him and walked with and counted as his Some beleeved not the Holy-Ghost nor Christs Baptism and were zealous of the Law and yet the Disciples counted them as Beleevers Johns Disciples would have followed Iohn only but Iohn sent two of them to Christ at one time and told them againe he must increase but himselfe must decrease Christ in his time would not forbid any that went about in his Name There is none that doth any thing in my Name can lightly speak evill of me When the Spirit was given the Disciples bore one another out of the Church as the Beleevers of Iohns Baptisme and the zealots of the Law and one another in the Church they that did eat them that did not eat and they that regarded a day them that regarded not a day walking together as far as they attained by the same rule 16 No despising for too much learning or too little Let not one despise another for gifts parts learning let the Spirit be heard speak in the meanest let not the Scribe or Disputer of the Law despise the Fishermen nor they despise them because Scribes and Disputers The Spirit is in Paul as well as Peter in both as well as one 17 We may be in one Christ though divers Consider that we may be one in one Christ though we thinke diversly and we may be Friends though not Brethren and let us attaine to Vnion though not to Unity 18 The spirituall Persecution to be forborne Consider there is a twofold Persecution There is a spirituall or that of Beleevers and a mixt Persecution or civilly Ecclesiasticall The spirituall Persecution is that of the Spirit meerly and this kind of Persecution little thought on and studied this is when we cannot be are one anothers severall Opinions or soul-belief in the same spirituall Society or fellowship but they must either be of us or out of us and surely this kinde of Persecution is as unreasonable as any other for what is this but soul-compulsion when another must only beleeve as we beleeve and not wait till the Lord reveale even this This kind of spirituall compulsion will in time breake and dissolve the visible Communion of Saints and Body of Christ exceedingly if taken up or continued and it will be amongst Christians as amongst the Antichristians where they divide and subdivide and some cast themselves into a Monkery from all the rest Ierusalem and Antioch were not of this way to cast out one another upon such grounds but to meet reason and counsell and heare And surely the Churches can ill complaine of a mixt persecution from without if they persecute one another from within the Magistrate may as justly whip them both as they whip one another Such grudgings complainings dissolvings spirituall inforcings gives hint to the Civill power to compell while it beholds them but a little more spiritually coâ—pâ—lling one another Let all Church-rights priviledges boundaries be preserved all Heresie and Schism by the rule rebuked but in all spirituall meeknesse and wisdome and not call Heretick and Schismatick too suddenly since we see but in part THE UNWARRANTABLE WAY OF PEACE Or The Antichristian Designe of Reconciliation 1 To beleeve as the Church or Councels THat all should beleeve as the Church beleeves and this Church is the great Councels of Bishops Cardinals c as if the souls of all were to be saved only in the bundle of theirs as if they could beleeve both enough for themselves and all others 2 To set up one as the Pope for infallibilitie Because there may be difference amongst many and all may not agree therefore there shall be one say they with the Vrim and Thummim one infallibly decreeing and interpreting and unerring to whom the Spirit of Truth is successively derived and his determinations interpretations shall be finall conclusive and this that Vicar of Christ the Pope this one way in the Antichristian State and all Reformed Kingdomes were once under this Peace 3 To allow that all may be saved in their severall wayes Because there be severall Beleevers and severall interpretations and opinions one saying This is the way and another That therefore say some All in all wayes may be saved every one beleeving every thing Now this is one way to make peace but not the way there is but one Lord one Faith one Baptisme 4 To forbid Interpretings and Disputes Because several opinions arise by interpretings and disputings about Scripture therefore all openings of the Word all disputings must be forborne Because the Sun-shine offends some weak sight in the house shut up doores and windowes and make all dark Thus the Papists and Prelats in forbidding Scriptures and Marginall Notes and thus fearing there may be somthing false they will heare nothing that 's true 5 By a compulsive power Some take the Civill power in to make peace reckoning a compulsive Vniformitie for Vnity Peace and Truth This is one way to deale with the body indeed but not with the soul to mind the outward man but not the inward This way of Civilly Ecclesiasticall peace is the Antichristian designe who having got the Kings of the Nations to give their strength and power and Kingdome unto them supplies that from the world which they want from the Word making the spirituall power of Iesus Christ to receive its honour life efficacie power from the power of men This way of peace is such as hath by experience troubled Nations and troubled it self at length too and broken it self against that way which it aimed to breake For whosoever fals upon this stone shall be broken and on whomsoever it shall fall it shall breake them to powder THE OPINIONS OF THESE TIMES With the Exceptions each Opinion may be charged withall being the great Argument for Love Meeknesse and Forbearance one to another or of Peace and Reconciliation till the Lord reveale more Presbyterie So called What it is and what they hold THe Presbyterie is set up by an alleadged Patern of the Eldership and Presbyterie of the Apostles and Elders in the first Churches of the Gospell strengthened by such Scriptures as are in the margin and by allusion to the Jewish Government and to appeals in Nature Their Churches are Parochial or Parishes as they are divided at first by the Romish Prelates and the Statute-Laws of the State Which Parishes and Congregations are made up of such Beleevers as were made Christians first by Baptisme in Infancie and not by the Word And all the Parishes or Congregations are under them as they are a Classicall Provinciall and Nationall Presbyterie And over those Parishes they doe exercise all Church-power and Government ‖ which may be called The power of the Keyes Exceptions 1. THe Apostolicall and Primitive Eldership were not so authoritative over their Congregations as these pretend nor so compulsive or forcing their respective Congregations 2. The Apostolicall Eldership and Presbyterie were more ‖ infallible
remain unsatisfied they are not to be put upon his Dilemma of sin or misery or to be ruled with the rod but meeknesse 2 Cor. 4. 21. 2 Tim. 2. 25. Because the ignorance of the people generally which he would have for a reason to suspend it ought to be rather a reason for expedition that they may practically know it for while it is unknown it is slandered which might have been more amiable Because his two Texts make not only against the suspending for a time but for ever I wish he would preach such Texts as these to his people â— Thes 5. 12 13. 1 Tim. 5. 17. Heb. 13. 7 17. Reply To your first It belongs not to the people c. It seems then the people must be kept out from all intermedling But I would have the people mark well what kind of Government that is that sits upon the waters or people I am sure Christ's Government takes in the people and being once in a Church-way they lose their old capacity for a new and are raised up from People to Brethren Act. 15. It is a worthy saying of Master Goodwyn and Master Nye That the Clergie got the golden ball of Government amongst them and I censure it is not much mended in the Presbytery But you say The people must be instructed that is they must only know that they must obey But they are called and consulted with and owned as the Scripture holds forth where ever there is any Church spoken of But what though instructed They are only to be instructed and taught that this is the Government to which they must submit So the people under Popery Prelacy c. were instructed with that limitation and restriction But shall they be thus instructed and taught in it People here is a Government which to some of us seemeth to be a Government according to the Word take it and examine it if you be so perswaded and that the Word holds it forth clearly embrace it if not do not obey anything in blind and implicite obedience This were faire dealing with Conscience thus the Churches of Christ had their Government among them To that of the peoples compliancy you speak on it is not my work here to dispute the Interests of Elders and People distinctly but to make answer that the complyancy and submission which are the duties you set out for the people are such as they may easily see the Interest you allow them viz. an Interest of compliance only and submission or obedience to what is done already not any liberty to examine and refuse And when people are instructed still your work remaines to prove your Presbytery over Congregations or a Church gathered out of a Church to be over a Church which may upon the Presbytery more justly be recriminated then where you do so often recriminate upon gathered Churches And me thinks to me it is unreasonable to taxe any for church-gathering when your very Presbytery is maintained by such a kind of principle What is your Classicall your Provinciall your Nationall Presbytery but a Church gathered out of the rest call it a virtuall or representative or what you please For that of Meeknesse how meek it will prove and how meekly they shall be dealt with under it we are not to judge by any promises of Meeknesse but by Principles Are the Principles such as naturally bring forth Meeknesse or rather such as invest the Ministers and Elders with a power supreame and of dominion But what if such as your self and some other godly meek of your Way may propound nothing but waies of meeknesse to your selves Can you undertake to secure the people for hereafter and for all of the Way and for the Way in its own nature There are things of meek appearances as the Presbytery may be yet prove not so The Lamb in the Revelation had two horns though a Lamb. Hazael could say Am I a dog that thou shouldest think so harshly of me that I should kill the children in the womb 2 King 8 He as little suspected his own cruelty which the Prophet foresaw in his nature would come to passe as you do in your Presbytery which some seeing into the nature of it cannot but prophesie accordingly You know Episcopacy began in meeknesse and Bishops were brought in first for good and for Peace But how proved they Tyranny had ever a countenance of Meeknesse and Love till it got seated in the Throne So Absolon was very faire spoken in the Gate but how was he in the Throne For that of my Dilemma of sin and misery which you say people shall not be put upon it may be some in your or another Classis may find more meeknesse a spirit of more love and ingenuity But what is this to the nature of the Government that some in it are well natured And for that of sin and misery surely if the Presbytery be set on with power many a one will be in that snare partly in feare and partly in an easie complyancy For there are whole Parishes and Counties of this constitution And you your self say The wilfully weak must have the rod. And who will this be Such as are so in the judgement and interpretation of the Classis or how I would this were well cleared And for your Scriptures of 1 Cor. 4. 21. 2 Tim. 2. 25. Shall I come to you with a rod c. and in meeknesse instructing c. These are full Scriptures for ordering any Church government These are good Laws but then men must be rightly in Commission for ruling by them and people rightly ordered and disposed for such rules as in all other Laws and Kingdoms But what is this to your purpose till your Government appeare to be all Christs To that of the ignorance of the people which you would have for a reason of expedition rather then susponsion that they may practically know it I answer In practicall godlinesse the Scripture-way is not so Things must first be known before practically known or else the obedience can be but mixt blind and Popish Who can practically obey taking practically in a Scripture-sense that is with knowledge till they know and be perswaded Indeed in things civill c or morall practice may bring in knowledge habits may be acquiâ—ed and gotten by Acts a man may grow temperate by practising temperance and civilly obedient practising civill obedience But it is not so in Spirituals there habits go before acts spirituall infusions before practices And for the amiablenesse of it look into other Reformed Kingdoms and see what power of godlinesse is there by reason of it Do we not see the huge bodies of Nations very sinfull corrupt formall For Scotland our Brethrens preaching and watchfulnesse it may be more powerfull in a Reformation upon them then their Government And further I deny not but a Government of that nature may much reforme the outward man So may a meer prudentiall Government a meer civill Government if
