neither if any manne should ryse from death would they beleue him Or howe did they which had the writings of the Apostles onely when neyther bookes nor commentaries were written of thesame But whereas my Lord Cardinall woulde haue that taken for an Apostolike tradition whiche hathe bene receiued of the church at al times in all places and of al men I see not howe these iii. pointes maie be proued For how great diuersitie shal we find in the bookes of auncient fathers yea and euen in the verye articles of oure faith If these wordes should be weyed at all tymes and of all men wher shall we beginn but at the Apostolike church Who shall be firste in order but onely the Apostles Whose liues and doings are partly faithfully written by Luke and partly gathered out of their owne writinges To be shorte we returne at the last to the first foundatioÌ of the scriptures sith all truthe came from god who coÌmaunded the prophets and Apostles to bee interpreters messengers of oure saluation In the meane time we dooe not reiecte the councels of the fathers as farre as they be confirmed with the testimonies of the holye scripture For them as Austine sayeth the holyâ⦠ghost hath so tempered that it whichâ⦠in some place is obscurely spoken in some other is expressed more plainlye and more at large And that rule chiefly amonges others he geueth wherebâ⦠we may vnderstande the scriptures iâ⦠that booke whiche he wrote of christiaâ⦠doctrine yet there remaineth somâ⦠doubt in this question Some meÌ hauâ⦠thought that the will of God in these thinges whiche pertaine to oure saluation is not fullye declared in those writinges whiche the Prophetes and Apostles haue lefte vnto vs. Whiche doubte if it should take any place what a gap wer ther opened to all mischefe And certes this was the breache by the which Sathan first pearced into the vine yard of the lord to destroy it God truely before the tune of Moyses with visioÌs reuelatioÌs directed his church in like maner yeapostles before thei put theyr doctrine in writiÌg taught yesame by worde of mouth But because the nuÌber of men encreasing their noughtynesse encreased also the lorde would yâ this doctrine shoulde bee contayned in writinges and monumentes Whiche might be vnderstoode and perceiued of al men why so that he might confouÌd the impudence and rashnesse of suche as wil set foorth cloke their dreames with the name of tradition reuelation and custome But if the doctrine of god be written onely in some part to what purpose is this remedy Truely it can not be so Iohn spake of the scriptures when he sayeth that those things which are written are written to that ende that we beleuing them may haue life euerlasting Iohn xx â⦠ââ¦xi whiche he had falslye sayde yf thei themselues had concealed any doctrine necessary to life and saluation But Paule when he declareth the vse of scripture vnder the person of Tymothe teacheth all ministers yf anye thing should haue ben added to the scriptures wuld not haue affirmed that by them the man of god is made perfecte i. Timo. ii d. xvi Neither do we denye but yâ at all times there haue ben somtraditions of the apostles which be not written But those were suche as pertained to the ciuil order of the churche But forasmuche as many men haue abused this name this great while I thinke good to shewe what traditions ought to bee counted Apostolike Whiche shall not be hard yf in iudgyng and discernyng them we vse the markes For fyrst we must consyder whether they doe agree with the doctryne of the woorde and then whether they bee apte and meete to edifyâ⦠For it is certayne that the Apostles dyd neuer institute any rites and ordinaunces whiche eyther directly or els in anye parte were contrarye to theyr owne doctryne or myghte withdrawe menne from spirituall worshippyng whereof theyr owne wrytynges beare sufficiente recorde If thys rule be obserued bothe doctrine shall easilye be discerned froÌ traditions also false traditions froÌ the true Neyther are you ignorant how foolishe Tertullian iudgeth their opinions which think that the apostles haue ouerpassed anââ¦thiÌg necessary to saluatioÌ which ether by word of mouth or writiÌgs thei haue not taught but we will adde more hereto Namely that those things which herein the Apostles decreed were not continuall Truelye their instytutions passe all exception yet neuerthelesse by the rule of charitye they yelded somewhat to the weaknes of men As when the eating of suffocatoruÌ and bloud was forbid the Iewes Also those thynges which Paule himselfe taught and obserued in Timothe and his own persoÌ Ac. 15. f. 25. Act. 16. a. â i Co. 16. d. xxix i Co. 11. a 7 Which now truly shuld haue no place but by the generall rule of charitye whereby we are willed in things indiffereÌt to apply our selues to our neighbours Other such