Selected quad for the lemma: scripture_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
scripture_n	believe_v	prove_v	see_v	2,220	5	3.2053	3	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A87230	Innocency above impudency: or, The strength of righteousness exalted, above the Quakers weakness and wickedness; in a reply to a lying pamphlet, call'd Weakness above wickedness: published by J. Nayler, in answer to a book, entituled, The Quakers quaking. By which his notorious lyes are made manifest, and the truth of the said book justified: / by Jeremiah Ives.	Ives, Jeremiah, fl. 1653-1674.	1656 (1656)	Wing I1102; Thomason E886_2; ESTC R207339	35,836	59

because he mentions not one Argument brought by me at that time in favour to it but in stead thereof charges me with something that I never said Whereas if that Letter were the sum of the Conference as possibly he may make some believe why then did not he write the Arguments I brought for the proof of what I then said and his Answers to them which the Letter speaks nothing of And as touching the particulars charged in his Letter and so often repeated by him as though he wanted matter I shall first speak to the first and that is That I said a man might understand the Scriptures without the Spirit of God To this I answer and that as I then told him That though all the Mysteries of the Kingdom of God and Christ could not be understood without Gods Spirit which the Scripture saith shall lead into all truth yet much of the Scripture might be understood by men that had not the Spirit as Thou shalt not kill and Thou shalt not steal and the like and the Scribes and Priests Mat. 2.4 understood by the Scripture that Christ should be born in Bethlehem as it was written by the Prophet though they had not the Spirit and surely they understood that Scripture right for accordingly he was born in the same place This I did answer at that time though he hath left it out and yet omission of any thing that he saith is counted an evil The next thing is that I said The Faith by which a man is saved is not the gift of God To this I did answer then and so I do now That it is not so the gift of God as you imagine by your Enthusiastical dotages as That men should meet together and neither say nor do towards the work of Faith till they are immediately inspired with your quaking dotages in this sense I do still deny Faith to be Gods gift yet in the sense that all those Scriptures say Faith is the gift of God I do freely own it as my book doth declare page 37. wherein I have these words That men have nothing but what they have received especially any light or knowledge of Jesus Christ according to 1 Cor. 4.7 The next is that I said The obedience of Believers was not the gift of God To this I answer as before That we being at that time discoursing about the point of Baptism and I then asserting That God was to be obeyed in that as well as others of his Commands Thou didst answer That they must wait till obedience was given them To which I did reply That God did not give obedience to his people in the way that thou didst expect it as to sit still and do nothing till men were immediately inspired to it And in this sense I do still deny That obedience is the gift of God though I do believe and am generally known to teach that to him that hath improved his talent God will give more and that he that doth his will shall know of his Doctrine And in this sense I do believe obedience to be the gift of God according to those Scriptures by you alledged and yet I say None of those Scriptures prove your obedient actions which you so call to be Gods gift You go on and say that I said Whosoever speaks that which men understand not is a Fool and a Barbarian His 9. LYE These were not the words James but indeed when thou hadst spoke a great while to us and then at last when I made some Reply upon thy words thou didst answer That thou spakest in a language that I could not understand and so thou saidst upon the like occasion at our Meeting in Beech-lane before many witnesses as I have shewed in page 10. of my book call'd Quakers quaking Hereupon I did answer according to that of the Apostle That he that speaks in an unknown tongue is a Barbarian and if I said a Fool I think I might 〈◊〉 prove it Not but that I did then and do still believe That Christ spake many things and so did his Apostles that the world could not understand because of their hardness of heart You charge me further with saying That none was baptized with the holy Ghost but they wrought Miracles I said not so but that none were baptized with the holy Ghost but they COULD work Miracles His 10. LYE and so I do say still till thou canst prove it for not one Text by thee alledged proves the contrary You tell me that I said His 11. LYE All good was not of God This is another of thy Lyes and I leave it to thee to prove Though it may be I might say That All the good you glory in is not of God and so I say still For you are of the Generation that call good evil and evil good but otherwise I believe with all my heart that God is the Fountain of all good according to the Scriptures You go on and tell me that I said