them I had not ventured so far in my Quaere I considered the sad and farall troubles which attended the Magistrates ingagements with the Ministers the bloud which hath been powred out by Nationall compulsion of tender conscâ—eâ—ces and like a spirituall Watchman I could not but blow my Trumpet and give warning And for my comparison or Papists and Prelates I appeal to the world if there be any reproach whether it be not in the Interpreter rather then in the Author But I know no such thing by my Paper And if it be lawfull to draw in consequent conclusions and then father them I could prove you to speake Treason Blasphemy Idolatry Atheisme Heresie nay Independencie which some of your Way thinke worse Aâ—abaptisme Separation which would seeme to be as hatefull to you But I judge you not in any such sort nor had I spoken so far now but in a just Vindication You say You will conclude with my Politicks and upon such Principles as mine Church-government is ordained I have told you my Politicks were written by my dimmer light And if your Government be built upon no better Principles then mine I cannot but be out of conceit with that Government being so far out of conceit with mine own Principles and it makes me think the worse of it because my former Principles fit it so well Those Principles you speak on are partly of Câ—vill power and the Sword and the Dominion or Scepter in the Gospell is more Spirituall You say of my Text in the Revelation Revel 18 1. that as I began so I end with misapplication of Scripture Misapplication is a word sooner writ then proved and my reasons were rather crowded then ordered in my Paper The Scripture was this For the Angell that came down from Heaven hath great power and the earth is lightned with his glory Which Scripture there applyed doth hint to any that will not rather cavill then interpret that my only reason for delay of Government was in this An Angell was yet to come with power and glory or the Gospell would fill the earth with more light â—o as we should not shut up our selves too soon in the dark And now Reader judge whether it be my mis-application or his misinterpretation Spirituall Principles drawn forth Gospell-Truth is one and the same THat which is only in some parts of it warrantable by the Word is not purely nor in a Scripture-way warrantable For there is not any Will-worship but it hath something from the Patern of the true The Samaritan-worship was coppied after the Jewish and the Jewish when Christ came had Priests and Temple and Sacrifices and was copied by the Law But then there was Traditions and Commandements of men That is pure Gentilism which hath no Image of Gospell nor lâ—gall Truth Antichrist sits in the very Temple of God though rather upon it False Christs call themselves Christs as well as the true The great Image had a head of Gold though feet of Iron and Clay Every Heresie hath a Scripture Word in it But Truth must be all one and the same and Homogeneall not in parts so but all so There is but one Lord one Faith c. Prudence and Consequences are the great Engines of Will-worship THings of Prudence meerly are not to be admitted into the Spirituallway and Gospell-designe Prelacy had its Prudence for every new additionall in Worship and Government And once let Prudence open a doore and then will more of man crowd in then the 〈…〉 of God can keep out Nor is that to be admitted which is so received a Maxime Though not directly yet not repugnant to the Word Christs rule is not such he opposes any Tradition to the Commandements of God Not direct from Scripture is indirect and repugnant though not to the very letter of such words yet to the form and Analogie of truth to the generall Scripture-Law viz. the will of God that nothing shall be added or diminished ye are only my friends saith Christ if ye do what I command you and the Lord will raise you up a Prophet him shall yee heare For if any thing of Prudence is to be let in then something of Tradition for Prudence can make nothing higher noâ— purer nor better mâ—n can but give his own Image to the things â—e makes himself though he make them up of divine materials from Scriptures yet the form none but the Lord himself can give and the form is that which stamps Christs Image upon every Truth Every thing in the Word hath a form that is it is â—uch a thing of truth and not another Nothing but Gods power and will can make a thing Truth his power creates it and his will creates it such a Truth Nothing is agreeable to the Will of Christ but the very Will of Christ The Will of Christ is the only Legislative power in the Gospell Nothing is agreeable to his Will but what he wils every thing is repugnant to his will but what he wils so as this will is the supreme general law indeed the very form or essence of Scripture the Word of God And whatsoever is devised by Prudence though upon Scripture-materials yet being not the work of this will nor having the Stamp or Image upon it is none of Christs but as repugnant as any other Tradition or invention of men And here let us look to that new though old design against Truth the most subtill undiscernable and divinest kind of Will-worship in the world that which some call Scripture-consequence an unwholsome word as it hath been used for under colour of consequence what Conclusions may be promoted What may not Reason draw from Scripture and what may it not fashion like a Truth But consider in Parliament Laws or Ordinances or Commissions is it lawfull to take them and from every part of them to draw out results of our own and when there is but one Law make many subordinate Laws of our own and frame Laws out of Laws and Ordinances out of Ordinances and Commissions out of Commissions No sure But we must keep to that one generall entire litterall Law and Will of the Parliament Is it thus in Laws humane and not much more in Ordinances divine Yea there is the same onenesse entirenesse indivisibility and essentiality of the Truth Nor do I here disapprove any Scripture-consequence if meerly consequent and not formed up into a Law by meere reason for then mâ—n makes Laws from the Laws of God and this is not the least engine that Antichrist hath wrought with The people are Brethren and Saints in Christs Church but in Antichrists Parishioners and Servants VVHat kind of Government is marked out in Scriptures for sitting on the waters or people Christ governs by the people ministerially not over the people authoritatively only and the people being once in his Church-way lose their old capacity for a new and are raised up from people to Brethren to Churches It is a saying
it Quaere If confident sleightings c. were counted no sufficient answers from the Prelates to the Presbyters why are Presbyters sleightings counted so sufficient arguments for their Dissenting Brethren now and if to raile be to reason and to revile be to refute Mr. Edwards and some of his brethren have as strongly confuted us as the Prelates did formerly them 17. Prelates impropriate Orthodox In impropriating to the same party the praise of Orthodox as if to speak a word or think a thought against them were no lesse Heresie then it was in former times to speak against the Popes Supremacy or the Monks fat belly Quaere 1. It it were so ill taken by the Presbyters then that the Prelates impropriated the name Orthodox how may it be taken now by all the rest who are cast out as Hereticks and Schismaticks while they walke abroad cloathed only in the name of Orthodox Divines 2. If the Popes Supremacy and the Monks fat belly and the Prelates could not beare a word nor a thought against them are not some Divines working for a supremacy and a reuenue against which it may prove as great a crime to speake 18. All not of their opinion are factious Sure the man thinks he hath obtained a Monopoly of Learning and all knowledge is loct up in his bosome and not only Knowledge but Piety and peaceablenesse too for all that are not of his opinion must suffer either as weak or factious if he may be their judge Quaere 1. Whether do not they who hold all other in Schisme and Heresie and a company of Mechanicks who conforme not to them conceive they have the Monopoly of Learning as once the Prelates did and who are these now 2. Whether do not they who look on their Brethren that dissent as Troubâ—ers Factious Schismaticall cenceive all Piety and peaceablenesse to be lockt up in their own bosomes and who are they and who are the weake and factious if they may be judges 19. Prelates pathes causes of Divisions It is no wonder concerning the pathes our Prelates have trod that there are divisions in the Nation the wonder is the Divisions are no more no greater Quaere If the usurpation Tyranny Persecution of the Prelates were reckoned for the supreme division makers in the Kingdom when the Non-conformists were the only Separatists Why do they not find out some other or such like cause now in some other place rather then amongst their dissenting Brethren themselves whom they now only accuse of division and faction but this is the difference of being Parties and Iudges we naturally spie out faults furthest from our selves 20. Where is the Church of England We desire him to tell us what the Church of England is for it doth not please him that we should call the Convocation the Church of England much lesse the Bishops or Archbishops Quaere It was so hard to find out the Church of England in the Prelates dayes surely it is hard to find it out now then it seemes neither Synod Bishops nor Archbishops were the Church Then Quaere where is the Church now not in the Assembly they are but consulting how to build the Church not in the Presbytery for that is a Church unbuilt yet not among the Parisâ—es they are not Scripture-Churches or Congregations as the same Smectymnuus sayes then where is the Church of England 21. The name of Church is the Gorgons-Head But these Episcopall men deale as the Papists that dazle the eyes and astonish the senses of poore people with the glorious name of the Church the Church the holy mother the Church this is the Gorgons-Head that hath inchanted them and held them in bondage to their errours all their speech is of the Church the Church no mention of the Scriptures of God the Father but all of the mother the Church Quaere 1. If the name of Church then the mother-Mother-Church the Church was such a Gorgons-Head by which Prelates as well as Papists inchanted thousands of people to beleeve why is that very thing or device taken up in another forme to inchant with still viz. The Church of England the Orthodox Churches the Reformed Churches 2. If the Church Mother was so much spoken on before and the Scriptures so little why is not the Church of England the Reformed Churches the Orthodox Churches and Divines lesse spoken on and the Scriptures more 22. An ill Custome to say Church of England and Conformity It hath been the custome of late times to cry up the holy mother the Church of England to call for absolute obedience to holy Church full conformity to the orders of holy Church neglecting in meane time God the Father and the holy Scriptures Quaere If it hath been the unwarrantable custome of late times to cry up the Church of England and absolute obedience to the Church and conforâ—â—â—â— why is this custome still kept up conformity obedience and uniformity as much called for still as before why is not the word more spoken on and the Reformeâ— Church lesse why is not free Christian liberty peaceable forbâ—arance of each others differing opinions and practices in unity more heard among us and obedience conformity and uniformity lesse 23. To call Schismaticks and Hereticks the Bishops practice Only there is one practice of our Bishops that is their casting out unconforming Brethren commonly known in their Court language by the name of Schismaticks and Hereticks Quaere 1. If the Bishops did practice the casting out the Non-conforming Brethren wâ—itner ought any such practice to be taken up by the Non-conforming Brethren against Brethren now not Conforming to them 2. If all the Non-conforming Brethren were in their Court-language Hereticks and Schismatick whether ought not such names to be sent packing to Court again rather then taken up by the same Brethren who were so much called so themselves Hereticks and Schismaticks that they have taken it up against others 24. Heresies and Schism harsh words But we had hoped the refusall of the use of a Ceremony should never have been equalized in the punishment either to Heresie or Schisme Quaere If you hoped that the refusall of a Ceremony would not have been punished with Heresie and Scâ—ism from Bishops may not your Brethren hope much more from you that their dissenting from you in things of outward Cognizance and Form as Church Order and Baptism would not be so branded for Heresie and Schisme by you who glory in a more Gospell-way as as you were branded yourselves of late 25. Heavie censures for Non-conformity I am sure above the crime of the Remonstrant Non-conforming Brethren who are unsetled in poynts of a meane difference which their usuall language knowns by no betterâ— terme then Schismaticks and factions yet even such as have fallen under the heaviest censures of Excommunication deprivation suspentioâ— c. Quaere 1. Why was it such a crime to count any Schismaticks and factious under Prelacy and
