the world condemned and burned to ashes bee an eternall witnesse Yea let their owne decree made in the saied Councell whiche was That no faithe nor promise is to bee kepte to any heretike nor that any manne by any promise standeth bound to an heretike for so thei call all those that dare speake against them bee a perpetuall testimonie of the same Thei saie wee are heretikes wee dooe deny it if our naie maie not defende vs why should their yea coÌ„demne vs Thei saie because thei bee the churche but wee deny the same shall here their yea secue for theÌ„ as it did before against vs and our naie neither touch theÌ„ nor helpe vs In some countreis if the partie accused pleade not guiltie and saie naie to the crime obiected if he by diuers tormentes enforced to confesse doo still maintaine his naie and passe through the appoincted tormentes constanly mainteinyng his naie he is discharged and let goe But it caÌ„ not healp vs accused as heretikes to denie the false accusation to mainteine our deniall in all tormentes and moste cruell deathes neither to bring good testimonie of our innocencie out of Gods woorde all these can helpe vs nothyng against their onelie bare saiyng that we bee heretikes for that is all their proofe In what case are we then How easily maie thei then bothe defende themselues coÌ„demne vs and maintaine what thei list be it right or wrong truthe or falshoode beyng accusers witnesses examiners and iudges theÌ„selues in the causes wherein thei bée parties and parties accused also Wherefore what can we dooe els but as did Christ our sauiour and his holie Apostles against the high Priestes against the Phariseis and Scribes appeale to God not absent not dumbe as M. Dorman deuiseth and saiyng nothyng at all for vs as he would haue it seme but to God yea and to our Sauiour Christe his soonne speakyng his minde moste largelie and plainly in the scriptures and beyng no partie but moste indifferent iudge betwéene them and vs. For if the controuersie be about true Religion and scruice of God what better triall can there be then Goddes woorde God hymself commaundyng vs that in his seruice we shall dooe that whiche he coÌ„maundeth vs that wee shall neither adde thereto nor take any thyng therefrom What better Iudge can there be in this worlde betwene vs then Gods woorde whiche as our sauiour Christ saieth shall iudge vs in the worlde to come If the controuersie bee aboute the true churche what better iudge can there bee then the Scripture writen by the Prophetes and the Apostles seyng it is testified to vs by the spirite of GOD moste plainelie that the true churche is builded and staied vpon the foundation of the Prophetes of the Apostles And though this dooe not like M. Dorman and suche as he is yet you shall heare that it did not misâ—â—ke the old and holie fathers of the auncient and true churche that suche controuersies should bee so quietted by the scriptures Sainct Augustine coÌ„tendyng against those who doo attribute Gods grace and giftes to the woorthinesse of mennes merites coÌ„cludeth thus Cedamus consentiamus autoritati scripturae sancte quae nescit falli nec fallere That is to say Let vs geue place and aagrée to th'autoritie of the holy scripture whiche caÌ„ not bee deceiued nor deceiue others The same S. Augustine contending with the Donatistes hath these woordes Nos nullam Cypriano facimus iniuriam cum eius quaslibet literas à canonica Diuinarum scripturaruÌ„ autoritate distinguimus neque sine causa tam salubri vigilantia Canon ecclesiasticus constitutus est ad queÌ„ certi prophetaruÌ„ ApostoloruÌ„ libri pertineÌ„t quos omnino iudicare noÌ„ audemus secundum quos de caeteris fideliuÌ„ infideliuÌ„ iudicamus mox ca. 32. Ego huius epistolÄ™ autoritate noÌ„ teneor quia literas Cypriani noÌ„ vt canonicas habeo sed eius ex canonicis considero quod iÌ„ eis diuinaruÌ„ scripturatuÌ„ autoritati coÌ„gruit cum laude eius accipio quod auteÌ„ noÌ„ congruit cuÌ„ pace eius respuo Whiche is to saie We doo Cyprian no wrong when we make a difference betweene euery letter and writing of his and the Canonicall autoritie of the holy scriptures Neither without cause thecclesiasticall Canon with so holsome care hath béen appoincted to the whiche the certain assured bookes of the Prophetes Apostles pertaine the which in no wise we presume to iudge and according to the which we iudge of all other bookes writinges both of the faithfull and of the infidels And straight waies after in the 32. chapiter I am not bound to the autoritie of this epistle because I hold not Cyprians letters and writynges for Canonicall but consider his writynges by the Canonicall what accordeth in them to the auctoritie of the diuine Scriptures I allowe with his praise and what disagreeth froÌ„ them by his leaue I refuse These are the woordes of S. Augustine You maie sée here how S. Augustine preferreth the scriptures before the doctours yea before S. Cyprian so often by you M. Dorman alleged who was in deede a blessed martyr is no doubt a sainct in beauen and who also is mosse against you euen where he is alleged by you You see S. Augustine will haue sainct Cyprians writynges and all other doctours and mennes saiynges and writynges examined and Iudged by the scriptures whiche you yet reiecte as no coÌ„uenient iudges and that the scriptures maie be iudged by no man Yea S. Cyprian hymself agreyng hereto sheweth the causes why heresies schismes corruption of the truthe and breache of vnitie dooe come into the Churche and why so many are deceiued by the deuill transformyng hymself into an angell of light by these woordes Hoc eò fit fratres dilectissimi dum ad veritatis originem non reditur nec caput quaeritur nec magistri coelestis doctrina seruatur Quae si quis consideret examinet tractatu longo at que argumentis opus noÌ„ est That is to saie This coÌ„meth to passe hereof moste beloued brethren for that wée dooe not retourne to the origene â—â— beginnyng of the truthe neither is the head sought nor the doctrine of the heauenlie maistor kepte The whiche thynges if a man dooe consider and examine it shall not neede any long treatiâ— orargumentes Thus farre saincte Cyprian Who calleth Christe originem veritatis caput vnum caput originem vnam magistrum coelestem c. To saie The beginnyng of the truthe the head the onelie head the onely beginnyng the heaueÌ„lie schole maister whose doctrine if we would obserue we should not saith S. Cyprian neede any longe treatie or argumenâ—es But for that this beginnyng of the truthe is not returned vnto this heade is not soughte for the doctrine of this hâ—auenlie schoolemaister is not kepte he affirmeth it to bee the cause of all heresies schismes endlesse contentions illusions
