearfull by reason of the cryes of those that do wéepe and lament there And in Thuringia there is a hill in which ther are heard most horrible noise cryes And y hath not onely the name to be frequeÌ„ted with Faunes Satyres which are a kinde of Diuels which many waies haue seduced y Panims But also some do affirme y they haue séene the same by experience And some writers Authours accoÌ„pted for men worthy of credite haue written it Thomas There should bée then many Helles and Purgatories by that accompt But bicause I feare very much that there are great follies and lyes in those histories I thincke that it shoulde bée most sure and expedient for mée to take that way which I first purposed then to take the way either in Sicily or in any of those places that you haue named vnto mée For the way is not much frequented nor knowne as that is which I haue taken vppon mée except you haue touched the one of the countries whether I would goe Hillarius Whether haue you then enterprised to goe Thomas I doe make mine accompt to goe straight into Scotland or into Ireland Hillarius Is there any way to descend into these infernall Regions and countries Thomas Haue you euer heard spoken of the voyage and Caues of Saint Patricke doe you not remember the bookes that we had at schoole when wée were little children Hillarius You make me now remember the saying of my Graundfather Were we not happy in those daies that we had such bookes in our handes in stéed of some good Authour and of the Bible and holy Scriptures If wée consider well the vnhappinesse and misery of that time and barberousnesse and ignoraunce both of God and all good discipline which then possessed all the worlde and compare it with the mercy which GOD at
and féeling it to soone and more then they would The elect and blessed who through Iesus Christ are delyuered study not to know any further then God hath reuealed vnto them that they haue felt it in their consciences when they haue offended and that they haue bene grieued and pressed downe with the féeling of their sinnes Hillarius What will you say if this Ghostly father be one of Pithagoras Disciples and of that same opinion and that the soule of euery one of them whom of late the Poets doe witnesse to be descended into hel were entered into his body insomuch that he was one of the very same Theophilus Wée might very well haue thought no lesse in hearing these dreames and lyes But that wée knewe for certein that the opinion of Pithagoras is false although that many among the Iewes are yet dronken therewith that the same which the Poets and Monkes haue inuented are nothing els but dreames and lyings But yet although our Monke were some Theseus Vlisses or Pithagoras yet he might very well be deceiued For sithence that those were in those regions and countryes the fire hath begun there to kindle which hath burned all the wals of those dyuerse habitations and infernall chambers forged made and builded first by the Poets and after wards by the Monkes and Priests insomuch that there remained neither Limbus patrum or yet Purgatory but Hell onely where that inextinguible fire is Thomas Yâ—u do speake of the Limbus patrum and of Purgatory as though ther were none that the same that hath bene preached vnto vs was inuented of pleasure that they were but fables But doth not the Scripture make mention of it do you thinke that so many good prechers which haue ben in times past would haue taught such things if they had not beâ— true Theophilus I haue heard many preach y the children y are borne dead all those which do die before tâ—ey be baptized go straight way vnto the Lymbus patrum wherein they haue their chambers aparte seperated from hell and Purgatory and that they shall neuer enter into Paradise but that they shall be depriued for euer from y ioyes theroff Afterwards there was nothing that I heard so much commended in the sermons as the soules of Purgatory vnto whom also they giue chambers apart and doe kéepe them as prisoners in those dungeons and prisons vntill such time as they haue payd their raunsome Eusebius Doe you not stedfastly beléeue that the same is true that ther is a Lymbe and a Purgatory Theophilus I would beléeue it without any doubt or contradiction if I had read it aswell in the olde and new testament as in the bookes of Plato and of Plutarch and such other which were of the same opinion Hillarius You ought yet to haue added amonge y Greeke Poets Orpheus and Homere and Virgile among the Latine Poets who haue so well described the Lymbe hell Purgatory and the Popes paradise that I thinke it is not possible to paynt and set them out better And I cannot beléeue but that he was inspired with the same spirite by which they haue spoken who haue forged and inuented vnto vs those Lymbes and Purgatoryes and with which those were inspired who did sit in the Councells in which such doctrine was allowed and confirmed peraduenture he may finde some thing in the discription of Virgile which may seeme a lyttle to differ from the Popes Theologie But notwithstanding if the matters are wel examined and tryed one cannot finde so great errours that for thein hée may be iudged an hereticke in the Popes church nor yet repugnance which is not more easie to agrée then to make Scotus and Thomas Aquinas to agrée together the Reals and Noâ—â—alls the Sophistes and Doctors questionaries that be among them But for to proue it giue eare what the Poet speaketh â—n such sort as I may speake in our propre tongue And for to begin in order I wil recite vntâ— thee first the â—escription of tâ—e â—â—mbeâ— â—here the children are saying Anone vvere voyces heard and piteous cryes and vvaylings shâ—â—ll Of soules of tender babes and infants vveeping voyde of skill That plesure svveet of life did neuer tast but from their brest Vntimely death them tooke and Fortune grim hath down opprest He giueth vnto the lyttle children their chamber apart and appoynteth their dwelling at the entring in of hell the which he describeth more horrible and fearefull saying Yet syts a vvorse vâ—ithin Than hell it selfe that sinke-hole sâ—eepe Tvvo times as broad desceÌ„ds tvvo times as headloÌ„g dovvn right deep As heauen vpright is hye if men thereto from thence might peepe Ouer and besides these two places he addeth yet two others to wéete Purgatory and the fieldes Eâ—seas of which we will speake off héereafter when his tourne commeth Now al these which are lodged in those diuers chambers are handled euery one of them according to their merites and punished after diuers sorts For the torments and paynes are giuen vnto them eyther more grieuâ—ns and cruel or els more tollerable gentle according to â—uery ones mirites and desertes He putteth and placeth a large prison déepe and darke horrible and fearefull in the most lowest part of hell from which those shall neuer depart which once haue bene throwne therein That prison is the very hell it selfe wherein the great and most grieuous sinnes and offences are punished and that they are â—â—sanable and can by no meanes be purged as these sacriledge murder tyranny vyolences erecrable whoredome and such other crimes and chiefely those of the Tyrants Kings Princes and Lords whom Plato of which proceeded this Philosophâ—e lodged all in hell if in sléede to be good Princes and Pastours they haue bene tyrants and the deuourers of the people Thomas I doe already héere perceiue a great agreeing with our Priests and Monkes As concerning the Lymbes of the lyttle children there is no more difference but that Virgile putteth them all there and our priests doe not lodge put but those which are dead without being baptized Hillarius He is not so rude and vngentle vnto them For he depriueth them not of all ioy and consolation as these our priests do the poore little children of the Christians Thomas As touching hell I doe not much mistyke the opinion of Plato First bicause it approcheth nigh to the veritie of the holy Scriptures and that he declareth the iust iudgement of God vppon the tyrants For it is good reason sith that there is none who may chastice correct them in this world and y they will not be in subiection neyther to God nor man but do what they list they should haue double punishment in the other world And that they should vomitte and spew vp agayne their great cruelties vyolences and great enormities that they haue committed bicause they feared neyther iustice nor punishment Theophilus Although that the witnesse
although y be be taken with the deed he wil excuse himself And as y shameles whore is not a shamed to deny y which we see with our eyes hanole with our hands As we haue an example in Came. Although that he killed his brother and y his handes were yet all blouddy and wette with the bloud that he â—ad shed it seemeth to heare him speake that God did vnto him greate miury and wronge in asking him where he is And therefore God would vanquishe the malyce and peruersitie of mans hearte and condemne it by the workes that are manifest for to declare vnto him and to make him confesse by the fruite that he is the roote aâ—d the tree to the ende that he may not glorify himself to be the Figge the O life tree when one doth emdently shewe vnto him the thornes thistles that it hath born And euen so euery creature is constrayned to acknowledge and confâ—sse that the iudgement of God is iust and that it consisteth in all truth and equitie Now the workes y men do for vs after that wee bee dead are not ours Wherefore wee cannot saye that they follow vs For it is another matter to bee in the way and iourney and to haue already ended his iourney and to be arriued at the port whylest that we are in the course of this present life he taketh vs as a sree which yet groweth the which one may dresse and proyne for to make him beare fruite But when he is once cut downe ther is no more hope he lieth wher lie falleth he must trauayle no more afterwards In like maner may we iudge of man Whilest y he is in the way that he is in his course sight one may aide him by admonitioÌ„s entreatings other morkes of charitie which we owe y one to y other whilst y we are herein the work of god for vs to helpe the one the other to obteine win the victory But after that he hath called vs from the worke in the which he hath set vs wée must attend and looke no more but for the rewarde and Crowne of righteousenes the which the righteous Iudge shall giue vnto vs as Sainct Paul hoped for himselfe as we haue fought for him the good fight and haue fulfilled our course and haue kept the faith vnto the ende On the contrary we must looke for feare confusion and eternall death as the slougthfull seruant vnfaithfull and vngrations we haue hid away and stollen the Talent away from our Maister without bringing vnto him any profit Therefore Sainct Iohn saith Bring foorth fruites worthy of repentance that is to say thorow which you shewe foorth that truely you repent you of your sinnes and that you haue amended your euill life For the are is put vnto the roote of the tree so that euery tree whiche bringeth not foorth good fuite is hewen downe and cast in to the fire Uppon that maâ—ter Sainct Augustine did writte vnto Macedonius after this manner There is no other place for to correct and amende manners then in this life For after this life euery one shall haue that that hee hath gotteÌ„ here And in another place he saith In this world the mercy of god helpeth those y repâ—t But in y world to come repeÌ„tance profiteth not but we must riÌ„der accompt of our works Liberty of repeÌ„tance is only giuen vnto vs in this life after y we be dead there is no more licrÌ„ce of correctioÌ„ Now is y time of mercy after wards shal be the time of iudgment And in expouÌ„ding those words of Iesus Christ Hee which beleeueth not is already iudged saith after this maÌ„ner The iugâ—eiâ—eÌ„t appereth not yet but y iudgemeÌ„t is already done For y Lord knoweth who are his He knoweth those which abyde looking farryng for the crown those which abyde looking for the fire Moreouer Sainct Iohn Chusostome speaketh more plainely confirming that which I haue said in such words Prepare and make reaby thy works for the end and prepare thy self to the way and if thou haste taken any thing by violence from anye man restore it againe and make restitution and say with Zachens if I haue taken from any man by forged cauilatioÌ„ I restore him foure fould If thou art angry with any man agree with him before that thou do come vnto iudgement dispatche here al things that without let thou mayst sée that Iudictall seate All the while that wee are here in this world we haue goodly hopes but assone as we shal be gone from thence it lyeth no more in oure power to doe penaunce nor to deface and put out our sinnes For after the end of our life there is no more occasion of merites no more then there is vnto those the play at prises games to obtaine crownes and rewardes after that the combat play and prises are finished and ended For he which in this present life hath not washed away his sinnes afterwards he shal finde no consolation For in hell as it is written who shall confesse thee That is to say who shall prayse thee in the graue And by good reason For this is the time of the Theators of Combals Playes and Prises But the shal be the time of the Crownes rewards and salaryes Also let vs not thinke when we shall be come thyther that we shall haue mercy which do nothing at all wherefore we ought to haue pardon No though Abraham Noe Iob and Daniell did pray for vs Whilest then wee haue time let vs prepare for our selues great trust and assurance towards god And Sainct Hierome saith no lesse confessing that in the other world And Sainct Ambrose is of the same opinion saying Dauid required that his sinnes might bee pardoned him before that he departed out of this life For he that shall not here in this life receaue forgiuenesse of his sinnes shal not haue it in the other he shall not haue it bicause he shall not haue the power to come and attaine to the eternal life For the forgiuenes of sinnes is the eternall life Therfore saith hee pardon mee O Lorde that I may bee comforted before that I goo and shall be no more And therefore I greatly meruatle of that papisticall doctrine which is so repugnant both to the holy scriptures and to the witnesse of the auncient Doctors of the Churche Sainct Cyprian hath written in the Sermon that he made of the immortalitie that the faithfull that do dye haue taken white robes and garments By which he meaneth that they are come to the beatitude and felicitie and feacheth that we muste wéepe no more for the dead Sith that they are alreadie in the estate of felicitie But me thinkes that the Priestes do not take them to bee assured of the eternall life whom they lodge in their Purgatory but that from Purgatory they may yet
with the bodyes of great Princes Wherein it appeareth wherevnto Sayncte Ambrose pretended For leste vs not thinke that he hath bene of an other mynde and opinion then the other Doctors which haue written both in his time before him And to this ende that you should the better knowe that I speake not so wythout reason gyue eare and marlie what other Doctors sayes which is contayned in the Decrées themselues and adioyned immediately after that which yon declared of Saynt Ambrose the which wyll serue vs for the declaration of the same and consormation of nsy worbes First you haue Saynt Gyprian who declareth vnto the Christians that they oughte not to bee sorrowfull and sadde neyther for their death nor yet for that of others saying Is it not a strainge and a peruerse thing to require that Gods wyll be done and that we doe not obey the same when he calleth vs out of this world but doe repugne and resist it and as peruerso and rebellyous seruaunts wée are brought before our Lorde with sorow and mourning and béeing colistrayned thorow the bonde of necessitie not willyngly and with a good hearte And we woulde bée honoured with heauenly rewardes by him vnto whome wée doe come maugre our selues And how many times is it reuealed vnto me and commaunded of GOD that I doe protest dayly and preath openly that we ought not to lament and mourne for our bretheren which are called and delyuered from this worlde by the Lorde sith that we know that they are not lost but are onely sent before going for to ouer goe vs euen as those doe who doe walke and swimme Vnto this also agreeth Saynt Iohn Chrisostome who in many places hath rebuked and coereted the immoderate mourninge of the Christians saying amonge other thinges I doe not forbid that we should not mourne for those which are departed out of this worlde Lette vs lament and bewayle them but not undecently and unhonestly not in tearing our haires uncouering of our armes cutting our eyes not in wearyng blacke gownes but onely in our hearte sheading foorth inwardely bytter teares Also lice doth cleerelye shewe that to lament and mourne for the deade proceeded but of wealtenesse and for wante of fayth saying In whatsoeuer place wée bee buryed in the earthe is the Lords and all things that therem is That that hée oughte to doe doth But to lament mourne and wéepe for those which are departed out of this lyfe commeth of weaknesse and for want of heart and courage And it must not be vnderstanded that it procéedeth from any other thing then of a despayre of the resurrection to come Therefore the Apostle spade not simply we would not haue you ignoraunt concerning them that are fallen a sléepe that ye sorrow not but he addeth moreouer as other doe which haue no hope It is not then forbidden vs to mourne and bewayle the deade through a compassion and affection of pietie and a regarde of humanitie as wée doe reade that some Saynts and holy men haue bewailed after Gods lawe the funeralls of others Therefore Anastacius in the same place hath sayd Those which know not nor looke for any other life haue no trust the from this world there is a place for to go vnto a better estate haue peraduenture iust excuse of their long griefe and sorrowe But we which doe beléeue and teach the same ought not to be sorry for those which dye to the ende that the same which towards other hath appearaunce of pietie and compassion be in the greater fault For that is a kinde of distrust agaynst that that euery one doth preach And immediately after is alleadged the example of Iesus Christ who bewailed not the death of Lazarus but bewailed him when he would rayse him agayne for to retourne vnto the miseryes of this world Hillarius Certeynly if we did well consider the euills which are in this miserable world and the fragilytic and misery of mans nature and if we had true sayth to the Gospell of Iesus Christ and true hope of our resurrection and of the eternall lyfe we shoulde haue more occasion to follow the custome of the Thracians then of other Danims and for a more iust occasion For if they which had not a certeyne hope nor assurance that there is an other lyfe then this héere dyd bury their friends that were dead with ioy gladnes saying that they wer bery glad that thei were deliuered from the euils and wickednesse of of this lyfe And on the contrary did wéepe and lament at the birth of their children lamenting them bicause of the euills to the which they did nâ—â— comminge into this worlde Haue not wée more 〈◊〉 cause to reioyce when that the Lord calleth us our friendes and draweth them from that darke prison for to lodge them in his celestiall Places And to desire with the holy Apostle to be dissouled so to be with Christ If we wil not followe the doctrine and examples of the holy Scriptures at the leastwise let vs not doe worse then the Panims And if we will follow them let vs follow the most reasonable and not the most maddest those of Mirsellea in the time that they were yet Panims we a great deale more modest and sober and lesse supersticious and Idolaters in their burialls and about their dead then those are now at this present time which doe follow the papisticall doctrine For the auncient massilians did bury their dead without great sorrow and lamentation The sorrow and mourning of their furenalls continued but one day without adding too any other ceremony but a domestical sacrifice and in making a banket not for the Priests but for their parents and friends But now I warrant you that the Priests will not acquite them for the price Beholde what they haue gained with the papistical doctrine which hath lesse reason then the costomes of their auncient predecessors although that they were Idolaters Wherefore it should séeme vnto them yet more honest a great deale more profitable to bring again in vse their auncient fashions maners then to follow the papistical maners But amongst others they can not finde better nor more necessary to all Christians then that which they had of late to shut the gates of their towne agaynst all Hipocrites Cagots Caphards Seducers who vnder the shadow tytle of holy Religion would lyue idelly and cate and deuoure other mens substaunce without doing any thing Their gate was not opened to such gluttons belly gods they would not admit any Religion new supersticion If the Christians had done so the world not haue ben so spoyled and deuoured by the Priestes Poonkes and caphards But for to returne vnto mourning In the manner also Seneca hath written that the auncient Romaynes haue not pressed nor determined any certeyne time vnto for to weepe and lament bicause it hath no honestie for as the himselfe witnesseth
water or W any thing that one can do to it Therfore it was called inextinguible Hillarius It must be if that be true that it wae artyffcially made or else by magycall Arte. But I thinke that they woulde make as greate an accompt if they had such fire as that same which the Greeks kept in the Temple of Apollo in Arges the which they dyd saye sell from keauen I demaunde of thée friende Theophilus what thinckest thou hathe bene the first cause of that Idolatry Theophilus I cannot perceyue that they haue any other cause but the same whiche hath ingendered all the other Gods amonge the Panyms which haue delfied and called Gods all the creatures of whome men dooe féele ayde and helpe Seeinge then the great poritie whiche is in the fire and the greate vitlytie that men dyd receyue thereby and howe necessarye it was vnto mans lyfe and howe it represented the fires and celestiall lyghfes of the sunne and of other planets and starres whome mey haue also â—olden for Gods bycause of their greate beautie and vtilytie they dyd in lyke manner thincke that they had iust occasion to holde and take the fire for a God whiche they dyd sée to bée of one selfe nature wyth the celestiall fire whiche alwayes moueth and gyueth lyfe vnto all thinges as the soule of them They had yet certeine other occasions in that that the holye Scripture oftentimes compareth God to the fire and calleth hym a consuminge fire and that God appeareth sometime in the lykenesse of fire and that the fire came downe from heauen oftentymes for to consume the sacryfices of the holye Patriarches and Prophetes They had more iust occasion to confirme themselues in that opinion and more goodlyer appearaunce for to allow their religion then the Papistes haue for their Images and Idolls For wée cannot denye but that the fire is a lyuelye Image of God which sheweth foorth and reprosenteth vnto vs it selfe more lyuely then all the Idolls which euer were in the worlde And therefore God woulde appeare in the lykenesse of fire and represent hys gyftes and graces his vertue and power by the same the which he woulde neuer dooe by Idolls and Images and woulde neuer appeare in them nor speake nor doe any vertue or myracles by them but hath lefte the same for the Dyuell who is serued wyth such instrumentes the whiche God hath altogether reiected and cursed and hathe defamed them by defamed tytles calling them filthynesse vanytie lying nothing abhomination and other like names which oftentimes are rehearsed in the bookes of the Prophets Furthermore had not the Chaldeans and Persians good occasion to preferre it aboue all the other For sith that all the other were either of wood and of slone or of golde silver or other mettalles he did melte burne and consume all insomuch that there was not one whiche coulde resist him Hillarius Xerxes hing of Persia declared it very well vnto the Greekes when hée came into Greece wyth so great an army For hée burned all the Temples Idolles and Images of Asia except the same of Diana the Goddesse of the Ephesians bicause of the excellent beautie of the same and for the cunning buylding which was therein that it was compted among the seauen moste chiefest workes which was in the worlde which for their admirable and excessiue beautie building and cunning were called the seauen miracles of the worlde Thomas Wherefore did Xerxes the same Hillarius Bicause that the Persians had no Temples nor Images and dyd thincke that one dyd greate iniurye vnto the maiestie of God which is infinite to chutte and limite him by the worke made with mans hande In lyke manner Plutarch doth write that the Romaines haue bad their Temples wythout Images after that the citie was builded 170. yeares bicause that they were taught by the king Numa that God was an inuisible spirite which neuer was created And notwithstanding that they doe honour the fire vnder the name of the Goddesse Vesta yet neuerthelesse they neuer made Image for to represent the one nor the other but were content to kéepe that holy fire as hath bene sayde and as it appeareth by the witnesse of Ouid saying Within the Temple fire remaind and still vnquencht did lye The fire and Vesta wanted forme to shew their shapes thereby And a little afterwards he sayth By Arte of Syracusia framd there hangeth in the aire A little globe that represents the forme of heauens faire Thomas If the Persians did take the for God they did not altogether without reason if they would not haue locked shut him vp For he doth open the gates although that one would shut him vp knoweth to go out euery way Hillarius The experience hath bene well shewed in the Temple of Diana the Ephesian For notwythstandinge that Xerxes spared it yet neuerthelesse his GOD woulde not spare it thorowe whose ayde Herostratus dyd bringe it to passe who dyd set it on fire and bourned it altogether Thomas Wherefore dyd hée that Hillarius Hée hath confessed hymselfe that hée dyd it for couetousnesse of renowne to that ende that men should speake of hym For hée neuer dyd any vertuous acte whereby hée myght gette a name And therefore hée tooke vppon him to doe such an acte to the ende that the remembraunce of his name shoulde bée eternall amougest men Theophilus Herostratus dyd let the Ephesians well to vnderstande that the fire had more vertue then their Diana Hillarius Thou vnderstandest not the cause and howe the Panims dyd excuse the Goddesse Thou oughtest to vnderstande that the verye same night that Herostratus dyd sette the Temple of Diana on fire Olympias the mother of greate Alexander was in hauayle wyth child bicause that Diana was gone thether for to helpe hir trauaile to bringe foorth Alexander shée coulde not defende hir Temple For thou doest very well know that woemen dyd call vppon hir in their trauayle And therefore shée béeinge absent and busied aboute Olympias and hir sonne Alexander shée coulde not helpe hir Temple nor resist the God of the Persians no more then the Gods of our Priestes can at this daye resist it For that cause the Chaldeans dyd meruaylously beast themselues against all other Patyons sayinge that there were none that had suche a God as theirs which consumeth all other Yet neuerthelesss if the tale or historye bée true whiche Suidas dyd tell of a Prieste of Canopus hée played or shewed them a fine feate of whome hée hath written that the Priest of god Canopus which was adored and worshipped of some in Aegypt seeing the arrogancie and pride of the Chaldeans fearing also to loose his good théere and fare if the maiesty of his God were diminished deuised this crafte and discepte In Aegypt they vsed to make waterpottes of earth hauing many holes for to distill the water and to make it more pure bicause that
this custome that in the prayers of the Priestes which they doe make vnto God at his aulter the recommendation of the soules hath also his place And did not Monica the Mother of Sainct Augustine require that they should make remembraunce of hir in the sacrament of the aulter For that cause hath Sainct Gregory written that the soules of the dead are deliuered in scure manners and sorts either by the oblations of the Priestes or by the prayers of the Sainctes or by the aimes of their friendes or by the fastinges of their parents I doe not thincke that these two learned men would haue written suche thinges wythout hauinge foundation of the holye Scriptures And it is not lyke that the Church hath kept that custome so longe time but that shée was well assured that it came from the Apostles and afterwardes was augmented and ordayned by Origene as witnesseth Isidore for from the tyme of Sainct Denis and Tertulian who were next vnto the Apostles they made prayers sacrifyces and oblations for the dead For Sainct Denis maketh expresse mention of the prayer which the Bishop made for the dead that God woulde pardon him all that that hée myght haue committed through mans infirmitie and that he woulde place him in lyght and in the region and countrey of the liuinge and in the bosome of Abraham 〈◊〉 and Iacob It is in lyke manner written in Tertulian wee doe make yéerely one daye â—â—oblation for the dead I haue declared vnto thée many witnesses and of great authoritie I haue alledged vnto thee the custome of the auncient Church which is a witnesse which is worth a thousande I haue alledged vnto thée the practise of the auncient Doctors They doe sufficiently declare both they haue vsed and chiefely Sainct Augustine who â—â—â—â—â—festly witnesseth that the same was ordeyned of the authors which the vniuersall Church kéepeth that is no say that for those which are dead in the communion of the body and bloud of Christ when one maketh remembraunce of them in their place in the sinne very socrifice that one ought to maye and make remembraunce that one doe also offer that sacrifice for them Wherefore he sayth that we must not omit the supplication the which the Church hath taken in charge to doo for the spirites and soules of all the dead which are departed in the Christian society and company Theophilus I thinke that thou hast very strongly dysplayed and set foorth the principall weapons that thou canst finde for to defende thy quarrell and that if I haue once satisfied those obiections I beleeue that the matter shall bée ended as soone as hée toucheth the witnesse and authoritie of the auncient fathers As touching Sainct Denis and the authour of that booke of the celestiall and ecclesiasticall Hieratchies I haue already ready tolde thée what it was For who knoweth not that that booke of the celestiall Hierarchia is more worthy to be some dreamer then of Sainct Denis the Disciple of Sainct Paul For it hée had written eyther of the Angels or of the order of the Church hée had woulde rather haue followed Sainct Paule his Master then the dreames of his owne head and hée woulde not haue spoken of such matters otherwise then hée in his Epistles If thou doe diligently reade that booke of Denis whatsoeuer it bée thou shalt there finde that the prayers which are made at the burials are made for those that bée aliue and not for the dead And doth confirme that which wée haue already spoken off of the manner whiche the auncientes had to prayse the dead Wherefore it shoulde not bée néedefull to reiterate that whiche alreadye hath bene opened before if thou wouldest vnderstande that which one telleth thée But wee are alwayes to beginne wyth thée I haue already sufficiently declared vnto thee from what originall and beginninge the commemoration which is done for the dead in the Church came firste and what hath bene the custome of the auncient fathers the which was altogether contrary from that whiche is nowe in the Popish Church Wherefore that whiche thouhast alledged of Denis and Tertulian doth confirme my matter as I wyll proue vnto thee by Cyprian that holy Martyr who hath read and well vnderderstanded Tertulian if euer man dyd vnderstand him For hee had him in such reputation that hee dyd call him no otherwyse but the Master thorowe his great excellentnesse Insomuch that when hée woulde reade in hys bookes he sayde alwayes bringe mée the master And the better to declare the pleasure that hée dyd take in readinge him and the fruite that one myght therein learne receiue they saye that hee laide it at nyght when hée went to bed vnder vys pillolue that hee nyght haue it alwayes ready at hande when hee woulde occupye and looke in it as the auncient historyes doe also wytnesse that Alexander the great dyd myth the bookes of Homere For hée giueth vs sufficiently to vnderstande that the commemoration and the oblations which are done for the dead in that auncient Churche were none other thinges then the prayses and giuinge of thankes which the faythfull did render vnto God for the mercy that he did vnto their bretheren whome hée hath called from this world with the other thinges whiche haue bene already spoken off which are yet done at this daye in some places in Almaigne after the auncienâ— manner But they doe call commonly the oblation and sacryfice the diuine seruice and that which they dyd in theire assembles in which they did obserue chiefly foure things The first was the prophecie and preaching of the worde of god After the prayers Afterwards the supper and last of all the gatherings and almos for the poore And they did call that oblation and sacrifice not that they dyd vnderstand and meane to offer and sacrifice Iesus Christe as the Priests say that they doe in their Masse But bicause that the Bishop and Pastor of the church and al the Christian people did come to offer present themselues vnto god did offer vnto hym their orisons giuing of thanks which are y true sacrifice of praise And their almes in like manner for to coÌ„fort y poore people of Iesus Christ They are those which the Apostle calleth offerings agreeable vnto god And they did make coÌ„memoration of the death passion of Iesus Christ in celebrating the holy supper Wherfore we must not thinke y they did make prayers offerings for the dead to the ende they should be deliuered frdiâ— the paines of Purgatory as hath bene done in our time But the praiers were the prayses and thanks that they rendered vnto God and exhortations and admonitions which they dyd make by his word vnto those that bée liuinge The offeringes were of the almes that the faythfull dyd bring for to succour helpe the poore which were liuing And therefore long time amonge the auncientes that diuine soâ—â—ke that they
as wée do driue out a pinne with one other pinne But they were not muche profitable vnto the Church Theophilus After that manner came the custome to make commemoration of the dead in the ecclesiasticall assembles and in the celebration of the supper ouer and beside the causes before alledged And afterwardes by little and little the superstition hath begun and is augmented vnto this which we doe now sée it We haue no example in all the holy Scripture that the Apostles haue done any thing of this About the time of Tertulian and of Cyprian there was no question neither of Purgatory nor of prayers nor offeringes for to delyuer the soules but such which wée haue séene About the tyme of Ambrose and Augustine the superstition dyd beginne very much to take roote and to increase insomuch that in stéede of simple commemorations giuinge of thanckes and exhortations which they made in celebratinge the memory of the dead they had already begunne to dyspute that the prayers dyd profite them and that the question of Purgatorye was alreadye begunne to bée sturred vp For it is very easie for men yea the most sage and wysest to fall into superstition bicause that it is naturall vnto vs and chiefely about the dead by reason of an affection and loue that wée doe beare vnto our parentes and friendes whome wée cannot forget although they be absent from vs but wée doe abide and continue alwayes affectioned towardes them as though we might greatly ayde them yea many tymes more after they bée dead then before when they were alyue From thence it commeth that we are so much inclined to inuent and receiue euery thing that wee thincke maye serue them And althoughe in déede it serueth them to no ende yet neuerthelesse wée cannot refraine our selues bycause that wée thinke that wée doe féele comforte and satysfaction to our affection iudgeinge the affection of the dead after our owne our dealinges is fowardes them as towardes god What is the originall and begynninge of all Idolatry but our foolishe fantasse and affection by the which wée doe measure God thinkinge that hée taketh pleasure to that that pleaseth vs Wherefore wée serue him not after his wyll but after ours For in makinge feastes in reposinge our selues béeinge apparayled with goodly robes and gownes makinge greate chéere hearinge goodly singinges and melodyes walkinge about and passinge the time in goinge a procession wâ—e thincke that wee doe serue God well But what seruice doe wâ—e vnto him Doe we not rather serue our selues and our affections making vnto vs a God altogether like vnto our selues deliting our selues in the like vanities As much is happened vnto vs aboute the dead Hillarius When a man is angry yet it doth him much good to reuenge himselfe vpon some one for to make hym passe away his sorrow and anger although hée do receiue no great profit Euen so when a man is in sorrowe and beauines for the death of his friend hée muste haue some solace and comfort for to comfort his sorrow heauinesse And thereoff it came that the woman that loueth well hir husbande or the mother hir childe oftentymes cannot refrayne to kisse them after that they shal be dead or to embrace them some time with more greater affection then euer she dyd during the tyme that he lyued But wheretoo profiteth all that eyther to the quick or dead Thomas Nothing at all Hillarius And yet neuerthelesse y doth great good vnto hir that doth it and shâ—e is so affectioned Theophilus Of such affection came in like manner the beginning to make Images as it shewed vnto vs in the booke of wisdome yea almost the beginning of all Idolatry as all y auncient Fathers do witnes especially Lactantius Eusebius For the men for the affection that they did beare vnto the dead to comfort the sorrow that they had to remember them and besides to honour them they made Images and set vppe sumptuous Sepulcres in their honour Afterwardes they began to buyld Temples and Chappels hard by their graues and to set therein their Images Afterwardes in successe of time all was conuerted and chaunged into great superstition and Iâ—olatry And euen as it begun among the Panims so is it entred among the Christians by occasion of the Sepulcres of the Martirs For they haue begunne to make there their Ecclesiasticall assemblies to go thither to watch and pray vnto God and to celebrate the supper Afterwarde they haue builded Chappels and Temples and haue ordeyned Annuall feastes And after that those foundations were once sette vppe which was yet some thing tollerable the thinge was afterwardes peruerted Insomuche that in stéede of the Candles that they caryed for to watch all the night they began to offer them to the Saincts and to their Images In steede of the prayers y were made vnto god they haue begun to addresse direct theÌ„ vnto them In stâ—ede of that supper y they celebrated in y name of y death passioÌ„ of Iesus Christ they haue also begun to adoe the â—ememoration of y Saynts Sayntes And theroff came that Commemorantes which is in y Eauen of the Masse in which they doe make â—â—pâ—â—sse remeÌ„brance of some Saints Saintâ—s And afterwards by little little in stâ—ede of y simple coÌ„mmoration which is done of y Saincts Sanctes they haue begun to giue vnto euery one of 〈◊〉 his Masse al whelly insomuch y there is neither Saynt nor Sayntes but hath one that they do cal vpon it in steed of God vnto whom y Priests haue not giuen some occupacion office for to helpe aide God in so many affaires And after y sathan hath so well augmented his stuffe vnder y title of Martyrs of their CeÌ„memorations to y ende y nothing should remaine but y it should be ful of â—dolatry superstition he hath also louÌ„d y meanes to make mé muse after y are dead after an other manner For to make them al to be worshiped as Saincts he could not Also he knew very wel y after the damned men wil not much traualic nor bestowe any cost And therfore he hath sound a third order Hillarius There doth lacke but one but y ther should be as many as of y orders of the beggers But they haue it already For y Limbe is for y fourth order Theophilus Therfore hath he begunne in a luckey howre ye a sithens y time of Augustin to forge the Purgatory although y theÌ„ it was not receiued nor allowed as an article of faith but they disputed only as of an opinion which hath some colour shew For although y S. Augustin moued y questioÌ„ touched some thing y matter yet neuerthelesse he hath determined or concluded nothing for certein but rather to y contrary He hath writteÌ„ y ther were some which did thinke that there was a certeine fire of
Purgatory that the thing was not incredible But yet neuerthelesse he â—urst not affirme it but spake of it as of a thing doubtsull and incertein notwithstanding that hee â—â—emeth to bee of an opinion that the prayers made for the dead did profit them But when all shal be well considered what witnes or what example doth hee alledge out of the holy Scripture either of the olde or new testament sufficient for to proue and confirme that doctrine Iâ— he shewe foorth vnto me y custome of the auÌ„cient Church the traditions of the Apostles I will demaunde vpon the same the witnes or example of the holy scripture or of the primitiue Church For I am certeine he shall not finde it It is then necessary that we do come to the next age as was the time of Tertulian Ireneus and other like and afterwards from thence vnto the same of Cyprian For I haue already proued by their writings that in those times they did not make such prayers for the dead as they were after the time of Sainct Augustin For they did them not to the intent to helpe succour the dead but they directed them vnto God only for to giue him prayse for to demaund his grace mercy towards the lyuing euen as then the Commemorations of the Martyrs wâ—ich were done about their Sepuleres to the glory of God consolation of the liuing haue bâ—ne conuerted chaunged to y inuocation of saincts they haue made Idols of theÌ„ so the coÌ„memoration which is done of other that be dead hath bene chaunged into meritorious prayers for to draw thé from paine successiuely sithency that one hath learned the custom to make a certein remeÌ„brance mention in y ecclesiastical assibles thei came afterward to y point to make y coÌ„memoration in y supper for to witnes y they held theÌ„ of whoÌ„ in y same they made remeÌ„brance for true faithful catholicke of y coÌ„munion of saints which in y supper is represâ—tâ—d 〈◊〉 y same manner ought we to vnderstád y which S. Augustin hath writté of y remeÌ„brance which they celebrated for y dead in the sacrifice of y aulter of a mediator by which we ought not to vnderstaÌ„d a sacrifice in which Iesus christ our only mediator is offred to god his â—ather for y rediption of our souls as he was offred vpoÌ„ y trâ—e of y crosse after y manner as y priests do glory boast theÌ„selues at this present time to offer in their Masse according to y witnes of their Canon For there is but one such Sacrifice the whiche Iesus hath once offered which of none other can be done but of him alone who is the Priesse and euerlasting bishop after the order of Melchizedec if we wil not be lye the holy Ghost who spake by the mouth of the holy Apostle Thomas Of what Sacrifice then doth Sainct Augustine speake off Theophilus Thou oughtest to vnderstand that there bee two sortes of Sacrifices whiche doe comprehend all y other The first is y sacrifice of reconciliation redemption for to deliuer the sinners from the yre and wrath of God But this apperteyneth but to Iesus Christ alone of whom y Leuiticall sacrifices wer but a shadow and figure The other is y sacrifice of praise thanks giuing by which we may comprehend al y workes of the faithfull by which they do prayse God and doe trauiale to be ioyned vnto him As Sainct Augustine doth expounde it Now forasmuche as the sacrament of the holye supper of our Lord is one of the principall things that the church hath for to glorifie God rightly it was called by the auncients sacrifice as not long agoe hath bene touched not by reason that Iesus Christe is offred vnto God by vs But bicause that he offreth himselfe vnto vs and that thorow faith we receiue it and render vnto him it ankes for the greate benefit that he hath done for vs giuing himselfe to the death for vs and we confesse and protest that wee doe not take nor holde anye other for a sauiour then hée onely nor we accept any mans sacrifice but his For that cause hath the supper in like manner bene called Eucharistia by the Greeks The which word signifieth giuing of thankes After the same manner haue Sainct Augustine and other anncient Doctors of the Churche vnderstanded it And they vnderstand not by the aulter any other thinge but the table vpon which y Church hath vsed to celebrate the supper making allusion vnto the aulters of the auncient law and haue regarde to that sacrifice of thankes gyung which in the supper is offred vnto god by his church Behold the estate which was in the Church touching that poynt in the tyme of Sainct Augustine which was about foure hundreth yeares after the death and passion of Iesus Christ in which the church dyd begin then very much to degenerate and to be corrupted For after that one once had begonne to myngle the commemoration of the dead with that of Iesus Christe for which onely the supper is celebrated not for sinfull men who haue not redemed vs by their death from one opinion and error it is fallen into another in suche sorte that men are fallen into such dreamingâ— that they haue thought that y supper to the which those that were a lyue dyd coÌ„municate dyd profyt the dead and that they might take it for them and to their health saluation after the same manner as they dyd the other suffrages in theyr name Hillarius If we will vnderstand that which saint Paul hath wrytten of the Corinthians which baptised themselues for the dead after the sence in which the auncients haue taken it we should haue no lesse reason to excuse them then those here For if I may take the supper for an other man wherefore may I not in lyke manner be baptised for him I thinke that they will not graunte we that that one may be baptised for an other and that that baptisme doth profite him and yet lesse to the dead then to the lyuing Theophilus It is well founde out who haue bene of that opinion that they may be baptised for the dead which without baptisme were departed out of this world that y baptisme profiteth them But the Doctors questionaries and namely Thomas of Aquin benyeth it and condempneth that opinion Hillarius If I may not then be baptised for the dead whereto serueth or profiteth the supper that I shall take for them For it hath not bene more ordayned for the dead then the baptisme but both of them were for the lyuing aswell the one as the other sith that both of them are Sacraments giuen vnto the militant Church and which is yet couered and wrapped in this flesh Theophilus There is nothing more certeyne And yet neuerthelesse behold how the one of the errors hath drawen the
the Apostles the whiche some among the auncients and among the Popes and counsels haue bene holden some for Canonical and others for Apocripha bicause that they doe serue in many thinges confirmable to the Apostolicall doctirne but they were not bound vnto them as vnto the holy Scriptures whiche they cannot reiect as they haue done often times when they haue found any Canon whiche séemeth much to differ from the Apostolicall doctirne Euen so maye we do of the bookes of the Machabees We may wel draw out of them examples for to exhorte the faithfull vnto paclence constancy and Martirdome propounding and declaring vnto them the vertue and the faith of that good mother with hir seuen sonnes who stoode so constantlye vnto death for to mainteine the Lawe of Gode who had not yet neuerthelesse such an occasion to doe that as we whiche haue more sure and certeine witnesses of the resurrection and of examples more euident aswell in Iesus Christ as in his Apostles dysciples then they had And so said S. Augstyne But it followeth not therfore that touching the doctrine which concerneth the faith and religion they should be with equall authority with the others And therefore the glose made vpon the decrée recysith them among the Apocripha Eusebius I woulde gladly that thou wouldest declare vnto mée a litle more plainely what thou vnderstandest by the Canonicals and Apocripha Theophilus I doe call canonicall all the bookes of the new testament the whiche wée haue and of the doe in like manner all those whiche are conteyned in the Hebrwe Bible the which we haue receiued of the holy Prophets and true seruaunts of God and whose authors are certeine and knowen And we doe cal them Canonicall which signifieth asmuch as rules bicause they are of an infallible veritie a certeine sure rule whiche is giuen vs of god for to ruel examine al other doctrine to proue the spirites whelter they are of God and for to liue according to the same Eusebius And what vnderstandest thou by Apocripha Theophilus Apocripha signifieth a thing hid secret or obscure which hath no sure or certein author or which is not alowed as are y bokes to y title is applies made at which are not sufferable but insomuch as their doctrin is confirmable vnto that of Canonicalls the which ought to be ruled by them And they haue no firme authoritie but that which those doe giue vnto it For in steede that we may take a sure foundation and buylding vppon any place taken out of the Canonicalls we cannot doe it in those heere if they haue not alreadye their foundation on the other They haue not bene called Apocrypha bicause that it was not lawfull to haue them in ones lybrary and to reade them with iudgement for ones profite For that was not forbidden But haue taken that name bicause that they were not of such authoritie the one should holde them for a sure and infallible doctrine of the church of God And they were not red and expounded openly in the same and with such authoritie as those which without doubt were holden for the certeyne worde of God to the which we are bounde to beléeue and to submit put our iudgement vnder them not to eleuate it aboue them or to iudge them by the other bookes which ought to bée subiect vnto them Eusebius And wherefore haue some of them more that authoritie then the others Theophilus Bicause that of the one we are cert eyne which are the pure wordes of God but not of the others but to the contrary Eusebius By what meanes Is it not bicause the Churche hath allowed them and not the other Now sith that their authority dependeth of the authority of the church if shee doe receine these here as the Canonicall maketh them of equall authoritie wherefore shall not they bée in the same degree Theophilus I doe beleeue that thou doest thinke that the church hath accustomed to legittimate the bookes as the Pope doth legittimate his bastardes The Popishe church may well take in hande that but that is not the propertie of the of Iesus Christ And although she woulde legittimate them yet they must be takē as bastards legitimated by the Pope which cannot be notwithstanding borne in lawfull maryage but do abide alwayes bastards and sonnes of fornication How can the daughter engender and beget hir Mother or hir Father Howe can the Church giue authoritie to the woorde of God who of the same receyueth hirs and of the same is begotten and borne Of whome receiueth the Sunne his brightnesse Doth hée receiue it of men whome hee illuminateth and lighteth Eusebius No. But on the contrary men of it Theophilus Is it cléere and shining bicause that men doe iudge and confesse it to bée such Eusebius No. But bicause that it is such the men that doe sée it and haue the experience are constrayned to acknowledge and confesse it to bée such Theophilus Thou meanest notwithstandinge that the Sunne should bee cleere and giue light bicause that men doe thincke it to bée so Eusebius Thou doest mée wrong to impute vnto mée that which I neuer spake but altogether contrarye Theophilus Thou hast sayd it by other wordes Whereby thou doest not perceiue thy selfe For when thou saydest that the holy Scripture taketh hys authoritie of the church thou sayest that men do giue lyght and cléerenesse vnto the Sun. For as Dauid doth wytnesse the word of the Lord is pure cléere that is the light which giueth light vnto the eyes giueth wisdome vnto babes It is then certeyne and true not bycause the Church iudgeth it such but it iudgeth it such bicause that it is so and cannot iudge of it otherwyse no more then he which hath cléere eyes can iudge of the lyght of the Sunne of whiche the blinde person is not capable Wherefore hée cannot iudge no more then the Infidells and reprohate can iudge of the woorde of God nor allowe it Then thou mayst by this vnderstand that the certeynetye veritie and firmenesse doth not depende vppon mans opinion and iudgement but vppon the holy Ghost and of the proper force vertue and effectes by which it doth verifie it selfe and compelleth the faythfull heartes to allow and receiue it as the lyght of the Sunne doth the eies For the sheepe doe heare and vnderstand the shepeartes voyce but not that of the straungers And all that that the Prophetes haue forshewed and taught the Apostles in lyke manner haue bene verified and authorysed by the vertue of him which hath spoken in them insomuch that all the worlde cannot resist it Nowe wée cannot saye she lyke of the bookes of the Machabees chiefely of the seconde First for that it is not founde in the Hebrewe and that the stile of the same witnesseth cléerely that it was first made in Greeke and was not translated frō the Hebrew tongue into the Greeke tongue
