it but by the scripture which we doe not hold to be sufficient to determrne controuersies without tradition So that I haue no more to saye to you but wish you may begine this new yeare with a good night's rest which God send vs both Whether scripture alone is fit and able to decide controuersies in Religion THis Dialogue containeth 15. parts or paragraphes 1. The Preface or introduction 2. That tradition for scripture is not of as great force as for pointes of Doctrine 3. That tradition for scripture is not more vniuersall then tradition for doctrine 4. That it is impossible the text of scripture should haue remained incorrupted 5. What vncertaintie the errors of writers and copists hath bredd in scriptures 6. What vncertaintie the multiplicitie of translations hath bredd in scripture 7. That the verie repeating and reciting of an others words breedeth a varietie and vncertaintie 8. The vncertaintie of EquiuocatioÌ„ which of necessitie is incident in all writings 9. That there riseth an vncertaintie out of this that the scripture was written in languages now ceased 10. The vncertaintie which followeth the particular languages of Hebrew and Greeke wherein the scripture was vritten 11. That the nature of the bookes of scripture is not fitting for deciding of controuersies 12. Two manners of iudging of Religion out of scripture 13. How scripture doth determine controuersies 14. what laws are requisite for disputation out of scripture 15. Of an other manner of disputing out of scripture §. 1 The Introduction VNCLE How now cozen what make's you so early this morning could you not sleepe this last night Nephew Yes indifferent well I thanke God but t' is not verie early Howsoeuer if I be trublesome I will expect your better leasure for I am come only to tell you a scrupule that I had yesternight which hath tormeÌ„ted me euer since And it is that we Catholikes who beare so great reuerence and veneration to the holy scripture receiue more of it then others write infinite volumes of commentaries vpon it as Paul's church yard can witnesse and are so exact to improue our selues I meane our learned men in the knowledge of it should neuerthelesse when wee come to ioyne in the maine point that is to the decision of controuersies in Religion seeme to fly of and recurre to other iudges though we acknowledge it to be Christ owne word and law And now I haue tould you my difficultie I will leaue you to your better imployments knowing how much you esteeme and how precious you accompt your mornings and therefore I will make bould to call for your answere an other time Vncle. Nay stay cozen God forbid I should thinke I could better imploy my time then in giuing you satisfaction in question of such importance or that you should be importune vnto me by desiring the knowledge of a thing so necessarie and so be seeming you I were to blame if I would not leaue euen my prayers to assist you in this point and perhaps an other time you will not be so earnest on it Although I must coÌ„fesse I am some what vnwilling to diue into this questioÌ„ for I see by experieÌ„ce that the one part seeketh by all meanes to destroy the authoritie of God's church and the other seemeth to lessen the power of scripture for the deciding of controuersies so that indifferent men and as yet vnsetled be left as it were without all meanes of coming to the truth How soeuer necessitie excuseth vs for were our Aduersaries able to performe what they promise that is to resolue pointes of controuersies by scripture we were worse theÌ„ beasts if we should refuse to be iudged thereby But if to stand to scripture only as they doe be but a plausible way to Atheisme and so the question will only be whether we must rely vpon a church or be Athiests for we thinke by scripture alone lefâ—t without the guard of the church nothing or at least not enough for the saluation of mankinde can be sufficiently prouued then euerie man wil see that we are forced by reasoÌ„ and Religion to make euident and knowne as farr as we caÌ„ the necessitie of relying vpon a church and to vse all our power to persuade men therevnto And if you remember we said yesternight that Christian Religion or the law of Iesus Christ cannot be learned by witt and studie but by authoritie and by receiuing it from Iesus Christ And that wee said likewise that he is no true Christian nor truly of the communitie of Christians what so euer be his materiall beliefe who doth not accept of that rule and meanes which Iesus Christ hath left and ordained for the receipt of his law and the like of him who should follow anie other rule which must needes be ether scripture or tradition or both it will therefore euiâ—â—ntly follow that ether we must be no Christians or accept and acknowledge tradition to be this rule if wee can shew that the scripture is not fitt nor hath the conditions requisite for the deciding of controuersies nor was made or left to the church for this end Nephew The greater is the necessitie of this question the more gladd am I that I haue moued it though me thinke's I my self might well see it is not fitt to make the scripture iudge of coÌ„trouersies because we finde by experience that after so manie disputations and so manie bookes written on ether side there is nothing resolued nor are we the nearer an end and therefore t' is euident that scripture alone will neuer decide and determine our quarells and disputes Vncle. Well cozen since you will haue it so our first question shall bee §. 2 Whether tradition for scripture be of as great force as it is for pointes of doctrine ANd first I pray you tell mee doe you thinke that the Apostles when they weÌ„t about the world to preach Christ Iesus carried with theÌ„ all the bookes of the ould and new Testament ether readie translated into the languages of the people whom they preached vnto or else caused them to be translated by the first Christians Nephew I neuer thought of this question before but I see well enough that they could not carie all with them for some parts certainely were not made before they went to to preach nay I a'm not assured whether anie part of the new testament was made before their dispersion from Hierusalem so that well may they haue caried the ould Testament with theÌ„ if they thought it sitting but for the new they could not if I be not mistakeÌ„ Vncle. It is verie true I will tell you therefore cozen how the authoritie of the scripture that is Now the neW Testament Was pro aga ted of the new Testament came into the church An Apostle or Disciple writing a booke or Epistle coÌ„municated it to that church or Countrie wherein he preached or to which he writte it that church coÌ„municated it to their neighbours as the worke
which some doe with such cōfidence for surely they must ether be proude dunces and ignorant doltes not vnderstanding what is proofe and what is not or else preuaricating miscreants counterfeiting what they doe not belieue and thinke our learned men vnable or vnwilling to discouer the follye of theyr enterprise Vncle. Your bloode is too hot nephew but if you said only that such men as promise them selues victorie with so much confidence in this case are rash and vnaduised I should thinke you wronged them not For the truth is there 's none but is so in his measure And where interest or affection is ioyned to some litle apparēce which the first sight of the text affordeth there 's presently a great impression made It is true in so graue and important a case they ought to be more staied but he whose conscience quitteth him from all too forward iudging of his neighbours euen in matters of consequence let him cast the first stone for mee I will leaue them to them selues and let you see that we are not yet at an end but farther §. 9 That there riseth an vncertaintie out of this that the scripture was written in languages now ceassed FOr not only the languages in which the Holy scrtpture was writtē doe of their owne nature as I tould you breede great ambiguitie in the text but also in this that those languages are now extinct And therefore wee see that the knowledge of them is not cōmon ad vniuersall but only of some particular men and amongst them in most things mainely controuerted And of this disputable vncertaintie amongst our famous linguists none can be ignorant the nūber of Critickes in this age and the multitude of their volumes giue sufficient testimonie of it The vncertaintie of criticisme Nay they will tell you that an exact and skillfull knowledge in this Criticisme is a necessarie part and qualitie for all those who will professe the studie or interpretation of scripture And yet God knowe's vpon what slight grounds they proceed what weake ghesses are their iudgmēts how full of quarells and mistakes so that a wise man no sooner seeth them but seeth likewise that there is nothing but varieties of disputs vpon coniecturall probabilities and neuerthelesse you shall haue thē cry out runne to the fountaine goe to the spring see the originall texts not considering that there is nothing there but trubled waters that is obscure cōiectures I could tell you also that often times it happeneth that such as are imployed in the translations of these ambiguous originalls haue got by friēds and fauour that preferment and so haue let passe some places in their trālations which I could cite against their owne iudgment to complie with the will of their patrons and higher powers whom they durst not resiste But in deede their principles in them selues are so vncertaine as that the best and wisest of them will confesse they haue beene often mistaken and will not sticke to chāge their mindes now and then euen in such pointes as they thought they had the greattest euidence their art could aftord them What thinke you then deare cozen would become of Christian faith if it were only to relye vpon such a weake fundation Which must needes follow if the most substantiall pointes of Christian Religion must haue their only warrant and decision from the bare written word and bee euer agitated by places of scripture and neuer concluded by a definitiue sentence Were it not too tedious I would let you see the vncertaintie of diuers particular languages wherein seuerall parts of the scripture are said to haue beene originally written but I will only tell you in a word §. 10 What vncertaintie followeth the two particular languages of Hebrew and Greeke wherein the scripture was written FIrst therefore the Hebrew hath two proprieties verie considerable the one that it is thought to be the shortest language in the world the other that it is the most eloquent For the first it cōsisteth cheefely in the writing of the words and in the scarcitie of bookes For the writing all the vowells are supposed not expressed in the originall copies and therefore only conserued by memorie and to memory we must trust for them I confesse they are now expressed by pointes wherein there is great mistaking the rules thereof being verie vncertaine and the more in that these rules and the practize of them were varied according to the diuersitie of the countries wherein the Iewes haue beene dispersed The reason of their writing without points I conceiue was becaus their vowells being at the first but fiue by making long and short grew to be more and so the first figures of them to stand only for the consonant vse of some vowells or els to haue no sound But what soeuer the origine was the effect must of necessitie breede a great obscuritie and doubtfullnesse in the language the vowells though fewer yet in vse being verie neere as much as the consonants The words are all of one or two sillables if anie be of more they are accounted exoticke and therefore verie like one an other which is also increased by the neerenesse of diuers of their letters So that both their pronuntiation and writing being easily mistaken and confounded bring 's a great disorder in the language This is likewise augmented by the want they haue of coniunctions and prepositions which not being of a sufficient number make the construction verie equiuocall manie times For the scaretie of bookes you may well conceiue it if you doe but know that the legitimate Hebrew is wholy contained in the old scripture whereof some parts were not written in Hebrew and if you saw the booke in a smale print and yet the letter bigger then our litle latin character you would see it is but a verie litle booke And what soeuer besides is written in Hebrew is not warrantable to explicate the text The Rabins affecting manie diuersities as well in words and stile as in writing Nay perhaps I might add to this that the characters them selues haue beene wholy changed since the beginning and that it is credibly reported to haue beene once lost and restored only by the memorie of Esdras So that we haue the least assurance of this language that almost can be of anie not entirely extinguished For the proprietie of the Hebrew 's Eloquence it consisteth cheefely in figures translations and number Figures or schemes are the highest part of proper Rhetoricke because they contayne the greatest force and swaye that words can giue to our appetit and if they bee rightly applyed carrie a way the auditor euen against his will vnto a strong and sadaine action These although the Prophets vse them more perfectly then euer anie Poet or Orator did yet doe they not cause much obscuritie vnlesse it be when they are vsed in Dialogue forme which where it is vsed in scripture t' is hard to discerne How soeuer they are a conuincing proofe that who
