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A01273 A disputacio[n] of purgatorye made by Ioh[a]n Frith which is deuided in to thre bokes. The first boke is an answere vnto Rastell, which goeth aboute to proue purgatorye by naturall phylosophye. The seconde boke answereth vnto Sir Thomas More, which laboureth to proue purgatorye by scripture. The thirde boke maketh answere vnto my lorde of Rochestre which most leaneth vnto the doctoures Frith, John, 1503-1533. 1531 (1531) STC 11386.5; ESTC S109726 90,667 148

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their deeth For when I saye that I wyll not forgeue hym neyther in my liffe nor after my deeth I meane that I wyll neuer forgeue hym and make that addicion because he shulde not of folysh nes loke for any such forgevenesse But thus foloweth the argumēt well it shall not be forgeuen in thys worlde nor in the worl de to come ergo it shall neuer be forgeuen And even so doth Saynte Marce expounde these wordes of christ in the thyrde chaptre For Mathew sayeth in the. xii He that speaketh ag enst the holye goost shall neuer haue yt forgeuen in this worlde nor in the worlde to come Marc. expoundeth yt thus he that spea keth a blaspemye agenst the holye gost hath no remission for ever but is giltye vnto euerlastinge damnacyon But of thys haue I spoken suffycientlye before in solutynge the texte 1. Ioan. 5. both what the synne ys and also how the texte ys to be vnderstande Neyther affe●…meth the scripture in anye place y t anye sinne ys forgeuē after this liffe but saith be readye for ye knowe not the tyme when the lorde shall come as who shulde saye in thys lyfe ys remissyon and full mer cye to ●…e had laboure therfore to attayne yt for after thys lyfe ys no such forgevene sse but euē as y ● lorde fyndeth y ● so shal he iudge y ● Hys nexte last argu mēt of scriptu re is thys ☜ CHryst saeyth as yt ys rehersed in y ● xii of Mathew y ● men shall yelde a rekenynge of everye ydle worde and that shalbe after thys present lyffe Thēwoteth euerye man that by that rekeninge ys vnderstonde a punyshmēt therfore whych shall not be in hell moch lesse in heuē ād therfore cā yt be now here els but in purgatoye 〈◊〉 I haue not harde of a partone that so vnprofytable defendeth hys clyent nor yet of any man that geueth hym sylfe such propre trippes to cast hym selfe excepte he w●…nt aboute to betraye and vtterlye destroye the parte which he wolde seme to fauoure for this texte maketh more agenst him thē anye that he brought before semeth to make wi th him The wordes of Mathewe are these I tell you that of everye idle worde that men spe ake shall they yelde a rekeninge in y ● daye of iu dgement but that leuet●… he out full craftelye Now let vs reason of this texte By the rekenin ge is vnderstonde a punishment for the sinne as Master More sayeth him silfe and this re keninge shalbe vppon the daye of dome ergo then this punishment for sinne can not be before the daye of dome but eyther vppon or els after the daye of dome For god will not first punish them and then after reken with thē to punish them anewe And so is purgatorye quyte excluded For al they that ever imagined anye purgatorye do put it before the iudgement for when christ cometh to iudgement then ceaseth p●…rgatorye as they all consent neyther is there any prayer or sufrage which at that tyme cā do anye helpe at all And so hath master More by this texte geven him silfe a propre fall Here maye you se ●…ow strōge his reasons are and what will happen to him that taketh in hā de to defende the falsehed agenst the truth of goddes worde for his reasons make more agēst him then with him you maye wel knowe that if his matter had bene anye thinge likelye he wol de haue coloured it if a nother facion But sith such a patrone so greatlye commended for his conveyaunce and wysedome handleth this mat ter so slenderlye you maye well mistrust his cau se. Th●…s is the last reason grounded of scripture wher with he hath laboured to proue purgatorye And after his reason he rekeneth vpp the doctoures ād saith for his pleasure that all make for him but as touchinge the doctours I wil make a suffycient answere in the thirde parte which is agenst my lorde of Rochestre Thus he leueth the scripture which he hath full vnmanerlye handled and now endevoureth him silfe to proue his purposse by some pro bable reasons And first he bringeth in his olde argument that