through Presbytery and Independency will soone gird themselves to battle in those Notions and we shall never want enough of Presbytery and Independency till they undo us after our own fashion and if they cannot kill us as Cavaliers and Malignants in this new way they may kill us as Presbyters and Independents And surely they will have so much Iesuitisme as never to let us starve for Hereticks and Schismaticks the Iesuits run commonly over to the Lutherans and raile there against Calvinists and so they never want matter for division in Germany it is the great design of Conclaves and Popish Councels to practice upon States in their own religions and customes and to turne us back into Popery by being Protestants amongst us and to raise up new troubles by changing the old and by transfiguring their enmity Satan himselfe can be an Angell of light when he cannot passe as a power of darknesse and where works he thus but in the children of disobedience And Brethren let us not let our enemies in at back-doâ—res of Presbytery and Independency let us not undo our selves when God would save us let us see that these workings are but the old designe in a new Forme The last reason is People are not wholly undeceived in their present Ministers And to that end consider 1. That these Ministers who tell them thus and preach thus are neither as Aaron was nor as the Prophets were nor as the Apostles were nor have such an infallible gift nor spirit of discerning so as their words and Sermons are no more to be beleeved then the words of the Scripture proves and people are to trie all and to trie spirits and so trust and now friends not beleeve Sermons too suddenly because their Sermons are not very Scripture but interpretation to their light and light may be darkned with carnall reason and interest 2. That these Ministers who preach so for Presbytery through bloud and persecution now did but a few yeers since preach as confidently for the Service-book for Bishops or against the Presbytery our Brethren of Scotland 3. That these Ministers that preach nothing but Presbitery Government and Divine Right yet never tryed it in their lives nor lived in the experience of it but have it by report and by Idaea or modell or Landship from other Countreys and some specious Scriptures 4. That these Ministers who would presse the Covenant against Popery and Episcopacy root and branch yet will be content though Bishops be unlawfull to say the Bishops hands which ordained them are not and that Bishops could make them Ministers of Christ though they were Antichrist themselves and that Episcopacy could make a lawfull Ministery 5. That these Ministers who preached against Deanes and Archdeacons and Prelates as unlawfull can be content very well with their maintenance their tythes are not popish nor the profits nor revenues are not against Covenant people look a little into these men that hold there is no popery in any thing that makes them rich or maintaines them is this the doctrine of the crosse and selfe-deniall 6. That these Ministers who preached against Pluralities yet now a mastership of a Colledge and a great Living or two of some hundreds a yeer with Chaplainships as they commonly have and two or three great Lectures in conjunction with a great Living is not Plurality nor must be accounted so Nay for a Presbyter to have two livings is no plurality now but for a Prelate to have them is undoubtedly so By the same tenure the Prelates formerly lived at Court and in Lords houses and held Livings as they in the Assembly now by their attendance there 7. That these Ministers who pretend to so much light and certainty of truth yet after two yeers reasoning and proofe have not been able to prove their way of Government from Scripture so as there are so many excellent Quaeries propounded from the Honourable Parliament which lye unanswered unlesse the Ministers intend to resolve the Parliament some other way by making the tumults more and their answers lesse for their books and Sermons speak no lesse Was ever Reformation but where the Red Dragon is in the Pulpit preached for in so much bloud and I pray friends are all things so true as they tell you our greatest and wisest Counsell can see no such thing in it yet and since you expect your Government from the Parliament I pray go not before them in your judgements but stay and examine as they do 8. That the mystery of the Popish Ministery hath ever been to lead the people and stir up the people either by merit or martyrdome or ministery and therefore the poore soules of England had given away all their Lands once to Monks and Friers and would all fight for the Holy Land and the Kings and Princes their power to do with as they pleased and all was as the Priest said for Religion too all as the Holy Church said and now merit martyrdome and ministery carry all before them yet in some measure though not in so much England hath seen so much as to take much of their lands again and Tythes again from the Ministery and the Parliaments have seen so much as a little to debate Religion with the Synods and this Parliament hath seen more by how much they have reasoned disputed quaeried with their Ministers When did ever England see so much liberty before when durst Parliaments talke with their Ministers till now And friends let not the old Popish things of merit martyrdome and ministery carry us away as they did I remember an excellent saying reported of Generall Lesley to our Nobles and Gâ—ntry when they were ready to fight for Bishops to this purpose Shall we lose our bloud for so many fat Swingers And I pray are not these the Sons of the Swingers according to ordination ordained and called by Bishops Is our bloud too good for Bishops and not for Presbyters as some think 9. That these Ministers who seem to close with those whom they so lately called and preached against as Malignants and Cavaliers yet cannot love them or use them otherwise then in designe to help up with the Government and then leave them und persecute them under the same Notion with us as Hereticks using them now as the Israelites did the Gibeonites as hewers of wood and drawers of water and then what will become of these poore soules who having helped up the Presbyters into the roome of the Bishops to be sure they shall neither have Common-prayer-book nor Surplice nor Bishops nor Sacraments for the Directory shall keep out the Common-Prayer-book and Presbyters shall keepe out Bishops and Elders shall keep out all Communicants of such and such sins and Vniformity will keep out Conformity And if ye hope for better by the bustle and differences and sideings Issues and successe are in Gods hand not in ours Ye may know when ye begin but not when ye end and they will be first in
gifts which it alwaies had and they are joyned both in the Word and practice as in Heb. 6. 1. Doctrine of Baptisms and Laying on of hands and in their practice they were joyned as in act Act. 8. 14. 15 16. And it will appeare in the Word that the Apostles did not so reckon of them single but together as in Act. 8. 14 15 16. where it is said they were only Baptized in the Name of the Lord Jesus but they prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Ghost So as Baptism by water and by the Holy Ghost being joyned together both in Institution Doctrine and Practice are not to be separated nor given in such a time wherein that of the Holy Ghost is not given For what God hath joyned together let no man put asunder 11. That it is as unreasonable to take any such Ordinance of Jesus Christ from any that is not distinctly specially spiritually powerfully enabled as the first dispensers as it is to take the word of any common man charging us in the name of the Parliament and cannot visibly make out a visible Excellency and Supremacy of power by Ordinance or Commission 12. That these Churches who enjoy Christs mind as they think most fully in the practice oâ— Ordinances yet have no greater gifts in their Churches then there are in those called Independent or Separatist Prayer Teaching Prophesying being as fully and powerfully performed in the one as the other And being so Whether must not the Churches of Christ be distinguished by some more visible glorious power and gifts as at first by which they may be discerned to excell all other Societies 13. That the fulnesse of time is not yet come for Ordinances For as there were severall seasons for the givings out of Truth before so now Seeking or Seekers So called What their Way is and what they hold THat there is no Church nor Ordinances yet That if they did not end with the Primitive or Apostles times yet they are to begin as in the Primitive times with gifts and miracles and that there is as much reason for the like gifts to make out the Truth of any of the Gospell now to an Antichristian estate as formerly to a Jewish or Heathenish That such a Belever as can dispence Ordinances must be qualified as the Beleevers in Mark 16. and as the former Disciples were That there is a time and fulnesse for the Spirit and for the latter pure spirituall dispensations as there was formerly for the first dispensations And whether this shall be while the Angels are but powring out their Vials or not or when Babilon is fallen And whether there is not as much need for new Tongues to reveale the pure Origionall to us it being conveyed with corruptions and additionals in Translations by which Truth may be more purely discovered and the waters of Life that now run muddily may flow more cleare and Crystal-like from the Throne of God The Exceptions 1. THat Jesus Christ did promise to be ever with his Church and therefore cannot be reasonably presumed to leave them without Church and Ordinances 2. That if Scriptures were not so pure and cleere to us as the Word of Life were not sufficiently there God were lesse gracious to us now under Grace and Christ come in the flesh then before to the Jews who gave them a Book of the Law which remained with them to the coming of the Messiah 3. That such gifts and miracles were rather for bringing the Word into the world and for glorifying Christs first coming in the flesh then for after 4. That if we must have miracles to make us beleeve and not beleeve any truth till then we must have for every Truth as well as for one or two a miracle to give it evidence and so there must be a continuall and new miracle working for every new beleeving 5. If there must be miracles for beleeving Truth is not of that excellent nature that it seems for if it be not able to make it selfe evident and cast a native and spirituall f shine or brightnesse upon that soule it comes into it is but weake dark and insufficient 6. If Truth be not discernable in it self by its own glorious lightsome nature by beames from it self it is of a worse condition then many things below as the Sun and Stars and Candles c. which bring that light in their own nature and dispensation by which they are discerned 7. If every Truth be a became of Christ the truth then every beame hath light in it selfe because it streams from the fountaine of light and so is discernable 8. That it is more glorious to take evidences from the Spirit then from any thing without which can at the farthest of it self but convince the outward man 9. That all shall now in the last times be in a secret invisible inward spirituall glory no more in grosse carnall visible evidences and materiall beams as gifts miracles And this is to know Christ no more after the flesh 10. No miracles can in their own nature make one beleeve without a spirituall conviction from the Spirit of Christ going along with it so as we see when miracles were wrought some beleeved and some beleeved not So as then there is no such reason for miracles as pretended because that conviction which comes from the Spirit through the work of a miracle may come by any other instrumentall or originall way Or it is a more glorious operation by how much more single or by way of immediate revelation it works 11. To beleeve meerly by the Spirit is far more glorious then by any other outward means though never so outwardly glorious by how much the Spirit is more excellent then any thing else by so much more divine and spirituall are the impressions of it 12. That when miracles are wrought yet a pretender may work a miracle for the contrary like the Sorcerers of Egypt against Moses and Antichrist is spoken on rather to come with signes and wonders of the two then Christ So as here shall be a losse to any that think to beleeve meerly by miracle So as the Spirit is that which must make us beleeve beyond all the power of miracle which can give out its power but upon the sense at farthest being meerly outward and visible 13. That there is no such power for Ordinances as is pretended but Beleevers as Disciples may administer and so did the Apostles and Beleevers formerly as they were Disciples 14. That the Scriptures of the Gospell or New Testament are of such a divine and even Spirituall glory in the Letter as no other word There is a power to discover the reason and secrets of the heart which the reason and heart of man witnesses unto There is a power to convince and accase and terrifie and comfort clearly and undeniably and