erat sancta quę apud impios non erat Nunc autē aut tales aut peiores facti sunt Christiani quales sūt hęretici aut gentiles adhuc autem maior continētia apud illos inuenitur quamuis in schismate sint quà m apud Christianos Qui ergo vult cognoscere quae sit vera ecclesia Christi vnde cognoscat nisi tantummodo per scripturas Sciens ergo Dominus tantam confusionem rerum in nouissimis diebus esse futuram ideo mandat vt Christiani qui sunt ī Christianitate volentes firmitatem accipere verae fidei ad nullam rem fugiant nisi ad scripturas Alioqui si ad alia respexerint scandalizabūtur peribunt non intelligentes quae sit vera ecclesia That is to saie Let them that bee in Christianitie flie to the scriptures And wherfore ought al Christians at this time to flie to the scriptures Because in this time sith heresies possessed those Churches there can bee no proofe of true christianitie neither can there be any other refuge of Christians desiryng to knowe the true faithe but the diuine scriptures For before it was declared by many meanes whiche was the true churche and whiche was Gentilitie but now thei who would knowe whiche is the true churche can knowe it by no meanes but onelie by the scriptures Why so For all these thinges whiche are properly Christes in y e truth the same hath heresie also in schisme Heresie hath churches likewise and the diuine Scriptures likewise Bishops likewise and other orders of clearkes Baptisme likewise the sacramente of thankes geuyng likewise and all other thinges to conclude euen Christ himself He therefore that would knowe whiche is the true churche of Christ how can he knowe it in so greate cōfusion of likelihoode but onely by the scriptures Further the churche of Christ might be knowen before by the maners of it when the conuersation either of all or of the moste parte of Christians was holie whiche was not so emongest the wicked But now Christians are become either suche or woorse then be the heretikes or Gentiles yea there is greater continencie emongeste them though thei bee in schisme then is emongest the Christians He therefore that would knowe whiche is the true Churche of Christe how can he knowe it but onelie by the scriptures The Lorde therefore knowyng that in the last daies there would be so greate confusion of thinges dooeth commaunde that Christians whiche be in Christianitie willyng to haue the suertie of true faithe dooe flie to no other thing but to the scriptures Els if thei haue respecte to other thynges thei shall stumble or faile of the truthe and perishe not vnderstāding whiche is the true churche Thus farre that aunciente author whose sentence and verie woordes though for auoidyng of prolixitie alittle intermitted I haue truely rehearsed You maie see that this auncient writer will not allowe that you beeyng the one partie should claime to your self the name of Christians the name of the churche the names of bishops and the names of the cleargie and so to take vpon you as iudges to condemne the other partie but that bothe you and wee must be iudged and tried whether we be in Christianitie and in the true church by the scriptures You see the names of the churche of Bishops and cleargie whiche are common to heretikes with Christians can not prooue you to bee catholikes for that heretikes vse the same names but that bothe you and wee muste knowe by the Scriptures whether wee bee in the true faithe or no for that as he saieth in this confusion of thinges bothe the true churche and the true faith must bee knowen by the Scriptures onelie and by no other thyng and that whosoeuer goeth aboute otherwise to knowe them shall stumble and perishe Wherein this author dooeth agree with S. Augustine S. Hierome S. Chrysostome and with all the olde Doctours of the auncient churche Whereby al men maie well vnderstande that it is not our newe opinion as M. Dorman would haue it seme but the olde true perswasion of all the auncient doctors and godly fathers of the primitiue churche that the Scriptures as moste indifferent and certaine ought to be iudges in controuersies in religion rather then Doctours then Councelles then your Churche then dead menne then angelles yea that the scriptures should bee iudge and not thei And that the true sense of scriptures if doubte rise thereof maie bee and must be gathered by the conference of the scriptures who doo clearly expounde themselues For the declaration whereof the said doctors doo so often and largely write that the rehersall thereof would fil an huge volume but I did thinke that this much would suffice But you Papistes will neuer allowe the Scripture as iudge nor the sense thereof to be certaine vntill it come to the exposition of the Churche and you will bee that churche that must so expounde it your self that is you will graūt no sense to be true but your own sense But wee deny that you are the true Churche that hath this autoritie of determinyng of the sense of the scriptures And if you will saie still your are the churche neither will nor can proue it but onely by so saiyng we be not so voide of all sense and vnderstāding but that we perceiue you will haue no sense but your owne and that you will be still bothe parties and iudges in your own causes againste vs as the Iuishe high Prieste Phariseis and Scribes would needes be against Christ and his Apostles who did by your iudgemēt as it semeth allege the scriptures for themselues againste the saied high Prieste Scribes and Phariseis in vaine for that thei being the churche as you now be were the iudges of the sense of the saied scriptures by Christ and his Apostles alleged And I am sure that the high Prieste with his Iuishe churche was able to saie as muche for the ordinarie succession of the high Priestes his predecessours euen from Aaron vntil his time for antiquitie for consente and for vniuersalitie againste Christe and his Apostles so fewe in comparison and as it seemed latelie starte vp as you are able to saie for your churche or against vs. But yet we doo thinke that the woorde of God as it was alleged by Christe and his Apostles against the saied high priest and his churche so maie it and ought also to be alleged by vs against your high priest and your churche and that the same woords of God whiche shal iudge bothe you vs in the worlde to come as is saied ought also to be iudge betwéen you and vs here in this transitorie worlde for so dooeth our sauiour Christ teache so doo S. Chrysostome S. Augustine and S. Hierome with all the auncient doctors of the Churche teache also as hath been partely besore specified crie you neuer so muche to the contrarie and make you neuer so many exceptions to the scriptures and claime
