themselues are excepted Whereof it commeth that the very same proiect is made to the Lordes of her Maiesties most honourable Councell which was deuised by Beza for Scotland vz. that in place of the Bishops there might be present in the parliament house some wise and graue Ministers of especiall gifts learning sorted out of all the land to yeld their Councell according to Gods heauenly lawe euen as the ciuill Iudges are readie to giue their aduise according to the temporall law and for matters of greater difficultie But would they sitte there as the Iudges doe and haue no voices I take it they would scorne that greatly For I nothing doubt but if they were there they would account themselues the wisest in the companie And therefore it was more substantially considered of by him who penned a Supplication to her Maiestie and wished That foure and twentie Doctors of Diuinitie to be called by such names as it should please hir highnes might be admitted into the Parliament house and haue their voyces there in steade of the Bishops And would they bee called Lords if it pleased her Maiestie for the honour of that house to appoynt it so Their wordes doe import so much and I make no doubt of it but that to gratifie her highnesse they would bee content to humble themselues so farre In the hope which they haue conceiued to ouerthrow the state of Bishoppes and to haue their deuise allowed of and established in the lande they inueigh most bitterly against the Bishoppes and the Conuocation house misliking that the dealing in ecclesiasticall causes should bee committed vnto them in sorte as now it is affirming that the liberties of the Parliament are thâ—reby betrayed and that it appertaineth to that Court to order matters of religion But what if the Bishops were excluded and none admitted into the Conuocation house but such as they woulde chuse from amongst themselues how then Indeed saith the Supplicator If the Conuocation house were such as it ought to bee c. then were it not lawfull for the Parliament to establish any thing in the matters appertaining to the pure worship of God but by theyr direction Which is this in effect if I vnderstand them that the Parliament should prouyde theyr new pretended gouernours of sufficient maintenance and set vp theyr Eldershippes and then enact it likewise that whatsoeuer they should ordaine in their assemblies and meetings for the time to come concerning Church causes should be in full strength and for euer obeyed vntill it might please them to make some alteration Which is the point that Knox aymed at in his Exhortation to England wherein for the good instruction of her Maiesties subiectes he sendeth them from Geneua these Allobrogicall rules That the pretended discipline ought to bee set vp that all Princes ought to submit themselues vnder the yoke of it that what Prince King or Emperour shall disanull the same he is to be reputed Gods enemie and to be helde vnworthie to raigne aboue his people and then sayth if such order were once established as there he prosecuteth and the discipline well executed accordingly theyr yearely comming to the Parliament for matters of religion shall bee superfluous and vayne And this also is playne by Cartwrights newe forme of discipline subscribed vnto by himselfe and his fellowes Which forme they haue auowed vppon theyr oathes to bee such as that they purposed to haue beene suitors to her Maiestie for the generall establishing of it In which their purpose if once they may preuayle there shall neuer Parliament bee troubled againe in matters of religion otherwise then as I sayde for making of lawes that the people may obey their orders For the whole gouernement is there ascribed vnto their Elderships other assemblies insomuch as the ciuill Magistrate is not once mentioned in it It is well knowne how vehement they haue been and still continue against the now Lord Archbishop of Canterbury in that he is one of her Maiesties most honourable priuie Councell accounting it vnlawful for a Bishop or Minister of the worde to holde anie such roome and authoritie And yet notwithstanding it is greatly allowed of liked that Beza in Geneua should be one of the Councel of that state there one of the threescore and they admit not anie into theyr Consistory so much as the meanest of their Aldermen but hee must bee eyther a Syndicke or one of the Councell of threescore or one of the Councell of two hundreth Now I cannot possibly be brought to thinke that the worde of God should deale so partially but that it may bee as lawfull heere as there if it please her Maiestie to haue a Bishop to bee one of her most honourable Councell It is apparant in the former Chapiter what little account they make of generall Councels The best are censured by them and reprooued It is not well borne by Cartwright that the Councell of Nice should be tearmed a famous Councell And for other Councels or Synodes they are scarcely reckoned to bee worthie the mentioning If you presse one of that forte with the authoritie of them all though hee be not thirty yeares of age hee will not sticke to make a tush at them and tell you that himselfe is of another opinion No decrees made by them will bind these fellowes And as touching our owne nationall Synodes and Parliaments they are prosecuted with the greatest contempt The reformation of religion made by that authoritie is tearmed a deformation The articles of religion are misliked in diuers points The Iniunctions Aduertisements Canons Orders Ceremonies and all thinges in a manner are despised by them For they are but mens preceptes forsooth euery man must trie them and keepe or allowe what he list at the least if hee will but pretend that hee dooth it of conscience Howbeit if they may haue once authoritie to establish their Elderships and to meete together in theyr classicall prouinciall or nationall assemblies there to make such lawes and orders as they shall thinke good then see I praye you how they chaunge theyr song Touching my departure from that holy assembly without leaue c. Icraue pardon Holy assembly It was a Conuenticle in London about the yeare 1584. I am ready to runne if the Church commaund according to the holy decrees and orders of discipline Holy decrees and orders The matter was for his going into the Lowe Countries with the Earle of Leicester and for his absence from his benefice To the determination of a nationall Synode men shall stande as it was at Ierusalem except it bee in a great matter of fayth or a great matter expressely against the Scriptures It was agreede vppon in the Northampton classis that concerning any matters of doctrine or about the sense of any place of Scriptures the brethren within that compasse must stande to the determination of that clâ—ssis And these are the
a sinne as no mā knoweth off but onlie he him selfe against whom it was committed Whereuppon it followeth of necessitie that when Christ sayth take with thee one or two c. for witnesses we must by those witnesses vnderstand witnesses of the admonition which he who taketh them with him must giue in theyr presence to the partie that had offended For witnesses of the fact they could not bee in that they saw it not So as both maister Caluin and Gallasius doe thinke that here Christ speaketh de testibus admonitionis of the witnesses of admonition And Gallasius amongst other reasons for him selfe alledgeth this Non dicit Christus voca testes qui rem viderint c. Christ sayth not call such witnesses as sawe the trespasse when it was committed but take one or two Vnus certe testis ad rem probandam non sufficeret but one witnes who may serue as after hee saith to prooue a mans contumacie or repentance is not sufficient to conuince a man of a fact if he deny that euer hee committed any such fact Maister Caluin being asked his iudgement hereof by the ministers of Neocomum as it seemeth writ vnto them after this sort Quod postea c. That which followeth vz. if hee heare thee not hoc nostro iudicio intelligendum est non de testibus delicti sed admonitionis This in our iudgement must bee vnderstoode not of the witnesses of the fact but of the admonition Against this interpretation heare now what Beza Alexander haue to saie If this interpretation saye they should bee good consider then what inconueniences would followe of it I will set downe two and so referre you to Beza for the rest It maye fall out oftentimes saie they in effect that the partie delinquēt confessing his fact to him that came first vnto him to admonish him of it wil afterwards when he shal bring one or two witnesses with him denie that euer hee eyther did or confessed anye such deed And what then Besides it maie well inough come to passe that hee vnto whom a man shall come in such a charitable sorte to admonish him maie burst foorth into a choller and saie that hee is slaundered and so calling the said man for his godly minde into the law as a slaunderer make them witnesses of his pretended slaunder that came to be witnesses of his admonition For these reasons therefore and for some other Beza and Alexander will not admit that Christ should speake heere of such priuate offences as none knew but one but of such us that there might bee some witnesses of them if the offenders should denie them So as now in both their iudgements Christ doth speake in this place de testibus facti of the witnesses of the fact Peraduenture you can bee heere content to heare some aunswere to these obiections They seeme to bee of great difficultie and to carrie some matter with them which may preiudice mayster Caluin and Gallasius But what should men talke of difficulties when the trueth appeareth Incommoda et inconuenientia non soluunt regulam Incommodities and inconueniences doe not sayth Gallasius dissolue a generall rule It maye bee that the partye maie denie his facte as it hath beene sayde If hee doe hee is to bee lefte to the great Iudge Yea but hee will take the Lawe against the Admonitioner as a slaunderer of him Hee maie doe so indeede sayth Gallasius againe and I haue seene experience of it And there is no other remedie but this the graue men that were brought to bee witnesses of the admonition must tell the Iudge the whole matter and for what purpose they were brought to the plaintiffe Whereby the Iudge maye easilye vnderstande the iniurie offered and then if he fauour the Church hee will send the partye to the Eldershippe or Ecclesiasticall Senate or else vz. in effect that the defendaunt in that action must beare it off with his heade and shoulders It is no meruayle then you see that our reforminge Generation should crie out so mightelie for the newe forme of discipline it is so substantially compact together and at such great vnitie in it selfe Vnto these caterbraules and pittifull distractions I might adde a great heape of other confusions all of them proceedinge from such intollerable presumption as is vsed in the behalfe of that Minion by the peruertinge and false interpretation of the sacred Scriptures But I haue been too tedious alreadie in this matter and therefore to grow towardes an ende of it Of all the places of Scripture which they pretende to make for such partes of their discipline as is disliked by the Church of Englande as either for their Iewish Sanedrim their parish Bishops their vnpriestlie Aldermen with their priestlye functions their Geneuian presbyteries or Elderships of all the places of scripture I saie which they bring for that purpose I professe vnto you as in the presence of God that I cannot find anie one but by one meanes or other they haue cast such a colour vpon it as was neuer knowen in the Church of Christ amongst all the auncient godly Fathers from the Apostles times till these our troublesome and presumptuous daies Well It is not inough for men to alledge scriptures except they bring the true meaning of the Scriptures For as Saint Augustine saith Heresies and erroneous opinions doe not otherwise spring and grow vp nisi dum Scripturae bonae intelliguntur non bene quod in eis non bene intelligitur etiam temerè audaciter asseritur but when the good Scriptures are not well vnderstood and because that which is not well vnderstoode in them is notwithstanding rashlye and boldly affirmed to be the meaning of them There was neuer anie thing hitherto so fondly deuised but the authors of it did euer pretend they had Scripture for it For else saith Sainct Ierome the garrulity of such persons non haberet fidem would neuer haue wonne any credite All sectes and Schismes haue risen for the most part vppon discontentment And this a man may obserue in the writinges of the auncient Fathers that as many men doe marrie and so beget children before they know how to keepe them so commonly it hath fallen out in new strange opinions Through pride and vanitie they haue beene rashlie begotten before the authors of them did know how to maintaine them Marrie when once they had engaged their credits by broching of this and that then they euer laboured not to submitt them-selues and their opinions vnto the trueth Sed vt sibi scriptur as ipsi subijcerent but as Augustine saith that they might bringe the scriptures to bee in subiection to them Of the which kinde of men Saint Hilary also speakinge sayth that they interpret the Scriptures pro voluntatis suae sensu according to such a sense as may serue their turnes c. Which is as the same Hilary sheweth in another place non expectare
