an eye to the peoples manners and how they stand affected When the Lord Cromwell had set forth the Primmer or Psalter without the Letany all the Popishly affected which were not a few could not be quiet till they had cried up the Letany again into its old place So as in sine through the love of superstition in the people and the love of the world in the Prelats alias the Reformers many of whom afterwards God reformed and purged in the flames of Martyrdome such a Reformation was set up as for Church-government and Discipline onely translating the Popes headship and setting it upon the Kings shoulders was the very same with that which was in Henry 8. his dayes and is at this day in Rome and did so well sute with the Civill Government and manners of the people that a Generall Law was enacted for the ratifying of that Prelaticall Government and Discipline which hath bred such manners in the people generally to this day as if another Reformation shall be set up wherein the peoples manners shall be no lesse looked upon then in the former as you here doe more then seeme to plead for I can conjecture if not certainly divine what a Reformation both for Church-Government and Discipline your Church of England is like to have For if you aske the Prelaticall party consisting of multitudes of their Priests and of their ignorant and prophane people together with all the Kings Army they will all with one voyce and vote roare it out at the Canons mouth W will have the Bishops Church-government and Discipline continued without alteration If ye aske the ordinary Protestant professors at large they cry No no not that but we will have such a Church-government as under which we may injoy no lesse libertie for our manners then we had under the Prelates But you referre us to the serious debate of a Nationall Counsell Synod Parliament But yet give us leave to put a vast difference between all these and the Scripture Christs owne voyce If they truely informe us of the minde of Christ in the Scripture we will blesse God for it but yet if we can find out the mind of Christ by his immediate voyce we dare not suspend our beliefe and practise of it until we have it at the second hand from men And should we waite never so long upon the issae of their debate commended unto us to be such as men conceive to be agreeable and consâ—nant to Gods Word yet for as much as we dare not * pinne our soules upon mens sleeves as not knowing as one said whither they might possibly carry them therefore we must examine all mens determinations in matters of Religion by * searching the Scriptures and laying every thing to this line and rule For the Bereans are commended as the more noble in that they examined diligently and daily even the Apostles doctrine by the Scriptures and much more are wee to try the spirits of men that are not Apostles and so not immediately inspired by the Holy Ghost with infallibility of truth as never any Generall Councell after the Apostles hath been So as you know how miserably and shamefully Generall Councels have erred The first Councell of Nice consisting of 318. Bishops how did they all agree to bring in a Doctrine of Devills prohibiting Priests marriage had not one Confessor Paphnutius by evidence of Scripture and reason cryed it downe and so swayed the whole Councell And you know very well that Generall Councels as well as Nationall have not infallibilitie of judgement in all things And it cannot be unknowne to you that even this Assembly of Divines are of different judgements about Church-governement and Discipline nor have they perhaps had so much time since their being under the Prelacy as to be throughly informed of the way of Churches commonly called Independent but that many of them may possibly gaine much more knowledge of it by spending some more time and study in it But Sir besides all this you seeme to lead them such a way should they follow you as would necessarily bring them into an inevitable and inextricable errour in case they should elect such a publick Church-government Rites Discipline as they conceive to be most consonant to Gods Word to the Lawes Government under which we live and manner of the people For if they looke upon the manner of the people which they must needs finde to bee for the most part very loose to speake nothing of Ignorants and Popish Malignants some men might conceive that such a Church-government and Discipline were most sutable as doth most comply with and give some indulgence to such manners as cannot easily be brought to enter in at the straite gate and narrow way that leads into Christs kingdome And whatsoever Church-government and Discipline comes not full home in all things to the word of God is not that which is consonant thereunto and so not pleasing unto God and the more consonant it is to Gods Word the more strict and holy it will be found to be and so the lesse consonant to the common prophane manners of this Nation at this day Worthy of our observation is that of the Lord to the Prophet Jeremy Jere. 15. 19. If thou take forth the pretions from the vile thou shalt be as my mouth let them returne unto thee but returne not thou unto them Whereupon the most learned Interpreter as the learned Beza constantly styles him Calvin among many other excellent observations on this place thus concludeth Summa est veritatem Dei non debere flecti ad hominum arbitrium quae Deus non mutatur ita nec verbum ejus ullam varietatem admittit The summe is That the truth of God ought not to bee bended according to mans will or conceit because God is not mutable so neither doth his Word admit of any change Now the forme of Church-governement and Discipline laid downe in the New Testament is a Doctrine of Christ and no more alterable according to the varieties of mens customes and manners in all nations and ages then the Gospel it selfe is which the Apostle would not have to bee altered into another Gospel though another Gospel cannot bee as neither another kingdome of Christ another Church-governement another Church-discipline ought not to be but that alone which we find in Gods Word which must not bee reduced or conformed as a nose of waxe to which the Papists as Hosius and Pighius doe compare the Scripture to the fashions of worldly governments Rom. 12. 2. and popular manners but these must be conformed to the Scripture Hence it may appeare how rough your conclusion of this Question is if to such a generall law as you propose all particular Churches members of this Kingdome and Nation should not yeeld to be actually obliged in point of conscience and Christianitie and readily to submit thereunto and no waies to seeke an exemption from it under paine of being guiltie
