say many of the ministers bee such I say they bee not for they set out the word Sacraments though not by their owne learning But let it be graunted that some of them bee blinde guides yet the people neede not perish for there bee others that watch ouer them besides the ministers the Byshops and Archdeacons these are not blinde but haue their sight better then the Puritans O but these can not suffice with al their learning and Godlinesse to guid the people and to keepe them in good order but forsooth euery congregation must haue one to preach vnto them this were good but where will yee haue them if ye can finde men wher are the liuings that shall maintaine them will yee haue Preachers to liue with tenne pounde or twentie pounde a yeare surelie yee are verie Doltes and woulde haue ye knowe not what I woulde you coulde see your owne follie which verie Children doe sée that yee mighte bee ashamed the people are well if yee coulde let them alone and are come from Poperie But if they bee not Puritans by and by yee enter into iudgement against them and condemne them to bee Athiests and wicked men yea to bee reprobates and for this cause yee crie out the people perish mens soules are famished and murthered for lacke of preachers are not the people which you saie perish and go to destruction Christians do they not at their ende call vpon God confesse their sinnes and hope to be pardoned by the death and bloudshedding of Christe howe then dare you bee so wicked and presumptuous as to iudge of them that they be damned Will you enter into Gods secretes I thinke better of such honest poore men which are dutifull subiectes and liue quietlie thogh they haue no teaching then of such as you the state of our church would be better if all were such because there should be more quietnes then there is now Orthodoxos If euer there were anie time in which the words of our sauiour Christe were verified when he saith If it coulde be possible the elect should be deceiued it is nowe there be such goodlie shewes and colours made and set vpon matters to holde the people contented in their ignoraunce for what is proclaymed nowe and vnder what doe those that destroie the Churche shrowde them selues but the Gospell the peace of the Church obedience learning grauitie and Godlinesse All these are moste excellente thinges and therefore when they come but for a cloake as they doe vnto many which haue not the vse and benefit of them the daunger is the greater Yee say the people neede not famish the gospel is so plentifully set foorth what preached no that is but heere and there How then that which is as good as preaching the scriptures are read in their owne tongue with homilies and prayers as good as any can be made There be also many good bookes yea syr but what sayth the holy Apostle 1. Cor. 1. ver 21. he saith It is the pleasure of God to saue those which beleeue by foolish preaching Wil ye not giue the Lord leaue to saue that way which it pleaseth him or will ye prescribe him an other that shal be a wiser way Faith commeth by hearing and how shall they heare without a Preacher Rom 10. the Priestes Lippes must keepe knowledge and they must seeke the Law at his mouth for he is the messenger of the Lord of Hostes Mala. 2. vers 6. Those thinges which thou haste heard of me among many witnesses sayth the Apostle vnto Timothy the same commit vnto faithfull men which may bee meete to teach others 2. Tim. 2. vers 2. You sée then Gods pleasure is to worke fayth and to saue by preaching his ordinaunce and appointment is that skilfull wise and godly pastors shall féede his flock they must instruct and teach thē in the misteries of the gospel and lay open vnto them all the counsels of God They must preache the worde and be instant in season and out of season they must conuince reprooue exhort with all long suffering and doctrine 2. Timo. 4. vers 2. They must watch ouer the soules of men as those that shall giue account vnto God for them Heb. 13. vers 17. I pray yee tell mee can the dumbe Idoles hirelings and vngodly men do this God must néeds take men to heauen that way which you deuise although it be flat against his owne ordinaunce God hath promised to giue his Spirite with the true ministerie which hee sendeth to publish remission of sinnes in his name by which spirite he conuerteth mens soules will ye therefore binde him to doe the same to a false ministerie are yee not ashamed thus to mocke with GOD and to abuse his people the reproche and shame of this will neuer bee done awaie with anie Sacrifice or burnt offering Yee say we condemne reading and some of yee are not ashamed with Brasen faces to affirme it euen oute of the Pulpit We exhort and stirre vp the people vnto the diligent reading of the Scriptures and where shall a man finde so manie Bybles and testamentes in the handes of the common sorte as where those Puritan Preachers as you tearme them haue anie while continued A man would thinck considering howe manifest a lye it is that the Diuel himselfe woulde bee ashamed to vtter it as I haue hearde some of yee because the ministers set foorth the worde and Sacramentes though it bee not by their owne learning you saie they bee no blinde guides nor hirelings what manner