their art reason knowledge experience into books and words written to their owne and other generations 9. This Gospell of Iesus Christ places Religion upon a more glorious transcendent way to sute with an infinite God then ever any device of man or reason could invent viz. upon faith upon a beleeving or spirituall perswasion wrought by the same God by which men are carried out into depths of infinitenesse and glory no way measurable nor discernable but by this way of beleeving and there could never have been an engine contrived which could have gone from man into God but this of faith by God himself nor more for the advantage of the glory of a God taking all from the creature employing it wholly upon a God 10. There is more reason in this Gospell or New Testament in the way of Religion which it holds forth by Iesus Christ then ever could be thought on by the reason of man as for instance Each mans internall conscience hath a light or law in it which condemnes or accuseth for murther c. Now if there be accusations against whom is the offence committed but against somthing infinite and what way is there more divinely rationall to apply to the justice of such an infinite being on God offended but by one who is both man and God even Iesus Christ So as the mystery of salvation is such as even reason it self cannot contradict or gainsay though it cannot comprehend to leave the world inexcusable in their unbeliefe because it commands them to beleeve in one whom in reason they cannot deny to be a way proportionable betwixt God and themselve for salvation 11. It carries things in such a rare way of mercy of justice of love of piety and as it is a salvation from God to man so it is a salvation managed by one who is God and Man and every thing belonging to it is accordingly mixed or tempered of Word and Spirit of power divine and outward dispensation or ordinance and all this for man who is of a mixed nature of flesh and spirit Thus things are carried in a way of proportion and sutablenesse so full so sutable and compleat and serviceable as the invention of men could never devise 12. It discovers reason to it self in all its workings and wayes in its purity and corruption in its vertues and vices conscience bearing witnesse to the Laws and Commandements of it it purifies and spiritualizeth reason and brings it into such a way of communion with God as the souls that reade it and are exercised in it seem to be new-borne to receive in another nature an immortall and incorruptible seed 13. It manages all the designe of salvation contrary to nature and the world upon contrary principles dispensations and hands by a Person poore humble and crucified for the good by Ministers and Dispensers meane and contemptible Fisher-men Tradesmen c. yet inspired by graces contrary as selfe-deniall humility love to enemies by conditions contrary as weaknesse affliction poverty suffering dying carrying a treasure a comfort a riches a life a glory under all these 14. It is accompanied by continued or standing miracles though miracles of a more spirituall nature as discovery of the counsels and hearts of men as conversion from sin mortification of sin changing natures from evill to good planting in new dispositions inclinations affections into the soul Now if such charges and conversions were in materiall or sensible things as from water to bloud from water to wine how would it astonish Which in spirituals in more wonderfull though only lesse discernable and not to be so sensibly perceived preserved by its very enemies the Roman cruelty of Emperours and Antichristian Traditions 15. It refers the discovery of all Truth in it self to the Spirit of God which no word but the Word of God would do and will not take in men into glory with it self which miracles do which are done by the hand and ministry of man and the Spirit in this way must needs be a more glorious Interpreter of the Will of God then the meer ministery by man and miracles can be by how much it is of a more spirituall nature and it is more excellent to seek things in the Spirit then in any outward dispensation which as it comes more immediately from God so it comes in more immediately upon men and to take in Truth by sense and sight or miracle is rather to know Christ after the flesh 16. Yet after all the Word it self is the best way to bring in evidence and discovery in its 〈◊〉 half to the souls of those that will come under the power â—peâ—atâ—on and experiments of it under the enlightening convictions impressions of it in the reading hearing and meditating of it These things are written that ye may beleeve And they that are thus exercised are above all miracle and are perswaded enough by it self without the help of an outward work 17. To these I adde the testimonies of the most ancient in witnesse of it Dionysius Areopagita thought to live in the times of the Apostles and not daring to take his Divinity any where but from these Scriptures Irenaeus who was in the yeare 180 affirming the fulnesse of these Gospell-Scriptures and accounted them the Pillar of Truth So Tertullian who lived 1400 years since doth accordingly witnesse to their perfection Origen Athanasius Chrysostome Constantine the Great in the first Nicene-Councell with thousands others all along to our own age 18. The Iewes whose very Testament and condition answers to every Prophesie and Gospel-Scripture 19. The many of those most eminently ancient learned and godly who have shed their bloud in testimony of it 20. The power of God going along with it 21. The Confessions of the most learned in that confesse that the Originall Copies are not corrupted but continued pure One Argument from the Nationall Covenant for Liberty of Conscience yet with all subordinate and just obedience to the State ART I. THe first Branch of the Covenant is That we shall sincerely really and constantly c. endeavour c. the Reformation of Religion in the Kingdoms of England c. in Doctrine Worship Discipline and Government according to the Word of God c. ART II. The second Branch of the Covenant That we shall in like manner without respect of persons endeavour the extirpation of Popery c. Superstition Heresie Schism c. and whatsoever shall be found contrary to sound Doctrine c. Now from these I argue 1. Each one is personally and individually bound by the Covenant and in his owne proper conscience is obliged to endeavour a Reformation according to the Word of God and so far to the example of the best Reformed Churches as they are agreeable to that Word I hope no further Now who shall be the Iudge and Interpreter of this Word of God to each mans conscience in the things of God but he who is Lord of the conscience
â—ut wish one of your experience and abilities like Pant to preach for that Truth which before he destrayed Our hearts desire and prayer should be for any of Israel And for that you say of me in your Observation that I am rather opiniâ—native then passionate I cannot take it so ill from you that will needs be no enemy to me I interpret any thing from such a one on the better side of it But I shall allow you your liberty as my self And if the truth of God may more abound through my opinion as you take it unto his glory I have enough Master Ley's Resolution Page 4 5. I wonder he who hath writ a whole Booke of Policie should be so unpolitick as to think it seasonable since it tends to retard the establishment of Government whereto the Parliament is so much ingaged by Declaration c. by Solemne League and Covenant Art 1. already setting it up in Ordinance for Ordination c. Though the liberty of speaking lengthens the Debates and delayes the Votes c. and so much the more because they are more in number then we and because their determinations are finall as ours are not Answer For some things in my Book of Policy I praise the Lord I can looke on them as on part of the darknesse I was in And I can freely joyne with any in censuring any unregenerate part in me as I esteem much of my carnall reason to be When I was a childe I spake as a childe neither have I any fruit now as the Apostle sayes of some of those things Nor would I have any goe thither for direction but so far as they find Scripture or sound Reason I cannot but give a Caution concerning this Booke because I would have Readers to looke on any thing from me as Luther speaks of himself as I receive in light And me thinks I scarse doe any thing which I could not with Augustine when it is done find something to retract in it either somthing is too dead or too darke or too carnall Thus you see I willingly help you against my selfe and I account it a part of my condition here not to see all at once For the unseasonablenesse of my Quere you alleadge the Declaration of Parliament and the Covenant in Art 1. wherein they are ingaged to endeavour Reformation and the Ordinances c. Now where is my unseasonablenesse The Parliament is endeavouring c. May I contribute my moneyes my vote my paines my informations to the Civill ingagements and not my notions to the Spirituall Are we not to bring in all our disbursements either Naturall Civill or Spirituall into that publike Treasury Though you of the Assembly cast in of your abundance may not the poore ones cast in their mite Are we not by the same Covenant bound to discover any thing against God and the State and the glory and peace of both And if I find my conscience perswading me such or such a thing is not accordingly ought I not by all the Obligatious that are upon me of Gospell Parliament and Countrey peaceably and meekly to speak a word May we discover any thing to the State we conceive of malignity or danger in Civill things and not in Spirituals Is not the Spirituall or soul-liberty the more glorious liberty of the Subject We cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard saith the Apostle And What you heare in the eare that speake you on the house top saith Christ We know who it was that said Prophesie not here for it is the Kings Chappell And for things of a Spirituall nature we are allowed almost the fulnesse of time for season Be instant in season and out of season saith Paul But What better season could I come in then such a one wherein things were but ripening and moving towards establishment Where nothing is setled there can be nothing disturbed Where nothing is concluded there can be nothing repelled Where nothing is established there can be nothing disordered But since you put me to a further account I shall give it My Spirit was not my own so wholly then but his I hope whose motion I obeyed the Lords Such breathings of Heaven who dare safely quench It is as fire in the bones saies the Prophet and like that of Mordecai If thou altogether hold thy peace at this time c. And whereas you say that the Parliaments determinations are finall That holds better for me who might have spoken to much lesse purpose had I stayed till all had been done and the determinations ended and become finall sure it was time then to speak before determinations were final or never and by your own account too for you are pleased to reckon up the proceedings of State in the businesse of Religion which are such as had I stayed I had had a worse season however as the Prophet saies I have delivered my soule they were you know the foolish virgins that came not with their oyle till the doore was shut Whatever my Oyle or my Lamp was yet I think it not agreeable to the wisdom of that Parable to come and knock only when the doore is not open Master Ley's Resolution page 6 7 and 8. The title of the Quere is baited with Truth and Peace He a private Divine to put such a Quere both of State and Religion and to suggest such a suspition of hast and to tax the Ministers for putting in for a power not consonant to Scriptures and Prudence c. His rendring the originall word metaphorically His artificiall colours Rhetoricall c. And my marshalling his reasons in a right method Reply I have gathered up into one bundle your pieces of a lighter concernment I would not stay tything Annise and Cummin but I hasten to the weightier matters of the Law A word only to each For baiting my Quere with Truth and Peace you allude to Christ's allegory that we are fishers of men and if I have no worse things to bait with then these two Truth and Peace none need I hope be afraid of the hooke And for the proof of them both argument and time will evidence For me a private Divine to put a Quere of State and Religion What were John Hus Wickliff Luther Paphnutius who in their severall ages gave out their testimonies They were but single men compared with Councels and Synods Not that I would compare with them who am lesse then the least of all the mercies of God yet they were but single though singular men And what if a private Divine Jesus Christ may bid a private man stand and speake to the people There is a Law of the Spirit commands to speake as well as the Law of a State and though you speak by the later Law another may speak by the former And what though a Quere both of Religion and State Is not our Covenant mixt accordingly of Religion and State Doth not the State