like may be gathered of their rytes as of kissing vncouering the head which was the signe of authority and other such lyke whiche at this daye are contrarye to yâ customes of many nations amoÌg whoÌ it would seme most folish the men should kisse the one the other to talke with the heade vncouered is commonly a signe of yâ lowest state and condicion These thinges therefore ought to be considered before anye custome be thought Apostolyke Also no man must grounde vppon the authority of the Apostles to trouble the church As it hapned in the coÌtrouersye of the daye in the which Easter should be kept whiche bred miserable deuision and eueÌ in the Apostles tyme by those that did abuse the authoritie of the churche at IerusaleÌ to myngle Iewishnesse wyth Christian religion Of whom it is writen in the Actes of the Apostles where it was decreed by a councell that no man should lay that yoke on mennes coÌscieÌces Wherby it may easely be perceiued that the Apostles could not be the authoures of so many ceremonies to the which afterwardes Satisfaction merites and remission of sinnes wer attributed For they taught far otherwise And so much they dissented from makyng newe ceremonies that they gaue no place to those of Moses lawe of the whiche God was the author Of thys yoke of traditions obseruances Austine long since writing to Ianuarius much coÌplained if he had liued in our tyme how would he haue lamented theÌ Wherfore to be shorte we desyre that the Scripture whiche herein is playne maye iudge good traditions froÌ euil holy from prophane profitable froÌ hurtful necessarye froÌ superfluous When of these articles we are once agreed this question shall easily be dissolued whether the authoritie of the church be greater thaÌ of the woorde of god which certes is no lesse fonde than if a man should doubte whether the soÌn ought to be aboue his father the wife aboue her husbande or man aboue god And sure neuer the true church or any godly maÌ woulde moue such
a doubt but wil willingly submyt himself to her iudgemeÌt Nether doth it make agaiÌst vs that the church was afore the word For it is most certain that the word which afterwards was put in writing is much more auncient For by it was the church coÌceued born bred But this saying of Austine is not to bee obââ¦ected that he wuld not beleue the scripture vnlesse the autoritie of the scripture moued him therto But we must vnderstand yâ in that place Austine spake of himself as of a Maniche w e whose erroure he was once seduced I pray you if ther rise ani doubt of the truth of any writing to whoÌ go we to trie it but to yâ coÌmoÌ notary to whose custody al writiÌgs monumeÌts are coÌmitted Neyther therfore doth it folow that the autority of the writyng depeÌdeth on the witnes of the notarye For of it self it is true though no mortal maÌ beare witnesse hereof So truely must we answer theÌ which thynk yâ the authoritie of the holy scripture dependeth vpoÌ the coÌstitutioÌs decrees of the church The decrees of of that couÌcels are manye tymes coÌtrary in this question But all these things shal be more fullye opened in disputation consereÌce I wil shewe only reason confirmed with the autority of certayn auncient allowed fathers Christ himself gaue so much authority to the doctrine of the prophets whom he had sent afore that by theyr witnesse he would confirme his doctrine Paul also suffred the ThessaloniaÌs so to do willed theÌ to searche the scriptures to know whether he had taught theÌ truly Ac. xvii c. xi Peter allowed that selfesame reason ii Peter ii d. xix They therfore which boast theÌselnes to be the vicars of Christ the successors of Peter Paule ought not to refuse yesame coÌditioÌ Ca. ix li. ii Truely Ierome vpoÌ Hieremy sayth that nether the error of the fathers nor of our auncesters by the authority of the Scriptures is to be folowed ChrisoftoÌ vpon the .xxiiii. Chapter of Mathew the 49. Homelye erpounding thys place Those that be in Iury let them flye to the mouÌtaynes sayeth that is those that be Christians let theÌ flye to the Scriptures And again Wherefore doth he in this tyme wil al Christians to fly to the Scriptures Bicause in thys tyme since heresy inuaded the churche there can be no other proofe of true Christendome neither any other refuge for Christians minding to knowe the true fayth but the diuine Scriptures For afore it appeared by many signes which was the church of Christ and whiche it of the Gentiles But now whosoeuer wil seke it can by no other meanes discerne which is the true church of Christe but onely by the Scriptures Also he saieth further If a maÌ therfore be wylling to knowe the true church of Christ howe should he know it in so great coÌfusyon but only by the Scriptures Yet further therfore the lord knowiÌg that ther shuld be so great coÌfusioÌ in