of arrogancy schisme câ—ntumacy and lyable to such penalties as are due to these offences Good Brother be not so legall What if that resolution of an Assembly and that Generall Law for the confirmation of it be such as the conscience of godly people cannot without sinne submit thereunto Must they either violate their consciences or bee undone by your unavodable intolerable penalties as both to suffer in their good names for Arrogant contumatious Schismatickâ— yea and in their Consciences too under the guilt of these and to bee liable to I wot not what penalties besides and no waies to seeke an exemption from it Why good Brother if we should goe and live under the Turkish Government and could not in conscience turne Turkes in the Religion there by Law established yet there is a way to seeke an Exemption from it namely by becomming Tributary to that State as many Christians doe Good Brother let 's not have any of Dracoes Lawes executed upon Innocents And remember how not long agoe the Prelates served us we could not have the benefit of Law of Appeale no exemption from bloud letting and eare-cropping and pillorying c. And shall wee now turne worse persecutors of the Saints then the Prelates were Non ignara mali miseris succurrere disco saith that heathen Princesse But in the margent you put some places of Scripture to prove this But truly when I well view the places I find them not to answer to what you would seeme to prove by the Quotation The first is 1 Cor. 14. 32 33. For the Spirit of the Prophets is subiect to the Prophets And what of this Ergo the Spirit of all the Prophets in England must be subiect to the Prophets in the Assembly upon paine of being guiltie of Arrogancy Schisme Contumacy and liable to such penalties as are due to these offences O brother Prynne you must as well note as quote the place But let me note it for you The Apostle there speaks both to and of the Church of Corinth when assembled together in one place that the Prophets should observe order and give place each to other in Prophecying as the reason is rendered and not of any such Assembly of that sublime and supreame Authoritie or the onely Prophets to whom all other Prophets wheresoever dispersed must be subject Ver. 33. For God is not the Author of confusion but of peace as in all Churches of the Saints Which place also is no lesse wide from your purpose What Will there be no peace but all confusion unlesse all be subject to the Assembly upon such paine as before The Apostle speaks here of the Order to be observed in every Church as in all the Churches of the Saints The other places quoted by you are no lesse misapplyed Will they prove trow you blind obedience But come on brother if you will needs put us upon such hard exigents as to give us no quarter without present laying down our Armes and cause and so captivating our consciences to the Dictates and Decrees of men If you will make no covenant with us but upon this one onely condition that you might thrust out all our right eyes and if there bee no other remedy yet give us leave to capitulate with you about some terms of accomodation that wee may not altogether betray our consciences and liberties which our Redeemer Christ hath so dearly purchased for us And the first and main is this First brother make it cleare unto us that an Assembly of men learned pious what you will living in ages succeeding the Apostles have or ever had infallibility of judgement so as to say as Acts 15. 28. It pleased the holy Ghost and Us to make these Decrees that so wee may without further scruple of conscience submit and conforme thereunto But I say you must give us very good assurance and evidence hereof that they are infallibly guided by the holy Ghost that when they shall say It pleased the holy Ghost and Us we may safely believe them For when you can resolve us of their conclusions no further then as they conceive to bee consonant to the word of God Alas Sir you leave us in a Wood or Maze whence no extricating of our selves without Ariadnes thread Gods word to set us where wee were before For you knew what variety of conceits many men have Quot capita tot sententiae This is the first and main condition we stand upon and truly it were sufficient alone We might in a second rank but not equall to the former name a selfe-deniall and humble spirit c. You know the story of the Monkes of Bangor comming before Austin the first Archbishop of Canterbury whom they seeing to fit in his Pontificall Chaire and not rising up nor moving unto them they left him as a man noâ— sent of God And so if wee should behold men carrying themselves loftily over their brethren who are not of their Counsell we should be apt to suspect that Christs Spirit is not there because there is not the spirit of humility neither the Spirit of truth to be found A Cardinall in the Conclave at Viterbium after almost three yeares agitation about the election of a new Pope as many yeares as we have been about to set up a Reformation