sincerely executed The Romans had a very moral people under their Yoke when their laws were well executed Prelacy and Bishops had a Government which was Antichristian yet by an exact execution could chastise the outward man in some measure For your other reason That my Texts make against not only the suspending for a time but for ever I answer It is true Principles and circumstances considered For if neither the Government be Christs nor the people Nationally a Church when can you settle it And if there be no Gospell-promises that people shall fall in so nationally as the Iews did excepting some that concerne the world in general as Isai 49. 22. then how or when will you settle or what will you settle or upon whom And for the Texts you commend to me for preaching 1 Thes 5. 12. c. they all concern peoples obedience to their Elders and Rulers they are very materiall and pertinent to that And I shall in requitall commend some other backe to you as those of not lording it over the Heritage Against preeminence as helpers of your faith of service and ministery We are your servants we entreat you and beseech you not seeking our own things not for filthy lusre but of a ready mind c. We must consider Scripture must be taken in the wholenesse and entirenesse of it and we must not only mind people of their obedience but Elders and Ministers of their service duty Ministery humility self-deniall c. And thus in a just distribution deale out both to Ministers and people their measure Master Ley's Resolution page 12. Strange that he should plead for a delay in establishing of Reformation from the Covenant wherein we are bound to endeavour it sincerely really c. and more strange under the title of Popery too which in the next Article of Popery is disavowed Reply Not so strange as you make it for we are covenanted to endeavour a setting up the Government not a Government that is as it is expounded in the Article the Government or Reformation according to the Word of God c. not a Government or Reformation of any other sort So as I plead for a delay only in setting up a Discipline not the Discipline or more plainly that the Discipline be such that the covenanters may not violate that Article wherein they are bound to do every thing according to the Word and so prove unfaithfull in their covenant while they are most zealous for it There was such a kind of mistake in the Jews who would have stoned the Lord of the Sabbath in zeale to the Sabbath and following after righteousnesse yet did not attain to the righteousnesse of God And for the title of Popery which I put upon such obedience which you say cannot be because discovered in the next Article of the Covenant I answer The Popery is not in the covenant but in the Interpretations upon it and the mistaken practice of it which is the thing I only aver O! How soon may we be Popish under a Covenant against it What are the maintenance of Ministers by Tythes Jewish and Popish undeniably and yet no notice of this at all I had as great a Tythe once as another but I could not hold it so neither by Covenant nor Gospell Nor do I taxe the Parliament but those who are betrusted to commend Spirituall grievances to their Senate c. Brethren let us lay down these grievances Countries and Famalies are burdened Let not the Ministers have their hooks abroad in every thing of the peoples like Elies sons We know the Kingdoms of Scotland and the Netherlands take their Tythes to maintain their wars and will not let their preachers live by decimation bur by pension And methinks you that professe ingenuity should be so candid to distinguish where you see I distinguish and not to force on constructions of this nature which neither any thing of mine nor the Covenant will beare And for what you say concerning the composers and penners of the Covenant I am willingly silent I would not aggravate any thing against a Brother as you are which might be only a failing in your Pen. Master Ley's Resolution pag. 12 13. For that he saith of peoples implicite obedience c. of their being devoted to any thing the State sets up by Statutes cannot be for these reasons Because as in the former Reason Instruction must go before Because for that of their being devoted it makes against setting up Doctrine as well as Discipline and Authority of Parliament as well as Authority of Ministery They not Ministers make Statutes Reply To your first That instructions must go before I have answered to this before as you expounded it before One word more will suffice What kind of instruction is it you mean but authoritative compulsive instruction such as the Schoolmasters even your own instance and here most pertinent who teaches and whips every one of those that will not understand as well as he Something an unreasonable way of correction in matters of pure beleefe and conscience and best amongst boys as your instance implies Men of Scripture-consciences cannot beare it And for that you say it makes against Doctrine as well as Discipline Yea in some sort it is granted for neither Doctrine nor Discipline ought to be forced but in a Gospell-way And for that you say it makes against the Parliament because they make Statutes I answer Nothing makes against a Legislative power which reduces it to ruder and clearer and free Principles And thus the Parliament very justly argues in all their Remonstrances touching the King while they go about to reduce him to his just Rights from those exorbitances he suffers himselfe to be brought into For instance He that wishes the Parliament might only proceed in a way not grieving the Spirit nor hazzarding the persecution or Truth nor oppressing any Gospell-principle to which they are covenanted not keeping on in any sin of former Parliaments of severe imposing in matters of Religion so controvertible Is not he I say that so wishes a better friend to Parliaments Laws and Statutes then those of contrary Principles Nay I must professe that to me that very one Article of Reforming to the Word of God most providentially inserted is an Article of Caution both against imposing and punishing lest through want of a cleare discerning we be found violaters of that we covenant to maintain and ought to be sadly considered by all Master Ley's Resolution page 12 13. His second reason of experience That the speedy setling c. takes little root but in the outward man c. concluding pathetically Why do not daies speak and multitude of years teach knowledge In answer 1. That the fault was not in over-speedy setling but in the choyce of a wrong Government 2. Because the Doctrine goeth on with Discipline and so the power of the Word may go deep into the conscience as a Schoolmaster who teaches and corrects 3.
Because the Discipline is an hedge or wall about the Doctrine a goad to the Means of Grace a curb to licentious courses though with many it go but to the outward man that is not to be imputed to the Discipline but their corruptions c. 4. Because where the Discipline hath been rightly chosen and setled God hath blessed it with better fruits as in Scotland where there is no Heresie nor Schism c. 5. For that of Elihu in Job Why do not daies speak c. it makes not for his purpose but that Wisdom is with the ancient and gray-headed to be heard before young or green-headed Counsellors c. Reply To your first That the fault was in the choyce of a wrong Government c. I answer That is the feare now least there should be a choyce of a wrong Government and so the same fault should be committed again And this very Government hath no Image of Divine Right upon it nor hath it warrant in all things from the Word as your self acknowledge To your second That Doctrine and Discipline go together c. Yea pure Doctrine and pure Discipline go rightly together and if either be impure or unsound there is so much the more danger So as this is an Argument rather against you because where Doctrine opens the conscience and lets in any thing of Discipline but that of the pure Word there is one evill only mended with another And for your instance of a Schoolmaster who both teaches and corrects You know we are not to prove but to illustrate by similitudes And that of a Schoolmaster is a fitter illustration for the Pedagogie of the Law and that Discipline then the Gospels You know the Apostle uses it only to that The Law was our Schoolmaster c. Gal. 3. To that of your description of the Government that it is a curb a goad c. I answer There is nothing you say of Government in these words but may be said of any civill Government nay of Prelacy when it was in its primitive form But that only which you ought to say and that which only differences it from all devised forms of men as your Covenant binds you and ought to be your only reason for erecting and setting it up is this Is it the Scriptures form or model Is the people so in the exercise and capacity of it as in the Gospell times If so then you prove something And further All this you say is true in a kind too of Christs Government but yet in some sort communicable with devised Governments The only distinguishing and essentiall marks are not to be a curb and goad but the Scriptures only mark and image and some spirituall operations c. which no other devised form of man hath To your other of the blessings and blessed fruits in Scotland that there is no Heresie nor Schism there Let Master Coleman our learned and pious Brother speak for us both from his experiences And for that Kingdom time will shew whether it will prove to be a blessing or no to want that which you call Heresie or Schism Surely to be free from Heresie and Schism in a Scripture sense it is such a blessing as the whole Gospell cannot patern What No Heresie in a whole Kingdom No Schism in a whole Kingdom Never such a pure Church heard on Corinth Ephesus Colosse Jerusalem Antioch all not comparable The worst I wish our Brethren there is that all were so pure as we heare on Indeed Scotland had the honour to awaken us first in the work of Reformation and Liberty but lest Scotland should be puffed up England shall have the glory I hope to improve that liberty to a fuller light which some would close up too soon in the narrownesse of a Presbytery Methinks there is something of this nature considerable in the Lutherans who though they follow the first Light in Germany yet the Lord hath suffered them to stick there without a fuller Reformation that the first may be last and the last be first For if a State be covenanted so close to the Word they had need be favourable and free to all that are accordingly covenanted for each mans conscience is the Interpreter in himself of what makes for or against the Covenant he takes and by this very Covenant you are all to be tender to consciences because the Spirit of God not power of men can intterpret the Will of God but in their civill and prudentiall things only they may interpret themselves To that of Job That with the ancient is wisdom and with the gray-headed which you apply in way of reproach to the younger whom you call as it were green-heads I answer That the elder I esteem as fathers and the younger we know are such in whom the Lord speaks more gloriously as he himselfe saith Your young men shall see visions and upon your sons and daughters I will powre out my Spirit your old men shall dream dreams Now whether is it more excellent to dream dreams or to see visions The Lord delivered Israel by the young men of the Provinces Surely we may more safely hearken to the younger that see visions of Reformation then to the elder that dream dreams of it only Master Ley's Resolution pag. 15 16. There is great disproportion of times Men were then converted from Paganism and while they were so they were uncapable Our Congregations in England are professed Christians and though there be many not so wrought on by the Word c. That is rather a reason for the establishment of it Ezek. 22. 26 1 Cor. 4. 21. Prov. 23. 13 14. Nor can Sabbath nor Sacraments be administred without it Reply To that of the disproportion you speak on of times and conversion c. I answer The Apostle's and Primitive times are the times we are to looke at for a patern and modell 'T is true there is great disproportion for they were Apostles who gave the government then yet are but private Divines as you say by me if you be compared with them For that of the conversion from Paganism to Christianity There is no such disproportion there neither but that very proportion which our Saviour hath himself foretold and set forth For how doth a Iewish and Antichristian State differ Nay how doth a Heathenish or Paganish State differ from an Antichristian or Parochiall State as Parochiall or Parish is in that notion Christ hath put them that are out of the Church under that very notion Matth. 19. 17. and the spirit in the Revelation makes the Antichristian State to be as unlawfull as a Paganish and cals out equally from that as from the other as by comparing 2 Cor. 6. 17. Rev. 18. 4. together will appeare So as speaking of things and notions I cannot but speake in a Scripture way nor am I uncharitable in this neither though I thus speak I looke on thousands in this State as godly beleevers It is not the