of which their allobrogicall food so much as concerneth this poynt of the disciplinarian reformation that I may omitt their desperate poyntes of deposinge of Princes and of putting them to death in diuerse cases of resistance against reformation was this that if the soueraine magistrates refused to admitt it the ministers the inferior magistrates the people c. might set it on foote themselues Of these and such like arguments diuerse bookes were allowed of by the ministers of Geneua to bee then printed there in English and to be published for Englande and Scotland as conteyning such doctrine in them wherof the worlde might take notice that as they had practised some parte of it themselues so they would be ready vpon all occasions to iustifie it I haue heard many greately commende the intertainement that was giuen in Queene Maries time to Englishmen at Geneua And surely the citizens there are in mine opinion to be greatly commended and assisted for it as occasions shall require But yet to speake what I thinke it had beene better for this Iland that neither Englishman nor Scottishman had euer beene harbored or acquainted there in respect of such disciplinarian new lessons consistoriall practises as they haue brought with them from thence If euer you meete with the historie of the Church of Scotland penned by maister Knox printed by Vautrouillier reade the pages quoted here in the margent likewise peruse the English Chronicles of Scotland as they stand corrected by some men of good experience and credite appointed for that purpose in the places also noted but especially procure for your perfect instruction the Acts of the Parliament helde in Scotland 1584. as they are printed and are abroad in many mens hands and then tell me whether you be not of my minde for the fruict of maister Knox his being at Geneua I could referre you to some other Bookes but those shall suffice For there you shall finde that the whole course which hath been held in that country concerning the points I speake of was complotted at Geneua amongst the ministers there and Caluin is named There you shall finde the forme of the Consistoriall pretended Discipline being sette vp without publicke consent ouerthrowen by Act of Parliament and afterward restored againe you may see how As soone as this saide pretended discipline began to get a head in that Countrey then againe as amongest certaine of the Frenche Ministers no forme of Seruice or of the administration of the Sacramentes no orders nor any thing else but all must be done as it was at Geneua As any doubts did arise amongest them concerning any Church-causes though they were but very simple such as a student of meane capacity and iudgement might very easely haue satisfied yet no man but maister Caluin for his time and afterwards maister Beza as though they had beene such Peters for the Protestants as the Bishop of Rome pretendeth himselfe to be for all Papists was accounted of sufficiency or able to dissolue them when they had ouerthrowen the auncient state of theyr Bishops and set vp the Geneua minion by such means as you haue heard and had so farre preuailed therein as that now they began to please themselues exceedingly See how Beza being informed thereof doth allow of their dealings incourageth them to goe forewarde in such their obedient right Consistorian courses He tearmeth their reformation after the Geneua mould if I vnderstand him Caelum in terris situm a Heauen placed in the earth or at the least he compareth the force which had beene vsed about that matter to the power of God He saith that no nation in so few yeares had abidden more assaultes of Sathan to haue hindered the saide pretended Discipline and thanketh God that Knox is theyr Pilotte to guide that ship He exhorteth the said Pilot and his fellow marriners that seeing they had both pure Religion and pure Discipline now amongest them they should keepe them both together and neuer suffer as though they had beene all of them Princes the authority of Bishops in any wise to be restored againe Afterwarde there being some new attempt made as it seemeth in the behalfe of the Bishops and as I perceiue defeated by the pretended reformers vppon information thereof giuen by one Lawson a minister to Beza he returneth him an aunswere beginning in this sorte though he were then sicke Beastime you haue made me an happy man The same yeare also he writte the discourse of his three kinde of Bishops vz. of God of men and of the Diuell and sent it vnto a man of great state in that countrey It hath since beene translated into English by Field as I take it for our instruction in England Wherein Beza dealeth I wil not say like what kinde of Bishop but rather like some new start-vp Oracle and dissolueth questions Pellmell vz. that all Bishops other then such as haue an equality amōgst them and such as he alloweth and requireth that euery minister should be must of necessity be packing that the chiefe Elders should be admitted to be present in their Parliaments as the Bishops were to deale in Church-causes and to aunswere in place of God if any other matters fell out wherein the Lordes would be resolued that Papistes may not to be excommunicated what sinne soeuer they committe and that it is Sacriledge for any lay person and such a sinne as God will reuenge to staine his handes with the goodes of the Church He further prescribeth the whole course of the church gouernment for that kingdome to be fashioned after the platforme of Geneua taking much more vppon him therein then Eleutherius the Bishop of Rome would doe hauing a farre better occasion offered him by the king of Britaine Lucius Who after hee had newly receaued the Gospell mouing the saide Bishop in respect of his great fame by his Embassadors to prescribe vnto him some orders for the Churches within his Realme he returned vnto him this aunswere in effect that the King being Christes Vicar and hauing the Scriptures he the saide Bishop would not presume to prescribe any thing vnto him but leaue him to be directed by them Such an answer as this had beene more fitte for a man of Bezaes place then in such a pope-like manner to forbid and prescribe lawes to such a kingdome But I will leaue these and such like Geneuian dealinges in that part of this Iland because peraduenture they are desired to be continued there still and come vnto the Geneuating for the selfe same platforme of discipline here at home amongest our selues As soone as her maiesty whom Almighty God longe preserue to raigne ouer vs was come to the Crown word was sent into this Realme from Geneua in a Booke printed there 1559. that those Princes that would liue without the yoke of Discipline meaning that Geneuian forme were to be reputed for Gods ennemies and therefore vnworthy to
oppression as the Israelites were in it is altogether vnlike that they should haue the benefites of Magistrates of their owne Indeede now he hath won his spurs In effect all that he saith is but thus much It is likely that the Elders he buildeth vppon were such officers as hee dreameth of It is likely It is probable Well I trust the vizards of such maskers will be so throughly weatherbeaten in short time as that the simplest will be able to discerne their deformities For in this cause assuredly they pretending onely probabilities all probabilities indeede are flatly against them Is it probable if Christ had appointed any such gouernment as they speake of to haue continued to the end of the world or if the Apostles themselues had ordayned or practised it in their times that all the auncient Martyrs Councels and godly Fathers would with one consent haue abolished it It is probable Moyses being so carefull as it is to another purpose by thē alledged that he would not omit to signifie vnto his people euen the smallest matters that God gaue him in charge till he came to their basons besomes and pinnes about the Tabernacle that he woulde haue made no mention of such a waighty point as this is pretended to be if the Lord had euer giuen him commaundement for the institution of it Is it likely Moyses so ofte speaking of the institution of the publicke courts for Iustice and correction of manners amongst the Iewes which he knew were but to continue vntil the cōming of Christ that he would haue beene silent as touching the institution of this spirituall gouernement which should haue lasted till the day of iudgement if he had receaued any such Commission To draw therefore to an end of this point The institution of this pretended gouernment cannot be shewed out of the old Testament and then by theyr owne confessions in effect it may not be vrged out of the new Because they say that Christ appointed no other forme of regiment then they thought they could haue found to haue beene instituted by Moyses But my conclusion shal be built vppon one of Vdals demonstratiue propositions vz. That gouernement whose originall is vnknowen hath no warrant in Gods word and is vnlawfull But the originall of the Geneua platforme of Discipline is vnknowen therefore it hath no warrant in Gods word and is vnlawfull And thus you see that as I sayd in the beginning the first time that euer this fained Geneuian deuise saw light for ought I can read or iudge was at Geneua Whether for my part I doe remitte it again to see if they can deduce the pedigree of it from any further Monuments of antiquity or that else they may blotte it out of their now deuised Creede whereof you shall heare hereafter CHAP. VI. The seekers of the pretended Discipline are not yet agreede what name they should giue vnto their Hierarchicall parish-meetinges THings for the most part are not long in being before they haue their names In that therefore the name of this pretended gouernement is so vncertaine as now I shall shew you it argueth in my opinion that it is but a counterfaite The time was not long after the creation of all kind of cattell and of the fowles of the Heauen and of the beastes of the field but they were brought to Adam to giue them theyr names And I am perswaded the like