of such an Apostle so by litle and litle it grew froÌ„ one countrie to an other vntill it was spredd ouer the whole Christian world So that some countries had not the new Testament complete that is all the bookes of it for a long time Wherefore no wonder that some haue doubted of seuerall parts thereof being not able to auerre as not assured by reason of some accident that such bookes were truly the workes of such an Apostle or Disciple which not withstaÌ„ding Why the canon of scripture is cheefely to be had from Rome better intelligeÌ„ce being gotten might be afterwards receiued for scripture And here you may note by the way that the Roman church is that church to which in reason wee ought to giue most credit touching the canon of the scripture For Rome being at that time â—that is at least for the first 300 yeares to the Christian world or rather to all the Christians dispersed in diuers parts of the world as London is to England And that wee see the collection of things estimable dispersed in seuerall Prouinces of our Kingdome is sooner and better made in London then in anie other part of our Countrie it must needes follow that the collection of the Holy scripture or new Testament was more exactly faisable at Rome then at anie other place But this by the way For my ayme is to make you iudge whether anie one substantiall point The state of the questioÌ„ which the Apostles whith common conseÌ„t preached through the whole world compared to anie one booke of the new Testament which soeuer you thinke first or best receiued whether I say of these two haue descended vnto vs with more certaintie the one to be the Apostles doctrine the other to be such an Apostle's booke Nephew I should distinguish your question for ether it may be compared to that particular Prouince or church where the Apostle him selfe deliuered it both in word and writing or to the whole church And I confesse that in respect of the whole church that point of doctrine which is euerie where preached must needes haue more certaintie but where both are equaly deliuered by the same Apostle to the same church I should thinke the worke should haue more authoritie theÌ„ the word For t' is an easie matter to let slipp a word some times Whereas writing requireth a more setled consideration Vncle. If the question be but of a particular church or Prouince I doubt it will not be sufficient to giue vs a firme authoritie for ether one or the other vnlesse we add more circumstances then we haue declared And the reason is because one Prouince maye haue had Religion so ruinated in it by the incursion of infidells that recouering theÌ„ selues after a long time they may as well mistake one booke for an other as one doctrine for an other and so this point is not much to our pourpose Although euen in this case the doctrine taught by word of mouth hath these aduantages That it is deliuered to manie the booke to few or in some one place The doctrine heard and vnderstood by manie the booke only to such as can reade nor to all them nether but to such as are carefull The booke belonge's not much to the practize of the multitude the doctrine gouernes their whole liues The booke brought often times by some one maÌ„ as some messeÌ„ger if it be an Epistl or other wise sent from some other place or froÌ„ some one person as from Titus of Timotheus to whom it was first written and vpon whose authoritie only the whole veritie must originally rely But to returne to our case Doe you not see that the whole church trusteth some one particular man at the first vpon whom she buildeth hir beliefe tht this is such an Apostles worke that is scripture But for anie materiall point of doctrine she relyeth vpoÌ„ the vniuersall knowledge of theÌ„ who heard it preached in diuers parts of the world So that as I doe not intende to say the one is certaine the other not for a particular churche's authoritie may be certaine in some circonstances yet I must needes say that betwixt these two certainties there is such a differeÌ„ce that if the one were to bring in verdict vpon the other it would be much more forcible and euident to conclude that this booke is scripture because it is according and conformable to the doctrine taught and preached then that this doctrine is the Apostle's because it is conformable to this booke For if it be true that the whole church once relyed vpon some one particular church for this veritie it can neuer come to passe that the certaintie of this booke proue greater then was the authoritie of that particular church at that time And consequently the same comparison which is to be made betwixt the authoritie of this particular church and of the vniuersall church the same I say is to be made betwixt the certaintie of this booke 's being scripture and of this point of doctrine's being catholike and Apostolike And for the inconuenience you were jealous of it falleth out quitt contrarie For whether we considere the inspiration and assistance of the holy ghost or the industrie aed carefullnesse of man you shall euer finde that the end is more principally aymed at then the meanes to compasse the end and likewise amongst diuers meanes the most immediate to the end is still most aymed at wherefore in our case the end both of writing and speaking being the deliuerie of this doctrine for the good of the people no doubt I say but that both the AssistaÌ„ce of the holy ghost and the care of man tendeth more principally to the deliuerie of this doctrine then to other things that came in by chance in which only there might be a slipp as you immagine Wherefore sithence tradition containeth not all the words the Apostles spoke but meerely what belong's to ChristiaÌ„ doctrine which was principally deliuered and the cheefe errand of the Apostles and that in the scriptute manie things are written vpon occasion and as it were by the bye no doubt but in both these respects to wit of the assistance of the holy ghost and of the care of man the certaintie will be greater of the doctrine deliuered by word of mouth theÌ„ of the holy writt Besides the slipps you speake of are when things are only once deliuered or spoken without great premeditation whereas this doctrine was a thing perpetually beaten on so as there can be no feare of such slipping HoW the old Testament came to Christians hands For the ould TestameÌ„t as I confesse t' is possible that the Apostles might haue deliuered it in all Countries where they preached so likewise I thinke t' is euident that they neuer did it being that the church hath no such memorie And that the Canon hath beene doubted of by some and the Iewish Canon alleadged whereof there had beene no vse nor neede if the
vseth them much inteÌ„de's not his writings should be dogmaticall and decisiue Translations or metaphores are cause of great obscuritie and therefore we see the Poets who cheefely vse them are not to be redd vntill a man be exercised in theÌ„ without studie and paines Nor doe anie Greeke or Latin examples shew that strength which the scripture hath in this kinde The number or Cadence which one would thinke could not be suspected of anie such matter is a cause of great ambiguitie for the Hebrews being wholy giuen there vnto in their scripture haue so manie accents of diuers effects whereof one manie times staÌ„deth for an other or is like an other in figure that you had neede of an Ariadne to lead you thorough Some of their accents are Grammaticall some Rhetoricall some musicall and as much a doe with them as with the reste of the words and verie hard it is to know when it is one accent when it is an other and when it hath this effect when that Who therefore would haue recourse to the Hebrew Text for precise and conuincing decisions doth like him that being not skillfull at his weapon would choose vpon a challenge for the hower of his combat a moonelesse midnight when the skill of his enimie could not preiudice him Nephew Marrie sir I thinke such a man should doe wisely for the question being not of fencing but of valour his enimie's skill would be no disaduantage vnto him But yet I cannot commende him that chooseth obscuritie for the decision of a doubt vnlesse he feare his cause and thinke him self in the wrong and then peraduenture his witt may be commended Vncle. It is sufficient for mee that you conceiue that this is not the way to cleere the truh To the Greeke text therefore which I will tell you that the ambiguitie of it is nothing so great as of the Hebrew yet hath it two defects The one that it wanteth those sense varying coniugations whereby the Orientall languages expresse them selues the other that by abundance or rather redundance of vnprofitable varieties it is both hard to learne and vncertaine in seÌ„se the same word signifying diuersly ether because of diuers Dialectes or of diuers applications of authours so manie hauing written in seuerall countries not depending one of an other and hauing great diuersitie of phansies Their prepositions both in constructioÌ„ and composition are irregular changing some times the sense of the primatiue verie extrauagantly in so much that meere ghesse and coniecture must preuaille the word if it be coÌ„mon being vsed in sundrie seÌ„ses if it be rare the meaning of it must be gathered out of some thing adiacent Nephew Here is enough vncle of this verball and GraÌ„maticall stuffe Wherefore I will now put you in minde of your promise to wit that you will tell mee to what end the scripture was left to the church since by reason of it's ambiguitie it is not fit to be a judge of controuersies Vncle. I will tell you presently but first I haue a word more to saie vnto you wherein because I see you are half wearie I wee wil be short and it shal bee to shew you §. 11 That the verie nature of the bookes of scripture is not fitting to decide controuersies TEll me then cozen suppose you were to giue a law in writing which should last for manies ages and be obserued in manie couÌ„tries how would you cause it to be written I meane not for the language but for the frame of the worke and for the manner or methode of the deliuerie of it Nephew I doe not professe my self able to bee a law-maker yer according to the example of our laws and of the ciuill law In What forme laws ought to be made and I imagine the like of the laws of other countries it were me thinke's to be donne thus I would first cause the most commoÌ„ things to be commanded then by degrees I would descende to particulars still obseruing that seuerall matters should be vnder seuerall chapters or diuisions and not one peece here an other there euerie chapter containing all things necessarily belonging to that matter Farther I would distinguish the degrees of commandes by the degrees of penalties and rewards And if anie thing were fit partly to be declared partly to be left to discretion I would expresse so much that there might be no mistake As for the stile I would endeauour to make it the most proper and exact that possibly I could explicating ambiguous words to my power and declaring in what sense they were to be taken cutting of all superfluous words which might anie waye confound or prolong the sentences without necessitie In fine I would labour to make it the most ordinarie the most plaine and the most short that my witts could reach vnto and then according as I should haue followed these rules I should thinke to haue performed my raske Vncle. I see you would make a good states man And if reason teach you this will not the same reason tell you likewise that if the Authour of reason him self were to giue a law would he not doe the same in a more perfect degree And if in anie booke he hath not donne it doth not the same reasoÌ„ tell you that his intention was not that that booke should be a iudging law Let vs therefore see whether these conditions be obserued in the scripture or no And if it be manifest that the scripture hath them not this controuersie must needes be at an end sithence it will euidently follow that God neuer ordained the scripture for anie such pourpose but for some thing els and consequently that it were as ridiculous to seeke the decision of controuersies out of scripture as to cut with beetle or knoke with a strawe Deuiding therefore th holy scripture you shall finde The diuision of the â—ookes of the old TestameÌ„t that the bookes of the old Testament sauing Deuteronomie which is or containeth the old law with much admixtion of historie are ether Historicall oratoricall poeticall or Philosophicall Whereof the three first are excluded by their verie names from the qualities and conditions of a law instituted for the deciding of quarells though some coÌ„mandes may be therein contained vpon occasion The philosophicall bookes are such as touch litle vpon our coÌ„trouersies because they are but ether morall instructions for the life and conuersation of men amongst their neigbours or else they treate and speake only of such pointes as wee and all our Aduersaries agree in But in deede there is a maine reason against the whole text of the old law which is that the commandes were giuen as we saie personally to one people and did no farther belong to the rest of the world then in that they were naturall commandes that is in the vertue of nature obliging to obedience So that who soeuer will argue out of the old Testament must first proue the commande to be naturall which if he doe
