word to trust them any more in their quoting or citing of the fathers But lest we should thinke that this was but a slippe of his by chance that hee was not his craftes-master in this kinde of dealing he hath plaide vs the very like trick againe with this same father pa. 18. where he alleadgeth the fourth chapter of the said Irenaeus third booke to iustify their traditions not warranted by the written word For in the beginning of the saide chapter not fiue lines before the wordes cited by him hee speaking of the scriptures written by the Apostles Euāgelists he saith that they into that rich treasury most fully haue brought all things that belōg to truth so that euery one that will may frō thence take the drink of life And that which he speaketh in the words alleaged by him of following of tradition it is spoken only by way of supposition to shew what course had bene best for the Church whē any questiō should haue arisen if they had not left vs scriptures For his words are these if the Apostles had not left vs scriptures must we not haue followed the order of tradition which they gaue to them to whom they committed churches In which case which is not our case nowe seeing they haue left vs scripture we grant we should haue beene in the deciding of all controuersies that could haue arisen ouerruled by that which they deliuered by word of mouth to such and therefore that being the case no better or readier way for the ending of controuersies should there haue been then to haue recourse to the most ancient Churches wherin they were conuersant and so by their tradition to haue learned the certainty therein But thus by way of supposition Irenaeus speaking of their tradition in the case supposed by him certaine it is that by their tradition he vnderstādeth that soūd form of doctrin which they deliuered by their preaching teaching which thē would should haue been the same forasmuch as they spoke wrot by one spirit that now they haue left vs in writing And therefore euē then the Romish Church should haue been as far to seeke as she is now for hauing any warrant from thence for those things that she holdeth either contrary or besides the word written And that by tradition he meaneth here no other thing it is euident for in the first chapter of that booke he saith plainely Quod tum praeconiauerunt postea per Dei voluntatem nobis tradiderunt in scripturis columnam fundamētum fidei futurum that is that which first they preached after by the will of god they deliuered vnto vs in the scriptures to be the piller and ground of faith And in the third chapter of that book hauing before spoken of the Apostolicke tradition he after sheweth what he meant thereby namely this that god the maker of heauen and earth c as he is described in the olde testament the Apostles haue taught to be the father of our Lord Iesus Christ contrary to the phantasticall franticke dreame of Valentinian so plainely shewing that they that would euen by the scriptures themselues might learne what the Apostolick traditiō was Now what is this for the authorishing the vnwritē traditiōs of the Romish church which are not ōly al beside the scriptures but whereof the most are contrary thereūto But this gentle reader is the right trick of all the crue of these Romanists thus by the ambiguity of words out of the fathers to seek to colour their absurd opinions so er thou be a ware to deceaue thee if thou take not heede As for example to perswade a mā to like of their beggerly vnwritten traditiōs whatsoeuer any father speaketh of traditiō though it be neuer so plaine in the author himselfe that thereby he meaneth nothing lesse then such traditions as theirs yet that must be confidently brought in as fit most pregnant for their purpose Likwise whatsoeuer any father hath said of any sacramētall chāge of the outward elements for that therein their name vse estimation are chāged though the same father in a thousād other places shew that his iudgemēt is that there is no change at all there in substance yet that must be quoted as a flat place for Popish trāsubstantiation And euen so if they find in a father speaking of the Eucharist any mention of a sacrifice as though there were no kind of sacrifice but that which they dream to bee there that must be vrged as a strong place to proue their blasphemous sacrifice for the quick the dead And this iugling with the fathers and cosening of their poore simple readers vse they in al their cōtrouersies But at this time thou must pardō this preface writer this fault because herein he doth but study to bee like him before whose book he hath set this his preface For chapter the fifth he himselfe most grosly committeth this same fault in the detection whereof I haue more at large discouered this lewde dealing of theirs In the meane time let vs not forget that Irenaeus hath taught vs what that church is who those pastours be what those traditiōs are that we must obey be ruled by namely onely that Church that hath the scriptures for the piller groūd of her faith lib. 3. cap. 1. those pastours that succeede the Apostles in truth of doctrine li. 4. cap. 43. those traditiōs which haue good warrant from the scriptures themselues lib. 3. cap. 3. whereof it must needes follow that all the places reasons quoted by him either out of the scriptures or fathers to binde vs to yeeld obedience to their churches ordinances their prelates cōmandements to the points warranted onely by their traditions their Church hauing another foundation of her faith then the worde written namely alwaies their popes will as it hath the commādemēts of their prelates traditions being not only beside but also often most grosly contrary to that word of God writtē as I shal shew in sundry places er I haue done with Albine in Irenaeus iudgemēt ar but so many abusings and corruptings of their holy good meanings And yet thus hauing to no purpose bestowed a great deale of idle paines as one that had said inough to proue that the authority of all the learned fathers the cōmon consēt of all Christiā regions prescriptiō of time were al ful fast of his side he lustily braggeth p. 22. that if their be any weight in any or al these together that his side hath the true gospell the true sence thereof That their Religion is the very Christian Religion their order of ceremonies the right order and that their fasting and praying is according to the scriptures and that therefore their church is the lawfull and true spouse of Christ from which who so seperates himselfe is in state of damnation This thus only said thereupō by and by as though there were no
that by the Apostolique tradition he vnderstandeth this same doctrin of God the father which before they wrote the Apostles deliuered vnto the church by liuely voice afterward as it appeareth they set down in writing Is this thē honest dealing in you to make your Reader beleeue that he meant of vnwriten doctrine such as the is for which you we striue seeing he telleth you himselfe that by the Apostolique tradition of the church you are to vnderstād this doctrine of God the father most plainely plentifully writen and set downe in the scriptures You might haue learned of S. Paul 2. Thes 2.15 that the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 tradition may as wel be referred to expresse doctrine in scripture as that which is deliuered by word of mouth where the Apostle as then very litle of the new testamēt being writen and as then therefore the whole Apostolicke doctrine therein not being expressed saith Hold fast brethrē the documēts deliuered you whither by word or by our Epistle But you are the lesse to be blamed the more to be borne withall for this your wilful thus abusing your reader because the making or marring of your church and Religion stādeth vpon vnwriten verities or rather forgeries which you call the Apostolicke or the holy churches traditions For there are few or none of those points of Religiō wherein we differ from you and striue with you about but your owne great champions haue confessed haue their ground from hence and not from the scriptures As any man that will take the paines to reade them may see in Peter Soto against Brentius in the 5. cap. of Canisius catechisme in the 5. booke 100. c. of Lindans panoply where they reckon vp almost all the points in controuersie betwixt them vs in Religion and when they haue done plainely cōfesse the ground thereof to be but tradition And therefore to countenance this onely bulwarke of your church Religion at least with those that either for lacke of leasure or learning cānot examine your quotations it is not your fault here alone but the cōmon fault of you all where you finde any mention in fathers of tradition though it be neuer so euident that thereby they meane nothing beside that which also hath warrant from the word writen to alleadge that place streight to countenance your vnwritē traditiōs To preuēt you therfore hereafter of thus abusing the simple I would wish thē all others to mark how flatly against your vnwritē vnwarāted traditiōs by the writē word the fathers with one consent haue writē for the absolute sufficiēcy of the scriptures Besides that which you heard out of Irenaeus Tertulliā to this purpose Irenaeus saieth further in his fifth book we must run to the Church be brought vp in her bosō nourished with the scriptures of god And Tert against Hermog writeth Let Hermogenes shew that it is writen if it be not writē let him fear that wo that is threatned or appointed to the adders or takers awaie As for Origen we haue heard him tel vs before that our senses and declarations without the witnesse of the scriptures haue no credit in his 1. Hom. vpon Ierem. And great and worthy Athanasius saieth The holy scriptures giuen by diuine inspiration are sufficient to shew the trueth against Idol Hillarie saieth it is wel that we are content with those things that are writen in his third booke of the Trinity Cyrill vpon Iohn in his 12. booke and 68. cap. graunteth indeede that all things that Christ did are not writen but hee saieth those things are writen which the writers thought sufficient both for maners and doctrine Chrysostome writing vpon the 2. to Timothie Homil. 9. saieth If there be anie thing needefull either to learne or to bee ignorant of we shall learne it in the Scriptures and in the commentary vpon Matth. commonly also fathered vpon Chrysostome wee read these golden words They that be in Christianity let them flee to the Scriptures because they can haue no other proofe of Christianity but by the Scriptures To this end read also Chrysostome vpon the 2 to the Thes Hom. 3. Basil also very sharpely writeth that it is a most euident argument of infidelity and a most certaine signe of pride if any man either doe reiect any thing of that which is writen or bring any thing not writen seeing the Lord saieth My sheepe heare my voice and they follow not the voice of a strāger in his treatise of true and godly faith Where also he noteth that Paul Galat. 3. by an example taken from men most vehemently forbiddeth that any thing be put out of the scriptures of God or which God forbid saith he be added thereunto And therefore he in Moral Reg. 26. saieth further Whatsoeuer we say or doe it must be confirmed by the testimony of the Scriptures Where likewise in his 80 rule he gathereth that seeing faith commeth by hearing and hearing by the word of God without doubt whatsoeuer is without the holy scripture seeing it is not of faith must needes be sinne and therefore he addeth in that rule let vs stand to the arbitriment of the scriptures and with whom doctrine is founde consonant thereunto let the sentence of all trueth bee adiudged of their sides Hierome vpon Agge cap. 1. saieth those thinges which of their owne heades they deuise as though they came by Apostolique tradition without the authority and testimonie of the holy Scripture the sword of God striketh who also vpon Math. cap. 23. saieth that which hath not authority frō the scriptures as easily is despised as approued And contra Heluidium he saieth we beleeue it because we reade it and we beleeue it not because we reade it not August against Cresconins the Grammarian in his 2. booke writeth That there is an Ecclesiasticall canon ordained whereunto belong the bookes of the Prophets and Apostles by which bookes we iudge of all other writings both of the faithfull and of the Infidels out of whom already wee haue heard diuerse plaine testimonies to this purpose especially that against Petilian in his 3. booke and 6. cap. set downe in the ende of the confutation of the 3. chap Damascen is as plaine as any of these in his 1 booke of right faith cap. 1. Cuncta quae tradit a sunt c. All thinges saieth hee which are deliuered vs by the Prophets Apostles and Euangelists we embrace wee acknowledge reuerence beyond those seeking no further For all things concerning faith and maners he confesseth are plainelie conteined in the scriptures de doct Christ lib. 2. cap. 9. Infinite such places might be cited out of the ancient fathers for they are full of them whereby it sufficiently appeareth that this was the vniforme and generall iudgement and opinion of them of the sufficiency of the scriptures If therefore in deede and trueth you made any reckoning of their generall consēt as often times you will
ministers either are the authours of any wronge to the Duke of Sauoy or that either they or their followers were the cause of the ciuil warres and troubles in France If the Duke of Sauoy haue any such right to Geneua as you pretend and that it be withholden from him it beeing a ciuil quarrell betwixt him and the states ciuil of those parts why should it be layed to the charge of the ministers who you cannot proue haue had any intermedling therein And as for the troubles in France it appeareth by the stories thereof that they haue proceeded first from your owne side and that the doings of the protestant Princes there haue oftentymes beene iustified euen by the Kings owne edictes and proclamations to haue beene done in all loialty and that their warres haue beene but defensiue against the oppressions offered them contrary both to the ancient lawes and present edictes of the Land by certayne ambitious persons and not offensiue either to the Kings person or dignity And as for your Bishops and Priestes of whose being driuen from their lyuings by our men you complayne so much in some sorte I confesse thorow their occasion indeed they haue beene dispossessed thereof but that seditiously or tumultuously by force they haue beene driuen there from by them we vtterly deny For in most places they haue beene dispossessed thereof by mature deliberation and consideration of the badnes of their titles thereunto in solemne and lawfull assemblyes of the estates of the countries by the lawfull authority of the same estats as namely here with vs in EnglaÌ„d in Scotland and in other kingdomes where the Gospell is receiued and established by publique authority and by the same authority orderly our men whose right thereunto in those assemblyes and Parliamentes haue beene founde to be the better haue beene put into possession thereof And in other places your Bishops and Priestes as not able to stand in the presence of the light of the Gospell when will they nill they they sawe it would take place in their territories forsooke their places and left them to those that had more right thereunto as for example they did in Geneua when the Gospell was first established there And no marueile though vpon the bare preaching of Gods trueth and the entertainment thereof many of your proude Bishops and superstitious Priestes can stand no loÌ„ger in their places For when the Arke of God came in presence Dagon could staÌ„d no longer though his frends set him vp againe neuer so often yea the more they stroue to haue him stand the more dangerous fall got he as you may read 1. Sam. 5. And it cannot be leâ—ted but Christes saying will take place and be verified one time or other Euery plant that my heauenly father hath not planted shall be plucked vp by the rootes Matth. 15.13 whereupon it commeth indeed that the proude prelates of your Antichristian Hierarchie hauing gotteÌ„ vnto themselues titles and offices through the ambitious and fond deuise of mens heads which God neuer allowed to be for his house must needes when God meaneth to reforme his house and to establish his owne orders therein auaunte their roomes and leaue their liuinges for the Lordes true officers and allowed seruantes indeede Blame therefore the badnesse of your foundation and title for leesing of your liuings and nothing else You bid vs shew our euidence that our right to them is better then yours out of the ancient doctours In the meane tyme you apply Tertullians wordes in his booke of Prescription against heretiques against vs and that of Paul How shall they preach vnlesse they bee sent Romans 10. I answere you not onely out of the ancient doctours but out of the Canonicall Scriptures also our ministers long ago haue made euident demonstration vnto the Princes and estates that haue driuen you out of possession and put them in that their title to your liuings was good and yours starke naught in that thereby they proued vnto them their religion to be ancient sound and Apostolique and yours to be but of a later Antichristian stampe though you according to your maner say we cannot deny but that your religion was planted throughout Christendome 1000. yeares before wee were borne which you shall neuer be able to proue true for wee most constantly deny both that antiquity and vniuersality of it And whensoeuer you will wee are ready againe by the same Scriptures and Doctours to proue our right by the same argument to bee good and sound and yours to be of no force come to the triall of it when and as oft as you will And therefore seeing it is a thing most euident that the reason why either you or we should pretend anie right to these or any other liuinges of the Church is that we feede the Church with wholesome and sounde doctrine wee hauing oft proued ours so to be by the grounds aforesaied and you being neuer able to doe the like for yours both Pauls saying and Tertullians must rather take place against you then vs. For I trust you will confesse that there Paul accounteth none sent of God to preach but those that preach the truth and questionles Tertullian vseth those words of his as by the wordes themselues as they are set downe by you it is euident not against those that were able to proue their doctrine sounde by the Apostles writings but against fantasticall heretiques such as had taught and did teach doctrine dissonant from the Scriptures deuised vpon their owne heades Against whom he being to prescribe both by the Scriptures and by the sounde testimony of those that succeeded the Apostles vntill his tyme he might lawfully and to good purpose say what are yee and from whence doe you come c. And truely when any man shall enter into a consideration of the state of the Church in Tertullians tyme both in respect of doctrine and gouernment and on the one side weigh the simplicity of the pastours and teachers then and the agreement that their doctrine had with the writen word and then therewith on the other side compareth the more then princely prelacy and Hierarchie that hath beene these many yeares and yet is in yours ioyned with doctrine not only manifoldly differing but in a number of points directly contrarying the word writen hee shall be enforced to thinke that if Tertullian were aliue againe and sawe notwithstanding how confidently you ruffle as though all were yours and no man had any right to any thing but your selues he would more vehemently vse these words here recited by you against your prelates then euer he did against Marcion Apelles or any other heretique in his time But you are so liberall vnto vs as to tell vs that though wee had commission from God yet he would haue called it backe euen for our noble actes and deedes in driuing you out of possession and taking possession though of our own before the sentence of the iudge was giuen Which you
by the Scripture ill vnderstood for * Mat. 10. 16. our Sauiour doth say that for to be his disciples we must forsake and renounce all that we haue in testimony of the which the first Christians at Ierusalem did sell all their possessions and presented the money of them to the Apostles to giue to the poore And that that is worse the Adamites did maintaine a greater errour then this and more brutish the which is that al mens wiues should be common and they did cal this the true Gospel and the pure word of God alleaging for it the first and eight of Genelis where God doeth say Increase and multiplie and replenish the earth If you doe say that this is a foolish opinion I confesse it to be so but that i This is false that Church condemneth popery for this heresie Zisca Hus and their followers coÌ„demned before you very Church which hath condemned this heresie of theirs doeth likewise condemne yours When the deuill determined to fight with Christ he thought he could no wise aide himselfe so wel as with the holy scripture perswading him that the best way for him to shew himselfe to be the sonne of God was to breake his necke casting himselfe downe from the pinnacle of the Temple And he did alleadge this text saying * Psal 90. as it is writen That the Angels of God should so preserue him that he should not hurt his foote against the stones following that Dauid saied And if I should go about to write al the places of Scripture that the heretikes haue alleaged to maintaine their horrible errours I thinke surely I might make a bigger booke then the Bible The XXIII Chapter YF a O you are your crafts master a man may see in wrong alleaging the Scriptures that the sonne doe hate the father or the father the sonne or if the wife doe hate the husband or the husband the wife they may take the word of God ill vnderstood to defend their cause for he doeth commaunde vs that we shall hate those that are nearest vnto vs as vnder the paine of not entring into Paradise if we doe contrarie But this ought to be vnderstoode that we ought not to prefer the loue of anie creature how neare soeuer they be to vs before the loue of God In like maner he that will saie that we should not eat of the bloud of those beasts that are smoothered he may soone alleadge the scripture for it which doeth saie that at the couÌ„cel that the Apostles held at HierusaleÌ„ beeing present the holie Ghost this ordinance was made as we read in the. 15. Chapter of the Actes And if that one should take in hand to bring al the places of scripture that the heretikes haue alleaged to maintaine their opinions I dare boldlie saie that he shal finde it an endlesse piece of worke For among so great a number of false Prophets there hath bene verie few or almost none but they haue sought to maintaine their opinions by Scripture drawing the places as it were by violence to a depraued and a corrupt sense beeing this the maner of interpreting of the Scriptures called at this daie the pure word of God by those that haue professed to be as long as they liue enemies to the trueth a You should haue saied in his first come 2 booke The learned and auncient Doctour Epiphanius in his first booke against heresies doeth alleage as touching this matter a verie familiar example saying that if some good Caruer had made the image of a king adorned with manie Iewels and precious stones and that another should come afterward and should take the same Iewels and precious stones and make vvith them the image of a Fox or a Dogge and that he should saie beholde here is the Image of a king would not euerie bodie laugh him to scorne and saie that he did it in mockerie or els that he were mad Yes surelie for although they bee the same Iewels and that verie stuffe wherewith was made the Image of the king yet because that this other vvorkeman hath taken them awaie and fashioned them after another sorte it ought no more to bee called the image of a king but the picture of a Fox or a Dogge Euen thus is it vvith the holie Scriptures vvhich were left vs by the Apostles and Prophetes for to paint in rich colours the Image of the great king of glorie b This is euen your owâ—e dealing with the scripture vp downe when you would confirme Popery therewith but seeing that you take those precious stones from the image of this king and doe appropriate them vnto the Image of a Foxe making them serue to cloake your heresies vvithal it ought no more to be called the worde of God nor the holie Scripture but the word of men false doctrine And therefore if you vvill haue it to beare the first name you must set it in the first estate that is to saie c This is certaine and therefore scripture trust interpret scripture and not your Romish spirit that it ought to be interpreted by him that did first indite it It is not by the will of man saieth S. Peter Epist 2. Ca. 1. That the prophecy was brought but by the inspiration of the holy Ghost that holie persons haue spoken c. I know wel that you attribute the intelligence of the scripture vnto your Sinagogue d This we doe not take vpoÌ„ vs. But how shal we beleeue that the holy Ghost doeth dwel more in you theÌ„ in al the vniuersal Church which hath continued froÌ„ the passion of Christ vntil this time I pray doe so much as answere me if you my masters be the lodging of the holie Ghost e Whither our alleaging of theÌ„ agree or not with the holie Ghost it selfe speaking in the scriptures we are contented to let alwaies the true Church of Christ iudge where did he make his residence before ye were borne I know already your answer the which is In the hearts of the faithful And where were those faithful Marie where the holy Ghost was Answer thus stil ye shal be sure that ye shal not be ouertakeÌ„ for it is as good as to play Handie dandie soye shal accomplish the olde Prouerbe the which sayeth It is as farre from Douer to Caleis as from Caleis to Douer But to the ende that all the world maie see the great hazarde of eternal damnation that those run into that are so readie to beleeue euerie bodie thinking that they are assured of their health forasmuch as those that seduce them saie behold there is the scripture it is the pure word of God the verie gospel I wil set forth some heresies that haue beene in times past condemned by the catholicke Church the which notwithstaÌ„ding haue bene a This you can neuer doe aswel yea more largelie confirmed by Scripture then you can confirme anie of yours
to escape this 1000. more such contrarieties betwixt your doctrin and the reueiled wil of God in the scriptures but by subtle sophistrie fonde quiddities and distinctions deuised of your owne heades without all warrant and ground frō thēce which in matters and questions of diuinity is intollerable These and such like contrarieties betwixt the doctrine of your Popes and Prelates and the trueth taught in the scriptures we hauing oft obserued and tolde them of and yet finding them most obstinatly to persist in the same hath caused vs rather in respect of their hereticall doctrine to call them wolues thē in respect of their negligence onely heretiques And for this same cause seeing all yours are thus infected you wish vs in vaine to ioyne some of the best of them with some of the best of ours to reforme things amisse in both For there is no hope of any good reformation at all where any such as yours haue any thing to doe therein And seeing it is and hath beene so cōmon a thing with vs as you cannot be ignorant if you haue reade anie of our bookes writen against you to denie that you continue in the doctrine which was preached vnto you at the first yea seeing you all know that we count your synagogue Antichristian for her manifold Apostasies from the ancient doctrine of Christ and his Apostles taught first vnto the Romans I wonder with what face or forehead you could write as you do in the cōclusion of this Chapter that we our selues cannot denie if we will confesse the trueth but that you haue continued in the doctrine that was first preached vnto you And therefore not onely for your lewdnes of life and negligent sheepherds bad sheepe doeth your kingdome decay as you would insinuate but especially for this also that in the points we striue with you about you are quite gone from the ancient sound Catholique faith and religion first taught by Christ and his Apostles and receiued and continued many yeares in the ancient Roman church others The only way therefore for you is to preuēt an vtter vniuersall subuersion and confusion first to returne againe from your new Antichristian Religiō doctrine to the true ancient Catholique faith taught in the scriptures and thē to amend your maners according to the direction of the same The XXXVII Chapter ALL our ancient doctours a This is but an arrogant false brag as we are able to proue come to particulars when you will as well of the Greeke as of the Latine church since the Apostles time and the Christians of all the foure quarters of the world which were in those daies b Christians haue alwaies vowed and promised lawful thinges onely to God they haue had a care to make those vowes and promises discreetly of such things as they saw he had made possible vnto thē which things are neglected in the vowes that I feare you most mean haue made their promises and vowes vnto God euen as we doe now and at their baptisme they did vse euen those verie ceremonies that we doe with the selfesame exorcismes adiurations and annoyntings that we doe vse in our Catholique church which you call Papisticall and to proue this true we will bring the saied ancient doctours as witnesses if it please you to reade the c Neuer man had worse hap in quoting so few places as is euident in the answer to this Chapter places that we will quote Tertullian who liued verie neere the Apostles time doeth make mention in his booke that he intituled De resurrectione carnis of the annointing vsed at the Baptisme and of the renouncing the Deuill all his pompe In his booke de coronâ militis he doeth speake of the third dipping vnder the water in the name of the father the sonne and the holy ghost S. Cyprian the Martyr who was aboue 1300. yeares agone doeth write in the second volume of his Epistles Epist 12. how they did vse in his time to giue the holy Chrisme vnto the children that were baptised Origen in his twelfth Homilie and in diuerse other places of his workes doeth make mention of the renouncing of the Deuill at ones baptisme of the making of the signe of the crosse vpon childrens faces when they were christened S. Iohn Chrysostome in his 12. Homilie vpon the first Epistle to the Corinthians cap. 4. And in his first Homilie vpon the first Chapter to the Ephesians he doeth make mention of the saied renunciation made from the Deuill and all his workes Reade I praie if it be your pleasure S. Aug. in Psal 31. Aug. li 15. contra Iulia. Pelag. li. 1. ca. 2. Item de nuptiis cōcupiscentia lib. 1. cap. 20. in Ioannem tract 33. in Canonicam Ioannis tract 3. tractat 6. Et de eccle dogmat cap. 31. De Simbolo lib. 1. cap. 7. lib. 2. cap. 11. Et libro de his qui initiantur sacris Cap. 1. Basilius de Spiritu Sancto cap. 15. 27. Arnobius in Psalm 75. All these doctours which were aboue a thousand yeares agone if you reade in them the places that heere I haue quoted you shall finde that they did vse at the Baptisme of their children those verie ceremonies that wee doe now vse and that you doe so mislike And as for confession before the receiuing of the Sacrament our sauiour Christ doeth teach vs that the Ecclesiasticall ministers haue authoritie to binde and forgiue sinnes Saint Cyprian in his fifth Sermon de lapsis Origen vpon the thirtie and seuenth Psalm and in Leuit. Hom. 2. Saint Augustine libro 2. de visitatione infirmorum Cap. 4. Saint Cyril libro 12. in Iohannem Cap. 56. Saint Hierom in Ecclesiast Cap. 10. All these doctours according to the Scriptures in these places doe confirme auriculer confession And as for praying vnto the Saintes in Paradise to helpe vs vvith their praiers read Origen in his third Homilie vpō the Cāticles and in his 2. book vpō Iob his eight book in Eccl. Reade Chrysostom in his eight Homilie vpon the Epistle to the Ephesians the fourth Chapter and S. Augustine in his twentie booke against Faustus the one and twenty Chapter and Saint Hierom against Vigilantius All these make mention of the praying vnto the Saintes And for praying for the dead reade Tertullian in his booke De Monogonia and in his booke De corona militis and Saint Cyprian ad plebem Furnensem and in the first booke of his Epistles and Origen in Hieremiam Homil. 12. Item in Epist ad Rom. libro 8. cap. 11. Reade Chrysostome in his thirde Homilie vpon the Epistle of Saint Paul to the Philippians and S. Augustine lib. 2. de gen against the Manichees cap. 20. in the Encheridion ad Laurent cap. 110. Item libro de cura pro mortuis agenda All these doctours whose workes haue continued these 1200. yeares doe teach vs all these thinges that now we doe obserue the which
conuinced as shall plainely appeare in the discourse heare folâ—owing Stande no more in the defence of that which you may easilie know and see with your eies if ye will not be wilfully and obstinately blinde â—o bee nothing but deceit d These titles do rightly fit the popish Religion What doe I call it deceit nay I call it a most venimous poison to the soule yea and an hellishe draught of endelesse â—eath e This part your papists play now in England in being recusants of all sound good meanes to reforme them Playe not the parte of a mad man of whome Horace vvriâ—eth in the second booke of his Epistles that he was angry with his frends â—or that they had caused him to bee healed of his phrensie and restored to his wittes againe Bee not angrye that you may if you will bee brought out of the fowle miste into the cleere ayre from darkenesse to â—ight from an horrible phrensie to godly wisedome Followe the wholesome counsel of Saint Paule in the fourth to the Ephesians Vt non simus amplius pueri qui fluctuemus circumferamur quouis vento doctrinae per versutiam hominum per astutiam qua nos adoriuntur vt imponant nobis That we be no longer children and fleete two and fro caried hither and thither with euery blast of doctrine by the wilinesse and craftinesse of men wherewith they set vpon vs to deceiue vs. There haue beene a great manie f In deed so many such Iesuites and Seminaries you haue sent vs such sprongeÌ„ vp in our Realme of late which haue taught vs wronge Lessons Emendemus ergò in melius Let vs amend therefore The thirde propertie is that the sheepe doe follow their Shephearde This property is of so great importance that without it the other two cannot auaile It is not Inough to knowe Christ to be our refuge our helpe and succour g This is true as long as the church retaineth the two former properties which youre long ago hath lost It is not inough with that also to heare Christ speaking to vs in his Church except we follow Christ his Church shew our selues willingly to doe that which the Church commaundeth vs We must fast when the Church commaundeth vs as it biddeth vs We must pray as the Church instructeth vs We must do those good works that the Church teacheth vs to doe In obeying the Church wee obey God if wee bee disobedient to the Church wee disobey God For as Chrysostome saieth vpon the first Epistle to the Corinthians vt corpus caput vnus est homo ita vnum est ecclesia Christus As the body and the heade is but one man so is Christ and his Church one thing Doe therefore as the wise man biddeth thee Audi disciplinam patris tui ne dimittas legem matris tuae Heare the discipline of thy father and forsake not the lawe of thy mother I meane thy mother the h Holy Church hold you there for so long you say nothing for your vnholy and filthie Churche holy church whom as many as forsake they forsake God also For as holy Cyprian writeth de simplicitate praelatorum Habere non potest Deum patrem qui ecclesiam non habet matrem He cannot haue God to be his father that knoweth not the church for his mother i Let this rule be followed for the questions betwixt vs your church shall bee found in those pointes to haue set a broch those things that those most auncient Churches neuer were acquainted withall Yee may see here euidently that this holy man would haue vs to be obedient vnto and diligently to keepe the ordinances of our fathers and not to institute euery â—â—y new fashions as men most vnconstant and full of new fangles The Lacedemonians are praysed that they suffered no straunge ware to be brought into their citty whereby the cittizens might be effeminated and corrupted in their maners and for the same cause they extoll greatly Licurgus which made the same law Now if the Lacedemonians were so serious obseruers of their olde lawes and customes what a shame shall this be to vs christian men which were not taught of Licurgus but of Christ himselfe daily to alter and change not content with those rites and ceremonies that were ord yned of auncient time out of memory Irenaeus teacheth in his third booke against the heresies of Valentine and such other whose wordes taken out of his fourth Chapter of the saide booke I will briefly rehearse Si quae de aliqua modica quaestione disceptatio esset nonne oporteret in antiquissimas recurrere ecclesias in quibus Apostoli conuersati sunt ab eis de praesenti quaestione sumere quod certum reliquidum est If any controuersie should be of any question were it neuer so little must it not be meete to haue our recourse vnto the most ancient churches in the which the Apostles were conuersant of theÌ„ to receaue the plaine certaintie thereof It followeth Quid autem si neque Apostoli quidem Scripturas reliquisleÌ„t nobis noÌ„ne oportebat ordineÌ„ se qui traditionis quá tradideruÌ„t his quibus coÌ„mittebaÌ„t ecclesias But what if the Apostles left k If indeed they had left no scriptures then that had beene a good course but nowe seeing they haâ—e what their tradition was is best lerned by them But the better to hide your folly in citing these wordes you subtily translate scriptures nothing written of that matter nothing writteÌ„ of that matter must we not follow the tradition of theÌ„ to whose gouernaÌ„ce they coÌ„mitted the churches Here haue you the minde of Irenaeus who was neere vnto Christ his time for as S. l Here againe the question is begged for you take for granted that your pâ—elates are lawfully called and ours not both which we deny Hierome testifieth in an Epistle to one Theodora he was Disciple to Papias who was S. Iohn the Euangelists scholler Hee would haue men to be taught of Christ of his Apostles and their successours and m Of the same minde are we therefore Christian men are not to listen to your prelates not of euerie one which rashly and without lawfull authority taketh vpon him to be a teacher Christian men should be obedient to christian ordinances and followe that doctrine that is allowed by them that are lawfullie called and haue the censure of doctrine committed to them Such were the Apostles called and put in authoritie by Christ Such were they n But such haue not beene your Romish teachers these many hundred yeares Witnesse your owne writers who shewe how vnlawfully many of them came by their places to whom these againe gaue the charge ouer any faithfull â—ongregation Such are all they which haue so from time to time â—eene lawefullie called by them that haue power to put others in authoritie and so succeeded in due order else Quomodo praedicabunt
must needs be good and lawfull and ours the plaine contrarie Howbeit if we examine this point throughly we shall find that they haue as weake helpe hence as from the other or from any thing else For whither they vnderstand by right succession succession without interruption in place person or office seuerally or iointly togither neither can their Bishops and Priests as they are now truelie saie they haue it nor yet if they could they being gone as they be from the soule and life of right Apostolicke succession namely the Catholicke and Apostolicke trueth are they euer the better And of the contrarie though it were neuer so true that we could not deduce vnto our present Bishops and Pastours downe from the Apostles or their times without interruptiō the line of succession in place person and office yet we being able to shew as wee are that we holde one and selfesame doctrine with them that would iustify our Church and ministers sufficientlie notwithstanding the want of the former This is quickly and easily sayed you will saie but these thinges cannot so readily bee proued I graunt to proue them will cost the more paines otherwise the proofe is readie and pregnant enough and that I doubt not but if with any indifferency that which I shall write to that ende bee marked shall ere it bee long appeare I say therefore first that the Roman Bishops and Priestes as they are now and haue beene a long time whatsoeuer they brag no not their verie Popes vnto whose right succession Stapleton and others trust most haue any right succession either to any Apostle or Apostolick man in place person or office For first they can neuer soundly proue the proofes out of the scripture are so strong to the contrary their proofes out of the stories so disagreeing and variable in all circumstances that Peter the Apostle whose successours their Popes claime to be and from whom al other Bishops and Priests amongst them haue their vocations and authority deriued was either euer at Rome or being there that hauing laied aside his Apostleship which was the greater and higher office he sate there as Bishop Secondly vnto this day they cannot agree of the order of succeeding one another betwixt Linus Cletus Clemēt Anaclet Vrspergensis in the life of Claudius hath notably at large set out both the difference of opinions in this matter and also the vncertainty of the trueth Thirdly none of any learning and reading can be so ignorant in the stories of the Bishops of Rome but he knowes that they haue not succeeded one another frō the Apostles to this day wtout interruptiō alwaies neither in place persō nor office For besids that sūdry times many Popes for some short time haue sate from Rome it is notoriously knowen that Clement the 5. about the yeare 1305. translated the Popes see from Rome into France to Auinion where it continued aboue 70. years And as for immediate orderly successiō of persons amongst them how is it possible truely certainly to define set downe that seing that see hath not onely stoode vacant daies weekes monethes and years somtimes 2. sometimes more but also there hath bene at once so often not only 2. but often 3. sometime more euery one striuing with his fauorers to be accoūted to be the right Pope And lastly by that which I haue said before of the nature of their offices of Popes Cardinalles Bishoppes Priestes their practise prouing daily my words therein to be most true how dare any mā that hath any feare of God once say or think that they in their offices haue any affinity with the Apostles or any Apostolicke man Light darknes are not more differing the one from the other then the offices of Apostles Euāgelists Prophets Pastours Doctours in the ancient primitiue Apostolick Church differeth from these offices of theirs Secondly whereas I sayed though yet they could which now you see they cannot truely say that they succeed the Apostles Apostolicke men in place person and office yet they were neuer the nearer my reasons thereof are these First I finde that wicked people wicked Priests in the scriptures often haue had this kinde of succession to pleade for themselues against the true Prophets and against Christ himselfe as you may see Ierem. 7. vers 4. cap. 8. vers 8. Iohn 8. v. 44. Vriah the Priest in King Ahaz time had this successiō frō Aaron and yet he to please that Idolatrous king set vp cōtrary to the commandement of the Lord an altar according to the patterne that the King had sent him of one that hee had seene at Damascus 2. King 16.10.11 The high Priests that withstoode alwaies Christ his doctrine and in the ende crucified him had this kinde of sucession yet none of these or their doings were any thing the more iustifiable for this Againe though Stapleton lib. 13. doctrinalium principiorū cōfesses that the Greekes haue beene scismatiques and heretiques this 500. yeares yet he all the sort of them of any reading know that not they only but also the Patriarches of Antioch and Alexandria and the Bishops of sundry other famous Churches in the world all which likewise they holde bee scismatiques and heretiques can doe make as great shew of this kinde of succession for the countenancing of their ministery and Churches as they themselues for they knowe that the Patriarch of Constantinople doeth deduce his locall and personall succession from Andrew the Apostle that the Patriarch of Antioch now sitting at Damascus doeth likewise his from Peter which he may doe more certainly then the Popes when they sate at Auinion could for it is euident Gal. 2. ver 11. euen by the scripture it selfe that Peter was at Antioch so is it not that he was at Rome In like maner they knowe that the Patriarch of Alexandria now holding his seate at Alcairum deriues his from the Euangelist Saint Marke And ignorant they are not that the Arrians preuailing as they did and in the ende hauing got the most seats of Bishops to be furnished with men of their dānable opinion that they for that time were able to holde this plea aswell as themselues and yet I am sure they will graūt that none of these were therfore or are therfore to be allowed iustified They will say I am sure for so I finde thē plainly to reply in their writings yea euen Iohn de Albine himselfe afterward Cap. 7. that though these all can and doe plead succession in place person and office that yet it cannot iustifie them because not onelie they haue helde some of them detestable heresies but presently also doe still Indeede I must needs confesse that I read that Macedonius Nestorius and Paulus Sergius abrupted the line of right successiō by their heresies at Constantinople that Paulus Samosatenus did the like at Antioch and that Dioscorus and Petrus Moggus did likewise at Alexanderia And
I cannot deny but that I finde all these and the Churches vnder them still charged to holde errours and heresies but this then withall I infer the more true that it is and hath beene thus with them the more euident it is of what small acount this personall and locall succession is of it selfe either to giue credit to Bishops and Pastours or their religiō that can plead that And this further I adde if these be sufficient causes to make their alleadged succession to be of no valew then there is as great cause why succession bragged on so much by the Romanists should be reiected as a thing not worth the naming For not onely in inferiour places of Bishops and Priestes which is a thing that they will not striue with vs about it is so manifest that there haue beene many heretiques amongst them but also euen in their line of Popes who as some of them hold cannot erre there haue bene sundry heretiques also For Tertullian contra Praxeam writeth of a Bishop of Rome that did allow of the Prophesies of Montanus as he saieth therefore sent letters of communion to the Churches of Asia and Phrigia thereabout And Athanasius in his epistle ad solitariam vitam agentes and so also Damasus in the life of Liberius and Hierō de ecclesiasticis scriptoribus testifie that Pope Liberius was drawen in the ende to subscribe to Arianisme And Honorius died an heretique as it is to be seene in the first general councel Act. 12. 13. c. Liberatus also Breuiarii Cap. 22. witnesseth that Vigilius in secret fauoured heretiques Anastasius the second fell into a condemned heresie as we read Dist 19. Cap. Anastasius and therefore would haue restored Accatius a condemned heretique And yet I say nothing of Pope Iohn 23. condemned for an heretique by the councell of Cōstance the schole of Paris for denying in effect the immortality of the soule Yea the euidence of the trueth in this point is so open and strong that it hath caused their owne frends to condemne them of grosse flattery that holde that Popes haue not and cannot fall into heresie as any man may see that will read Alphonsus contra haereses lib. 1. Cap. 2. 4. Lyra vpon the 16 of Matth. and the third Synodall Epistle of the councell of Basill And that the Romish Church doeth now holde as grosse and palpable errours and heresies as they charge these withall if I proue not ere I haue done with Albine I will neuer craue credit either to our ministers or to our Churches and cause Wherfore to leaue the proofe of this to his place or places to goe on with that which I haue vndertooke to proue against them concerning this their brag of right succession whereas thirdly I saied that though we were not able to deduce or deriue downe from the Apostles wtout interruption any locall and personall succession vnto our Ministers that now bee yet as long as ours teach and our people embrace the same doctrine that they taught wee are well enough whatsoeuer they say to the contrary that resteth onely now in this case to be proued But before I come to the proofe of this least in this my assertion I be mistaken I would first that it were marked that I speake but by way of supposition that is if we were not able to set downe a continued line downe from them to vs without any interruption for in the 4. Chapter following I hope I shall set downe such a descent of our Church from them to vs as whereby it may sufficiently appeare that there was neuer age nor time since but our Church and religion hath had her teachers and hearers Secondly I would haue it also vnderstoode that my meaning is though it were so that wee could not make recitall or demonstration of any such descent or succession in that processe of time distance of place and the force and subtlety of our enemies kept vs from knowing their names persons and places that yet for the continuance of the trueth and the Church of Christ amongst men I constantly holde and beleeue that there hath beene a continuall and vninterrupted succession of teachers and embracers of GODS trueth whereof his Church consistes euen from the first beginning thereof and shall bee to the ende Onely this is it that thereby I am contented bee insinuated that the Churches of Christ if they can proue that they are taught by such ministers as God doeth raise vp vnto them according vnto his good pleasure whither ordinarily or extraordinarily and that they embrace no other doctrine but that which Christ and his Apostles taught witnes the canonicall scriptures that then they are to be accounted Apostolike and holy Churches of God and that in such a case especially in and after great persecutiōs ruines long oppressions of their mēbers children they neede not to be daunted nor discouraged neither in respect of their ministers and teachers nor in respect of their doctrine though they cannot be able lineally to name the persons either by whom their ministers downe from the Apostles haue had their vocation deriued vnto them or else by whom euer since that trueth hath beene continued For howsoeuer in visible Churches of GOD whiles they stande in florishing or vnoppressed state and condition by the fury of persecutours there is a set order and forme visibly to bee obserued in the vocation of Church ministers in respect of which estates and times it is easie for them that liue therein or within the knowledge and remembrāce thereof to make demonstration of the lyne of succeson yet when in the iust iudgement of God the Churches shall bee oppressed as now a long a time they haue beene vnder the tyranny of Antichrist then and after such a time such a thing growes to many not onely harde but also impossible And in such tymes wee finde that the Lorde of his wisedome and power to continue yet his Church rayseth vp men though not by the ordinary way vsed in the former tymes as after the dispersion of the Church at Hierusalem by meanes of the persecution there when Stephen was stoned we reade that the Disciples beeing dispersed and namely with them Philip the Deacon that hee preached the Apostles not aware thereof for any thing that appears so vnder Cōstātine Antonius the heremite taught at Alexandria and vnder Valens Aphraates Flauianus and Iulianus at Antioch beeing then but Monkes who in those dayes were not so much as counted amongst Clarkes as wee reade in Nicephorus libro 11. Chap. 15. These thinges thus premised thereby not onely my meaning shall rightly bee conceiued but also that which I haue saied in some sort is already confirmed But my reason indeede is that true and sounde apostolicke doctrine in the good prouidence of God towards his Church opened and continued in the same though by men not comming to their places of teaching by the ordinary way alwayes but sometimes somewhat