of setting out is that when the people do not receiue instruction they doe as much as lieth in them prophane the worde and Sacramentes But what though there were blinde guids and hirelinges yet the people are well ynough they depende vppon the bishops and Archdeacons which can see better then Puritans These I trowe can suffice to keepe the people in order I pray yee what can they see or what do they see to leade the people to Heauen or to builde them vp in good order in the fayth Noe no they can see that they shal be kept in blindnesse as they are but what can they doe vnto those whome they neuer saw nor knew doth there goe such vertue out of a Byshoppe or an Archdeacon that it can spreade it selfe ouer all the Country euen to saue their soules that neyther heare nor see them shall the blinde bee ledde by those that neuer come nigh them or by those that are presente and take them by the hand for shame holde youre peace Yee confesse it were good that the people were taught euery where but where will yee haue so many teachers and if there be men ye demaund where ther wil be liuinges for them To the first I aunswere that the want of Godlie and diligent preachers is to bee imputed to the Bishops for euen as if they had conspired the death of the Church they haue laboured to suppresse and diminish them To
other men may iudge but in my iudgement it is a very prophane and a very wicked saying Is there any God but one any faith but one any Church but one Is not the whole Churche in all places in the worlde Gods familie Hath he not giuen one booke of the holy sacred scriptures to teache and gouerne the same euery part therof Were not those mē principall Instruments of the Lord to expounde and open the mysteries of God vnto his church did they not teach declare the counsels of God onely out of his word Is our church then the Church of Christe and hath their doctrine nothing to do with it Philodoxos I know right well that their doctrine which they teach out of Gods word which is the doctrine of faith doth belong indifferently to the whole Church Because as you say there is but one Church and one faith But in some externall matters one Church may differ from an other And in that respect euery Church is not tied to the outwarde forme of the Church at Geneua in euery particular There be circumstaunces of persons times and places which maye make some variaunce Orthodoxos One Church maye differ from an other in some externall matter let that be graunted as I know not who doth deny it Is that a sufficient cause for men to saye what hath maister Caluine or maister Beza or others to doe with our Church Haue not the excellent seruaunts of God taught that point also by the Scriptures which you speak off that churches may vary in some externall matters How then can it be saide that our Church hath nothing to doe with their doctrine I doe not speake as though we were to depende vppon men further then they prooue their doctrine by the holy Scriptures But when God hath raised vp speciall instrumentes and made them lightes to his people it muste needes proceede from a vile minde to saye what haue they to doe with our Church Such mens fingers are to be looked vnto as those which are not to bee put in truste with the Spouse of Christ For this is out of all doubt that as those other are manifested vnto the worlde to be rare and speciall seruauntes of God for the seruice of his sonne and saluatiō of his people so these by demanding so disdainfully what they haue to do with our Church giue manifest cause of suspicion that they be none of Gods houshold For either they must prooue that those excellent men did not deale faithfully in Gods matters which they shall neuer be able to doe or else confesse themselues to be vntrusty Who is so foolish but that he can sée whē such as with the mighty power of Gods spirit haue spread the light of the Gospell and thrown downe the Kingdome of Antichrist are reiected or little set by that there is no faithful mind especially when it is by those which them selues doe hurt and no good to the furtheraunce of mens saluation Philochrematos Gentleman by your patience maye it please you to let me aunswere not that I thinke you vnable to confute such friuolous speech but because I am pricked and can holde no longer I woulde faine knowe who they are whome you meane which do hurt no good in our Church If you meane the cheefe of the cleargy God be thanked your slanderous tongue is not able to discredite them they are well knowne to be graue wise learned and Godly and therefore of all others do the most good and the least hurt in the Church If yee meane the Puritans or Precisians all wise men wil agrée with you for in déede it can not be shewed that they do any good but I am able to prooue that they doe much hurt for they be Scismatikes and make diuision in the Church a thing much to be abhorred of al godly mindes they are the cause that there be so many Papistes for what maketh them to be offended and to refuse to come to the Churche but this that we do not agrée among our selues but these are not those whom you meane Orthodoxos I sée you take it in great snuffe that I saide there are which doe hurte and no good in the Church You woulde knowe