is by hearing and hearing by the word of God wherevnto agreeth that which Iesus Christ saith putting the hearing of the word before the faith thereof saying He that heareth my word and beleeueth in him that sent me c. Also that which hee commaunded the Apostles first to preach the Gospell that the hearers might by preaching be disposed and brought to the faith For these reasons knowledge that the doctrine which is taught is the word of God is necessarie to beleeue And without that it is not possible for a man to haue faith or beleeue in God except he be first assured that what is taught him is the word of God And for the demaund made touching the instruction of children growne to yeares of discretion or others whether it be requisite they should know the word before they beleeue it The answere is yea And Thomas himselfe saith that the faith of the articles of the Creed ought to be expounded that is to say cleared which cannot be done without the knowledge of the word Obiection In such an answere there is multiplying of words without ought touching the point proposed for they doubt not but that they ought to Catechise children and others and to expound by the word of God the Articles of the Creed vnto them but the question is whether they must vnderstand that this Word is written in the bookes of the Prophets and Apostles so that without the knowledge of those writings they cannot haue the knowledge and beliefe of the articles of the faith contained in the said Creed The Doctors pray the Ministers to answere yea or no and after their answere to adde what reasons they will Which thing if they will not do the Doctors will proceed to an other article after notwithstanding for conclusion of all they haue shewed vnto them that if this knowledge of the scriptures were necessarie to vnderstand the articles of the Creed in examining them according to the conformitie of the same scriptures that it behooueth sith the foundation is so necessarie to place this among the Articles of the Creed I beleeue that there be holy scriptures And it is to be noted that there is not any mention made in the said Creed that there are holy scriptures So that a man may be truly a Christian before he vnderstand that there is any Christian doctrine and word of God written And therfore to beleeue and vnderstand the Creed it is not necessary to knowe the word of God to be written And the Doctors do protest that they will speake no more of this article Answere By conference of the demaunds and answeres it is easie to iudge who more abound in speech they which propound or they that answere Touching the second article the answere is as before that to beleeue and be a Christian the knowledge of Gods word is necessarie whether the said word be written or reuealed And as touching the remonstrance made the Ministers do answere that they for their part will in no wise allow men should ought adde to the pure word of God And they beleeue that the Creed of the Apostles is nothing else but the pure word of God which is proposed vnto vs by his spirit saying that it should bee a breach against his commandement to adde therevnto new articles And they do maintaine that had there bene other articles which had bene necessary to saluation the spirit of God would not haue omitted nor forgotten them For conclusion albeit no expresse mention bee made of the holy scripture in the Creed yet so much is there couertly vnderstood that the Church which cannot stand if shee be not built and founded vpon the foundation of the Prophets and Apostles is there proposed for an article to beleeue Reply The Doctors say that this answere is impertinent and no more to the purpose then the former And although the Prophets and Apostles had not written yet had the Church bin built vpon their foundation as it was in the time of AbrahaÌ„ and before there was any scripture which were it necessary to saluation it had bene put amongst the articles of faith Answere The Ministers say that this reply is yet more impertiment and for the reason thereto added that the faith was in the time of Abraham although there were no word written they do agree therevnto But it is ill inferred there is no written word There is therefore no word And it is a fallacie in argument which the Logicians doo call A dicto secundum quid ad dictuÌ„ simpliciter From a qualified saying to a saying simple The fourth dayes Dispute on Fryday the 12. of Iuly THe Ministers do shewe that they still continue their former requests considering the protestations aforesaid made by the Doctors who haue twise declared that they were not assembled but onely to satisfie the Lord Montpensier and my Lady of Buillon considering also the request publikely made by the said Lady in the assembly to bee instructed in the point of the Supper and not vpon the others whereof she thinketh her selfe sufficiently instructed and not to need therein any further teaching And for these causes do the Ministers request as before they haue done that the first thing whereof they shall conferre be that of the Supper and of the Masse And the rather for that they vnderstood by some worthy of credit that the Doctors intend not to enter into conference vpon that point Vpon this declaration the Doctors say that they are ashamed to heare so often protestations and that the Ministers it seemeth will thus spend the time to flee eftsoones the Conference of the articles of their confession which neuerthelesse they haue oftentimes set forth to be examined And where they say that Madame de Buillon for instruction of whom the company is assembled hath required publikely to bee instructed in the articles of the Masse and in no other They say that some mention shee made for Conference of the Masse but they neuer heard say that she held her selfe sufficiently instructed concerning the other articles The Doctors do offer that if the said Lady will confesse that she beleeueth all the other articles proposed by the Ministers and their like against the doctrine of the Catholike Church to be eâ—ronious they are presently readie to enter into Conference of the Masse But contrariwise if she be seduced with errors contrary to the doctrine of the Church Catholike to keepe the order which appertaineth to instructors and to lay the foundatioÌ„ of the Masse the Doctors haue determined according to the good holy desâ—e of my lord Montpensier to carâ—chife teach the Lady his daughter coÌ„cerning euery article by order And they further say that the Ministers do what they of their Church are accustomed which is alwaies to flie back froÌ„ the Confereâ—ence with the Catholikes and be forâ—the point proposed by them be decided they put an other in Dispute as did Beâ—a and the Ministers with him at Poissy who
Churches if it were not presently met with knowing also that it was a false reproach which they had put vpon the Ministers began to excuse them assuring the King and the Queene that the Ministers would alwaies be readie to conferre with the Doctors and to defend by the scripture the confession of their Churches in what place soeuer and before such persons as they would it should bee So that they were permitted to pray vnto God as they had required in the beginning of their conference and that they should there obserue the order and meanes which they had proposed or other better as they should thinke good to the end to auoyd all wranglings and the confusion of voyce and cries as is ordinarily seene in schooles and disputes of Sophisters and contentious persons My Lord of Neuers hauing vnderstood these words of my Lord the Admirall found them verie reasonable and perswaded as it is certaine first by the spirit of God and afterwards by a haughtinesse and generositie of heart which thrust him forward with a will to vnderstand the truth of each thing sollicited the King and Queene that by theyr commission and vnder their authoritie the said Conference might bee established And so wrought he that hee obtained of their Maiesties what hee demaunded By meanes whereof hauing aduertised my Lord the Admirall of theyr pleasures they consulted together of the order should bee held in the same conference And resolued in the end that my Lord De Neuers and my Lord the Duke of Buillon should bee the chiefe Iudges therein and that of the one side and the other should some Gentlemen be present to bee witnesses and beholders of whatsoeuer should bee done in the same And further that there should be two Notaries of both sides of the litle fort at Paris which should put in writing and signe whatsoeuer should be alleadged and proposed by the parties These conditions thus conceiued and agreed of among the said Lords were also accepted by the Doctors Vigor and De Sanctes of the one partie and by the Ministers De Spina Sureau of the other partie Who began to assemble themselues together on Tuesday the ninth of Iuly 1566. in the house of my said Lord of Neuers where in his presence and of other Lords which were with him after prayers made by the Ministers in the absence of the Doctors who because they would not be present had withdrawn themselues apart Doctor Vigor spake and began by protestation That the cause why hee and his companion were entred into Conference with the Ministers was not to be instructed in any point of Religion nor any way to withstand the Constitutions of the Councels and chiefly that of Trent by which they are forbidden to dispute with heretikes And that they for their part were wholly resolued to abide in the faith of the Romish Church but that at the request and pursuite of the Lord de Montpensier who for the reducing of his daughter Madame de Buillon had required the said Conference they were come thither to the end to satisfie him declare the holy zeale they haue to seeke and bring backe to the flocke those which are thence departed Wherevpon their speeches ended the Ministers speaking protested likewise that that which had led theÌ„ to conference with the Doctors was not because they doubted of any article conteined in their confession which they knew to bee drawne froÌ„ the pure word of God but that it was to maintaine the same against the Sophistries and cauillations of theÌ„ which would impugne it and to retaine Madame de Buillon in the good and holy institution which shee had receiued by the grace which God had giuen her Thus the protestations on both sides made the Ministers supposed that the Doctors theÌ„ following the intention of my Lord de Montpensier and the desire of Madame de Buillon should haue begunne the Conference by the Dispute of two points the Supper and the Masse But as they that will besiege and batter a Towne begin a farre off to make their Trenches and approaches to prepare themselues to the deciding and conference of the said two points they began to lay their foundation by the authoritie of the Church wherevpon they would establish the certaintie of the Articles of faith and generally of all the holy Scripture And therefore the demaunds and objections were proposed by the Doctors And the answeres giuen by the Ministers De Sainctes beginning and De Spina answering as followeth Actes of the Dispute and Conference holden at Paris Question WHerevpon doo you ground your Religion Answere Vpon the word of God Question What do you vnderstand by the word of God Answere The writings of the Prophets and Apostles Question Doo you receiue for their writings all the bookes of the Bible as well of the olde as the new Testament attributing vnto all one like authoritie Answere No but following antiquitie wee distinguish betweene the Canonicall bookes and the Apocripha calling those Canonicall vpon whose doctrine the faith and all Christian religion is builded And those Apocripha which haue not such authoritie that wee may build or establish vpon them any Article of faith but are proper to teach and well gouerne the estate of life and manners of Christians by reason of the goodly and notable sentences which are comprised in them Question By what meanes doo you know that the one is Canonicall the other Apocripha Answere By the spirit of God which is a spirit of discretion and enlightneth all those vnto whom it is communicated to make them capable to bee able to iudge and discerne things spirituall and to know and apprehend the truth when to them it is proposed by the witnesse and assurance which thereof it giueth them in their hearts And as wee discerne the light from darkenesse by the facultie of seeing which is in the eye euen so may wee easily seperate and acknowledge the truth from vntruth and from all things in generall which may be false absurd doubtfull or indifferent when as we are furnished with the spirit of God and guided by the light which it lightneth in our hearts Question Yea but some man may boast to haue the spirit of God which hath it not And we see by Histories that all heretikes haue euer thought to haue the truth on their side and endeuoured to authorise their doctrine by inward â—euelations which they feigne to haue receiued of Gods spirit Whereby it may appeare what daunger there should bee to referre the censure of a booke or doctrine to the witnesse of the spirit of God which one particular man shal imagine or feigne to haue receiued in his heart Answere Very easie it is to auoyd such daunger in following the counsell which Saint Iohn doth giue vs in his first Catholike Epistle not to beleeue indifferently all spirits but to proue and diligently to examine them before wee receiue or approue what they propose And the triall to be made in
such a case is first to regard the ende wherevnto a doctrine tendeth which shall be declared vnto vs or a booke that shall be presented vnto vs For if it tend to establish and aduance the glory of God it is true as Iesus Christ saieth in S. Iohn That he which seeketh the glory of God is truth and there is no vnrighteousnesse in him Afterwards we must consider whether being reduced to the proportion and the analogie of faith as saith S. Paul it well agreeth and accordeth with the principles and foundations of Religion Obiection All say and may say as much thereof and therefore this reason is no sufficient argument as I conceiue by effect and other proofes how I ought to stay my selfe thereupon Moreouer this answer passeth the limits of the proposition For it presupposeth the Scripture to be the knowne foundation of Religion And the proposition was to know the reason which should assure me that the Scripture was of God and that it behooueth to distinguish betweene the Bookes thereof Answere It is easie to iudge if the end of the doctrine proposed tendeth to establish and aduance the honour and glorie of God As if men were exhorted thereby to withdraw wholly their trust from creatures wholly to settle and repose themselues in God to resort to him in all their necessities and to depend vpon his prouidence in all their affaires to praise and thanke him for all the goodnes they haue This presupposed no man could doubt that the doctrine which tendeth to such an end should not be good and receiuable And to that which hath bene proposed that the former Answere was out of the limits of the first proposition it seemeth not for that the first thing proposed was What is the foundation of our Religion Wherunto it was answered That it is the writings of the Prophets and Apostles Obiection This answer is common to the Lutherans and Anabaptists yea also to the Deistes which say more then all others that they seeke the glorie of God and all that which in the answere is written And generally each man that should vse the like saying should not cease to erre in all the Articles of the Creed the first excepted But to returne to the point without so much wandering it seemeth to vs not lawfull to vse the foundation of the Scripture before it bee notorious and certaine that it is the holy Scripture and that there is difference amongst the bookes thereof And before it bee known that I haue particular inspiration of the holy Ghost and that such a particular inspiration of the holy Ghost be a sufficient foundation of Religion Answere The Deistes and other hereâ—iques cannot bee holpen by the foresayd answere for confirmation of their errors Forasmuch as the Desties denying Jesus Christ cannot glorifie God seeing that to glorifie the Father it behooueth first to know and to glorifie the Sonne no more also other heretiques For that not knowing the trueth nor consequently Iesus Christ which is the way the life and the trueth they cannot know nor glorifie God And touching that obiected that the answere was from the purpose that may be iudged by the conference of the demand and answere And for the latter point of the obiection wherein it is sayde that the reuelation which each particular man sayth hee hath of the Spirite of God is to him the foundation of Religion that was not answered But that the foundation of all true Religion is the doctrine of the Prophets and Apostles Of the trueth of which all the Church in generall and the members thereof in particular are assured by the witnesâ—e and inward reuelation of the Spirit of God Obiection Then it behooued to adde whatsoeuer is heere sayde to the other answere before it were good and it seemeth that the answere doeth containe as it were a mockerie For it is certaine that when all trueth is in the doctrine of a man that man is no more euill nor an heretique But wee search out the beginning of trueth what it shou'd bee And touching the reply which denieth that the particular reuelation is the foundation of Religion There is no great difference For if the particular reuelation bee a sufficient foundation for euery one to know what is of the Apostles and Prophets that particular reuelation by consequence is the foundation of Religion For that is the foundation of knowledge whereupon euery particular man knoweth and sayeth his Religion is founded Answere The answeres haue bene made according as the demaundes haue beene propounded and it will not appeare by the reading of them that they are willing to mocke For in such a Conference as this where the matter is to seeke out the honour and glory of God Mockerie should bee ioyned with impietie And as touching reuelation that it is equall to the Scripture which is the foundation of Religon wee denie it and say they bee things different although they be conioyned together and that they doo follow the one the other euen as appeareth by that which is written in Esay Behold my couenant with them sayth the Lord my Spirit that is in thee and my wordes which I haue put in thy mouth shall not depart out of thy mouth nor out of the mouth of thy seede And that which followeth From whence a man may iudge the distinction which the Prophet putteth between the reuelation of the holy Ghost and the word Obiection For conclusion of this Conference I leaue each man to iudge of the agreement of the answerers and obiections And for that which is alledged of the vnion of the word and of the holy Ghost out of the text of Esay they are things from the purpose and new matter And we must not compare the reuelation of euery particular person whereof was the question vnto that of the Prophet Esay who had other proofes that the Spiâ—â—t spake by him and had oft times made demonstration thereof And of all that aboue said I leaue the iudgement to euery Christian Answere We leaue also the iudgement of what hath beene spoken of the one part and the other to the hearers and readers And for the passage of Esay produced the question is not of the reuelation of the Prophet nor of the spirit communicated vnto him but of the spirit and the words which God promised to all his people with whom he made his couenant And as touching the other pretended proofes which the Prophet had of his vocation we make no doubt thereof But we say that the principall and most assured was that which he had by the testimony of God his Spirit as appeareth by the sixt Chapter of his Prophecie Obiection Be it so that by the person of Esay be spake to his people it followeth not that he spake not to Esay first And I allow that he promised indeed his spirit to his people that is to say to his Church vniuersal Not that he wil that euery one yea being in this Church
