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A06347 An excellent and plaine discourse of the church, whereby the godlie may knowe and discerne the true Church, from the Romish Church, and all other false and counterfet churches, as well for matters of doctrine, as discipline, &c. Written in Frenche by M. Bartrand de Loque, a godlie minister of Dolphenine. And faithfully translated into English, by M.T.W. Seene and allowed; Traité de l'eglise. English Loque, Bertrand de.; T. W. (Thomas Wilcox), 1549?-1608. 1582 (1582) STC 16813; ESTC S103377 172,896 422

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9.10 Isaiah 8. ver 10.11.13.16 Isaiah 26. ver 10.11 Isaiah 28. ver 9.12.13 Isaiah 30. ver 9.15 Isaiah 42. ver 19.20 Isaiah 48. ver 4. Isaiah 65. ver 11. Ieremiah 2. Ieremi ver 24.29 vnto the 33. ver Ieremiah 5. ver 3. vnto the 8. ver and ver 20. of the same chap. vnto ver 25. Ieremiah 6. ver 10. in euerie verse almost vnto the ende of the Chapter Ieremiah 7. ver 24. vnto the 28. ver Ieremiah 8. ver 4. vnto ver 8. Ieremiah 17. ver 1.23 Ieremiah 10. ver 11.15 Ieremiah 25. ver 4.8 Ieremiah 29. ver 17.20 Ieremiah 35. ver 13.16 Ieremiah 43. ver 2. Ieremiah 44. ver 7.10.11.16.20 Ezechiel 2. Ezechi ver 3. vnto the end of the chapter Ezechiel 3. ver 5.10.26.27 Ezechiel 4. ver 3. Hosea Ezechiel 12. ver 2. Hosea 4. througout the whole Chapter Hosea 5. ver 4. Amos 4. Amos. Zephaniah Zachariah Prouerbs Matthew ver 6. vnto the end of the Chapter Zephaniah 3. ver 5. Zechariah 7. ver 11. vnto the end Prouerbs 1. ve 24. vnto the end Matth 11. ver 16.17.21 and so vnto the 25. ver Matth. 12. ver 41.42 Mat. 23. ver 37. Touching the Pastors specially and particularly see Isaiah 56. ver 10.11 Ieremiah 6. ver 13. Ieremiah 14. ver 14. Ieremiah 23. ver 1.2 c. Ezechiel 22. ver 25.26.28 Ezechiel 34. ver 23.4 c. Hosea 9. ver 8. 1. Kings 22. ver 6. Iohn 7. ver 47. CHAP. XIII Whether the Church bee aboue the holy scripture that is to say whether the holy scripture depend of the iudgement and authority of the Church THE Church indeede hath a very great authoritie among men in so much as it behoueth vs to heare the same if we will not be accounted rebels against God Yet notwithstanding seeing she is the wife and scholler of Iesus Christe she ought alwaies to be subiect vnto him as vnto her husbād head and teacher And therefore this is an article which wee must hold inuiolable and without breach to wit that the church ought to depend and hang on Christe and his worde and to haue her authoritie from the same worde and not on the other side that the worde of Christe shoulde depende and haue the credite and authoritie thereof from the Church Notwithstanding many are founde whiche holde altogether the contrarie setting as we say the cart before the horses and plowe or waine before the oxen and vtterly ouerthrowing all order For they suppose that the holy scripture hath no more certaintie authoritie than it pleaseth the Church that by her allowāce and consent it shall haue And these bee the Romishe Catholikes who speake of the Church after this manner giuing it authoritie ouer and aboue the worde of God to make men to beleeue that whatsoeur it decreeth determineth and concludeth wee must hold her iudgement sentence and resolution as a certaine oracle comming frō heauen and to be short as an article of our beliefe And behold their reasons for this The first reason The Churche by her iudgement hath brought to passe that the holy Scripture hath beene acknowledged for the true worde of God and hath distinguished separated and sundered it from all other writinges what so euer whiche men haue published brought into the world For who is it that in the beginning hath assured vs that the holy scripture is the word of God but the Church alone And who is it that euen to this day can certifie and assure vs that the same word of God is come safe sound and whole euen vnto our age but onely the same Church Wherefore it followeth that the authoritie and certaintie of the holie scripture dependeth vpon the authoritie and iudgemente of the Church I aunswere two things or two manner of wayes First that this is a most wicked opinion to say that without the Churche the worde of God could not haue a sufficient witnesse to commend and set forth the authoritie and credite thereof vnto vs. Let vs heare what Saint Augustine saith hereof The authoritie of the truth saith hee is fruitefull and plentifull Augu. de assumpt Virg. Mart. cap. 1. and if she be diligently examined men shall