course hath still been euer obserued that in a manner as soone as thinges haue had their being they haue also had their names giuen thē or at the least they haue not beene long without them Let Cartwright then first tell vs here if he will still relie vppon his likelihood mentioned in the former Chapter What was the name of his Ecclesiasticall Hierarchy before the law But you shall finde him herein as mute as a fish Marry if you will come to the time of the law when forsooth as Beza saith it was instituted then both he Beza and diuerse others will soone satisfie any man that will not bee wilfull What will they shew it vs in the old Testament Surely the chiefest of them haue not yet done it neyther will they euer be able as I thinke to doe it And therefore they are driuen to seeke it in the Iewes Talmud which is saith Beza blasphemus liber a blasphemous booke Would a man haue thought that men so curious to admitte of nothing that is not in the Scriptures would haue stooped so low as to the Talmud I cannot thinke that seeing Almighty God would not suffer the beastes of the earth and fowls of the aire to be without their names past two or three daies that he could be content that such an excellent creature as this is pretended to bee shoulde be without a name so many hundreth yeares as from Moyses time vntill the Iewes Talmud was made I trust no man will say that Moyses was in this point vnfaithfull or that the Lorde bringing it vnto him to know how he would call it he obstinately refused to giue it any name Peraduenture Moyses a ciuile Magistrate foreseeing that this regiment was to be placed in euery parish or Synagogue and that so he himselfe should become subiect vnto it did seeke to disgrace it as much as he could and therefore left it namelesse Indeed that is an exception which the Atturnies for it in these dayes doe make in effect against such Christian Princes and magistrates as doe refuse to admitte it within their dominions But to come to the name which they finde in the Talmud They say it was called amongest the Iewes Sanedrim a corrupt worde by them vsed that was degenerated from the true Greeke name 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which Beza doth translate Councell A strange thing that the Hebrew tong should be so penurious as that it was not able to afforde an Hebrewe name to suche a worthy regiment or that it shoulde bee namelesse vntill the Iewes and the Gretians had such familiar intercourse as that they eyther coulde or would vouchsafe to borow any thing from them which as most men thinke was not till Alexanders time or not much before But straunge or not straunge be it as it may be By this doctrine then of the Talmud and maister Bezaes translation shall wee tearme this parochiall regiment a Councell and the Gouernours therein how manie soeuer so manie Councellors Surely this were greatly to the honour of England and to the benefite of her Maiesties subiectes For whereas nowe they haue many occasions to come to the Court to their Lordships for the redresse of manie great enormities they should haue a Councell table to repayre vnto in euerie Parrishe But it will heere bee aunswered peraduenture that wee may not call it a Councell For that our Sauiour Christ minding as they say to translate the forme of the Iewes ecclesiasticall gouernement tearmed Sanedrim from the lawe to the Gospell vsed not that name of Councell but
Princes and other of the Nobilitie that follow the court to haue particular Consistories in their priuate houses consisting euerie one of a minister and some of the honestest of their Families Here are then Consistories to be erected in the church according to Cartwrightes thirde acceptation of the word church that is in priuat houses and likewise a Parish not of many but of one familie And peraduenture in time it may so come about as that this will bee currant doctrine in Englande not onely for Noblemen to haue Elderships in their priuate houses but for Gentlemen likewise For now it is already groen thus farre that many of both sortes yea some but meane gentlemē will haue their seueral ministers for comming to their parish churches though they be hard by their dores they account it a dishonorable matter their parlor-seruice and priuate speaking as they terme it pleaseth them best I might here adde howe D. Sohnius is bolde to dissent from Cartwright where speakinge of the diuerse significations of the worde church hee sayth Particularis c. The particuler church is deuided and hath her name agreeable to the diuersitye of places that is Nations Prouinces Townes Parishes Houses or Families For so there is a church of one Prouince of one Citie of one towne of one house And so he quoteth many places of scripture for this his assertion But to proceede Danaeus a man as well learned for ought is yet seene as Cartwright is doth not thinke that by the institution of Christ there must needes bee an Eldership not onely in euery Citie but in euery vplandish and countrie towne also For he sayth if I vnderstand him that in the Apostles times the ruling Elders of whom the Eldership is chiefely named was vsed to be established in vnaquaque tantū ciuitate in qua erat ampla et populosa ecclesia et magnus fideliū numerus In euery city onely where the church was populous In which citye hee further addeth quaeque ciuitatis et ecclesiae pars seu paroecia suū habebat presbyterum Euery parish had a priest or minister as the parishes in the countrie had also oppidatim that is towne by towne a priest much like to those whom we call in our times Curatores Curates Furthermore also the reforming ministers of Scotlande do account their platforme now in practice there to be as agreeable to the worde of God as M. Cartwrightes and yet as the Chronicles do report they haue but 52. Elderships in Scotland those placed in their chiefest cities and great townes Vnto euerie of which Elderships as I am informed 24. particular churches or parishes for the most part do appertaine none of them hauing any such particular Eldership of their owne but are ruled controled and censured by those in the sayde cities or townes whereunto they are adioyned and subiect In the Low countries it is true that euerie parish hath her Eldership But what a kinde of Eldership Heare a verie learned and a graue man of that countrie Ruri in pagis c. In the countrie villages in some places they haue but a Pastor one Elder and a Deacon In Gaunt euerye parish likewise had theyr Eldership consisting of moe or fewer as the quantitie of them were besides those there was a consistorye for the whole citie All which particular Elderships in the countrye cities when any matters of greater momēt fell out especially for excōmunicatiō Ea potestas nulli particulari ecclesiae concessa est that power or authoritie is graunted to no particular church sine concilio et assensu generalis consistorij in magna vrbe et in pagis et oppidulis colloquij siue classis without the councel and consent of the generall consistorye in cities great townes of the conference or classis in the country townes villages So as here we find a number of Christs kingdoms set vp but they want their scepter power without the which our men would not giue a pinne for all the rest For so they are vnperfect maymed bodies of Christ. But to come to that which is the patterne of all right church regiment euen to the Eldership of Geneua There are in that citie as I haue heard foure or fiue great parishes and in the territorie belonging vnto it almost 20. and yet for the censuring and guiding of them all they haue but one Eldership according as it seemeth to the Iewish order there being in Ierusalem but one Sanedrim yet many Synagogues Of the which Geneuian reformation it may iustly be affirmed if Cartwright his fellowes with vs say truly first that the church of Geneua hath neglected the commandement of God the institution of Christ the commaundement and practise of the Apostles in that there is not placed an Eldershippe there in euery parish secondly that the sayd church being neither the catholicke church nor one particular parish nor the faithfull company of one familie cannot rightly haue so much as the name of the church nor be truely termed the well squared bodye of Christ with all the true dimensions and limites of it And certaynely there is here no starting hole as farre as I can discerne for the excuse of that Reformation and platforme except it maye bee iustified that all these foure or fiue and twentie parishes or there aboutes are so trussed together that they doe and maie all at once meet in one Congregation are taught with one mouth which to affirme besides that their practise is otherwise will bee thought I trust great boldnes vnlesse they can find a pastor with Stentors voyce who by report could make as great a noise as fifty men I cannot chuse but put you heere in minde of a poynte in Maister Cartwright that seemeth verie strange vnto mee Hee sayth that there were moe that did externally professe Christ in the Apostles times then there are nowe insomuch as wee are not nowe the tithe of them that is the tenth parte Nowe set these thinges together The Church in the Scriptures where it signifieth not the Catholique Church nor one priuate familye doth signifye one particular congregation and no moe are rightlye to bee of one congregation then maye at once bee taught by one mouth And thereuppon will it not followe that if the Apostles were as wise as Mayster Cartwright to bounde their Congregations whereas there is mention in the Scriptures of the Church of Rome of the Church of Corinth of the Church of Antioche of the Church of Ephesus of the Church of Ierusalem we must thinke there were no moe christians there in any one of those Cities then might at one time heare one preacher And by that account there are moe christians within the citie of London the suburbs thé were in al those cities twise as many more Which if M. Cartwright will deny to be true he must needs cōses for the credit of Scotland or of