betweene the true reuelations of the Lord and the Word which proceeding from him is as true as the reuelation And the reuelation reciprocally as true as the Word Yet doth it not therefore follow that the word and the reuelations of the spirit of the Lord by the which we may be conducted to the vnderstanding of the word are not things different and that the one doth not go before the other And where the said Vigor prayeth the said De Spina to hasten to the point he answereth That he cannot else where ground his answeres then vpon the demaundes which be made vnto him Reply Whereunto the said Vigor replyed that hee referred himselfe touching the sence to that which is touched in the answere of the said De Spina And where he saith that the word goeth before the reuelation that is of no value to make difference vpon the question proposed And to come to the point the said Vigor demaundeth whether a man may be assured that he hath reuelation from the Lord that a booke is a booke of the holy Scripture and when he may iudge assuredly of his inward inspiration Also how he can assure any of this inspiration giuen him of the Lord Answere Touching the first Article of the last demaund It is not a thing impertinent to distinguish the scripture from the interpretation thereof inaâ—much as they bee things diuers and diuers gifts of the Lord. And to answer to the question proposed how a particular man before the reuelation and inward testimonie of the spirit of God in his heart may acknowledge that it is Canonicall The spirit of God varieth not from himselfe And abiding in one particular man he wil acknowledge the Scripture which is come from him and beareth his markes And for answere to the second demand hee also saith that the selfe same spirit beeing likewise in a third person will acknowledge both that the word and the reuelation are of him for the reasons alledged That is to say that the spirit of God in diuers persons is alwayes equall and like vnto himselfe Obiection This is no full satisfaction to the first question proposed by the which it was demaunded how some man may iudge in himselfe that hee hath the holy Ghost to discerne one Booke to be the holy Scripture and another not but Apocrypha and how he may declare vnto another that he hath his inspiration from God Answere The spirit of God is called a seale in the scripture therefore is it that the first effect which it produceth in the heart of him vnto whom it is communicated is to assure him of his presence As for assuring a secoÌ„d person of the reuelation that one hath receiued of the spirit of God it is easie Forasmuch as the spirit of God which openeth the mouth of the one to speake doth also open the eares of the other to listen to his word and the heart to beleeue it to be perswaded thereof So that betweene the maister and the scholler between the teacher and the hearer when they be both furnished and enlightened by the Spirit of God there is alwayes one mutuall consent to acknowledge one another Obiection Such certaintie is a great incertaintie And there is not any of what sect soeuer which doeth not assure himselfe to haue the holy Ghost and the trueth on his side which is a foolish presumption How can a man distinguish a presumption from a true inspiration Answere S. Iohn Chrisostome saith that in vaine a man boasteth of the spirit without the word which is a meane to represse sectes and heresies and to iudge of all things which heretiques others would propose vnder the authoritie tytle of the Spirit of God For as by the spirit we know the true sence of the word so do we also mutually acknowledge by the word who those be which haue the spirit of God or no. Obiection This is no answere to the question For the question is not to examine the doctrine by the word but the question is to know whether it be the word of God by which a man will examine and approoue a doctrine And how a man shall iudge assuredly that hee hath a reuelation of the Lord that that is the word of God Answere If he be faithfull therefore shall he iudge by the Spirit of God which is in him as in him which telleth the same vnto him And if he be vnfaithfull as impossible it is that he should iudge thereof as it is to a blinde man to iudge and discerne of colours presented vnto him Forasmuch saieth S. Paul as the Spirit of God is he by whom wee know and iudge the things that are of God Obiection Yet is not this an answere to the question proposed let the iudgement thereof be left to the readers and hearers Now make they another demaund that is to say Whether we be not very certaine by the word of God that the Lord doeth assist his Church and will assist it vnto the end of the world And whether it be not a more assured thing to stay on the consent and iudgement of the Church touching the determination of the Canonicall bookes of the holy Scripture the distinction of them from the Apocrypha then to leane vpon his owne iudgement esteeming it to bee an inward inspiration whereof a man can make no proofe but supposeth that he hath the holy Ghost Answere The Doctors doo confound the opinions which fantasticke men may haue with the witnesses and reuelations of the holy Ghost although betweene those two there is as much distance as is from heauen to earth And as touching the consent of the Church suppose that it proceedeth from the spirit of God Infallable it is also certaine that particular reuelations may be as of Esay and other Prophets And forasmuch as the one and the other do proceed from one selfe same Authour which is the Spirit of trueth The certaintie of the reuelations of God his Spirit made vnto all the Church in generall and to euery member of it in particular is of one selfe same moment Obiection The Minsters cannot shew to the Catholiques nor to any others that they are not fantasticall for asmuch as they make no proofe more then do other sects of the reuelation of the holy Ghost made vnto them and as touching that is said suppose that it proceedeth froÌ„ the Spirit of God They doubt it seemeth of the assistance of the holy Ghost in the Church of God which saith S. Paul is Columna firmameÌ„tuÌ„ veritatis the pillar ground of truth And a thing it is to be wel considered that they are more certain of the assistaÌ„ce of the Lord in one particular person then in the Church vniuersal And where they say that to know the truth the holy Spirit assisteth as well euery member of the Church as the whole church By that might a man conclude that the particular faithful could neuer erre that the
difference betweene both parties touching the distinction of the bookes Canonicall and Apocrypha Obiection Although the Ministers doo affirme that they build their Religion vpon the word of God yet build they Gods word vpon their inward reuelation So that such a reuelation is the foundation of the Word and consequently of their religion For they receiue not for the word of God but that which they thinke to bee particularly reuealed to them Touching the other Article wherein they finde fault that the Doctors haue said that faith is obtained by hearing of the word of God it seemeth they will stay vpon small things because they will not goe to the principall And where they say that faith is the gift of God and therefore is not gotten it is too plaine by manifold texts of Scripture that one selfe-same thing to be giuen and obtained is not repugnant As the kingdome of heauen which is giuen to the blessed and notwithstanding men obtaine it by true faith working by charitie And the scripture it selfe dooth call it a reward and recompence of good workes And Saint Paul saith that by liberalitie and almesdeeds the grace of God is gained Yea that which Saint Paul saith Fides ex auditu Faith commeth by hearing cannot otherwise be vnderstood but that faith commeth by hearing the word of God which is the obtaining thereof by the meane of hearing the word preached although it be a gift of God The like subtiltie they vse willing to reproue that which hath bene spoken that faith is the truth reuealed as putting great difference betweene the truth reuealed and the reuelation of truth Meet it were that the subtiltie were vaileable against S. Paul who saith Panis quem frangimus nonne communicatio corporis Domini est The bread which wee breake is it not the communion of the body of the Lord Which is as much to say as Panis fractio nonne c. The breaking of the bread is it not c. And therefore to speake properly it behoueth that the text of S. Paul bee subiect to such reprehensions And as touching this article that they may not enter thereinto albeit the Ministers do reply the Doctors will say no more of it as beeing a thing too much impertinent For in the end should we speake of Merit and from that matter fall into an other It troubleth them to deale with the vocation of lawfull Ministers of the Church and to eschew that matter would not alledge what they might without straying that first before we receiue their doctrine it was meete to examine whether they were Ministers lawfully sent from the true Church to preach the word of God and in their preachings to be heard of the people according to the text of S. Paul aboue alledged Which thing had they of the new Religion well considered a very sufficient argument should they haue had for not receiuing of their doctrine because it is more cleare then the day that they be not Ministers sent by the Pastors of the Church but thrust in themselues to preach vnable to shewe any signe of their calling from men and much lesse from God And were it lawfull for euery one to preach the word which saith he is sent there would be infinite Sects as we see at this time haue happened And they say no more of this matter for feare to aggrauate these things any further Touching the Article where mention is made how a man may knowe that a reuelation is of Ood where it is said by the Ministers that men should rather know it by the word then by the consent of many that maketh nothing to the purpose of the Doctors For the question is how a man should iudge a booke to containe the word of God and not to iudge of the doctrine by the word alreadie receiued The Doctors would willingly desire and doo pray the Ministers to answere directly to the very point Touching that they haue saide Of the consent of many The Doctors said not so but spake of the consent of the Church which is also as infallible as the word of God For as it is certaine that the holy Ghost is author of the Word so also is it certaine that hee is the soule of the Church by whose conduct she can neuer erre witnesse S. Paul who calleth her Columnam firmamentum veritatis The ground and pillar of truth But they will not enter into this question whether the multitude of the Church may erre or not Neuerthelesse it will not be found â—ithens the Church was planted after the death of Iesus Christ that shee hath bene of lesse number then the Sects of heretikes And that alledged of Constance and of the time of the olde Testament seruâ—th nothing to that purpose for there is great difference betweene the Synagogue of the Iewes and the Church which is the congregation of all Nations beleeuing in Iesus Christ and which cannot be or consist but in a most great multitude otherwise the promises made to the Church of the Gentiles should be vaine for it is said to Abraham that his â—eed this must not bee vnderstood of the carnall should be multiplied as the starres of heauen and the sand of the sea Concerning the Article which beginneth Touching the Prophets c. The Doctors do say that they confesse there is great difference betweene phantasticall imaginations and the reuelation of the holy Ghost but the Ministers doo not answere how they would proue their particular perswasions to be reuelations rather then the vaine and foolish imaginations of the Prophets which Ezechiel spake of The which notwithstanding they called inspirations and what they said and preached they called also the Word of God Concerning the Article which beginneth Touching the Anabaptists c. The Doctors say that to one selfe-same end doo the Ministers and Anabaptists wholly produce the selfe-same places of which mention is made that is to say to stay and assure their doctrine to be of God because therof they haue particular reuelation as God hath promised them by the Prophets And for this selfe-same cause haue the Ministers produced the said testimonies of the scripture to proue that euery faithfull man may indge by his particular inspiration if a booke do containe the word of God and distinguish a booke Canonicall from Apocrypha to iudge and discerne the true doctrine from the false which is the selfe-same foundation of the Anabaptists and other heretikes To that Article which beginneth touching that which is produced of Brentius c. The Doctors say that the Ministers haue not well conceiued their meaning For they bring not the saying of Brentius and Bucer but onely because they say that they know the Canonicall bookes of the holy Scripture by the tradition of the Church and not by particular inspiration as the Ministers Touching the Article following the Doctors say there was a time when some made doubt of certaine bookes of the Scripture as of the Apocalips the Canonicall
her childe-birth The fourth that Iesus Christ descended not into hell but by imagination and not really Also say the Ministers against the said article that Iesus Christ dispaired of his saluation vppon the tree of the Crosse that hee was troubled in conscience fearing to bee damned and many other errors contained in this Article Vpon which obiections they warne the Ministers to be readie to answere therevnto Answere The Ministers will bee readie to answere to the slaunders aforesaid The fift dayes Dispute on Monday the fifteenth of Iuly THe Ministers doo require that the request fomerly made and now againe repeated by the Lady of Buillon namely that the Doctors should speedily conferre with them concerning the points of the Masse may be registred to the end the occasion may be knowne why the Doctors do delay and go back from the said Conference The Doctors vnwilling to loose time and willing to pursue the last dayes agreement according wherevnto the Ministers ought to answere touching the errors contained in the doctrine by them preached against the articles of the Creed as the Doctors haue noted and proposed the same And to enter forthwith into the matter they shewe that the said Ministers haue euilly alledged Saint Ciprian for them to denie the Creed to be the Apostles For S. Ciprian doubteth not nor putteth in doubt as a thing indifferent whether it bee the Apostles or no but sheweth expresly that before they departed asunder they composed the said Creed as in the Preface of his exposition may appeare The Doctors demaund further vpon the article of the omnipotencie which is the foundation of the Supper and the holy Sacrament why the article of omnipotencie being the first and principall article of faith is not contained in the confession proposed by the mouth of Beza at Poissy before the King and many times since and inserted in many bookes And why they haue made so many different confessions of faith taking out of one what they haue put in and adding contrariwise to others that they haue omitted And how it happeneth that the article of the Trinitie is not expresly in the first confession of the 1564. yeare which yet they do confesse in all obscuritie Answere It shall appeare by the last dayes acts that the Ministers haue required what they yet require for the present namely that the point of the Masse bee first put forth to be decided because it is the chiefe occasion for which the Conference was appointed And concerning that they propose touching the Creed the Ministers neuer doubted nor yet do they doubt but that it is a pure Apostolike doctrine Which to euery man that shall read the acts of the last day aforesaid may appeare where at least in halfe a dozen places they haue alwaies confessed and repeated the same And that which they haue maintained to be doubtfull is onely whether the Creed were written by the Apostles themselues or not whereof nothing can appeare to be verified by the Doctors And S. Ciprian himselfe whom the Doctors haue produced in his Preface doth aduertise the readers of the great varietie there is touching the said Creed for as much as diuers Churches haue added therevnto diuers articles He doth also aduertise them that he followeth in his explication the order of the Church of Aquilea Yea and expounding the article of the discention into hell of which the Doctors make so much adoo he specially saith that it is not in the Creed of the Romane Church nor yet of the Easterne Churches Whence may bee gathered the incertaintie of that aboue said and that there is no article of which men may reasonably doubt whether it be of the number of those which the Apostles haue written or whether some Church hath added the same or else it must bee said that the Apostles had written diuers Creeds And for the difference which the Doctors doo pretend to be in the confessions of the reformed Churches printed and published at sundry times the Ministers denie them as touching the sence to differ one from the other although for more ample declaration thereof some tearmes haue possibly bene chaunged And where they propose that in some of them the article of the omnipotencie of God was omitted the Ministers doo denie it and require the Doctors to bring forth a copie of the confession in which they maintaine the same to haue bene omitted for were it so it should be falsified and corrupted Adding that there is nothing in their confession doubtfull or obscure which some of the said Doctors haue well declared when they made a forme of confession by the patterne of that of the reformed Churches vsing the proper tearmes and sentences vnto which they added nothing to make it varie that excepted for which they are in difference with the Ministers and which they would hardly ground vpon the scriptures Obiection The Doctors say that the Ministers by their deniall that S. Ciprian holdeth the Apostles were Authors makers and composers of the Creed do sufficiently shewe how bolde they are to denie things manifest All which they referre to the auditory present and to the readers of this writing For ground of which deniall they rest vpon a simple reason to wit vpon the article of the discention into hell whether it were inserted by the Apostles or added by others to make it doubtfull whether they are Authors of all the other Articles For it is as if a man should say it is vncertaine whether Saint Iohn composed his Gospell because there bee that doubt whether the Historie of the Adulteresse bee of him But leauing that the Doctors demaund whether they confesse not by their doctrine that God by his almightinesse cannot cause one body to be in two places two bodies in one place Thirdly that God cannot cause a body to be inuisible Fourthly that one body may be in one place without holding place equall to it greatnesse Answere All these questions are impertinent and enstranged from the confession of the Churches which neuerthelesse the Doctors haue chosen for foundation of all the Conference Wherfore the Ministers require that they dispute to the purpose and choose one article or many of the said confession whervpon they pretend to build their said questions Obiection These questions are very pertinent to impugne the Articles of the Ministers confession For the question is not of the proper words contained in the said confession which is not but a Summary of the faith but the Doctors will impugne the sence of the Articles which they doo knowe by their proper writings By which they openly witnesse touching the article of the omnipotencie that God cannot doo the things aforesaid And the Doctors do shewe that it well and fitly serueth to impugne the doctrine of heretickes and for the true meanes to proue against them that they receiue not the holy scripture when they proue that they receiue not the true sence thereof They say also that the Ministers themselues hauing desired