finde that of her selfe shee maketh her selfe to bee sufficiently knowne Wherefore Alfonsus de Castro hath sometimes saide Alfonsus de Cast li. 1. ca. 8. cont haereses seeing that the holie scripture is come foorth from GOD it hath of it selfe alreadie deserued that wee shoulde giue trust vnto it and beleeue it And when the Church publisheth this that it is giuen by God shee doth wholie euen as a witnesse which beareth witnesse to some thing So that the truth of the scriptures is certaine not because of the witnes but by reason of it selfe and the credite it hath and not because the Church receiueth it and publisheth it but because that God hath giuen it and made the same manifest vnto vs. Besides is this a small matter that wee haue the testimonie of the holye spirite dwelling in our heartes It is said that it is his peculiar office to guide and lead vs into all truth Iohn 16.13 1. Ioh. 2.27 and to teach vs all things Wherevpon it followeth that he teacheth vs this truth that the holy scripture is of God and from him It is saide moreouer that we haue receiued the spirite of God 1. Cor. 2.12 that we might knowe the thinges that are giuen to vs of God Also 1. Cor. 2.14 that the thinges of the spirite of God are spirituallie discerned that is to say by the efficacie mouing and woorking of the holy spirite Wherefore it followeth that the holy spirite teacheth vs and maketh vs to discerne betweene these bookes which wee ought to receiue without gainesaying and the other which we ought to reiect and refuse Some perhaps will say that this article or point is daungerous because that heretikes oftentimes bragge that they haue the spirit of God which they haue not indeed and wee knowe howe they haue alwayes indeuoured to make their doctrines of authoritie and credite through their inwarde reuelations whiche they haue imagined to proceede from the holy Ghost But we can easily aunswere this to wit that in this matter wee can easily auoide all danger if wee vse and followe the remedies whiche S. Iohn doth furnish vs withall when he saith that we ought not to beleeue euery spirite 1 Ioh. 4. 1. but to trie and proue the spirites whether they are of God or no. And what shall be the meane and way of this triall and examination euen the worde of God as wee see that therby the men of Berea Act. 17.11 did proue S. Paule his spirit and doctrine And to this meane doth Chrysostome send vs when hee saith thus Many boast of the spirite Chrysost de sanct adorand spirit but they which bring any thing of their owne doe falsly pretende the same As Christ witnessed that he spake not of him selfe because that his doctrine
was taken out of the lawe and prophetes in like manner if any vnder the title and name of the spirite shall bring vnto vs any thing which is not contained in the Gospell let vs not beleue it For as Christ is the accomplishmente and fulfilling of the lawe and Prophetes so is the holie Ghost of the gospell But how can wee by this way or meane discerne and know the spirites that is to say whether the doctrine which they shall propound and set foorth vnto vs bee from the holy Ghoste or no After two sortes or by two meanes you shall knowe this First if it tend to this end to exalt establish and set vp the glorie of God For as Iesus Christe saith Ioh. 7.18 Hee that seeketh the glorie of God is true and no vnrighteousnesse is in him Secondly if it bee conformable and agreeable Rom. 12.6 to the proportion of faith that is to say if it agree and accorde well with the heads foundations of Christian religion wherof we haue spokē more largely heretofore in the fourth Chapter The second thing that I aunswere touching the foresaide reason of the Romishe Catholikes is that the consequence thereof is not necessarie neither well grounded when they saye that the Churche yeeldeth testimonie to the worde of God and doth commend the same vnto vs that therefore the certaintie and authoritie of the worde of God dependeth vpon the authority and iudgement of the Church For as wee haue but a little while agoe alleadged out of Alfonsus de Castro The word of God is certaine not by reason of the Church whiche beareth witnesse thereof but because of it selfe and his owne credite The Apostles yelded testimonie and bare witnesse of Iesus Christe Iohn 15.17 Acts. 1.8 And who is hee that will therefore say that Iesus Christe his authoritie doth depende of the authoritie and iudgement of the Apostles The Goldsmith trieth the golde and putteth a difference betweene that which