whome I meane But it must needes bee meant as you take it eyther of the cheefe of the Cleargie or else of those whome you tearme Puritans and Precisians For the first yee say they bee well knowne to bee graue wise learned and Godly I suppose by the chiefe of the Cleargie you meane Bishops Deanes and Archdeacons and Bishops Chaplaynes And so you come in the number your selfe beeing a Bishops Chaplaine I doe suppose that the greatest part of these are graue and learned and it were a verye lamentable thing that none of them should be Godly I doe verilye suppose that among these there be some which are not so drowned with couetousnesse and ambition but that they haue their speciall care for the aduauncement of Gods Gospell and the saluation of mens soules But will yee therefore cléere and iustifie all But as for the Puritanes and Precisians yee say they do no good and you can prooue they doe much hurt You doe also shew wherein they be Scismatikes and make diuision in the Church They giue offence to the Papistes No doubte these bee abominable vices and those that be giltie of them the woe and cursse of God doth hange ouer their heades But your bare affirmation maye not carrye away the matter you muste prooue those men to bee such whome you call Puritans Philochrematos It is a sore matter which yee put me vnto I praye yee what neede is there of anye further proofe when the thing is euident to all the worlde Who doth not see that there is a Scisme in our Church both among ministers and people Who doth not see who are the cause of it When a Church is established and there doth arise contention therein are those the Scismatikes which defende the state and would haue it quiet or those which rayse vp vnquietnesse Do the chiefe Prelates make the Scisme in our Church or the Puritanes It is well knowne that they labour to haue it in peace but these other are the cause of vnquietnesse Orthodoxos You make verye light of the matter as a thing so euident that there needeth no proofe And to make the euidencie appeare yée take this for your grounde that where a Church is established those which defend the state thereof to hold it in quiet canne not bee Scismatikes On the contrarye parte those which make any vnquietnesse to the state thereof can not but be Scismatikes If yee will haue no further consideration but so then surely maister Luther maister Caluine and others are iustly charged by the Papistes to be Scismatikes For there was a state established the Pope his Prelates were desirous to hold it in quiet The other part yee knowe did disquiet it Yet neuerthelesse euerie one which hath anie true
of the scribes pharisees Did not the apostles paint out wicked teachers in their colours It is the part of Gods seruants to rebuke vngodlines in whō soeuer they finde it The calling of the ministery is an high calling for they are in Christes stead to exercise that office that he him self did whē he liued vpō earth They are put in trust with the souls of men which are the price of his bloud but yet it doth not followe the for this calling sake their vices are to be couered It is a vile speech For the more excellent and prescious the calling is the lesse are they to be borne withall because they dishonor and deface the same Who will esteeme the ministerie of the Gospell to be so high and excellent an office or to be of anie waight when he shall see the verie riffraff of the people worse then Ieroboams Priestes taken in and admitted as meete men Are such fit to succeed the Lord Iesus and to haue the charge of soules How fearefull shall their reckoning be before the high Iudge that haue put them in and maintaine them Doe they not dishonour the Sonne of God and neuer repent for it Are not their harts hardened and blinded in this beastly sinne Yee saye moreouer that it is vncharitable dealing to raile vppon them and to call them dumb dogges Idoll sheepheardes hierlinges and such like Was the prophet Isay vncharitable or did he raile when hee called the idle vnskilfull Priestes dumbe dogs Or when he called the couetous Priestes that sought after their owne gaine greedie Dogges Chap. 56. ver 10 Is this vnlawfull now which was lawfull then Our sauiour faith they be theeues murtherers which were before him because he is the doore Iohn 10. Al that he sendeth come in at the doore Those whom he sendeth not as in deede he sendeth none but such as are fit may well be called theeues and murtherers For they take the hier destroy the soules of men When they haue shewed repentance for these grieuous sinnes they may be esteemed as brethren and Christians They haue Wiues and children would yée haue them beg A pitiful case But I praie yee is it not a thing much more miserable that so manie thousandes of soules shoulde perishe because some may not beg Yée are euen made for this life and can see no further But why need they beg let them to their occupation if they be strong if not let them be relieued You that are so charitable and pitiful vnto the Idoll ministers which haue done so much hurt a mā wold think ye would haue a singuler care of such as haue painfully labored in the gospel that their children beg not stil ye call for loue that couereth the multitude of sins Loue doth couer sins where repentance is doth forget them but our Sauiour willeth to reprooue him that offendeth if he repent not when it is shewed to the church he must chunt him as an heathen man but you would haue the loue which should shake hands with al kind of vngodlines bear with it that which the scripture speaketh of loue doth nothing at all make for your turne séeing it is to hate a man whē one seeth him walk in sinn Leuit. 