the church can not erre to the which reason I nede not to answere for wyllyam Tindale hath declared abundantlye in a treatise which by goddes grace you shall shortlye haue whate the church is and also that it both maye erre and doth erre if the pope ād his adherentes be the church as master More imagineth After this he cōfirmeth his phantasye with phantasticall apparicions sayenge that there haue in everie contre and in everye age ap paricions bene had and wel knowne and testifyed by which men haue had suffycient reuelation and pro●…e of purgatorye How manye haue by goddes most gracious fauoure appered to their frendes after their deeth and shewed them selves holpen and delyuered thence by pil grimages almosedede prayer c̄ If they saye y ● these be lyes then be they moch worse thē their master Luther him silfe for he cōsenteth in his sermons that manye such apparicions be tru●… and if they be true then must there nedes be a purgatorye Here playeth master More the sotle soph●… ●…ter and wolde deceave mē with a fallace which lyeth in this worde true so that whē he sayeth that such apparicions be true this sentence ma ye be taken two maner of wayes One that it is true that such phātastical apparicions do ap peare to diverse and that I thinke no man be so folish but he will graunte him And yet in dede are they no soules but verye devels that so appeare to delude men that they shulde falle from the faith of Christ and make a god of their awne workes trustinge to be saved therebye But to suppose this true y ● they are the soules of purgatorye which so appeare is verye fonde false and agenst al scriptu re for Esai sayeth shall we goo for the quicke vnto the deed that is shall we enquyre of the deed and beleue them in such poyntes as concerne oure welth Naye saith he but vnto the lawe and witnes that is vnto god and his worde And so are we monished by Esay in the. 8. that we beleue no such phantasyes we are also commaunded by the lawe of god that we enquyre not of the deed not for the truth for god abhorreth it Deuteronomye xviij Besides that the parable of the rich man and Lazarus doth vtterlye condemne all such appa ricyons that they are no soules which appeare but verye devels For when the rich man desyred that Lazarus might go and warne his brothren that they shulde not come in to that place of payne Abraham answered that they had Moses and the Prophetes addinge also that if they beleved not them then wolde they not beleue although one shulde ryse agayne and tell it th●…m And so maye I conclude that it were in vay 〈◊〉 to
¶ A disputaciō of purgatorye made by Johan Frith which is deuided in to thre bokes ¶ The first boke is an answere vnto Rastell which goeth aboute to proue purgatorye by naturall philosophye ¶ The seconde boke answereth vnto Sir Thomas More which laboureth to proue purgatorye by scripture ¶ The thirde boke maketh answere vnto my lorde of Rochestre which most leaneth vnto the doctoures ☞ Beware lest any man come and spoyle you thorow philosophye and deceytfull vanite thorow the tradicions of men and ordinacions after the worlde and not after Christ. ☜ Colossenices ii Johan Frith vnto the Christen Reader GRace and peace be with the christen reader I am sure there are manye that will moch mer uel and counte it a greate presumpcion that I beinge so yon ge and of so smalle lerninge da re attēpte to dispute this matter agēst these thre personages of the which numbre two that is to saye my 〈◊〉 de of Rochestre ād Sir thomas More are aun cient mē both of greate witte and dignite Notwithstondinge I wil desire them pacientlye 〈◊〉 heare mine answere not aduertysinge who spea keth the wordes but rathere what is sayed And as concerninge myne youth let them remembre what paule monischeth 〈◊〉 Timo. 