his bloud and which he hath promised to drink with us new in his Fathers Kingdome Nor will the wine be alwayes new to those that are renewed as they ought to be indeed for your Parishes which you call old Bottles I am sure the wine or pure government is too new for them Nor will the Bottles be older as you say the longer the government is delayed if the power of the Word be there for renewing them But you say What sense is this What logicall connexion I answer that shall appear there is sense enough and connexion enough and Logike enough though I had rather have more Scripture and lesse Logike for all I aim at is what the Scripture aims at that the bottles should be fit for the wine the necks for the yoke and the subjects for the commands Master Ley's Resolution Page 23 24. To that of his That Jesus Christ could as easily have set up his government by miracle had there been such a primary c. necessity c. 1. The acts and times for divine Providence towards his Church are various God had his Church at first and no written Word for it till the Law was writ and Moses wrote c. And God added to the morall Lawes ceremoniall and judiciall divers of which were not executed till forty yeares after at their comming into Canaan so far ws God beforehand 2. Whereas he saith Christ could as easily have setled the government by miracle we grant it yea and more without a miracle and yet more that he did so in Mat. 16. 19. John 10. 23. Mat. 18. 15 16 17. 3. If Christs delay of Government must be our example then as well for the Anabaptisticall delay of Baptism till his age Luke 3. 23. nor was it Johns office to set up a Government but to prepare the way c. And Christs publike Ministery lasted but foure yeares or three yeares and a half and he began then to set up Government Reply All your proof reaches but to this 1. That God dealt variously with his Church They had first no written Word and after a written Word 2. That Christ could have setled his Government by miracle but did not 3. That Christs delay of Government must be no more our example then his Baptisme My proofe was to shew there was no such morall necessity of the setling because it was not setled Now what have you overthrown here Not that Christ suspended his Government and the seâ—ling of it for that you grant with me and prove it more at large then I did so as all your rest will be answered in two particulars 1. To that of Gods Church and Government before his Word c. which you would insinuate as some advantage to your serling c. What is that to Gods dispensation now if there wanted a Word there was a supplement of vision and dreams c. And I hope you will not goe before the Law so much as you doe for a Patern You goe too far when you goe to the times of the Law You have a Prophet now to hear in all things Act. 3. 22 2. To that of Baptism to be delayed as well as Government from Christs example I cannot dispute that here Master Tomes will satisfie you at large in his learned Examen where he hath made work for a whole Assembly That he knowes not but it may be delayed till they be of years But to answer you in your scope You bring this to prove That Christ is not to be imitated in all things I grant it But what is that to prove that Christ setled not his Government when he began his Ministery or Iohns For the businesse on your part is to find out either that the Government was setled before or with the Ministery or there was as much necessity of it as of the Word but for some reason and not from any thing in the nature of the Government but some other extrinsicall reason it was delayed Which ought not to take place now And this is yet to prove all your proof summed up reaches not to this But you imply The will of God in his dispensations was the cause But the will of God in his dispensations carries a rule of righteousnesse along with it and of spirituall reason And in Gospell dispensations and extrinsicall proceedings of Gods will you will find a rule and golden reed of righteousnesse measuring the Temple and every dispensation and even this of suspending Government hath its rule in the Gospell that a word of obedience must precede and go before a forme of obedience and a word of faith before the obedience of faith and living stones before a living Temple Master Ley's Resolution Page 24 25. Whereas he saith the gifts for Government were not given till Christ ascended it is answered 1. That he ascended 43 dayes after his ministration and that added to the yeare forementioned makes but small difference c. 2. He put his Apostles upon neither of these offices preaching or governing without competent gifts an â—â—ualifications 3. For the modell of it which he saith people fell under as they were capable If he mean the written modell in the Word though it were young in Christs time or his Apostles yet not now we have had 1500 years siâ—câ— Why should that which is so old in constitution be thought too soone for execution And bisides Scripture directions we have many years the paterns of â—â— in many Reformed Churches 4. It hath by soft and slow degrees been brought in aâ— both in debates of Assembly Parliament c. And so sor execution â—â—â— First an Ordinance for Ordination and then a Directory c. Reply You prove here 1. That Christ gave gifts when he ascended and not any longtime in all his ministration and sending gifts 2. That he qualified â—â—s Apostles for government and preaching 3. That the government of Christ now so old should be seen set up as in other Kingdomes 4. That it proceeded by degrees in its setting up here Now all this thus gathered up proves not any thing against my assertion that Christ proceeded by degrees in his Ministery and giving out his government but rather strengthens my assertion And for your Arguments for setling implyed in these particulars 1. That Christs government was but a while in bringing forth the years considered 2. That the government in the Gospel being now so old might to be soone executed 3. That the Paterns of it are in other Reformed Churches I answer to all these in as few words 1. Prove your Argument first to be Christâ— the particulars and entirenesse accordingly and then I shall allow you your Argument but you grant it to be but partly Christs and partly the Assemblies or of Prudence 2. You must prove but the same againe that the government you have is the government there withall Gospel-necessaries take in else though the Gospel-government be never so old yours is but new and this Argument
hath it not a Jus divinum a Divine Right put upon it if all be of the Holy Ghost in it But I would not mistake you you say only that all is by the dictate of the Holy Ghost of the Assembly and Parliament So it is but part then by your own confession of the Holy Ghost the rest is of the Assembly and Parliament You say The builders have had speciall regard to Jesus Christ the Foundation I will not suspect the Counsels and Debates of any of the builders I know the Disciples of Christ were true Disciples though they had not all of the Spirit at one time which they had at another I hope and I pray that the Lord will make up to the builders what of the Spirit he hath not given them that they may both see to build right and see where they have builded wrong and so pull down againe as well as set up And whereas you say The building may go on by Master Saltmarsh his own consent I say your building will go on it seems whether Master Saltmarsh consent or no. Master Ley in his capacity is better able to put it on at this time then Master Saltmarsh is to put it off to another time unlesse the Lord who is above all and hath the mighty even the Princes of the earth to command work for his own glory above all that we can or think Master Ley's Resolution pag. 38 39 40. To the second Objection and Answer of Heresies and Schisms and so they might have done from Iohn's first Sermon he saith 1. Why doth he begin with Iohns first Sermon Were not the Esseans c. Hereticks and Schisma icks See Epiphanius c. 2. He makes Pauls Epistles the terminus ad quem which from John's first Sermon to the last make up Twenty nine yeers After the Epistles he brings in the sending the Spirit c. which was but five yeares after the first Sermon of John Baptist 3. Before the end of the Epistles that Government was not which we find in Scripture and if so the Church-Government was not long suspended 4. Nor would it prejudice our expedition People of that Age could not be so easily gathered as with us they may be 5. What was long in establishing in Primitive times cannot be said to be hastily done now after so many discussions and deliberate resolutions Reply You say first Why begin I for Hereticks and Schismaticks from John's first Sermon I begin there because there began the mystery of the Gospell And yet I shew you that no Government began with that Gospell manifestation by which I made appeare that if Government had been of such morall necessity why was it not given out with the Gospels first giving out Now you prove in a chronologicall discourse the space of time from Johns Sermon to Pauls Epistle to make the time appeare for Government And after you have summed up all the time and periods and find it no two or three yeers work you conclude People of that age could not be so easily gathered as now Nor the long establishing then to be an hasty establishing now And now after all this discourse and ravellings out of time from Johns Sermon c. What have you gained Not that the Government was soon setled Then you have proved much to my advantage and in a clearer and fuller computation then I did the contrary So as you have only been taking some learned paines if you well observe and the Reader well observe you to prove that the Government at first was not suddenly cast into modell nor brought forth in practise which is the very thing I aimed at and truly your pains in it have been more exact then mine and I thank you for it But you say It ought not to be so now nor can it be said to be hastily done now that was done so long ago You say true in that But you know the same Spirit must reveale it that formed it and it formed it at first by degrees and the way of Revelation hath been more year's then the first farming reckon but your Antichristian years as exactly as you have done your first Christian and Primitive yeares and you may be more satisfied So as all both the first Revelation of it from Prophesies and the latter from Antichristianism makes all for the not hastening which I aimed at Indeed if you can as infallibly assure us this forme and modell is the very forme then given out it were very true that you say That it cannot be said to be hastily done now what was done so long agoe viz. If it be that very one which was done so long ago For your exception against me concerning my placing the giving of the Spirit so late if you interpret sense by the strict order of words you will lose many a Scripture truth in the words as you well know Master Ley's Resolution Page 40 41. To that of Heresies c. he saith What if they do not ster up their Patrons against the State c. but they busily poyson the soules of the people and shall they if as Paul Best be suffered to blaspheme and reproach and perturb the publike Peace An Indulgence much like old Elies c. If Truth be not more precious then Peace why doth our Saviour say He came not to send peâ—ce And why do the Fathers contend so against the Arrians about a letter And why we so with the Romish Religion rather then be at peace with them For that of morall transgressions he would have the Magistrates set on Set on By whom We have not such meane thoughts of the Magistrate as to make mention of him in such terms of disparagement And for all his Disciplines regulating men for religious walking there will be worke enough for the Magistrate to bring them under civill tryall for câ—ntumaâ—ie c. Reply You say What If hereâ—ies stir not up they poyson souls If they poyson let the Gospel-antidote be applied then and no other way which the Gospell will not beare noâ— allow there is the sword of the Spirit and weapons not carnall but mighty and spirituall For that of old Elies indulgences which you speak on you are still looking upon Moses though you tell us of Christ Make the Kingdome of Israel and of England the same a Iewish and Christian State the same and then we shall allow you both Elies sin and his sons maintenance by tythes offerings You say Truth is more precious then peace yet there is a peace precious as well as Truth even the Peace of Christ as well as the Truth of Christ But to the businesse You would prove Truth to be precious to the disadvantage of Peace and therefore you bring in the Fathers against the Arrians and us against the Papists and Christ against Peace But what would you prove Would you prove that truth ought to be established against peace and peace to be no way to truth Surely truth and