the latter dayes therfore doth Christ coÌmauÌd the those that be in christianitye such as be willing to streÌgtheÌ theÌselues in ãâã faith ãâã ãâã ââ¦o other thing but the Scriptures Otherwise if they ââ¦pââ¦e any other changes they shal likely â⦠ãâã ââ¦sh not vnderstaÌding which is the true chââ¦rch and so shal they faâ⦠ãâã ãâã ãâã of defolatioÌ which ãâã yâ holy places of the churche ãâã in his moralls writeth thus If whatsoeuer is not of faith is sinne as the Apostle ââ¦ayth and faith commeth by hearing and hearing by the worde of God whatsoeuer is besides Scripture inspired of God is ââ¦n Also in the Sermon of the confession of faith If God be faithful in al his words and hys commaundementes ââ¦me and stable for euer done in truth iustice to reiect any thing that is written or to bring in any thing not written is a sweruing from fayth manifest pride Thus much was spoken of the churche her signes authority and succession afore the Lordes and Bishops and diuerse other which heard thesame very attentiuely But bicause hys oration had bin already somewhat loÌg it semed good then to entreate nothing of the supper Wherfore Beza medestly excusyng hymself declaryng also that we wer ready to shew a reason of that article and as much as lay in vs to satisfy theÌ if they would commaund vs forthwith to doe it When Beza had ended the Cardynal beckned to Spensa to speak and to answere our reasons He protestyng with many woordes that he had long wyshed for this coÌference disputatioÌ that he neuer lyked alwaies contrary to those cruel punishmeÌts which had loÌg tymes bene vsed toward them answered that those thinges were true which we had sayd of the churche her sygnes and succession If we had so taught and spoken at the first we should neuer haue neded to haue come to this controuersy But whereas we spake of the callyng into the churche he muche maruelled by whose authoritye or by what callyng we entred into the churche and toke vpon vs to teache Forasmuch as we wer not instituted by any ordinaryes neyther they at any tyme had layd theyr handes vpon vs. And hereof he gathered yâ we wer no good pastors For by ordinary meanes quoth he you wer not called and muche lesse by extraordinary For extraordinarye vocation must bee proued eyther by miracles as the callyng of Moses was who was raysed vp of God to delyuer his people or els by the witnesse of the scripture as the callyng of Iohn whose vocation is plainlye proued by a terte of Malachye you want bothe Whereof it foloweth that youre ministerye is vnlawfull But as concernyng tradytions and the interpretyng of the scryptures yf there ryse any controuersye we ought to referre it quothe he to the ordinary successours as those to whoÌ the holy ghost is promised and are appoynted of God for the same cause He brought foorth the exaumples of the olde Priestes and Leuites whiche in tymes paste in doubtful matters gaue the people couÌcel to whose iudgemente the people were so bounde to stande that from theyr decree it was not lawfull for them to swarue neyther on the ryghte hande neyther yet on the left And that we had many thinges by tradition whiche no manne doubtes of no not we oure selues As yâ the father is without beginnyng the son equall in substance to him also that yong children ought to be Baptised that Mary was a virgin after her deliuerance such lyke So he affirmed that those thinges which are descended vnto vs from the auncient fathers albeit they bee not written yet are certainelye to be beleued and no lesse to be allowed than if they were confirmed by the authority of the Scriptures That whatsoeuer is decreed by generall councels is certain and that they can not erre in doctrine But as to that which is cyted out of Austine that the first counsels ar amended by the later that he said neuer
for the layiÌg on of haÌds but to proue himself an apostle he did not so much cite his miracles of the which he had great store as yâ fruite of his preachyng the coÌuersioÌ of those people whoÌ the lord had turned at his calling For writing to the CorinthiaÌs he saith You are the seale of my apostleship in that lord Cor. ix Thesame truely say of so gret a nuÌber as by our preching haue receued the gospel agaiÌst al the power of maÌ nether seke we any other coÌfirmatioÌ of our calling ministery For the power vertue of god hath sufficieÌtly shewed it self forasmuch as nether prysoÌ fier banishmeÌt nor death could stay yesame But quoth SpeÌsa shew me but eueÌ one example wtin these .xv. C. yeares like to your case Although quoth Beza al hystories are not writteÌ yet I donbie not but there may be fouÌd som But if ther be none it is no incoÌuenience to say that god in our daies hath done yâ which he neuer did afore Afterwards we cam to traditioÌs which SpeÌsa made equal with that scripture