Catholiques that withstood the Arrians in the sight of this Emperour had but a poore visibility to bragge of Yea Piggius your owne man confesseth Hierar lib. 1. cap. 6. that their poison had defiled not a part but almost the whole world in so much that almost al the Bishops not only of the east but also of the West by one meanes or other were blinded and no small time continued this heresie and this is certaine that they bragged then as much of visible succession of the name of the Church and vniuersality as euer since you haue done calling the true Christians Homousians as you doe now Lutherans Zwinglians as appeareth in the writings of those that wrote against them You may see therefore that these weapons or staies are coÌ„mon to you with blasphemous and condemned heretiques These places of Scripture and experiments therefore caused August vpon the 10. Psalm 78. Epist to compare the Church vnto the Moone which besides the monethly waynings suffereth oftentimes ecclipsies And surely vnles we be too too wilfull al these things togither may make vs out of doubt that the Church of God both before Christ since hath ofteÌ„ failed to cary any such outward visible shew in theeies of the world that it is so easie a matter to make at al times demonstration of her Pastours teachers who they were and where they taught as you our aduersaries would beare the world in hand it is And therefore for answere to this Chapter to any reasonable man this is sufficieÌ„t The II. Chapter SAint a Thus you are falne from prouing that you are come to your places by the ordinary calling of such as haue ri htly succeeded one another both in person office trueth of doctrine which is the thing you should haue proued to shew that there hath alway bene and must be a successioÌ„ of Pastours to continue settle meÌ„ in the truth which is another point For though this were grauÌ„ted you yet you haue not therby wun the other Paul followeth this discourse in the fourth Chapter vnto the EphesiaÌ„s where as he doeth declare vnto vs the fruit that doeth proceed of this successioÌ„ of Pastours and of the perseueraÌ„ce of the reasonable sheepe in one kinde of spirituall doctrine called the vnity of faith For he sayeth that God established this order to that ende that wee should not bee like light children a The more is your sinne that haue suffered yourselues to be caried away froÌ„ the truth by the enticements of Antichrist caried away with euery blast of false doctrine through the subtilitie of men their crafty words full of deceit In these wordes you doe see how the Apostle doeth declare vnto vs the counsaile the intentioÌ„ of the holy Ghost b If you had beene constant in this faith wee and you had beene all of one minde and vnles we can â—ustifie our faith to bee euen so grounded as you say we will forsake it and ioine with you but if we caÌ„ then you are to forsake yours to ioine with vs if you will answere the intention of the holie Ghost I meane that we should be constaÌ„t in our faith the which is grouÌ„ded vpoÌ„ the word of God interpreted declared vnto vs by the Doctours Pastors that successiuely haue continued in one kinde of faith Catholick religion froÌ„ the first time that it was preached with out turning with euerie winde but rather that we ought to stand firme stable Here is to be noted that wheÌ„ the Apostle doeth tel how he hath left vs pastors doctors to warne vs of the subtletie of false teachers he doth vse a certaine greeke word very apt for this purpose the which hath in English the signification of the c I would not you had forgot this note for it doeth liuely paint out your doctours which by this their skil in cogging and cosening doe make the scriptures to haue a flexible sence alwaies sutable to the practise of your Romish Church how variable so euer that be playing or cogging at dise And euen as he that hath no great skill if he plaie with such a one he wil soone lose his money because the other caÌ„ cast what he will EueÌ„ so if a simple maÌ„ being vnlearned doe chaÌ„ce to talke with such a one as caÌ„ cog or to speake plainelie falsly interprete the Scriptures he may soone be deceaued as we see it daily happeÌ„ to many that play away put in hazard the rest of al their spiritual inheritaÌ„ce I meane the faith which hath bene left to theÌ„ by their fathers froÌ„ age to age since Christs time Thus haue the Arrians the Nestorians diuers other heretikes deceiued manie a man as I will shewe more at large hereafter The II. Chapter IN this second chapter you obserue further out of the 4 to the Ephe. before alleadged that God established a ministery in his Church that we should not be like childreÌ„ caried away with euery blast of vain doctrine thorow the subtlety of meÌ„ their crafty words full of deceit whereupoÌ„ you inferre that thereby God hath taught vs to be constaÌ„t in our faith grouÌ„ded vpoÌ„ the word of God interpreted declared vnto vs by the doctors pastors that successiuely haue coÌ„tinued froÌ„ the beginning in the same Who of vs euer either wrote spoke or thought otherwise But herein is your subtlety that you take this stil for grauÌ„ted which indeed is the maine question betwixt vs and for determinatioÌ„ wherof on your side you haue as yet saied nothing that the faith and religion which your Synagogue is in possessioÌ„ of is that faith which you speake of which we constantly deny affirming the faith religion which we professe to be that indeede wherein the Apostle would haue vs constant and setled and which hath alwaies coÌ„tinued in the Church and hath bene taught and iustified out of the word writen by the true pastors thereof in one place or other froÌ„ time to time And therfore herein you haue saied nothing but the we vnderstanding it of our faith and religion maketh as much for vs as for you We grauÌ„t you also that false teachers and wrong interpreters of the Scriptures worthily there may haue their subtlety expressed by a word importing cogging or cosening but then still we adde that your teachers a long time haue bene the meÌ„ that haue vsed and yet doe vse that cogging tricke Which if it would please you once by the souÌ„d rules of interpreting the scriptures to let your interpretations and ours be examined we doubt not but to make most manifest vnto all men quickly The III. Chapter THe place that I haue quoted of the Apostle doth shew how daÌ„gerous a thing it is to fal into the hands of such Coggers of the scriptures likewise how certaine a thing it is a Such interpretation of the doctour we will most willingly follow and if you should you would
neuer hauing proued either of these nor yet being able to doe it you should cōclude that your prescription against our doctrine which you call newe at your pleasure though indeede it be most ancient witnesse the olde testament and the newe much rather ought to take place then his in his time against heretiques that then taught diuerse basphemous heresies directly against the scriptures You say our Religion hath beene vnknowen this 1500. yeares or at least if any body sought to publish it he was condemned as a false pernitious heretique But you doe but say thus you proue it not nor euer shall For it was both heard and knowen many 100. yeares before yours was hatched and if euery one were so condemned that taught it then was Christ and his Apostles so condemned For vnlesse by scriptures we can proue ours to be the same that theirs was wee aske no fauour at your hands And as long as we can doe so the more we and our predecessours haue beene condemned by you the more we knowe we haue beene blessed of God Now whereas you say in this Chapter further that Irenaeus did withstand heretiques by the traditions of the Apostles adding your glosse that is to say by doctrine not writen but deliuered from hand to hand and so receiued from age to age frō the Apostles to that time therein through the ambiguity of the word Tradition craftsly you seeke to deceiue your simple reader and indeede you giue a glosse that corrupteeh the text For let that place of Irenaeus in his third booke and second Chapter be perused and that also which followeth in the third Chapter of the same booke though either you or the Printer mistaking it send vs to the fifth Chapter where the wordes are not which you cite and most euidently it shall bee proued that though Irenaeus haue there the words by you cited yet by the traditiōs of the Apostles which he speaketh of there he meaneth no doctrine nor points of doctrine as you doe vsually by that word contrary or besides that which was also taught in the word writen For the question was of God the father of our Lord Iesus Christ which Valētinian Marcion denied against whō he there sheweth that he fought first with the scriptures wherewith when they were vrged he saith they are turned streight into an accusation of the scriptures as though they were not right had not authority might diuersly be takē saying further that trueth could not be found of them by those that are ignorant of traditiō For the trueth was not deliuered by them but by liuely voice that therefore Paul saied we speake wisedome amongst them that are perfect not the wisedōe of this world And this wisdome to euery one of them saieth he is that which he himselfe hath deuised Of which heretiques their wordes yours when you are called to the touchstone of the scriptures are so like vndoubtedly you haue learned to plead against the scriptures for your vnwritten traditions Now when thus he had shewed how the heretiques in his time shunned triall by the scriptures and appealed to tradition he goeth on and sheweth that when he was contented to come to the traditiō of the Apostles kept obserued in the church downe from the Apostles to those times by succession of pastours then they resisted tradition also saying that they were wiser then either those pastours or the Apostles themselues and so indeede neither by the scriptures nor yet by making demonstration vnto them that the same doctrine taught in the scripture was also deliuered by liuely voice first by the Apostles and so receiued from age to age and continued in by those pastors of whose successiō he speaketh could stop their mouthes And thus any mā of meane capacity may perceiue that in these places Irenaeus his drift only is to shew the heretiques that the doctrine which he taught concerning God the father of our Lord Iesus Christ first was warranted by the Apostles writings and then also taught by them by liuely voice and so deliuered and continued from hand to hand amongst the faithfull pastours succeeding one another euen vnto that time And that he calleth this the tradition of the Apostles and not as you falsly expound him doctrine vnwriten beside or contrary to that which is writen as the Popish traditions you striue for bee if you had beene disposed you might haue learned in the 1. Chapter of the same booke where he saieth That which first they preached after by the wil of god tradiderunt nobis they deliuered vs in writing to be the foundation and piller of our faith And indeede it is an vsuall thing with the fathers of the primitiue Church often by the tradition of the Apostles to vnderstand the very same doctrine which is conteined in their writings Herein therefore so likewise in all other points in controuersy betwixt vs it is a cōmon tricke with you papists to vrge the fathers wordes quite contrary to their true meaning But because you first and namely bring in Irenaeus for your vnwriten traditions which is the window indeede that you would haue faine left open vnto you for then thereby you hope you may thrust in and vpon the Church what you list and so countenance thereby your Antichristian doctrine when all other shifts faile let vs see whither this cannot yet further be made manifest out of him He as Eusebius reporteth Hist Eccles lib. 4. cap. 14. saied that Polycarpe taught that one and sole trueth which he had learned of the Apostles quae Ecclesia tradit which the Church deliuereth forth Where of necessity by those things which the Church deliuereth by tradition that he there speaketh of you may not vnderstand any other but those which haue warrant from the word writen and in no case those things that are besides that or cōtrary thereunto for then hee would not haue called that which Polycarpe preached the one and sole trueth for questionles those things are true that are conteined in the scriptures And this clearely appeareth if you marke the wordes as they are in Irenaeus himselfe in his 5. booke 20. cap. that Eusebius hath relation vnto which are these Polycarpe did mention or teach those thinges which he had heard of the Apostles that is all things agreeable to the scriptures Againe the same Irenaeus in his 3. booke and 3. cap. which is one of the Chapters by you before alleadged saieth that vnder Clement the Church of Rome wrought to the Corinthians shewing them quam traditionem what tradition of late they had receiued of the Apostles that is to say that God the father almighty and so forth as is expressed in Moyses is the father of our Lord Iesus Christ And that he is so taught to bee of the Churches saieth hee they that will learne may by the Scriptures and so they may vnderstand the Apostolique tradition of the Church Where it is most cleare that he telleth vs himselfe
Catholicâ teneor that is is to bee preferred before all those thinges whereby otherwise I am held in the Catholicke Church The third place likewise which you alleadge here out of Augustine as you haue quoted it serueth onely to bewray either your grosse ignorance or negligence For I finde he wrote 2. bookes against the aduersarie of the lawe and the Prophets but none in all his tomes can I finde fathered vpon him writen as you say against the aduersarie of the olde and new lawe and if you meant the former there being two bookes of that title and euery one consisting of many Chapters why speake you thereof as though he had writen but one and name not the Chapter when you tell vs where to finde the place you shall be more particulerly answered thereunto In the meane time you see in Augustines iudgement in the two other places that the trueth taught in the canonical scriptures is to be preferred before all other motiues to keepe a man in the true Catholique Church contrarie whereunto I am sure hee neither teacheth where you meane nor any where else You should therefore in his opinion farre better bestowe your time then you doe if you would bestow it in prouing by the scriptures that you your Church were stable in this trueth especially seeing trueth it selfe euen here hath enforced you to confesse that that stablenes is atteined vnto by the knowledge and intelligence of the scriptures But you adde that these scriptures theÌ„ must be vnderstoode according to the traditions of the church and the succession of the Apostles and Bishops If by the church you did vnderstande as you should the true and pure church of Christ and by her traditions and Bishops such as were sound that is such as are truely iustifiable by the canonicall scriptures as the ancient fathers Irenaeus Tertullian Augustine with others of those and former times were woont to vnderstaÌ„d them as I haue shewed before when to stop the mouthes of heretiques they did appeale to theÌ„ then wee would most willingly ioyne with you that issue by the scriptures so vnderstoode to trie whether you or we haue attained to the stablenes of trueth But vnderstaÌ„ding therby as you doe your Romish church for these last 500. or 600. yeares her traditions Bishops we say and sure we are we are able to proue it that so far of is it that the scriptures are to be vnderstoode according to theÌ„ that there is no readier way to misunderstand them and to make them to haue a mutable and flexible sence now one way now another then to make them they being so contrary as they be to the ancient sound traditions of Christs church which alwaies were consonant if not the very same to that is taught in the word writen the Bishops you meane being likewise so different from them that were in the primatiue church and ofteÌ„ also so varying amoÌ„gst themselues as they are in the interpreting of them to be the rules of right vnderstanding of theÌ„ Finally if you had any forhead or conscience you would be ashamed so to abuse your poore simple reader as you do in going about to make him beleeue that because Augustine could or did say that the church had continued in it froÌ„ the Apostles times through the succession of Bishops to his that therefore hee saied it had so to ours there being aboue 1000. yeares difference The VII Chapter YOV doe studie as much as you can to reiecte our succession and not without cause a Succession of persons without succession also in trueth neuer was esteemed knowing that this onelie doeth suffice to ouerthrowe all the heresies of those new reformed Gospellers Caluin as the most appareÌ„t doeth seeke to proue that our reason is of no force because that the Greekes haue had euer succession of pastours and yet wee doe not holde them as Catholickes But if the Reader doe well note that that wee haue alreadie saied hee shall finde the answere vnto this obiection I meane because that the Greekes haue not had succession a Holde you to this you may giue ouer your brags of succession for shame and continuance of doctrine called vnitie of faith by the Apostles the which ought euer to bee ioyned to the continuance of the Pastours to shew the true recognisaunce of the Catholicke Religion There is none that doe studie and reade of those matters but that doe knowe the vnconstant faith of the Greekes as touching the proceeding of the holie Ghost the which errour they had abiured at the last councell of Florence and yet notwithstanding they did turne to it againe besides diuerse other light things to speake moderately b You haue as many thinges of importance and more too gainesaiâ—d by your forefathers which are not approued by their ancieâ—t fathers S. Iohn Chrysostome S. Ciril S Basil Athanatius nor yet by our aduersaries at this preseÌ„t time The which errours I haue no neede to set forth in this booke for my intent is but to speake of that that pricks vs at hand because of ill neighbourhood Some doe alleadge vnto vs the c We neuer alleage this alone but together with the false doctrine and vnlawfull vocation of your Bishops and Pastours negligence of our pastours and their ill liues for the which cause they saie that the mentioned succession cannot take place But this argument is of no force For although that the carelesse liues of some Bishops and ecclesiasticall persons haue beene so great so hurtfull vnto the bloud of our sauiour Christ I meane to the soules bought with it yet notwithstanding that d Yet thus for the principall point you are glad to fly from your great prelats to your poore priests the church hath not lost the succession continuance of one doctrine as touching the administration of the sacramentes by those that were deputed by the Bishops e Indeede this kind of diuision is altogether practised in your Romish Church by your Cardinals and great prelats If one should see a Prelate doing nothing and his lieutenant doing all which of those two would you take to bee Bishop they haue both deuided their charges the one receiueth the profit the other taketh all the paine If they be both content what losse do you feele he that hath anie interest let him valewe the damadge And although that the negligence of the Bishop bee not excusable f And yet nothing more coÌ„mon wi h you then wilful continuance yea by your Popes good leaue in this sin before God with the diligence of the deputie nor his conscience cleare yet this ought to suffice that though his faults be through negligence or through euill liuing g True but such doctrine you shal neuer proue yours yet that ought not to perturbe the assurance of our doctrine the which we haue taught vs by the word of God interpreted by the true doctours that haue beene
printed in our hearts that he be holden as an * Galat. 1. Anathema or an excommunicate person yea although it were an Angell of heauen The which doeth perswade vs not to receiue your d Ours is new to you as the doctrine of Christ and the Apostles was to the Iews in that time that vnderstoode not the Scriptures new doctrine or Gospell but to keepe our selues vnder the gouernaunce of our olde Pastours and Bishops without hauing any respect to their euill or good liues for as touching our faith and saluation that doeth import nothing e This is hardly boldly saied for any thing that you know some take occasion the rather thereby to haue them and so to be conuerted The good and holie liues of Iesus Christ and his Apostles hath profited nothing neither to the obstinate Iewes nor to the vnbeleeuing Gentiles f Open confessioÌ„ would haue open punishment Nor in the like case the depraued life of manie euill Bishops that haue beene at Rome and in other places haue not shut the dores of heauen against those that are true Catholickes and leade particuler liues the which are two principall pointes that doe quiet our consciences g The first is talke and the laâ—ter iâ— little bene seeing how many of you haue learned to be lâ—â—dâ— of them I meane the one that we beleeue that that our Pastours and the vniuersall Church haue beleeued these thousand and fiue hundred yeares and the other that their euill liues cannot hurt vs. For as the Apostle doeth say euery man shall beare his owne bundell The IX Chapter NOw perswading your selfe that you haue yeelded vs a sufficient account of your ministrie when as onely you haue countenanced it with a shew of personall succession and a bare bragge without any proofe at all of succession also in the Apostolique trueth as it may appeare by that which hath beene sayed you call vs to a reckoning for ours and will vs to shew that God is the authour of it or else to giue you leaue to say it commeth from his aduersary We answere you that our calling is of God first because orderly according to the order of the Church wherein wee liue wee are by them that are deputed by the Church for that busines tried and examined and then with imposition of handes and speciall prayer vnto God fitte for that purpose admitted and ordained ministers of his worde and Sacramentes Secondly because our office of the ministery it selfe is the same that Christ gaue vnto his Church vnder the names of pastours and Doctours whose office and properties are set downe and described Actes 20. 2. Corinthians 4. 1. Timothy 3. Titus 1. 1. Peter 5. And thirdly because we are able to proue by the writen word that we feede Gods people committed vnto vs with that onely foode which God hath allowed for his children and minister the Sacraments according to Christes institution Lastly God himselfe hath sealed ratified our ministery to be of him in the effectual vocatioÌ„ conuersioÌ„ of many thereby Let vs now therfore heare what you can say either to weaken this our assertion that our calling is of God or any of these reasons that we vse to proue the same by First in Tertullians words de Praescrip aduersus haereticos you bid vs shew the beginning of our Churches and reckon vp the succession of bishops down to vs from the beginning c. you haue heard that the same Tertullian in the very same place yea euen in the words immediately following yours addeth Be it that heretiques deuise thus to doe for what is not lawfull for them being once fallen into blasphemy But though they shal deuise so sayeth he they shall gaine nothing For their doctrine compared with the Apostolique doctrine by the diuersity and contrariety thereof will pronounce that their Churches haue neither Apostle nor Apostolique man for the authour thereof Whereof when he had giuen a reason he addeth that those Churches which caÌ„not shew any Apostle or Apostolique man to be the founder thereof in that they were founded long after as many are yet in eâdem fide conspirantes non minus Apostolicae de putantur pro consanguinitate doctrinae that is they are no lesse to be reputed for Apostolique agreeing with them in the same faith euen for the affinitie therof You thought it good to stop before you came to these words For these words indeede take away all the force of the obiectioÌ„ grouÌ„ded vpon the former in that hereby it is euident that howsoeuer Tertullian in his time could shew the originall of the Catholique Church by deducing it and the doctrine therein professed euen from the Apostles to his time yet hee thought it was possible for heretiques to make shew of the like succession of persons but secondly and especially because thereby it is most cleare that to proue a Church to be Apostolick it is not necessary for it alwaies to be able to deduce such a line of personal succession down from the Apostles but it is sufficient to be able to make it appeare that the doctrine thereof agreeth with the doctrine of the Apostles Which vnles we be able to doe by the Scriptures whereby we most cartainly may know what their doctrine was let not our Churches be accounted Apostolique But if this we be able to doe which we doubt not of and yours compared and conferred with the Apostolique doctrine therein expressed shall proue both diuers and contrary then for all your fiction of succession we say vnto you in Tertullians worde that so your Churches shall be proued to be founded neither by Apostle nor Apostolique man For as the Apostles taught not contraries amongst theÌ„selues so neither did the Apostolique men saieth he vnlesse it were they that departed from the Apostles and ours shall proue themselues though they were not able to deduce their Succession from the Apostles by their affinity of doctrine with that of the Apostles to be Apostolique and so to haue their originall and beginning from Sion and so also in the end it will fall out that Tertullian spoke rather against such as you are theÌ„ against vs. And thus you see Tertullian hath sufficiently answered himselfe and also hath giuen vs weapons against you to defend our selues withall You gaine euen as little by your similitude taken from tenants who to proue their title good must shew their Land-lordes how by succession they came to their landes For if all Land-lords should thrust all their tenants from their possessions which are not able to deduce the descent of their tenimeÌ„ts froÌ„ one to one euen froÌ„ the first that held it purchased it the 10 tenant in the world should not long quietly enioy his owne Yet you for your parts if your bare bragge were a proofe are such tenaÌ„ts to the inheritance of the church of Christ and the Catholique trueth that you haue not onely proued your title thereunto to be good by
shewing by al lineal succession how you came to it from Christ his Apostles but thereby also you haue quite ouerthrown our claime This is easily saied wel bragged of you but it is more then either you can or meane to proue O yes saie you we can as it were going vp vpon the ladder of Iacob mount from step to step vntil in the top we come to those that first taught the Catholique faith in Tholossa Paris and Guienna as to S. Saturim Denice Martiall and Gratian and to the rest of the Saints It may be these were Saints you speake of and yet you haue not shewed vs that yea it may be also you can frō age to age euen frō that time to ours now name vs the persons that haue succeeded one another from those men you speake of but you shal neuer be able to proue that all these persons which haue succeeded haue continued in the sound Apostolique faith and so haue deriued it down frō the first to you that be the last which vnles you proue this climing vpō this ladder you talke of wil doe you smal pleasure But you are so confidently perswaded that the religion that you are in possession of now is the very same that was taught the Church of Christ in the beginning that you denounce him anathema be hee man or angell that preacheth against it Yet this is no proofe that it is the very same For you may be deceiued and if God would giue you grace to read and rightly to vnderstand the Scriptures sure I am that euen in thus saying you would finde that you haue as far as your authority reacheth cursed and excommunicated your own selues your whole Church So far of are we though it please you stil to cal our religion a new Gospel from being afraid to ioine with you in anathematizing them that preach any other Gospell then Christ and his Apostles preached at the first that withal our hearts we say Amen thereunto And therefore for all your supposed newnes of our religion we wish with all our hearts according to Iohns counsell 1. Epist 2. that that might abide which wee haue heard from the beginning We thinke Tertullian saieth most truely that cōmeth from the Lord is true that is first deliuered that is strange and false which is brought in after De praescrip aduersus haereticos Wherfore we say also most willingly with him in an other place in his 4 booke against Marcion Id est verius quod est prius c. That is truer that is former that is former that is from the beginning and that is from the beginning which is from the Apostles But then we conclude with him De praescriptione aduersus haereticos Vndè autem extranei inimici Apostolis haeretici nisi ex diuersitate doctrinae c. How are strangers and enemies to the Apostles knowen but by the diuersitie of doctrine which euery one of his owne minde hath brough forth and receiued against the Apostles therefore let deprauation of Scriptures and their exposition be accounted to bee where the diuersitie of doctrine is founde hitherto Tertullian and wee with him and therefore doe not charge vs any more with newnesse nor make your bragges anie more to deceiue the simple of antiquity vnlesse by the Scriptures wherein the simpliest knowe the Apostolique doctrine is contained indeede you can proue your doctrin to agree with theirs and ours to disagree For you may not thinke that you can cause them that haue any witte or discretion at al left them to beleeue that your doctrine is the same that was taught at the first by the Apostles because you can say so or because you can tel them their father grandfather and great grandfather tooke it so as long as they see you are loath to come to the triall with the learned whither it be so or no by Gods writen word Euen herein thundering out your Anathema though you would seeme therein stout and resolute in your religion yet if your words be wel marked it may euidently be perceiued that like a dastard you shunne the trial of your doctrine by the writen word For you say If any body come to teach vs any other doctrine then that which hath beene taught vs at the beginning I do not say writen in booke no take heed o◠that but printed in our harts let him be Anathema c. wherby you bewray your minde namely to be this that when it shal come in trial what that religiō is that was preached at the beginning you would not haue the Canonical books of the old and new Testament to determine the matter but that which was then writen in mens hearts whereby you meane your vnwriten traditions But I pray you how shal we know what was writen in mens hearts by the ministry of the Apostles better or more safely then by that which they wrote Especially seing as Irenaeus hath tolde vs that which they preached at the first after by the wil of God they committed vnto writing to be the foūdation piller of our faith in his 3 booke Chap. 1. As for your vnwriten word to speake most moderately you knowe the credit thereof is suspected and certaine it is it must agree with the word writen for God is one and selfesame both in writing and speaking or els worthily may it not be suspected onely but flatly also reiected as a false and counterfait word which but that you know it doeth not you would without any such correction or explanation of your meaning haue saied simply that you would haue him held Anathema that preacheth any other doctrine thē that which is writen in the books of the scripture But your owne conscience telling you that yours was another doctrin then had warrāt fro thēce before the curse should drop out of your pen you thought it wisdome least in your own knowledge you should haue cursed you selues to tel vs that you directed your sentence not against those that teach another doctrine then those bookes wil warrāt for of such you allow well enough or else you should disallowe your selues but against those that teach another doctrine from that which was writen in our harts so leauing to your selues liberty to make the poore people beleeue that that was whatsoeuer you would deuise O this is too too grosse paltry dealing in matters that so much concerne the souls of mē as this doth especially in this so great light that shineth now euery where amongst vs. As for your liues the liues of your pastors and great bishops though they be such as worthily you may be ashamed of yet if they had continued in the profession of the trueth therein we would haue held for al the other communion with them But seing their liues haue bene such a long time as there were neuer worse in Sodom nor any where els witnes your own stories Benno Cardin Platina Sabellicus Abbas Vsperg and others
forgate one thing that doeth hinder greatlie your commission You should haue shewed God that the commission which he gaue you was like to breede no lesse mischiefe amongst the Papists thē Moses did amōg the Aegyptians For I e And you know we haue iust cause so to thinke and say am sure if anie to trie you would take your oath that you would sweare that the Pope is as ill as Pharao and we as hard hearted as the Aegyptians Therefore why did yee not demande of him a rodde to conuert into a serpent and to passe drie foote ouer the redde Sea f Our vocation is ordinary the message we haue olde and ancient sufficiently confirmed by all the miracles cronicled in the Scriptures and therefore this was needelesse Why did yee not require at his hande that it might please him to authorize his worde preached by your ministers with signes miracles and tokens as he did when hee sent your fellowes the Apostles seeing that you are Prophets how commeth it to passe that you haue not foreseene that wee would not beleeue you for who is hee although he were a Deuill that could not saie as much But we haue one disauowe which God hath giuen to manie which doe report that they doe come from him which doeth greatlie ouerthrowe the authoritie of your commission g These many moe such like doe so fitly paint your Prelates therefore it is that we shun thē as we doe He doeth saie in the 14. of Hieremie the Prophets preach falsely in my name I haue not sent them I haue not commaunded them nor I haue not spoken vnto them but they prophecie vnto you false visiōs and naughty diuinations to deceaue your heartes And likewise in the 27. Chapter I haue not sent them saieth the Lord God they prophecie in my name falsely to the intēt I should forsake you and that aswell you as your prophets should perish Item in the 29. Let not your Prophets seduce you that are amongst you nor your southsaiers and doe not marke the dreames that yee dreame for they doe prophecie falsely vnto you in my name seeing that I haue not sent thē saieth the Lord. c. So that although it were true that God hath sent you as it is false we might with a iust cause pretend an excuse of ignorance and to saie with great assurance that that * Gen 20. Abimilech saied vnto God g That you cannot for you haue the Scriptures of the old and new Testament if you had grace to preserue you frō such blindnes as yee shew in refusing our doctrine which is so warranted as it is there where hee threatned that he would kill him because he kept Abrahams wife O Lord God saied he would you kill a poore simple nation Shall it be saied that we beleeue all those that faine to come in your name haue not you commāded vs by the Apostle * 1. Ioh. 1. h And therefore we are so bold as to try your popish spirit by the spirit that speaketh in the Scriptures That we should not beleeue euery spirit and that the Angell of darknes doeth transforme himselfe into an Angell of light Haue not you commanded to bee writen that we should beware which way we take and that such a waie doeth seeme good the which notwithstanding doeth leade vnto damnation and perdition If anie saying that he is our Princes seruant i But we haue both and vnlesse wee can proue we haue beleeue vs not should come to demande a summe of monie in his masters name and that hee had neither his hand nor his seale to warrant his demaund would not wee send him awaie like a false merchant fearing that he would deceaue vs then with greater reason ought we to feare the committing of our faith the hope of our saluation into their hands whom we know not nor that cannot shew anie miracles k You were deceaued these words be not there to cōfirme their preaching as the Apostles did * k Mat. 28. Qui confirmabant sermonem sequentibus signis That is which did confirme their preaching with signes or miracles following l Because there is not like reasō and cause as thē whi◠doe not they say as he saied whose successours they professe to be the signes of my commission Apostleship haue beene accomplished among you with signes and miracles 2. Cor. 12. The XVII Chapter YOu proceede charging vs to haue begon reformation by force but as yet you haue not proued it Vpō the beginning thereof in these later daies or not long after wee graunt some stirres did arise in Germanie France and other places but therein it hath fallen out no otherwise with the renuing and reuiuing the Gospell of Christ then it fell out with the Apostles when they beganne first to preach it For we reade Act. 17.19 that then stirres and tumults there were vsually raysed vp by the enemies thereof to hinder the course thereof And as long as it is not to bee lookt for but that alwaies it will haue some enemies what else can be hoped for but when it springeth beginneth to florish there wil be some stirres and contentions betwixt the frendes and enemies thereof But as the Apostles when for these stirs sake they were charged to be seditious persons might truely cleare them selues in that not they nor the professours of the Gospell were at anie time the authours thereof but rather the enemies thereof so may wee in this same case also doe For either they haue begun of your selues who haue thought by force to stoppe the course of the Gospell or if any haue begon by others as some did in Germanie by the Anabaptistes our men haue beene the forwardest by their writings and otherwise to condemne their doings therein And yet though it should haue fallen out or it may bee proued that in some one place or other there haue beene since this late detection of Popish enormities some disorderly tumults and in the same some vnlawfull force vsed wherewith some indiscreete persons of our side may iustly bee charged as long as it is a thing which we neither like allow nor iustify in them what reason is there that that should be obiected as matter of sufficient disgrace to all the rest of vs and to our Religion also Is it impossible for such thinges to fall out sometimes amongst them that professe Gods trueth euen in well ordered common weales Then truely of al men in the world the men of your profession will bee proued to haue least acquaintance with Gods trueth For neuer were there more broiles hoate contentions and force more vsed to compasse your wils then haue beene amongst you euery seuerall order of Religious men euery abbey euery Cathedrall Church if the stories were searched ministers vnto vs infinite demonstration that there hath nothing beene more vsuall amongst you O the lamentable and most sauage cruell dealing that hath beene vsed
our ReligioÌ„ to be the true ancient Catholicke faith taught by the Apostles and euer since continued in Christes true Church namely first for that by the Canonicall scriptures we can proue it to be the same that they preached seeing it caÌ„not be denied but their preaching and writing agreed and secondly because our Religion in all points agreeth with the ancient groundes of the Catechisme the ten coÌ„mandemeÌ„ts the articles of the faith the Lords praier c. And for these causes indeede we most confidently say and aduouch that you doe vs extreame wrong the trueth soundnes of these two reasons notwithstanding either to call our Church or ReligioÌ„ new or thus to call for miracles to confirme it now as though it had neuer beene confirmed thereby before But in all this with you we say nothing to the purpose yet with the indifferent Reader I hope it is to good and great purpose seeing hereby we labour to proue that our church and Religion is not new and but of 40. yeares continuance as here most vntruly you charge it but olde ancient because it agreeth in euery point with the principles of the ancient Christian Catechisme All you say to confute this argument of ours is that we haue learned our Catechisme of you otherwise we should not or could not haue come by it Whereunto I answere that if wee had had no better Catechisers then you we had yet beene but badly Catechised and this further you may be sure of your credit was by your long and manifold lewd dealing so crackt with vs if we had not found these parts of the Catechisme either flatly expressed or sufficiently confirmed and grounded in the Canonicall scriptures vpon your credit we had not receiued them besides as I haue plentifully shewed in the 4. Chapter we haue had in all ages from Christ downe to our owne very manie of our owne Religion that haue continued and from hand to hand deliuered vnto vs these partes of the Catechisme more soundly and faithfully then you haue done so that if you had neuer beene we should farre better and sooner haue learned these things But in the most wise prouidence of God these were in some sort also continued amongst you that so you might be the more without excuse in that notwithstanding the light that migh haue shined vnto you thereby you yet chused rather to walke in grosse and palpable darknesse then in the light thereof And therefore sathan the Prince of darknesse in your Synagogues through the helpe of his vicar generall your Pope and his Chaplaines neuer ceased vntill by one blinde and hellish perswasion or other whatsoeuer Paul had taught to the contrarie 1 Corint 14. he brought to passe not onely that all your Lyturgie and seruice should bee in Latin and rather lying legends permitted to be read in the Churches publickly in the mother tongue then the Scriptures of God but also that these portions of the Catechisme should either not bee learned at all or else onely in the Latin and vnknowen tongue which he knew was all one in effect Otherwise then thus by your good wils how little soeuer we had vnderstoode the latin tongue wee should not nor could not bee suffered to learne them and therefore this learning being altogether wtout edification neither is there any cause why you should brag that we haue learned our Catechismes of you nor why we should accouÌ„t our selues any thing in your debte for the same Further to make it yet more appeare how little beholden we are to you for teaching vs the Catechisme let vs but a little consider euen your most diligent Catechising of men in these three partes thereof here named by you the ten commandements the creede and the Lordes prayer First concerning the ten commandements in steede of one God which there we are commanded to haue you in teaching vs to worshippe Saints Angels your breaden God and your Pope as you doe haue taught vs to worship so many more Gods then one and secondly that your images and idols might staÌ„d to the enritching of your cleargy with the idolatrous offrings vnto theÌ„ it was and is a common trick with you in setting down the commandements in your Catechismes and elsewhere to leaue the second commandement quite out which is directly both against the making and worshipping of them and yet least you should of euery one be spied in finding them but 9. you deuide the tenth into two And as for the other 2. coÌ„mandements of the first table by your ordinary most coÌ„mon practise the people were taught whatsoeuer is there to the coÌ„trary that it very well becommeth them of your schoole vsually to sweare by a number of things that are no Gods and to season all their common talke with oathes of all sortes and to turne the day which should bee kept holy to the Lorde to a daie of the greatest vanitie and impiety of al the daies of the weeke And to proceede to the second table neuer did the Iewes more make the 5. commandement of none effect for loue of their Corban then you haue done to maintaine your infinit orders of monks friers nuns in all contempt and neglect of duety to their pareÌ„ts if once you could entise them into those cloisters How pretious soeuer bloud be yet so small a matter hath it bene with you that your Synagogue is drunke with the bloud of Gods saints and euery varlet is not only easily dispensed withall with you but also often much commended if hee can though neuer so traiterously embrue his haÌ„ds for the furtherance of your kingdome in the bloud of subiect or Prince brother or of whoÌ„ soeuer else And as for adulterie or fornication yea for sinnes against nature not to be named your great Catechisers neuer haue seemed to make reckoning of in that notwithstanding they know that these haue followed in such infinite measure vpon their inforced single life in euerie corner that the stench thereof hath long ago reached vp vnto heauen to pul downe Gods fearce vengeance against you yet rather then they would let go this tricke of hypocrisie they are contented that this â—ench increase stil Your infinite and open sacriledges in building founding your cloisters and Prelacies in spâ—â—â—ing the seuerall parishes of their ordinarie maintenance for their ministers other your innumerable vnsatiable pillings polings of Gods Church your decree and practise in not keeping any faith with those whom you couÌ„t heretiques and your ordinary doctrine that bare concupiscence â—s no sinne shew what Catechisers you are for the rest And whereas in the creede we be taught indeede to beleeue onely in the Trinitie in that you vsually teach vs to trust yea in the matter of saluation to a number of things besides and to praie vnto saints and Angels it being plainly taught vs in the word that beside God there is not sauiour Esa 43. and that Christs name is the onely name of
gentiles namely to Augustus Cesar which profes though they were granted to be of sufficient force to proue that the gentiles had thereby some knowledge of the cōming maner of cōming office of such a Messias yet they proue not but that it was notwithstāding a thing newe and not vnderstoode to most of thē neither doe they at all proue but that still the doctrine concerning the particuler person of that Messias namely that Iesus the sonne of the virgin Mary whom the Iewes crucified was he no other was a new doctrine both to Iew and gentile and therefore in that respect it was necessary for the Apostles for all these thinges to confirme that by miracle whereas now amongst vs that beare any waie the name of Christians that doctrine is not newe neither anie thing else that wee preach but to those to whom the ancient doctrine taught in the Scriptures is newe and therefore as yet there remaineth cause sufficient why the Apostles should worke miracles and not wee This also I cannot but tell you of that howsoeuer the Sybilles are reported to haue prophecied of Christ your comparison is verie odious when you saie they did it as fully and as plainelie as anie of the Prophets and that you wrong Augustine too too much in making your Reader beleeue that hee either in the place quoted by you or anie where else ioyneth with you in that malaperte comparison But these comparisons of yours argue the profanenesse of the spirite that directeth your pennes The XX. Chapter THVS you see that Iesus Christ was anounced among the Gentiles before the comming of the Apostles who notwithstanding this did not let to set forth the doctrine that they were sent to preach vvith manie notable miracles although they did not teach but that doctrine that was verie ancient And although that their doctrine vvas newe and vnknowen to the Gentiles yet you cannot alleadge that it vvas so a Yes it is evident that the true doctrine both of his person and office was new and strange vnto thē vnto the Iewes for they beeing studied and learned in Moses lawe they hearde nothing of the Apostles but had beene prophecied by the Prophets Doeth not Saint Paul saie at the beginning of his Epistle to the Romanes that hee was seperated to preach the Gospell the which God promised by the holie Scriptures * Act. 3. Saint Peter talking with the Iewes doeth giue them plainelie to vnderstande that his vvas no newe doctrine because that hee did preach Iesus Christ of vvhom Moses had prophecied long before saying thus * b Deut. 16. God shall raise a Prophet among your brethren b Deut. 18. you would saie you shall obey him as you doe me and hee that doeth refuse it shal be put to death Saint Peter saieth afterwarde All the Prophets that haue beene from Samuel vnto this time doe announce vnto you these daies that is to saie the doctrine that wee doe preach That that the Apostles did preach vnto the Iewes that is to wit the remission of their sinnes by the death and passion of Christ it was no newe thing for as * Act. 10. Saint Peter saied vnto Cornelius All the Prophets haue vvitnessed that those that beleeue in him shall obtaine remission of their sinnes for it had beene so prophecied by Esay c 53 you should haue saied cap. 55. vnto the people aboue eight hundreth yeares saying that hee had laied vpon his sonne all our iniquities as it doeth appeare in his booke in the vvhich he doeth shew himselfe more an Euangelist then a Prophet for there hee doeth vvrite the tormentes of our Sauiour euen as if hee had beene present at his passion Dauid likewise doeth talke of the like where hee doeth mention the extreame affliction of our Redeemer and of the Gall and Isope and the Vinager Daniel did not onelie discrie the death of our Sauiour but therewithall the verie time that he should come And to bee briefe all the Prophets haue announced vnto the Iewes that that the Apostles did preach vnto them Now if wee desire to knowe why this olde doctrine preached aswell to the Gentiles as to the Iewes by the Apostles was confirmed vvith manie miracles vvhich they did in the name of God vvho sent them the cause is this the Deuill had so obscured and hidden the trueth ouer all nations that superstitious Idolatrie had taken place in steede of the true seruice of God so that the poore Painims did not put their trust in one God but in a multitude of Gods And in like maner the true Religion giuen by God to the Israelites had beene troubled and almost cleane abolished by the traditions of the Scribes and Pharisees in the vvhich they did trust for the iustification and remission of their sinnes d And in your owne consciences you cannot but see we haue iust cause The like doe you report of vs and of your great curtesie yee are contente to match vs vvith the superstitious Iewes and Idolatrous Paynims placing your selues in the degree of the pure Gospellers and the true children of God taking vpon you the succession of the Apostles and calling your congregation the true Catholicke and Apostolical Church This sounds notablie well but seeing that your cause is absolutely to reforme the Church as they did preaching the ancient doctrine of God as they did and dealing with superstitious Idolaters that cleaue more to the traditions of men thē vnto the pure word of God as the Iewes Seing then that our case is reported vnto the similitude of the Iewes and yours to the Apostles and Prophets how comes it to passe that you doe not as they did seeing that you are sent frō one master Why e Because our doctrine being the very same that theirs was their miracles serue sufficiently to confirme it to take away al excuse from them that will not beleeue it to the worldes ende doe ye not make your commission appeare by signes and miracles seeing that God hath euer done the like heretofore when he hath sent the like Commission to yours The XX. Chapter I haue shewed you my reason in the former Chapter why you must stay for all your premises from the conclusion that you beginne withall in this For howsoeuer some few of them thē heard in some sort that such a Messias either should come or was come yet the particuler person who that same was was first preached by the Angel Gabriel secondly by Zacharie and Elizabeth his wyfe Luke 1. before he was borne then by the Angels to the shepheards the day of his birth after by Simeon and Anna Iohn Baptist the Apostles of Christ and the rest as it followeth set downe in the story Luke 2. c. But you say yet further that though their doctrine concerning Iesus Christ the Messias was vnknowen to the Gentiles yet it was not so to the Iewes for the Apostles preached nothing but that which
