old which disproue your assertion for all these accord with mee Now to these will I adde also the iudgements of some new Writers Mollerus a very learned Minister of Germany on the 16. Psalme thus teacheth Christ would shew his victorie in a certain sort ouer the Diuells to strike perpetuall terrors in to them and to take away from vs the feare of their tyrānie To this agreeth Musculus on the sixtie and eight Psalme This GOD which was in Christ reconciling the world to himselfe first descended into the lowest partes of the earth then heeled captiuitie captiue and not onely wee are deliuered from the captiuitie of Satan sinne and damnation but al so triumphing ouer them as Tyrants he hath ascended aboue all heauens to fulfill all things The same learned Fathers interpreting the second Chapter of the Colossians thus hath There are some that bee perswaded it is an absurditie if it be sayd that Christ did triumph ouer the principalities and powers but if all chese things be attributed to God the Father that he did them with Christ and in Christ wee may truly reade heere triumphing ouer them in his owne person In like sort doth Hemingius expound this place in the second Chapter of the Colossians As by his death he conflicted with the Diuell on the Crosse so by his glorious descending into Hell Resurrection and Ascension he triumphed as it is Eph. 4. leauing his Crosse lift vp as a monument of his victorie So doth M. Fox vnderstād this place in a booke which he hath written entituled Christus triumphans Therefore in this behalfe you haue tolde a manifest vntruth wherfore I shall thinke you will scarce haue care to set forth the truth of God when you wil presumptuously vtter such an vntruth which may be reproued by so many honorable witnesses Farther here you leaue out at your pleasure two other endes of Christ descēding into Hel which I taught in my Sermon the one is the manifestation of his death the other is our deliuerance from Hell Playne dealing ought to be in this case and therefore I exspect it at your hands HVME his reyoinder If I will let you alone you will neuer afforde mee a good argument I see I must needes frame them my self Augustine and Ierome erring are not to bee praeferred to Calvine and Beza teaching a trueth But Augustine and Ierome doe erre in this controversie Ergo in this controuersie they are not to be praeferred to Calvine and Beza That Calvine and Beza doth teach in this point the truth you can not denie You will say perhapps that it is not the true meaning of the article That is the question But I hope you will not deny but the thing it self is true Now Augustine and Ierome do erre in the very thing it selfe Heere you fumble about an excuse and would faine say something But you had better say nothing then so little to the purpose You thinke that no man will denie but that the fathers had their deliuerie from Hell by Christ so thinke I too But what helps that these mens errour The one held that Christ went to Hell to delyuer the Fathers the other to deliuer whome he himself thought good Will your rotten Vernish hyde this blemish You tell me in the next sect that it doeth little or nothing pertaine to this question The question is about the descending of Christ into hell and this they make the finall end of that action Nowe if you can proue that the finall end hath no pertināce to the thing destinated to it though it bee but a question of arte I will acknowledge you to bee a better D. then you proued your self in Oxon. and a better artist then euer I suspected you to bee though I was reasonablie well perswaded of your skill before you shamed your selfe And yet I would haue you to marke if you can spare so much time as to marke anie thing against your selfe that this is a very materiall point in this question For this final end doth separate these mens opinion and yours They send Christ to hell to deliuer the Fathers and you send him to the hell of the damned where the Fathers neuer were They are so farre from you that Ierome saieth it is impium dicere Christum descendisse ad inferos locum damnatorum You spend the moste of this section to proue mee a liar If you could you might discredite mee but not the cause But I will crack this nut on yonr owne crowne Frst I said not that none of the Fathers denied that which you say I onlie saide that neither Augustine nor Ierome did send Christ to hell to triumph Secondly if I had said so I had said trulie For you send Christ to the hell of the damned and that none of them euer deemed Therfore in this behalf to vse your owne words you haue tolde a manifest vntruth of mee You father that on mee which I neuer saide and accuse mee for saying that which I might well avouche And heere I must put you in minde that if you will joyne with all or the most of them that you call forth to take your parte in this quarrell you must hyre workemen to repaire the ruinous walles of Limbus patrum that you haue shaken so sore and shiuered your self heer-to-fore with the mightie shot of Gods aeternall word HVME sect 4. VVHo so will see howe vncertaine Augustine was in this point let him reade his 99. Epistle to Evodius There shal he finde manie doubtes and almost nothing affirmed for certaintie but onlie that hee doubted not that Christ went to hell building on the words of Dauid cited by Peter Act. 2. Thou wilt not leaue my soule in hell c. Where I cannot chuse but muse what should moue so worthie a wit and such followers of him seeing it is apparant in the scripture that the original word doth signify as well the panges as the place of hell to passe by that signification which the whole church of Christ confesseth to be true and fall vpon that which hauing so weake proof had so great straites as Augustines deepe wit could not vnfolde Who so will see the name of hell vsed in the Scriptures for the sorrowes of Hell let him reade that of 1. Samuel 2. 6. The Lord killeth and maketh aliue he casteth downe to hell and bringeth vp againe or that of Dauid Psal 30. 3. Thou hast brought my soule out of Hell Or that of Ionas 2. 2. I haue called to thee out of the bottom of Hell And manie such like places where that word cannot signifie the pit of Hell whence there is no redemption but the hellish sorrowes which those Saints of God did suffer in this life Now seing this is so I wold fain knowe of you good M. Hill why wee may not more safelie take the name of Hel in that sense which you cannot denie then you in that which the better
and bodie 79 Salomon speaketh not there of the sonne of god see the text 80 A wrong inference 81 A fond coÌ„parison without warrant of the text 82 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 For this is vnderstood of his desceÌ„ding into his humaine state being the son of God a thing as wonderfull as his descending into hell 83 This thing is true but wher alledge I it 84 It followes not see the answere 85 What makes this to the expounding of this place Father into thy haÌ„ds c. or answering anything that I haue said heere 86 What makes this to the expounding of this place Father into thy haÌ„ds c. or answering anything that I haue said heere 87 Hee saieth not the hell of the damned He speaketh of his buriall 88 he meanâ—â—h the conditioÌ„ of death He vanquished not death in hell 89 This conclusion followeth not on the cited place 90 You conclude as stout lie as if all things were without dout 91 Not by descending to the hell of the damned He performed that on the Crosse 92 I know not whereof you speakâ— if you meane these wordes wheron we stand Father into thy c. If they be not true in the figure theÌ„ erre you that giue them the same sense in Christes mouth 93 Who doth now peece the text quoâ— the wordes if you caÌ„ 94 He coÌ„quered the Diuels on the crosse not in Hâ—ll 95 No les then blasphemie 96 where say I so 97 what if I did excepting innocencie it had no other prerogatiue that I knowe 98 To the locall hell I see not but I see that you quote him to proue that Christes bodie hath greater praerogatiue then Dauids which thing he saith not 99 So did he on the crosse 100 Where M. Doctor sclaunder fye for shame 101 This is contrarie to the scriptures Heb. 2. 17 4 14. 102 why then did he not likewise commend his bodie into the hands of God 103 It is not in that place set for the sonne of God see the place 104 Heere is a heap of notable ignorance Hath the hand as manie significations as it can be applyed to vses If not heere is od stuffe if yea he ere is not half a handfull of hands 105 If this be last at which of all these hands sits Christ but that is a right hand perhappes these be left handes 106 If so then tell mee why he kept that praier to his last gasp which might haue had mor vse in the troblesome daies of his life 107 That I do my body to but the case is not like 108 Are you sure of that then let vs heare your proofes 109 Petitio principij plus quam crambe odiosa 110 Wher maÌ„ I haue said that the deity presented the triumph of Christs victorie to heauen earth hell at once That the Deitie descended into Hell to my knowledge I neuer saide 111 Petitio principij againe 112 What say you to Christ then He said that he would bee that day as he suffered in Paradice is he no bodie with you 113 If euer Procustes had a prentise you serued your yeares in his occupation who made Peter say that Christ was in Hel not tormeÌ„ted c. 114 I neuer sowed that patch to the text see the answer 115 Blasphemous speches and yet nothing but misbegotten insinuations This geare hangs well together 116 For all your cunning my words are cleare 117 Petitio principij â—is hic millies a libi repetita 118 Petitio principij â—is hic millies a libi repetita 119 Two imperpent allegations 120 Two imperpent allegations 121 TheÌ„ there goes a bargan If you wil not proue the one I promise you I will neuer proue the other But til then let this Syllogisme stand for good You caÌ„ not proue that he that commeÌ„ds hiâ— soule into the hands of god meaneth to go to hell but Christ commended his soule into the hands of God Ergo you cannot proue that Christ ment to go to Hell 122 Yet againe Deus bone quoties 123 Two impertinent allegations 124 What makes that to the question heere in hand 125 Speak to the purpose man That is called potentiall which being is not impossible neuer was indeed Great is the truth and invincible The Paralogismes in the D. reply 126 You sclaÌ„der I falsefie not the text 127 Not the originall 128 Not so but I traÌ„slate a word Maister that signisieth master rather then Lord. 129 If a man may leaue a thing that he neuer began I will graunt your fute 130 He is him self worthie to be beaten that can beat a boy for that fault 131 Such a controuller were scarse worthie to beare office in a hen-hous 132 A doughty argument then was I be holden to your printer that wrote the word which I vsed for it with a capitall M. 133 It is a weake boaste that will bee so beate with a capitall K. 134 How well you confirm it see the answere 135 You promise to proue your purpose by Aristotle and leaue your purpose to proue that you bring out of Aristotle 136 This proueth not that they moue not They rest from their labors that is their mouing is not laborious It will be hard for you to proue that the Angels and blessed soules moue no more then the meruelous stones vpon the plaine of Salisburie 137 This therefore dependeth not vpon the premisles 138 If I did so suppose I wer as farre from sense as you from honestie in charging mee with a senslesse assertion which you neuer heard from my mouth nor read after my pen. 139 This allegation is impertinent time was not ended when Christ said to the theefe This day c. 140 All these manie scriptures are but the repetitioÌ„s of one prophecy out of the 2. Psalme 141 Heer this day doth not signifie aeternity see the answere 142 Heer this day doth not signifie aeternity see the answere 142 Heer this day doth not signifie aeternity see the answere 144 Heer this day doth not signifie aeternity see the answere 145 Vntruth they take it not so 146 The place would be quoted 147 Not very strongly 148 implicite not explicite 149 This circumstance is farfet 150 implicite not explicite 151 This circumstance is far fet 152 implicite 153 This circumstance is far fet 154 This is not denied 155 This needed no proof 156 This proof is super fluous 157 This circumstanceis far fet 158 Frame one good syllogisme out of al these circumstances to proue that to day doth heer signifie aeternity take the bucklers 159 But not that the day when it was giuen doth signifie aeternity 160 Haue al the Fathers written vpon this place you range wide 161 This place hath not that with me doth signifie the deity 162 Wil not Ierome speak plainelie this collectioÌ„ hath in it three paralogismes 1. Ieromes simile of the fact you refer to the person Secondlie you seeme to think