stand in their own c̄oceit that they feare not to speak euill of th̄e that are in dignitie authoritye likewise of those things that they know not that they vse swelling words of vanitie that they beguile vnstable soules that they seperate them selues from other and that they haue not the spirit It will not surely serue their turnes one day to saye that in such their wilfull opposing of themselues as it were against heauen in such their outragious rayling and bitternesse against so holy a calling they followed certaine of their bretheren the ministers in Scotland or in the lowe countries or in Geneua For in this vaine they haue exceeded them all especially them of the two countries last mentioned Maister Caluin although after his restitution to Geneua he might be thought to haue had some harder opinion of Bishopps then he had before yet if you compare him with these fellowes you would thinke him an especiall fauourer and defender of them He could well enough indure it◠to vse these honorable tearmes to Archbishop Cranmer Illustrissime domine clarissime presul et mihi ex animo reuerende commendinge his authoritie his wisdome and his integritie desiringe him to put them all in practise for the benefit of the Church And in his letter to the King of Polonia he sheweth himselfe to be far from Cartwrights minde vz. that the Popes authoritie is more necessary ouer all Churches then the authoritie of an Archbishopp ouer a prouince and that neither of them can discharge so great an office For there writinge against the pope he propoundeth to the Kinges consideration the auncient forme of church-gouernment by Archbishops tearminge it a moderate honor meaninge therby as I take it the preheminence and authoritie which Archbishops then had as beinge limited for the execution of it within the compasse of mans power wheras the Popes pretended authoritie beinge of so large an extent as comprehending the whole world could not possibly be executed by any man liuinge But yet I am short of M. Caluins moderatiō in this matter for discoursing of the state of the auncient churches before the time of popery of Bishops Archbishops and patriarches their authority and superiority in their circuites dioces and prouinces he vseth these modest speeches Although the Bishops of those times did set foorth many canons wherin they might be thought to expresse more then is expressed in the scriptures yet they framed their whole gouernement according to the onely rule of gods word with that caution vt facilè videas nihil fere hac parte habuisse a verbo Dei alienum that you may easily see there was nothing almost in this behalfe disagreeing from the word of God If there may be found any imperfection in the orders which they made yet they indeuoured with a sincere studie to keepe the institution of God from the which nō multum aberrarunt they swarued not much And a little after the elders that were ministers of the worde did choose one from amongst them-selues in euery Cittie vnto whom especially they gaue the title of Bishop Ne ex aequalitate vt fieri solet dissidia nascerentur least by aequalitie as it vsually happeneth dissentions should arise As touching the beginning of this order he agreeth with S. Ierome that it hath continued in the Church since S. Markes time And saith he that euery prouince had her Archbishop that also in the Nicene Councel Patriarches were appointed who were in order and degree aboue Archbishops Id ad disciplinae conseruationem pertinebat It did pertaine to the preseruation of discipline But his conclusion is yet more full and differeth but a little if it differ at all from that which the learneder sort in England doe now maintaine with all antiquitie For speaking of the forme of gouernment so framed as is said in the councel of Nice he vseth these wordes Si rem intuemur reperiemus veteres Episcopos non aliam regendae ecclesiae formam voluisse fingere ab ea quam Deus verbo suo praescripsit if we looke to the forme of gouernment it selfe we shall finds that the auncient Bishoppes would not deuise another forme of churchregiment differing from that which God hath prescribed in his word And thus you may perceaue what great difference there is betwixt our mens spirites and Maister Caluins their outrage and his modestie their pride and his humilitie their rashnes ignorance and giddines and his sobrietie learning and iudgment The forme of ecclesiasticall gouernment agreed vpon in the councell of Nice differeth not from that which God hath prescribed and who then but men that haue shamelesse foreheads dare so incounter it But it may peraduenture be sayd that howsoeuer Caluin did carrie himselfe in this cause yet Beza is of an other opinion Indeed he is so but it turneth more more dayly to his own discredit He succeeded Maister Caluin in place but neither in his learning nor in all his vertues And I do attribute it vnto his want of iudgment that he hath shewed himselfe such a busie body where he had nothing to doe It is chiefly he that hath set the pretended reformers in this whole land so much a gogge against Bishops by his secret letters and other disordered writinges of incouragement vnto them And yet forsooth he can write to other men and pretend the quite contrarie Consider the processe following and then if I be too blame thus to write of him tell me of it In one of his epistles dated 1570. he affirmeth that Archbishops Primates are a shadowe and image of the policy of Roome that they are petty tyrantes in respect of the Pope and that although the names be neuer soe auntient yet it ought to haue beene enquired whether it were lawful to bring them into the church c. It had beene a maruailous beneficiall matter to all posteritie that Beza had beene the commaunder at Geneua in the times of the Primitiue church that so the learend graue fathers of those ages might haue inquired this point of him knowen his pleasure In the yeare 1572. it seemed good vnto him as it hath beene said before to write his letter into this Iland to Knox the reformer in Scotland at what time the Bishops there had receaued the Gospell at the least many of them as I thinke though it woulde not serue their turne to keepe them in their places In which letter amongst many other good consistorian documents hee writeth thus But I would haue you and the other brethren to remember that which is before your eies as Bishops brought foorth the Papacy so false or counter set Bishops the reliques of Popery will bring in Epicurisme They that desire the churches good let them take heede of this pestilence And seeing you haue put that plague in Scotland to flight quaeso c. I hartily pray you that you neuer suffer it againe vnder any pretence or color of keepinge
you of vs or least those things which we haue written of Ecclesiasticall policie properly against that Antichristian tyrannie as necessitie required are taken by some in that sense as if euer we had meant to compel to our order those churches that thinke otherwise then we doo of it and the gouernors of them agreeing els with vs in the truth of doctrine agreeable to the word of God and that except they followed our order we accounted otherwise of them then their godlines and dignitie and mutuall brotherhood doth require c. Farre be this arrogancie from vs. Quis vllum nobis in vllam Ecclesiam imperium tribuit Who doth giue vs authority ouer anie church Far be it from vs that we should thinke so the substantiall matters be kept there ought nothing to be graunted to antiquitie nothing to custome nothing to the circumstances of places times and persons c. Againe in his booke against D. Sarauia hauing spoken of the tyrannie of Popish Bishops hee maketh this exception Neque tamen But wee doo not therefore accuse all Archbishops and Bishops now so called of tyranie For what arrogancie were that Nay so as they doo imitate the examples of the olde holy Bishops and indeuor as much as they can to reforme the house of God so miserably deformed according to the rule of Gods word why may we not acknowledge al of them now so called Archbishops and Bishops obey them and honor them with all reuerence So far we are from that which some obiect vnto vs most falsly and most impudently as though we tooke vppon vs to prescribe to anie Church in anie place our examples to be followed like vnto those vnwise men who account wel of nothing but of that which they doo themselues And to the same effect a little before If now the reformed Churches of England being vnderpropped with the authoritie of Bishoppes and Archbishops do continue as this hath happened to that Church in our memorie that she hath had men of that calling not onely most notable martyrs of God but also excellent pastors and doctors Fruatur sane ista singulari dei benificentia quae vtinam illi sit perpetua Let her truly inioy this singular blessing of God which I wish may be perpetuall vnto her Furthermore it should seeme that Zanchius as moderate and learned a man as euer fauoured the pretended Elderships was appointed some 12 or 16. yeres since to draw a confâ—ssion of religion for the Churches of France others as Melanchthon had done the Augustan confession for Germanie Accordingly hee drew it and in the same speaking of Bishops he vseth these wordes Non improbamius patres c. Wee doo not disalow the fathers in that after a diuers waie of dispensing the word and gouerning the Church they multiplied diuerse orders of Ministers seeing it was lawfull for them so to do as it is vnto vs and seeing it appeareth that they did it for honest causes appertaining at that time to the order decencie and edification of the Church And in the next article Hac ratione c. By this reason vz. that the nurseries of dissentions and of schismes may be taken away wee thinke that these thinges which were ordained before the Councell of Nice concerning Archbishops nay as touching the foure Patriarches may be excused and defended When this booke was perused and this clause found in it then forsoth a deuise was had for the staying of it vnder pretence that now it was thought more meete that there should be a harmonie made of all the confessions of diuers churches But Zanchius himselfe maketh this the chiefe cause if I vnderstand him why his booke dyd mislike some of them for that hee had written as before is mentioned of Bishops For so hee sayth Magnus quidam vir c. A certaine great man meaning Beza as it is supposed did write vnto mee of this matter as followeth Your confession was read by mee and N. others with great delight It is written most learnedly and in a most exquisite methode and if you except that which you adde towards the end touching Archbishops and the Hierarchie mihi summopere placuit it pleased mee exceedingly Vpon this occasion as it seemeth Zanchius printed his said confession with certaine annotations In the which annotations he sheweth three reasons for his allowance of Archbishops Bishops The first is grounded vpon the practise of the primitiue church presently after the Apostles times the second is for that hee thought it his dutie in the draught of his said booke to haue regard to those reformed churches which retaine both Bishops Archbishops and the third because all the reformed Churches generally although they haue chaunged the names yet in effect they doe keepe the authoritie as where they haue superintendents and generall superintendents Nay saith he where these new base Latine names are not admitted Ibi tamen solent esse aliquot primarij penes quos fere tota est authoritas yet there are in those places vsually certaine chiefemen that doe in a manner beare all the sway But I pray you be pleased that I may deliuer vnto you the maner of his setting down of his first reason and that in his owne words for they carry with them a notable condemnation of other mens great pride rashnes Cum haenc conscriberem fidei confessionem c. When I writ this confession of faith I writ all the thinges in it of a good conscience and as I beleeued so I freely spake the scriptures teaching men so to doe And my faith first of all and simply doth rely vpon the word of God then somewhat also vpon the common consent of the whole ancient Catholicke Church if the same bee not repugnant to the scriptures For I beleeue that what thinges were defined and receiued by the auncient Fathers assembled in the name of the Lord with a generall consent of them all and without any contradiction of the holy Scriptures the same surely although they be not of the same authoritie with holy Scriptures yet did they proceed from the holy Ghost Heereof it commeth to passe that those things which are of this nature neither would I neither dare I with a good conscience disallow them And what can be shewed more certainly out of histories out of the councels out of the writings of all the ancient fathers then that those orders of Ministers of the which we haue spoken haue bene ordained and receiued in the Church by the generall consent of all christian common-wealths And who then am I that should presume to reproue that which the whole Church hath approued This is true and religious humilitie Thus all graue and discreet godly men haue euerwritten Those that contemne all the learned Fathers that went before them doe open a windowe to their owne discredite by those that shall come after them That which this godly and great learned man ascribeth to the