rest of the Chapter there is nothing but scoffing at Luther and Sleydan ioyned with malitious slaundering of the one to haue bred not onely Coralstadius Zuinglius and Oecolampadius whereof he needed not to be ashamed if it were so but also Muncer the Anabaptist and the other to be a partiall Cronicler which are things easie for you to speake but impossible for you to proue and therefore therein vntil you bring further proofe you are worthy no further answere And therefore as yet for any thing you haue saied you were best follow our counsell and receiue the Gospel which we preach vnto you least the dust we shake off of our feete against you proue a witnesse against you in earnest at the day of iudgement The XXII Chapter ALthough that by the testimonie of your owne doctours ye are condeÌ„ned yet you doe stil maintaine your ill cause saying that ye ought to be receaued to preach the Gospel a Still herein you flatly bely slander vs. extraordinarilie b If the ordinary way be thus by Pastours and Bishops then few or none of your Priests haue entred the ordinary way from whose ordering Pastours haue beene and be vsually shut out that is to saie without the commission of the Pastors Bishops being those that are sent vs by the permission ordinance of God And you saie to maintaine your commission extraordinarie that you haue the holie scriptures which you doe alleage c This obiection you will neuer be able to answere the which alone ought in this behalfe to be of more credit then al the miracles that euer the Apostles did For it mate so chauÌ„ce that by subtle deuises impostures of the deuil miracles maie be falselie counterfâ—â—ted but not the scripture which is the touchstone of the trueth as it shal be seene by experieÌ„ce wheÌ„ the childe of perditioÌ„ otherwise called Antichrist shal come For he to confirme his saying shall shew such great signes and Miracles that the verie elect should be seduced if it were possible Now to answere vnto this which is a notable waie to deceiue the simple and vnlearned d Nay we take not our cause iustified because we alleadge scriptures but because by the rule of right interpreting we be able to shew that the true sence thereof is of our side which heretiques cannot doe therfore we standing vpon this as vpon the foundation of our cause and we being alwaies ready to yeelde vnlesse we can proue we truely alleadge them all that you say in sundry chapters following to proue that heretiques haue alleaged them is needelesse and beside the point I saie that if the alleaging of Scriptures should maintaine you and fauour your cause so much as you doe saie our side were driuen to hard shiftes for then we might bee blamed before the seat of God not onelie for not receiuing your Gospell but likewise for refusing the Gospell of diuers heretikes that haue beene manie hundred yeares before you vvere borne vvhich did al alleage the Scriptures as it doeth appeare by the three passages vvriten vnto the * Cap. 6.10 12. Hebrewes aboue mentioned By the vvhich the Nouatians did pretende to verifie that the mercie of God vvas denied vnto him that did offende after his Baptisme ioined with that that is writen in the first booke of the Kings If man saied the good Helye doeth sinne agaynst man hee maie agree with him agayne but if hee come to offende God who shall hee bee that shall pray for his sinne Did not the Arrians alleage Scriptures to maintaine that Christ vvas not God and man Yes surelie e How or which proue you this as manie places or more then the Catholikes Saint Augustine doeth vvrite in his booke De haeresibus ad quod vult deum That there vvas in his time a certaine sect of heretikes that taught that for a man to be saued hee ought to be gelded And they did alleage the nineteenth Chapter of S. Mat. where Christ doeth praise the Eunuches which haue gelded themselues for the kingdome of heauen And if a man were disposed to forge another heresie like this hee might soone finde scripture to maintaine it beeing ill interpreted for he doeth commande that wee should pull out our eies and to cut off our handes and feete euerie time that through them we are scandalizated for saieth he it were better for one to enter blinde or lame into the kingdome of heauen then to be condemned hauing all our members so that taking these words as they are plainlie writen we ought to cut the members from our bodie f It seemes you haue beene brought vp in this trade of misalleadging the Scriptures you are so cunning in matching herein wicked heretiques Besides this he that would forge an heresie somewhat more pleasant and easie one might soone doe it the which is that for to goe to Paradise we haue no neede of hose shooes or money because that our Sauiour did so commaund it to his Apostles One maie likewise proue by the Gospell that we haue no neede of Magistrates nor other Superiours forasmuch as our Sauiour hath saied that one is your Lord and master namelie Christ Moreouer a man maie proue by scripture that one ought to retaine nothing vnto himselfe if anie other demaunde it forasmuch as it is writen If one demaund of you your coate you ought not onelie to giue it but your dublet also and if one giue vs a box on the eare it is not inough to take it patientlie but we must turne the other cheeke also g And to this heresie you come maruellous neare in your cap. 34. Iouinian a great heretike did teach that a Christian after his baptisme doeth no more offend God yea that hee could not although he would Who would not hate such a blasphemous errour as this yet if the alleaging of the Scriptures ought to suffise he maie be preferred before Master Caluin as more ancient for hee doeth alleage Saint Iohn in his first * Cap. 5. Epistle vvho saieth Wee knowe that hee that is borne of God doeth not sinne for the generation of God doeth preserue him and the ill spirit shall not touch him And in the same h That is a curled glosse that corrupts the text Iohn speaks not of the sacramentall regeneratioÌ„ but â—f effectuall regeneration by the spirit which alwaies accompanies not the other Euery man that is borne of God that is to saie baptized hee doeth not sinne for the seede of God doeth dwell in him and hee cannot sinne for he is borne of God Saint Augustine doeth write in his eightie nine Epist ad Hilarium that the Pelagians and Manichees among other heresies that they did maintaine they saied that it vvas impossible for rich men to enter into Paradise vntill they had solde all their goods and giuen them to the poore and that all things ought to be commoÌ„ The which doctrine is easilie to be maintained
The XXIIII Chapter THe Catholicke Church continuallie hath faithfullie holden doeth holde that our Sauiour Iesus Christ is true God and man hauing taken natural flesh in the wombe of the virgin Marie wholie like vnto ours as touching the corporal essence that is to saie excepted onelie sinne the vvhich bodie he did forme of the verie flesh and substaunce of his mother by the operation of the holy Ghost vvho hath vvrought so notable and excellent a vvorke that tvvo contrary or diuers natures are miraculouslie ioined vnited in one person without confusiō or conuersion of the one substance into the other but by coniunction vnion of them both called by the diuines Hipostatique This doctrine hath euer beene receiued and holden by the Church in equal degree of trueth and reuerence with the rest of the points of religion which now you seeke to abolish And notwithstanding this diuers Ministers and Preachers deriued from the sacred consistories of Valentinus Photinus Manes Theodorus Nestorius Apollinaris Eutichus Macharius Eutiocheus besides a great number of other famous heretickes that I cannot here name haue sought to teach the contrary saying that they were sent from him that sent the Apostles to reforme the Church b Thus at your pleasur◠you father vpon these heretiques to make them resemble vs that the contrary whereof the ancient fathers attribute vnto thē namely that they shunned trial by the scriptures that they accused them of vnsufficiency darkenes and so fled to vnwriten traditions and fond reuelations euen as you doe for al the world not by the Traditions of men which you cal Papistical but by the pure word of God For euen like you my masters did Valentinus his fellowes begin the reformed Church taking vpon them the correction of al the Magistrates and Fathers in times past saying that they did abuse the people because that they taught that Iesus Christ had taken flesh and bloud of the Virgin Marie saying that this vvas a great errour the vvhich ought to be reformed and that the people should beleeue that he brought his bodie from heauen and that he caused it to passe through the wombe of the Virgin Marie as the water doeth through the chanell This Gospel was verie straunge yet the saied Valentinus did not want Scripture as you haue to confirme it interpreting it euen as you doe interpret here in France He did alleage for his text the third of Iohn where Christ doeth saie No person is ascended to heauen but hee that did descende from heauen And therefore did he maintaine that seeing Christ is in heauen and descended from heauen that he tooke no flesh of the virgin Marie Nestorius another notable hereticke did lincke his Gospell to Apollinaris opinion in this case seperating the manhood from God and saying that the sonne of man ought not to be called God for seeing saied Apollinaris that this man is descended from heauen it doeth follow that hee tooke no flesh of the virgin besides this Christ saiethe * Ioh. 6. I am descended from heauen not to doe my will but the will of my father Here hee doeth not speake as one that is God for if it were so he would haue no other wel but the will of his father and so he doeth speake like a man And he saieth that he is descended from heauen for the which cause this same Valentinus did take the conclusion of this Gospel to his aduantage for the third authoritie that is writen in the first to the Corinthians where Saint Paul saieth the first man is of earth earthlie the second is of heauen heauenly The which passage or place is as fit to serue Valentinus opinion as all the places that you and all those that hold your opinion can alleage The XXV Chapter ANother Minister likewise called Apollinaris followed after these sent by the saied master yet according to his saying he did preach the pure word of God affirming that the Church ought to bee reformed which had beleeued that the two natures were cōtained in Iesus Christ that the true religion was to beleeue as it is writen in the 1 of Iohn that the word was indeed become flesh or cōuerted into flesh And to confirme this he did alleage the saied place where S. Iohn doeth say And the word was made flesh whē the catholickes did reply against him saying that the verbe or word tooke flesh not as touching the conuersion of one substāce into another he did fortifie his Gospel with another text where S. Iohn doeth write of the mariage at Canaa where the water was chāged into wine that is to saie as touching the very substance of the water which vvas turned into wine Euen so saieth he that it became at the verie Incarnation of Christ alleaging that that we haue saied And the word was made flesh Arrius which was the most famous hereticke that euer hath bene did pretēd to verifie another gospell his was that our Sauiour Christ had not taken at his incarnation a perfect soule another men haue but that he had onely a body and that his diuinity did supplie the absence of his soule Of this opinion was Apollinaris Theodorus Mossnestenus and Nestorius came after and they did blame the Catholick Church because it did teach the saied vnion called as I haue saied Hipostatique that is to saie of the two natures in one person And they did alleage for their argument a verie subtil reason the which was that God did inhabite within the body of our sauiour as he did within a Temple that is to say by grace and not by being vnited togither And therefore euen as it were a great folly to saie that God is a Temple that so it is to saie that God is a man This Gospell did seeme verie new yet did not they want Scripture to maintaine it a That is not because we haue not plainer places rightly alleaged for proofe of our religion but that in Gods iust iudgement such as you haue eies and ee not and that more plainer then euer I could see anie place to maintaine your heresies Christ did saie vnto the Iewes * Joh. 2. Vndoe this Temple and in three daies I will build it againe He meant it by the Temple of his bodie saieth S. Iohn Then the bodie of Iesus Christ is the Temple of God God is not his temple See whether this be not a notable argument to deceiue the simple man that is not vsed to read how the doctours expound these hard places And moreouer they did alleage S. Paul in the first to the Colloss where hee doeth saie that the plenitude or fulnes of diuinitie doeth dwell in Iesus Christ corporallie they do alleage this place greatly to their purpose to proue that God is b In him as in left out I thin e. a Temple that is to saie by grace not being vnited For the third place they take the 8. of Iohn where
confute them and to confirme the trueth as it appeareth by Christes answere to Sathan Mat. 4. and by the writings of the ancient fathers against these heretiques And the hardnesse that it hath pleased God to leaue in the Scriptures is not such but as that notwithstanding the simplest may reade and trauell in the Scriptures with great profit howsoeuer it pleaseth you to insinuate in your taunting maner ca. 26. that artificers may not haue the spirit of God and bee profitable readers and vnderstanders thereof For euery one that would be blessed is to take delight in the lawe of god and to shew that his delight by meditating therein day night Psalm 1. and Christ hath commanded all his hearers indifferently to search the scriptures Iohn 5. And for all the hardnes that is in them we reade Psal 19. that the testimonie of the Lord giueth wisedome vnto the simple and his commandements giue light vnto the eies And therefore the holy ghost in Dauid speaking of the scriptures of the olde Testament which were then harder then they be now being so opened as they be now by the accesse of the new Testament saieth thus Thy word is a lanterne vnto my feete and a light to my paths Psal 119. Wherefore Peter in his 2. Epist 1. cap. calleth the writings of the Prophets a light that shineth in a darke place and therefore much more he accounted the scriptures of the new testament lightsome which it seemeth in the verie same place he had an eie vnto adding that they did well to attend to the former vntill the day dauned and the day starre arose in their harâ—â— which by meanes of the Scriptures of the newe Testament might bee though I forget not that the same Peter in the same Epist chap. 3. wrote also that amongst the things writen by Paul in his Epistles concerning the later daies there are some things hard to be vnderstoode For I remember also that yet he noteth to whom they are so saying which they that are vnlearned and vnstable peruerte as they doe the other Scriptures vnto their owne destruction for to such nothing is plaine inough to preserue or keepe them from thus doing Vpon which groundes howsoeuer you and your fellowes with such like discourses as this would discourage the simple and vnlearned from reading the scriptures Origen wisheth that al would doe as it is writen Search the Scriptures in his 2. Hom. vpon Esay And Hierom noteth vpon these wordes Colosse 3. Let the word of God dwell in you plentifully c. that euen laymen ought to haue the word of God not onely sufficiently but also abundantly dwelling in them And therefore Augustine in his 55. sermon de tempore saieth generally vnto his hearers It is not sufficient that yee heare the deuine scriptures in the Church but also in your houses either reade them your selues or els desire some other to reade them and giue you diligent eare to them And Chrysost likewise in his 9. Homil vpon the Coloss is verie earnest to perswade seculare men as you call them to get them the Bible or at the least the new Testament to be their continuall teachets and in his 3. Homil vpon Mat. he saieth plainely that this as a plague marreth or infecteth all that some thinke that the reading of the Scriptures pertaineth onely to monkes And these exhortations tooke such place in the ancient time that Hierom vpon the 133. Psalm saieth that both maried men and their wiues then had this contention and not monkes onely who could learne most Scriptures Whereof came such profit that howsoeuer your gibing spirit can not digest the like in these daies Theodoret in his 5. booke of the nature of man writeth that men in his time might commonly see that their doctrine was not only knowen of them that were doctours of the Church and masters of the people but also euen of Tailers Smithes Weauers of al artificers yea and not onely of learned women but also of labouring women as Sewsters Seruants and Handmaides yea he goeth further saying that not onely citizens vnderstoode the same but also cuntrie people and amongst them Ditchers Deluers Cowherdes and Gardiners and that in such sorte as that you should then heare them disputing of the Trinity and of the creation of all thinges And as for the obiection that you terrifie them so much withal of the hardnes therein the ancient fathers haue met with that also and would not haue them thereby in any case discouraged from following this counsell whereby they are stirred vp to heare 〈◊〉 them And therefore Origen in his 20. Homil vpon Iohn saieth It may be saied the scriptures are harde yet notwithstanding iâ— thou reade them they shall doe thee good and Hierom noâ—â—th that it is the fashion of the Scripture after harde thinges to 〈◊〉 other things that be plaine in his 19. Homil vpon Esay But Augustine belike meeting in his time with your forefathers of whom yee haue learned this obiection hath these wordes in his 5. books against Iulian yee enlarge and lay out with many wordes aâ— nothing is more vsuall with you how harde a matter the knowledge of the scripture is and meete onely for a fewe learned men and therefore in his 3. booke and 26. cap. of Christian doctrine hiâ— giueth vs this rule to expound darke places by more plaine places which saieth hee is the surest way of declaring the scriptures to expounde one scripture by another in his 2. booke and 3. chap. of the same matter he writeth that in those which are conteined euideÌ„tly in the scriptures are found al things that conteine fâ—â—th maners hope and loue But Irenaeus in his 1. booke chap. 3 â—â—â—teth simply that the scriptures are plaine And Chrysost in his first Homil vpon Math. and vpon the 2. Thess 2. writeth that the scriptures are easie to the slaue husbandman widow children and that all things be plaine and cleare therein And yet I 〈◊〉 needes adde with Epiphanius onely to the children of the holy ghost are the scriptures plaine and cleare in his 2. booke and with Solomon knowledge is easy to him that will vnderstand Prou. 14.6 For the naturall man perceiueth not the thinges of the spirit for they are foolishnes vnto him neither can he know them because they are spiritually discerned 1. Cor. 2.14 Of whom that S. Peter 2. Epist 3. might giue vs to vnderstaÌ„de hee onely meant he calleth theÌ„ to whom those thinges in S. Pauls Epistles whereof he speaketh are harde and whose fashioÌ„ it is to misunderstaÌ„d not only those things but also the rest of the Scriptures how plaine soeuer both vnlearned also vnstable which is an argumeÌ„t of waÌ„t of the spirit of God of all true desire indeede to finde knowledge wheresoeuer it be And it may be this is the cause why the scriptures seeme hard vnto you of the church of Rome because you are led by the spirit of your Pope
fathers as you herein take it for granted on your side For in trueth you haue none of these on your sides but the onely grounds of your religion are your owne priuate and singular interpretations traditions of men without warrant either from the Scriptures indeed soundly vnderstood or from generall Councels or ancient fathers that are worthy to bee of credit in Gods Church For as we haue made appeare in infinite discourses against you al these are farre more strong on our side then with you And therfore you rather are the fooles that seeme wiser theÌ„ all these in your owne conceit and so labour to draw vs from the ancient catholique faith and Christs true Church by your corrupt glosses allegations of these by your vaine vncertaine traditions of mortal men Wherof let the reader take for a tast these few proofes amoÌ„gst infinite others vsed by vs. The Scripture with vs teacheth iustification freely by faith in Christ without workes Rom. 3.24.25 Ephes 2.8.9 and you condeÌ„ne theÌ„ as heretiques that teach so The scriptures with vs teach that Christs offering himselfe once for al hath made perfect all them that are sanctified Heb. 10.14 and you coÌ„trarily teach that they must be perfected by the iteration of his sacrifice in your masse by a number of other things done by themselues and others for them The Scriptures with vs teach that Christ is ascended into heauen Coloss 3.1 Act. 1.9 c. and that the heauens must containe him vntill the restitution of al things Act. 3.21 and you contrarily wil haue him as oft as you consecrate to come downe to hide himselfe vnder the formes of bread and wine The scriptures with vs say concerning the cup in the Sacrament to all Christians rightly prepared Drinke yee all of this Matth. 26.22 and you say it is heresie to holde that the lay people must drinke thereof To proceed a little further the same Scripture in the 2. Commandement Exod. 20.4 forbiddeth as we doe both the making and worshipping of Images to represent God the father the sonne or the holy Ghost withal and you allow both these The scriptures prefer as we doe the speaking of fiue words in the Church that may bee vnderstoode before ten thousand in a tongue not vnderstoode 1. Cor. 14.19 and your Church as it appeareth in hauing all your seruice in lat in preferreth fiue words spoken there iâ— an vnknowen tongue before ten thousand spoken in the vulgar tongue of the people to their edification Lastly the Scriptures as we doe account mariage honourable among al men in al estates and the mariage bed vndefiled Heb. 13.4 insomuch that they aduouch the forbidding of it though vnder pretence of holines to bee a doctrine of Deuils 1. Tim. 4.1.2.3 yet you condemne it in your priestes as a filthie life In like maner is there a plaine contrariety betwixt your religion and the decrees of ancient and general councels In my answere to your 17. Chapter I haue shewed you already that the ancient famous first general Councel of Nice in the 6. Canon thereof is directly against that preheminence that now you giue to the Bishop of Rome ouer all Churches There also you haue heard the councell of Gangra pronounce you accursed for your doctrine against the mariage of ministers I haue also shewed you before that the 6. generall councell holden at Constantinople in the 36. Decree hath flatly determined against the principall article of your religion your Popes supremacy in determining that the Bishop there should haue equal priuiledges with your Pope or Bishop of Rome The councels also of Constance and Basil against your receiued opinion now preferred the authority of a generall Councel before the authority of your Pope And certaine it is that in the time of Charles the great there was a councel called at Franckeforde whereat the Bishops of France Germany Italie were assembled about the year as Regin writeth in his 2 booke 794 where the making and worshipping of Images allowed of by the false Synode of the Greekes as he tearmeth it was condemned And Hickmaâ—e Archbishop of Rheames writing against another bishop of that 〈◊〉 Chap. 20. somewhat about these times calleth this a general couÌ„cel called by the wil coÌ„maÌ„demeÌ„t of the Pope Emperor Charles witnesseth that not onely there the false Synode of the Greeks that made for Images was confuted reiected but also a great booke made thereof then sent to Rome As for fathers and ancieÌ„t doctors I haue plentifully shewed to be against you already for the sufficiency authority of the Scriptures Chap. 3. 5. against your real presence Chap. 11. against your doctrine of IustificatioÌ„ other points of your religion Chap. 16. And it were as easie a matter to shew theÌ„ so to be against you with vs in almost al the rest of the pointes in controuersie betwixt vs. At least this most confidently I doe aduouch that for 600. yeares you shall neuer proue them al nor halfe to be on your side in the third part of the questions betwixt you and vs and therfore you doe but too shamefully deceiue the simple people in this case with a shew bragge of that with you are of al other furthest froÌ„ The XXX Chapter OVr Sauiour Christ did approue his vocation after another sort then you doe yours a But in another place you know he saieth that the word that he had spokâ—n should iudge them at the last day Iohn 12. Search saieth * Ioh. 5. he the scriptures for they heare witnes of me he doeth not say that they are Iudges as you say for you wil haue none other arbitrator but the word of God You know that they are two different thinges to beare witnes and to be a Iudge and yet the scriptures of the old Testament doe coÌ„taine not only the verity of the doctrine of our Sauiour Christ but therewithal the very sufficient probation of his person to teach vs the true word of God to ouerthrowe destroy the whole kingdome of Sathan as it is plainely seene by those that list to looke vpon the oracles of the olde patriarches Prophets It is writeÌ„ in the third of Gen. that God saied vnto the womaÌ„ that her seede should breake downe the serpeÌ„ts head And likewise in the saied * Gen. cap. 12.15.19.22 24. booke there is mentioÌ„ made of this diuine seede of Abraham in the 15. 53. Chapters of Esay in the 2. Psalme Dauid doeth talke of it And in like maner Daniel Moses AaroÌ„ withal the rest of the prophets in their sacrifices haue very perfectly painted the coÌ„ming passioÌ„ of our Sauiour Moses left writeÌ„ in the prophecy of Iacob that the Messias should come when the roial scepter and the administration of it should be taken from the line of Iuda Daniel was not content to say as the rest that he should come b There
thereby sufficiently ratified or else gibe at it howsoeuer here you shall one day to your smart I feare find your selues to be without all excuse One tricke of your learning yet I maie not forget which you haue in the beginning of this Chapter which is this that alleadging this saying of Christ Search the Scriptures for they are they that testifie of mee you note that he saied not they are iudges but they bearewitnes of me which you tell vs are two different things This was by the way to giue vs a blow that would haue no other Iudge but the word of God And to what end would you haue the Scriptures but to staÌ„d at the barre as witnesses Truely that your Pope and your Church might sit on the bench as iudges to giue seÌ„tence as it pleased them whatsoeuer the witnesses depose But what little reason there is therein nay what blasphemy that sauoureth of you euery maÌ„ may learne by the certaine infallible trueth alwaies witnessed vnto vs by the one of the manifold errors iudged and practised by the other It is worthy the marking to see how still it grieueth you that the Scriptures or certaine word of God should sit aboue your Popes you to check controle your doings and how faine you would bring them vnder to bee iudged ouerruled by you But to answere this your obiectioÌ„ you must be put in remembrance that there is not such a difference betwixt a iudge and a witnes but one selfesame man may be both a witnes a iudge that if there be such a force in this word witnes here to driue the Scriptures to the barre to stand but amongst witnesses there is as great force in the word Iudge in another place to bring them to the beÌ„ch againe to sit as iudge Remember your selfe therfore that the same Christ that saied here that the Scripture beare witnes of him sayed Ioh. 12.48 to such as you are He that refuseth me receiueth not my words hath one that iudgeth him the word that I haue spoken shal iudge him at the last day And neuer disdaine you that the scriptures that bare witnes to Christ sit as iudges ouer you and your doings if you doe the wil not serue your turne For Christ hath tolde you what you shal trust to if you wil not stand to their iudgement here you shall one day wil you nil you be iudged by them to your smart elsewhere Wherefore howsoeuer in the end of your former Chap. you couÌ„t him a foole to be reiected that counselleth you to leaue that which you take to be the catholicke faith confirmed by the ancient Doctors general councels if he bring scripture indeed on his side you wil proue most foole if you beleeue him not This your Gerson saw therfore he hath writen that there is more credit to be giuen to one man learned in the Scriptures and hauing theÌ„of his side then either to the Popes senteÌ„ce or to the decrees of a general councel And your Abbot PanormitaÌ„ ad CanoneÌ„ Titulo de Electionibus hath the like saying But indeed whiles we labour to draw you from your errors to ioine with vs in our religion we doe not perswade you from that but to that indeed which our ancestors whom we may safely follow the Patriarches Prophets Christ his Apostles hath taught vs and which the true Church of Christ hath by her sound and faithful pastors lawful Synods and councels euer since vnto this day taught vs. This wee are sure is true For we finde our selues able by the Scriptures the sound monuments of antiquity the Cronicles of al times ages to proue and iustifie it to be so against al gaine-sayers And therfore I would wish you for fear of the senteÌ„ce of this Iudge the scriptures though you labour neuer so much to bereaue theÌ„ of that office of a Iudge amongst you that neither lacke of miracles working by vs nor the glorious dombe shewes of catholique faith Catholique Church ancient fathers and councels c. hold you any longer froÌ„ ioining hands with vs. For to pretend all these neuer so much wil no more excuse you from falling vnder the sentence of this Iudge then the like did your predecessors the hie priests Scribes and Pharisees in Christs time who by reason of such falsely pretended arguments kept theÌ„selues backe from yeelding vnto the same religion then preached by Christ and his Apostles to their vtter destruction The Lord of his infinite mercies open your eies in time and giue you once grace in simplicity of heart to search for the trueth of religion in his writen word and to leaue deceiuing of your selues others with these sounding and swelling words of vanitie Amen Your childish and grosse ouersight ignorance by the way shewed about Daniels 70. weekes in this Chapter is most pitifull For whereas he speakes but of 70 you say he did speake of 72 those you count to containe lesse yeares by 4. then they doe and contrary to al trueth of story the expresse wordes of the Angel Chapter 9. set downe by the Prophet you appoint them their beginning before the Captiuity wheras they must of necessitie beginne after The XXXI Chapter YOu a But not alone foâ— especially we comfort our selues in the goodnesse of the cause do alleage the inuincible patience of your holy Martyrs in times past for at this present if it pleased God that you did martyrizate no more soules with your false preaching then there are bodies that suffer for your doctrine your sect were nothing so dangerous as it is You glorie in your Martyrs of times past which haue sealed with their owne bloud the doctrine of that holie Cittie Geneua But in this ye are much deceaued for S. Iohn Chrysostome in his first oration against the Iewes doeth say that the paine doeth not make the Martyr but the cause for otherwise the theeues murderers might claime the like title although they suffer for another cause for we honour and loue the martyrs saieth he not for the tormeÌ„ts that they doe suffer but for that it is for Christ that they suffer for Iustice b There is no such thing there turn the place who list yet I deâ—â— not but in some other place he may write so but no wher against such as we but rather against such as coÌ„moâ—ly your fellowes be here in England who dying for t eâ—sâ—n yet you wil canonize for holy Martyrs And S. Augustine in his first booke contra Epistolam Parmeniâ—ni Cap. septimo writing against some of your fellowes that presumed to be Martyrs he doeth say that euery one is not a Martyr that is punished by the Emperour or by the king for matters of Religion otherwise saieth he the Deuils might attribute vnto theÌ„selues the glorie of martyrdome because they suffered persecution at the Christian Emperours hands when throughout the worlde their Idoles were
againe I require the voice of the sheepheard read me this matter out of the Prophets read it out of the Psalms read it out of the law read it out of the Gospel read it out of the Apostles writings in his book de pastoribus c. 14. and so likewise conclude with him I owe my consent without gainsaying onely vnto the canonicall scriptures .. cap. 61. de naturâ gratiâ and according to these bookes of the scriptures we haue learned of him to iudge freely of all other writings lib. 2 cap. 29. contra Cresconium The fathers are full of such places whereby any man may see that by their very good leaue we are not to be pressed to beleeue or receaue any thing not taught in the scriptures vpon their bare authority and therefore these and such like places in them considered if you would haue had their names the places you cite in them to haue in sadnes bred any sound credit to any of these foure points you alleadge them for either should you haue warraÌ„ted them by good proofe out of the scriptures your selfe or haue shewed vs how they proued them consonant at the least to the same Howbeit because you shall not abuse the Reader to make him thinke that the fathers you name for these matters are further of your opinion then they be indeede as I haue not refused to examine your opinion and the places you send vs vnto for your ceremonies so will I for the Christian readers sake take the paines to deale with you for in al your other 3 opinions of confession praier to Saints for the dead with it your seueral quotations set down for the proofe of the same To go on therefore according to my course begun for confession before the receiuing of the sacrameÌ„t you saie first our sauiour Christ doeth teach vs that the ecclesiasticall ministers haue authority to binde and to forgiue sins and for proofe hereof you set in your margent Iohn 20. Mat. 16. I am sure here by confession that you speake of you meane your auricular confession wherof your Tridentine councel taketh such care that that in the 6 7 and 8 Canon thereof touching this matter it solemnely anathematizeth al those that hold auricular confession not to be necessary to saluation by the law of God saying that it is but the deuise of man Which they there haue defined to be a secret reckoning vp vnto the priest of al mortal sins at the least with al their circumstances whereof by due premeditation the party can haue any remembrance whereunto they bind all persons aboue certaine yeares of both sexes at least once in the yeare and that namely in lent before their receiuing at Easter Now this confession your schoolmen and doctours do teach must be made so fullie and exactly that no sin nor circumstance thereof must be coÌ„cealed for then therby al the labour is lost and the absolutioÌ„ frustrated from al the rest Which doctrine cannot chuse but a number of waies proue a needles and a desperate tormenting of coÌ„scieÌ„ces For first it laieth vpoÌ„ them an ineuitable necessity not onelie to doe that which God neuer required at their hands but also that which either is simply impossible vnto theÌ„ to doe for the multitude of their sins and circumstances thereof or else impossible for them to doe in such maner as that they can satisfie themselues that they haue omitted no piece of due premeditation to call all their sins the circuÌ„stances thereof that they should coÌ„fesse to their remeÌ„braÌ„ce which a nuÌ„ber of your owne side most deuoutly giueÌ„ to doe this in the best maner haue bene enforced to confesse Yet this confession before the sacrament though indeed it bee a thing that hath no ground or warrant at all in the Scriptures but was as both Iohannes Scotus libro 4. sententiarum Distict 17. art 3. and Anton part 3. histatit 19 doe confesse first imposed as necessary by the Lateran councel in InnoceÌ„t the thirds time about the year of the Lord one thousand 2 hundred and fifteene you here would seeme to couÌ„tenaÌ„ce by two places of scripture co begin withal But your betters haue thought otherwise of this your kinde of confession For your glosse de paenitentiâ Distinct 5. Cap. in principio confesses plainely that it came in rather by some tradition then either by authority of the olde testament or new which tradition he saieth yet ought to binde the West Church to vse it though not the Greekes East Church which haue it not And Beatus Rhenanus in his notes vpon Tertullians booke of repentance forasmuch as hee findeth not therein anie mention hereof not onely gathered that it was not in vse then but also hee sheweth that he thought it came in after grew of the mislike of the inconueniences of the continuance of publicke confessions made in the publicke assembly in the hearing of al the congregation vsed seuerally in the former times And Soto coÌ„tra BreÌ„tiuÌ„ reckoneth vp both your other two points following of praying to Saints and for the dead this also amongst the things grouÌ„ded but vpon the vnwriten word or tradition You had therefore delt both more wisely and more simply honestly if of these and such other great Rabbins of your side you had learned to fetch the ground of this your confession from any where els rather then from the scriptures But seeing you will seeme to haue found that ground for it there which they could not let vs a little consider how fâ—ly now the places you quote serue your turne You meane I am sure both by your words and quotations that Christs doing and saying to his Apostles set downe by Matthew John in the places you quote in these words to thee speaking namely in the first place to Peter I wil giue the keies of the kingdoÌ„e of heaueÌ„ whatsoeuer thou shalt binde in earth shal be bound in heauen whatsoeuer thou loosest in earth shal be loosed in heaueÌ„ And in the other he breathed vpoÌ„ theÌ„ and saied receiue yee the holy Ghost whose sins yee remit they are remitted whose sins yee retaine they are retained Wherby indeed it is euident that our Sauiour first promised to Peter in the name of al the rest after gaue to al his faithful Apostles first the gift of the holy Ghost and then power and authority to vse the â—eies of the kingdome of heauen to binde and loose and to remit retaine sinnes which power and authority they most faithfully and effectually vsed whiles faithfully they preached saluation to the peniteÌ„t beleeuer and denouÌ„ced damnation to the impenitent vnbeleeuers with all duety as they saw cause vsing the censures of the Church of admonition rebuking suspending and excommunicating though they were neuer acquainted with your auricular confession And likewise the same power is exercised by the Lords faithfull ministers in his church still not by the helpe of your
and torments of hell it selfe that Origen speaketh of But to haste to an ende of this point Chrysostome and Augustine are yet behind it may be these speake something more directly to the purpose it cannot bee denied they doe but the more a great deale was their weakenesse and fault and neuerthelesse yours euen where it was Chrysostome is alleadged onely in his third homily vpon the epistle to the Philippians where speaking as it is euideÌ„t by his words of such as die in their sinnes and infidelity so that they go to hell where saieth he peccata exuere non licet that is they cannot put of their sinnes he exhorteth their frends aliue to mourne bitterly for such because they are with the damned all the daies of their life that so the better they may take heede of the like sinne so yet to shewe their loue and in the ende addeth defleamus istos iuuemê° eos pro viribus c. let vs mourne for these let vs to our power helpe these let vs procure theÌ„ some helpe little indeed yet let vs helpe theÌ„ How what way praying for theÌ„ let vs exhort also others to pray for theÌ„ wtout ceasing let vs giue almes for them Habet res ista noÌ„nihil coÌ„solationis this thing hath some coÌ„solatioÌ„ c. What is this to the great vnspeakeable good that you faÌ„sie coÌ„meth by your praiers and almes giuing for the dead Yea I wonder how you are not ashamed to quote vs this place for your praying for the dead seeing you your selues as iustly you may condemne as not onely fruitles but as quite vnlawful all praying and giuing of almes for such as hee speaketh of But you will saie that going on in the same place ere hee haue done he goeth further and saieth that in the celebratioÌ„ of the diuine mysteries it was not in vain decreed of the Apostles that ther should a memory be made of the departed hence they know that great good would grow vtno them hereby and how can it be but that all the people and Priests praying and lifting vp their hands to heauen and the reuerend sacrament laied there but that we should pacifie God praying for these but that which we say now we speake of them that departed hence in the faith I graunt these words there follow but yet the most that these words proue is that he thought the commemoration of the dead was instituted by the Apostles and that the doing thereof at the celebration of the Lords Supper would be very accceptable vnto God and doe them some good But in all this if you vnderstand him aright here is nothing saied for your praying for the ease of soules in purgatory For as before he spake of those that were in hel in the state of damnation so he speaketh this of those that were in the state of saluation already with Christ their king in a blessed estate and that departed hence in sure faith thereof as his owne words entring into this matter and concluding the same make it manifest For all that he speaketh of that die or are dead he deuideth onely into these two sortes hauing first taught what is to be done for the wicked vnfaithfull daÌ„ned ones then he coÌ„meth sheweth thus what is to be done for the other And therfore eueÌ„ by your own receiued doctrine speaking but of these you can vnderstaÌ„d him but of a thaÌ„keful coÌ„memoration of such in their praiers But suppose he made an other distribution of the dead into bad good and meane as you doe and that he spake these words of the meane in your sence what reason is there why you should binde vs to allow of his opinion in this and that you your selues will not allow neither of that which he taught before to be done for the damned nor of that which immediatly after these words he setteth downe of those that die being yet but catechumeni that is but learners of the catechism whoÌ„ he saith they barred of this comfort and left altogither destitute of all helpe but of one that is that almes might be giuen in their name wherby some refreshing might come vnto them whereas you saie that Ambrose did well in praying for Gratian who yet died vnbaptized Yet this you will say is somewhat that he fathereth the coÌ„memoratioÌ„ of the dead that he speaketh of vpon a decree of the Apostles I graunt it is somwhat more then you haue heard his ancient Tertullian hath done or any other before him yet be it somwhat or more you are neither somwhat nor any more nearer your purpose then you were in the beginning But to conclude with him though he 20 more such as he should neuer so often tel vs that it was decreed by the Apostles that in the celebratioÌ„ of the diuine mysteries there should such memorial or remeÌ„braÌ„ce be made of the dead they must pardoÌ„ vs if we beleeue theÌ„ not For if they would be beleeued indeede in so saying wee haue learned to say vnto theÌ„ as Aug. saied vnto such as in his time vnder such colours troubled the Church with their own fancies legite hoc nobis de lege c. Read vs it theÌ„ out of the law the prophets psalms gospel or writings of the Apostles that we may beleeue it De vnit eccles ca. 6. For euen of Chrysost himselfe we are taught so to reuerence these canonical scriptures for their sufficiency that he that cannot proue that which he saieth therby but coÌ„meth in some other way not graunted him he is a theefe hom 58. in Iohan. And therfore he is not to thinke much if we refuse to credit him in this which he can neuer proue to be as he saieth by any souÌ„d proofe either out of the scripture or else where Thus therfore to dismisse him let vs see last of al what is brought vs out of Augustine to this purpose Out of him three places are cited the first is out of his 2 booke de Genesi against the Manichees cap. 20. where there is not a word spoken of praying for the dead onely there saieth he speaking of such as haue not whiles they were here wel tilled their field but let it be ouergrowen or oppressed with thornes that such after this life shal either haue the purging fire or eternal paine by which purging fire what he vnderstandeth it is hard to gesse hee had so manie variable opinions thereof as I haue shewed before and therfore hence no good argument can be drawen to proue that he allowed the popish purgatory I am sure they are not so in loue with this place that to proue their purgatory hence they will now teach that such as he speaketh of shall go thither For how coulde he haue described the worst sort of men more liuely then he doeth those that he speaketh of For is not he an extreame bad one that hath so neglected here the field of his minde that he carieth it
and by Iohn Reuel 14. of the consumption of Antichrist and fall of Babylon shew onely that the Lorde would doe it by the spirit of his mouth in the preaching of the euerlasting Gospell That therefore is it onely that we are to approue our selues by to be the men that the Lorde will vse to that purpose And yet herein we take not vpon vs greater priuiledge then Christ For we accoūt that an especiall priuiledge of his that he was so to confirme his doctrine by miracles as that after the confirmation of it so by him his Apostles and the recording of it in the new Testament as it is it should thenceforth stand so firme that it should be an intollerable signe of incredulity amongst them especially that pretend they reuerence and receaue the scriptures as you would seeme to doe euer to require miracles more to confirme the same doctrine by You were not best therefore to perswade your selues in this sort the howsoeuer it be with your religion otherwise yet you shal be at the least without blame for your not receiuing of ours because we work no miracles Deceiue not your selues It is not with you now in respect of vs and our doctrine as it was then with the Iewes in respect of him and his Then that he was the particuler person of the Messias that therefore he being come the ceremonies of Moses law should cease and giue place to his sacraments c was a thing to be proued that by miracles because it was before prophecied whereas now those things long ago haue beene sufficiently confirmed and therefore we preaching vnto you no other doctrine but that so already confirmed and requiring no further to be credited then we can so proue our doctrine especially seeing the prophecies cōcerning these later daies shew rather y◠Antichrist and his Chaplaines shal come and seeke to preuaile by miracles then the Lords faithful pastours you haue no such reason as they had nor indeed any at all to require miracles at our hands But you say vnto vs as Augustine saied vnto the Manichees contra epist Fundam cap. 4. sola personat apud vos veritatis pollicitatio with you there is no other sound but promise that you haue the truth Whereunto adde the words that immediatly follow and you are answered For he addeth which yet if you can make appeare is so cleare of your side that it may not be doubted of is to be preferred before all those things that otherwise holde me in the Catholique Church Be you of this minde once with Augustine and then learne this one other lesson of him do vnitate ecclesiae contra Petil. cap. 3. Nolo humanis documentis sed diuinis oraculis ecclesiam demonstrari I will not haue demonstration made of the church by humane documents but by the diuine oracles And so say vnto vs as he saied there vnto Petilian let vs seeke the Church and so discusse our cause by the scriptures beholde they are common vnto vs both beholde there we haue knowen Christ beholde there we haue knowen the church c. Take this course once with vs and I doubt not whatsoeuer you brag to the contrary but we shall thereby be able to iustifie both our vocation and Religion and to make it appeare that we haue not onely a bragge of trueth with you and the Manichees but the very trueth it selfe And this being proued thē you must yeelde with Augustine that it is to be preferred before all other outward thinges whatsoeuer that haue kept you hitherto in an other Religion and church yea then you must confesse notwithstanding all your obiections otherwise against vs of nouelty paucity iars in opinion and whatsoeuer else yet it is your dueties to ioyne with vs in receauing of this trueth Wherefore vnlesse you will let all other bie matters go and enter once into this question with vs in earnest whether your Religion or ours be the trueth and for the triall thereof will stand to the scriptures interpreted according to the sound and alwaies vsed rules of interpreting them colour your refusing thus to doe with what colours possibly you can you too too grossely be wray the badnesse of your cause and euidently shewe that you onely seeke shifts hoales and corners to escape as long as you may the discredit therof And your owne frends will they nill they shal be inforced to see the same You conclude with prayer that we may drawe as neare you as we are farre from you and that we may turne to the flock of Christ the which both to your hurt and our owne you say we haue forsaken Insteede of Amen to yours I beseech the Lord of all mercies and father of our Lord Iesus Christ that it would please him of his infinit goodnes and mercy euen for his deare sonne Iesus sake to open the eies of your mindes and so to touch your hearts as that you may haue grace with vs to come out of Babylon and to leaue that garish whore of Rome with all her abhominations and so to ioyne with vs in the true communion of Saints and fellowship of the trueth and spirit that both you and we may dwell togither as brethren in one house agree and growe togither as members of one body rest togither as sheepe of one flocke vnder one father God almighty vnder one head shepheard Christ Iesus through the mighty working of the holy Ghost to Gods glory and our owne euerlasting comfort Amen FINIS A short answere to a new offer not published at the first when D. Fulke and Master Carter answered the 22. demands whereunto it is now annexed the ground and matter whereof is an enumeration of six certaine and assured signes and tokens as the offerer calleth them of Antichristians false prophets heretiques and schismatiques mentioned in diuerse places of the scripture COncerning these sixe signes welbeloued this is his offer that if by the learned protestāt they can be proued more aptly and truely to agree to him his fellowes of the commō knowen catholick church of Christ thē vnto the protestāts of so many sundry and diuers sects and congregations that then he wil submit yeelde recant and not before Learned protestant I take my selfe to be none howbeit finding as I did when I tooke first in hand to answer Iohn de Albines former discourse that the publisher thereof had therewithall published not only the offer of a proud papist to a learned protestant cōsisting of 22. challenges or demaunds long ago answered by the men aboue named but also with this new addition of these six signes and then not vnderstanding though it had beene thus abroad many years amōgst vs in English that any learned or vnlearned had vouchsafed to answer it though I thought it needles to answer againe the offer of 22. demaunds so wel answered by the foresaied mē before that the authour thereof neuer since had pleasure to reply I thought it yet
