Selected quad for the lemma: scripture_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
scripture_n	argument_n	ghost_n	holy_a	2,507	5	4.9711	4	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A08330	A true report of the priuate colloquy betweene M. Smith, aliâs Norrice, and M. VValker held in the presence of two vvorthy knights, and of a few other gentlemen, some Catholikes, some Protestants : with a briefe confutation of the false, and adulterated summe, which M. Walker, pastour of S. Iohn Euangelist in Watling-streete, hath diuulged of the same.	S. N. (Sylvester Norris), 1572-1630.; Walker, George, 1581?-1651.	1624 (1624)	STC 18661; ESTC S461	30,866	65

Church Ergo Other Churches also M. SMITH I deny the Minor The Apostolical Church did not erre in a maine point of Fayth M. WALKER The act of Christs Resurrection from the dead taught in Scripture is a fundamentall point of Fayth The Apostolicall church did erre in it Ergo c. M. SMITH I distinguish the Minor The Apostles erred or rather were ignorant of the act of Christes Resurrection as a matter of fact I graunt the Minor as an Article of faith I deny it for it was indeed a diuine verity a true matter of fact at that tyme yet no article of faith M. WALKER Behold Gentlemen he denyeth the Resurrection to be an Article of faith M. Smiths Companion You wilfully abuse him he denyeth it not absolutly but only for that tyme because it was not then sufficiently promulgated M. WALKER Reach me the Bible I will shew the contrary in expresse words of Scripture So opening the booke he read how some of the Apostles knew not the Scriptures that he must rise from the dead how our Sauiour appeared to the eleauen Apostles and vpbrayded their incredulity and hardnes of hart because they belieued not them who had seene him after he was risen At this Syr William Harington houlding vp his handes sayd Oh I protest I neuer heard any poynt so playnely prooued M. SMITH Proued he hath proued nothing For I graunt the Apostles were slow in belieuing dull in vnderstanding the resurrection of Christ but I say it was not then an article of fayth which they were obliged expressely to belieue because it was not so clearely promulgated and proued vnto them as to bynd them vnder the payne of Heresy or note of Infidelity at that tyme to imbrace A Protestant Gentleman Say you soe Was it not expressely reuealed in Scripture sufficiently promulgated by Christ himself M. SMITH I acknowledge the reuelation of scripture the promulgation of Christ sufficient in themselues yet not in respect of the Apostles capacity for they were yet rude and weake of vnderstanding they had not as yet that inward illustration and light of the holy Ghost those outward motiues and arguments of credibility which did binde them to giue infallible assent to so deep a mystery They assented and belieued that all was true which Christ sayd all true which the Scriptures reuealed concerning his Resurrection yet they knew not whether the sense and meaning of those passages were to be taken truely or enigmatically properly or figuratiuely Of this only were they ignorant and this ignorance proceeded from their imbecillity and weakenesse and not from the insufficiency of holy Scripture The Gentleman satisfied with this M. Walker grauelled with the former answere his reasoning was at an end howbeit his brawling would haue no end for the foresayd distinction held him at such a bay as notwithstanding he bragged much of his dexterity in disputing yet with all his cunning Sophistry he could not so much as frame one argument one Syllogisme or Enthimeme against it But being in a monstrous rage because his pryde could not brooke such a fowle ouerthrowe I thought good to giue way to his chafing fit and so departed with these very wordes VVell well I perceiue my distinction hath choked your argument you are not able to proceed Now after that I arose and walked hard by the other Priest that assisted me explicating the answere that I had giuen sayd M. Smiths Companion It is not much to be meruailed that the Apostles at the first conceaued not aright the Resurrection of Christ for the Apostolicall Church was then in her infancy it was newly raysed not wholy finished begun but not perfected The Euangelicall law was deliuered yet not fully established And can this vndergoe the censure of any other doctrine then sound and orthodoxall Or could M. Walker iustly vaunt of any allegation he brought against M. Smith Then read and detest the arrogant style of an hereticall Impostor who blusheth not to print after his confusion these flourishing wordes M. WALKER M. Smith being put to silence with those proofes the other Priest to make vs this breach fled to another shift and denyed the Apostles to haue byn a Church at that tyme because the Holy Ghost was not yet come downe nor the Euangelicall law reuealed M. SMITH If you were not already returned in open Court for a willfull lyar forger false Prophet and Priest of Baal your wordes might beare some shew of credit but in so much as you are notoriously defamed for such an one I onely intreat the Reader to iudge whether I were silenced or you whether my Companion fled to another shift or defended the answere which I gaue Whether you haue