or authoritie vpon earth to take vp these quarells and decide these controuersies shall matters of such maine importance and great consequēce euer remaine a perpetuall subiect of endlesse dissention and diuision shall the Catholike church and Christian Religion bee torne and rente in peeces euē in what is most substātiall and essentiall in hir for still I saie the like may be said of what pointe soeuer at the will and pleasure of some priuate mē's phansies and no power ordained to preuent such essentiall and eternall disorders If this be not to ruine ād ouerthrow all gouerment and Religion and to introduce confusion both common sense and reasō faileth Put this libertie of beleeuing only what he thinkes he find's in the scripture but in to one man's hands to wit the first beginner and brocher of a new dogme and let him be a man to whom the sharpenesse of wit and some times a seeming good life hath giuen authoritie though truly his spirit is gouerned ether by a secret pride or by some other interest or indignation and see if such an one be not able to draw a great multitude euen the third part of the starrs after him especially if he preach libertie ether of minde or bodie and haue with all the hand of some Prince full of rewards and punishments to second his intētions Calculate what the industrie of such a formed party hartily cleauing together is not able to invente Some haue beene able to cast mistes euen vpon mathematikes and vpō the most certaine principles of nature and laying then those qualities of scripture which I haue tould you of to the disposition of those factious persons what euidence thinke you can be expected from the conflicts of such mē disputing vpon such groundes Nephew Truble yourself no farther in this pointe for I cannot but confesse that the euidence you haue brought is greater then I could expect or desire Wherefore I pray hold me no longer in suspence but tell mee §. 12 Which be the wayes or manners of iudging pointes of Religiō out of the scripture VNcle Why cozen tell me first doe you see the walle before you some fouer or fiue yards frō you and how much of if doe you see Nephew I see it perfectly well God be thanked and it is white there is fower pictures hangs on it and half a douzen chaires stand against it To tell you precisely how much of it I see together that I perhapps cannot but in a short turning of myne eye I can see it all or verie neare if I will Vncle. I pray goe within a spanne of it and then tell mee what difference you finde in the sight of the walle Nephew Marry I finde now that I see much lesse of it but that which I doe see and which lyeth directly before me I see farr better and can distinguish euerie litle part in it and of what collour it is Vncle. Did you not tell mee cozen the walle was white how cometh it to passe that you tell me now you see what collour euerie part of it is Nephew It seemed all white before whilest I was a good wale from it but when I came neere it I could perceiue some litle parts dunne others browne and the like but sure the white parts were much more Vncle. Why then cozen you may thinke that you did not perfectly see the collour of the walle before for the collour of the walle must needes be the collour of the parts and you saie the collour of the parts is not one but manie and therefore you only saw the collour of those parts which did exceede the rest And if you tooke anie of those litle parts and put it in a multiplying glasse you would see as great difference of parts and peraduenture of collours to in it as you saw in the walle when you were within a spanne of it so that if one should aske you what you haue seene you would hardly quit your self handsomly of the question Notwithstanding you perceiue well enough that the first sight of the walle serueth you for all the vses of your life as not to runne against it and generally to know how to comporte your self or vse anie thing else which were requisite to be set towards the walle or in anie manner to be donne about it The second sight serueth you only to know the nature of the walle and to distinguish what is mixed in it or of what ingredients it is composed or the like So that you see the easier and more common knowledge of anie thing serueth for the direction of our liues the more particular and exact knowledge is only required ether for the content of the knower or for some speciall practize vpon the thing knowne Nephew I belieue I vnderstand alreadie which waie you intende to carrie me for you will tell me that there are two manners of vnderstāding scripture the one a Kinde of large manner taking it in grosse and a great deale together as we take a discourse or playe which pleasingly passeth away without anie great demurr or particular weighing of euerie word The other more curious and exact looknig into euerie litle proprietie which may breede anie diuersitie And I suppose you would tell me that this second belōgeth only to schollers but that the former guideth our life and gouerneth our actions And t' is true I see the people is ordinarily caried a waye by their preachers Antient common wealths by their Oratours and in what matter soeuer an eloquent and elaborate discours which passeth sweetly in this sort gaine 's presently the suffrages of the Auditorie Wherefore I must needes confesse that what good effect soeuer is the end for which the scripture was ordained if it be anie thing belonging to man's life and conuersation it must be compassed by this grosse cōmon and ordinarie course of reading and vnderstanding it Where as if a man should ouer examine euerie word he would not finde grounde to fixe him self with aduantage and vtilitie Is not this your meaning Vncle. You are verie right And surely if we looke into what is in the scripture necessarie for our good life and vertuous conuersation we shall finde plainely that t' is to be had this waie As the direction of our liues and actions to God acknowledging all things from him Comfort in aduersitie moderation in prosperitie compassion of the afflicted helping of the needie Rewards of vertue punishments of vice examples of both and in a word the motiues of the loue of God and our neighbour and of the cōtempt of the world Who therefore is so blinde as not to see that these things are to be found in the scripture by a sensible common and discreet reading of it though perhapps by a rigorous ād exact ballancing of euerie particular word and syllable anie of these things would vanish awaie we know not how but to come yet closser to our pourpose doe you thinke this manner of reading scripture would make a man
a perfect beleeuer that is a Catholike Which is as much as to aske §. 13 How scripture doth determine controuersies NPEHEW How should I know that vnlesse I were able to prooue my Religiō out of scripture or at least that I were able to giue a iudgement of all that is in scripture Which is beyond my capacitie Vncle. Then I will tell you cozē there are two meanes to make one a Catholike or a true and perfect belieuer The one by shewing euerie point of our faith in particular And this I dare not saie that our common and ordinarie manner of reading or hearing scripture is able to doe for we see those who write of controuersies doe alledge but few places nor those vnauoidable nether for some pointes of Catholike doctrine Nor is it to be expected Because man's nature being euer to add to what is alreadie learned And seeing likewise that long practise maketh men perfect in all arts There being no prohibitiō to perfect in some sort the instruction of the faithfull the oeconomie of the church and some such other things which the oppressed Primitiue church could not bring to perfectiō no maruelle I saie if these and the like things can not in particular be shewd in the scripture but shall therefore I know not who rise vp and exclame these things be superstitious hurtfull to the faithfull ād make a schisme to destroy them Who doth not see that this were plaine faction and Rebellion The other meanes or waye to make one a Catholike is by some common principle as if by reading of scripture wee finde nothing contrarie to the Catholike tenet or practize which our Aduersarie call's in question or also if wee finde it commēded there in generall or the authours and obseruers of it praised and extolled And in this waye I doubt not but a sensible and discreete reading of scripture at large may and will make anie true student of it a perfect beleeuing Catholike so he proceede with indifferēcie ād with a minde rather to know scripture then to looke for this or that point in it But now can you tell me cozē how it cometh to passe that sithence by an exact and particular examinatiō of the words of scripture these truths cānot be conuinced and beaten out of it how I saie is it possible that by a common and ordinarie reading of it these truths should appeare for that cānot be in the summe which is not in the particulars Nephew I can tell you that there is the same difficultie in the diuers sights of the walle which you made me experiēce but euen now but to yeild you a good reason ether of the one or the other that passeth my vnderstanding Vncle. Haue you not seene an inuētion of the Architects who can so dispose pillars in a gallerie that setting your eye in a certaine position you shall see the figure of a mā or a beast and walking a long the gallerie to goe to it it vanisheth awaie and you shall see nothing but pillars Or haue not seene a silinder or pillar of glasse before which if you laie certaine papers full of scrawolles and scrables and looking into the pillar you shall see the picture of a man or the like As these are dōne so it happeneth in our case both in the eye and in the vnderstanding For the art of these things is that certaine parts may so come together to the eye as that other parts ether by situation or by some other accident remaine hidden and that those parts which appeare being seene without the others will make this or that shape In our case likewise the quantitie of the seene parts exceeding the vnseene keepes the whole possession of the eye in the sight and of the vnderstanding in reading not letting the reste appeare And hence it is also that this common manner of vsing scripture is more secure then the exact ballancing of it For nether the varietie of translations nor the errours of copies nor the difficulties of languages nor the mutabilitie of words nor the multiplicitie of the occasions and intentions of the writers nor the abundance of the things written nor the different framinges of the bookes which be the causes of vncertaintie in a rigorous examinatiō haue anie such power as to breake the common and ordinarie sense or intention of the writer in generall as all bookes testifie vnto vs. And hence it is likewise that the holy fathers pressed scripture against the Heretickes of their times partly forced therevnto because the Heretickes generally will admitte of no proofe but out of the scripture but cheefly by reason their workes are diffuse and oratoricall befitting people vsed to orations and sermons as the Greekes and Romans were diuers of the fathers them selues bredd in that sort of learning Wherefore you shall haue them cite manie places some proper some Allegoricall some common all some times auoidable if they be taken seperatly but the whole discours more or lesse forcible according to the naturall parts or heauenly light more or lesse communicated to one then to an other yet still in the proportion of oratours who speake to the multitude and not to Socrates or Crysippus Wherefore the scripture in this kinde was a fitting weapon for them and the churche's continuing and reremaining in their doctrine sheweth that they vsed it dexterously and as it ougth to be vsed with relation and dependance of tradition Nephew Why then sir must all disputatiō of Religiō out of scripture be abolished For if there can bee no certaintie gathered out of it in a decisiue ād definitiue waie to what pourpose should a man ether alledge it or admitte it in disputes of Religion at least tell me I pray §. 14 What laws are requisite for disputation out of scripture VNCLE I am farr frō disliking disputation out of scripture so it be donne with those conditions which are fitting and which may bring the matter to some vpsh ott The first rule I would haue a Catholike obserue is not to dispute with a Protestāt vnlesse he promise to proue his position euidently and manifestly For since the Catholike knowes there may be certaine wittie probabilities and hard places of scripture brought against him it were madnesse in him to leaue his tenet custome optima legum interpres stāding for him and the practize of the church being on his side which is the greatest argument that can be brought to shew how and in what sēse the scriptures which that church hir self deliuereth are to be vnderstood it were I saie meere follie in a Catholike to leaue his tenent and accept of an other only for a probable and likely interpretation his owne being confirmed by that practize which maketh it more then probable And it is cleere the Protestant must needes pleade against possession for at the first breaking when the Protestants pretended to reforme the church she was surely in possession of those things which they pretended to take awaie and in
possession of that sense of the scripture which they pretēded to be false and wrōg And surely no man of common sense who is in possessiō and hath the law in his owne hands will yeild it vp without euidence on the cōtrarie part The second rule I desire a Catholike should obserue is not to thinke his cause lost because him self cannot answere the argumēts proposed against him nor to venter his cause and his possession vpon his owne wit For the disputation being in a matter wherein according to the Protestants groundes there is no certaintie it followeth that who hath the better wit or is more practized in this matter may bring an argumēt a good scholler cannot solue at the first sight though afterwards ether he or some other may And what a follie were it for a man to venture his soule and conscience vpon a subtilitie or present flash of wit whereof peraduenture within an hower hee him selfe will see the falsitie and condemne his owne errour Wherefore a Catholike is not to venter the cause vpon his owne head nor to confesse it weake because he cannot defende it for both may he improue him selfe and some others perhapps may goe farr beyōd him The third rule is that the Catholike should neuer vndertake to conuince his Aduersarie out of scripture but content him self that these words may well beare this sense which is in fauour of the Catholike church And this is both more easie to performe and sufficient for his pourpose For the Catholike hath an assured grounde of his faith besides scripture and which relyeth not vpon it nay he holdeth that his Religion cannot be wholy conuinced out of scripture to what end therefore vnlesse he would show his wit should he vndertake to proue his tenents by scripture For this were to strenghen his opponent in his owne grounde and principle to wit that all is to be proued out of scripture Nephew You would binde Protestants to verie vnequall conditions if you will oblige them to conuince and the Catholike not nay that it shal be sufficient for the Catholike to shew this may be the meaning of this or that place of scripture whereas the Protestant shal be forced to proue cleerely and euidently that this is the verie sense of the text Vncle. Not I cozen but the Protestants them selues oblige thē selues to this hard measure for if a man should strongly mātaine that a Beetle were the best instrument to cut withall and you saie no were no he bound to cut with a Beetle and it were no sense to saie that you should be forced to doe it since you mantaine it to be impossible So they who hold that the scripture is the true iudge of controuersies and fit and able to decide all quarells and dissensions about the Christian faith and law binde them selues by holding this to conuince their positions by scripture which cānot be exacted at his hands Who saith scripture was not made for this end nor is sufficient for it And looke vpon Luther and the Heretikes of his timē nay vpon the Puritants of our days and see if they doe not all mātaine that they can conuince their tenēts by scripture and saie that our forefathers were wholy ignorant of scripture and that wee now liuing knowe nothing of it But to goe on with our rules of disputing out of scripture The fourth condition shall bee that the Catholike doe not admitte anie negatiue proofes as to saie this is an errour because you can shew no scripture for it For this is no proofe vnlesse they will suppose that nothing is true but scripture or that there is nothing to bee donne but what is ordained by scripture which were absurd for nether Catholike nor I thinke anie good Protestant will admitte of that supposition being it were not only to take away the power of the church but euen nature from nature for nature teacheth vs to helpe our selues where scripture doth not contradict and as a Puritant seeketh a pulpit or high place to preach in without looking whether he haue a warrant for it in the scripture to command him so rationall and sensible men doe seeke a particular habit for a preacher or Clergie man whereby he may be more decent and comely and his words and exhortations be receiued with more respect and authoritie and this without anie cōmande of the scripture which where it commandeth it maketh the thing cōmanded to be necessarie where it is silent there it maketh nothing vnlawfull Nephew If the Protestants were to disput vpon these conditions they would keepe of I warrant you Yet this I must tell you that it were a great satisfaction for indifferent men that haue beene brought vp in this verball and apparent respect of the scripture to see that the positions you would induce them vnto can bee and are maintened by scripture and that they are grounded therein This perhapps you can doe by shewing mee some other waie of dealing with thē and whether there be not §. 