〈◊〉 willinge that Timothens shuld instrude the congregacion and that no man shulde despice his youthe for as the sprete of god is boūde to no place euē so is he not addicre to any age or person but enspireth when he will and where he wil makin 〈◊〉 the yonge to se visiōs espye the truth and ●…he eldres to dreame dreames and to wandre in phantasyes Ades 2. Joe●… 2. And as touchinge my l●…ninge I must nedes aknowiege as the truth is that it is verysmal neuerthelesse that litle as I am bounde haue I determed by goddes grace to bestowe to the edefyinge of christes congregaciō which I praye god to encrease in the knowlege of his worde I wolde not that any man shulde admitte my wordes or lerninge excepte they will stonde with the scripture and be approued therbye Laye them to the touchstone ād trye them with goddes worde If they be founde false ād countrefaite then dampne them and I shall also reuo●…e them with all myne harte But if the scri pture alowe them that you can not denye but it so is then reciste not the doctrine of god but knowlege youre ignoraunce and seduccion and retourne gladlye in to the right waye For if you can not improue it by goddes worde and yet of an hate and malicious minde that you beare vnto the truth laboure to resist it and cō 〈◊〉 it that it shulde not sprede I ensure you youre sinne is ●…remissible and euen agenst the holye gost and the bloude of them that perish for faute of enstruccion shalbe requyred on youre handes ●…araduenture some of you will saye that youre fathers and olde 〈◊〉 with ma ny holye men and doctoureo haue so heleued that therfore you will abyde by the olde I an swere The wayes and iudgementes of god are m●…ruelous who 〈◊〉 whethere god haue suffered his 〈◊〉 to erre and be seduced for a 〈◊〉 to the 〈◊〉 that the vnfaithfull which wold not beleue the truth but had pleasure in iniquite might st●…ble at their erroure in to their 〈◊〉 confusion and ruyne Al though a mā be neuer so faithfull and holye yet is there moch imperf●…ction in him as longe as he is included in this mortall bodye how be it it is not imputed vnto him but thorow the faith in christes bloude hoellye pacefyed and forgeuen And ther fore it is not sure that we folowe their exterior workes or other imaginacions but let vs euer conferre them vnto the pure worde of god and as the 〈◊〉 testefyeth so let 〈◊〉 th●… 〈◊〉 lorde of Rochestre doth testefye him silfe writinge vppō the. 〈◊〉 article that there are manye poyntes both of the gospels and other scriptures which are now discussed more 〈◊〉 lye and more clerelye vnderstondē then they ha ue bene in tymes past And addeth furthermore that there are diuerse places ī scripture yet sum deale darke which he douteth not but that they shalbe more open and light vnto our●… posterite for why shall we despayre of that sayeth he sith that the scripture is for that entent lefte with vs that it maye be vnderstonde of vs exactlye and to the vttmost poynte Of this maye you euidentl●…e perceaue that ●…he olde fathers and holye doctoures haue not sene all the truth But sumwhat is also lefte thorow the hye prouision of god to be discussed of their successoures And therfore is it not mete that we streyght wayes cleaue vnto their wordes with out any further enserchinge the scriptures but we must examine all thinges by the scriptures although S. Paule or Peter shulde preach it vnto vs as we se experience Actes xvij that when Paule preached the audience daylye serched the scriptures whether it were as he sayed But you haue bene of longe continuaunce secluded from the scriptures which is the cause of such grosse erroures as ye are now fallen in so that ye coulde neyther serch them nor yet once loke on them Alas what blindnes doth occupye oure ey●…s Are ye so childishe to beleue that the same worde which hath made the vnfaithfull and heretikes faithfull and christen in tymes past is now so farre altered that it shulde cause the faithfull and christen to become he reti●…es I praye god open youre eyes How be it we maye now wel tast at oure fingres endes that we haue longe bene in that miserable case that Paule prophesyed vppon vs. ij Thessalo ij that god hath sent vs stronge delusions because we wolde not receave the knowlege of the truth what greater delusion can we haue then to thinke that the verye worde of god which was writen for oure comforte which is the verye fode and sastenaunce of oure soules which is the sure metyarde and perfeyte touchstone that iudgeth and examineth all thinges to thinke I saye that this holesome worde shulde be oure poyson and condempnacyon And al be it oure forefathers haue ly ●…ed with out it and receaved all for truth that oure prelates belyes haue imagined yet is not their faute and oures a like although I tan not excuse their ignoraunce but that it is sinne before the face of god for they had not the light of goddes worde opened vnto them Now sith we haue the light declared vnto vs and yet will proceade in blinde ignorauncye and not cō●…rre and examine these iuglinge mistes with the light of goddes worde oure ignoraunce is wilfull and with out excuse Suffer therfore all thinges what so euer they be to be tryed and examined by the scripture If they be true then shall the scripture do them no hurte but stablish and strengthen them for the scripture discloseth nothinge but falsehed and condempneth nothinge but that is damnable And now