and the foundation not yet laid each Cardinall ambitiously a spiring to be the Pope one of them rose up and said Domine c. let us uncover the roose of this Chamber seeing the holy Ghost cannot get in unto us through so many tiles But this by the way And so enough of this question The third and fourth Questions I come now to your third and fourth question But lest my answers may prove too voluminous and so fastidious to everyday-newes Readers I shall in the rest contract my selfe And this I must doe by trussiâ—g up your questions within the list of a Syllogisme respectively For as I noted before all your questions are rather conclusive then interrogatory rather positive resolutions then unresolved questions The summe therefore of your third and fourth questions for this dependeth on that is reduced into this Syllogisme That which hath sufficient if not best warrant for it in the New Testament the examples of the Primitive Church c. most prevents heresies schismes injustice is to be received as a true and undoubted Church-Government and to be preferred before that which hath no such expresse warrant in Scripture no patterne for it in the Primitive or best reformed Churches c. But the Presbyteriall forme of Church-government if rightly ordered hath sufficient if not best warrant for it in the New Testament c. The Independent not so Therefore the former is to be preferred and received before the latter without any long debate The Answer Both your Propositions are lame and interfeere one against the other Sufficient if not best warrant will not prove so sufficient a warrant as if there be found a better
ordaining supplying instituting new Rites Orders Canons for the Churches peace and welfare I answer to the Proposition 1. That the Apostles themselves had no other libertie to doe any thing about the calling planting ordering and regulating of Churches but what they had immediarely given them by Christ and his Spirit 2. This liberty so given them reached no further then to those things onely which were given them in charge and which they accordingly as faithfull Stewards did practise concerning the Churches Even as Christ himselfe being the Son of God and set over his house was faithfull in all things doing nothing but what he had by speciall Commission and Command from the Father So as if the Son himselfe God blessed for ever took not the liberty to himself to doe what himselfe pleased as Mediator though as the Sonne he thought it no robbery to be equall with God the Father but did every thing as he had received commandment from him how much lesse have the servants of God any liberty to doe what pleaseth them but that and those things alone which they have in command from their Master If therefore they who prosesse to succeed the Apostles in their severall generations will challenge the same liberty which the Apostles had and used about the Churches of God they must first of all shew us their immediate Commission from Christ as the Apostles had Secondly They must all shew us that what they doe in Church-matters under colour and pretence of Apostolicall liberty is none other but what they have by expresse command from Christ by his Spirit And thirdly because they are not able to shew this they must use their liberty no further then the lists and limits of Scripture doe permit which holds forth an exact and perfect rule for all precisely to observe without the least variation As knowing that severe law of God often used in Scripture and wherewith as with a bounder-stone the whole Book of God is closed up and that with a solemne protestation of Christ himselfe If any man shall adde unto these things God shall adde unto him the plagues that are written in this book And if any man shall diminish ought thereof God shall take away his part out of the book of life and out of the Holy Citie But some will haply object This is meant not in point of Church-government Discipline Rites Ceremonies as left to mans liberty to ordaine adde supply institute according to the diversity of the lawes and customes of every Nation but in matter of Doctrine Story and Prophecy To which I answer though sufficiently noted before and now in one word if God were so exact about the forme of the Tabernacle a type of Christs Church under the Gospell to have all things observed according to the Patterne even unto the least pin what reason can any reasonable man give why Christ the same Law-giver and patterne it selfe should be lesse carefull over his Church in the New Testament so as to leave it at six and seven to the liberty of all Kingdomes and Nations of the world to set up in the Church what Government Discipline Rites Ceremonies Canons they pleased upon what pretence soever as for the Churches peace and welfare Hath not the opening of this one sluce let in such an Inundation of all manner of humane inventions in this kind as hath wel-nigh drowned the whole world in all manner of superstition and errour Therefore my deare brother Prinne assure your selfe not all the wits not all the learning in the world will be able to assert this your assertion but that it must of necessity fall to around with its owne weight and there brother let it lie or father die and bury it there whence it came All that Christ appointed is exactly to be followed though Christ was not so â—â—act in circumstantials under the Gospell because 1. That was a typicall and figurative worship 2. Christ now looks more to substantialls Joh. 4. 