haue we lost Is it not well and plainely declared by the examples of kyng Dauid Salomon Iosaphat Ezechias and Iesias that princes haue authoritie in gouerning of the Cleargie churche matters though they may not execute all ecclesiasticall functions and offices What though our most gracious soueraigne Ladie beynge a woman haue not so great skill in feates of warre as haue hir capitaines haue not so good knowledge in the lawes of hir realme as hir Iustices and other learmed men in the lawes haue though she haue in all good learning and in the scriptures too more knowledge then had any of your Popes this seuen hundreth yeres I beleue and therefore no lette in that poinâ—te but she may be head of the whole churche as well and rather then the Pope what if shée sit not in publique iudgement nor determine controuersies as dooe hir Iustices or be not general of an armie as are the nobles hir subiectes What I saye if shée can noâ— execute all ciuill offices in hir owne person Would you therfore M. Dorman take from hir hir ciuill principalitie ouer hir subiectes that she shall not be their Prince and head vnder God Surely you may with as good reason dooe it as you woulde take away hir superioritie ouer hir clergie from hir for that she can not may not nor will not execute ecclesiasticall functions Though the quéenes maiestie haue not that vnderstanding of all the affaires of hir realme that experience in all thinges that actiuitie in executing theÌ„ that hath the whole body of hir most honorable Councell yet doothe the whole body of hir Councell though most honorable humblie acknowledge hir to be their head onely proude Priestes because some thinges are incident to their office whiche the Prince may not nor liste not to dooe refuse their soueraigne to be their supreame gouernour Let the bishoppes be the Queenes Maiesties most godly Councell in matters of religion and I pray God they may so be as is the other moste honorable Councell in ciuill matters but let that godly Councel as well as that most honorable Councel be vnder the godly and moste highe honorable Prince as superiour to them both To commande thinges as well ecclesiasticall as ciuill to be done to sée them done to commende and rewarde all well dooers of them to correct and punishe all euill dooers of them or negligent in their office is the part of an head or supreame gouernour to doo thinges commaunded is the office of inferiour membres and obedient subiectes But M. Dorman would proue that the head is not the head because it can not nor liste not dooe all offices of all the principall membres of the bodie and séeketh for an head emongest the membres because they can dooe some thinges that the head can not For this is in déede the very effecte of that his seconde long treatie next folowyng a matter moste méete for M. Dormans dreaming head in the which treatie his chiefe paines is tâ— prooue that Priestes and not Princes ought by theyr office to preache to minister the Sacramentes to excoÌ„municate to absolue to resolue men â—n doubtes and scruples of conscience and suche liâ—e whiche no man euer denied yea and he thinketâ— that in so dooinge he hath spunne a fayre thréede Thus muche hath M. Dorman by his transition annexed to th end of this his treatie of one head occasioned me to admonishe the readers of that matter whiche as it may suffice for an answeare to the whole treatie folowing with all discreate readers so shall I yet for the satisfiyng of the meaner sort particularly answeare as muche as shal be left vntouched by the bishop of Sarisburie for the same matters as being before handled by D. Harding are incideÌ„t to the bishops answeare of his booke specially if there he any thyng sounding against the Princes supreame gouernment ouer persons and in causes as well ecclesiasticall as ciuill or temporall FINIS Fol. 3. 5. 14. 22. 60. 72. c. Fol. 65. M. Rastell in his praeface to continue the memorie of the chaleÌ„ge c. and to moue an expectation vvhich part shall firste shovv her weakenes c. * And againe he saith specially vvhere the nuÌ„breis great c. D. Hard. saith he did prepare his booke but for one friend and M. Rastell his booke for one friende alone in their prefaces to the Reader D. Harding in his preface to the B. of Sarum fol. 1. a. 2. b. and M. Rastell fol. 1. b. Math. 22. b. 16. c. Math. 22. d 35. Luc. 10. d. 25 In his preface Rastell in praefatâ—â—ne â–ª M. Rastell in his preface fol. 1. saithe I am but a comon souldiour amonge the orders of diuines and therfore I must stande behinde so manie bishops Doctors bachelers and scholars in diuinitie I vvill vvith a penknife deminish his lustie bloud Let the olde souldiours vvith great svvoordes and pikes kill his heresie * And againe M. Rast saith he will proue M. Iuell may be answered by a meane Scholer in Diuinitie that he nedeth not to prouoke the best of the Catholikes lyuinge D. Harding fol. 5. D. Harding fol. 75. b. M. Rastell in his praefa econfesseth his booke to haue bene begun four yeeres agoe fol. 119. * Raylinge Reuilynge â–ª Ribalrie Dorman fol. 110. â— 1. 2 3 4 Math. 7. c. 15. Mar. 12. d. 38. Luc 20. g. 46. Iohan. 18. e. 28. f. 31. Domine iâ—dex rogam vos c. Vt in actis Regist LoÌ„dinensiâ— Marc. 12. Luc. 20. Act. 22. a. 3. It is to be founde fol. 49 b. of the first print and fol. 50. b. of this print Nowell It is Epist â— Lib. epist 3. Epist 11. Lib. 4. Epist 9. Epist 61. 2â— Episcopos Italiam Galliam Nowell It is Epist 69. He should haue saied * thei inuade the chief roumes or places * he is compted more worthie to be the bishop of the people Hosius contra Brentium lib â–ª 1. folio 24. lib. 5. fol. 249. In oratione habita in consistorio Romae 1564. Februario mense typis excusa Basil epist 69. a Defecerunt qui pascunt cuÌ„ scientia ouile domini b Aconomias pauperum in proprias voluptates iÌ„sumuÌ„t c Annihilata est canonum sinceritas d Licentia peccandi multa c. e Serui enim sunt eoruÌ„ qui beneficiuÌ„ contulerunt Nowell Hosius against Brentius lib 2 Fol. 42. hath the same Basilius Epistola 70. Persequutionem patiuntur pastores vt disê‘gantur oues gregis Lib. 6. ca. 30. Nowell It is cap. 3. and not 30. The like is Eusebii libr. 6. cap. 43. and in sundrie Epistles of S. Cyprian vvho dooth speake moste of Nouatianus The banishement of scholers from the vniuâ—rsities for refusing to svveare against the Pope Eusebius libr. 6. cap. 43. Cyprianus li. 3. Epist 13. Eusebius li. 6. cap. 43. Nicephorus lib. 6. cap. 3. Cyprianus lib. 4. epist 9. Cyprianus li. 2. epi. 8 IdeÌ„est Nouatus qui apud â—os primum discordiae