We may take it for a certeyne rule that it hath not belfe written by any Prophet or man worthy to bee accompted for such a one For the Prophets haue wrytten in their proper language to wit Hebrew or in the language of the Chaldees sithence the time of the captinite of Babilon Furthermore it is easye to knowe that that booke hath bene written longe time after the retourne of the people of Israell into Hierusalem and the age of Esdras Nehemias Aggeus Zachary Malachy sithence which wée do not read that the people of God haue had any Prophet that hath written any thing nor other bookes of a certeyne and autenticke authour Wherefore by good ryght this héere is accompted for Apocrypha And although there were no other reason for to diminishe his authoritye but the excuse whiche the authour of the sayde booke made in the ende of his worke that ought to suffice thée Reade the laste Chapter and thou shalte sée it by experience If hée had béne certeyne thorowe the spiryte of GOD that all that whiche hée hath written procéeded from him as the Prophetes and Apostles haue done wherefore shoulde hée excuse himselfe both of the stile of the manner of writinge and of the faultes that he myght haue committed If hée had bene alwayes inspired with the same spirite by which the Prophets and Apostles haue spoken he would haue spoken surely and in the authority of God as those who without excusinge themselues haue sayd The Lorde hath spoken it And Sainct Paul with what authoritie speaketh hee affirming that the Gospell whiche hee hath preached was so certeyne that although an Angell came downe from heauen for to bringe anye other vnto you he ought not to bée receiued but accursed Learne then Eusebius to discerne the bookes of the holye Scripture form the others and thinke not that the church hath holden for Canonicall that seconde booke of the Machabees but as a booke which was not altogether to bée reiected and of which it might serue the Church for declaration of the Scriptures bicause of the histories conteyned in the same whiche doe giue a certeine openinge for the intelligence of the antiquitie as the histories of Ioseph doe Yet neuerthelesse if one marke them well it shall be easle to iudge that the first and the second are not all of one authour not onely by the diuersitie of the stile 〈◊〉 also bicause that in the second are reiterated some bistories and many things which already haue bene intreales â—â— in the first and a great deale better then they are in this If one doe finde in any other booke worthy to bée credited of the olde or newe Testament any like place vnto that which thou hast alledged the argument should haue some colour by the shewe that the other would giue vnto it But forasmuch as it is alone his witnesse is not sufficient as it shoulde bée in the one of the others For God is as much to bée beléeued by one onely witnesse as by a thousand where a thousand witnesses of men without the same of God ought not to bolde any place in the religion But sithence that the superstition of the suffrages prayers for the dead hath begunne to haue crept into the Churche thys booke also hath begunne to take greate authorytie in suche sorte that it oftener is reade and songe in the Popishe Churche then those that contâ—yned more surer doctrine And thu oughtest also to vnderstand that the auncients haue sometime put a difference betweene y Canonical Apocrypha Ecclesiasticall bookes as it appeareth by the authour whiche hath expounded the Creede the which some doe thinke that it was Saint Cyprian other that it was Ruffin But whosoeuer if were of them both they are both of them very auncient and haue deuyded those bookes after that sorte Yée must know saith he that thée be other bokes after the Canonicall which are not called of the auncients of our predeâ—â—â—â—ors Canonicall but Câ—â—lessasticall as are the wisdome of Salomon and the other wysedome which is called Iesus the sonne of Syrach the which booke is among the Latins by that generall tytle called Ecclessasticus by the which woorde the author of the booke is not named but the quantie of the Scripture The booke of Toby is of the same order and of Iudith and the bookes of the Machabees the which they would that they should bée all read in the Church but they would not that they should haue bene settle foorth for to conâ—â—rme the authoritie of the fayth by them The other Scriptures they haue called Apocrypha the which they woulde not that they shoulde be read in the Churche Thou 〈◊〉 sée héere most playnelye howe that they doe attribute more authoritie vnto the Canonicall Scriptures then vnto the Eccleslasticall Scriptures and vnto the Ecclessastical more then vnto the Apocryphâ— but they haue not yet neuerthelesse estéemed those Eccleslassastical which they haue many times called apocrypha of equall and such authoritie as the diuine scriptures nor they haue called them Eccleslasticall for that cause but bicause that they were in such reputation that one niyght reade and signe them in the Churche the wâ—â—â—â— was not permitted in the auncient Churche or bicause that theyr antiquitie or holynesse of their authours added vnto them a â—yttle more authoritie then vnto the other Thomas By that accompte Eusebius then shall bée vnweapened of his principall staffe that hée thought to haue Eusebius If they would after that sort make the bookes eyther Canonicall or Apocripha at they re pleasure it is méere folly to disputs with them For all those which bée not to their mindes shall be Apocrypha Theophilus If thou wilt not be confenâ—ed with the reasons by me alledged go and plead against Sainct Hierome and your decrees If the auncients had not vsed iudgemeÌ„t and wisdome how many bookes would the hereticks haue brought into the Church vnder the name of the Prophets Apostles and of their Disciples The which they haue reâ—â—csed them following that same rule which I haue giuen vnto thée as it appeareth by your decrees which are a great rolle of them But I wil yet do more to the ende I leaue theâ— not an occasion to be miscontented w me I am content by way of disputation to put the case that y booke should be autentick of a diuine authoritie And although it were so it would serue thée yet neuerthelesse nothing at all for to proue that there is a Purgaâ—ory that we must offer for the dead to such intent and in such sort as you do make it And for to declare this vnto thée more plainly I demaund of thée for to begin first ouâ— matter in what time was that made which the history conteineth was it before the coÌ„ming of our Lord Iesus Christ or afterwards Eusebius Before Theophilus Tell me moreouer was the Purgatorye in that time such as thou beléeuest it is
Sainct Cyprian hath well vnderstanded of whom the witnes is alleged by the maister of the sentences For although all the deathes and forments that all men haue euer suffred Patriarkes Prophets and Apostles Martirs and confessors should be put together they should not be sufficient for to put out the least sinne in the world For God doth not take onlye for satisfaction the torment but regardeth the worthynes of the person of which he receaueth the raunsome the whiche was not found sufficient but in Iesus Christ Or otherwise if the torment which man doth suffer were approued and allowed of God for satisfaction and cause to auoyd the paines of Purgatory there shoulde bee no men more happier and blessed then the théeues murtherers brigandes and other malefactors which are executed by Iustice And there would bee none which would not but become a théese or murtherer or to coÌ„mit some fault wor thy of death for to be executed thorow Iustice to auoide the paines of Purgatory For if the doctrine of your diuines be true the fire of Purgatory surmounteth al the paine that a man can suffer in this life and it is so hot and burning that the visible and materiall fire of this world is but as a painted fire in comparison of that same Hillarius I cannot vnderstand in what place of the holy scripture they haue séene that I woulde rather beleeue that they haue learned it of Plutarch who hath witten that the dolors and paines of Purgatory are so great and so cruell that there is asmuche difference betwéene them and those that wee do suffer in our body and in the flesh as there is difference betwéene that which happeneth vnto vs in dreaming and that which happeneth vnto vs waking In somuch that all that whiche we doe suffer in this worlde is but as a dreame in the respecte of the same Wherfore if the fable that the Theologians haue rehersed of Sainct Gregory be true I shal not be abashed that hee had rather choose when the Aungell did giue vnto him the choyce of two things to be in paine and sickenes all his life then two daies in Purgatory bicause that hée prayed for Traianus and deliuered him from hell For although that he complained in his Epistles that hée is so much gréeuid with diseases and so great dolours that his life is vnto him nothing but paine yet neuertheles it is verye casle in comparison to be a quarter of an houre in Purgatory Thomas To what purpose hath the Angell giuen vnto him to choose one of those two paines By doing good ought euill to happen vnto him Hath hée fetched out Traianus from hell against Gods will If our Priestes had such a payment for to drawe soules out of Purgatorye I belaue that they would not be very much hotte after their masses Hillarius It were necessary that sithens they haue begunne the fable to ende it for to make it accorde and agrée with that of Theseus and Pyrothus who as the Poetes do witnes are punished in the hells bicause that they woulde take awaye Proserpina maugre the God Pluto Theophilus That is yet nothing in comparison to that that I haue said They do kindle that fire more For they do affirme that the same of Purgatory and that of hell is al one and that there is none other difference but that the same of hell is eternall touching his office but the same of Purgatory is not but as touching his substaunce bicause that the soules go out some time Wherefore they do conclude that not onely the paine of Purgatorye is the moste gréenous that euer was but whiche is more Thomas of Aquin hath written that that paine excéedeth and surmounteth the dolours torments which Iesus Christ hath suffred in his death and passion What blasphemy can be more greater For what hell can be more truell then that which Iesus Christe hath suffred for vs when hee take vpon him the cursse due for our sinnes for to deliuer vs Thomas Do they not alledge some place of the holye Scripture for to proue that Hillarius Where shal they finde it their probatien is an example which they do commonly put foorth and propounde taken out of the chronicles of the Iacobins of a Frier of that order who appeared vnto a very friende of his by whom beeing asked of the paines of Purgatorye aunswered that if all the world and all the visible things were on fire and did burne yet it could not be compared to the paine and beate of Purgatorye bost thou not thinke that the probation is worthy of such Theologians Eusebius Although that there were no Scripture that we had but our naturall sence the which God hath giuen vnto vs yet wee might well iudge that it is conuenient and necessarie that there be a Purgatorye in whiche the sinful men may he punished for those sinnes of which they haue not ended their penaunce For it is not written with out cause Nullum malum impunitum Nullum bonum irrenumeratum That is ther is none euil which shal not be vnpanished nor no goodnes which shal not be vnrewarded Theophilus Although that those wordes are not reryted in the scripture after that manner as thou doost receyte them yet neuertheles I am content to allow it to be true I doe not deny but that God is as iust as he is merciful For otherwise he could not be god But we ought to consider by what meanes he doth exercise his iustice mercie towards vs There is no doubt but the our sinnes do deserue great punishmeÌ„t And therfore hath he giueÌ„ vnto vs Iesus Christ his sonne hath deliuered him to death for vs that our misdéeds should be punished in him that he do satisfie for vs to his souereigne iustice for to obteine of him grace mercy in his name Thou seest theÌ„ that there is none euil which is not vnpunished for to satisfie the rightousnes iustice of god but ther is differeÌ„ce in the maÌ„ner of punishing Forâ—â— he that hath bâ—ne the euil beleeueth in Iesus Christ and hath full hope and trust that thorow his death passion he hath obtayned of God pardon and remission of his sinnes thorow that saith he is the true member of Iesus Christ and adopted for the sonne of god If hee bee a true member of Iesus Christ and a true childe of God hée his sinnes are punished in Iesus Christe who for that cense hath borne the iudgement and tursse of God for all the elect But if the sinner bee an Infidell and whiche hath no parte with Iesus Christ the wrath of God falleth vppon him and he cannot escape the Iudgement of God but that his sinne be punished in himselfe in hell fire And euen as our euill deedes are punished in Iesus Christ so are our good déedes rewarded in him and by him allowed of the celestiall Father which crowneth his good
olde and new Testament then betwéene the liuing which haue bene both in the one and in the other Thou canst not deny 〈◊〉 but that the Church of Iesus Christ hath begun thence the creation of the world the first that euer was last righteous the which shal so continue vnto the ende conclusion of the world shall continue eternally Eusebius I do confesse no lesse Theophilus Iâ— followeth by the same reason that the Church of the patriarches prophets which haue ben before the comming of our Lord Iesus Christ is none other but the very same of his Apostles Euangelists Disciples and that the faithfull of the people of Israel and those of the christian people are but one people one church For they had one very God one very Christ and the very promises one very spirit of faith and hauâ— eaten of one manner of spirituall meate and did all drinke of one manner of spiritual drinke with vs as the Apostle witnesseth Eusebius Then there shall be no difference betwéene the auncient Fathers and vs To what ende then serued the comming of Iesus Christ Theophilus I haue not yet sayde so For I doe finde great difference Eusebius What Theophilus As great as is betwéene a starre and the Sunne from the day breake and dawning to hye none betwéene the shadow and the body betwéene the Image and the truth betwéene the thing promised and the thing giuen Eusebius Thou wilt yet come vnto my matter For it séemeth by those wordes that thou leauest to the auncientes but the shadowes and figures and that thou giuest vnto vs the body and the thing figured There is then great difference Theophilus Yet thou vnderstandest me not very well I doe not denye but that they had all that which wée haue but not so cléerely so excellently and so gloriously nor in such aboundaunce of glory and maiestie For by the comming of Iesus Christ the knowledge of God and the intelligence of the holy Scriptures hath bene more greater and more ample then before not onely in the land of Canaan to the people of Israel but in all landes countries nations and the spirit of God with all his giftes graces and riches hath bene distributed in more greater aboundaunce efficacie vertue magnificence then euer it was Eusebius That which thou speakest off toucheth not yet but to the liuing which haue liued as well vnder the olde as the new testament But what difference doest thou put betwéene the liuing and the dead vnder the one and the other Theophilus That should bée too great temeritie and rashnesse in vs to define of the estate of the dead and to affirme any other thing then that which standeth manifestly vnto vs by the holy Scriptures Yet neuerthelesse because that in the same there are some places which giue light vnto vs of that same I will not make it any greate repugnaunce to putte in that matter such certeine difference betwéene them as wée haue put betwne the liuing Eusebius It séemeth then that thou wouldest say that the gates of Paradise were no lesse open before the death and passion of Iesus Christ then afterwardes And that there was none other difference betwéene the heauenly ioy and fruition of the auncient fathers and of the Christians that are deade saying that nowe all haue it more ample and more excellent Theophilus As for my part there where I haue not the scripture well expressed I doe leaue vnto euery one his frée iudgement so that it be ruled by the worde of god Touching my part I will expounde vnto thée that that I can drawe comprehend out of the holy scriptures by the which it is sufficiently made knowen vnto vs that notwithstanding that Iesus Christ hath béene immolated and offered vpon the Crosse for to satisfie the righteousnesse of God for vs at the time which was ordeined him of the father yet hath he béene neâ—erthelesse killed and offered in the presence of God from the beginning of the worlde For it is written Iesus Christ was yesterday and to day and the same contynueth for euer By those wordes the Apostle comprehendeth all the tyme past present and to come To which Iesus Christ himselfe had-regarde when he saide Abraham did sée my dayes and reioyced For although that in respect of vs he was crucyfied in the fulnesse of time in those latter dayes yet neuerthelesse in the presence of God he hath béene aâ—â—ayes and his sacrifice hath béene eternally presented vnto him For with God there is up difference of times as in vs bicause that all thinges are present to him and that he is aboue and out of the same For a thousande yeares before him are to him but as one day Wherefore in the same sort as the death and passion of Iesus Christe serueth nowe to vs which beleeue that he hath béene crucified for vs although that he hangeth no more in the crosse so I holde it for certeine that it profiteth those which liued before that he was cruciâ—â—ed and haue beléeued that he ought to come and dye for them euen as we beléeue that he is come and that he is deade for vs. Eusebius To what ende hath serued then his comming Theophilus Doest thou yet not vnderstande it If a man were detayned and kept in prison for certeine debt that he oweth and that he hath a certeine friend who commeth to be his suertie and to pledge him body for body and goods for goods and that the creditor prince receiueth alloweth him for his pledge suertie and hostage shall not the prisoner be deliuered by meanes of that suertie But yet neuerthelesse vpon such condition that either he or his suertye doe pay and satisfie for him at the time as shal be appointed him After the same manner hath God done with those good auncyent fathers For sithenâ—e that he made the promise vnto Adam of the séede of the woman which shoulde breake the serpents head the which afterwardes he hath râ—â—â—â—rated and confirmed more amply and more clearely vnto Abraham Iacob Dauid and to all the other patrâ—arkâ—â— and celebrated by all his Prophetes and by all the sacrifices oblations figures and ceremonyes commaunded in bys lawe Iesus Christ offred himselfe to God his father for to bee our pledge and suertye and gaue himselfe to him as a pledge for all those which haue beléeued in his promises made of him But vpon such condition that he being very and true God according to the good pleasure of the father for to satisfie his will and his righteousnesse tooke vpon him our flesh and presented himselfe before his iudgement at the time as by his prouidence was constituted and appointed him for to satisfie in our stéede Nowe sith y Iesus Christ hath once aunswered for his bretheren beléeuing in him the heauenly father hath excepted it aswell as though he had alreadie satisfied it as afterwardes
infamy the which yet neuertheles redoundeth more vnto their pareÌ„ts friends then vnto them But they forget themselues or rather they think that they do yet foele shal féele that dishonour infamye and publike shame which shall continue to their infants and lynage And although that they bée sufficiently tormented with their euill yet neuerthelesse they féele a great ease and refreshing if they vnderstande that their children haue none euill their torment is aggrauated and increased if they vnderstande the contrarie For that cause the Prophetes doe threaten not onely the wicked sort of their owne ruine and distruction but doe foreshewe vnto them that of their children and the euilles whiche shall happen vnto them as it appeareth in the prophecy of Esaie against Babylon and others like But for to stoppe all those euills and for to appaise the wrath of God kindled vpon vs as well for our sinnes as those of our fathers there is no better prayers nor offrings then to runne with true repentance amendemeÌ„t of life to implore his mercy Behold the good prayers for y deade to that ende that their sinnes be not counted wish ours Although that it be after whatsoeuer manner 〈◊〉 wilt take that place it sufficeth móe at this present to haue shewed vnto thée that thou canst not by the same proue thy purgatory although that the booke shoulde bée of the holy scripture And if thou wilt giue vnto it any credit it may better serue thée for to proue the Lymbe if there be one then the Purgatory But sith that Iesus Christ is come and that you confesse that he hath drawen the â—athers from the Lymbes the example of Iudas Machabeus can haue no more place among you sith that according to your doctrine the cause is ceased Eusebius Put case that there were no more neither Lymbe nor Purgatory can we not at the least pray for the resurrection of the deade And for the seconde comming of Iesus Christ the which we doe looke for as well as the auncyent fathers haue prayed for the first and haue desired and sighed after it Theophilus We may well pray as I haue alreadye saide and aske of God all that which apperteyneth to the perfection of his kingdome But to make prayers which are called prayers for the deade and to pray in perticuler that God woulde raise vp againe the bodyes of those which are deade and that Iesus Christ would soone come to iudgement I haue no commaundement of God nor example in all the holy scripture but rather to the contrary For when the Lorde aunswered vnto the soules of the saints which complayned of their persecutors that they shoulde â—arry vntill the number of their bretheren were fulfilled he doth sufficiently shewe by the same that he hath prefered the tyme the which cannot be plucked nor driuen backe And sith that the thing is altogether certeine and that we are alreadie all assured what néede is it then to make perticuler praiers Eusebius We are asmuch assured that all thinges which ought to come are passed by the counsell of God and that he will giue vs all that which shal be requisite to our helth and saluation that all the haires of our heade are numbred and none shall fall to the grounde without his wyll and his kingdome shall shall come and shall be exalted aboue all creatures but we may not leaue off therefore to pray continually â— to demaunde those thinges of God. Theophilus It is an other thing of vs which are yet in our voiage earthly peregrination â— of those which haue alreadie ended their course vnto whome we can no more add too nor dimynish For all the while that we are yet in the battaile we may empaire or amende and we haue alwayes néede to inuocate and call for the aide of God both for vs and for our bretheren which are yet in combate fight with vs And which is more God commaundeth vs so to do not that he knoweth not better then we what we do lacke before we do aske and that hee is not willing to giue it vs but hee doth it for to hold and kéepe vs in his feare to learne vs to sanctifie his name to exercise our faith towards him and our loue towardes our neighboure whilest that wée may serue him in this mortall peregrination But after that the voctorie is gotten or lost and that one is once come and arriued to the hauen and port to which he must go the cause and the occasion is no more such Eusebius Thou hast saide before that the soules of the blessed and the verye Angels were not yet in their full glorie Also wee cannot denye but that the bodies of the faithfull that are deade are yet kept in death sith that they are in corruption from the which they shal not be deliuered vntill their resurrection that death shal be altogether abolished What euill is it then to pray for the deade that their bodie may be deliuered from corruption and that they may haue their perfect consummation in bodie and soule Theophilus I haue alreadie satisfied thée in that if thou vnderstandest what difference there is betwéene the lyuing and the deade And although we had none other thing but that the scripture maketh no expresse commasidement that ought to suffice thée For if it were a question to worke subtilly and sophistically in the worde of god I shoulde well haue asmuch reason to put forth that wée must make prayers in perticuler for the virgin Marye for all the Prophets Apostles Saints and Saintes of Paradise Yea for the Angells and for Iesus Christ himselfe Hillaâ—ius It shoulde be requisite then by that accompt to make out of hand a newe Letany In stéede where the Prâ—estes do sing saint Michael pray for vs saint Mary mother of God pray for vs saint Peter pray for vs and so consequently of others we must say O Lorde we pray and beseech thée for saint Michael saint Gabriel saint Mary saint Peter saint Paul â—nd â—or all the saints and saintes of Paradise that thou do put them in full â—oye and perfect â—elicitie and that thâ—u â—aise vp their bodyes to eternall glorie Theophilus If our dâ—e examine well the greatest part of the prayers which the priestes make for the deade euen as they are written in their Messell and Breuiaries one shal be constrained â—o confesse that such prayers cannot be made in the name of others then of those whome they do inuocate and call vpon in their Letanyes and that they be of like condition Hillarius I haue heard the Cordeliers mocke at Frier Christofer which was one of their order and couent bâ—cause that he did sing the Masse of Requiem for the Saints and Saintes of Paradise But if he had knowen howe to defende his cause it had not béene without reasâ—n For he might haue verie wel alledged for his warrant the Memento of the
such as haue not knowen him in this world VVherevpon shal be entreated the place of Saint Peter touching the preaching of Iesus Christ vnto the deade to the spirits that were deteined in prison for the end conclusion of all those matters the funeralles of purgatory shall be celebrated and he shal be buried For that cause this dialogue is called the Requiescant in pace of purgatory For he is deade and buryed THE SIXT DIALOGVE WHICH is called the Requiescant in pace of Purgatorye THOMAS Although friend Eusebius thou hast resisted Theophilus and Hillarie as much as thou canst and that thou hast fought valyantlye yet neuerthelesse thou couldest not so vertuouslye defende thy selfe but that the forewarde the winges and the hornes of thy armye and almost all the whole hoast is discomfyted and ouercome there resteth no more nowe but the arrierewarde If it defende it selfe no valyentlyer and that it bée no better armed then the others thou shalt carry no good newes to the Pope of that combatte and thou shalt giue him no greate occasion to receiue thee among his Capitaines and to reward thée ritchly Eusebius I doe not fight for the Pope but for the trueth It is to me all one who d ee gaine or winne the battaile so that the victorie abideth with the trueth and that Iesus doe raigne in his Church Theophilus I am very glade for the good affection that GOD hath giuen vnto thée and that thou art not like vnto a heape and company of ambicious and glorious men who what so euer euill cause that they haue will neuer confesse them selues ouercome and vanquished but estéeme their glory more dearer then the same of Iesus Christ Eusebius It is verye true that at the beginning I was much offended with your wordes But when I considered that which I haue hearde of you I knewe not well to which side to turne You haue alreadye very much ouercome and fayled me neuerthelesse I haue yet many places of the holye Scriptures which holde me in suspens and leaue me in a greate scruple and doubt in my conscience vntill such time as thou hast shewed me by liuely euident reasons that I must vnderstande them otherwise then they haue béene expounded vnto me or else you shall be constrayned to chaunge your matter and to denye and vnsay all that you haue saide euen vntill this present time Hillarius Propounde them all by order and Theophilus wil addres guyde thée to the true vnderstanding Eusebius For to kéepe the better order I wyll beginne by the olde testament and afterwards will follow the newe after the order by which the bookes of the same are disposed and set alledging out of euery one of them the pointes which may serue to my matters I will put forth vnto thée that which Thoby commaunded his sonne saying Set thy breade and wine vppon the buriall of the righteous But thou wilt aunswere vnto me that that booke is Apocripha or onely Ecclesiasticall and not Canonicall as thou hast already done of the same of the Machabees Theophilus Truely I may aunswere thée so But although it were Canonicall where too would it serue for thy matter Eusebius Very well following the interpretacion of Eccius which expoundeth it of the Almoses for to refresh the poore that they should pray vnto God for the saluation of the deade Theophilus He that woulde followe the exposicions of Eccius there is not a place in the Bible which he hath not corrupted and marred for to make it serue to the popish tyranny In the booke of Thoby in that place there there is no mention made of praying for the dead And although those words preceded thervnto he ought rather to haue saide Set thy breade vppon the buriall of the sinner then vpon that of the righteous For the sinners shal haue more neede of such prayers then the righteous But he saith altogether contrarye For hée addeth eate and drinke not with the sinners and wicked The which is better expressed by the Greeke saying Set thy breade vpon the buriall of the righteous and giue it not vnto sinners Wherefore it is most likest to be true sith that before he hath spoken of Almoses that he recommendeth by those wordes chiefely the righteous and faithfull euen as saint Paul aboue all other recommendeth those of the houshold of faith Nowe there are many manners and wayes to bestowe ones breade and wyne vppon the burialles of the righteous The first is in burying them honestly as Thoby did without sparing that which was there vnto néedefull and requisite For the Hebrewes by the breade wyne and water doe vnderstande all the things necessarie vnto man and vnto mans life The other is when we doe helpe our bretheren succour so their necessities that they dye not for want of vittailes nor goe downe to the graue without being buried If we doe otherwise we kill them when we fâ—â—de them not and that they do dye through our default The thirde is when we comfort thorowe Almoses the children and friendes of the deade Then we shed foorth our breade and wine vpon their burialles behold the holy water that they desire And it is a great deale better to doe after that sort then to playe the glutton with the gluttons drunkerds and wicked But the manner of spech is somewhat obscure bicause that the booke notwithstanding that it was written in Greeke yet neuerthelesse it keepeth the phrases and manners of the Hebrew speach Hillarius He that will then followe the counsell of Thoby must no more banket and feast the Priestes sith that he forbiddeth to giue his breade and wine vnto sinners and the wicked For there is not a people vpon the earth of a more execrable life nor which do more abuse the goods which GOD hath giuen vnto man Amongst whom one may well accompt and number Eccius for one of the principallest Captaines of God Bacchus For he was very angry that day he was not dronken in Wherfore it is no meruaile if he woulde mainteine the spitt and the fryingpan But yet no ueil 〈◊〉 although he and all such as he is would presse and take the words of Thoby by the rigour without admitting any exposition confirmable and agreable to the worde of God it should haue had more colour for to allow the auncient custome which the Panyms had to cary breade vpon the burialls and to powre thereon wine euen as already hath béene spoken then for to proue the bankettes of the priestes and the prayers for the deade Neuerthelesse we are well assured that neither Thoby nor any other holy man but haue had regard not to allow such supersticious Eusebius Let vs leaue of Eccius and the pristes and answere me vnto that which is written in the booke of the Psalmes We haue passed thorowe the fire and water and thou hast drawen vs out and set vs in ioye and comforte Howe vnderstandest thou that place
respect of those which haue receiued the light of the gospell But we must not therefore dreame that the bosome of Abraham was a prison or a Castle as we haue alredy declared in the other disputacion But we must be aduised know that those things are spoken by a comparison as we haue already declared the examples Thomas It séemeth that Saint Peter speaketh not but of the reprobate For after that hée hath spoken of those spirits which wer in prison he addeth which late or sometune were rebells Theophilus He speaketh generally of all For euen as the Gospell is a sweete sauour of lyfe to lyfe vnto those which are saued and a sauour of death to death vnto those that perish so the death of Iesus Christ bringeth a great reioycing both to the Angells and to all the blessed spirits and more greater confusion and grieuous dampnation vnto the wicked and reprobate But after that he spake generally of the spirits he pursued not all the two parts but stayed himselfe onely to the disobedient and rebells bicause that he is fallen into that matter speaking of afflictions Wherefore for to comfort the faythfull he sâ—ayed to declare vnto them the vertue which Iesus Christ hath for to saue his as he saued Noe and his family in the Arke and for to punish the wicked and persecutors as he hath drowned the Gyants by the floud For that cause he stayed to declare the Iudgement of god as in the chapter following saying that Iesus Christ shall Iudge the quicke and the dead For vnto this purpose verely was the Gospell preached vnto the dead that they should bée iudged lyke other men in the flesh but should lyue before God in the spirite Thomas By that which thou sayest thou doest declare vnto vs that that place concludeth not that ther is any other Limbe nor Purgatory then such which thou hast shewed vnto vs from the beginning But what sayest thou touching the preaching of the which we haue spoken which ought to be done vnto the spirits after this lyfe Theophilus First of all as touching those which are departed out of this world without hauing one grayne of that seede of the feare of God but haue altogether resisted his spirite and the naturall lyght and knowledge that hée hath giuen vnto them or at the preaching of his gospell we cannot leaue vnto them any preaching nor any other remedy after their death for their saluation except wée wil fall into the error of the Origenists and Anabaptists For it is written He which beléeueth not in the Sonne of God is already condempned But if it be a question of the elect which haue had alredy in this world some grain of the seede of God which haue walked in his feare although that they haue bene yet wrapped in many errors and darkenesse there is an other consideration Not that I doe vnderstand that the gospell is preached vnto them after they are departed out of this lyfe otherwise saying that they shall haue more ful knowledge of that that they haue onely héere known as amongst the midst of darkenesse For if they be the sonnes of God the seede of god which is in them shall saue them As wee may iudge by the example of Cornelius the Centurion Before that he had heard the preaching of Saint Peter he had not perfect knowledge of Iesus Christ Hée was yet a Panim but he was not therefore altogether without the seede of the feare of GOD nor without some beginning of fayth obscure knowledge of IESVS CHRIST Or otherwise his prayers and almes deedes shoulde not haue bene approued of God whome one cannot please without fayth If he had then dyed before that S. Peter was come vnto him I do not thinke therefore that he had ben altogether reiected and forsaken of God and that that knowledge sufficed him not to saluation or that he had not giuen himselfe more fully to be knowne of him either by some diuine inspiration or by some other meanes such as it pleaseth him yea in the Article of the death or at his last gaspe rather then to suffer him to perish As we may presume as wel of the Iewes as of the Panims who before the comming and manifestation of Iesus Christ in the flesh had the lawe of God written in their heartes notwithstanding that they haue not had altogether so full knowledge of Iesus Christ as we haue at this present For although that the knowledge of Iesus Christ be vnto all men necessary to saluation it followeth not therefore that none can be saued if it be not full and perfect in him For who euer had in this world so full knowledge of him and a faith so perfect that he had nothing to say There was neuer such a one found in this world It sufficeth then that that knowledge faith hath taken roote in vs that we do trauaile as much as we can possible to augment and increase it And afterwards when we shall doe our endeuour as much as we can the Lord which hath begun his worke in vs will bring it to passe and will supply and recompense thorow his grace the default of the faith and knowledge which we haue receiued of him euen as he doth of our workes which are all imperfect bicause of the imperfection of our faith so that ther be not dispising and to great negligence in vs which cannot be but to the reprobate Euen then as GOD by his great mercye supporteth the imperfection of our fayth and ceaseth nor leaueth off to receiue vs for his children so that the seede and the roote of the same be quickened in vs so I cannot vpholde and mainteine by anye witnesse of the holy Scripture that any should haue iust occasion to hope for saluation after this lyfe which from the same shall bée departed without any knowledge of God of Iesus Christ his sonne Wherefore I doe holde me to that which the Scripture hath reuealed vnto me do leaue the rest with the secrete iudgements of God which are hid from vs and couered But yet neuerthelesse I think that it is alwayes most sure to trauaile very much after the knowledge of the truth whilest that wée be in this worlde that wee may haue so much as is néedfull for our saluation and that our despising be not any cause vnto vs of dampnation And if wée doe our endeuour wee are very sure that the Lorde will not faile vs and that he will not hide himselfe or withdrawe himselfe from vs if wée doe seeke him and desire to approch and come vnto him For it is impossible that hee wil hide himselfe from those whom he hath chosen whoÌ„ he hath purposed to glorifie and to make them blessed by his knowledge And notwithstanding that wée haue not all of vs so great and high knowledge of him nor so many of his giâ—tes and graces as his Prophetes and Apostles yet
suffering yet neuerthelesse the others which doe induce but to dishonour and blasphemye But also bicause that although that it bée permitted vnto many to reade them yet neuerthelesse they doe make none account of them bycause that eyther they séeme vnto them very obscure and so wayghtye that they cannot well vnderstande them or the tyme to longe and take no pleasure to reade bookes whiche haue not some merrye conceytes and delites for to make them pastyme For they are yet to carnall and finde no pastime in those bookes whiche speake but of GOD and of the health of the Soule if there bée nothing for the fleshe the which they woulde onely keepe There is no doubte but that malady or dysease is very perillous and that suche vicious and corrupt Natures doe very muche displease GOD sith that they haue so lyttle reuerence of him and hys woorde and that they preferre the poyson before the good meate Neuerthelesse bycause that amongest suche one maye yet finde some whiche are not altogeather peruerse and malicyous but that they haue yet some seede of the feare of the LORDE in them mée thinckes that wee muste not altogeather dyspayre and abanoon them as sicke folke that are incurable but that we must yet proue to winne them if it bee possible and to transfigure and chaunge them into al formes and shapes for to induce them to reade the holy Scriptures and to giue vnto them some tast For if we can conuert into good vses the meanes by the which the Diuell gyueth himselfe to drawe away man from the word of God and to robbe him altogether and holde him in the vanities of this worlde and may vse them as a baite on a hooke for to draw them from such vanities and to incitate and prouoke them to the studye of the truth me thincketh that wée doe nothing vnworthy of the office of a Christian man For euen as the holy Apostle hath bene made all vnto all men and doth applye and giue himselfe vnto euery one in all that which was possible for him without béeing against the will of God making himselfe a Iew vnto the Iewes and a Gentile vnto the Gentiles So me thinketh y by good right I may doe the lyke so that I do not altogether forget the Christian modestie and the honour and reuerence that the Christian oweth vnto the woorde of god For if the bawdes of Sathan endeuour themselues through faire and goodly delites and merry conceites to destroy the poore and silly soults the espowses of Iesus and to drawe them away from him for to make them serue him and to forsake their master shall it not be lawfull for vs to vse an other practise and cunning for to let theirs for to discouer and vnhide their filthinesse for to make them appeare to be abhomination to all the world and to retire and drawe backe the soules from his stewes for to ioyne them agayne with Iesus Christ their Sauiour If a paysoner doe couer and hide his poison with some delicate meate for to poison and murther men shall it not be by more iust reason peruntted to a Phisiâ—ion to mingle suger and hony amonge the wormewoode and the bitter Aleos for to sweeten a little the bitternesse of these drinckes Which notwithstanding that they are bitter in the mouth are yet neuerthelesse healthfull to the boote For if such holy deceits are worthy of praise to the Phisitions of the body wherefore shal it be despised to the Phisitions of the soules I would to GOD that he had giuen vnto vs the grace to deceiue so all the worlde for his profite and health For the diseased is happie which is deceiued by the Phisition to his health and healing which is the ende to the which both the one and the other doe pretende both the Phisition and the diseased I know very well that there bée already many bookes written which doe muche discouer abuses and which doe sufficiently mocke the vaine ceremonies idolatries and superstitions which are amonge the Christians but that sufficeth not except one doe teach what is the veritie and what is a firme and sound doctrine The which many haue already done but bicause they séeme and appeare too seuere and graue vnto those with whom wée haue chiefly to doe they reade them not and doe profit nothing There are others which haue followed a manner to write altogether contrary vnto those For euen as those haue regard to none other thing but to entreate of the woorde of God with all grauitie modestie and reuerence adressinge their writinges vnto people of good iudgementes and of temperate sences and full of the feare of GOD These héere vnto the contrary haue not taken their sight but to the white and marke of mans vanitie and curiositie and haue purposed to absteme themselues from all waightie honest and holy matters and to write onely of follyes merry conceites iestes playes and pastimes as of fooles morishdauncers scoffers and iesters And if they woulde holde themselues within those limits they were the more tollerable But many are not content to playe the fooles amongest men although that that office is scant méete vnto an honest man doe yet worse For they giue themselues but to scurrilitie and doe thincke that they cannot sufficiently inough delite men except their deuice bée altogether full of ruffenly talke and bawdry of vilanies and blasphemies not onely intollorable to the Christians but which shoulde bée iudged woorthy of grieuous punishmentes amongest the Iewes Turkes Panims and Infidels For if the Gentiles and Panims haue not taken and accompted for honest men and worthy to bée aduaunced into anye honourable office in a common wealth the Morishdauncers Maskers Iuglers Players Mummers and Iesters what honour is that vnto Princes and vnto Christian people to take delyte not onelye in such men with their bookes but in others a great deale more detestable and more ruder in all filthy and vyle woordes as the ruffians of the stewes and denyers of god Doe wée thincke that Iesus Christ hath sayde wythout a cause that for euery idle woorde that men shall speake they must render accompt at the day of iudgement Sith that the trueth which lyeth not telleth vs the same so cléerely and doth meanace and threaten that wee muste render an accompt for euery idle word that is to say which is vaine and vnprofitable whiche serueth nothing at all to the glorie of GOD nor to any edifyinge of our neighbour Doe wée thincke that our ribalde and bawdye talke backebitings euill speakings vnaduised slaunderous and infamous woordes which doe serue to none other ende but to peruerte the vnderstandings of men to adde or heap euil vpon euil to cast oyle into the fire and to bring towe the better to inflame mans conscience vnto all wickednesse and abhomination and vnto the which it is alreadie too muche inclined Doe wée thincke that suche languages shall not come to an accompte and that
wée sée it by experience in young children merchants gentlemen damoisels and courtiers who after that they haue tasted of such bookes are cleane out of taste cannot away with all other which are not like vnto them Wherfore I would gladly counsaile such men of so good a minde and spirite which giue themselues to make such bookes and I desire and pray them in the name of Iesus Christe and so much as they loue his honour and theirs to applie that goodly wit and vnderstanding which GOD hath giuen vnto them and that rhetoricke and gift of eloquence wherewith they are indued into some better study matter more profitable to the ende they bée not rebuked and blamed to haue abused the gyft of God against his honour and glorie For that cause I haue purposed to write after a sort which peraduenture will séeme very euilly to agrée with a Theologian to wit vnto one which wil speake of diuine letters But I thincke that when men shal vnderstand my reasons they will take my aduice and deliberation in good parte and I will leaue vnto none any iuste occasion to accuse and rebuke mée in that I rebuke others except that men loue rather to serue to their affections and to vse slaunders then to iudge of thinges accordinge to truth and equitie I haue already touched some reasons which haue induced mée to do that besides yet I wyl adde too many others The first is that I would assay to make those learne by my example which haue a better wyt then I to doe that which I my selfe cannot the whiche thinge ought not to séeme to straunge For a whetstone a whéele doe sharpen well the Iron and maketh it to cut and yet neuerthelesse it is not sharpe nor cutteth of it selfe And at the least wise I indeuour my selfe to shewe vnto those good wittes and spirites which delyght themselues in pleasaunt thinges and which occupie themselues to such vanities and matters in the which they maye exercise their vnderstanding and cloquence more to their honour before GOD and good people and to more greater profit then they doe if they will not apply themselues vnto matters to high and waightie as many haue done as well amonge the olde as the newe And if I my selfe cannot doe that which I would teach vnto others at the leaste wise I will serue them in stéede of a patterne wherein they may finde some thing for to followe Or at the leaste wise the fault y they shal finde in my manner of procéeding wyll admonishe them of the vices that they ought to auoyde in their writinges the which if they finde in my stile or in my inuention or disposition I am sure that they shall not finde in the sentence and substaunce of the matters any thing vnworthy for a Christian man For whatsoeuer thinge that it bée I beléeue that one shall finde nothing which may induce to heresie except those who of themselues doe pretende therevnto and who as the Spiders doe drawe the venym from all places and heresies out of the holy Scriptures which are gyuen vnto vs to kéepe vs from all heresie Although that I doe mocke and iest at the abuses errours heresies superstitions and Idolatryes of the Churche of Antechriste Yet neuerthelesse whosoeuer shal wel marke and consider the matter and shall haue patience to reade all the tenoure of the sentence and of the Argument vnto the ende excepte hée be of a peruerse iudgement shall bée constrayned and compelled to acknowledge and confesse that I doe not mocke or scorne of thinges which are worthy not onely of mockery but also of hatred and abhomination of all mankinde And that I doe not onely vncouer the abuses without shewing by and by the true vse of y thinges nor I doe not condempne the errours and the lyinges without shewinge the trueth that wée muste followe and wherein the faithfull ought to stay themselues And I doe not manifest Antechrist for to auoyde and to flée from him without shewing Iesus Christe for to followe him Wherefore me thinckes that those which haue their eares so delicate and cannot onely abide one lyttle woorde against the Idolatry superstition the great abuses which leade all the worlde into ruine are not rightfull Iudges but of a corrupt and peruerse iudgement For what iudgement is this to heare and sée the name of God the death and passion of Iesus Christ to bée blasphemed dayly so horribly and not to speake a woorde And to bée such an vniust and sharpe rebuker and seuere Iudge agaynst those who onely in scoffing and iesting will admonish rebuke such blasphemers They doe willingly suffer that suche men doe mocke God openly that they doe blaspheme hym without any shame That they doe tourne vpside downe all Religion the truth of Iesus Christ That they make frustrate and of none effect the vertue and efficacie of his death and passion That they doe eate vp and deuoure his poore shéepe before their eyes That they doe leade the poore soules vnto perdition eternall dampnation doe holde all the world in errour Idolatry for to destroie them altogether And cannot we suffer that vnto such mockers blasphemers of God and of men one should onely giue a little holy water of the court and that one should sprinckle them with the least thing of y world onely with some little word or saying or with some pleasant word the which can hurt no man and which is no dishonour vnto God but serueth to discouer the abuses and to bring the mouths of y faithful out of fast with the idolatry and superstition and to manifest vnto them the seducers for the health of their soules I dóe greatly meruaile of those great louers of the honour of Hipocrites Sedusers false Prophets rauishers deuourers of the poore widdowes and fatherlesse mockers contemners blasphemers of the word of God haue so little regard or care of the honour of God of Iesus Christ our Lord whom they sée daily to be crucified before their eyes and to bée spurned and trodden vnderfoote the bloud of his testament and couenaunt and yet dare not speak a woord But which is worse they wil not yet suffer that others vnto whom God hath giuen the meanes and boldneess should speake and rebuke such abuses and sacrileges importable to all good Christian hearts Mée thinkes that such people haue no iust occasion to condempne vs in that behalfe For if they are too wise and doe thincke that such things agrée not with the grauitie of their persons then let them leaue them to be spoken of the fooles sith that as men doe say they haue the priuiledge to speake all things For as for my part I would be very well contented that God would giue me the grace that I might say vnto them as the Apostles sayd vnto the Corinthians Ye are wise and we are fooles for the loue of Christ If
their schoole and vnto a more higher Philosophie If they thinke that we must entreat of such matters with more greater grauitie modestie I deny not that we can entreate of the word of God with to great honour and reuerence But I would that they had aswel the consideration that the word of God is not so seuere but y it hath his merry conceits sports honest games merry iests words couenable most agreeing to his grace Maiestie And he y will trye proue it let him consider how GOD himselfe and Iesus Christ that greate celestiall Orator doth speake sometime either in rebuking his Disciples or the Hipocrites and reprobate and among those which the Lord did speake without heaping together a great many of examples that they would onely marke and behold what answere Ioas the father of Gedeon dyd make vnto the Burgesses and Citizens of the towne who complayned to him of his sonne which had pulled downe and destroyed the Idoll of Baal and his Aulter And the wordes that Ely had with the Prophets of Baal What mocked did he giue them And Fsay in lyke manner against the Babilonians and their Idolles Who yet neuerthelesse were both of them graue very seuere Prophets And in the booke of wisedome and in Baruch and in the Epistle attributed vnto Ieremy I will leaue off to alleage the examples of so many good auncient Doctors who in their bookes and by their writings haue so much iested and mocked at the superstitions and Idolatries of the Panâ—ns which had more greater reason and appearaunce then those against whome we doe at this time fight He that will not beléeue me let him read their workes chiefely of Tertulian Eusebius Lactantius Augustine Hierome and other lyke vpon all those that they haue written against the Panâ—ns and Heretickes Wherefore then shall not that bée permitted vs in Dialogues which we rebuke not in those great men when they haue spoken it in their owne person the which requireth more grauitie then if they did bringe in other men speaking and disputing together as I doe in my Dialogues disputacions For ther is none of a good iudgement but that he vnderstandeth very well that in the phrase of writing there is no greater libertie and licence in Poetry then Dialogues and talkes For they must bring in the persons speaking according to him whom they represent who oftentimes do speake more after their sence and of the persons whom they doe iest at then according or after the same of the authour Although that the author hath willingly vsed to choose some one by whom he giueth to vnderstande what is his opinion and the best sentence Therfore I haue brought in foure men of diuers qualitis and opinions and doe make them to speake according to the matters which are talked off at this daye among men and according to the nature and affection of euery one of them I haue brought in one as a man very deuout and searing God which neuerthelesse is yet altogether wrapped in supersticion and errour and maynteineth mans traditions but not wilfully I haue brought in an other which is not yet fully assured and set downe neyther on the one side nor on the other but is troubled in his conscience and knoweth not very well whom to beleeue but runneth on the one side and â—n the other and yet neuerthelesse desireth to know the truth and he enquireth and knoweth already many abuses wherefore he speaketh a lyttle more ioyfully and careth not so much for mans traditions and is not so affectioned after them nor so seuere as the first who is yet altogether rooted in these olde superstitions Afterwards commeth one who representeth the person of a graue honest man skilfull in y heauenly and humaine letters which speaketh dayly with great honour and reuerence of the word of God and absolueth the questions and maters alleaged of the one side and of the other according to the sentences of the holy Scriptures and auncient Ecclesiasticall Doctors And for the fourth there is one which is a little more talkatiue then this and a lyttle more giuen to speake fréely agaynst the abuses but he doth it with more greater modestie honestie then the Caphards doe speake against the ministers and louers of the truth I doe sayne this man to haue more skill or knowledge in humayne letters then the others and which speaketh willyngly and ioyfully but in such sort that he playeth in earnest and sayth nothing but to the dishonour of Antechrist for to magnifie Iesus Christ that he is content to be corrected by his companion if any thing be to be blamed Wherefore if any man would saeme to cauill because it séemeth vnto him some time that this man playeth the parte of a mocker and that he mingleth the humayne letters Histories and Poetryes with the diuine let him consider the person whom he representetâ— that he doth not speake any thing so absurde nor so straunge but that it serueth to the presente matter and lette him not vere himselfe anye more Furthermore if Saint Paul by occasion hath sometime alleaged the witnesse of the Panuns yea of Poets for to serue to his matter and if the auncient Doctors of the Church of whom I haue already spoken off haue yet done more and their booke haue serued them so well for to confounde them themselues and to vanquish them of their errours and to shew vnto them more cléerely the truth vertue of our relygion Insomuch that Iulian the Apostate in spite of his beard was constrayned to forbid the Christians to reade them he ought not to thinke it straunge if I do follow their example in lyke things chiefely when I wyll shew plainly and openly before all mens eyes how the superstitions and Idolatryes of the Christians were taken from the Panims and Idolaters and altogether lyke or worse I doe not alleage them for that Gods truth is not sufficient of it selfe to allowe and maynteyne it selfe but for to make all thinges to serue him and for to make the lyght the better to bée knowne from darkenesse the truthe from lyinge and the better to vanquish and ouercome the shamelessé seducers who would yet hide and couer theire heresies and abhominations if one doe not shew them forth with the finger and except one doe take them as the theefe vppon his theft and robbery and the shamelesse whore with hir whoredome And if there be any yet which will not be contented with those resons I will shew vnto him such an excuse and defence as Mantuan did make for himselfe in a matter almost lyke saying Thinke not that I am to be rebuked bicause that I haue recourse to the authoritie of an heathen man For Saint Augustine which is one of our Doctors sayth If the Philosophers haue said any thing confirmable vnto our fayth we must not auoyd them nor feare them but