24. wherein he is more strict 1 Cor. 5. And where you say that as in the Apostles times Christians multiplied so also their Churches Church-Officers and their Church-Government Discipline varied Consider that here was no variation of the Rule but by degrees the rule of Church-government and Discipline was perfected not varied The Temple was seven yeares in building first hewing squaring then erecting stone after stone timber after timber each in his proper place here was no variation of the frame and forme of the Temple all this while but the worke went up day by day till it came to perfection according to the patterne in writing given to David by the Spirit Even so while the spirituall Temple is framing the daily goings up of it by order after order and rule after rule is no variation but a graduall tending to perfection till all be finished as we now see the whole frame of Church-government for all true Evangelicall Churches so compleated in the New Testament as nothing under the paine aforesaid may either be diminished or added to it And the same Orders are prescribed to all the Churches So ordaine I in all Churches saith the Apostle 1 Cor. 7. 17. So for the collection for the Saints and for the first day of the weeke for publick meetings as before the same order he gives to the Church of Corinth which he doth for the Churches of Galatia 1 Cor. 16. 1 2. So Officers chosen and ordayned in every Church Act. 14. 23. Tit. 1. 5. 7. So as if one Church for the smalnesse of it have fewer Officers and another Church for the largenesse of it more in number as the Church in Jerusalem had need of seven Deacons both for the magnitude of the Congregation and the multitude of the poore therein Act. 6. yet this makes no variation in the forme of Church-government as differing one from another either for substance or circumstance saving onely socundum magis minus as a little man is a man as well as the tallest man In a word those Arguments which you by way of derision set downe in your owne forme of words with their Ergoes for as much as they are of your own devising I therefore leave them with you to consider better of them Onely one I cannot passe by without wrong to Christ to his word to his Spirit to his Apostles Every man say you in his Infancy is borne destitute of Religion of the use of speech reason understanding faith legs c. Ergo He ought to continue so when he is growne a man Yet this is the maine Argument of some Independents say you O brother Of what Independents As whence this Argument Because they hold that in nothing they ought to swerve from the exact Rule Gods Word for the government of Churches And doe you compare the Scripture as it was in the Apostles time to a child in his Innocency destitute c So as if we will not transgresse the bounds of Scripture for
without opposition and why not you and alâ— others So you O Brother I stand amazed But I go on Then againe the Scripture as it sets downe the qualifications of the members of this body so the forming of them in the body in the parts thereof more principall and lesse superiour and inferiour for order and well-being As Pastors and Teachers Teaching and Ruling Elders Helpes Governments Bishops and Deacons or by what other means soever they are diversified in Scripture And this is one uniforme forme of Government which Christ hath fixed in his Churches without any difference at all but secundumâ—magis minus as before as lesser Churches have fewer Officers greater moe So as brother if the old Wine be better old Presbyâ—erie old unlordly Episcâ—pâ—cy surel the Independents do justly challenge it Which had you once truly tasted of you would never have desired to drink other The Lord remove that aguish humor * Vexatus fâ—bre recusâ—t â—ptima Your second Interrogatory is about the lawfull poweâ— of Civill Magistrates in all matters of Church-government wherein you tax some Independents for extraordinary eclipsing the same Some what some may say is one thing must therfore the Independent Church-government say it too You alledge for this a passage in the Answer of two of the brethren to A. S. for wch one of them is lately questioned but I hope he wil clear himself But the weight of this whole Interrogatory lies in your Marginall note where you peremptorily conclude That the chief Government and ordering of the Church and power of making Ecclesiasticall Lawes or Canons to bind it before the Law belonged to the Patriarks and others was not as they were Priests but Rulers and Fathers of their Families under the Law say you it belonged to Moses to the Kings of Iudah Israel and the morall Assemblies or Congregations of the Princes Nobles chiefe Captains Heads and Elders of the people Therefore under the Gospel by like reason and equity and because it is a part of Christs kingly not Priestly or Propheticall Office it must needs belong to Christian Princes Magistrates Parliaments to whom Christ hath delegated his kingly Office not to Ministers to whom he hath given onely his Propheticall or Priestly Authoritie not the Royall as the Scriptures at large relate nor yet to particular Congregations who are not Magistrates nor higher Powers invested with Christs royall Authoritie So you where you tell us many strange things but prove nothing But brother in such a weighty Argument as this your {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} will not serve the turne yea you here overthrow those Principles forementioned That Christ is the onely King so the onely Priest the onely Prophet of his Church which his three offices are incommunicable to any creature as they are proper and peculiar onely to him He is the onely King c. Now to be solus {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} The onely Potentate the King of Kings and Lord of Lords this is Christs Regall prerogative which is in communicable to any or to all the powers on earth It is no lesse incommunicable then his omnipotencie his omniscience his omnipresence and the rest of his incommunicable Attributes no lesse then his Mediatorship Those Patriarchs and Princes of Israel before the Law and under the Law from Adam to Christ never had this power or prerogative to make Ecclesiasticall