15 An other manner of disputing out of scripture VNcle For their sakes cozen I will tell you of an other sort of disputation wherein the Protestant shall haue no other disaduantage but of his cause For I thinke that the Catholike cause may not only be maintened by scripture but also that it hath the better stāding precisely to scripture alone I confesse this kinde of disputation is not fit for manie Auditors but only for moderate and vnderstanding men And it is to make this the question Whether partie is more probable if only scripture were to bee alleadged This Question requireth diuers suppositions where vpon both sides are to be agreed which I feare will bee some what hard As what texts are to preuaille what cōmentaries or explicatiōs shall be allowed of what is a proper and an improper speeche amongst improper speeches which must be preferred what copies of euerie text shal be held for good what coniectures shall be accounted null against the naturall sense And manie other such positions which would not be easily resolued This donne let both sides bring their places for the pointe in question and so the disputatiō will only be of the qualificatiō of the places that is to shew whether are more apparēt and likely of the two And for this I see lekewise that so manie logicall principles are first to bee resolued which partly are found as yet amongst the critickes disputations as that all the Logickes hitherto inuented would not afford sufficiēt light and instruction to make an euident conclusion whether side were more apparent in words and Tetxs And therefore you may ghesse how farr these disputations out of scripture are frō clearing doubts what litle good cometh of them vnlesse they bee well gouerned And how for the most part the best credit or the best tongue carrieth awaie the day by the Auditor's preiudicat opinion or weaknesse In a word the scripture being not written for this end to wit for the
decision of controuersies it is not to bee expected that it should bee of it selfe without the churche's authoritie much profitable for that pourpose but to informe our liues by an ordinarie reading of it or by preaching singing and such like vses things recommended in the verie letter it self whereas wee are neuer seÌ„t to the word for the deciding of controuersies And now I hope you are fully satisfied Nephew I am so in deede and giue you manie thankes for I see that how few pointes soeuer the Protestants pretende to be necessarie yet caÌ„ there not anie thing be conuinced out of bare words inuoluing soe manie vncertainties as you haue tould me of Vncle. It is to litle pourpose for them to saie that some few substaÌ„tiall and necessarie pointes may bee proued out of scripture it were fitter they would first proue that the scripture is an instrument made to determine controuersies or anie other of those principles which I shewd you must of necessitie be true if scripture bee our rule But this they can neuer proue And therefore they seeke first to withdraw vs from a secure and naturall meanes of relying vpon our forefathers Which neuerthelesse in all ciuill and oeconomicall conuersation they them selues can not liue without and then to leaue vs to a labyrinth of voluntary and vnendable disputations Reflect then I pray cozen vpon what wee haue said and compare our yesternight's and this our morning's discourse together considering first how manie things are of necessitie to bee conserued in the church for the preseruation of faith and good life in hir subiects Then see how manie pointes haue beene and are quarelled and if anie haue escaped how all the rest may be caled in question with as much probabilitie and apparence as these are Then looke vpon the qualities of that Decider of controuersies where vnto all the Aduersaries of the Catholike church doe seeke to draw vs by which there can be no other end of controuersies but to leaue euerie man to his owne will And then conclude that these positions being put there will nether remaine gouerment in the church nor certaintie or constancie in beliefe nor anie thing to be taught and practized worthie God Allmightie's sending of a lawgiuer muchlesse of sending his owne sonne vpon those hard conditioÌ„s which wee appreheÌ„de of Iesus Christ and reade in the Ghospell Nephew It is verie true but if your leaue mee thus I shall bee like him who had fargot his Pater noster but not learned his Our father For you haue taught mee what I cannot rely vpon but not what I ought to rely vpon And there is so much said against the authoritie of the church by all hir Aduersaries that a man who hath beene euer beaten to those obiections cannot easily leaue them without some scrupule Vncle. You are in the right the most necessarie part is yet behinde for a litle building is better then a great deale of pulling downe Therefore when your leisure serueth you I will bee readie to giue you satisfaction to the best of my power But now this morning is too farr spent to beginne so large a discourse as that question doth require Take an other time and the sooner the more welcome But for the present God be with you I haue some prayers to save THE THIRD DIALOGVE By what meanes Controuersies in Religion may be ended This Dialogue containeth 15. parts or paragraphes 1. THe Preface or Introduction 2. What force the arguments of Protestants against Catholikes ought to haue 3. That standing in likelyhood the Catholike partie is greater more learned and more vertuous 4. Of what efficacitie is this argumeÌ„t 5. That it is no hard matter that Christ's law should haue desceÌ„ded entire vnto vs. 6. That if Christ's law could haue beene conserued it hath beene conserued 7. That no great errour could creepe in to the church of God 8. That the truth of the Catholike doctrine hath continued in the church 9. That the dissention of Catholike Doctours coÌ„cerning the rule of faith doth not hurt the certaintie of tradition 10. That the teaching of Christian doctrine without determining what of necessitie is to be belieued and what not hurte's not the progresse of tradition 11. That no errour can passe vniuersally through the church of God 12. That these precedente discourses beare an absolute certaintie 13. Some obiections are solued 14. The Examples of traditions which seeme to haue failed are examined 15. The conclusion of the whole discourse §. 1 The Introduction NEPHEW I am come vncle to challenge you of your promise for I cannot be quiet vntill you haue setled me in this so weightie a matter If the pointes which are in coÌ„trouersie be as you saie and as you haue clearly shewd me of great consequence and that by scripture we cannot decide them against contentious meÌ„ I see that ether wee must seeke some other meanes or els all Religion wil bee confounded and the truth of Christ's law vnknowne and neglected Wherefore I pray if you can giue mee a strong resolution in this point Vncle. Why nephew if this feruour continue you will not neede be a scholler but for a yeare aÌ„d a day I pray you coÌ„sidere it is a faire daie and you neuer want imployment for the afternoones when the wether 's faire if I should staie you now you would perhapps so repent it that I should not I feare see you againe this month be not so greedie as to take a surfeite Nephew I feare my owne inconstancie and therefore I pray refuse me not discontinuance may breede coaldnesse specially if what you haue alreadie taught me should bee sullyed with worse thoughts and then I should not be so capable of your instructions as I hope I am at this present Which I haue good reason to make great esteeme of Vncle. Well if you will haue it so you must giue me leaue to trench vpon a good part of your Afternoone for I may bee long in this point and I would be loath to breake of in the midle Yet I will bee as short as possibly I can Tell me then had Iesus Christ euer a church or no And I would haue you answere me what you thinke a iudicious Protestant would saie to the same demande Nephew I doubt not but anie Protestant of them all would answere you that at least in the Apostles time Christ had a visible church coÌ„sisting of the faithfull which adhered to the Apostles and such Bishopps as were made by them but that since that time it is fallen into great errours and ether mainely Apostated from the true doctrine of Christ or at least â—o deformed it that a reformation was necessarie euen in pointes of beliefe And this reforme their forefathers vndertooke Vncle. You are likewise persuaded I suppose cozen by the same euidence that in the Apostles time this church was a communion with the particular church of Rome and therefore I will goe a litle further and aske you
iudgment such differences I saye make Aliens and deserue to be cutt of from communion Vncle. You haue discursed well but not home at least to the second part of the replye about the pointes them selues whether they be but matters of opinion or no what saye you to that Nephew That also is euident to me to witt that the pointes disputed betwixt Catholikes and Protestants are most materiall and substaÌ„tiall ones For suppose Christ's bodie be truly and really in the Blessed Sacrament and that t' is God him self which the Priest sheweth the people to adore it suerly can be no slight offence not to giue him due honnor nor contrariewise no smale crime to adore that for God which truly is not so If Christ haue left the authoritie of gouerment to Bishops of Absolution from sinnes to Priests it is no indifferent nor pettit busines to take theÌ„ out of the church If it be Idolatrie to hoÌ„nor images praye to Saincts and the like can we thinke it no great matter whether we doe so or no seing the scripture full of so manie plagues faling vpon rhe Iewes for Idolatrie Vncle. Why cozen may not a Protestant answere you likewise that if one of the opinions controuerted betwixt Thomists and Scotists be Pelagianisme the other Caluinisme can you thinke that such pointes are of smale importance Wherefore he will tell you that all such pointes are verie hard questions graue learned and vnpassionate men on both sides and therefore what so euer the truth be in it self yet so long as God Allmightie see 's our harts to be right towards him and that we desire to doe what his law teacheth vs so farr as we are able to know it all these and the like opinions are but only materiall errors and doe not hinder vs from being good Christians Nephew Truly Vncle you haue puzled me now for vnlesse such pointes and questions doe trench vpon the churche's authoritie why should not the church beare with such opinions but so seuerely cast them out of communion ad shutt heauen gates vpon the Authours and Beginners of them Certes vnlesse there be some necefsitie why certaine pointes are to be knowne by the whole church others not I confesse I cannot answere you but I come to learne and therefore when my owne discourse reacheth not I must craue your helping hand to direct me And I shall thinke the yeare well hanselled if you make me vnderstand what pointes are to be knowne of necessitie and why but first I pray tell me §. 