can do any thing against the said order which he hath put in the world And thirdly that were it so there should bee contradiction in his will whereby it would followe that hee should be a lyar And for the fourth blasphemie that the power of God is his will and that his weaknesse is his vnwillingnesse And for the fift the Ministers pretend that God hath willed to make a body which at one selfe instant hath beene in many places before they beleeue that God could doo it otherwise they intend to inferre that hee had not power and could not do it So that the Ministers will nought acknowledge of the power of God but so much thereof as hee hath shewed by effect And to that purpose they alledge Tertullian All which blasphemies be drawne out of the proper words of the Ministers first article Touching the first which is that God cannot make a thing which derogateth the order he hath established in the world it is very apparant that it is blasphemie by the holy scripture which in infinite places maketh mention of the workes of God aboue nature which the Ministers call the order established in the world And in proper termes teacheth that God can do infinite things aboue the order by him established in the world Namely that Lots wife was turned into a pillar of salte that a barren woman in her old age hauing an old husband brought forth a childe that a withered Rodde budded that an Asse spake that the sonne stayed and went backe and other more then innumerable examples contained in the old Testament And as touching the new that a virgin brought forth a child That a body walked vpō the water mounted into heauen And generally all the myracles that Christ and his Apostles did aboue nature which is contrary to the order established in the world And of this blasphemie ensueth an other that God since hee established his order in the world hath not done nor could nor can do any myracle Now to proue that the scripture teacheth clearely that God can do contrary to the order established in the world it is written in the 50. of Esay Is my hand that is to say my power so shortned that it cannot helpe or haue I no power to deliuer Behold at my rebuke I drie the sea I make the flouds desart Their fish rotteth for want of water and dyeth for thirst I cloathe the heauens with darknesse make a sacke their couering And more expresly in the new Testament where it is said by S. Iohn That God can of stones raise vp children to Abraham Which place although it may be expounded allegorically yet hath S. Iohn willed in the litterall sence to shewe that it was possible to God And the diue did know and confesse that if Iesus Christ were the true sonne of God he could chaunge the stones into bread Which is neuerthelesse contrary to the order established in the world And it must be noted that there is no more impossibilitie that the bread should bee chaunged into flesh by the omnipotencie of God then a stone into bread And therefore they which denie this last done by the power of God do shewe to beleeue lesse the almightinesse of God then the diuels The confutation of the second blasphemie dependeth on the confutation of the first For although God against the order established in the world hath done many myracles as hath beene before recyted yet neuerthelesse there is no mutabilitie nor chaunge in his counsaile Touching the third blasphemie which is that if God did any thing contrary to the order established in the world there should be contradiction in his will and he should therfore be a lyar The Doctors obiect that it would follow that the will of God should be such neuer to will any thing contrary to the order established in the world And that God should haue purposed and declared by his word his will to be such For otherwise can they not know what the will of God shuld be And the Ministers do not nor can they make it appeare by the word of God the will of God to be such that he will not do any thing against the order established in the world And it behoueth the said Ministers to teach of such a wil of God before they conclude that God made one body to be in two places or other thing against the order of nature established in the world he should be a lyar Touching the fourth blasphemie which is that the power of God is his will and that his weaknesse is his vnwillingnes according to the sence which the Ministers giue it to wit if God cannot but that which he will it is an heresie of the heretikes called Monarchians in the Primitiue Church Against whom Tertulliā wrote in his booke Aduersus Praxeā and afterwards renewed by Peter Abaillardus And since cōtinued by one called Wickliffe who measured the power of God according to his will Which is against the expresse word of God which often declareth many things possible to God that notwithstanding he wil not do as by that which is written in the 2. of Wisedome appeareth where mention is made that God could send vpon the children of Israel many kinds of affliction to chasten thē but he would not do it hauing disposed all things by number waight measure And that he could destroy those which had offended but that he would not vsing mercie towards thē And in the Gospel our Lord said to S. Peter Thinkest thou that I could not now pray my Father and he would send me more then 12. Legions of Angels And notwithstanding he would not pray for that purpose And his Father would not send them although he had power to do it to the person of his sonne And Iesus Christ himself could haue letted his enemies frō taking away his life but he would not And the Father saith S. Paul by his power could haue saued him frō corporall death But neuerthelesse hee would not do the one nor the other Notwithstanding the Ministers might say that it was preordained yet the scripture saith expresly that he could do it although it had bin preordained And as touching the authoritie of Tertullian the Doctors are glad that the Ministers do produce it because it maketh wholy for the truth against the blasphemy of the Ministers who haue omitted many words and sentences of the said Tertullian which serued to the confutation of their error as by the text here inserted may be easily iudged Nihil Deo difficile Quis hoc nesciat Et impossibilia apud seculum possibilia apud deū Quis ignorat Et stulta mūdi elegit Deus vt confundat sapientia Ergo inquiūt haeretici Monarchiani scilicet difficile non fuit deo ipsū se patrem Filiū facere aduersus traditam formā rebus humanis Nam Aerilē parere contra naturam difficile deo non fuit sicut nec virginē planè nichil Deo difficile
same out of Gratian. And that men may knowe there is no great trust to be giuen to the fragments of Gratian without recourse to the copies of Saint Augustine in the tytle of Canon these words are there extracted out of the exposition of S. Augustine vpon the 54 Psalme From whence hee draweth the onely beginning of his Canon and yet doth he not truly cyte it The â—est of the said Canon is taken from diuers passages of S. Augustine And although there should bee Oportat S. Augustine speaketh after his wonted manner according to the proprietie of a body opposing the diuinitie to the humanitie without touching the operation of Gods omnipotencie Whereof when he maketh mention and that he speaketh of the Sacrament he plainly affirmeth the body of Iesus Christ to be in diuers places by the omnipotencie of God As the Doctors hope in their resolution to deduce as well out of him as other auncients also The 8. artide containeth many errors against Philosophie and truth First because the Ministers make no distinction betweene the body they cab Mathematicall to wit hauing dimension of breadth length and height and the Phisicall or naturall body to wit which is composed of a substantiall forme and matter by the vnion whereof it is made a naturall substantiall body Secondly although the body should bee without quantitie yet should it differ from our soules seperated which bee not materiall substances and consequently should it also differ from the Angells and spirits Thirdly the Ministers by the conclusion of this article doo manifestly declare that they acknowledge not any substantiall body And where they say that although God might seperate the dimensioÌ„s from a substance without corrupting the same that such substance should remaine spiritually as the Angels they are deceiued For such substance should not remaine immateriall as are our soules and the Angels which be not capable of dimensions and therefore should it yet bee different from Angels and our soules Concerning the ninth article the Ministers answere nothing to the purpose For the Doctors say not that the massinesse and waight bee essentiall in a body but to presse downeward is essentiall to the sadnesse and waight of a body And by their obiection they demaunded to knowe whether an earthly and massy body abiding in it substance and natural waight might not by the omnipotencie of God be hanged in the ayre without falling downward albeit it were against it nature and inclination Moreouer for answere to many articles which concerne the act of two bodies in one place and the passages of holy scripture and auncient Authors produced by the Doctors to proue that it was in Gods power to cause two bodies to bee in one onely place and contrariwise that by the same reason it was in the same power to cause one body to bee in two places First the Doctors say that the Ministers doo wrong to denie this consequence Two bodies by the power of God may be in one selfe-same place Then on the contrarie part one body may be in two places by the selfe-same power For as great repugnancie there is to Gods established order in the one as in the other and as great contradiction in nature founded vppon one selfe-same cause and reason to wit in the limitation and circumscription of a body Which as it is naturall to be in place so is it naturall for it to bee in place proportioned and answerable to it measures And if for the number of diuers places where a body should bee one may inferre that it should no more bee a body as implying contradiction by the same reason according to one onely place where many bodies should bee may also bee inferred that they should no more be many bodies or that many bodies should be one Which would imply the contradiction as the former And where the Ministers denie the antecedent which is that two bodies may bee in one place the Doctors to proue it haue produced the passages of scripture of the closed doores the birth of the body of our Lord of the Virgin the going out of the Sepulchre the passage of a Camell through the eye of a needle and the piercing of the heauens made by Christ in his ascention And for as much as the Ministers denie these actes contained expresly in holy scripture and expounded by the auncient Christians and depraue the same at their pleasure The Doctors estsoones vpoÌ„ the texts of scripture do say as followeth First as touching the closed doores Saint Iohn saith That Iesus came meaning into the place where his Disciples were But hee came not there without entering thereinto For to bee found in the middest of them without entring there should bee a much greater myracle then that hee entred there simply Secondly it is said Cum fores essent clausa or Ianuis clausis To wit that hee there entered the doores beeing shut And there is no apparance that the scripture maketh mention of doores rather then an other place were it not to shewe the place by which hee entred Thirdly it is added not in vaine that the doores were shut without saying that any opening was myraculously made For it is alwaies said Quod venit Ianuis clausis That hee came the doores beeing shut And were it true that the doores had bin opened by diuine power this should be false that our Lord entred Ianuis clausis for hee should haue entered Ianuis apertis howsoeuer they had bene opened And to shewe that the common consent of all the Auncientes haue bene that Iesus entered therein by the closed doores the Doctors set forth foure foundations drawne from the auncient Fathers The first is that all expresly confesse the myracle of such an entrie to haue bene wrought in the body of Iesus Christ The second is that such myracle was there wrought by the power of God aboue the nature of a body The third is that the Fathers especially iudge that herein consisteth the myracle that the body pasâ—ed through the closed doores and that so it was with an other body And for the fourth ground they adde that the Apostles by reason of such entring supposed that the body of Iesus Christ was not a true body but a spirit or vaine vision which the Ministers lightly passe ouer without any answere Now so it is that if by the power of God as the Ministers will haue it an opening was made of the doores or any other part of the house to giue entrie to the bodie of Iesus Christ then the myracle did not consist in the said body but in the doores or other part of the house which was open and nothing had beene there against the nature of the bodie of our Lorde for it is not repugnant to any bodie whatsoeuer to enter by an opening made by myracle or otherwise Bee it that Iustine was not Author of the questions against the Gentiles yet can they not deny but they are of some auncient Christian of the
maliciously oppose himselfe to the knowledge of the truth or which shall resist the same Against the merit of the bloud of Iesus Christ and passion of the Crosse in proper termes haue they written that had Iesus Christ onely dyed by the sorrowes of corporall death and by the sheading of his whole bloud he had nought done nor profited for our redemption if beeing on the Crosse hee had not endured in his soule the paines of the damned before his death and other horrible blasphemies contained in the atticle of the discent into hell The Ministers do also instruct their adherents that murther adultery robbery theft and euery crime whatsoeuer is but a veniall sinne to one predestinate who is neuer say they out of the fauour of God what thing soeuer he commit and do assure their faithfull and those of theyr Church to beleeue firmly that they are in grace and predestinate which is in plaine termes albeit the Ministers will otherwise excuse thē to giue leaue and license to commit all wickednesse and other articles which the Doctors will verifie where the matter shall require the same If the Ministers denie these points to be in their writings and published in their Sect the places of Caluins bookes which the Doctors noted in the Margin wil testifie the same To be briefe behold the glory of God and of his sonne Iesus Christ wherevnto tend the Ministers by the rooting out of the pretended impieties mentioned in many articles of their last resolution For briefe answere wherevnto the Doctors doo say that some things by slaunder of the Ministers are falsly imputed to the Catholique Church that others are expressed in the holy scripture and others drawne from the same and confirmed by the traditions of the Apostles and the vniuersall consent of the first Christian church the deceits excepted which the Ministers adde in euery article And so shall it bee shewed and proued at the least in time and place if the Ministers haue patience to handle in it ranke euery difficultiie but if to make their doctrine confused they persist to mingle all together the Doctors do protest to mocke therat without answere Moreouer the Ministers in generall doo rightly attribute to the power of God and say well that the certaine knowledge thereof is to be taken by the scriptures which hath bene alwaies auouched to them by the Doctors Very well say they also that it is infinite and incomprehensible But when they come to particularities and to shew wherein the omnipotencie lieth and consisteth then forget they holy scriptures and without them do measure the same according to the wisdome and eternall wil of God according to the order established in the world and as though they remembred no more that such power were infinit they tie it to the conditiō proprietie natural order of creatures As though to make something against or aboue the order condition natural proprietie of the creatures were a thing repugnant to the wisedome nature and wil of God Behold the short resolutiō which the Doctors can gather of the Ministers opinion touching the omnipotencie of God which shall appeare by their writings and answeres giuen to the said Doctors And as touching S. Augustine which they produce for them he hath bene answered heretofore The Doctors refer them to their writings cōcerning that which the Ministers do falsly tax thē to hold as a sufficient argument to infer some matter to be done of God to shewe that he hath power to do it The resolutions and obiections of the Doctors do plainly containe the contrarie The Doctors are also falsly accused by the Ministers as if they had affirmed the faith wholly contrary to nature Who haue onely said that the contradiction ordinarily made to faith founded vpon the word commeth from the consideration of naturall things against the power of God Concerning Abrahā the scripture in Genesis alwaies proposeth that he his wife made some difficultie touching the promise of God And cōsidered Corpus suū emortuū mortuā vuluā Sarae His owne dead body the dead wombe of Sarah vntil he heard the assurance of the omnipotēcie And S. Paul sufficiently declareth the speech of Abraham from his first vocation vntil after such assurance without putting distinction in the Historie of that which was before or after such assurance as is that which the Apostle saith that he cōsidered not Corpus suū emortuū his owne dead body but rested vpon the assurance of the almightinesse of the promise made vnto him The Doctors say they haue better concluded according to the faith we ought to haue of the power of God to make one bodie in diuers places then the Ministers haue done which haue not any word of God to settle theyr faith vpō to beleeue that God could not do it or that it repugneth the wisedome prouidence and eternall vertue or the humanitie of Iesus Christ yea the nature of a simple bodie only But concerning all that the Ministers do trust in their owne presumption and particular reuelation without one onely passage of scripture wherevpon they might stay theyr opinion Contrariwise haue the Doctors founded their faith not on the power of God onely to make one body in diuers places but to beleeue the deed and that God hath so willed on the holy scripture as in theyr Resolution is contained with the passages of auncient Fathers which they to this end haue alledged Which are so plaine that the Ministers cannot iustly but affirme the same And their starting holes shall be cōuinced by the simple reading of the bookes For all the rest of the Ministers resolution where are mightie iniuries Impostures and slanders against the Doctors they answere nothing hauing regard to the Ministers manner of dealing And the Doctors also do well vnderstand that it should be lost labour to teach the Ministers who more esteem their owne particular reuelation for their whole instruction then all the doctrine and remonstrance of the Church vniuersall and all Christians together And freely do the Doctors pardon all the iniuries they haue done them as people voyd of sound sence and without iudgement which thing they declare by theyr maner of dealing An obiection of the Supper by the Doctors against the answere of the Ministers WHy the Doctors in the beginning of the conferences haue not touched the Article of the Supper it sufficiently appeareth by the first dayes Acts. And a deceit it is which the Ministers haue done in taxing them to haue recoyled from entering into that matter For it shall be proued as well by the offers which the Doctors haue often made to confer by word for quicker dispatch of the said matter and then at more leisure to put it in writing which the Ministers haue refused as also by the first obiections which the Doctors proposed touching the article of Gods omnipotencie wherby they touched the foundations vpon which are builded the errors of the pretended reformed religion against