abused thesa 〈◊〉 fyces and deceaved the simple people Master More also sayeth that the monye was sent to buye sacrifices which shuld beoffered for the sinne of the slayne Now knoweth everye christen that all maner of sacrifices and offeringes were nothinge but figures of Christ which shuld be offered for the sinne of his people So that when Christ came all sacrifyces ād oblacions ceased If thou shuldest now offer a calfe to purge thy sinne thou were no doubte in iuryous vnto the bloude of Christ for if thou thought his bloude sufficent then woldest thou not seke a nother sacrifyce for thy sinne yee I will go further with you there was not one sacrifice in the olde testament that purged or toke awaye sinne For the bloude of oxen or gootes can not take awaye sinne Hebreorum x. But all the sacrifyces which were then offered did but signefye that Christ shuld come and be made a sacrifyce for vs which shuld purge oure sinne for ever Now were their sacrifices ād oblacions institute of god and yet could they not take awaye sinne But onlye signifyed y t Christ thorow his bloude shulde take it awaye what madnes thē is come in to oure braynes that we thinke that oure oblacyons which are ordeyned but of oure awne imaginacion shuld take awaye sinne Uvhat if Iudas gathered soch an offeringe in the olde testament shuld it then folowe that we must do so to which knowe that Christ is to me and that all oblacyons are ceased in him shall we become Iewes and go backe agayne to the shadowe and ceremonye sith we haue the bodye and signification which is Christ Iesu Be it that Iudas were a holye man might he not yet do amisse Be it in case that he did well shall we therfore streight wayes out of his wor ke grounde an article of oure faith Dauid was an holye man and yet committed ●…e both murther and ad voutrye shall we with out further enserchinge the scriptures streyght wayes folow his example 〈◊〉 was an holye man and was commaunded of god to offer his awne sonne shall we offer oure children therfore Ge dion and Iosua destroyed the vnfaithfull kinges and princes and dyd well and were preysed of god Must we do so to And wherfore shall we more folowe the example of Iud●…s then of the other Shall I tell you whye verelye for this example of Iudas bringeth monye vnto oure spiritualtye These xij thousande drachmas shyne so bright in their yies that with out other candell lantren or spectacles they haue espyed an article of oure faith you maye not cō sidre that they haue taken this texte of xij thou sand drachmas for a pistle in soule masses for then parad venture you might fall in to some sh●…ewed suspeccion that they shuld do it of covetuousnes which faute 〈◊〉 be espied in ou●…e spiritualtye as you know well ynough He y ● holdeth any ceremonye of the lawe as necessarie is bounde to kepe and fulfill the hole lawe This is evident of Paule Gala. 6. where he sayeth If ye be circumcysed then are ye de●… toures to fulfill the hole lawe That is if ye put any confidence in circumcysiō or recounte it as necessarie for 〈◊〉 it is of it silfe neyther good nor evell then make you youre selues bonde vn der the lawe which burthen neyther we nor oure fathers coulde beare and tempte god Act. 15 And this sacrifice of Iudas was but a ceremonye signifyed y t christ shuld with his bloude quench oure sinnes ergo he y t kepeth or counte th this ceremonye as necessarye as are a●… y ● arti cles of y ● faith doth captiu●… him silfevnder y ● lawe tēpteth god to speake nomore sharpelye yet will I go a litle nere vnto you Iudas him silfe beleved not that there was a purgatorye For in the tyme of the olde testament there was no purgatorye as the scolemē graunte thē selues but onlye a place of rest which they called limbus patrum wherfore they are pituous lye deceaved that will prove purgatorye by the t●…xtes of the olde testament sith as they saye thē selves there was no purgatorye at y t tyme. ●…ynallye I can not finde a place that of it silfe more properlye confuteth this phantastical purgatorye thē doth this same texte which they sticke so sore to imageninge that it