is good and pure and that which is naughtie mettall But doth hee therefore by his tryall and proofe make that the golde is either good or euill A Parliament receiueth some edict or lawe which commeth from the King that it may bee published and proclaimed Inquirie is diligently made whether it come from the King or no Afterwardes all knowe that it commeth from the King what doth the Parliament then It is true that it alloweth the edict that it acknowledgeth the same that it beareth witnesse to it and commendeth and setteth out the same yea and if neede bee interpreteth it according to the Kings intent and meaning But doth the parliament for all this cause it or make it to bee the kings lawe Doth it giue authoritie to it Hath it any authoritie to chaunge any thing in it or to adde any thing to it or to clippe or take any thing what so euer away from it It is certaine no. Euen so standeth the case with the Church For although it be an excellent testimonie to the worde of God yet it cannot at any hande giue it authoritie as to say that the certaintie of the worde of God hangeth vpon the authoritie and iudgement of the Churche For when the Church acknowledgeth and alloweth the worde of God and doth put a difference betweene it the doctrines and inuētions of men she doth no other thing but heare the voyce of her pastor discerneth knoweth it frō the voice of a strāger Ioh. 10.5 Now there is great difference betwene discerning the Pastors voice from a strangers and adding authoritie and credite thereto bringing to passe and that according to truth that it should be such or such that is either true or false The second reason is The Church is more auncient than the Scriptures For in the time of Adam Abell Seth Noah Abraham Isaac Iaacob there was no scripture For Moses was the first penman or writer of matters concerning religion and yet notwithstāding there was a church Wherfore it followeth that the authoritie of the Church is aboue the authoritie of the holy scripture First and formost I aunswere that the consequence of this argument is none at al. For graunt it that one thing be more ancient and old than another yet it followeth not for all that that it should be of greater authoritie and credite otherwise we must inferre that Moses hath more authoritie than Iesus Christe and the lawe more than the Gospel Secondly as touching the antecedent or former proposition I say that it is sophisticall captious and full of deceit For albeit that in these first times of the worlde there was no scripture which the father 's vsed yet for all that the worde of God ceased not to bee because it was written and ingrauen in the fathers heartes and moreouer founded verie cleerly in the Churche whiche worde was in good time brought and committed to writing first by Moses and afterwards by others and thereupon called the holie scripture wherefore seeing that the holy scripture and Gods worde is nothing but one and the selfe same thing it followeth very well that if our first fathers haue had the word of God they haue had also in substance the holy scriptures Aug. cont epist fundamen cap. 5. The third reason S. Augustine hath said I woulde not beleeue the Gospell if the authoritie of the Catholike Church did not mooue mee thereto Wherefore it is certaine that the Gospell taketh his authoritie from the Church I answere that the consequence is starke naught for that which S. Augustin speaketh to one purpose or in one respect is applied to another end This holy doctor speaketh so as hauing regarde to that hee was then when he tooke the part of the Manichees and as it were disputing against them Now the Manichees would that the Epistles of Manicheus their authour which they called Fundamental containing in it all their false opinions should be of like and equall authoritie with the Apostles epistles Beside they allowed one part of the Gospel disallowed an other that not by the aduise and iudgement of the Church but of their owne proper and particular authoritie S. Augustine hauing taken in hand to confute the saide Epistle in the beginning speaketh thus The Epistle beginneth after this manner Manicheus the Apostle of Iesus Christe by the prouidence and appointment of God the Father I aske who is this Manicheus you wil answere the Apostle of Iesus christs I beleeue it not What wilt thou say thereto Perhaps thou wilt bring foorth the Gospel and thereby thou wilt lift vp and establish the person of Manicheus But what if thou haddest to doe and deale with a man who doth not yet beleeue the Gospel what wouldest thou do whē hee should say vnto thee I beleeue not the Gospell For as touching my selfe I would not beleeue the Gospel if the authoritie of the Catholike Church did not moue me thereto Beholde Saint Augustines wordes by which it is altogether