particular faithfull man should be aswell the pillar of truth as the vniuersal church Moreouer in making of particular reuelatiō of like waight with the iudgement of the church they plainly contradict the 4. article of their confession of faith where it is thus written We acknowledge those bookes to be canonicall and very certaine rules of our faith not so much by the common consent and agreement of the Church as by the testimonie and inward perswasion of the holy Ghost which maketh vs to discerne them frō other Ecclesiasticall bookes By the said article men may see how much more they attribute to themselues then to all the vniuersall church Which article they now contradict attributing as much to the one as to the other And also in their confessiō of faith lastly printed the said article hath been taken away as is seene by that which De Spina hath now brought hither imprinted at Geneua 1564. Whereby it appeareth that they be retracted as confessing that it behoueth to rest more vpon the common cōsent of the church thē vpon any particular mās iudgemēt Which thing is very reasonable seeing the holy Ghost is promised to the church vniuersall not to euery particular person Answere If men may esteeme the Ministers fantasticke although they haue the word of God more shall the Doctors bee holden for such in things they maintaine and defend without and contrarie to the word of God Touching the second point where the Doctors reproach the Ministers that they doo doubt as it seemeth by their answere of the assistance of the spirit of God to the church The answer is that that is not the doubt but to know which is the true Church And touching the third point whereof say the Doctors might bee inferred that particular persons could not erre The consequence is naught for as much as the spirite of God may sometimes depart from particular persons and in this case they may faile and erre as Dauid confesseth to haue happened to him To the fourth point the Ministers do answere that they no way contradict the alledged Article of their confession for that comparison is made in the answere of two reuelations of the holy Ghost the one made to the bodie and the other to the members which they maintaine to bee of like waight touching the certaintie thereof And in the confession mention is made of the reuelation of GOD his spirite which is the cause of the Churches consent which doth follow as the effect thereof Now so it is that the cause being preferred before his effect there is great reason that the reuelation of God his spirit compared with the consent of his Church be preferred vnto it as the cause to the effect which it produceth And touching the contrarietie which they pretend to happen in the confessions printed at diuers times and by diuers Printers they shall bee answered when it shall please them to debate the Articles particularly Obiection Where they set foorth the doubt they haue of the true Church as much men may say of pretended reuelations of God his spirit vnto particular persons Of whom likewise it may bee doubted whether they bee members of the Church For the other point where they denie that they contradict the fourth article of their confession it seemeth in shew that there is contradiction for as much as they compare the particular reuelatiō with the consent of the church as by their answere appeareth Also that which is alledged that reuelation is cause of consent to preferre it to that as the cause to the effect seemeth to serue to small purpose for it is as if one shuld say that the reuelation is to be preferred to the word of God and the holy scripture For very certaine it is that reuelation goeth before the word and scripture And as it appeareth in the text of the Confession as euery one may easily iudge the authors thereof speake of the certaintie and infallibilitie of two reuelations as holding themselues more assured of that they haue in their owne spirit then that which is of the iudgement of the Church And touching an other point where it is said that particular persons may sometimes faile when the holy Ghost doth leaue them By that wee may conclude that wee must not infallibly rest on the pretended inspirations of particular persons because we may doubt of them whether they be destitute of God his spirit or no which cannot be done of the Church Wherefore more sure it is to stay vpon the Church infallably gouerned by the holy Ghost then vpon priuate pretended inspirations And so do the Catholikes therein neuer following their priuate iudgement and therefore cannot be esteemed phantasticke But rather those which preferre their proper iudgement which they shrowde with the title of particular inspiration The Doctors require one text of the scripture by the which the holy Ghost is promised vnto euery one in particular as it is to the Church vniuersall to know and iudge and discerne which are the scriptures Answere Touching the first point As indeed they approue not all Churches to be true Churches which say they be so So do they not also approue them all faithful who boast themselues to be so For the second point the comparison of the Doctors is not proper which thus they haue made as who should say that reuelation is to bee preferred to the word of God c. Forasmuch as the word of God all the writings aswell of the Prophets as of the Apostles are as much of the reuelations of the Spirit of God that no more difference there is betweene the one and the other then is betweene Genus and Species And touching that which is added in this article that the reuelation precedeth the Scripture It behooueth to distinguish betweene the reuelations made to the Prophets before they put them in writing and those which haue beene made to them that read their writings for the vnderstanding of them Touching the first we confesse they goe before the Scripture And touching the second wee say that they follow the same For the third article the Ministers doo answere that it is easie to iudge whether the Spirit of God assist a particular person or whether it bee withdrawne by the things which he proposeth when they bee reduced to the word of God and censured by the rules which are there proposed vnto vs as is sayde Touching the demand it should bee too tedious a thing to alledge all the places where it is written That the Spirit of God is communicated to the particular members of the Church onely let them see in the 1. Cor. 2. where expresly it is said that the Spirite of God is communicated to the chosen to know and discerne the things which bee of God And in Esay 55. the Lord doth promise to shed his Spirite vpon the faithfull as water vpon the earth And in Ioel likewise the second and Ieremie 34. And the 1. Epistle of Saint Iohn
doctrine and why also it is called the Apostles Creed or whether it is because each of them added his part and portion therevnto or else whether it be because it is a marke and certaine ensigne of Christian Religion And as touching the same that it is a thing indifferent to saluation in as much as it hath alwaies one waight and authoritie be it that the Apostles haue written it or that it hath beene faithfully gathered out of theyr writings So haue also the Creeds as well of Nice as of Athanasius whereof the Church hath neuer doubted but that they containe a pure Apostolike doctrine as shee hath euidently declared in ordaining that the said Nicen Creede should bee publikely proposed and published to the people on the dayes of theyr assembly to communicate which at this day is yet obserued in the Church of Rome where that Creed is read or sung euery Sabaoth in their Churches And did it not containe Apostolike doctrine it should withstand the 59. Article of the Councell of Laodicia in which it is forbidden to read in the Church any thing proposed of priuate inuention but onely the doctrine comprised in the Canonicall bookes of the old and new Testament the number whereof is there made The Ministers say further that the reason and principall motiue of the faith which Christians giue to the Creed is the knowledge they haue that it is the pure word of God and him that teacheth it do they also maintaine to bee the word of God as may appeare by that which S. Paul writeth who after he had proposed to the Corinthians the death buriall and resurrection of Iesus Christ which be the chiefe articles of the Creed and those vpon which principally iustification is grounded addeth these words That hee deliuered vnto them that which he receiued to wit that Christ died for our sinnes according to the scriptures and that he was afterwards buried and that he arose againe the third day according to the scriptures Iesus Christ also proposing his death and resurrection to the two Disciples alledged to them the scriptures thereby to assure them saying O fooles and slowe of heart to beleeue all that the Prophets haue spoken ought not Christ to haue suffered these things and to enter into his glorie And hee began at Moyses and the Prophets and interpreted vnto them in all the scriptures the things that were written of him In the selfe-same Chapter appearing after his resurrection euen before the Creed was made proposing vnto them his death and resurrection to assure them thereof hee alledged vnto them the scriptures saying It is thus written and thus it behoued Christ to suffer and rise againe from the dead the third day Whence may be inferred that for the foundation of faith and assurance of the articles of the same there is no better means then to propose the scriptures And although in the time of the birth of the Church the Creed was proposed to those that were Catechised before the Apostles and Euangelists had put any thing in writing it followeth not therefore that there were no other scriptures wherevpon euery article of the faith might be builded And to decsare the same particularly The article of the creation hath it foundation vpon the beginning of Genesis The article of the almightinesse of God hath it foundation vpon the 40. Chapter of Esay and diuers other places of the scripture The article of the conception of Iesus Christ vpon the 7. Chapter of Esay For the place of his birth vpon the 5. of Micheas and in respect of the time vpon the 49. of Genesis and the 9. of Daniel The article of the death and of the Crosse vpon the 22. Psalme 53. Chapter of Esay and 9. of Daniel The article of the Resurrection vpon the 16. Psalme The article of the Ascention vpon the 68. Psalme The article of the iudgement in Daniel 12. The article of the sending of the holy Ghost in Ioel 2. The article of the Church Esay 2. and Micheas 4. The article of the remissiof sinnes vpon the 32. Psalme and 37. of Ezec. The article of the resurrecton of the flesh and life eternall in Daniel the 12. By this discourse and places of scripture quoted it may appeare to euery man that there were cleare and euident scriptures to ground all the articles of the faith vpon before the Creed was put in writing and that men might ought to alledge them to those that were catechised to assure them of that which was proposed vnto them to be beleeued And it is not possible that a man can beleeue that hath not first heard and vnderstood the Word and that is not assured thereof and holdeth it as certaine and more also were it possible then things conceiued and comprised by Mathematicall demonstration as it appeareth by the definition of faith when the Apostle calleth it Hypostasin elenchon That is to say the euidence of things which are not seene The Ministers do adde that it implyeth a contradiction to call the Creed a doctrine not written and yet to affirme that the Apostles haue written it And they cannot shewe how long it was an vnwritten doctrine and at what time it began to be written And the Ministers are much displeased in that they which conferre with them doo not more propose the edification as well of those that bee present at this Conference as of others which may see and read the Acts thereof For where as they might handle and decide points tending to edification of the simple they stay on proposing and handling some things whereof they no way doubt which is as much as to proue a thing confessed and resolued on and to light a candle at noone-day And they assure themselues that they which shal read the acts of this Conference will not at all bee abashed because they decline to treat of that point whereof they be so oft required for that as Iesus Christ saith he that doth euill fleeth the light For conclusion the Ministers do protest to confesse and beleeue that the Creed of the Apostles in euery article therof is the pure word of God and in the faith wherof it behoueth euery faithfull man to stay and petseuere vnto the end So that they would no way receiue nor approue the man in their Churches that should denie or ought doubted of the said articles Reply The Doctors will proue that the doctrine of the Ministers containeth points contrarie to the principall articles of the Creed The first is against the article of the Almightinesse of God when as they say and teach that God cannot cause one body to be in two places The second is against the article of the creation when as they say that God not onely permitteth euil and sinne to be done but also himselfe doth it The third is that one while they denie and an other while they confesse for an article of faith that the Virgin Marie remaineth a Virgin after
naturall proprietie of a body can make a great and thicke body to passe in a space and place vnequall to it greatnesse largenesse and thicknesse The Doctors cyted what our Lord saith in the 19. of S. Mathew It is easier for a Cable to goe through the eye of a needle then for a rich man to enter into the kingdome of heauen Two things haue the Ministers answered vnto the one that in the translation wee must not vse Cable but rather Camel although neuertheles their own French Bible of Anthony Rebulls impression which they haue brought containeth the translation of this word Cable And Caluin himself likewise in his Hermony of the foure Euangelists saith that to bee better But here in appeareth to be truth what Tertullian against the Valentinians and before him Ireneus in his first booke and 14. Chapter against the Valentinians doo say That they which seperate themselues from vs to go to an other schoole do alwaies inuent some new thing that the disciples may bee found more cunning then their Maisters But well this word Camell beeing yeelded vnto them as the Doctors doubt not to haue bene expounded by Saint Hillary S. Ierom and others the reason thereof is yet more strong For it is yet more repugnant that a crooked grosse and great Camell then a Cable should enter through the eye of a needle The other reason giuen by the Ministers is that God cannot make a Camel or Cable to enter throgh the eye of a needle which is notwithstanding against the pure word of Iesus Christ who saith not it is is impossible to God but rather easie to do that and by comparison more easie vnto God then to make a rich man to enter into the kingdome of heauen which neuerthelesse is said by our Lord to be possible not vnto men but vnto God to whom there is nothing vnpossible Whervpō the Doctors say thus If God can do that which is more difficult he can doo that which is more easie Now by the text of the scripture it is said that God can make a rich man enter into the kingdome of heauen which is the more difficult he can therfore make a Camell or Cable to enter through the eye of a needle which is more easie The answeres of the Ministers here aboue confuted tend to such absurdities and blasphemies that Iesus Christ by his almightinesse could not enter through the closed doores that hee could not come forth of the belly of his mother through her body without fraction that he could not make a visible body to be inuisible that a grosse and great body might be in a place vnequall to it that hee could not by his diuine power make penetration of dimensions and that he could not make by the same diuine power one body to bee in two places for it is like reason of the last article and of the others albeit such things are declared in the scriptures not onely to be possible but euen the most part of them to haue bene done And the Doctors do wonder how the Ministers dare denie such things seeing themselues must necessarily confesse if their doctrine of the Supper be true that the body of Iesus Christ is in diuers places which they proue thus The faithfull really receiue in their soules the substance of the body and bloud of Iesus Christ by the working of the holy Ghost and not the bread and the wine onely or else as saith Caluin in the 4 booke 17. Chapter and 11. section of his Institution the effect and vertue of the same Sacrament Now the Doctors conclude thus It is impossible for a man to receiue into him the substance of the body of Iesus Christ but the