Lawes or binding Canons no nor yet Moses noâ— Kings of Iudah Israel and Generall Assemblies Princes Nobles chiefe Captaines and Elders of the people as you muster them up together in your marginall note A seeming goodly Army indeed but so many shadowes of men for any such power they had as you would with your penfull of ink paint cut unto us And first for those before the Law was given in Sinai had they this power you speak of Cain and Abel brought their Sacrifices What Was it a * will-worship of their own election If so God had regarded Abels sacrifice no more then Cains How then Their Sacrifice was of Gods own appointment Adam had it from God and his children from him For as God revealed to Adam Christ so those Sacrifices types of Christ Whence the learned Interpreter Calvin saith Tenendum est c. We are to hold that the manner of sacrificing was not unadvisedly devised by them but delivered to them from God For seeing the Apostle resâ—â—res the dignity of Abels sacrifice as attributed to faith it followes he offered it not without Gods commandement So as it could not have pleased God had it not been according to his commandement So Calvin Nor is all here expressed no doubt they had an Altar also whereon to offer for the sanctifying and accepting the offering which Altar was a type of Christ the true * Altar to whom Abels faith had respect Though we read not of Altar before Gen. 8. 28. We read also of difference of beasts clean unclean Gen. 7. By all which it is evident that God gave a law to Adam and his off-spring sutable to that in Mount Sinai for a rule of divine worship so also for Church-government And this further appeareth by the Law in Sinai afterwards where Moses is expresly charged to do all things both for worship and Church-government according to the patern shewed him in the Mount as before we noted And when the Temple was to be built God gave to David an exact patern of all things yea of every particular both in writing and by his Spirit not onely for worship but for the whole ministration about the Temple a type of Christs Church under the Gospell so as neither Moses nor Kings of Iudah had the least power to devise any other forme then that prescribed of God The keeping of the Passover once in the second month by Ezechiah was extraordinary upon a case of necessity And for the Kings of Israel will you equall them with the Kings of Judah Had they lawfull power as Jerobam to set up his two golden â—â—lvs and so to change the form of worship Church-government When that King Aâ—as set up his Damascen Altar was it by a Regall power invested in him from God So of other Kings of Juda good or bad they had no lawfull power at all to alter the form prescribed of God one jor And therefore brother you are wondred at that being a man of much reading and mightie parts you should utter such strange things ne quid dicam durius as these are and that so confidently when you neither doe nor ever can bring the least proofe yea or colour of what you affirm And therefore your inference upon such empty premises that therefore under the Gospel by like reason and equity it must needs belong to Christian Princes Magistrates Parliaments to whom Christ hath delegated his Kingly office c. is no consequence Whence I note two things 1. Like reason and
never so wicked But to your reasons First For else say you Paul and Barnabas being Apostles themselves might have decided that controversie at Antioch without sending to Ierusalem Answ. 1. By your favour brother Barnabas was not to speak properly an Apostle though an Apostolicall man 2. They argued with those Legalists at Antioch sufficiently to convince them but they comming from Judea and pretending the use of circumcision and Moses Law to be still in force in the Church at Jerusalem and the controversie being between two great parties the Christian Jews and Christian Gentiles hereupon the Church at Antioch thought it requisite for the fuller satisfaction to all parties to send Paul and Barnabas to the Apostles and Elders at Jerusalem And 3. because Paul and Barnabas are thus sent doth it follow that they were not sufficient yea Paul alone as an Apostle infallibly guided by the holy Ghost to have decided the question at Antioch As no doubt sufficiently they did though not so satisfactorily to all And 4. that they are thus by the Church at Antioch sent to the Apostles and Church at Jerusalem here is a good example for the use of communion of Churches as in doubtfull cases to consult one with another 2. Else say you the Church at Antioch would have sent to none to resolve their doubts but to the Apostles onely and not to the Elders I answer In that they sent to the Elders also it shewes the respect that one Church should have to another 2. Those Elders were men endowed with the gifts of the holy Ghost 3. Though they had not infallibility as the Apostles had yet their assent to the determination was a witnesse-bearing to the truth thereof 3. Else say you Paul and Barnabas would have put the question to the Apostles onely not to the Elders and Church as well as to them vers. 4 5 6. This is answered in the former 4. Else the Apostles would not have called all the Elders and brethren to consult v. 6. when themselves might have done it alone I answer 1. Though the Apostles might have done it alone yet they would not but called together the Elders and Brethren yea and the whole Church at Jerusalem vers. 4 22. hereby to give a precedent to all Presbyters or Elders of Churches that in cases of difference arising they call the whole Church together for assistance and counsell therein 2. In so doing the Apostles diminished nothing of that Judicial power and authority which Christ left with them for deciding of controversies being infallibly guided by the holy Ghost while they thought it not fit to doe such things in a corner which concerned the whole Church 5. Peter and Iames say you would not have argued the case so largely and proved it by Arguments and Scriptures as they did one after another but have peremptorily resolved it without dispute had they sate and determined it by their extraordinary infallible power I answer This followes no more then the former For the Arguments they used with the conclusion were by the direction of the holy Ghost And 2. The holy Ghost is not so peremptory but will have his truths examined by the Scriptures as Acts 17. 