19.17 and doth let him alone and not reprooue him Philochrematos Yée say we haue shiftes in a readines We haue them not so readie as you haue your wicked and diuilishe accusations You might vse better and more seemelye spéech but that your mouth doth speake out of the aboundaunce of the heart Such as yée are such are your words You woulde make men beleeue that the Deuill him selfe coulde do little worse for the chusing of ministers Let the world iudge who haue most to do with the deuil who best serue his turne this doth bewray what spirit yee are of They be more learned wise and Godly against whome yee speak thē are meet to be iudged cōtrolled by such as you If there be so great offēce cōmitted in making ministers as you say there is yet it is not the part of inferiors to meddle to find fault with their gouernors it is a saucines in them they are not to reforme the redresse must be publike authority When ye cry out against the poore ministers calling thē dumb dogs so deal vnchristianly vnbrotherly then the prophet Isay is your defēce Can ye tell what maner of men they were whō he called dumb dogs greedy dogs ye wil follow Isay the prophet bee like him haue you his spirite Why do yee not admonish priuatly so yee shoulde doe lesse hurt shew your selues more charitable Is not the calling brought into contempt when the ministers are openly defaced Are not mens infirmities therefore rather to be couered and spared then that should happen Yee do more hurt that way with one sermon then ye are able to do good with an hundreth For yee doe not onelye make the ministerie to bee despised but also make those to be euil thoght of which made them and bring the people into vnquietnesse For how can they tel when they see the ministers striue what to beleeue or what to follow Againe when those are little esteemed which are in countenance and honour how shal the rest of the ministerie be esteemed yea how shal the Gospel it selfe be esteemed Thus do you marre al vnder a pretence of zeale in reproouing sinne Yee are the most vnprofitable of al other in the Church and therefore the first that are to be cut off Orthodoxos If those accusations be wicked and deuilish which are against most foule and monstrous abuses for the defence of the cause of Christ then are mine wicked and deuilish But how wicked and deuilishe a thing is this that he which findeth fault with that which God doth manifestlye condemne in his worde is counted wicked and deuilish but he which is a false accuser in defence of anye corruption the same man is alowed Wo be to them that call good euill and euill good darknesse light and light darknesse Ies 5. Hath not God ordained that faithful and wise sheepeheardes shal feed his flocke and defende them from the wolfe and bring them to life euerlasting Doth not the worde of God shew that where such are wanting the flocke doth perish and goe to destruction Doe you thinke then there can be any readier way for the deuil to throw downe the Gospel or to destroy the church thē to famish mens soules By what way are men led to Hell more readily then to be left in their blindnes and in their sins Is not the readiest way vnto this to set blind guides and such as may leade the people vnto all vngodlines Can the Deuill if he did make and sende foorth ministers find worse vpon the earth then sundry are I thinke if he will haue worse he must bring them from hell The world seeth this and doth wonder The lord God open the
eyes of those which made them that they may sée and be ashamed and repent But you say if there be such offence in making ministers yet inferiours are not to meddle it is a sawcines in them it is publique authoritie that must refourme No deubt it is publique authoritie that must refourme But what then Are the ministers of Gods word when they publishe his will become sawcie Shall the great God whose messengers they are be dishonoured his church laid waste and his people destroyed because they must respect persons Doe not you know that God sendeth his seruauntes euen vnto high and low to reprooue them when they do amisse You shew your selfe to be proud and sawcie against God that yee will haue his worde giue place vnto mortall men Were not the most of the Prophetes inferiour persons and yet they reprooued openly the high Priestes when they did degenerate and spared not any of what degrée soeuer The Pope and his Bishops can chalenge no more then to doe what they luste and that without controlement of anye but them selues which affirme that the power to redresse thinges is onely in their hands We may not giue those titles vnto euill ministers that the Prophetes in the scriptures do And why Because we haue not the spirite of the Prophetes This is as deepe deuinitie as any that yee could dig out of the bottome of a Dunghill I pray