haue raigned but not by me thei haue been Princes and I haue not knowen them And if suche seueral testimonies of doctours maie not serus vs if we for further proufe bring a number of doctours ioinctly agreyng together forbiddyng bishops suche tyrannicall dominion ouer the churche of God as did saincte Cyprian in the Councell of Carthage with the allowance of the whole Councell then and with the approbation of saincte Augustine afterwarde and an other whole Councell also The woordes spoken by saincte Cyprian in the saied Councell and by so many Bishops and Doctours allowed are these Nemo nostrum episcopum se episcoporum constituit aut tyrannico terrore ad obsequendi necessitateÌ„ collegas suos adigit quando habeat omnis episcopus pro licentia libeitatis potestatis suae arbitrium proprium tanquà m iudicari ab alio noÌ„ possit cum necipse possit alterum iudicare That is to say None of vs maketh hymself Bishop ouer Bishops or doeth by tyrannicall feare force his felowe Bishops to the necessitie of obeiyng seyng euery Bishop hath for his libertie power his free iudgement as he who can not be iudged of an other neither can himself iudge an other Bishop Thus farre saincte Cyprian and saincte Augustine Wee shall profite I saie no more by the allegations of Doctours yea or whole Councelles thaÌ„ by the allegation of the Scriptures themself againste the Popes saiynges or doynges what so euer thei bee Neither the texte of the scriptures nor the interpretation of Doctours nor iudgementes of Councelles can haue any credite againste hym For as Pighius the principall Doctour of the Popes part saieth In concilijs vniuersalibus vniuersis haud ferè aliud factum est quà m vt conuenientes ex toto orbe episcopi praeiudicatam iam Apostolicae sedis vnanimi consensu amplexarentur sequerentur sententiam nec in eis definitum aliquid quod non iam praeiudicatum antè definitumque esset à sede Apostolica That is to saie In all generall Councelles for the moste parte nothyng els is doen but that Bishops comyng together out of all partes of the worlde should embrace and folowe with agreable consent the foreiudged and afore determined sentence of the Apostolike see and that nothyng was defined in suche generall Councelles the whiche was not before defined and foreiudged by the Apostolike see Thus farre Pighius who also affirmeth in the same place that the onely iudgement of this one see is more sure then the iudgement of an vniuersall CouÌ„cell of the whole worlde Wherby it maie well be vnderstaÌ„ded what labour and coste euen by the Papistes themselues is loste and how in vaine their Bishoppes take suche paine to come to Councelles out of all partes of Christendome leauyng their cures vncared for and vnlooked tos and that sometyme a sorte of yeres together as of late thei haue doen in the laste Tridentine councell onelie to determine thynges alreadie determined and that therefore thei should like wise men keepe themselues at hâ—me and spare suche trauell and coste and onely herken what is pronounced out of that sacred mouth of the Pope at Rome and it to obeye absolutely And the same Pighius afterward in an other place saieth expresly Huic sedi authoritas componendi definiendi exortas i domo ecclesiastica vniuersas questiones controuersias ab eodem Christo est data tibi verò illius definitionibus iudicijs absque vlla discussione est imposita obsequendi necessitas That is to saie The authoritie of orderyng definyng and determinyng of all questions and controuersies risen in the Churche is geuen by Christe to this see of Rome and vpon thee is laied a necessitie of obeiyng all definitions and determinations of the saied see without any examinyng or discussing of y e same These be Pighius woordes also No meruaile therefore if you doo well coÌ„sider the premisses that M. Dorman calleth the Popes supremacie the fundation of al. Naie it is the fundation superstruction batilmentes garnishinges and all together it is all and all in all For were this one article of the Popes supremacie with the appurtenauÌ„ces as I haue said once obteined you neede not to trauell in writyng any more you neede not to bryng any proufes out of the scriptures Doctours or Councelles for you or againste vs any more for it were concluded at once that you be the Catholikes who doo acknowledge the necessitie of obeiyng the voice the determinations and definitions of that high Prieste without whattes or whies without discussyng or examinyng of them by your selues or with others and that we bee the heretikes who doo not obeye his voice beyng against Goddes voice but are so bolde to examine how his voices doo agree with Gods voice And therefore are we worthie to dye moste cruell death due to suche false heretiques Graunte this one proposition of the Popes supremacie with the appurtenaunces I saie and by and by all that M. Dorman hath hitherto most leudlie alledged or shall alledge hereafter for the Popes supremacie is to the purpose all lies he hath alreadie made and shall hereafter make for that purpose are truthes And whatsoeuer we saie to the contrarie what scriptures what Doctours what Councelles so euer we bryng all is to no purpose nor of any credite for he alone is iudge whose the cause is he alone as your greate Doctour Pighius saieth is more to be beleued then a generall Councell of the whole worlde assembled And therefore hath M. Dorman doen like a wise manne to entreate first of the Popes supremacie and in the treatie thereof to spende more paper ynke more oile and labour as thei saie yea twise as muche as he hath doen in the other three principall matters though otherwise the greatest of all other as touching euen the verie Masse it self whiche as it hath hitherto susteined the Pope and all his Cleargie so if the Pope doo not now by his supremacie and irrefragable authoritie susteined by maister Dorman like a friende at néede susteine the Masse againe it maie come to passe that bathe Pope and Masse will come to nought shortly Now foloweth the diuision of M. DormaÌ„s treatie Dorman fol. 4. In the handlyng whereof I purpose God willyng to take this order Firste before I come to the principall poincte that lieth in question betwene vs whiche is of the bishop of Romes supremacie to proue to you by moste plain and euident reasons that the Churche of Christe here militante in earth muste of necessitie for diuerse and sondrie vrgent causes haue one chief heade and ruler vnder Christe to rule and gouerne the same Secondarily that that one heade muste needes bee a Prieste Thirdlie so last of al that of all priestes the bishop of Rome is he whiche must supplie that place and that for so that is head ruler of the churche he hath byn of the auncient couÌ„cels olde fathers within the first sixe