11. The Bereans are commended by the holy Ghost for examining Pauls Sermon by the Scripture though hee were an Apostle and spake by the holy Ghost And 3. the Churches assent was taken in for a witnesse ex abundanti 6. The finall resolution say you Letters and Canons of this Synod had run onely in the Apostles names had they proceeded onely by their Apostolicall infallible authority and not in the names of the Elders and brethren too I answer There is as little reason in this as in all the rest of your reasons for then by this reason sundry of Pauls Epistles which were all dictated by the holy Ghost did not proceed from that infallibility of Spirit alone wherewith the Apostle was guided because we find others not Apostles joyned with him As 1 Cor. 1. 1. Paul called to be an Apostle of Iesus Christ and Softhenes a brother to the Church of God c. And 2 Cor. 1. 1. Paul an Apostle of Iesus Christ and Timothy a brother to the Church c. And Gal. 1. 1. Paul an Apostle c. and all the brethren that are with me to the Churche of Galatia c. So Phil. 1. 1. Col. 1. 1. 1 Thess. 1. 1. Paul and Sylvanus and Timotheus to the Church c. In all which places though there was but one Apostle guided with infallibility of the holy Ghost to write the Scriptures yet many brethren are joyned in the salutation of the Churches and yet Paul as Apostle did write those Epistles and not simply as a brother or fellow-servant with them of Jesus Christ Neither are those brethren so named accounted the Pen-men of the Scripture as Paul of right is Thus you see brother there was no necessity that either the Apostles names should be put alone because they only were guided by the Spirits infallibility or that the names of the Elders and Brethren should not be put without a necessary conclusion deduced thence that the Decree there was therefore binding as being the Decree of a Synod and so exemplary for all Parliaments Councels Synods to make the like binding Decrees But good brother for all your punctuall quotations of that Scripture you doe not all this while tell us which is the main of all that which we find in the 28. verse of that chapter IT SEEMED GOOD TO THE HOLY GHOST AND VS TO LAY VPON YOU NO GREATER BVRTHEN THEN THESE NECESSARY THINGS Now brother we chalenge you to shew us any Parliament Councell Synod ever since the Apostles that could or can say thus IT SEEMED GOOD TO THE HOLY GHOST AND VS to determine controversies of religion to make and impose Canons to bind all men c. Shew this to us at this time and we will obey But if you cannot as you never can never let any man presse upon us that Scripture that Synod which hath no parallel in the whole world and so is no precedent pattern for any Councell Synod Parliaments Let me conclude with a passage of the learned and famous Chamierus that grand Antagonist of Bellarmins Bellarmine upon the same Scripture you alledge Act. 15. as also our late Prelates have usually done would deduce the same conclusion that you doe for humane authority in binding mens consciences To which Chamierus thus answereth that this consequence holds not Quia non eadem sit authoritas Apostolorum reliquorum Ecclesiae Pastorum Because there is not the same authoritie of the Apostles and of other Pastors of the Church For with those the Holy Ghost was extraordinarily present so as what they propounded did simply proceed of God But other Pastors have no such extraordinary assistance of the Spirit and therefore their Decrees are not to be paralleld with the Apostles Decrees Which is a speciall difference
much the more when they consider this is a time of Reformation and we have all taken a covenant each to go before other in reforming not only our selves but all others within our line according to the word of God And again the case between our Reformation at this time and that of the Jewes church is much alike For as th a was the Gospell-Reformation so is this as that was a gathering of such churches out of that of the Jewes as acknowledged Christ to be their onely King and Law-giver to govern consciences and churches by his Word when the rest of that church even the main body of it did reject Christ and renounce him for their King this being the very Title set over him on his crosse for which they crucified him So the preaching up of Christs Kingdome in these dayes is that which calleth and gathereth those unto Christ who acknowledge him alone for their King to govern them and this out of those that doe not or will not submit unto his Kingly government but depend upon the sole determination of men what kinde of church-governement they will set up in the Land which you tell us must be sutable to the lawes and customes of the Realme and manners of the people But there is yet one thing more for which you say you can see no ground and that is particular church-government Why brother why should the lawfulnesse of this be doubted whether explicit or implicit It is the churches wisedome and care yea conscience and duty too as we humbly conceive to admit of none but such as can give some account of the worke of grace wrought in them though but in the least degree yet in truth so far as we may discern them to be Saints for such onely are fit members of a church or body of Christ so as to partake of those holy Ordinances of