yee what Spirite shal the Preachers of the Gospell be furnished with all if not with that holye Spirite of God which the Prophets spake by Is there an other holye Ghoste In deede the Prophetes had great and extraordinary giftes of the spirite to doe that which we cannot But doth it therefore follow that we may not reprooue sin as they did It is one principall part of the duetie of the Teachers where in they are to follow the steps of the Apostles and Prophets The offence is publike and open euerye where and yet men must be restrained frō speaking publikely against it But you shew diuers great hurtes that ensue by open reproouing this matter The ministry yee say is brought into contempt by this meanes and it were much better mens infirmities were couered then that should happen As though the true ministerie coulde be brought into contempt by reprouing that which is corrupt It shoulde rather bee considered that it shoulde bring them into contempt with god and all Godly men if they should not reprooue them For then they might séem to shake hands with them to alow their vngodlines not to care how this high calling be defiled by laying it vpō vile persons they might also be thought not to pity the soules of men do not you sée that if fools which are base beggerly and vnciuil and of lewd conuersation shoulde be made Iudges it woulde be the greatest disgrace to the office that might bee The hurt resteth not you shew in defacing the ministry but reacheth vnto those that made them In deed it is their discredite which made them And that is the cause why the true teachers are hunted and tossed about For if they preach against the insufficiencie of any of the ministery or against their lewde life which all see Then they post vp and carry newes My lord such and such preach against your Lordship I warrant yee those teachers shal haue as much a doe to defend them selues as to teach their people But this is that which doth marre all when those that be of honour are by any meanes brought into contempt For they doe countenaunce the Gospell and the ministry and were it not for them the Gospel should be little esteemed nor the ministers thereof Alasse is the glorye of the Gospel no greater nor the dignitie of the ministerie no more but that they must ebb and flowe with the worldly honour and glorye of some men How vnwise do yee take our Sauiour Christe to be that he layde his glory a side and tooke vppon him the shape of a Seruaunt Phil. 2.6 that he might bee a minister of the Gospell How vnskilfull was he in choosing such simple men to be his Apostles as hadde no glorye to countenaunce the matter Hee might haue come with greater pompe But he sayeth My kingdome is not of this worlde Iohn 18. verse 36. Saint Paule sayeth The weapons of our warfare are not carnall but mightye in God 2. Corinth 10. If that were a good reason which you make then were it a speciall matter that there shoulde be as great glorye and pomp in the ministerie as euer the Pope and his Cardinalles had For the same reason set them vp at the firste No no the dignitie and estimation of the ministerye doth consist in the power of Gods spirite in them 1. Corinth 2. verse 4. This spirite doth alwayes cause those ministers to be had in great reuerence in whom he speaketh although they be neuer so base in outwarde appearaunce as Paule was Contrarywise let a minister of the Gospell glister in Golde and sit so high in glory and power that his feet be aboue the heades of Emperours and Kinges yet neuerthelesse hee shall be vile and euen stincke in the nostrels of men beeing voyde of the power of the spirite which is the furniture of a right minister For God sayth I wil honour those that honour me and they that despise me shal be despised 1. Sam. 2. ver 30. And what sayth the Lord by the Prophet Malachy vnto the Priestes Chapi 2. verse 9 Doth he not tell them that because they departed out of the waye hee had made them despised and abiect vnto all the people Then yee see it is God that bringeth such as bee of great dignitie into contempt because they degenerate yee saye the people are vnquieted because they can not tell whom they maye beleeue It is a lamentable thing that they haue in these dayes beene kept in such blindnesse that they can not trie the Spirits 1. Iohn 4.1 Iohn 10. nor are not able to know the voyce of Christ or at the least can not see who walke after the worde of God and who doe not Philochrematos I graunt it is a readie way to destroye the Church where mens soules are famished Who goeth about any such matter God be thanked the worde was neuer more plentifully set foorth They need not famish for where they haue not a Preacher yet they haue the Scriptures read vnto them in their owne language they haue Prayers and Homelyes as good as anye can bee made There bee manye good Bookes they maye reade or heare them read but such as you that condemne reading are those that famish mens souls if any do Yee are vngodlie and vtter enimies to mens souls when ye wil lead them frō the Scriptures vnto your expositions as though they could profite by hearing and reading youres and not by the reading of the Byble Where ther be blinde guides and hirelings the people perish no man doth deny that you