not writhed his wordes to a faulty strayne of purpose to reprooue them For he denyed not the Apostles to haue byn at that tyme a Church nor that the Euangelicall law was reuealed but that it was not promulgated that the Church was not yet perfect or law cōplete For how could it be then fully cōplete when it wanted diuers guiftes and endowments necessary to the entyre complement and perfection therof When it wanted the spirituall comfort and inward Vnction of the Holy Ghost When it wanted her outward promulgation essentially required to the establishmēt of a law When it wanted the guift of tongues most requisit for the conuersion of all Nations When it wāted that vigour or strength of verity of which our Sauiour sayd Tarry in the Citty till you be endued with power from high How then M. Walker how could your conscience serue you to carpe or reprehend that saying of his strengthned and supported by such warrantable proofes To peruert and disorder the whole frame and methode of your owne disputation How could it serue you 1. To charge me with tearming the Apostles ignorance or hardnesse of hart an errour of forgetfulnesse 2. To faygne me to say that the Scriptures had not expressely reuealed how Christ should rise from the dead 3. To faygne that I intreated you to shew it me out of the Ghospell 4. That I persisted still how the Scriptures had not sufficiently reuealed it All most iniurious and hideous lyes Notwithstāding these leasinges of his or selfe-deuised fancyes he mustreth a band of three seuerall probations and graceth the last with the admiratiō or solemne acclamation of one of his Assistantes howbeit it was vsed vpon another occasion Such is euery where the iugling of that vain-glorious Sycophant yet he dischargeth me from the labour of refuting his arguments sith they are nothing else but engines raysed to batter the forts of his owne conceits which neuertheles he suffereth not to fall to the ground without the sound of his fellowes applause praysing himselfe for ouercomming himselfe in such a skirmish in which he is both the assayler and the assayled he the Maister and he the maystered idely conquering and basely conquered both at once Moreouer he reprooueth me for making a strange

sēse betokneth such a breaking as hateth destroyeth quite extinguisheth the thing it crusheth or breaketh a sunder So it signifieth in those very places which M Walker alleadgeth Breake off the golden ear●ngs c. to wit with abolishing with destroying them to that changing them to another vse And much more in Genesis where it is not as he most fraudulently corrupteth it Thou shalt breake off his yoke c. but as the Protestant Translatiō readeth Thou shalt breake his yoke from off thy neck So that Peru● breake is referred to the Yoke as before to the Earings off is added by phrase of speach Likewise the very tearme of yoke declareth how he was to breake it off as a combersome and hatefull burden with dislike and detestation to be eased of the same No such manner of speach is vsuall in the place we handle and the case it selfe is far otherwise For a ma may breake off or interrupt a busines for a tyme which he liketh approoueth and meaneth after when opportunity serueth to prosecute and accomplish Therfore though your English Coppy beareth the sound of a small corruption yet the treachery is great and deprauation most viperous because it taketh away all reference to the demolition redemption and expiation of sinnes by satisfactory workes of Pennance and Almes-deedes which the true meaning of the word enforceth and the Holy Ghost therby intended To conclude if the Hebrew word had bin doubtfull as it is not then the Originalls of Greeke and Latine might haue directed you without seeking a new sense and faygned signification of your owne Syr Edward Harwood and M. Walker Not so for we haue nothing to doe with the Greeke and Latin text they are both corrupted M. SMITH And is not the Hebrew also corrupted especially of late since the addition of the pricks This was the true occasion of excepting against the Hebrew text no other was the exception no other my base estimation or reiection of it Though M. Walker hath so bad a conscience as to misreport them all and so virulent a pen as vpon his owne lying report to accuse me of vanity inconstancy malice and wickednes ioyned with wi●full ignorance But these are mild and modest wordes in respect of other most opprobrious speaches and spitefull tearmes which elswhere flow from the bitternes of his hart to which I now answere once for all The disciple is not aboue his Maister nor the Seruant aboue his Lord If they haue called the Good man of the howse Beelzebub how much more them of his houshold It is no dishonor for me to be reuiled with the seruants of his house if it be no ignominie for M. Walker to be one of their Reuilers Howbeit as soone as he had disgorged those vnciuil tearmes he peremptorily writeth M. WALKER It is the iudgment of all the best learned both Iewish Rabbins and Christians that the pricks vowells accents were from the beginning M. SMITH What Of all the best learned Little is your reading or great is your forgetfulnes for the best learned without exception say the contrary as not only Helias Leuita but Rabbi