their Gods The Iewes haue the barke or huske of the lawe and their owne Thalmude The Turkes haue the Alcoran of their Mahumet and the heretikes also boast them selues of the doctrin of the Gospell and yet all these are false signes or markes But the true churche hath for her first and principall marke the woorde of GOD purely preached to the whiche the churche consenteth conformeth her self as wee prooue it plainely by these places of Scripture Iesus Christ saith My sheepe heare my voyce Ioh. 10.27 and I knowe them and they follow mee And Saint Paule in his Epistle to the Ephesians you are saith he builded vppon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophetes Eph. 2.20 Iesus Christe himselfe beeing the chiefe corner stone And indeede if this be true as of necessitie it must needes bee that by the scriptures wee are brought to the knowledge of Christ as Christ him selfe affirmeth Search the Scriptures diligently for they are they which beare witnesse of mee Ioh. 5.39 ought wee not then by the same Scriptures to be guided and lead to the knowledge of the true and right Church This matter the auncient fathers respected when they taught that the true church ought to shewe and declare it selfe by the holy scriptures Contra Pitilia Cap. 2. as Saint Augustine saying There is great disputation betweene vs and the Donatistes to knowe where the Church is What is then that wee haue to doe herein Shal we search it out in our owne wordes or rather in the wordes of our Lord Iesus Christe the heade thereof verily we ought rather to seeke for it in the wordes of him that is trueth and knoweth very well his owne bodie 2. Tim. 2.19 For the Lord knoweth them that be his And againe I will not shew or declare the Church by the doctrine of men but by the worde of God Cont. Pitili cap. 3. Aug. epist 166. Also by the scriptures saith he we haue learned Christ by the scriptures likewise wee haue learned to know the Church Wee haue these scriptures common amongest vs wherefore then doe wee not retaine and holde in them both Christ and his Church And Chrysostome saith Supr Matth. exposit 2. Hom. 49. cap. 24. Lib. 2. de Iaco. cap. 7. Hee that will know whiche is the true Churche of Christ by what meane can he knowe it in suche and so great a confusion of outwarde shewe if it be not onely by the Scriptures Saint Ambrose saith also The true and Catholike Churche is there where GOD himselfe appeareth and speaketh to his seruantes by his owne worde The other marke of the Churche is the lawfull administration of sacraments Cont. Faustū Manich. lib. 9. cap. 11. Saint Augustine hath sometime sayde that men can not vnite or knit themselues together in any religion whatsoeuer bee it true or false but by the meanes of some sacramentes or visible signes So the Gentiles had their sacraments and sacrifices The Iewes had Circumcision and some other outward signes of their religion But the true Church hath for the second of her markes her owne sacraments instituted by Iesus Christe the head thereof that is to say baptisme and the holye supper And therevnto must bee referred that which Saint Augustine sayth Ad inquisit Ianuar. cap. 1 The Lorde hath vnited or knit together the newe people that is the people vnder the newe Testament by the sacramentes which are few in number easie in obseruation and very great in signification to wit by baptisme consecrated or administred in the name of the blessed Trinitie and by the communicating or partaking of his body and of his bloud Besides Saint Paule doeth in like sorte rightly teach vs this 1. Cor. 12.13 when hee saith first of baptisme that we are all baptised by one spirit into one body and afterward of the Supper we that are many 1. Cor. 10.17 are one breade and one body because we al are partakers of one and the selfe same breade meaning thereby that these two sacramentes are in suche sorte the two common signes of the Church that by the same we are visibly gathered together into the house of God that we may there be accounted in the number of his housholde seruants and contained in the vnitie of the body of the Church withall the faithfull and by consequent drawne taken and separated from all other people prophane nations