them for suche as they are and they must not any more spare them sith that they woulde waxe worse and empaire if one shoulde kéepe them and the more that one doth thincke to make them méeke and gentle in flattering them they become the more sauage wilde and madde And therefore I thincke that those that are of a good iudgement and which doe consider the thinges according to the truth shall bée constrained to confesse that I flatter to much Although that I doubt not but that one shal finde some which may say of me that which is sayd commonly of the Asse which woulde play wyth his master as hée did sée the dogge doe strikinge him and leaping vpon hym with his féete I am very sure that such playes and games doe not please the king of Babilon and his court and that they will not haue suche Apes excepte they bée otherwise apparelled then that poore Asse was For they haue not accustomed that those little Ladyes dogges which make them sporte and wagge the tayle and which are learned and taught to runne and leape on the Ladyes and Gentlewomen and those pleasaunt Apes and Marmesettes for to make them pastime But the LORD wyll haue none other Apes in his Church then such dullardes as the world iudgeth them which doe playe and iest earnestly and doe goe as they doe intende in all simplicitie without dissemblinge that which ought not to bée dissembled Hée will not haue such lyttle pleasaunt dogges for to bée a delite and pleasure vnto Ladyes but woulde haue good Mastyes and great greyhoundes which are not to be carryed in the sléeue but for to barke and driue awaye the Wolfe from the folde Wherefore if there bee men whiche in laughinge doe bite they doe giue vs to vnderstande that they take no great pleasure by such playes and pastimes but that they woulde haue other pastime and occasion to speake of better matters Yet neuerthelesse they doe shew vnto those which doe loue the pastyme and which take pleasure in them as Democritus hath laughed and scoffed at the follies and dreames of men that it is not nowe néede that they doe séeke any other matter The courte of Antechrist gyueth them ynough and most worthyest to laugh at and in the which one maye better iest wythout offending GOD if one doe it wyth such affection and such modestie as is in these Dialogues Those also which shall bée totter and seuere and which as Heraclitus doe iudge the follies and miseries of men more worthy of wéepinges and lamentations then of laughings and iestinges they shall haue héere matter ynoughe to wéepe séeing the iudgement of GOD which hath bene and is yet vpon the Christian people bicause of our sinnes and despisinge of his woorde Insomuch that me thinckes that I haue not written any thing which may bring hurt vnto the Christian religion And though I doe not profite very much yet neuerthelesse there wanted in mée no wyll Wherefore I doe trust that the good men will take all in the beste parte whome onely I feare to offende If the wycked are angrye wythout a cause I will leaue them for such as they are yet I speake neuerthelesse the veritie although they will not take it If the wise and learned cannot much profit it is sufficient for me that the poore ignoraunt people should receiue some fruite Although that such a one doe thincke himselfe very wise and learned that he may yet finde some thing for to learne It is very true that that matter requireth better to be intreated off in Latine then in french For it conteineth things which would haue ben plainer which would haue bene entreated off more briefly the which peraduenture I may be rebuked for ouermuch prolixitie tediousnes But there are many reasons which are the cause The first is for that I am one of those Oratours which know not to enter in talke or begin any matter nor which know not howe to leaue off The second bicause that I doe write most of all for the ignorant and rude people for whom we had néed to chew their meates a little and to declare the matters more grosly y which they cannot vnderstand in one word as those that are wise learned which wil comprehend it very easily as those which haue read the Authours out of whome I haue taken the matter Therefore there is yet an other reason that is that I must vse great circumlocutions and narrations for to expresse and declare that which in Latine or in Greeke myght bee spoken in one woorde For the things are more harde vnto those which haue not read the Greeke and Latine authours But I haue tolde alreadye the causes which haue moued mée to write rather in this language then in an other And if the matter bee worthy to bée put in the Latine tongue if it please the Lorde it may bée done at leasure or it maye moue the heart of some which will do it better Be it as it is it is to mée sufficient so that I doe serue a little the good If I doe offende the Hipocrites I would be contented that they bée offended with mée so that they doe finde better tast in all the other which haue spoken and written of the relygion a great deale better then I and so that they haue them in such honour and reuerence as they ought to haue Also I thinke that none shall finde vnfitte for the matter many of the histories of our time the which I haue set in and mingled among these matters For if it be lawfull to alleage the auncient historyes written by others wherefore should we not speake of that which is done in our time when occasion serueth Sith that so many things do come dailye more worthy of remembraunce then many of those which the auncients haue written Wherefore I haue not estéemed and thoughte that to bée a thinge inconuenient nor vnworthy of remembraunce which we our selues and our fathers are witnesses Also I haue put the quotations of the authours in the margents out of whome I haue taken that which I haue alleaged to the ende it should not appeare that I haue inuented them of mine owne head aswell of the Philosophers Poets Historiographers as Doctors Questionaries Sophisters as of the auncient Doctors of the Church and holy Scriptures FINIS ¶ THE ARGVMENT AND SVMME of the first Dialogue IN this first part and first Dialogue I doe amply entreat of the matters which concerne those that be deceased declaring the errours abuses superstitions which are committed about them and the false and diuerse opinions which haue bene and yet are among men aswel touching the estate of the bodies as of the soules And of hell Limbus patrum and of Purgatorie And how that which the supersticious Christians do about the dead is nothing at all lyke vnto the woord of God but is altogether taken of the Infidells Panims And for to
enter into the matter I bring in the persons who take their theame and matter vpon a fermon which they heard of an holy father entreating of such matters And although the matter might seeme wholy to be fayned yet it hath the foundacion vppon a true history For mine intent is partly in this first disputacion to rebuke the sottish and vayne curiositie of foolish Preachers and Doctors who haue forsaken the principal points of the holy Scripture to occupy thēselues vpō vnprofitable questions vayne contemplations to enquire of things that they cannot know and which wee haue not to doe withall And which serue to none other ende but to hinder and let the poore Christian people to seeke out the will of God to induce and lead them to false religion supersticion Idolatay and all Paganisme Also I declare the Arguments of the Popes Purgatorie with the Purgatorie of the Panims and the ceremonies and supersticions which they vse about the dead out of what spring they issued and what haue bene the purgations of the Panims which the Idolatrous Christians do yet keepe and how the Papisticall Purgatory hath serued the insatiable auarice of those which doe lyue to destroy and deuoure all the poore world Also how the priests Purgatorie is burned how fire hath taken the same and what punishment is prepared for those which go vnto strange fire to be purged from their sinnes any other then the fire of lesus Christ and how the priests do disagree both from the word of God and from their owne doctrine decrees and cannōs After those things we shal enter into the secōd part which shall entreat of the appearing of the spirites of those that be dead All these things shal be yet more playnly vnderstoode and better confirmed by the Dialogues following of the which the last shal be of the immortalitie of the soules and the resurrection of the flesh Afterwardes we will come vnto the lyuing and in the other parts wee shall enter into matters yet more graue more necessary and of greater importance for the present time to shew what is the estate of the world of relygion and by what meanes that man which feareth God and the poore troubled and doubtfull consciences may be assured and know what is the true Church the truth and wherevnto they may surely stay themselues and how they may be certeine what doctrine is of god I haue intituled this first Dialogue the Alchymee of Purgatory chiefely for two causes The first bicause I declare how the auncient Panims and our priests after their example doe trauayle to extract the fifte essence of the soules which they melt in their furnaces of Purgatory The other is bicause from those furnaces our priests do drawe out the Philosophicall stone ¶ For to enter then into the matter Hillary beginneth asking his companions of the Sermon which they heard ¶ THE FIRST DIALOGVE which is called the Alchymee of Purgatorie The Speakers Hillarius Eusebius Theophilus Thomas HIllarius If mine eyes haue not deceiued mée I thinke I saw you all thrée to day at the Sermon wherefore I desire to know your opinions how the same pleased you and what you thinke of the Preacher Eusebius As far as I can iudge I thinke that he is very skilfull and cloquent for he hath spoken very learnedly and deepely of matters so obscure and profounde Hillarius He could not speake more profoundly For he hath pearced euen vnto y very centre of the earth therfore I am the more abashed that he spake so cléerly of matters so obscure and of these darke places no man euer saw ought For the Sunne neuer shineth there Theophilus As far as I could perceiue by him I thinke that eyther he hath not bene in those places of which he spake or els if he were it is long agoe If the opinion of Isydore be true we shall haue very small occasion to giue credite to this ghostly father and to his preachinge Eusebius Hath Isydore ben of an other opinion then the rest of the Christian Doctors touching this matter Theophilus There is none among the Christians which doubteth that there is an hell seeing that the holy Scripture rendereth so sure and vndoubtefull a testimony with the which we ought to content our selues not willyng to know any further then it hath reuealed it vnto vs It ought to suffice vs which Iesus Christ witnesseth vnto vs that there is an hell of eternall vnquenchable fire where the worme dieth not but wher ther is euerlasting horrour weeping gua hing of teeth we need not to enquire of the place for I thinke ther is none which desireth to go thether And therfore we haue néede to praye vnto GOD that it woulde please him to giue vs his grace to know his will and to be able to accomplish it thorow his sonne Iesus Christ to the ende we may auoide that hell fire and extreme darkenesse We néede not much to stay to know in what place hell is whether it is in the centre of y earth according to the common opinion of the Doctors of Plato which saith y it is in the depth of the earth or whether it is vnder the earth in the country of the Antipodes according to the opinion of Isydore who sayth that after the day of iudgement the Sunne and the Moone shall kéepe themselues so stedfaste in heauen that they shall no more tourne round about the earth but giue their lyght and brightnesse onely in that part of the world in y which we dwell and that the damned shal be all sent away vnder the earth into those horrible darkenesse and into those places in the which at this day some men doe thinke that the Antipodes doe dwell Hillarius If it were so that the Sunne and the Moone doth nowe shine there wée maye thinke that some one of the countrye of the Antipodes is come from thence who hath declared and described to our Preacher the scituacion of hell of Lymbo patrum and of Purgatory with al their confines in such sort and manner as he hath expounded them vnto vs. Thomas You may saye what you will and I will beléeue what pleaseth mée but I cannot thinke that he was euer there or that hée hath euer heard any one speake that came from thence hath so well visited all the places theroff For neuer in my lyfe I hearde it better deuised There is neyther hall chamber nor closet cole-panne kitchin nor seller chimney nor pot-hangers great caudron nor lyttle caudron chaynes nor flesh-hookes and other insernall vtensills but that he hath described and set them foorth so lyuely as mée thinketh I sée the thinges before mine eyes in such sort that yet I am afrayde when I thinke on them The Cyrographers and Notaryes are very dilygent and curious for to expresse declare in their instruments and writings the situacion lymtis of houses and possessions of which they make writings off But
of the holy Scriptures is sufficient for vs yet this ought further to moue vs to confound the Infidlls when we doe see the vertue of the truth to be so puissaunt and of such force that it constrayneth Philosophers Poets and others who haue bene ignorant of the knowledge of God to confesse it and to beare witnesse thereoff Thomas But me thinkes that our Priests and Monks do much differ from Plato Virgile in y they do lodge y richest people and the great Princes and Lords sooner in Purgatory then in Hel. Hillarius Do you not know the cause There came no profite vnto Plato nor Virgile of the Purgatory as commeth vnto those beléeue that although they had any profite they were of a better conscience and that for their owne perticuler gayne they would not haue so seduced the poore ignorant people For they do shew foorth by their writings that they had a certeyne feare and knowledge of God more then we may acknowledge in these our priestes For they watche after the deade bodyes as the Rauens doe vppon carrion And if they can méete with any dead man that hath his purse well stuffed with money wherewith hée is able to paye his raunsome they will be sure to make him tell who hath eaten the fat they will put him in such a place from whence hee cannot come out before they haue taken some fat from him For they are the tyrants of tyrants and the pillers of the great pillers and Vsurers whom they will not suffer to be broiled and tormented of the Diuells but they will be their hangmen themselues take away that office from them to whom God hath giuen it Thomas They shal be theÌ„ much tormeÌ„ted by this accompt For they shal be cruelly handled in this world and also in the other after their death as they haue vexed b tormented y worlde whilst they were alyue And suffer them not notwithstanding to fall into y hands of the Diuells But I would gladly know what payne the other haue that haue committed smaller sinnes Hillarius Plato and Virgile do lodge these in Purgatory especially the simple people which haue not bene of great credite and authoritie Wherefore they could not haue so great lycence to doe euill as the others And if they had committed any fault they had not the power so much to hurt the people as the others had For the sinnes of the Princes doe not hurt onely themselues But as well by them as by their euill example they doe hurte and destroye all the worlde where the simple people doe hurt but themselues And therefore they did thinke that their sins were sanable and that they might be purged For that cause they condemned them not vnto eternall dampuation For they thought y they had not committed euils inough for to be damned that ther was some remedie to be healed Also they lodged them not at y first dash in y fields of bliseas as the other great and vertuous men who thorowe their vertue haue merited to be incontinently receiued into blessednesse and toye or in the number of Gods. Thomas Those then which were good people and which had not the power to doe so euill as the other doe go into Purgatory against their wils Neuertheles I am sure that God will not held them excused therfore For â—e regardeth the heart will and the affections and not onely the workes as the Philosophers doe Our priests differ not much from that opinion For they Cannonise lodge among the Saints those whome they doe iudge to haue bene most vertuous and holyest and the soules perfectly good the which doe fly straight into heauen and haue no néede of our good déedes Hillarius That is to wéete the most greatest Hypocrites superstitious and Idolaters those which haue done most for them and that haue best nourished and fed their fat bellyes Thomas They doe lodge in Purgatory those who haue not accomplished héere their penaunce which neuerthelesse dyed confessed and repentaunt or which do not carry deadly sinne with them but onely veniall sinnes the which may be purged by the fire For there is some remedy for those Hillarius Such is their doctrine But notwithstanding when it commeth to triall they neyther haue regarde to mortall nor yet veniall sinnes but sooner to the riches or to the pouertie It is all one with them whether the sinnes be mortall or veniall sanable or insanable so that the dead hath wherewith to paye their drougs medicines money for his raunsome and letters of grace that they make for them by their buls and pardons And as touching the poore of whome they haue no profite it is to them all one whether they go be it into Paradise Hell or Purgatory For they haue no care of the soules but onely of their purses Thomas I haue yet one thing to demaunde of thée Doe they say that there is fire in y Poets Purgatory as there is in y of the priests Hillarius It séemeth to mée that y Poets are a lyttle more reasonable and more merciful then the priests and Monks For they make not such broyling and rosting of the poore soules Thomas How then Hillarius Bicause that they haue assigned the payne a little easier and lyghter according to euery ones misdéedes For they condempne not all generally to y fire But they do make thrée differences according to the greatnesse and smalnesse of sinnes Those that haue sinned most grieuously and which are most full and stuffeâ— with sinnes and which are most earthly and most hardest to be purged béeing so harde glewed and tyed to the soule that it cannot be pluckt away nor made cleane by no meanes but thorow the fire are put and cast into the hot furnace For they must be melted all new agayne The other that are not altogether so filthy vile and that haue not their sinnes so glewed in the soule that one cannot pul them away are holden for a certeine time within the great goulfes of water for to be there washed and made cleane Ther are yet others y are lesse faultie and guyltie which haue committed but certeyne small sins that hath no neede of such strong purgation And therefore they are hanged but a lyttle in the ayre for to winde them For they néede but to haue a lytle winde for to blowe away the dust that cleaueth fast to the soule bicause of the coniunction that it hath with his body and his fleshe Thomas As farre as I perceiue they doe with the soules in that Purgatorye as we doe with our apparayle sheetes vessell and mettall For when we haue any clothes or shéetes that are dustie or whereof we doubt the Moths and Wormes we stretch them abroad and hang them vppon a pearch in the ayre for to winde and cleane them And if ther be any spot or staine that will not easely come out we wash them with water
that are aliue And the first thing that we must haue when one dyeth are the torches to leade hym to hye graue And all the yeare after wée must haue Candels lighted vpon his Sepulcher and after to offer them vnto the Priestes Hillarius It is bicause they sée not Thomas Whom do you meane the Priests or those that bée dead Hillarius Both the one the other We cannot deny but that the dead bodyes haue lost their sight that they are in darkenesse as touching their body But neuerthelesse the shining and brightnesse of the torches serueth them to no pourpose I thincke also that the soule hath no neede of them For if it goe into Paradise it hath the Angels to carry it thether as the soule of Lazarus was carryed by the Angels into Abrahams bosome For that hath light inough and the Angels also wyth the brightnesse of god Wherefore they haue not to doe wyth our light that cannot serue for the soule but for the body onely If the soule goe into hell there are guides inough for to bring it thether and it is not nowe necessary that we do giue light to it It hath the Angels of Sathan altogether contrarie to the other Angels to carry it thether Thomas But if it go into Purgatory for that it is so déep hath it no néede of light for to conduct them through those darke places Hillarius If that which they saye bée true there is fire inough without putting any more vnto it And if that fire bée not sufficient for them I thincke that the light of our torches cannot giue light there For if the Sunne beames and his brightnesse cannot enter and pearce through what may wée hope of our fire You may then vnderstande by these reasons that all these lights serue nothinge at all for the dead nor profite them neither for the body nor yet the soule It must be then that they doe profite the Priestes or els it is a lost labour But wherein can they serue for them For if they bee blinde and that the Sunne light helpeth them not no more shall they see by the illumination of the torches and candels If they doe see cléere inough they haue no néede for the cléerenesse of the Sunne ought to suffice them except they buryed them in the nyght as the Panims dyd bury the poore that had not money to pay for their funerall pompe Thomas It must then bée that they are eyther madde out of their wyt or els that they would shew by the same that those that do such things are fooles and depriued of all vnderstanding Hillarius I thincke that they would do as Diogenes did who at noone dayes lighted a candle and did séeke for men in the middle of the Market wyth a lanterne Thomas To what pourpose dyd hée the same Hillarius For to make men to vnderstande that they were beastes wythout reason and vnderstanding and that hée had much a doe to finde men that is to saye wyse men both of wit and iudgement although hée sought them with a lanterns Should hée not haue more occasion to doe the same nowe at this present time For to what ende do all those lights serue but for to declare that we are the successours of the Panims who after the same sort vsed torches and candels at the burials and funerals of their dead For we haue not read in all the holy Scriptures that euer the true seruauntes of God haue lighted candels for the dead Nor that they were euer in such superstition Also we néed not to doubt but that the holy Water wherewith wée sprinkle the graues of the dead is also taken of the immitation of the Panims Theophilus I doubt it not It is very true that the auncient people of God had certeine washings certeine baptismes for their purifications not that they did thinck that the filthinesse and vncleanenesse of the soule conscience could be washed made cleane by the water corruptible Elements For sith that the soule is a spirit it must haue a spirituall purgation agreeing to his nature and not corporall Thomas What profit then do they receiue of such ceremonies Theophilus They did the same for to testifie witnesse that they were sinners polluted vncleane and that they had need of a purgation the which they could not finde in themselues but muste séeke it of others Forasmuch then as they acknowledge themselues sinners and in makinge open confession by those exteriour and outwarde washings and do witnesse that the bloude of Iesus Christ was necessarie for them for the washinge awaye of their sins they pleased by that obedience and confession God and by the faith that they had in Iesus Christ â—figured by those ceremonies and sacramentes whom they did looke for to bée their Sauiour They did truely communicate the bloud of Iesus which for them ought to haue bene shed as wée doe by the baptisme sauing but that wée had all things more excellent then they But wée doe not finde that they euer baptized the dead nor sprinkled their Sepulchres with coniured Water Hillarius Wée reade that the heathen Priestes vsed in their purgations the water of the sea with which they sprinckled that which they would purge Of which Proclus that noble Philosopher the Platonist yeldeth the reason saying that such water hath the propertie to purge bicause it is salt and that the salt hath in it some portion of the fire and holdeth somewhat of his Nature That same maketh mée to thincke that our Priestes for that same cause dyd put salte in their holy Water For before they dyd coniure the Water they dyd first coniure the salte and after dyd put it into the Water Thomas They dyd it after the example of Eliseus Theophilus But Eliseus dyd not cast the salt into the water for to coniure the Diuels there wyth but hath done it for to purge and make it cleane bicause that it was infected and poisoned so much y none could drincke of it And notwithstanding that Eliseus dyd put salte in it yet neuerthelesse the salt of his nature had not the propertie to correct and amend the corruption of the Water if the vertue of God had not wrought and done it nuraculously As it is declared by the applications of the thinges which Iesus Christ vsed as in putting the spittle vpon the tongues of those that were dumme for to make them speake or vpon the eyes of the blinde for to make them see or wythin the eares of those that were deafe for to make them heare not bicause that hée coulde not dooe that wythout suche applications as hée hath very well declared in a great many other of his woorkes For howe oftentimes hath hée healed them in touching them onely either by the hand as the leapers or by y gowne as y woman which was diseased with the issue of bloude and others without either séeing
of them which Dauid hath written of his enemies saying their throat is an open sepulchre And that which Esay speaketh off saying hell gapeth and openeth hir mouth meruailous wide For of all that they can once lay hand on nothing euer retourneth againe no more then from the mouth of hell and graue But which is worse the graue consumeth deuoureth but the dead bodies but these do deuour both the quick the dead And we may very wel say y these are the Harpyes of whom Virgile maketh mention off But bicause they are faire and goodly sepulchres as the Scribes Pharises who do neuer cease to crye Corban Corban giue giue offer offer and as the daughter of the Horseléech Bringe bringe to the candles of the good Sainct Bicause they are so beautifull pollished without y poore world cannot know theÌ„ although they do sée them deuoure eate vp widowes houses before their eies vnder colour of long praiers For they haue those goodly habites of religion goodly Ornaments Ceremonies goodly names titles and that goodly appearaunce of holinesse which do couer beautifie those sepulchres tombes in such sort that men cannot perceiue the filthinesse infection that is there hidden and kepte close within but passe ouer it without any aduisement as men doe by the Sepulchres Theophilus They are more open and dyscouered then néede required For GOD hathe nowe raysed vppe a people whome they woulde not haue who haue in suche sorte remoued all that filthe and infectyon that it stincketh throughoute the whole worlde And we must not be abashed if they call them the Sepulchers of Iesus Christ and though they doe meruaylously stincke sith that Iesus Christ is altogether deade in them and to them and that they haue nothing at all For if Christ lyue not in vs what other thing can wée bee but dead carryons stincking and infectious who doe not onely rotte and consume themselues but doe rotte and consume with them all other things Eusebius All of you doe cry out agaynst the Priestes Haue you now all sayd It was not inough for Hillarie to speake euill and backebite but that you must ayde and helpe him Theophilus and meddle also as well as hée Theophilus You neuer sawe a man that delyteth lesse to speake euill and backebite and to heare euill speakinge and tales But truth constrayneth mee and you oughte to vnderstande that to speake truth for the health of ones neighbour is not to speake euill backebite and slaunder any man Would to God I coulde speake as much good of them as of the Apostles For I doe loue better to praise their vertue charitie and mercy then to dispise their vices crueltie auarice and rapacitie But what will you that I speake If I doe sée a poore man who is wandring alone in a forrest or woode full of théeues am not I bounde to giue him warning of the daunger he is lyke to fall in If I say nothing vnto him am not I guyltie of his death sith that I knew the daunger And if I encourage him to enter and tell him that there is no daunger am not I then more culpable and worthy to be taken for a murtherer of my poore brother But if I doe admonish him of the daungers and of the théeues Doe I wrong vnto the theenes in callyng them by their name Shoulde I doe better and according to Gods commaundemet to call them good people for to saue their honour and that I should put my brother into their handes to haue them to cutte his throate What goodnesse can I finde in those who from the greatest to y least are al excommunicated iudged Simoniacks and Heretickes vnworthy of all Ecclesiasticall honour and office not onely by the authoritie of the holy Scriptures but also by their owne councells decrées and Canons For how many Councells Decrées and Canons be there that doe forbid to demaunde and take giftes rewardes presents hire or siluer nor any thing whatsoeuer it bée for creame baptisme orders laying on of hands for y earth nor Sepulture neyther for Sacraments nor whatsoeuer office is in the Church vnder payne of excommunication and to be holden and reputed Simoniackes Heretickes and Sacriledgers and depriued and deposed from theire offices and honours and not onely they that receiue the money but also those who doe giue it for such things Thomas There shall be then by that compte no Christian who shall not be excommunicated For among the priests there is not one but hath receiued money for such thinges nor among the people but hath disbursed somewhat Theophilus Therefore you may consider what communion may be in y Popish Church For Saint Peter did not only curse in the authoritie of God Symon the Sorcerer of whome Simony and Simoniackes haue taken their name but also the money that he offred for to buy the gifte of God withall Now if Symon for offering y money hath receiued such malediction what ought it to be vppon them that doe cleane contrary to Saynt Peter who doe not onely receiue but also doe compell the poore people to giue it them I doe not héereby meane that the true Euangelycall Priests and true Pastors of the Church are not worthy of their nourishment and rewarde But I speake agaynst those Merchaunts which are in the Church of God whom Saynt Peter hath forespoken who haue both GOD and the Diuill to sell Paradise â—nd Hell holy things and prophane things and which doe exercise merchandises of all things and are polluted and dâ—filâ—d with all Simonie and Sacriledges that they themselues haue bene constrayned to condemone them And he that will not beléeue me lette him read Platine in the lyues of the Popes and the decrees of the Councell of Elybertine holden in Spayne in the time of Constantine and that of Tholet holden in the yeare 713 and that of Calcedone And the 4. of Carthage And the Councell of Tiburien and Varensian who doe condempne namely those that take money for the buryalls saying after this manner Wherefore dost thou sell the earth Remember that thou art earth and into the earth shalt retourne agayne For the earthe is not mans but as the Psalmist Dauid witnesseth the earth is the Lords and all that therein is If thou doe sell the earth thou shalt be holden guyltie of larcenie as he that attributeth vnto himselfe the thing of an other mans Thou hast receyued it of God fréely giue it fréely And bicause it is altogether forbidden to all Christians to sell the earth vnto the dead and to deny vnto them the graue and burial which is due vnto them Item we must commaunde according to the authoritie of the Canons that one should not demaunde or receiue any thing for mens burialls nor for their graues And hée that would sée the opinion of Gregorie lette him reade the Epistle wherein he rebuked Ianuarius Bishop
bée not sadde For that should be Stoique like and of men he woulde make stones and blockes of woode without any affection But the doctrine of the Gospell importeth not the same For although that the Gospell of Iesus Christ doth correct and mortefie the wicked affections of the flesh yet neuerthelesse it depriueth nor spoileth man from all humaine affection but amendeth onely that which is vicious thorow the naturall corruption procéeding from the sinne of man It is impossible that we can be wout dolour sorrow although wée would when we do sée the afflictions and miseries of our brethren béeing of our flesh and bloud The holy Scripture hath not condemned the sorrow and heauinesse that Abraham conceiued for the death of Sara his wife Isaac of his mother Ioseph of his father Iacob The Disciples of S. Iohn of Iesus Christ of s Steuen of s Iames of the teares the they haue shed of the sorrow that they made For man cannot be man without béeing moued to pittie and compassion séeinge the calamities of others féeling the damage that he himselfe receiueth Therefore S. Paul speaketh very sharply when he sayd that the faithfull shoulde not bée sorrowfull as the Panims and Infidels who haue no hope of the resurrection Sith then that he condemneth the dooinges of the Panims we ought not to kepe them except we would be rather counted Panims then Christians It ought then to suffice vs to bury honestly the bodies of the dead and to put them in the earth as in their bed tarrying and lookinge for the comming of Iesus Christ and the generall resurrection of all fleshe Therefore the Christians doe call the place that is appointed for their buriall Cimiterium bycause that it is as the bed couch and dortoire of the faythfull that be dead And therefore it is good to haue some certeine honest and comely place as a common repository of the Christians and publike witnesse of the resurrection of the flesh For we should doe great wronge vnto our bodyes which are the temple of God in whom God dwelleth and which haue bene consecrated and made holy through the bloude of Iesus Christ vnto his honour and glory and dedicated vnto the immortall inheritage of his kingdome if wée doe cast them to dogges fowles and wilde beastes as she carryon of wilde and brute beastes as though they should liue no more after they were dead and bée no pertaker of the immortalitie no more then beastes Their bodies ought to be more déere vnto vs and more ioyned and knit vnto vs then their apparell as Basile witnesseth For that cause the Patriarches and true seruauntes of God were praised and namely Thoby not for that they caused singing praiers offering for the dead and in spending their substaunce without necessitie vpon the dead But bicause they haue deliuered them againe to the earth their mother from whom they came out and that they haue so honoured them by their burying without sparing that which was necessary for the bodyes of the seruaunts of God for whom he was glorified And the Panims themselues were greatly afraide to suffer those to lye vnburied who haue liued honestly and did not depriue but those who thorow dispaire did kill themselues as yet vnto this day it is ordained by the Canons But the Panims oftentimes doe but cut off the hand that committed the fact iudgeing it vnworthy to be buried with the body to whom it hath done violence Also in some places they do punish with such insamy those that commit sacriledge and that kill their fathers and mothers and others that haue committed such execrable crimes notwithstanding that the Hebrewes after that they had satisfied to Iustice buryed them and would not suffer that the buriall should be denied not to the enimies as Iosephus witnesseth And the Lord by his Prophet declareth vnto the tyrant of Babilon that he shall haue no place to be buryed in And threateneth Ioachim that he shall be buried among the Asses bicause of his infidelitie and tyranny Hillarius The Panims had some appearaunce to doe that vsed not such crueltie as our Priests who for default of money do refuse the buriall not onely vnto the olde folke but also to the little Infāts And how many times doth it happen that they haue excōmunicated some poore labourer or busbādmā for twētie or thirtie soubs yea for thrée if he do die being so excōmunicated by thē hauing not wherwith to pay they haue denied him the place to be buried with the other christiās or els he must buy it déerly And yet neuerthelesse there Canons deny not that Churchyard but to those who are no Christiās or who do kill thēselues or to those the haue ben killed in doing some wicked acte as adultry larceny murder Iewish playes I am greatly abashed where they we haue had the vnderstāding S. Paul Moses do forbid vs expresly to be cōfirmable to the imitatiōs of the Panims Idolatrers it that in dispite of them wée haue not taken any other myrrour nor haue studied in any other thing For what difference is there betwéene our funerals and buryals theirs Haue not we the Bels in stéede of the Minstrels that the Panims had And euen as they had the Minstrelles that were best allowed according to the estate and condition of the persons so haue we the Bels Priests Monks When there dyeth any Prince or noble man or rich man that hath well wherewith to pay they will bury him with the trumpet with many torches with great pomp procession with a great company of Minstrels and of men and women for to singe wéepe and lament about him as it doth wel appeare by the discription that Virgile made of the burying and funerals of Pallas the sonne of king Euander sayinge that after that hée was knowen to be dead in the Citie and that the Citizens dyd vnderstand that men dyd bringe the body and that it was already at hand did as followeth Th'archadians most sodeinly vnto the gates then came Holding the torches funerals already for the same According to their olde fashion their guise and eke custome And euery one his torch did light that serued in that rome Marching so well before the herse by order on a row That there vvas none among them all out of order did show Giuing such great a shining light the vvay the vvhich they went With the dead corps pomp so great vvhich to his graue him sent That all a farre and round about the fieldes that are full faire Did giue such light and seruent heat which flamed in the aire And in an other place speaking of the wéepings lamentations done ouer the dead saith Euen to the heauens assended is of men the dolefull cry And eke the sound of the trumpets lamenting pitiously And hesids all these things the rich men were
only exhortatioÌ„n admâ—nitions consclatioÌ„s for the health and saluation of those that be aliue After that manner ought we to vnderstand that whiche the auncient Ecclesiasticall doctors haue written of the faythfull that dye and of the care that we ought to haue of them And if peraduenture it be so that Sainct Ambrose Crisostome Cyprian Hierome Augustine or any other the like doe séeme to haue written otherwise yet neuerthelesse they will not allow such superstition as is at this day amonge the Christians And although they should haue done it yet we are not bound to belâ—eue them without the authoritye of the Scripture We are most certaine of our side that there is no place in all the holy scripture by which one can proue that manner of dooing except one will marre and peruert the sence thereof And for to declare the same more playnly I demaund of thée what the Priestes do in the name of the dead doe they it for those whiche are in hell Eusebius Thou mayst well perceiue they doe it not For they themselues do sing that in hell there is no redemption as it is playnly declared vnto vs by the aunswer that Abraham made vnto the wicked ryche man saying that there is a greate space betwéene those whiche are in the places of blessednesse and those whiche are in hell fire vnto whom the riche cannot haue somuch only as one droppe of water for to put vpon his toungue for to coole it Theophilus Haue those who are alreadye in Paradise with the blessed any profit of their suffrages and prayers Eusebius They haue no more néede of them Theophilus And yet neuerthelesse they pray not but for those that be there and I will take none other witnes then themselues to proue it I pray thée consider and examine wel the Epistle taken out of the Reuclation of S. Iohn which they sing in their Masse for the dead marke viligently howe it agréeth with their Lugentibus in Purgatorio And how is it possible that the faithfull that dye should be rosted and tormented in Purgatorye and that they should be at rest as they sing both the one and the other speaking against themselues They sing Blessed are those which hereafter dye in our Lorde euen so saith the spirite that they do rest from their laboures But theyr workes shall follow them First they say Blessed are they which dye in the lord And who be those that dye in the Lord but the good faithfull and the Christians If they then are blessed all the other which do not dye in the fayth of our Lord are cursed Eusebius I denie it not Theophilus Wherein consisteth that blessednesse and felicitie doth not Sainct Iohn giue the reason alleaging not his authority but the authority of he spirite of God that he himselfe hath heard saying hereafter they rest from their laboures Thou doest well perceiue that they are called blessed bicause that by death they go and depart from the trauayles and wickednesse of this world and after the same doe go into eternall rest and ioy Syth then that it is so what neede they anye longer to sing Requiem eternam dona eis domine O Lord giue them eternall rest syth that they haue it alreadye For they doe not pray but for those which are dead in our Lord. Eusebius Thou interpretest the scripture for thine aduauntage and as it pleaseth thée Hillarius Eusebius is always a good Gregorianist But I do greatly feare y he shall not escape Purgatory in the ende Eusebius You shall not yet plucke it out of my handes for all that For Sainct Iohn speaketh there properly of the faithfull which haue suffred and which haue bene killed for the witnes of the truth For those haue suffred sufficiently in this world and haue had their Purgatorie and accomplisned their penaunce He speaketh not generally of all the Christians but only of the Martirs whom the greate beast hath persecuted Theophilus I agree vnto thee that the holy spirit speaketh that chiefely for the consolation of the poore that be afflicted whiche suffer persecution for the name of Iesus promising vnto them rest after the trauayles and wickednesse of this mortall life for to fortefie and strengthen them in the crosse to that end they may be more patient in tribulation and that they shoulde perseuer and continue boldlye and stedfastly vnto the ende But you can not denye but y the sentence is generall and that it comprehendeth all the faithfull For they cannot bee faithfull without bearing rightly the crosse of Iesus Christ and without hauing great paine and trauayle after whiche they looke for rest And least thou shouldest thinke that I haue alledged that place euill to the purpose I will tell thée yet farther that it maketh not onelye Purgatorie to fall downe but also the inuocation of Saincts For sith that rost from their labours is promised vnto the Saincts and that the prayers whiche the holy men make for their neighboures whilest they are in this life are comprised and contayned amongst the laboures of the sainctes we may conclude that â—fter that they haue ended the course of this mortall life and finished their combat that they rest them that laboure as well as the other For they haue no more neede but to prayse God and to giue him thankes and oughte no more to be occupied for to serue men sith that they are out of all necessitie and that they haue ended the ministry that they had amonge menne At the leastwise althoughe that it bee wée haue not in all the holy scripture example nor yét authority for to endure and léad vs to inuâ—cate them But we haue not now to debate vpon that poynt I haue onelye desired to touche the same by the waye As to the other matter touch 〈◊〉 Purgatory for to take front thee that fantasie whiche thou haue againstâ— my interpretation I will confyrme it vnto thée by the verye interpretatyou of the Priestes taken from the chiefest of the Canon of theyr Masse Marke well the Memento that they saye when they sing Masse for the dead Hillarius Peraduenture hoe will not heare thée bicause he is altayd to be excommunicatod And also helâ— daâ—e you recyte itâ— For you know verye well that it is forbidden vnder paine of excommunication to all those that bée not Priestes to reade the Canon and to recyte it Theophilus Aswell is the Alcoran of Mahomet vnder paine of death But I will not be a frayd to read it for all that if I had it For I buylde my selfe vpon S. Paul which sayth Cramine all things and kéepe that whiche is good Thomas But it is otherwise of the Canon of the Masse for it is to be feared that if the lay people shoulde heare the sacramentall wordes pronounced they woulde doe as the Priest and that thereby would come greate hurte As Clythoueus doth declare and witnes moste euidently in his Clucidatory by the example
y thou hast not forgotten it That followeth afterwards which thou hast said of y menseruaunts maidseruaunts which haue gone before vs with the signe of faith do rest in the sléep of peace Theophilus Thou séest already Eusebius for whoÌ„ they pray to wit for those of whoÌ„ S. Iohn speaketh off in the Apocalips which are dead in our Lord rest froÌ„ their labours For to dye in our Lord to go with y signe of faith to rest from their labours to rest in the sléepe of peace is all one And Clithoue himselfe is constrained to expounde those woordes by the same of Saint Iohn Wherefore thou maist know that they doe praye but for those which are already in Paradise For there are none other whiche doo rest in the sléepe of peace but those It followeth then that they doe also pray for y virgin Mary and for all the Saintes of Paradise Now let vs heare what thing they require for them Wée beséech thée that it would please thoe to graunt vnto them and vnto all those that rest in Christ place of comfort lyghte and peace If they rest in Iesus Christ are they not already in place of comfort lyght and peace Otherwyse I know not what it is to rest in Iesus Christe seeinge that it is written That although that the righteous be ouertaken wyth death yet shall he be in reste If they be in a fire as the wycked rich man of whom thou hast spoken that they doe burne as they make vs beléeue what difference is there betwéene them and the dampned Thou knowest very well that Lazarus who was in Abrahams bosome and who rested in the sléepe of peace bicause that he was departed from this world with the signe of faith that he had in the promises made vnto Abraham of the séede of blessednesse was in a place far differing from the other in which he rested in ioy pleasures and delights For if after that the faythfull be called fâ—oÌ„ this world he wero kept in the fire in what rest should he be froÌ„ his laboures Should he not be in worse estate then he was before Hillarius After that I haue laboured al the day haue much sweated it I must go into a furnase when I should go to bed for to rest my selfe in y same al night I woulde neuer go to bed Theophilus But where should be the promise of Iesus Christ who hath said so oftentimes Hée y beléeueth in me hath euerlasting life and shall not come into condempnation but hath passed from death vnto life And that which S. Paul saide now then there is no condempnation to thé that are in Christ Iesus which walke not after y flesh but after the spirit Eusebius That is not repugnant For those which are in purgatory are alredy assured that they shall not be dampned But they shal haue eternal life after y they haue satisfieâ— for their sins Theophilus Sith that there is such punishment it must néedes bée that it hath iudgement and condemnation For God punisheth not without iudgeing And I knowe not how wée can make y opinion agree with so many goodly promises which God hath made vnto vs by his Prophetes and by all the holy Scriptures nor yet with that whiche the Priests themselues doe singe in the prose of the deade which beginneth Dies irae dies illa soluet seculum c. They doe say in a little verse O king of reuerent maiesty which sauest all soules freely From euill Lord deliuer me thou fountaine of all clemencie They céerely and plainely confesse that wée are saued through grace and doe vse thys aduerbe Gratis which signifieth froely and franckly Wherein they doe very well agrée to that which Sainct Paul witnesseth saying You are iustified fréely by his grace That is not then by our woorkes and satisfactions For then were grace no more grace I doe much meruayle how that good woorde escaped them Hillarius I thincke that the same chaunsed bicause of the rime for to make all rime in Atis. For in the first verse there is Rex tremende maiestatis And for to make all to be in Atis they haue sayd Qui saluandos saluas gratis Salua me sons pietatis Theophilus Now do those satisfactions agrée with that that the Lorde promised sayinge if the vngodlye will tourne away from all his sinnes that hée hath done they shall not be thought vppon any more Also though our sins shal be as red as scarlet purple or y worme that coÌ„meth out of the earth he will make them as white as woll the snow and will caste all our sinnes behinde his backe and wyll putte them as farre as Dauid witnesseth as the East is from the West and wyll cast them in the bottome of the sea Eusebius Wherefore then reserued he yet paines vnto Dauid after that the faulte was pardoned him insomuch that he was driuen from his kingdome by his owne sonne Absalom Wherefore punished chastised he him after that the Prophet Nathan had declared vnto him the remission of his sinne Theophilus When God chastised Dauid when he chastiseth vs euery day bicause of our sinnes he doth it not so much for the sinne which hath bene committed as for to aouertise and admonish vs that we do not sinne heereafter And the paine that we beare is not for to satisfie god For ther is none other satisfaction then the death passion of Iesus Christ that he can allow to be sufficient For if we must satisfie for our selues we must beare cary all the importable burthen of the wrath and iudgement of god Now if we must beare them there is none of vs but should haue his shoulders broken and should be plunged drowned in the goulfe bottome of hell with the Diuels For if the Angels could not beare it which of vs shall be sufficient which are but wormes of the earth And wherfore did God our good father send vs Iesus Christ to helpe vs but to that end that he would beare it satisfie for vs that thorow his satisfaction we should be reconciled vnto God deliuered from his iudgement Seing then that God our father hath the satisâ—action of Iesus Christ his sonne which is more then sufficient for vs all he requireth for vs none other satisfaction And if hee require good woorkes of vs he requireth them not for satisfaction for they are too insufficient But for prayses and giuing of thanckes and wytnesses of our faith of the remembraunce that wee haue of the benefites that hoe hathe gyuen vnto vs in his sonne Iesus Christ and for to incite our bretheren for to prayse and magniste hym Therefore sayde Iesus Christe vnto hys Dysciples Let your lyght so shine before men that they maye sée your good woorkes and glorifie your Father which is in heauen Hée sayde not to the