2 Whence proceedeth and dependeth the necessitie of knowing pointes of Religion VNCLE To sett you in the waye you must first tell me what you thinke this word necessitie doth importe so farr as it concerne's our pourpose Nephew You know I am no great claâ—ke and therefore I cannot speake of necessitie nether as a Gramarian nor as a Logician but as farr as I vnderstand and intende by my question there is two sortes of necessities the one so absolute as that the thing we desire cannot without such a meanes be anie waies gotten or doÌ„ne the other in respect of such a meanes without the which our desire cannot bee well and conueniently obtained For we commonly saie that such or such a thing cannot be done or gotten when it is extreme hard and painefull to gett it And therefore some times we call that necessarie without which our desire cannot be fullfilled but with great labour and difficultie and some times that without which it cannot absolutely be compassed Vncle. Mary cozen you neede nether Gramarian nor Logician to helpe you The necessitie of knouing pointes of faith is to be compared to a church or coÌ„panie of belieuers and not to euerie particularman nor to mende what you haue said But since you are so skilfull and that you now see what is necessarie in generall to witt the know ledge of Christian doctrine and what it is to be necessarie I will trouble you with a farther demaÌ„de giuing you first this caueat That my intention is not to examine or declare what expresse and distinct knowledge or beliefe ought euerie particular and indiuiduall man to haue whithout which he cannot possibly be saued this being a thing depending of so manie secret and vnknowne circumstances as that it seemeth to be specialy reserued as only befitting God's infinite wisdome and deuine iustice though some times a prudent man may shrodly guesse and in a possible supposition of a particular man's dying without repentance in a positiue and wilfull contradicting beliefe to the doctrine of the Catholike church it would be no breach of charitie to conclude his daÌ„nation Yet at this present we will only speake of the necessitie of knowing and belieuing seuerall controuerted pointes of Christian doctrine in respect of a church or coÌ„panie of professed Christians in coÌ„mon and not as the knowledge thereof is necessarie to euerie particular man Now therefore tell me what is the end for which this knowledge of Christian doctrine is necessarie Nephew How be knowledge of Christian doctrine cometh to be nessarie to saluation That I suppose no man doubteh but t' is heauen or in more learned termes the sight or true and proper knowledge of Allmightie God who being the cause and Creator of All things he that clearely see 's and truâ—y know's him will see and know all other things in him which all together fall so farr short of giuing such content as is taken by seeing him that the sight of him is only accompted Blisse and the sight of all the rest is but a retenue and conuenience of that first and cheefe sight which of it self alone is our essentiall Happinesse Vncle. This I confesse cozen is both verie true and verie well said of you but yet I must haue an other answere for sure you haue ouer skipp't some thing What connection is there I pray betwixt the knowledge of Christian doctrine and seeing of Allmightie God Some thing I saie must of necessitie be betwixt them for which what soeuer it be the knowledge of Christian doctrine will be more immediately necessarie Which if you can tell me what it is we shall thereby more easily discouer and conceiue what and how farr this knowledge of Christian doctrine is necessarie for vs. Nephew Why vncle you know I haue beene taught no farther then to know what I ought to belieue and doe and that in belieuing and doeing so I shall come to heauen Vncle. And were you not taught that the commandements were resumed and coÌ„prehended in two to wit in the loue of God and of your neighour Nephew Yes that I was but what that appertaine's to your question that I vnderstand not vnlesse peraduenture your meaning be that the accomplishment of these two lawes is the immediate stepp to our Blisse Which as I see t' is verie likely yet doe I not fully conceiue why it should be so vnlesse heaueÌ„ goe by wishing whereas I haue still beene taught it goe's by
to be suspected as not true to anie authoritie though he professe to acknowledge it Vncle. Softly cozen softly there 's nothing more frequteÌ„ amongst men then through passion and ouersight to forsake their owne principles and contradict in one matter what them selues confesse in an other And therefore although it be true by coÌ„sequeÌ„ce of reason that who soeuer doth rise against the church in this kinde may vpoÌ„ the same grounde and principle be false to anie other authoritie or gouerment yet vpon other reasons or by not seeing the consequence of his fact he may likewise be true and faithfull And therefore it were rashnesse to condemne for this reason alone those truths which such an one may perhapps mantaine in other matters Howsoeuer is not our coÌ„clusion manifest that there is no place for Ifs and And 's in our case where there can be no euidence brought against a pointe of doctrine which the highest Tribunall and Iudgment vpon earth hath alreadie decreed But suppose some one or few of these innouators had Euidence on their side yet the vulgar people whom they putt on to mutinie cannot haue it no nor anie certaintie that these their ring leaders haue Euidence being not able to compare vnderstandingly the worth of diuers men in a busines which surpasseth their capacitie And therefore this common people in such a case must neede 's proceede and doe whatsoeuer they doe vpon passioÌ„ surprise or interest And consequently those innouators who moued caried and pressed them therevnto cannot be excused from being culpable of temeritie obstinacie and Archi-Rebellion Yet as a Prince doth some times coÌ„descende to his Rebellious subiects that he may gaine time and so bring them to reason as Roboam's wiser Councell thought fitt to giue eare to the cryes of the communities for once that they might serue him euer after So I doubt not but the church both may and will relent some times a litle to establish hir Gouerment and good order more strongly an other time Nor is she to be reprehended if contrariewise she be rigorous vpoÌ„ occasions to witt when she see 's that relenting weaken's hir authoritie and doth rather increase then assuage the mutinie But what is now and then conuenient to be done that belong's to them who are in place to iudge And for vs to obey and sâ—ill suppose they doe the best Nephew Hitherto vncle me thinke's I am well satisfied but there 's a maine difficultie about the diuersitie of the rule of faith I pray tell mee doe you not thinke §. 7 That the maintenance of the vnitie of the church is of extreme great necessitie FOr we professe you know that tradition or the receite of our doctrine from father to sonne is our cheefe authoritie and our prime motiue of faith All others will acknowledge no other rule then their owne interpretatioÌ„ of the scripture This in my minde is the most important question of all the controuersies in Religion and vpon the resolution of this pointe doth rely and depende all other disputs and difficulties of christian faith nay eueÌ„ our being truly and properly Christians or faithfull For if Christ was a lawmaker not euerie one who professeth his name but who obserueth his law is truly a Christian What it is to be a Christian And if Christ haue sett downe a certaine rule or manner and certaine Magistrats by whom we are to know this law whosoeuer doth not follow that rule and acknowledge those Magistrates cannot be said to obserue his law and consequeÌ„tly professe Christ's name wrongfully Vncle. Doe you thinke cozen that who doth not obserue Christ's law is no Christian what then shall become of sinners shall none of them be ChristiaÌ„s nor of the church of Christ you will make a church of only Elects or Predestinates as the Puritants doe Nephew It may be I goe to farr yet certainely who doth not keepe Christ's law or professe to keepe it is no Christian But then me thinke's I goe to farr on the other side for all those that professe Christ's name doe likewise professe to keepe his law how litle soeuer they doe Vncle. Why then cozen I will helpe you out and open the state of the question vnto you First you must know that this word Ecclesia in it's primitiue sense signifieth a meeting or coÌ„gregatioÌ„ of meÌ„ called out of a greater multitude What is a church as a Councell or Senate is And becaus the first ChristiaÌ„s were called in that manner by Christ and his Apostles Ioh. 15. Ego vos elegi de mundo therefore we properly and deseruedly call the multitude of ChristiaÌ„s a Church Now a multitude called to gether is not only and simply a multitude which may importe confusion but a multitude gathered together and vnited wherein consist's the vnitie of the church If you aske wherein this multitude we speake of is vnited t' is knowne that t' is to doe the will of the caller who being Iesus that is sauiour or Director to saluation their calling must be to walke the paths of saluatioÌ„ And sithence we haue no other Maister of our saluation but Iesus Christ t' is euident that the vnitie of his church must consiste in the obseruance of his law Secondly you are to note that there are two sortes of vnities the one of similitude the other of connection We saie all men are of one nature that 's an vnitie of similitude we saie likewise all the parts of a man though dislike in themselues make one man there 's an vnitie of connectioÌ„ Now if the church of Christ had beene to continue only for his owne or his Apostle's time the former vnitie would haue serued Nay euen now if all the Christians who liue at this day doe and performe the same things practize the same faith and good life and vse the same Sacraments This vnitie of similitude would suffice to make the church of Christ one for the present but could not make it subsiste and continue there being no connection amongst the parts and members of this multitude to make them sticke together Wherefore Christ hauing planted a multitude of faithfull which he intended should subsiste and continue for manie ages no doubt but he hath giuen them such an vnitie as is necessarie for coÌ„tinuance Thirdly therefore you must note that there are two sortes of multitudes in this world which subsiste and continue the one naturall as the parts of a liuing creature the other morall as the members of communities or commonwealths and both haue their proportionall vnities For the first we see that in plantes all the members haue a due connection to the roote from which being cutt of the part dyeth for want of continuitie In other liuing creatures we likewise finde at hart or some thing else that supplie's it's function by connectioÌ„ wherevnto euerie part receiueth life and subsistence and whose passage or communication with that hart being stopped and cutt off the part by litle and
pretende to Christ's law and doctrine yet vnlesse they be ioyned and vnited to that coÌ„munitie which hath this gouerment and the true rule to know and continue Christ's law they cannot generaly speaking be saued HoW some may be saued out of the church But you said one thing which truble's me to wit that some be saued euen without these conditions which is against our commoÌ„ saying that there 's no saluatioÌ„ out of the church of God and therefore you know we labour to gett people reconciled and vnited to the church euen in the hower of their death which would not be so needfull if saluation could be had out of the church Vncle. Why cozen doe you not saye that euerie man hath two leggs two eyes and the like though some particular men be destitute of both we saye men cannot liue without meate and yet some haue liued manie yeares without it We saie men cannot liue in the water and yet t' is writt that the Portugalls in their discoueries found a man whose habitation was in the sea and came only to land as Crocodiles and seacalfes doe So you see we putt vniuersall denominations vpon the common and generall and that without preiudice to lawfull exceptions of rareties or prodigies You know there 's no generall rule but hath an exception and Logicians saie ars non curat de accidentibus ac fortuitis Nephew But I pray you shew me why t' is a rare accident for a man to be saued out of the church For example if we looke into the teneâ—â— of our Protestants I see not why they may not be said to hold sufficient pointes of faith both to attaine to the loue of God which is the cheefe path of saluation but also to liue an ordinarie and competeÌ„t good life amongst their neighbours which is the compleatnesse of God's law Vncle. Were not man a ciuill and sociall animall that is to liue with others I should not denye but a Protestant might more ordinarily be saued For as you said well they hold as manie tenents with the Catholike church as be in some sorte sufficient for the directioÌ„ of a priuate maÌ„'s life But God hath coÌ„manded euerie maÌ„ to haue care of his neighbour at least so farr as not to hinder him from such things as be necessarie to his saluation And manie things being necessarie to a multitude which are not needefull to euerie particular and priuat person he that hindre's the multitude from such necessarie meanes and assistance can neuer be saued himself As if some Prouince or part of a commonwealth should start vp and refuse diuers antient lawes necessarie for the good and peaceable liuing of the whole multitude some priuate men perhapps of this prouiâ—ce might so liue and beâ—iâ—â—â— them selues as to correspond and complie with the end and intention of the whole common wealth in vertue of some such other laws and status 〈◊〉 might be generally admitted and commonly receiued by them all but sure it is that the multitude and communitie of this prouince would neuer reach to this perfection wanting as we suppose seuerall laws and institutioÌ„s necessarâ—â— for them in common and in generall Now that the Catholike's tenents which the Protestants refuse and contradict are of this nature to witt that they are necessarie for the multitude t' is euident As Gouerment of the whole church and those lawes and Canons which these Gouernors vniuersally assembled doe ennact and ordaine for the good of the totall multitude and in particular praying for the deade praying to Sancts The vse of pictures Sacraments Ceremonies and the like which Christ or his Apostle's or their successors instituted for the benefit of the vniuersal communitie and multitude Amongst whom there being diuers tasts one is pleased with one thing an other with something else Wherefore the Protestants in contradicting these pointes hinder the multitude of their saluatioÌ„ supposing these things be good and necessarily ordained as we Catholikes suppose and as I will shew yoâ— presently and therefore tâ— pronounce generally of thâ— Protestants that they cannoâ— be saued though we doe noâ— absolutly exclude euerie particular man who through ignorance may for anie thinâ— I know be excused from thâ— guilt of Protestancie Nephew I am hartily glaâ— to heare you saie that somâ— may be excused for I shaâ— haue better hopes of some oâ— my deceased friends then hitherto I haue had But sinâ—â— you are fallen into this diâ—course I pray lett me vnderstand why the Protestants ceâ—sure vs of being vncharitable when we saye they shalbâ— damned vnlesse they be excused by ignorance For sure they