verie likelie Secondlie that you ment not to defend M. Chalfonts opinion will hardlie be beleeued except you can perswade the audieÌ„ce that you ment one thing and did an other Thirdlie that you gaue vp your sermon to M. Wisedome in wriring M. Wisedome can tel that it is not true Hee had nothing of you but a few scribled disordered notes The last is cunninger that I answered not the whole but some part of your sermon That which escaped without answere was so small a part that the rest might well haue bene called the whole if you had not bene disposed to abuse the simplicitie of your reader That the matter then in controversie was staied before in Sarum by the Bishop was true but in such sort that if you had not bene more busie then your commission it might haue stand more with your credite to haue let Chippenham alone For you were there injoined by the Bish two Iustices of the peace to confesse that M. Connam his opinion who was then your adversary was pia vera senteÌ„tia Whether you came to make peace amongst your brethren and not to warre against M. Wisedome I referre it to the audience peace-makers vse not to take parts Your peace did so little please M. Wisdome for as much as you honor him that beeing denied the pulpit at Chippenham by Chalfont contrarie to the order he was driuen to take Cosham church not far distant to defend the truth against you and your mate which thing he performed with great meekenesse and humilitie after his maner to the comforte of all that heard him the aedifying of them that were desirous to know the trueth These things if I were disposed to go to Tennis with you would sound more lie like then all the lies you haue flung at me But you are a Doctor and that were vn-manerlie Yet saving your worship you keepe not so good a watche through this worke as it becums such a lie-catcher Wherefore to conclude where you say that I accuse you of wit eloquence onelie denie the action and I will let fall my suâ—e But as for your promise I will neuer let goe my holde because I hope you will proue a man of your word HVME his 2. Sect. Nowe to come to the matter I see no cause why you should thinke better of Augnstine and Ierome then of Caluin and Beza for they were all but men and they which now are olde were sometimes new They had no better warrant of Gods spirit then these and errors in those dayes were so thicke sowen that there grewe darnell in the best fieldes euen of them whome now we most admire I speake not this to descredit the Fathers but to proue that they were no Gods They were no dout his good instruments to maintaine his truth against his enemies but they wer but meÌ„ you can not denie but the best of them had his steynes This no doubt was the forepurposed worke of gods infinite wisdom that seeing these infirmities our fond age might not set their writings in the place of his eternall word wherof one iote shal not passe though heauen and earth perish HILL his reply TWo argumentes you make against Augustine and Ierome The one is they had errors and therfore their interpretation not to be admitted The other is the time wherein they liued was corrupt and for that cause they are not to be alledged in a controuersy of Diuinitie The same argument I make against all new writers All new writers haue errors and they liue in a most corrupt time wherein as Christ saith shall bee many fals prophets many fals Christs to deceiue the very elect if it were posible Math. 24. 24. Therfore because men are vaine the time corrupt wee must beleue no man You argue ab accidente ad subiectuÌ„ For Augustine Ierome to erre it is an accident but the substance of all Fathers is to beget men in the word of truth 1. Cor. 4. 15. And for this cause Augustine himselfe willeth vs not to beleeue him vnlesse hee bring the word of God Truly sayth Augustine I do desire not onlie a godlie reader but a free corrector in all my writings especially in those things where there is great doubt but as I will not haue him to be giuen vnto mee so I will not haue him to be giuen to himself let him not loue mee more then the Catholike faith As I say to him beleue not my sayings as Canonical scriptures but beleue stedfastly wheÌ„ thou hast found that which thou beleuedst not but beleue not firmly that which thou hast not seene out of Gods worde So I say to him do not correct my writings by thine owne opinion or of contention but by the word of God by the reason therof vncontrouleable And against Cresconius the Grammarian hee thus writeth lib. 2. cap. 32. I am not moued with the authority of this Epistle but I consider theÌ„ out of the Canonical books and if they agree with the worde of God I receiue them with prayse if they disagre I refuse them with peace The like he hath Epist 3. Epist 112. And Ierome ad Theoph. is of the same iudgment I know that I esteeme otherwise the Apostles and otherwise other interpreters these men speak truth alwayes these men in some things do erre somtime These Fathers themselues confes themselues to be but meÌ„ wil vs to beleeue theÌ„ no farther theÌ„ they agree with Gods word Therfore they building vpoÌ„ Christ aswell as your newe ought to be beleeued rather in this point then they For what they wrote in this controuersy the same did all other godly Interpreters both Greek and Latin hauing a good warrant from Gods word But those of your side write contrary to Gods word to the auncient Fathers yea and contrarie to the new Fathers namly Luther Selueccer Chytraeus Pomeran Aepinus Lucas Lossius Alesius Aretius Peter Martyr M. Fox and M. Nowel Therefore because Augustine and Ierome agree both with the old and new writers especially with the worde of God I like better of them teaching the affirmatiue then of any other labouring to proue the negatiue To end therefore you must note this that all sayings of the Fathers either they are demonstratiue out of the scriptures then they are the voyce of God or else probable and these are the voyce of man or else false and then they are the voice of the Serpent HVME his reioynder to the 2. sect YOu make my argâ—ments as pleaseth you If wee had no better then you would affoorde vs wee were vnworthie of credite and worthie of your reproches First you alter the conclusion I neuer thoght said or wrote that their interpretations are not to bee admitted nor their sayings alledged in a controversie of Divinity Neither write I against theÌ„ except
that spoake breake Now heere beholding the maior and the minor two brasen vnbreakable walles you set all your teeth on the poore conclusion to pull it from them To take this place of this Psalme quite from vs you alledge the holie Ghost and Peter two sufficient witnesses because they referre this place to the resurrection and we to the passion Allace good Doctor vbiacumen tuum Doe not you see man that though the negatiue Thou wilt not leaue my soule in hell pertaineth to the resurrection yet the affirmatiue that his soule was in hell may pertaine to his passion Peter alledgeth the negatiue in the Psal to proue his resurrection and our question is not whether hee rose againe or not but whether the thing wherein he was is to bee taken for the place or the panges of hell And heere I muste needes confesse that this consideration hath driuen mee quite from Calvine whome in this place I first followed As for the place of the beleefe I am perswaded that his sense is moste agreable beeing godlie consonant to the Scriptures necessarie for the perfection of the creede not repugnant to the circumstances thereof and moste comfortable to a Christian conscience But in this place of this Psal now I see that Olevians opinion is truer more consonant to the rest of the text and more plaine against your drousie dreame Wherfore now I am perswaded that SHEOL is heer set for the state of the dead and my soule for mee as it is Psal 3. 2. Manie say to my soule that is to mee And Psal 7. 2. Least hee devoure my sonle lyke a Lyon that is mee And Psal 6. 3. My soule is sore troubled that is I am sore troubled So the sense must bee Thou wilt not leaue my soule in Hell that is mee amongest the deade That this must needes bee the true sense heereof I haue two reasons First that this was the SHEOL wherein Christes soule was not left whence hee rose againe as may appeare by this allegation of Peter But hee rose again from the graue and condition of the deade not from hell and condition of the damned Ergo the SHEOL wherein Christs soule was not left is the condition of the dead and not the place of the damned The answere here that he rose in soule and body the one from hell and the other from the graue will not holde for the name of resurrection belongeth onelie to the bodie because nothing ryseth againe but that which death laide downe So hath our beleefe the resurrection of the bodie not the resurrection of the soule This was M. Fieldes argument which did choake you in the act at Oxonford and hang so fast in your teeth that hee coulde not get it out of your mouth much lesse an answere to it The other is builded vpon the wordes of Peter Act. 2. 19. Men and brethren I may boldlie speake to you of the patriarch Dauid that hee is dead and buried and his sepulchre is amongest vs to this day In which wordes expounding this place of the Psalme Thou wilt not leaue my soule in hell nor suffer thy holie one to see corruption hee laboureth to proue that Dauid spake not this of himselfe but of the Messias that was to come of his loines His reason is because Dauid is deade and buried and his sepulchre remained amongest them as if he had said because Dauids soule was left in Hell and saw corruption For where the negatiue is not true there the affirmatiue muste bee true by the rule of contradiction Wherevpon thus I reason Dauids soule that is Dauid himself as I haue said before was left in the SHEOL wherin Christs soule should not be left But Dauids soule was left in the state and condition of death Ergo it was the state and condition of death wherein Christes soule was not left by this place The same argument may bee formed negatiuelie to take away your exposition of this place Dauids soule was left in the SHEOL wherof it is said in the Psalme Thou wilt not leaue my soule in Hell nor suffer thy holie one to see corruption But Dauids soule was not left in the place of the damned Ergo it is not the place of the damned whereof it is said in the Psalme Thou wilt not leaue my soule in hell nor suffer thy holie one to see corruption Wheras some alledge against this interpretation that it doeth violate the text taking the soule first for the whole man the whole againe for the bodie Let them consider that the condition of the dead expressed heere in the name of SHEOL pertaineth not to the body only but to the whole man Neither were it injurie to the text if it be so taken For the cup is set for wine and wine for the blood of Christ by Paull himself who vseth not to violate wordes These reasons therefore haue led mee from Calvine whome though I reuerence as he is well worthie as much as anie man yet I am not so maried to him howsoeuer M. Doct. is perswaded otherwise to folloâ—e him the bredth of a haire beyond truth and reason Hee may bee deceaued aswell as others though he hath plunged through manie deepes that haue devoured manie Nowe to returne againe and to followe vpon your walke you charge mee heere as euerie where with an vntruth To fasten it vpon mee you turne my wordes out of their figured coate into their bare skinne For whereas I say that Christ suffered the whole tormentes of hell vpon the crosse taking the drosse by a Synecdoche for the whole passion as he did before mee which said God forbid that I delight in any thing but in the crosse of Christ The preaching of the crosse is to manie foolishnes Christ reconciled vs to God by his Crosse You tell mee that it is most vntrue because he did not suffer his whole torments on the wodden Crosse which Symon the Cyrenian did beare on his backe And to make my wordes more odious you do them more injurie For whereas I say hee suffered the whole tormentes of Hell on the Crosse a thing defend-able you charge mee as saying he suffered all his torments vpon the Crosse meaning the Crosse of wood a thing without shewe of truth In the ende to fasten another little faulte on me it is but blasphemie you wring my last wordes in the fame presse For whereas I say that a word of double signification standeth at the courtesie of the reader to be taken as shall seeme most probable meaning that there is nothing in the word it self to lead the mynde to one signification more then another but depends vpon the probable circumstances and drift of the text you charge mee as making the Scriptures like a nose of waxe to bee set which way mens fantasie will bend it a thing as farre out of my penne as out of my heart and as far out of my heart as it is out of your heart to take my