heape of fooles who demaunded a forme shape of the soules and did thincke that they did retourne Upon which he saith From thence by his accompt the lake of Auernus is not farre off from whence some do saye that the soules doe come in a blacke shadow after that the gate of Acheron is opened and that from thence came foorth the Images and figures of the dead men with false bloude Notwythstandinge the same they woulde that those Images and visions shoulde speake the which they cannot doe without a tongue mouth and throate or wythout strength figure of lyuer ribs And although they sée nothing by apprehension of vnderstāding they would y those figures of the dead should be represented before their eies Although y Cicero rebuked y opiniō of those yet neuerthelesse they do not accord very euil with y theology of your Doctours Wherefore thou oughtest to coutent thy selfe with my solution or if thou wilt haue a better propound the question in Sorbonne and if the Doctors cannot absolue it let them condemne the bookes of Barleta and of other lyke dreamers forbid the Moonkes to reade their Sermons full of blasphemy rather then the holy Scriptures and the bookes that they iudge to be full of heresies onely bycause that they doo contayne truth and which condemne their abuse Theophilus They will not doe so For the other do cause the water to come better to their mil. Moses witnesseth that Pyson the one of the foure flouds of the terrestryall Paradise bringeth golde with his waues But those will haue nothing to doe with the flouds of Paradise nor of the golde that they bringe which is a great deale more precious then that which they drawe from their internal flouds the which they preferre before those bicause of the greate riches and treasures that they drawe there out Hillarius There is no Prince vpon the earth whiche getteth or draweth so much out of the flouds nor mines as they haue That is none of the golde which Tagus the floud of Portingale bringeth with his sandes Or Pactolus of Lydia Or Ganges of India Or Hebrus of Thracia Or Padus of Italy Or Orcus whiche is in the country of Taurine in Piedmont All the golde that those flouds haue is nothing in comparisō of that that they catch in their internall floudes which cause the whéeles of their Mill to turne about very well In very déede they haue an Orcus which is more fertile in golde then that of Piedmont And the name agréeth with it very well For Orcus signifieth hell from whence those flouds arise whiche cannot ioyne themselues with those flouds of the terrestryall Paradise no more then Eurotos with Peneus that goodly floude of Thessaly which cannot abide nor suffer that the execrable waters of that stincking floud engendred wyth paines and torments should be mingled wyth his siluer flouds But they must swimme aboue him as Oyle and after the he hath carryed him a little he driueth him farre from him Theophilus Those héere would as well mingle the waters of their stincking Cesterns with the water of life But it agréeth not together For Iesus Christe cannot abide nor suffer that but casteth it farre from him Wherfore I doubt verye much that as he hath already kindled his fire which hath burned Purgatory that he will also repulse those riuers and lakes and that he will cause them that they shall not swell ouer as a flud doth his waters for to quench and put out that little fire which shall be there left Hillarius they ought a great deale more to feare that flud then the drowning and ouerflowing of Tiber whiche was like to haue drowned Rome For when it runneth ouer it will carry away both the castle of Sainct Ange the Pope and his Popedome and all the Romish Babilon Wherefore it is no meruaile though they feare those euangelicall waters and endeuour themselues to keepe their filthy internall puddles and infectious and stincking welles For that is all the force and riches of their kingdome The flud Nilus which ouerfloweth the land of Aegypt which maketh their fields fruitful and fat and bringeth vnto them great aboundance and increase of wheate and other corne by the mudde filth fat ground dunge and fatnesse that it bringeth with it is not so fertile nor profitable vnto the Aegyptians which inhabit in the land of Aegypt as vnto vs new Aegyptians Wherefore if the Aegyptians take such paine about their flud Nilus and haue their Nilometres that is to say the mesurers of the flud Nilus which haue the charge to measure it for to know whether it encrease much or little we must not be estonished if those heere doe so trauayle after theirs Thomas Wherefore doe they that Hillarius Bicause that if that Nilus do not encrease but twelue cubytes then they haue the famine in Aegypt bycause that if all their groundes are not watred and moysted through the ouerflowinge of the same those whiche are not couered are as the sande and wyll brynge foorth no fruite For it rayneth not in Summer and all their felicitie and riches dependeth vpon Nilus As Moses declared vnto the Israelites comparinge Aegypt vnto the lande of Canaan If the floud Nilus arise vppe xiif cubites yet there shall be tamishment in Aegypt If it encrease xiiif cubites it bringeth ioye if xv it bringeth assurednesse if it encrease xvf. cubites it bringeth delightes and pleasures For they haue such store and aboundaunce of corue and other goodes that all is plentifull On the contrarye if it encrease aboue measure they cannot sowe bicause that the water tarryeth so longe that the earth wyll not bée drye to bée tylled But when it encreaseth by measure they make greate chéere takynge care for nothinge and therefore they haue those Nilometres whiche measure the hyght and depth of those waters and if they knowe that it aryseth not hygh ynoughe for to water all the earthe they make it to be knowen through out all the Townes and Cyties afterwardes euery one maketh dykes and trenches for to make it the easier to runne all abrode If they knowe to the contrary that it wyll swell and ryse vp to hye and that throughe hys greate aboundaunce of hys waters it wyll let and hynder to sowe and tyll the earth they make greate rampers and walles rounde aboute it for to kéepe it in and to cause it to runne more slowelye Nowe therefore doubte not but that our Aegyptians are as wyse in their generations and that they knowe as well that practise for to prouide and foresee to theire Niles and flouddes whiche cause the water to come to theire Milles from which all their fertilities and ryches do procéede and wyth which they fishe and catche the goulde of which yet neuerthelesse they can neuer be satisfied For they are as a goulfe of the sea in which these ryuers dooe emptie
foreshewed that deliuerance which Gregory ought to doe touching the soule of Traianus Theophilus I knowe not what their prophecies are but I neuer in all my lyfe did sée nor heare a thing wherin was lesse reason assurance incerteinly then in that papisticall doctrine For it consisteth but in mane opinions But how do those fables agrée with that that they themselues alledge of Sainct Augustine who by their owne witnesses should say If I did know that my Father were in hell I would pray no more for him then for the diuell Wherefore then haue S. Gregory and S. Machair prayed for the dampned And when the Priestes do pray vnto Iesus Christ that he deliuer the soules least that hel should deuoure them and that they should not fall into the darke and obscure places in what place doe they vnderstande that the soules for whom they make that request ought to bee Sith that they make request that hell do not deuour them they do then vnderstand and meane that they are not in hell But when they admoreouer that they fall not into the darke and tenebrous places they declare therby that they ought to be in a place from which they may not fall Now what is that place Is it Paradise Eusebius No verely For those that are there are alreadye all assured that they shall neuer fall Theophilus No except you are of that opinion that the soules may yet sinne in Paradise as the Angelles and Adam in the terrestriall Paradise and that God did throwe them headlonge into hell as the wicked Angelles or that he dyd driue them out of Paradise as Adam But I beléeue thou art not of that opinion friende Eusebius for thou shouldest speake against all the good auncient Doctours and the doctrine of the catholike Church who doe preferre the worke of mannes redemption to the same of his creation in that that man hath bene so created of God that he could sinne But he hath after such sort redéemed it that his elect can neuer perish nor sinne after they be in Paradise Eusebius It is very true Theophilus In what place then are those soules Thou wylt not saye that they are in the Limbe For according to your owne doctrine that same of the fathers is emptie and as touching the other there goeth none thether but the little children that bée borne dead for whom you doe no more praye then for the dampned For you hope no more that they can come out from thence 〈◊〉 more thē tho dampned can come from hel Wherefore there resteth no more but Purgatory Nowe if those soules are in Purgatorye it muste bée that they haue some solace and some lyght as in Paradise or otherwise wherefore doe they praye that those soules doe not fall into the obscure and darke places if they be there already We will yet come againe vnto my first matter and thou shalt be compelled to confesse that Paradise and Purgatory is all one thing Or that you doe praye for the Saints and Saintes of Paradise and for those which are at rest or at the leastwise that the soules which are already tormented in Purgatory maye yet fall more déeper into hell y darke places And so by that reason they are yet in daunger of dampnation which is contrarye to your own doctrine Hillarius I am greatly estonished friēd Theophilus what reason you can finde out of all reason and what certeintie you search besides the woord of God which is onely certayne What foundation shall you finde in dreames For all that that they saye and do touching the dead and all their doctrine what other thing is it but dreames and lyinges which haue neither spiryte nor iudgement Is not that a Theology altogether come of the Panims for of all those thinges haue they learned any one sillable of Iesus Christ Wherfore I would sith that they will not followe but their owne fantasie the opinions of men and of the Idolaters and that they haue no regarde of the holy Scriptures that they would not at the leastwise onely followe the euyll but also the good that they haue taught Plato that great and worthy Philosopher hath set foorth thrée kindes of righteousnesse The one towardes God an other towardes men and the thirde towards the dead But these heere doo neither regard God nor men the be aliue but haue conuerted all their care vpon the dead not for the loue of them but for the loue of themselues Wherefore you muste not thincke that they haue done this for any zeale of righteousnesse for to render vnto them their duetie Theophilus I desire gladlye that they and all the Christians woulde acquite them in suche sorte that one may say that whiche the Scripture witnesseth of Ruth and of Booz and to gyue vnto them such prayse For it wytnesseth that they haue shewed mercy on the dead But how was it in bestowing their goodes to bury them pompeously and making a greate many of Ceremonyes about their buryall They haue not learned to doe so by the worde of god For as Sainct Augustine sayth also it is written in the decrées themselues and in the Maister of the sentences That all these things to wit the trauaile and labour that they bestowe vpon the funerals the beautifying of their buryall the pompe of the exequics and buryals are more to comfort those that be aliue then for to ayde the dead If the precious and costly buryall profiteth any thing the wicked the vile and contemptible buryall shall hurt the good or if he doe remayne vnburyed That rich man of whom Iesus Christ speaketh off had a great number of seruants and courtisans clothed in purple and sumptuous apparaile who made for him moste excellent funerals and buryed hym very costly to al mens sight But the Ministering of the Angells made a greate deale more noble before the face of the Lorde that of the poore begger whome they carried not to bée buryed But carryed it into Abrahams bosome Beholde the wordes of S. Augustine who declareth vnto vs that we must not dispise the dead bodyes and denie vnto them their buryall for to testifie and witnesse the hope that wée haue of the resurrection and that we should estéeme them no lesse then a ring or a badge which they haue left vnto vs the which we would gladly hide and kepe for the loue of them Also we ought not to thincke that the faythfull can be in nothing of lesse strength and to receiue any hurte before God when they abide vnburyed as it oftentimes chauused as it is written The dead bodyes of thy seruaunts haue they giuen vnto the soules of the Aire to be deuoured and the flesh of thy Saincts vnto the beastes of the land Their bloude haue they shed lyke water on euerye side of Hierusalem and there was no man to bury them But yet neuerthelesse although that those things séeme to be
the auncient Priestes of the lawe vnto whome GOD hath forbidden it For if they woulde bée Iewes and followe them in older thinaes they oughte also to followe them in thys or to yéelde a reason wherefore they followe them in one thing and not in an other Hillarius they had rather to followe the Gentyles and Panims in this behalfe For their Ceremonies and superstytions doo bringe vnto them more profite the which they followe notwithstandinge they are nothing worthe as I haue alreadye sayde Wherefore I thincke that they would haue made to others a lawe gathered out of all that whiche was euyll and wycked Theophilus It is then easelye to bée vnderstanded by all those thinges that the prayse that Neomi dyd gyue vnto Ruth sayinge The Lorde deale as kindlye wyth you as ye haue dealte wyth the dead And vnto Booz in lyke manner praysinge hym for that hée hath kepte for the deade that same grace and lyberalytie as he did vnto the liuinge regarding not the Masses prayers songes and sacrifices whiche they haue done for them But the loue and charitie that they haue shewed towardes the parents and friendes of the dead that be liuing Wherefore the holy Scripture declareth what mercy we ought to haue of the dead and what good déedes God requyreth of vs for them The prayers offerings and good deedes that Ruth that good wydowe did make for hir husbande that was dead was that she kept company faith and loyaltie wyth Noemi hir Mother in lawe hir husbandes mother A poore widowe both of husbande and children as shée hirselfe was she comforted hir in hir afflictions and aduersities And nourished cherished loued hir was attendaunt vpon hir in hir olde age as though she had bene hir owne mother In like manner the grace and loue that Booz hath also kept done vnto the sonnes of Noemi as well to those that were dead as to those the be liuing that is that euen as during their life he hath exercised loue and charitie towards them in cherising and comfortinge them the lyke affection hath he kept towardes them after they were deade And when he coulde no more ayde and succour them and that they had no more neede of him hée hath declared his loue that he dyd beare vnto them towardes the wydowes mothers and wiues of whome he hath had pittie and compassion hath hulpen them both in body goods procuring wyth all his power the honour and profite both of the one of the other vntill he did take to wyse that poore widowe Ruth the Moabite which was y graundmother of Dauid and hir remembraunce is celebrated with the same of Booz hir husbande in the gonealogy of Iesus Christe Wherefore we may knowe howe much the woorke bothe of the one of the other hath pleased God what remembraunce we ought to haue of the dead Thomas I doe finde that to bée the best waye to bestowe and giue the almose vnto the poore widowes and fatherlesse children for that is the true Religion then for to take their goodes and bestowe them vppon the dead or to waste and consume them vppon bawdes and harlots and vpon their children in like manner Hillarius I warrant you they will not followe any good example nor the certeine commaundement of God but what do they follow in this matter When I haue wel read ouer and ouer againe all the holy Scripture I doe not finde one worde And the most auncientest that I can finde which did first bringe in those manner of dooings among the Panims was Pluto of whome we will speake off héereafter whome the Docts and the Panims haue made the God of the soules and the king of the dead and of hell After him came Aeneas who did bringe that custome into Italy After Aeneas Romulus and Numa the Kinges of the Romaines afterwardes our Popes who haue contynued augmented and confirmed still more and more those errours and abuses Althoughe that the Panyms hadde yet a certeyne better opynion in the same then our superstitious Papystes hadde For they dyd not make the sacryfices for the deade for the estymation that they hadde that that shoulde serue them for to deliuer them from paines but for to appease them to the ende that their spirites shoulde not hurt them and doe them euill if they had displesed them when they were aliue For Plato himselfe who hath bene the one of the chiefest forgers inuenters of Purgatory witnesseth plainely that the parents friends cānot profit y dead And therfore saith he the parents friends and kinsslolkes ought to admomshe their friends that they do liue well and honestly and to do presently vnto them that good For there to wytte after this life they cannot giue it thē And before the iudgement seat there shall not be any great company of parents friends which shall mainteine and defende and intreate y Iudge and which canne obtaine of him that he wil pardon thée Theophilus I would to God that all our diuines bad no more euill and wicked opinions then that panim touching the dooings of the dead and that they had saide noe sentence lesse to be credited then this Thomas If the panims did not meane y their sacrifices commemoration should profit the dead wherefore did they it then Hillarius It might be that they did thinke that there might retourr◠vnto them some little profit But yet neuerthelesse their cheife intent and purpose was to appease the soules of the dead and to reconcile them vnto them by that meanes to the end they should not hurt them either in their bodies or goods euen as they haue accustomed to celebrate scasts and to do sacrifices vnto the soules of holy men whom they did think to be in heauen with the gods for to haue ayd and solace as Aeneas did vnto his Father Anchises And all that errour procéeded from the false opinion that they had of the soules and for want of knowing their nature and estate therefore they iudged after their owne sence and vnderstanding and not after the word of god As they do also of the bodies thinking at the least the most supersticyous as it hath bene alreadye touched that the soule doth walke a certaine time if their bodyes hath not bad y honor of the burial such as apertameth was meete for them And that the bodies were in daunger of Enchantors and sorcerers which would abuse them thorow their Nycromancic coniuration And the Hebrewe Rabins and doctors of the Iewes and in no lesse dreaming For they say that the dead body is left in the power of the diuell who calleth him selfe Zazell and doe wrest and turne those places of the scripture for to confirme their erroure vnto whom it is said vnto the Serpent Thou shalt eate of the earth all the dayes of thy life And in another place The earth shal be the Serpents meate They woulde conclude
fire 22 Hell and hell fire are eternall 40 Hell. 22. 29. 40. Hell in Sicily 25 Heraclitus 20. Heredis sleius sub persona risus est 65 Heritage of God. 51. Herodia 72. Herophiles 70. Hydes for shoes 65. The hilles Islande and Norway 26. The dolorous hill in Scotlande 26. Hipocrites 18. Hi1tory 64. Historyes of our time 10. A true history of our time 44 A true history 81. A true history in the yeare of our Lorde 1538. of a Prieste that was a Sorcerer and of his whore 81. Holy Ghost the comforter 92. The honour of Iesus Christe traden vnder 12. The honour due vnto the dead 66. Hunters after testaments and heritages 65. I. Idolatry of the Image of our Lady fol. 74. Iesus Christ the eternall Pope 88. Wherein the Iewes doe follow the Panims Saint Ignatius 95 Induction 50 Infants that are borne dead 28 Infants salted 35. Intention to consecrate 81. Innocation of Saynts 80. Imitation of the Panims 34. Infatible things 52 Iudas out of hell 95. Iudgement of the Lord. 106. Iupiter Elyeins 75. Wherefore shall the Iudgement bee according to the workes 85. K. Those that doe kill themselues 68. King of Castille 105 Kingdome of God. 92. L. Our Lady of Lausanne and hir myracles 44. The lakes and pondes of the Papists 89. Lady Dogges 19. Lake without water 89. The lakes and infernall floudes 88. The Pascall Lambe 50. Lamenting or surrâ—wing for the dead 67 Lamentacions of y prieses for y dead 64 Lamenters 66. language of the Christians 9 All languages good vnto God. 4. Lawe of the Babilonians for those that be sicke 3. Law of Numa 38. Law of Demetrius 70. To laugh at the Popes cost 20. A lesson to the Priests 99. The leaues of the Fig tree of Adam 106 The Legendes of the Papists 78 Libitina Libitinariâ— 65 The Limbe 97. The Limbe of the Infants 29. Licence and lybertie of Dialogues 13. The deuouring Lyon. 94. The Lyon of the Tribe of Iuda 94. To shew lyingswithout truty 10. To loose ones langhing 27. The louers of mans honour and traytours of the diuiNE 12. Lucian and Lucianists 10. Lucri bonus odor exâ—re qualibet 41. M. Saynt Machalre 95. Malo nodo malus cuneus 18. Manducation spirituall 49. Manducation charuall 50. Manducation Papisticall 50. The manner to mocke to the glorye of God. 12. The manner to speak ioyfully in the holy Scriptures 14. The infernall Mappes 24. Merchants in the Church 53. Mariage 41. Mariage of Priestes 81. Marrons which doe burye in the plague tuke 65. Daungerous Marrianers 93. Maskes and morish daunces 99. Masses long and short 63. Masses of hunters 63. The Masties and Haryers of Iesus Christ 20. The meanes to finde out truth 2. The meanes of God. 35. The meanes to comfort the the priests 65 Members of Iesus Christ 50 The Memento of the dead 81 Men more ioyfull more priuiledged 64 Mercury 33. Merite and grace 84. Metonimia 51. The Milanois 46. Mimus 65. The true ministers worthy of foode 71. Minstrells at the burials 66 Minstrells of lairus 67 False miracles 44. Blacke Moonkes 69 To take money for the Sacramentes Ecclesiasticall offices 53. Mortui non mordent 103. N. Nadhegrin 26. The nature of of the truth 11 Naulum 45. Necrocorinthia 41. Nerolatrie 104. Natts and engins of the Priests 93. Nero. 43 Micanor 58. Nilometers 91. The floud Nilus and the fertilitie of Aegypt 91. Notaryes and Prothonotaryes 77 Numa Pompilius 75. O. Obiection 83. Obolus 45 The odoures and smell of a hogge 7. Odilo Abbot 24. Offer wine for the dead 37 Office of a foole and babler 9. Office of a Prophet 14. Office for the dead 87 One onely veritie 2. One Masse a day 63. Opinion of the diuines 23 Opinion of Isidore 23. Opinion of the Robins Iewish Doctors touching the body 101 Oppedere contra tonittus 67 Orcus 90 To take orders 42 Orationes funebres 77. The originall and beginning of prayers for the dead 78 The ornaments of white sepulchers 52. Ouerflowing of Tiber. 91. Out of tast of the bread of lyfe 7. P. Panegyres fol. 77. The payne of those that are depriued from their buriall 46. Papists excommunicated 53. Al pipistical pricsts excommunicated 53. To go into Paradise in post 63. Paradise 97. Parentalia 25. The parents and friendes can doe nothing after one to dead 101 Pastors and Shepheards feeding them selues 51. Pericles 77. To persecute Iesus Christ 50. Persians 58. Personages of Dialogues 15 Peter Rosset a Poet royall 58. Good Phisicians 64. Phisicians of Soules 31 Phisitians and Poticaries of hell 33 Pillers and deuourers 51. The place of the soules of the papists 06. Plato and Virgile 30. Pluto 40. The poyson of the Athenians 4â— All Popes Antipopes Antechrists 88 The Pope maketh the Princes his hanguien 58. Poinegranards and Bells hanging vppon the bestement of the high Prieste of the law 73. Potage for the soules 53. To praye for the Virgin Mary and the Saints 82. Prayers for the lyuing 94. To preach Iesus Christ maske wise or couertly 13. Praeseth bulletarum 43 Preparation for the departure out this lyfe 98 Presence of Iesus Christ 49. It is forbidden the Priests to be at the burying of the dead 67. The Priests of Cyble 74. Priests Minstrells 67 The Priests doe not pray but for those that be in Paradise 82 Priests the churchyarde and sepulchers both of men and Iesus Christ 47. Priests following the Iewes 100 The pride of Caligula 42. Priuiledge of euil Phisicians and hangmen 64 Prisoners of Purgatorie 29. Priuiledges 95. Priuation of the buriall 68. Profite of the buriall 97. Profite in discouering abuses 17. Propertie of salt â—4 Prouises of God contrary vnto Papisticall Purgatorie 82. Prophecie agaynst the Aegyptians 93. The prose of the dead 83. A newe Prouerb of the Priests 65 A Prouerbe 65. A Prouerbe velut canise Nylo 6. Protonatory of name 78 Purgatory 32. 97 Purgatory of Iesus Christ and that or the Pope 56. Purgatory Platonieall 30 Purgatory and his reuenewes 23. Purgatory of the pockie 38 The mouers of sedition of purgatory 55 How Purgatory is buried 40. Purifications at the funeralls 37 The punishment of those that reiect the Gospell do go vnto a strange fire 56 Punishment of malefactors 85. Punishment of Dauid 83. Q. To quench fire with fire 58. The quicke reputed for dead 36 Nuasting forbidden 99. R. Repines and extorcions of Caligula 42. Rationale diuinorum osticiorum 81 Raw earth 44 Those which doe fly from the reading of holy bookes 6. Curious readers of foolish bookes 7 Refounders or melters 38. Religion of beggers or begging Religion 54 Remedy agaynst the thunder and lyghtning 75. Renullion forgiuenes in this world 98 The Rentall of Purgatory 39 To repose or remain Christ 82. Reproch of the Paysant to the priests 65 Repugnauncio of doctrine 94 Requiems of the poore and rich 63. Requirescant in pace 38. Thr riches of Purgatory 30 Three kindes of righteousnesse after Plato 97
deade which were truely Christians And hath commaunded that the Priestes ought to make commemoration of them Dne may very well presume by that aduertisement and commaundement that which Gregory made vnto Boniface touching this matter that it is not long agoe that the Masse hath begonne to bee a sacrifice for the dead and that the institution is not so auncient as some men do thinke it to bee at the least-wise that Iesus Christ and his Apostles haue not bene the author thereoff For Boniface would not haue kept it secret in that time Wherefore I giue more credite vnto those whiche haue written that Pope Pelagius hath bene the author inuentor and promoter of those suffrages and prayers the which we sée dayly yet in vse amonge the Christians and we call them the good déedes for the dead then to any of those which haue followed the Apostles Eusebius If you had reade ouer and ruminated the auncient doctors of the Churche you shall not finde that doctrine so newe but you woulde speake otherwise and should know that the Churche hath followed it of long time before that Pelagius or Sainct Gregory were borne Wherefore then did Sainct Ambrose make mention writing of the death of the Emperour Theodosius of the first seuenth thirty and fourty day that the Churche did celebrate making remembraunce of the dead and for what cause they did the same of whome the wordes are written in the decrées after this manner Bicause that some haue vsed to obserue the thirde caye other some the seuenth and others the thirty in the office of the dead Let vs consider what thing that lesson in the scripture teacheth vs It saith After that Iacob was dead Ioseph commaunded his seruants that they should bury him And the children of Israel buried him and the forty dayes beeing accomplished for so were the daies of the burial compted they lamented seuen dayes We ought to follow that solemnitie the whâ—che the holy scripture describeth vnto vs It is also written after this manner in Deuteronomium that the children of Israel lamented Moses and did wepe thirty dayes and then the mourning was ended heth those two obseruations haue then authoritie by the which the necessary office of piety and humanity is accomplished Doe you not sée here plainely by the words of Sainct Ambrose that already in his time the Churche did the office and commemoration of the dead and did celebrate in their memory certaine dayes and yet the auncients haue not instituted them after the inutation and example of the Panyms and Idolaters as you say and affirme but after that imitation of the auncient Patriarkes and Prophets and of the people of God Theophilus I am abashed I knowe not whether I shall speake it of the ignorance mallice of your doctors For if they vnderstande that Saincte Ambrose hathe allowed that which they at this day do vphold and maintaine they do greatly erre and shewe themselues to be verye ignoraunt Also if they vnderstand his intention and meaning they are very malicious and wicked to peruerte and marre the sence of the same for to maintaine their abuses and alwayes the more to kéepe the poore people in errour Firste they well perceiue and sée that Sainct Ambrose maketh no mention neither of Purgatory nor of Masse for the dead and that that place cannot serue but for the sorrow that men take for the dead For yet in that time the Churche approched néerer vnto the puritie of the primatiue Churche and was not so muche corrupted as she hath bene afterwards sithence the time of Pope Pelagius and of Gregory the greate This then that he maketh mention of the first seuenth thirty and forty daye in his booke and sermon that hée made of the death and buriall of Theodosius is not set forth by him for to nourishe and holde the pepole in the supersticions of the Panyms as you doe but rather to draw them backe from it and for to induce and leave the Christians vnto more greater honesty and modestye to the sorrowe that they ought to haue for the dead For that cause did he propound and set foorth the example of the Israelites not that he woulde thereby make a law vnto the Christian people that they shoulde mourne seuen thyrty nor forty dayes bicause that the Israelites haue mourned so many dayes for lacob Moses Aaron and Marie their sister yet lesse for to cause Masses to be said and to banket and make the priests broken as they do dayly at the Portuaries and Anniuersaries For then he should teache the Christian people to playe the Iewes and sinne against the Christian liberty if hee woulde of all the examples of the Scripture and of the thinges done by the Israelites draw out take lawes and statutes for to commaunde them vnto the Christian people as necessarie and ordeyned of god For first of all God neuer hath defined nor determined by his lawe certaine dayes nor yet to lament and mourne for the dead nor for to make any commemoration of them as it appeareth very well by the examples asore alledged For the Israelites themselues haue not kept a certaine number of dayes at the mourninge of Iacob Moses Aaron and of Marie For they did kéepe Iacob in Aegypt fortie dayes after that hee was enbaumed and the Aegyptians bewept him Ixx dayes He was carried into Hebron afterwards his sonnes bewept him seuen dayes in Atad But Moses Aaron and Marie their sister were beewept euerye one of them thirty dayes Thou doest see alreadie here that they are not very superstitious in the dayes and that some time they haue vsed eyther more or lesse It should séeme that their ordiuary was but for seuen dayes For it is written Seuen dayes do men mourne for him that is dead but the lamentation ouer the vnwise shoulde endure all the dayes of their life But when it is for some noble personne as for a Prince or a Prophet or anye man of great estimation and renome they woulde of custome prolonge theyr mournynges vntyll thyrtie dayes But they woulde not wyliyngly passe béeyond it as wée sée here in these three examples of Moses Aaron and Marie who were bewept and lamented of the people of Israel asmuche and more then anye other euer were The mourning of Iacob was a little more loÌ„ger bycause he was carried to be buryed a great way and that they carried him from the land of Aegypt into the land of Canaan not that they esteemed the land of Canaan more holy then that of Aegypt as touching his nature or that it had any more vertue for the health of the body or soule of him that was buryed there as the superstitious Christians and poore ignorant do iudge of the earth in the churchyarde bicause that it was blessed and halowed by their Bishops and Priests But they did that for to witnes in the article of the
a wise man doth not afflict nor lament himselfe too much when he looseth his children or his friends but beareth their death with such a stomack and heart as he would doe his owne For that cause amongst others was Anaxagoras praysed who without any trouble to himselfe answered vnto him which brought hun tidings of the deathe of his sonnes Thou tellest me of no new thing nor a thing but that I ahue longe looked for it For I knew very well that he whom I engendred was mortall Thomas When I doe heare spoken of the constancie and modestie that the Panims haue shewed in the death both of them and of their friendes I am greately ashamed of vs christians who haue so great feare and doe make such noyse and torment our selues after the dead Hillairus Thereby we declare that we are very ignoraunt and effeminated And therefore the Lycians did apparayle them with womwnes apparell when they did mourne and lament to the ende that they should bée moued thorow that deformitie of apparell and thereby constrayned to cast downe all that foolish sorrow Declaring by the same that they accompted it folly to lament and wéepe For that cause Lycurgus did not permit to the Lacedemonians but eleuen dayes to mourne and lament in and after at the twelfe day they must cast it downe after that they had made a sacrifice vnto Ceres Uppon that matter ahth Plutarch written that all things not accustomed nor vsed were applyed vnto those that dyd lament and mourne And therefore the men went foorth openly hauing their heads couered the woemen vncouered and shorne or altogether polde agaynst the order of nature that being ashamed of such desormitie they should be constrayned she rather to moderate themselues and the better to banqutsh and ouercome their affections And whereas the Romaines prescribed a yeare full out vnto the woemen for to mourne was not for to compell them to lament and mourne so long time but to moderate and correct them to the ende they exceeded not measure And therefore the widowes did cary the signes of sorrowfulnesse being apparayled with blacke and wearing white kerchiefes vppon their heades as the Papists doe at this day The which thinges ouid hath comprised in a fewe bearses speaking of the yeare ordayned by Romulus after this manner When funeralls were once fulfilde the wise with ruthfull cheere His husbands death dyd wayle the want the space of one whole yeere And the Poet Statius sayth also The woemen weare in their attire the haue of blacke and white To represent the difference betwixt the day and night And it was not lawfull for them to marry before that those tenne moneths were expired except the had a dispensation of the Senate and Counsell as wée haue vsed to take of the people For Numa Pompilius of the same made a law the which did condempne the widow which maried before that the terme and lawfull tyme was accomplished to sacrifice a Cow with calfe Not that he estéemed that it was a sinne worthy of great punishment in marrying hir before that terme but had regarde to the honestye for two causes The first was bicause that it was not honest for the woeman but very much contrarye vnto the shamefastnesse and naturall modestye which oughte to be in hir to marye agayne so soone and before that the féete of hir first husband as the common Prouerbe is be throughly colde The other cause is for to conserue and kéepe the lynage and generations without minglyng them and destroying the séedes For it may so chaunce that the woman shal be with chilce by hir first husbande and she shall not know it so soone Neuerthelesse when there is any person of great callyng the Senate and Counsell would dispense with him as it appeareth at the maryages of Anthony and Octauia who by the authoritie of the same were allowed notwithstanding that Octauia did mourne for C. Marcellus Theophilus It is most certeine that it lyeth not in mans power to make a law which is repugnaunt and agaynst that which the Lorde hath sayde by his Apostle Hée that cannot abstaine let him mary to the ende that none do put any snare about the necke of any man put his soule in daunger Therefore sayth he it is better to mary then to burne For that cause let vs not make a law for to bynde any man and to take from him his libertie in such things but let vs leaue y vnto euery ones discression following the customs most allowable Yet neuertheles it is requisite whatsoeuer infirmitie of the flesh that one can alleadge that one haue alwayes reason of honestie and Christian modestie For that cause friende Eusebius haue wée propounded vnto thée so many examples and sentences both of the holy scriptures of auncient Doctors and also of the Panims to that ende that thou maist the more cléerely know what hath bene the custome of the auncient Israelites and of the Panims and of the first Christians also what hath bene their mourning what daies they haue dedicated for the same for the dead and for what cause and how the auncient Doctors haue written and to what intent and how much the Christian religion hath degenerated frō his auncient puritie insomuch that it is not worthy to cōpare them in such things I say not vnto the auncient Iewes but vnto the Panims themselues which haue had some iudgement honestie And yet neuerthelesse S. Hierome doth desire that the christiās should be yet more sober in such things then y auncient Israelites whose maner of doing he praysed not greatly which they haue vsed towards the dead But he excuseth them bicause that they had not yet receyued so amply the lyght and knowledge nor the accomplything of the promises of God so amply so excellently as we Wherefore he would that we should be a great deale more moderate and that we should declare more lyuely the hope that we haue of the resurrection But if we can doe no better nor be more perfect then they let vs not be at the least more imperfect and lette vs not doe worse after the manner of the Papists who are mroe to be rebuked in those things then any people that euer was vppon the earth Wherefore it were better friende Eusebius that we should reduce our selues to the imitacion of the Apostolicall Church then to continue alwayes in our folly and madnesse vnder the colour of a word or two that we finde eyther in Ambrose or in some other auncient doctor for want of well vnderstanding them And it shal be a great deale more conuenient and meeter for vs to follow the example of Dauid who mourned lamented for his childe all the while that he was sicke and whilest that he was yet alyue not after that hée was dead For which all those of his house were much abashed For whilest that the childe was yet
youngmen were cleane and kept themselues from woemen And Dauid answered the Priest and saide vnto him of a trueth woemen hath bene locked vp from vs about a thrée dayes Furthermore when the Prophet Ioel exhorted the people vnto penaunce fastings and prayers wherfore saide hée amonge other thinges let the bridegroume goe foorth of his chamber and the bride out of hir closet Doth not the holy Scripture declare sufficiently vnto vs how we ought to dispose and giue our selues vnto penaunce fastings and prayers chiefely when the solemne feastes doe approche and that when wee must goe vnto the Lords table for to receiue his precious body and bloud is it not then requisite that we shoulde abstayne both from woemen and from all other carnall pleasures Theophilus I deny not but that God requireth of vs a great honesty movesty and helmes and that we sheult abstaine not only from things which of themselues are euill and wicked and by he◠forbidden at all times but it is also requisite some time to abstaine from things which are lawfull permitted when there is a question of some thing of great unportance if such things might anything at all be a let vnto vs And when the auncient Doctors haue spoken of such things they haue so vnderstanded it But although that God desireth that euery one shoulde know how to kéepe his vessell in holines and honour that none do defile his owne body nor his wiues nor of any other whosoeuer it bée thorow to great concupiscence of the flesh and that he also requireth in the holy mariage a Christian continency chastity and sobriety as from wine and other creatures Must he therefore forbid mariage vnto some for euer and vnto other some a great parte of the time without excepting any person whatsoeuer hée or shée bée of what estate condition or infirmity that may bee in them Hillarius You doe wronge Theophilus For they are not so rigorus as you make them to bée and haue not such strayte and rigorus lawes but that for money they will release and dispense with it But whiche is more I beléeue that who soeuer will bring money vnto that Pope and agrée with him that he will dispense with the childe to mary with his mether the father with his daughter the brother with his sister without hauing regarde vnto consanguinitie diuine lawes nor humaine Theophilus I doubt it not except the shame and feare of men do let and hinoer it sooner then the feare of God. Hillarius By what right shal he refuse vnto others that which sometime some amongst them are permitted For which I wil haue none other witnes at this time but the Cpitath of Lucretia that daughter of Pepe Alexander the whiche was made in Latine after this manner and to this effect Within this tōbe here now doth sleep who had to name Lucrece In all things shee cōpard was to I hass whore of Grece Whom Alexander Pope of Rome when she remaind in life Esteemed as his daughter in law and vsed as his wife Theophilus I demaunde of thée friende Eusebius if God hath forbiden mariage vnto euery person estates and conditions or in any times and seasons wherefore doth that Pope dispense for money For that which God hath forbidden and prohibited cannot be lawefull for any money that one can disburse If God hath not forbidden it wherfore doth he forbyd that which God hath permitted you cannot deny but that he is a Tyrant theese and a piller of the poore people Hillarius I will resolue thy doubte and will vanquish thée by a plaine and cléere induction wilt thou not graunt vnto mée that God is aboue the law and that he is subiect vnto none Theophilus I do not gaine say it Hillarius Afterwards do you not cōfesse that God which made that law can dispense with it at his pleasure and that where there is dispensation of God there is no more lawe Theophilus I also agrée vnto thée in that Hillarius For where there is no law as Sainct Paul witnesseth there is no transgression nor sinne Theophilus I do nowe perceiue where vnto thou wilt come I well perceiue that you minde to conclude that sith that the Pope is God in y earth he may wel dispense with those lawes that he giueth here in earth that after his dispensation there remaineth no more sinne vnto them which offēde against his lawes when those lawes are taken frō thē by him that gaue it thē But of this thy conclusion I wil bring foorth yet another consequence by the which I will proue that he which doth against the lawes of that Pope which haue no foundation by the worde of God doth not sinne but against y Pope not against God for there is no trāsgression against God but in that wheroff there is a law of god Now there is in none of all those things wheroff wee haue spoken any law giuen of God. Wherfore who so that maryeth in those times prohibited he sinneth not against God but against that Pope only not that I wil deme but that we must obey that higher powers rulers not only bicause of feare the we should haue of thē of the power that they haue ouer vs but also for cōscience sake as the holy Apostle teacheth vs giuing vs thereby to vnderstand that we ought to obey our Princes Lords with a good conscience although that we feare not they punishment and bengeaunce bicause we must serue them as those which serue God and not men whiche is but his instrument and seruaunt But the same ought to be vnder standed in that wherein the power is lawfull and that one may obey it without hurting the soule perill of conscience notwithstanding that one shoulde receiue damage either in bodie or goods For in another case condition the aunswer of the Apostle abydeth alwayes firme It is better to obey God then men Hillarius I well agrée vnto that thou sayest But thou hast not yet hit the white For I am a more subtill Logyeioner then thou thinkest that I am nor I stay not only vpon common arguments And therfore let vs retourne againe vnto nune induction the which I haue not yet ended I am very wel contented to confesse vnto thée that the Pope is a God in the earth but in that sence as the diuell is called in the holy Scripture the prince of this worlde the God of this worlde the ruler of darkenes or in that sence as wee do gods the Idols straunge Gods. But there is yet a greater God and more puissant then he vnto whom he and all other such Gods like vnto him are subiect and obedient Now I demaunde of thée where to ought we to referre the ende of mans life Theophilus Unto him from whom it tooke his béeginning Hillarias It is then of God who is the beginning and ende of all thinge who
god But bicause that that holy asshes was done in the daye of the feast of the Goddesse Pales and that I haue yet to speake of otter Goddesses here before mencioned let vs returne vnto the feast of Candlemas and afterwardes let vs fall againe to the asshes after that I shal haue a little followed certeine other conformities the whiche I haue alreadye some thinge beganne I haue alreadye touched howe you doe attrybute the same tytles vnto the Uirgyn Mary whiche the Idolaters haue giuen vnto Iuno Diana Ceres and Proserpina whom they haue called some of them Quéenes of Heauen the others Ladies without a tayle Shee called hir selfe the handemayde and seruaunt of the Lorde and you doe call hir our Lady as though there were in Heauen Lordes and Ladyes as there is in the Earth and a King and a Quéene as there is a Sunne and a Moone Theophilus The Scripture admitteth but one king of the worlde immortal and inuisible and onely wise vnto whome onelye belongeth all honour and glorye and in whose thigh is written King of Kings and Lorde of Lordes Uppon whiche also wée haue the witnesse of the Apostle saying Although that there bée many Gods manye Lordes in the worlde to witte after the reputation of the Idolaters yet neuertheles vnto vs there is but one God and one Lord. Hillarius Afterwards you doe make the same honour vnto the Uirgyn Mary which the Romaines dyd vnto the Harlot Flora whome they haue made a Goddesse and canonised hir bicause that shée made them heyres of hir goodes whiche shée hadde gayned by whoredome And afterwardes for to couer and hyde their honoure haue called hir Chloris and haue giuen vnto hir power to make the Earth to fructifie and increase Doe yée not greate honoure vnto that holye Uirgyn to giue vnto hir Flora that abhominable bawde and harlot for a compaignion or to put hir in hir place And the tyme agréeth well to the feaste For the Florales and the feaste of Candlemas of Flora were dedycated vnto all lycenciousenesse shamelesse playes vpllaynies and dissolutions the whiche the false Christians doe practise all that time whiche is betweene the Kinges and Shroftyde afterwardes they beginne agayne at Caster and doe contynue vntyll the moneth of Maye and almoste all the yeare But chiefely at the feasts of Caster in May after their lamentations of Lent. Furthermore the Panims do hold Proserpina Hecate for the Goddesse and Quéene of hell and do light vnto hir Torches and candels and doe beséech hir for the dead to the ende shée be fauourable as well for hir owne parte as towardes hir husband Pluto And you do ye muche lesse of the Uirgin Mary you doe call hir Quéene of heauen And you do make hir Quéene of hell and of the dead as the Poets doe of Hecate whom they do also take for Proserpina and Diana vnto whom they do attribute great power in heauen and in hell as it appeareth by that that Virgill saith To cast in sacred fire redemption chiefe of deedes amisse And on Diana cals in heauen and hell that mightie is Also in like manner you would make of Iesus Christ a Pluto or at the least the difference is not great And if you wil deny it I wil haue no more to proue it but your prose sequence of the dead which is in good tyme but yet neuerthelesse without reason beginning in Latin Lugentibus in Purgatorio The which for to make it the better to souÌ„d in thine eares friend Eusebius the better to follow the stile of the Fatists which haue made it I wil revearse it vnto thée in verse word for worde the best I can and if thou doe not finde the ryme so good as it is in Latine be assured that there is more ryme and better then there is of reason For I do not thinke that one can finde greater blasphemy against God and the Uirgyn Mary If I do not translate it word for worde I will yet at the least rehearse the sentence faithfully Giue eare then and I will poure it forth 1 To all them that doe dwel in Purgatory paine Where firy furies fel and sorrowes they sustaine And torments doe endure voide of solation Come shew them some â—ecure by thy compassion O Mary 2 Thou art the well alone which washest sinnes away Thou hydest euery one and none thou doest denay Extend thy hand toward these soules and succorr shew Which thus without regard lye languishing in woe O Mary 3 The dampned spirites to thee so pitious do asplie Desiring for to bee deliuered foom the fire That by thee they may bee erepted for their paine And may in ioyes with thee for euermore remaine O Mary 4 Of Dauid only kay which heauen openest wyde These wretches helpe streight way which dolors do abide Let them deliuered be from dongeon and durance Where they do linked lye in sorrow and greuance O Mary 5 A rule art thou full right to them that thee assye A liuely lampe of light to them that trust in thee Incontinent go pray for these soules in distresse Thy sonne that he streight way their dolour will relesse O Mary 6 O Virgin thus we do vpon thee cry and call These soules so tangled to deliuer out of thrall And pardoning their misdeed also wee thee request That thou wilt be their guyde to euerlasting rest O Mary Do ye not behold a goodly Letanie may not Iesus Christ now rest For the Scripture attributeth vnto him nothing which is not here altogether attributed vnto the creature Wherefore I will haue none other proposition for to proue that that profe contayneth the greatest blasphemye which may be vppon the earth but only that eyther the same that I do say is true or els that the holy Scripture is false and Iesus Christe is no more Iesus Christe the dore the key and he which holdeth it which openeth and sutteth the way the trueth and the life by whom onely wée haue accesse vnto the father or onely hope the resurrection and remission of sinnes or only aduocate patron and mediator the which titles and many other like the Scripture attributeth vnto him onelye and not vnto the creature whatsoeuer it bée eyther in heauen or in the earth Wilt thou now deny but you doe make of the Uirgin Mary a Proserping and of the other side a Ceres whom in like manner you doe honor by putting on of white apparel and with fastings superstitious abstinences euen as Ouid hath written of Ceres saying The Goddesse Ceres best doth like the garment made of white And for hir vse in garment blacke shee no thing doth delite Behold as touching the apparell Giue eare also to that which he speaketh of the superstitious fastings Their feasting lasted all the day till time of night drew neare And then they streight to supper went when starres in skye appeare