them selues must needes saie as much of vs sithence they accuse vs of Idolatrie and other hainous crimes and consequently they must be as vncharitable as we or else they will runne into a contradition Vncle. The mixture of Protestants and Puritants in one common wealth hath and must of necessitie draw manie into errour who cannot distinguish which be Protestants which be Puritants nor whether's doctrine it is that vrged For this verie blaming of our vncharitablenesse which I thinke is as old as Protestancie it selfe sheweth that the true Protestants haue euer beene of this opinion that the disputes betwixt Catholikes and them were but matters of indifferencie I remember when I was a boy there dyed a vertuous Catholike a Kinsman of myne and at the same time dyed a morall honest Protestant and the countrie said they were both gone to heauen but the one by Rome the other by Geneua and so the Papist hath the longer iourney And the imputation which the people generally laid vpon Catholikes was that they oppressed men with too great and vnnecessarie burdens and forced men to their opinions And this caÌ„not be otherwise according to the grounds of Protestants for we haue all that they haue and more and in particular we refuse nothing that can be proued by scripture which is the maine principle of Protestanisme being the only rule and fundation of their beliefe and we damne as well as they who soeuer will not belieue what is euideÌ„t in the scripture only we sticke to what our forefathers haue taught vs according to the principles of nature common sense and the examples of all the laws and common wealths of the world vntill the contrarie be cleered against vs. Wherefore ProtestaÌ„ts being strongly vrged must ether saie in their heate that Catholikes can giue no probable or apparent answere to those places of the scripture which they bring and alledge against them which must needes be ether an ignorant or a madd man's speach or else that such questions as are disputed betwixt them and vs are of indifferencie and not of necessitie Wherefore I belieue that those who saie that they ought and may censure vs as freely as we censure them smell of Puritanisme leauing the Protestants in the maine pointe Nether is this to answere but to acknowledge that want of charitie which true Protestants obiect against vs and so
Apostles had left to all churches the booke it self It is likely therefore that the ould Testament was brought in by the first Christians ' of the CircuÌ„cision who accepted of those bookes which they saw the Apostles honnor and make vse of and from them it came to the Gentill Christians and so by litle and litle was accepted of by all the Christian church with the same veneration that the Apostles and Iewish Christians gaue vnto it But how soeuer shall wee not thinke at least §. 3 That tradition for scripture is more vniuersall then traditioÌ„ for doctrine NEphew Surely vncle for my part I caÌ„not thinke but that the scripture hath a more vniuersall tradition theÌ„ anie point of Christian doctrine or at least then anie of those which are disputed betwixt vs and the Protestants seeing that all Christians doe agree in the acceptation of the scripture and farr fewer in diuers pointes of doctrine For such churches as are in communion with the church of Rome are no such extraordinarie part of christendome if they were compared to all the rest Vncle. For the Extent of the churches I cannot certainely tell you the truth because I feare manie are caled ChristiaÌ„s who haue litle ether in their beliefe or liues to verifie that name But you know in witnesses the qualitie is to be respected as well and more theÌ„ the quantitie So that such couÌ„tries in which Christianitie is vigorous are to be preferred before a greater Extent of such as are where litle remaines more then the name But to come neerer to your difficultie suppose that in a suite in law one side had seuen lawfull witnesses the other had as manie and twentie knights of the post knowne periured knaues or vnlawfull witnesses more would you cast the other side for this wicked rable Nephew No truly for seing the law doth inualidate their testimonie I should wrong the partie to make anie accompt of them and therefore I should judge the parties equall Vncle. Why then you see that who will challenge a more vniuersall Tradition for scripture then for doctrine must first be certaine that there is no lawfull exception against those Christians whom he calleth to witnesse to witt against the Armans NestoriaÌ„s Eutychians and the like Now the Catholike church accounteth these men wicked in the highest degree that is guiltie of Heresie and schisme And therefore the partie which esteemeth of their witnesse must by taking of them for honnest men beare him self for their fellow and account the Roman church wicked and not fitt for testimonie from whom neuerthelesse he hath receiued what soeuer he hath of Christ Besides the witnesse and testimonie which these men giue is only that they receiued scripture from that church which excluded them from communion at their beginnings and euer continued in opposition against them to witt the Catholike Wherefore it is euident that their testimonie addeth nothing to the testimonie of the Catholike church but only declareth what the testifieth nor consequently maketh anie traditioÌ„ more vniuersal Let vs therefore now see whether §. 4 The text of scripture can haue remained incorrupted or no. FOr hitherto we haue only compare the and 〈◊〉 of scripture in itselfe to tradition now we will come a litle closser and compared it as we haue it to the same doctrine deliuered once 〈…〉 tradition I meane that hitherto we haue spoken as if we had those verie bookes which the canonicall writer made with their owne hande and of what authoritie they would be But now we will considere their since we haue but copies of them of what authoritie these copies ought to be Can you resolue this question Nâ—phew I doubt not sir but for that end which wee seeke that is to make a iudge of controuersies euerie word euerie letter and euerie title must be admitted of absolute and vncontrolable certainâ—ie And so I heare the vulgar edition in latine is commaÌ„ded to be held amongst vs. For I easily see that if anie one sentence may be quarrelled euerie one will incurre the same hazard all being equaly deliuered and equaly warranted with reason and authoritie Vncle. You saie verie well for where there is no lesse theÌ„ the soules of the whole world at the stake I see not what aduantage can giue sufficient securitie if there remaine anie notable vncertaintie Our sauiour saith what can all the world auaile anie man if he loose his soule So that where the question is soule or no soule saluation or damnation nothing lesse then certaintie can serue to proceede vpon And therefore no doubt but if the Apostles had intended to leaue the holy writt for the decider of controuersies in Religion they would also haue prouided that infalible copies should haue beene kept and come downe to the church to the end of the world For such care wee see that priuat men haue of conseruing their bargaines and couuenants by making their Indentures vncounterfeitable and enrolling them in publicke offices were they are to remaine vncorrupted the like care hath common wealths to conserue their recordes specially their laws keeping the verie originalls or authenticall copies with verie great care But what neede wee tooke into the examples of â—â—â—en seeing all mightie God in his owne person hath giuen vs a paterne commanding the Deuteronomie to be kept in the Arke which he would haue to be the authenâ—icall copie to iudge betwixt him and his people and this with the greatest veneratioÌ„ that could be imagined or that euer was giuen to anie thing But this was impossible for the Apostles to doe otherwise surely the would haue done it if they had intended that Christs written law should haue beene our iudge by reason of the multitudes of nations and languages which hindered that not anie one booke could be conserued with such securitie and incorruptibilitie as would be requisite in that case both because of the language and of the mutabilitie of the world euer subiect to a thousand accidents whereby such bookes might fall into the hands of those who would not only neglect them but ether willfully corrupt or seeke vtterly to destroy that which was to be the rule and paterne of Christian faith And for that which you saie is commaÌ„ded vs you conceiue amisse For no wise man thinketh that the vulgar edition is so well corrected that much may not be mended How the vulgar edition is to be receiued but t' is that the church hath secured vs that there is nothing against Christian faith or behauiour contained in those bookes which haue so long passed for scripture and are so in deede for the substance of the bookes and therefore hath commanded vs not to refuse this râ—â—â— in anie controuersie on disputation And this wee and wee only caÌ„ doe for the churche's securitie â—â—seth out of this that she hath an other more forcible ground of hir faith to witt tradition by which being assured what the truth is she can confidently pronunce that in
this booke there is nothing contrarie or preiudiciall therevnto which no profession that relyeth only vpon scripture can doe because they must first be assured of the text before they can iudge of the doctrine wherefore if the text itselfe neede a iudge and that it is questionable whether this be the true text or no they must needes be at their witts end according to the principles of raison Let vs therefore see what ambiguitie or question falleth vpon the text it selfe by the succession of so manie ages in which it must needes haue beene in some sorte conserued to come to our hands There be three wayes cheefely whereby the text may haue beene corrupted Three Waies haue corruptions come into the Text. The first on sett pourpose as the fathers accuse the Heretickes of their times to haue done and the Iewes also are suspected of the same And this kinde though it extendeth it selfe but to few corruptions yet they come to be ineuitable wheÌ„ amoÌ„gst soe manie copies none can discerne which haue beene so abused which not and as it is but in few pointes or places so it is in such as bee important and materiall ones The second sort of corruptioÌ„s may haue come by the negligence of seruants which copied the Bible some being mercenarie people that made copies to sell others wittlesse people who greedie and desirous to haue the Bible out of vanitie hypocrisie or the like cared not for more then to saie they had it and a great part of these copists may haue erred in writing the Bible by the verie defect of nature which permitteth not an absolut exactnesse in anie thing and causeth a man in his wearinesse nay and in his too much warinesse also to make escapes vnwittingly which be the more dangerous by how much the copies seeme more exact whereby some times the beare downe true copies The third waye of corruption may haue beene by halfe-witted men who will now and then vndertake to correct copies by ayme and vnderstaÌ„ding who for hauing lighted right in some one place will venter confidently to spoile tenne And of these men t' is like before printing began and copies were not so frequent and so a corruption went not farr t' is like I say there hath beene diuers who wheÌ„ they mett with a place they could not make sense of and saw that a litle change would make it sense such rash their would easily vener to make such a smale as they thought mutation not knowing peradueÌ„ture how to come to a better copie then their owne The Hebrew and Greeke Testament haue beene verie subiect to the first sorte of these corruptions the former being deliuered vnto vs by the professed enimies of Christ who as it is reported in the greatest heat of their hatred to Christianitie sate at Tiberias to determine all the vowels of the ould scripture the which euerie Hebritian knoweth what power it gaue them to change the whole text and this to men publickely accused of forgerie in that kinde The Greeke as long as the coÌ„demned Heretickes held so great power in those parts 〈◊〉 is publickely knowne they did for some ages was in litle lesse jeopardie they being also taxed with the like impietie But the other two wayes and meanes of corruptions are common to all and in deede vnauoidable in so great a multitude of copies as were in all the three languages at least of Greeke and latin And now cozen can you tell mee what hazard this must needes breede in the text it selfe that is What vncertaintie the errours §. 5 of writers and copists hath bredd in scripture NEPHEW Nay mary that posseth my vnderstanding for if I should calculate so manie copies to haue beene mâ—de and then estimate what errours may haue escaped in euerie copie the number peraduenture would exceede the words of the Bible For let vs take a boke of 2000. columnes and let vs likewise suppose which is verie likely that as manie copies were made in some age of an hundreth yeare and let vs then put 56. lines to a columne and 6. words to a line and so there will be in one columne 336. Words And farther may wee not well suppose that there was as manie faults escaped in euerie copie one with an other as there bee words in a columne which being supposed you will finde that the number of all the errours escaped in all the copies which haue beene made since the Apostles time will amouÌ„te to 15. or 16. times as manie as there bee words in the Bible Wherefore by this accompte it would be 15. or 16. to one of anie particular place that it were not the true text Which me thinkes cannot be true Vncle. I doe not thinke that you haue taken your proportions too high for if you looke into the most part euen of printed bookes of such a great volume as the Bible is revewe them well and you will finde a whole columne of errata in euerie one and you know printing is donne with more ease and lesse toile to the braine and hath ordinarily 2. or 3. corrections before it be drawne which helps written copies haue not But yet I must tell you that you missed it in one thing you marked not that the errours of so manie copies may haue beene the same in diuers of them otherwise truly your calculation would proue that wee migh looke for scripture in scripture and not finde it and the like with some proportioÌ„ in all bookes I saie with some proportion for to thinke alltogether the like of Cicero Demostenes and others is not reasonable because there were few copies made of them as only for some curious and learned men whereas the Bible concerned euerie man so nearely that few would be with out it that could vnderstand Lattin And yet I doubt not but you remember well inough since you were a student what varietie of texts and pretentions of corruptioÌ„s you found amongst the Critikes and commentaries euen of those prophane authours And to your calculation I will add an other suppose there were as manie written copies extant as the number of your columnes and as much varietie in those which haue not beene examined as in those which haue beene looked into And farther that Sixtus Quintus for the setting out of his Bible caused only an hundred to be examined And that in his Bible the corrections amounte as it is knowne they doe to the nuÌ„ber of two thousand doe you not see that the computation made of the various sections of all those copies would make twentie for euerie coluÌ„ne And truly wee caÌ„not imagine that there hath beene so for ether Latin or Greeke copies And whereas in this computation wee only esteeme them to haue beene but 2000. suppose as it is verie like that there hath beene at least an hundreth thousand in ether language in so manie ages and in so great an extent of readers And those which are not Extant Whereof none in particular can be