Christ which none but visible Saints ought to partake of And who are fit to receive the Seales of the covenant but such as professe to be in covenant And surely if any shall refuse to make this profession of their being in covenant as being ashamed thereof with what conscience can the Church admit them into fellowship And you know this is a time of Reformation and we have long been under a yoke of Antichristian-government and of humane ordinances in the worship of God wherein we have all violated our vow and covenant made in our names in our Baptisme Now doth not reason require that we should renew our covenant in our own persons when we come to enter into the way of Reformation and that in as full a manner as possibly we can And when the people of God came out of Babylon to inhabit Ierusalem again they made a covenant among themselves when seeking the way with their faces thitherward they say Come and let us joyn ourselves to the Lord in a perpetuall covenant that shall not bee forgotten The case is ours in a great measure who are now inquiring the war to Sion with our faces thitherward and shall we be abashed to come to Sion from all the reliques of Babylon and not incite one another as they did to enter into a perpetuall covenant with the Lord Christ as our onely King not to be forgotten And the like wee read Ezra 10. 5. and Nehem. 9. 38. so did King Asa 2 Chron. 15. 12. Now if any require an example hereof in the New Testament I answer what needs it when wee have it in the Old What example have we in the New Testament for baptizing of Infants Yet having a commandement in the Old for circumcising the Infants of beleeving Abraham as being included in the same covenant with faithfull Abraham the intaile of this Covenant never yet out off but reaching to all Abrahams seed walking in the steps of Abrahams faith now under the Gospel infants of beleeving parents professing to be in covenant have the same right unto baptisme as being within the covenant which the infants of beleeving Abraham had unto circumcision in stead whereof baptisme by Gods institution succeeded and this by a strict charge and command from God Gen. 17. 13 14. which is as strong now for baptizing of Infants of beleeving parents as it was to the infants of beleeving Abraham for circumcision Again what example yea or precept is there of giving women the Lords Supper in the New Testament yet upon good consequence it is drawn from thence But this by the way And to conclude this point what reason can any man bring against this particular Church-covenant And if any doe disrelish it they are onely such as take a disgust of the way itselfe and then no marvell if every thing about it be quarrelled and questioned though no other reason can be given of it but a Nolumus such as the Jewes gave when they said of Christ Nolumus * We will not have this man to reigne over us Which speech was the more notorious as being delivered by an Embassage a solemne act of State of the Eldership and they his own Citizens though a little after vers. 27. he declares them his enemies and for this very thing that they would not hee should reigne over them commandeth them to be brought and slaine before him But this by the way though not unworthy of wise mens sad observation Object But it will be said wee have covenanted already in the Nationall Covenant Answ. This is against things upon supposition that we were convinced of the evill of them but not about our own persons as enquiring whether we indeed are willing to give up ourselves to the Lord Iesus 2. This was put in by such outward authority that many for feare tooke it which a Church-covenant under the Gospell where the people are to be such as come willingly will not beare for under the Law indeed there was another order but appointed by God that they might be forced to the covenant that they had received in their fathers but our fathers were over-awed and secondly no such order now The eighth Question This question though somewhat involved and perplexed with many branches yet the scope being to prove a Nationall Church and so a common Presbyterian Classicall government to which particular congregations persons ought to be subordinate and thereby an apparent subversion of the Novell Independent invention These are your words The whole I reduce into form thus Where there bee infallible proofes of Nationall Churches there of necessity must be a common Presbyterian Classicall government to which particular congregations persons ought to be subordinate to the apparent subversion of the NOVEL INDEPENDENT INVENTION But there be infallible proofes of Nationall Churches as the Catholick Church the Nationall Church of the Jewes the Synodall Assembly of the Apostles Acts 15. who made and sent binding decrees to the Churches seconded with all Oecumenicall Nationall Provinciall Councels Synods and the Church-government exercised throughout the world
in all Christian Realmes States from their first reception of the Gospell till this present compared with twelve places of Scripture at the least c. Therefore there must be of necessity a common Presbyterian Classicall government to which particular Congregations persons ought to be subordinate to the apparent subversion of the Novell Independent Inventions Now for answer to this large Argument brieflly And first to the Proposition I deny that you can bring any infallible proofes or one proof that there either are or ever have been any Nationall Churches by any other institution but meerly humane nor any one of divine institution but onely that of the Jewes in the old Testament and now wholly dissolved of which we have spoken sufficiently before And which also was not onely Nationall but in a manner Oecumenick and universall as appeares Acts 2. and such therefore as I hope you contend not for now for then there would