As muche did they in like manner vnto Isis and Cible whom you wil bring all into the Christianitie vnder the title of that good virgin And not béeing contented with the yée do adde yet Iuno Sospita vnto whom the title was giueÌ„ bicause that the Panims did attribute vnto hir the vertue to heale saue men For Sospita signifieth asmuch as a saueresse or woman sauer Therefore al those the were sicke or diseased did call vpon hir with Iupiter the sauiour Iesus Christ is not sufficient for you for a sauiour except you do adde a saueresse or a woman sauiour It is not sufficient for you to haue him for a Porter and key bearer in heauen but yee must ioyne to him a shee porter and shée key keeper to the end that we should haue the Goddesse Carua aswell as the Panims had vnto whom Ouid giueth such power as you do giue in that prose vnto your newe Uirgin Mary the whiche you haue forged and made of your owne minde For shée which was the Mother of Iesus would not commit sacriledge for to steale from Iesus Christ hir sonne the honour whiche to him alone apperteyneth But marke well whether the verse of Ouid speaking of the Goddesse Carua doth euill agrée with your prose Through hir great force and mighty power that which is close and shet Shee doth set ope and shut againe without any mans let Furthermore you apply hir to you purpose as they did the Goddesse whom they did call Muete and the Goddesse Palis For after that they had ended that that belongeth vnto the dead they did also make a magicall sacrifice to the Goddesse Muete to which they did put inceÌ„ce war beanes other like things they did think the it had vertue against their enemies for to kéepe theÌ„ chiefly for to stop the mouth of the euill speakers and backebiters Thomas The poore priests shoulde haue neede to make such sacrifices against you for to bridle your mad tongues to stop your mouths Hillarius They haue the Agnus Dei of war which the Pope blesseth the great Satterday which ought to haue that vertue Theophilus They néed none other sacrifice then to to be good people of good doctrine a holy life and duely to exercise the office of shepheardes as the true disciples ministers of Iesus Christe they shal easely tye the tongue of all backbiters euil speakers or they shal do at y least that it shal not hurt them that those which now do speake euil shal finde themselues lyers if they perseuer continue in it Hillarius Yet there remaineth the feast of Palis the Goddesse of the Shepheards in the whiche also they did make the purging fires and the shepheards did leape vpon the flames thinking that by those fires they wer purified I think y of that custome came y fires of Saint Brandons for those that were new maried and those of Sainct Iohn afterwardes in that same feaste they made persumes besides the holy asshes of which we haue already inademeÌ„tion off and of the holy water aswell for to purge the men as the beasts and did make sprinklings vpon them for to â—éepe them from euillâ— The which ceremonies Ourd hath all comprised in these vestek And surely I my selfe in hande the sacnfice did take The beme stalke and the asshes which the burned Calues did make And thrice I past the firy slames in order placed there Which all be sprinkled with the dew of droppong Lautell were And of the perfumes in that same booke he saith Perfumes from virgins alter fetch which Vesta will giue thee For by the vetâ—ue of hir gift thou purified shalt bee Thy pertumes shall be Horses bloud And asshes of a Calfe The third thing them shall be the stalkes of beanes for that behalfe Let shephearde then make sacrifice at dawning of the day Let him cast wateron the earth and sweepe the dust away Then sheepefoldes trymly let be deckt with boughes and brauncues greene And let their wreathes and garlauds gay vppon the doores be seene Let blewish smoke likewise be made of Brimstone good and fine And let the Sheepe smeerd with the smoke his bleating voyce resigne Male Olyues then with fire consume the Iuniper and Pine And let the Laurel crackelyng leaues be burnt in chimney thine You haue also the torches and holy Candells and the encensings and perfumes your holy asshes which you giue the first day of Lent and you haue alwayes your holy water ready and your holy torches as remedyes agaynst all diseases and daungers of men and of beastes and ye doe giue and vowe them vnto the Virgin Mary and to the Saynts and Sayntes as they did to the Goddesse Pales which had the charge of the beastes Eusebius Is that a thing contrarye vnto the word of God to put holy asshes on the foreheads of the Christians for to admonish then of their mortail condition and fragilitie to the ende that man ddoe remember that hée is but dust earth and asshes and to the earth shall retourne agayne Is not that a good aduertisement for to abate the pride and arroganicie of man and to prepare hym vnto death and to the iudgement of God And afterwardes how many places of the holy Scripture are there which doe exhorte vs to humble our selues before God with fackecloth and asshes And of examples of the seruaunts of God which haue done the lyke But you wyll not consider those places but you had rather to speake euill of it and to referre it to the Panims Theophilus I denye not but that the auncient and true seruauntes of God haue done peuaunee fasted and prayed wyth fackecloth and asshes but howe doth that that they dyd agrée with that that you doe Hillarius As much as is betwéene the worke of a man and of an Ape Theophilus It is no lye For that which the auncientes dyd they did it wyth a good heart and not by outward gestures They dyd retourne againe vnto God by true repentaunce confession of their sinnes and amendement of lyfe They made no Shrofeside nor dyd burste themselues wyth eatinge and drinckinge They dyd not giue themselues to all dyssolutions fot to goe the nexte daye to haue a fewe afshes put vppon their foreheades as though they woulde playe a Maske or a Iest and to mocke wyth God and wyth men Thery absteyned not onely from certeyne meates vntyll noone for to stuffe and fill themsclues afterwardes wyth other meates and to eate vntill they burst But they absteyned first form vice and sinne and afterwardes from all pleasures delyghtes and pompes They absteyned from eatinge and drindcking all a daye vntill night and sometyme continued their prayers vntill two of theire owne voluntarye wyll and good heart when they dyd knowe that it was erpedient for them so to doe or for to macerate and chastice theire bodye or when they dyd sée
vse in the censecration and halowinge of them bee a witnesse in the which you doe praye God that it woulde please hym to sende his holy Angel from heauen to blesse and sanctifie these asshes to the ende they maye bée a healthfull remedy vnto all those whiche doe call vpon his name and that althose which de poure them vpon them maye receiue bealish of their body and safegarde of their soule for the redemption of their sinnes Those asshes should haue as much vertue as the bloud of Iesus Christ They should haue yet more shew and colour as already hath bene declared to restore the auncient Iewisth Ceremonye and to make asshes of the younge heyfer then to doe that that they doe or to make them of a Calfe as the Pomaines dyd For they shoulde haue more coulor in the holy Scripture in the which they shall finde no institution of their asshes Hillarius If they doe not finde it in the holy Scripture ought it not to suffice thée that it is founde in the Balender of Ouid. But they doe adde moreouer that the Vestalles wyth those consecrated asshes for the purgation of the people not onely made wyth a Calfe but also wyth stalkes and poddes of beanes had perfumes of Brimstone of Torches of the Laurell or Bay trée of the Dliffes of Rosemarye and other lyke swéete and oderiferant trées and hearbes of which your Missell teacheth you to make your asshe to wytte of the boughes which were blessed the yeare before and of the bandes and begins which they doe put on the little chyldren in their baptisme and confirmation Dost thou thincke Eusebius that those thinges doe euyll agrée wyth your Ceremonies and the purgations that you haue nas wel for the quicke as for the dead For sith that the bloud of Iesus Christ is not sufficient for you it must néedes be that you haue a Purgatory both for the one and the other But I haue yet forgotten that at the feast of the dead the Panims dyd shut their Temples and couer and hide their images as Ouid hath in lyke manner descrided by these verses The Gods of Churches were shut vp with close and priuy doores And alters wanted sacrifice none incense on them poures Then did poore soules and bodies dead committed to the graue Still stray abroade and feede on that set for them then to haue The Athenians also vsed Ceremonies altogether like vnto that feasts of Praxiergide which they celebrated in Athens in the moneth of February to the which the one holdeth the secrete misteries one other pulleth downe all the ornamentes of the Temple and an other couereth the Image that was there Doe not you receiue and vse yet at this day all in all those same manner of dooings the which you haue referred to Lent and doe stoppe the noses of your Idolls and hange a vayle before them for to declare that it is taken no more from you then from the Iewes I know not whether you be afraide least they should smel the garlike which you eat in Lent. I wil leaue off to speake of other sperstitions Idolatries which you haue borrowed of the Panims For I should neuer make an ende But I will onely shew one part of those which are descended from the feast of the dead celebrated amōg the Panims and of the purgations y they haue aswel for the quick as for the dead to the ende thou shouldest know that euen as you haue followed thē for y purgations of the buing so haue you done in those of the dead Theophilus It séemeth also y Tertulian would referre that which y Corinthians did baptize themselues for the dead to the Februales purifiecations of the panims as letting to vnderstand that where the Corinthians dyd baptize themselues for the dead was a superstition which they did yet kéepe of their auncient customes crcept y in stéede of that panish superstitions they did abuse that baptisme thinking y it ought to serue for the dead as we do sée in our time that they haue applyed it vnto the Lords supper by the means of Masses that which the superstitins Papists doe thinke to profit the dead in whose name the Priest doth cōmunicate and sing it Although that the wordes of Tertulian are obscure and very harde yet to cramine them together it séemeth verye well that he meaneth the same and the auncientes haue almost all taken it after that manner notwythstandinge that others doe take it in an other sence and doe interprete that place of Sainct Paule of those which doe cause themselues to bée baptised when they were in extreme sicknesse and néere vnto death For the custome was that those which came to the sayth which men call the Catechumenis bicause they are instructed in the fayth and Christian Religion dyd not of custome cause themselues to bée sodedinely baptised vntill suche time as they were well instructed and taught in the secrete misteries and doctrine of the Christian Religion And therfore bycayse they had the baptisme in great reuernce and dyd beléeue that thorow the same they had full remyssion and forgiuenesse of all their sinnes and were altogether renued many taryed and referred to be baptised vntyll they were lyke to dye thinckinge that when they dyed in such a state they were more purewr and cleaner from their sinnes the whiche they coulde neuer haue done if they had not truelye beléeued and hoped for the immortalytie of the soules and the resurrection of the fleshe Although that the Apostles allowed not suche manner of dooinge Those which doe take the woordes of the Apostle after such a sence and meaninge are induced to doe it bicause that they thincke that if the Apostle dyd vnderstande and meane that of the Panish superstitions that he would not haue passed it ouer wythout rebuking that errour and doe expound it that they should baptise themselues of the dead that is to say as dead and as people which repute themseluesalready dead I haue the willinger touched this for to giue occasion vnto the readers to examine well that place and the exposition of the auncientes and others Hillarius We haue sufficiently entreated of that matter Eusebius and thinke that thou shalt haue somewhat to doe to seperate against that which we haue propounded for to proue that your ceremonies prayers for the dead are taken of the true Church of Iesus Christ For I haue rehearsed vnto thee one parte of the Popes Kalender and mée séemeth that he ought to giue mée good wages for to end them all and his feasts as Ouid hath written those of the Romaines Eusebius If thou haddest as well read the workes of Sainct Augustine and of other auncient Doctors as the bookes of Ouid and other Poets and Autors of the Panims thou wouldest speake otherwise and thou shouldest not haue fallen into such déepe rootes of errors and heresles in which thou art wrapped in in such for that thou
canst not come forth what so euer thing one may propound to the contrary Hillarius I gladly desire if that I am plounged in so déep e error as thou sayest that I am that thou wouldest ayde and helpe me to come out of it And if I haue not reade the auncient Doctors so diligently as thou thinkest that thou haste reade I woulde that therein thou wouldest amende my faulte and that thou couldest shewe mee so good out of their bookes that I might haue occasion to content my selfe But I doe now know by experience that that which I thought is true For I doubt very much that euen as I haue sayd at the beginning all thy artillery canons and munititions with thy matter gunner Eccius should be all consumed into smoke as it appeareth vnto mée at this present I did looke for certeine strong argumentes and that a great number of them but if thou hast no other weapons thou art not so wel armed as thou vauntest thy selfe except peraduenture there bee some thinge more excellent in the arriere garde Eusebius Sing not the triumph before the victory For thou art yet very farre from thy rekoning and from that thou thinckest the strongest is yet to doe But with much a doe one could speake a word before thée Thou art of the nature of women For thou must alwayes bee balinge and thou wouldst rather dye but that thou wylt haue the last word Thomas hath graunted vnto mée this day to put foorth my reasons and to aunswere and relye vnto yours But euen as Theophilus and you doe So must I yet haue a few dayes respite before that I can bring that that I haue to say against you Theophilus Thou doest wronge to complaine as for my part of thou canst not say that I euer did interrrupt thy talke and but that I haue alwayes suffred al that thatthou wouldest speake hearing thée in all patience and modesty Thomas I am well content for my part to giue vnto thée the day which I ought to haue for my self if this here be not sufficient for thee For I haue not so much learning and knowledge but that I am more fitter to be a hearer then a Dector Hillarius Wée wil giue thée as long time as thou wilt But peraduenture you do not vndestand where Eusebius griefe lieth and on whiche side his shooe wringeth him I know not whether hee hath yet eate or dronke to day As for mée yesterdayes iorney admonished mee to take a little to drinke a draught of wine before I came the which thing is the cause that I am not so much thirstly as I was the day before although that we haue bene a long tyme about the fire As for Thomas I beléeue that he hath bene no more euill avuised than I and that he is no lesse disposed to drinke in the morning Touching Theophilus and Eusebius I feare very much but that they are yet fasting For Theophilus is a man very studious and fover which to eate little late infomuch that I do more greatly esteeme his sobriety dayly ordinary abstmence then the fastings of y priests Moonks As for Eâ—sel mâ— he is so superstitious that he fauoreth â—em what Mooukish wherefore I doubt not but for to make han obedient to y holy Mother the Romish Church doth fast fith that according to the ordinaunce of the same it is the day of fast Eusebius it is néedefull that I and others do fast For I am certeine that if the fastinâ—g had none other mainteiners then thou and such as thou art they should bee soone abolished Hellarms I know not what I should voe but at the least I am at this day ayded to mainteine them and a litle wanted but that I haue learned theée to faste after the auncient manner But thou oughtest not to finde that straunge For sith that we haue spoken of fasting it was in like manner requisit to practise it Yet neuerthelesse the eueming and the night are not yet come whiche was the time and the houre that the auncients vsed to reast themselues on the fasting dayes but to the end thou haue none occasion to complaine I thinke it best that thou doe defer that which thou hast yet to say vntill after drinking for my part I promise thee to suffer thée to speake as much as thou wilt and I will kéepe so good silence that thou shalt not checke mée as thou hast now done Eusebius I am content with that thou saiest so thou do kéepe thy promise But I greatly feare that thou wilt do nothing Hillarius Thou shalt sée before that thou do sleepe thou shalt haue the experience For I will leaue it ot thée and to Theophilus to do Then let vs go to refresh our bodies and in the meane time preprare thy selfe fot to fight valiantly THE SVMME OF THE fourth Dialogue BIcause that the enemies of the truth doe glory in themselues that they haue the auncient Doctors on their side for to mainteine their abuses and supersticions in this Dialogue Eusebius trauayleth all that he can for to vphold his Religion to proue his intent by the Ecclesiasticall Doctors vnto whom Theophilus sheweth how hee corrupteth and peruerteth the sence and intelligence of their words and how they do condemne the errors and abuses of the Papistes by occasion whereoff is also declared wherin somtime the auncient Doctors haue bene deceiued and ouercome following more the opinion of men then the certein witnes of the word of god And when how the papistical Purgatory hath begun what foundation stay shore it hath It is also amply intreated of what original and beginning the priuate and perticuler Masses came and the custome to sing them for the dead and the dispising of the holy sacrament of the supper of Iesus Christ and of the true Christian Communion And therefore this Dialogue is entituled the Age of the Masse and of Purgatory bicause that it sheweth how it was borne encreased augmented the Purgatory in like manner ¶ THE FOVRTH DIALOGVE which is called the Age of the Masse and of Purgatory THomas As farre as I can presume by the words which I haue heard of Eusebius I trust that I shal heare you to bring foorth a matter the which will please mée wel which I desire greatly to vnderstand For I sée dayly that men do blame you which are taken and accompted for Heretickes to corrupt peruert the sence of the holy Scriptures Men doe vnto you this honour to say that you will not receiue the witnesse nor the authoritie but of the holy Scripture and that you doe proue by the same all that which you put foorth hut all the euil is in this that you take them to your aduanÌ„tage and turne and wrest them to your sence and carnall intelligence and therefore you will not receiue the expositions of the good Doctors But I will sée now howe you canne beare it and whether the
dyd in their assemblies was called Collectes that is a gathering for two causes The first bycause that the people was ther assembled and gathered into a Communion The other bicause that in those holy assembles they dyd make gatheringes for the poore after the example of the primitiue Church Behold the name of the Christian assemblies which hath longe contynued amonge the auncientes before that the name of Masse was borne As it appeareth by the ecclesiasticall hystories as well by that same of Eusebius as by that which is called Tripertite As for the name of the Masse it is nowe inough Although that some are yet of opinion that that name came of the same cause wherefore the diuine seruice hath also bene called Collectes gatheringes and that it hath bene called masse bicause that in the same the offerings were brought which were there sent for to giue them vnto the poore For Missa in Latine signifieth things sent And those that are of that opinion doe thinke that all that which they doe and bring into those assembles was called Missa in the plurall number of which they haue made Missa and Misse in the singuler number And by good right For then when the offeringes are distributed vnto the poore one maye well call them Missa in the plurall number that is to saye sent For they were sent and deuided vnto many But nowe the Priestes doe wronge to call it Missa in the singuler number that is to saye sent For the offeringe is not sent but vnto them Wherefore they should haue more reason to cal it kept then sent For they do kepe al for themselues They haue wel kept the name of Collect. But in stéede of Collect signifieth amonge the auncyents all the content of the diuine seruice they do call by that name the prayers and Oremus that they doe singe before the Epistle Wherein well appeareth what was the custome of the auncientes and that the Deacons did make the gathering for the poore The which those héere doe make for themselues and doe singe the Epistle vnto the Deacons But for to retourne vnto the prayers for the dead and for to vnderstande that that which I speake is true Marke what Saincte Cyprian wryteth of one called Celerin who hath had a familie the which almost all suffered martyrdome of whom he hath written after this manner It is longe a gone that Celerin was crowned for a Martyr Item his vnckle of the fathers side and Laurence his vndle on the mothers side and Ignacius which sometime haue fought and bene souldiers in the worldly warre but béeinge the true and spirituall souldiers of God hauing ouercome the diuell thorow the profession of Christ haue obtayned of the Lorde the rewardes and crownes thorowe his glorious passion We doe offer alwayes as you remember sacrifices for them as often as wée celebrate the passions of the martyres and that we make commemoration and remembraunce vniuersally of their dayes Sith that hée witnesseth that Laurence and Ignacius haue receyued as béeing victoryous the palmes and and crownes of martyrdome there is no doubte but that they are already holden for Saintes and blessed and doe not thinke that they were yet deteyned in the paines of Purgatorye and that wée must make prayers and sacrifices for them that they myght bée deliuered from their sinnes and paines The thinge is so plaine that none can denye it For this sentence is very common and allowed amonge you and by your Canons That hée that prayeth for a Martyr doth wrong and iniurye to the Martyre For I doubte not but that in successe of time all thinges will bée come worse And aboue all I wyll aduertise thée that thou hast not proued vnto me that that manner of dooing was ordained by the Apostles in the primitiue Church For sainct Augustine and others whome thou hast alledged doe make mencion that the auncient fathers haue bene the authours and inuentours of that custome and that the Church of longe time hath kept it But they declare not that Iesus Christ nor his Apostles haue commaunded and ordained it And although that that Denis which hath written the Hierarchies maketh onely in one word mencion of the prayer for the dead which are buryed yet he proueth not by the holy Scripture that wée ought to doe it and hée speaketh not one woorde of Purgatorye But yet that that hée toucheth of the prayer for him whiche one buryeth is written after a sorte that he doth sufficiently declare that if was a vowe and a desire that the faithfull had of his health and saluation and a witnesse that they doe giue not that the same came of an opinion that they had eyther of Purgatory nor of the paines which the soules of the faithfull shoulde suffer after their departinge from this life Wherefore their witnesse serueth mée for to proue at the leastwise that suche custome is not of the ordainaunce of the Apostles sith that they cannot bring foorth any other certeine wytnesse but that they report it vnto the auncient fathers For by that which hath bene already declared and expressed it is easely to know what the commemoration of Martyres haue bene and of the faithfull that bée dead sithence the tyme of Tertulian and Cyprian And doubt not but that that which the auncients haue done was partlye and principally for to abolish the Parentales and other superstitions which the Gentiles had about the dead as already hath bene amply declared For they did thinke that it would be very hard so pul them away if in stéed of their customes they had not put in some other for so content them for them to muse and studye oil As wée maye sée by that which Sainct Augustine hath written of gluttony and dronkennesse which was vsed in his time of the buryalls of the dead and in halowinge the Churchyardes He sayth that they cannot bée abolyshed if one dooe not forbid that villany by the Scriptures and that the oblations which they make for the soules of the deade vppon theire sepulchres bée not sumptuous nor of great cost and that one shoulde giue cheerefully and wythout pride vnto all those that demaunde it and that they sell them not But if there bée any that will offer anye money that it bée distrubuted presently vnto the poore Sainct Augustine gyueth sufficientlye to vnderstande that the auncientes haue bene constrayned to inuent and bring foorth many Ceremonyes in the Churche for to chase and driue awaye the Idolatry and superstition of the Panims The which also afterwardes were corrupted as wée may sée this day by experience insomuch that they are more daungerous then those of the Panims I thinke that that which hath bene alreadye entreated of the feast of Sainct Peters chaire the whiche they celebrate in February agréeth to that very purpose whereoff Sainct Augustine hath spoken Hillarius It is most true that those auncient fathers would haue driuen away the superstition by such inuentions
the third whiche was made about a thousande two hundreth yeres after the natiuitie of Iesus Christ Although that Albert alledgeth other reasons but those haue bene the causes Behold how the Christians haue bene led and into what pit and depthe the Commemoration of the quicke and of the dead in the supper hath drawen them There remained none but the Greekes which haue kept it well and which haue kept néerest and moste constantly by y auncient custome of the Apostles For yet at this day they doe not allow the perticuler Masse and they take not y Euchariste but with company that the minister doth distribute it to the people And this is very cléere and plaine vnto the Churches which they haue agreat nomber of theÌ„ vnder the seigniory of the Venitians Also they coulde not suffer that one shoulde depriue them of the Cuppe or Chalice the whiche is one of the partes of the Sacrament but doe kéepe still that communion as it was vnder both kindes from the time of the Apostles themselues in the Latin Churches in Africa and Europa untill the time of Fredericke the first Euen so haue they done in the article of Purgatory the whiche they woulde neuer agrée vnto although that it was receiued and allowed by the church of Rome Eusebius But although they haue resisted it of long time were they not in the ende constrayned to allow and acknowledge it and to abâ—ure their error and heresie at the councell of Florence consenting with the Romish Churche Theophilus Thou hast sayd very well constrayned For that Romish tyraunt neuer ceaseth vntyll hee hath seduced and brought subiecte vnto him all other Churches either thorow crafte and subtiltye or els by force violence Yet neuerthelesse before that the Greekes consented vnto him how long time haue they resisted And afterwards what are those that haue consented and after what sort whether that the Purgatory such as they haue preached vnto us vntill this present time was founded and binlved vpon the holy scriptures and worthy to bee holden and taken for an article of the faith as they haue constrayned vs it followeth that all the Greekes and all their Churches should haue bene heretickes vntill the yeare of our Lorde a thousand foure hundreth thirty and nine that the Councel was holden But how and by whom was it celebrated were there not then Scisines Antipopes in the Church For some of them did draw gather themselues towards Almaigne and assembled themselues at Basle at the Councel begun by Pope Martin the predecessor to Eugenius at which was the Emperour Sigismond with the Princes of Spaine Almaigne Pannonia and Fraunce Others assembled and gathered themselues together and went to the Councell of Ferrara which afterwards was transported to Florence bicause of the plague which was so cruell and terrible at Ferrara that all were very much afrayd chiefely the Greekes which trembled with feare Wherfore Pope Engenius who ruled at that Councell was constrained to transport and remoue it to an other place and to ende it at Florence Yet neuertheles forasmuch as the Greekes were so long time holden and kept in the doctrine of the auncient Church they shoulde not haue lost much to haue perseuered and continued stil in it And if they had well marked their case God gaue them warning ynough and aduertisements that hee tooke no great pleasure in that that they did take in hand sith that hée assayled them with that great horrible plague On the otherside they might well iudge how well they coulde agree with the komish Churche the whiche was deuided within it selfe and at discorde in the house For Pope Eugenius held his Councel at Ferrara at Florence and would not be assistant to that at Basle in whiche the Emperour was present On the coÌ„trary those which were assembled at the Councel of Basle would not acknowledge Eugenius for to be Pope but did choose an other to witte Ayme Duke of Sauoy who as then led an Hermits life at Ripailles but after an other sorte then the auncient Hermits in times past For his Hermitage was a goodly and pleasaunt Castle in a moste pleasaunt place harde by Thonon as it appeareth yet at this day After his election be was called Felix were not all these things proper and fit for to giue a faire shew vnto those Councels And that same of Florence in which the conclusion and agreement of Purgatorye was made with the Greekes ought it not greatly to bee esteemed for to haue an Eugenius for their President which hath moued all Italy and al Christendome to war And how shall the Greekes that were sent be acquited and discharged of their office Hillarius They haue betrayed both their countreis their Churches as they haue well declared by the dignities and offices which they haue receiued of the Pope Theophilus Therefore hath hée so well recompensed them For he hath made Rutenus and Nicenus Cardmals which were the chiefe with Bessarion who was also a Cardinall and Patriarke of Constantinoble If they had faithfully defended the trueth the Pope woulde not haue chosen them vnto such honors Hillarius Hee might as wel make theÌ„ Cardinals in such sorte as Rossensis was in England or after the sort as the Tyrants haue giuen the red hatte vnto the Martirs Theophilus Although that he hath done that the better to keepe by that meanes the Greekes subiect and bounce vnto him and to his dectrine yet neuertheles he hath not yet so well practised it nor bounde them but that they were by and by reuolted and truned vnto their first manners and that they had abandoned forsaken the Popish faith the whiche before they were ignorant off Hillarius Yet they should not haue lost muche if they had neuer learned any thing at all But I am not muche abashed though Bessarion hath easelye consented vnto the papisticall Purgatory For hee was a great Platonist and I beeleeue that hee was more exercised in the Philosophy of Plato then in the true Theology of heaueÌ„ly letter Whereâ—ore it is no meruaile if hee haue easely allowed Purgatory the which he hath already learned of his master Plato Theophilus Thou mayst now vnderstand Eusebius how the Churche is fallen from degree to degree sithens the time of the Apostles vntil the same of lâ—ertulian afterwards of Cyprian afterwards of Augustin and from him vnto Gregory and consequently vnto our time and how the superstition is so increased and augmented that by the meanes of the Purgatory and of the Masse the merite of the death and passion of Iesus Christ was altogether abolished You must not then compare the time present the estate of your Churches vnto the same of S. Augustin For there is to much difference betweene them It is â—â— euill lykelyhood that the thing in those dayes was somuch aduaunced And doubt not that if y holy man had thought that it would
haue fallen out so but that he would haue resisted it more strongly then wee doe at this day For hee could not haue suffred that the grace of Iesus Christ of which he was so greate a defender against the Pelagians should haue bene so altogether destroyed But the good man was ouercome bicause that then the puritie of the doctrine of the gospel the estate of the church was already very much decayed corrupted as we may easely iudge by that whiche Sainct Hierome witnesseth of the life of Malchus For he was not ashamed to write that the time and age in which hee liued and Sainct Augustin in lyhe manner who was of the same time was but filthynesse stinking in comparison of the same of the Apostles Thou hast alreadie heard the plaint the Sainct Augustin made of mans traditions with which the Church was ouercharged Amongst which he touched the Iewishnes and superstion whiche was yet kept in Africa We must not then be abashed if in those dayes there came vp new opinions touching the estate of the dead the whiche the auncient Churche was ignorant off Wee must not in like manner meruaile although some greate learned men haue bene wrapt in them For it happeneth commonlye that when men haue dreamed and inuented some new opinion they will also induce others and are angry against those that doe resist them insomuch that they will condempne them and if they bee the moste wisest and of greatest countenaunce they cary away the matter After that sorte was Aerius condempned chifely bicause he saide that it was not néedeful to pray nor to offer for the dead It happened to him as it did to Vigilantius Against whome Sainct Hierome hath writen so outragiously bicause that hee allowed not but rebuked the watchings whiche they made about the Sepulcres of the Martyrs bicause that he knew already the superstition which would follow S. Hierome was a great learned man but yet neuerthelesse a childe might iudge that hée did great wrong vnto Vigilantius and that hée shewed himselfe to bee too much a man and more superstitious then hee ought to bée For at this present the time declared vnto vs that the reason of Vigilantius was a great deale better then that of Hierome the abuses and Idolatries whiche haue followed that custome that Hierome hath mainteined doe mamsestlye declare that then Antechriste aduaunced the secret of iniquitye to whome Hierome obeyed without takinge anye heede Nowe lette vs thinke that sorasmuche as suche a manue as hée was dyd defende so sharpelye mans tradytions and childithe supershtious what authorytye canne the little ones haue whiche doe put themselues againste it or withstande it and what shall the pore people doe Then when Sainct Augustin did beginne to write hee did then finde owers opinions of the suffâ—nges and prayers for the dead among those of the Church or the Doctors of the Church and the question of Purgatory stirred vp and moued the which hee also hath sifted and fanned He then perceiuing the opinions and reasons of others which were not without appearance of wisedome and holines whiche are the titles which the Apostle attributeh vnto mans trabitions was somwhat troubled and moued and burst not altogether condempne them That was the cause wherefore he spake of that matter after diuers sortes doubtfully and that he seemeth some time to speake against himselfe When hee had no regarde but to the pure worde of God hee hath well spoken as I will make it by and by appeare But when hee had regard vnto the opinions and reasons of others and grounded himself vpon mans Phylosophy more then vppon the certeine worde of God hee founde himselfe sometime in great perplerity and doubt and hath followed sometime more his humaine reason then the verity of God reuealed vnto him For when all shall be well considered where in differeth that difference that hee putteth betweene the estates of the dead from the doctrine of Plato Furthermore do wee not see that when he speaketh of the fire of Purgatory for the other life that he speaketh alwayes as bucerteine and as of an opinion probable and like to bee true the which he dareth not certeinly allow nor disalow But saith that one may dispute of that question and alwayes leaue it in suspense Nowe who would thinke it like be true that that holy man beeing a great keper an obseruer of the ecclesiastical catholicke doctrine would haue so spoken and written of that matter if in his time that doctrine of Purgatorye had bene receiued and allowed of the Churche for certeine and sure in that sorte that those whiche at this present doe receiue so great gaine woulde condcmpne as Herâ—tickes not onely those that doe say the contrary but also all those whiche beleeue it not to be an article of faith necessary vnto saluation How could hee call into doubt an article of faith authorised and confirmed by the Churche nowe wee cannot denye but that the doctrine of our faith is alwayes one eternall and like vnto it selfe and that the Apostles haue so taught and instructed the Churches that they haue not hyd from them any thinge necessary vnto their saluation which ought not afterwardes to bee reuealed and chiefely that which toucheth the offices of loue and charitie without which we are nothing towardes god There is yet an other point that is that he himselfe is not of the opinion that the prayers and ofteringes of the wicked may bee agreeable to god To the which opinion the papisticall Doctors dare verye well speake agaynst and affirme that it ought not to be holden but that it is too harde and rigorous notwithstanding the hee alloweth it by the holy Scriptures bicause that it depriueth the deade from mercye and from so manye goodly prayers and suffrages and woulde cause the charytie of those that bee aliue to ware colde towardes them Hillarius I am not abashed For they shoulde lose much if none shoulde offer vnto them but good men It is vnto them to whome the sentence is to hard not vnto the dead Theophilus If they bee so bolde to reproue the sentence of the auncient Doctors when it is not fit for their purpose although that it bee confirmable vnto the Scripture wherefore may not wee reiect it when it shall be contrary vnto it As touchinge that which thou hast in lyke manner declared of his mother Monica requyring that they should make remembraunce of hir in the celebration of the Sacrament it maketh no greate matter That was the affection of a woman as that which shee had to bee buryed hard by hir husbande For there is no doubt that the affeâ—â—ion that wee haue towardes the dead maketh that wee also desire that others should haue the lyke affection towardes vs â—nd wee must not bee â—bashed if such humame affections doe reigne sometimes in vs For wee our selues doe see that those holy
Christian people to beleeue confesse as an artycle of saith that which they haue dreamed and inuented iudgeing and condemning for hereticks all those which do speak against it in such sort that it is more daungerous to speake against withstand their decrées decretals then the commaundement of god For our Lord Iesus Christ sayth that all sinne committed by men may be pardened except the sinne and blasphemy against the holy ghost But it is written in the decroes and Canons woe do commauÌ„d that all decretall constitutions of all the Popes should boe kept in such sort that if any doe commit any thinge contrary vnto them that he doe know that pardon is denied vnto him and that he shall not haue it Hillarius I do then conclude by that Canon that sinne against the Pope is sinne against the holy ghost bicause there is no pardon We must not iest with them I will compare them to the Academians but I had a great deale rather that they were like vnto them then suche as they are Theophilus It should be a greate deale better to define nothing rashly of that whereoff they cannot be certeyne and to followe the Counsell of Sainct Augustin speaking of the riche man of whom mention is made in S. Luke It is better to doubt of secret things then to pleade of vncerteine things I doubt not but that we must vnder stand that the riche man is in moste extroeme hot paines and torments and that poore Lazarus in ioy and comfort But in what sort one ought to vnderstand that flame and fire of hell that bosome of Abraham that tongue of the ryche man that finger of poore Lazarus that thirst of torment that droppe of refressing with much a doe we can finde of those which doe séeke it with meekenes and modesty but of those which do debate of it with contention and strife many Hillariu If Sainct Auguslin had alwayes followed that whiche he teached here his doctrine would haue bene more pure and would haue spoken yet more soberly then he hath done of the suffrages for the dead sith that he had no sure nor certeine witnes in the worde of God. Theophilus Iesus Christ hath not fore spoken without cause that if it were possible the very elect shoulde boe seduced and deceiued by the false Prophets false Christs Wherefore wee ought not to meruaile although Sainct Augustâ—n and such as he was haue sometime bene ouercome But for vs we ought rather to be more confirmed in the doctrine of the Gospell seeing it fulfilled before ouâ— eyes we ought well to learne by the example of others to walke in the feare of God without straying or wandring any thing after our opinions and fantasies For if already from the time of the Apesties Antechrist did béeâ—in his raigne and worke his secret of iniquitie we muste 〈◊〉 doubt but that he was muche aduanced in the time of Sainct Augustin And the Apostle calleth not without cause his worke and busines the mistery of iniquity For he hath proceeded and gone forwarde so secretly craftely and subtilly that the most holyest and best learned haue bene ouercome vse hath of a long time hatched his Cockatrice and Basilikes eggs before hee could bee perceiued and hath practised his matters so subtilly vnder the earth that scant one could know to what ende he tendeth vntill such time as he hath ended and finished his worke and that Iesus Christ by his Gospel hath opened and reuealed it to his electe as wée doe sée by experience at this present time And as I trust shal doe yet more hereafter Wherefore we knowing into what inconueniences our fathers are fallen into yea the wisest and moste persect in attributing to much to the authoritie of men and to their opinions and traditions Let vs take heede to affirme and propound vnto the christians as an article of faith and doctrine necessary to saluation any thing of whiche wee haue no certeine witnes by the holy scripture of which by them wee are not cleerely resolued For that commeth thorow to greate temeritie and presumption the which God will not leaue vnpunished But whiche is more although the thing shoulde be very true and so as it hath bene preached vnto vs yet neuerthelesse sith that the worde of God doth not make anye expresse mention of it nor doth cléerely shew forth of whiche wee can drawe anye certeine consequence and of whiche wée haue no commaundement of GOD wee maye safelye bée ignoraunt of it without daunger of our saluation For sith that the Scripture is giuen vnto vs for our instruction not for vs to inquire of the estate of the dead but for to learne vs the way for to come vnto the place of that holy eternall rest and true felicity wée ought to content our selues to know that whiche is commaunded vs and whiche to the same is necessary for vs and wee may not bee ignoraunt of them without dammage and hurte of our saluation And therefore wée haue no néede but to holde vs to Iesus Christe and to assure our selues vpon his promises béeing certeine and sure that that whiche hée hath promised vnto that poore théefe hanging vppon the Crosse with him saying This daye shalt thou bée with mée in Paradise toucheth and concerneth euery one of vs as muche as him if we be true faithfull Behold the limittes whiche the Scripture appointeth vnto vs within which wée must dwell without tormenting our selues after the estate of the dead and Purgatory of which it maketh not mention of it one word Eusebius I know very well that although I shoulde alledge all the Doctors which haue bene sithens the death and passion of Iesus Christ vntill this present time that I shall profitte nothinge with you For when you perceiue that they are contrarye vnto your opinions you will not receiue them but when you thinke that they doe make for you But you will runile to the Scripture as the pleaders whiche haue an euill matter doe séeke and finde out all the delayes that they canne and do call alwayes from sentence to sentence what soeuer wrong it be or for to delaye theyr condempnation or vnder hope that they haue to finde out some practise or shyfte for to deceiue and ouercome theyr party and to corrupte the Iudges Wherefore I doe well perceiue that I shal be nothing with you if by the cleere and plaine texte of the Scripture I doe â—ot sloppe your mouth Theophilus If thou cansl do it theu hast gotten y victory For vnto the same doe apperteine the extreame or latter appellations And therefore it seemeth to mée that you do greater wrong then we without any comparison For we doe not put our selues out of reason nor from the ordinary of iustice sith that we doe appeale to none other then to our ordinary Iudge For what wrong to we vnto men if from them we doe appeale before
God which is the soueraigne Iudge of al creatures which hath already giué his sentence of our differences by his word and by the mouth of Iesus Christ his sonne and of all his Prophets and Apostles vnto the which we ought to stay our selues But you not beeing contented with them do appeale from God vnto men and from the counsell of the Prophets and Apostles of whom Iesus Christ is president chiefe thorow his holy spirite to the councels of men in whiche the Popes doe rule and are President who according to your doctrine haue such power and authority that they may dispence against the apostolicall doctrine the right of nature consequently against the Gospell the word of god For the Pope hath all the diuine and humaine rights in the cabin and chest of his breast that he ought to iudge euery one ought not to be iudged of any man insomuch that when he shal leade innumerable of people great companies into hell no mortal man ought here to checke and rebuke him of his faultes For he is god who cannot be iudged of men Hillarius It followeth then that if one doe see him to go to all the diuels to drawe thither all the worlde with him that none ought to saye vnto him that hee doth euill For hee that sayth it both iudgeth and rebuketh Eusebius The Canons do not deny but that he is to be rebuked if he be an hereticke that he erreth in the faith Theophilus But you do say that hee cannot erre And herefore when hee is an heretyke and out of the faithe dare we to rebuke him and his doctrine no not by our auâ—â—ority and silence but by the same of God and of all his Prophets and Apostles the whiche we do but propound yea whiche is more by that or the auncient Doctors as thou mightest haue seene and knowen if thou wouldest And if thou doe not content thyselfe with that I will shew vnto thee how that wicked Antechrist condempneth himselfe of his owne mouth and confesseth that there is no such Purgatory as he woulde establish For hee himselfe confesseth after that he is much glorified that God whiche hath saued all men knoweth no worke of imperfection And for that cause be pardoneth not sinnes in part Therefore the glose made vpon that text alledgeth two verses conteining that sentence The great goodnes of god will not pardon the halfe For when with teares wéeping thou comest vnto him hee will giue thée all or nothing Now if it were so that God reserueth one part of the sinnes for to be punished in Purgatory as you do affirme it should follow that God worketh not but halfe with his seruants the whiche none can say without blasphemy For the workes of God are perfect Wherefore if thou haue not Eusebius any better refuge in the holye Scripture then thou hast yet shewed foorth thou hast lost thy cause by the sentence of God and of all his seruants yea of Antechrist himselfe whom the vertue of God compelleth to confesse the trueth against his owne nose and inspite of his teeth as the diuels did confesse Iesus Christe feeling his power the which they could not resist Thomas Thou doest here what matters these people here haue declared vnto thee Eusebius Thou haddest almoste wonne me at the beginning of this disputation confirmed mee in thine opinion when that I heard thee propound the words of Sainct Augustin But now after that I hearde their replyings I am more vncerteine then before Wherefore I muste here the rude of that cause the last sentence the whiche is giuen by the word of god I haue determined to declare vnto you the cause of my voyage as I haue promised after that Eusebius shal haue done with you But I am content to deferre it vntill tomorrow to the ende I maye returne vnto you more resolued Wherfore I pray thée Eusebius that thou prepare thy selfe to fight with them valiantly by the sword of the word of God and that we may see the ende of that Purgatory and also of the Limbe whereof the matter hath bene broken off hath not ben followed nor resolued Yet neuerthelesse this is one pointe the which I desire almoste asmuch the resolution as of the Purgatory And to the end you may haue the more leasure to debate of the matter I will hold you no longer But bicause that it is now so late therfore me thinketh that it shal be better to take the time at our pleasure Hillarius I do like wel Thomas his counsell Theophilus I am content that we do suffer graunt vnto Eusebius all that he would haue to the ende we giue him none occasion to complaine that he hath had no time and the meane to defende his cause Eusebius Sith that it is so I doe agrée to your opinion But it is vppon such condicion whiche is of force that before that I departe from you either that you be of mine opinion or I of yours wherevppon saye a dieu farewell Vnto the Reader It seemeth vnto mee good to adde vnto thee here the sequence of those that bee dead in Latin the whiche was omitted in the margent Fol. 167. where it is translated faithfully into English meeter Oratio siue sequentia ad beatam Mariam pro defunctis Lugentibus in purgatorio Qui torrentur ardore nimio Et torquentur sine remedio Subueniat tua passio O Maria. Fonses patens quae culpas abluis Omnes sanas nullum respuis Manum tuam extende mortuis Qui sub poenis languent continuis O Maria. Ad te pia suspirant mortui Cupientes de poenis erui Et adesse tuo conspectui Et gaudis aeternis persrui O Maria. Clauis Dauid quae coelum aperis Nune beata succurre miseris Qui tormentis torquentur asperis Educ eas de domo carceris O Maria. Lex iuslorum Norma credentium Vera salus in te sperantium Pro desunctis sit tibi sludium Assidue orare silium O Maria. Benedicta per tua merita Te rogamus mortuos suscita Et dimittens corum debita Ad requiem sis eis semita O Maria. FINIS ¶ The table of the principall matters of the seconde parte of the Christian disputations A. A Bell hearing Masse 184 Abragan 154 Abstinence and seperation from women 141. Abstinence from lawfull thinges 141. Abstinence from beasts flesh 170 Abstinence from meates 171. Accidents burned 161. Accidents without substance 162. Adam prest 185. Admirasion of the water and salt 152. Adonis 150. Aduent 139. Aerius 192. Eaesculanus 143. Affection folish towards the deade 181. Affection of women that followed Iesus 193. Alleluya 150. Alexander Pope 141. 163. Alexander Natiuitie 156. Amburbales 149. Aneylia 161. Anchiles 129. Anniuersaries 128. 130 Anexagoras 123. Aunswere to the place of the 19. Chap. of Exodus 117. 144 Antipopes 190 Antiquitie of the name of Masse 183. Antiquitie of the
the aunerent Doctors of the Church he laboureth and enforceth himselfe if he can relieue it through the ayde and helpe of the holy Scripture and taketh for his first defence and weapons the second booke of the Marchabees by occasion whereoff is intreated the difference which ought to be put betweene the bookes that are Canonicall those that are Apocryph And it is in like manner declared in what authoritie reputation that booke ought to be among the Christians Afterwards although peraduenture there shal be some matters which may seeme somewhat curious vnto some men yet neuertheles shall be spokē of the Limbes as wel of the auncient fathers as of the young children that are borne dead dead without circumcision baptisme of the difference which may be betweene thē which haue ben vnder the new old testamēt as wel little as great as wel quick as dead of their condition estate We do entreate of those things very amply bicause that many do moue questions that there is good prositable necessary points to be vnderstanded for to correct many errors abuses false opinions thuching those matters which are come among the Christians Ther shal be in like manner spoken of baptisine administred by womē declared by liuely plain reasons how Iesus Christ is the onely health satisfaction of all the elect children of God how the vertue efficacie of his death pasion extendeth it selfe frō the beginning of the world vnto the ende of the same Item what is the true baptisme of Iesus Christ the remission of sinnes the satisfaction worthy of the righteousnesse of god To what ende the god woorkes doe profit the Christian What is the iudgement of God vpon the good and euill and by what means some are deliuered and other some doe abide subiect Furthermore how the iudgement is alredy done vpon euery one and whether we ought yet to attend loke for it And how Hel and Paradise doe begin already in this world when their full and whole consumation shal bee It shal be in like manner declared how the place of the Machabees serueth nothing at all to proue the Purgatory And there shall be also declared of the manner by which the auncient people of God haue prayed for the dead and for the comming of Iesus Christ and wherein the Christians may follow it without speaking against the word of god It shal be also touched how in our time and by what meanes Sathan endeuoured himselfe to establish his Purgatory and the prayers for the dead and what maske instrument he hath chosen for to do that Wee doe call this Dialogue the Hels bicause that wee doe declare how many hel 's the Papisticall doctrine hath forged for vs and the lodgings and chambers that it hath there builded ¶ THE FIFTH DIALOGVE which is called the Hels EVsebius For as much as Thomas hath reserued for himselfe one part of this day for to make his Narration and of hys owne accord hath graunted vnto mée the greatest parte therefore it is good reason that hée do begin first Wherfore I giue him the choice whether he will go before or behinde Hillarius I desire for my part that Thomas doe rehearse first the cause of his enterprise and voyage For I doe much desire to heare it and vnderstand it Thomas Thou oughtest not to be much desirous of it For thou canst not heare of me any thing which is much worth Wherefore I am well content to holde my peace if you wyll For I feare greatly that after that you haue heard mée you will mocke me chiefly Hillarius who is so expert in that occupation I beléeue that it is the chiefest cause wherefore hée so greatlye desireth to heare my wordes Wherefore I thinke it best Eusebius that thou doe procéede-forwarde and prosecute thy intent For the matters that you haue to intreat off are better then those which you can heare of mée And in hearing you I may profite but in speaking I can but spende the time the which you wil employ and best nine to a better ende And therefore beginne and after if there be any spare time I will sée what I shal do Theophilus I beleeue that we shal haue time inough Feare not thē to begin sith y thou hast alredy told vs y thou wilt not be ouer long But thou wilt make vs finde the thing good For that cause dost loue to be entreated so much knowing that the more thou refusest to tel vnto vs that we demaund so much y more we desire it Thomas I haue regard vnto another thing I consider y which Salomon hath writtē saying if a foole do hold his tongue he shal be counted wise For he compareth man to a loohing glasse or a bell y which one doth know by the sounde whether they be broken or whole So in like manner may one iudge of man in hearing him speake whether hée be wise or foolish For one perceiueth the spirit of man in his word As his figure in a glasse and one may beholde in the same the nature of him as the complection of the body in his water vrine by which it is easie to iudge what drogues hee hath in the shoppe of his braine Hillarius Thou wilt that one should saye of thée that which a Philosopher once said of a certeine man y he did sée sit at a banket which spake not a word although y all the others did put foorth certeine questiōs gaue vnto him matter inough for to speake in his course If that man saith he be a wise man hée playeth the part of a foole if he be a foole he playeth the part of a wise man. Thomas I cannot well vnderstand that matter For me thinketh that it conteineth implyeth contradiction Hillarius He giueth therby to vnderstand that euen as too much speaking apperteineth vnto fooles ideots so alwaies to holde ones peace agréeth to beasts and not vnto men Wherfore ther must be a meane kept in all things Thomas That is the same to the which I pretend And I doe thinke that I speak ynough according to the place men with whom I am And bicause y I am not wise for to speak wel I wil at the leastwise thorow silence thorow silence counterfet the wise For it is cōmonly said it is euil to speak Latin before learned men When I am with ignoraunt men as my selfe I doe speake as a Doctor especially if I thinke that I haue the moytie of a dragme or scruple more of knowledge then they But when I come before you I doe loose by and by all my babling Hillarius Thou wouldest héere very gladly make an ende But thou must first declare vnto vs that thou hast promised Thomas Sith y thou vrgest mée so much thou shalt haue it But if thou doest mocke mée bée assured that I shall haue as good matter agaynst thee for