Except Maister Bezaes collection prooue to bee authenticall and then their number will bee greate You haue hearde that wee must haue the forme of the Iewes Sanedrim or Counsell in euerie Parish And in that sayth Beza there were twentie foure Ecclesiasticall Iudges By which account abating the Pastor and the Doctor there ought to bee two and twentie Elders in euerie parish You shall heare Bezaos wordes and how heegathereth that there was such a number There is mention made in the Apoca. of a throne vppon the which Christ sitteth and of the foure and twenty Seates about it whereupon foure twentie Elders sate who were cloathed in white rayment and had on their heades Crownes of golde Now sayth Beza concerning the said number mentioned of ecclesiasticall Iudges 24. numero fuisse c That they were in number 24. that is to saie two of euery Tribe it seemeth it may be gathered out of the Apocalyps where certum est it is certaine that those heauenly visions were framed or accommotated to the forme of the Israeliticall Church Where by the way it would be obserued what a glorious church-regemēt we are in time to looke for Our Elderships must be framed after the fashion of the Elderships which were amongst the Iewes And if we doubt of the state and forme of the Iewes elderships we must haue recourse to the Apocalips where the glorie of Christ his Saints in the kingdome of heauen is set forth And agreeablie to those heauenly thrones we must set vp thrones for our 24. Elders in euery parish For this Beza is certaine of that the heauenlye visions in the Apocalyps were agreable to the forme of the ecclesiasticall regiment in Israell But as touching the number of his elders he is not as yet for any thing I perceaue so throughly resolued And therefore we are at libertie till wee heare to the contrary from him to place moe or fewer in euery parish as we list At Geneua they haue but 12. Elders And they either haue or had once in Edenburgh as many Likewise euery parish must haue certaine Deacons They had once in Edenburgh as I remēber 16. Deacons And concerning widdowes if they will vrge vs with the examples of the Apostles times and withall in like manner presse vs with their own expositiōs then there must be a College of widdowes in euery parish So the grounds of Geneua diuinitie tell vs so doth Beza likewise if I vnderstand them And all these how many i◠euer it shall please our reformers to impose vpon euery parish pastor or pastors Doctor Elders Deacons widdowes must all of thē be found by the same parish For the ministers of the worde there was neuer doubt made amongst thē but that they ought to haue their maintenaunce of the parish and so likewise must the poore widdows But as touching the rest there hath been made some questiō It was a good deuise of Beza that princes noblemē might be elders so was it of our learned Discourser that the worshipfull gentlemē of euery parish might be chosē Deacons The rby indeed the parishes might saue charges For if they be able to liue of themselues then they must not burden the parish in Cartwrightes opinion but serue vpon their own charges The Elders at Geneua being all of them states-men I meane such as be of their Senates men conueniently able to liue of thēselues haue no allowance for any thing that I can find But where the Elders are poore men so as their attending vpon their offices might greatly hinder them then M. Cartwright hath decided the question affirmeth by S. Paules Rule as he saith that they ought to bee plentifully maintained by the Church How far this word plentifully will be extended I know not But a man may gesse The humble motioner would haue the Pastor and Teacher in euerye parish to haue allowed vnto thē two hundred pounds yearly in chiefer places more and in none lesse then two hundred markes By which rate I imagine that their Elders being so great men by their office and the gouernors of the parish cannot well be alowed vnder fortie pound a peece yearely The deacons that carrie the purse if they be not well looked vnto will bee their owne caruers but surely their stipend will be for euerie one of them aboue fortie markes As for the Widdowes they cannot well liue to attende the sicke and wash the Saincts feete with lesse then twentie nobles a yeare how many of them so euer they are All which summes being cast together will prooue a rancke charge to be imposed vpon euery parish But yet this is not all For how shall the pastors doctors wiues and children liue when their husbands and parents are deade This is also foreseene Prouision must be made not only for the ministers sustentatiō during their liues but also for their wiues and children after them For we iudge it a thing most contrarious to reason godlines equitie that the widow and children of him who in his life time did faithfully serue the church of God should after his death bee left comfortles of all prouision In what sort these widdows are to bee relieued I finde not anye particulars of it But they maie not bee of the number of the Church officers except they be threescore yeares of age or haue some priuileges by their late husbands for those roomes And as touching the childrē of ministers this order is required for thē that the men childrē may haue the liberties of the cities adiacent where their fathers labored freely graunted thē that they be sustained at learning if they be foūd apt therto and fayling thereof that they bee put to some handicraft or exercise in some vertuous industrye and likewise for the women children that they be vertuously brought vp honestly doted when they come to maturity of yeares at the discretion of the Church c. Not at the peoples discretiō who must bear the charge but as it shall please their Elderships to taxe them Furthermore and besides the officers and charges mentioned it is also ordered by the new Booke of our Englishe Discipline that there ought to be in euery parishe a Colledge or certaine number of young Diuines such as are meet for the exercises to Diuinity and especially to expound the Scriptures whereby they may bee trained vp by preaching And all these must be likewise maintained diuitum liberalitate by the liberality of the richer Here you see is charge vppon charge But indeede it were a notable matter to haue a Colledge of young Prophets in euerie parishe In the Vniuersities there are Schooles for reading of Lectures and for disputatiōs but as our platformers tell vs these their parish Schooles of Diuinitie are chiefly for preaching They must preach priuatly amongst themselues by course and hauing an auncienter Diuine with them I suppose it will fall to the Pastors lotte they are
then you perceiue what Bezaes distinction meaneth with what good discretion both hee and his followers will needs make two Courts of that which was but one It is a very great maruel that any wise men should insist vpon these so apparant and childish fooleries In all the Courtes I thinke in the world since there haue beene anie the same that were Iudges of the lawe were Iudges likewise to trie the fact except it be in England And yet heere also euen in the triall of factes by twelue men we haue not two Courts for one matter but all the euidence witnesses and whatsoeuer else that doth appertaine for the finding out of the fact are brought before the Iudges of the law They sift and examine euerie point and circumstance that so the Iurie may bee fully informed and they are indeede the chiefe directors as it is meete in the whole matter And as it is and hath beene in all the worlde so it was in all the Courtes appointed either by Moses or by King Iehosophat in Iewrie It is true that all difficulties that did rise amongst the Iudges of inferior Courts in the country whether they were of law or facts and likewise all appellations from lower Courts did belong to the high Court at Ierusalem to bee heard and determined But doth that proue one Court to bee two Nay it is most apparant that if they will needs fetch their Elderships from the Iewes Synedria they may challenge to themselues aswell the ciuill gouernement of the common-wealth as the ecclesiasticall of the church For so was the forme of gouernmeÌ„t then according to the testimonies of scripture of all the Iewes the Rabbines the Talmudists Iosephus others And I greatly doe suspect it that in time they will begin to claime it I find them so wauering and vncertaine in this matter As yet fiâ— they cannot abide to heare of it But obserue them how they stagger Beza in his booke against Erastus whereunto hee himselfe and seuenteene other Ministers of Geneua subscribed and which was the booke indeed that Erastus did confute both he they all of them were in doubt of this point An verò ciuilem aliquam coÌ„eÌ„rtionem habuerit ex iure ecclesiasticum illuà apud Iudaeos synedâ—ion definire vix possumus habuisse tamen posterioribus saltem temporibus negare nec si velimus possumus c. We can scarcely define whether the ecclesiasticall Eldership amongst the Iewes had any authoritie of right to vse ciuill punishments that it had at the least in the later times if we would denie it we cannot It is very well said And then I trust it will be confessed that as long as that authoritie continued hee had beene a fond man that should but once haue dreamed of the former distinction of making one Court two vz. the one of fact and the other of law and of dealing in ciuill causes ecclesiastically or I know not how Yea saith Beza but though they had such authoritie probabile est it is probable that it was procured ambitione maximorum pontificum by the ambition of the high priests How like you this When he is so pressed both by scriptures and with other authoritie that hee cannot chuse but confesse the point in question see how substantially he would seem to auoide it with his Theologicall demonstration Probabile est But that I doe the man no iniurie hee hath an other shift of descant to helpe himselfe herein Though they had any such authoritie exiure by the law saith he yet Hoc nihil ad nos It doth not concerne vs. Why if the same pollicie that the Iewes had bee continued by Christ in his Church how commeth it to passe that this doth nothing concerne vs It is abrogated Belike euen as much and as little of the pollicie must continue as is in force at Geneua But who did abrogate it Christ. Where When hee said Reges gentium dominantur eis vos autem non sic The kinges of the nations beare rule ouer them but it shall not be so with you They seeme to bee much beholden to this peece of scripture it serueth them vnto so many purposes But if they presume in this sort vpon the continuall fauour of it certainly it will leaue them when they least suspect it If the Iewes Eldership had to deale in ciuill causes that Christ had puâ—posed to haue continued that form of gouernment in his Church in all pointes sauing in that he would haue said thus The priests of the Iewes did beare rule ouer them and had to deale in ciuill causes but it shall not be so with you It is to bee wondred ar that Beza should content himselfe with such vnlikely so very improbable conceites But it seemeth that vpon some better aduisement with himself and his fellowe subscribers they grewe all of them ashamed of these shiftes And therefore in his booke of excommunication which hee lately published hee is become in some sort another man Now both he his said felow-Ministers are out of doubt Ex clarissimis testimoniis By most clear testimonies that the authority which the priests had in ciuill causes was gotten by bribes Ex licentia iurisdictionis perturbatione through the libertie and confusion of those two distinctiurisdictions which confusion Christus nunquam approbanit Christ neuer approued Ah very well though they haue turned ouer an other lease and for Probabile est do bragge of most cleare testimonies yet concerning Christs wordes they are gone backward For his commandement Vos autem non sic is now turned as you see into Nunquam approbauit which carrieth with it no other force than is ascribed to a negatiue collection But for all their most cleare testimonies he must haue better eyes than mine that can discerne any thing by them sauing their inconstancie and that there is cause to suspect therby as I said that when their credites are increased they will not greatly sticke to breake the bounds of their said distinctions deale as well with matters of fact as of law For els besides all the premisses what meaneth this new ground of Diuinitie published of late in print to the worlde from Geneua Ciuiles quoque lites antequam Christiani essent magistratus vt verisimile est ex Apostolica doctrina amicè citra vllum ferè strepitum componebantur The ciuill contentions before there were any Christian magistrates were compounded as it is likely according to the Apostles doctrine by the Elderships friendly and without any suites of law So as now if this question were once determined whether that may bee lawful when there is a Christian magistrate that is lawfull to bee doone when there is none there should as you see bee no more suites in law for ciuill causes in the lande their Elderships haue intituled themselues vnto them and ingrossed them all by right into their handes You will say it is true that they haue done so indeede if