reader meruaile not that I answere this merie manne thus rufflyng in his maskes after this maner but weighe I praie thee his writyng from this place forwardes where he praieth that he be not holden and marke what a shreude shakyng he maketh speciallie for a whole leafe more next after folowyng Where you say M. DormaÌ„ that we blind the people with glitteryng shewes you dooe obiecte to vs your owne crimes It is you Papistes who by your glitteryng glorious maskyng garmentes and other costlie and fine furniture as copes vestimentes gilted crosses candlestickes dead mennes and often dead beastes boones burnished ouer with burnyng gold by your Ceremonies your minstrelsie your belles banners and other bables haue bewitched and striken not onely the simple but a greate many of the wiser sorte also starke blind and deaffe too that neither thei can sée any thing of Christ their sauiour nor heare and vnderstand ought of his moste holie woorde And you haue compelled theÌ„ in the steed of sincere and spirituall woorship of the true God with you to put all religion in outward dumbe ceremonies the seelie weake and wretched elementes of this worlde and not to regarde the God of their fathers but in stéede of him to honour the God Maozim and to woorshippe a God whom their fathers did not knowe with glitteryng golde siluer precious stone and other precious thynges in place of true vnfaigned faithe and a pure harte With what securitie we dooe vtter the truth forbidden vs by you as it was to Christes Apostles by the high Priestes and Phariseis your forefathers all prisons in EnglaÌ„de replenished of late with our captiue bodies all markette places and other more viler sprinkeled with our bloud shed by the crueleste kinde of death that the Deuill the homicide your greate graundfather could diuise dooeth plentifully testifie to the whole worlde And the moste part of vs losyng our liues together with all worldelie hope by death more dreadfull then is vsuall either to Felons murtherers or to moste sauage noisome wilde beastes might geue you to vnderstande if you would consider that it is no newe fangled appetite or luste of vtteryng errours or hope of worldlie gaine that dooeth moue vs to preache against your heresies and superstitions but euen the same méere necessitie of conscience whiche in like case inforced the Apostles likewise forbidden vpon paine of death to preache who made answere that it was more reason to obeie God then maÌ„ and that thei could not choose but teache those thinges whiche thei did knowe certainlie to be moste true And the same answere dooe we make to you for the whiche you will suffer vs to haue no securitie in this life Concernyng the scripture and the sense thereof the reader maie in a like case coÌ„sider Whereas there was a controuersie betwene the Apostles and the high priestes Scribes and Phariseis aboute the interpretation of the Scriptures touchyng the true Messias by the whiche Scriptures the Apostles prooued that Christe our Sauiour whom thei had crucified was he but the high Priestes and Phariseis by their interpretations attempted the contrarie and would not haue suche a poore and abiect man as to them and the worlde it séemed that Christ was to be their Messias Now had the Apostles as M. Dorman me thinke thinketh it reason leauyng the Scriptures in this case moste plaine referred the matter to the interpretation and determination of the high priest his consistorie wée might at this daie with the Iewes haue looked yet for a Messias to come and should with them haue lacked to our vtter damnation the sauiour of the worlde Iesus Christ the sonne of God who is at this daâ—e to them by reason of suche their interpretations the stone of stumbâ—yng and the rocke of ruine but to vs who doo beleue in him he is become wisedome and righteousnesse and sanctification and saluation And as there was then a coÌ„tronersie betweene the Apostles and the high Priestes whether thei had vniustlie or iustlie slaine that righteous one and innocent Lambe of God and no reason it was that the murtherers themselues should be iudges beyng not onelie accessaries but the principall parties to the murther so there being now risen a controuersie betwene vs and you about the true religioÌ„ of the same our Saniour whiche how shamefullie you haue with your traditioÌ„s corrupted euen as had your forefathers the Phariseis before corrupted the law of God he that hath but halfe an eye maie well seâ— you thinke it reason yet that you who are the corrupters and therefore parties should bee iudges therein also and speciallie your chief and moste high Prieste the Pope the poodle and sinke of all these abominations therefore moste guiltie of all other and consequently moste vnmeete to be the Iudge therein And yet M. Dorman will néedes haue hym the Iudge and the woorde of God so indifferent to all men and partiall to none reiected And why reiected I praâ—e you Forsoothe for that we maie by the Scriptures defende as you saie what errour wée liste as though that you maie not by the iudgemente of the Pope and by your own iudgementes vnder the name of the churche farre more easilie as you haue brought in so also mainteine and defende all errours and superstitions Is not the Pope more partiall to hymself and you his Papistes then are the Scriptures to vs Wherefore it were as good reason that Annas and Caiphas should bee Iudges whether thei themselues had dooen iustlie and righteouslie or wickedlie and murderouslie in sleayng Christe as that your Pope or you the corrupters of true Religion should be iudges whether in so dooyng you haue dooen well or no. If it be no reason as the prouerbe goeth to aske whether one bee a theefe or no of his felowe muche lesse reason is it to aske the same question of hymself seyng it is certaine that he will not bewraie hymself But the aduersaries of the Gospell deale thus with vs the Pope and all his eleargie beeyng guiltie of many heresies corruptions of religion and false superstitions and thereof accused dooe assemble themselues together in a councell in the whiche nothyng maie bée moued muche lesse determined but suche as pleaseth the Pope hymself there is enquirie made of vs who dooe accuse them thereof and offer to prooue it and there vnhearde and vnseene wee are condemned of our aduersaries who will needes bee our Iudges as false accusers schismatikes and heretikes also for that wee are againste them who are as thei saie the Churche You will saie wee might bee heard if wee would for thei call certain of all Christian realmes to their councelles How we are called and how we maie be heard let Ihon Husse called by the Emperour Sigismunde his saulfe conducte vnder his greate Imperiall seale to the Councell of Constance with Hierome of Prague who bothe were contrary to the faith geuen them by the greatest Christian prince in