the soule of Christ were in heauen vntill his resurrection then could not these words of Christ bee true Iohn 20. 17. Touch me not for I haue not yet ascended vnto my father for it is the preter-perfect tense 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Therefore as this is vntrue to say that Abraham is not in heauen because his body was not in heauen so this is false to say Christ was not in heauen because his body was not in heauen Our body is gouerned by the soule and man taketh his appellation of a reasonable creature not of the body but of the soule and therefore if Christs soule went vp to heauen as you say this cannot be true I haue not yet ascended to my father Besides if Christs soule went first to heauen and afterward his soule and body togither then were there 2. ascensions proue this and I will geue you the goale You dally also with my argument in this manner The whole race of mankind is not in England ergo there is no men in England Do you think there is no more union betwixt Christ and his soule then betwene all the men of the world then by this reason the body and the soule of Christ were neuer vnited together Your next resemblance is this Edmund Campions whole body is not ouer Newgate Ergo no part of him Heere is a foule error to thinke Christs soule to be an integral or diuisible part which is ane essential or indiuisible for by your reason Christs soule is mortal may perish as the integral parts of CampioÌ„ doth You vtter also an other error in these words the whol man Christ for the whol man doth not make Christ but God and man as you may see in Athanasius Creede As the reasonable soule and flesh is one man So god and man is one Christ I will ende therefore with this saying of Irynaeus who liued vnder Marcus Antonius in the yeare of our Lord god 125 which thus proueth the descending of Christ into hell For the writing against Heretiques that said hel was in this world as many doo now a dayes thus reproueth them in his fift book and last chapter As Ionas taried in the whales belly three dayes and three nights so shall the Sonne of man bee in the hart of the earth And the Apostle saith what is it that he ascended but that he first descended into the lowest partes of the earth and Dauid prophecying of this sayd Thou hast deliuered my soule from the nethermost hel and rising again the third day he sayd to Mary which he sawe first and worshipped him Touch me not for I haue not yet asscended to my Father but go to my Disciples and tel them I will go to my Father and to your Father If then the Lord keep the law of the dead that he might be the first begotten of the dead how are they ashamed that say hell is in this world Thus you see it is no strange thing to see this scripture alleadged to proue that Christs soule was not in heauen vntil his visible and glorious ascention Irenaeus a man of more learning and iudgement then I am of alleaged it to the same end aboue 1300. years ago and then it was accompted a currant argument among the learned HVME his reioynder to the 11. sect HEere before you will buckle with this section you thrust for-ward your invincible Goliah as you suppose and will haue him make an end of this battell You say that neither I nor anie of my freends dare meet him You thought so because amongst all his fellowes I mist him onelie But you are deceaued of his valour He hid himself amongst the slaine heapes of his fellowes If I had seene his creast I had seauen stones in a scrip the least wherof was big inâ—â—gh to beat his braine through his helmet The place is in the 17. of Eccles I neede not repeat the wordes First I could haue tolde you that the booke is not Canonicall Secondlie that it was not written in the tongue on the property whereof you build your argument Thirdly that these words the lowermost parts of the earth be not in the originall wherein this book was first written and therfore haue gotten Tom Drummes intertainment by the Geneua translatours lunius Vatablus and divers others Fourthlie that though it had pleased Iesus the sonne of Syrach to cal Hell by that name it will not follow that all other men did vse the worde so Fiftly that you could finde those words in that sense in some place of the Canonicall Scriptures which indeede you cannot it will not follow that whersoeuer wee meete with them they must haue the same signification except the necessarie circumstances doe approue or inforce it Sixtlie that seeing that place is spoken of the mercifull them whose good deedes the Lord doth keep as the aple of his eie it were a bad reward for men whose good deedes are so precious in the Lordes eies to bee casten into the dungeon of Hell Seventhlie and lastlie that seeing the common translator who foisteth in those words doth make it the reward of euery man to be cast into the lowermost parts of the earth it wil passe your skill to proue that euerie man shall be cast into hel The note in the margent of the 25. 35. of Math. helpeth not you but prooueth the contrarie that this place pertaineth to them that giue meat to the hungrie drinke to the thirstie and clothes to the naked c. Thus you may see that this champion is not so strong as you take him and that the note in the margent whosoeuer made it helpeth you like ale in your shoes You tell mee that nowe I am come to my schoole-points which in you I called Sophistrie The true maximes and rules of art sucked out of the marrowes of nature I neuer called Sophistrie in you nor no man else Your shrimpish reasons set out in the painted coates of blased words and confidentlie commended to the beholders without al bounds of modestie I haue called them what I haue called them and not so ill as they deserue My rule which you say were sophistrie if you vsed it as I doe you confesse it to be true in integrall parts Nowe say I the soule and the bodie be integrall parts of a man Ergo by your owne confession my rule is true of the soule and the bodie But if you had taken my maxime right you should haue found it hold in all parts whatsoeuer For I meant that a particular negatiue of the whole is not good to bring in a negatiue of anie particular part All Campion hangeth not ouer New-gate importeth that some part of him haÌ„geth there And all men bee not in England importeth that there be some men there which bee particular negatiues expressed in generall tearmes as non omris and nonnullns
It was the improbabilitie of your opinion that droue a man of so much judgement as Erasmus was to make that doubt But Carlill and Servetus you say do denie it In your printed sermon as you call it you lay your malice more open There you alledge for this antiquitie joined with veritie so there you call your owne opinion all the learned of all ages old and new all the Prophetes and Apostles and sybilles of the heathen all the creatures in heauen earth liuing and dead and lastlie all the Divels thēselues Onelie some possessed you say with Divels as the Iewes Seruetus and Carlill denie it Heere you vtter your choller more plainelie challenging to your owne side all the learned of all ages olde and newe and leauing nothing to your aduersaries but block-isme dol-tisme and diuelish giddinesse But God bee thanked you haue not the disposing of gifts and spirits There be men that denyes your opinion to haue anie ground in the word as farre excelling you in all kindes of learning as you count your self before Sir Thomas your Curat at Goosage and of such zeale and constancy in Gods cause with out regard of wordlie preferments as I pray God a man that can holde two benefices and would haue seauen if he could get them might mend that fault and shew himself as farre from Diuelish giddinesse as they As for Servetus I neuer saw his book which Calvine in his Epistles doth say was printed at Vienna But this I know that he held many grosse errors concerning the Trinitie Humanitie and Deitie of Christ as it is apparent in an Epistle written by the Ministers of Basil to the Syndicks and senate of Geneva As for this question I know not what he held but it is not likelie that euer he touched it And this I am sure of that he was burned by the greatest favorites of our opinion I meane the Genevites Carlill excepting his fault was a man for judgement and learning manie degrees before your self He made a slip indeede as who hath not Though you throwe the first stone at him you are not cleare your self Besides the mani-slips made in this book and other pulpits also you taught on S. Iames his day in Trubridge Anno 1591. If I do wel remember the yeare that weomen did beare children without pain in time of innocencie And because you would be sure not to be mistaken you did repeate it in the after noone in the same tearmes that you spake it in the fore-noone a fault of lesse judgement and learning then Carlils was The Iewes bee enemies to our faith and therefore doe not meete with vs nor acknowledge the truth that we do holde in this article As for the place that they take from you in the Hebrew Psalme and wherupon your choller doth rise I see no cause why they are not to bee beleeued in their owne tougue before all others that haue learned that tongue of them Their opinion of those words if they be taken right doth impeach Christs passion not so much as your own what euer it pleaseth you and Aepinus to dreame and suspect without cause and matter But vpon the Iewes the enemies of our faith Servetus an Hereticke with Carlill whome for his fault not so foule as your owne you boldlie and peremptorlie tearme possessed with a Diuell in this place you would faine lay the firste broaching of our opinion to deceaue the simple I hope you will leaue this craft one day Howsoeuer you may purchesse a plause amongest the ignorant the wise and learned will hisse you out of the schooles if you runne this course as you haue begunne HVME his 17. Sect. THey say that you preached the same at Leycock condemning all men that dissent from you of furie and madnesse as men fighting against the holie Ghost and spurning at a doctrine so profitable so godlie so wholesome and so full of all comfort and solace Heere M. Hill I appeale to your owne conscience what profite what commoditie what health safetie or solace is in your opinion that ours compriseth not Seeing our whole solace and safetie comfort and commoditie consisteth in this that we vnderstand that Christ God and man hath takē vpon him our curse and paying a full ransome for our sinnes vpon the Crosse hath reconciled vs to the loue of his Farher which we had loste by our Father Adam that nowe wee assure our selues of heauen without all feare of Hell What either comfort or commoditie can the sending of Christ into a place where ther was left no comfort nor commoditye adde to this so perfite and full a joy All good men are sorie that you carrying the commendation of zeale and learning haue joined your selfe with M. Chalfont who enterprised this matter so vnaduisedly to say no worse and hath almost shaken the foundation of the Church which God forbid with a dangerous division Your side I confesse hath manie great defendants which doe rather speake for you then confirme your opinion either with scripture or reason I was my self of your opinion till the sway of truth which I haue alwaies rather followed then mine owne fantasies did carie mee to the contrarie I am perswaded that manie of your authors if they had heard the reasons that you heare would neuer haue said as you doe But because the ignorant may not think that you haue all the world on your side Whether you regarde the nomber or the excellencie of the men our cause is nothing inferiour to yours As for M. Wisedome if he had erred it had beene more Christian-like to haue confuted him by priuate conference But seeing his doctrine hath the consent of most of the learned of our times and is so fortressed with Scripture and reason as heere you see it wanteth all excuse of modestie to handle him in open audience before such a multitude in such sort as M. Chalfont did and you confirmed in action though not in words For my part I am and will be on his side till I heere better reason from you Which when it commeth it shal carie me to anie truth that you can proue Further I wil not wagge the bredth of a naile If you can plainelie without cloak and colour confute my reasons and confirm your owne I promise you to turne my song If otherwaies I hope you will bee as good as that word which you past in the pulpite before so manie witnesses If you will satisfie mee you must answere me by writing For spoken words passe faster away then my dull senses can digest the reasons I wrote this in Latine because I wold not haue it vnderstood of the common sort I translated it into Englishe at the sute of a Gentleman that lay heer the last spring That copie by some negligence went farther abroad then I was willing I left it with a freend or two to deliuer it to you when I went in Scotland They conferring together delayed it till my returne least I
haue taught the trueth let not Hume nor Hill iudge but the learned of the â—niversiâ—ies For as Paule saith 1. Cor. 14. 32. The spirits of the Prophets are subject to the Prophetes That is the labors of the learned men are to be iudged of the learned The God of patience and consolation giue vs grace that we may be like minded one towards another according to Christ Iesus that we may with one minde one mouth glorifie God the Father of our Lord Iesus Christ Rom. 14. 5. 