correction and amendment of the Bible whose complaints of the varietie of texts all the world knowes and indeede the inutilitie and discommoditie of such multiplicitie caused them all to be neglected though some thinke our vulgata editio to haue euer beene conserued Howsoeuer we may goe on with our supposition and add that of those twenty trāslatiōs now extāt euerie one is equall to anie other Let then a sentence be proposed whose nature and definition is to decide a controuersie but with this condition which ordinarily happeneth in such a case to witt that it dependeth on the proprietie of some word or on the Emphasis of some manner of speaking Is it possible that anie reasonable man should thinke that all these translations will agree in such a thing Three or fouer peraduenture may but for twentie t' is absolutly impossible And if anie one of these translations be substantially different all the rest cannot with certaintie or euidence beare it downe sithence this might be out of a different copie with which perhapps agreed more then we haue so that we shall still returne to our former non liquet And hence followeth that although a translation in the whole bulke be morally the same booke with the originall yet metaphysically and rigorously there is great diuersitie and at least such as in our case maketh all translations of the scripture vnfitt to decide cōtrouersies by them Nephew Your discourse will not only make mee beleeue what I haue heard reported S. Augustin should saie Epist Man funda cep 5. that hee would not belieue scripture vnlesse the church's authoritie moued him therevnto but I feare it tendeth to the too great weakening of the scripture which hath beene so happily planted in the church and got this supereminent authoritie which it hath to some good effect without doubt though not for the decision of controuersies and therefore you will proue to much and in seeking to destroy one errour you will bee in danger to fall into an other This I am sure of that if you should preach this doctrine at S. Antolins the people would stone you with their brasencornerd Bibles though peraduenture if they laid all their heads together they could not giue you a sufficient answere But thus much I learne now when I reflect vpon them that they haue no reason to obiect against vs our trusting of our church and Pastours for the sense and explication of the scripture whereas thē selues must needes rely vpon a douzen or twenty Parsons or Ministers if there were so manie imployed in their translation for the verie text it self whose skills or wills might be defectiue according to their owne maxime so that we rely vpon the whole church they pore people vpon what they nether thinke certaine nor infalible nor probable but as farr as they please Vncle. I will finde a time to satisfie your feares of my diminishing the scripture's authoritie and will shew you how all I haue said doth nothing preiudice the layfull and intended vse of the scripture and if I should chance to forget I pray you put mee in minde before we part For the present I will propose you an other difficultie which is §. 7 Whether the verie rehearsing and citing of an others words doe not breede varietie and vncertaintie ANd let vs suppose the writer him self play the translatour As for example that our sauiour him self hauing spoken in Hebrew or Syriake the Holy writer is to expresse his words in Greeke or Latin And farther that this which we haue said of translatiōs be as truly it is groūded in the verie nature of diuers languages and therefore vnauoidable by anie art or industrie will it not clearely followe that euen in the originall copie writtē by the Euāgelist's owne hand there is not in rigour the true and self-significant words of our sauiour but rather a comment or Paraphrase explicating and deliuering the sense thereof Nay let him haue written in the same language and let him haue set downe euerie word and sillable yet men conuersant in noting the changes of meanings in words will tell you that diuers accents in the prononciation of them the turning of the speakers head or bodie this way or that way the allusion to some person or to some precedēt discourse or the like may so change the sense of the words that they will seeme quite different in writing from what they were in speaking So that you see how like negligent men wee cōmonly vse to presse words as the proper and identicall words of our sauiour finding them registred in the Holy writt Which in rigour and exactly speaking are but in some sorte an imperfect and equiuocall paraphrase or expression of Christ's owne true words the weakenesse of mā's speach and expressiō bearing no greater exactnesse And surely all experienced men but especially disputatife schollers who finde meanes dayly to explicate the planest words of ā authour to a quite different sense will tell you that to seeke to conuince an exact truth out of bare and dead words is to put your self into a darke some and wild laborinth And to rely vpon them is to fixe the Camelions colours in the currēt of the winde or water Wherefore cozen hauing I thinke sufficiently tould you my minde concerning the text it self let vs goe farther and looke into §. 8 The vncertaintie of equiuocatiō which of necessitie is incident in all writings ANd to proceede more clearely wee will suppose for the present that there is but one authenticall copie of the scripture written in some one language and hereby abstract from all varieties of texts by translations or errours or anie such accident and meerely considere what of necessitie followes out of this that the scripture is a booke written in words of men and whether this supposed there can be anie decisiue and decretory sense euidently and certainely gathered out of it Tell me then cozen doe you thinke t' is an easie matter to decide cōtrouersies by words or why not Nephew I know words are but signes of what is in our mindes sett and ordained to that ende by the will of man wha ars words and therefore that diuers men signifying their mindes by diuers signes come to make diuers languages And I know likewise that though it bee an ordinarie thing amongst vs to hange vp a bush to signifie thereby that in the house there is wine to be sould yet peraduenture in an other coūtrye some thing else may signifie the selling of wine and a bush some other thing So may it happen that the same word in one language may signifie one thing and in an other some thing else And because I likewise see that it may so fall out that these two nations ioyne in one or haue much commerce together by vse and custome this word may come to haue two significations euen in the same language And so will breede a difficultie in whether of the two senses it is to be
hee needeth not produce the text for it The new Testament is Historicall Epistolar The diuision of the bookes ef the new Testament or Misticall which by their verie names and natures exclude all such exactnesse as of necessitie is required to a iudging law they being all written vpō speciall occasions and for particular ends manie things repeated manie things left out in one which are found in an other scarsely anie one knowing of an others writings Those things which are in the Historie and in the Epistles are expressed as was fitting for the vnderstanding of them to whō they were written or to whom the recited speech was made circumstances farr different to what is conuenient and accōmodated to our vnderstandings now And as an able mā saith of historie that because it must needes leane and rely vpon all circumstances euen of smale moment he that should gouerne him selfe by it must of necessitie be misled so in our case the want of knowing circumstances and not comprehending the true meaning of what was written in a particular occasion must of necessitie make vs apt and subiect to take our ayme and rule amisse The misticall booke which we call the Apocalips being a pure Allegorie is the most vnfitting of all This in my iudgment is so euident that if anie man of common sense would but reflect and really considere what is requisite to determine a litigious controuersie betwixt two men passionate of their owne opinions he would neuer saie that scripture is a booke ether intended by Allmightie God or anie waie fit for such a pourpose Besides a prudent and experienced man will tell you that who looketh in to the various dispositions of men's vnderstandings but especially of men's wills and seeth the varietie and miltiplicitie of men's interests and passions Which for the most part are publickly noted in euerie mā or at least so inwardly hidden and secretly couered that some times euen he who would and doth sweare and protest him self free from all such pre-occupations is neuerthelesse the most dangerously intangled that such an one I saie will neuer thinke to finde two in two thousand who left to their owne libertie will agree in the interpretatiō of anie law how plane soeuer where both are oppositly interressed But if wee put this law to be supernatural and Deuine full of misticall and sublime commandes wherevnto nature hath not the least inckling whereby to raise hir self to the knowledge thereof but must of necessitie wholy and precisely rely vpon authoritie and captiuate hir vnderstanding in obsequium fidei and this to the most obscure and darke points and articles that can be imagined shall wee saie that in this case euerie one is to gather this law and come to the knowledge of it as well as he can out of the scripture alone so full of infinite ambiguitie as you haue seene Were it not first to be proued that scripture was made and intended for this end which how possible it is to performe let anie indifferent mā iudge Whereas to remitte the iudgment of all quarells disputes and controuersies of Religiō vnto liuing men is more efficacious more sutable to nature and discretion and in a word conformable to the practize of our forefathers and to the principles of common sense and reason Nephew I must confesse I shall neuer thinke scripture was giuen for a iudge of controuersies For to make so large a booke and to mingle in it so manie things which ether appertaine not at all to the substance of our beliefe or be verie remotely cōnexed vnto it And then to leaue it to our ghessing what may be the meaning of the words doth plainely argue some other intention in the writer then to set downe a standing and authenticall text to decide quarells And although I heare the Protestants saie that a plaine passage cleareth an obscure so may it be said that an obscure passage darkeneth a cleere so that 's all one Wherefore I long to know for what vse the scripture was made Vncle. Haue yet a litle patience cozen Diuers substantiall points haue beene opposed by antient Heretickes and make a reflexion vpon some cheefe pointes which haue beene cōtrouerted in the church of God As by the Arrians how a spirituall ād indiuisible essēce such as God is coulde haue a natural sonne By the Trinitarians and Sabellians how the same indiuisible thing could bee three persons By the Nestorians and Eutychians how one person could subsiste in two natures By the Pelagians how God's foreknowledge and predestinatiō could stand with merits and freewill By the Iconoclasts how the adoration of Images tended and ended in the Archetype By the Berangarians how a naturall bodie can haue corporall presence otherwise then by it's quantitie By our Wicklefists how all things be not gouerned by a fatall necessitie And all these renewed by the libertie and confusion of our last ages Considere the subtilitie of these questions how they are aboue nature and aboue our comprehensiō how the truths of these disputes are like the passage betwixt Scylla and Charybdis limited betwixt two errours so narrowly as that when they are spoken of at large and not dogmatically specially before they be examined and before the speaker by mistrust of opposition is made warie it is almost impossible the speaker should be so iust and straight in his language as not to giue occasion to one who comes after him to pretende his fauour for the one or the other errour Considere farther that wrangling witts such as for the most part they are who first beginne a new factiō in the church haue this property that they reduce their questions by litle and litle to logicall and abstracted notiōs and force the Catholikes to follow them if they will not desert their antient truths so that after a while one knoweth not where the controuersie lyeth For example Simon Magus and the first authours of our last Breaches preached that faith did so iustifie as that good workes were not necessarie now their followers drawe the question to this whether faith or charitie be the forme of iustification which is all most pure Logicke Now if an Arrian come and tell you that the scripture saith Pater maior me est and therefore that Christ Iesus was not truly God nor consubstantiall to his father And the like maie be said of the rest of these heresies and euen of all the most substantiall and fundamentall points of Christian faith The Catholike maintaine's the cōtrarie now I saie is it possible that anie rationall man should thinke that these and the like questions can be diffinitiuely resolued by a criticall libratiō of dead and vncertaine words full of equiuocall ambiguitie their sense and meaning lying in the brest and minde of him who is not to be found but deceassed manie ages agone And if they cannot as it is more then euident they cannot shall wee thinke that Christ Iesus hath left and established no meanes