body of Iesus Christ is in him But all the faithfull in the Supper do receiue the same into their soules therefore must the body of Iesus Christ be in them and by consequent in diuers places to wit in all places where their Supper is made and likewise in heauen They say further that Caluin in his Institution the fourtth booke 17. Chapter and 24. sect saith That in the Supper the power of God is required to the ende that the flesh of Iesus Christ may pierce euen vnto vs and that humane nature cannot comprehend the same But it behoueth that the power of God doo worke therein And by this meane Caluin doth admit by the power of God the flesh of Iesus Christ in many places to wit in heauen and in vs into whom it must pierce by the power of God And in the tenth number he saith That the truth signified and represented by the signes must bee represented and exhibited in the same place where the signes be Which hee proueth by reason in many places to wit that the signes must no more bee voyd then the Doue was voyd of the holy Ghost But as the essence and substance of the holy Ghost was conioyned and present with the Doue so the flesh and bloud of our Lord before there be a true Sacrament must be conioyned and vnited with the signes The passages are against Heshusius and in his booke of the Supper and vpon the first of the 11. Chapter to the Corinthians And although the Ministers will answere the Doctors beseech them well to weigh and consider the text of Caluin and of the reason he giueth of the holy Ghost They doo obiect further that the Ministers in their Supper doo attribute more to the humane power then to the omnipotencie of God yea they do more then God can do which is that they brag to do a thing by their faith which implyeth contradiction saying in their confession of faith exhibited to the Bishops in the congregatiō at Poissy That faith maketh things absent to be present in one selfe-same instant and place That is to say in the soules of the faithfull when they celebrate their Supper which is as much to say as faith maketh things not present present at one selfe-same instant and place So that to euery faithfull in the Supper comming worthily therevnto is the body of Iesus Christ there present by the power of faith And neuerthelesse it is not there present for they say so and that it is onely in heauen Wherein appeareth that there is implication of contradiction to wit present not really present And the small starting hole they told vs of that the body is aboue corporally and spiritually in the Supper in the harts of the faithfull can serue for nothing For the spiritualtie cannot take away the substance of the thing and their faith cannot make a body not to be a body and that a body haue not it dimensions as heretofore they haue said Therefore howsoeuer they confesse that the faithfull in the Supper receiue into their soules the substance of the body of Iesus Christ will they or nill they must they necessarily confesse that either their faith is more mightie then the infinite vertue and power of God or else that God can make
his body to be locally in heauen and Sacramentally really neuerthelesse and substantially in the Sacrament of the Aultar Thus would the Doctors desire to heare the Ministers vpon this point and then afterwards to put their answere in writing And the Ministers shall neuer be able to shewe by the word of God that their faith can make at one instant and one selfe-same place a thing to be present and not present And one thing present and not present by faith is as much to say as that the body of Iesus Christ is in and not in a faithfull person And no Coduit pipe of the power of the holy Ghost should there also be needfull to conuey the flesh of Iesus Christ hither vnto vs from heauen were not the said flesh but in heauen and notwithstanding came vnto vs. And as touching the points obiected by the Doctors that Peter Martyr and Theodoret Beza were the first which said that God could not make one body to bee in two places and the Ministers haue willed to confirme by antiquitie this new doctrine which they cannot name otherwise then blasphemie The Doctors say they haue often prayed the Ministers that time might be spared things better cleared to speake nothing from the purpose Notwithstanding they bring forthwith the testimonies of Fathers to shewe that a body by nature is circumscript and cannot be naturally in many places but those Authors say not that God cannot do it But S. Augustine and others in the places cyted by the Doctors touching the article of the closed doores do rather witnesse that two bodies by the power of God may occupie one selfe-same place which is of like difficultie And when they shall come to the proofe of the reall presence of the body and bloud of Iesus Christ they will euidently shewe that wholly all the auncient Fathers which haue spoken of that Sacrament haue not onely confessed that hee could make his body to bee aboue in heauen and here belowe in the Sacrament but all with one accord haue declared that they beleeue according to the word of Iesus Christ that he is in heauen and here in the Sacrament The Doctors demaund of the Ministers whether they haue any that before Peter Martyr and Theodor Beza denied such power of God And let them no more set foorth the authorities of the Fathers to prooue that one body is not naturally in two places The Doctors doo not maruell if the Ministers do magnifie Peter Martyr from whom they haue taken all the places they haue brought Concerning the Article which beginneth Touching that which the Doctors pretend that the forme c. The Doctors say that this forme is common as often as men will debate of the power of God And they cannot be better guided to proue it then to follow the words of the Angel That there is nothing impossible to God From the which when a man will except something hee will alwaies bring what the Ministers do bring that there is some repugnancy of things whereof ensueth some implication of contradiction As did the olde heretiques against the flesh of Iesus Christ who brought alwayes some impossibilitie according to nature And as much did they against the Article of the Resurrection and incarnation as though there had bene contradiction that God should be man and man should be God And it shall be alwayes easie for an euil spirit to forge some contradiction in his conceit according to the proprieties of nature And concerning the Article beginning As touching that which the Doctors do adde that God can change c. The Doctors say that the Ministers haue not wel conceiued their meaning for they take for an absurd thing that a substance remaining affected of his qualities can by the power of God haue effects contrary to his qualities As if God by his omnipotencie could not make the fire hauing his naturall heate to coole in stead of burning which none of sound and Christian iudgement will deny Concerning the Article beginning Touching the limitation of the power c. The Doctors say that it seemeth by the Ministers answere that the power of God is limited according to his will as much to say as God cannot doo but what he will which is notoriously false For the Hebrew alledged the Ministers it seemeth are willing to shew they are skilfull therin For such summoning is not to the purpose when as they stay chiefly vpon the word Dauar which is as much to say as one thing But it ought not to bee vnderstood of a thing done they said to be done And such is the sence of the place ad verbum Shall there be any thing hidden from me And because hard things are hidden things impossible also are yet more hidden Behold why they haue translated Is there any thing hard or impossible to mee Which holy Pagninus and other Interpreters of the Hebrew tongue do wel declare that the verbe Pala signifieth to hide The Doctors had no desire to answer herevnto but to make it bee vnderstood that an Hebrew word doth not appaule them Cōcerning the article beginning Touching the danger c. The Doctors say that they are words superfluous and whatsoeuer the Ministers can bring the same may other vse and retort against the said Ministers And where they say it is a slaunder in that they obiect vnto them that they corrupt the scripture the Doctors say that the Ministers cannot denie but they change the sence glose the words of the Supper This is my body This is my bloud And with like authoritie as they vnder pretence of I know not what reasons may each one pretend to corrupt the other scriptures alledge some impossibilities contradictiōs of nature As touching the article beginning To that which they adde that the scripture saith that the body c. The Doctors do say that in time and place they will shewe what they haue obiected when as they shall treate more amply of the Sacrament of the Aultar Where the Doctors haue obiected that the Ministers do not ground their affirmation to wit that God cannot make one body to be in two places vpon the expresse testimonie of the scripture or can thereof deduct the same The Ministers for all places haue onely brought but these that God cannot lye God cannot denie himselfe But the Doctors say that this consequence is nought worth God cannot lye God cannot therefore make one body to be in two places which neuerthelesse the Ministers should haue made such had the places produced serued to that purpose Ioyned that when it is said God cannot lye as the Ministers themselues haue cyted to be able to lye is not power but infirmitie So that according to the true sense it was meet so to say God is not weake that he can lye Therfore God cannot make one bodie to be in two places which consequence should be ridiculous And where the Ministers haue brought certaine authorities of the auncient Fathers to proue
Sed sitā abrupte in praesumptiombus nostris hac sententia vtamur quid vis de Deo confingere poterimus quasi fecerit quia facere potuerit Non autem quia omnia potest facere idioque credendū est illū fecisse etiā quod non fecerit sed an fecerit requirendū Potuit ita saluus sum Deus pennis hominē ad volandū instruxisse quod miluis praestitit non tamen quia potuit statim fecit potuit praxeam omnes pariter haeriticos statim extinxisse non tamē quia potuit extinxit Oportebat enim miluos esse haereticos oportebat patrem crucifigi Hac ratione erit aliquid deo dificile id scilicet quod non fecerit non quia potuerit sed quia noluerit Etenim posse velle est non posse nolle Nothing is vnpossible to God who knoweth not this And things vnpossible to mē are possible to God who is ignorant hereof And God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise Therefore say the heretikes namely the Monarchians it was not hard for God himself to make both the Father and the sonne against the prescribed forme in humane things For the barren to bring foorth against nature as also a Virgin was nothing hard vnto God Truly for God there is nothing too hard But if in our presumption we so abruptly vse this sentence wee may faigne euerie thing to be of God as though hee will do because he can doo We must not beleeue because hee can doo all things that therefore hee hath done what he hath not done but wee must seeke if hee haue done it God could I am sure haue formed man to flye with wings as he hath appointed the kytes he hath not forthwith done it because he could He could presently cut off both Praxea and likewise all heretikes together yet hath he not therefore because he could For it behoued there should be both kytes and heretikes It behoued also the Father to be crucified By this reason shall something be too hard for God namely that which he will not do not because hee cannot but because he will not For to be able is to will and not to be able is not to will By which text it is easily seene that according to Tertullian God can do many things which he will not do as he can make a man to flye and doth it not destroy heretikes neuerthelesse he destroyeth them not because he will not all that he may doo And touching the conclusion which the Ministers draw from the said place of Tertullian to wit that the power of God is his will and his weakenesse is likewise his vnwillingnesse The Ministers shewe that they haue not well examined the vnderstanding of that place For Tertullian of his owne iudgement saith it not so should he haue concluded against what hee had said before but hee inferreth the same against the Monarchian heretikes which said That what God could he would do and it was done And for this reason Tertullian concludeth against them that it behoued whatsoeuer God had not done was to him hard and impossible So that after these heretikes it was all one to be done and to haue power to do it And not to be done as much as to be impossible to God And hereof inferreth Tertullian would follow that the power and the will and the act of God should be all one And contrariwise that a thing not to be done and to be impossible for God to do it should be all one and so the power of God and his wil all one And his weaknesse his vnwillingnesse be likewise all one Which Tertullian concludeth for an absurd thing proceeding from the opinion of the said Monarchians heretikes and not of his owne iudgement which was altogether contrarie Wherein it appeareth that the opinion of the Ministers is like to that of the Monarchian heretikes refuted by Tertullian And that the Ministers maintaine such an opinion it is euident by that which is contained in the fift blasphemie The Doctors for conclusion against the said blasphemies do shewe that God can do much more then he will do and then he hath established in the order of the world For otherwise other blasphemies would yet ensue namely that the power of God should not be infinite but limited Also that all things of necessitie should bee done in this world because God could not but maintaine the established order in the world Which Caluin himselfe detesteth saying That God of his omnipotencie changeth and altereth the order established as seemeth best vnto him and that otherwise to thinke were to limit his power and prouidence Where the Ministers say in their said former article that the auncient Doctors of the Church haue denied the omnipotencie of God it is a manifest falshood and they wrong them greatly For denie it they doo not but interpret the scripture which seemeth to denie it and giue to vnderstand how it ought to be taken So that so farre off is it that by this scripture well vnderstood exception may bee giuen against the omnipotencie of God that contrariwise the same is confirmed as saith Saint Augustine in the fift booke and tenth Chapter of the Citie of God The power of God saith hee is nothing diminished although it bee said that hee cannot die nor bee deceiued for such things he cannot do because that could he do them his power should thereby be lessened And concludeth that such things which be of infirmitie he cannot do beccause he is almightie The Ministers in the end of the first article vse deceit towards the Doctors in that they affirme theyr difference to be because the Doctors maintaine that a body is in many places for as much as God can so cause it to bee and that the Ministers on the other part hold that it is not in the power of God to do it because hee will not doo it The Doctors doo shewe that they for their part neuer so concluded for truth that one true body was in two places because God could so cause it but that the question was onely to knowe whether God could doo it to come afterwards by order to proue by scripture that hee would doo it And they haue alreadie heretofore cyted the scripture of the Supper and Ascention And further added the doctrine of Caluin touching the said Supper to shewe that the will of God is to make one body to be in two places as indeed it is according to the expresse word of God Moreouer to this selfe-same end the Doctors haue produced the scriptures of the closed doores of the birth of our Lord and of the resurrection through the stone which are made like and by the same reason to that of a body in many places The Ministers on the contrary part to denie the wil of God and depraue the holy scriptures which declareth the will of God to be such that one body be in
two places alledge nothing more instantly then the impossibilitie for God to doo this Now to the end that all the world may vnderstand the present difference betweene the Doctors and Ministers the Doctors declare that no other difference there hath beene hitherto touching this article then to know whether it be in the power of God to make one body to be in two places at one selfe-same instant or no. And for the second article the Doctors say that the Ministers answere not to the purpose for the obiection was not whether quantitie were an accident of a Mathematicall body Aut de praedicamento quantitatis as speaketh the Philosophers but to know whether it were of the essence and of necessitie to the quantitie of a body to be circumscript and in one piace inclosed And as touching S. Augustine by the Ministers alledged he speaketh expresly according to the proprieties of the diuine and humane natures And wel saith that the diuine is in all places but not the humane because of it naturall proprietie it requireth a place certaine And of this make the Doctors no doubt according to the said naturall proprietie But the question is to wit whether aboue nature by the omnipotencie of God he cannot cause one body to be without place proportionable to it greatnesse Which S. Augustine speaking de Ianuis clausis not hauing regard to the nature of things but to the power of God plainly confesseth And the Doctors would desire the Ministers to alledge this Epistle of S. Augustine against the doctrine of Caluin and his Ministers for the descent of the soule of Iesus Christ into hell as often as they alledge the passage of the place of bodies against the power of God touching the body of Iesus Christ in the Sacrament In the 3. article the Ministers are deceiued For after the sayings of the Philosophers and according to the naturall reason of a body which the Ministers do follow Locus est superficies Corporis continentis Place is the ouermost part of a containing body Wherfore it should behoue that were the high and last heauen circumscript of place there should be a body aboue the high and first heauen A quo primum Caelum contineretur Et sic in infinitum Of which the first heauen should be coÌ„tained And so infinit And moreouer the Ministers answer not to the other obiectioÌ„s made theÌ„ vpoÌ„ this article And as touching the passages of scripture which they alledge to proue that there are toomthes places aboue all the heauens they captiously conclude and 〈◊〉 with doubtfulnesse of the name of place For in all their 〈◊〉 of the dimensions of bodies which they haue said 〈◊〉 to require roomth and place equall and 〈…〉 their bignesse it is meete they vnderstand 〈…〉 roomthes and places euen as the dimensions and of 〈◊〉 do require the same And now when they speake of place◠〈…〉 meet they vnderstand theÌ„ others then 〈…〉 be not such roomthes places as these wherein 〈…〉 now are but incomprehensible and vnimaginable places where bodies and spirits indifferently are without distinction for their greatnesse of certaine spaces and places corporall And in such places the Ministers rule is false by which they maintaine