Dauid Kimki whome Caluin and Beza much commend and diuers other Rabbins are of the same opinion cited by Galatinus who euidētly proueth this point out of their owne writings with whome Genebrard Lindan Sixtus Senensis Arias Montanus and innumerable others accord The wordes of Arias Montanus be these The Grammarians striue about the antiquity and first inuenters of these vowels and pricks and the strife as yet remayneth in debate Some referring this thing to the tyme and industry of Esdras others to the Schoole at Tiberiades famous ●o● the resort and meeting of learned men Howsoeuer thi●●e that is constant and certayne amongst all the inuention o● the vowells pricks not to be of equall standing and antiquity with the Hebrew Consonants Lo then this is constant and certayne amongst all M. WALKER But looke Deuteronomy c. 17. v. 18. and there it is plainly testifi●d that there was a booke of the law called Mishne which signified double because it was the law written in the double forme both with letters and pricks Another Priest M. Smiths Companion You shew your selfe very ignorant for Mishne doth not signifie in that place the Originall Scriptures nor holy Scriptures at all but the deposition or repetition of the Original and prime law conteyned in Exodus Leuiticus and N●meri which are only part of the Scripture called Deuteronomium as S. Athanasius S. Augustine and Theodoretus witnes Now to say that the whole Scripture is called by the name of Mishne is as absurd as to mantayne that the whole Scripture is called Deuteronomy And out of that bare word Mishne to inferre the Scriptures to haue beene primarily writtē with pricks is most ridiculous because euen in the place you cite it is as much distinguished from the first and primary Scripture as a coppy from the original a patterne from the Prototypon and is expounded ioyned with Thorah a doubled or second Law M. WALKER You contradict you● selfe in affirming that Mishne signifieth the doubled law which is the Scripture and yet not the originall Scripture M. Smiths Companion No good Sir It is no more a contradiction to deny Mishne Thorah or Deuteronomy to import the Scripture indeterminately and yet to graunt it to be a part of the Scripture then to deny you to be a true Minister of Christ and yet to graunt you to be a Minister for Mickra indeed is the common word by which the Iewes expresse the Scripture M. WALKER I answere that the Scripture hath diuers names it is called Thorah Chethab Mickra and Mishne M. Smiths Companion Are not you ashamed after the labour of so many months study to write so impertinently for Thorah signifieth only part of the Scripture or Pentateuch Chethab any writing as Esther 8. v. 8. the kings letter is called Chethab as for Mishne you alledge no text or testimony to prooue that it betokeneth the Scripture But see Pagnine and you shal find that the word neuer expresseth any Scripture at all but with the word Thorah as Mishne Thorah it betokeneth a repetition or second law as Deutero 17. 18. Iosue 8. 20. But where Thorah is left out it signifieth only the second Looke Esther 10. 3. 4. Reg. 22. v. 14. ibid. c. 23. v. 4. and so M. Walker bewrayeth his little skill in Rabbins who though he flourisheth in his writing with the muster of some of theyr names and Commentaries yet he could not remember at the meeting to cite any one of their authorities M. SMITH Thus you see M. Walker how you wil be alwayes flinching from the matter though you be still beaten backe to your owne shame and confusion To returne therfore from whence we are digressed If the Greek and Latin be adulterated in the former place of Daniel the Hebrew is alike corrupted because Peruc properly

second Principle presupposeth that Faith must not only be infallible but whole also and entire Witnes S. Athanasius in the beginning of his Creed Whosoeuer doth not beleiue the Catholike faith wholy i●uiolably he shall vndoubtedly perish And S. Leo A great safeguard is faith entire true faith in which nothing can be added by any nothing de●racted because vnlesse fayth be one it is no fayth the Apostle auerring One Lord One fayth To which purpose our Sauiour himself auoucheth He that beleiueth not shall be condemned that is he that beleiueth not euery Article expresly or implicitely he that beleiueth not the whole summe of Christian doctrine shall incurre the forfaiture of his saluation For as all thinges are to be obserued whatsoeuer Christ commanded so all thinges to be beleiued whatsoeuer he taught and in such manner that albeit the mysteries in themselues are some of lesse some of greater moment some necessary some contingent yet as they are testified reuealed by God they ought all with equall certaintie with the same suretie to be credited imbraced because God in all things little or great necessarie or contingent is equally great of infallible credit Wherby euery Article is so fast riuetted and conioyned one with the other in such vniforme due proportion as they make sayth S. Gregory Nazianzen A Chayne truly golden and soueraigne From which if your withdraw but one you withdraw your saluation as S. Ambrose writeth The third principle is that the ordinary meanes of atteyning the whole and infallible fayth is from the mouth