ââ¦aÌtus preferred aboue it as more certain thaÌ it But to the place of Paul which reuoketh vs to yâ scripturs SpeÌsa aÌswerd that Paul speketh generally of doctrine Which forth w e was aÌswered not of vs only but of an other singularly wel learned maÌ which was there preseÌt that it is writeÌ ther ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã Moreouer we said it was new straÌge that XaÌtus wold haue the traditioÌs more certain thaÌ the scripture for yâ by reasoÌ of many interpretatioÌs may be vncertayne For what fouÌdatioÌ shal our faith haue if we doubt of it neither is it therefore incertain bicause many times meÌ misapply it mangle it abuse it For the truthe abides alway one which though it be somtymes darkned yet continueth her force euen to the last Neither bicause heretikes abuse it ought we therefore the lesse to fly to it What wroÌg he doth vs in coÌparing of Anabaptistes other diuelish sectes our writings wel testify They admit onely som part of the Scriptures We accept allow the whole they credit new reuelations We say that suche thynges are out of place sithe Christe hath manifested al things fully vnto vs. As to the place of TertulliaÌ wherof ââ¦antus warned Beza twice or thrice to read it I quoth Beza haue read it more than xx tymes am so well assured that you shall finde it as I saye as I perfectly know that you shal neuer finde in Chrisostom that which you in his name haue falsely alleged But do not deny that Tertullian did manye tymes passe his bondes Neuerthelesse if we coÌsider towhat ende he spake it you shal perceiue how lightly this which you thynke to make so much with you shal be answered For this was his purpose that we should not in vaine reason with heretikes As Paule couÌsaileth vs after the first or seconde admonition to leaue them But what maner of heretikes were those Suche as beig conuicted of their heresy by the worde of god tryfled in vayne What were the traditions whiche he layde against them Such as are conteyned in the writinges of the Apostles and pertayn to the chiefe articles of our fayth and which the whole church professed Fyrst therfore we should haue ben coÌuicted by the same worde that if we be in any erroure we might thereby bee withdrawen from it But to bee confuted by tradition whiche is neither Apostolical nor yet grounded on their writings that truely is asmuch as to opeÌ the gate to all deceite and vtterly to ouerturne the certaintye of oure faith But why doth Tertullian himself vpbrayde the heretikes saying Let them beleue the scriptures if they can do it beleuig agaynst the scriptures except we ought to flye to them and by them confute all errors If these rytes whyche at thys daye our aduersaries haue brought in were Apostolike the churche would alwayes haue vsed them Neither should they haue had so late beginning Now forasmuche as the authors of them are wel knoweÌ described in histories certainly it cannot be said that they came first froÌ the Apostles Falsly also is the name of traditions refrained to those things which are deliuered froÌ hande to hande in as muche as this woorde ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã is referred eueÌ to those things that are writen TertulliaÌ refuteth those that taught that the apostles had not sufficiently instructed vs in al things that thei might leaue a place for new traditioÌs as things reuealed by the holy gost Thei are woÌt to say quoth he that the apostles knew al but neuertheles put not al in writing In both pointes blaming christ as though he had either insufficieÌtly instructed his apostles or els had choseÌ such simple meÌ as were not able to vtter their mindes in writing For what sober maÌ would beleue that the apostles wer ignoraÌt in any thing whoÌ the lord appointed as maisters ⪠c. To the Apostles therfore we must fly whoÌ christ seÌt to preach But how shall we be assured of their doctrine but by their wrytings Was not vnctioÌ geueÌ vnto theÌ for this cause that they might deliuer and write vnto vs al things necessarye for our saluatioÌ not to leaue vs douting or vncertain And herby is that place of Chrisostom easily discussed which was earst aleged where he saith that Christ left nothing in writing to his apostles Wuld he therfore that thei shuld write nothing No sure But therfore he taught them therfore he reueled it vnto them by his spirit that the same doctrine once written might remain for euer But thei taught somââ¦things which are not coÌtained in their writings Neither that truely do we deny But we saie that there is nothing pertaining to our saluation Whyche they haue not left in writing other thiges which coÌcerne rites ciuill dyscypline they might easily teach by worde of mouth But because yesame chaunge according to time place they woulde not buâ⦠then our consciences