stablisheth purgatorye The texte sayeth on this maner ex cepte he had hoped that they which were slayne shuld ryse agayne It shuld seme voyed and in vayne to praye for the deed If you fayne a pur gatorye thē must this texte nedes be false for be it in case that the deed shuld not ryse agayne Now saith the texte that it were voyed ād in vayne to praye for the deed if they shuld not ri ●…e agayne But if there were a purgatorye whe rin they shulde be purged and punished in the meane ceason then were it not in vayne to pra ye for them to delyuer them out of that payne but rather verye frutefull and necessarye although they shuld never rise agayne ād therfore if this texte be of auctorite it is impossible y t there shuld be any purgatorye neyther is there any texte that in my iudgement can better vnder mine purgatorye and make it fall Parad venture you desyre to knowe my min de in this place and that I shuld expounde vnto you what Iudas ment in his oblacion sith he thought of no purgatorye as the for sayde texte doth well specefye Uerelye I thinke that Iudas beleued that there shuld be a resurreccion as this texte prayseth him sayenge thinkin ge well and devoutelye of the resurrection For emonge the Iewes there were manye that bele ved not the resurrection of oure flesch ād they that beleved it were yet so rude and ignoraunte that they thought they shuld ryse but to optayne a carnall kingdone and haue their enemies subdued vnder them with out rebelliō And therto sticke the Iewes vnto this daye And it is most like y t this shuld be his meaninge we shal all ryse agayne and possesse this londe in pe ace and these men which are slayne are out of the fauoure of god because they haue cōtrarye to y ● lawe Deut. 7. taken of the Idolles oblacions therfore is it best that we sende a sacrifice vnto Ierusalem to pacefye the wrath of god towardes them lest when they rise agayne the lorde shuld sende some plage amongest vs for theyr transgression which they committed whi le they were here lyvinge If any man can better gesse I am wel contēt to admitte it but this is plaine ynough he thought that this sacrifice could not helpe thē before they shuld rise agayne which doth fullye destroye purgatorye For where he sayeth that it were voyed and in vayne to praye for y ● deed excepte they shuld ryse agayne Is euen as mo●…h to saye vnto him that hath any wytte as that this prayer and
in scripture for so shall he be sure not to sinne thē to beleve for an article of the faith that thin ge which is false in dead for so shulde he surelye sinne and transgresse agenst god and his holye worde And so is there greate perell to beleue a thinge for an article of the faith which is not opened nor spoken of in scripture But if I beleue it not allthough it were true yet is there no right nor lawe that can condemne me Now ma ye you se that to beleue for an article of y e faith that there is a purgatorie sith it can not be pro ved by scripture maye condemne a man make him lye for ever in the paynes of hell where as the tother shulde but a litle lenger lye in the paynes of purgatorye if there were one ād so shall he be sure to catch most harme that beleveth there is a purgatory Savinge sayeth ma ster More that his heresye shall kepe him from thence and sende him doune depe in to hell Before he supposed that it coulde not be proved by scripture And now stondinge the sa 〈◊〉 supposicyon he calleth it an heresye and an heresye is a stiffe holden opinion repugnaunte vnto scripture If purgatorye can not be proved by scripture as he maketh his supposition then can not the contrarye opinion be nepugnaunte to scripture and thus of his awne supposition he doth evell to call it an heresye And where he sayth that his opinion shall sende him doune depe in to hell verelye he steppeth to farre in goddes iudgement to conclude and det●…ne so cruellye ād speciallie in the same ar gument where he supposeth that it can not be proved for if it can not be proved by scripture wherbye will ye cōdemne him so depe that holdeth y ● contrarye forsouth you are a firce iudge god geue you yies to se. ●…inallye if ye pitye any man in payne never knew ye payne comparable to oures whose fire passeth as farre in heate all the fyres that ever burned vppon erth as y ● hotest of all those passeth a fayned fyre paynted on a walle 〈◊〉 emonge all his other poetrye it is re ason that we graunte him this yee and that