I did before I haue very much lost my fantasie You doe well remember that I sayd that after that I had spoken to the holy father who hath so well disciffered that matter that paradueÌ„ture I should haue gained my voiage without going vnto him I feare very much that before that I depart from you you will cut off all the way and make it shorter For I hope through the helpe of God that we will visite this day all those chambers infernall habitations without mouing our selues from hence and before that we depart if that the one and the other of you doe that whereof you brag and baunt your selues you will. For you haue promised on euery of your partes that you will haue recourse to none other Iudge but to the pure word of god And as for mée if you take it for the Iudge I am wel content to take it for my guide And I am certeine that it will guide mée better then Cyble guided Aeneas Theophilus If thou doe not hold thy selfe assured Dauid who speaketh by experieÌ„ce can certify thée saying Thy woord O Lords is a lanterne vnto my féete That guyde will not conduct and lead thée vnto thy fathers that are dead as Virgile did cause Aeneas to bée lead of Syble vnto his father Anchises but it will lead thée vnto the liuing God thy immortall father whome by the same thou shalt heare speaks for to put thée out of all doubt Hillarius Ther is also an other point that when we shal haue ended the voiage we shal not go by the gates of dreams as Aeneas or as our holy father whom we haue heard dreame so wel as all such as hée is doe which repose rest themselues in any other bed then vppon the pure word of god For it hath such vortue that whosoeuer resseth vpon it shall neuer dreame nor rane or if hée dreame hée goeth not by the gates of Iuory but by the horne gate which is cléere through the which one may sée as with the eyes in such sort that such dreames are more certeine then that which others doe sée with their eyes as it appeareth in those of Ioseph and Daniel But he that will lye or rest himselfe in any other bed shall neuer cease to dreame and wander astray out of the waye And all their dreames doe go by the gate of Iuory which is thicke as the bones are Wherfore one can perceiue nothing by the same as we doe sée by experience in our Theologians and Sophists whiche are so obscure and darke that one can sée nothing at all For after the they haue well banketed moisted theÌ„selues w that good Theological wine they haue the spirite of wine the which the great God Bacchus hath inspired them maketh them to enter by the gate of Iuory that is to saye betwéene the téeth and chawes which causeth so many exhalations of that diuine licor well tempered with wine so many fumes and heates to ascende and mount into the braine that they do dreame more déeper then the lowest parte of hell and the seate of Lucifer Afterwards they refurne béeing rauished in their Poetical furor madnesse as if they were departed all newly and freshe But euen as their dreames are entred by the gate of Iuory by force of the wing and mouing their chawes and cockscombes as the Organ bellowes so doe they go foorth by the very same gate Thomas Let vs then go in by the other gate and in such fobrietie that we may know the things as though we saw theÌ„ w our eyes But who shal begin to declare shew it vnto vs mée thinketh the Eusebius maketh himself ready Begin then to knocke cause it to be opened vnto vs Eusebius I will enter first by the olde testament Hillarius But take good héede you lead vs not awrye and totake the one for the other For if thou doe erre and go astray we will direct and leave thée into it againe Eusebius But I will direct and leade you well Giue eare then vnto that which is written of Iudas Machabens who sent to Hierusalem two thousande Dragmas of stluer for to be offered for a sacrifice for the sinnes of those which were dead In which place he did well and right For he had some consideration and pondring of the lyfe that is after this time For if hee had not thought that those which were slaine did yet liue it had bene super fluous and vaine to make any vow or sacrifice for them that were dead But for so much as he saw that they whiche dyed in the fauour and beléefe of God are in good rest ioy he thought it to be good and honorable for a reconciling to doe the same for those which were slaine that the offence might be forgiuen Is it possible to finde a terte more cléerer Wherfore did Iudas Macchabeus send such a summe of Siluer the number of two thousand Dragmas which are worth a thousand and two hundreth Crownes if wee accompt them after our money if he had not bene certeine that the offrings and prayers of the lining did profitte the dead Theophilus Thou doest here open vnto vs a goodlye field to dispute off and wil engâ—der to vs many questions the which I will propound vnto thée and we will declare them at large one after an other and afterwards we wil iudge in the ende whereto that place can serue you for to proue Purgatory I doe then first demaunde of thée in what reputation thou hast that bookes of the Macchabees and whether thou do holde them for canonicall or Apocripha Eusebius I hold it but for such as it is that is to say holy Canonical and allowed of the catholike Church For is it not conteined in the Bible Theopilus I do not benie but that it is fastened sowed in betwéene or among the bookes of the Greeke and Latin Bible but it followeth not therefore that it is Canonical of such Authority as the others which we haue receiued of the Hebrews which alwayes haue bene receiued allowed of all the catholicke Churche without any contradiction Eusebius I am not now abashed though you will not receiue the authority of the auncient Doctors sith that you are so shamelesse that you dare condempne and reiect the very proper bookes of the holy Scripture I doe know by experience that you must haue a Bible made according or after your owne pleasure For you are like vnto the auncient heritickes which will not take out of the holy scriptures but the places whiche they thinke moste méete and proper for to giue colour to their herefies and do reiect all the other as vnworthy of the spirite of god Is not that to great arrogancie to make the spirite of God his word to be subiect vnto your iudgement Thou mayst wel perceiue Thomas that now they doe féele themselues muche gréeued when they are constrayned to refuse
the Iudge vnto whom they haue appealled and which in stéede to be iudged of him they would iudge him Theophilus Stay a while Eusebius Thou hast not yet gotten or obteyned thy sute Thinke not that wée are become Papistes sithens that we haue spoken vnto thée And that we woulde attribute vnto our selues authority power and iudgment aboue the spirite of God as he doth wée doe leaue that office vnto Antechrist to whom alone it apperteineth We haue not vsed to reproue one onelye stllable of the holy Scriptures But if we discerne put difference betwéene the bookes that are Canonical those that are Apocripha thou oughtest not to accuse vs therefore except thou doe by that same reason render culpable of the like crime the auncient Doctors of the Church chiefely Sainct Hierome and in like manner your decrées and Canons whiche doe seperate those that are Canonicall from those that bée Apocrapha amongst whiche they doe put the bookes of the Machabees Eusebius I confesse that amonge the Iewes it hathe not bene receiued for Canonicall in theyr Sinagogue but it hathe not bene therefore reiected of the Church Wherefore I conclude that those that beny that they are not canonicall are not the sonnes of the Church but bastardes of the Sinagogue Hillarius Thou hast at the leaste kepte that same of â—ccius Behold one shot of his Canons Theophilus If it be so Wherefore then did not S. Hierom enroul it among the Canonicals in that prolegne in whiche be hath recited them all in order doest thou thinke that he would haue rather omitted these here then the other And in the prologue that hee calleth Galeatus which he hath set before the bookes of the Kings both hee not make expresse mention of those bookes amenge the Apocriphas and principally of the second out of y which the place by thée alleged is taken For hee saith that hée hath founde the first written in Hebrew But not the seconde the which hath bene onely written in Greeke The whiche thing as he saith may proue it selfe by the pâ—rase and manner of the speaking the which hée vsed To the which agréeth well that which hee writing against the Pelagians nameth Ioseph for the author of the historye of the Machabees vnderstanding that by him it was written Then if by the testimonye and witnes of Sainct Hierome that history hath bene written by Ioseph bâ—ée ought not to estéeme it to be of more greater authority theÌ„ the other bookes of Ioseph the which we do reade â— no receiue as histories very profitable But a greate deale wantoth that we should attribute vnto them so much authoritie as vnto those the whiche we doe knowe without all doubt to be y body of y holy Scripture Therefore said S. Hierome in the Prologne that hee made before the booke of the Prouerâ—es of Salomon The Church doth read the bookes of the Machabees but shee receineth them net among the Canonical Eusebius Then wherfore hath Sainct Augustin written that the Church holdeth them as Canonicall Theophilus Consider well how he hath writen in that same place which thou alledgest speaking of the number of the times which haue bene sithence the returning from Babilon vntill the comming of Iesus Christe Did he not write that the account and number of them are not found in the holy Scriptures which are called Canonicall but in the other among which are the bookes of the Machabees Doest thou not sée and perceiue that he seperateth those bookes from the body of the holy Scriptures Eusebius Wherfore dost thou cut off fthe tayle why dost thou not adde that which followeth afterwardes The whiche sayth hée the Iewes hold not for Canonical but the Church doth Theophilus But doth he not adde by and by the reason wherefore the which serueth to my purpose Eusebius Hee sayth that it is bicause of the vehement and merueilous passions of some Martirs whiche haue fought euen vnto deathe for the lawe of GOD before that Iesus Christ came in the fleshe and suffred griefes and horrible torments Theophilus He vnderstandeth by those Martirs the seuen brothers of the Machabees with their mother who loued rather that Antiochus shoulde dismember and torment them cruelly then they would obely his commaundements for to violate the law of god It is easie to vnderstand by those words that the Church hath not receiued those bookes in suche authoritie as those which haue bene holden alwaie sin the Prophetical Apostolical church nor to be sufficient for to allow confirme or for to builde any doctrine which ought to be holeÌ„ for an article of faith for to vanquish the hereticks But only in such stéede as we haue at this day the ecclesiastical histories legends of martirs not a heape of foolish fabulous legends made by a heape of dreaming and deceiuing Caphards and Moonks as are the liues of the fathers the golden legend and other like more worthy to be numbred with the Roman of Fierobras Orson Valentine the erring kinghtes Mandeuill or the true narrations of Lutian and others like made for pleasure then among the Ecclesiasticall histories But they haue bene in suche reputacion among the wise men as the bookes of Iosephus Eusebius Sozomenus Theodoritus Socrates and such other whiche haue written the Ecclesiasticall histories and the liues of Martyrs for to keepe the remembraunce in the Churche as in a Chornicle for to edifie and comforte with good examples But not that they are of such authoritie that they are sufficient for to sette foorth anye newe doctrine of whiche wee haue no certeine witnes in the Apoostlicall doctrine And that it is euen so as I doe saye I will not proue it by anye other witnes then by the same whiche thou bringest foorth against mee That is to saye Sainct Augustin who hath written in an other place after this manner saying The Iewes haue not the scripture of the Machabees as the Law the Prophets and Psalmes to the which the Lord Iesus rendereth witnes as vnto this witnesses saying All must bee fulfilled whiche are written of mée in the Law of Moses and in the Prophets nad in the Psalmes But that Scripture is receiued of the Churche not without profit if one doe reade and marke it soberly Doth hée not euidentlye declare by those wordes howe muche the authoritie of the same is abased in comparison of the others the whiche Iesus Christe taketh for witnesses Asmuche maye one gather out of an olde booke whiche contayneth the exposition of the Créede and beareth the title of Sainct Cyprian Hée plainelye sheweth that that booke holdth no palce in the auncient Churche Wherefore it is almoste folly to striue and fight so long time if it were not but that our aduersaries doe make the poore ignoraunt people beléeue that it is of the holy Scripture and that we doe deny it After that sorte haue bene allowed some bookes called the Canons oâ—
be deliuered finally all saued Thomas Now bare they say y sith y the holy scripture witnesseth so euidentlye that the paines of hel are eternall y our lord Iesus Christ called y hel fire eternall inextinguible Theophilus What other reasons haue y heriticks for to fight against y veritie thē their humain opiniōs or some place of y holy scripture depraued corrupted by their false vnderstanding They haue no building or foūdatiō but y it is easie to ouerthrow But we haue not now to dispute against those olde Origenistes which are raysed vp againe of y Catabaptistes y which are already vāquished ynough but we haue to work against the papistes whō by good right we may cōpare vnto those cal thē new Origenistes aswel as y Catabaptists There is no difference but that the Catabaptistes are not so much couered and disguised and that they do rayse vp againe too openly the olde errors and heresies the which are taken all readye for condempned But the Papistes haue found an other maske and an other manner to procéede by which Sathan in them hath founde the meanes to redresse and amende that bell of the Origenistes in dysguising onely a little the building after an other sort For when all shal be well considered I knowe not wherein those whom you lodge in the Limbe and Purgatory doe differ from those whom the Origenistes and Catabaptistes did hold and accompt for dampned except you will saye that the paine and hell of the one continueth more then of the other Eusebius There is a great deale more For notwithstanding that al were tormented yet neuertheles those which were in the Limbe were a great deale lesse then those which were deteyned in Purgatory For there is no fire in the Limbe and they haue none other paine sauing that they cannot yet sée the face of God and haue the full ioy fruition of Paradise the whiche they doe farye for much desiring it which was vnto them a great torment as vnto euery one which tarieth for the goodnesse that he desireth and cannot haue it so soone as he would In like manner those which were in Purgatorye and are yet at this present do not suffer so gréeuous torments without comparison as the dampned that are deteined in hell fire But they haue yet neuerthelesse more fire then those whiche were in the Limbe Theophilus Thou shalt be yet compelled to come vnto my sayings For what other thing may I conclude by thy wordes but that there is three helles betwéene whiche thrée is no difference but that the one os more cruel then the other as the torments prisons of the Tyrants are For Theologians do affirme that there is two sortes of paines in Purgatory to wit the paine of Dam and the paine of the sence By the payne of Dam they vnderstand the dammage and hurt that the soules doe receiue for the long tarying and let that they haue to sée the face of God and to bée in possession of the ioyes of Paradise By the paine of the sence they vnderstand the tormentes which the soules doe féele of the fire by the which they are punished Now iudge what difference can be First what more greater paine can the dampned haue then this héere Sith that your Doctors do affirme that the fire of hell and of Purgatory is all one as to his substaunce and that after the daye of the last iudgement Purgatorye shall bee mingled with Hell and they shal be but one selfe thing Thou canst not heere finde any other difference sauing that Purgatorye is not a perpetuall hell neyther an eternall hell fire but that it hath a certeine ende and that the Limbe is a halfe Hell. For there is but the paine of Dam sith that there is no fire The which yet neuerthelesse your Doctors ds affirme to be so great that it surmounteth all the paines of the world And for to proue it they alledge Sainct Augustine saying To be an estraunger from the kingdome of God depriued from the swéetnesse of God is a paine so great that ther are no torments that may be compared vnto them And Chrisostome saith Many are afrayde of the Bell fire but I estéeme a paine a great deale greater then the hell fire tha fall from that glorye Thou doest then see whether I doe wronge to call the Limbe Hell. But ther is yet a difference betwéene the paines of the auncient fathers which were deteyned and kept in the Limbe and the children that are borne dead For that halfe hell after your doctrine is vnto them eternall the which it was not vnto the auncient fathers But the better to declare and shewe foorth that matter I demaund of thée what thou thinckest the bosome of Abraham to be in which Lazarus rested I do not now dispute whether the example that our Lord propounded of the rich man of Lazarus is alledged as a true history or as a parable For whatsoeuer it bée Iesus Christ by the same declareth sheweth vnto vs the estate and condition of the elect reprobate after this mortal life declareth father vnto vs that which we ought to hold beléeue He maketh mention but of two places onely that is to say of hel fire in which the rich man was tormented of Abrahams bosome in which Lazarus was receiued He putteth not foorth a third place In like manner when he did send foorth his Apostles to preach he plainly declared the ther was but two wayes the broad way which leadeth to destruction and she narrow way which leadeth vnto life saying He that beléeueth and is baptised shall be saued But he that beléeueth not shal be dampned Wherefore I would gladly know of thée what thou vnderstandest by Abrahams bosome And whether thou doest take it for Purgatory or for the Limbe For thou canst not vnderstand it of hell nor of any place that is nigh vnto it sith that Abraham aunswered the rich man that there is a great space set betwéene those that are in Abrahams bosome and those which are in hell with the rich man that it is impossible the one can neither go nor come from the one of the places to the other Eusebius By Abrahams bosome I vnderstand the place in which were receiued the Patriarches Prophets other holy men which dyed in the faith of Abraham the father of the beléeuers in the hope of saluation benediction the they ought to receiue by Iesus Christ our Lord the true séede of the blessing promised vnto Abraham Theophilus Then thou doest then take it for the Limbe For Limbus in the Latin tongue signifieth the hem or gard of a gowne or of any other garment Hillarius Yea in déed whosoeuer wil beléeue the witnes of al good Latin authors as Virgile and other like which often times do vse it and not in any other signification But peraduenture the
you but the opinions of the Doctors Wherfore I would gladly Eusebius that you would follow that matter and I desire that thou wouldest proue by the holy Scriptures that which thou affirmest of the yoūg children dead without circumcision baptisme Eusebius Doest thou thinke that I speake without the Scripture the which I wil not yet alledge with my gloses and expositions But for to giue more weight and credite vnto my probations I would thou shouldest beare the witnesse of them by the mouth of the auncient Doctors namely of the worshipful Beda speaking after this manner Hée which now cryeth terribly healthfully by his Gopell except a man be borne of water the holy spirite he cannot enter into the kingdome of god The very same he cryed by his lawe the soule of him whose foreskinne of his flesh is not circumcifed shal perish from his people bicause he hath broken my testament Beholde a cléere probation as wel for the children of the Iewes as for those of the Christians Theophilus How vnderstandest thou that threatning against those which were not circumcised For God hath prefired eight dayes for to circumcise the young children Nowe if they doe dye before the eight day and the terme prescribed of God doest thou thinke that the saluation of those children be in daunger Eusebius The word of God excepteth neither little nor great but speaketh generally to all men Theophilus But there could haue bene no fault but in the transgressiō of the cōmaundement of god Sith then that God had determined for them the viij day wherefore ought the young children to perish which died before that terme For sith that God had lymitted the day I doubte not but that those who should haue circumcised them before the day prefired should do contrary vnto the cōmaundement of God. Eusebius I accorde vnto thée therein in those which should haue done that without necessitie and without the daunger of the death of the young childe But I beléeue that when there should haue bene any daunger they might circumeise them before that terme Theophilus And I beléeue the contrary For I can proue my reason by the Scripture the which thou canst not doo thine If it were so then as y sayst it should follow y god was not well aduised when he made that ordinaunce and that the Isralites shoulde be wiser by right and that hée should doe great wrong vnto them sith that he hath not aduertised them of that doing and that he gaue none exception It followeth in lyke manner if the circumcision had bene so necessary vnto saluation that all the woemen children and woemen should perish fith that they dyed all without circumcision the which yet neuerthelesse no man dareth to affirme sith that there hath bene so many holy women of whom the holy Scripture beareth vs witnes Eusebius It is easie to reproue thy consequence For in the institution of the circumcision it is spoken expressely of the males not of the females Theophilus The law yet neuerthelesse sayth euery soule euery person Wherefore if we must take the wordes by rigor without a fitte interpretation wée must comprehend the females if there had bene none other places which doe giue vnto vs the intelligence vnderstanding of the lawe besides that the institution of the same doth sufficiently declare that it extendeth not vnto the women Thē if the womē be exempt bicause that the lawe bindeth them not so are the Infants which dye before the eight day For they are not bound by the law before the terme or otherwise God would not haue held his peace sooner then of ther thinges which were not of so great importance But when the eight day was come I doubt not that if thorow contempning negligence and dispising the circumcision had bene omitted but y the Lord would haue bene greatlye offended not by reason of the signe but thorowe the rebellion and dispisinge of his woorde the which hee taketh in greate displeasure as he hath shewed the example of him that gathered sticks on the sabboth day It seemed that y fault was not great nor such as though he had committed a murther And yet neuertheles god punished him with a cruel death as though he had cōmitted the greatest crime in the world It is then an other thing to haue omitted any ceremony cōmanded of God thorow negligence dispising rebellion or to haue left it vndone thorow necessitie or bicause that it was not possible For when there is let such that man cannot auoyde it and that this minde and will was good and hath trauayled as much as hée can for to execute it I doe not beléene that god imputeth the fault vnto him vnto whom hée was not bounde For the saluation of men consisteth in the alliaunce which the Lord hath made with vs by the which doth the small and greate are receiued and ioyned together in the company and fellowshippe of the people of god We doe not denye but that that alliaunce is signed and sealed by the sacramēts and that the baptisme is but the signe and seals among the Christians as the circumcision was amonge the Iewes But it followeth not therefore that it is firme and certeine inough without that signe and seale Wherfore there is no doubt but that those which do shut vp the kingdome of heauen vnto the infants for want and lack of the signe do vnto them great wrong and do béely the promises of God which by them haue pronounced them to be his before y they were borne saying that he is our God and the God of our children And therfore those which do make that outward baptisme so necessary vnto saluation what other thing do they make of it but a witchcraft and Magical enchauntments attributing vnto the material corruptible elements that which apperteineth vnto the only vertue of God wherto serueth it Wherefore we may wel know the error and ignorance of the scholastical doctors which haue iudged that baptisme necessary vnto saluation For which cause they haue also permitted and establyshed that the woemen might and ought to baptise in tyme of necessitie But the auncient Patriarches an holy Prophetes were not in that superstition and were not ignoraunt of the vertue and efficacie of gods promise and allyaunce nor of the reasons by mée alledged or otherwise the Israelites should haue greatly fayled and chiefely Moses which was the Prophet and conductor of the people of God to haue dwelled at the least the space of fourty yeres sithens the departing from Aegypt vntil the entring into the land of Chanaan without circumcising y children Yet it is to be beléeued that during that time many dyed without being circumcysed and although none had dyed did it not séeme rightly that Moses and all the other Israelites did against the ordinance of god sith that they executed it not at the day appointed Thomas Is it true that they haue abode so long
time what fault can be in the child and what consolation doth your doctrine bring vnto the poore mother being alreadie sufficiently scourged and afflicted of the hand of God to make hir beleeue that hir childe is condempned vnto perpetuall exile and banished from Paradise for euer And that hee is detayned in the Limbe in the which without ceasing hee curseth Father and mother At the least wyse the Carhards haue preached and perswaded them so Thomas Yea I haue heard them preach more ouer that is to say that it were better that a Towne a Ceuntry or a kingdome were drowned then an Infaunt shoulde dye without baptisme Theophilus If the Infant did come vnto the age of discretion and that hee despisoth the baptisme I would not excuse his infidelitie and rebellion Or if the father mother thorough their negligence dispising infidelitie haue made none accompt to baptise their child I would not also excuse them but that they should yeld them selues greatly culpable before God worthy of greeuous punishment But I will not yet neuerthelesse therefore iudge rashely of the saluation of the childe For GOD knoweth those that are his And man hath not power to danipue him whome God woulde haue saued And if it hath not pleased God to shewe that grace and fauour vnto the Father and Mother that they cannot sée their childe aliue for to offer and present him vnto him and to his Churche by the baptisme wherefore shall hée vse such furor towards that poore Infant and the Parents which are already ynough desolate and without comfort What iniury doe you vnto Iesus Christe These Infants borne dead shoulde not haue great occasion to blesse his comming nor to sing with those which haue receiued him when he entred into Hierusalem Blessed be the sonne of Dauid which commeth in the name of the lord They should haue hadde more iust occasion to cursse and detest him sith that in steede to amende their condition hée hath put them in worfe estate then the Iewes were before his comming You cannot denye that absurditie and inconuenience if you will mainteine your doctrine truely the which declareth it selfe altogether contrary to the doctrine of the gospell full of all consolation in stéede of which your doctrine bringeth but desolation and despaire Hillarius I can speake by experience For I haue knowen holy woâ—men walking in true simplicitie of heart and great feare of God which were so troubled in their conscience bicause that such inconueniences happened vnto them and that they were so perswaded that with much a doe one could sinde any meanes to comfort them and set their conscyence at rest and in quiet what soeuer things 〈◊〉 say vnto them Although that one tolde and affirmed vnto them that our Lady of Lausanne shewed grace vnto the Infant and that those which were present did witnesse vnto them of the goodly myracle that she had done in rayaÌ„ng to life the Infant for to baptise it being dead afterwardes did put him in the graue yet neuerthelesse all that coulde not assure them and they coulde not be at rest in their conscience vntill such time as thorough the preaching of the Gospell they were deliuered from those false oppinions of Caphards and deuillishe doctrines Theophilus That is that which sathan and the false prophets do desire the consciences shoulde be troubled desolate for then gaine they most They haue of meÌ„ that they desire their fishing is best in troubled water Eusebius Thou hast concluded that according to our doctrine it should followe that Iesus Christ shoulde haue impaired the estate of the Christians But wherein For those of the Iewes shal no more enter into Paradise then those here Theophilus If they went into Abrahams bosome by the which thou vnderstandest the Lymbe there was no more greater punishment for them then for the others which were circumcysed sith that all doe goe thither indifferently as I haue sufficiently shewed vnto thee Afterwards those which then were in the Lymbe hoped to be deliuered the which is denied vnto the poore children of the Christians Wherefore it should followe that Iesus Christ shoulde rather come for to showe and bring vnto them the wrath and iudgement of God then his grace and mercy Furthermore those which were in Abrahams bosome were not without hauing some taste and perticipation of the Ioyes of Paradyse as it appeareth plainely by the wordes of Abraham answering vnto the rich man after this manner Thou hast had pleasure in this worlde Wherefore thou must howe suffer and that the chaunce be tourned And contrariwise Lazarus hath suffered greate tribulations and iniseryes Wherefore nowe it is meete that hée bee at rest and ioy Thou canst not denye but that these wordes are true If they bée true thou art constrayned to confesse that in Abrahames bosome is consolation rest and ioy And howe can these thinges be out of the kingdome of GOD which is righteousuesse peace and ioye in the holye Ghost Eusebius I haue not agréed to thée that the children of the Iewes being deade without Circumsition should go vnto the Lymbe of the fathers but into another Theophilus It behoueth then to forge Lymbes But where is the witnesse of the Scripture for to prooue the same And do the children of the Christians go straight way vnto the Lymbe of the auncient fathers Eusebius No. Hillarius Then there is presently a chamber to heyre Theophilus Doest thou not knowe into what dreams and foolishnesse that doctrine doth leade you Truely I am ashamed Wherefore I pray thée that thou do holde thy selfe content with that that I haue aunswered vnto thée and that nowe thou do come vnto the question which I haue propounded vnto thee to wit what difference thou puttest betwéene the bosome of Abraham and Paradise Eusebius I do not meane to passe thy question without aunswering vnto it But thou lettest slippe the principall obiection which I haue made vnto thee without hauing satisfyed mee therein Wherefore I would haue the resolution before thou doest escape mée Howe may wée then vnderstande that which Iesus Christ hath said Except that a man be borne a newe of water and of the Spirite he cannot enter into the kingdome of god Doth he not by those wordes openly declare that the baptisme of the water is necessarie vnto saluation And that he which shall not be baptised with water cannot enter into she kingdome of heauen For he hath not onely sayde hee that shal be borne a newe of the Spirite but he hath also added the water for to declare that the one and the other are requisit I confessâ— that the water without the spirit suffiseth net and that the visâ—â—l◠〈◊〉 without faith cannot saue For it is first saydâ—â—â—â— thâ—◠〈◊〉 afterwards there is added and is baptised shall bee saued But I cannot vnderstand but that the baptisme of the water is in like manner necessarie vnto saluation Or I know not to what
the opinion that they had that thorough the baptisme all the sinnes that might be in man were defaced and put out For that reason they tarryed as long as they could for to depart out of this world more purer and cleane from their sinnes But which is worse some vnder that hope did take the greater holdnesse to sinne Whome Chrisostome rebuketh shewing vnto them that peraduenture God wil not giue them the grace to haue space to be baptised if they did tarrie vntill the houre of their death and if they did abuse so the baptisme as he hath séene that it hath happened vnto many who thorough that vaine hope trust haue béene deceiued In like manner also hath Basill the great made a sermon expressing that matter and rebuketh very sharpely those which do so Euen as then the greate and old ones haue delayed their baptisme it is not to be doubted but that for these same reasons they haue done the like towardes their children And therefore we must not be abashed if saint Augustine hath written and spoken after such sort of baptisme for to correct such faultes negligences and opinions and the better to incytate and stirre vp the Christians to giue their indeuours in that as well for them as for their little children For that cause it was auncyently established in the Church that they shoulde baptise twise in a yeare That is to say at Easter and at Whitsâ—â—tyde â— although that the baptisme was permitted at all tâ—â—e in case of 〈◊〉 There was yet an other reason which â—ight haue giuen 〈◊〉 vnto saint Augustine to speake so He did sée and peâ—ceâ—ue that many 〈◊〉 infected with the hereâ—â—e of the Pelagians which did not attribute much vnto the grace of God and did 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 at all originall 〈◊〉 but did greatly magâ—â—fie the vertues and strengthes of men â—or which causâ— they had not the baptisme in greaâ—e estimation And therefore woulde â—aint Augustine declare the nature of originall sinne and induce men to giue and beare more greater honour vnto the sacramentes Then the better for to manifest the same he declareth howe the young infants which haue not yet committed any aâ—tuall sinne are not yet neuerthelesse without sinne worthy of death and eternall dampnation bicause of their corrupt nature which they haue drawen as from a right inheritance and proper heritage of their fathers and mothers in their conception and natiuitie For they haue béene conceiued and borne in sinne and inâ—quitie and can be none others then such as the sinnefull beginning from which they are come For that whiche is borne of the â—â—esh is flesh And a wolfe cannot ingender but a young Woolfe a Serpent a young Serpent And euen as wée doe not leaue off or cease to hate a young Woolfe although that he hath not yet eaten any shéepe or a Serpent notwithstanding that he hath not yet cast forth his venym but do iudge him worthie of death bicause of the peruerse nature that is in them so ought we to estéeme and thinke that God hath no lesse occasion to hate and condempne vs euen from our mothers bellie bicause of our perâ—ersitie and naturall malyce engendred with vs And though he shoulde dampne vs eternally he shoulde doe vs no wrong but onely that which our nature meriteth and deserueth For although that the young infant hath not yet done any worke which wée may Iudge to be euill and wicked sith that he hath not yet the vnderstanding discretion nor the power to doe it it followeth not therefore but that the peruersitie and malyce which is naturall in man hath alreadie his roote in him as one part of his paternall inâ—eritaâ—nce the which cannot please god For although that it bringeth not yet forth hir fruites yet they doe remaine still there as in their roote which will bring them forth in his time As the venym is alreadie in a Serpent although that he bite not and the nature of a Woolfe in a young Woolfe howe innocent so euer he seemeth to bâ—â— But from whence doe the fruites of the fleshe procéede and the sinnes which man committeth when hée is of age but of that vicious roote of that originall sinne and corrupt nature Then Saint Augustine did no wronge to aggrauate that natural corruption and to say that the infant from his mothers belly is culpable of e 〈◊〉 fire not onely the men that are of age if they do dye without baptisme if he doe vnderstande by the baptisme the grace and mercie of GOD which by the same is represented and communicated vnto the electe As I thinke verely that he did chiefely vnderstande it For if he woulde take it by the rigour for the exteriour baptisme and the materiall ceremony I cannot nor may not agrée with him sith that hée â—lledgeth not sufficient witnesses of the holy scriptures for so proue that proposition so rigorous and so repugnant vnto the bâ—untie and grace of GOD as wee haue alreadie sufficiently declared But I estéeme and iudge rather that hée vnderstandeth by the baptisme made in the name of the Father the Sonnâ—and of the holye Ghost the vertue and efficacie and the thing figured by the exteriour Baptisme whiche is the true signe and witnesse of him whiche is spirituall and interiour as the signe and exteriour ceremonye by the which yet neuerthelesse hée signifieth and comprehendeth all the vertue of the baptisme of Iesus Christ after the manner as the holy scripture hath accustomed to vse For in the same the signe the figure are oftentimes taken for the thing signed and figured comprehending the whole for parte bicause that the scripture addresseth it vnto the faithfull which do not receiue the sacraments in vaine and without a spirituall meaning Therefore the Apostle saith All ye that are baptised haue put on Christ And yet neuerthelesse Symon the Magitian was baptised outwardly by Philip and yet I do not beléeue that euer he did put on Christ sith that he did not truely beléeue Eusebius Notwithstanding it is written in the Actes that he belieued Theophilus It is certeine But yet neuertheles he hath well declared afâ—ewardes that the same which hée hath done was but dissembling and that he had neuer true faith But saint Luke who hath written the history speaketh after the common manner of speaking as wée doe say that a man hath receiued the gospell or that a Iewe hath made himselfe or is become a christian and hath beléeued in Iesus which yet neuertheles may doe it by hypocrisse and not in déede Yet neuerthelesse we doe speake euen as the thinges are shewed vnto vs leauing the iudgment of y heart vnto god So hath saint Augustine expounded that which saint Luke hath spoken that Symon Magus hath beléeued Hillarius I thinke Eusebius that thou oughtest to content thyselfe with the aunswere which Theophilus made vnto thée For it is so cleare and easie and so much confirmable vnto the
sainct Augustâ—â—â—ath 〈◊〉 â—◠〈◊〉 〈◊〉 â—â—â—ly of the woeman but of the priâ—â—te and pâ—â—ticulâ—r man to witte whether hée do◠〈◊〉 i◠〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 i◠〈◊〉 of neces 〈◊〉 To the whiâ—h â—é◠〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the rather for to 〈◊〉 it thâ—◠〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the â—easâ— wiâ—e it is a thing 〈◊〉 that â—◠〈◊〉 â—ot 〈◊〉 that it is lawfull but confeâ—â—eth 〈◊〉 that there 〈◊〉 â— certeyne fault although that â—ée made it light But he hath taken it as it happenâ—th 〈◊〉 â—â—to the good Mariners who through the â—iolâ—â—câ—s â—â— the 〈◊〉 are constrayned to 〈◊〉 from their right 〈◊〉 and to followe whether the tempestes and windes will driue and cary them There â—s no doubte that 〈◊〉 from the time of Sainâ—t Augustine that errour and custome was not any thing at all receyued Wherefore Sainct Augustine â—â—rst not altogether condempne it No more also durst hée â—o allowe it nor altogether excuse it o◠〈◊〉 Yet neuerthelesse if wée doe followe the rule of Iesus Christe that will put vs â—ut of all doubâ—e Althoughe that wée yet haue on our side the fourth Councell of Africa whiche hath forbidden the same without any exception It is most true that in the â—eâ—réâ—s â—f Graâ—ian that Canon is alledged but not accordinge to the truth as it is written in the booke of Councells For hée addeth to it the exception whiche is not in the true oryginall Hillarius Althoughe that â—here wâ—re none but the witnesses of the Priestes they doe sufficientlye declare that it is euill For when one bringeth the â—hildren to â—ée baptised they doe demaunde is there any thinge but good They demaund the same for to know whether that the Infant hath bene baptised by the woemâ—n If it hath not bene baptised thâ—â— aunswere that all is well or there is nothinge but good It followeth then that thâ—re was an euill when the childe was baptised by them Eusebius They dâ—â— not vnderstand it so as thou takest it Hillarius I beléeue thée well and I doubt not but that God will make thâ—m speake â—â— he hath made Caâ—pâ—â—es to prophecie without vnderstanding themselues Eusebius For that thou 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 thy selfe so much that we haue no witnes of the Scripture how wilt thou theâ— excuse Zipphora the wiâ—e of Moses who circumcised hir sonne Eleaser in Moses own presence how hath then Moses peâ—â—â—itteâ— the same Theophilus The example is not like but rather against thée then for thée For first thou séest that Moses did not estéeme the circumcision so necessary as you estéeme the baptisme sith that he made so small accompt to circumcise his â—onne although that he had more expresse commaundement thâ—â— we haue of baptisme Furthermore notwithstanding that that place is very obsâ—ure bicause that Moses rehearseth the history â—o short and briefly Yet neuerthelesse iâ— one doe examine it throughly one shall not finde that that example can be better applyed then to the â—ispiâ—â—ng of the circumcision and of the Saâ—â—aâ—â—eâ—â—es For that which is written that the Lord or his Angell came before him and assalted him minding to kill him 〈◊〉 ently declareth that the Lord was angâ—â— bicause that Moses notwithstandinge that he had the â—â—â—e and the occasion to circumcise his sonne hath not done such diligence as he ought to haue done Wherefore the Lord punished him But as soone as the childe was circumcised he was deliuered from that daunger and the Lord did not pursue him anye more But there is an other reason when the Infantes doe dye and that there is no negligence nor default in the parentes As touching that that Zipphora did the office to circumcise not Moses we must consider that then Moses coulde not doe that bicause that he was pressed and grieued by the hande of God who would haue killed him Wherefore for to saue his lyfe Zipphora laide to hi◠〈◊〉 〈◊〉 For none other coulde haue done it but shée Eusebius Nowe thou art compelled to confesse that which I demaund For thou wilt excuse Zipphora bycausâ— of the necessitie whiche constrained hir no more also doe wée allow the baptisme administred by woemen and others then the ministers of the Church but in case of necessitie Theophilus I haue yet other reasons against thée The first is that wée doe not reade that God hath giuen expresse commaundement vnto men onely to circumcise as he hath doâ—e of baptising The second is there was not thâ—â—â—ny forme of the Church nor policiâ— and publike ministrie amonge the Medianites and where Moses was The third is that it is lykest to â—ée true that Zipphora did that by the commaundement of Moses hir husbande who feeling himselfe strokeâ— of God admonyshed hir to do that for to saue his life For otherwise how could â—he haue vnderstanded and knowen that hir husâ—ande had bene in daunger of death for such cause if hée had not aduertysed hir of it Although that Moses writinge briefly hath not reâ—â—â—rsed all those thinges at large But he hath made them sufficiently to bée vnderstanded Nowe if Moses did commaunde hir she did it not without the worde of God Sith that Moses was a Prophet yea him by whome God addressed and gaue his ordinaunce in the Church of Israel Furthermore although that it be so yet that example is not sufficient for to builde the baptisme of woemen against the ordinance of Iesus Christ For we ought not to draw into a generall consequence the perticuler examples of Sainctes and that which by a singuler priuiledge and dispensation hath bene somtime permitted them if we haue no expresse commaundement as they haue had or the same occasions and circumstaunces Besides that that there be some examples of holy men the which the Scripture alloweth not alwayes notwithstanding that it rehearseth them or if it doe allowe them in those there it followeth not therefore that it doth the like in vs if we haue not a certeine vocation and calling of God. Thomas I greatly feare Eusebius that in disputing after this manner the Lymbe and the Purgatorye which thou vpholdest and mainteinest will be altogether destroied and ouerthrowen For as farre as I can iudge the same of the young children is altogether throwen down to the ground if thou do not helpe it The Purgatorye hath but a little more holde There remayneth now but the Limbe of the fathers of which I do very much desire to know the resolution and to vnderstande whether it bée all one with Paradise For Theophilus hath already almost proued it to bée so speaking of the estate of those which were in Abrahams bosome Eusebius I do not deny but that the auncient Fathers which were deteined in the Limbes had already a certein participation of the celestial ioyes but not so great as they haue had after the death and passion of Iesus Christ Theophilus I hope that we shal be soone agréed and that there shall be in the ende no other difference betwéene the Sainctes which are dead vnder the
he hath done it in his time Eusebius Doest thou think that there is in the other life any augmentation and increase of ioy and of glory Theophilus To the end thou maist not rebuke me in ouer rash defining of such things I will propounde vnto thée the witnesses of the scripture by whiche thou maist comprehend that which we may iudge off Mark then first the witnesse of the Apostle which saith writting of the holy prophets and seruants of God which were before the comming of Christ that all those there hauing obteyned witnesse by faith receiued not the promise God hauing prouided a certeine better thing for vs to the end that they should not be come vnto perfection without vs He saith not that they haue altogether receiued the promise For it was made first of all to them But he vnderstandeth the accomplishing and the fruite of the same of which they haue not béene altogether depriued But they haue not had it so perfectly as we haue it nowe For sith that he speaketh of fulfilling and ending he signifieth then that there is alreadie great beginning of felicitie But the perfection was not yet nor shal be vntill the consuÌ„mation and restoring of all things For the terme of consuÌ„mation and perfection are relatiues the which wée must necessarily referre vnto some beginning To which agréeth the aunswere that GOD made vnto the soules of the Martyrs which demaunded vengeaunce against the persecutors of the Church vnto whome the Lorde aunswered that they shoulde tarrye vntyll the number of their bretheren were fulfilled Eusebius make me to vnderstand that more clearely Theophilus Assone as we bâ—gin to knowe God in this worlde and to beléeue in Iesus Christ we begin also to tast the goodnesse of the celestiall life and of the worlde to come But we haue not yet perfect ioy Yet neuerthelesse sithence that we haue once tasted that celestiall goodnesse we grow from day to day from knowledge to knowledge from faith to faith from good to be better vntil we become vnto the age of a perfect man to the fulnesse of Christ to the eternall felicitie and ended blessednesse Now if alreadie in this vale of misery our soule being charged with this terrestiall body shut vp and kept in the same as in a darke prison altogether wrapped in miseries sinnes and maledictions receiueth such consolation and ioy there is no doubt but that after that it is deliuered from that prison and captiâ—â—tie and hath put of all earthly corruption it may growe into all goodnesse and perfection or else in vaine hath Saint Paul saide I desâ—re to be losed and to be with Christ which thing is to â—e best of all And yet neuerthelesse it hath not hir â—eâ—iâ—â—tie and perfect glorie vntill the resurrection of his glorious bodie And that it be againe vnited wiâ—h it and seâ— God face to face and knowe him as we haue béene knowâ—â— of him then when he shal haue vanquished all things and shal be all in all For it is not yet appeared what we shal be but our life is hid in Iesus Christ Euen as then those which doe nowe depart out of this life haue not yet such ioy as they shall haue after that Iesus Christ shall appeare in glorie â—or to iudge all flesh when we shall all arise so by the like reason we may estéeme and thinke that the auncient fathers which haue béene before the commâ—ng of Iesus Christ haue not had altogether such ioy and felicitie before â—is resurrection as afterwarde For if the Angels themselues which alwayes doe behold the face of the heauenly father haue receiued increase of the science and knowledge of God and of their felicitie by the comming of Iesus Christ and there ought to receiue it more ample in the resurrection of the iust and righteous we must not doubt but that asmuch shall happen vnto the blessed spirites and iust soules Wherefore wée may easely knowe by the same howe great and admirable the misterie and secret of the redemption of mankinde is and what is the excellencie of the Church of Iesus Christ sith that the angels themselues doâ— receiuâ— so great profite and increase in all goodnesse Thomas By what place of the holy scripture caâ—st thou proue that which thou speakest Theophilus They are sufficiently expressed in the Epistles of the Apostles for saint Peter speaking of that matter saith that of the Prophets auncyent fathers that it hath béene reuealed vnto them y not to them selues but vnto vs they should administer the things the which saith he nowe are declared vnto you by them which haue declared the gospell by the holy ghost sent from 〈◊〉 the which the Angels doe desire to beholde The Angelâ— had not that desire but that they did féele a greate goodnesse But saint Paul sheweth vnto vs the same yet more expressely and declareth vnto vs sufficiently that sith that the Angels are the ministers of God appointed to the health of men which cannot be in perfect and full blessednesse as we which are their compagnions burgesses and citizens of the kingdome of heauen with them neither are we also come therevnto For euen as they do reioyce ouer the sinner that repenteth and which retâ—urneth vnto God also without all doubt sith that aboâ—e all things they do procure our helth and saluation it cannot be but that they are verie angrye and sorye when they sée vs yet pressed with sinne and death and to striue against them in great anguish Forasmuch then as their â—â—â—yâ—itie is ioyned with ours it is certeine that theirs without ours cannot be perfect For it is written expresly that the saintes shal iudge the Angels and the worlde And the Apostle affirmeth that nowe vnto the rulers and powers in heauen might be knowne by the congregation the manifold wisedome of God according to the eternall purpose which he purposed in Christe Iesu our Lorde If the Angels then doe learne yet and profite in the knowledge of the goodnesse of God the which they doe daily sée to be manifested by newe miracles towardes the Church so in like manner it must be that they doe acknoweledge vs for their iudges and princes in Christ and bicause of Christe it is easie to knowe that there is yet a certeine thing in them whiche doth séeke his perfection of Iesus Christe Therefore it is written that thorowe him all thinges are repaired and restored both in heauen and in earth Wherein the scripture teacheth vs that his comming was not onely healthful vnto men but also vnto all creatures yea vnto the Angels themselues which had no sinne For euen as the fâ—ll of man hath drawen after him the ruine of all other creatures and hath made them subiect vnto malediction with him so euery creature sigheth and groneth with him also looâ—â—â—g for their redemption and deliuerance the which is ioyned together with his Nowe if the Angells cannot be