not amisse vnto my former answer to Iohn de Albine to annex this short answer thereunto His first signe of such as hee speaketh of hee saieth is their departure from the cōmon knowen catholick Church of Christ wherin they were baptized first receaued christiā faith and religiō and this to be such a signe he proueth out of the second chapter of S. Iohns first Epistle where he speaking of such saieth they departed frō vs but they were not of vs for if they had they would stil haue cōtinued with vs. Wherupon he thinketh that forasmuch as hee saieth wee cannot deny but that wee are the men that haue thus departed from their common knowen catholicke Church faith and religion wherein we were first baptized and that wee cannot say that they haue so departed from vs they still remaining in the same church faith and Religion that they first receaued that of necessity we must be enforced to graunt that this signe agreeth to vs and not to them This good Christian that he hath saied were of fome force if he any or all his fellowes togither were euer able to proue that they their church faith and Religion were such as Saint Iohn spake of when he so taxed men for their departure therfrom but seeing onely most beggerly all the packe of them this being the maine question betwixt them and vs alwaies take this for graunted them euen for their bolde impudent and importunate begging of it which we will neuer graunt them nor they shall euer be able to winne at our hands all that he hath saied herein is childish and vaine For we are alwaies most ready and willing to ioyne this issue with them for and about al the controuersies amongst vs that if we be not able by due conference of the Catholique and Apostolique doctrine taught by the Apostles Apostolicke men in the primitiue church testified and extant in their owne vndoubted writings with ours that we are of the same common knowen Catholique Church faith and Religion that they were and that the Romish Church in the thinges wherein wee differ from them is cleane departed from them and from the church of Christ her faith and Religion that then was that then we will as he saieth most willingly submit our selues yeelde and recant And I hope in answering of Iohn de Albine vpon occasion in sundry places I haue so shewed the agreeablenesse of our faith and Religion with the Apostles and the manifolde disagreements of the Church of Rome that nowe is from them and the ancient church of Rome planted by them as that euery one euen thereby sufficiently may see that not wee but they are the men that Saint Iohn spake of that haue departed from the true Church of Christ faith and Religion and that therefore this signe doeth so farre better agree to Papists then to vs that if this offerer will be as good as his worde hee must presentlie submit himselfe yeelde and recant In the meane time the manifest contrariety betwixt their doctrine and Christs and his Apostles made manifest vnto vs by the view of the scriptures thēselues and the notorious difference betwixt their churches practise now and the ancient churches of Rome for sixe hundreth yeares after Christ at the least made likewise euident vnto vs by all sound monuments of antiquity haue assured vs that in respect of them and their Romish Synagogue in these later daies to embolden vs to doe as we haue God from heauen by an Angel saied vnto vs go out of her my people least you be pertakers of her sinnes and so receaue of her punishments Apoc. 18. vers 4. And therefore as it was lawfull for Abraham to follow the Lordes calling Gen 12. to depart out of his owne cuntrey Chaldea and to forsake the abhominatiō thereof as it was wisedome for Lot at the admonition of the Angels to go out of Sodom Gen. 19. and as it was necessary that Christ and his should separate thēselues from the high Priests Scribes and Pharisees and their errours and superstitions though they then their followers bragged that they were the people of God his church so was it meete requisite for vs to depart as we haue from their Popish church and the popery thereof And as for our receauing our baptisme amongst them that bindeth vs no more to hold cōmunion with thē still in their false erronious religion then the receauing of circumcision bound Christ his Apostles those of the Iewes that beleued by their doctrine to continue felowship with the blind and superstitious synagogue of the hard harted Iewes or the receiuing of baptisme in former times at the hands of the ancient heretiques the Arriās or any other such like bound thē that were baptised by such y◠they might not separate themselues frō such to returne home againe to the true catholique church of Christ Againe if they thinke that men are bound alwaies to liue and die in that Religion whereof they were that baptized them why doe they labour by their Iesuits seminaries to seduce to their Religion such as we haue baptized But yet to touch them more neerely for all this brag of their still continuing in the faith and Religion they first receaued let euen their owne Baptisme and their faith and Religion that they after professe bee compared togither and the contrary will appeare For they being al baptized in the name onely of the Father the Sonne the holy Ghost as it is well knowen they are thereby they are bounde onely to beleeue in this Trinity in Vnity and Vnitie in Trinity and yet afterwardes all the sort of them notwithstanding the Apostles Creede and all other ancient Creeds teach them the same become plaine apostataes from this faith in beleeuing in a number both of persons and thinges that without blasphemy they cannot count either God the Father God the Sonne or God the holy Ghost Proofe and most palpable demonstration hereof is their beliefe in their owne merits merits of others Popes pardons halowed water other halowed things their beliefe in and therefore praying vnto Saints Angels In the wonderful prouidēce of God doubtles this forme of baptisme these creeds were preserued continued amongst thē not only to make it euen thereby euident whatsoeuer any of thē brag to the contrary neuer so oft that they are the men that daily depart both frō the faith of Christ first taught them their forefathers and after particulerly in their baptisme cōfirmed to euery one of them but also to make thē before both God man without all excuse of their so grosse apostacy from the same notwithstāding Wheras they know all the world els that knoweth vs know that we simply continue in this faith first deliuered vntd vs briefly by the holy catholique church in these creeds daily sealed vnto vs in our baptisme that euen for that it is that we are so hated and persecuted of
speaking of Gregory the seuenth commonly called Hildebrand and his proceedings against the Emperour Henry not only to excommunicate him but also to depose him â—ith Lego relego Romanorum regum Imperatorum gesta c. â—read and read againe the acts of the Romane kings and Emperours and yet before this I finde none of them of the Romane â—ishop excommunicated or depriued of his kingdome But 〈◊〉 we read Sigebert Abbas Vrspergensis H. Mutius and others vve shall finde that the same Bishop for this his Antichristiâ—n pride and other faultes that hee had vvas not onely wonderfully vvithstoode and oppugned by that Emperour but â—y councels also then held at Brixia Mentz and Wormes â—harpely rebuked condemned and desposed And though hee hauing thus begunne to encroch vpon the Emperour many of his successours follovved him in his very steps yet we read also in Cronicles that Henrie the fifte Fredericke the first and Fredericke the second Emperours Philip the faire and Carolus Caluus of Fraunce Henry the first and second Richard the second and king Iohn of England with sundry other Emperours and kings did notably and openly resist them therein and that they had alvvaies many learned fathers and Bishops to take their partes But to leaue this matter and to go on to others because the author of this preface and brag that I novv am in aunswering in his brag maketh speciall mention as you haue heard of their order of ceremonies and manner of praying and fasting bosting that for these they haue the holy fathers the consent of all christian nations and prescription of long continuance yea for the tvvo last the very scriptures let vs first see if wee can finde out the originall and vvithall the iust reproofe and condemnation of these First for their ceremonies none that hath but redde Platina or any other story of the liues of their popes but he hath red when how and by whom they were deuised for there is few of them for many hundred yeares together that thought as it should seeme by the vvriters of their liues that they had worthily sate in that place vnles they had deuised some newe rite and ceremony more then was before But if one goe no further then to Polidor de inventoribus rerum there shall hee finde when and by whom they had their originall whereby also it shal appeare that for many of theÌ„ they are of so late devising they cannot pretend either the testimony of ancient fathers or prescriptioÌ„ of any long time for very few of them whatsoeuer he bragges can they truly alleadge consent of all Christian regions for as they haue most of them beene deuised here in these parts of the worlde by bishops of Rome so few of them in comparison haue beene 〈◊〉 yet be receaued in the other parts of Christianity that were vnder the other Patriarches of ConstaÌ„tinople Alexandria Antioch yea euen here in these parts all their rites ceremonies were neuer yet vniuersally receaued of euery cuntry alike no nor yet of euery part of any one cuntry But they being in number so many in nature a number of them so childish and foolish yet hauing beene vrged as they haue to be vsed with such opinion and holines S. Pauls reprehension of those that were in his time so busy with the Colossians in vrging theÌ„ to keepe their ordinances the keeping whereof lay in touch not tast not handle not Coloss 2. is both a bewraying when such like ceremonies as these that he brags of first began and also a iust and a full condemnation of them Read also S. Augustines 119 epistle ad Ianuarium and you shall finde there how earnestly he hath enueied against the multiplying and bringing in so vrging of such vnnecessary rites and ceremonies shewing how few the simplicity of the gospel is contented withal And yet as it is wel known he liued 1000 years ago and that since his time there are 1000. newrites ceremonies deuised in the Romish church that he neuer had heard of yet theÌ„ he complained that there were so many and they so seruilely were vrged that the Iewes state was in that respect far more tolerable what would he haue said then if he had liued in these daies and had seene the curious infinite and foolish rites and ceremonies but of one popish priest formally doing his masse Indeed fasting is a thing and so is prayer that hath countenance of scriptures fathers Christian regions and of all ages and times but so hath not either the popish fasting or praying For their fasting is tyed superstitiously to set daies and also lyeth especially in abstinence from one meat rather then from an other their end therein being not onely to chastise the body that it may be brought the more readily feruently to obey the holy direction of the spirit as the word of God teacheth onely it should but euen thereby to satisfie either for some sin past or to earne or deserue somewhat at the hands of God Such fasting as this was that of the hypocritical pharisies wherof Christ warm â—s disciples Mat. 6.16 the first fathers teachers hereof are â—hose spirits of errour that S. Paul speakes of 1. Tim. 4. and so you â—ay there see both who first in the church of Christ found out â—ractised your kind of fasting who by by spied it condeÌ„â—ed it for hypocritical the doctrine of deuils But if you would â—aue vs to search further we tel you that after Christ his Apoâ—tles times Eusebius reports in his 5 booke 16 chapter out of Aâ—olonius that Montanus the heretique prescribed lawes of fasting he is the first that we read of that tyed fasting by law to preâ—cript daies times which is there reckoned vp by that Apolonius â—s one of his heretical deuises This Montanus was about they eare of the Lord 145. And it appears in Augustines 2. booke 13. cha of the manners of the church of the Manichees that it was the fashioÌ„ theÌ„ of those heretiques to thinke vpon their fasting daies that they fasted excelleÌ„tly though otherwise they had neuer so daintyâ—e so they abstained from flesh wine for the which Augustine doth deride theÌ„ And coÌ„sequently herein Apolonius Augustine haue shewed their dislike of that popish fasting If yet â—t should be replied as it is by some of their side that their fasting is not altogither like the condemned abstinence of these ancient heretiques others for that they abstained froÌ„ flesh vpon an opinion that flesh was an impurer creature then fish how will they theÌ„ excuse Durand li. 6. ca. de ieiunijs who giueth this as a reason of their abstinence vpon fasting daies rather from flesh then from fish because al flesh was accursed in the daies of Noe not all fish Now touching their maÌ„ner of praying for al his brag neither fathers consent of all Christian regions prescription of any long continuaÌ„ce of time
Fredericke the second Emperours Philip the faire and Carolus Caluus of Fraunce Henry the first and second Richard the second and king Iohn of England with sundry other Emperours and kings did notably and openly resist them therein and that they had alvvaies many learned fathers and Bishops to take their partes But to leaue this matter and to go on to others because the author of this preface and brag that I novv am in aunswering in his brag maketh speciall mention as you haue heard of their order of ceremonies and manner of praying and fasting bosting that for these they haue the holy fathers the consent of all christian nations and prescription of long continuance yea for the tvvo last the very scriptures let vs first see if wee can finde out the originall and vvithall the iust reproofe and condemnation of these First for their ceremonies none that hath but redde Platina or any other story of the liues of their popes but he hath red when how and by whom they were deuised for there is few of them for many hundred yeares together that thought as it should seeme by the vvriters of their liues that they had worthily sate in that place vnles they had deuised some newe rite and ceremony more then was before But if one goe no further then to Polidor de inventoribus rerum there shall hee finde when and by whom they had their originall whereby also it shal appeare that for many of thē they are of so late devising they cannot pretend either the testimony of ancient fathers or prescriptiō of any long time for very few of them whatsoeuer he bragges can they truly alleadge consent of all Christian regions for as they haue most of them beene deuised here in these parts of the worlde by bishops of Rome so few of them in comparison haue beene or yet be receaued in the other parts of Christianity that were vnder the other Patriarches of Constātinople Alexandria Antioch yea euen here in these parts all their rites ceremonies were neuer yet vniuersally receaued of euery cuntry alike no nor yet of euery part of any one cuntry But they being in number so many in nature a number of them so childish and foolish yet hauing beene vrged as they haue to be vsed with such opinion and holines S. Pauls reprehension of those that were in his time so busy with the Colossians in vrging thē to keepe their ordinances the keeping whereof lay in touch not tast not handle not Coloss 2. is both a bewraying when such like ceremonies as these that he brags of first began and also a iust and a full condemnation of them Read also S. Augustines 119 epistle ad Ianuarium and you shall finde there how earnestly he hath enueied against the multiplying and bringing in so vrging of such vnnecessary rites and ceremonies shewing how few the simplicity of the gospel is contented withal And yet as it is wel known he liued 1000 years ago and that since his time there are 1000. new rites ceremonies deuised in the Romish church that he neuer had heard of yet thē he complained that there were so many and they so seruilely were vrged that the Iewes state was in that respect far more tolerable what would he haue said then if he had liued in these daies and had seene the curious infinite and foolish rites and ceremonies but of one popish priest formally doing his masse Indeed fasting is a thing and so is prayer that hath countenance of scriptures fathers Christian regions and of all ages and times but so hath not either the popish fasting or praying For their fasting is tyed superstitiously to set daies and also lyeth especially in abstinence from one meat rather then from an other their end therein being not onely to chastise the body that it may be brought the more readily feruently to obey the holy direction of the spirit as the word of God teacheth onely it should but euen thereby to satisfie either for some sin past or to earne or deserue somewhat at the hands of God Such fasting as this was that of the hypocritical pharisies wherof Christ warn◠his disciples Mat. 6.16 the first fathers teachers hereof are those spirits of errour that S. Paul speakes of 1. Tim. 4. and so you may there see both who first in the church of Christ found out practised your kind of fasting who by by spied it condēned it for hypocritical the doctrine of deuils But if you would haue vs to search further we tel you that after Christ his Apostles times Eusebius reports in his 5 booke 16 chapter out of Apolonius that Montanus the heretique prescribed lawes of fasting he is the first that we read of that tyed fasting by law to prescript daies times which is there reckoned vp by that Apolonius as one of his heretical deuises This Montanus was about the yeare of the Lord 145. And it appears in Augustines 2. booke 13. cha of the manners of the church of the Manichees that it was the fashiō thē of those heretiques to thinke vpon their fasting daies that they fasted excellētly though otherwise they had neuer so daintyre so they abstained from flesh wine for the which Augustine doth deride thē And cōsequently herein Apolonius Augustine haue shewed their dislike of that popish fasting If yet it should be replied as it is by some of their side that their fasting is not altogither like the condemned abstinence of these ancient heretiques others for that they abstained frō flesh vpon an opinion that flesh was an impurer creature then fish how will they thē excuse Durand li. 6. ca. de ieiunijs who giueth this as a reason of their abstinence vpon fasting daies rather from flesh then from fish because al flesh was accursed in the daies of Noe not all fish Now touching their māner of praying for al his brag neither fathers consent of all Christian regions prescription of any long continuāce of time nor scriptures giue it any credit or coūtenāce at al. For first whereas now they pray al in Latine a toūg not vnderstood of most that heare vse their prayers it is a kinde of praying flatly condemned because it is without edification to such by Chrysostome Ambrose vpō the 14. of the first to the Corinthians Augustine also de Genesi ad literā li. 12. Cap. 8. ioines with them herein aduouching that no mā is edified by hearing that which he vnderstands not And the descriptions of al the auncient lyturgies in the Church shew that alwaies they were vsed in such a tongue as the people vnderstood aswell as the minister there is such mentiō of intercourse of speech one to the other as any man may see that perused the descriptions thereof yea writers both old new do plainely testify that the ancient long cōtinued vse of the church hath bene to haue
her publicke liturgy in the knowen vulgar tongue of the people For OrigeÌ„ coÌ„tra CelsuÌ„ lib. 8. writeth that the Grecians name God in greeke the Romans in the latin tongue and euery one in their natiue and mother tongue pray sing Psalmes vnto God And Hierom to Eustochium describing the solemne funeral of Pacta elsewhere to Marcella testifieth that though to BethleeÌ„ there was coÌ„course of very many seueral nations yet euery one there praised god praied vnto him in their owne laÌ„guage Insomuch that eueÌ„ Lyra vpoÌ„ the 14 of the first to the Corinthians coÌ„fesses that in the primitiue church al was done in the vulgar tongue And no loÌ„ger ago then InnoceÌ„t the thirds time in the LateraÌ„ couÌ„cel held in his time 1215. c. 9. order is takeÌ„ that where in one cuntrey there be people of diuers laÌ„guages there the Bishops should prouide them ministers to celebrate theÌ„ diuine seruice to minister theÌ„ the sacraments according to the diuersities of their rites laÌ„guages Yet further that thou maist see Christian reader in this point that the maÌ„ blusheth at nothing vnderstaÌ„d that by the coÌ„fession of their own frend Eckius in his coÌ„moÌ„ places the South IndiaÌ„s haue their liturgy in their mother tongue by the coÌ„fessioÌ„ of another one SigismuÌ„d writing of the Moscovites that they likewise haue theirs And Petrus Bellonius writing of the Armonians testifies the like of theÌ„ yea Aeneas Siluius who after was a Pope in his history of the BohemiaÌ„s c. 13. plainly shewes that a Pope was admonished by a voice from heauen to graÌ„t Cyril that conuerted Russia Moralia to say diuine seruice amoÌ„gst theÌ„ in the Shlauon tongue which was their vulgar tongue How haue they theÌ„ as he bragges these things considered either the ancient holy fathers consent of al regions or such prescription of time as he preteÌ„ds for this maner of praying of theirs in a tongue not vnderstoode of most And who can read the 14 of the first to the Corinthians vnlesse he bee disposed wilfully to be blinde but he must needes there see that this maner of praying is directly there condemned Chrysostome Ambrose Haymo Lyra and so expositours both ancient and nevv take it howsoeuer our late Rhemists in their notes would faine vvrest the place from any such meaning And in this respect suppose othervvise their prayers vvere faultles who seeth not that they giue God occasion againe to renue his â—olde complaint Esay 29. This people drawe neare vnto mee with their lippes but their hart is farre from mee of most people vvhich through their tyranny onely pray thus But in this poynt onely there is not vanity and falshoode in his bragge for othervvise if vve consider vvell their maner of praying vve shall finde both grosse vntrueth in his speech and horrible faultes in their prayers For how can it bee true that consent of fathers and the rest that he bragges of doe countenaunce that set forme of church-seruice that now they are in possession of seing neither the ancient fathers nor yet one quarter of Christendome vvas euer acquainted with it There owne authours and namely Polydor de inuentoribus rerum lib. 5. cap. 10 doe shevv hovv it came in and vvas deuysed piece after piece In the one thousand tvvo hundred yeares after Christ it vvas not grovven eyther to that full forme or credit that it is at novv For the forme of masse novv vsed commonly called Saint Gregories masse with much adoe got to be first in these westerne partes receiued in Pope Adrians time 790 yeares after Christ witnes Durand Nauclere and Iacobus de voragine and yet euen then and long after Millayn continued the vse of a forme of liturgy receiued from Ambrose Benedict the 3 that succeeded next Ioan the harlot about the yeare 857 first inuented brought in the dirge as most authors write though Gregory the 3 had done soÌ„what about it before The first allowance of the sequences in the masse is attributed to Nicolas the first that succeeded this Benedict In Alexander the 2 time Alliluiah was first suspeÌ„ded out of the church in â—eÌ„t time which was aboue 1000 yeare after Christ Our ordinary here in England secundum vsum Sarum began 1076 yeares after Christ and that as our stories shew by occasion of a bloody quarel betwixt the Abbot of Glassenbury his monkes The 7 canonical houres came in first by Vrban the second in the yeare one thousand ninety But Gregory the ninth that monstrous enemy of Fredericke the second first brought in that blasphemous canticle Salue regina one thousaÌ„d two huÌ„dred yeare more after Christ And howsoeuer these patches in the ende grevve in these partes to bee sovved togither yet the other partes of the vvorld vnder the other patriarches were litle or not at all troubled with theÌ„ And howsoeuer he shame not to aduouch that now their manner of praying is according to the scriptures Gregory l. 7. Epist 63. writes that Mos ApostoloruÌ„ fuit it was the maner of the Apostles to consecrate onely with the Lords praier which simplicity who so coÌ„pares with their stagelike dealing thereabout now he can neuer be persuaded that two fashioÌ„s so differing should both haue couÌ„tenaÌ„ce of scriptures But to make it yet more euident that of al other things he might worst haue made this brag of their manner of praying there are two great notorious faults more therein their praying for the dead to helpe theÌ„ out or to ease theÌ„ in the paines of purgatory their praying as they do to Saintes Angels For in these two points they are not onely destitute of the testimony of the holy auÌ„cient fathers consent of al Christian regions prescription of so long time as he makes shew of and the scriptures but rather al these are indeed herein against them For purgatory it selfe consequently praiers made to releeue soules there is but a very late deuise neuer yet receiued of halfe of Christendome For in William Rufus time king here of England there being a councell held at Baron there the Greek church in this point plainly discented from the Latin and neuer from that day to this could be brought herein to be of their minde whereby any maÌ„ may gather that it is a point which the Latine church hath deuised since the greek church broke of coÌ„munioÌ„ froÌ„ her that neuer yet had either consent of al christian nations or such prescriptioÌ„ of time to couÌ„tenaÌ„ce it as he talkes of And as for the scriptures let theÌ„ be perused thorow there shal not be fouÌ„d in them that bee of the canon either example of prayer or sacrifice for the dead yea rather plainely hee shal finde them alwaies vrging the time of this present life to bee the onely time to doe good in and to seeke the Lorde for our comfort euer after And as for the other point concerning their prayers to Saints departed and Angels it
the picture of Iesus or sōe of the Saints yet he cōdemneth it as contrary both to the scriptures and Christian Religion therefore perswades him not to suffer any such thing any more for it became him to banish such superstition which was vnseemely for the Church of Christ Yea Lactantius lib. 2 cap. 19. of his diuine institutions saieth flatly that their can be no Religion where there is an image he liued florished in the yeare 320. And S Augustine who liued after al these before named for he died not before the yeare 430. de consensu Euangelistarum lib. 1. cap 2. writeth that they euen deserue to erre which seeke Christ and his Apostles not in bookes but in painted wals Yea Gregory the great as they cal him Bishop of Rome though thē the painting of stories for an ornamēt of the church was thought tolerable yet he lib. 7. Epist 109. lib. 9. Epist 9. to Serenus slatly cōdemneth the adoring worshipping of images And whereas by occasiō of this tolerating of historicall painting of them through the superstition corruption of mans nature within short time by litle litle the worshipping of thē grew to be too much vsed liked of many especially in these Westerne parts of the Bishops of Rome thēselues by the yeare of Christ 700. the Emperour Leo the third in a coūcell held at Constantinople consisting of 330. Bishops there with the consent of that coūcell decreed that they should be quite remoued out of churches burnt seuerely he punishes those which notwithstanding would perseuere in the worshipping of them And the same course tooke his successour Constantine by another great coūcell held their ratifying the former two Emperours more succeeding him notwithstāding al this while the Bishops of Rome with stood thē what they might decreed as fast for the retaining worshipping of thē as they could as it appeares in Sigebert Blōdus others Howbeit though also in the time of Irene the nonage of her sonne Constātine in the east through the suggestiō of Therasius Bishop of Constantinople they got there a councell helde at Nicea consisting of three hūdreth fifty Bishops where to currie fauour againe with the Bishops of Rome who vpō the former occasiō as it appears in Sigebert others had bene a shrewd traiterous meanes to cause these westerne parts to reuolt frō the empire they decreed according to their humour for the honour of images Yet Africk Asia the greater could neuer be brought to receiue those canōs there made yea that more is though by that time the Pope had made Charles the great very much beholding to him in being the means to trāslate the empire of the west vnto him so were those canōs in this point misliked cōtradicted here in thes western parts that a coūcel in his time by his meās as the Emperour being called at Francford whereunto came many Bishops of Italy Frāce Germāy other cūtries yet there euē for this point was that coūcel of Nice reiected cōdēned as a wicked councell witnes both Regino lib. 2. anno 794. also one Hinckmare not lōg after those times Archbishop of Rhemes writing against another of his name thē Bishop of Iandune or Lauedune as some cal it ca. 20. where he for further proofe of this to be true writeth that the Bishops their assembled caused a booke of purpose to be writen sent to Rome cōteining at large a cōfutatiō of al the reasons vsed for images at Nicea which in his yoūg yeares he saw which the keeper of the Popes library Augustine Steuchus cōfesses to lie there writē in anciēt caracters de donatione Constantini lib. 2. cap. 59. nu 60. And Roger Houodē who liued 400. years ago in his cōtinuatiō of Bedeas story in the year 792. shewing how Charles sēt the canōs of that coūcel of Nice hither wherin as he saith it was decreed that images ought to bee adored which the church of God vtterly detesteth reports that one Albirus here wrote an epistle against that determinatiō maruelously grounded vpō the scriptures which he caried into France as he saith in the name of our Bishops by occasion whereof the rather it should seeme shortly after Charles thought meete to call the foresaid coūcell at Francford All these things notwithstanding neuer were images pillers and crosses more idolatrously decreed to be worshipped their nor euer were idols more grosly adored of heretiques or the very pagans and heathen then they haue bene yet be of superstitious Papists For they crouch kneele vnto them present offerings before them they run a pilgrimage vnto them and teach that they are to be worshipped with that honour that is due vnto them whose images and monuments they be though in an other manner not for their owne sakes but for theirs whose remembrances they be But indeed if in worshipping of them they did not principally respect the Images themselues why should there not be as great deuotion as many pilgrimages as great offerings presented yeelded to the image of Christ Mary or of any other aswell in one place as in an other Well howsoeuer they will do wickedly herein and when they haue done seeke to colour the matter such in truth all the worlde sees herein hath beene their dealing that Euthymius in his panoply had neuer more cause to name the Armenians 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is Idolaters to the crosse for their grosse and superstitious worshipping of it then we haue generally to count and call the Romanists flat idolaters for their behauiour towards it and other images also Thus then hoping by this that I haue said cōcerning this point that not onely thou maiest see goodreader when and how this point of popery first came in but how and by whom it hath beene oppugned but consequently also that the Romish church is herein destitute both of scripture fathers consent of Christian regions and al that she bragges of let vs see if wee can shew the like concerning the other point of forced single life vpō the clergy which she holds to be so necessary and holy an ordinance as that by no meanes without deadly sin it may be transgressed Euen in this as in the former if we search the monumentes of antiquity well we shal finde that they haue very auncient heretiques to be their first fathers leaders For the Tacianists commonly cald Encratites of their abstinence from mariage certaine other thinges who began about the yeare one hundred forty two were great condemners of mariage as appeares in Aug. ad Quodvult Deum in Epiphanius writing of them Heresi 46. After them spronge vp the Manichees who in like manner were enemies to mariage but not so vniuersally as the former for they permitted it to others and restraine onely their clergy from it whō they calde their elect as August witnesseth of them Epist 74. but indeed as many as
And so doeth Tertullian de resurrectione carnis Cap. 3. saying Auferantur ab haereticis quae cum aethnicis sapiunt vt de scripturis solis suas quaestiones fistant stare non possunt that is let those things be taken from heretiques which they holde with the heathen that onely by the scriptures they may determine their questions and they cannot stand And nothing was more vsuall and familier with Augustine against the heretiques of his time then to call them for the triall of the question both whither he or they were of the true Church also whither of them had the trueth to this way of triall by the scriptures And therefore de vnitate ecclesiae Nolo humanis documentis sed diuinis oraculis ecclesiam demonstrare I will not make demonstration of the Church by the writings of men but by the diuine oracles saieth he Cap 3. again there also he further addeth pressing the heretiques with whom hee had there to doe sunt libri dominici quoruÌ„ authoritati vtrique consentimus ibi quaeramus ecclesiam ibi discutiamus causaÌ„ nostraÌ„ that is there are certaine bookes of the Lord vnto the authority whereof we both consent there let vs seeke the Church there let vs discusse our cause To the like effect he writeth in the 2 Chapter of that booke and elswhere very often Vnles therfore they wil once bee contented to come to this trial of the controuersies betwixt theÌ„ vs we must needs tel theÌ„ that they are not desirous in earnest euer to haue it appeare which of vs haue the better cause but as men who know in their owne coÌ„science that their cause is bad they labour to maintaine the credit thereof as long as they can by cunning shifts delaies But yet let them assure themselues as long as they shun this trial how cuÌ„ningly colourably soeuer though simple fooles already besotted with superstition bewitched with popish enchantments vpon their bare worde stought bragges that it is nothing but the ancient catholicke faith that they teach may sometimes beleeue theÌ„ that yet withal those that haue any wisdoÌ„ at al by this means they leese quite both the credit of theÌ„selues their cause For faith being as it is not a wauering vncertaine conceyt opinioÌ„ of the thing beleeued but a most certain sure infallible perswasion of the trueth thereof how can any be assured that the doctrine that he beleeues is such as he may soundly firmely rest vpon for vndoubted trueth without euident grouÌ„d thereof out of the writeÌ„ word of the Lord in the canonical scriptures For theÌ„ce onely Peter dare warraÌ„t the sincere milke which caÌ„not deceiue the childreÌ„ of god to be fetched 1. Pet. 2 2. therefore that he would haue theÌ„ to desire as new borne babes doe milk that they may grow vp therby And as for the writings traditioÌ„s of meÌ„ beside hath not doth not experieÌ„ce daily teach that they may not nor caÌ„not chalenge the preeminence prerogatiue alwaies to be free from errour And euery one that is a ChristiaÌ„ hath learned that this prerogatiue al the writers of the canonical scripture had in the writing thereof therein not to haue erred at al. Who therfore caÌ„ be so simple vnles the Lord in his iustice hath blinded him because hee would not see the trueth shyning about him that he should receiue that for the sound catholicke faith that he heares not first froÌ„ point to point proued vnto him so to bee out of this vndoubted certaine word of God the canonical scriptures what shew or colour of proofe soeuer otherwise be made thereof And this Iohn de Albine could not but conceiue yet neuer once going about in this his discourse thus to couÌ„tenaÌ„ce his cause religioÌ„ but as one loth to be brought to this trial he laboureth most earnestly to discourage al meÌ„ froÌ„ appealing vnto it yet almost in euery leafe braggeth and boasteth that both his Church his doctrine and al are souÌ„d catholick Wherin howsoeuer he pleased himselfe in that his vaine any indiffereÌ„t maÌ„ may see he hath rather bewraied the weaknes of his owne cause theÌ„ any way whatsoeuer he haue saied otherwise impaired the credit of ours But how vainly hee hath swet euen to the tyring of himselfe his reader about this point in many chapters That by the scriptures controuersies are not in the church to be tried determined wheÌ„ I come vnto that place I shal god willing shew more fully In the meane time Iohn de Albine to turne my speech to you I hauing thus examined your answere to our demand how you come to your prelacies and offices and hauing found the weaknes and vntruethes thereof such as that your calling or coÌ„ming thereunto can claime no more credit thereby theÌ„ the calling coÌ„ming to their offices amongst the ArriaÌ„s Greekes whoÌ„ you count heretiques and scismatiques caÌ„ doe because they caÌ„ could say as much and that as truly for theirs as you haue here said for yours let vs now proceed to the examinatioÌ„ of the places of scripture in this Chapter quoted by you vrged as you thought stroÌ„gly to your purpose By the Mat. 5. Ye are the light of the world c. by christ spokeÌ„ properly to his Apostles you would seem to proue that therfore right successioÌ„ of Bishops pastors in the Apostolique truth in al ages in diuers partes of the world hath ben euer cleare shining like a light set on a table by that Eph. 4. Esa 62. with your book quoteth Sap. 61. very wisely you would infer that not oÌ„ly alwaies vntil Christs body coÌ„e to ful perfectioÌ„ there should be doctors pastors in the Church to teach the truth which is the most that by those places caÌ„ be proued but also that they and their coÌ„gregatioÌ„s haue euer ben known visible therby doubtles meaning so visible as the rest of your side doe wheÌ„ to this end they alleage these or the like places as that froÌ„ time to time in al ages meÌ„ may be able to naÌ„e theÌ„ and their places WheruÌ„to I answere that you stretch these places and the words therin further theÌ„ their natiue sence wil bear For the first of these is properly to be vnderstood of Christs Apostles onely who in respect of their ministery other graces of the spirit that should be powred bestowed vpoÌ„ theÌ„ to beutifie streÌ„gtheÌ„ their extraordinary ministery withall are there by Christ compâ—â—â—â—â— the light of the world to a lighted candle set vpon a candlesticke not put vnder a bushell lightning all in the house and to a city 〈◊〉 on a hil which could not bee bid all which afterward they in the â—â—ecution of their Apostleship and holy conuersation proued to be â—â—â—tles truely and iustly giuen them This was no prophesie as yoâ— would make it that their should be vntill the second comming 〈◊〉 Christ a visible and
polluted prophaned Vriah the priest ioyned with the king in the erection of a new altar in coÌ„mitting abhominatioÌ„ before the Lord though he were one that had his calling by the ordinary way of succession of priests froÌ„ AaroÌ„ Againe though Ezechiah succeeding Ahaz for his time did notably rid the Church of the abhominatioÌ„s wherw t his father had defiled it yet wheÌ„ he was dead his son Manasses his son Amon brought it to as il an estate as euer it was in so much that froÌ„ the beginning of Manasses raign vnto the 18 of Iosiahs the booke of the law of the Lord was lost which was wel nigh 80 years for theÌ„ it is noted that Hilkiâ—h the priest found it 2. King 22. In Manasses his time it is euideÌ„t Idolatry opeÌ„ly preuailed the whole Synagogue saue a few prophets their folowers erred If we proceed during the 70 years captiuity in Babylon what visible appareÌ„t shew of any successioÌ„ of Bishops pastors caÌ„ we finde the ioined togither in the exercise of Gods religioÌ„ Was not their teÌ„ple then destroied consequently did not the publick exercise of their religioÌ„ which for the most part was tied theruÌ„to cease as it was prophesied by Hosea Ca. 3. therfore lameÌ„ted by Ieremy Ca. 3. LaÌ„ WheÌ„ Christ our sauiour caÌ„e into the world surely then God had his Church For it is a most certaine article of our faith that since it begaÌ„ it hath neuer ceased nor neuer shal yet what visible succession of pastors and priests was there theÌ„ in possession of souÌ„o religioÌ„ Had not they as euideÌ„tly appeareth by the stories writeÌ„ by the EuaÌ„gelists that were in the visible personal succession corrupted the doctrine of the Messias both concerning his person and office so that they were the deadliest enemies that he had But you wil say perhaps that though these thinges were thus in the Church in the time of the olde Testament yet it may not be so in the Church now in the time of the new And why so Howsoeuer otherwise there be some differeÌ„ce betwixt the Church then and now in respect of the more cleare reuelation now then then of the doctrine of the Messias whereof that Heb. 8.6 is by soÌ„e vnderstood yet in this respect you shal neuer be able by the word writeÌ„ or any true story to proue any necessary difference vnles it be that God had tied then his promises to that peculier people his seruice in great part to their temple and that he had ordained amoÌ„gst them a priesthood to continue by natural succession so that the Church theÌ„ had more right to plead visible succession then now In the meane time thus much is gained by these stories of the Church in the time of the olde testament that this outward clearenes visible succession you talke of is not an inseparable note of the true Church for therby we haue seene it seperated ofteÌ„times from it And vnles men were peeuishly disposed to maintaine a manifest vntruth conuicted so to be both by Scripture and experieÌ„ce you would see grauÌ„t that it is as separable from the Church now since Christ For is it not plainely prophesied 2. Thess 2. that there should come a departing from the faith by the comming of Antichrist and that very great and effectual And least you should babishly foolishly as many of you doe vnderstand this of an Antichrist that towards the end of the world should come and raigne seduce men 3 yeares an halfe marke that here Paul telleth vs in his time that this mistery of iniquity did already worke which it did in that there were false Apostles there that taught men to seeke iustification partly by faith partly by the workes of the law as it appeareth by the Epistle to the GalathiaÌ„s weigh that he attributeth vnto him such things as could not be brought to passe in that space lastly consider that he teacheth that though he should be detected and fal into a consuÌ„ptioÌ„ by the Spirit of Gods mouth yet he should not be fully abolished before Christs second comming All which make it most euident that Paul here prophecieth of a longer lasting Antichristianity which should trouble the Church theÌ„ yours of 3 years an halfe continuaÌ„ce But least yet this notwitstaÌ„ding you should imagine that the fulfilling of this prophecy your faÌ„sie of perpetual clearnes vniuersality of the church may staÌ„d alwaies togither S. Iohn in his ReuelatioÌ„ describing as you al must coÌ„fesse the state of the Church seeth her in a vision by the great 7 headed DragoÌ„ driuen into the wildernes and there glad to be fed for a season Chap. 12. And he seeth the Babilonish harlot the true patterne of your Romish prelacy by which harlot he most notably setteth forth Antichrist his kingdome committing fornication not with a fewe but with the Kings and inhabitants of the earth not ruling or sitting ouer a few but as the Angel there expoundeth the waters whereon she was seene to sit people multitudes natioÌ„s toÌ„gues Apoc. 17 Al which laied togither doe plainly shew that after Christ there should grow such a defection froÌ„ the fayth in the world by the means of Antichrist that during the florishing of his kingdome the true Church and her pastours should be driuen into the wildernes and so for that time should haue in comparison of Antichrists followers small visibility and shew in the eies of the world Which we say and constantly are able to defend hath beene verified in the late florishing of your Romish Prelats Besides view the stories of the church the Cronicles of times and you shal be driuen to confesse that though the Church hath had alwaies her two witnesses Re. 11 to testifie to the trueth that they neuer could be extinguished quite by TyraÌ„ts yet she hath often beene driuen from carying any great shewe of visibility in the world For certaine marble pillers at Salmantike erected in the hill of S. Bartholomew doe witnes that Diocletian Iouius and Maximinianus Herculeus imagined when they caused them to bee erected that they then had quite layed the honour of Christ for euer in the dust and as it should seeme by the circumscriptions that they thereupon caused to bee engraued they set theÌ„ vp euen of purpose to brag that they had like great conquerers quite extinguished as they terme it the superstitioÌ„ of Christ Which they would neuer haue done if either they or their fauorites had then seene a visible succession of Bishops and pastours amongst them and had knowen their names and where to haue found them If wee go on to the time that the Arrians most florished wee shall read that the Emperour Constantius sayed to Liberius Quota pars es tu orbis terrarum qui solus facis cum homine scelerato meaning Athanasius Ecclesiast Hist Theodoreti lib. 2. cap 16. whereby it appeareth that then the