scriptures So Cyprian so Gregory c. did carry some weight in S. Augustines opinion Those things which diuerse notable men haue alledged out of the auncient Fathers for the iustification of the present ecclesiasticall gouernment in the church of England ought not so lightly to bee regarded with euery princox What the Fathers haue written that agreeth not with our Phantasticall giddye headed fellowes pleasures they write it not of parciality either to grieue them or to gratifie vs but as trueth led theÌ„ Quod inuenerunt in ecclesia teneruÌ„t quod didiceruÌ„t docueruÌ„t quod a patribus acceperunt hoc filiis tradideruÌ„t that which they found in the church saith Augustine they held that which they had learned they taught that which they had receaued of theyr fathers they deliuered to theyr children Though Cartwright his companie do carrie so base a conceit of those times wherein the auncient fathers liued yet the Fathers themselues did not so thinke of theÌ„ Iulianus the heriticke did speake as it seemeth insuch a scornfull sorte of theÌ„ as our Sectaries do But S. Augustine laieth it to his reproch as an apparant argument of his great folly presumptioÌ„ thinking it a most absurd point for him so to vse them Vsque adeò permiscuit imis summa longus dies c. hath time so confounded all things saith Augustine is darknes growen to bee such light and is light it selfe turned into such darknes vt videant Pelagius Celestinus Iulianus et caeci sunt Hilarius Cpyrianus Ambrosius that Pelagius Celestinâ—s and Iulianus can see and Hilary Cyprian and Ambrose are become blind And surely I do not perceaue why I may not without offence applie the same wordes to those men in these daies which treade in the saide fellowes steppes concerning this their contempt pride Were there neuer learned men before you were taught the principles of the Geneua discipline was wisdom dead till you were borne Doe you know what was in the Apostles times better then they did who succeeded the Apostles were the auncient Fathers able to defende the greatest misteries of our saluation against so many pestilent heretiques and were they ignorant in the matters of the externall gouernment of the church Knew they the distinction of the three persons in the blessed Trinitie could they not find what difference Christ allowed off to be continued in his Church betwixt a Bishop and a priest Is the darknes which pride carieth with it groweÌ„ to be so light and is the light that shewed it selfe so many waies in the ancient fathers as in their singular learning great humilitie become such darknes that Cartwright Trauerse Fenner and such like but the shadows of learned men in respect should be thought so clearly sighted shall Ireneus Tertullian Cyprian Ambrose Hierome Chrysostome Augustine Gregory Hilarye and all the rest of those worthie men be reckoned blind Surely he is a bussard that thinketh so And therefore I will coÌ„clude this chapter with another saying of S. Augustines against such busie innouators as you are oportet vt populi christiani vestris prophanis nouitatibus anteponant c. It is meet that all christian people should preferre the auncient fathers before your nouelties eisque potius adherere quà m vobis rather sticke fast to their iudgements then to runne after your phansies CHAP. XXVIII Theyr dealing with all the new writers and many reformed churches when they make against them THis is a grounde layde downe by Cartwright that few men that are of any stayde or sounder iudgement in the scriptures and haue seene or read of the gouernment and order of other churches are against them in such matters as they haue broched vnto vs. And agreablie to this ground his answeres are framed when any thing is vrged against him out of anie of the new writers except Caluin and BeZa If either of them do happen to crosse him it is strange to see how he doubleth shifteth As for any other they are but a puffe with him hee careth not greatly howe hee handleth them Pellicane Bucer Bullinger Illyricus and Musculus affirming with all the auncient Fathers that Timothye was Bishop of Ephesus what then sayth Cartwright If they were for one a hundred they could not beare downe the Apostle As though they hadde euer ment it Luther expoundinge a place of Zacharie contrarie to his liking his exposition sayth Cartwright is out of season Musculus affirmeth that the places 20. of Sainct Mathew 10. of sainct Marke and 22. of sainct Luke vos autem non sic doe not condemne Superioritie but an ambitious desire and tyrannicall vsage of it but Caluin as learned as hee sayth Cartwright is of my iudgement Bucer holdeth that the sayde 20. of Mathew doth propound a generall rule to all magistrats and christians Where Cartwrights extenuating the authoritie of man braueth out Bucer with this that his iudgment hath counterpoise of other as learned Whereas Peter Martyr Bullinger and Gualter do bring diuerse reasons for the lawfull vse of the surplise and such other apparrell as is appointed with vs for Ministers Cartwright is so farre from being moued with their authoritie as that he aduentureth to confute their said reasons after his manner very sophistically affirming in effect but falsely that either they vnderstoode not auncient fathers alleadged by them for that purpose or that they peruerted their meaning Bishop Ridly and Maister Bucer approouing that where there are no preachers there should bee godly learned homilies read in those Churches Cartwright thus dismisseth Bishop Ridley being a partie in this cause hee ought to be no witnesse And for Maister Bucers wordes he saith they are not to be weighed insinuating that his booke concerning his iudgement in king Edwardes daies vppon the communion booke is counterfeited Againe of maister Bucer for his allowing of priuate baptisme and of the signe of the Crosse likewise of the ring in marriage and that the parties married should receiue the communion he saith Bucer hath other grosse absurdities to this authoritie I could oppose other men of as great authoritie sometimes Homer sleepeth his reasons are verie ridiculous verie slender and colde and sauour not of the learning and sharpnesse of the iudgement of maister Bucer Maister Fox in like sorte setting downe his full approbation of the present state ecclesiasticall that Archbishops should be in degree aboue Bishops and Bishops in degree aboue other Ministers and relying for this his iudgement partly vpon the scriptures and partly vppon the primatiue Church and concluding that this is to keepe an order duely and truely in the Church according to the true nature and definition of order by the authoritie of Augustine he is I say thus censured Maister Fox writing a storie doth take greater paine and looketh more diligently to declare what is done and in what time and by whome then howe iustly or vniustly how
name to all ministers of the vvord and sacraments vvithout distinguishing thereby any one of them from another or vvas it not euer vvithin the time limited taken and vsed only in the said distribution for one amongst the ministers of the vvord and sacraments that gouerned the rest both of the ministers and people vvithin their circuits limited vnto them This question with the rest was sent to maister doctor Raynolds in Oxford to the intent he might returne his opinion of them which he forbare at that time to do in respect of certain other businesse that he had in hand Howbeit maister doctor Robinson his especial most familiar friend being acquainted as it seemeth with the sayd questions hath written in this sort vpon another occasion not dissenting therein as I take it from maister doctor Reynolds I haue sayth he mainteined it in the pulpit that the titles of honour vvhich vve giue to bishops are no more repugnant to the vvord of God then it is for vs to bee called vvardens presidents prouosts of colleges And in my iudgement they may vvith as good conscience be gouernours of their diocesse as vve being ministers may be gouernours of colleges of ministers Neither do I thinke that this vvas a late deuised policie For I am persuaded that the angell of the church of Ephesus to vvhom S. Iohn vvriteth vvas one minister set ouer the rest For seeing there vvere many pastors there vvhy should S. Iohn vvrite to the angell of the church of Ephesus and not rather to the angels if there had bene no difference amongst them And if this presidencie had had that fault vvhich is reprooued in Diotrephes as S. Ierome proueth that the Ievves had not corrupted the originall text before Christ his comming Quod nunquam dominus Apostoli qui caetera crimina arguunt in Scribis Phariseis de hoc crimine quod erat maximum reticuissent So I may say neither vvould our sauiour vvho by his seruant reproueth those disorders vvhich he found in the seuen churches haue passed ouer this great fault in silence Therefore as Titus vvas left to reforme the churches throughout the vvbole Iland of Crete so I am persuaded that in other places some of that order of pastors and teachers vvhich is perpetuall in the church euen in the time of the Apostles had a prelacie amongst their bretheren and that this preheminencie is approoued by our sauiour And if vve come any lovver though the vvord Episcopus signifie that care vvhich is required of all in scripture be applied to all that haue charge of soules yet I do not remember any one ecclesiasticall vvriter that I haue read vvherein that vvord doth not import a greater dignitie then is common to all ministers Neither do I thinke that any old vvriter did vnder the name of Bishop meane the pastor of euery parish VVhen the emperors vvere persecutors vve read of seueral elders but neuer of more then one bishop at once in Rome the like is to be sayd of other great cities and the churches neere adioining And to meet vvith that offence vvhich is taken at the name of Archbishop because that name is so appropriated to Christ in scripture that it is no vvhere giuen to any other I take it that there is no substantiall difference betvveene archbishop and archbuilder Either therfore the Apostle offended in taking too svvelling a title vvhen hee called himselfe an archbuilder or cheefe builder or it must be graunted that this title may in some degree be giuen to men vvithout derogation to Christ. And thus farre