be a Pope as there was an high Priest then c. And brother you must give us leave to stand upon this as for our lives that we dare not admit of any Churches as the true and genuine Churches of Christ which are not of his owne institution that is such as are not called and gathered by the voyce of Christ in his word and by that Scepter of his swayed and by that alone Law of his governed And therefore be intreated good brother not to presse upon us such your Churches whose not onely institution in their severall divisions but government also in their combinations is meerly humane and therefore as a house founded on a sand which against a storme cannot stand You must first be able to found your Nationall Church in the Scripture or assure yourselfe if a man will build upon it a common Presbyteriall Classicall government and dwell there he will bring an old house upon his head when God shall begin to storm it But to come to your perticular instances in the Assumption for the proofe of your Nationall Church The first is the Catholicke Church throughout the world What is this to a Nationall Church Though the Catholick include all the true Churches throughout the world yet doth it not therefore conclude any Church to be Nationall The second instance is the Nationall Church of the Jewes and from hence you can conclude as little for your Nationall Churches as before we have shewed For bring us any one Nationall that is one intire Church or congregation as that of the Jewes was or that is of one family as that was or that is a type of Christs spirituall Kingdome as that was or that is the universall Church of God visible on earth as that was or that is governed by the like lawes that that was when your selfe doe confesse that the government of your Nationall Churches is to be regulated by humane Lawes Customes Manners and not by Gods word alone whereas that of the Jewes was wholly governed by Gods own Law and not at all by the Lawes of men untill it came to be corrupted contrary to the expresse Law of God And you confesse also that the government of your Nationall Churches is alterable according to the Lawes Customes Manners of severall Nations whereas the government of the Church of the Iewes was unalterable till Christ himselfe did put a period to that Oeconomy In a word your Nationall Churches are a mixed multitude consisting for the greatest part of prophane persons being as a confused luâ—p whereof there are nine parts of leaven to one of pure flowre so as the whole is miserably soured and the flowre made altogether unsavoury But that of the Iewes in its naturall and externall constitution was all holy an holy Nation a Royall Priesthood a peculiar People all the congregation holy every one of them So as in no one particular doe your Nationall Churches hold parallell with that of the Iewes no not in the least resemblance Your third instance is the Synodall Assembly of the Apostles Elders and Brethren at Ierusalem Acts 15. who made and sent Binding Decrees to the Churches And what of this brother Therefore Nationall Churches or generall Councels or Provinciall have the like power to make and impose binding Decrees and send them to the Churches Why first of all that Assembly was not any Nationall Church representative Secondly neither was it a Generall or Provinciall Councell Thirdly being an Assembly of the Apostles with the Elders and Brethren it could not erre for the Apostles had infallibility of judgement being guided by the holy Ghost infallibly and the Elders and Brethren did assent to their determinations And was there ever such a Synodicall Assembly since that Had euer any Councell besides that infallibility of judgement Shew it brother and then wee will beleeve they may make Binding Decrees and wee will submit unto them Nay dare any Assembly of men on earth say It seemed good to the holy Ghost and Us That 's enough for the black mouth of blasphemy the Roman lying Oracle But in your second thoughts you traverse this * place more largely which wee shall consider when we come to it In the mean time what I have here and before said may suffice to stay the Readers stomace But you adde All this is seconded with all Occumenicall Nationall Provinciall Councels Synods and the Church-government throughout the world in all Christian Realmes States c. Alas brother all these put together are in no sort sutable to make a second to that Apostolicall Assembly they cannot hold the least proportion with it to make a second to that unsampled sample though they make never so great a summe And whereas you make the up-shot of this your question to the apparent sub version of Novell Independent Invention these be your words we have proved it to be neither mans Invention but Gods own institution nor Novell as having its foundation in the New Testament nor yet Independent otherwise then that it depends not upon any humane authority or jurisdiction out of it self not upon any such conformity to humane lawes or customes or manners of every Nation or people as you speake of Neither doe you take away our Argument from the most usuall phrase of the Apostles calling the Churches in the plurall by saying Historians often speake of the Churches in England for they doe not so speak when they mean the congregations but the material Temples but speake of England as one Church when they understand the people and there hath not been shewen any dependence of those Churches as the dependency of the English Churches is knowne The ninth Question Thus reduced in summe That liberty which the Apostles had and used in ordaining supplying instituting new Rites Orders Canons c. for the Churches peace and welfare they transmitted to posteritie But the Apostles had and used such liberty c. Therefore the same liberty have all Churches in the world in all ages succeeding the Apostles in