perfectly consâ—mated in all blessednesse without vs which are their compaignioâ—s how shal our other bretheren do which are ioyned néerer vnto vs which do yet tâ—â—â—e for the redemption of their bodyes and the consummation of their ioy the which they cannot haue without vs and a great deale lesse then the Angels Thomas Weâ— may also conclude by the contrarie that the torâ—ents of the diuells and reprobate doe increase and that they shal be greater and more grieuous after the latter iudgement then they are at this present Theophilus Saint Péeter doth giue vs most euident witnesse writing of the wicked and reprobate after this manner howe will God spare them if he haue not spared the Angels that haue sinned but hath cast them down into hell deliuered them into chaynes of darkenesse to be kept vnto iudgement And by and by after he saith moreouer the Lorde knoweth howe to deliuer the godly out of temptation and howe to reserue the vniust vnto the day of iudgement We cannot deny but that the diuels and reprobate are alreadie in torment and but that they are alreadie drowned in the bottome of hell sith that they are reiected of God that they are in his wrath â— indignation But yet neuerthelesse by the words of saint Peter we may easely vnderstand that they doe attend and â—ariâ— for yet a certeine more grieuous iudgement gods anger more fearefull then they haue féeled But for to make thée to vnderstand more plainely that which I thinke I will expounde it vnto thée by a similitude and comparison taken of the very words of S. Peter When a malefactor hath coÌ„mitted some certein great cryme worthy of death grieuous punishment there is no doubt but y he féeleth his condempnation in his conscience assone as he hath coÌ„mitted the euil déede He hath his conscience which is his accusor for a witnesse for a iudge and for a hangeman and it can be none otherwise His conscience â—yteth and accuseth him Afterwardes he commeth to be vanquished of hys misdéedes by his owne proper witnesse which avayleth more then a thousand witnesses And after it hath vanquished hym it condempneth him And euen as it constrayneth them to witnesse against themselues so it constrayneth them to condempne themselues insomuch that although all the Angels and all the men of the worlde woulde cleare them and pronounce them to be righteous and iust yet neuerthelesse they cannot absolue and cleare themselues nor auoide their owne iudgement Now after y senteÌ„ce giuen it must be that it be put in execution and that the malefactor be deliuered into the hands of the hangeman the which he néede not to séeke farre nor out of himselfe His conscience with the rest doth yet that office the which whippeth and tormenteth him so cruelly that he cannot haue rest day nor night If he sée any talke together he thinketh they talke of hym If he sée but a leafe of a trée to wagge he thinketh that they are seriants sent for to take and carie him to prison If he thinke to sléepe and take rest he dreameth that he is in the handes of the iudge which sendeth him to the hangeman and that they doe leade him to the gallowes And in waking and sléeping he ceaseth not to imagine and thinke of hangemen â—ortures and Gybettes Wherefore the Prophete hath not saide without a cause That the wicked are like the raging Sea that cannot rest whose water â—ometh with the myre and grauell Euen so the wicked haue no peace saith the Lorde Haue we not the example verie euident in Caine and in Iudas From whence procéeded that violence of mans conscience but from GOD Which maketh hys enimyes to féele hys iudgement and his furour in such sort that they themselues cannot beare it But are constrayned to condempne them selues and despaire whiche is a certeine witnesse that there is a iudgement and â— God vnto whome we must render accompte The which we ought all to vnderstande and knowe although wée should neuer heare speaking of God nor of his holy scriptures and although we shoulde haue none other witnes but the same heré the which God hath naturally printed into the heart of euery one the which ought well to suffice vs For as saint Iohn saith if but hearts condemne vs God is greater then our harts and knoweth all things That is as much as if he had saide if we ourselues doe condemne vs may not God well condemyne vs Sith that we haue such a feare and such a horrour doeth not our heart admonish vs sufficiently that we haue a superiour and gouernour which will not suffer such thinges Sith that there is not so great a Prince not so great a Tyrant which feeleth not that hell in his conscience Although there be not a man vppon the earth aboue him of whome he may be afraide Doest thou nowe see howe the hell of the wicked beginneth alreadie in him here in 〈◊〉 worlde The which our Lorde Iesus Christ woulde not haue vs to be ignorant off saying be that beléeueth in the sonne of God hath eternall life and shall not tast of death For he is alreadie passed from death to life but he that beléeueth not in the sonne of God he is alreadie iudged and condemâ—ned Doth he not shewe vs here with the finger howe the faithfull beginneth alreadie his paradise in this worlde and the infidell and vnfaithfull hys hell Hillarius There is nothing more certeine then that which thou speakest And although we had not the witnesses of the Scriptures wee haue the witnesse of nature printed into the hearts of all which hath constrained the Poets to inuent and finde out that fayning of the furies the which we may call she diuelles They do assigne their habitation in the helles and say that they do torment the wicked and reprobate people most horribly aswell in this worlde as in the other By the which they vnderstand none other thing but the torments and assaltes of the euill conscience and that worme which dyeth not but gnaweth and deuoureth incessauntly Theophilus I doubt not But let vs sée how y â— â—el encreaseth day by day If the malefactor be alredy so much tormented before that the Iudge hath layde his handes vpon him before that he be put in prison before that he hath ben on the racke vanquished iudged and condemâ—ned Let vs thinke what torment he ought to haue beeing in prison after that his processe is made and concluded looking tarying for his sentence cruel death euery houre In what anguish thinkest thou that he is in Doest thou thinke that the horror that he hath of the looking for of the torments which are prepared for him are vnto him a great deale lesse paine then the torments and the death that hée looketh for Eusebius Truely I beléeue that there is no great difference that he dyeth so many times as he liueth houres
Purgatorye Wherefore if wée must praye for the dead it is most lykest that the prayer should haue bene ordeyned to that ende that they shoulde be deliuered from the Lymbes if there had bene any then from the paines of Purgatory or for the comming of Iesus Christ and the resurrection of the flesh But I doe not finde in all the holy Scripture as well of the olde as of the newe Testament that euer the Patriarches Prophetes and Apostles haue instituted or ordeyned that one shoulde make anye speciall or perticuler prayers for the dead neither for to drawe them from the Lymbes nor from Purgatorye nor for the resurrection of their bodyes I will not denye but that the holy Fathers haue greatly desired the comming of Iesus Christ and but that according to their desire they haue made earnest prayers and requestes vnto God euen as we doe praye dayly that Gods kingdome may come desiringe generally all that which apperteineth to the fulfilling of the same But it followeth not therefore that wée must especially ordeine perticuler prayers in y church for to demauÌ„d perticulerly all things apperteining vnto y kingdome depending of the same For in making such prayers wée regard not our selues nor our neighbour but onely the glory of God the which we desire to be eralted magnified without consideratioÌ„ of our persons nor of others but insomuch as our health saluation is ioyned together with y glory â—raltation of his kingdome But not in such sort y it is required or requisite to vse any other manner of praiers thoÌ„ those of which we haue the expresse worde of God and the examples of the true seruants of god And if it should haue bene otherwise it is impossible that God would haue omitted it without making expresse mentioÌ„ in his holy scriptures as I haue alredy sufficiently declared vn to thée by reasons so euident that none can gaine say them Eusebius Thou wilt then conclude for a full resolution that in the worde of God is no mention made of Purgatory nor of prayers for the deade and that we haue no néede to pray for them Theophilus I will abide firme and stedfast in that sentence vntill such time as I haue founde aucthoritie or example in the holy scripture worthy to be followed the which I am certeine that one shal not finde except peraduenture we woulde pray for the deade euen as Daniel and other good Prophets and princes of Iuda haue made confession and prayers for their sinnes and those of their fathers and predecessors not to that end that God shoulde pardon those which were already deade For they cannot put to more nor take away any thing from them sith that they were alreadie before their Iudge But they praied to that ende that God should not impute vnto them the sinnes of their fathers Eusebius Howe shoulde he impute them sith that he hath said by his Prophet The sonne shall not beare the fathers offences but the soule that sinneth shall dye Theophilus I doe agrée to thée that if the father hath béene wicked and the sonne do turne from his iniquitie not willing to followe it that the iniquitie of the father cannot hurt hym no more then his righteousnesse can profite him if the father hath béene a good man the sonne wicked But when the sonne is a folower of his fathers iniquitie sith that by hys doings he alloweth it he yeldeth himselfe culpable not onely of his owne but of hys fathers also to the which he subscriveth augmenteth it And of those the Lord speaketh when he saith that he wil visite the sinne of the fathers vpon the children vnto the thirde and fourth generation of them that hate him Therfore when the Lordo did threaten to punish hys people and that he yeldeth the causes of his yre and wrath he checketh them not onely for the sinnes of the liuing but heapeth together rehearseth also al those of their auncestors and predecessors And our Lord Iesus Christ menaced threatned the Scribes Pharises that al the innoceÌ„t bloud which was shedde from Abell shall be required at their hands Wherefore we must not finde it straunge if the Prophetes and true seruants of God in their confessions prayers haue prayed for the sinnes of their fathers and predecessors that they should not be called to accompt for to kindle and prouoke the wrath of God any more vppon them the which thing in like manner hath Iudas Machabeus done as the historye witnesseth in the which it is written y they found vnder the cotes of those that were slaiue iewels that they had taken out of the temple from the Idolles of the Iamnites which thing is forâ—idden the Iewes by the lawe Then euery man saw that this was the cause wherefore they were slaine And so euery man gaue thanks vnto the Lorde for hys righteous iudgement which had opened the thing that was hyd They fel downe also vnto their prayers and besought God that the fault which was made might be put out of remembrance For we cannot denye but that sometime for the sinne of one man alone God punisheth all the people As it appeareth in Acham Which defiled his hands at the distruction of Iericho But how oftentimes hath God punished the cruelty of the fathers and predecessors vpon their successors and their children as doe witnesse as well the historyes as the Prophecies of y Amelechites Moabites Amonites Madianites Idumeans Babylonians and of the Israelytes themselues Eusebyus That which thou saiest should haue some shew if that place did not make expresse mention of prayer to the end that those that were deade shoulde be deliuered from their sinnes as though they themselues had béene yet bound and kept in them Theophilus Although that the dead in asmuch as they haue alreadie ended their course haue no more place of repentance nor of remedy of whom we haue certeine witnes in the word of God yet neuertheles bicause of the coniosiction felowship which they haue had with their families or with their people there is no doubt but that their sinnes which do redound vpon others in part bicause of them and for which it must be that others do suffer and that their sinnes be vnto them aggrauated cannot rightly be called theirs For notwithstaÌ„ding y for their part they haue receiued already punishment neuertheles they kindred and familyes as it happened vnto Achab and to all his house And we must not thinke that punishment little sith that oftentymes the fathers and parents do feare more the dishonour and domage vnto their children and lynage then their owne as we do sée sometime by experience in those which are brought to the gallowes who although they cause theÌ„ to dye without shewing mercie yet they thinke it a greate grace and fauour if one graunt them that they wil not let their bodyes to hange on the Gibet for feare of dishonour
dead and almost all the masse of Requiem and other like prayers which seemed not to haue â—en made to any other end then to pray for y saints which are in rest This maâ—ster Dector who would find out for vs a newe manner to pray for the dead vnder â—olour of the resurrection of the coÌ„ming of Iesus Christ it came well for him for to mainteâ—â—e vphold his cause against the other Cordeliers which mocked him Thomas Of what Couent was that Frier Christofer Hillarius Of the Couent of Riue at Geneua Thomas Wherfore did he sing the Masse of Requiem for the saintes Hillarius Thou oughtest to vnderstand that he was a man so expert in Theology and so wel exercised in bookes that he knewe not very well how to reade in his owne Missell and Brauerie Wherefore he could sing but the Masse of Requiem the which with great laboure he had learned by rote of heart and it serued him as a plaister for all sores and diseases Theophilus He did better then all the others For as there is but one baptisme of Iesus Christ and not the baptisme of saint Peter of S. Paul nor of any other whatsoeuer it be so there is but one supper of Iesus Christ There is not of saint Fraunces saint Tybaud saint Roch and of other like innumerable Nowe if the Masse be in stéede of the supper there ought to bée but one and we ought not to say the Masse of saint Paul saint Iames and of other saints no more then of the supper and of the Baptisme Thomas And howe dyd he make his masse of Requiem agrée with the saints Hillarius In stéede where others doe name those in whose name they do sing the Masse in their Mementos and Oremus he dyd but chaunge the names and name those of the saints vnder the tytle of which he ought to sing Masse euen as he should haue done for one that is dead Thomas I doe vnderstand his practise nowe He was not altogether without wit. And as much y Masse of Requiem serued him all alone as all the other did to his compagnions Hillarius All one Thomas But who is that doctor of whoÌ„ thou speakest off Hillarius It is Monsiour the doubtful which is come out of the Charboâ—iere or Cole-house of Parys I would haue said from Sorbonne Thomas What is his name Hillarius I would name hym but y I feare I shal do him pleasure Thomas Pleasure nay rather displeasure Hillarius I doe not tel scorne to speake For thou oughtest to vnderstand that the man of whom I haue told thée is so much ambitious couetous of name fame that it is al one to him so that men speake of him And I beléeue that if hée coulde obteine that by any such prooues as that of Herostratus who burned the 〈◊〉 of Diana the Ephesian for to make himselfe to 〈◊〉 spoken off he woulde doe no lesse And I woulde to God that he did no worse then he For Herostratus burned a temple full of Idols which caused al Asia to commit Idolatrie But this fellowe here as the Gyants dyd would make war against the heauen fight against God burne his temple and resist the holy Ghost and the truth that he hath knowen Theophilus He hath very well declared it in all places where he hath beene But god hath alwayes confounded him with all his enterprises God haue mercy on him except he be of those which sinne vnto death for whom saint Iohn hath writteÌ„ that we must not pray for I can giue him no fitter a name then that of Ismael whose hand is against al men and al mens hands against him Hillarius It is impossible to finde out a better comparison For he could neuer agrée with any man among those with whom he hath liued dwelled whether thy were Gospellers or papistes but hath troubled them all and they haue béene constrayned to chase and driue him away from them as a plague and troubler of the Church Theophilus Therefore the true church of Iesus Christ hath béene constrayned to driue him out of hir house eueÌ„ as Sara did driue away Ismael with his mother Agar bicause that he mocked hir sonne Isaac in such manner as this fellowe here alwayes mocked the true children of god And therefore the Church could not acknoledge him for hir lawfull sonne but sent him out after his mother Agar For he is more fitter for the Sinagog then for the Church Hillarius What thinkest thou who hath induced and persuaded him to propounde so many curious vaine and vnprofitable questions for to trouble that poore church of Lausanne of which he thought to haue beene made bishop and was alreadie by his imagination Bicause that hée was already olde and that he had a gray heard I am abashed how that he could not thincke well y those subtile Sorbonists did not agrée with that poore Church the which was yet tender and newly planted and but a grasse Theophilus I doe leaue the iudgement of the heart vnto God who knoweth it But as farre as I can iudge by his workes and by his beginning procéeding and ending I cannot perceiue and vnderstand but that hée dyd it for two causes chiefly Firste to please the Papistes euen as the Apostles of the circumcision went about and endeuoured themselues to please the Iewes and to holde with them for to auoide the crosse and persecution and to haue their fauour and for to make the true Apostles of Iesus Christ more odious vnto all the world The other is for to shew himselfe and for to get the brute and report that he was a wise man more expert and of more knowledge then all other preachers and that there was none that searched out and vnderstood the holy Scripture so profoundly as hée For he was angry that he dyd sée others which had put their life in daunger for the glory of God and the edifiyng of the Church to be of some estimation towards the good And therefore he would inuent a certein new fashion proper vnto himselfe alone to the end that he should not séeme that he had brought no new thing but that he had learned some thing of others Therefore he was ashamed to follow their way and went about but to renue all things for to let men to vnderstande that all that which others had made was nothing worth but that he was the great reformer of Churches and yet neuerthelesse be toke no care to reforme the wicked manners Hillarius I haue vnderstanded that he called the good ministers skirmishers who for to aduance the gospel haue broken the first Iâ—e or giueÌ„ the first onset and which haue put their heades there where he dareth not to put his litle finger Theophilus Also he himselfe hath sayd in dispising others that he was not of those small skirmishers But it was answered him to the contray that he auailed then nothing in warre
that he was not worthy to be taken for a good souldier For a good champion must know to doo all thinges and that he must bée found amongest the blowes and in the skirmishes and alaromes not onely at the retraict and to receiue wages He dispised the simplicitie of the holy Scripture and calleth the Theology inferiour and base and would forge and inuent for vs a metaphisicall Theology Hillarius Also peraduenture he would by the same as wel extract the fifth essence of the holy Scriptures as the Alcumists do of mettals At the least I doubt not but that it will happen of his metaphisicall Theology as of the Alcumy which hath a faire shew to be of great value but it consumeth away into smoke He speaketh neuertheles against the Purgatory of Priestes Wherefore I am abashed of that which I haue heard spoken that at this present he endeuoureth himselfe to set it vpp againe in that poore towne of Metz y which he is gone to trouble when he vnderstood that Iesus Christ would raigne there But I greatly doubt that the kitchin constraineth him to the same For otherwise the harâ—th woulde be colde But hée may as well doe that as to be angry pleased againe and so many times to chaunge and rechaunge his coate Theophilus We may well make him such a monster as Eusebius Cesariensis did make of the Philosopher Archesilaus in his bookes of the preparation of the Gospell and to compare it to him of whom he writeth in these words They sayd of him that as touchinge his fore partes hée was Plato and as to the hinder partes Pyrro the middle Diodorus For he hath troubled and marred the eloquence of Plato thorow the subtilties and sophistries of the Philosopher Diodorus and by the subtile disputations of Pyrrho and now saying this by and by that he was easily rolled and lead now héere and now there as a man not knowing any thing and hauinge no rest And yet neuerthelesse he séemeth thorow the shadow of eloquence that he knoweth much he was neuer in that minde y he would say twice one thing and that hee woulde abide firme and steedfast in one opinion For hée estéemed not a man to be ingenious and wittie which preserued continued in one matter and doctrine And therefore he was called a cauiller sophister and troubler which knew nothing and would not y others should perceiue any thing He troubled euery one thorow his sophistries was as the serpent called Hydra which hath seauen heads But he cutteth them off with his owne swoord speaking agaynst gainsaying his owne Doctrine denying that whiche hee hath affirmed and destroyinge that whiche hee before hath buylded Hillarius It is impossible to painte him out better For he is as a Gerion with thrée bodies He is a Papist an Euangelist and a Lutherian He is a Sophister and a Sorbonist and yet he would be accompted for a faithfull and a Christian and holdeth himselfe neither to the one nor yet to the other Hydra had neuer so many heads as hée hath of opinions contrary the one to the other and hée néeded none other Hercules for to cut them off then himselfe For the truth which GOD hath compelled him to speake as vnto the wicked spiriâ—es is a Hercules sufficient inough for to vanquish the false doctrine that he now mainteineth Theophilus By the same thou maist know the studye of Sathan and how many wayes he transfigureth himselfe into an Angell of light and what is the nature of the false Prophets God by all his Prophets Apostles hath commended to vs the faith in him and the loue towardes the liuing without making any mention y we shuld haue care of the dead The Diuell to the contrarye by his false Prophetes and Apostles endeuoureth himselfe with all his power to drawe vs from the fayth vnto vayne Ceremonies and from the care that wée ought to haue of the liuinge and of the poore members of IESUS CHRIST which with vs doe suffer want and indigence for to make vs staye after the deade They bring them meat and drinke and suffer the poore Christian bretheren which are round about them to dye for hunger This miserable Doctor perceiuing that he could not ther where he was maintein the Purgatory of y Priests and their broiling of soules be would set vp a new Purgatory for the body But when he perceiued that he could not bring it about he is retourned to cary a coale to the same of the Priests for to heate it againe Wherein he manifestly declareth what faith and conscience he hath how much one ought to trust to his doctrine Hillarius Mée thinketh that he should haue no lesse appearance to build a Purgatory for the body then the Priestes to haue builded one for the soules For if there be any reason wherefore the soules ought to suffer for their sinnes after that man is dead me thinketh that the body ought not to bée quit and frée but that he hath more merited it bicause that he was the occasion thorow his flesh and the instrument for to make the soulé to sinne Wherefore if you thincke Eusebius that God should be vniust as thou hast alledged if he doe not punish the soules of the sinners in Purgatory he should be no lesse if he doe not punish the bodyes in lyke manner which haue ben alwayes companions instruments to the soules in all the sinnes that they haue committed And therefore God wil not onely punish the soules of the reprobate in hel fire but the bodies also euen as be will glorifie the elect in body and soule in the resurrection of the Iustes Theophilus Also this good Doctor would giue vs to vnderstand sithence y he hath entred into that dreaming that all the prayers which the Church made in the name of the dead were for the bodyes and for their resurrection and not for the soules and condempneth the Priestes and their Purgatory and be made no doubt to saye that we must pray for the Saintes for Saint Peter S. Paul and the others in such sence as he vnderstandeth euen as it hath bene touched Thomas I doe vnderstand well of whom you speake I remember that at the disputation which was holden at Lausanne he spake cléerely not onely against the Purgatory of Priestes but also against the transubstanciacion and corporall presence of Iesus Christ in the hoast Theophilus It is true but in the meane time thou takest no héede of the subtiltie of Sathan and by what means he would be serued of that Sorbonist doctors Bicause y Sathan did sée those errors to be already too much vncouered and opened that hée had no more hope to vphold them chiefely in those Churches héere aboutes hée hath chosen this instrument for to set foorth that opinion the which could not serue to any edification but for to trouble the Church chiefly in this time
now that the opinions of men are so diuerse For how goodly a reason soeuer he can alledge notwithstanding that he condempneth openly the Purgatory of the Priestes and their suffrages for the dead yet neuerthelesse sith that hée putteth foorth that proposition we must praye for the dead It were impossible but that in euery pointe it should he euill spoken off and offensiue For the Idolaters and superstitions which were yet in their olde errour touching that matter doe drawe that proposition to their aduauntage to the confirmation of their Purgatory and care not for all his other reasons and sophistries the which the most part cannot vnderstand others wil not It is mough for them that they can say Monsieur the Doctor hath preached that we must pray for the dead They doe arme themselues with that proposition against the truth as with a buckler and doe condemne more boldly the holesome doctrine The other poore simple people which haue already some knowledwe of the abuses were not also without being troubled fearing to haue ben euill taught For all could not easily comprehend those sophisticall subtilties but doe abide in perplexitie Notwithstanding that that dreame which hée did put foorth was not newe It hath alreadye at an other time bene put foorth by others the which yet neuerthelesse they haue not followed Those which were best instructed and most firme in the doctrine of the Gospell although that they had their spirites sharpe inough for to comprehend that which they sayd yet they were not out of daunger For sith that this proposition abideth and continneth we must pray for the dead And this héere the Church hath alwayes duely pâ—ayde for them that they should be deliuered from death it was much to be feared that by succession of time but that they should fall againe to the first errour and that the Diuell which was driuen away would retourne againe with seauen other wicked spirites worse then the first For after that the vnderstanding of man hath bene corrupted thorowe some false opinion he is easy to fall agayne and to withdrawe from his purpose all that whiche approcheth any thinge at all Hillarius I doubt not but that the same was the marke to which Sathan pretented the which he hath yet better declared when be induced and perswaded that poore man to returne againe as the dogge to eate that which he had vomited and to bay and â—arke agaynst the ministers of the truth enforcing and endeuouring himselfe to reedifâ—e the errours and heresies which he had before condempned and destroyed Theophilus It is a great deale better that he declared himselfe what he was then to dwell in the Church of Iesus Christ for to trouble it and to ende that that he hath taken in hande For in stéede whereas before they did but sing Masse for the dead whome they presumed to bée deteined and kepte in Purgatorye they must also sing Masse and offer for the Saintes which are in Paradise according to his Theologye For it shoulde haue bene as easie to giue coulour vnto such Masses as the scholasticall Doctors doe giue vnto those which they doe singe in the name of younge children which are dead in their innocencie immediately after their baptisme Thomas What néede haue they For I beléeue that they will not denye but that they accompte them for saued Theophilus They confesse that they are in Paradise and that they haue no néede to doe it for their saluation But they affirme that it is good yet neuerthelsse to singe Masse for them for to signifie witnesse y they are of the Church members of his misticall body And so by that meanes the Priestes cannot fayle to get money of euery side both of the olde and younge or vnder the title of Purgatory or of the communion of the Church or of the resurrection of the body or of the consummation of the eternall selicitie In so dooing they must yet at the ende come to pray for Iesus Christ and to singe masses for him as for his members vntill such time as his kingdome hée fully consummated and ended and that he hath put all his enimies vnder his footstoole Thomas Now I haue heard al your matters and wel considered of them I knowe that we haue bene meruailously abused Wherefore from hencefoorth I remit and forgiue the Priestes I will staye my selfe but onelye to the pure word of god As touchinge my voyage I am come backe agayne I haue séene that which I desired to knowe I thincke that Eusebius is as much pressed and ouercome as I and that hee hath no more greater harneys nor weapons for to defend his Purgatorye nor his Lymbes Eusebius It is most certeine that I haue my spirit much troubled with so many matters and not without cause But neuerthelesse I haue not yet all disployed and shewed foorth my argumentes reasons You haue nowe robbed me of the place whiche I haue propounded vnto you of the booke of the Machabees vnder the tytle that it was Apocripha But those that I will propound vnto you now shalbée taken out of bookes so Autentickes and Canonicall that you can by no meanes reiect them And if you can shewe by euydent reasons that I dooe not alledge them to the purpose and that they do serue mée nothing at all for to proue my intention I will confesse my selfe vanquished and wyll giue you my hand for to be of your side Hillarius What pretendest thou to mainteine by them either the Lymbe of the young children and the baptisme of women or the Lymbe of the auncient fathers or the Purgatory For Theophilus hath ouerthrowne this day all that Eusebius Thou shalt vnderstande it when thou shalt heare it But at this time we haue sufficiently inough discussed of the matters at one time and there râ—maineth yet inough for a good while Yet neuerthelesse I doe hope that we shall sée the ende Thomas I desire the same very much and that wée may agrée as soone as shal be possible that we may all abide and continue of one good resolution Theophilus God giue vs his grace as I hope hée will. THE SVMME OF THE SIXT and last Dialogue IN this latter dialogue Eusebius putteth foorth the places of the holy scripture the which they alleadge commonly for the defence and confirmation of purgatory to the which Theophilus answereth and expoundeth them after the true sence of the scripture and confuteth the false interpretacions of the Sophisters and declareth many good pointes and places of the holy scripture It shal be also intreated of the power of the keyes and howe the Pope and his would stretch them euen to the other worlde It shal be in like manner spoken of the Popes power and deite of â—ubile and of the vertue of the bulle pardons and indulgences Afterwards shal be touched the opinion of them which thinke that there shal be preaching in the other worlde And a manifestation of Iesus Christ to saluation for
The which many Theologians doe expounde it of the fire of purgatory by the which the soules must first passe for to be purged before that they can enter into the celestiall rest To which agréeth very well that which saint Paul writeth to the Corinthians saying For other foundation can no man â—ay then that which is layde which is Iesus Christ And if any man bylde vpon this foundacion gold siluer precious stones tymber hay or stubble euery mans worke shall appeare For the day shall declare it and it shal be shewed in fire And the fire shall trie euery mans worke what it is If any mans worke that he hath buylt vpon byde he shall receiue a rewarde If any mannes worke burne be shall suffer losse but he shal be safe himselfe neuerthelesse yet as it were thorowe fire What fire can we here vnderstand then that of purgatory which purgeth wherefore one is sauid by the same The which we cannot vnderstand of y same of hel from which none can be deliuered nor consequently saued What aunswerest thou to that I do here breake a lyttle the order that I had thought to haue kept do leape from the Psalter vnto the Epistles of saint Paul But it is bâ—cause that the matters are like and that the one of the pointes may the better be discussed and opened with the other For we cannot vnderstand that fire thorowe which one goeth and passeth but of the same of which saint Paule speaketh by the which one is saued For none can passe from the same of hell but it kéepeth and holdeth fast all that that commeth to it Declare and expound vnto me these two places and afterwards I will go straite way to the newe Testament and will kéepe order as I haue saide Theophilus As touching the place of the Psalmes it is moste cleare that in that Psalme the Prophete speaketh of the tyrannye and oppression and of the greate afflictions and aduersities which the people of god haue suffered from which God hath deliuered them And the better to comprehend all in a summe the great euills and daungers in which that people hath beene drowned and plunged he speaketh it in the person of him wée are come vnto the fire and water and thou hast ledde vs by them He vseth commonly the comparison of the fire and water bicause that there is nothing which sooner will kill dispatch a man then the fire and water when they haue once power ouer him And therefore they are many times taken in the holy scriptures for the temptations persecutions passions daungers deathes and iudgement of God by the which all is examined proued and tryed as by the fire and water and there is none that can escape if the Lorde do not delyuer and drawe him from it as it is here spoken afterwardes As touching the place of Saint Paul he pretended an other thing then to the fire of Purgatory as it is easie to know by his owne wordes Wherefore I doe make thée thine owne iudge of the cause I demaunde of thee first whether thou art of an opinion that it behoueth that all the holy Prophets Apostles and Martyrs do passe by or thorowe that fire of Purgatory Eusebius Noe. Hillarius Those which alledge that place for to proue the Purgatorie dare not to confesse that For they magnifie and extoll so much the merittes of Saints that they haue made a treasure in their Church of those which they haue of superaboundance the which they do vaunt themselues to distribute vnto others Theophilus Neuertheles the Apostle speaketh in that place of the principallest members of the church to wit of the Prophets Apostles Euangelists Doctors Preachers and consequently of all those which do edifie by their doctrine whom he calleth masons and buylders He saith that euery ones worke shall passe by the fire and that the workeman also shal be examined by the same Wherfore either you shall be constrayned to confesse that that fire cannot be vnderstanded of the same of Purgatorye or that there is neither Saint nor Saintes but is compelled to passe by the same for to proue trye his worke sith that he excepteth none But saith plainly that euery mans shal be tryed by the fire The which thing saint Augustine was not ignorant off but vseth the same reason against those which would mainteine by those words of the Apostle that those which beléeue in Iesus Christ shal be all saued howe wicked a lyfe so euer they haue lyued and buylded vppon the foundation which is Iesus Christ prouided that they had not altogether abandoned and forsaken the foundation He taketh not that fire for that of Purgatory But for the tribulations aduersities and persecutions of this worlde Although that some wil say that the like is done yet in the other world he saith that he will not repunge their opinion the which as he saith may be true But yet neuerthelesse he dareth not to affirme it but expoundeth that fire of the tribulations of this worlde here Theophilacte who almost in all his commentaries hath followed Chrisostome notwithstanding that he is not of the most auncientes and that hée hath written sithence that the church hath beene verye much marred and spoyled and that already that fire of Purgatorye was veâ—ye muche kindeled yet neuerthelesse hée made here no mention at all not of one onely sillable But taketh that fire for the same of Hell saying that the sinner shal be saued that is to say that he shal be reserued whole and entire for to burne in the fire and to be punished perpetually But for to come to the true and more cleare vnderstanding of those wordes Saint Paul meaneth here briesely that all buylding all doctrine and workes buylded and inuented without the word of God shall turne into smoke and vanish away altogether without being able to abide and continue firme notwithstanding that all that shal be builded vppon the true foundation which is Christ who cannot beare vppe any buylding if it be not pure gold siluer pearles and precious stones taken from his worde which is more pure then the gold and siluer fined and tryed seuen times And therefore the Apostle vseth here a metaphore translation and comparison For euen as he compareth the pure doctrine of y gospel to the gold siluer precious stones which cannot be consumed by the fire but are by the same tryed and doe appeare more faire and cleane So he compareth the doctrines dreamed and inuenâ—ed by the braine of man vnto wood hay chaffe and stubble and by good right For euen as those thinges cannot abide the fire but are consumed and perished assone as they féele it so in lyke manner shall mens doctrines perish and cannot abyde and continewe firme when they shall come to the touchstone It happeneth vnto vs oftentimes that we delyte and please our selues in our owne workes and wée thinke that we haue made a
faire and a goodly péece of worke But wée must bring it to the touchstone the which shall not be after our owne iudgement but according to the same of GOD who is the iudge of vs and of our workes Therefore saith he that the day shall declare it and that the fire shall trye what euerye mannes worke shall bée He calleth the day of the Lord all tymes in which hée manifesâ—eth his presence vnto men by any manner of wayes the which he doth chiefely by the manifestation of his truth and reuelation of his Gospell By the fire although that in the Scripture it be many times taken for the temptacions and tribulations yet neuertheles it agréeth best héere to the sence meaning of the Apostle to take the fire for the towchstone which procéedeth of the holy Ghost which is the true fire which consumeth all doctrine inuented by men the which cannot abyde the spirituall towchstone but vanisheth away assoone as one proueth the spirites whether they be of God or not Asmuch happeneth of all the workes procéeding of such doctrine the which cannot beare the iudgement of god But to the contrary it happeneth to the truth as to the faith the which euen as the golde becommeth more fairer and sheweth it selfe more pure when it is tryed and examined in that furnayce and approcheth néerer of that spirituall iudgement And therefore when the word of the Lorde is manifest by the vertue of the holy Ghost then all things are reuealed We shall know what worke we haue made whether it hath any â—ault in it or not and whether we haue lost our time or whether we be worthy of a reward If we haue not buylded a matter agréeing to the foundation when the truth the iudgement of the spirit of god presseth our conscience or that the temptations also and the afflictions doe compasse vs rounde about wée are compelled to condempne our worke and we shall proue that that which we estéeme to be of some waight and importaunce is nothing at all and that in which we put our hope and trust cannot serue vs neither confirme nor assure our consciences Eusebius But how are we saued by the fire if our workes are lost and by the same consumed Theophilus The Apostle declareth it sufficiently himself if we do marke of what people he speaketh He speaketh not of Hereticks Apostates seducers and false Prophets which teach false doctrine contrary to the faith and which are seperated from Iesus Christ and from his body which is the Church by their infidelytie and peruersitie But he speaketh of the Masons and buylders of the Churche that is to say of Euangelycall Pastors and Ministers which haue not forsaken the foundation nor y head which is Iesus Christ that is to say which haue not tourned themselues from the principall poynts and articles of the Christian religion and from the saith in Iesus Christ and from things necessary to saluation But haue mingled some of their inuentions and traditions amongst the doctrine of the Gospell and haue fayled in some lyttle and small things which are not very daungerous Those then to whom such things shall happen shall receyue domage and losse For their worâ—e and that which they haue added to it of theirs shall perish and shall haue no more profite then if they were altogether dispossessed of them But they shal haue rather shame and confusion for them Yet neuerthelesse they shall be saued but as by the fire not their fault their errors and ignoraunce and their buildings buylded without the word of God may be agréeaâ—le to God But bicause of the foundation which they haue holden and kept and of the head of which they remayne members and of the faith which abideth in them shall be purged and delyuered from error and ignoraunce by that fire of the holy Ghost with which they shall bée illuminated But yet neuerthelesse héerein men will liken him vnto a foolish buylder which shall buyld vpon a good and sure foundation of stone and a rocke a house or buylding of wood â—â—ye chasse and stubble which thinke to haue made a goodly péece of worke and knowes not his fault vntill that he séeth that the fire bath taken and consumed it altogether Then he knoweth by experience that be hath lost his time and the cost and expences that he hath bestowed about it and that be is forced to beginne his buylding a new â—â— though he had neuer put his hand vnto it sauing that thâ— shame and the losse abideth with him We call our selues all Christians and doe confesse that there is but one foundation and one head Iesus Christ But although that in that behalfe we doe all agrée yet neuertheles when they come to buylde vpon that foundation all shall not be found good Masons For many will be Masters before they haue bene good schollers and apprentices and will not follow the rule and the instruction of the master Masons well expert and cunning in their mistery and occupation but thincking to make some fairer thing doe buylde after their owne fantasie They doe preach or heare the Gospell and will serue god after their affection and as they thinke good And thincking to make some faire péece of worke they marre it altogether But they doe not know it by and by vntill such time as the fire of the Gospell and of the spirite of God which is the true Iudge and the truth reuealed vnto men destroyeth all the goodly outwarde appearaunce and maketh it to be séene such as it is and not such as it appeareth outwarde As wée sée by experience in the Moonkish sectes and in many other ceremonyes superstitions Idolatryes and workes inuented of menne in which wee doe glorye and boaste our selues and thinke that we haue done mough for to merite foure Paradises and for to make God to be in our debte But when the Gospell is purely preached which beateth down all error all vayne supersticion and mans trust then we shall know our fault and be ashamed of that of which we thinke to be much estéemed Or when God sendeth vnto vs some great affliction temptation and aduersitie that his iudgement presseth vs that he examineth and prourth our woorkes as the fire proueth and tryeth the golde in the furnayce Then we shall know our hypocrisie folly vanitie and false religion the which wée doe not thinke but to be pure godlynesse and righteousnesse And as the holy Apostle esteeming as dongue all that which before wée estéemed as golde But forasmuch as wée haue not renounced and forsaken Iesus Christ nor the fayth which wée haue in him wee are not altogether lost thorow the fault that we haue committed but it happened vnto vs euen so as vnto him which hath escaped the fire But he hath yet neuertholesse lost his house and all that which was in it bicause that it was not buylded with good stuffe and could saue but his body all naked
his lyfe Wherfore he must buyld it altogether new dost thou not thinke Eusebius that this exposition agréeth better to the sence and meaning of the Apostle then that of your Doctors which would tourne and wrest it to their sence and vnderstanding against the same of the spirite of God and of Saint Paul and of the auncient Doctors which haue neuer expounded it of the fire of Purgatory but almost al of them to the sence as I haue expounded it chiefly Saint Ambrose I cannot be too much abashed of the manner of doing of those which will vphold mannes traditions When we will propone any thing in the Church of Iesus Christ for a doctrine of saluation and an article of faith we ought first of all dilygently to examine whether that which we would put foorth hath any certeine and sure foundation in the word of god If we find that it is commaunded of God and comprised in the holy scriptures we may and ought boldely to propounde and affirme it On the contrary if the Scripture doth make no mention of it it is not lawfull onely to open the mouth for to speake one word and for to propounde for certeine a thing vncerteine For cursed is the man which putteth foorth for a sure doctrine a thing of which he himselfe is not certein and of which he cannot say with the Prophet and the holy Apostle I haue beléeued it and therefore I spake it For wée ought to beware and kéepe our selues as from death to teach vnto others to beléeue and to do that which we our selues beléeue not and of which we are not certeine Now it is impossible to be assured and certeine of such things then by the word of god the which we ought to follow in all things But I sée cleane contrary in those which haue taught mens traditions in stéede of the worde of god For in stéede to take counsayle of it before they doe institute any thing they haue first propounded and perswaded the people that which coÌ„meth in their out béeing much aduised whether God hath commaunded or forbidden it It sufficeth them so that they haue some shew and appearaunce And when they perceiue that one will examine their Doctrines by the rule of the word of God then fearing to be ouercome and condempned they séeke if they can finde any thing in the Scripture for to proue their intent the which they ought to haue done before they put tho thing foorth But sithence that they haue once ordeined and published it and haue perceiued and felt the profit it grieueth them sore to recant and gainesay it And therefore they doe all their endeuours for to finde in the Scripture some coulour for to beautifie and shew foorth their worke And there is nothing so that it hath any appearaunce at all but that they drawe it violently depraue and marre it for to make it serue to their purpose Hillarius They doe as those which doe fight together which take and catch all that commeth to their hands for to defende them with bée it swoorde launce staffe forke pole fire brande stones dunge myre dust asshes and all that which they can catch or come by without regarding any thing but to defende themselues and hurt their enimie For that is all one vnto them so that they escape â— cary away the victory These Theologians doe make me to remember the olde pronerbe of the rule Lesbia the which was of Lead Wherefore the Masons of Lesbia boowed it as they would And in stéede that they ought to measure and compasse their worke by the same and the stones which they hewed and the wals which they builded and to correct and amende them if they were not right wel compassed they did cleane contrary For they did bend make crooked their rule for to make it to agrée with their worke where they ought to make the worke to agrée to the same And so it obeyed them in all thinges And whereas they should correct and amend their worke by the rule they corrected and amended the rule by their woorke Euen so are many of the lawes the which one maketh them to agrée to the manners whereas by them they ought to be corrected not the lawes by maÌ„s affections Theophilus There is not a thing the which at this daye they doe more abuse in that sort then the holy Scriptures There is not a rule more firme more surer and certeine and yet neuerthelesse the false Doctors to all purposes dooe tourne and wrest it to their sence and vnderstandinge as wée doe sée by experience in that matter of Purgatorye For sithence that once that errour was brought into the Church of God as soone as was founde in the holy Scripture one woorde that made mencion of fire they haue by and by drawen and applyed it to their purpose and haue taken it for a certeine proofe of Purgatorye without hauing regarde that the fire in the same is taken more then in a thousand places as well in the olde as newe Testament in so many diuerse significations chiefely in the psalmes Esay Ieremy and in the other Prophetical and Apostolical Scriptures of which it is not now néede to bring foorth the examples Hillarius Thou hast hearde a sufficient declaratiâ—n of that place of which thou oughtest to content thy selfe Eusebius and to kéepe thy selfe from following the example of your Doctors which doe drawe and wreast the holy Scriptures for to make them singe what it pleaseth them more cruelly then â— Tyrant would draw and handle a malefactor on the racke and on the gallowes Eusebius They doe say the lyke of you Hillarius But it is eaâ—â—ly to iudge vnto whome that office agréeth best Eusebius And howe vnderstandest thou this place of Saint Mathew where hée sayth Agrée with thine aduersary quickly whilest thou art in the waye with him least thâ— nouersary deliuer thée to the Iudge the Iudge deliuer thee to the Minister then thou be cast in prison Verely I saye vnto thée thou shalt not come out thence til thou haue payde the vttermost farthing What other prison may wée vnderstande héere but the same of Purgatory For from that same of hell there is neuer no hope to come foorth But sith that it is heere spoken of the comming foorth after they haue wholy and fully satisfyed we cannot doubt but that the same prison is Purgatorye in which the soules are deteined and kepte in paines vntill they haue fully satisfied for all their sinnes Theophilus Sith that thou expoundest the prison in such sorte I demaund of thée who is the Iudge of whom is héere made menâ—ion off Eusebius It is God. Theophilus And who is the aduerse partie Eusebius The Diuell Theophilus And who is the Sargent or Minister Eusebius The Angell Theophilus Thou wilt then say that the Angells doo conduct and lead the soules into Purgatorye to the place of paines and â—orments Eusebius Who then the Diuels
Shall it be reasonable that the faythfull should be put into the hande of the diuell for to he subiect vnto him whom they haue vanquished and ouercome and punished by him ouer whom they haue triumphed Theophilus They haue not yet wel triumphed if they be yet so deteined and kept in sinnes that for them they must be kept in a fire altogether lyke vnto that same of hell for the time that they are there Mee thinkes that that office should be more decent and meete for the Diuels then for the Angells For it is not lyke to be true that the Angells should be the hangmen of the soules of the faythfull and that they shoulde take pleasure to imprison and torment so cruellye their neighbours and bretheren whiche are Citizens of Heauen with them I haue read in the holy Scriptures that the Angells caryed the soule of Lazarus into the besome of Abraham into a place of ioye and rest and that they haue deliuered Saint Peter and the Apostles out of prison But I haue neuer read that they haue lead them into prison nor into places of tormentes nor that they did leade the rich man into hell For as much as your Doctors confesse that the Diuels do holde themselues next to the soules of those which are purged in Purgatory and doe accompany them for to reioyce themselues of their torments and to mocke them of the same They may best giâ—e that office vnto them and to exempt and omit the Angells But what appearaunce hath it with thy exposition If the Duâ—el or the sinne ought héere to be vnderstanded for our aduerse partye it followeth then that Iesus Christ commaundeth vs to agrée and to be at one with the diuel and sinne But how can we be agreed with him and with God Furthermore he would that that same agréement should be done whilest that one is in the way that is to say in this lyfe For after that man is dead he is out of the way It must then followe that he must make héere his good déedes before he doe dye for to auoide that prison of Purgatorye And the same shall be for to confirme the prouerbe of the Priestes saying that better is the candle that goeth before then that that commeth behinde Eusebius How wilt thou interprete that place Hillarius Sith that there is an allegory and that your Doctors doe play so with the word of God I will also play and iest with them First although there were none other reason but that you will heare build the Purgatory vpon an allegory it is sufficient inough for to ouerthrow and pull downe all your foundation For there is not a Theologian which confesseth not but that the Allegoryes are not sufficient for probation and confirmation of doctrine whatsoeuer it bée if it haue none other foundation more cléerer and more playne in the worde of God but is more proper and fitte for to beautifie and set out the matters to delite and mooue the auditors and hearers then for to proue and confirme it For one maye expounde them after diuerse manners accordinge to the dexteritie and wit of him which declareth them And therefore if I woulde ieste and playe with the woorde of GOD as your Doctours doe I might allegorise and declare that place expoundinge the Iudge for the Pope which is the God Pluto The aduersariâ— for the Priestes For they doe quarrell with vs alwaies for to get money from vs and we can neuer be at one and agréed with them except they haue al and that they haue eaten vs quicke and dead The Sergeaunt that is the Angell and the God Mercury For according to the Poetical Theologie he had wings and â—aryed the soules to hel and was the God of gayne of deceipts larcâ—nyes as already hath bene touched Now who leadeth the soules into Purgatory but that Sâ—rgeaunt héere of God Pluto As the cause of the gayne and hope of the money and raunsome which our Merchaunts and aduerse parties doe looke for They would gladly that we should agrée with them whilst that we are in the way in this present lyfe and that wée should distribute vnto them all our goodes without leauing any thing neyther to our children parents nor friends I am very certeine that after that we haue giuen them all and that there is no more hope to gette any more raunsome of vs that there shall bée no more prison for vs nor Sergeaunts for to leade vs thether Doest thou thinke Eusebius that my interpretation is not as good as thine I am well assured that as to the sence and meaning of the words of Iesus Christ neyther the one nor the other approcheth nigh vnto it and lesse thine then mine but according to your Theologie mine is more sufferable and more true Thomas Thou wilt then say that the one and the other are nothing worth and therfore Theophilus expound vnto vs the true sence and meaning of Iesus Christ Theophilus We must wel note and marke that which Hillarius hath sayd of Allegories How much difference there is betweene thiâ— héere of Iesus Christ and those which y expositors do make commonly For in these words of Iesus Christ there iâ— an example a comparison wrapped in with an Allegorie For Iesus Christ would not here declare any other thing but into what dangers inconuâ—niences those doe put themselues which had rather to goe to the â—igour of right then to agrée friendly with the aduerse partie before they doe come to iudgement to that ende that hée doth the better incitate and stirre forwarde men vnto amitie and brotherly reconcilyation of which he speaketh in this place After the same forte doth Saint Chrisostome expounde it without making any mention of Purgatory and he alloweth not those which do vnderstand by the aduerse partie the diuell but interpreteth that place oâ—â—lees anâ— processe Now our Lord Iesus the better to moue the hearers to brotherly reconcâ—lyation taketh example vppon the pleaders as if he shoulde saye If thy aduerse partie do bring thée into iudgement thâ—â— canst doe no better for thy honour and profite then to agrée with him before thou proue and try the rigour of right For if thou agrée friendly with the partie he may shew thée some faâ—our and forgiue thee the debâ—e and thou shalt auoyde the dishonour shame and the costâ—s which is bestowed vppon the playnts On the contrary if thou doe not agrée thou canst not so well auoyde the payment but the Iudge shall know it and thou shalâ— be condemned and compelled to pay to the vttermost all the debt without rebating one farthing euen as those which for debt are deteined and kept in prison vntill the ende of thâ— payment Beholde the example and the similytude which Iesus Christ propounded vnto vs for to bring vs to reconcilyation But he declareth not amply that which he would haue vs to vnderstand by the same but it suâ—â—seth him