of the Church from the lipps of her Priests because fayth is by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ to wit by the word expounded and preached vnto vs by his lawfull Pastours for it goeth immediatly before How shall they heare without à Preacher and how shall they preach vnlesse they be sent Whervpon it necessarily ensueth that if they be sent from God to teach his heauenly doctrine if we be bound to beleiue vpon their testification and preaching their preaching must be certaine their testification vndeceiuable that we may securely receyue the word they deliuer not as the word of men but as it is indeed the word of God who by their mouthes speaketh by their testimony sealeth and witnesseth it vnto vs especially seeing he commandeth vs to heare them as himself to obey them as his Vicegerents to beleiue them vnder penaltie of damnation seing he giueth them the Holy Ghost to teach them all truth to sanctifie them in veritie that we be not carryed about with any winde of doctrine Therefore as God cannot immediatly by himself or mediatly by any other deliuer that which may be doubtfull or vncertaine so much lesse by the mouth of those his witnesses his iudges his interpreters by whome he vttereth the Oracles of truth as I might more fullie demonstrate if I had not already elswhere vncontrollably euicted and proued the same Yea the very nature and condition of fayth perforce requireth it for that being an assent of our vnderstanding to thinges not appearing that is not appearing true through the euidence of truth in themselues or through the light of humane reason but only by this Authority of God who testifieth them not immediatly but by the meanes of his Church by the true Pastors and expounders of his word if they might vary or fluctuate in the rules they follow of expounding Scripture their expositions were wauering their preaching vncōstant they could neither assuredly teach nor we vndoubtedly giue credit to that which they propose as to constant stable and immoueable truth For it is a warrantable position of M. Whitakers Such as the meanes be such of necessitie must be the interpretation it selfe But the meanes of interpreting obscur● places are vncertaine doubtfull and ambiguous Then it cannot possibly be but that the interpretation it self is vncertaine if vncertaine then may it be false But if it may be false as M. Walker acknowledgeth the interpretation of the Protestants Church may be it ouerthroweth the ground of fayth the foundation of Religion For what els can be or any of his fellowes assig●e on which they stay o● an●ker the certaintie of diuine beleife Their particuler pastor Their priuate spirit But if their Pastours in generall may trip and slumble how much more their particular If the publicke spirit of their Church be errable how deceiuable is their priuate Againe the priuate spirit is hidden it cannot be discouered and opened to others and yet it is open it self to a thousand illusions Therefore it must be tryed by some more known and certaine spirit What then do you build vpō the voice of God that speaketh in the Scripture but that voyce is no other then the bare word or out ward letter of Holy writ of that ariseth our strife and debate That also speaketh most errably to you as your owne contentions and infinite hersies sprung from thence beare euident witnes If your reply that it speaketh inerrably to such a read and heare it with faith and humilitie as they ought you send me still a rouing in the wildernes of vncertaintie for how shall I know who they be that obserue those conditions as they ought And what is this as they ought after your Puritanicall or Caluinian manner Lastly let it be for this wil be your last and poorest refuge that the true Church of IESVS Christ hath alwayes such well known to him what is this to you if you know them not What if we disproue as we plainly doe your Church to be his Where are your humble Readers your faithfull interpreters Or to yield you the vttermost your can aske though most impudently begged at our hands let there be such Readers such Interpreters among you eyther they alwayes infallibly obserue the conditions specified interpreting still a right and then your Church by their direction contrarie to your Tenent can neuer erre Or they fallibly obserue them and so your Church may run astray it cannot be the pillar of faith the storehouse of truth the voyce or trumpet of supernaturall beleife as my last two Syllogismes printed by M. Walker vndeniably conclude which as long as they shall remaine registred in his Pamphlet so long shall it beare the record of his owne disgrace so long shall it proclayme the victorie of our Catholike cause so long shall the Protestant Church lie panting in the dust without life without strength without vitall breath Now let vs behold what new life M. Walker can breath into it to reuiue it againe Marry that a true Christian Church may erre for a tyme in some one fundamentall poynt necessarie to saluation he disputeth thus M. WALKER That which the auncient Apostolicall Church might doe other succeeding Churches may doe with the same successe But the Apostolicall Church might erre and did erre in a maine poynt and yet haue a true faith and was a true