two Protestants of one Religion They Tiffâ—â—iâ— so manie points that they daâ—â—â— one the other for 〈◊〉 belieuers Doe but examine whether the positions wherein they disagree amoÌ„gst themselueâ— be not of as maine importance as those wherein we differ from them all and you shall finde manie of theÌ„to be the verie same Naythere be not two Doctors or persons bere in England of one Religion no nor two laye men who giue them selues to expound scriptures and make their priuat spirit iudge of their beliefe and tenets And this not only because so manie variable phaÌ„sies grounded euerie one vpoÌ„ it selfe cannot possibly agree wherevpon you shall hardly see two meete and conferre of ReligioÌ„ but they will disagree if they talke long but also because all knowledge hath it's vnitie from some setled and certaine principles which being not to be found out of the Catholike church in matters of Religion there can be no vnitie or beliefe amongst Protestants For althought our ParlemeÌ„t hath comanded diuers articles to be â—â—ght in the churches of England yet doth not the Protestant Clergie acknowledge that the Parlement who are theâ—â—â—â—â—ke and taught by the 〈…〉 anie power to iudge or determine pointes of doctrine And in deede it were ridiculous for those who thinke that an vniuersall CoÌ„gregation of Bishopps and the bodie of the whole church may erre in beliefe should 〈◊〉 no attribute this vâ—errable power to their owne schollers Nether doe they that I know of but still mantaine constantly their cheefe grounde that all when are fallible and subiect to erre why Protestants ought not force anie man to belieue with them Where by the way you may note how hardly they deale with Catholikes in punishing them for professing a different faith from theirs seeing that if we belieue differently we must needes professe differeÌ„tly and they by their owne confession not hauing anie authoritie whereby they can or ought force anie maÌ„ to belieue as they doe t' is euident that they must per force contradicte their owne principles if they will persecute vs. Now therefore seeing that to be of one faith is to be of one setled opinion and setling cannot be without infalibilitie or necessitie the Protestants hauing no common principles which them selues esteeme infalible euerie maÌ„ expounding scripture their only rule of faith at his pleasure nor anie hauing power or authoritie to controle an others interpretation of anie passage what soeuer t' is impossible anie two ministers should be of one faith and Religion T' is true per chaÌ„ce they may be of one minde to day but eare night if ether of them light of a place of the scripture which after more consideration seemeth to haue an other sense then he thought before they may well be of different opinions And this in what pointe how materiall or essentiall soeuer These men therefore may be said to be some times of one minde or opinion but neuer of one faith and Religion faith being like mariage not to be taken vp for a yeare and a day but for all Eternitie The learned Catholikes be more learned then the learned Protestants And now to returne to the discourse we ayme at As the number of our learned men doth farr exceede the number of learned Prostants so likewise by all likelyhood doth their learning The English Diuinitie generally speaking is nothing but controuersies which are but the fourth or fift part of Catholike Diuinitie For besides controuersies we haue scholasticall Theologie which explicate's the mysteries of our faith and shewe's their conformitie to nature and naturall reason We haue morall Diuinitie which searche's into the practize of the Sacraments aÌ„d Precepts of good life We haue scripture lessons which diue into the deepe sense of the written word of God without farther application We haue misticall Theologie which examine's the extraordinarie waies of conuersation with God And lastly we haue Ecclesiasticall historie which shewe's the progresse increase and practize of Christian faith through all ages and places And of all these we haue I doe not saie bookes or volumes but whole libraries written and extant amongst vs. And for other eruditions as languages Poetrie Rhethoricke Logicke and Philosophie if the Protestants haue anie let them looke into their samples and they shall finde the most eminent and worthie men to haue beene and to be Catholikes so that as of all ReligioÌ„s the Christian so of all Christian's the Catholike is without questioÌ„ the most wise and the most learned profession And what I saye is not to be sought out in old manuscripts or learned papers your eyes and eares will tell it you in Catholike countries and euen in Paule's church yard where you may finde multitudes of volumes of all these sorts of learning written by Catholikes And if their shopps were well shaked vp I doubt not but for bookes of worth except some English pamphletts and a few controuersies one hundreth for one would be found to haue beene written by Catholikes What apparence theÌ„ can there be that the Protestants arguments should be so mightie and so cleerely better then what Catholikes can saie for them selues as to beare downe the right of Antiquitie and possessioÌ„ whereof the Catholikes are the sole Claymers Nephew I cannot denie but that your discourse is sound and grounded vpon common sense and vpon such euidence as when I was in Paris I heard was there to bee seene but my minde was then more fixed vpon the Tennis court then vpon such enquiries But why might not one replye that all this and more is necessarie for the iustifying of so euill a quarell If Catholikes be not honest and vertuous men the more learned they are the more daÌ„gerous and more able to mantaine a false position And t' is like the Protestants would replye in this manner for they tell vs that the Pope hath gotteÌ„ so mightie a power ouer our verie vnderstandings that for manie ages we haue bent all our witts how to mantaine his tiles aÌ„d decrees without anie care of truth or probabilitie wherefore the more wit and learning the more blindnesse of passion and interest As the learned Catholikes are more learned theÌ„ the learned ProtestaÌ„ts so they are more vertuous then they Vncle. I did not thinke that learning had deserued so ill at your hands as to censure it so seuerely No no coseÌ„ one maÌ„ or two or three may be the more daÌ„gerous for their learning but not whole multitudes For of it 's owne nature it is a great instrument of vertue being the CompanioÌ„ of truth so that there can be no greater signe of truth in anie ReligioÌ„ then to see it beare the touch of reason and that the professors of it be addicted to learning Besids I pray remember I speake to one who professeth no schollershippe and therefore doe not inquire what is or is not but what is most likely and apparent It must therefore be knowne that the Religion is false before it can
to conuince it by their testimonie take's a hard taske vpon him if he goe rigorously to worke and haue a conning Criticke to his Aduersarie How so euer t' is not a thing fitting for ordinarie and vnlearned people but only for such as haue time at will and great reading and vnderstanding Nephew You haue manie Aduersaries in this opinion for generally men seeke tradition out of the fathers and thinke they haue found it when in euerie age they finde seuerall fathers of the same opinion Vncle. I intende not to detract from their labours who haue taken paines in this kinde for they are profitable and necessarie for the church of God and excellent testimonies of Tradition but I nether thinke it to be the bodie of Tradition but only an effect and consequent of it nor that the multitude of Christians whose faith is to be regulated by Tradition neede to haue recourse to those learned workes Wherefore although diuers fathers in the same or different ages be found to contradict some point whereof the present church is in quiet and immemorable possession their authorities ought not to preuaile nor are they sufficiēt to proue there was not euen in their days a contrarie Tradion For our faith being in some sort naturally grafted in the harts of Christians learned men may now and then mistake some points of it as well as the causes and effects of their owne nature it self according as I tould you but now And as in other points so euen in this to wit in the resolution of faith wherein as our Doctors seeme to differ now a days so might the fathers also And in particular S. Cypriā seeme's to thinke that the resolution of faith was to be made into scripture and not into Tradition though in deede he opposed not scripture to Tradition but to custome wich is a farr different thing the one relying vpon the doctrine of the Apostles the other vpon the authoritie of priuat Doctors And supposing he was mistaken it were no more thē what wee now see to consiste with the vnitie of the Church There is one obiection and but only one of moment and t' is that S. Augustin and Innocentius with their Councells held that the communion of Children Was necessarie for their saluatiō and their words seeme to be apparent But who looketh into other passages of the same Authors will finde that their words are metaphoricall and that their meaning is that the effect of sacramentall Communion to witt an incorporation into Christ's misticall bodie which is done by Baptisme is of necessitie for Children's saluation I remember not at this present anie other obiection of monent which may not be easily solued out of these principles Nephew I will suggest you one or two if you please The one of Communion vnder both kindes wherein our Aduersaries saie we leaue a knowne and practised tradition for manie ages The other concerning the bookes of scripture where they saie we accept of a new scripture or rule of faith without tradition Vncle. I did thinke cosen you could answere these your selfe For the first there is two parts of it The one that the B. Sacrament was giuen vnder both kindes ordinarily the other that some times it was giuen in one kynd only And Catholikes being in possessiō of both parts by tradition those that will proue that Catholikes goe against Tradition must proue that it was neuer administred vnder one kinde only which our Aduersaries nether goe about nor cā performe but ply only that part which is granted them to witt that ordinarily it was administred vnder both kindes For the second t' is not sufficient to shew that some haue doubted of this or that part of the Canon vnlesse they can proue that those who did not doubt were not a sufficient partie to make a Tradition frō the Apostles time And so you see it fall's into the question we mentioned before that some fathers or Doctors being of a contrarie minde breake not the force of tradition Nephew I am loath to leaue you vncle because me thinke's I am not sufficiently armed to answere all obiections And yet what soeuer I call to minde falle's into some of these conditions you require Vncle. Let me see how skillfull you are I will try how you can answere me to §. 14 The examples of Tradition which seeme to haue failed FIrst therefore betwixt Adā's being cast out of Paradise and the Deluge there are accoūted about two thousand yeares which according to the long liues men enioyed at that time made not fully three descēts and yet in Noy's time the forgetting of God's law was so great that a generall floud was necessarie for the clēsing of the world Sem was Noy's sonne and before his death both the Diuisions of Nations happened because of their pride against God And as most Historians thinke the selecting of Abram's familie into God's seruice the rest of the world hauing abādoned it Likewise what is become of all antien Religions the most part of them deliuered by Tradition they are all gone and rooted out So that plaine experience is against those fine discourses you approued so higly What answere would you make to this Nephew Marry I would deny it to be true I meane I would saie that God's law was not forgotten but neglected before the floud And the like at the building of Babell And for Abraham's time we know that Abimelech and Pharao and Melchisedech and others as Iob when soeuer he liued obserued God's law As for heathen Religions they were written in bookes for anie thing I know and therefore preiudice tradition no more then a written law and consequently belong not to this cōtrouersie And thus I thinke I should quitte my self wel enough Vncle. Soone enough at least but let vs see if it be with as good speede as much haste For suppose they should reply that the neglect of God's law must of necessitie breede obliuion and therefore that ether God's law was forgottē or shortly would haue beene if the punishement of the Deluge had not preuēted it And for the men you cite of Abraham's time they were but few and though in that time God's law had yet some litle force looke but into Mose's time and you shall see all ouerrūne with Idolatrie For Heathen Religions t' is said of the Druides that their Ceremonies were not written but deliuered by memorie in verse from the Elder to the yonger and so conserued And the Histories of the welch ād Irish seeme to haue beene conserued in the like manner by the Bardes which how full of fables they were euerie man knowe's So that these things seeme sufficient to discredit Tradition Nephew I must intreat your helping hand to fasten me vpō this shaking flore otherwise I perceiue I am to weake to stand of my self Vncle. T' is not the flore you stand vpon but the want of confidence which make's you so vnsteadfast For tell me I pray if you remember whereon rely's