CHAP. IIII. Whether these true markes of the Church are to be found amongest the Romish Catholiks THese then are the two certain infallible marks of the true church by which men must examine all assemblies that pretend the Name and Title of the Churche leaste otherwise they be seduced and deceiued Wherefore if a man will know whether the true Church be among the Romish Catholikes or no we neede not haue recourse to any other proofe or touchstone then this onely But it shall behooue vs to holde and to keepe in memorie one foundation or sure ground to wit that these two markes must alwayes be retained and kept in their puritie without being any manner of waye falsified or corrupted that is to say that the preaching of the doctrine must be pure and the administration of the sacramentes sound and lawfull For indeede in outward shewe they would make men beleeue that these two markes are to be found amongest the Romish Catholikes but when all shall be rightly and duely examined wee shall finde that the true Churche is not for all that on their side For as concerning the worde it is not preached by them rightly or purely but as S. Hilarie sayth they make a sense vppon the scriptures and take it not out of the scripture and make it as it were a leaden rule which men commonly call Regula Lesbia applying it to their owne intentes and purposes and not submitting their owne purposes to it Touching this matter it is needefull for vs to knowe that all exposition of holy scripture must bee referred to two principall heads or ends that is to say that it tend to the glory of God and that it bee conformable or agreable to the analogy proportion of faith For touching the first Iesus Christ sayth He that seeketh the glory of God Iohn 7.18 is true Now without doubt when the Romish Catholikes extol mans free will ascribe vnto man some merit for his works they snatch and as it were by violence pull away frō God some part of the glory which is due vnto him and so by consequent whē they serue them selues with certain peeces of the scriptures to proue that whiche they pretend they can not therein excuse them selues but that they corrupt and falsifie the scriptures declaring them selues hereby right heretikes indeede For as S. Ierome saith Who so euer expoundeth the scripture otherwise then the sense meaning of the holy Ghost requireth In epist ad Galat. although hee haue not withdrawne or separated himself from the
might be glorified Isaiah 61.3 Isai 61.3 Moreouer this Church notwithstanding the sharpe and harde persecutions which it hath suffered hath not yet ceassed alwayes to bee as it is at this present and shall be vnto the worldes ende For as Dauid sayth The Lorde hath chosen Sion that is to say Psal 132.13 c. the Church and hath desired it for his seat ●it hath been saith he my rest for euer Iesus Christe also hath promised his disciples Mat. 28.20 to bee with them alwayes euen vnto the ende of the worlde But chiefly Saint Paule hath declared and sette out the perpetuitie and continuaunce of the Church when hee assureth vs Ephes 3.21 that GOD shall be glorified in the Church through Iesus Christ throughout all generations for euer and euer They then are ouermuch past shame whiche limitte the continuance of the Churche to a certayne tyme Aug. de ciui tat Dei lib. 18. ca. 54 as those of whome Saint Augustine speaketh who durst boldely affirme that the christian religion should not last but 365. yeares They likewise doe abuse and deceiue themselues which thinke that by the assaultes which they giue vnto the Church they are able to beate it downe consume it wholy take it away out of the worlde For is it possible that God should be without a Church Psal 10. 1 c. hath not he himselfe promised that his sonne shall raigne and beare rule for euer ouer all his enimies Verily the Church which is the spouse or wife of Christ is become or made so mightie and stronge through her husbande that being euen one bodie with him she is more forcible and mightie in her weakenesse then al the world in his pride and hautines But as we haue alreadie saide once heretofore we will hereafter speake more amplie and largely of the Churches force and power in persecutions To bee shorte amongest so manye and so diuerse chaunges of the kingdomes of this worlde God alwayes preserueth his Churche and bringeth to passe that nothing in all the worlde is durable and perpetuall but shee not that shee is alwayes florishing or hath a continuance which followeth all by one threede that is