therwith As to the obiection of the names of vnbegotten consubstaÌtiality trinity baptisme of children although the playne names wordes be not in the scriptures yet the thinges themselues that is to wit the sence and grounde Whereof the names are gathered is playnelye expressed and shewed in the scripture These thinges were long debated and sometymes the talke interrupted Xantus spake muche and affirmed a great while that the virginitie of Mary after her deliuerance coulde not bee proued by the scriptures Neither yet that yong children ought to be baptised Neuerthelesse bothe were proued by the authoritie of the scripture But he ceassed not to bable after the maner of the Sorbonistes as though he shoulde wynne the victorie with triflyng and talking His talke litle liked so honorable anaudience as it that was full of bitternes sharpenesse and stomake Our men in the meane tune modestly stayd themselues And albeit manye of our aduersaries spake at once confusedly
Church is it which is euery where knowen and of all meÌ To the authority of yâ church he sayd al interpretation of Scriptures and making of traditions ought to bee referred Saying that the succession as well of that Church as of the pastours therof was perpetual but of the Lordes Supper he so entreated the touching nothing at al of the chauÌge of the natures of the elements he came very nye to their opinion which ioyne the body bloud of Christ with the elementes And say that they be both vnder them and in them Which afterwardes we vnderstode was done for a polecy partly to procure their fauoure whom he had so kindly clawed and partly to make vs the more hatefull to them Neither yet did he plainly agree with them but shewed that in thys respect he did willingly ioyne with them that they myghte ioyntly warre against vs. The ende of his oration was to this effect That the kyng and his counsell leauing our opinion should folow the steppes of theyr for fathers and not leaue their accustomed vsage When he had ended we desired that presently whiles the memory therof was yet fresh we might satisfye his obiections and refute his argumeÌtes For we feared least after thys the Cardinals answere we should scarcely haue leasure or liberty afterwardes to speake Bicause the day afore many bragged that we shuld loke for nothing els thaÌ condemnation the thuÌderbolt of excomunication Neyther wer we ignorant therof The Queene taking the aduise of her couÌcel coÌmaunded vs to depart saying that we should answere it an other tyme that she would appoint vs a day wheÌ we shuld be preseÌt again And surely meruaile had it ben if the byshops which wer of that couÌcel would haue geueÌ any other councel The next day againe we desired that we might be preseÌtly heard and the tyme no longer proloÌged But we could obtayne nothing neither wer we heard before the eight day In the meane time false rumors were spred abrode that we wer ouercome put to sileÌce had nothyng to say Whereas we were ready to haue answered their oration presently And how false such tales be here by men may sufficiently gesse that the Bishops did what they could to breake of the coÌference so that at the last by their importunity they obteined of the Queene that the matter shuld not be opeÌly heard afore the king but in a more secret place afore few Therfore it was deferred til the .xxiiii. day of that moneth at the whiche coÌmaunded to returne to Poyssye we came before the Quene the king Queen of Nauarre the rest of the Lordes and counsallours there were present also â⦠Cardinalles and many Byshops and diuynes of al sortes we the mynisters were admitted only to the number of xij Those being seuered which wer seÌt froÌ other Churches which afore were ioyned with vs. For now the matter was heard both in narower place in lesse companye than before the Cardynals of lorayne shewed in few wordes that this assemblye was to this end that if we would obiecte any thing agaynst that which he had sayde eyght dayes before we might freely speake shuld be herd Then Beza in the name of vs al said That he would haue wished that immediatlye he might haue aunswered the Cardynalls oration whyles the same was fresh in memorye or at the least that he might haue had som copye therof that he might auÌswere certaynly perfectly to euery poynt but forasmuch as he coulde not obtayne that he woulde aunswere so much as he coulde call to mynde Fyrste there fore as concerning the article of the Churche which the Cardinall fyrste handled he deuided it into thre partes First what it is Then what are the marks therof Thirdly what and how great is the authoritie therof It is wel knoweÌ quoth he that this name Ecclesia which signifieth the church is deriued from the Greeke ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã which signifyeth to