vnto your selues as beyng the churche the interpretatiō thereof yet suche are both your doctrine and dooynges and so contrarie to the woorde of God whervpon the true churche is builded that we muste needes thinke that you are not the true church of God And whether you so bee or no seeyng it is in question and a greater doubte and controuersie emongest men I am sure then can bee about the sense of any place of the scripture you shall neuer bee able to make any exception vnto the Scripture as no competent iudge in controuersies but we shall be able tenne tymes more to make exception to your Pope and his churche as no indifferent nor meete iudge Wherefore cease once to bragge of that as the vndoubted iudge of all doubtes whiche is it self emongest men of all other doubtes the greatest doubt that is whether you be the true church of God or no. Whiche is with vs in deede no doubte nor with any that hath any vnderstandyng in Goddes woorde and iudgemente in true religion For we certainlie knowe by the woorde of God vpon the whiche as the true churche is builded so is it by the same to be knowen that you bee not the churche of God for that you so swarue from the woorde of God As for vs that wee are at your handes though we bryng so euidente scriptures for vs so reiected and condemned wee take it the better for that wée vnderstande that our sauiour Christe and his holie Apostles likewise allegyng the scriptures yea and further by their woonderfull woorkes and moste godlie life confirmyng the same were by the high Priestes Phariseis and Scribes reiected condemned and siaine an eternall documente that in this worlde no persone nor doctrine can satisfie al men or shall be taken for a iudge of controuersies aboue all exception and quarellyng seyng that Christe hymself so teachyng so woorkyng so liuyng was excepted vnto as a Daemoniake or one possessed with the Deuill as a friende to sinners as a wine drinker and seeyng that heade corner stone was as vnprofitable to the buildyng of Gods churche and his holie woorde also as false doctrine reiected by the high priestes Scribes and Phariseis who would needes be the iudges of all themselues And wee conceiue good hope that as our sauiour himself with his holie Apostles teachyng the truthe though reiected and murdered by the said high Priestes Scribes and Phariseis haue wonne vnto them the iudgementes of all godlie men and wemen against suche vnrighteous iudges so we likewise teachyng the same truthe of our Sauiour reueiled in his holie Gospell though of this high priest and Romishe Caiphas with his adherentes Popishe Scribes and Phariseis reiected condemned and murthered shall against suche vniuste iudges winne vnto vs the iudgement of all godlie menne and wemen as to the greate decaie of their false superstition successe of the truthe is this daie thankes bee to God partlie come to passe in a greate parte of the Christian worlde Dorman fol. 8. But of this I will entreate more largelie hereafter In the meane season that theie will haue of Christes Churche here in earth no other head but Christ hymselfe therein thei fare me thincketh not muche vnlike to a certaine felon of whom I haue heard that beyng areigned at the barre for a felonie when he had pleadid to the indictement not guiltie and was after the manner demaunded how he would bee tried he would suspectyng his owne case and knowyng that if he satisfied the lawe in putting hymself apon the triall of the coūtrey there were no moe waies with hym but one make thereto no other answere but onely that he would put hymself apon God the righteous Iudge of all ▪ who although he said truely that God was the chief iudge of all as the protestantes do in calling Christ the head of the church yet was ther in his case an other iudge here in this world vnder god by whō he must haue byn tried as there is in theirs an other heade here in the churche to order them and kepe thē vnder in whō Christ the chiefe head of all vseth in all necessarie knowledge to giue answere And as the felon knewe well that there was an other iudge beside god appealed not to him as though before him he should haue byn acquitted proued not guiltie but onely to gaine a longer time of life and libertie so doe I doute not our aduersaries the protestantes And truely to bothe theise kinde of men beyng bothe theeues the one sorte doyng violence to the bodie the other to the soule if suche pleas mighte be allowed how soeuer thei be coloured with the name of Christe betwene them bothe thei would freely rob the bodie and murther the soule Nowell Now proceadeth he pleasantlie and by a parable of a certaine felone all to shaketh vs out of our cloutes as he praied he might be suffered to dooe In the handlyng whereof it maie seeme he hath dealte as he was wonte when some of his felowes had forgotten their partes in the plaie to holde men occupied for the time by suppliyng that defecte with some pretie conceites or tellyng of some merie tale thereby to make the auditours to laugh and the lesse to marke the mased memorie of his mates and so to saue the matter from vtter marryng as muche as in hym might lye In like wise dooeth maister Dorman here for where he hath to proue that of necessitie there must be one onely chief heade here in earth ouer the Churche whiche is in deede the firste and moste necessarie parte of the whole treatie of the Popes supremacie and the verie foundation of all whiche not proued or els leudly proued all the reste commeth doune vpon their heades For the whiche so greate a matter little beyng as yet saied by M. Dorman and nothyng in deede and lesse remainyng behinde to bee saied the man beyng destitute of all carnest matter piththie reason and good authoritie turneth himself to his accustomed arte and by a pretie tale of a certaine felone all to shaketh vs as he before threatned he would dooe out of our masking cloutes as he termeth them and this he dooeth to supplie other defectes thereby and to make this first parte moste necessarie of all to be piththily proued by suche patchyng of i◠vp at the leaste a quarter as bigge as his seconde part of this treatie to witte that no prince or lay man maie be the onely head of the whole Churche for that priestes haue more to doo in ecclesiastical matters thā thei haue Whiche so long an impertinente parte had M. Dorman put vp in his purse and passed ouer with silence he had spared a greate deale of paper ynke and labour and of other mennes tyme also a greate deale more and had hurte his cause no more thereby then if he had lefte his dagger sheathe behynde hym when he came out in haste to plaie his parte in the pagiaunte But