that a body cannot be in one place if it bee not as spacious as the greatnesse of the body Moreouer the Doctors say that it is the manner of heretikes to interpret the scriptures spiritually when they are litterally to bee taken and contrariwise to expound according to the letter that which spiritually and by figure ought to bee vnderstood As the Ministers doo expound the house of Cod in the other world litterally and corporally wherein there are spaces and corporall habitations diuers and seperate one from an other albeit it ought to bee spiritually vnderstood for the diuersitie of degrees of blessednesse The said Doctors cannot omit a manifest contradiction of the Ministers in this selfe-same article wherein they preâ—end that the bodies and soules of the blessed are lodged aboue all the heauens And yet they place the body of Iesus Christ within the heauen And touching the alledged article condemned by the facultie of diuinitie at Paris the Doctors answere that the Ministers do ordinarily alledge authorities pared or euilly applied For the Article saith that the Bishop of Paris hauing called the Facultie condemned all those which would place two distinct heauens one for the Angels the other for the soules of men Which nothing pertaineth to the present question The Ministers in the fourth article do charge the Doctors who neuer attribute the proprietie of God to any creature but haue often heretofore said that to bee euerie where and incircumscript was not naturall to any creatures but to God alone And the Authors by the Ministers alledged as Saint Basil Didimus and Vigilius speake no otherwise theÌ„ of the proprietie of nature to be euery where or not And yet they neuer denie but it is in Gods power to cause one creature or body aboue it nature to be in two or many places but as aforesaid when they come to the power of God many of the olde authors confesse that it is possible with God and that hee hath done the same in the Sacrament the answere of the Ministers is therefore to no purpose For the whole contention is of the power of God and not of naturall proprieties The Ministers in the fift article haue not well conceiued the reason of the Doctors who alledge that the Angels are naturally circumscript as well as bodies and hereby would inferre that the circumscription of place simply depended not as of the sole and essentiall cause of the dimensions of a body as by all their said reasons the Ministers pretend Albeit the Doctors are not ignorant that to put difference betweene the corporall and spirituall creatures they haue accustomed to distinguish in schooles that the Angels Sunt diffinitiue in loco and the bodies Circumscriptiue In the sixt article to satisfie the Doctors who made instance they should produce one onely place of the auncient Fathers where it was said that it is not in Gods power to make one body to be in two places The Ministers for all the testimonies they could haue do falsly alledge a place of S. Augustine where it is said as it is cyted in Gratian De consecra distinct 2. C. prima quidem that the said Saint Augustine hath written that it behoued the body of Iesus to be in one place wherevnto say the Doctors that it is not so couched in the proper text of S. Augustine which is in the 30. tract vpon Saint Iohn For such is the tenour in all the auncient copies of S. Augustine Corpus domini in quo resurrexit vno loco esse potest veritas eius vbique diffusa est The body of the Lord in which he rose againe may be in one place his truth is shead into euerie place Where is not this word Oportet as the Ministers cyte it hauing taken the
interpret that two bodies to pierce one an other is no other thing then one body to giue place to the other Of which false and licencious interpretation the common phrase of speech among Philosophers themselues doth condemne them And the feat example brought of them which walke through the aire beating vpon them and of Birdes when they flye is ouer subtill And whereas they boast in the said article that in denying that two bodies may be in one place by the omnipotencie of God or one bodie in two places they aduance and magnifie the power of God As true is that as when in all their other errors by which they resist the truth of God and blaspheme him they euer boast to aduance the glorie of God And the Ministers must paint and couer their filthinesse and deformitie with some colour of speech to blinde the simple and ignorant Good reason also haue the Ministers not to excuse the interpretations of Caluin and Beza as too too friuolous and ridiculous and preferre in the meane time their owne interpretation though more ridiculous then those of their Maisters wherein appeareth the concorde betweene the Maisters and Disciples all vsing one foundation of their religion which is to trust alwayes to their owne particular and priuate interpretation and inspiration and to preferre the same to all others Where the Ministers say that the bodie of our Lord was not inuisible to the Disciples of whoÌ„ mention is made in the 24. of Luke but that his bodie only being nimble he suddainly withdrew himselfe the Doctors obiect that the suddaine departing whereof speaketh S. Ambrose and Lyra maketh not but that the bodie was inuisible as signifieth the Greeke word Aphantos which signifieth not a suddaine departure but an incapacitie to be seene and knowne And so the text of the scripture is plainly for the Doctors Ioyned neuerthelesse that when the olde and late Diuines wil giue examples that Iesus was made inuisible they ordinarily alledge this passage The Ministers also who boast that they rest vpon nothing but the pure word of God for exposition of scripture bring their dreames aboue their owne perswasion as touching the closed doores appeareth And with like libertie vse they to expound the text of Saint Paul which expresly maintaineth that our Lord pierced the heauens And it is likely say they that the heauens claue a sunder and were opened And if one demaund whence they learned such an interpretation they answere from the word of God founded vpon their inward inspiration by which they appropriate that which is written in Saint Mathew that heauens were opened when the Doue descended vpon our Lord. As though all the heauens were clest asunder and the holy Ghost had not power to descend without the opening of them not nothing that the scripture in many places taketh heauen for the ayre Concerning that they alledge of S. Stephen who when he was stoned sawe the heauens open more meete it were for the Ministers to interpret such visions to bee made in spirit as there is great likelyhood else should it behoue to confesse two myracles the one in the diuision of the heauens the other in this that the sight of S. Stephen not onely pierced vnto but also aboue the heauens where the Ministers confesse the body of Iesus Christ to bee at the right hand of the Father whom Saint Stephen sawe which is against the order of God established in the wold whereby it is necessarie that there be a certaine distance betweene the eye seeing and the thing which is seene And no lesse hard is it that such thing bee done then that two bodies should pierce one an other Nor must they forget that the scriptures oftentimes in spirituall apparitions and visions vseth this phrase of speech that the heauens were opened and yet in such case was there but a spirituall vision and likewise but a spirituall opening And euen as the Ministers will take the rigour of the word the opening of the heauens so should they not thinke it straunge if the Doctors with like rigour take the piercing of the heauens especially in the article of the Ascention where the question is of the bodie of Iesus Christ which had alreadie pierced more impenitrable bodies then the heauens And the Doctors to auoyd tediousnesse referre themselues to more ample debating this point of the piercing of the heauen hereafter As touching the 28. article where the Ministers against expresse scripture do obstinately defend that God cannot by his power make a Camell or Cable to passe through the eye of a needle the Doctors cannot sufficiently maâ—uel either at the blindnesse of the Ministers which seeme to see nothing at noone-day or at their obstinacie and boldnesse And that the Ministers vnderstand not their fault the Doctors cannot thinke but that impugning the truth well knowne to themselues they sinne against their owne conscience And God suffereth that it seemeth to happen vnto them in this so manifest a place and text of the scripture to the end that by this article one may perceiue how much more bold they are to giue false sences to scriptures more obscure then this and to the sayings of the auncient Christians which make against them Now that the great wrong may be vnderstood which the Ministers doo in denying that our Lord can cause a Camell or Cable to passe through the eye of a needle the Doctors do obiect that it should be impossible with God to saue a rich man vsing such argument taken from the text of the Gospell More impossible or hard is it for God to saue a rich man then to make a Camell or Cable to passe through the eye of a needle But God by his omnipotencie cannot make after the Ministers a Camell or Cable to passe through the eye of a needle Therefore God by his omnipotencie cannot cause a rich man to be saued and enter into the kingdome of heauen The Maior is of the scripture The Minor is confessed by the Ministers and the consequence is necessarie And according to all Philosophie hee that cannot doo a more easie thing cannot doo a thing more hard So also without contradiction haue the Auncients expounded the present scripture as doth Origen in the Homily vpon this place saying that it is possible for a Camell to enter through the eye of a needle yet not possible with men but with God And the manner how such thing may bee done is knowne of God and his sonne Iesus Christ and of him to whom hee shall reueale it Semblably Saint Augustine in the first and fift Chapter of his booke of the spirite and letter thus speaketh to Marcellinus whom hee wrote vnto It seemeth to thee absurd when I say vnto thee that a man may bee without sinne albeit that Christ excepted such a one is not founde Should it seeme absurd vnto thee that a thing may bee done whereof no example can bee shewed Seeing thou doubtest not as I thinke but it neuer happened
iudgements Where the Ministers complaine of the time they haue lost in reading the reasons arguments and allegations touching the closed doores and other articles The Doctors say that in the matter in question the Ministers haue no cause to complaine of ouer-great prolixitie for feare of loosing time And that there is matter sufficient to spend the time withall would they with patience bringing with them good will and all passion excluded examine the testimonies of the Auncients and reasons drawne from the same But the Doctors do wel proue that when there is any thing which presseth the Ministers then set they a good face on the matter and make semblance to haue right on their side Moreouer the Doctors are much amazed how the Ministers are so bold to say that Iustin and all the Auncients haue not placed the myracle of the passage of the doores in the body of Iesus Christ seeing that Iustin expresly proposeth the question how it is possible that a thicke bodie is not hindered to passe through the closed doores In the answere of which question they conclude the same that for as much as such myracle was done in the nature of the body of Iesus Christ the Apostles esteemed it was not a true bodie but a spirite as if the bodie had beene transformed into a spirite which Iustin saith did not happen but that without any chaunge of nature such an operation to passe through the closed doore was giuen to the body of Iesus Christ by the omnipotencie of God and Iustin saith not that any myracle was wrought in the sea when Iesus walked therevpon but that by the almightinesse which was in him he made it walkeable without any chaunge of the nature either of his body or of the sea although that the myracle were in his body which against it nature so walked It is not sufficient to alledge out of S. Hillary that the power of God made passage to the body of our Lord. For he saith not that onely but addeth the manner of the deed to wit that the body passed without change or diminishing of it nature and without hauing any opening But that by the operation of the almightinesse he passed notwithstanding which wrought in his body piercing the shut and closed places Nihil inquit cessit ex solido parietum nothing ceased saith he of the firmnesse of the walles and other like words which he bringeth of which can no other thing be vnderstood but a piercing of many bodies S. Chrisostome expresly disputeth of the body which against it nature passed through the closed doores as through the wombe of the virgin without fraction And he saith not simply that hee knoweth not wherein the worke consisted for he describeth it but he amplifieth the power of the worke and saith that he cannot comprehend the reason and greatnesse thereof for as much as it proceeded from the power of the incomprehensible Cod. Concerning this whole point the Doctors refer them to the reading of the bookes without more debating thereof against the Ministers who think alwayes to abuse the ignorance of those which beleeue thē denying or affirming what they thinke good And it troubleth and grieueth the Doctors that they are constrained to repeate the former reasons so familiarly and clearly deducted But the Ministers euasions so often repeated enforce thē eftsoones to inculeate that which of these articles ought to be beleeued by the common consent of the Fathers The Doctors are abashed at the maner of the Ministers answere who without regard of that hath bene obiected to them say what they please without answering to the arguments of the matter proposed As they do in the article of the byrth of Iesus Christ In the deductiō wherof the Doctors haue brought many testimonies of the Ancients which hold that our Lord as he was also there conceaued myracuculously issued from the wombe of his mother And that the said Fathers did witnesse such byrth to haue bin made without any fraction in the body of the virgin and condemned of heresie all those which held the contrary Which thing the Ministers will yet maintain and for full answere affirme the same relying as they say vpon the scripture and not daring to say openly that to cleaue to their proper sence they reiect the determination of the ancient primitiue Church Which is very cleare notwithstanding by their answere to this article wherein they falsly cyte the scripture as though it contained that in the byrth of our Lord Aperta fuerit vulua virginis The wombe of the virgin was opened And where they say that such an opening repugneth not the corporall virginitie whereof is the question they belye the resolution of the auncient Fathers which haue determined of that deed Whether in the Article of the Resurrection there be but coniectures the reading of the Doctors obiection will witnesse The which they may see that desire to know the truth thereof Where the Ministers do complaine in the end of the article of the Resurrection that the Doctors do wrong and scoffe them the Doctors doubt not but the Ministers are sore troubled that their subtilties and maner of dealing are discouered the which did men well vnderstand they would not suffer themselues so easily as heeretofore to be deceiued The solution which the Ministers pretend to giue because it is not Aphantos autois but Ap'auton is impertinent For howsoeuer it was our Lord was inuisible to his Disciples were it by suddaine vanishing or otherwise the which vanishing in a body present to perfect sight cannot be done except the body be made to them inuisible And howsoeuer it be the Greeke Text beareth inuisible and vnapparant As touching the article of the opening of the heauens the Ministers as they are wont answere not to the purpose For it is not said that the heauens were clouen asunder or opened when he ascended thither as at the baptisme of Iesus Christ and when it is spoken of the vision of S. Stephen But the scripture saith expresly that Iesus Christ pierced the Heauens and not that the Heauens were opened vnto him And the Ministers cannot forbeare to slaunder the Doctors in deprauing the vnderstanding of their writings as is seene in this present answere where the Ministers faineto haue vnderstood in that place of the scripture mencioning Iesus Christ to haue pierced the Heauens that the Doctors by the name of Heauen will haue the ayre to be signified which the Doctors neuer thought but haue oft times sayd that when it mencioneth the opening of the Heauens by the Heauens it vnderstandeth the aire which so ought not to be applyed when our Lorde is sayd to haue pierced the Heauens By such manner of answere do the Ministers thinke to cause the force of the Doctors reason to be forgotten Who said thus If when it is said in the scripture that the Heauens were opened the words ought strictly to be taken and truly to be vnderstood that the heauens were opened It