quickelie forsake your popery and ioyne with vs. to follow the interpretation of the ancient Doctours standing to that that euer the Catholicke Church hath taught not to turne at euery blast Vpon this matter one * Lib. con haer Vincentius Lyrinēsis who florished aboue a thousand yeares agone he saith thus If anie mā perchāce demaund saying Since that the rules of the Scripture are certaine b Yea and more then sufficient saieth he Marke he graunts the rules of the scripture to be sufficient how is then that true which your Andradius saieth the greatest part is left to tradition not writen sufficient of thēselues And what neede haue we thē of the authority of the Church He answereth For that saieth he that the secrets misteries of the holy Scriptures are such that euery mā doeth not vnderstand thē interprete thē after one sort but that of one place this mā that mā shal seeme to maintaine their opinions being cleane cōtrary one to another so that looke how many mē so many interpretations For one way it is interpreted by Nestorius another way by Arrius another way by Sabellius so forth according to diuers heresies that haue risen from time to time And therefore it is necessary for the knowledge of the trueth among so many errours to draw the c And for these reasons we allow of Vincentius rule vnderstanding as he doth that by the right line and rule of interpreting is ment that sence which hath the consent of the Prophets Apostles and Catholique Church for no other sence we giue of the Scriptures right line of the Propheticall Apostolical interpretatiō according to the rule true sense of the Catholicke Church This is the learned opinion of this anciēt father Vincētius Lyrinensis The III. Chapter IN the 3 Chapter you say as little to the purpose as in the second For vnderstanding by the Church the true catholique Church indeede and not your late Synagogue of Rome falsely by you so named because neither it nor the faith thereof is vniuersall neither in respect of time nor person whatsoeuer you haue writen therein we confesse to be most true and sure we are it maketh more for vs then for you For we neuer denied the ministry of the true Church to be needefull according to Vincētius rule to finde out the true sence of the scriptures and certaine we are that we are farre better able to iustifie our interpretations thereby then you are yours and he liuing a 1000. years agoe as you write we boldely affirme that you shall neuer bee able to proue that the Catholicke Church and her doctours and pastours before or in his time taught the errours and heresies now taught by yours for the which wee account yours Antichristian And yet as in the former Chapter most beggerly you begged this principle that your doctrine is the ancient Catholicke faith so here in this you begge this also that your Church is the true and vndoubted Catholicke Church But you must vnderstand howsoeuer your owne frendes will giue you at your first asking both these that yet we will graunt you neither of them both And therefore writing as you would seeme purposely against vs you should not thus miserably alwaies haue begged them at our handes but by sound and iust proofe at least haue endeuoured to proue that you had iust right thereunto and then with some more honestie and credit might you haue gone on in this supposall that they are yours This also you must vnderstand that when it is in question which is the trueth of Religion yea euen in the fundamentall points as indeede it is betwixt you and vs it is alwaies also in question which is the Church of Christ For as both parts imagine they haue the trueth so will they perswade themselues that they are the true Church Your frendes also and all others must bee aduertised that it is no newe thing for damnable heretiques to brag much both of the truth of the titles of the Church of the doctours thereof least through too much simplicity they think streight that you haue al these things on your side because you haue them so much and so often in your mouthes For as Cyprian writeth Epist ad Iubaianum de baptizandis haereticis the Nouations after the fashion of apes challenged vnto themselues the name of the Church and all other they called heretiques And we reade that in the time of Arius Macedonius and Donatus these heretiques accounted themselues the onely Christians and that the true Christians indeede were counted by them Homousians Macarians Caesarians and Caecilianists So doeth Tertullian de Prescrip aduersus haereticos testify that the heretiques did in his time So did the Donatists saieth August Contra Epist Parm lib. 2. cap. 1. and Epist 161. and he writeth Cōtra Epist Fundamenti cap. 4. that amongst the Manichees there was great brags of the trueth Bernard also in his 66. sermon vpon the Cāticles speaking against certaine filthy heretiques that condemned mariage and superstitiously absteined from meates yet saieth that they gloried that they alone were the body of Christ bragging also that they were the successours of the Apostles and Apostolicke the Church of Christ And indeede wee finde nothing more vsuall with the ancient hereticks then to boast that they had the Church and Catholique trueth on their sides And very vsuall we finde it also with them to stand much vpon fathers in the defence of themselues and their heresies For it appeareth in the Councell of Calcedon the 1. Action that Eutiches bragged that he had reade Cyprian and Athanasius yea that then and there he confidently saied for his defence that he had so learned of his ancient predecessours and that he had beene baptized in that faith had liued and hoped to die in it And we reade in the 4. Action of the same councell that Carosus an Eutichian heretique saied stoutly I beleeue thus according to the exposition of the 318. fathers and so was I baptised Dioscorus also in the 1. Act of that Councell cried and saied I haue the testimonies of the holy fathers Athanasius Gregorie and Cyrill on my side I go not from them in anie thing I am cast out with the fathers I defend the fathers doctrines I haue their testimonies euen set downe in their bookes for me And as we reade in August contra Cresconium the Donatist 2. booke cap. 23. and in his 4. booke cap. 17. he cited for himselfe Cyprian and it seemeth that Maximinus the heretique against whom August wrote vsed to alleadge for his defence the councell of Ariminum and therefore Augustine saieth vnto him Neither will I obiect the councell of Nice against thee neither oughtest thou to obiect that of Ariminum against me 3. booke 14. chap. What a vaine thing is it these things considered for you and your fellowes then to carie away the simple vnder the bare titles of Catholique trueth Catholique Church
Catholique faith Catholique Bishops succeeding one another When as indeede and trueth it is as impossible for you to proue that you haue any iust right to anie of these as it was for those heretiques But howsoeuer you make some beleeue you haue all these yet I say vnto you with Saint August De vnitate Ecclesiae against the Epistle of Petilian chap. 10. That euen Catholique Bishops are not to bee consented vnto if that anie where they be deceiued in thinking anie thing contrarie to the Canonicall Scriptures And therefore when all commeth to all and when otherwise you haue runne your selues out of breath in conclusion will you will you by these Canonicall Scriptures must it bee determined whither you haue anie right to anie of these or no. For if you appeale from them as indeede you doe to the Church and fathers they will sende you backe againe for the triall whither that which they speake bee true or no onelie to the Scriptures as it maie appeare vnto you not onelie by this one place which I haue cyted out of Augustine alreadie but also by a number such like places both to bee founde in him else where and also in others For you maie reade in the first booke and seuenth Chapter of Theodoret that when Constantine sawe great controuersies in the Church in the Nicene councell and perceaued that euerie seuerall companie bragged of the trueth and so also of the Church and fathers to bee on their side to ende all those controuersies he saied Ex diuinitus inspiratis oraculis quaeramus solutionem eorum quae proponuntur that is out of the oracles that are come by diuine inspiration thereby meaning the Canonicall Scriptures let vs seeke the determination of those thinges that are propounded and so they did And as Constantine the Emperour was of this minde so it appeareth that Athanasius was of the same For to Serap hee saieth Solum exsacris literis condiscas meaning that the holie Ghost is God sufficiunt enim documenta quae in illis reperias Thou maiest learne it onelie out of the holie Scriptures for the documents or lessons which thou maiest finde in them are sufficient And Origen vpon the 16. to the Romanes in his tenth booke agreeing herein with these saieth that onely by the holie Scriptures the difference of trueth from errour in the examination thereof is to bee discerned And yet more plainely the same Origen in his first Homilie vpon Ieremie writeth of necessitie wee must call for the testimonie of the Scriptures for our senses and declarations without them as witnesses haue no credit Well therefore saied Augustine de naturâ gratiâ cap. 61. Onelie to the holy Scriptures doe I owe my consent without refusall And therefore franckely hee telleth Hierome in his nineteenth Epistle that hee had learned to yeelde that honour onely to the Canonicall Scriptures to thinke that the authours thereof therein neuer erred Where he plainly sheweth vs by his example how we should reade his writings or the writings of any other father namely beleeuing that which they wrote no further then we see it by scripture confirmed or by probable argument not dissenting from the trueth And the like he teacheth yet more plainelie in his 111. 112. Epistles to Fortunatus and Paulinus in the proeme of the third booke of the Trinity Wherefore with the same Augustine I confidently say and write whither of Christ or of his Church or of any thing that appertaineth to our faith and life I will not say wee that are not to bee compared with him that saied though wee but as hee addeth though an Angell from Heauen shall preach any thing besides that yee haue receaued marke hee saieth not contrarie but besides in the legall and Euangelicall scriptures let him be accursed in his third booke against Petilian cap. 6. Yea your owne Vincentius in the very place quoted by you denyeth not but taketh it for graunted that the scriptures of themselues alone are sufficient for all things yea and more then sufficient Whereupon it is euident that Vincentius by the rule line and true sence of the Catholique Church that there he speaketh of vnderstandeth onely such a sence or line as agreeth best with the scriptures themselues and the right rules of the interpreting of them wherof more afterwards In the meane time howsoeuer Vincentius his meaning was Augustine an ancienter father more famous somewhat then he speaking of the rule of faith that alwaies in interpreting of the scriptures men must haue an eie vnto and be ruled by saith that it is euen that which is taught in plainer places of the scripture de doctrinâ Christia lib 3. cap. 2. de trini lib. 1. cap. 2. 4. Yea in the same Augustine de doct Christ lib. 2. cap. 6. distrinc 37. c. Relatum we may reade noted out of ClemeÌ„t that the church is not to receaue any fence for the true seÌ„ce of the scriptures which caÌ„not be proued so to be out of the scriptures theÌ„selues And therefore all interpretation of scripture newe or ancient deliuered by the fathers in former time or receiued of their children of this later age must and ought according to this rule and line bee iudged catholique or not The IIII. Chapter Cant. 1. WHose discourse doeth make me remeÌ„ber the complaint that the soule doeth make vnto her Spouse Iesus Christ beeing both represented by Salomon and his legitimate spouse I pray thee saith she O my deare frend tell mee in what place thou doest lie and rest at noâ—â— daies for I would be very glad and desirous to follow the flockes of thy felowes The which is as much to say as if she meant thus I see many shepheardes in these mountaines which haue great abundance of sheepe I see those of the Roman Church I see Donatistes I see Nouatians or to speake of our time I see one flocke follow Luther another follow a The Caluenists Zuinglians and Sacramentaries are commonly amongst you taken for one yet here that the variety of opinions may seeme the greater you reckon them vp as three distinct sorts Zuinglius another follow Caluin another the Anabaptists another the SacrameÌ„taries so forth diuers others of whoÌ„ wheÌ„ I demauÌ„d particulerly Whose is this flocke they do al answer me It is of Christ euery 〈◊〉 saieth this is the catholicke Church euery one doeth say that he is his fellow that is to say as touching the guiding of his flocke Now it is not possible that they doe al teach the trueth considering how they varie among theÌ„selues therefore I doe desire thee to tell me where thou doest rest thy selfe at noone daies That is as much to say teach me which is the true Catholicke Church which doeth celebrate the true misterie of the Crosse which is the place where thou wast nailed at noone daies beeing nailed both handes and feete Heare now the answere of Iesus Christ If thou doest not know the place
suffering their Croniclers to mention them or else in causing them to deface them with strange name and false slaunders maketh it very hard yea if impossible no marueile you hauing the euidences whereby we should doe it for the most part a long time in your owne keeping to vse at your owne pleasure for vs to name from time to time the places and persons that haue alwaies succeeded one another for the continuance of our faith and Church But to returne againe to the consideration of this place of the Canticles further I saie as I saied before that you erre in alleadging this or any other place of the Scripture to proue that the Church of Christ may safely account those flockes in possession of the trueth and therefore to bee followed and those sheepheardes true sheepheardes and therefore meete alwaies to bee consented vnto that lineally downe from Christ can deduce their personall succession For so as I haue shewed in the first Chapter and it is not denyed of your selues sundry heretiques in their times haue done and can doe still If therefore you say you meane still that flocke and those sheepheardes that together with their visible personall succession haue alwaies beene in possession of the true ancient faith I answere first you begge still the thing in question in supposing that to haue beene alwaies ioyned with your flockes and sheepheards which we say and are able to proue they fell from many hundreth yeares ago Secondly I tell you once againe and now this time for all that you shall neuer bee able to proue but that both that personall succession may bee separated from trueth and also trueth from it and that therefore it is neither a certaine meanes to knowe the trueth nor the Church of Christ by Thirdly for your collection out of this place for the iustifying of your Church before ours because as you say from time to time for this thousand and fiue hundreth yeares you can shew the descent and continuance of yours and we cannot of ours for one hundreth yeares no not beyonde the yeare one thousand fiue hundreth and seuenteene we affirme that both in the one and in the other herein you write vntruely For first if your Church as it is now either in respect of the doctrine or gouernement thereof bee compared with the ancient Roman Church in the Apostles times or for many hundreth yeares after there is such diuersitie betwixt the one and the other as that the one beeing founde the chast spouse of Christ the other must needes bee proued to bee the very whoar of Babylon The simplicity of the ministerie that then was is turned amongst you into a pompous Lordly and more then Princely prelacy And then the Church was fedde with the pure worde of God conteyned in the Scriptures and so ledde thereby perfectly to vnderstand the will of God and with you as carefullie as may bee that is kept from her and in steede thereof shee is fedde with the dreames inuentions and traditions of men Then she was taught to account the name of Christ the onelie name whereby commeth saluation Act. 4. and therefore that in him all thinges were prepared Math. 22. and now with you besides him Saintes Angels your owne merites and the merites of others satisfaction in this life by your selues and after by others with a number of baser things must ioyne with him in the office of intercession betwixt vs and God and in the most glorious worke of our saluation as though hee either could not or would not go perfectly through with the worke of our saluation in himselfe and by himselfe but had so begunne it as that the accomplishing and perfecting thereof were left to these vaine and foolish by-meanes Then her faithfull doctours and teachers taught her that Christ in saying Hoc est corpus meum this is my body meant that it was a signe figure of his body as you may reade in Augustine against Adimantus the Maniche cap. 12. and in Tertull. against Marcion cap. 4. and in infinite places elsewhere in the ancient fathers and now contrary to nature yea to the verie nature of a sacrament contrary to the analogie of faith and good manners yours teach that those wordes being vttered by your Priestes thereupon followeth such a transubstantiation of the bread into his bodie that whosoeuer receiueth the outward parte of that sacrament receiueth in by his mouth the naturall bodie of Christ If thus I were disposed to go a long as farre as I might and to leade the reader to a full view of the difference betwixt the Romish Church that nowe is and that which hath beene I should euen therewith make a great booke But further of these differences I haue noted as you may reade Chapter 19. 20. and else where in this booke And Doctor Fulke against Stapletons Fortresse hath noted out of Bede and other authours of good credit 50. differences betwixt the church of the English Saxons in the time of Augustine the monke who was 600. yeares after Christ at the least and the Popish church that now is and infinite be the differences then betwixt the Church before in her puerer times and the Popish Synagogue now And therefore whatsoeuer you bragge neither you nor all your fellowes shall euer be able to proue indeede that your personall succession hath beene ioyned with the continuance of one and selfesame doctrine of Christ vnto these daies And to come to the other point therein I saie you write vntruely also For so far of is it that we graunt Luther to haue beene the first that preached the Gospell that wee now embrace and that wee cannot shewe by whom and where it was preached and receaued before that there is nothing more common with vs in answering this your obiection of newnes then to tell you that so farre of is it that it is newe indeede that it is the very ancient Religion and Gospell taught both in the olde testament and newe and therefore though it grieue you wee tell you that the ancient Patriarches and Prophets Christ and his Apostles taught the verie same and no other and all the ancient doctours and fathers as farre forth as they were able to iustify that which they taught by the Scriptures were sheepheardes of our church and teachers of our Religion Indeede we confesse that as Hilkiah the Priest in Iosiahs time 2. King 22. found the booke of God and was so a meanes to bring those thinges to light that by the wicked proceedings of Manasses Amon and others had for a certaine season lien hid So Luther in these late daies was a singuler instrument of God to reuiue and bring to light diuerse pointes of Christian faith which your Antichristian Synagogue had long laboured to smother and hide from the eies of the Church And yet hereupon it no more followeth that he was the first that preached our Religion then vpon the former it followed that Hilkiah was then first the
meanes to preach the lawe of God And I tell you truely that I cannot maruaile yet sufficientlie that anie man of anie reason iudgement and learning as you would seeme to bee should be so farre past all shame as confidently to set downe in print that wee cannot deny but that Luther 1517. began first our Church and Religion that we can name none 100. or 200. yeares before that taught it when you cannot be ignorant vnlesse your ignorance be verie grosse that we name vnto you verie manie and that in all ages to haue beene of the same Religion and Church that wee are now of For first there is nothing more vsuall with vs then to tell you that all the ancient Patriarches Prophets Euangelists and Apostles witnesse the canonicall Scriptures liued and died in our Church and Religion The same opinion wee tell you wee haue of all the Christian martyrs whose number is infinite that were slaine in the first 300. yeares after Christ vnder the 10. bloudy persecutions that were in that time For during that time our Religion was onelie professed and embraced in the Church and verie little or nothing was there of those opinions for the which especiallie wee account your Religion Antichristian vnlesse it were of heretiques and such as had learned it of them in those daies once thought of And after for three hundreth yeares more at least in all the most substantiall pointes of Christian Religion and the greatest questions betwixt vs and you all the ancient doctours and the Christians that liued in their times as wee haue diuerse times sayed so haue wee often so proued it that you shall neuer bee able therein to disproue vs were fully ours And though after these times when Boniface the third had once obteined of that traiterous murderer Phocas the Antichristian title of Oecumenicall or vniuersall Bishop the mysterie of iniquity did euery day work more plainelie then other hasted to his height yet as I haue shewed in my answere to your publishers preface and in the sixteenth Chapter of this my answere to your selfe where you bragge againe as you doe here of 1500. yeares antiquity and continuance there were after these times from time to time that both spied the growth and proceeding thereof and set themselues against it For Bertram Iohannes Scotus were with vs against your grosse real presēce aboue 700. years ago Trithemius maketh mētion of a booke writen 400. yeares ago which is supposed was writen by one Arnulphus for as Sabellicus and Platina testifie much about that time was hee put to death of the Romish cleargie in which booke the authour grieuously complaineth of the enormities amongst the saied Cleargie and findeth many faultes in the Romish Church Gisburne also in his storie writeth that in the yeare 1158. Dulcinus Nauarensis and Gerrhardus preached earnestly that the Pope was Antichrist and that they had thirtie followers whom they brought into England who were persecuted then here for preaching that and other such like doctrine against the Romish Church Much about this time but somewhat rather before a company of Christians who by your Prelates were nickenamed Albigenses did florish and there were great multitudes of them euen about Tholossa whereof you Master Albine are called Archdeacō who did vehemently resist your Pope and his proceedings setting vp vnto themselues a Bishop whom they called Bartholomew oppugning the grosse pointes of your Religion euen as wee doe witnesse Nicolas Triuet and others in their Stories Hildegarde though shee were a Nunne yet in the yeare 1146. prophesied the ruine of your kingdome at Rome and bitterly inueighed against the wickednesse of your Cleargie and Friers So did Geffery Chaucer about the same time namely in his Dialogue called Iacke Vpland very saltly taunt and deride the vanity of your frierly superstition In the yeare 1164. was Petrus Valdus a citizen of Lions whose followers after had giuen them diuerse names to disgrace them withall For your frendes call them Waldenses Albigenses pauperes de Lugduno Picardos Boslauienses Thaboritas and Leonistas changing their titles and names according to the diuersities of places and times they liued in howsoeuer their Religion was all one And these haue beene of ancient time and of great continuance in very many places namely in Prouince Sarmatia Lyuonia Bohemia Morauia Polonia Silesia Belgia and in Calabria and of you wheresoeuer or whensoeuer they were they haue beene cruelly persecuted for heretiques and yet if their opinions bee iudged of not as you the more to disgrace them haue charged them but as they in their owne confessions of their faith and Apologies haue set them downe they in many thinges helde the verie same that wee doe and condemned the same for errours in you that wee now doe They are of 400. yeares continuance at least For Aeneas Syluius a man of your owne for he was Pope ere he died writeth handling the stories of Boeme that they had continued vnto his time from the yeare 1160. And Gulielmus Paruus writeth that their doctrine was examined in Oxforde and found sound concerning God and the merites of Christ for your doctrine concerning the iorning of our owne merites with Christes to make vp full satisfaction and redemption is of farre later inuention and their life saieth hee was commendable but in the doctrine of the Sacrament they were found to differ from the Church of Rome Yea Reinerus a writer 300. yeares ago who as he himselfe saith was often at the examination of them in his booke of inquisitions writing of them calling them Leonists confesseth that some saied they had continued from Syluesters time and that some saied they had beene euen from the time of the Apostles he further reports that they had great shew of holy life in liuing iustly before men and that they beleeued all things well of God and all the articles contained in the creede onely he chargeth them that they hated blasphemed the Romish Church And this he further writes that there was no land wherein that sect did not creepe speaking but of thē that were thē but in one cuntrey yet this he testifieth that they had there ten schooles in one parish called Camach that there were forty congregations or Churches of them euery one hauing their leaders or teachers and that their power in his time was such that none as hee saieth durst then openlie resist them There are yet to bee seene as good authours report the consultations and records of the proceedings of foure great Bishops in France against them writen three hundreth yeares ago namely of Narbonensis Arelatensis Aquensis and Albanensis yea 355. yeares ago I read there was a Councell kept in Tholossa especially against them And yet though both of ancient times and later daies the Synagogue of Rome hath sought to roote them out by all possible cruelty they and their successours continue vnto this day in great numbers in Bohemia and in other places But because you very
since Augustine the monkes comming into England as I haue saied and for 300 yeares after him your glorious succession must faile there are so many apparent differences for so long space at least betwixt the opinions that your pastors and doctors hold now and them that were held then Take heede therefore whiles you measure thus to vs and so seeke to disgrace them whose names we cite that the same be not measured to you againe so the necke of your visible Succession be broken to the perill of the life of your Church which draweth her breath thereby Now to come to your disgracing of our Church with the difference of opinion betwixt Luther and Zuinglius and your laying to our charge all the heresies that haue sprung vp since Luther began first to preach against you therein do you vs manifold wrong For who knoweth not that it is no strange or new thing to finde the deare seruants of God and the true members of Christs Church sometimes and in some things differing and hoatly dissenting in opinion Doe we not read Mat. 16. that one thing seemed good to Peter and the contrary seemed and was indeed good in Christs iudgement Did not Peter take one course and Paul another at Antioch Galat. 2. insomuch that Paul there rebuked Peter openly and sharpely And finde we not Act. 15. Paul and Barnabas growen to that heat of contention about the receiuing againe or refusing of Iohn Marke that they parted companies And if we leaue the Scriptures and go downe to later times and view the state of the Church euen in the purest times thereof we shall finde it no strange thing to see diuersities of opinions and therefore also hoat contentions betwixt those whom yet we will and must account the true members of the Church Betwixt Polycrates Victor the East and West Churches Irenaeus and certaine other Bishops of France and some Popes the contention about the obseruation of Easter was such Euse 5.21.22.23.24 that one side excommunicated another that diuers Synods were held to appease it and yet it cōtinued 300 yeares more And who knoweth not that there was contention betwixt Cypriā other Bishops of Africke Cornelius Stephanus Bishops of Rome for that they euē thē at Rome encroched too much as the other thought to intermeddle within the iurisdictiōs of the Bishops of Africke in receiuing condēned excōmunicated fugitiues that ran to Rome frō thence Neither was the controuersie small betwixt them about the rebaptizing of those that had beene before onely baptized by heretiques For proofe of both which points I refer you to the third and fourth Epistles of Cyprians first booke of Epistles and to the first Epistle of his second booke and to the third and fourth Chapters of Eusebius seuēth booke Basil also and the Church of Caesarea as it is well knowen were at hoat contention about Ecclesiasticall songes and ceremonies Theophilus of Alexandria and Chrysostome of Constantinople had betweene them a violent and troublesome contention and great part taking there was of both sides and that along time Cyrillus of Alexandria wrote against Theodoret in a controuersie of Catholicke religion Betwixt Miletius a Bishop of Aegypt and one Peter of Alexandria and their followers of both sides there arose and continued a long whyle to the great trouble of the Church a lamentable contention All Ecclesiasticall stories for the most part haue with griefe made report of these yea downe from Christ to the age wherein euery one of them wrote it too plainly appeares in them that there was neuer yet any one century of yeares but it hath had new contentions and those many not onely betwixt heretiques and catholickes but also euen amongst those that otherwise of both sides were to bee reputed sounde Christians Hierom and Augustine as all men will confesse were in their times worthy so to be accounted and yet it appeareth in their works that there was great diuersity of opinions and that in many things of great moment betwixt them Epiphanius Bishop of Cyprus and Chrysostome of whom I spake before were both famous Christians and yet the stories of their tymes shew that they were bitter enemies It is notoriously knowen that amongst the Bishops assembled against the Arrians at the councell of Nice Constantine by the bookes offered vnto him one against an other found that they then had amongst themselues many contentions and varieties of opinions and infinite it were to reckon vp all the examples that might easily be found to this end Indeede I reade for these and such like differences the Iewes and Heathen people mocked at the Christians and hereby sought mightily to deface them and their religion seuenth Stromat Clement Alexandrini But I neuer read that either then or since euer any sounde Christian though for this cause they tooke occasion to mourne yet that they or any of them tooke occasion to condemne either the one side or the other or both as not to be therefore at all of the Church of Christ For notwithstanding these differences they saw that they ioyned togither otherwise as brethren in holding togither the fundamentall pointes And that they whom you call Lutherans Zuinglians doe so the booke of late set forth of the Harmony of the confessions of all the Churches that hereabouts professe the Gospell doeth make it most manifest and euident And therfore for any force that this reason carieth with it this their differēce which is in effect only about the maner of the presēce of Christ in the Sacramēt they both may be mēbers of the true anciēt Catholick Church as wel as these other whō I haue named Another wronge that herein they offer vs is this that beeing themselues at variance amongst themselues and hauing had many and great contentions and yet hauing still some about as great a matter of religion as this that yet forgetting the beame in their owne eies like hypocrites they are so busie with the moate in ours For who so readeth the histories of their Popes writen by their owne frendes besides a number of hoat and contentious schismes troubling all Christendome for many yeares togither yea sometimes fourty years continuing betwixt their Popes Antipopes he shall finde it so common a thing for the succeeding Pope to contrary the proceedings of his predecessour as though the chiefe glorie of their papacy lay in that and therefore poore Gratian tooke a combersome worke in hand to make a concorde of such discording Canons Their religion considered it is one of the greatest controuersies that can be whither the pope or a generall councell haue the superiour authority and so must be the carier of the Churches tongue to decide and determine controuersies and yet euen in this controuersie they are so at concorde that the councell of Constance and Basil determined one way and the councels of Florence and Ferraria the other way and yet both sides hath his stout champions The Scotistes and Thomistes many an
pretend you would yeelde vnto them in this point and so spare much labour that you bestowe to get credit to your traditions vnwriten Which if you would once be brought vnto we should quickly by the sole and sufficient authority of the scriptures haue a faire hand of you Which you espying whatsoeuer otherwise you would seeme to account of the fathers to bleare the eies of the simple in this they shall keepe their iudgement to themselues for you like it not So that this and such your like dealing with them caused one once to tell you that the fathers are vnto you as counters in the handes of him that casteth an account according to whose will and pleasure sometimes one and the selfesame counter standeth for an ob that stoode immediately before for a pound or more So with you when it pleaseth you an ancient fathers testimony is of great weight and when it pleaseth you againe 20. of their testimonies are nothing Howbeit I hope the indifferent reader by these testimonies doeth will perceiue that you wonderfully seeke to abuse Gods people when yet you would perswade them at anie time that the ancient fathers are fauourers and patrons of your vnwriten traditions And I trust this may serue to make it sufficiently appeare that in the iudgement of these ancient fathers your Andradius may be ashamed to write as he hath scripto suo aedito tempore Tridentini coÌ„cilii That the greatest part of Catholicke Religion is left vnto the traditions of the church not writen and that your Lyndan was extreame mad or very drunke when he wrote It is most extreame madnes to thinke that the whole and entire body of Euangelicall doctrine is to be searched out of the Apostolique letters writen with inke out of the litle booke of the new testament Panopl lib. 1. cap. 22. But thus to make vnwriten traditions sometime equall sometime superiour in authority to the canonical scripture that vpoÌ„ this ground that al trueth is not sufficieÌ„tly taught therein you haue learned of the Encratites Manichees and of the Montanists Valentinians and others as it appeares in them that wrote against them And yet O good God what a stir now of late this Andradius Lyndan other such your great champions haue made what cost they haue bestowed to drawe men from that estimation that these fathers had of the authority and sufficiencie of the canonicall scriptures in making large treatises and discourses to shew that the authority therof depends of the testimony and authority of the church that they are not sufficient no not halfe sufficient for the direction of the church either for Religion or conuersation and that they are obscure hard to be vnderstoode all vpon this occasion that will they nil they they are driuen to perceaue that their opinions wherein we differ from them cannot any longer bee defended by the scriptures for al their sophistrie cunning and that therefore they see they must maintaine the credit of theÌ„ by the authority of the church her vnwriten traditions which they may say to be what they lift or that else they must be driuen to throw vs the bucklers and to run out of the field But you doe fouly deceiue your selues if you thinke in this great light that men espy not that this is a shamefull shift and which argueth that your cause is euen giuing vp the ghost that you caÌ„ hold out no longer vnles it be by preferring the authority of the church the wife before Christ the husband by giuing her your commission to sit as iudge ouer her husbands word to adde there unto and take therefrom how what seemeth good vnto her And your fault herein is the more intollerable because by the church you vnderstand alwaies your popish Synagogue that now is For euen children may see that you are very farre driuen when there is no other remedy but you must thus open your mouthes and prepare your pens to disgrace his writen word which all meÌ„ know to be his word indeed without question for the gracing countenancing in this sort of that which though you call his worde you are neuer able to proue to be so And for this who seeth not that we may iustly say of you as Tertull Apolog. 5. saied of the heathen in his time Apud vos de humano arbitratu pensitatur diuinitas nisi homini Deus placuerit Deus non erit homo iaÌ„ Deo propitius esse debebit that is with you the godhead is esteemed of as man shall thinke good vnles God please man he shall not be God man now must be good to God Howsoeuer you are ashamed thus grosly with these prophane pagans to speake yet it is euident in that you still say write that the writen word of God is inferiour in authority to the church hath the canonical credit from thence that the sence thereof is must be whatsoeuer your Bishop of Rome for the time being doeth define determine so to be relying stil vpon vnwriten traditions bearing men in hand that they are as well the word of God as the canonical scriptures as you doe al meÌ„ whoÌ„ your enchantmeÌ„ts haue not bewitched made blind may see that in effect you are as grosse as they of whom these words were truely writen This once we knowe to be his word which wee finde set downe in the Canonicall scriptures we are sure this was writen by the direction of Gods Spirit for the information of the Church And we cannot be ignorant but that this Spirit of God foresawe what dangerous heretiques there would bee which if they were not preuented by leauing the word of God fully in writing vnder the pretence of vnwriten traditions would bring in damnable heresies And therefore seeing it is euident vnto vs that he in these writings begaÌ„ to leaue instruction vnto vs to settle vs in the certaine trueth we know he could go thorow with it because he is God the fountain authour of all wisedome trueth are sure that he was willing because he perfectly loued the church by Christs promise by the ministry of the Apostles was to leade it into al trueth we must needes thinke it flat blasphemy to think that the writeÌ„ word of God is any way vnsufficieÌ„t for the full direction of the Church in all matters And therefore howsoeuer you please your Sects in this deuise of yours in feighting thus for the traditions of the Church thinke not to the contrarie but any man of meane iudgement will discrie both your vâ—â—â—tie and impiety therein by making this reason in his owne minde vnto himselfe The spirit of God in the writers of the Scriptures sawe it good and necessary to leaue the worde of God for the full direction of the Church in all matters writen by that is done and writen it is cleare hee tooke it in hand and to take it in hand
before vs agreeing in vnitie of faith as I haue already said For neither the naughtines of h There is no such there mentioned this is your common hap in your quotations It seemes you would haue said 2. Kings 16. Achas Num. 1. nor of Ioram nor of diuerse other great sinners which are inrolled in the booke of the generation of Iesus Christ were not able to withstand the fulfilling of the promise of God made to Abraham that is to saie that he would be borne of this line Euen so the ill liues and conuersation of diuerse wicked Popes that haue followed after Saint Peter haue neuer beene a This is true and yet you neuer the nearer For though al Papists faile in faith yet his church neuer faileth able to moue Christ to breake his promise that is to saie that the faith of his Church should neuer faile Math. 16. and that the gates of hell that is to saie of infidelity which are the portes of damnation should neuer preuaile against it b I see not how that chapter or any thing therein serueth to this purpose any whit at all Esay 58. Our aduersaries therefore that take such great paines to set forth in golden legends the liues of the wicked Popes that haue beene since Saint Peters time thinking thereby to ouerthrowe the succession of the Catholicke ecclesiasticall faith c Your comparison is odiou◠neither doe wee lay open their wicked liues to that ende you speake of but to shew that your glory is your shame doe no lesse offend God then if they should go about to proue the promise of God made to the Patriarches to bee vaine because of the evill liues of their successours Therefore those that doe reproche vnto vs now that the Popes of our daies are not altogither so holie as S. Peter wee doe confesse it But they cannot deny or they will confesse vnto vs that the aboue named euil Kings Achaz Ioram Manasses Amon Iechonias and others did leade no such holy liues as Abraham Isaac Iacob or Dauid yet notwithstanding those euil Kings haue beene set forth in the generation of our Sauiour as the fathers of the iust Iesus Christ Let them iudge then that haue any witte whether this bee a great folly or no to see how these crafty coggers of the scriptures should make many simple persons refuse to be the Popes spirituall children because they were sinners seeking thereby to ouerthrow all the ancient customes of the Church The VII Chapter WHither onely your succession doeth suffice to ouerthrow all our Religion or any part of it though you here confidently say it is and suppose that to be the cause why we reiect it I refer to the iudgement of the reader by that which hitherto hath beene saied by you and confuted by me concerning the same Whereby also I doubt not but euery indifferent reader may perceiue that we haue and doe still yeelde other causes of our reiection of it and not this at all Whereas you call our Religion here heresie that you haue learned of the corrupt Orator Tertullus Act. 24. But as he tearmeth poore Paul there a captaine of the Sect or heresie of the Nazarites and the high Priest and elders saied it was euen so yet hee was not ashamed of the Gospell of Christ which they so tearmed but stoutly saied before Felix to their faces that according to that way which they counted heresie he worshipped the God of his fathers beleeuing all that was writē in the law the Prophets so though you giue vs neuer so many nicknames and tearme our Religion neuer so oft new and an heresie and haue your high Priest of Rome and your elders to bear you out in so doing we neuer a whit the more mislike of our Religion as long as wee are able in trueth to say with Saint Paul which our consciences witnesse comfortably we may that therein we doe but beleeue that which is taught vs in the canonicall Scriptures Indeede not Caluin only but euery one of vs when we haue to doe with you in this question of your succession we tell you your reason drawen frō your succession is of no force seeing the Greekes whom you account heretiques may vse that argument as well as you But to preuent this our obiection against your argument of succession you say They haue not succession and continuance of doctrine the which ought euer to be ioyned to the continuāce of pastors to shew the true recognisance of the Catholique Religion We are glad to see heare that euidence force of trueth hath wrong frō you this kinde of honest true replie to our obiection yet we thanke you not for it at all For ful gladly if our obiections had not driuen you to it perforce would you haue run on which bare succession of Bishops pastours without any mention of this Well howsoeuer you haue beene drawen to confesse thus much thereupon it doeth most euidently followe that if there be as little continuance lesse too in the Apostolicke faith and doctrine in your succession as there is amongst the Greekes then by your owne confession your succession is as weake a recognisance of the Catholique Religion as theirs And therefore the case thus standing you had neede to haue bestowed lesse paines to proue your personall succession and more to haue proued this succession and continuance of the true Catholicke doctrine for the other wtout this you see is nothing What a preposterous course is this then that you haue takē to take such leasure to bestow pains on that which when you haue gotten is nothing to find no leasure to bestow any paines on this which if you could haue proued your aduersaries would haue stoode with you no longer Enter yet into this controuersie when you will I dare vndertake if you will be tried in this case by the canonicall scriptures which as I haue shewed you must of necessity it shall easily be proued that notwithstanding all you can say against the Greekes your popish Religion consisteth of more heresies and is a greater Apostasie from the ancient Catholique Apostolique faith then theirs The greatest thing you charge thē withall is their denying of the proceeding of the holy ghost from the Father the Sonne which indeede if they denied in that sence that is obiected against them by you doubtles therin they were heretiques But it should seeme that they refuse only that word as not vnderstood of thē added as they say without the consent of the whole church to the creede of feare onely least by admitting the word they should thereby be enforced to cōfesse that he came not of one beginning but of two beginnings in the meane time vsing other words expressing in effect the same thing And if it be thus as in the last session of the Florētine councell it should seeme to be els where thē in that respect their cause is not so ill as
but especially their doctrine hath bene directly contrary in a multitude of most material points of Christian religion to the doctrine taught vs in the Scripture as I shew in diuers places of this booke wee haue as we are counselled Apocal. 18. seperated our selues froÌ„ you and them least by holding society with you in these your sinnes we should in the iustice of God haue beene driuen also in the end to bee partakers with you in your plagues And therefore to conclude this chapter though you bragge that you haue two things to quiet your consciences withal that you beleeue a doctrine that your pastours the vniuersal Church haue taught you 1500. years and that their ill liues cannot hurt you yet in deede and trueth you haue neither of both for your ill liues being ioyned with ill doctrine hath bereaued you of both so you haue had nether the vniuersal Church of Christ but a particuler Synagogue of your own nor any sound or good pastour either for life or religion these 600 or 700 yeares to teach you your faith The X. Chapter NOw to turne vnto the taking of your accompts maie it please you to shew vs how you haue followed the steps of the flocke of Christ according to the counsel that we gaue to his reasonable sheepe as we haue saied before who hath taught you the way that you doe follow what doctours were your first tutors who hath taught you that the precious body of our Sauiour is not really in the Sacrament of the Altar who hath taught the doctrine or if it be not griefe vnto you heresie which you would haue vs to receiue as a Gospell I know before hand that you will alleadge me Iesus Christ and his holie Apostles whose steppes you doe professe to follow preaching euery where that there is no difference betweene your Church or to say trueth Synagogue the church of the Apostles But I pray let me vnderstand by what means you can ioine your selues vnto the Church of the Apostles seing that a This is an impudent vntruth you condemne cut off all the Christians that haue beene are betweene you them For to verifie this I will alleage no other but your owne workes for Caluin in his Institutions at the Treatise of the Supper of the Lord speaking of the oblation of the bodie of our Sauiour Christ as it was offered in olde time he doeth write punctuallie these wordes Caluinus in suâ institutione traditâ de Coenâ Domini I finde saieth he that those of old time haue changed this fashion otherwise then the Institution of our Sauiour did require seeing that their supper did represeÌ„t a certaine spectacle of a strange inuention or at the least of a new maner There is nothing more sure vnto the faithful theÌ„ for theÌ„ to holde themselues vnto the pure ordinance of the Lord by whoÌ„ it was called a supper to the ende that onely his authority may be our rule Yet it is true that when I consider their good meaning and that their intent was neuer to derogate froÌ„ the onely sacrifice of Christ I dare not condeÌ„ne theÌ„ of folly and yet I thinke that one cannot excuse theÌ„ that they haue not somewhat failed in the exteriour forme for they haue followed more the Ceremonies of the Iews theÌ„ the order of Iesus Christ did permit And this is the point in which they ought to be resisted for they haue conformed to much vnto the old TestameÌ„t not contenting theÌ„selues with the simple institution of Christ they haue to much inclined themselues vnto the shadowed Ceremonies of the Iewes law These are Caluins words The Reader may by them see well how this noble Reformer of the Gospel doeth correct al ages and Churches bee they of Martyrs CoÌ„fessours Doctours Interpreters Preachers or any others from the Apostles time vnto our age yet doeth he not denie but that hauing some regard of their simple ignoraÌ„ce he is content to be so good to theÌ„ as for this time not to condemne their errour or impietie because that which they did was with a good intent but yet fearing that the bearing them to much fauour would trouble his conscience he giueth sentence against them saying that a Yet this proueâ—h not that for the which you alleadged him they ought to be resisted because they were not content with the onely institution of Christ but rather that in this case they haue followed the shadowes of the Iewes Now for my part I thinke Caluin his fellowes so scrupulous that they would not ioine themselues vnto persons that are spotted with Iewish Ceremonies b Are you not ashamed thus to bely him is it not euidâ—nt in his words that hee speaketh but onely of some in olde time And because that all maner of people how wise soeuer they were from the Apostles time vntill our daies haue fallen into this errour he doeth counsel my masters his deformed followers according to his sentence to follow none of them at al but only the pure word of the Lord preached by Iesus Christ and by his aboue mentioned Apostles The X. Chapter IN that by the Scriptures we are able to iustifie our doctrine and therfore diuerse times haue called vpon you to come to that trial and yet cannot by any means bring you vnto it that we are sure that that doctrine therein warranted hath alwaies by God by the meanes he hath appointed for that purpose beene preserued and continued in his Church You returning now againe to take accounts of vs how we haue followed the flocke of Christs sheep that weÌ„t before vs fed by the tents of his shepheards are answered And yet for your better and more plaine satisfying who hath taught vs the way that we follow who were the Doctours that were ouâ— first tutors we answere you that Christ his Apostles EuaÌ„gelists in the new Testament were our first tutors since them in the principal points of our religion the aucient Fathers whose names and monumeÌ„ts are knowen vnto the Church that liued for 1000. years after Christ those that I named vnto you before in my answer to your 4 Chapter But particulerly you would know of vs who hath taught vs to deny the reall presence of Christs body in the Sacrament of the altar Here I suppose you meane by real presence that real presence which is in this case now taught and receiued in your Church vnder the formes of bread and wine to the mouthes of al receiuers be they faithful or faithlesse for otherwise none of vs doe deny a true and most certaine presence of Christ to the faith of the right receiuer This theÌ„ being your meaning we do not onely as you suppose answere you that we haue learned of Christ his Apostles to deny it but also of al the ancieÌ„t writers of credit accouÌ„t in the Church for 700 or 800 years togither since we haue bene coÌ„tinued in the same