vnknowen to all the worlde and all menne to liue not onely without explication of doubtfull places of the scripture but without knowledge of any place of the scripture at all and in steede of Gods woorde to haue pampered vp Gods people with their poisoned pappe of Poperie But saieth M. Dorman God did not commaunde any suche conference of scriptures but onelie to resorte to the high Prieste yet I trust M. DormaÌ„ is not ignorant what it meaneth that God and our sauiour Christ dooe so earnestlie exhorte all men to the diligent readyng and studie of the scriptures and dooe condemne the ignoraunce or wante of knowledge thereof And where he saieth God hath not commaunded suche conference of the scriptures which yet in effecte he hath commaunded it is happie that he can not shewe where God hath forbidden it which if he could he would not haue failed to haue dooen But seyng M. Dorman setteth so muche by Gods commaundementes and would so faine haue vs leaue the conference of scriptures as not commaunded by God as he thinketh I would he should aduertise the Papistes his felowes that thei would once leaue their Idolatrie to Images with other their superstitions so ofte and expressedlie by God forbidden as to all godlie menne is well knowen Dorman fol. 12. For emongest so many as at all times haue disquieted the Churche what one heretike are thei able to recon ouerthrowen by the scriptures VVas Arrius vaÌ„quished by them Naie if you brought to coÌ„uince him this text Pater egovnum sumus my father I are one he would tell you againe that the same Christe that so saied saied also pater meus maior me est my father is greater then I. VVhat had you then wonne at his handes that would tell you that one place of Scripture muste expound an other and that therefore your place must bee expounded by his And if you would wade farder with hym he would interprete your place as he did with the catholikes to be vnderstande of vâ—itie in will and not in substaunce and bryng you scripture toe although wrested from the true sense that should seeme well to prooue his distinction As when our Sauiour praied vnto his father in this sorte pater sancte serua eos in nomine tuo quos dedisti mihi vt sint vnuÌ„ sicut et nos kepe theÌ„ ô holie father in thy name whom thou haste geuen to me that thei maie be one as we twoo are one Nowell First to M. Dormans demaunde whiche is the pith of all that he saieth in a leafe and more next folowyng I answere the Arrians Anabaptistes and all heretikes without exception were vanquished and ouerthrowen by the Scriptures and that if thei were not vaÌ„quished by the scriptures thei were not vanquished at all For what though thei saied thei were not vanquished were thei therefore not vanquished because thei would not coÌ„fesse it Did the Iuishe high priestes Scribes and Phariseis confesse themselues vanquished by Christe and his Apostles Were thei therefore not vanquished for that thei would not graunte it I would aske againe of M. Dorman what one heretike of so many can he recken ouerthrowen but by the scriptures But whereas M. Dorman hath been continually harpyng vpon this stryng against the scriptures labouryng to bryng vs from them to the Pope and his churche as he still holdeth on so to dooe leaste I should at euery occasion by him offered with tediousnesse repeate the same thynges againe I remitte the reader to the. 68. leafe of this booke before where and in the processe folowyng it is at large declared that if we doubt whether we be Christians or no we must be resolued by the scriptures if wee doubte whether we bee in the true faithe or no we muste resorte to the Scriptures if wee doubte whiche is the true Churche and whether we bee in the same or no we muste bee certified by the scriptures and that suche as seeke other meanes to bee resolued of these and suche like doubtes otherwise thaÌ„ by the scriptures shal be deceiued and perishe Where also is declared that neither the Pope nor Popishe Churche can be conuenient and competent iudges in controuersies now risen for that thei are both parties and parties accused therein no more then the Iewishe high priest with his churche of Scribes and Phariseis were conuenient and competent iudges in the controuersies betweene them and Christes Apostles for that the saied high Prieste Scribes and Phariseis were parties yea and parties accused and guiltie too of the death of Christ about whom was all the controuersie betwene them and therefore were thei moste vnméete to bee iudges thereof Touchyng the conference of the scriptures together I did so late before at large intreate thereof that I néede not now to repete the same again And thus muche to M. Dormans question Now if M. Dorman haue brought in this example of the Arrians to bryng vs in suspition with the simple people as fauouryng the Arrians all learned and godlie can cléerâ— vs who dooe knowe how muche wee dooe abhorre the Arrians heresies and how earnestlie in our sermons writynges wee dooe oppugne them yea Hosius your chief champion shall answere for vs who dooeth muche praise our writynges and dooynges too againste the Arrians Dorman Fol. 13. In the exposition and right vnderstandyng of these fewe woordes Hoc est corpus meum this is my bodie how happeneth it that the Caluinistes and the Lutheranes agree not by conferryng one place of the Scripture with an other if that bee so readie a waie Dooeth not Caluine with all his teache vs that the sense and true interpretation of these woordes muste needes be atteined by the conference of one place of Scripture with an other And to that ende dooe thei not fondlie allege saincte Paule callyng Christe a rocke yea Christe callyng hymself a vine when he was in deede neither the one nor the other but by a similitude As though because th'Apostle or Christ hymself vseth a figure in one place wee muste thinke that in all other he neuer spake otherwise By whiche abominable doctrine what letteth if a manne would bee so wicked to affirme that Christe the sonne of God and seconde persone in Trinitie were not the true and naturall sonne of God but by adoptioÌ„ onely and for that wicked heresie to bryng this texte Dedit eis potestatem filios dei fieri he gaue them power to be made the sonnes of God VVhiche wordes wee knowe beyng spoken by vs menne muste bee vnderstande by grace and adoption and frowardlie to mainteine that all the places whiche any good manne can bryng for the defence of the contrarie should bee drawen to this texte alleged by them and expounded and vnderstanded thereby Nowell This is M. Dormans vsage when he can saie nothyng of the presente case to intermingle foraine matters thereby to auert the readers minde from his principall cause remainyng vnprooued