this present writing Concerning that which the Ministers make question of in the last article of their answere that the Doctors doo call faith a humane worke seeing that it is of God they ought no more to wonder thereat then infinit other truthes which seemeth straunge to them because their doctrine is founded on the grounds of error among which one of the principall is That man hath not free will that man to thinke well will well and doo well worketh not together with God against many places of scripture which setteth downe man co-working with God and for his faith and workes hath of him reward and recompence The which without wandring from the purpose shall more aptly be handled in an other place The Doctors like well that the Ministers do confesse that the anciēt Fathers haue neuer said God could not cause one bodie to be in diuers places which thing is true But the reason which they yeeld why they haue not so sayd is of the Ministers owne forge and inuention It remaineth that they shewe vs so much by the testimony of the Scripture concerning the same For no more is it therein found then in the writings of the Fathers Whereof the said Ministers haue bene oft admonished who say they build all their doctrine vpon the word of God Had the Ministers in the beginning confessed the truth of the Omnipotencie or else had they said that they acknowledged that Iesus Christ could cause his body to be aboue and here belowe in the Sacrament really and truly if he so would than had it bene needlesse to handle these former questions which neuerthelesse are not of small consequence as the Ministers do esteeme them Which thing appeareth by the writings of the Fathers who haue diligently handled these places and strengthened themselues therewith against heretiques But because the Ministers would not agree that God can make one body to be at one selfe-same instant in diuers places And that if the Doctors had begunne to declare his will to haue bene such that he had ordained the body of Iesus Christ should be in Heauen and in the Sacrament The Ministers might haue sayd as they of theyr sect doo say that God hath not willed it because he could not The Doctors had rather first intreate of the Almightinesse then of the will And seeing the matter of the Omnipotencie hath bene sufficitntly tossed they are determined to prooue that Iesus Christ hath willed and ordained that his bodie should bee in diuers places In the probation of which thing when they haue vnderstood the Ministers opinion of that they holde in theyr Churches touching that matter they will enter into the former Conference to the ende that theyr trauell be not in vaine For that they follow not it seemeth to the Doctors that which Caluin and Beza holde concerning the same For which cause say the Doctors that the Ministers abuse the people fayning to teach that which in the reformed Church they haue wontedly done and yet their answere addressed to the Doctors sheweth the contrary In that the Ministers repute themselues happie to endure such reproaches to be esteemed seducers by the Doctors let them remember that all sects may say as much therof as they whether by right or wrong it wil appeare by examination of their doctrine The Doctors resolution touching the article of the Almightinesse of God in regard of foure questions by them propounded to the Ministers which serue to the vnderstanding of the reall presence of the body and blood of Iesus Christ in the Sacrament EVery man which can patiently cōsider by the scriptures beginning at Abraham the Father of the faithfull vnto the last writing of the Apostles shall finde that the well spring of all infidelitie hath ordinarily beene to haue regarde to the proprietie of creatures and common order of nature to contradict doubt of and distrust the word of God For which reason Tertullian and other former Christians sayd well that Phylosophers and they that stayed vpon things naturall were the Fathers of Hereticques because the contemplation of Nature engendered almost all heresies On the contrary side shall one perceiue the almightinesse of God to be proposed by the scriptures as a sharpe sword cutting in peeces all arguments which might come of naturall reasons for a certaine and finall resolution to beleeue whatsoeuer is couched borne by the said word of God albeit impossible incomprehensible to euery creature and faith to be staied on that same power in all doubts which might be offered or proposed All the difficultie which Abraham made vppon the promises of God to him did proceed of certaine impossibilities of nature which he sawe in himselfe and in his wife And it seemeth hee had alwayes regard therevnto vntill God vsed his authoritie and said vnto him I am God all sufficient Is any thing hard to the Lord After this rebuke and remonstrance of God Abraham did then forget all consideration of the proprieties of his nature and laid hold on this shield of faith which is to knowe and to bee fully perswaded that God is almightie to whom nothing is hard or impossible And after that when question was of killing his onely sonne albeit hee had great apparance of contradiction in nature and in the word of God which had beene giuen him to wit that of the seed of that sonne should hee proceed which should giue blessing to all Nations and notwithstanding hee must kill him before hee had any lynage of his bodie issued Neuerthelesse hee made not protestation opposing that contradiction of nature and of the word of GOD to maintaine that that which had beene said and promised vnto him was impossible but hee had recourse to the stay of faith and of the faithfull saieth Saint Paul to the Hebrewes that is to say to the omnipotencie esteeming that God had the meane to make true both the one and the other namely to cause his sonne to die and rise againe to drawe from him afterwards lynage and posteritie although as yet there had beene no example of the resurrection Likewise the consideration of creatures and the order of nature which Moses sawe before him made him fall into Infidelitie And God shewed him his fault in that he would deny him the power long time with flesh to nourish his people because the nature of the wildernes did not afford it and did admonish him to lift vp his spirit to the omnipotency against nature and there to assure his faith Moses said Sixe hundred thousand people there are among whom I am and thou saist I will giue them flesh that they may eate therof a month long Shall the sheepe and beeues be slaine to find them Either shall all the fish of the sea be gathered together for them to suffice them God answered Moses Is the hand of the Lord shortnea thou shalt now see whether my word shall come to passe or no. In like maner as often as one shall reade in the
scriptures that the people or other particular persons fell into vnbeliefe or distrust of Gods helpe and succor he shall know that the cause hath ordinarily bene for staying vpon the nature and disposition of humane things without sufficient apprehension of the power of God And contrariwise to confirme them that this power was set before their eyes diuers examples therof haue heretofore bene brought out of Esay and Ieremy In the new Testament the Virgin hauing regard to the naturall maner of conceauing seemed to doubt of the mean of her conception And she said How shall this thing be seeing I know not man And the Angell answering sayd vnto her Nothing shall bee impossible with God Drawing her backe from the cogitations of naturall proprieties which is the roote of Infidelitie and exhorting her to thinke vpon the Almightinesse of God which is the chiefe stone and rocke wherevpon true Religion is builded Which thing considered The Doctors for their resolution of this conference with the Ministers do say that with good right hath the omnipotency of God very expresly obtained the first place among the articles of the Apostles Creed as being that by which all the other articles of faith and the workes of God aboue nature are belieued and maintained against all contradiction and repugnancy of nature or reason which may be pretended or alledged And without the which any article of faith or any the workes of God surpassing nature and contained in the scriptures could not be defended and maintained against the assaults of malice and depriuation of humane spirit which alwayes tendeth to infidelitie and disobedience towards his God and from his byrth is prompt and subtil to depraue and slaunder his word and commandement By meanes whereof say the Doctors that so much the more ought euery Christian to inforce himself to hold and keep that article entire without suffring any to make any exceptiō therof or to restrain it at his pleasure vnder any pretexts of I know not what repugnancies of creatures which humane spirit proposeth for want of vnderstanding and comprehending the greatnesse of God For the scriptures do euer present vnto vs this omnipotēcy generally without any restraint in regard of creatures or of the workes of God And teacheth vs that the creatures is in his hands as the clayin the hand of the Potter to receiue such change and forme as shall seeme good vnto him without that they can say Why hast thou made or chaunged mee thus Such similitude and words the Prophet Esay Ieremy and S. Paul do vse Moreouer the Doctors say that men must yet lesse be lycensed to limit and bound the foresayd power according to the contradictions which in theyr writings they imagine of the nature wisedome or eternall will of God Seeing that the scripture saith plainly that God can doo more then wee vnderstand and mocketh at them which will entermeddle with the nature wisedome and eternall will of God as though they had bene of counsell with him to know thereby the decisions and ordinances more then his owne word pronounceth thereof And S. Paule in the end constraineth with himselfe euery spirit created to cry out confessing his ignorance of the power wisedome and workes of God Oh the deepnesse of the riches wisedome and knowledge of God how incomprehensible are his iudgements and his wayes past finding out For who is he that hath knowne the minde of the Lord Or who hath bene his Counsailor And an excellent saying of S. Augustine vpō this point is to be noted who in an Epistle Advolusianum saith We confesse that God can doo something the which in searching wee cannot finde As if hee would say to wit if God can doo something albeit in our naturall iudgement wee thinke it impossible wee esteeme it neuerthelesse that it is possible but that the capacitie of our spirit cannot comprehend the same The Doctors say asso that by such libertie and meanes that any will exempt what hee liketh from the power of God vnder colour of some impossibilities of nature or of repugnancie after his owne iudgement to the nature wisedome and will of God each one will studie to faine the like in all matters of faith wherein such causes may bee easily inuented and well disguised And that it is so from the first article of the Creed vnto the last let all the heresies which haue bene there contradicted be from time to time obserued and it will appeare that all haue held this way and method to fight against euery article of faith as impossible to God respecting the impossibilitie of the worke according to nature and some pretended inconueniences against the nature wisedome will and glorie of God The Doctors employ to this effect the two first bookes of Tertullian one whereof is of the incarnation of Iesus Christ and the other against the Marcionists of the resurrection of the flesh In which the Christian reader shall perceiue the like arguments of those Marcionists endeuouring to exempt from the omnipotencie of God the incarnation of our Lord and the resurrectiō of the flesh Then to conclude this point the Doctors do forewarne euery Christian that they adde not ought to the scriptures which speake alwaies without any limitation of the power of GOD towards the creatures and to the ende to praise the infinite power wisedome and eternall will of our Creator and Redeemer and to the end to preserue the closet of Gods secrets from euery shamelesse and impudent person which of his own folly wil make a law not only to mē of heretikes Credendo non credunt To wit that in beleeuing Gods omnipotencie they beleeue it not For after they haue said that no exception is to be put vnto it on the other side they returne to declare that it ought not bee extended to euery thing which humane spi◠t can conceiue And indeed they will not apply vnto it but what seemeth good vnto them and shrowd themselues with the nature wisdome and eternall will of God which to them are vnknowne and incomprehensible as that of the Omnipotencie The Doctors therefore do admonish all men to beware of beeing abused with the words of Caluin and his Ministers but to regard the works which they denie to be in the power of God The Doctors haue proposed to them these foure questions to wit whether God can make one body to be in two places and contrariwise two bodies in one place whether hee can lodge one body in a lesse space then the greatnesse thereof and whether he can make it invisible And such questions haue beene specially chosen because the principall arguments of the pretended reformed Religion against the true presence of the body and bloud of Iesus Christ in the holy Sacrament are founded vpon the same The Doctors beleeue simply as all other things that the foure questions are possible to God and haue proued the same by the infinitenesse of his power by the scriptures which attribute vnto him
there in such an estate that then the graces of God be multiplied increased and more and more confirmed in him So that Circumcision brought not vnto Abraham a new righteousnesse but sealed and ratified that which by the promise was communicated before vnto him Which the faithfull knowing in what degree of vertue they bee yet ought they not to contemne the holy Supper nor any way to abstaine from it when occasion and meanes serue them to be there Considering that they cannot be so promoted nor aduaunced in the knowledge and feare of God and in the faith of his promises that they may not yet growe and profit in what estate soeuer they be by the meanes which God hath therefore left and ordained in his Church And impossible it is for a man hauing true faith in his heart to do otherwise seeing hee hath the commoditie thereof For as much as the nature of faith is not to apprehend the promises of God onely but also to engender and bring forth in the heart of the faithfull a will to obey him and keep his commaundements and ordinances For answere to the first Article which the Doctors propose touching their Masse the Ministers say that the Doctors do openly blaspheme Iesus Christ to authorise with his name and by his example such an abhomination And that they also mocke the Church the world in preaching and writing such Impieties For answere to the second Article of the Masse the Ministers say that there is in the Church no other sacrifice by which men are reconciled to God and which maketh him mercifull and fauourable towards them by appeasing his wrath then that onely and alone which Iesus Christ hath once offered vpō the Crosse to his Father The vertue wherof being eternall to sanctifie all beleeuers and to obtain vnto them for euer remission and abolishment of sinnes there is no need of any other nor that which he hath once offered be euer reiterate For answere to the third Article the Ministers say that they which approue the Masse and other Priesthood then that of Iesus Christ and wil establish for remission of sinnes an other sacrifice then that he himselfe with his body vpon the Crosse offered are Antichrists and abolish as much as in them lyeth all the vertue and fruite of the death sacrifice of the sonne of God For answere to the fourth Article the Ministers do alledge what S. Paul writeth to wit That where remission is there is no more offering for sinne Now so it is that by the death of Iesus Christ remission hath bene obtained for vs as by infinit passages of scripture appeareth It followeth then that there is no more oblation for sin neither in the Masse nor out of the Masse And if there be none for the liuing lesse is there for the dead For answere to the fift the Ministers maintaine that the Communion is of the essence of the Supper as S. Paul sheweth in the first of the Corinthians 10. and 11. Chapters And as it is carried by the Cannon it selfe and other things about the Masse For answere to the sixt the Ministers say three things First that the Popish Masse is no Sacrament then that the body of Iesus Christ is not there And therof conclude that then the bread and wine there remaining ought not to be adored which being creatures cannot be adored but that they which adore them be Idolators For answere to the seuenth and last Article the Ministers say contrary to the Doctors that there is not any thing in the Masse which is not either directly or indirectly contrary to the word of God The Ministers for conclusion admonish the Doctors entreat them not to depart as they haue formerly done out of the bounds of the matter now proposed for disputation To the end that these two points which are now in debate betweene them may be wholly and perfectly decyded to the content and edification of them that shall reade the Acts of this conference Tuesday the 30. of Iuly in the yeare aforesaid A briefe Reply of the Doctors against the last Answer of the Ministers to them sent by my Lord the Duke de Niuernois the first of August about seuen or eight of the clocke in the euening 1566. THe Doctors after their resolution giuen vpon the Artice of Gods Omnipotency were not determined to returne any more therevnto as hauing sufficiently handled that matter But the horrour they haue of the new blasphemies contained in the last writing of the Ministers hath incyted them contrary to their purpose although not to reply at the least to admonish the Ministers and the reader of this present Conference of the said execrable blasphemies which they are constrained to confesse that will not acknowledge the Reall presence of the body of Iesus Christ in the Sacrament of the Aultar but dare therby deny the power of God himself The consideration wherof as the Doctors hope wil not only cōfirme the Catholikes in the faith of the said article but also by Gods assistance wil bring back many which are strayed separating themselues from the Church Catholike whē they shall vnderstand the detestable errors blasphemies which do follow the contradiction of the reall presence of the body and bloud of our Lord in the Sacrament Which also should serue for the conuersion of the Ministers themselues would they without passiō examine the reasons acts which haue bene proposed vnto them touching the power of God and sincerely iudge therof as resisting the holy spirit in stead of acknowledging their errors they are turned to all maner of reproach and iniury against them which of good will would admonish them and haue taxed them that they tended not but to roote them out Which thing the Doctors neuer minded and desire not but the saluation of the Ministers of all those that are seperated from the true Catholike Church Of which their preachings shall beare witnesse wherein they ordinarily exhort the people to pray vnto God for them True it is that they require the extirpatiō of the kingdome of Sathan and the rooting out of all heresies and peruerse doctrine rather by the preaching of Gods word then by all other meanes And they wonder why the Ministers are so pricked against them in their two last answeres seeing they haue giuen them no occasion thereof but haue taken it lightly for no other reason but because the Doctors haue written that many propositions set forth by the Ministers contained blasphemies which they should content themselues to denie or to proue that there are none and leaue the iudgement thereof to the readers without entering into such hotte coller seeing they professe to bee so much mortified patient and modest that albeit one should reproach them they would not reproach againe They should also well remember the faire tytles with which they honour the Catholique doctrine as with the name of superstition Idolatrie impietie abhomination and many other like yea not sparing