6. To whome bee all honour glorie world without end Amen An answere to the conclusion IF you had been the man that you protested in the pulpite and I promised my selfe when I wrote there was good hope that my answere might haue pleased you as wel as mee But now I see it impossible to please you except I could sing your song And truelie M. D. I could sing your song as soone as anie mans if it did tune as wel with the concent of scriptures as other mens doe But now you must pardon me I am too old to learn your discords The things in my answere which I hoped might haue wrought it favour with you was truth and reason But nowe I see the one is a stranger with you and the other a guest at will If they had beene of that account in your studie and so familiar with you as I hoped my poore answere had not found such hard handling nor vnreasonable railing there as it did You sent it home so ragged rent and torne that it coste mee a moneths work in the cold winter to mend his coat Now I haue quilted it better sent it to you once againe to challenge your promise and to tell you that your plaine reasons heere set downe why you could not recant are nullified and made of none effect like an obligation that is paied at the day appointed Wherefore seeing your argument drawne from the Act. 2. is answered sect 4. and sect 7. And seeing your place out of Syrach is 7. waies defaced sect 11. And seeing I haue proued my consent with the Scriptures in euerie place where I met with that accusation And seeing our sense of the 16. Psalm agreeth with Peter as wel as yours sect 7. And seeing in my answere to Psal 63. I dissent neither from David nor Calvine sect 8. And seeing in my answere to the place of Ezechiel I dissent neither from him nor Esay sect 9. And seeing I haue proued by the worde spirit that men living in the fleshe are not signified sect 12. And seeing now I haue set down your words according to your owne request and seeing your sermon at Chippenhame and this anwsere also hath confirmed mee and seeing mine own answere doth noâ— offer me nor anie of my freends sufficient cause to recant I hope now you are satisfied and that you will satisfie me and the populous congregation to whome you made your solemne promise of recantation in the pulpite at Chippenhame It was not a place to dissemble in and therefore let vs see that you meant as you spake The Lord giue you a hart pliable to his truth ANd heere to end as if M. D. had set the bent of his wit to shewe the vanitie of his worke he maketh the vainest bragge that euer grewe in a vaine heade There was good Reader if thou knowe it not one Ovid of all vaine poets the vainest Amongest manie filthie and vaine workes he wrote a book entituled Metamorphosis In it he sets the edge of all his wits which he had as sharp as euer had anie Poet to the painting of lies in all coloures wherein he shot so neare the marke that in comparison of it the lying legend commes not neere the whetstone by as manie myles as there be wordes in them both The conclusion of this worthie worke M. D. hath pasted to his hel as most agreable to that argument Iamque opus exegi quod nec Iouis ira nec ignis Nec potâ—rit ferrum nec edax abolere vetustas In which Ovid looking back into the worke of his owne wit grew into such loue with the finenesse of his owne conceits that he doubted not to deâ—ie his owne imagined God Iuppiter Now that thou mightest see gentle reader that M. Doctor did thinke of his owne worke as well as Ovid coulde of his hee brusteth out in the same brag In which if he meane Ovids Idole by this Iuppiter it is heathnishe if the true God it is Hellishe That they that vnderstand not the latine may vnderstand it I haue thought not amisse to englishe it as neere the words as I can keeping the english meeter I haue at length made vp this work Which Iuppiter in raging fume With me with fire with edged sworde And cankering age cannot consume To it I may well answere out of another Poet. Quid dignum tanto fert hic promissor hiatis Parturiunt montes nascetur ridiculus mus That is What hath this vaunting bragger done Worth gaping mouth and lips so wide The groning Hill is brought a bed And out a sillie mous doth slide Huic latino carmine sic respondero Nondum est exactum ludit tua gloria ventos Ad sat a licta redi I am renovatur opus In cineres fumosque tui rediere labores Quod louis ignis agit quod Iovis irae facit Aliud Dicere sibellum mireris tartara coelo Foedera Dis stygius cum Ioue nulla colit Aliud Christum post stygios in tristi morte dolores Contendit stygias Hillus adisse domos Complexus vano nugas tricasque libello Provocat insanus tela manumque Iovis Errat fi tutum Iovis ira acheronta putarit Non coquit aeternis iguibus ille stygem FINIS CERTAINE PLACES QVOted out of Master Doctors owne Authours vpon the three principal places where-upon he buildeth this his opinion wherein thou maist see gentle Reader how small cause hee hath to bragge of so many old and new writers I leaning altogether on the word of trueth haue not qâ—â—ted them in the treatise it selfe counting them vnsufficient witnesses in such a cause wherein they haue neither reveilâ—d nor experimented knowledg yet because I would not defraud theâ— of their judgments I haue thought good to set them downe heere The first place is thou vvouldest not leaue my soule in 〈◊〉 nor suffer thy holy one to see corruption vvhere M. Dâ—ctâ—r takes 〈◊〉 to be hell vve the generall condition of them vvhich are departed this life MOLERVS caeterum movent hic questionemâ—â— descensu Christi ad inferos quaÌ„ prudens omitto cum ex hoc lâ—co id satis certo evinci non possit Felinu non deseres ammam meâ—Ì„sepuâ—â—hro id est non destitues me vt anima mea morti concedat Per sheâ—l enim quod sepulchrum significat vt in Psal 6. vers 6. d. xâ— statum conâ—â—tionem mortuorum hoc est inferos scriptâ—ra transnominare
solet Muse Ius non derelinques animam meam in sepulchro nec dabiâ— saâ—ctum tuum videre corruptionem quasi dicat tam certus sum maâ—surum me perpetuo vt vbi etiam mortuus fuero in mâ—rteta men detineri nequeam ideo quod c. Hemingius on thi psalme saith Vis verborum hunc sensum vt à Petro docemur suppeditat non derelinques id est non sines animam meam id est me in inferno id est sepulchro permanere Pomeranus Quoniam non derelinques animam meam id est vitam meam in inferno id est in morte Christus non solum pro nobis mortuus est sed etiam voluit pro nobis alâ— quantisper id est vsque in tertium dieÌ„ descendere ad tenebras tartareas vbi est imago mortis sicut Iob dicit sempiternus horror absque vllâ—ordine hoâ— est voluit tam diu in morte teneri ad quam nos eramus in Adam damnati sic Ioseph de morte sua loquitur Gen. 37. descendam ad filium meum lugens in sheol These be fiue of M. Doctors principall Authors all agreeing vvith vs and contrary to himselfe these that follovve indeed dissent from vs and agree not vvith him on the meaning of this place Aepinus the great superintendent of Hamborough as he calleth him on this place saith Veteres ex scripturis respondent diversaâ— apâ—d inferos mansiones fuisse beatasque animas à corpore separatas ante Christi ascensioâ—em neque in terris mansisse neque hinc ad superos in coelum migrasse sed descendisse ad infernum huic sententiae suffragetur Ecclesiae Caâ—hâ—licae consensus accedat scripturae sacrae autoritas retinebâ— hanc sententiam donec certior scripturae interpretatio adferatur haec manifestis scripturae testimonijs confuretur Peter Marâ—yr in his common places holdeth the same in a manner Et vero vna atque altera tum piorum spirituum tum eorum qui damnati esseâ—t societas Christi praesentiam persensit Etenim fidelium spirituum qâ—i in locâ— tranquillo quiesâ—â—bant qui sinus Abrahae apposite dicitur vt cum sancto illo Patriarcha eadem fide praediti exâ—ectarent salutem per Christum qua ab Abrahamo denominabantur spiritus inqâ—am 〈◊〉 magna consolatione exhilarati sunt Egeruntque Deo optimo maximo gratias c. Lossius on this place saith Christus ad inferos vere post mortem descendit ne nos ad eos descendamus 2. vt inde Patriarchas vt vetus credidit ecclesiae secum abduceret cum quibus postea cum triumphâ— in coâ—lum ascendit These three holdeth that the Fathers vvere in hell though Martyâ— dare not giue it that name but calles it a place of rest and the bosome of Abraham all vvhich M. Doctor denieth Luther on this place tomo 3. of his workes Sicut Christus cum summo dolore mortuus estâ—ta videtur dolores in inferno post mortem sustinuisse vt nobis omnia superaret Ita ego interea verbis Petri inhaerebo donec meliora doctus fuero To him agreeth Latimer in his Sermons And these two holde that he suffered in hell which Master Doctor denieth The second place is in the 4. Ephes verse 9. but that he ascended vvhat is it but that he first desceÌ„ded into the lovvermost parts of the earth Hemingius on this place saith Porro qui ex hoc loco descensum Christi ad inferos locum damnatorum coÌ„cludant parum firmo nituntur fundamento Non enim comparationem in lituit Apost vnius partis terrae ad totam terram sed totam teâ—ram cum coelo confert Musculus on this place bringeth two senses indifferently the last accordeth with this Potest expâ—â— deterra simpliciter cuâ—us partes sunt respectu coeli inferiores This much agreeth with vs against our Doctor Musculus his other sense is this Descendit ad nos in hunc mundum ad sepulchrum ad inferos descendit ad eos propter quos redimendos venit quousque illi in partibus terrae cum vivendo tum moriendo ad inferiora demissi sunt covsque ipse sese demisit quo nos ex inferioribus secum ad superiora vnde descendit subveheret Where hee dissâ—nteth also from this Doctor hoâ—ding that he never descended farther than the Sancts of God doth whome he came to redeeme which was not I trowe so farre as the damneds hell Pelicanus on this place saith Ascendit redivivus in sublime secum ducens victoriae suae trophaeum captivoram gregem à peccati Diabolique tyrannide liberatum Here he holdeth that he did cary the fathers vp to heauen which our Doctor demeth Petrus Martyr de vtraque in Christo natura contra vbiquitarios fol. 59. in typis Chistophâ—â—â— Froschoveri apud Tygurinos saith Descendit ergo ad inferâ—ora terrae ascendit super omnes coeâ—os filius Dei vt non solum legem Prâ—phetasque compleret sed alias quasdam occultas dispensationes quas solus ipse novit cum Patre Neque enimscire pâ—ssumus quomodo Angelis his qui in inferno erant sanguis Christi prâ—fuerit tamen quin profuerit nescire non possumus Here this most excellent man avoucheth that Christs blood was profitable to them in hel which our Doctor date not â—ay of the damned howsoever Peter Martyr meant it The third place is out of the 1. Pet. 3. 18. 19. 20. mortified in the flesh quickened in the spirit in vvhich spirit hee vvent and preached to the spirits sometime disobedient in the daies of Noah c. Hemingius on this place saith Patet quod carnis vocaâ—ulo tota humana natura Christi intelligatur sicut spiritus appellatione ejusdem divina natura And a little after he saith Perpeâ—am quidam spiritus nomen ad animam tantum referunt contra apertum Paulâ— testimonium Aepinus vpon the 68. Psalme saith Petrus non meminit animae separatae à corpore sed illius spiritus quo tempore Nohae increduliâ— praedicavit nondum â—ssâ—m ta humâ—na carne qâ—â— viviâ— catus 〈◊〉 à morte qui spiritus Deus est non rationalis anima Deus enimisculcitavâ—t cum sâ— lutis dâ—loâ—â—bus mortis Act 2. 13. noÌ„ anima Aretios on this place saith Ideo carâ—em accipio libenter pro tota humana natura Christi quaÌ„ assumpsit in vâ—â—tatem personae Contra viuâ—â—catus est Spiritu hoc est secundum divinam naturam Pneumâ— igitur est divina natura vt constet fibi antithesis These three agree here vvith vs against this Doctor that bosteth so much of their names Vitus Theodorus in the contents of the chapters of the first Epistle of Peter transâ—ated into Latine by Selneccer one of Maister Doctors authâ—rs saith Singulâ—ris haec est doctrina quae alibâ— in scâ—pturis nusqâ—â—aÌ„ legitur quid Apostolus per eam intelligit nondum perfecte scire
A REIOYNDER TO DOCTOR HIL CONCERNING THE DESCENSE OF CHRIST INTO HELL WHEREIN THE ANSWERE TO HIS SERmon is justlie defended and the roust of his reply scraped from those arguments as cleanlie as if they had neuer bene touched with that canker By Alexander Hume Maister of Artes. ¶ HEERE BESIDES THE REIOYNDER thou hast his Paralogismes that is his fallacies and deceits in reason pointed out and numbered in the margin amounting to the nomber of 600. and aboue and yet not half reckoned TO THE RIGHT HONORABLE ROBERT ERLE OF ESSEX AND EWE VICOVNT Hereford and Bourchier Lord Ferreis of Chartlie Lord Bourchier and Lovane Maister of her Majesties horses and Knight of the most noble order of the Garter LONG LIFE WITH INCREASE OF Honour and after this lyfe lyfe euerlasting BEing drawne Right honorable into this controversie by the accidents expressed in the Epistle to the Reader I levelled all my labours to rake vp the coales and stiflle the flames of contention Being priuate I endevoured to keepe my selfe within the boundes of my condition I wrote in secrete acquainting fewe with my counsell I tempered my stile with the modestest words that I could devise I submitted my self to be led by better reasons I abstained from offences occasions of choller I wrote in latine that it might not come into the handes of the multitude hoping that if anie blowes fell harder then I meant them they might be the better taken the fewer saw them But all this seed bred no corne for M. Doct. hunting after praeferment if I mistake not his plot and setting the foundation of his praise on this conquest hath now published in print that I wrote in a corner cried at the crosse that I sent vnder seale If the worste were my disgrace it might be borne with or if all readers had learning this reply might be contemned But seeing this cause is Christs and slips amongest the simple may goe for six pence I will not betray him that hath done so much for mee nor see them deceaued whome he hath bought so dearlie The question is of an article of our faith and pertaineth to all that care what they beleeue The doubt is not whether the article be true but in what sense it is true For seing these articles are not scripture but grounded on the Scripture the question is in what sense Christ is said according to the Scriptures to descend into Hell And now seeing hee is no more a Christian that is ignorant of his faith then he a Carpenter that caÌ„not handle his axe this must needs be a question as necessarie as it is needfull for a Christian to vnderstand what he beleeueth For that which manie saie it sufficeth to knowe that Christ descended into Hell though they knowe not in what sort he was there is as if a farmer shoulde content himself that hee hath a lease of his faâ—me and neuer enquire how long it lasteth nor on what condition hee holdeth By the same reason it is sufficieÌ„t to know that Christ was born and that he suffered and needlesse to seeke how he was borne and what hee suffered Wherefore I haue resolued to stand at my defense and to beare the brunt of these blowes For my weapons are sound Syllogismes my armour Scripture and truth my shield I doubt not of the proofe and feare not the muscate I was brief before as the mediocritie of a private letter requyred My