call froÌ on place to another Of calling we find .ii. sorts in the scriptures the one coÌioyned with the working of the holy ghost wherof Paul to the Romains writeth whom he called them he iustified Rom. viii c. xxviii The other althoughe in outward shew It be al one with the first yet is altogether vnprofitable to saluation And that only through the fault of man beyng deaffe at the calling of God Of this calling spake the Lorde when he sayde That many wer called but fewe choseÌ Mat. xxii b. xiiii Hereof it happens that the name of the church which signifyeth the congregacion of those that are assembled by the word of god is taken .ii. wayes For generally it contayneth al those which outwardly professe to folowe the calling of god Neyther is it to be doubted but manye hypocrites and reprobate persons are within this nuÌber Neither we thanks be to god therefore haue at any tyme Either written or taught otherwise for asmuch as both the scripture and also common experience doth plainly proue the same but takyng this name of the churche proprely and streyghtlye as manye tymes we doe we then say that it comprehendeth onlye the electe and chosen of god And that al men may know that we be not the authours of this maner of speache or of this doctrine when it is written that the church is the body of Christ bones of his bones fleshe of his fleshe yea when the name of Christ it selfe is geuen vnto it Eph. ii g. xxx as Paule wrytyng to the Corinthians ioyning the members with the heade calleth her Christ i. Cor. xii b. xii xvii how could in the number be contayned the reprobate in as muche as they are the members of the deuill For it cannot bee that we shoulde be members bothe of Christ and of the deuil which Austine writyng agaynste Cresconius well noteth in his seconde booke and xxiiii Chapter He also writyng on the .lxiiii. psalme vsed this distinction of the churche saying yâ that church whiche is signifyed by IerusaleÌ toke her begynnyng of Abel and Babilon of Eain And afterwardes in his fyrst booke of baptysme agaynst the Donatistes the seconde Chapter wheras he taketh the name of the church more largely he saieth that he that begot Abell Enoch Noe Abraham the reste of the Prophetes begot also Cayn Ismaell Dathan and suche lyke Therefore to conclude we muste take that whiche Austine hymselfe wrote in the seuenth boke of the same booke the. 51. chapter whiche is also rehearsed .xxiiii. ix i. a. ca. All thyngs consydred it is said that there are two kynde of men in the churche Some of them sayeth he bee the members of Christe and of the house of God yea the house of GOD it self Other some bee in the house but not of the house For they bee as chaffe with the corne tyll suche tyme as they bee seuered Hereof ryseth a questyon whether the Churche bee inuisible Whiche I thynke good to affyrme and
was in doctrine That there were onely three kept before Austines time ⪠The Nicene councell against the Arrians the councel of Constantinople against the MacedoniaÌs the first counsel of Ephesus against Nestorius none of the which was afterwardes amended He denied the history of Paphuntius as a thyng doubtful to be credited and further sayd that it perteined not to the purpose At the laste to geue the Cardinall occasion which seking by al meanes to breake of the conference willed him to entreate of the supper he came to that question and with few wordes entreated of the presence of the body of Christ in the bred And he red to vs certaine places out of the bokes of Caluine ââ¦aling neuerthelesse the name of the ââ¦tour saying that he ââ¦eruaââ¦led if we would swarue from hym to whom we geue most authoritie aboue the rest about the end of his tale he gaue vs those places to read Afore we answered Spensa a Monk of that order that are clothed all in white whose name they say was Xantus stepped forth enflamed with desire of conteÌtion And as though he were aggrieued that SpeÌsa had talked somwhat grauely and modestly begaÌ to powre out his stomake and not able to stay any loÌger wuld not let vs answer til we had first heard him Then he began to repeate those things which SpeÌsa had already spokeÌ at large sawcig yesame w e scoffes tauntes which he semed to esteme as that greatest ornameÌts grace of his talke For vs he coÌpared both to other auncient heretiââ¦es also to the Anabaptists but at the last he became so mad that abusing the authority of the auÌcieÌt fathers he affirmed that the fouÌdatiâ⦠of yâ traditioÌs is more sure than of the scripture For the scriptures quoth he may by diuers interpretations bee wried sondry waies And that Ciprian with the rest of the Aphricans was deceiued in this that they sayd Christ sayeth not I am that custom But I am the waye truthe and lyfe And that this his saying heretikes dyd afterwardes commonly