the Doctors wel reason of the rigor of Penetrare as the Ministers did of the rigour of Aperire which more often is found in the scripture without signification of the reall opening of the heauens then Penetrare is found in the scripture to signifie a diuision and actuall cutting of the heauens For Aperire Caelos is often found for imaginary and spirituall opening and hardly is Penetrare Caelos euer found for actuall diuision of the heauens And therefore had the Doctors better reason to conclude by the rigour of the verbe Dierchesthai or Penetrare to pierce without actuall diuision of the heauens then the Ministers had to inferre the opening of them by the verbe Aperire The Ministers in the last article obiect to the Doctors that they haue passed ouer some places of scripture by which it appeareth that faith is the worke of God whervnto say the Doctors that in some one of their writings they haue expresly confessed that faith in as much as it is a gift of God it is a worke of God but in as much as he that beleeueth worketh together with God in beleeuing for Nemo credit nisivolēs no man beleeueth vnlesse he be willing it is a humane work And it is not repugnāt one self-same work for diuers causes to be a worke of God and a worke of man And where they say that the auncient Fathers haue said if not in proper yet in equiualent termes that God could not cause one body to be in diuers places that is false And the Ministers neuer haue nor can shewe the same and contradict their last writing For bringing the reason why the Fathers haue not expresly said it It was said they because they neuer thought that such an absurditie would euer fall into the braine of man Which reason ought to haue place for the saying in termes equiualent as in expresse termes sith one selfe-same thing is signified as well by the one as by the other As touching the rest the Ministers neuer answer to the principall point whereof they haue bene so often admonished and they efsoones admonish them should they a thousand times call this saying a repetition to wit that they are required to bring scripture to proue that it repugneth the order established in the world the truth the wisedome omnipotencie and vnchangeable will of God that one body may be in two places which thing they cannot do but they will answere as they are accustomed that is to say nothing Wherein appeareth that their doctrine is not founded vpon Gods word but vpon their owne opinion or particular inspiration which cannot be but of Sathan For it cannot be of the holy Ghost which is against the common consent of the Church vniuersall And vpon the same are also founded the other articles of their religion albeit they disguise them and promise Gods word to euery purpose A short Aduertisement of the Doctors vpon the Ministers Resolution touching the omnipotencie of God THe Doctors are astonied at the fashiō of the Ministers in their words and writings For they themselues from the beginning of the Conference haue neuer had patience to prosecute conclude one onely point without mingling other things therewithall impertinent to the matter in question as shal appeare by the reading of the acts And before their resolution made of the omnipotencie of God they haue heaped vp all the articles which they could remember and throwne one vpon an other without cause or reason Although the Doctors at their request had proposed the Articles of the Supper And after dispute of the omnipotencie of God to make present the body and bloud of Iesus Christ in the holy Sacrament to come orderly to shewe and proue that the will of God hath bene such and that there it is But the Doctors well vnderstand the good custome of all them of the pretended reformed religion which is to spet in the eyes of Christians all the articles of the Religion and theyr inuented filthinesse all on one threed to the end that nought bee determined that all abide in confusion and that the Serpent glide awaye hauing cast his venome Moreouer by obseruation of the Ministers answeres it shall bee seene and knowne that they neuer stay vpon any certaine and the same answere but rather of an act alledged out of the scripture where of euery question they haue giuen therevnto diuers impertinent and sometimes vnsufferable answeres Of which the Doctors do admonish them that can read these Conferences and pray them to haue regard to the same and thereof referre them to their iudgement Furthermore the Doctors admonish the Ministers that they may or ought to knowe that all Sects of our times doo cast before the eyes of those whom they will abuse the same beadroll of Articles which the Ministers in theyr Resolution haue gathered together to get audience against the Church Catholique and to bring in theyr heresies and errors vnder the name of the glorie of GOD. Whereof they boaste to bee defenders as well as the Ministers And therefore are they not so acceptable in theyr opinions and conclusions that the Ministers can pretend any right to exalt the power and glorie of God by such mingling and confounding of all matters together Moreouer the Doctors shewe that they may with better reason retort against the Ministers the conclusiō which they pretend to inferre of the subtiltie and craft of Sathan which is as they write that Sathan vnder faire shewe of pietie glideth like a Serpent into the Church of GOD to put therein disorder and confusion and in the end to assaile God himselfe The Doctors do pray each one to consider in himselfe whether the Ministers purpose be not such by their deductions and generally by the principall points of theyr doctrine For vnder faire pretext to roote out some abuses and errors against the word of the Lord which they falsly studie to perswade the world to bee in the Church Catholique And vnder the shadow to preach that they seeke the aduancement of the name of the same Lord they goe about to spoile God of all his proprieties and perfection albeit they no more declare it then Sathan told his meaning to the first man Furthermore the Ministers abase the merit and efficacie of the bloud of Iesus Christ and open a doore by their doctrine to all vices and sinnes Be it so the Doctors will not repeate what the Ministers haue held concerning the omnipotencie of God because they shall fill their writings therewithall But so it is that in their goodly resolution although they suite it with seemely words that God cannot after them but so much as they please to receiue of his wisdome and will which they disguise after their owne sence when it is found declared in the scripture Against the goodnesse of God they hold that he is the author and worker of euill and of sinne Against his mercie they teach that he neuer pardoneth nor will pardon a man which shall
that a Camell passed through the eye of a needle And yet is it saide that with God such thing is possible By the Ministers answere vnto the 29. article may easily bee seene that they deceiue and abuse their Disciples making them beleeue by faire words and writings that they really receiue in the Supper the true body of Iesus Christ the same which issued from the belly of the Virgin and was fastned vpon the Crosse for the restauration of mankind And wil make them to vnderstand that they who place not with the bread and wine in the Sacrament as they call it of the Supper but some spirituall effect onely as are the redemption righteousnesse sanctification life eternall and other gifts and benefites which Iesus Christ bringeth to his elect diminish the excellencie and dignitie of the same Sacrament and that they be Zuinglians But that besides such spirituall effects one must beleeue that hee receiueth truly the body of Iesus Christ in the Supper They hold neuerthelesse an other opinion For when they are pressed with arguments and cannot defend such an imaginarie and phantastike presence they confesse by their writings they are become Zuinglians and returne to the spirituall presence of Iesus Christ in the Supper which is as much to say as besides the bread and wine they receiue a certaine spirituall effect and not really the body as the Ministers do in the present answere which thing they make manifest by that they cyte of the Apostle S. Paul by which citation may bee gathered what is their opinion concerning the Supper to wit that the body of our Lord Iesus Christ is not really but by spirituall effect onely in the hearts of the faithfull For the Galathians by the hearing of S. Pauls preaching receiued not really the body of Christ crucified but had onely an imagination of the Crosse and passion of Iesus Christ and receiued onely the fruite of their faith that is to say by this meanes they were iustified and sanctified before God also the allegation which the Ministers make of S. Ciprian tendeth to this ende to shewe that in the Supper are receiued some spirituall effects onely which neuerthelesse by these words to embrace the Crosse of Iesus Christ to sucke his bloud c. be allegorically signified Wherein they denie against the intent of S. Ciprian in the Sermon of the Supper the reall prefence of the body of Iesus Christ The Doctors confesse that the argument they haue made is addressed to Caluinists and not to Zuinglians And they supposed that the Ministers would not otherwise haue thought of this Sacrament then Caluin Beza and the other Ministers renowmed to be Ministers of the Caluinist Church which they call reformed An other maner of speech vsed they which exhibited the confession touching that Sacrament to the Bishops at Poissy who freely confessed the body of Iesus Christ to bee really present in that Sacrament which the Ministers in conference with the Doctors do now denie And hereby the Ministers in the iudgement of the Doctors of Caluenists become Almanists Wherewithall they that maintaine the doctrine of the Church which they call reformed will not be greatly pleased seeing their principall pillars for not being able to answere an argument obiected by the Doctors do leaue them in the businesse considering that in the answer they say themselues to be so much enlightned with the holy spirit which maketh them vnderstand know all things Concerninig the article following they doo openly declare what their present opinion is touching the presence of the body of Iesus Christ in the Sacrament by saying that the faithfull receiue no more in this time of the Gospell then did the Fathers before and vnder the lawe But certaine it is that the Fathers receiued not really the body of Iesus Christ which as then was not made Therefore the conclusion must follow that vnder the Gospell the body of Iesus Christ is not really receiued in the Sacrament which the Ministers call the Sacrament of the Supper To the 31. article they answere not as also they neuer could answere the same and they must necessarily confesse that in the power of their faith they do that which implyeth contradiction For they maintaine one thing to be present and not present at one selfe-same time and place And their spirituall or rather phantasticke presence maketh nothing to the purpose For according to their doctrine the body cannot be present but with it measures locally difinitiuely and corporally otherwise the body should be wholly abrogate and corrupted And the maner of it beeing there spiritually would not make that the body is not there or otherwise they falsly say it is present in the Supper and abuse the world Wherefore it is necessarie if the body be there yea spiritually and their doctrine of the nature of a body be true that the body of Iesus Christ be corporally difinitiuely and locally in the Supper Moreouer for as much as it is absent according to their confession it followeth that it is not there present And to conclude the Ministers say that it is there and not there And for the full solution without entering into the principall of the Argument they suppose to escape by obiecting to the Doctors some words of the breuiarie which the Doctors haue not yet seene The Ministers they thinke haue found them in some breuiarie of Monkes and remember when they were in the Couent that they were so accustomed to sing and say But although such things were found in the breuiaries vsed in the Romane Church such maner of speech might be defended in the sence which the Fathers haue giuen whē they said that the Apostles Conficiūt corpus Christi do make the body of Christ as the scripture it selfe saith that they baptise forgiue sinnes and saue those whom they conuerted which is meant as the Ministers of God Who of his owne authoritie and as Maister baptiseth forgiueth sinnes and iustifieth the faithfull persons Where the Ministers do maruell that the Doctors call faith a humane vertue the great and maruellous effects it worketh considered the Doctors say that the Ministers haue no great cause to maruell thereat seeing that euerie worke in as much as it is in man and that he therein worketh together with God is iudged and reputed humane Also the scripture calleth the faith of man the worke of man The Doctors shewe vnto the Ministers that after their wonted maner they dwell alwaies on small things and leaue that which is principall in the matter being ignorant or dissembling ignorance where lyeth the difficultie of that is handled As they do in their answere vpon the argument proposed by the Doctors whereby they obiect that the Ministers by their faith call they it diuine or humane may doo more then God can do wherevnto the Ministers without touching the point do answere with songs In the 32. article the Ministers lightly passe ouer many obiectious made them by the Doctors Whether there bee
superfluitie or repetition in them or whether they be impertinent let the reader iudge But for this cause the Doctors will not cease to require eftsoones the Ministers that they bring some passage of the scripture to ground that God cannot make one body to be in two places seeing that this consequence is ouerfoolish and ridiculous God cannot lye Therefore can he not make one bodie to be in two places For so should they make their assumption Now God hath said and ordained that one body cannot be in two places therefore can he not make it so to be But neuer will they instruct by the truth of the Assumption or Minor Proposition the contrarie whereof hath bene sufficiently verified by many testimonies of the scripture The Doctors also require the Ministers to produce some Father yea some man euer reputed Catholique which hath dared to pronounce that God could not make one body to be in two places For full answere the said Ministers can bring forth none which euer hath vsed such a speech except S. Augustine but by them falsly alledged both touching the letter the sence of the letter The Doctors will not cease to beate both into the Ministers and also all persons that there is no place of scripture found nor booke of any auncient Father that God cannot make one body to be in diuers places Concerning the last article the Doctors haue resolued to shewe by the pure and expresse word of God expounded by common consent of all antiquitie that our Lord did institute the Sacrament and sacrifice of the Aultar and will teach the effect and vertue of the Masse according to the institution and ordinance of Iesus Christ And will make it also to be vnderstood that the Ministers haue polluted and defiled the Sacrament by Iesus Christ instiruted And that the Supper which the Ministers maintaine is no way the Sacrament but a prophanation of holy things containing execrable blasphemie whereof the whole world ought to haue horror Sunday the 12. of Iuly in the yeare aforesaid The answere of the Ministers to the writing of the Doctors sent to them by my Lord the Duke of Neuers the 22. day of Iuly about fiue of the Clocke in the enening Anno. 1560. THe Ministers before they answere particularly to the obiections and slaunders of the Doctors seeing that each way and causelesse they taxe them for blasphemers haue aduised to tell them in the beginning of theyr answere that to bee wronged by them they hold it not so great an iniurie nor themselues the more blasphemers for being so holden and reputed by them no more then our Lord Iesus Christ because he was so pronounced by Caiphas the high Priest and S. Stâ—phen to whom the like crime was imputed by the enemies of truth And Naboth who was likewise accused to haue blasphemed God and the king albeit he was innocent For it is the manner of all them which hate the truth and the light to blaspheme that which they vnderstand not as thereof write S. Peter and S. Iude and to giue the raines sometimes to their furie so that they shamelesly denie things most apparant and confesse others concerning the same which bee straunge and absurd Which thing is seene to haue befallen the Doctors about the Ministers whom they neither can heare attentiuely nor iudge of rightly And the full end of their purpose it seemeth is to contradict them indifferently in all things and to say without any examination or iudgement that whatsoeuer they produce is blasphemy and lies For the Ministers speaking of the omnipotencie of God according to that they haue learned thereof and is contained in the scriptures haue euer said that God is almightie in as much as he can do without any exception whatsoeuer he will and that there is no power in heauen nor in earth which is able to let alter or in any maner or wise hinder the full effect and perfect execution of his eternall vnchangeable counsailes But neuerthelesse that his omnipotencie must not be stretched without any discretion or distinction to all the things generally which men can conceiue or in their foolish phantasies imagine but to those onely which neither are nor can be contrarie to his iustice to his goodnesse to his wisedome nor consequently to his holy and eternall will wisedome and truth which is and euer shal be to doo all things well and wisely with number waight and measure and without that there is any inequitie disorder or contradiction in whatsoeuer he doth All which things being well vnderstood and considered will discharge the Ministers among all good and iust people from the sâ—aunders which the Doctors impose vpon them and falâ—ly published to make them odious to all the world and stirre vp publike hate against them Wherefore to make their slaunders more like to truth by adding and diminishing they change and alter almost the whole meaning of the Ministers well knowing that otherwise they could neuer haue meane to ground their slaunders nor to giue any colour or likelihood therevnto which thing shall now appeare by the deduction and particular confutation of the pretended blasphemies obiected to the Ministers by the said Doctors First the Doctors accuse the Ministers in that they haue said that the omnipotencie of God ought not to be measured but by the things onely which bee agreeable to his will and are not derogate either to his wisedome his truth his nature nor to the order which hee hath established in the world And to verifie their accusation and slaunder they breake in two this whole sentence and take thereof but the last part onely the which they haue seperated from those going before wherewith it was conioyned expresly by the Ministers the more clearely to expound and shewe how the omnipotencie of God ought to be knowne beleeued and adored of all the world Moreouer they haue not taken nor vnderstood the word Order as doo the Ministers Whereby the Ministers haue willed to signifie the estate and disposition which God by his prouidence and eternall and vnchangeable will hath established conserueth and entertaineth in all things rightly to gouerne and let that no confusion happen in his workes euen as S. Augustine hath defined it in his bookes De Ordine and hee himselfe hath vsed the same in the fift booke of his confessions Which the Doctors not vnderstanding haue reduced that which the Ministers thereof said to the ordinarie and wonted course of nature and to the mouing of creatures which bee in the world And to giue exception to the doctrine aforesaid they obiect the myracles which God doth aboue nature and thereof inferre that God doth and can doo many things against the order by him established and decreed Whervnto the Ministers answer that myracles albeit they be done beyond aboue the ordinary course of nature yet are they not done against the order aforesaid For as much as all things reduced to the prouidence and ordinance of God