breuitie bred obscuritie and gaue more probabilitie to his inversions and euasions to his insinuations and collections to his making and marring my argumentes in wrong mouldes But now I haue made them my self shaped them on such blockes as will not I hope be easilie wrung out of fashion I haue turned his ordinance some against himself and all from vs so farre as I hope he will dispair himself to hit this marke with that shot Yet because manie mindes are swayed with affection of the man or with conceit of the matter and my name came neuer neere so manie eares as this booke is like to come in mouths I haue resolued to commend it to your honor Hoping that if your name win minds to read the waight of my reasons shall turne the scales and winne heartes to beleeue I haue manie reasons of my choise Your Zeale of Gods house Your loue of Gods glorie Your knowledge in Gods worde And your aestimation in Gods Church amongest such as loue his name sincearly and her Maiestie for his sake vnfainedlie Adde that M. D. Reynoldes the load starre of Oxenford whome your honour hath maintained there to confute the Fryar Bellarmine hauing laid open all the plaites and ript the seames of this controuersie I presume the more to vse your name in this cause which hath beene maintained vnder your countenance If there were any hope that that worke would come out shortlie I would burie my papers in the duste But seeing that time is like to be long and manie in the meane time are deceaved with these bold bragges I haue thought expedient to amaze the adversaries of this doctrine with the light of that sunne when it shall please God to giue it to his Church to set out my little candle wherein I hope there is light inough to disperse the mistes and pearce the cloudes of these Sophismes Thus beseeching God the authour of all honour to augment your honour to your comfort his glorie I commit you to him whose cause I commend to you Your Honours humble Oratour ALEXANDER HVME TO THE READER I Am forced gentle Reader though I hate contention to contend with a contentious man or else having the better end of the staffe to forsake a good cause It is not possible that the Lordes fielde should want tares his net bad fishe or his Church offences but wo to them by whome they rise This wo in controversies pertaines to the one side It is hard and almost impossible that both bee guiltie Wherefore as I am cleare before the Lord so to purge my selfe before thee I will set down how this dissension first beganne The Bishop of Salisburie that last was before his remooving to Yorke tooke order that certaine preachers should keepe lecture on the market daies in the cheefe market townes of his Diocese There is a great market euerie Satterday at a towne called Chippenhame in North Wilshire Within 4. myles of which dwelleth one M. Wisedome a man for integritie of lyfe and exceeding paines in his calling loued of all the godlie hated of the wicked and admired of both This man was one of the prechers appointed to that place and preached there once in a fourtnight or a month I know not which Wherfore on Satterday the 14. day of Februarie or thereabout Anno 1589. expounding in that place the articles of the beleef he deliuered this opinion which I defend concerning the descense of Christ into hel WheÌ„ he had done one Chalfont Vicar of that towne stood vp and protested to the
it is no more capable of more particularitie if it bee translated this day then Adame Hill Vicar of Westburie and Parson of Goosage can be made more particular by saying this Adame Hill Vicar c. This Logick reacheth far beyond the praecepts that you learned in the Vniversitie and yet I see that it commeth much short of that which is in you For you will not onelie affirme it but confirme it also that hodie eris mecum is asmuch as eris mecum in aeternum If you wil make that good you may goe whether you will no hedge can holde you The Scripture hath by way of comparison that 1000. yeares are as one day in the sight of the Lord. If all aeternitie bee in your sight but as one day you must be some magnus Apollo so much greater then God as aeternitie is more then 1000. yeares But what can you make of 1000. yeares that can make so much of one day One day I am sure is not the proper name of aeternitie And therefore I would faine know of a man of your skill seeing when one word vsurpeth the place of another except it be like the Popes statuimus for abrogamus it must be either effectum pro causa subiectum pro adiunctâ— simile pro simile pars pro toto aut contra to which of these heades you will referre hodie pro aeterno If you thinke it pars pro toto then in your conceit the partes of a thing infinite must be finite contrarie to an axiome esteemed for truth amongst other men that an infinite thing is not deuide-able Heereof commeth the maxime that you after alledge out of Aristotle that in things aeternall there is no time You by it entiteling it the Philosophicall reason of Aristotle vndertake to proue that one day doth signifie aeternitie but streight way by nimble convoiance of legerdemaine you slip the thing you promise turne your hand to proue Aristotles philosophicall reason For if there be time say you in aeternitie then is there motion Thus like a merchaunt that fraughting his ships with corne to go to Deep when shee is lanched forth into the sea turneth his saill and pointeth to Spaine You pretending to proue that one day must needes heere signifie aeternitie fall to proue that in aeternitie there is no time a thing neuer denied But reason woulde haue hewed an other peece of worke out of Aristotles block In aeternitie there is no time In one day there is time Ergo one day is not aeternitie But to proue this you alledge four texts of scripture which are all but the repetitions of one out of the 2. Psalme wherein you are deceiued your self labour to deceaue others For to day in that place doth not signifie â—eternity as Iunius proueth finelie in his Parallels The words be Thou art my sonne this day haue I begotten thee Wherein saith hee is noted first the aeternall begetting of his Deitie in these wordes Thou art my sonne and the temporall begetting of his humanitie in these wordes to day haue I begotten thee His reason is drawne from the place of Paule which heere you quote Act. 13. For he alledging this place to the Iewes in their Synagogue as a plaine argumeÌ„t of Christs Divinitie could neuer haue hoped to effect that amongst such a froward companie if he had put such a violent face on the text as to take one day for all aeternitie To this most excellent reason I add another out of the same text This place of the psalm doth proue that God raised vp Iesus to fulfill that promise to the Children which he before had made to their Fathers But that promise was then performed when Iesus was given to them in the flesh Ergo this place of the Psalme must haue relation to that day when the sonne of God which was before all aeternitie was giuen to the Iewes in the flesh Notwithstanding these reasons if it were granted you which you can neuer proue that to day in this place of the Psalme doth signifie aeternitie yet it will not follow that it must needes haue the same signification in these words of Christ likewise Wherefore to fill this ditch you fal to worke vpon the text In it you make along haruest of little corne telling in manie wordes that grace glorie aeternall life the things giuen are aeternall But what makes the aeternitie of the gift or of the giuer to proue that the time wherin it was giuen is aeternall Of things aeternall onlie God who is aeternitie it selfe is without beginning and ending Grace glorie and aeternall life imparted to his creatures of the fulnesse of his aeternitie haue a beginning then when they are giuen though their continuance be aeternall Now in these words This day thou shalt bee with mee this day noteth the time when this aeternall gift should begin and not the continuance and durance thereof This may suffise to crush all the small bones of your shrimpish arguments As for your Fathers Doctors whom you alledge not directlie but by such consequentes as you pinne to the tailes of their gownes I will passe them ouer for breuities sake and because you haue promised in the 3. sect not to relie on men in this question HVME Sect. 7. BVt now to come to your reasons First you muster all your forces about the Hebrew and Greeke against the most learned of this age It will coast you a great deale of eloquence to perswade the worlde that Tremelius and Iunius Calvine and Beza and the translaters of the Geneva Bible with manie more excellent men that spent their age in that studie did not know these words as well as you had as great care to sift out the truth For my part neither is my skill so great neither am I now minded to stand with you vpon that point I see no inconvenience to hurt vs nor vantage giuen you if I grant that SHEOL must be englished Hell in the place of the Psalme which you cite Onelie this I stand vpon which I haue said that this word is manie times vsed in the Scriptures for the torments of hell and must needes be so taken heere The verie order of the wordes will ouerthrow your conceit Thou wilt not leaue my soule in Hell nor suffer thy holie one to see corruption For seing the Hell that his soule should not bee left in commeth before the graue wherein his bodie should not see corruption what hell went before his burial but onelie that of hiâ— passion wherin he paied the whole ransom of our redemption and nailed the handwrite that was against vs to his Crosse HIL his reply Two vntruthes are in these fewe wordes First you make much adoe about SHEOL against almost all the learned men of this age There ar on my side Luther Aepinus Felinus Pomeranus Lucas Lossius Selueccer Vrbanus Rhegius The authors of the Centuries Erasmus Chytreus Molerus Peter
Martyr Lauaterus Prouerb 27. In England Lambert Robert Samuel Latimer Becon Hutchinson Fox and Nowell Heere are 20. most learned men of these latter times as I can shew you in my poore Library besides that most learned and reuerend Father M. Allen and besides the aduised iudgement of the learned Conuocations of England not only in King Edwards raigne Anno Domini 1552. but also since the raigne of her Maiestie 1571. In the which Canuocations I am perswaded were as learned men as any were either in England or Europe Therfore the learned reader must either thinke you a man of little reading and that you neuer sawe these learned mens workes or else of greate malice that you will disable al these for learning who left a better testimonie behinde them then euer you wil vnlesse you haue mor then you haue shewed in this answer The other vntruth is that SHEOL in the 16. Psalme doth signyfie the torments of hell which Christ suffered in his passioÌ„ on y â— crosse That this is vntrue it is manifest not by conceit but by Pet. Sermon Act. 2. 31. Hee knowing this before spake of the resurrection that his soule was not left in hell nor his flesh saw corruption You say it is spoken of the passion Peter saith it is spoken of the resurrection and good cause hath he so to say for the words going before and coÌ„ming after do prooue it The words going before are these Psalm 16 9. Wherefore my hart was glad my glory reioyseth my fleshe also shall rest in hope The words following in the 11. verse are these Thou shalt shewe me the path of life in thy presence is the fulnes of ioy and at thy right are pleasures for euer more Where can you finde your torments in the word glad or in the word reioiseth or in the word rest or in these words fulnesse of ioy or in these pleasures for evermore Was Christ glad of his torments Did he reioise or wepe in them Who would deliuer this doctrine but hee that wanteth either science or conscience or both To lye once is a fault but affirme it twice is a greater fault To speake a lye is hurtful but to write a lye aduisedly is more hurtfull To lye in a matter politicall is dangerous but to lye in deuine matters without speedie repentance is damnable You say noe vantage is giuen to me nor inconuenience to you if you grant SHEOL to be Hel Let your frinds iudge what vantage you haue geuen to the truth and shame to your self by gainsaying Saint Peter and by affiâ—ming that in the resurrection are torments where Dauid and Peter say are fulnes of ioy and pleasures for enermore Therefore it is the saying of Peter that Christs soule was not left in hell and not my conceit and it is deceit in you to affirm the contrary Further where you say that Tremelius and Iunius are better learned in the Hebrew language then my selfe I confesse it so are the Iewes them selues then Tremelius and Iunius shall I therefore beleue the Iewes no more will I beleue the Translation of any other learned man if he disagree with Dauid and Sauite Peter Finially to answer your curious question you aske me in what hell was Christ soule before his buriall To this I answer in that hell whither all Infidels goe for their vnbelefe I reade but of one Hell if you knowe any more let mee see your proofe and theÌ„ wil I tel you into what hel Christ desceÌ„ded But who but you doth thinke it an vnpossible thing for a soule to desceÌ„d into hel before the body be buried The soule in an instaÌ„t passeth to heaueÌ„ or hel but the body I am sure must haue time to be buried for bodies are in places circumscriptiuely Angels and soules definitiuely and God is in all places vniuersally And the soule came out of hell into the body before the body could come out of the graue therfore most aptly it is said Acts 12. 