ou re fyre is but water in comparison to it For I ensure you it hath alone melted more golde and siluer foroure spiritualtyes profite out of poore mennes purses then all the golde smythes fy res with in englonde neyther yet therwith can the raginge heate be aswaged But it melteth castels harde stones londes and tenementes in numerable For all youre sectes of religion mōkes fryres chanons and nunnes with other pre estes regulare and seculare by this fyre multiplication and alcuniye haue obtayned their ho le riches and pleasures evē the swete of englon de And so must we graunte him that this fire is 〈◊〉 hote Now maye you well perceave what a slender fundacion their note purgatorye hath For by this confutacion maye you easilye se that it hath no grounde nor auctorite of scripture Not withstandinge it is the fundacyō of all religiōs and cloysters yee and of all the goodes y t now are in the spiritualtye Are not they wyttye wor kemen which can buylde so moch on so slender a fundaciō How be it they haue made it so top pehevye that it is surelye like to haue a falie Thus hath Master More a full a●…swere both to his scriptures which were to farre wrested out of their places and also to his awne apparent reasons How be it if his mastershippe be not fullye pacyfyed let him more groundlye opē his minde and bringe for his purposse all that he thinketh to make for it and I shall by goddes grace shortlye make him an answere and guyet his minde ☜ ¶ Thus endeth the seconde boke ☜ ¶ The thirde boke which answereth vnto my lorde of Rochestre and declareth the minde of the olde do●…oures NOw will I addresse me to the thirde parte which shalbe an answere vnto my lorde of Rochestre And al his reasons and argumentes both of scriptures and doctures which are not be fore dissolued in the secōde par te will I clene confute by goddes grace in this thirde boke How be it the che fest of his scriptures hath Master More pervsed ād hath in a maner nothinge but that was before writen by my lorde of Rochestre savinge that he maketh the selye soules to pule to helpe his matter with all My lorde of Rochestre is the first patrone and defeudar of this phantasye And even as Master More toke his worke out of my lorde ●…f Rochestres even so plucked Rastell as his boke out of Master Mores My lorde of Rochestre to confirme his sentence rekeneth vpp the doctoures by heape ma ster Johan master Uvyllyam master Thomas et omnes But as concerninge the doctoures y ● they are not so fullye on hys syde as he wolde make them seme is sone proved And where shulde I better beginne to confute him then of his awne wordes for he writeth him silfe vppon the. xviij article on this maner ☞ ☜ ●…Here is no man now a dayes that douteth of purgatorye sayeth he and yet emonge the old auncient fathers was there eyther none or els verye seldome mencyon made of it And also emonge the grecians even vnto this daye is not purgatorye beleved Let him read y t will the commentaryes of the olde grecians and as I suppose he shall finde eyther no worde spokē of it or els verye fewe these are my lordes wordes I wondre what obliuiousnes is comē vppō him that he so cleaveth vnto the doctures whō he affirmed before eyther to make no mencyon of it or els verye seldome Notwithstondinge I will declare you somwhate of the doctures that you maye the better know their meaninge To speake of the doctures and what their minde was in this matter it were necessarye to declare in what tyme they were and what condi cyon the worlde was in in their dayes S. Austyne Ambrose and Nierome were in one tyme even aboute iiij hundred yeare after Christ ād yet before their tyme were there arisen infinite heretikes by hole sectes as the Arryans Domi tians Eunomians vigilācians ●…lagians with infinite other which had so swerved from the truth and wrested the scripture out of frame y ● it was not possible for one man no nor for one mannes age to restore it agayne vnto the true sense Emonge these there were some which not onlye fayned a purgatorye but alsoo dooted so farre that they affirmed that everye man were he never so vicions shulde be saved thorow y t fyre and alleged for them the place of Daule 1. Lorinthiorum iij. These holye doctoures perceyvinge those greate erroures thought it not best by by to condemnne all thinges indifferēt lye But to suffre and dissemble with the lesse that they might wede out the opinions which w●…re most