of Master Goodwyns and Master Nye not so pleasant as true The Clergie had at first the golden ball of government amongst themselves and it is not much mended any where but in that Church where the people have their Interests as well as others they are the Clergie properly a notion which the Ministers got only to themselves till of late The interest of the people in Christs Kingdom is not only an interest of complyancy and obedience and submission but of consultation of debating counselling prophesying voting c. and let us stand fast in that liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free Presbytery it self is founded on Principles of separation which yet they condemn for Schism in other Churches nay is the greatest separation VVHat is a Presbytery over Congregations or a Congregation but a Church gathered out of a Church Nay is not that the only Church and the remainder of people made but an accessory or something of another kind or rather the Nation or Kingdom which is only subject to this power supream And though Presbytery be but a Church-gathering and founded on a Principle of seperation yet do they not disapprove and condemn seperation and semi or halfe-seperation and Church-gathering for Schism c When their own power is a Schism respectively to the Parishes that are distinct and whatever distinction is formed to make them appear as part of their Congregations yet is it indeed so Is not their whole power defended to be entirely essentially dispensatively in the Presbytery called by themselves the Church and by the very authority of one whom I name with reverence to his learning and moderation Master Herle So as I wonder why there should be such envyings raylings accusings dissentings betwixt us that are beleevers though of severall waies when as each is principled founded administred upon the same ground and way of Schism seperation and Church-gathering nay the Presbytery hath more Schism and separation in it then the rest by how much it is constituted from the people and Brethren and Acts in its ministration apart too viz. over the people rather then with them None to be forced under Christs Kingdom as in the Kingdoms of the world IN a Spirituall Government the ignorance of people which some would have for expedition that they may practically know it is no Scripture way of knowing in practicall godlinesse things must be known before practically known and practice is to begin from faith and faith from knowledge else the obedience can be but blind mixt and Popish Indeed in things civill or morall practice may bring in knowledge habits may be acquired and gotten by Acts a man may grow temperate by practising temperance and civilly obedient by practising civill obedience but it is not so in spirituals there habits go before acts spirituall infusions before practices Indeed the Laws of States and Kingdoms and Civill Policy teach men best by ruling them practically but it is not so in the Church men are not to be forced into Christs Kingdom as into the Kingdoms of the world the Kings of the Nations exercise their Dominion it shall not be so among you The power of a formall Râ—formation in a Government makes it not Christs Government A Government though not purely Christs may be made up of such Scripture and prudentiall materials as may much reform the outward man even as a meer prudentiall Civill-Government may do if severely executed The Romans by how much they excelled other Nations in Laws so much the more they excelled them in a people reformed moralized and civilized in many Civill States meerly from their wholsome Policy and administration excellent and precious flowers spring up many morall vertues as prudence temperance obedience meeknesse love justice fortitude Yet all this makes not a Government to be Christs but only that which is meerly the Discipline of Christ and Policie of Christ Prelacie in its Primitive time did reforme the beast like a lamb which compelled the Nations to Worship and made even fire to come down from Heaven or was religious in the eyes of men and did miracles yet was no true nor heavenly Power neither There are certain parts and degrees of Reformation common and communicable with the Government of Christ and other Governments but then there is a forme and Image of Christ in it which no others have and some certain spirituall operations and workings which exceed the power of all other Governments and this makes the difference and puts on the essentiall true and individuall forme upon it so as in choyce of Governments they are not to be chosen by some Summer fruit in the outward man but by the Word and Spirit The visible Church or Communion is the Image of the invisible or mysticall THe invisible or mysticall Church is made up of pure living stones all is spirituall and yet all not spirituall in the like kind nor degree Jesus Christ the corner stone is both God and man and some of his differ in glory as one Star differs from another and as it is here in this spirituall invisible glorious building so it is in the outward visible Communion below or building here which is the Image of that above The Temple here is acording to the Patern there and as that is of true reall essentially spirituall living stones so the Church here is to consist of such as visibly formally and outwardly appeare so and therefore called Saints and golden Candlesticks and holy Natio c. And though all the materials in this building are to be proportionable and pure to make up a representative of the Church above yet all is not of one square and measure and polishing some are greater and some lesse some Babes and children in Christ some smoaking Flax and bruised Reeds And as this Church bears the Image of the heavenly so the mateâ—â—â—ll one bore the Image of this there was pâ—ne stones gold and Cedar so as there is room in the Church now for any small stone or the least peece of timber if it be but lively or squared if Cedar or Firrâ— How Christ is a King of the Nations and of the Church and how an Head CHrist is a King to the Nations and to the Church nor doth he rule the Nations as the Church nor the Church as the Nations he rules ministerially in his Church and Monarchically in the Nations he rules with a goldâ—n Scepter in his Church with an iron Rod in the Nations Nor doth Christ rule as the Kings of the Nations who finding people rude barbarous uncivill subdue them into obedience and civility but so doth not Christ in his Church that we know on the dispenâ—ation of his Word not of the Government first â—ubdues And it is true Christ is an Head but not an Head to every body he will have a body proportionable to his Head both here and hereafter in earth as well as in heaven he is a pure holy glorious Head in his Gospel-dispensation and
the first working of it upon the Magistrates hath noâ— a design for strengthening their own interest by the Magistracy of the Kingdoms and how have Kingdoms been embroyled for the serving of this designe and whether is not this guilded with the glorious name of Reformation Consid 8. Let it be considered from the severall waies and Formes of proceeding in which the beleevers of severall opinions have gone in these times to support themselves which stands most on a pure Gospel spirituall bottom supported by its own innate â—ongeniall and proper strength clasping about no stones no pillars of the world or humane strength Consid 9. Let it be considered whether the whole cry of the Divines of the other party as in the late Book is not all to the Magistrate Help us Parliament help us City or we are undon the Heresies and Sects will undo us What said Ezra I was ashamed saith he to require of the King an army and horsemen to help us against the enemy in the way because we had said the hand of our God is upon all them that seek him Consid 10. Let it be considered whether they whom he cals Hereticks and Schismaticks make it one of their choycest Principles to desire the Magistrate to help their opinions with their prisons fines pillories but rather that they would let them alone to stand and fall by the power or weaknesse of their Gospell principles and that they may have liberty to pray for them pay to them and possesse the Gospell Each opinionst ted briefly respectively to Toleration Let it be considered to what each pretended Heresie will amount to Independency INdependents beleeve that since the Parishes are so generally corrupted the Churches ought to consist of those of them only that professe more purely as they find Scripture Rule and Practice and as the Presbyterians themselves many of them practice in some Ordinances as that of Baptism and Supper giving them only to the purest Beleevers They also beleeve that they ought not be a few Ministers and Elders of the Churches to bring all the Churches and Congregations under their Power and Dominion but rather under under their advice and consultation Quaere Because then they practice to meet more purely and to rule lesse one over another whether is this enough that they should be fined imprisoned banished The Anabaptists THe Anabaptists so called they hold that Beleevers ought only to be baptized and that Baptisme ought to be so for the manner as may set forth Christs Death Buriall and Resurreâ—â—ion by water as the Greek word and Apostles practice seems to imply and some of the ablest Divines both of England and the great Adversaries the Papists themselves deny not and for children they read of none the Apostles Baptized and they see not any Scripture cleere enough to warrant and they therefore forbeare Quaere Because they will not practice then what is not cleere in command and confessed by all to be but in hidden consequence because they baptize as they find the clearest rule and practice and as none can deny but it was the Apostles generall practice to baptez Beleevers therefore whither is this enough that they should be Fined Imprisoned Banished The Seekers SEekers some of them Question only the way of Church and Ordinances as of Baptism c. because they find that the power was at first given to the Apostles with gifts and from them to others and they dare not take it from Antichrist and the Bishops as the Reformed Kingdomes generally take it nor from the Churches because they find no such power begun from the Churches but only of châ—yâ—e of consent not of power not Churches begun before Apostles or Disciples with gifts Quaere Whether then is this enough because they conceive they dare not take Ordinances but from such and in such a manner as was given at first to Fine Imprison or Banish them A Modell or Short Draught of the whole difference betwixt the Divines for the Presbytery and them of the other way respectively to the Magistrate or State drawn from the late Books and practice of both parties in a Petâ—â—nary way They of the Presbytery to the Magistrates or State VVE humbly Petition ye that Herericks and Schismaticks we beleeving all that differ from us to be so may have your power inflicted upon them whether to Fines Imprisonmâ—n or Banishment and upon this condition ye shall have what we can do or preach c. The Independents to the Magistrates or State VVE humbly Petition that ye will not hazzard nor endanger your civill power of the State to helpe our opinions against our Brethren for we are not Infallable nor Apostolicall we see but in part and that ye will not punish any of our Brethren Presbyterials or others for what they beleeve or differ from us in things of outward order in the Gospell and that we may have leave to pray for ye to pay tribute to ye to fight for ye and to worship the Lord among our selves peaceably as we beleeve and to punish us when we disturbe ye by tumults or trouble your peace in our way of worshipping Some Quaeres for the better understanding of M. Edwards last Book called in Latine Gangrena But in English a Book of Scandals against the Honourable Houses of Parliament the Army the Saints and Churches of Christ that differ from him Quaere 1. VVHether this be not a new way and work of Providence to bring forth some Gospel-light to the world by presenting some truth under the name and notion of errours and heresies which can scarâ—e obtaine from the Presse and Pulpit any other way of appearing abroad and if this â—e not to take the wise in their owne craftinesse and to make M. Cranford the Licenser and M. Edwards the Publisher of some such Truths which the world had else never knowne so publikely but under the forme of heresie and from their two pens but under this disguise 2. Whether that Story which M. Edwards tels of Brasteed in Kent where he sayes a woman preaches which is known to my selfe and all in that place to be a meere untruth be not a way to judge of most of his Stories Letters Relations 3. Whether this late Book called Gangrena where there are so many letters writ to the Reverend M. Edwards to the Worthy M. Edwards to the Good M. Edwards to the Father M. Edwards to the Worthy Reverend good M. Edwards with divers other insinuations of his own worth be not a way of seeking glory and praise from men 4. Whether so many Letters as are in the Book called Gangrena where there is not one name subscribed may not be as well written from M. Edwards as to him and whether the Authours of those Letters whose names are suppressed are not afraid to be questioned for their Relations and therefore have either conceived their names themselves or M. Edwaras for them 5. Whether the great reasonings and conflicts which