with great approbation by men of your side to bring the poore Indians by force in subiection vnto you And what extreame force and crueltie hath beene vsed of late yeares to subdue the poore Christians of Cabriers Merindoll and other places thereabout and to roote out the professours of the Gospell and their fauourers in France I am perswaded that the Turks neuer vsed more faithles tyrannical and monstrous dealings then the stories and the euidence of the thing declares you haue vsed against these And therefore it being so vsuall a thing with you as it is to promote your Religion by force of all men you are the vnfittest to charge others with that as with a fault which you account so laudable in your selues And yet as though you had saied so much against vs for this as that thereupon it must needs appeare to euery man that we haue neither reason of our saying or doing you further charge vs that herein in seeking namely the reformation of your Church we haue taken vpon vs cōtrary to all laws both diuine and humane being also a party to be our owne iudge wherein you say vntruely of vs for we alwaies haue beene contented to submit both our sayings and doings to the iudgement of the Lord himselfe speaking vnto vs in the writen word and by the same we haue had our sayings and doings often examined and tried to be sound and lawfull in nationall and prouinciall Synodes before we haue attempted the reformation you speake of And secondly herein you charge vs as you did before with that which you your selues are openly guilty of For though your Pope be the speciall party accused by vs yet in all matters in question betwixt you and vs you wil haue him to be the supreme iudge and so the questiō being betwixt you vs whither you be the church or we and whither you hold the trueth or we no other triall will you admit but that we must be iudged by him whither it be so or no. Wherein you deale as if the felon at the bar should refuse all other triall but to be tried by the principall in that felony whither he be guilty or no. Now wheras yet in this our dealing you would resemble vs to him that gaue Christ a blow c. Your errour is manifold therein it seemeth either your negligence was much or that your wits were benūmed For where the story you allude vnto is Ioh. 18. it is quoted in your booke Iohn 15. neither doe you hit of Christs words in rehearsing the answere to him that smote him nor yet is there any reason or similitude made to appeare betwixt our dealing in seeking to reform your Church that fellow Christs answer was this if I haue euill spoken beare witnesse if the euill but if I haue well spoken why smitest thou me And you set downe his answere thus if we haue done il proue it before the iudge seeing that you are our accusers as for the resemblance betwixt him that smote Christ and vs you shew not wherein it is neither can I gesse wherein you ment it But indeed your dealing with vs considered he carieth a liuely resemblance of a number of you whose property it is to bring vs for our holy profession before your high priest and his chaplaines and then if we chance to answere boldly for our own defence as Christ did though neuer so directly to the purpose to checke vs and strike vs as he did our sauiour for your great prelates may not so be answered But perhaps you wil say that the words that you set downe containe your answere to vs when we checke you for your doings why then set you them downe as the answere made by Christ to him that smote him And if the words be taken as your answere to vs meaning therein such a iudge as either the Pope or one of his sworne men that we should be drawen before such iudges by your owne law here alleaged is against reason for they can be no competent iudges because they themselues are principall parties Our accusation of you we are alwaies ready to proue before the Lord of heauen and earth and before any other indifferent iudges by such deponents and witnesses as will not bee corrupted either by you or vs namely by the prophets and Apostles speaking without all partiality in the Canonical scriptures Exemption from this iudgement we neuer sought nor will and if your religion flye this kinde of triall and iudgement God hath giuen vs power euen thereby to iudge that you are such as ought to be driuen from possession of such a corrupt religion that dare not shew the face in this court of iudgment because then it knoweth it should bee foyled But yet to holde your Clyents in some lyking of your religion you once againe confidently bragge that it is of one thousand fiue hundred yeares continuance and vpwards and therefore you require vs that would disswade you therefrom to shew our commission sealed and confirmed as so great a matter doeth require and as Moses his was by miracles which in this case to be as necessary for vs as it was for him you striue to proue in the rest of this Chapter and that otherwise you are not to beleeue vs. Wherefore because all this you require at our handes and thinke you may doe it stil only vpon this supposition that your religion is thus ancient as you bragge First let vs consider of that point and then proceede to the rest which you infer thereupon Herein that which I haue writen already both in the later ende of the preface and in my answere to your 4 Chapter doeth sufficiētly discouer the shameles follie and vanity of this your brag howbeit because I perceiue what you lacke in trueth in this matter your purpose is to make vp with the setting a stout countenance vpon it once againe I will take the paines to strip your Church and religiō of this visard of antiquity which done for al your lewd brags I doubt not but that both the one and the other shal be found a yoūgling a new vpstart in comparison of that which you pretend First therfore to begin withal in that the greeke Churches which quite brake of communion with you in the time of Gregory the 9 in the yeare 1230 which is now not aboue 360. yeares ago haue not yet allowed the masse to be a propitiatory sacrifice for the quicke and dead do minister no priuate masses either in the Church or else where reserue not after the ministration of this sacrament any part thereof nor deny the ministring thereof vnder both kindes to any communicant in that also they neuer yet coulde be brought to allow of the supremacy of your Pope nor of your doctrines of transubstantiation extreame vnction purgatory of forbidding their ministers the vse of lawful mariage in which points now a great part of your religion consists euen thereby it may
their doctrine was not new for whē they begā to preach vnto the gentils Idolaters i For the 9. they did not at the first preach Iesus Christ but they did seeke to blot out of the minds of the simple people the foolish opinion that they had in the multitude of Gods to teach them that there was but one God who had created the heauē earth who sendeth raine in time of neede all things els that are required for the sustenāce of mā k This he preacht but this was not al therefore he preaching somewhat that was new both to Iewe and Gentile namely that Iesus was the Christ therefore in that respect he his fellows had need to confirme their doctrine by signes and wonders This is the doctrin that S. Paul did preach as we read in the * Act. 14. Acts. This doctrine was not new amōg men although it were so that they were Painims l And therefore you bestow much needelesse cost to proue this point no new doctrine touching the vnity of the Godheade and the verity thereof for not onlie in Moses lawe nor in the law of Grace but euen by the lawe of Nature God hath beene knowen euen of those which were not of the familie of Abraham Isaac Iacob vnto whom the promise of the incarnation of Christ was made Of this doeth Abimilech the King of Gerar beare witnesse who did excuse himselfe before God for the wife of Abraham hee could neuer haue knowen how to talke thus with God if he had not knowen him * Gen. 20. Besides this he made Abraham to swear by the inuocatiō of the saied God that neither he nor his heires should suffer anie dammage by his posterity * Gen. 24. Bathuel did likewise know God whē he cōfessed that he was the authour of the mariage of his daughter with Abrahams son euen so Abimilech the king of the Palestines Phicol Ochosath saied vnto Isaac We heare that God is with thee therfore we are come to make alliance togither * m Judg. 2. Adonibezeth although he were a Gentile did not he confesse one God m Iudg. the first you would say when he saied that he had giuen him the selfesame punishment that he had giuen the .70 kings Iob al his frends although they were Gentiles haue auouched one God to be the Creatour of heauē earth euen aswell as the Israelites as it doeth appeare by the discourse of the said Iob. If we read the histories of the Paynims we shal finde that they beare witnes of one God among themselues Diogenes Laertius ◠the liues of the Philosophers doeth write that the Emperour Adrian did demaunde of a Philosopher celled Secundus what God was He answered God is an immortall spirit incomprehensible containing al the world a light and a soueraigne goodnes True it is that this Secundus was bolder to speake of God then another Philosopher called Simonides of whom Tullie doeth write in his first booke De naturâ deorum vnto whom when the tyrant Hiero did demaunde of him what God was that he had giuen him diuers daies of respuit to answer him at the last he saied that he did acknowledge in him an infinite of al things Cicero himselfe in the first question of his Tusculanes doeth gouerne giue the being to all things And in diuers places of that worke he doeth wel expresse that he knew wel that there was one God and that the Gods that the Gentiles did worship were but mortall men And in the saied booke he saieth that we know God by his works in the which hee doeth not much differ from Dauid saying * Psal 18. That the heauens declare the glory of God and the firmament doeth anounce his workes And in the 40. Chapter of Esay when God did talke with the Gentiles he did cal his works to beare witnes of his greatnes Lift vp your eies saieth he and beholde who hath made this And the * Sap. 13 Sage doeth say that men through their vanity haue not knowen God by his works And * Rom. 1. Saint Paul doeth absolutely condemne them saying that they can procure no excuse of ignorance for the inuisible things such as is the diuinitie of God maie be knowen by the visible thinges And therefore they are vnexcusable hauing hidden the trueth of God to vniustice for after that they haue knowen him they haue not giuen him that thankes and honour that they should haue done but they haue beene deceiued through their owne subtilitie making a profession of knowledge they haue beene founde foolish and ignoraunt S. Augustine 8. lib. de Ciu. dei cap. 24. doeth reckon Mercurius called Hermes Trimegistus among these forasmuch as he did continue in his owne errour although he knewe by that that one maie see in his owne writinges that his auncetours did err greatlie in the making and worshipping of so manie Gods The XVIII Chapter INdeede euen as you suppose in this case we further aunswere you as the Iewes were answered by Christ telling you that you are an adulterous and peruerse generation in thus demaunding signes to confirme a doctrine already of ancient time sufficiently confirmed But this answere you say cannot be iustly made to you because neither we are faithful messengers from God as Christ was nor you so hard harted as these Iewes were Trueth it is we dare not compare in faithfulnes with Christ for such comparison were odious but with S. Paul we protest that in seruing the God of our fathers according to that Religion which you count heresie beleeuing all that is writen in the law the Prophets we haue alwaies endeuoured to keepe a good conscience both before God and mā Act. 24. and as for you we see no cause to the contrary but that you may both for malice against the trueth and hard hartednes be compared with the Iewes For though we worke no miracles and they then had seene Christ to worke many yet our doctrine beeing the same that he taught and no other as we are alwaies ready and willing to proue it to be by the scriptures it hath beene confirmed not only by all the miracles that then Christ had wrought but also by all them that since were wrought by him or his Apostles to confirme the same and therefore you yet refusing to beleeue it shew as great hardnes of hart as they did rather more Indeed if we took vpon vs either any callings not warrāted by the Lord in his word or to preach any doctrine which we could not warrant by the canonicall scriptures you might with some reason call for some miracles of vs but seeing you cā proue neither of these against vs you may with more reason giue ouer this obiection then to pursue it any further Indeede we are not ashamed to confesse that these are two principall reasons which are here remēbred by you wherby we proue
had warrant from the law and the prophets as you proue I graunt wel out of the 1. to the Rom. and 10. of the Acts conferring those places with the 53. of Esay though wrong quoted by you and out of the prophecy of Daniel I graunt they preached nothing that ought to haue beene new vnto them forasmuch as euery thing that they preached had ground in the olde Testament but yet as you after seeme to confesse it was growen new not onely to the Gētiles but also to the Iewes in that they were misse-led in the vnderstanding of the prophecies that went before of him both concerning his person and office through their ignorance corrupt glosses interpretations that by false teachers were made thereof Insomuch that when the Messias came and executed his office though indeed all the ancient prophecies were yea Amen in him and most plainly in respect of euery circumstance verified yet they could not be perswaded either that he was such a one in person or office as he was and therefore then once it was necessary by all other good meanes miracles also to confirme the doctrine concerning him which was thorowly done by Christ and his Apostles in their tymes Now whereas hereupon you would inferre that seeing wee match you with the superstitious Iewes and Idolatrous Painims and our selues take vpon vs Succession to the Apostles and to the true catholique and Apostolique Church and to reforme you of your errours as they did theirs therefore we preaching that ancient doctrine of God and of his Christ that they did we now also should confirme our doctrine commission by miracles as they did Beside many other there are two principal things that let you from this conclusion The first is that howsoeuer other things were old y they taught of God the Messias yet this was new who was the very person of the Messias Wherin if they had erred though otherwise they had rightly vnderstood the generall doctrine both of his person and office it had bene most dangerous for thē and therefore that doctrine especially is vrged by thē as for example you may see in Peters sermon to Cornelius Act. 10. And for the confirmation of that doctrin they work al their miracles not generally in the name of the Messias but particulerly in the name of Iesus Christ of Nazareth as it appeareth Act. 3.6 c. Which thing in respect of you we haue not for that is a thing agreed on betwixt vs. Another stop to your conclusion is seing that doctrine hath bene once sufficiently confirmed by miracles by Christ and his Apostles that we teach and you haue the same doctrine and miracles set downe in the new Testament whereunto you seeme to giue credit as wel as we it is thenceforth needles for the ministers thereof howsoeuer they meete with people that for Idolatry superstitious errours match the Gentiles the Iewes in the Apostles times to vse any other proofe thē from those records of the scripture which ought now to be accoūted sufficient therefore now the calling for miracles to be out of time To reason therfore as you doe It was necessary for the Apostles in their time to worke miracles Ergo it is necessary also now for vs though our doctrine be the same is besides and without reason And yet for al this we recant no whit for comparing you to the superstitious Iewes and Idolatrous heathen For if either be worse then other we thinke it is like to proue your selues in that hauing far better meanes and more knowledge of God and his Christ then they had yet you multiply your Idolatries and superstitious conceites far beyond them And euen for this that notwithstanding your better meanes to keepe you in the waies of God and your more knowledge then they had when Christ and his Apostles came first vnto them to preach this Gospel you match them in grosse Idolatrie and in multitude of superstitions and false opinions is it that God vouchsafing the better to conuert them to worke miracles then thinketh it fit to answere you now as the rich glutton was enforced in the like case ye haue Moses and the Prophets yea also the books of the New Testament and if you will not beleeue them you would not beleeue though one should rise from death againe or what miracle soeuer els were wrought But wher as you suppose that the cause why the Apostles wrought miracles was the blinde Idolatry of the heathen superstitions of the Iews onely and not any newnes of any part of their doctrine you are much deceiued as you may perceiue by that which I haue saied Againe if you would perswade that their doctrine was in no point new because in the doctrine of one God and in the doctrine of the Messias in some points it was not or ought not to haue bene so your logicke is flender For in other points it might be new as I haue tolde you and so in respect thereof though not of the other miracles were necessary But this your obiectiō of lacke of miracles pleaseth you so well that you cannot haue done with it let vs therfore heare what further you can say touching this matter The XXI Chapter YOu doe coniure vs by the name of the liuing God to receiue your Gospel and pure word of God or els you doe threaten vs that you will shake off the dust of your feete in testimonie against vs because that vvee will not beleeue your words But in this matter ye doe alleage a wronge text for we were very simple if we should forsake or remoue the foundation of our Church vpon such an occasion as I vvill shevv by this discourse that doeth followe I am sure that you are not ignoraunt howe that Luther after he began to preach his Gospell was not founde barren for immediatelie after his beginning he did ingender another Gospeller that is to wit Andrew Coralstadius and from thence was produced another called Zuinglius and of Zuinglius Oecolampadius Then Thomas Muncerus considering that he had no lesse the gift of the spirit then the rest hee beganne to forge a newe Gospell of the Anabaptists vvith the which hee thought to gratifie the Towne of Milhouse vvho had receaued alreadie the Gospel of Luther But the Senate of that towne beeing vvearied already with two manie straunge Gospels they aduertised Luther you first Apostle of it And he wrote to them againe that Thomas Muncerus ought not to be receiued if hee could not proue his vocation by some miracle And if you demaund where I haue founde this I saie to you not in the workes of some lying Papist but in the Commentaries of your deare Historiographer master * a Lib. 8. fol. 4. Sleydon vvho hath so good a grace in his writing and is so mooued with the trueth of his spirit a Either you had wondrous ill hap for your quotations or else your printer was too bad for it is
Christ doth say He that hath sent me is with me and he hath not left me alone And therefore Theodorus his fellowes did conclude that there was no more vnion betweene the diuinity humanity of our Sauiour then there is betweene God vs. Of the which * c 1. Cor. 5. S. Paul doeth speake where he saieth hee that is ioined to God c Well quoted you would haue saied 6. is made one spirit with him The XXVI Chapter IT doeth suffise that one maie see by these fellowes how soone one that is ill disposed may alleage scripture in corrupt sense to maintain such heresies as these the which I will not staie to confute for thankes be to God they doe not raigne now for they haue perished and their authours a This is but a blind Prophetes dreame as you shall and your followers if yee doe not repent in time And besides this our Doctours haue fullie answered b It is wel yet that you wil confesse thus much by textes of Scriptures these olde heresies as you maie see in al the ancient ecclesiasticall writers and confuted them not onely with pithie reasons but vvith the true worde of God and the authoritie of diuerse generall councels And if I haue noted here some part both of their authours and of them to shew how they did seeke to confirme their damnable opinions I doe it only to warne the simple people that they should not so soone giue eare to false Pastours which haue nothing in their mouthes but the holie scripture and the pure word of God couering the cuppes of their poison with the gold and pretious stones which they haue taken from the image of the eternall king to paint those subtill Foxes that will leade them all to damnation And therefore in the name of God I doe desire those that are not much vsed to reade the Scriptures nor to heare how the Church and the doctours doe expound the hard places a So doe we but not to driue theÌ„ from reading theÌ„ but to shew them hat they must be read and searcâ—ed diligently to beware how they reade them for feare of falling into errour taking onelie the letter which manie times hath a contrarie sence to that that is outwardlie writen For if so manie men of great learning excellent vnderstanding haue found such great rocks in this rough sea which haue manie times ouerthrowen their shippes how dangerous then must it needes bee vnto those that will take it in hande so doubtfull a nauigation hauing little skill or none at all But as for you my masters of the contrarie side you can saile with all tides all windes giuing the gouernance of the shippe or the guiding of the sterne without consideration b This is a meere slander to all kinde of people We haue at this daie in France I will not saie in England manie that haue the holie spirit Interpreters of the scriptures And for sooth what are they Mary Pedlers Coblers Tanners Bankrouts Runnegates such others which hauing no other liuing c Here the authour bewrayeth himselfe rather to haue beene an English man then a French For when this should be wrâ—ten there were no Lord Bishops in France to make such but papists sue to my Lord Bishop and hee makes them ministers beeing not one of them but hath the holie spirite d All this is but slanderous rayling lying for we doe not say or thinke thus but cry vpon Bishop that they admit no suc vnfit meâ— and we call vpon such rather humbly to content them selues with the places of earners then to presume without sufficient knowledge to be teachers for assoone as they can saie the Lorde and raile vpon the Pope the Bishops and all the learned men that haue beene in times past Oh these are great doctours no place of scripture to them is hard all the ancieÌ„t doctors were men the generall councels did erre I knowe that you doe maintaine your opinion with the saying of * e John 8. Christ alleaging it as other hereticks haue done the which is That the heauenly father hath hid these high and profound thinges from the great Clerkes and hath reuealed them vnto the meeke and humble This is true but it ought to be vnderstoode to the humble and meeke of spirit and not to those which trust so much to their owne wittes beeing puffed vp with arrogant ignorance that they thinke to know more in three daies reading then the doctours could in fiftie yeares studie faming themselues to be like the Apostles as if that God gouerned by their appetites did send euerie moneth the feast of Pentecost c Mat. 11. you should haue saied The XXII XXIII XXIIII XXV XXVI Chapter NEither our owne Doctors nor any thing els that yet you haue saied for all your great brag haue any force either to disproue that lawfulnes of our vocation or to condemne our religioÌ„ Neither is it true that we stand so much vpon our extraordinary calling as you would insinuate to your reader For we tel you that if you take ordinary calling in your owne sence if ther be any good at al in that Wickliffe Iohn Hus Luther Bucer and the rest that haue bene the first formost in these late daies in detecting the errours of the papacy and in renuing the light of the gospel had that kinde of calling And as for the rest since they haue had a better ordinary calling theÌ„ that in that it hath bene more agreeing to the order of calling by the Apostles and primatiue Church But in that to expresse what you meane by our extraordinary calling you say that therby you meane a calling without commission of the pastours and bishops c. I perceiue that therefore it is that you charge many of our ministers to preach the gospel extraordinarily because howsoeuer otherwise they had before they tooke vpoÌ„ them any dealing in the ministry the ordinary calling allowed of in the reformed Churches of Christ where they were to exercise the same they tooke not first any of your popish orders at the hands of some of your popish lord bishops after your popish maner In which sort I graunt you many of our ministers haue an extraordinary calling but then I say vnto you againe that their extraordinary calling hauing an eie to that order that Christ and his Apostles left in this case vnto the Church is more ordinary then the ordinary calling that you speake of And therefore though their calling of late daies here amongst vs hath not bene according to your order that they haue neither beene chosen by your pastours nor had imposition of hands of your Lord bishops yet you cannot say truely that any of them take vpon them extraordinarily that is as you expouÌ„d it without the commission of the pastours and bishops to preach the Gospel Name the man time and place you caÌ„not when and where any that is
accounted amongst vs a soūd preacher of the gospell hath either sayed that thus hee ought to be receaued to preach the gospell or hath attempted so to doe For it is generally held and receiued of al the Churches that professe the gospell and so lykewise is their vniforme practise that none be suffered to take vpō them to preach the gospel vnlesse it be knowen and sufficiently appeare that by the ordinary calling of some according to the order of the Church where hee is ordered he be sufficiently authorished so to doe And wel knowen it is that there is no Church that professes the Gospel indeed but the order thereof is that none meddle in the ministry therein without commissiō as it pleaseth you to speake either from some conueniēt number of pastours or from some bishop or from both by the order of that church appointed to looke to and to take care of that busines As for the Anabaptists a captaine whereof you named in the former Chapter we know that in their fantastical spirit they both hold and practise as here you charge vs but therin and therfore we dislike condemne them as much as you And you know we renounce communion with them we coūt them heretickes therfore sundry of vs purposely haue writ large and vehement bookes against them you doe vs therfore great wrong to charge vs with that which is their fault which you cānot proue to be ours But you wil say I am sure for in your former Chap. you seeme to deriue Mūcer the Anabaptist his petigree frō Luther that we may worthely so be charged for they are such as spring of and from vs. But herein againe you offer vs as great wrong as the seruants of the good seeds man that sowed only good seed in his field should haue done him if they had saied that the tares that came vp therewith in the same field had beene there sowed by him because when Christ his Apostles and faithfull ministers had first preached the gospel there were foūd in the same age springing vp with the same amongst the professours therof Ebionites Cerinthians Nicolaitans Simonists and sundry other fantastical heretickes as Hymeneus Philetus Hermogines and Phygetus was it any reason therefore that Christ or any of his faithfull ministers or that the gospel it selfe should be charged with their fond cōceits And yet as absurd sencelesse as this kinde of dealing were it is both here with you oft in this your booke vsuall is it with all of your spirit this now for want of better matter against vs by this means with the simple people to labour the discredit and disgrace both of vs our churches and religion But you content not your selfe with falsely charging vs to say that we ought to be receiued to preach the gospel extraordinarily but also you lay to our charge that we seeke still to defend an ill cause and an extraordinary commission This you onely say as your maner is but neither proofe nor shadow of proofe you bring neither indeede can you For our cause is the very trueth and our commission is but that ordinary commission of teaching and confirming the same vnto men that Christ hath left by his owne ordināce to all his faithfull ministers vnto the worlds ende And for proofe hereof we appeale indeede to the holy scriptures which in this case euen for the reason by you alleadged wee are not ashamed to confesse to be the sound touchstone of trueth and to be preferred in credit before miracles Yet you some thing amplifie and adde vnto our speech in that you say we affirme that the scriptures as they are alleadged by vs alone ought to bee of more credit then all the miracles wrought by the Apostles Well this our reason to iustifie our cause and commission you say is a notable way to deceaue the simple and vnlearned I wonder that you were not ashamed and affraied so to write For you cannot be ignorant that to confute errour to proue trueth to exhort to vertue and to dehort from vice Christ and his Apostles and so from time to time the ancient fathers what aduersaries soeuer they had to deale withal vsed alwaies to flie to this touchstone and for the most certaine concluding of their purpose did alleadge scripture but your shift will be that these alleadged the scripture rightly which you speake not of and we alleadge the scripture corruptly and in a wrong sense therefore you would haue your words in all this your discourse against our alleadging of scripture to bee taken as writen not simply against alleadging of scripture but against alleadging it as we doe Then I answer that that you should haue proued that we alleadge the scripture in a wrong sense but this you haue not once gone about only you proue that bare alleadging of scripture cannot nor may not so countenance our cause as we pretēd for that sundry heretickes haue countenanced their heresies by alleadging scripture and that often very plentifully About this you spend sundry Chapters and withall to shew your selfe to be able if you list to be a cunning in wresting of the scriptures as any of the heretickes you mention all which is to no purpose vnles withall you had proued which you shall neuer be able to doe that we alleadging them doe alleadge them so likewise For we are not so simple or ignorāt that we know not that the scripture hath beene and may be misalleadged as you write and therefore we neuer go about to perswade the people that they must and ought to beleeue vs for our bare alleadging of scripture but for that by the sound rules of interpreting of them we proue forcibly and inuincibly vnto their consciences that we alleadge them according to their true and natiue meaning We call vpon them with Christ to search the scriptures themselues Iohn 5 39. and with Paul we exhort them so to trauaile therein as that they may haue the worde of God dwell euen in themselues plentifully in all wisedome Coloss 3.16 that so according to the commended example of the noble men of Baerea Act. 17.11 and the doctrine of S. Iohn they may trie the spirits of them that would seeme to teach them a right before they beleeue them 1. Iohn 4.15 we confesse gladly with Peter 2. Epist cap. 1. 20. 21. that no prophesie nor part of the scripture is of any priuate interpretation and all such interpretations we count and iudge priuate and humane whosoeuer gyues or allowes them that are not indeede soundly agreeing with the minde of the authour of the scripture the holy Ghost And therefore we hold and teach for asmuch as the naturall man vnderstandeth not the thinges of the spirit of God 1. Cor. 1.15 that no man in alleadging and citing of the scripture◠is to trust to his owne wisedome or learning but according to the counsell of S. Iames finding himselfe in this case to lacke wisedome we exhort all men
and thinking it needefull our selues before we take vpon vs to interprete them to aske wisedome of God and that hartelie and faithfully that we may wisely truely and sincerely open them vnto the people we know and saie with Basil 2. libro contra Eunomium that the word of God is not in the sound and words of the scripture but in the sense and with Hierom vpon the first Chapter of the epistle to the Galathians wee are readie alwaies to acknowledge that the gospell lies not in the words of the scripture but in the sense not in the outward shew but in theinward marow not in the leaues of speech but in the root of reason Now this sound sence of the scripture we take onely to be that which the authour thereof thereby intended for the better finding out whereof after inuocation and praier vnto God for the direction of his spirit to leade vs aright thereunto wee thinke it very necessarie that no good meanes that we can haue vse of be omitted And therefore to this ende we labour for the knowledge of tongues and artes we consider of the phrase of all the circumstances haue before our eies the manifest agreed on summe of Christian faith and good maners confer place with place diligently reade the writings both of ancient writers and newe and that we resolue to be the true since which we finde stands best with the lawfull and good vse of all these In alleadging of them this course we take to make it appeare that by the sound rules of interpreting the scriptures they are rightly cited by vs wee stand not therefore vpon the bare and onely cyting of them howsoeuer that be as you would insinuate but vpon the right and sound alleadging thereof which you can neuer proue is common to vs with other heretiques For howsoeuer they and you ioyne with vs in often alleadging the Scriptures for your defence yet neither they nor you ioyne with vs in right alleadging of them in that you and they alleadge them for the maintenance of your errours and heresies contrary to the true sence thereof and the sound rules of interpreting of them and we according to the true sence of the Catholicke church standing well with those rules to confirme the Catholicke faith And yet as I saied to this ende serueth what soeuer you haue writen in this Chapter and in three or foure moe following namely to proue that the deuill heretiques and others as you write haue by wresting wrong interpreting the scriptures alwaies laboured to countenāce their heresies This we graunt to be most true you see yet thereby you haue gained nothing against vs. For we stand still vpon this may doe for all this that if we haue the Scriptures indeede in true sence on our side thereby we and our doings are so sufficiently iustified as that we neede no further iustification These fiue Chapters as they tend to the proofe of one and selfe-same matter so haue I thought good ioyntly to frame an answere to them togither Be it graunted therefore vnto you that all these heretiques as you haue writen and reported of them alleadged the Scripture and consequently as hereupon you inferre cap. 26. that one may see how the ill disposed may alleage scripture in a corrupt sence to maintaine such heresie as these To what ende haue you done all this It appeareth chap. 22. you entered first into this discourse to proue that though we haue the scripture on our side which we alleadge yet we are not therby sufficiently defended and now hereupon onely you would inferre conclude that a man may see how the ill disposed may alleadge Scripture in a corrupt sence to confirme such heresies as these which we graunt to be most euident and yet it remaineth vndisproued that if we haue the Scripture which we alleadge on our side we are thereby sufficiētly defended For none of these nor any that alleadged Scripture as they did though they alleadge the words of the scripture haue the scripture indeede on their sides because if a man haue not the true sence thereof on his side he hath not the scripture indeede and trueth on his side But perhaps you will say that you intended onely in this discourse this cōclusion that you haue gathered thereupon set downe in the beginning of your 26. Chapter then say I you made an obiection against your selues in our name cap. 22. which you thought to heauy harde for you therefore you thought good thus to slip frō it by and by againe For you were neuer so simple as to thinke that we were of that opinion that we accounted our selues to haue those scriptures which wee alleadged on our side to iustifie vs our doctrine euē for the bare alleadging of the words how far soeuer we were from the true meaning But you beginne in your 26. to tell vs what further meaning you haue had therein as namely hereby to warne the simple people that they should not giue eare vnto false pastours that haue nothing in their mouthes but the scripture the pure word of God And hereupon you take occasion most earnestly to perswade those that are not much vsed to reade the Scriptures nor to heare how the church the doctours doe expoūd the hard places to beware how they reade thē for fear of falling into errour Indeede as long as you would haue them hereby onely to take heede of rash crediting false pastours which would countenance their damnable doctrine with such allegations I like well and allow of your warning hereupon giuen against such but then I can assure you this withall that rather your Popes Bishops pastours will be found these false pastours then they whom you meane I like also very well that not only such as you speake of but further that men of all sorts how much soeuer exercised in the reading of the scriptures or acquainted with the exposition of the Church or doctours should be at all times wary and carefull in reading of the Scriptures in what sence they take them For I graunt as you inferre that if so many men of great learning haue so dangerouslie mistaken them it is possible enough that men that haue little skill or none at all may as dangerously misunderstande them But yet vpon these wordes either to discourage the pastour from countenancing and defending his true doctrine by the Scriptures pure word of God or to discourage the simple people from reading and studying the Scriptures which I feare herein was your secrete purpose though for shame you durst not plainely set it downe I tell you is deuilish and Antichristian For though it be true that the deuill for wicked purpose as you note in you twenty two Chapter alleadged scripture to Christ Mat. 4. out of Psal 91. and all these heretiques alleadged scripture for the countenancing of their damnable heresies yet that droue not Christ nor true Christians from alleadging the scriptures to
disgrace Canus may tearme them a dead iudge which can neither heare nor speake in his Chapter booke before named in like sorte others in the following of this comparison with your good allowance shall may call them incken diuinity what else they list as we ofteÌ„ haue shewed you and them the onely rest vpon them scripture men or men whose Religion and diuinity lieth in rags skins of beasts because of such things the bookes are made wherein they are conteined Many beastly blasphemous speeches and assertions thus tending to the disgrace of the Canonicall scriptures any man that list may finde LyndaÌ„s three first bookes of his panoply Hosius booke de expresso Dei verbo his triple dialogue Cusans 2. Epist ad Bohemos 7. Andradius Florebellê° Priereas almost all your famous writers of these later daies euery where full oft where they haue any occasion to weaken those arguments that we vse against you either for that you are in your positions wherein we dissent froÌ„ you without warrant of scripture or that they are contrary to scripture And wheÌ„ we vrge you that of what credit soeuer the tradition of the church be that you so pleade for yet if it be the word of God aswel as the scripture then it must needes be that it agreeth with the scripture is not contrary vnto it for as much as God is alwaies one selfesame and therfore alwaies agreeing with himselfe therefore presse you with that which by the wordes circuÌ„stances of the text of the scripture we are sure is the true sence thereof therfore the vndoubted word of God theÌ„ you euen the greatest of you are driueÌ„ to these poore base shifts to cry out with Cardinal Hosius in his 4. booke against BreÌ„tius in his booke de expresso Dei verbo before named that scripture as it is alleaged of Catholiques it is the word of God but as it is alleadged of heretiques the expresse word of the Deuill or as he saieth also in the later booke if any haue the expositioÌ„ of the RomaÌ„ church of any place of scripture although he neither knowe nor vnderstand whither how it agreeth with the words of the scripture yet he hath the very word of God And when all comes to all though sometime you would make the pore simple people beleeue that in expounding the scriptures you will follow the vniforme consent of holy fathers and councels yet both this Cardinall Hosius in his triple dialogue and Cardinal Cusan in his 2. Epist ad Bohemos tell vs teach vs plainely to vnderstaÌ„d you that you meane no other sence theÌ„ agreeth with the present practise of the RomaÌ„ church when thaâ— sence is giueÌ„ not once blushing to confesse that according to the variablenes of the fashioÌ„ and practise of that church the scriptures must be vnderstood and therefore Cusan coÌ„mends that obedience that is yeelded thereunto simply without reasoning as the Oxe or Asse obeys his master For whatsoeuer sometimes you talke of Popes not erring of the not erring of generall couÌ„cels or of the authority of the fathers none that haue any thing craueiled in tracing you into your starting holes wheÌ„ otherwise you see you must needs be pinched takeÌ„ to your shaÌ„e but he easily seeth that in trueth none of these no nor all these togither with the scriptures themselues are of any credit and authority with you against the present practise of your RomaÌ„ Church One father or the present Pope if he speake hold with that though all the fathers beside are of another minde thogh neuer so many of his predecessors held otherwise yet farewell they in this case you will and must preferre this one before all the other These things being most true notoriously knowen to all men that with any indifferency haue traueiled in the controuersies betwixt you vs euery one hath cause to see howsoeuer somtimes you would seeme to yeeld some thing to the authority of the scriptures that you are at a flat point that neither they nor any authority els of maÌ„ or men old or new shall or may retaine any sence of force against the present practise and receaued opinioÌ„ of your sinagogue And as loÌ„g as you are at this point whatsoeuer you haue said of heretiques abusing of scripture as though you were the only men that had care rightly to vse them vnderstaÌ„d them euery simple body may see that of all men you are they by the variablenes of your Romish church practise which are most likely to make a nose of waxe and leaden rule both of the letter of the scriptures and sence thereof And therefore whereas in your 23. c. you boldly affirme that to draw the scriptures by violeÌ„ce into a wroÌ„g sence is the maner of interpreting the scriptures called at this day the pure word by those that haue professed as long as they liue to be enemies to the trueth most fitly may be vnderstoode of your selues for you are so in loue with the present practise fashion and opinion of your RomaÌ„ church that though that vary neuer so often euen so ofteÌ„ must the scriptures will they nill they vary and alter their sense Howbeit I am not ignoraÌ„t but that in so writing you meant vs though I am sure you shall neuer be able to proue vs either to haue professed at all any enmity with the truth or so to vse to wrest the scriptures But because this is a matter of great importaÌ„ce and therfore such as caÌ„not be determined either by your yea or our nay it shal not be amisse vpoÌ„ this occasioÌ„ to coÌ„sider what souÌ„d rules of interpreting there be that by the same it may be tried whither your interpreting of the scriptures or ours deserue thus to be called a drawing of the scriptures by violence to a corrupt sence The vniforme consent of doctors you would ofteÌ„ seeme as I haue saied in this case to make reckoning of as of a souÌ„d and Apostolicke rule of interpreting them by but this is but for a fashioÌ„ for you haue giuen vs doe daily manifest proofes that wheÌ„ but one or two against all the rest of theÌ„ hold with your curraÌ„t and present practise of your Roman church that now is that that one or two of them ouer wey with you al the rest And besides if this were a necessary rule then none could be interpreters of the scriptures but those that had all or the most part of the doctours to peruse few or none then ancient doctors writers there haue beene so many their names are so vnknowen to most could be sure when they had the consent of the most and best on their side and so neuer should be sure of the sence and for many places very little or nothing oftentimes haue they writen Though therefore we will not shunne the trial of our interpretations with you by this rule yet we account
this as though you meant as honestly as any man could desire in this 33. Cha. of yours you tel vs that you would haue the Scriptures interpreted by him that did indite thē and therfore you alleage that 2. Pet. 1. that no prophecy in the scripture is of any priuate motiō or interpretatiō For the prophecy came not in old time by the wil of mā but holy mē of God spake as they were moued by the holy ghost wherupō you insinuate vnto vs that you would haue thē interpreted by the directiō of the same holy ghost which we are very well contented wtal For indeed that onely interpretation is sound and good that commeth from thence and that is alwaies to be accounted to proceed but from a priuate motion that hath not ground from thence though otherwise neuer so great and publique persons and neuer so manie deuise it receiue it and hold it neuer so long And therefore it is that we tell you that your interpretations though they be countenanced with Popes doctours and councels and what els you will yet are to be reiected as priuate interpretations vnles they be warranted by the testimony and authority of the holy Ghost But thē say you you challēge this holy ghost to lead you to the true sence how shal we beleeue that it dwelleth more in you thē in al the vniuersal church from Christs passiō to this time I answere you that we take no such thing vpō vs. For we say if you vnderstand by the Church you speake of Christs Church which hath frō thēce cōtinued vnto this day it hath neuer bene destitute of the same spirit of God that now leadeth vs into all trueth otherwise if thereby you vnderstād onely your own Synagogue of Rome as the state of it hath beene these later 500. or 600. years at the least we say as it hath forsaken the true Christ and hath set vp another of an office of her owne deuising so hath shee beene destitute of his spirit and hath beene guided but by an humane foolish spirit But then you aske vs where this spirit did rest before we were borne Wherunto you thinke wee can make no other answere but that 〈◊〉 dwelt in the heartes of the faithfull And is not this a good answere What fault can you finde in it Is it not true Doeth not Gods spirit dwell indeede in such yea and in none but such Now whereas you thinke that if you should aske vs againe where were those faithfull ones our answere onelie would bee where the holy Ghost was and that wee could giue you no directer answere and so thereat you take your pleasure saying that that is to plaie handie dandie c though if wee should answere you no otherwise we might doe so with better reason then your Collier in Hosius so much commended by him and some of you else might answere as he did who when he was asked how he did beleeue answered as the Church beleeueth and being demanded how the Church beleeued answered as I beleeue For the Scripture doeth expressely binde vs when wee are called to answere for our faith that wee should yeelde a reason thereof 1. Pet. 3. and so it bindeth vs not to bee alwaies able to make demonstration who bee the faithfull and where they dwell from time to time yet you vnderstand well enough if you were disposed that wee both can and haue giuen you a more particuler answere and that wee haue tolde both the names of the most famous persons and also where they and their followers haue liued and dwelt that beleeued as wee doe and therefore had the holie Ghost as well as wee But to let your gibing go if in earnest you would haue it tried whither in interpreting the Scriptures you or wee haue the holie Ghost and so consequently whither you or wee bee liker these heretiques you speake of in misinterpreting the Scriptures your interpretations and ours must bee examined which will stande best with the rest of the Scriptures wherein we are sure the holie Ghost hath spoken and so they whose interpretations are found best to agree therewith sentence must bee giuen on their side that they haue the holie Ghost and that the other haue it not For Chrysostome writing of the holie Ghost gaue this rule to trie whither Montanus and Manicheus had this spirit or no as they bragged and hereby hee proueth that Christ taught by this spirit because hee confirmed his doctrine out of the Lawe and the Prophets whereas the false teachers could not doe so Christ himselfe also by his owne example hath taught vs when the question is betwixt two about the sence of a sentence of Scripture yea though hee that bringeth the wrong sence be the verie Deuill himselfe that this is the next best and ordinariest waie to stoppe his mouth and to make it appeare that hee hath brought a wrong sence to see whither it will stande with some other plaine place of Scripture or no. For when the Deuill had alleadged the ninetie one Psalme in this sence that the meaning thereof was that though Christ should throwe himselfe downe head-long yet his fathers promise was that hee should take no harme because by this sence sathan would haue perswaded him vpon presumption vpon his fathers protection to haue tempted him Christ proueth that that could not bee the sence of the place because it was writen as it is Deut. 6. Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God And with this answere sathan as cunning and malitious as he was gaue ouer to replie any further for the iustifying of his sence Math. 4.7 So also Iohn 5. in that great controuersie touching the person and office of the Messias when as the ground thereof was that his enemies had falsely interpreted the prophesies concerning him yet Christ for the determination thereof and to make it appeare whither they or hee brought the truer interpretation thereof saieth Search the Scriptures And therefore when Paul had preached the Gospell at Berea it is noted to the commendation of certaine men there that they searched the Scriptures daiele whither those things were so by that meanes labouring to satisfie themselues in this great question whither Paul or the Scribes and Pharisees had the spirit of God in interpreting the Scriptures concerning the Messias And this course all the ancient fathers haue followed as appeareth plentifully in their workes in the confuting of those heretiques that you speake of and all other and consequently in determining whither they or themselues had the direction of the holy Ghost in interpreting the Scriptures And therefore they haue giuen vs rules to helpe vs in this case as for example Tertullian against Praxeas hath giuen vs this Fewer places must bee expounded by the more Augustine this The circumstance of the Scripture is woonte to giue light and open the meaning in his booke of Questions quaest 69. Darke places are to be expoūded by more plaine places that is the