Christ was not a Minister of Circumcision And so I say still till thou canst prove it And though in thy Letter thou chargest this for an Error yet thou dost not bring one Text to prove he was a Minister of Circumcision See thy deceit Again thou chargest me with Error in thy Letter in saying The Law was not given by Christ and yet dost not give me one Text to prove that it was given by Christ for the Scripture saith The Law was given by Moses but Grace and Truth came by Jesus Christ Joh. 1.17 and yet thou hast the face to call this one of my blasphemous Doctrines Thou tell'st me in thy Letter His 12. LYE that I said The wilderness where John preached was in Jerusalem James this is like thee and thy Father for what man in his right wits ever said a Wilderness was in 〈◊〉 unless there be one at the Bull and Mouth at Aldersgate which is the likest one of any place in a City that ever I heard of He further saith His 13. LYE That I said the River Jordan was in Jerusalem This is false for I know that Text well in Mat. 3. that saith Ierusalem went OUT to be baptized of John in Jordan therefore I could not think Jordan was in Jerusalem But however it is as reasonable to think that Jordan should be in Jerusalem as it is for you to teach That Jerusalem is IN YOU You go on and tell me that I said His 14. LYE I could foretell things to come without the Spirit This thou sayest is Witchery To this I answer That this is another of thy Lyes to say that this is Witchery for the Pharisees did foretel things to come and had not the Spirit when they said Matth. 16.2 Luk. 12.54 55. They knew when it would be heat and rain before it came to pass and Christ bare them witness that this was true and the Priests Scribes by the Scriptures did know that Christ

it and saith nothing to several Texts alledged and nine Questions proposed but that I brought crooked Consequences and no plain Text c. The next work is he saith TO PROVE RESPECT OF PERSONS which are none of my words And he saith His 28. LYE I pervert that Text in Lev. 19.32 because I reade it as Beza renders it Thou shalt honour the PERSON of the old man But why is this a perversion of the Text when I have as good reason to follow his translation as any But 2. is not that which is done to the face of a man done to his person be it honour or dishonour And 3. are not these terms FACE and PERSON convertible as Isa 3.15 where it is said that The FACE of the poor was grinded was not this the person of the poor And whereas you charge me with lying in saying you deny respect due to Parents Masters Husbands Wives c. I cannot but wonder at you for I did not say so in any place of my book I say you did deny respect to persons which I prove ought to be because I am commanded to honour my Father and Mother c. I brought this to prove we ought to honour some more then others and you say I charge you with denying honour to Father and Mother c. But sure James thy Conscience is very guilty at this turn or else thou wouldst never have said because I brought those Scriptures to prove what I laid down that therefore I said you were guilty But hadst thou done fairly thou shouldst have spoke to the Scriptures and Arguments alledged and have shewed us in what sense the unjust Judge was blameable in not reverencing man and many other Texts which may be seen in page 39 40. To all which thou sayest nothing but quarrell'st about that I never said You go on and say That I Lye because I say Not one in ten shall give the same answer to a question if it be ask'd them severally and this thou sayest is a lye because thou sayest I never proved ten of you therein But James this is as true as the rest for I have proved twenty of you herein and to make it appear I will meet thee at any time and ask thee a question appertaining to the things of God and not one of ten shall give the same answer with thee the question being asked apart if they do I will be content to be call'd a Lyer but not before You say the next thing I would prove is That Christ had two Bodies But James why couldst not thou as well lay down the Proposition in my words as thine own my words are That Christ had a Body besides his Church and to the Arguments and Texts alledged thou sayest nothing but tell'st us a few of your own Notions as That thou wilt not dispute with me but sayest It serveth thee to know he is thy head c. But why didst not thou answer my Arguments alledged to prove what I urged in the case You go on and say You do not deny Christ taking flesh c. James I did draw thy veil from before the face of the people which thou hadst cast upon them and made thee speak somewhat plainly at the Bull and Mouth and now thou wouldst fain speak somewhat to cover over thy vile sayings but to this I shall speak anon And as touching the next thing which is that one of them said Christ was but a figure This he saith is a Lye because of the PRINTERS Errata who put page 54 of Sauls Errand to Damascius in stead of page 8. in which page he hath the words I charge though he saith there is no such saying in the book for this very thing was objected against him and he answers That Christ in the flesh was a figure And whereas I