31. Thou shalt not leaue my soule in hell nor suffer my flesh to see corruption For as August saith in his 57. epistile ad Dardanum That was spoken of his soul which cam from hel so quickly this of his body which could not corrupt by reason of his speedy resurrection and writing on the 85. Psalme he saith wherfore this is his voice in the psalme not by any mans coniecturs but by the exposition of the Apost Thou shalt not leaue my soule in hell nor suffer thy holy one to see corruption HVME his Reioynder IN this section I followed Calvine from whose judgement I am nowe departed on this place of the Psalme as said is before sect 4. Yet that the reader may see how neare the trueth Calvine creepes I will defend him from all this wyde shot and cleare my self of these hainous accusations First you begin with vntruthes there is nothing so much in your mouth It should seeme that the moulde is not vnfit for such matter that casteth so much shot of that sise But if you had not beleeued your secretarie better then my owne copie the first of these vntruthes had neuer founde the waye from your owne lippes My wordes are Tu multa de nominibus inferni contra doctissimos huius atatis disputas As for your favorits in the end of my Epistle I graunted that you wanted not the countenance of sundrie great writers who rather said as you say then confirme their saying by Scripture or reason My wordes were multos habet fateor magnâ—s patronos causa vestra qui ita potius censuerunt quam ratione sententiam suam confirmarunt NotwithstaÌ„ding all this you runne such a treble on mee with vntruthes that if I would runne the counter-tenor you would blushe to heare the discorde of your owne descant As for your 20. authours first they were not all Hebricians nor vnderstood the word wherin you say they tooke your parte Secondlie though some of them drewe neere your opinion yet they neuer wrote of SHEOL to bee taken as you will haue it Thridlie Peter Martyr held that the soule of Christ did present it self to all the dead aswel the blessed as the damned Fourthlie Luther and Latimer holde that Christ suffered in Hell Fiftlie Lossius and Hemingsus holde that the whole Christ as he was borne of the Virgine Marie descended into Hel. Sixtlie Mollerus affirmeth that your opinion cannot be proved by this place of this Psalme Seuinthly M. Nowell holdeth that Christ by the vertue of his death did pearse to the dead and the damned Hell Eightlie Lambert saith nothing for you but onelie quoteth a place out of Augustine to another purpose wherein August seemeth to say as you say But Lambert neither lyketh nor dislyketh it Nynthlie Robert Samuell saith no more for
your self or half so indifferent as men do wish that wish you well you might haue seen that the graue is vsed by a Metonymi◠for all the dead whether layd vp in the bowels of the earth or floting in the sea or devoured of rauenous beasts For the Hebrue SHEOL doth not so much signifie the graue which for want an other word we are forced to set for it by a Metonymia as that which the greeke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 doeth better expresse by the privation of light or life separating all the dead which in Latine be called inferi and manes from the living which they call superstites And not comprysing onelie them which are buried in a graue as you do ignorantly suppose heere nor the damned as you do as wiselie hold in another place Thus the very heathens did vse this word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 saith Homer that is hee sent manie worthie soules not to the hell of tormentes that had beene a bad rewarde for their worthinesse but to the dead or to the graue So is the same word vsed by Nonnus a Christian Poet of great antiquitie in his Paraphrase vpon Iohn cap 11. speaking of Lazarus who you will not saye I hope was in Hell 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is and hearing amongst them that were dead rotten the fugitiue corps returned again out of hel The same authour in the same place vseth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the same signification whence the Latines haue borrowed their Barathrum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 That is who raised vp the dead Lazarus skipping out of the smokie gulfe and returning from the dead So the Latines vsed their Orcus and Tartarus not deuiding the damned and the saued but the dead and the living by the privation and habit of light and seeing Wher you aske mee why Dauid should speake of their temporall death which is common to all I tolde you if you will be tolde it to solace himself by the rememberance of their malice that it was not euerlasting but should cease with their short liues You conclude this section with a new syllogisme with protestation to good M. Hum◠so you call him to answere it plainelie The lower partes of the earth signifie not the graue but hell Christ descended into the lower parts of the earth Ergo Christ discended into Hell Now M. Hume to deserue your good name first denies the maior secondlie he replyes to the minor that in his judgement the lowermost partes of the earth that Christ descended into may wel be taken for the base and meane estate that the sonne of God discended into vpon the earth The sonne of a Carpentar borne in a stable cradled in a cratch and living in a base estate without a hole to hide his head in was even the lowest and basest partes of the earth Hee could not well goe lower Thus Hume bids you goe your way and take this for an answere HVME Sect. 9. YOur other places be I wil pearce through all the lowermost partes of the earth and looke on them that bee a sleepe Eccles 24. And they shall be cast downe into the lowermost parts of the earth and sleep in the middest of the vncircumcised Ezech. 31. 18. which two places by your leaue cannot be well meant of Hel. Except that you can perswade vs that there is sleepe that is rest and quietnes in Hell but of the graue and state of the dead whereof wee haue as commonlie almoste as stones in the streete he did sleepe with his Fathers The same wordes ERETS TACHTITH which you say doth signifie properlie Hell be so vsed by the Prophet David Psal 139. 14. That they can no wise bee taken in that signification except it can be proued that Dauid was fashioned and made in Hell His wordes bee these My bones are not hid from thee though I was made in a secrete place and fashioned beneath in the earth Here Beza doeth well obserue that the place of the Apostle which you alledge may fitlie bee applied to the sense of this place and note vnto vs the discense of Christ into the wombe of the Virgine HIL his Reply FIrst you say the place quoted by me Syrac 24. 37 maketh not for the proofe of my assertion If you had considered what went before and what followeth you wold haue bin of another mind For before in the 8. verse is saide I alone haue gon round about al the compas of heauen and haue walked in the bottome of the depth Which depth Pellicanus alearned writer doth interpret abyssum mortis inferorum the depth of death and hel Yea the whole Chapter speaketh of the Sonne of God and of his wondrous workes in sauing mankinde of the which this is on that he was not only aliue among the liuing but after death his bodye was among the dead bodyes and his soule among the soules in hell which hee calleth the lower parts The like scripture to this is in Iob. 38. 16 17. Hast thou entered into the bottom of the sea or hast thou walked to seeke out the depth haue the gates of death bin opened vnto thee or hast thou seene the gates of the shadowe of death These words are thus opened by Martin Borrhauius in his learned Commentaries vpon Iob. I haue dwelled in the highest places and my throne is in the pillar of the cloudes I haue gone rounde about the compasse of heauen aboue and haue wallted in the flouds of y ◠sea I pearce through all the lower parts of the earth Haue those in hell or the dead bin searched out of thee dost thou knowe their estate and condicion and what shall happen to their bodyes hereafter and what doth happen to their soules now The force of death and of hell hee maketh maniefest by the names of gates as it is manifest in that scripture and the gates of hell shall not prevaile against thee By these words it is euident that the nethermoste partes of the earth Syrac 24 37. and Zalmaueth the Hebrue word Iob. 38 17. doo signifie hell and that none but the Sonne of God aboue hath personaly shewed himself in all these places For the place in Ezechiel that it maketh most significantly for my purpose I wil proue it by Esay Ezech and diuers other both learned modest writers Esay 14 9. handling the same matter saith Hel beneth is moued for thee to meet thee at thy comming And Ezechiel in the 15. and 16. verses calleth it hell plainly Sith then both the prophets call it hell how dare you to interpret the graue that the nethermost parts of the earth do signifie hell I prooue it out of the 12. ver of Ezechiel And the strangers haue destroyed him euen the terrible nations and they haue left him vp on the montaines and in all the vallies his branches are broken Munster
to bee quickned is to bee deliuered from miseries Ingenuitie woulde haue confessed a fault You conclude with a confutatioÌ„ of the Antithesis between the divinity humanity but my reason is froÌ„ an Antithesis between mortified quickned flesh spirit which you by a corrupted glose taking quickned for a deliuerie froÌ„ miries did ouerthrow Yet because I said that Paul maketh that antithesis Rom. 1. It shal not be impertineÌ„t to view your reasons An Antithesis must be say you of things opposite and contrarie I add the Diuinitie and humanitie bee thinges opposite Ergo there may be an Antithesis of the Diuinity and the humanitie But they are vnited say you What then So be the flesh and the spirit and yet Christ saieth the Spirit is readie but the fleshe is weake A common Logician much more a Doctor should know that no vniting of thinges betweene which a difference may be obserued can let an Antithesis if occasion serue Notwithstanding the vniting a man may wel say Christ as hee was man was passible as hee was God he was impassible To these reasons I added more in my latine which I sent you The spirit heere doth signifie that which his enemies hell death could not touch according to the text he was quickened in the spirit But his humane soule escaped not the violence of his enemies Ergo the word spirit heere doth not signifie his humane soule To this you make no answere The seaventh was This spirit of which he speaketh heere did preach But the humane soule cannot preach Ergo the spirit heere is not the humane soule To this you answere that he preached not vocallie but reallie that is not in words but in deeds A dumb man may preach so as well as D. Hill If you stand 7. dayes in the pulpit of the great Church at Sarum and say nothing there bee not 7. men within 700. myles that wil commend your sermon The eight was Whosoeuer doth preach he doth it either to amend the enormities of the hearers or to instruct them in the waye of saluation But this was not to be hoped for in damned spirits Ergo hee preached not in Hell to damned spirits Heere you answere that he preached to reproue them of their infidelitie but you fall still in one ditch He that reproueth infidelitie doeth it either to mend it or to take away excuses But there was no such hope in these that were past all remedie and excuse The ninth was This preaching was when the disobedience of the hearers was reforme-able But this was onelie reforme-able in the dayes of Noah Ergo this preaching was not but in the daies of Noah This hath no answere The tenth was from the circumstances of the text and necessarie Analysis thereof Which I remitted to Beza who hath done that better then I can and whose notes it is not likelie that you want hauing such a Librarie as you speake of sect 7. You in the margent will mee to read Aretius and Alesius The one I haue read and the other cannot moue mee though hee be my countrie-man I haue learned to preferre truth before men what euer they be These were my reasons which I joined to the lawfull vse of the words proved by Iohn Paul and Peter In them so ouer-smoked is your sense you smell no reason at all But tell your reader that we cannot proue ouâ— interpretations by the Scriptures as you do yours and yet you bring nothing for your owne but that the words may bee so taken and a fewe sillie conjectures answered before by mee Nowe having set downe mine let mee see howe stoutlie you haue defended yours THe first was Poreutheis that is went doth signifie motion from one place to another But the Deitie cannot moue from anie place being at al times in all places Ergo poreutheis is not attributed to the Deitie To the minor of this argument I aunswered out of the 18. of Genesis and 3. of Exodus That the God-head is saide to mooue from place to place by a figure called Anthropopatheia You reply that the bookes that I cite are written in Hebrewe And that the interpreters doe translate that hebrew word by katabainein or erchesthai and not porâ—uesthaâ— As if the Hebrewe tongue which is called lingua sancta were fitter to speak improperly of God then the Greeke or that poreuesthai had gotten some speciall licence more then anie other verbs of motion to be free from that figure Yet if it will please you to read Exod. 13. 2. Nomb. 14. 14. Deut. 1. 33. Exod. 33. 3. Psal 132. 8. Deut. 31. 3. Psal 71. 12. Psal 88. 7. and infinite such places more you shall find that plakket deere of a naked q. without a cap. But suppose that I could not finde it attributed to the Deitie in all these Scriptures yet you were not the nearer your marke For if you bee remembred your reason was in Chippenham that poreuesthai cannot bee giuen to the Deitie because it is a verb of motion Now the maior of your syllogism must be that no verb of motion can bee attributed to the Deitie Which maior being crased by my first answere and the examples there alledged There is no reason left you why poreuesthai cannot be attributed to the Deitie as wel as erchesthai or katabainein and no reason you knowe is too weake against ten such stout reasons as I haue sent you forcing this sense vpon this place Your next argument was from the participle quickned thus No passiue can agree with the Deitie Quickned is a passiue Ergo it cannot agree with the Deitie This syllogism I granted to be good and told you withall that wee doe not attribute this Participle to the Deitie but to the whole Christ by participation of proprieties following the text which saith not that the flesh was mortified and the spirit quickned but that Christ was mortified in the flesh and quickened in the spirite This answere you stroke off your skore Your third argument was from the tense or time 〈…〉 bee attributed to Christ at one time they note that hee was deade and aliue at one time But the first is true Ergo the last is true To this I answere denying the maior That participles or verbs of one time attributed to one thing muste needes pertaine to one time In the beleef wee say that Christ was crucified dead and buried where crucified dead buried be all of one tense or time yet agree not all to Christ at one instance of time To this you reply that they muste pertaine to one time and proue your maior thus Christ was after his passion dead or aliue at on time or else neuer If he were neuer dead and aliue at one time S. Peter speaketh not trulie If hee were dead and aliue at one time then I speake falselie In this Syllogisme is neither mood nor