doctor Robinson with whom if maister doctor Reinolds do agree I see not whither the factioners will turne them for as I take it they will not reiect his opinion They haue bragged much of him indeed and of his iudgement in sundrie of their writings as though he were wholy on their side and that they held nothing but he would iustifie it Howbeit they haue done him therin I doubt not exceeding great iniurie For requitall wherof I would wish him neuer to seeke any other reuenge but to turne them to his booke against Hart where hee hath written his mind as touching this point now in hand In the Church of Ephesus sayth he though it had sundrie elders and pastors he vseth these two words in one signification as by the sentence going before it is manifest to guide it yet amongst those sundrie vvas there one cheefe vvhom our sauiour calleth the angell of the church and vvriteth that to him vvhich by him the rest shâ—uld â—novv And this is he vvhom aftervvards in the primitiue church the Fathers called bishop For c. the name of Bishop common before to all elders and pastors of the church vvas then by the vsuall language of the Fathers appropriated to him vvho had the presidentship ouer elders Thus are certain elders reproued by Ciprian Bishop of Carthage for receiuing to the communion them vvho had fallen in time of persecution before the bishop had aduised of it vvith them and others Here then you haue two for Oxford touching the language of the ancient fathers when they speake of bishops Now you shal haue a Cambridge mans opinion no moe but of one I tell you at this time marry he shall be such a one as the brotherhood if they bee of the painters mind before mentioned in the chapter may well bee compared with the other two seeing his iudgement is layd in equall ballance there both with Caluins and Bezaes and that without any disparagement vnto them you know whom I mean it is maister doctor Fulke who in his confutation of the Rhemish notes vpon the new testameÌ„t writeth thus Amongst the clergie for order and seemly gouernment there was alwaies one principall to vvhoÌ„ by long vse of the church the name of Bishop or superintendent hath bene applied vvhich roome Titus exercised in Creta Timothie in Ephesus others in other places Therfore although in the scripture a bishop and an elder is of one order and authoritie in preaching the vvord and administration of the sacraments as Hierome doth often confesse yet in gouernmeÌ„t by ancient vse of speech hee is onely called a Bishop vvhich is in the scriptures called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Ro. 12. 8. 1. Tim. 5. 17. Heb. 13.17 that is cheefe in gouernment to vvhom the ordination or consecration by imposition of bands vvas alvvaies principally coÌ„mitted c. VVhich most ancient forme of gouernment vvhen Adrius vvould take avvay it vvas noted amongst his other errors Hitherto doctor Fulke so as hereby I trust it may appeare to maister Cartvvrights reproch and to all their shames that shall pretend any authoritie froÌ„ the ancient fathers to impugne the right honorable lawful calling of Bishops not parsons in euery parish but Bishops in their diocesse and prouinces appointed in the Apostlestimes for the right order and gouernment of
the church of Christ. The second question before mentioned being as concerning priests or elders was as it followeth VVhether can it be shevved out of any ancient father out of any councell either generall or prouincial or out of any ecclesiastical historie for the space of 1500 od yeares euen frō the Apostles times till of late that in the sayd ordinarie distribution since that time euer vsed of church-officers into episcopos Presbiteros Diaconos Bishops priests and deacons whether I say can it be shevved that the vvord presbyter priest or elder vvas at any time taken and vsed for certain meere lay men as craftsmen husbandmen citizens gentlemen or noblemen such as should be chosen for a yeare or tvvo to be assistants vnto the ministers of the vvord for the better gouernment of the church as to haue authoritie vvith others to ordaine and impose their hands vpon a minister of the vvord and sacraments to bind and lose sinnes c. vsing in the meane time their seuerall vocations as they did before and ceasing after the said one or tvvo yeres vvithout any offence cōmitted by thē to be any longer presbyteri Or vvas it not euer vvithin the time limited taken vsed only in the said distribution for the ministers of the vvord and sacraments Vnto this questiō one hath made this answer The vvord Presbiteri vvas neuer othervvise takē since the Apostles times in that distribution but for the ministers of the vvord and sacramēts as it is most euidēt to any that shal peruse the ecclesiasticall histories or vvill take any paines to read the vvritings of the ancient fathers But of this point before it be long you shall heare more by one who as he hath done euery thing he dealeth with so hath hee handled this very notably Now in the meane while according to the order which hitherto I haue kept it shall be sufficient for me that the three sayd doctors men well accounted of with maister Cartvvright and his adherents and such as will not bee thought to speake any thing partially may deliuer their opinions as touching this matter For to my vnderstanding they are as direct in this point what the word Presbyteri should signifie in the ancient fathers as they were before in the other of Bishops If in the sayd ancient Fathers the name of Bishop be appropriated to one that had a greater dignitie than was common to all ministers and that by the name of Bishops they neuer vnderstood the pastors of euery parish as doctor Robinson sayth If in the primitiue church and in the Fathers language they were called Bishops that were the cheefe and presidents ouer the rest of the priests or elders euen such as our Sauiour himselfe by the holy Euangelist S. Iohn doth call angels as doctor Reynolds affirmeth If by ancient vse of speech he was onely called a Bishop which in the scriptures is called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 If the elders that were subiect to these gouernours were of one order and authoritie with them in preaching the word and administration of the sacraments as doctor Fulke hath written against the Iesuits doth it not follow most necessarily that all the Clergie being deduced into three degrees vz. of Bishops priests or elders and deacons that by priests the ancient fathers must needs vnderstand the rest of the ministers of the word and sacraments that were no bishops except any will be so impudent as to say that they were none of the clergie He that will doubt hereof let him doubt for me whether the sunne be vp at noone Besides doctor Raynolds sheweth that Ciprians elders did administer the sacraments And for doctor Fulke after he had once incountred with the papists and amongst many other points was come to this whereof I speake concerning the name of priests as it is a distinct degree vnder bishops though before and peraduenture then also hee had a great fancie to the consistoriall Aldermen yet then that hee was driuen to deale directly and truly consider how he was inforced to alter his disciplinarie stile Those priests or ministers that are made among vs are the same elders that the scriptures in Greeke calleth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and in the bishops letters of orders they call them by the name presbiteri vvhich tearme though in English you sound it priests elders ancient seniors or ministers it is the same office which is described by the holy ghost Tit. 1. and in other places of scripture Againe VVe refuse not the name priest as it commeth of presbiter c. it is odious to some that knovv not the true Etimologie thereof Againe The name priest as it is deriued of the Greeke vve do not refuse it Again It appeareth by many places of VVicklifs vvorks and namely in his homilie vpon Phil. 1 that hee acknovvledgeth the destinction of bishops and priests for order and gouernment although for doctrine and administration of sacraments they are all one Againe In the fathers Episcopus and Presbiter Bishop and Priest are tvvo distinct degrees And againe In the fathers the vvord Presbiter is one degree only that is subiect to the Bishop Whereas therefore maister Cartvvright with his followers do pretend that they propound nothing which the writers both old and new for the most part do not affirme and the examples of the primitiue churches confirme As that where the ancient fathers and ecclesiasticall histories make mention of bishops and priests they vnderstand by bishops his parish parsons and by priests his counterfeit Aldermen beleeue both him all that glaine after him therein as they deserue and as by the premisses you shall iudge there is cause CAP. XXXI Hovv and vvith vvhat disagreement they vvrest and misconster the scriptures in the behalfe of their pretended discipline ABout the yeare 420 there fell a great contention betwixt the bishops of Affrike and Zosimus the bishop of Rome The point in question was this whether it was lawfull for them of Affrike to appeale from the proceedings of their owne bishops to the bishop of Rome Vpon which occasion partly there was a councel held in Affrike tearmed the sixt councell of Carthage wherein S. Augustine was present The bishop of Rome hearing of this councell and that it was assembled especially about that matter sent thither his factors Faustinus bishop of Potentia with other two priests of Rome Philippus and Asellus In this councell when the sayd question began to be debated the bishop of Romes factors being for their wit and learning three of the especiallest men that Zosimus could find out for such a purpose did deale most expresly against the bishop of Affrike for the prerogatiue and iurisdiction of the see of Rome In all the which contention notwithstanding the sayd factors were such excellēt men vsed the strēgth of al the wit and learning that was in them yet they could not find any one argument in all the