commeth altogether but because that God not minding that his name should be put out in the worlde doeth alwayes in his Churche raise vp some of whome hee is sincerely and purely serued Nowe when the question is to discerne the true Church from the false some there are that stay themselues vpō the multitude and great number But they are very farre from their right reckoning or account For GOD measureth not his Church by the number He loueth his faithfull people and keepeth himselfe in the middest of them Mat. 18.20 although they be a verie small number on the other side he hateth those that doe dispise it and disdayneth them though the number of them be neuer so great And indeede on the side of the multitude and great number the false and bastardly Church is rather founde than the true and lawfull one And that it is so let vs first mark the places of scripture which withdrawe vs from the multitude and teach vs to stay cleaue to the little flocke Thou shalt not followe a multitude to doe euill Exod. 23.2 Mat. 7.13.14 neither agree in a controuersie to decline after many and to ouerthrowe the trueth Enter in at the straite Gate for it is the wide gate and broad way which leadeth to destruction many therebe which go in thereat because the gate is strait and the way narrowe that leadeth vnto life and fewe there bee that finde it Feare not little flocke Luke 12.32 for it is your fathers pleasure to giue you a kingdome Wee see by these places that the greatest numbr is not alwayes the best neyther the soundest and that the Churche of God is founde rather amongest the small number then among the multitude Secondly let vs note the reasons following which are taken from examples that we finde in the scripture touching this verye matter On which side was the Church Gene. 7.1 Heb. 11.7 when Noah alone with his litle familie whiche was not in all but eight persons followed the true religion God approuing him by his faith condemning all the rest of the worlde On which side was the Churche 1 Kin. 19 10 when Elijah saide O Lord the children of Israel haue forsaken they couenant they haue destroyed thine Altars and slayne thy prophets with the sworde and I am left altogether alone and yet they seeke my soule to take it away On which side was the Church when the foure hundred prophetes deceiued Ahab 1. Kin. 22.8 and Michaiah being alone and contemned did yet notwithstanding resist thē and speake the truth On which side was the Church when Ieremiah was sent from God to say In that day the heart of the king shall perishe Iere. 4.9 and the heart of Princes and of the Priestes shall bee astonished and the Prophetes shall wonder and that therefore the Prophetes resisted him Iere 10.18 layed crimes vnto his charge and imagined mischiefe against him Math. 26.3 On which side was the Church when the chiefe Priestes and scribes and Elders of the people assembled themselues together into the Hall of the high Priest named Caiaphas and helde a Councell how they might take Iesus Christ by subtiltie put him to death Certainly by these examples it is plainely prooued that if it were sufficient to alledge the multitude the greatest number for to vnderproppe and vpholde a Churche the false and bastardly Churche shoulde euer preuaile in the matter and get the better in that respecte because that the number which cleaueth to it and followeth and maintayneth it is alwayes the greatest August in Psal 128. Let vs adde here a sentence of Saint Augustine From the time sayth hee that the Saintes haue begun to be the Church hath beene and is on the earth Somtimes it was in Abel alone who was slaine by his wicked brother Cain Sometime it was in Henoch alone who was reiected of the vngodlie Sometimes it was in the onely house of Noah and he bare with or suffered all them that perished in the floude and the Arke swimming vppon the floudes was saued and set vppon the drie land Sometime in one onely Abraham of whome we knowe thus much that hee suffered many thinges by the wicked Sometimes in Lott alone and in his onely house in the middest of the Sodomites whose iniquities and vngodlinesse he indured and suffered so long till God drewe him as it were by violence from among them Sometimes in the onely Israelites tormented by Pharaoh and the Egyptians By these wordes that appeareth verie well to be true and right which I haue sayd to wit that the Church ought not to be iudged or acknowledged by the great number The faythfull then shoulde not at this daye bee offended though they bee