as these are is this faire dealing with the State You have brought forth before Israel and the Sun many pretended sins and crimes of your Brethren Suppose they should write by your Copy and bring forth the Aslembly-sinnes the crimes of all those of your way of all the Divines and others that you take in and rake back into the ashes of their unregenerate condition keep Almanackes for the yeares and dayes of their faylings watch their haltings in all things they say or doe tell all the Stories of them they heare what would the next generation thinke of their Book and yours At this rate of writing they would not reade one honest man of all their forefathers yet this is your course and method I have done for this time and I hope all that are not inchanted with the Gorgons-head of Hereticks and Schismaticks and Church of England as your owne Smectymnians say will reade and judge I had said more to ye had you printed us more Reason and lesse Reviling and something more then Stories and Winter-tales And for our Licenser whom you so rayle at he is so much a friend to all the world of beleevers as to give them the Scripture-liberty of proving and trying all things and not to silence the Presse as some would and as the Prelates did silence the Pulpit And now let any age weighing all the differences excepting the Blasphemies c. and the nature of them nakedly without aggravations and fallacy of words bring forth a Book printed in such Letters of bloud as this Gangraena bind up all the Oxford Aulicusses the Mountagues the Pocklingtons and see if this Gangraena doe not exceed them all this is Persecution and Prelacy sublimate And for all this I would not have the Civill power drawne against you if we had all the Magistrates on our side but rather that you may in the flowings of a more heavenly spirit with your head of waters and your eyes a fountaine of teares write against your owne Book and let the world see that Men in these times are not infallible as you all conclude but may mistake their Brethren for Enemies some Truths for Errours and Zeale for Persecution as the very Jewes did when they crucified Christ as they thought for Blasphemy And some shall kill ye saith Christ and thinke they doe God good service A Parallel between the Prelacy and the Presbytery Quaere VVHether if we should reply to M. Edwards in his owne words and as Salomon saith answer him according to his c. we not compare things as followeth and trace up their proceedings into the very mystery of Prelacy 1. The Prelates were ordained Ministers by the Bishops Quaere Whether may it not be said the Divines that sit now are Ordained by the same power of Bishops to be Ministers and so by that power ordaine others 2. The Prelates when they had made Canons procured the power of the State to impose them upon all the Kingdome Quaere Whether may it not be said the Divines now get the same power to what they decree and accordingly impose them upon the Kingdome 3. The Prelates composed one great Service-booke for direction to Uniformity of worship according as they had ordered under penalties yet without the least word of Scripture to prove the truth of any thing in it Quaere Whether may it not be said Divines have composed one great Booke accordingly now for the like Uniformity viz. the Directory to be observed under fines and penalties and yet without the least word or tittle of Scripture to prove the truth of any thing in it 4. The Prelates ordered that from that Book Prayers should be read to the people Quaere Whether may it not be said the Divines now have not cast the Prayers of the Spirit into such Formes and Methods that a little invention will make them as stinted currant and legible Formes as before and accordingly read in divers places 5. The Prelates counted all that would not conforme to them Schismaticall and Hereticall Quaere Whether may it not be said the Divines now count not all so that will not be uniforme with them 6. The Prelates forbad all to Preach and Print that did not Preach and Print for their way of worship and Government Quaere Whether may it not be said the Divines now would not have all hindred from Pulpit and Presse that will not be of way of Worship and Government with them 7. The Prelates possessed themselves of the States power and favour Quaere Whether may it not be said the Divines now wholly labour after the same interest both in Parliament and other Councles 8. The Prelates had their Licensers to stop all that write against their power and pompe Quaere Whether may it not be said the Divines now labour to ingrosse the power of licensing only to themselves 9. The Prelates had for part of their Government Fines Pillories Whips Imprisonment Quaere Whether may it not be said the Divines now have those very things for part of theirs 10. The Prelates had Parishes for their Churches and Tythes for their maintenance Quaere Whether may it not be said the Divines now have the same Parishes now for Churches the same Tythes for maintenance 11. The Prelates called all other meetings but their Parish-meetings Conventicles Quaere Whether may it not be said the Divines now call the Churches and people that meet now together apart from them Conventicles as formerly 12. The Prelates called the Non-conformists factious troublers of the State Quaere Whether may it not be said the Divines now doe accordingly call any that write or oppose their Presbytery factious and State-troublers 13. The Prelates ever accused their Non-conforming Brethren to the King and Councell Quaere Whether may it not be said the Divines now accordingly accuse their Non-conforming Brethren to the Parliament and other Councels 14. The Prelates had a designe to send all their Non-conformed Brethren to strange Kingdomes as New-England Quaere Whether may it not be said the Divines now endeavour to send their Non-conforming Brethren to other places out of the Kingdome 15. The Prelates ingrossed all the Preaching and preferring Divines to all places of honour and popularity in the Kingdome to themselves Quaere Whether may it not be said the Divines now doe accordingly preferre to all places of publike trust honour and imploiment as Universities Navy Armies Garrison-Towns Counties Cities c 16. The Prelates would not suffer men whom they called Lay-men to speake of the Scriptures Quaere Whether may it not be said the Divines now doe forbid and contemne all Lay-mens gifts in the same manner 17. The Prelates would not suffer any to goe from the Parish-Minister Quaere Whether may it not be said the Divines now accordingly labour to have all keep to their Parishes 18. The Prelates called Truths which they received not New Lights Errours Quaere Whether may it not be said the Divines now accordingly call all things they
That some of the dissenting Brethren hold Synods Ordinances of God and this Assembly so I know some of our Brethren for the Presbytery hold Infant-Baptism unlawfull and Antichristian and hath better defended it then any yet whom I have read hath answered it And for this Assembly to be an Ordinance of God I thought that had been but an Ordinance of Parliament and stood by that power by which they were called by at first Yet deny not but that consultations for holy ends about the things of God are lawfull by the Word To the Tenth That Presbyteries because not infallibly gifted are of no Divine Right and so concludes against all Presbyteries and Ordinances Yea against all your Presbyteries to be of Divine Right as the first But our question is rather whether the first was any such Presbytery as you now affirme and for ought I see you can no more prove the truth of the Presbytery then in the sense you take it then your Presbytery to be one with it one only in Divine Right not in Divine power or gifts And how are these things sutable To the Eleventh That I contradict the pure Government I plead for by pleading for yours as prudentiall It were true indeed if I pleaded it in mine own behalfe I plead it occasionally for them who will needs have what the State cannot in conscience allow them and yet will not practice any other but what the State shall give them and so trouble both the State and their own consciences and would cast a snare upon both Brethren if ye will needs have the State to allow ye your Presbytery Why are ye not content with what they can allow ye If ye will have a Divine Right which they cannot allow ye why do ye trouble them and sit down under a bondage of your own making But how justly is this yoke come upon you who would have brought a worse upon your Brethren To the Twelfth That the first Presbyters and Apostles c. were not infallible as in divers practices What is this to the truth and gifts they taught and taught by They failed as men but not as Apostles They erred as they were Peter and Paul but not as moved by the Holy Ghost Take heed by opening the Apostles failings to justifie your own you speake not worse Blasphemy then you name in me and make that glorious Word of Scripture questionable which they preached like the words that your selves preach from that Scripture To the Thirteenth That to say the Apostles did advise in place of the written Word is Blasphemy What Blasphemy is it to say that the same Word which they writ and preached the same Spirit spake in them and spake the same truth in them which writ in them And is it so with any of your Presbyters Therefore till the same Spirit speak truth in them so as in the first Presbyters will they challenge the same right the same power Will they have a Divine Right acted by a spirit lesse Divine then the Right To the Fourteenth That the Presbyterians in France Scotland and the Netherlands do not embroyle Kingdoms There is good reason in France they cannot if they would I wish you would walke under the Magistrate as they do and as your dissenting Brethren here and not make him serve you And in the Netherlands do you as they do there and leave your Brethren to the like liberty that is in that State and they will not grudge ye your Presbytery amongst your selves For Scotland they are Brethren I wish no worse to then Truth and Peace and power above their Ministers To that of excommunicating kingdoms being a bugbear You do well to say so till ye be established but you that dare so capitulate with States whom ye are called to advise in things onely propounded what more may be expected upon all your principles I leave to be judged To the Fifteenth That they aske not of the State a power but a liberty to exercise that power Well and will ye trouble the State no further Will ye not intreat them to punish such a one and such a one whom ye judge an Hereticke and a Schismaticke to fine and imprison when you have done with them at Excommunication May the State be quiet if they say to ye go all that are so perswaded as you are and worship and practise as your dissenting brethren and other Saints and trouble not us to provide for your Tythes and Rule for you in things of your own cognizance over Consciences But you would onely have liberty from them your power is of Christ But you cannot so cleare things as you thinke If your power and liberty respectively to your selves and the Magistrate be so distinct why have ye mingled them and confounded them all this while Why make ye the truth and power ye have from Christ wait so at Parliament-doores as Master Case said If the powers on earth will not do for Christ as you would make the people beleeve Why do not ye your selves more for Christ Is it better to obey God or man Thus the more ye would single your selves in your power and right from the Magistrate the more your practice makes an argument against ye To the Sixteenth That I should say 〈◊〉 sound Church Church-officers shall excommunicate and judge of offences and in an unsound the Magistrate and the Inference there I answer I spake and writ so according to your principles not to my owne Nor can I see how you can chalenge such a one entire and simple Discipline exclusively to the Magistrate upon no more true pure and Scripture-principles then your present Presbytery is And I conceive the powers on earth or in the world have to do in every Government that is more of the world then of Christ For if ye exclude them from a part in that Government which is partly prudential and of man you exclude them from off part of their owne Kingdome which is theirs by inheritance and of more Divine Right then I conceive yours to be And whereas you would make us beleeve you stand onely in a pure Gospel strength and power and desire no more of the Magistrate but liberty can this be so in truth when all is esteemed invalid and nothing if the Magistrates power doth not actuate the Ministers power I know you may distinguish of powers Scholastically and Spheres of working for those powers and so tell the Magistrate and us he doth but act in his Sphere when he acts in yours and indeed acts yours making it to be stronger then it is in it selfe But is not his Civil power that which puts life as you think into all your Presbytery Yet he must think he doth but as a Magistrate still as if so be that the Magistrate were made to be rods in the hands of the Church and Swords to be drawn by them and Iron whips at their girdles We are not now as Aarois and Moset we are not