figure and besides that it standeth on a begging of the question That Peter saieth hee was at one time deade and aliue is the question and you take that as if it were granted Your fourth reason was If Peter saith that the flesh was dead and the Spirit quickened then doeth hee shew that he was both dead and aliue at one time But the first is true Ergo the last is not false The minor of this Syllogisme I did denie shewing that it is flat against the text which saieth not that the fleshe was dead and the spirit quickened But that Christ was dead in the flesh and quickned in the spirit This reason it pleaseth you of your courtesie to send away in secrete without a God be with you Your fifth reason was The Scripture doth join this going preaching cloase to his passion as if it wold say As soone as hee had suffered hee went and preached I answered you that as and if did carie too weake a consequence in so waightie a matter This asse sadled with an if 〈…〉 Your sixt reason was out of the 6. of Genes That the preaching of Noah is there attributed to the third person of the Deitie and not to the second The words of that text bee The Lord said My spirit shall not alwaies striue with man because hee is but fleshe Which wordes I answered you in the Latine that I sent you that I neuer sawe anie interpreters that doe consent with you in this exposition and interprete these words of the third person of the Deitie Tremelius and Iunius their judgement I set down as that I liked best who take these words to be a Hebraisme sounding as if he had said I wil not alwaies stand disputing with my selfe what to do with these men which yeeld no frutes but of flesh blood for nowe I am determined except they repent to destroy them at the day appointed Notwithstanding granting you that it were as you would haue it I tolde you seeing the actions of euery person of the Deitie are common to all three hee erreth not that giueth them to anie of the three This you confesse to be true But you ask me if I can proue that Christ preached in Noah after his passion affirming confidentlie that this was attributed to him of Peter after the passion It were requisite that you had good proof according to the waight of this case and your confidence in speaking it But I will ease you of that burden Proue it out of the text with anie reasonable shew of truth and you shall haue my hart and hand The order of the wordes which you stand so stoutlie vpon is not so strict as you would haue it For the purpose and drift of the Apostle heere is to perswade vs to patience by the example of our Saviour and not to set out his death descending and resurrection in order as they were done but obiter as they fall in hand and followe the matter that heere he driveth to perswade Your seauenth reason was if Christ was raised from the dead by the first person of the Deitie and not by the second then the word spirit heere cānot be construed of the Deitie but Christ was raised by the first person and not by the second Ergo c. I might well haue tolde you that this minor is absurde and flat against the plaine text Ioh. 5. 21. Whatsoeuer thing the Father doth the same the sonne doeth also with him And Ioh. 10. 18. which wordes I did quote not farre before in the defence of my second reason I haue power to lay downe my life and I haue power to take it vp again But then sparing you and refraining all hard speeches how euer they were due I onelie tolde you that I sawe not howe that could stand with the trueth of the Scriptures which telleth mee that the second person did put on man and did not forsake him in all his distresses You reply in the margent of your written copy see contrarie to this Act 4. 40 Act. 13. 30. 1. Cor. 15. 15. Which places I haue marked obserued to make nothing against my assertion In them the raising vp of christ is attributed to the God-head which worketh not as I haue noted alreadie one person without another Which thing if it bee an errour it was Iohn that seduced mee cap. 5. 7. The Father worketh and I work As the Father doth raise vp the deade so the sonne likewise doth raise vp whome he will And in the 17. verse quoted a little aboue The same is agreable to other infinite places of Scripture and the somme of our Faith called the beleef which saieth the third day hee rose againe and not that hee was raised againe Your eight reason was If the time that they were preached to and of their disobedience was not one then this preaching is not to bee vnderstood of Noah his preaching in the time of their disobedience But the adverbe pote doth distinguish those times Ergo c. To this I answere that the Adverb pote doth not determine the participle apeithesasi but the principall verbe ekeryxen You replie that I speak neither like a Divine nor like a Grammarian To proue me no divine which indeede I am not and no Grammarian which I am but little you alledge no Diuinitie and little grammer It will not followe that because it may stand with a Participle therefore it is so heere or that because it is distinguished from the verb with a comma therefore it cannot determine it at all You are not ouer-loden with Grammar if you knowe not that diuerse and manie reasons may part wordes depending one on the other by a comma And as for this place pote if it did depend as you would haue it vpon apeithesasi it cannot bee distinguished from ekeryxen with a comma seing apeithesasi it self is gouerned of ekeryxen without commixture of anie interjected member to parte them What euer your book hath take heed that it be not a stain to your skill in grammar to credite a book in such a case Your ninth argument was Noah preched to men These were spirits not men Ergo Noah preached not to these I answered that whosoeuer preacheth to men preacheth to spirites because no men want spirits that is reasonable soules And now I ad that they are heer called Spirits in respect of their imprisonment not in respect of his preaching If hee had called them men then the name of prison wherein they are now datained had beene improper The Apostle wiselie choosed that worde which might best agree with both those times Bezaes opinion also whereto Andradius the Papist agreeth is most probable that pote doth determine the same Participle apeithesasi and doeth distinguish it from tois en phylake pneumasi which must needs be vnderstood in the present time by vertue of the
cannot pertaine to the Dei tie more then poreuesthai 400 Proprietie of speach allace sillie man see the answer 401 A vaine dreame 402 Doth anie of these places affirme your assertion 403 I haue quoted 8. and could hâ—ue quoted 20. see the answere But with what face can you challenge a place of me that is so vsed when you caÌ„ bring neither reason nor place to the contrarie 404 wil it but seem tollerable when I haue done then it is better alreadie for now it is a known truth 405 Your knowledge was but a ges and I haue be guiled you 406 I haue proued it both agreable and necessary which I needed not I stand at defence It was your part to proue which you cannot do if you had 7. wits as good as your owne 407 Ware sheep that is against the text that wherein he was mortified preached not 408 Christ and not this Deitie If I had saide so you woulde haue exclaimed vpon ignorance 409 I hope the soule wherin you say he preached was not killed 410 I neuer heard a reall sermon without words 411 That is out of the text 412 So is that also petitio principij twise together 413 You beg the question againe 414 Where when and to whome said I so 415 It followes not 416 These scriptures proues it not 417 You dreame that is not mine 418 You fight with your own shadow 419 That â—ollowes not A man may say as well D. Hill is a wrangling spirit as he calleth his aduersaries phantasticall spirits fol. 24. of his sermon and yet both he and they haue bodies 420 you shuld hane left this to the boyes in Oxford it is heere a deformed patch 421 You do well to holde you in that corner but I hope you will refuse not the Canonical scripture for al this 422 Then I see it bootles to hope for your promise 423 A narrow shift 424 The thing is true your proof is naught like al the rest 425 Hand-somlie in good sadnesse D. you cannot tell howe to settle your self to proue anie thing 426 Blush for shame se the answere 427 Vpon your vnsure gesse he were mad then 428 First you say that they take prison fâ—r hell you conclude that they al alleâ—dge this place as you do your pen runnes at random 429 Their conscâ—ence I hope was bettâ—r then their warrant 430 You haue promised that once alreadie 431 It was neuer denied what needs a confession in a known case 432 Now for your credites sake tell me wher Pet. saith that hee was dead aliue at one time 433 For sham M. D. speake truth 434 A tautalogie 435 But not when he was dead 436 You will say that with Peter which Peter neuer said 437 This word expresseth not the Greeke thana totheis 438 And yet the whole maÌ„ may be mortified 439 See the answere 440 Not so but the spirits that now are in prison 441 And so it was but not in hell 442 How proue you that 443 The death and resurrection of Christ his preaching in the dayes of Noah ar heer mentioned obiter and as occasions led them in expresseth not the order when they were done If this reasoning be good the passion in the beginning of the 4 cap. following the ascension expressed in the last verse of the third 444 But most commonlie with a verbe 445 This is like salue Domine I am glade to see you wel M. D. begins wâ—th greek out of the new Testament and ends in latine out of the English accidents 446 Euerie aduerb affecteth not the word it standeth by 447 Put out that comma it is an vsurper 448 Nor separated from it 449 That promise is twise made now 450 I said that nothing is spoken of Christ in these words mortified in the flesh quickned in the spirit which may not c. 451 Did you not blushe to rack my wordes to the whâ—le discourse which are spoken but of one member 452 No forsooth 453 those be without my bounds 454 those be without my bounds 455 That is the forme giueth the forme to the 〈◊〉 456 Why mine more then yours 457 So say we 458 En is not in that verse at all expressed 459 You dreame 460 You promise to proue that en signifieth not by proue that dia signifieth by this is coÌ„mon with you a cunning point 461 You say it cannot bee so taken and would that answere seme probable 462 A flat negatiue for an instance 463 A tautologie 464 I haue said that this worde fitteth not the greek 465 A Passiue participle froÌ„ a verb actiue 466 Why so 467 But I will say he suffered death in soule and bodie 468 But why not 469 What reason should moue a reasonable man to denie that Christ suffered the death of the soule 470 This will not answere my reason 471 A confused negatiue of confusion Put your antecedents to this therfore if your skill can do so much 472 where M. D. theÌ„ were I worthie to we are a bable A rogue burned in the ear suffereth but is not killed 473 where M. D. theÌ„ were I worthie to we are a bable A rogue burned in the ear suffereth but is not killed 474 Vntruth D. the scripture vseth manie tautologies to help our memories and vnderstanding though this in mens writingâ— be a fault in scriptures it is most necessarie that one place may help another 475 This answere were somewhat if you could make it good that we giue this participle to the Deity 476 The question is whether the soule is quickened or made to liue when it is out of the bodie 477 Non causa pro causa 478 These places proue not the question 479 These places proue not the question 480 These places proue not the question 481 Paull saith not so heere 482 It followeth not 483 The Antithesis there expressed is between mortified and quickned 484 But diuerse but not alwaies separate 485 This therefore is builded on the wrong side of the way 486 You call it in your margent fortissimum argumentum but it is a starued shrimpe It cannot stand though it be not touched 487 Be sure that that be one 488 That is out of the way Christs going downe to hel is no persuasion for vs to suffer afflictions 489 But you make no dout but that hel is vnder the earth in your sermon fol. Aâ— pag. 2. in print 490 You should waste winde and break your promise 1. Reason Answere Reply 2. Reasoâ— Answers Reply Iohn 10. 18. Math. 8. 12. Ioh. 6. 27. Mar. 8. 33 Ioh. 8. 55. Ioh. 4. 24. 3. Reason 5. Reason Answere Mat. 26. 41. 6. Reason 7. Reason Answere Reply 8. Reason Answere Reply 9. Reason 10. Reason M. D. reasons confuted and his answere displayed Answere Reply Rejoynder 2. Objection Answere No reply no rejoinder 3. Object Answere 4. Objection Answere No reply no Rejoynder 5. Objection Answere No reply