shew you that you have affinity with Gnosticks Manichees and Familists c. you answer in page 24. that it is not worth answering a cunning shift indeed but if I should say so to your questions by and by you were well enough served You go on and tell me that I have perverted the Scriptures c. but hast not shewed one Text wherein unless it be that of Lev. 19. which I have already shewed to be no perverting of it He goes on and because I say in page 45 of my book that all that I have writ against you is either from your own Mouthes or Writings you say This is a Lye but James in the same page about the middle of it you might have found these words namely That the Errors I charge you with are either such as fell from your own Mouthes or else such as your selves being charged with could not deny Now put all this together and what untruth have I told for did you deny any of those things that I say you did not deny And though you say the men were bloody persecuting Priests c. that charged you the more shame for you that you should call your book an Answer to their Petition and withall print their Objections your selves pretending to answer them and when all comes to all never deny the charge in the particulars I mention but say somewhat else in stead thereof which is nothing to purpose as you have done by me as any may see that reades your Answer both to my book and the Westmerland Petition which is a thing I never saw any further then as your selves did transcribe and print it He now comes to the Postscript at the end of my book and saith that because some saw my murtherous minde they did write down what he said Though that which they have writ to cover thy Assertion was not spoken at that time as many can witness that came out with me whatever you spake after I was gone And though you seem to carry it by witness you must know That your Witnesses are Parties being of the same faith with thy self viz. That Christ was not born after the flesh and it doth behove them to make a cloak for thee lest thy deeds sayings should be made manifest But whatever they have said that matters not since you confess all that I charge which is That Christ was not born after the flesh And how have you answered the thing I charge in the Postscript which is That it is all one to be born after the flesh as it is to be born according to the flesh and though I prove it all one in the 52 53 pages of my book yet thou makest no kinde of answer which shews that thou hast pick'd up this Letter to keep thee from the lash of the Law because thou sayest Some saw I had a murtherous design or else thou wouldst have answered what I say in the Postscript but that you did fear the light You proceed and in page 26. say that I say The Scriptures make no such distinction as born after the flesh and after the Spirit His 29. LYE

thou answerest that which I never objected as my book at large will manifest You proceed in page 11. to answer my Quaeres and therein thou answerest to that I never asked For 1. I ask What need there is of the Scripture to declare the minde of God if it may be known without it every whit as well And you say I ask His 22. LYE What need there is of the Scriptures to declare the minde of God importing to the Reader as all may perceive both in the Question and Answer That I was a man that judged them needless But might he not as well have accused Paul for saying Preaching was vain when he he saith If there be no Resurrection THEN is our preaching vain as tell his Reader that I ask what need there is of Scripture when I said What need is there of Scripture to declare the minde of God if it may be known without it every whit as well as they pretend So that this fills up the measure of his Lyes Again I ask Whether by the Light which is in EVERY man ALL men may come to know a Virgin had a Son c. And you say I quaere Whether THAT Light will shew a Virgin had a Son which was not my quaere for I know that THAT Light which is Christ will shew this and all other Truths But what 's this to the question I ask viz. Whether this Light be in every man c. Which term EVERY MAN ALL NATIONS and THE WHOLE WORLD thou deceifully leavest out of most of my quaeres and so makes them speak another thing and then goest about to answer them as any one may see that reades my book and compares thy Answer to it and therefore let these instances suffice for the rest wherein the Reader may see thy deceit and also what-snuffling answers thou givest to the Twelve Quaeres viz. That all those things I quaere thou sayest and much more were made known by the Light within c. This is the substance of thy Answer But James how doth this answer the Quaeres which asketh thee Whether EVERY MAN hath a Light WITHIN him that will bring him to know that a Virgin had a Son and that Christ rose from the dead in three days c We believe That by a Light within these things were revealed to some men but that 's not our question but this viz. Whether there be in EVERY MAN a Light that will shew him these things proposed in the Quaeres page 19. And when I ask you What need there is of your preaching and writing to inform the world if the Light within the world can