abuse He alledged the authoritie of Tertullian of the prescriptions of heretikes imperyously euen like a maister of that scooles I will not saye foolyshly willyng Beza to reade the place by hym alledged twice or thrice Tertullians wordes be these They alledge the scriptures and with these their impudence at the fyrst moue awaye Also that the disputation with scriptures nothyng auaileth vnlesse a man do altogether eyther turne his stomake or his brayne And again Therfore we must not appeale to the scriptures neither contend with them by whom there is eyther no victorye to be atchieued or if there be any it is verye vncertain Furthermore XaÌtus said the god otherwise thaÌ he intended for that was his term deliuered his doctryne in writing abusig the autority of Chrisostom or of the author of the imperfecte work writteÌ vpoÌ Mathew And falslye touching the proeme of that work wher ther is no suche thyng red For these bee the wordes of the author After that all the people of the Iewes was falleÌ into the depth of sin it was necessary that then a law shuld be writen the tables geueÌ warning threates by theÌ And this we see hapned not only to the holy meÌ of the olde testameÌt but eueÌ of the new also For Christ left nothing in writyng to hys apostles but in stede of writing promised to geue theÌ the grace of the holy gost He quoth he wil teach you al thinges Then he added also that not onely the word ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã but also ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã ãâã was geuen of god wherof came al traditions Also for the rule to discerne traditions that not only the word but also the nature custom is to be considred Accordyng to the saying of Paule the .i. Corint xi Nature it self teacheth you And again neyther let vs not haue such a custome neyther the exaumples of the church of god to be shorte he rehearsed the same that Spensa had afoââ¦e spoken Hereto Beza aunswered modestly at large that to haue one selfe same tale doubled of diuers is not mete for that conference or disputation wherein any good ende or concorde should be sought For that of muche matter heaped together the witts of man are confounded so as therof no good thing may aryse but confusion That euen by their own iudgementes if they had at any tyme vsed disputatioÌ this order could not be allowed Neuerthelesse he hoped that so farre as his memory would serue hym to reherse their reasons he would lightly satisfy them And therwithal he desired the Queene and the rest of the nobles hereafter to take some better order for their conference First therfore wheras Spensa had sayd that he much meruayled that we toke vpon vs to teache forasmucheas the ordinary successors had neuer layde handes vpon vs he answered that this is not the chiefe signe of lawfull calling For the chiefe and substantiall partes be the inquisition of learning and lyfe and choyse and election These be the ordinary meanes To the which although the outwarde ceremonies of laying on handes be not adioyned yet the ministery is lawful notwithstanding And that we which wer there present to defende our doctrine and the rest of oure felowes waÌted not also the third mark And neded not to stay on that poynte forasmuch as we were both chosen and confirmed For handes were layed vpoÌ vs and we lawfully presented to oure churches which accepted our ministery if it be obiected that those of whom we were instituted and which layed their handes on vs had no autority of the ordinary successors neyther were chosen of the people the answere is ready that thinges being in such confusioÌ and the ecclesiasticall order disordred we dyd not stay for the layeng on of their handes whose vicious lyfe superstition false doctrine we haue alwayes repreheÌded For in vaine should we haue sought to haue bin allowed of them whiche wyth deadly hate pursued that truth the defeÌders therof And that we wanted not the presideÌtes of the Prophetes to whoÌ none were more deadly enemies than the Priestes forasmuch as thei themselues wer turned out of kind no longer respected their office therfore forasmuche as against theÌ chiefly the lord had styrred vp the prophets they ought not to seke for at their hands the confirmatioÌ of that autority which they had receyued of god Nether did they intrude theÌselues into the ministery but wheÌ thei had once the coÌmauÌdemeÌts of god thei wer coÌpelled eueÌ with the peril of theyr liues to execute thesame And that thesame we in these our times ought to do also Furthermore yâ extraordinary calling is not alwaies proued by miracles For that which we read of Moses the signes shewed by him hapned not so in all the rest For by what miracles did Esay Daniel Amos Zachary proue theyr calling Or Paulus afore he did execute his charge Did he stay