sheweth that the body comming out of the graue the soule from hell Christ did conquere both And therefore it is not the deity as you say but the humane nature of Christ y â— did vanquish death Hell Heb. 2. 14. For as much then as the children were partakers of flesh and bloud he also him selfe likewise took parte with them that hee might destroy through death him that had power of death that is the Diuil There fore Hemingius on the Col. 2. saith As on the Crosse he conflicted with the diuill so by the glorious descending into hell resurrection and ascention hee did triumph Therfore these places proue his descending into hell as well as the buriall for the reason of y â— apostle is this Christ cam out of the graue ergo he conquered death and Christ came out of hell ergo he ouer came hell Therefore thus I reason against you that did conquere which did fight but the human nature of Christ did fight ergo it did also conquere is gone vp into heauen to whom the Angels powers and mightes be subiect 1. Pet. 3. 22. Col. 2. 25. phil 2. 9. 10. Eph. 1. 20. 21. 22. Therefore sith all these Scriptures do witnes that Christ as man did triumph and is exalted and hath al power I doubt not but in your next answere you will reforme your iudgement HVME his Reioynder to the 13. sect I Beseech thee good Reader take a little paines heer to mark the honest dealing of this D. Whet I say Christ could not triumph beeing in the bonds of death hee for triumph sets conquer to make them contrarie to my former words that Christ did conquere Hell vpon the crosse It is one thing to coÌ„quere another thing to triumph Pompey conquered the mightie Mithridates in Syria but hee triumphed at Rome amongst his freends that were pertakers of the joy Againe where I say with Augustine that the name of Hell is joined with shame not with honour meaning the name of hell is shamefull not glorious he takes mee to say that the name of hell cannot stand in a sentence with a word of honour quotes against mee 1. Cor. 15 55. Hell where is thy victorie in which place hell and victorie are separated as if hee had saide Hell thou hast no victorie Thirdlie whereas I say that Christ triumphed by the power of his Deitie presenting his victorie to heauen earth and Hell he giues out that I say that the Godhead triumphed and not the humanitie notes in the margent Hume contrarie to Paule and Peter and wils mee to reforme this fault in my next reply This is M. D. arte If his cause were so good as he would haue it seeme he needed not this cunning or if he caried as honest a minde as he did protest in Chippenham pulpit hee would rather performe his promise then seeke such vn-christian-like shiftes to maintaine a bad cause Now to answere his cavils I ask you M. Doct. why you send Christ to hell notwithstanding the three ends that you had noted because those endes were no endes thereof and because the Scripture doeth teach that hee had performed all those ends by the conquest of Hel vpon this crosse You brought texts of Scripture to prooue them and I answered truely that not one of them soundeth anie sillable that way For in all those places there is not a letter neither of his descending into hell nor of his triumphing ouer hell You replie that those texts do proue the resurrection which is not true of all neither and that the resurrection is a knitting of the soule and bodie together and that the knitting of them together was by bringing his soule from Hell this is your principle and his bodie from the graue Now add the conclusion that hee that proueth Christs resurrection proueth his descending into hell If this reason bee good I will yeelde For now if it will holde you haue found a way to proue your opinion by all the Scriptures When Christ cured the blinde mans eies with spittle it is plaine that he was a man If he was a man he was mortall and died If hee died his soule went to hel this is your vndoubted principle and his bodie to the graue Ergo he that writes that Christ cured the blinde mans eies with spittle doeth write that hee went to Hell By this hooke you may pull all the Scriptures out at the window and make them proue what pleaseth you HVME his 14. Sect. YOu alledge for confirmation of the second How can a man enter into a strong mans house and spoyle his goodes except first hee binde the strong man Here is not that which you vndertooke to prooue that he descended into hell to binde the deuilles This house whereof here is spoken is to any man of judgments eye by circumstance of the place not Hell but this worlde whereof the deuill had taken possession and polluted many hearts out of the which he was cast by Christ who thereby prooueth himselfe to be stronger then he and not to woorke myracles in the name of Beel-zebub as the Pharises did beare the simple people in hand HIL his Reply YOur interpretation is true and the other true also for Christ did not onlie ouercome the Diuell in y â— world but also in Hell For as Cyrill noteth on this place there was before the comming of Christ much violence taking away the flock of God and carrying them to his owne house wherefore before the comming of Christ the heathen and people of the worlde went into eternall death But Christ hath deliuered both their bodies froÌ„ the graue and their soules from Hell by his death and personall descending into Hell This place is alleadged by one Georgius Princeps Anhaltinus in his learned commentaries on the 16. Psalm which you may read if you please For as Dauid trampled on the face of Goliah so did the soule of Christ trample on Satan in hell and trode on his face and this is noted by the Prophetesse Sibilla as also by the â—eathen Poets whose wordes I haue set down in my sermon at large And therefore Clenard in his grammer giueth this obseruation katelthonta eis adou id est eis otkian tou adou he went down into hell that is into the house of Hell HVME his Reioynder to the 14. Sect. YOu graunt my interpretation to bee true but I will not graunt yours except you bring better warrant then your self and a man that I neuer sawe You will mee to buy him I am not so well purst as to buy him onlie to see this that you quote him for my interpretation is defend-able without him It standeth so sure vpon the text that you confesse it your selfe You would faine shoulder in yours too and make the Scriptures double tongued but I haue learned that one text hath but one true meaning Though
mans opinions may differ there is but one that hits the naile on the head I neede no better proofe therfore to confute your interpretation then your own confession Onelie this I add that seeing your interpretation is doubtfull it can bring no vndoubtfull proof to your doubtfull and false opinion As for the Sybiles and Heathen Poets you did well to spare them The quoting of them would haue beene more laborious then their testimonies would haue beene effectual in this case WheÌ„ you haue to doe with a heathen as some of the Fathers had they may stand you in stead 〈…〉 As for the greeke eis tou adou you construe it wrong into the hous of hel Hel hath not a house They that speak so meant the hous of Pluto called ades in greek the Lord of death as the heathen did imagine So is that word vsed by Nonnus speaking of Lazarus raised from the death by Christ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 HVME his 15. Sect. NOw one thing remaineth wherein you seemed to runne beyond your selfe and most men did wonder what you ment thereby Whereas our Saviour vpon the Crosse did vtter to the hearers then all posterities after that he had finished the work of our Redemption You took vpon you to prooue that he meant not so bearing the worlde as it were in hand that wee can speake nothing so trulie but that you caÌ„ confute it To this purpose you alleaged these places I haue finished the worke which thou gauest me As they had finished all things that were written of him And seeing all thinges now finished that the Scriptures might bee fulfilled Out of all which places say you it is apparent that there remained some things to be done after What needeth all these proofes in a matter that no man denieth It is confessed of all men I hope that when hee spake this he had not yet giuen vp the ghost But I trust you will not denie that his meaning was that his worke was finished when hee had breathed the laste breath Which thing if you grant you haue proued nothing against our assertion It is a common thing you knowe to speak that in the time past which is meant that it shall come to passe shortlie after Such were these words of Christ it is finished And like to 〈…〉 wordes in another place Beholde the houre commeth and it is 〈…〉 shal bee scattered Where he saieth that the houre is alreadie come which was to come shortlie after This must needs be the meaning of Christs wordes Neither could he otherwise as man shewe to those malitious persecuters that stood about him and vs that read it now to our comforts that he had made an end of his worke and was past the malice of all his enemies except he should haue tolde it them after that hee had giuen vp the ghost Which thing could not haue beene done without the miraculous assistance of his God-head which did in all his passion as it were hide it self and suffer the innocent man as man to pay the ransom of mans redemptioÌ„ Heere you gaue vs a distinction of consummatum re consummatum spe Deliuer it againe to the dunces whence you had it There is no haire so small which those subtile wits wil not finde a wedge to cleaue rather then confes it to be a haire if it make against their conceit be it neuer so grosse and erroneous And tell those Harpya quae tactu suo optimas dapes foedarunt that a thing may bee consummatum spe which a man meaneth not to begin 20. yeares hence perhappes neuer finishe Heere wee all wondered what you meant and were affraied least you would haue sent Christ downe to Hell to suffer Which if you did you must needes argue him of an vntrueth who is trueth it selfe For his worke had then beene so farre from an end that hee had not beene flea-bitten in respect of that which was to come This trulie M. Hill was not ware worthie of your wit HIL his Reply HEer you haue spoken much and proued nothing for of those reasons which I haue laide downe in my Sermon concerning this point not one is answered Onely as you tolde mee before I was immodest so now you tell mee I am a mad man and the wonder of the world I must answere you with Dauid I am become as a monster vnto many but my trust is in thy lawe But what will men Iudge of you that in one and the same matter affirme and deny You confesse in the begining that there remaine somewhat to doo and in the ende you wonder at mee because I sayd al things wer not finished on the crosse Your next words are these wheÌ„ our Sauiour cryed it is finished he had not giuen vp the ghoste which was the end of his work It is true that after the speking of Consummatum est it is finished he gaue up y â— ghost but that was not y â— finishing of his worke for he must also shed his bloud Heb. 9. 2â— Without sheading of blood their is no forgiuenes of sins 1. Pet. 1. 19. Iohn 1. 7. Apoc. 1. 5. In all which scriptures it is set down that we are redemed with the pricious blood of Christ The blood of Christ doth purge vs from all sinne he hath loued vs and washt away our sins in his blood Therefore the giuing vp of the ghost was not the ende of his worke Heere is a fault committed by you but I will not wonder at you nor say you are runn besides your selfe but you runn against your selfe and resist also the holy ghost Then you scornefully reiect my destincion of Consummatum re and Consummatum spe that is finished in hope and finished in deede I will defend it for it commeth not out of the Duâ—ces but out of Gods sacred word Rom. 8. 24. it is said We are saued by hope Gal. 5. 5. for we through the spirit wait for the hope of righteousnes throgh faith Luc. 21. 24. Lift vp your head saith Christ to his Disiples for your redemtion draweth nigh Rom. 8. 23. And not onely the creature but we also which haue the first frutes of the spirite doo fight even we doo fight in our selues waiting for adoption even the redemption of our body Musculus on the fourth Chapter of the Ephesians thus writeth the places ar these That we are called in hope not in deede that the hope of future blessings is y e store of our faith as long as we are in this flesh for we are saued nondum in re sed in spe not yet in deede but in hope By all these scriptures it is manifest that our cosummation is in hope and not in deed as Musculus noteth neither shall be actually perfited vntil the day of iudgement Therfore I did with