to haue set vs in the way and he hath opened vnto vs the vnderstanding of that which he would teach vs which auayleth as much as if he had sayd Whilest that thou arte yet alyue and that thou hast time retourne in grace and agree with thine aduersary that is to say with thy brother and neighbour whome thou hast offended and to whome thou art bound For we are debters vnto all thosâ— to whom we haue done iniurie and wrong And therefore let vs not suffer that the bloude of our brother should demaund veâ—geaunce and delyuer vs into the hande of the Iudge Leâ—te vs not tary vntill we bée cyâ—ed and that the day bee assigned vnto vs for to aâ—peare in his iudgement But let vs conâ—â—rre our contrauersies friendly the one with the other whilest he giueth vs leasure and he himselfe as a rightfull arbitrator exhorteth vs to doe it For be we assured that if wée doe it not after that hée shall tary long time he himselfe will set vs agréed But that shall be to the great cost and expences and to the great hurte and shame of him in whom he shall finde the wrong and who shall be the cause of the controuersie and of the lette and hâ—â—deraunce which shall be in the agreement For he ought to be assured that his malyce and obstination shall be vnto him déere solde and that he shall not be abated one onely farthing for if he be condemned to satisfie to the righteousnesse of God euen to the vttermost penny there is no more hope of health and saluation For sith that the sentence is once giuen and that man is out of this mortall lyfe there is no more time to demaunde and aske agréement On the other side it is impossible that man can euer haue wherewith to satisfie God sith that thorow his infidelytie peruerâ—â—tie he hath made y satisfaction of Iesus Christ vnprofitable for himselfe It followeth then necessarily y that prison is not purgatory but hel which hath no issue nor place of raunsome Wherefore that place concludeth nothing for the Purgatory And although it be sayde that man shall not come out of that prison vntill that he hath payed the vttermost farthing wée must not therefore conclude y he shall come out at any time but rather that he shall neuer come out For that manner of speaking is very common in the Scripture and ought to be vnderstanded as y which is written of y Rauen which Noe did sende out which retourned not agayne vntil that the waters were dryed vp It followeth not therefore that hée retourned agayne at any time afterwards And Saynt Augustine expoundeth that same place eueâ— as that which is written by that same Euangelyst speaking of Ioseph saying that he knew not the Virgin Mary vntil she had brought foorth hir first begotten son We must not conclude by these words with Helâ—â—dius that he hath knowen hir afterwards For he meaneth none other thing but that he knew hir not wheÌ„ she â—â—re Iesus Christ But it followeth not therefore that he hath knowen hir afterwards Or otherwise he should be forced to conclude that Iesus Christ shall reigne no more after that he shall haue put all his enemyes vnder his feete therefore it is written that the Lord hath sayd vnto him Sitte thou on my right hand vntill I put all thine enemies thy footstoole Thou doest then sée that the exposition of Saint Augustine ouerthroweth yours And that which I say of that place must be also vnderstanded of that which is writtâ—â— afterwards of the seruaunt which would not haue compassion vpon his companion nor forgiue him the debt Ther is no difference but y Iesus Christ by that example declareth vnto vs that we must not hope to obteine pardon of God except we haue done first all our endeauour to obteine it of those whom we haue offended and to satisfie and become friends agayne with them Also in lyke manner by the other he declareth vnto vs that we ought to haue no more hope if we doe not pardon those which shall offend vs. Thomas We must not then by that reckoning tary to pay our debts and to amend the iniuryes done vnto our neighbours vntil we be dead for to make satisfaction afterwardes in Purgatory to the Priestes vnto whome the wrong was not done and the debts were not due Theophilus Euen as by that example Iesus Christe exhorteth euery one of vs to agree with our neighbour during this lyfe So he admonisheth vs to doe the lyke towardes GOD vsing the very same similytude in the Gospell after Saynct Luke Declaring vnto vs thereby that if wee doe knowe howe to prouide and gâ—uâ—rne our affayres and dooinges after the worlde and to agrée with those vnto whom we are bound for to auoyde the losse and inconueniences into which we maye fall we ought by a more stronger reason to trauayle to doe so with God whilest that the time of our visitation indureth and that he giueth vs time and space to agrée with him thorow true repentance For after y the sentence shall be giuen there shall be no more remedie Thou maist then Eusebius knowe if thou doest well vnderstand the meaning of the words of Iesus Christ that they doe destroy Purgatory in stéede to buylde it For he giueth vs no hope that we may take order and remedie for our affaires and businesse after we be dead but he would that we dispose it both with God and among our selues before that we departe from hence and that we appeare before his face Thomas Thou must then séeke some other way Eusebius For as farre as I doe perceiue and sée that place will not helpe vppe thy Purgatory Eusebius Then before we goe out from that Euangelist tell me Theophilus wherefore Iesus Christ hath sayd that the sinne agaynst the holy Ghost is not pardoned in this worlde nor in the world to come Theophilus That poynt is one of the chiefest arguments which your Doctors doe put foorth for the defence of Purgatory But what wilt thou thereby conclude Eusebius That which Saint Gregory concluded who wayed and marked well those words and sayd that by that sentence is giuen vs to vnderstand that there are some sinnes which are pardoned in this world and others which are in the other world which out to be purged before the iudgement and for the which it is to be beléeued that there is a fire If in the other worlde there bée forgiuenesse of some sinnes it cannot be in Hell. Then of force it must be in Purgatory Theophilus I doe greatly meruayle of that Logicke which maketh such Silogismes and conclusions That sin is not pardoned in this world nor in the world to come There is then some which is pardoned in the worlde to come the which cannot be but in Purgatory Wherefore there is a Purgatory There is not a Sophister so ignoraunt which ought not to knowe that
colde coniectures Nowe Iesus Christ who is the infallible veritie woulde not that we should builde the articles of our fayth vppon coniectures but vpon the expresse veritie For sith that he and his Apostles doe witnesse that they haue manâ—fested all that which was necessary to our saluation hath commended to vs so much the loue towards our bretheren it is not lyke to be true but is repugnant to the witnesse of Iesus Christ that they haue spoken vnto vs so obscurely haue giuen vnto vs onely some coniectures of this matter and of the loue that we owe vnto the dead the which the Priestes doe wrest it more then that which is due vnto those that be liuing Hillarius Bicause that Iesus Christ hath spoken so obscurely therefore they would make commentaries gloses for to declare it bicause that it bringeth vnto them more profit Thomas Thou hast opened a place Theophilus of which I would gladly be resolued that is to say of the preaching to the dead For to tell the truth I haue oftentimes dreamed mused after it bicause that I considered y according to the witnesse of the Scripture nâ—ne can haue saluation but thorowe the faith in Iesus Christ Now if we do compare those which haue knowne Iesus Christ and haue beleeued in him with those which haue not beleeued and which haue neuer hard him speake the number of those here shal be very little in respect of others Wherefore it followeth that there should be a meruaâ—lous number of the damned that the mercy of God shall not be so great as his rigor iudgement Now it is straunge to mans reason to iudge that God will dampne so many chieâ—â—y sith y he hath had as many which haue not known Iesus Christ for want that one hath not shewed him vnto them Wherefore me thinketh that the opinion of those héere is not much out of reason And I would gladly know what places they can haue of the holy Scripture for to proue it for I will accord and agrée almost sooner to that then to the opinion of Purgatory Theophilus Thou hast moued a question the whiche cannot be expressed and absolued in few wordes For we must first declare what knowledge of Iesus Christ is necessary vnto saluation and how it hath bene alwayes preached from the beginning of the world among all people nations And how it hath ben sufficiently manifested vnto the elect for their saluation to the reprobate for their condempnation Insomuch that they are all inexcusable they cannot alledge ignorance sufficient for to excuse them And it is not néedfull that they haue any more preaching after this lyfe But I had rather that we would omit and leaue off that matter vntill an other time that we maye speake more amply of it and better to satisfie the question which is made dayly touching the saluation or dampnation of our predecessors which haue liued in errour and ignoraunce Yet neuerthelesse bicause that the places which we haue accustomed to alledge for y preaching to the dead may also serue to the matter at this present time I am contented y we do entreat of them for to declare that they are not firme inough for to proue the same nor the Limbe nor Purgatory in like manner to which the others would make theÌ„ serue But for that that it may be that Eusebus doth put them foorth amongst his defenses it were better that we do delay that matter vntil such time as he bringeth it in by course in following his matter by order or if be do it not thou maist put me in remembrance Thomas Yet neuerthelesse before that Eusebius pursueth the other places that he hath determined to put foorth or open I wil propound vnto him an argument concerning the point of which we haue entreated off that is to say of the remission forgiuenes of sinnes in the other world Whervpon I demaund of thée Eusebius when Iesus Christ did giue the keyes of the kingdome of heauen vnto his Church as wel in y person of S. Peter as vnto al y church generally that he declare the power of them of the ecclesiastical ministry hath he not sayd namely That which thou shalt binde in earth shall be bound in heauen that which thou shalt loose in earth shall be loosed in heauen He sayth not That which thou shalt binde or vnbinde in heauen or in Purgatory or in hell or in the other world or in the other life and in an other earth but speaketh of this héere in the which the keys haue ben giuen in the which the Euangelical ministry hath his vigor and strength I wil not reiterate that that you said of the forgiuenes of fault paine For al that is against you But me thinketh that the Pope and those that haue receiued the power of him doe verye euill vnderstand their office willing to extend and stretch the power of their keyes pardons and indulgences vnto the other world and vnto the dead which haue their estate a part and seperated from ours and are no more vnder the iudgement of the church which is in earth which hath not to regard but on the liuing Eusebius Alexander of Ales Gabriel Biel haue very wel satisfied y obiectioÌ„ For they do answere y the dead ought to be accoÌ„pted to be yet vpoÌ„ the earth as touching y absolutioÌ„ or ligatioÌ„ binding or vnbinding vntil y they are passed entred into the kingdome of heauen For whilest y the soules are in purgatory they are vpon the earth sith that they are not yet in heaueÌ„ that they are yet of the Church militant not of y triumphaÌ„t Furthermore euen as those which are in the earth are yet in the way and not at the end full marke so are those which are deteined in Purgatory They are in passing for to goe to the countrey as touching the purgation by the which they are purged passe to the country as by y way Although y they are at the ende marke as touching the confirmation For they can no more sinne nor merit Furthermore all the while that they are ayded receiue comfort of the temporall earthly goods by prayers one may well holde accompt them for to be yet of this world sith that they doe communicate with vs of the goods which are there Hillarius He will accompt then of the dead as of the Monkes which are dead to the world in some pointes but not in other some They are dead to the world as to that that they doe serue and profit no person no more then the dead But they are not dead as to eating and drinking and to other carnall workes For in y there is not a people which doe better liue in the world nor which are more of the world Euen so shall it be of the dead They shal be dead to vs for to giue vs
wel assured of it But if that which they do write of the buls and pardons be true it is great felly for the papistes to bestowe any more any pennye nor halfe pennye neither for the funerals nor for y masses vigils nor other suffrages for y dead that they should reiect aâ— other manner of doings for to hold themselues onely to y buls pardons and to buy them for to draw the sâ—ules from Purgatory For it should not cost them so much should haue sooner dispatched riâ— away the poore soules from Purgatory For if the Pope hath in his hands the treasure of the Church hath the power as Alexander de Ales witnesseth by the power of his keys by the meanes of his indulgences to distribute bestow them as wel to the liuing as to the dead the Papistes haue no more néede of any other thing For euen as they haue by their Masses and other inuâ—ntions abolished put out the vertue of the death and passion and of the sacrifice of Iesus Christ so the Popes which haue bene the authors of the buls and indulgences haue abolished masses suffrages al meritorious works for the quicke for the dead which their predecâ—ssors haue inuented without the word of god And so by that meanes one shal haue no more néede not onely of Iesus Christ but also of their masses nor of all that that they can do but it is sufficient for al to haue paper parchment written and buls signed sealed with waxe or with lead â—ut which is more I am very much abashed how they dare to attribute so much power ouer y dead to their buls keys absolutioÌ„s sith that the Pope Gelasius and their decreâ—als Canons doe witnesse and openly confesse that the church can bindâ— and vnbinde those y be liuing not the dead and that wâ—e doe not read that the same was euer coÌ„maunded or done not of Iesus Christ himselfe which alâ—ne hath the power to do that But hath said namely vnto S. Peter Al that that thou shalt binde or vnbinde vpon the earth shal be bound in heaueÌ„ He hath said namely vpon earth For he hath neuer sayd that he that shal be dead being bound shal be vnbâ—und Beholde the very wordes of the Canons which doe well way the wordes of Iesus Christ and doe confirme y that I haue said of the authoritie of the keyes at the least in this place in which is said very plainely that by those words of the gospell is declared that none can be excommunicated or absolued aâ—ter he is dead For he saith That which thou shalt binde or vnbinde vppon earth He sayth not vnder the earth declaring that we may binde and vn binde those that be alyue for y diuersitie of their merits but we cannot giue sentence of the dead Beholde the question that Gratian propounded the resolution in his owne words Thomas How can that agrée with that which hath bene alreadie alleadged of the very Canons which doe giue power to excommunicate the Hereticks after they be dead It must néeds be that the canons be contrary the one vnto the other Theophilus That is not newe nor rare with them But the glosers doe excuse that by their interpretacions and exceptions I doe not denye but that we may condempne dempne after that one is deade the false doctrine that a man and an Hereticke shall holde during his lyfe if then it be manifested euen as it might bée done by some of them of whom they doe alleadge the examples for to aduertise the Churches to the ende that the faythfull might the better kéepe themselues But to excommunicate and curse the persons I knowe or sée not how that can bée boâ—ne with all by the holy Scripture â—ith that they are before theyr Iudge vnto whome the Angells did sende the Diuell as is written of Michael the Archangell who disputing with the Diuell about the body of Moâ—es durst not vse rayling iudgement agaynst him but said vnto him The Lord rebuke thée Yet neuerthelesse those heere dare to enterprise more agaynst men both quick and dead then the Angells durst agaynst the Diuels although that they holde them already for most certeâ—â—e to be condempâ—â—ed of God. Hillarius I am yet abashed of one thing If the Pope haue such power to giue full remission from payne and fault by his bulles moulgences aswell for the quick as for the soules of the dead I meruayle that hée hath not already long sithence made emptiâ— and cleansed Purgatory and that he hath not fetched out all the soules sith that he giueth so many pardons dayly and hourely and not only he but al â—is Cardinals bishops priests monks Eusebius There is a goodly aunswere vnto that question The first is for that there goeth euery day new into Purgatory The other is euen as Saint Thomas saint Bonauenture doe aunswere vnto that obiection that it is very requisite and needefull before that the indulgence and pardon be auayleable that it haue reasonable cause and that the dispensation of the goods and treasure of the church in which are assembled and comprised al the merits of Iesus Christ all the merits of al the Saints and Saintes which euer were should be done with moderation and discression or otherwise god will not accept it And therefor the pardons indulgences are not giuen vnto any person eyther for him or for any other be he quicke or dead but by reason of some good worke that he hath done eyther for him selfe or in the name of those for whome the pardon is giuen And therefore is lymitted the power of all those which haue the charge to giue them al do know be they Cardinals Archbishops Bishops Abbots Moonks or Priests how many they may giue euery day except the Pope which hath not his power limitted except he vse theÌ„ vnreasonably the pardoÌ„s theÌ„ that he wil giue shal not be auaileable with god Hillarius I vnderstand what thou wouldest say The pope hath heaped vp together all the merits of Iesus Christ of the patriarchs prophets Apos tles Martirs confessors virgins saints saintes of paradise of al the Christian Church in a treasure and a garner of which he alone hath the keyes and can open or shut distribute little or much when he will and as it pleaseth him For he is the great lockesimth But al the others are but as his seruaunts of whom he lymitteth the power and the office of euery one in such sort that they cannot distribute but that that he hath delyuered vnto them and of whom they haue the keyes Wherefore if it behoueth that hée haue in the treasury garner a great many of seuerall chaÌ„bers and cabins of which many must haue the keyes euery one his owne for to depart and bestow that whereoff he hath the dispensation without daring to touche the
paine of which Iesus Christ speaketh off maye bée héere in this worlde or at the daye of iudgement or in hell as the same of the Sodomites Gomorrians and their lyke Or thou shalt bée constrayned to put into Pargatorye all the wicked and reprobate which haue bene sithence the beginning of the worlde For the Lorde doth alwayes menace and threaten with more grieuous paine the successors sors then the predecessors bicause that they doe agrauate alwayes more more the iudgement of God vppon them bicause that the light is more greater reuealed vnto them and that they haue more examples of the iudgements of God that which they despise do yéeld themselues culpable not onely of their wickednessé but also of the sinnes of their fathers and predecessors allowing them by their doings Thomas The sleepers and dreamers may take from that place an argument for to proue their dreames bicause it séemeth by the words of Iesus Christ that the paine of the Sodomits and Gomorrians is differred vntill the day of iudgement But thou hast already shortned and cut off the way for them in declaring vnto vs bow the iudgement is already done and how it is yet to doe Theophilus These two places ought very well to incitate and stirre vs forward to follow veritie and to seke it For ignoraunce exempteth vs not from the iudgement of God the which commeth of our fault chiefely in these dayes that the Gospell is so cléerely reuealed vnto vs. Eusebius Therefore I desire to know and well vnderstaÌ„d all those places which might yet trouble my braines amonge which there is one in the actes of the Apostles which some men doe interprete for the Purgatory It is there written that God hath raised vp Iesus Christ and 〈◊〉 sâ—d the sorrowes of Hell. Nowe he hath not loosed the sorrowes of the hell fire or gebenne which are eternall nor of the Limbe For there is to be had ioy and consolation It followeth then that the same ought to bée vnderstanded of the sorrowes of Purgatory As much may we say of many like places which are in the Psalmes as these héere vnto which Dauid said The sorrowes of hell compassed â—e Then Lord hast brought my soule out of hell God shall deliuer my soule from the power of hell when he 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 And Iob sayth in like manner O y thou waâ—idest â—eepe mée and hide mée in the hell vntyll thy wrath â—ere stilled and to appointe me a time wherein thou mightest remember mée what other hel can we héere vnderstand then Purgatory Theophilus I am abashed of the great ignorance of such interpreters of the scripture For first in the place of the acts it is not in the Gréeke copies the sorrowes of hel and it was not so written of S. Luke For he hath sayd the sorrowes of death and not of hell although that in your common translation it is written as thou sayest But although it were so all shoulde come to one ende For the text doth plainely declare that Saint Peter speaketh in that Sermon of the resurrection of Iesus Christ and that hée himselfe expoundeth hell for the tribulations extreme sorrowes the death the pit the sepulchre the low places and the estate and condition of the dead from which Iesus Christ is raised He maketh there no mencion of the Limbe of Purgatory nor of the gehenne or hell fire That same solution sufficeth for all the other places by thée alledged For that is very common in the Scripture to take hell in that signification as it appeareth by those places the which thou bast put foorth For how many times saith the Prophet in those same places The sighings of the dead haue enuironed me I haue called vpoÌ„ thée in my trouble I haue cryed vnto thée and thou hast healed mée Thou hast deliuered mee from those that goe down into the pit He meaneth none other thing by those woords but that he setteth foorth and declareth that hell from which he was deliuered Wherefore I am greatly ashamed both of Eccius and of Cochleus for that they were not ashamed to alledge such places for to mainteine their Purgatory Eusebius Whatsoeuer thou sayest it seemeth neuerthelesse that already in the time of Saint Paul the Christians were of an opinion that the liuinge might giue some ayde vnto the deade by that that hée writeth of those which did baptise themselues for the dead Nowe that could not profite neither those which were in Paradise nor those which were in hell It must be then that it profiteth those of Purgatory Theophilus Thou oughtest alreadye to haue vnderstanded by that which hath bene sayde of that place that it can serue nothing at all for Purgatory I doe not denye vnto thée but that in the time of the Apostles there were suffrages and prayers for the dead But that was among the Panims and Idolaters as it hath bene already very amply entreated off amongest vs And doubte not but that there remayneth some roote of such superstition in some of those which are called Christians But if it were so as thou doest vnderstande it it followeth not therefore that Sainct Paul alloweth that manner of dooing As the auncient Doctors themselues dooe witnesse it namely Sainct Ambrose For I may well take an argument against a Papist which will denye vnto mée the resurrection or immortalitie of the soules with their manner of dooings towardes the dead for to beate him with his owne swoorde and yet I will not allow neuerthelesse their superstition But it is not néedfull to stay any more vpon that place sith that I haue already declared vnto thée howe the auncientes haue vnderstanded it and howe it is also expounded by others For whatsoeuer exposition that thou maist giue vnto it it cannot serue for thy purpose And there was neuer any of the auncientes which hath dreamed that the same was done bicause of Purgatorye For Epiphanius witnesseth that those which baptised themselues for the dead which were dead before that they had receiued Baptisme did it to that ende that when they shoulde rise againe in the resurrection they shoulde not bée punished for that they haue not bene baptised in this worlde He sayth that such was their opinion Wherefore it is easily to knowe that they did not thinke of Purgatory Hée toucheth yet an other exposition of that place the which hée alloweth But yet it maketh lesse for thée To conclude that place serueth as much for your broylers of soules for to proue your Purgatory as for the Marcionistes heretickes who as witnesseth Theophilactus doe drawe them to their purpose for to proue their baptisme which they receiue for the dead For when any dyed among them without baptisme they had a custome that one that was a liue should enter within the béere of the dead or where the dead was layde Afterwards they did come vnto the béere and demaunded of the dead if he will be baptised Then the liue man
to their nature for to render vnto God the honour which apperteyneth vnto him Euen so ought we to vnderstand of al other creatures which are all the liuely Images of God which declare vnto vs those meruailes and doe speake better hauing no mouth then the Images which haue mouthes and speake not and which crye not thorow their throate And therefore how many creatures may there be vnder the earth which do praise God in that manner And notwithstanding that the dampned and reprobate doe not praise him in that sort as he is praised of the elect yet they are neuerthelesse constrained to praise glorifâ—e him against their wills and they cannot doe nor speake any thing which serueth not vnto his honour and glory Eusebius Sith that by thy expositions thou hast already pulled out of my handes all the argumentes that I haue against thee I will display at once that which remaineth behinde What wilt thou say vpon that other place taken from the same booke in which is spoken of the holy citie of the celestial Hierusalem after this maÌ„ner ther shal enter into it no vncleane thing To which agreeth that which is written in Esay This shal be called the holy way no vncleane person shall goe thorow it Theophilus What wilt thou that I should aunswere thée vppon the same There is none that will deny but that he must be purged from all his sinnes before he can come vnto the eternall lyfe For flesh and bloud cannot inherite the kingdome of god But the purgation is not done by the fire of Purgatory but by the bloude of Iesus Christ by the which we are washed purified when thorow the word of god thorow faith our hearts are sprinkled Therefore sayd Iesus Christ vnto his disciples you are cleane bicause of the words which you haue heard We are purged when we obteine remission of our sinnes and that the Lorde forgetteth them not imputing them vnto vs and remembring them according to that which is written Blessed are those whose iniquities are forgiuen whose sins are couered Blessed is the man vnto whom the Lord imputeth no sinne Thomas I doe greatly feare Eusebius sith that thou art already come vnto the Apocalips but that thou wilt be by and by at the ende of thy knowledge For that is the ende of the new Testament and of all the canonicall Scripture Hillarius I beléeue that he hath conducted and lead vs euen vnto the Apocalips for to bury his Purgatory to the ende we may helpe him to sing his Requiescant in pace For I beleeue that he will dye héere and that hée shall passe no further Your Doctors doe write that after the Iudgement Purgatory and hell shal be all one But I beléeue that that Purgatory which thou wouldest haue proued in the Apocalips to be none other thing then those pondes of fire and brimstone in which the beast which hath engendered Purgatory is cast with hir false Prophets into the eternall bottomlesse pitte Theophilus What sayst thou Eusebius to the same Hast thou no more refuge Or whether thy arriere woorde bee altogether disconfited Eusebius I haue no more wherewith to reuenge me except I shew foorth that place of Saint Peter which witnesseth that the spirite of Iesus Christ preached vnto the spirites which were in prisen By the which prison I cannot vnderstand but Purgatory or the Lymbe At the leastwise it must bee that thou doest allowe the one or the other Theophilus That obiection commeth well to purpose for to aunswere also to the question of Thomas and to those which would haue a preaching of the Gospell in the other world Thomas I am very gladde that thou hast not forgotten it and that the occasion serueth so well Theophilus But before I will enter into it I will agayne admonish thee that I wil not define nor determine any thing of the estate of the dead besides that which the holy Scripture hath expressely reuealed vnto me Wherefore I do conclude that although it should be so that those estéeme it to be true yet neuertheles I shall not be of that opinion that any person should trust vnto it and that hée should leaue off to doe his endeauour in this worlde to seeke Iesus Christ sith that the Scripture doth not promise vnto vs cleerely any ether remedie nor any other preaching and reuelation for our saluation after this lyfe Therfore I would gladly allow in this matter that which Gregory writeth touching Purgatory For notwithstanding that he did beleeue that in the same one might be purged from his sinnes yet neuerthelesse he sayth that it is most sure to gouerne himselfe so in this worlde that one néedeth not of that remedie in the other but to haue there his recourse and hope Thomas I am of thy opinion But expound vnto vs at the least the places that one may alleadge them to that purpose for to haue the intellygence thereoff Theophilus That which hath most shew is that which Eusebius hath touched in which is written that Christ hath once suffered for the sinnes the iust for the vniust for to bring vs to God and was killed as perteining to the flesh But was quickened in the spirite In which spirit he also went and preached vnto the spirites that were in prison which were in time passed disobedient when the long suffering abode exceeding patiently in the dayes of Noâ— c The other is by and by after where he saith that the wicked shall giue accompt vnto him that is ready to Iudge quicke and dead For vnto this purpose verely was the Gospell preached vnto the dead that they should be iudged lyke other men in the flesh but should lyue before god in the spirite Behold two places after which many learned men haue much trauayled and haue expounded them many wayes Yet neuerthelesse it hath bene most commonly taken for the Lymbe after that it was forged and inuented bicause that he speaketh of the spirits which were in prison or in the lower partes to whome Iesus Christ hath preached Those there haue vnderstanded by those spirits the soules of the auncient Fathers By the prison the Helles and the Lymbes in which they were deteined The others which are so affectioned after the Purgatory that there is not a place in all the Scripture which they endeauour not to wrest draw either wrongfully or ouerthwartly and haue taken that prison for Purgatory the spirits for the soules that are there But these héere haue lesse shew and doe put themselues more out of reason then the others Chiefely sith that there is none of the Auncients that I know not of those which haue beleeued the Purgatory that haue vnderstanded it after that manner and which haue alleadged it to that purpose Wherefore it is not needeful to aunswere them any further But for to come to the exposition of those places I will first aduertise you that there are
diuers interpretacions the which I will recyâ—â— some to the ende that thou shouldest not thinke that I doe condempne all the others which haue expounded it Or that I am more arrogant then all men and that I doe attribute more to my sence and iudgdement then to any other If I define rashlye of a thinge the which all the Expositours haue founde it so obscure and harde that many among them haue bene constrayned to confesse that they cannot vnderstande it Then I will touch the diuers expositions which are more sufferable Afterwardes I will signifie vnto you that which I thinke to be most proper There are some which doe not vnderstand that Saint Peter speaketh héere but of the lyuing vnto whom Iesus Christ hath preached the gospell aswell in his owne proper person as by his Prophets and Apostles which haue all spoken by his spirite Wherefore one may well say that Iesus Christ hath preached vnto theÌ„ sith that it was not they that did speake but Iesus Christ who by his holy spirite did speake in them Those heere do take the words of Saint Peter by a Metaphore and by an Allegorie and doe vnderstande by the spirits which were in prison the dead vnto whom it is sayd in the chapter following that the Gospell was preached saying that saint Peter by that seconde place expoundeth the first Now by these dead vnto whom hath bene preached they vnderstand not the dead but doe take that word by a Metaphore vnderstanding by the dead the sinners which are dead thorâ—w sinne the which he hath called before the spirits which were in prison bicause that the soule which is dead thorow sinne is holden by the same as a prisoner which is in bondes and fetters in the stockes and in prison Those which doe expounde it after that manner notwithstanding that they doe accorde as touching the interpretation of the words yet neuerthelesse they doe a lytâ—le differ touching that spirite by the which Iesus Christ went and preached vnto the spirits which were in prison For some doe expound it for the manifestation of Iesus Christ which hath bene before his comming Others for that which hath followed his comming These heere doe vnderstand by the spirite the holy Ghost which Iesus Christ sent and gaue vnto his â—posâ—les by the which he hath preached the Gospel to the Iewes and â—entiles which before were rebellious and disobedient vnto the worde of God. Wherefore hee calleth them rebellyng and disobedient spirits deteined in the captiuitie of errour and of sinne For although that Iesus Christ ascended into heauen and hath taken his body from vs yet neuerthelesse he is alwaies among vs by the vertue of his spirite by the which he speaketh in his Apostles Ministers and Euangelycall Pastors and preacheth and admonisheth alwayes the sinners and toucheth their heart and conducteth and leadeth their spirits by his for to make them enter into his Church for to saue the elect in the same as those which were saued in the Arke of Noe. There is nothing in this exposition contrary to the Analogie of the faith and the sence of the Scriptures But yet neuerthelesse it séemeth to some to be a lyttle allegorised and vyolated and to stray a lyttle too far front the Apostolycal simplycitie Although that it be tollerable and Christian lyke Others doe vnderstande by the spirite of Christ his eternall vertue by the which he hath bene long time agone the Sauiour and Iudge of the worlde as he is at this present the Sauiour by the water as he doth now by the baptisme And therefore they doe vnderstand that he is gone by his spirit by his diuine vertue by his word thorow out the world as he passed thorow out Aegipt declaring his power among the Aegyptians sauing the Israelites Asmuch hath hée done in the time of the floude and doth yet at this day For he declareth his Iudgement vnto the wicked hath drowned them in the floude euen as now he declareth it vnto all to the ende that his seruaunts may be saued in the Arke of the Churche and the others drowned by the Iudgement of god Therefore is Noe called the herauld of righteousnesse for to declare that by the same the spirite of Iesus Christ declareth vnto men the righteousnes and Iudgement of God as a king declareth the warre by an herauld of armes vnto those which doe rebell agaynst him and refuse peace And the word which Saint Peter vsed when he sayd y Iesus Christ hath preached vnto the spirits doth not signifie onely to preach but also to publish a commaundement and an ordinaunce as an Herauld And that worde herauld the which Saint Peter vsed speaking of Noe is taken of the very same of which he vseth saying that Iesus Christ hath preached vnto the spirites And as to that that Saint Peter calleth them spirits they thinke that he did it hauing regarde to their thoughtes and affections beeing possessed with euill spirits And doe buylde their interpretation vppon that which is written God did sée y all the thoughts of mans heart was giuen vnto euill And vppon that which Saint Paul speaking of the power which is giuen vnto him by the ministring of the Gospell sayth that it is for to beat downe euery high thing which exalteth it selfe agaynst God and for to bring into captiuitie the thoughts and spirites of men to the obedtence of Christ delyuering them from the subiection of the wicked spirites which doe holde captiâ—e the spirites and vnderstanding of the reprobate They doe vnderstand then by the spirites which were in prison those which were in the spirituall prison or whose spirits were deteyned in captiuitie and prison by the wicked spirits They haue yet regard vnto that that the scripture calleth those which perished by the floude the sonnes of God which did see the daughters of men and to that which is there written that the Lord did strike and destroy euery soule and taketh from the middes of them euery spirite and that he hath sayd in threatning them that he will take from them his spirite For that cause they thinke that Saint Peter was induced to call such men spirits bicause that whilest that their spirits did sleepe and were detemed by the wicked spirits they were ouercome and drowned by the waters of the sloude and the spirit was taken from them as to him which was strangled and câ—oked in the water They also haue regarde to that that that worde which Saint Peter hath vsed which we doe interprete prison doth also signifie the watche and warde which is kept in the night Insomuch that they thinke that Saynt Peter had regard vnto the parable of Iesus Christ which admonisheth euery one to watch as the faithfull seruant looking for his master who knoweth not what houre hée will come whether it be in the seconde thirde or fourth watch of the night and for a
peace and at rest Wherefore let vs sing an other Oremus Let vs suffer them to sing that in stéede of Vigiles and of Libera me and of their Fidelium and I will make his Epitaph which shall serue him for his latter Oremus O gentle sir Iohn who of Purgatory Hast gotten so much of siluer and golde Make speedely to be known to all of the Popry To sing Requiem aeternam for his sweete soule By him an Epicures lyfe thou didst lead But now alas he is dead an hath no place And with him thy earthly kingdome is dead Sing for him then Requiescant in pace Thomas Amen Now sith that he is buryed let vs goe to Supper that he may haue also his funerall Supper and that wée may as well banket as the priests in those of the dead in the dayes of their Anniuersaries yeares minde Hillarius Let vs goe FINIS ¶ A Table of the principall matters of the thirde parte of the Christian disputacions A. ABsolution of the quick and the dead 275. Aduertisement 293. Against the Originists 272. Alexander 283. Amongst whom are reputed the soules of Purgatory 274. Anabaptists 238. Ansegisus 234 Angells dare not curse the diuells 285. Aunswere to the place of the Psalmes 263. Antechrist 276. Antiochus 215. Apocripha what it is 216. Apostles of the circumcision 257. Apothegma 211 Archesilaus 257. Argument a posteriori 279. Asshes of Pope Boniface 280. Augmentation of the felycitie to Angels 246. Authoritie of the booke of the Machabees 213. Authoritie of the Prophets Apostles 217. Authoritie of the Scripture 217. Authoritie of the church 217. B. Baptise with the holy Ghost and fire 235 Baptise two times in the yeare 239 Baptisme delayed 239. Baptisme onely of Iesus Christ 256 Baptisme of woemen 241 Baptisme of water whether it be necessary to saluation 232. Baptisme of deuotion 233. Baptisme of bloud 237. To be baptised for the dead 290 Beginning of the iudgement of God. 247. Beginning of Hell and Paradise 248. Bonauenture deified and made God. 283. Boniface the eight 280. Bookes Canonicall 216. Bookes of Thoby 262. Booke second of the Machabees 217 Bookes Canonical and Apocripha 214 Bookes of Ioseph 214 To be borne agayne of water how it is be vnderstanded 234. Bosome of Abraham 225 Boow the knee 291 Bulles doing all things 284 Bulles in Purgatory 277. Burying of Purgatory 299. Burying of the conscience 277. C. Candell before 268 Canons of the Apostles 215 Cathecismenes 237 Circumcision deferred 229 Christ the restorer of all things 247 Christ our pledge 215. Church of Lausanne 256. One onely and eternall Church 244. Charecter indebilis 276. Charles 256. Clement the sixt 283. Clockes of Purgatory 286. Comparison of the diuine and humaine doctrine 264. Comperison of the lyfe present and that to come 246. Condition of the childreÌ„ of the christioÌ„s 230. Conscience 247. Conscientia mille testes 247. Consolation in Abrams bosome 231. Contrarieties of Canons 285 Cornelius 298. Counsell of Africa 242. Creame Papisticall 276. Creators of the Creator 281. Custome of the true false doctors 266. D. Day of the Lord. 264. Dead doe bite 274. The dead how they are punished in their successours 253 Degrees of the Iudgement of god 249 Descending of Christ into hell 296. Difference betweene the Limbe Purgatory and Hell. 22â— Difference betweene the fire of Purgatory and Hell. 221. Difference betweene the olde and new Testament 244 Difference betweene the dead vnder the olde and new Testament 244 DispeÌ„sation of the tresure of the church 284 Disposition of this Dialogue 262 Diuersitie of pardons 271 Doctrine troublesome 259 Doctors scholasticall doubting of the bulls 284. Dreames of the Saints and of the rauing Theologasters 213 Dreamers or sleepers 249. E. Eccius 262. Encrease of glory in the other lyfe 245. Enâ—ant how it shall beare the iniquitie of his father 253. Error about the Sacraments 238. Error touching the Supper 234. Error of the Bohemians Morians 234. Estate of the soules after the seperation from the body 249 Eternitie temporall 272. Euangelists of the Pope 287. Example of the long dayes in Purgatory 286. Example of Iudas Machabeus 251. Example of the mercy of God. 220. Example 212. 286 Example of Fryer Roger. 277. Examples that the Saynts ought not to be all drawne into a generall consequence 243. Example of Ziphora 243. Exposition of the place of Saint Iohn ca. 3. 234. Exposition of the schoolemen vppon the plâ—ce of Saint Iohn ca. 3. 236 Exposition of the place of Thoby 262. Exposition of the place of the 1. Cor. ca. 3. 263. Exposition Allegoricall 268 Excommunicate the dead 282. Excommunicate the doctrine of the dead 285 Ex puris negatiuis nihill sequitur 271. F. Fable of Theseus and Pyrothus 221. Fable of the fayned mourning of a Laborer 300. Fable of Gregory 221. Faith of Symon 240. Fire 265. Foundation of the order of the Mendicants 287. Fryer Christopher 255. Friends of the kitchin 223. Furyed and she diuells 248. G. Gates of dreames 212 Gate of yâ—ory and of horne 213. Gentiles saued without Circumcision 229. Gerion 258. Gibellinus 280. God of Hipocrites 22â— God compared to tyrants 252. Good workes 223. Grace halfe 251. Great Lockyer 276. 2â—5 Greatnesse of the paines of Purgatory 221. Gregory the first made no mention of bulls for the dead 284. H. Halfe a sauiour 251 Hangmen of Infants 238. Harman condempned by the Pope 282 Saint Harman 282 Hell of the Origenists and Catabaptists 224. Helindius 270 Henticus 4. 282 Hercules 258. Herostratus 256. Herostratus burned the Temple of Diana 256. Herauld of righteousnesse 29â— Holy Ghost a fire 235. Holy Ghost water 235. Honour to the sacraments 2â—9 Hostensis contrary to the bulls 284. Hipocrits enuious of the grace of god 220 Hydra 258. I. Ignoraunce excuseth 〈◊〉 289. Image of death 250 Indians 235. Incredulitie of Thomas 212. Insufficiencie of the booke of the Machabees for to proue Purgatory 2â—1 〈◊〉 of saints for the dead 277. Ioseph authour of the booke of the Machabees 214. Isaac and Ismael Iubile of the Pope 283. Iubile of God. 283. Iudgement of the Scriptures to whom it apperteineth 216. Iudgement by the word 211. Iudgement of the Sodomites and Gomorrians 288. Iudgement of saint Hierome touching the bookes of the Machabees 214 Iustice and mercy of God. 222 K. Keyes of saint Peter of the Pope 276. Keyes of hell 279 Keye chaunged 276. Kindrâ—â—s of Loth. 288 L. Languages of the Prophets 217 Our Lady of Butter 241. Legends of Saints 215. Legittimation 216. Lembe 226. Lembus 226. Limbus 225. Saint Lewes canonized 282 Licence Theologicall 225 Limbe of the Infants destroyed 238. Limbe of the Infants 226. Limbe of the Fathers 244. Limbe 219. 297 Limbe what it signifieth 225. Liuing called dead 294 Ludâ— seculares 283. M. Madianiâ—s papisticall 287. Machabees 215. Man making Gods. 280. Manner to know God. 279. Marke of conscience 277 Marke of the great whore 277. Marâ—â—â—nists 242. Martirs before the comming of Iesus
Christ 21â— Masses for the lyttle Infants 259. Masse of Requiem for the Saints 255 Mans reason the foundation of purgatory 222. Men that are dead Gods to the Idolaters 282. Mercury 269. Ministers of Sacraments 241. Moonkes dead to the world 274. Mortui non mordent 274. N. Necessitie 228. New Letanie 255. New transfiguration of Sathan 258. O. Obiection 2â—3 222. 232. Obiection of the necessitie of baptisme 237. Office of a Lieuetenaunt 27â— Offices Ecclesiasticall 241. The onely death of Iesus Christ satisfieth 220. One onely God. 280. Opinion of Lombard 227 P. Pagatory 276. Paynes of the Limbe 224 Payne for satisfaction 220. Payne and fault 251. Paynes of purgatory 224. Pardons to whom they profit 285. Pelagians 239. Poena damni poena sensus 224. Philip king of Fraunce 280. Pickelockes 286. Place of purgatory 279 Place of Saint Luke ca. 12. 287. Place of the Actes ca. 2. 289. Place of Saint Mathew ca 12. declâ—â—ed 271. Place of the Apoc. ca. 5. 292. Place of the 1. Corinthians ca. 15. 290. Place of the Philippians ca. 2. 291. Place of Saint Peter 1. ca. 3. 293. Place of Thoby contrary to the priests 262 Place of Saint Mathew ca. 5. expounded 267. Place of the second booke of the Machabees serueth nothing at all for purgatory 219. Playes and games of the Panims 283 Pope God and more then God. 278 Pope Clement the sixt cyted by Fryer walter being dead 286. Pope Lieuetenaunt of Saint Peter 274 Pope more puissant then Christ 252. Pope hath more power then the saints 278. Pope Iudge of the quick and the dead 284. Power of the keies and indulgences for the dead 274. Power of the keyes 274. Power of the keyes lymitted in this worlde 284 Power to giue pardons lymitted 285. Power of the dead vppon the Popes 286. Prayse giuen to God for all creatures 292. Prayers for the resurrection 252 Prayers for the Saints that be in Paradise 255 Prayer for the deade how that may be done 253 Prayer for the resurrection of the bodye and the comming of Christ 254. Prayers of the diuells 291. Predication to the dead 273. 293. 296. â—he Priests or woemen Priests 242. Priesthoode of the dead 276. Prison 297. Prisoners 29â— Prochet Archbishop of Genes 280. Propositions equipolents 271. The latter Prophets 217. Prouerbe common 211. 267 Priuiledge 220. Punishment vppon those that doe reiect the Gospell 289. Punishment of the elect with the reproreprobate 188. Punishment of sinnes 222. Purgatory the nurse of sinnes 222 Purgatory by what reason it is builded 219. Purgatory before the coÌ„ming of Christ 219. Purgatory of purses 276. Purgatory for the body 258. Q. Question of the Infantes of the Hebrewes dead without circumcision 226. Question Theologicall 230. R. Rage of Pope Stephen against Formosus 281. Raymond 251. Rebellion and dispising the commaundements of God. 223 Reconciliation fraternall 269. Regeneration 234. Regula 267. Renumeration of good deedes 222. Reward of foolish builders 26â— Requâ—escant in pace in Purgatory 293. De Roma the defiler of the faith 18â— S. Sacrifice of Christ eternall 24â— Saluation without exterior Sacraments 229. Saluation without Baptisme 237. Saluation lyâ—â— to the elements 233 Saluation without visible Baptisme 213. Saluation by piruiledge 220. Sara and Agar 256. Saued by fire 265. Saul a persecutor made an Apostle 299. See God before and behinde 279. Seigniory of Iesus Christ 291 Sence and meaning of the words of S. Peter 1. epist. Cap. 3. 296. Sence of S. Mat. words Cap. 5. 270. Sence of the words of S. Luc. Cap. 11. 270. Sence of the words of Iesus Christ vpon the 5. Cap of Saint Mat. 269. Sence of the parable 270. Sentence of Saint Augustine touching the children that are dead without baptisme 238. Sergeants of Purgatory 268. Sergius and Formosus 281 Shed out ones bread and wine vpon the graues of the iust 262 Sichimites 230 Signe to iudge the true and false Prophets 258. Signes and figures for the thinges signed and figured 240 Silla and Marius 281. Sillogisme 178 Signification of Limbe 225. Simâ—n Peter 276 Sinne against the holy Ghost 272 Sinne to death 256. Sinne originall 2â—9 Sextus 283. Skirmishers 257. Solution of Baptisme 237. Sâ—â—e of the Scripture of the auncient Doctors touching the Sacramets 236 Stella Clericorum 281. Speaking of dumbe and incorporal creatures 292 Spirite of Bacchus 213. Spirites prisoners 295 Spirite that preached to the dead what â—â— it is 294 Supper giuen to Infantes by Ciprian and Origene 234. Suburbes of hell and of Paradise 226. T. Theology inferior and metaphisical 257 Those which haue not beleeued in this world 298. Three sortes of baptisme 237 Treasure of the Church and the dispensation of the same 284 Treasure of the Church 264. Three hells 224 Torments of the reprobate agrauated 247. Transfer and giue kingdomes 280. True Gedeon 287. Two wayes 225 V. Vaineglory 257. Valentinian 233. Valew of twelue thousand â—ragmes 213 Vertue of Iesus Christ come to the dead 196. Vertue of the buls and pardons 283 Vse of Allegories 298. W. Warre of the Geants 256. Wells 297 Wells of Saint Patricke 212. Wells of fire and brimstone 293. What knowledge of God is necessary to saluation 279 298 Who doe boow the knee in hell 291. Witnesse of God. 218. Witnesse of conscience that he is a God. 248. Word of God Iudge and guide 212. Workes of hipocrites 223. Worme of the conscience 249. FINIS TABVLAE MIEVLX VAVLT MOVRIR EN VERTV QVE VIVRE EN HONCTE ¶ Imprinted at London by Thomas East dwelling by Paules wharfe 1579. A prouerbe Luc. 16. l. 20. The cause of y temptation to the elect Heb. 4. d. 15. The fall of Peter Mat. 26. g. 25. Luc 22. l. 60 The errour of Saul Act. 7. 8. 9 The darknesse of the vvorld Exo. 10. l. 22. The Aegyptians at this present time Aegypt and Babilon One onely veritie The meanes for to finde out the truth Prouerbe The foole counsaileth the vvise Sape etiam est holitor valde opportuna locutus The lavve of the Babilonians for the diseased Herodo It. 1. Bxo. 23. 〈◊〉 Latine bookes All languages good to God. Luc. 4. d. 23. The gift of tongues Act 2. 2. 1. French bookes Anacharsis Amos. 7. d. 13. Dauid Esay The Apostolicall eloquence and humaine â—loquÌ„ence Curious men of speaches Manglers of Latine These vvhich doe auoide the reading of dinine bookes Prouerbe Velut Canis Nilo All Artes and disciplines the handmaides of holy bookes Doctrinall of Alexander Eloquence vvithout the feare of God. Cleero and Gariline Eschines and Demostlienes The true science and eloquence Esa. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 3. Iohn 17. 23 Out of east of the bread of life Curious readers of foolish bookes The svveet smellings vnto hogs Vile and filthy bookes Fooles bables Good books despised forbidden The Christian all to all men 1. Cot. 9. c. 20. Holy deceyts Booke discouering the abuses The office of fooles and scoffers Vile and 〈◊〉 be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 An idle vvord Mat. 12.