answered by texts of scripture these old heresies by you before mētioned For euen therby you maie see that though heretickes neuer so much misaleage scripture that yet the true ministers of the Lord may must alleage them euen to answere to cōfute their heresies by And therfore it stādeth stil firme that if we by alleaging of thē aright cā proue you heretickes your opiniōs which we striue against heresies which no further then we can doe we neuer craue anie credit to be giuē vs whatsoeuer you would seeme to haue saied to beat vs frō alleaging of thē that it appears that therby both we our doings and religion are sufficiētly iustified both before God and mā These misalegers of scripture which in al these Chapters you haue spoken of you saie you will not staie to confute for two causes because they raigne not now and their heresies togither with thē the authours therof are perished because the anciēt doctors haue cōfuted them as you saie but indeed the reason was that you were loth to occupie either your selfe or reader in so profitable a matter It semeth you tooke more delight in shewing how the scripture might be misalleaged to fortifie heresie then how rightlie alleaged to cōfute the same and therfore you could find leasure to stay 4. or 5 Chap. in that but not at al vpon this Besides if it be true that you haue reported if you had wel remēbred your selfe you would not so generally haue saied that they were al perished For read your Chap. ouer again and you shal finde that therin you haue spoken of some that are not so quite dead and perished but that euen in these daies they need to be cōfuted But you say that with you haue here noted either of them or of their heresies and their alleaging of scripture for the sāe you haue done it onely to giue warning to simple people that they should not too rashly giue ear to false pastors which haue nothing in their mouthes but the holy scripture and the pure word of God so couering the cups of their poison with the gold and pretious stones which they haue taken frō the image of the eternal king to paint those subtil foxes that will lead them al to dānatiō If you had indeed done it onely to this end you had not bene to be misliked but in deed and trueth you haue done it to breed in men a carelesnes and negligence in searching the scriptures and a cōtempt of alleaging the same to determine the cōtrouersies betwixt vs and you Otherwise thinke as you speake and we are ready to ioine with you both in this also in that which you adde in wishing the simple and vnlearned in reading the harde places to take heed they fal not into error by taking onelie the letter c. For if great learned men thereby haue bene endangered how much more may such But surely this is rather a caue at meet and needful for you thē for vs if we go no further but to your peeuish taking of the letter of hoc est corpus meū contrary to al sound rules of right interpreting as I haue shewed before Now wheras hereupon you take occasion according to your maner to ieere at our ministry as though in Frāce Englād especially it were generally vnlearned and consisted of the basest and most contemptible of the people you are worthy of smal answere your speech there about is so apparētly false slāderous For God be thāked in both kingdoms you your selues are enforced to feele to your whole kingdoms griefe and deadly wound in the end I doubt not that there are great store of learned ministers and bishops far other maner of men then you haue named And therfore your own conscience could not but tel you vnles it were seared with a hoate iron that they doe in neither kingdōe cōmit the guiding of the sterne wtout cōsideratiō to al kinde of people In both places both their doctrine publicke order of their churches aimeth at a learned godly ministry wherof if in some particulers they faile which in so great a multitude and compasse altogither cannot bee auoided the faulte is to bee laied in the particuler men by whose negligence or corruption it so commeth to passe and not in either of the churches which would gladly that no such fault should at all be committed Howbeit I dare say howsoeuer you ruffle in your tearms of pedlers Coblers Tanners Bankerouts and raunagates and say that such be our interpreters of the scriptures and that we hold euery such one once admitted by a bishop to be a minister to haue the spirit and to be great doctours to whom no place of scripture is too hard because they can rayle of the Pope say al the ancient doctours were men and the generall councels did erre that yet you can neither proue our ministers to be such nor that for these balde reasons wee thinke any so qualified as you write It pleased you but in this to shew your spitefull and malicious spirit but alas who will thinke doe you what you can that you indeed mislike a base and vnlearned ministry who not onely haue held and yet haue as great cause so to doe stil as euer that ignorance is the mother of deuotiō but also vpon that ground haue all your Church seruice in a tongue that the people shall not vnderstand and content your selues for the most part with such priests as can scarsely rightly read the same Truely if there had bene but a crumme of right modesty shamefastnes in you knowing as you doe the notorious basenes grossenes and ignorance of your ordinary masse-priestes you would neuer haue taken this pleasure that it seemeth you did in thus railing on defacing and slandering of ours Indeed by that saying of Christ Matth. 11. by you quoted Ioh. 8. when we see what grace and giftes of knowledge God oftentimes amongst vs bestoweth vpon such in the meane time beholding in what great blindnes and errour a number of great Rabbins and doctours amongst you walke on still we take occasion as Christ hath taught vs to giue thankes to our heauenly father that hath reuealed these thinges vnto babes which yet your great wise men and men of vnderstanding see not But you would not haue vs by this place to defend that such meane men may come to be cunning and skilfull in the Scriptures Your reasons are two for that other heretiques haue so alleadged it and for that this is to be vnderstood of the humble in spirit whereas these men of ours trust to their owne wittes and are puft vp with arrogant ignorance c. You thought good yet neither to tell vs what heretikes when nor where howsoeuer you knowe I trust that men must not shame wel to vse that Scripture that heretiques haue abused Concerning your other reason I graūt you the place is to be vnderstood onely of the humble and meeke in
not thought that he himselfe not onely might but had erred would he euer haue writeÌ„ as he did a booke of RetractioÌ„s or RecaÌ„tatioÌ„s And indeed in his 2 book 4. Chap. ad BonifaciuÌ„ against that 2. Epist of the PelagiaÌ„s it appeareth that he was of opinioÌ„ that of necessity childreÌ„ were to receiue the CoÌ„munion or els they could not be saued because it is writeÌ„ Ioh. 6. Except yee eat the flesh of the sonne of maÌ„ drinke his bloud yee haue no life in you and Pope Innocent and many of the fathers were of the same opinion then And yet I thinke now your selues holde this to bee an errour aswell as wee And who will read his fourth booke de animâ eius origine ad Vincentium and his prologue to his retractions he should there plainlie finde him confesse that there are manie things in his wordes worthilie to bee founde fault withall which he craueth that his reader would not cleaue vnto in any case but rather pardon and follow him non erraÌ„teÌ„ sed in melius proficientem not erring but better profiting Yea in the later place he saieth that he would not arrogate that perfection to himselfe then being old much lesse when hee was young not to erre And I thinke that you are not ignorant that Irenaeus and Papias were plaine Millenaries and that Cyprian a nuÌ„ber of bishops in his time in Affricke held in councel decreed that rebaptizatioÌ„ of those that had bene baptized by hereticks which both you and we count errors notwithstanding now Why therefore especially when the names and titles of councels or men are vrged to the preiudice of the trueth taught in the scriptures may we not say that which is true that they both might haue erred And thus you haue your answere first generally to your principall scope in these 4. or 5. last Chapters set downe togither because the drift of them was but al one and now also a further answere to the rest of the matters and words therein here and there scattered But yet you haue not quite done with this matter let vs therefore further follow you to see if you haue said any more to the purpose in that which is behinde then in that which we haue heard already The XXVII Chapter I Pray Syrs since you are so absolute answere me to this obiection a A vaine questioÌ„ for whoeuer of vs either saied or wrote so is it good to beleeue almaner of people that doe alleage the Scriptures or not If ye say yea why doe not you beleeue the aboue named Valentinus Apollinaris Hebion Cherintus and Nestorius with diuers others that haue sought to maintaine their errours with the new olde Testament If you saie no but that we ought rather to follow the counsell of S. Iohn in his first Epistle cap. 4. The which is not to beleeue euery spirit but that we ought to proue whether it be of God or no b Our proofe is that our senâ—e wherein we alleage them stands with the rest of the scriptures is according to the analogy of faith and good maners receiued to be the sence of ancient time and from time to time amongst the sound teachers in the Church What proofe wil you shew vs of yours Shewe the priuiledge that you haue by the vvhich God dieth enioine vs to beleeue your Gospel rather the the Gospell of the Pelagians Nouatians Nestorians and other such false Apostles considering that they haue alleaged the Scriptures aswel as you If you saie that they were heretickes abusers of the people and rauishing wolues cloathed in lambes skins and false interpreters of the Scriptures all this is certaine a The more haue they to answere for that report so for they can neuer proue it to be so But vvhat though the like report goeth of you Ye say that ye are sent from Cod to reforme the Church They saie as much b Which of hem I pray you seeing they liued before the B. of Rome beâ—ame Antichrist They preached that the Pope vvas Antichrist c Yea but the Church of Rome then and now are not al one shevving themselues verie eloquent in detracting and rayling against the Catholicke Roman Church you doe the like d You say so but you â—ay more then you can proue At euerie vvord they did alleage the Scriptures in their Sermons to confirme their doctrine as you doe for yours That that they preached was called by them the Gospel the pure vvorde of the Lord these are the verie tearmes that you vse among your holie prophetes they haue beene condemned as heretiques by the generall Councels e Not yet by any lawful and f ee geneâ—al councel was euer our religioÌ„ or any point of it condemned you are so likewise They did appeale vnto the pure vvord of God you doe the like Yet are they proued to be false f This iâ— flat dogs eloquence cogging knaues and so shal you Then seeing there is so great an vniformitie betvveene you vpon vvhat grounde g Vpon this that we are able to iustifie our alleaging of them to to be sound and catholicke which they are not shall vvee confirme that reason that shoulde condemne them as heretiques allow you for Catholicks h This question is rather meete to be proposed to you who haue learned of the Donatists to tye the Church to your popes sleue and to shut it vp within the narrow limits of his dominion S. Augustine in his Epistle 161. did put vnto a Donatist called Honoratus this probleme We desire thee not to thinke it much to answere vs to this what cause doest thou know or what thing hath there beene done that hath made Chirst loose his inheritance spred ouer all the world to coÌ„e to be contained onely in Affricke there onelie to remaine We put the like question to i Though your popish Church hath bene none of his â—nheritaÌ„ce a good while yet he hath had his inheritance alwaies and euer will haue and this we hold and teach and therefore your question is vâ—iâ—e friuolous and flaâ—â—eâ—ous Caluin Beza Viret the rest that it may please theÌ„ to tel vs if that by chauÌ„ce they haue bene aduertised through what occasion our Sauiour Christ hath lost his inheritaunce that is to say the Church spread ouer all the world to remaine now in the later daies with a coÌ„panie of rude Swizers or in two or three corners besides not among the rest for there is a great number of good Catholickes what badge caÌ„ you shew or what signe to make vs know that you are the successours of the Apostles of Christ If that the Scriptures that you alleage ought to be a sufficient proofe we are content to accept it k There as no need that we should doe so because we can proue that we alleadge them soundly they falsely corruptly if you will be content to grant
the like vnto the aboue named heretickes which haue fortified their caÌ„pe with as manie places more then you doe alleage Now if that notwithstaÌ„ding the scriptures by theÌ„ alleaged you doe condemne theÌ„ as hereticks because that they did interpret theÌ„ coÌ„trary to that that the l Vnderstanding by the Church the true Church that is one of our reasons but that is not al why we reiect them and their maner of alleaging them principally we reiect them because by the plaine euidence of the scriptures we can confute â—hem And to despise the iudgement of the popish Church is not to despise the iudgement of the true Church of Christ church doeth teach to saie trueth you can imagin no other excuse to what purpose doe you take vpon you the names of Catholickes seeing that you commit the like offence The diuersities of those olde heresies grounded vpon the Scriptures ill interpreted doe teach vs that vvee shoulde not permit the noise of your reformed Gospell that soundeth so shrill to make vs reele froÌ„ a Yours is but ancient as Ieroboams religion was when the 10 tribes were brought into captiuity our ancient faith without going so farre to seeke that that we haue so neere at haÌ„d Let vs talke of the present time how manie coÌ„trarie sects doth there raigne How manie heads of heresies b With variety of names you need lesly increase the number as your forfathers were woont to doe with those whoÌ„ they first called Waldenses Some are Lutherans some Anabaptists some PuritaÌ„s some ProtestaÌ„ts some PrecisiaÌ„s all these doe fortifie their caÌ„pes with Scriptures to fight one against another The ZuingliaÌ„s the Caluinists on the other side doe write that al these doe erre and they proue it by Scripture The Anabaptists laugh at al the rest The Prophets Celestes which is another sect doe no lesse grounding themselues vpon their reuelations because that Dauid saieth * Psalm 84. Heare what the Lorde doeth speake in me The Deists or Trinitaries which are come last of al crie out and saie that all they are heretickes and they proue it by the olde and new Testament I praie now tell me which of al these shall I receiue seeing that they doe all alleage the holie Scriptures If we receiue some and not all those that are refused will saie that wee offer them wrong for they haue c This is but your saying still for you shall neuer be able to proue this their shoppes stored with as good stuffe of the scriptures and aswell alleadged as all the rest If we receiue them all it will be a renewing of the olde confusion of Babylon through the neglecting of so manie Gospels If you saie that we ought to follow those that conforme themselues most vnto the pure vvord of God that will come to one ende for if I doe demaunde of you how we shall know which doe conforme themselues most vnto the trueth d Indeade we say and we are not ashamed of it that onely by the assistance direction of the holy Ghost in trying their interpretations by the scriptures it must be discerned who alleâ—geth them best you answere me that it must be done by the grace of the holie Ghost sent by the Lord if with a true heart he is inuocated of the faithful Seeing you know so wel the way how to agree togither how coÌ„meth it to passe that you haue not vsed it this fortie or fiftie yeares which are the precincts of the time since your ancient Church began seeing that you haue assembled so manie times togither e We haue done so and Gods name be praised for it so far we haue obtained our praier that we are able by the light of Gods spirit to discerne who amongst all these and all others amongst whom you papistes are the principall alleages them best with those we holde peace for the rest we morne yet comforting of our selues with this that necessary it is for the trial of the Lords that there be such sects why haue yee not praied vnto the Lorde to sende the spirit of trueth to make peace amongst his Apostles I thinke that you are not so vnshamefast that you will denie the quarels and debates that haue risen among you f The stirre betwixt these two though it hath bene more then should bee yet neither so much hath it bene at least for the followers of Caluin as you woulde seeme nor nothing comparable to the brawlings and furious contentions amongst your selues often I doe not say in light words but in great battailes in railing processes in horrible excoÌ„munications sent from the Churches of the Lutherans vnto the Caluinists froÌ„ the Caluinists vnto the Lutherans as I haue set forth at large in the booke that I made of the Sacrament therefore yee are greatly ouerseene that ye haue not inuocated the spirit of the Lorde as Caluin hath taught you in his Catechisme to the end that you may come to some accorde The XXVII Chapter FIrst here you aske vs whither it be good to beleeue al maner of people that alleage scripture We answere you no but with S. Ioh. 1. Epist 4. We wish all men to trie the spirits whither they be of God or no before they beleeue theÌ„ And we adde further with Iohn in the same place Hereby shall yee knowe the spirit of God Euery spirit that confesseth that Iesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God and that spirit which confesseth not that is not of God but is the spirit of Antichrist By which wordes wee answere fullie your second demaunde also and giue you a proofe that our spirit is of God and yet neither these heretiques which you name nor yours any better then that spirit of Antichrist which Iohn speaketh of For I am sure you must needs graunt mee if you consider these wordes of Saint Iohn well that hee speaketh here onelie of confessing soundlie and rightly that Iesus Christ is come in the flesh which wee doe as wee are able to proue by the Scriptures truelie alleadged and neither they nor you are able to proue that and therefore this is a plaine proofe that ours is of God and neither yours nor theirs can be They confesse him not aright to be come in the flesh in that one way or other they erred not onelie in the doctrine of his office but also held some heresie or other against the trueth of his person And you confesse him not aright to be come in the flesh because not onely with some of the ancieÌ„t heretiques as namelie the Marcionites for the loue you haue to your fiction of TraÌ„substaÌ„tiation you hold him to haue such flesh as shall for your peeuish pleasures be without all the naturall properties of humane flesh and so a very phantasme and not flesh indeed but also most craftily you take from him that glorious office that the Scripture giueth him and translate it to what you list
of those men then we shall be this other way Seeing therefore Christ tooke this way himselfe both with the deuil himselfe with his chaplaines both to confute their errours erroneous interpretations to confirme the trueth by searching the scriptures and neither he nor his Apostles sent vs either by word or their example to the high Priests then or vnto any other for resolutioÌ„ of the church or trueth this way as the best only way we thinke all ChristiaÌ„s bound to take And in so doing let not any man despaire but that through the goodnes of God he shal be inabled to trie the spirits to discerne who amongst all other alleadge the scriptures soundliest For we see it is the fashion of our God to reueile his trueth and the misteries thereof to those that be his how simple soeuer when he doeth conceale hide them from the great men of the world Mat. 11.1 Cor. 1. But you say If this may and must be atteined by the grace of the holy ghost obteined of the lord by faithfull inuocatioÌ„ of his name how chanceth it that since Luther for no ancienter you say though it be neuer so false our ReligioÌ„ is you haue not obteined that holy ghost to ende your hoat contentions and debates amoÌ„gst your selues that so you might be at vnity yet amoÌ„gst your selues This is spoken as though it must needes follow that either we haue not faithfully praied vnto God for his spirit or els if we haue that then of necessity there neither could be nor would be any difference of opinions and contentions at all amongst vs. If you be of this mind then the manifold differences schismes sects varieties of opinions that haue beene and yet are in your church as I haue noted cap. 4. argueth in your Logicke that your church neuer yet praied faithfully and effectually for the holy ghost But indeede your argumeÌ„t is naught For it appeareth Ioh. 17. that Christ himselfe praied for vnity amongst his Apostles and all that should beleeue their doctrine no doubt of it he was heard in that he praied for Heb. 5.7 and obteined for his heaueÌ„ly father would deny him nothing and yet you haue heard cap 4. after this there were varieties of opinions and hoate contentions betwixt some of them that doubtles of both parts were within the compasse of Christes praier And therefore that praier of Christ and the prayers of his seruants made to that ende are to be vnderstoode to take place and to be effectuall in that there is so much vnity amongst the true members of the Church atteined thereby as is sufficient to holde them togither in the communion of saints which is if they ioyne togither in holding the foundation and fundamentall points of Religion though otherwise there be differences and hâ—at contentions sometimes amongst them And it may not be thought as you seeme to take it that such prayers either are not effectually made or els there must followe thereupon simply an vniuersall accorde in all things For then Christes prayer was not effectuall in that after Paul and Barnabas were at aâ—arre Act. 15. c. That vnity that you speake of the Church may striue for here but she is not to make her account to atteine vnto it before she come in heauen and bee maried to her husband there And so much vnity there is betwixt vs and those whom we count members of Christes Church with vs as that though there be some variety of opinions and therefore also contention but too much yet we ioyne so togither here in the foundation and other most principal points of our Religion that we doubt not but the Lord hath heard our praiers and graunted vs the spirit of vnity so farre forth as that one daie we hope in heauen all to ioine together in perfect vnity notwithstanding the iarres that otherwise in the meane time to trie vs withall be fouÌ„d amongst vs. You know we praie daily that Gods will may be done in earth as it is in heauen and so doe you or you are to blame and herein we hope we are heard and yet simply we neuer found nor shall as long as the world standeth the will of God so done here as it is in heauen For continually there is disobedieÌ„ce to his will here in one thing or other one way or other euen amongst the best but in that in such measure as God seeth this fit to be obteined here he granteth it we are notwithstanding to thinke our prayers effectuall Christ himselfe praied Iohn 17.15 to deliuer his church from euill and yet though that prayer was heard in that God so farre forth preserueth his church from euill as he seeth it expedient for the state thereof here we see daily that many are the troubles and euils that the poore church is encombred withall And therefore to conclude you must vnderstaÌ„d that the faithfull praiers of Gods saints are to be accounted effectuall though the thing they pray for be not obteined in full perfection here as long as so much here is obteined as the Lorde seeth to bee necessary and conuenient for the estate of his seruantes So that notwithstanding the differences amongst vs you might and would if you had the grace ioyne rather with vs in our Religion then continue in that wherein you are the professours whereof are torne a sunder with moe and greater differences then the churches that receaue ours are howsoeuer you deceiue the simple with the vizarde of vnity in that you ioyne together vnder your Pope against the trueth The XXVIII Chapter NOw to turne againe to our former purpose if it were so that of our owne free deliberation wee were minded to forsake our Catholique Religion a If you should be of no Religion whiles all of one were full of one mindâ— you must die a nullifidian I warrant you the iniurious disputations that you vse among your selues were sufficieÌ„t to make vs to suspeÌ„d our iudgemeÌ„t without leauing to any of both parties vntill that we could see more resolute in your opinioÌ„s being the bardest matter the knowing in what cuÌ„try the residence should be kept for that matter b Where wheÌ„ nay our absolute sentence iâ— as our bookes doe testifie and we proue it out of the ancient fathers that your doctrine in this point is but new a very young â—â—ng in comparison of that you would here haue it seeme You haue giueÌ„ absolute senteÌ„ce saying that the Catholique church hath erred euen froÌ„ the Apostles time vnto this present in praying to God for the soules of those that are deade constituted in a third place called Purgatorie You should mee thinke at the least allowe a third place although it bee not that to receaue the soules of those whose consciences you haue so troubled that they know now neither what is their faith nor of what ReligioÌ„ they should be c Such vâ—setled and vnstable persons for all your foolish
yet without fruit to the receiuer the benefit indeed arising by his presence onely to the faith of the communicant the matter is not of so great moment weight as that either you should neede to make such a doe about or that the maintainers therof should neede to striue so eagerly for Which I hope God will in his good time reueale vnto them and so make them to giue ouer their contention and to grow into vnity in this matter with their brethren I cannot but tell you yet before I end this Chapter that you verie greatly belie vs when you write that we haue giuen absolute sentence that the catholique Church hath erred euen from the Apostles times vnto this present in praying to God for the soules of those that are dead constituted in a third place called Purgatorie For both your deuyses of Purgatorie and of praying to God for the releife of soules there wee saie and constantly defend to bee but popish deuises founde out and grounded but vpon humane reason dreames and fond visions and apparitions and neither taught by the Apostles nor any true pastour of the Church of Christ for three hundred yeares at least after Christ Tertullian was the first and that in a booke writen by him when hee was a Montanist that makes any mention towardes the allowance of prayer for the dead And vntill the Florentine councell the greeke Church could not be brought to ioine with you in this doctrine of yours as you knowe well inough And therefore it had beene more for your credit and honestie to haue spared this your merrie conceit and pleasant deuise of wishing vs though wee refuse your Purgatory to prouide a thirde place for them whom our contentions make constant on neither side For either if you had beene wise you would haue vttered that your conceit with more trueth in your first entrance into it or els you would haue let it alone for altogither The XXIX Chapter IT doeth appeare well by that that I haue saied howe the assurance of your vocation to the ministerie is but founded vpon sande for asmuch as you doe seeke particulerlie a contrarie meaning euerie one to his ovvne particuler sense beeing not this the waie that an extraordinary minister sent from God shoulde vse to confirme his doctrine for this hath beene the custome of all olde heretiques as I haue alreadie saied There is a verie great difference betweene setting forth the Scripture to refourme ones religion and to reforme ones conditions for when there is anie question of the refourming of ones maners a Good stuffe by this diuinity then men may by the warrant of the Apostle take the scriptures in diuers and sundry sences there is no need to regard whether the doctrine be new or olde for as the Apostle saieth let euery man take it to his owne sense but when it is to bee talked of as touching ones faith the Catholique ought greatly to beware of b And such be all they whosoeuer made them that will not stand with the rest of the scriptures of whâ—ch kinde your popish interpretations be singular interpretations and to holde them as very suspitious c If this rule be receiued and followed your popery will bee found new deuises and wil you nil you you shall become all one with 〈◊〉 He ought to follow the sentence that is holden and taught by the ancient Catholique Church without making any accompt of al these new deuises for euen as when one will repaire an olde house he dares commit it to any mason although his cunning bee but small but if the foundation must be touched he will seeke the best masters he can finde Euen so when one will correct me for my euill life or conditions although that it be so that he that seekes to reforme me be not of the wisest of the worlde and that he alleadge to me some place or figure of the scripture not altogither to the purpose yet all this ought to turne to me to one effect for I knowe his meaning although he cannot well expresse it the which is to haue me change my naughty life and to leaue my ill conditions d But all the packe of you shall neuer be able to proue â—opery to be thus grounded But when he shall come to touch my faith and to perswade me froÌ„ that that all my ancetours did euer holde from that that the Catholique church deriued from the Apostles hath holden and doeth holde and from that that both the Scripture and the generall Councels and all the ancient doctours teach and affirme in the repaire of this foundation I ought to trust none but euen the verie best I meane not one or two but all these that I haue named And now if you saie that they maie all erre I praie remember the olde prouerbe that saieth he is a foole that thinketh that he onlie is wise and all the other fooles that it is more agreeable to reason that one onely should erre then one great multitude for as they say commonly two eies see more then one and foure more then two The XXIX Chapter WHat you haue gained by all you haue hitherto writen to disproue either our vocatioÌ„ or Religion for all your great bragge here in the beginning of this Chapter by weighing togither your obiections and my answers now let the indifferent Reader iudge vnto whom I doubt not your bragge notwithstanding it shall and will well appeare that both may be builded vpon the rocke for any thing you haue yet saied The onely new thing that you set downe in this Chapter is this that the former variety amongst theÌ„ that alleadge scripture considered you allow well that one should listen to meane men alleadging scripture though not very aptlie to reforme maners withall But when they are alleadged to teach faith then it is meete that the Catholique man trust none but the best and those alleadging them according to the general Councels and all ancient doctours And therefore you write that the Catholique must take heede of singular interpretations that he must follow the sentence helde taught by the ancient Catholique Church not suffer himselfe to be perswaded from that faith that all his ancetours did euer holde the Catholique Church hath euer helde the Scriptures generall Councels and all the ancieÌ„t doctours doe teach In which case if one should take vpoÌ„ him to be wiser then all these you would haue him according to the prouerbe accounted a foole that thinketh himselfe onely wise and all others fooles because in reason it is more likely that one should erre then al these c. Be it that al this were very true what haue you woonne hereby against vs For neither shall you euer be able to proue as we haue often tolde you that your religion is that ancient Catholique religion nor your Church to be the ancient catholique Church nor that your Church hath either the Scriptures general councels or
is no reason in the world why you should count from that yeare for neither Daniels words will beare it neither yet the true account of the time from thence to Christs death for that was about the yeare of the world 3354 and he suffâ—ed Anno. 3996. as Functius calculateth Neither is there any mention in Dan of 72. weekes but of 70 of numbers whereinto he deuideth that Beside it seemeth that your Arithmetique or wits were very sleÌ„der to reckon 72. weekeâ— that is so maâ—y times 7. years to be iust fiue hundred when as if you account againe you shall finde that your number is not so iust by 4. as you would seene for 72. times 7. makes 504. A shaâ—efull learned man sure you haue shewed your selfe here but he did assigne the very time that is to say by the seuenty two weekes counting from the fourth yeare of the raigne of Zedechias vntil the time that our Sauiour was naâ—â—ed vpon the Crosse the which time was iust 5. huÌ„dred years TheÌ„ seeing that Christ came at the verie prescribed time he might well haue saied vnto the Iewes that the Scriptures did beare witnes of him But yet to say the trueth if he had done no other but this he had not fully approued his vocation to condemne their incredulity For they might haue saied vnto him we know wel that by the saying of the olde prophetes the Messias should come of the line of Iacob about this time forasmuch as the scepter of this kingdome is taken froÌ„ the line of Iuda to be deliuered vnto Herod But what though is this a good consequence a But now that tâ—is point is sufficiently confirmed already so also al the doctrine of the gospel by him and his Apostles therefore now to refuse to beleeue the ordinarie ministers of the Church vnles they proue the same againe by miracles which is your deaâ—ing with vs is an euident signe of vnbeliefe the Messiaâ— ought to coÌ„e about this time therefore it is I No no shew vs your coÌ„mission let vs see some signes how we shal know it for if we should receiue you as our king it may be that some other would come and craue the like saying that we were abused Our Sauiour Christ sore fearing this obiection toâ—ke another witnes with him besides the scripture I meane his miracles The workes that I doe saieth * John 5. Christ in the name of my father beare witnesse of me The like proofe is made wheÌ„ S. Ioh. * Mat. 11. Baptist sent his disciples to our Sauiour to haue him teach the true beliefe that they should haue in him this question was put to him art thou he that should come or ought we to attend for some other Go your waies saied Christ and tel Iohn what yee haue heard and seene The blinde receiue their sight the lame doe walke vpright the dumbe speake the deafe heare the lepers are cured the dead are raised againe and the poore are preached vnto the which is as much to say as tel Iohn that I am the true Messias that he ought to attend â—â— other I doe verifie my doctrine both by the Scripture and by Miracles For first Esay doeth write that when the Messias should come he should doe the Miracles aboue mentioned Then seeing that I haue done theÌ„ in your presence it foloweth that I am he that should come Thus you see Sirs that both the b And by the same scriptures and by the same Miracles we iustifie our vocatioÌ„ and religion what wil you haue more Scripture and Miracles were necessarie for the confirmation of the comming of Christ among the Iewes who were neuer harder of beleife then we are according to your opinion and therefore blame vs not if we sende you packing like Coggers of the Scriptures c But they doe 2. Thess 2. Apoc 14. vers 8.6 and 7. the which doe neither beare witnes of your comming nor yet doe any miracles the which two thinges and more are necessary to make vs beleeue your reformed Gospell The XXX Chapter THe drift of this Chapter is to proue that Christ did not onely warraÌ„t his vocatioÌ„ doctrine by the testimonies of the Scriptures but also by miracles which I grant you proue sufficiently Wherupon you would coÌ„clude that we accouÌ„ting you as hard of beleife as euer were the Iewes therefore we should proue our calling and religion vnto you by both whereas if it be true that you say we can doe neither and so are to bee sent packing like coggers onely of the Scriptures Whither the Scriptures giue testimony vnto our religion or no. I referre to the reader to iudge by that which I haue writen already by that we haue writen from time to time in our bookes made in the defence of our religion And concerning our vocation and calling I trust I haue sufficiently confirmed that by theÌ„ also in that I haue shewed our calling to be conformable to the calling of true Pastors in the Apostles time But if further you require a more speciall testimony from thence of our comming by our calling I sende you now to 2. Thess 2.8 and Reuel 14.6 c. where it is prophecied that God would towards the later end send his messeÌ„gers againe to consume Antichrist and by preaching the euerlasting Gospel to ouerthrow Babylon And as touching miracles you haue bene answered sufficiently already but that you complaine not that we refuse to answere you as long as you can obiect any thing to this now alleadged I say that you must vnderstand that it was necessary for Christ to confirme his calling by miracles because it is true as you alleage out of Esay that it was prophecied that the Messias should worke miracles when he came so also it was necessary once to establish and confirme the particular doctrine of his person the ceasing of the ceremonies of Moses law and other such new strange things as the comming of the Messias brought with it both to Iew and Gentile which reasons you cannot shew why we should work miracles now to confirme our vocation or religion by to you For neither was it prophecied that the ministers of Christ should bring Antichrist to consumption or the whore of Babylon to her fall by working of miracles but as you haue heard by the spirit of Gods mouth breathing in his euerlasting gospell the force whereof in our ministry you perceiue daily to be such that it is eueÌ„ a miracle and wonder vnto you to see in how short time it hath preuailed and preuaileth still against your kingdome doe you what you can to let it neither neede those things so notably once confirmed by Christ and his Apostles which are the onely things that wee teach to be for your sakes confirmed againe though you be neuer so harde hearted The word writeÌ„ and the miracles therin recorded already must serue the turne to conuert you to our religion therein taught and
done so likewise therein your fault is double For first in so saying you tearme the Religion for the which they whom you call Caluinists and Lutherans died false which you shall neuer be able to proue so to be and secondly in so saying you would seeme to make your Reader beleeue that amongst those whom you call Lutherans some haue died euen for the confirmation of their singular opinion wherein they differ from their brethren whom you call Caluinists and that so some haue died for the confirmation of Zuenfeldius vanities which is more also then you can proue I am fully perswaded The XXXIII Chapter SOme of your godly sect to a If you had meant to deale plainely you should haue named the man the place where any of vs do thus childishly reasoÌ„ verifie that the vocation of your ministrie doeth come of God doe set before our eies the holines of those new Christians that is to saie how they neuer sweare but yea for yea and no for no that they doe no wrong to no man that they doe neither robbe nor steale but that they are content with that that God hath sent them that they are very charitable to the poore then seeing that our sauiour doeth saie that one shall know the tree by the fruit b â—ndeede we may truely say howsoeuer some that professe our religion either through the coÌ„mon frailty of man or hypocrisie haue too too little of this fruit growing of theÌ„ that yet if they should follow the rules of our religion they should bear this sweet pleasant fruit abundaÌ„tly we ought to confesse saie they that the tree being good the fruit is good that is to saie their Religion is good seeing that by the grace of God it doeth produce such sweet pleasant fruite I answere you first to this that our sauiour doeth not euer giue generall rules but that that most commonly doeth happen as when he saieth that * Luc 6. of the abundance of the hart the mouth speaketh would you affirme by this that his meaning was vniuersally God forbid that he that is the authour of all trueth should meane so starke a lie Doe you not remember what speech he did vse to the Pharisees wheÌ„ he saied * Mat. 15. this people doe honour me with their mouthes but their hearts are farre from me you see that this sentence is contrary to the other if you doe not vnderstand it as I haue saied that is to saie that manie times a man doeth vtter that that is in his heart as a ruffian takes great pleasure to talke of quarels a proude person to talke of hautie enterprises a couetous man to talke of riches or gaines and so it is of all other sinnes But with all this a man may not affirme truely that hypocrisie doeth neuer raigne in their hearts whose mouthes are full of Gods word * Dan. 19. The Iudges of S. Susan had not they God and his lawes in their mouthes and the Deuill in their hearts * John 18. We haue a lawe saied the Iewes and Pharisees against Christ and according to this lawe giuen vs by Moses he ought to die The zeale of iustice did sound in their mouthes and hatefull enuie did dwell in their heartes And therefore you see manie times that man doeth speake contrarie to that that hee thinketh and euen so it is of the sentence of our Sauiour when he saieth that by the fruite one shall knowe the tree For manie times naturally the fruit is good although the tree be worth nothing c The heatheÌ„ Philosophers liues howsoeuer they caried a shew of the matter of holines they caÌ„not be said to be holy good indeed because their workes were without faith lacked the form of good workes as the famous liues and workes of diuerse heathen Philosophers doe witnesse of whom the holines and scrupulosity of conscience was such that I doe beleeue assuredly that at the daie of iudgement a great number of Christians which leade Painims liues will be confouÌ„ded with the example of those men that knew not God Thus of the first the fruite is good but the trees are worth nothing for their Religion was false Idolatrous applying as S. * Rom. 1. Paul doeth saie the truth of God to vnrighteousnes And as for the second the trees are good being grafted vpoÌ„ the true Catholique Religion but the fruites doe degenerate from the stocke The XXXIII Chapter IN this Chapter you saie that some of vs haue gone about to iustifie that our vocation is of God by the holines of life found amongst vs because Christ hath saied The tree is knowen by his fruit and the good tree bringeth forth good fruite Mat. 7.17 Howsoeuer thus you would perswade your reader that wee are driuen to vse these kinde of arguments taken from the shew of patience in our Martyrs and the goodnes of the liues of the professors of our religion the trueth is though sometime the goodnes of their cause considered we take comfort in their patience and the reformation that our religion hath wrought in many remembred in some sort we reioice therof also yet neuer did we build the credit of our vocation or religion vpon either of these For we know there may be hath bene great shew of patieÌ„ce in such as haue died for heresie and that religion is not to be iudged either by the badnes or shew of goodnes in the liues of them that professe it For both amongst the professours of sound Religion we know there hath alwaies beene are and will be some lewd liuers and also amongst those of a false Religion thorow the force of hypocrisy and superstition there hath beene found and may be still a marueilous great outward shew of holines and piety And therefore doe we alwaies teach our hearers readers to learne to discerne the true Religion from the false by searching the Scriptures and not by viewe of these thinges which therein may deceiue them Wherefore you might very well haue eased both your reader your selfe of all the paines you haue taken about this matter in these foure next Chapters Howbeit seing you could aforde so much needeles paines to disgrace what you could the profession of the trueth I will bee contented to take so much paines as to weigh what you haue saied and giue you such answere as you deserue for the maintenance of the credit thereof In this Chapter first you would proue by conference of this foresaied rule of Christ with this saying Luke 6. Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh that it is no more generall theÌ„ that For after out of Math. 15. and other places you haue shewed that notwithstanding that saying of Christ man oftentimes speaketh otherwise then it is in his heart you conclude euen so is it many times naturally the fruite is good when the tree is naught as in the good liues of many heathen
they left in writtng by the ordinance of God to confute such heretiques as you are The XXXVII Chapter AT last it seemeth by your paines taken in this Chapter you be thought your selfe that forasmuch as hitherto onelie in bare and naked wordes you had vaunted and bragged your Religion to be the ancient Religion that it was needefull for you euē for shame before you made a full end of your booke to yeeld vs some reasons and grounds or at least some shew colour of your so lewd and bold boasting And therefore here now at last to that ende you haue mustered the bare names of a few ancient fathers very prouidently leauing your Readers to the examining of your quotations amōgst whom not one of an hundreth you knew either for lacke of skill or will leasure or bookes could and would turne to the places in the authours themselues You thought belike your credit to bee such that they must needes beleeue that you cite thē truely and faithfully and that because you so roundly haue huddled them togither that therefore also out of all question they spake and wrotefully for you in the points you alleadge them for What smal cause there is either for you to looke thus to bee trusted or for any to yeelde you such credit herein wee shall see anone when wee come to the examining of your quotations In the meane time what ment you by this thus onely when all commeth to al to countenance these 4 points your Ceremonies in baptisme confession before the sacrament praiers to the Saints departed and praier for the dead Are these the greatest matters of your religion in question Or doeth it especially depend vpon these 4 and the coūtenancing of these Or was your prouision ready for no more that but once in all your booke you seeming to set downe the authorities whereupon you ground your religion you would take the paines to go no further then to these 4 points Indeed in your next Chapter you excuse your selfe and say that you would haue gone likewise on to confirme the rest but for being tedious to your reader Truely he is much beholden to you for your discreet kindnes towards him that haue not spared to be tedious vnto him in al the rest of your book in troubling of him with such a number of proud brags of the antiquity and catholikenes of al your religion as you haue and with many needles and friuolous long discourses besides and now when you came to the point indeed which of all other was most materiall and wherein both for his satisfaction and your owne credit it stood you vpon most to enlarge your selfe then thus to shift him of with as good as nothing bearing him yet in hand that but for his ease you both could and would haue saied inough This is a common tricke amongst you thus to cozen and abuse your simple readers to weary them with things needles and then to slip ouer with some such shift as this matters most needful Wel concerning that which either you haue saied here for these 4 points or that which after you pretend if you had list you could haue easily saied for the rest this I would haue the reader diligently to note and marke that but for two places vainely alleaged to proue your confession that you neither haue alleaged any testimony of scripture at all for the proofe of these nor yet that you so much as say after you could or would for the rest Which argueth that euen in your owne conscience the best ground and countenance that your popish religion hath either in these points or in the rest is but from earth and not from heauen from men and not from the holy ghost For if you had beene able with any good colour to haue coūtenāced either these points or any of the rest out of Gods owne booke and writen word the reader may think that neither your zeale to your religion nor yet your boasting spirit which hitherto hath shewed it selfe ouerflowing in you either would or could haue suffered you thus much to the preiudice your whole cause cleane to haue forgotten so much as once to go about it But to say the trueth seeing it is confessed by your betters not onely that this but the most of all the rest of the points of your Religiō which we striue with you for are grounded but vpon tradition as I haue shewed out of Soto against Brentius Canisius fift Chapter of his Catechisme and Lyndans 100. Chapter of the fifth booke of his panoply before you are the honester man and the more a great deale to be liked for your thus secretly confessing the same with them Now yet by this the Reader may plainely vnderstand what hath indeede beene the reason why in all your booke hitherto you haue laboured so much as you haue to grace and countenance tradition and the exposition of the doctours and withall haue spent so much time in diswading the appealing to the Scriptures for the ending of the controuersies betwixt vs. You were wise enough it seemeth to see where your strength lay and from whēce would rise your bane and therefore who can blame you for leaning as you doe altogither to the one and shunning the other But then in reason yet you should call your Religion no more diuinity but humanity no more Theologie but patrologie and plainely confesse indeede from whence you haue all your figge leaues rags and clouts to couer your shame and nakednes Truely these you haue whatsoeuer in this respect you pretend not from the right and sound Apostolique tradition which alwaies was either expressed in Scripture or at least cōsonant vnto it nor from the ancient holy fathers rightly vnderstood and when they taught as it was of themselues acknowledged to be their duties with sound warrant from the scriptures as I haue sundry times shewed already but onely from forged or corrupt tradition and from the fathers either misunderstood or erring as men So that vnwriten verities or rather forgeries sentences of fathers mistaken or their verie errours whereof they would haue beene ashamed if they had had the meanes to helpe them to see them that you haue are the groundes pillers and bewties of your church and Religion And this we are alwaies ready to iustifie against you before the whole world by sound and inuincible proofe out of the vn doubted word of God interpreted according to the same rules of interpreting it that the holy and ancient fathers themselues haue followed in confuting all heretiques in their times by and which they haue likewise commended to others alwaies to be obserued and out of the vndoubted writings of the ancientest and best fathers them selues Wee are therefore verie well content to liue and die in that Church and Religion which we are sure we are able thus to iustifie and we enuy not you but rather heartely lament and pittie you that yours hath no better grounde then it hath But to