still But how soeuer Caluin and Luther agree in the exposition of these fewe woordes Hoc est corpus meum This is my bodie thei agree bothe in this that the Papistes expound them falsely For to vse the places by M. Dorman noted out of Hosius he nor all Papistes with hym shall neuer be able to showe cause why these woordes Ego sum vitis vera I am the true vine dooe not prooue as well a transubstantiation as Hoc est corpus meum This is my bodie Is not this as plainlie spoken and as piththilie I am a true or a verie vine as This is my bodie Naie if Christe had saied likewise this is my true and verie bodie as he saied I am a true or verie dine what a rule had we then had Christe saieth Ego sum panis I am breade and yet no transubstantiation of his bodie into breade Why should these woordes Hoc est corpus meum This is my bodie more transubstantiate bread into his bodie This is fondlie alleged saieth M. Dorman If wee saie likewise that all that he hath here said of the controuersie of the Sacramente out of place leauyng his purposed matter vnproued is verie fonde what hath he then wonne that I maie vse his owne phrase Dorman Fol. 13. The Anabaptistes who denie the Baptisme of infantes leane thei not thinke you to this grounde of yours Yea truelie and good reason it is that beyng all heretikes as you are although in some poinctes dissentyng yet all ioignyng and agreeing in one cancred hatred againste the Churche you should all vse the same rules principles For that I maie here passe ouer that reason of the Anabaptistes which belongeth to an other place that therefore infantes must not bee Baptized because it is not expressed in Scripture a principle also of your religion but deliuered vnto vs by tradition saie thei not also that thei haue the scripture plaine for them againste vs VVhere it hath Qui crediderit baptizatus fuerit saluus erit He that beleueth and is baptized shal bee saued and againe in an other place vna fides vnum baptisma one faithe one baptisme By whiche places saie thei it appeareth that faithe must go before and baptisme folowe after And when the Catholikes to represse and vtterlie ouerthrowe this brutishe and beastlie opinion answere that for infantes thus baptized the faithe of the churche is sufficient and accounted for theirs crie thei not as you doe that in this controuersie one place of scripture muste expounde an other And that therefore where as the scripture requireth in him that is baptized faithe that thei must haue it of their owne accordyng to the Apostles saiyng fides ex auditu faithe commeth by hearyng whiche infantes can not haue and according to the saiyng of the Prophete Iustus ex fide sua victurus est the iuste manne shall liue by his owne faithe Nowell First to M. Dormans false sclaunder we answere we bee no heretikes no Arrians no Anabaptistes we teache of Christes diuinitie and of Baptisme and all other thynges accordyng to Gods woorde Where he saieth the Catholikes doo represse and ouerthrowe the brutishe opinions of the Anabaptistes we aunswere that it is moste certaine well knowen to the worlde that our menne haue saied and written more againste them then euer did the Papistes Wherefore wee bee therein as in all other thynges in deede the Catholikes and not thei Dorman Fol. 13. I am sorie that in answeryng to this fonde reason I haue been compelled to make any mention of suche horrible heresies as these are whiche I had muche rather were with their firste authours buried in helle from whence thei came where neither thei nor their name mighte euer hereafter offende the conscience of any good Christian manne But as I haue necessarilie laied before your eyes theise that by a parte you maie iudge of the whole so haue I willinglie staied my selfe from rehearsyng whole swarmes of suche opinions as beyng of all menne taken for confessed heresies onelie depende vpon this one false grounde that wee neede here in earth no other iudge to decide and determine doubtes arisyng vpon the scripture then the scripture it self whiche beyng thei saie laied and conferred together one texte with an other will not faile to bryng vs to the right vnderstandyng thereof Nowell What other necessitie I praie you put the man to this sorowe he speaketh of or compelled hym to suche mention but onelie the defecte of proofes for his purposed matter of the necessitie of one heade ouer all the churche whiche lacke he is driuen to supplie with such digressions of the Swenkfeldians Arrians and Anabaptistes altogether impertinente to his purpose and with declaimyng against the scriptures and woorde of God Whiche distresse also droue him destitute of matter so often to repeate that one séelie similitude and euell likelihood betwene the Iuishe high Priest and the Pope And yet M. Dorman thus digressyng and swaruyng hymself is not ashamed to speake to the Bishop of Sarum after this sorte I moste hartelie praie you keepe you without straiyng from the matter or allegyng of prooues impertinente as close as you can c. This is M. Dormans requeste whereof hymself hath geuen an example as you here maie see Now if al heretikes and heresies were as M. Dorman wisheth buried in hell then should the Pope with all his Papistes be buried together with them and we might liue still and with quietnesse praise Gods holie name preache his blessed woorde whiche maister Dorman dooeth set so light by To the reste we saie that as for resoluyng of doubtes wee dooe with saincte Augustine as is before rehersed thinke the conference of scriptures to bée moste necessarie so dooe we not refuse any other helpe of learned bishops as our guides and directours by the same Scriptures to all truthe But suche a one onelie supreme heade or Iudge ouer all the Churche as M. Dorman would haue to bee consulted of all men of all countries and languages vpon all doubtes arisyng neither dooe we acknowlege neither is it possible any suche to be And we saie that suche as haue chalenged or pretended so to be are moste presumptuous moste false vsurpers Now where M. Dorman would proue the conference of Scriptures a vaine or euill thing bicause the Arrians and Anabaptistes vsed it and vs to be heretikes as thei be because we vse the same groūdes to witte cōferring of scriptures together he might aswell reiecte all allegyng of scripture because the deuill vsed it and conclude that we bee of the deuill because we vse the same grounde that he dooeth that is to saie the allegyng of Scriptures Yea and he maie by the same reason finde faulte with Christe our sauiour and his holie Apostles who dooe so muche vse the saied allegyng of scriptures And M. Dorman in so dooyng should bee as reasonable as he is in callyng vs heretikes and blamyng vs vsyng