do it without you You answer in page 11. That there is need of preaching to direct people to the Light Oh miserable darkness what can the Light within without any other means direct people to the whole will of God and cannot this Light direct people to it self without you Is not this just as if a man should say That the light of the Sun will shew men every thing but it self You answer the fifth Error I charge which was That one John Lawson said The Day of Judgement was past already saying It may be seen whether he own it or no by them that reade the book And so it may if they reade but the 35 page of Sauls Errand to Damascus which is the book I cited for that purpose To the 6 and 7 Errors I charge which is against one George Fox for saying That he was the Eternal Judge of the World and the VVay the Truth and Life You answer That I prove this like the rest viz. as I did foamings at your Meetings because you did not deny it See page 12. of your answer To this I reply and that as I have said viz. That if any shall print to the world that they are charged with swellings foamings quakings and roarings and also that these things are found among them in little children and when they come to answer it shall onely deny to be guilty of one of these and say nothing to the rest may not a man rationally conclude these men guilty of all the rest especially considering it is testified by many witnesses who are better to be believed then themselves In like manner I still say That the Petitioners of Lancaster did witness this against Fox and he did not deny it viz. That he said he was the Eternal Judge of the VVorld and the VVay Truth and Life Now what clearer proof can be made of any thing among men then to witness what is charged and the person charged deny it not and yet James says this is no proof I pray if this must not go for proof how will you prove any thing to be true that one doth not see The eighth Error I charge is That George Fox said He that took a place of Scripture and made a Sermon of it or from it is a Conjurer This thou wouldst excuse by saying These were not Georges words but the Accusers Indeed this is like the rest But how dost thou know they were not Georges words Canst thou have the face to say that they are NOT his words when he though he prints the Charge and Answer to it doth not deny it himself Here thou exceedest Fox himself for impudency Nay doth not Fox answer in page 7. of Sauls Errand to Damascus that he that raiseth the Spirit out of the Letter is a Conjurer And how far doth this differ from the charge But however is it not more reasonable to believe the men that witness this against him seeing he denies it not then thee who wilt deny that for George which he denies not for himself The tenth Error I charge is upon George Fox for saying The Scriptures are carnal and thou tell'st me That this is a Lye But James how darest thou say it is a Lye when George himself in his printed answer to it would not tell the Petitioners that charged him with it They lyed but in stead thereof evades the charge by saying The Letter of the Scripture is carnall The eleventh Error I charge is upon one Leonard Fell which through the PRINTERS mistake is printed Hill and that was That he said Christ had no Body but his Church To this thou repliedst That thou doest not know that name and therefore thou makest no answer to the charge Herein thou wast glad to be ignorant else thou mightest have looked into the book and page I cited for the proof of it and easily have found it was the Printers mistake The eleventh Error I charge is against one John Lawson who said He had been in Hell but was now in Heaven Thou sayest It is plain the Saints have witnessed being in Hell and Heaven also VVhat jugling is here I charge him with saying HE had been in Hell but was now in Heaven and you tell us of the Saints of old that some of them had been in Heaven and Hell as Jonah was in

This is another of thy Lyes Where do I say any such thing in all my book but this I said That the Scriptures made no distinction between a being born after the flesh and born according to the flesh And you say again That Christ as he was born of Mary was not born after the flesh but begotten and brought forth by Promise To this I answer First that this is nothing to the question for though he was begotten and brought forth by promise doth this prove that therefore he was not borne after the flesh for Isaac was borne according to the promise yet he was borne after the flesh likewise So Gods promise concerning Christs Birth doth not prove that therefore he was not borne according to the flesh And whereas thou say'st he that was borne after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit I say that though this be true in sinfull unregenerate men that have no other Birth and generation then what was after the flesh yet it is not true in Christ and his being borne after the flesh for he being without sin did not persecute him that was borne after the Spirit as sinfull men do And therefore James because thou say'st Christ was not borne after the flesh shew me a plain text for such a Doctrine without any of these conceited