him and wholy agreeth with Erastus mind vz. that therby Moses meaning was as it is word for word set downe by the prophet Ezechiel that the priests should teach the people out of the law what was holy what vnholy what cleane what polluted and that as Malachy saith the priests are and ought to be the interpreters of the law Now if maister Beza maister Cartvvright and the rest will stand to maister Caluins iudgement who is so excellent an interpreter of the scriptures what shall become of their eldership Neither Moses the Chronicles Ieremie nor Ezechiel can helpe thē and to haue Erastus expositions thus iustified and theirs reiected I suppose they will not indure it Their only shift then plea must needs be as I take it that first wher they extolled M. Caluin so highly for his interpretation of the scriptures their meaning was alwaies to except themselues and secondly as concerning their offer that they are yet content if we wil to refer it to M. Caluins iudgement whether there ought to be an eldership or not in euery parish Marrie for the proofes that must vphold it for the time of the institution of it and for such matters therin they will leaue him as neuer meaning to be iudged by him in those points which is as though the eye and the eare should say the one that it could see better the other that it could heare better then he himselfe that made both the eye and the eare Wel I am fully persuaded that if M. Caluin were now again at Geneua but for 3 or 4 daies and should find M. Beza with al his partakers Cartvvright Iunius the rest so mightily plunged for the maintenance of his deuise as that they shuld be driuē some of thē to run into Egypt some into the wildernes to mount Sinay some they know not whither and al of them to run so far out of his paths he would be greatly offended much amased at the matter could he take it in any good part that Beza specially being a man whō he had made such choise of to be a principal defender of the cōsistoriall discipline should by his intermedling with the gouernment of other churches haue pulled so many men vpon him as that for the defense of his own at home he should be driuē to seeke the first institution of it in Leuit. 10. v. 10. either there to hunt it out or to giue it ouer in the plaine field Surely there is great reason he should But what is that to me otherwise then that you thereby might be informed what constant hold their pretended holy elderships haue hither to found in the old testament and how they agree in the interpretation of such scriptures as should sustaine them Lastly as touching maister Caluins own opinion for the institution of his eldership after the captiuitie of the Iewes there doth not come into my memorie at this present any especiall place alleaged by him out of the scriptures to that purpose Neither do I find in him so much as that God did euer command this Sanedrim which hee speaketh of to be euer erected Only he sayth Hoc legitimū fuit Deoque probatū regimē They are a lavvful regimēt allovved of God Allowed of God not commanded I know that Cartvvright some others do bring for the cōtinuance of their pretēded elderships after the captiuitie certain places out of Ezra Nehemiah wher ther is mētion made of the cheefe of the fathers and of elders likewise of certain that stood by Ezra whē he preached to the people but the places are so apparantly wrested as no man that readeth them can be so dull but he must needs discerne it But I meruaile what maister Caluin meaneth when attributing to the Sinedriū or councel erected by the Iewes after their returne from Babylon Censuram morum doctrinae The censure of maners and doctrine In another place where he speaketh of the sayd constitution or erecting of it hee affirmeth that the 70 elders which vvere from time to time chosen to be of the Sanedrim vvere of the stocke of Dauid and of their former kings I hope they will not say that consequently their counterfeit elders ought all of them to be of the blood roiall But breefely for this matter of the Sanedrim or courts of iustice after the captiuitie I cannot iudge them to be any other then such courts and assemblies as were before ordained by Moses and had to do as well in ciuile caules as ecclesiasticall as it may at large appeare to those that will take the paines to read some part of doctor Sutclifs bookes whither for this time if they list I send them And so leauing any further to trouble you with this disciplinarie harmonie drawne by the eares out of the old testament I will come to the new Many things haue bene spoken of throughout the whole course of this booke which might be fit for this place as their iarring and disagreement in euery chapter almost hitherto which alwaies doth rise because that euery one of them in effect if he account himselfe to bee any body will writh and expound the scriptures as occasions serue and his affections do moue him The most of those places in the new testament that maister Caluin dooth expound of pastors and preachers only Beza Iunius Cartvvright and others of the disciplinarie mould and no men els do wrest and violently draw them vnto their Aldermen They forsooth are prophets to vvhom the spirits of other prophets must be subiect they are bishops for the feeding of Christs flocke Of their office it is sayd that he vvho desireth a bishopricke desireth a good vvorke That which S. Paule speaketh of himselfe as that he is a minister of the gospell and a vvitnesse appointed of those things vvhich he had seene vvhen the Lord appeared vnto him as he vvas going to Damascus Iunius will needs extend to these consistoriall companions Hereof you may see more in the sixt chapter where they ascribe vnto them all those names that since the Apostles times haue only bene giuen to the ministers of the word Maister Caluins authoritie is little regarded in this behalfe euen of those men who account him the best interpreter of the scriptures that euer was in the world these 1500 yeares Cartvvright being pressed sometimes with maister Caluins authoritie in expounding certaine places to be meant of pastors and ministers of the word where he will needs thrust in amongst them his Aldermen doth vse this wrangling shift viz. that although M. Caluin say that such ministers are there vnderstood yet he saith not that they only are there vnderstood By the which maner of euasion what can be spoken that may not be peruerted I do not remember that the scriptures do say in anie place that Christ had onelie twelue Apostles and then by Cartvvrights shift we may say he had as manie as we list
were before They abrogate the crosse of Christ. They put on an outside of grauitie and good conscience they make a marchandize of the worde and an open port-sale of the Gospell They that sometimes to our seeminge sought Reformation and the kingdome of Christ Iesus are now become of all others the most pernitious ennemies thereof dayly studyinge for newe cauills and shiftes to hide theyr wretchednes They suppose themselues to bee those seruaunts of Christ that are persecuted These disguised hypocrits these rauening wolues which come to vs in sheeps cloathing vnder glorious and swelling titles of Pastors Teachers and Ministers of the gospell men of great learninge of verye holy life and of great sinceritie seekers and sighers for reformation and such as abhorre and crye out against the Bishops and theyr proceedinges c. These pharisies these Sectaries are they which misleade the people in theyr crooked and by pathes of death and will neyther leade them nor suffer them to enter into the peaceable and straight wayes of the Lorde but keepe them alwayes learning and neuer bring them to the sight or acknowledging of the trueth These Prophets by theyr preachments and long pharisaicall prayers doe soder the people in theyr sinne and wearie God with theyr abhominable prayers and hypocritishe fastes counterfeyting a great sorrowe and heauines for theyr sinnes afflicting theyr soules for a peece of a daye bowinge downe the heade as a bulrushe Wee finde not onelye the markes of false Prophets which are recorded in the Scriptures vppon them but euen Sathans vttermost deceits and effectuall delusions amongst them suborninge and transforminge them as if they were Ministers of righteousnes taking vnto them the names and titles of Christs Ministers preachers of the gospell seekers of reformation c. whereby hee deceaueth the world These things I haue repeated not because I delight in such outragious deprauations of any that professe christianitie nay I do vtterly mislike them And it argueth of what season those vessels are froÌ„ whence they proceed But I did collect them together for this principall purpose that therein we might magnifie the iudgemeÌ„ts of God when we see apparantly with our owne eyes the execution of that his most inuiolable sentence with what measure ye meate with the same shal meÌ„ measure to you againe For although the former sorte of men in seeking of the Geneua Discipline doe set out themselues as you haue hearde for the Saincts of God as I trust some of them are and for men especially sanctified yet haue manye of them brought foorth most vnsanctified fruites cruell speaches proude things scurrilous gybes many cursings much bitternes and a huge masse of most slaunderous calumniatioÌ„s to the discrediting of those things which either they knew not or will not know them and of those persons whom they were bounde in conscience to haue reuerenced and honoured And now euen in the same manner they are repaied againe into their own bosomes as you haue heard by men of their own trayning vp and such as haue admired them vt discant non maledicere that they may learne to rayle no more CHAP. XXXIII Of the prayse and disprayse of this pretended regiment IT is founde to bee the onely bonde of peace the bane of heresie the punisher of sinne and mayntayner of righteousenes It is pure perfect full of all goodnes for the peace wealth and honor of Gods people is ordayned for the ioy and happines of all nations It is the right stuffe and golde for building the Church of Gods It is tearmed the venerable doctrine of discipline the most beautifull order of ecclesiasticall regiment The substantiaell forme of Christs gouernment Christs kingdome Gods gouernment This would make the Church a chast Spouse hauing a wonderfull brightnes as the morning fayre as the moone pure as the sunne and terrible as an armie with banners This gouerenment is the scepter whereby alone Christ Iesus ruleth amongst men The Churches of God in Denmarke Saxonie Zurich c. wanting this gouernement are to bee accounted maymed and vnperfect The establishing of the presbyteries is the full placing of Christ in his kingdome It is the blade of a shaken sworde in the hande of the Cherubins to keepe the waye of the tree of life It is called by the Apostle the grounde and piller of trueth I denye not but the true gouernment of the church by the Eldershippe may haue the most of those titles truely attributed vnto it wherewith the visible church vnder the new testament is adorned God hath ordayned the ciuile magistrate for the ecclesiasticall state therefore is the supreme kingdome of God in this world It is the chiefe throne of all excellencie wherein God him selfe doth sit The politicall Empyre is but a subalterne regiment et quasi inferius quoddaÌ„ subsellium as it were an vnder Court that determineth and decideth iniuries strifes and contentions c. idque ad ecclesiasticae oeconomiae praescriptum and by the commaundement of the ecclesiasticall gouernement Those Ministers that preferre the ciuile magistrate before the Ecclesiasticall they flatter him for profit and theyr bellies sake and do shamefuâ—ly to the daunger of theyr owne soules deceiue him The Ecclesiasticall discipline est inspectatrix et custos the ouerseer and keeper of the ciuile regiment that the magistrate doe not commaund his subiects any thing eyther contrarye to Gods worde or against nature and honest manners It is true that was begonne to bee affirmed vz. that the spirituall iurisdiction doth in price and dignitie so farre ouerweigh the politicall as the soule excelleth the bodye The spirirituall and ecclesiasticall gouernement by Pastors Doctors and Elders is as much superiour and more worthy then the politicke regiment as heauenlye benefittes doe excell earthly commodities Presbyterium est interpres Dei the presbyterie is Gods interpreter The Eldership may bee called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is bodilie an Angell The Presbytery is erected vp pro Christi tribunali for Christs tribunall seate Hee that will reade of the further commendation of this manner of Church-gouernement let him peruse some parts of Trauerses defence of the Ecclesiasticall discipline One thing I maie not omit for the which he extolleth some reformed Churches as hee tearmeth them where the Elderships doe most florish aboue the Skies insomuch as hee saith the examples of it might make an Infidell and vnbeleiuer fall downe on his face and confesse that vndoubtedlye God is amongst them and in the middest of those churches I dare saie you are desirous to know what rare excellent and celestiall thing that shold bee which is sufficient to woorke such a wonder You haue heard howe Rennichere hath exalted their Elderships or new papacie aboue all kings and kingdomes and now you shall see a singular proofe of it To keepe you in suspence