and would haue quoted these not in his name but in Ambroses But yet then you took your mark amisse also For he hath no bookes neither that simply cary these titles Indeed he hath writen fiue de fide ad Gratianum and one de fide orthodoxâ contra Arrianos and a booke he hath writen de his qui initiantur mysteriis and fiue de sacramentis but in no seuenth nor eleuenth Chapters of any of his bookes de fide or symbolo hath he any thing to serue your turne Neuer man therefore was so abused as you Master Albine were I thinke in taking so few quotations of credit I would therefore henceforth aduise you vnlesse you be euen resolued vtterly to leese your credit trust no more thus either other mens eies or fingers Well Basil and Arnobius are yet behinde let vs see if you hit any rightlier of your places out of them you cite Basils 15 and 75 Chapters de Spiritu Sancto and Arnobius vpon the 27 Psalme Neither of which you haue rightly quoted For there are but 30 Chapters in al Basils booke de Spiritu Sancto as Erasmus hath translated him caused him to bee published and Arnobius vpon the twenty seuen Psalme hath not at all mentioned any ceremony about baptisme Basil in his fifteene and twenty seuen Chapters of that booke and Arnobius vpon the seuenty fiue Psalme make mention of abrenuntiation of some other ceremonies before mentioned by the other fathers but yet neither these nor all the other laied togither that you haue named either in the places mentioned by you nor any where else mention al the ceremonies which you vse by far though you would by your lowd bragging make your reader beleeue they doe Thus you see vnlesse you had beene disposed vtterly for euer to shame your selfe you could not in so few quotations especially not set on your margent but in your lines as they are the better to preuent wrong applying of them haue beene taken with thus many grosse ouersightes May not any man worthilie thinke you hereby iudge that howsoeuer the names of the fathers are familiar with you that yet you are a verie stranger in their workes indeed Of twenty places you haue alleadged aright and to the purpose scarse fiue and of seuen fathers belike because you would not deale partiallie with them your happe hath beene one waie or other to erre in quoting of euerie one of them Surelie you are worthie to bee trusted vpon your bare word without any further examination of your quotations an other time you haue dealt so faythfully and vprightlie in these And to conclude this point withall as though you had most rightly quoted and that they most pregnantlie had iustified all your Ceremonies as you vse them you confidently tell your reader that if hee will reade these places hee shall finde that they did vse the verie Ceremonies that you doe vse and wee so much myslike Thus yet you coulde set a good face on the matter though you could doe little else But in good earnest is it your meaning by these places to make mē before that none are to be accoūted rightly baptised vnles vnto him all these your ceremonies which you talke of be vsed What say you then to Christs baptisme and the multitudes baptised by Iohn in Iorden and after by the Apostles sometimes in one day in water that was next to hād Sure I am that none of your ceremonies that you striue for here so much which we mislike was vsed then to anie of them and yet I am sure neuer were any with these ceremonies of yours better baptized then these were Nay to presse you a litle further if these ceremonies were so necessarie as you pretend how chāceth it that aboue 600. yeares after Christ that is long after any of the fathers you haue named to countenance them withal we read in Bedaes story so often mētion as we do of so great multitudes here in England by famous Bishops baptised in one daie in common riuers It is vnpossible that they should baptise so many in so short time as that story shewes they did and yet vse to euery one all the solemnity of ceremonies that you here thus pleade for It is cleare thē by that practise that for all this and whatsoeuer else any where either these or any other doctour before that time had writen hereof that then there was no such danger imagined to bee in omitting of these as your Tridentine coūcell now would make men beleeue there is But for a general answere to al that you or any of your side haue or can alleadge out of any father either for the iustifying your kinde of vsing these your ceremonies or any of the other three points that follow in this Chapter as long as you are not able to warrant your doings and opiniōs therin by the scriptures which we are sure you shall neuer be able to doe by the fathers leaue though they were as pregnant for you as you pretend which they are not neither that by the direction and aduise of the best of themselues we will may chuse for all their writings whither we will like any whit the better of them or no. For Hierom saieth that all things which mē seeke out and inuent at their owne pleasure without authority and testimony of the scripture as though they were the traditions of the Apostles the sword of God cutteth of Vpon the first of Aggei And Origen in his first homily vpon Hierom confesseth that their iudgements without witnes of the scripture were of no credit And Hierom againe vpon the 98. Psalme writeth that all which they spake they were to proue by the scriptures and vpon the 23. of Mat. he saieth plainely that which hath not authority from the scriptures as easily is despised as approued And Chrysostome vpon the 2. to Tim. Hom. 9. saieth if there be any thing either to learne or to be ignorant of we shall learne it in the scriptures And as for all other authority Hilary saieth in his 7. booke of the trinity that it is short darke troublesome And as for Augustine he of all the rest hath most plainely taught vs this in his 19. Epistle to Hierom and also in his 111. epistle to Fortunatian where he plainely shewes that hee gaue no further credit to any mans writings then he found them agreeable to the scriptures and therefore de baptismo contra Donatistas li. 2. cap. 3. he refuseth to be pressed either with the authority of Cyprian or any other man or councell further then by the canonicall scriptures their iudgements are approued and he teacheth Paulina in his 112. epistle not to follow his authority or to beleeue a thing because he hath said it but to beleue the canonicall scripture We saie therefore with him lib. 1. cap. 22. de peccatorum meritis remissione let vs yeeld cōsent vnto the holy scriptures which can neither deceaue nor be deceaued
occasion serueth wee are farre before you how short soeuer wee come of you in allowing your auricular confession which is the onelie kinde of confession that you plead here for For looking first into the scriptures and then into the ancient fathers these are the onely kinds of so confessing agrees on by one consent of them needful to be practised First that euery one of Gods people shoulde by the due meditation dailie of his lawe so bring all his sinnes originall and actuall small and great publicke and secret to his remembrance that in trueth hee may saie with Dauid Psalme fiftie one in respect of them all in some good measure I knowe mine iniquities and my sinne is alway before mee that so with a contrite heart hope of Gods mercy and purpose of amendment hee maie confesse them vnto God both priuately and publickely generally and particulerly also vpon iust occasions we all with the Scriptures and fathers allow teach and practise For it is well knowen in respect of this kinde of confession of sins wee teach with Salomon prouerb the twenty eightth hee that hideth his sinnes hee shall not prosper but he that confesseth them and forsaketh them shall haue mercy And therefore beside our often confessing our sinnes vnto God against our selues in priuate in all our ordinary prayers either at home in our families or in publicke in our assemblies and congregations especially before the receiuing of the sacrament we make humble confession of all our sinnes and vnworthinesse generally vnto God Thus did Dauid Psalme thirty two and fifty one thus did Daniel Daniel the ninth and Ezra Ezra the ninth yea thus did the publican Luke the eighteenth they that were baptized of Iohn in Iordan Matthew the third and the beleeuers that we read of Actes the nineteenth vers eighteenth and nineteenth confesse their sinnes before God This we count a necessary fruit of repentance a good meanes to humble vs in the presence of God and a way to aduaunce both the iustice and mercy of our God And to this we knowe both the Scriptures and fathers all with one consent exhort vs but especiallie amongst the fathers Chrysostome is earnest to perswade this kinde of confession of sinnes to God aboue all other as it is to be seene in him vpon the fifty Psalme hom 2 vpon Matthew hom 3 vpon Genesis hom twenty and vpon the twelfth of the Hebrues hom the thirty one and else where often in his works As for particulerly confessing of our sinnes vnto God in the presence of the congregation as I sayed before also vpon iust and due occasion that is vrged taught and practised amongst vs. But then it is but when one falleth into some such notorious and great sinne publickely knowen to the offence of the Church for the which hee deserueth to bee excommunicated And this is either voluntarilie yeelded vnto and done by the partie that hath so offended to shew the better his repentance or it is by authoritie imposed vpon such for the terrour of others and satisfaction of the congregation offended And hereof in Scripture we haue example For Achans sinne that so troubled the congregation once being knowen and so publicke by Iosua hee is commaunded to giue glorie to God and so before Iosua and the people hee confesseth his sinne at the appointment of Iosua Iosua the seuenth it seemeth likewise that the incestuous Corinth did driuen thereunto by the authoritie and force of that censure that Paul and that Church layed vpon him 1. Corinthians 5. and 2. Epist second and seuenth Chapters And at the rebuke of Samuel the people particulerlie confessed their sinne in desiring a king 1. Samuel and twelfth and at the rebuke of Ezra we read also voluntarily they came that had contrary to the law of God maried strange wiues and publikely confessed their sinnes and amended that fault Ezra the tenth of such examples of particuler publicke confessing of notorious knowen faults the ecclesiasticall stories are full whereof some yeelded thereunto voluntarily who were alwaies best liked of and others by order of ecclesiastical censures were brought thereunto And for this kinde of publicke confessing of our sinnes to God also it cannot bee denied but herein wee are far beyond you in conforming our selues therein far more then you to the ancient presidenes thereof found both in Scripture and other antiquity Indeede I must needes confesse that I finde in the writings of the fathers especially in Cyprian sermone de lapsis in Tertullian de paenitentiâ and in Origen vpon the thirty seuen Psalme that they counted it a commendable thing and an argument of greater feare of God and loue if men would not onely thus confesse their notorious publickely knowen sins but also their secret notorious sinnes yea then very purposes onely to haue committed such sinnes But withall I finde that they saw such inconueniences to arise hereof that first they counselled such therein to be directed first by some godly discreet minister when they should so doe and when not and secondly are long they were driuen to thinke it needfull for the prouenting of some inconueniences onely to enioyne them some publicke punishment concealing the particularity of such their sinnes and thirdly I finde the by Leo his time this was thought to much also For he in his seuenty eight Epistle and as he is alleadged by Gratian de paenit Distinct 1. Cap. Quamuis sheweth his flat mislyke thereof determining it to bee farre better that the confession bee made onely to the minister But in the Greeke Church long before Leo his tyme as it appeareth in Zozomen libro 9. cap. 35. historiae tripart this publishing of sinnes by publicke confession or by enduring of some enioyned punishment publickely was giuen ouer and one appointed in Constantinople to heare the confessions of such as came vnto him which order also as it there appeareth was by Nectarius bishop there caused to be giuen ouer by occasion that a noble womaÌ„ confessed that she had lyen with a Deacon there in the Church whiles she was doing there the things y her coÌ„fessour had enioyned her So that to go on by these and other such places more in the fathers I finde that secret confession of sinnes to a minister indeede is ancient and also I must needs confesse I finde the fathers often exhorting-men so to confesse their sinnes but yet then good Christian reader thou must vnderstand that it was â—either vsed nor vrged but in certaine cases as when otherwise the party could not tell how to comfort himselfe vnder the burden of his sinne or to get out of the snares and fetters thereof It was neither taught nor vrged then as an ordinance of God to bee kept vnder paine of damnation as it is in the Church of Rome neither yet were they vrged to make such an exact enumeration of all their sinnes and the circumstances thereof as that Synagogue now teacheth For then durst not Nectarius as is aforesaied haue
for such as worshipped them as that thereby it may most clearely appeare that you haue no stay nor moderatiō at all whatsoeuer you say in praying to them Thus then thou maiest see Christian Reader for all M. Albines sending of thee to reade Origen Chrysostome Augustine and Hierom for the maintenance of his praying to the Saints in Paradise that not onely they haue quite forsaken him therein but that also both Scripture they and a number of ancient fathers besides haue condemned that their praying vnto Saints for grosse idolatry The most thou seest that any of the fathers quoted by him for this haue saied that hath any soūd the way is that they thought it was not inconuenient to thinke that the Saints in heauen praied for the Saints aliue yet vpon the earth and that therby they did them some good which as I haue shewed thee by good reasons proueth not that therefore they are to be praied vnto thus of vs. But to conclude this matter euen touching this point I would haue thee to vnderstand that the first brochers hereof they of the ancient fathers that most seemed to bee resolued of it yet spake thereof but stammeringly and doubtfully For thou hast heard Origen onely say that he thought it was not incōuenient to think so and vpon the second Chapter to the Romans moouing that question whether the soules of the Saints departed doe any thing and labour for vs as the Angels doe or no he in conclusion determineth that if they doe that yet it is amongst Gods secretes and that it is a mystery not to be committed to paper And Augustine de curâ agendâ pro mortuis inclines to the negatiue and therefore to that end alleadgeth that Esa 63. Abraham knoweth vs not and Israel hath forgot vs. And though Nazianzene seeme with Origen and Cyprian to think they doe pray for vs and procure vs good yet where he shewes himselfe to be most of that mind as in his oration of Basil and in his epitaph of his father he vttereth it not as a resolute trueth whereof he was sure but aduouching it addeth as I think if I be not deceaued or if it be not too much to say so which argueth that he was not perswaded and resolued that it was a plaine trueth taught in the worde but that onelie it was thought to bee a thing probable and possible and therefore this must needes be a weake ground to build so massy and huge a building vpon as the popish praying to Saints cōmeth to To conclude therefore this point in this case notably hath Augustine saied whē the question is of a thing most obscure the certaine and plaine instructions of the diuine authority not helping vs to decide the matter let mans presumption stay it selfe doing nothing by inclining rather to the one side then another De pec meritis lib. 2. cap. 36. And againe seeing it is euidēt that they haue no ground for it in scripture which some of the best of themselues confesse with Augustine let vs say both of this and that which they would builde thereon of Christ or of his Church or of any thing else which apperteineth to faith or life if we but as Paul saied if an Angell from heauen should preach vnto you beside that which yee haue receiued in the scriptures of the law the gospel let him be accursed contra literas Petil. lib. 3. Cap. 6. And so vpon these premisses boldly let vs conclude and say with him Non sit nobis religio cultus hominū mortuorū de verâ religione cap. 55. let it bee no part of our religion to worship dead men For as he there addeth If they liued godly indeed they are not now in that minde that they would haue such honours giuen them of vs but God they would haue vs worship Now we are come to the last point of your 4 which is praying for the dead for the which you wil vs to read two places in Tertullian one in Cyprian two in Origen one in Chrysostome and three in Augustine which at your request I hauing done though I must needes confesse this your errour in some of these hath more countenance and allowance giuen it then the former had yet I hope by that I haue done with you you shal haue as little cause to brag that all these Doctours teach you your kinde of praying for the dead as any of the former things that you haue alleadged any of them for for some of these your authours in these places you quote doe not so much as mētion praying for the dead at all onely they speake of a certaine purging paine after this life that diuersely some in one sence some in an other But I see in perusing these quotations that your leasure could aford to set downe for this point others that diuers of your side vpon deepe deliberation purpose to handle the matter as seriously as they could haue to this end remēbred that to make a shew of great proofe whē you haue very smal any place that in any sence maketh mention of purging after this life that serueth you woulde make your reader beleeue not only to proue your fained purgatorie but also to proue your praying for the dead and againe any place in what sence soeuer that mētioneth praying for the dead that must needs proue both purgatory your maner of praying to relieue souls there Which because it is the thing whereby both you are abused wherby most fondly yet absurdly in this case you alwaies seeke to abuse your poore simple reader before I proceede any further to examine your quotations I must labour somewhat to acquaint him wt. First therfore let him marke what force there is in this kind of argumēts Origē or some other father speaks of some purging paine after this life ergo of the popish purgatorie Augustine speaketh vnconstantly or very doubtfully of a purging paine or place after this life ergo questionles there is such a third place as the papists imagin such purging there is as they teach And there is such a place ergo they that be there must and can be relieued there by the praiers of the lyuing or in some sort the dead are to be remēbred in our praiers ergo they in that place therby to be releiued For these are the very argumēts which are by the mainteiners of praier for the dead and purgatory cōfusedly iumbled togither out of the fathers Secōdly for the better espying of the weakenes of al these argumēts he must vnderstand how variably vncertainly the fathers haue spokē writē of purging after this life how far frō the popish sēce likewise he must be aduertised how diuers waies remembrance may be made hath beene for the dead by the fathers and yet not in their sence Concerning the first wherof because Origen Augustine are two that Albin hath especially here named by their mentioning of purging after
contrariety betwixt the saied two bookes themselues by the authours crauing to be borne withall and by his seeming to iustify in those bookes cōtrary to the Canonicall scriptures indeede sundry things Secondly let any mā read 1. Mach. 7. 12. the 2.4.3 and 13. and he shall thereby most plainely see that in those times whereof those bookes containe the story there were wonderfull grosse corruptions directly contrary to the lawe of God crept in amongst the Iewes from the Gentiles and yet securely practised of them Thirdly this is to be considered that neither Iosephus writing the whole story of the Machabees nor yet the fift Chapter of the first booke where the same story is handled maketh any mention of this fact of Iudas Fourthly if we looke to his fact indeede as the authour setteth it forth in Greeke we shall finde that the trueth thereof was and is onely this that he finding two thousand slaine that tooke vpon them of their owne heads to fight with the Iannites without commandement of their Captaine of an ambitious minde to get themselues a name that vnder their garments they had things hid consecrated to the Gods of the Iannites euery man then seeing that that was the cause they were slaine therupon first hauing called his people together he exhorted them by that example to keepe themselues from sinne and to giue glory to the Lord for his righteous iudgement executed vpon them and to pray that the rest perished not for that their sinne be like hauing in remembrance the story of Achan Iosua 6. And this thus according to his exhortation done he made a collectiō of two thousand drachmaes sent them to Hierusalem to offer a sinne offering which if he did to appease the Lordes wrath that it should not burst out to the hurt of the rest as it did against the Israelites at the besiege of Ai Iosua the seuēth for the like sinne in Achan as it may be hee did hitherto hee did but well and with warrant from the twenty one of Deutronomie and seuenth of Iosua but here he staied not but as it appeareth by the authours owne wordes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 discoursing with himselfe of the resurrection hee prayed for the dead and sought to make reconciliation for their sinne that so they might haue their part in the resurrection of the godlie for whom very godly hee thought that there was great hope layed vp But if hee had remembred that hee had neither commandemēt example nor promise in Gods booke thus to encourage him to doe and that the Lord had saied You shall not doe euerie one that which seemeth good in his owne eies but that which I commaund thee that onely doe thou shalt adde nothing thereunto nor take ought there from Deut 12. he should not haue followed his owne discourse imagination thus to haue done without all warrāt from the word of the Lorde In many places of the olde testament he might haue remembred that of purpose the solemnity of burials are spokē of yet that neuer there is any mention either of any such thing cōmanded there to be done or remēbred to haue beene done yea that Tobias the elder though there be much saied of him to his commendation in burial of the dead in his history that yet there is not any mention of any such thing done by him And it is worth the noting that from the time of Iudas Machabeus it cānot be proued by any story after vntil now of very late daies that any such thing was by any godly man attempted againe Further yet how can this serue to breed any credit to popish praying or sacrificing for the dead in purgatory seeing the papists thēselues confesse that there was no purgatory before the comming of Christ that they that die in deadly sinne as it appeareth by the story these did go not at all thither but streight to hell Lastly for any thing I can see in the authours words thorowly considered it may be saied for his credit that he sheweth that Iudas Machabeus did thus that he did very well honestly to thinke hope of the resurrection very godly to be perswaded that then it should be very well with those that died godly but that vpon these cogitations he did thus for these he doeth not at all iustifie him but rather shew that therein he followed his owne reason and discourse And this being thus all the strength of this place is lost For an historiographer may and doeth set downe often aswell the faults as commendable things of famous mē that they write of Wherefore to cōclude this point for all this it remaineth firme and sound that I saied before they can neither by scripture nor any sound ancient writer approue their sacrificing offering or praying for the reliefe of soules in purgatorie Wherefore to go on now we are come to examine Origēs testimonies which are two onely here cyted for prayer for the dead by Albine namely his 12 Homily vpon Ieremy and his 8. booke vpon the Romans cap. 11. in which places let them be read neuer so often there shal not be foūd so much as mētion of prayers for the dead indeede in both of them there is some mention of a purging fire but as I haue shewed before in the first entrance into this point when I repeated the words of the authour in these places none at all of the popish purgatorie For in the first he speaketh of that fire that must consume our hay woode and stubble which hee telleth vs is God who is a consuming fire of such things and in the other he speaketh expresly of the fire and torments of hell wherein saieth he he that would not be purged by the Euangelicall and Apostolique doctrine reserueth himselfe to be purified Thus thou maiest see good reader that which I admonished thee of before how they proue praying for the deade by mention of a purging fire though it be mentioned neuer so diuersly and farre from their sence as in these two places it is most euident it is whereby thou maiest see how with out all conscience they seeke to abuse thee with fond reasons and ambiguity of words Belike though the Scripture saie in hell there is no redemption yet Master Albine beleeues by his alleadging the later of these places Damascenes tale of Gregories getting Traians soule out of hell by praier and that Saint Frauncis and others also haue done and now can doe the like or at least that he and his fellowes haue beene fowely deceiued that before now made it a distinct place from hell In earnest let them take heede whom they haue perswaded hitherto doe hereafter that they go but thither and that they so they will take order they may be well paide for it will helpe them to ease there and out in the ende that they finde not indeede the popish purgatorie they dreamt of in the ende to proue nothing else but the fire
that which he should this marke is euident vpon them and not vpon vs. But if by the common knowen catholicke church of Christ that hee talketh of here and alwaies else he vnderstand as it is apparent that hee doeth their Roman church that now is most beggerly still hee beggeth that almes that neuer an honest and wise man in the world would giue him For in all these points here named by him that Synagogue a long time hath taught and doeth still so contrary to the true and chast spouse of Christ that though nether seditiously nor contentiously yet vehemently and earnestly it is the part of all skilfull painfull and faithfull ministers of the Lord to cry out against her and her so doing And thus onely haue we and doe we labour to manifest vnto the world their corruptiō in doctrine in these points least thereby to their perdition they should be seduced by them Otherwise whatsoeuer he saieth neither he nor all his faction shall euer he able to proue against vs that we either deny any thing or hold otherwise of any point here reckoned vp by him then we haue most sound and good warrant for both out of the scriptures and out of the ancientest and soundest monuments of antiquity But where as he saith that we flatly deny that Christ hath here vpon earth any spouse or visible church to bee heard speake perceaued or seene hee shamefully and vntruely reporteth y◠of vs. Onely cōcerning the visibility or not visibility of Christs church this wee holde and teach that who be the right members thereof whereof properly she doeth consist it is not discerneable by humane sence but knowen onely vnto God and vnto those to whom God giueth spirituall sences to discerne it withall but if otherwise by the church of Christ here vpon earth be vnderstoode generally all those that by outwarde profession seeme vnto men to be thereof then we hold and confesse that Christ hath alwaies had here vpō earth since the beginning and wil haue to the ende a visible spouse and church to be both heard speake perceiued seene though not alwaies alike nor of al sorts kinde of men as I haue shewed at large in the first and fourth chapters of my answere to Albine The onely thing that we deny is that it alwaies hath beene and euer must be so visible and apparent both for multitude and gouernment that euery one should be able therby not only to discerne it but frō time to time downe frō Christ to the ende of the world to name the principall persons by whose orderly succession one to another wtout interruption it hath bene cōtinued in one place or other Now hereupon to infer that wee simply deny it to be heard seene or perceiued argueth that they that doe so are growen so grosse that they can neither heare see nor perceiue that there is any difference betwixt the maner of being of a thing the simple being therof Iohn that neuer taught that the Church of Christ here vpō earth should neither be heard seen or perceiued yet teacheth Re. 12. that she would be driuē by persecution of the dragō into the wildernes where for a time in cōparison that she was before she should be hiddē Christ that hath taught vs that hel gates shal neuer preuaile against his church Mat. 16. yet foresheweth that towards his secōd cōming true faith should hardly be found vpō earth Luke 18. And doe we not read 2 Thessalonians 2. and 1. Timothy 4. to that end that before that day there shall be a great departing from the faith which by that which we read Reuelations 17 and 18. we may vnderstand shal be so great and so farre preuaile that the whore of Babylon there figuring vnto vs Antichrist and his kingdome shall haue vniuersality and all outward pompe that may be so on her side that shee shall make kings and people yea all nations drunke with the wine of her fornications During the fulfilling of which prophesies if it bee hard for some either to heare or see the Church or to vnderstand where shee is so that they cannot name the persons successiuely that she consisteth of no maruell For distance of time and place and ignorance or vnfaithfulnesse in Croniclers ioyned with a speciall care that Antichrist would alwaies by all likelyhoode haue to keepe from men all meanes to make thē to haue knowledge of these things least therby in the end he should fall into his cōsumption in respect of sundry former times and vs that liue now might make this impossible And yet he that should say so doeth not simply say as he here chargeth vs. But Gods name be blessed for it the Church yet was neuer so driuen into the wildernesse by the dragon or oppressed by Antichrist but as I haue shewed in my fourth Chapter of my foresaied answere to Albine some haue so heard seene and perceiued where she was and who were her true mēbers at al times that there was neuer time or state of the Church so bad but that we are able to nāe some of her frēds and where they liued or died in the profession of her trueth against antichristian abhominations As for the other points here reckoned vp by him gētle reader though he would make thee beleeue that they are such as in euery point as they teach thē now haue alwaies before beene taught of the true Catholicke church of Christ it is nothing so as in great part I haue shewed in answering of Albine as others thorowly vniuersally haue shewed of them all in seueral bookes writen against them for their Antichristiā doctrine therein Howbeit least by his words in the meane time whiles thou gettest leasure to peruse what we haue writen cōcerning these points thou shouldest cōceiue worse of our doctrine thē in any shew we deserue vnderstand that we preach against none of Christs sacraments neither doe we deny any sacrament of his in that sence to be a sacrament that he appointed it neither doe we deny Christs reall true most certain presence in the eucharist to the soule of the right receiuer onely a grosse presence of his body to the mouth of euery receauer fancied by thē cōtrary both to scripture the nature of a sacramēt of Christ himselfe is the presence that there we deny Indeed we as zealously as we can preach against their masse denying it to be any propitiatory sacrifice either for quicke or dead much lesse for both because we haue learned out of the epistle to the Hebrewes that only Christ is cōsecrate of his father as the fit Priest of the new testament in his owne person once for all to offer propitiatory sacrifice for the redemption of mankind that we learne by the words of the institution of this sacrament that it was neuer instituted to repeate that but with faith and thankesgiuing to make a commemoration thereof and rather to offer and deliuer Christ to vs thē
euer those that are sanctified Heb. 10. that he is able to saue perfectly those that come vnto God by him He. 7. that as there is but one God so there is but one mediatour betwixt God and man the man Christ Iesus 1. Tim. 2. and that S. Paul most confidently tolde the Galathians that if with that opinion that the false Apostles had taught them they would be circumcised Christ should profit them nothing at all they were falne from grace Gal. 5. And yet notwithstanding the most cleare and plaine euidence of these scriptures and sundry other places to the like effect so giuen is the church of Rome that now is and hath beene a long time to spoile Christ of a great part of this special honor glory that is due vnto him that it can abide nothing in the world worse then that men should he driuen by the schoolemaster the law out of themselues quite in Christ fully and freely soly and wholy by faith to seeke for their iustification here and saluation hereafter And therefore in it that in the deepe policy of Sathan to blunt the edge of the law that it haue not this force to breake and make contrite the heart of man with the ougly sight of his owne infinite sinnes and punishments due vnto him for the same to driue him to hunger and thirst after that effectuall iustification and saluation offered vnto men by the gospell in Christ they teach that man hath free-will to good that concupiscence or the first motions to sinne rising in man not consented vnto are no sinne that many sinnes euen for their owne littlenes are veâ—iall that by good deedes man may satisfied God for his misdeedes that man may fulfill the law yea that man may haue workes of supererogation more then hee needes for his owne saluation and that men by their workes maie merit a great part of their owne saluation yea haue merits both before iustification flowing from their pure natural faculties and powers to prouoke GOD to thinke it congruum that is meete and conuenient that euen therefore hee should bestow his grace vpon them and after merits de condigno that eueÌ„ for their very worthines deserue an euerlasting reward of blisse at Gods hand both for themselues and others And when they would seeme to be come vnto Christ and to beleeue in him yet in no case wil they trust to him alone and that that hee hath done and still doeth for them but then his sufferinges and their owne his merits and their owne and their frendes his sacrifice and their owne in their masse his mediation and the mediation of Saints and angels and an hundreth things els euen childish and rediculous for the matter of saluation must be trusted vnto That it is thus all the world seeth and they themselues in printed bookes stand vpon it that it must be thus and that we are heretiques because we will not let them alone in thus apparelling themselues their frends and their toies with the spoiles of our Christ and so their very glory is their shame A Christ that is so base minded in the office of iustifying and sauing of mens soules thus to be iumbled and ioined with so many partners and helpers is a Christ of their owne deuising such an one doubtles as we can heare no news of either in old or new testameÌ„t And therefore out of all question they shall finde that whiles they run a madding after this fansied new Christ of their owne the old true Christ will profit them nothing at all and that they are quite fallen from grace No man whose eies God hath opened aright either to vnderstand the law or the gospel but seeing and knowing these things to be true of them he must needs thinke and bee resolued that popery is euen that mystery of iniquity that Saint Paul speaketh of 2. Thess 2. and that the papists be flat those flase teachers that Saint Peter speaketh of 2. Epistle chap. 3. Which priuily should bring in damnable heresies euen denying the Lorde that hath bought them and so bring vpon themselues swift damnation whom yet many should follow and by whom the way of trueth should bee euill spoken of c. It is needfull therefore I would thinke especialy considering how earnest Saint Peter is there to perswade men to shun such for vs to leaue them and forsake them as we haue the thing which in this behalfe we haue especially to mourne for is that we forsooke them no sooner Howbeit though the better to countenance their Church and religion and to proue vs in thus forsaking of them to haue brought in such a schism as he talketh of he would make thee christian reader beleeue that all the world were at vnity with them in their faith and false bragge as if thou readest the fourth chapter of my answere to Albine and the 11. 37. thou shalt most plainely see It seemeth the man was very impudent or very childishly ignoraÌ„t of histories that would thus write For who of any learning or reading is ignorant that not onely the Greeke church and other Easterne Churches some hundreth yeares before the time that he speaketh of brake of communion with them but that also euen here in these Westerne parts in France Bohemia here in England and elswher long before this time Petrus Valdus Iohn Wickliffe Iohn Hus Hierom of Prage had so many followers and pertakers against them and their abhominations that for all the tyranny and most sauage persecutions that they haue vsed to roote them out by from time to time that yet notwithstanding they haue continued doe will stil in one place or other maugre all their malice euen to recompence that whore of Babylon as shee hath deserued at their hands As for the variety of opinions amongst vs that he vpbraydeth vs withall it is an obiection that Iohn de Albine often harped vpon therefore which in answering of him I haue sufficiently I hope answered Only this therfore to yâ— I further say here that though they be more and greater then we like of yet they are nether so great nor many as these our aduersaries by amplifying of this obiectioÌ„ by multiplying of names would seeme to make theÌ„ nor yet in such points but that notwithstanding we all agree in the fundamentall most principal points of christiaÌ„ religion whereby we hope it will thorow Gods goodnes come to passe that we shall shortly also grow to vnity in the rest In the meane time sure I am that they whom by any reason he may say be of vs for our holding felowship and coÌ„munion togither in our confession of the christian faith are all amongst our selues at farre more vnity then such as he liketh of at far better vnity then they be or euer haue beene since they departed froÌ„ vs. As for the Anabaptists diuers others whom sometime they charge vs in this case also withall they know wel enough we
to be christians and of him onely and of his vndoubted spirit speaking vnto vs in the canonicall scriptures haue we learned our religion with which as far as we finde any man to agree we reuerence him as it becommeth vs in the Lord further we take not our selues bound to follow any man whatsoeuer he be That Puritans and Precisians haue brought the ancient Protestants of this land of all sortes to any such point by any such meanes as he speaketh of he speaketh both vntruely and slanderously For such as for their preposterous zeale and factious turbulent spirits amongst vs deserue so to be called and accounted neither are for number so many nor for credit so affected of the common people nor wincked at of the magestrats as he pretendeth But if ther were as many fond sectaries that haue arisen vp amongst vs these late yeares as this man and other of his fellowes sometime would haue men to beleeue as long yet as we for all that continue constant not onely in the very same religion that we were of when we first broke of from them but also in that which hath plentifull and most playne warrant both from the canonicall scriptures and al sound antiquity as we haue a thousand times shewed and yet still are willing and ready alwaies to doe why should they thus odiously be obiected against vs to disgrace either vs or our religion especially seeing wee are sory for it and shew our mislike thereof as wee doe May any man iustly disgrace the Apostles and the Apostolique churches for that euen in their times there arose so many sectaries and heretiques amongst the Churches planted by them as both by their owne writings and other Ecclesiasticall histories it is notoriously knowen there did Hath not Christ euen of purpose to preuent all offence taking hereat compared his kingdome Matth. 13. to a field wherein the good seeds-man hauing sowen good wheat the enuious man so soweth his tares that they come vp togither with the wheat and so will doe vnto the haruest To let vaine words and brags go let thē proue but once any of them or all of them togither either that their religion is the plaine way of saluation beaten by our forefathers for these 1500. yeares past or that ours is not that very trueth that Christ and his Apostles taught as a perpetual trueth for the true church constantly to hold to the worlds end and we will striue with them no lōger But as this is a matter too hard heauy for them so they are content to let it alone and with fallacies vaine words to trie if they can beguile the simple people and bring them to a misliking of that which to mislike indeede they are not able to giue them one sound reason And therefore to conclude that both beginning ending and alwaies this mā may be like himselfe he taketh it for graunted that their religion is the sound catholique faith that the martyr Sebastian meant by his loafe which broken and broken againe after it was once well made and baked by sectaries heretiques as he told Genserichus the tyrant would neuer become better and that ours is but a breaking of it to make it better againe which will neuer be Whereas we constantly hold affirme that we may iustly say to all papists euen as Sebastian saied to that tyrant For the loafe that we feed on and would haue all others to feed on with vs we are able to proue is that the graine whereof Christ himselfe by his faithfull seruants hath sowen in the sound field of the canonical scriptures which he himselfe hath ground kneaden baked for vs and for all his children And likewise we are able to proue that this fine white loafe of the Lords own preparing alwaies lying ready in the storehouse of his writen word the Romish church hath a long time doth stil as much loath as euer the children of Israel did Manna And therefore as they preferred in their conceits garlicke leekes onions the flesh-pots of Egypt before that heauēly food so hath she and doeth she a massiue loafe the corne whereof must not come onely out of the foresaied field of the Lord for then it would haue no fauour with them but in great part out of the rotten field of mens traditions inuentions before the pure white loafe of the lords own making Wherefore to conclude all his speech or exhortation groūded vpon this story out of Victor de persecutione Vandalorum any man may see we might farre more iustly vse against thēselues of the Romish Church to persuade them as they regard their owne saluation c. to content themselues with vs with this Sebastians loafe of the first and best making I haue thus thou seest good reader but briefly past ouer these things and the rather I haue so done first because I found no matter in them but grounded vpon shameles begging of that which is most in question and secondly because in my answere to Albine I had vpon occasion giuen me by him already answered al or most of his assumptions against vs in the applying of these signes vnto vs. But lastly by view of an answere made at large by master Crowley both to the 22. demaunds and these six signes also that came to my hands since my finishing of this answere of mine I see if it had beene vndone I might well haue spared al my labour herein If therefore thou desirest any further answer concerning any of these I refer thee to him And thus I take my leaue of thee beseeching the Lord now and euer to blesse both thee and me and heartily praying thee to remember me alwaies in thy godly prayers to God to whom be all glory praise and dominion now and euer Thine in the Lord Thomas Sparke A Table whereby readily to finde out the principal matters contained in the former answere to Albine or any of his fauourers wherein because vntill thou commest to the answere to Albine himselfe the pages are not figured in the top as in the rest for any thing before handled the page of the letter in the bottome of those leaues whereof there are 16 for euery letter is noted for thy direction A. Abbeyes why and how suppressed pa. 287. Albine conuicted of blasphemy p. 95. 96. 186. 375. 378. Albine sheweth himselfe to haue beene of a profane spirit 269. Albines publishers methode in his epistle to the reader discouered b. p. 11. 12. 13. Albines owne methode and the folly thereof laied open E. 4 5. 6 Albines cunning in running from the question 6 7 9. 10. 11. c. Albine notorious in abusing scriptures 2. 3. 36. 37. Albine worthy to be famous for abusing of fathers 47. 51. 85. 86. 119. c. 126. c. 131 134 156. ca p. 37. through out Antiquity protestants rather haue then papists and true antiquity protestants stand vnto 102. 158. c. Auricular confession dangerous E. p.
must needes be graunted you that your church is aswell the church of Christ as that that was in their times you make our fault and theirs one because we contrary yours which is the church falsely so named whereas they in theirs coÌ„traried the churches doctrine truely so tearmed You must proue therefore your Church now and that which was 1000. yeares ago at least to be al one in doctrine which you can neuer doe before you can proue their fault and ours to be all one Howsoeuer this vse yet you will make of the variety of opinions and the alleadging of the Scriptures by these heretiques that you wil not remooue from your Religion or faith which falsely you call ancient for all the shrill noise of our Gospell Whereunto this onely I reply that if now the diuersity betwixt their dealing and ours herein shewed you as it is you that notwithstanding persist in this minde vpon this ground you therein shall shew your selues to bee ledde rather by will then witte or any sound wisedome But at last you giue ouer wandring any longer so farre abroad for examples to this purpose and you will talke you say but of the sectes and heads of heresies of this present time who all likewise alleadge scripture and condemne one another And therefore hauing reckoned vp Lutherans Anabaptistes Puritanes Protestantes Precisians Zwinglians Caluinistes Caelestes Deistes Triniâ—â—ries you would knowe of vs which of these you should receiue And to make your question the harder to answere you adde saying If we receiue some and not all they that are refused will thinke they haue wrong offered theÌ„ For they haue as good store of scripture well alleadged as the rest and if all should for this cause be receiued then thereupon would followe a Babylonicall confusion This obiection taken froÌ„ the variety of sects and opinions in these daies I haue so answered in answering to your fourth chapter that thereby I haue made it most cleare that though you had as great ground for it as you pretend yet all that variety neither can nor ought to preiudice any thing our Religion And therefore vnto that answere of mine hereunto I must referre the reader both now and hereafter whensoeuer it commeth for his satisfaction yet this here I would haue him further to note that to make the number seeme the greater you haue here reckoned vp them as different Sectes heades of heresies amongst whom either there is full agreement as betwixt them whom you call Caluinists and Zwinglians or but such difference as notwithstanding they agree in the substantiallest and fundamentall points of Religion as the Lutherans Caluinists the Protestants they whom you tearme Puritanes Which differences if they be sufficient with you to make different Sects seuerall heades of heresies then as many seuerall orders as there be amongst you of your religious men and women and as many seuerall sortes of schoolemen as you haue differing amongst themselues in questions of diuinitie so manie seuerall Sectes there are amongst you all which would rise to a marueilous long beadrole And indeede he that considereth well these thinges though hee shall finde you like Sampsons foxes tied togither by the tailes with the thong of the Popes supremacie yet otherwise hee shall and may most easily finde that you are farre more iustly to bee charged to nourish within your Synagogue of Rome multitudes of sects and heades of heresies then we both for that you exceede infinitly in number and matters and for that whereas some of ours to our griefe vnwillingly are tearmed by our enimies Lutherans Caluinists Zwinglians c. you delight and take pleasure in your distinct titles of diuision as to bee called Dominicans FraÌ„ciscans Iesuites c. Secondly there are some of these which you here name as Caelestes Deistes Trinitaries and the Sect of the family of loue wherewith elswhere some of you charge vs who are far liker you then vs and haue rather sprung vp amongst you and of you theÌ„ of vs. And this is certaine that all these our men haue beene more painefull to detect and confute them then euer were yours Our answere therefore to your demande hereupon builded is this though all these alleadge scripture yet neither alleadge they it aswell as we neither is there any remedy but that you must and ought to receaue them for the true meÌ„bers of the Catholique church howsoeuer others alleadge them that alleadge them best soundliest But then you will say you are as farre of as you were in the beginning seeing euery one will staÌ„d vpon this that he and his side alleadge them best and therefore once againe you will reply say that to determine who doeth best alleadge them is a thing so harde that fewe shall be able to finde it out and therefore in the ende you shall be driuen to thinke it necessary that the Pope should be iudge in this case otherwise men shall neuer be at a certainty whom to follow Hereunto I answere that the harder the matter is the more paines men ought to take thereabout seeing to know and finde the trueth standeth them so much vpon secondly I say with S. Paul that when you and all the world haue done what you can there must be heresies amongst meÌ„ that they which are approued amongst theÌ„ may be knowen 1. Cor. 11. Thirdly how hard soeuer it seeme yet by searching of the scriptures examining the allegations interpretatioÌ„s of them by the rules of right interpreting which I before set downe in humility of spirit God will leade theÌ„ that be his how simple soeuer at one time or other by the direction of his spirit to finde out who they be that soundliest haÌ„dle them For he hath promised If we seeke we shall finde and if we knocke it shal be opened vnto vs. Mat. 7.7 And as for the iudgement of the Pope or any one certaine maÌ„ or coÌ„pany of meÌ„ because the Lord in his wisedome foresawe what was in maÌ„ so how prone to erre in this case he hath not appointed vs any such to run vnto for the determining of this matter And therfore it is intollerable presumption for any such to take vpon theÌ„ that the Lord hath made theÌ„ such iudges in this case that they cannot erre The ministry of men conference with men reading of meÌ„s labours vpon matters of Religion such other good helps with an earnest and huÌ„ble inuocation of the name of God for the directioÌ„ of his spirit are to be vsed carefully of euery man as he may in this case But wheÌ„ all commeth to all we see no other but that it is the will pleasure of our God rather to leaue vs thus to be exercised in scearching the scriptures in trauelling by these meanes to finde out the truth to settle our selues therein theÌ„ to send vs for full resolutioÌ„ to any one man or meÌ„ least so we should after be deceiued through the errour