consequences or else take shame to thy self for finding fault with proofs that others bring when they do not give the express text Thou tellest me of my promise to repent if I should be better informed c. to this I answer that thou hast rather strengthened my former opinions of thee then any way better informed me except I will take thy bare saying I lye for a better information Thou now comest upon me with a pack of questions to which I shall answer His first question is whose Spirit that is which men understand the Scriptures with and try Spirits with who are without the Spirit of God Seeing thou affirms that a man may understand Scriptures without the Spirit of God or whether God hath set up such a tryer yea or no. Answ The greatest part of this question is grounded upon a false bottome viz. something that I said which is most part false for I did never say those words yet I have answered to them so far as I am concerned in my answer to thy letter which thou sent'st to me after our meeting at Gerard Roberts in the former part of this book but yet if by understanding the Scriptures thou doest mean all things contained in them I say this he cannot do without Gods Spirit and if by trying Spirits thou meanst to try between your Spirits and the Spirit of Christ I can say again that a man without the Spirit of God may by his own Spirit understand that you are not guided by the Spirit of truth that have told so many untruths His second Quest Seeing thou confesseth Christ to be the true light and that he lighteth every man that comes into the World but denyes that light to be within shew in plainness where he doth inlighten every man that comes into the World and not within and how they come by it and seeing thou say'st every man hath it how have they it and not within This is answered already in Page 51. of my book called Quakers quaking The later part of the question is a lye for I never said that every man hath the light of Christ though Christ hath used means to bring the World to the light that their deeds may be reproved But lest both my books should not come to the readers hand I do again answer that Christ is said to inlighten the World as he pardoneth their sins though none but them that believe shall receive remission of sins yet he pardoneth their sins by proposing a way for the pardon of them So Christ inlightens every man I and that within too if you will have it by giving them means to be inlightened within though thousands like your selves stumble because there is no light in them 3. Quest Seeing thou confessest that the heathen have a light that reproves them of sin but not within shew where it is and what it is whether the light of Christ or no and how they came by it Answ That the heathen may have a light among them that may not be in them I have already shewn in my former book Page 52. but further did not Christ tell the Pharisees Luke 17.2 that the Kingdome of God was within them when indeed it was but among them and so the margent reads it for they were far enough from having his Kingdome erected in their inward man In like manner may God send light among the heathen which may not be within every individial man of them And whereas you ask me what light it is I say it is the light of nature which taught them to do by nature the things contained in the Law And whereas you ask how they came by it I answer that that manifestation they have is from God for God hath shewed it to them Rom. 1.19 4. Quest Whether that which reproves the heathen when they sin be the same that reproves thee when thou sinnest and the rest who call your selves believers and whether it be in the same place and wherein doth it differ as to place nature and operation Answ To which I answer First that that which reproves the heathen of sin doth reprove us and you too And as touching the place I confess it is an odd term yet I answer that it is the conscience that must be reproved of sin according to Rom. 2. but yet this light may differ in the nature of it as the light of the Moon differs from the Sun and as a man may see further by the light of the Sun then he can by the light of the Moon even so may them that have the light of Christ have a further inspection into the things of Christ then the Gentiles who walk by the light of nature yet that light of nature we have together with the light of the Gospel which will convince us of sins against nature but for sins in the particular circumstances relating to Gods worship the light of nature will not convince and here these lights differ in operation also 5. Quest The fifth Question is whether your light who call your selves believers be within you and if within you how came you by it when you were in darkness as the moving cause and if without how doth it inlighten and not within and where doth it abide for you that is not in you Answ To this I answer that God which commanded the light to shine out of darkness is he which hath shined in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of God in the face of Jesus Christ 2 Cor. 4.6 this being answered there is no need of answering the later part of this quaere for the light that is in believers doth