Independent from the Apostles Laws And if he put it as an Argument it runs thus if the Primitive Churches were subject to the Apostles Laws Rules then are all Churches now subject to a Presbytery and Synods the consequence we desire you to prove To whom should the Church be subject but to these who gave them the minde of God immediatly And here let the Reader observe that in this Head Master Pryn brought in many Arguments by way of absurdity upon the holding of the Primitive Churches to be a pattern of all other which it seems he is ashamed to mention and seeth now because of what was retorted on him that even they themselves are absurd For that he saith of my retorted That the Scriptures were written in the infancie of the Church therefore better might be written now that is a blasphemous conclusion It s confessed Yet had it as good a consequence as yours that the Churches now had a more perfect constitution then the Churches in the Apostles times because they were the first and as you call them Infant churches Whereas you say that the Scripture was writ by the Ancient of dayes who hath neither infancie nor imperfection as the Church hath I Answer That the Scripture was writ to be a Rule to perfect the Churches and the reason of the imperfection of the Churches is because it comes not up to that Rule and these Churches how ever you deemed them Infant had more knowledge of that Rule then ever any yet have had they receiving it more immediatly from Gods mouth then any since and their Churches must needs be more exactly constituted then any since who lived under the Apostles direction and had all they had from them as from God To that I say that he would make a Nationall Church more perfect then a Congregationall he saith he doubts not to averre it since warranted by direct * Eph. 4. 11 12 13. 2 Cor. 13. 9. Heb 6. 1. 1 Pet. 9. 10. Phil. 3. 12. 2. Heb. 13. 21. James 1. 4. Scriptures to the which I shall refer the Reader but to look over and then let him learn hereafter to be taken with Master Pryns Marginall Quotations what shaddow there is of proof in these Scriptures but a cast of an eye will discern But yet I answer Imperfection in any thing ariseth more or lesse either from the defect of something essentiall or which is to the beauty and ornament and glory of a thing or both then is a thing more or lesse perfect when either its essentialls are more perfect or that which accidentally goes to the adorning of it What there is more of these two in a Nationall Church then in a Congregationall I know not unlesse the mixt multitude of beleevers and profane persons growing up together into a bitter bulk of sin should adde either to the essence or ornament of a Church if God had seen so much beauty in Nationall-churches above others he would not have destroyed the Jewish State or at least would have stablished the like in the Gospel and would have converted the heathen Empires and have took them in to be a Church to him It was the mixt multitude which came out of Egypt with the Israelites that brought them to so much wo indeed were a whole nation such as could be judged reall Saints it would be a lovely sight to behold so many Churches walking together in the unity of the faith but that never hath been yet we know not what may be we have little hopes of it untill the Jews be called if then And which is a more perfect State a company of visible Saints joyned together in love and walking in all the Ordinances of God according to their light or a whole nation wherein there is here and there a Saint walking with Whoremasters Drunkards and all sorts of ungodly ones without distinction and enjoying all these Ordinances that the most have no right unto The comparison between a grown experienced Christian and a babe in grace is no way proportionable to this thing Wherein lies the growth and perfection and experience in a Nationall-church that is not in a Congregationall Either it lies in the Presbytery and Nationall-assembly or in the distinct Parishes and the Members of them If in the Assembly that they are so experienced the people have little benefit by it unlesse to subject their necks to what they say and there is the same in many Congregationall-churches when met for advice if in the Parishes and the severall Congregations the same is in this way we speak of much more little is the edification the members have from the perfection of a Nationall-church seeing they cannot meet together or be present at the hearing of these experiences that others have the onely benefit the members have is from the enjoyment of the gifts of their own Pastour and it may be he one that they never chose as Pastour to them but was imposed on them and the truth is this is but to circumscribe the Church in the Ministers for else there may be more understanding men and experienced Christians in a Congregationall-church then generally thorowout a nation the common people being most ignorant every where One thing he urgeth more in this That a Congregationall-church is forced to pray in the aid of other Churches for advice assistance c. which a Nationall-church need not Now here let all the world observe whether he or any of the Presbyterians have cause to call us Independent What more independent then a Nationall-church It s a Pope infallible needs no aid assistance of any Church in the world it hath a spirit of infallibility tied to its girdle We acknowledge we need help and assistance from other Churches they need none and here all you Presbyterians either renounce Master Pryns opinion and get some other Champion for you or else for ever cease to open your mouth to call any of the Congregationall way Independent In fine saith he He himself confesseth that the Apostles made new rules for Government and Discipline as occasion served and as God fitted occasions so he made known new rules successively by degrees not at once c. Therefore the Infant-Church in the Apostles dayes was not so compleat and perfect in all its parts as the multiplied and grown Churches afterwards A. How much he hath failed in the recitall of this let the Reader compare and judge I will not say wilfully as he saith of me for he hath left out that part which was the strength of all which if he had took in his Position had been overthrown which was that though the Apostles added by degrees according as occasion served new Rules and Offices for to what end should they adde untill there was occasion yet so as at length they discovered all the minde of God concerning his Churches Government and left it as a pattern to all the Churches As the Scriptures were not written all at once but
State free from the blood of Martyrs if this Principle be ingrafted to them and practised by them Ninthly this will be the greatest hindrance of knowledge and growth in Religion that can be for it puts out mens own eyes and judgment and ties them to see by others every man which hath not his conscience and judgment quite sold to the common opinions and lost in the common road will be affraid to read the Scriptures or search them throughly for if God should dart in any light from them or his own ingenuity thorough the strength of his reason should be forced to dissent from the multitude either he must stiffle in the birth his divine conception for so it may be for if he be known to be of such a judgment though in it self never so small he must loose all he hath and ipso facto be liable to the greatest censure or else he must dissemble his judgment and wound his conscience what a strait is this this will be only growth in religion to grow up more conformable to the opinion of the times he will be accounted the most knowing man who hath the language of the times most by heart no man durst set to himself a higher pitch in walking with God then the State hath set to him upon pain of the greatest hazard and wheras God reveals divers truths in divers ages times especially in matters of government and worship more and more as men come out of Antichristian darknesse yet none must be suffered and tolerated but that one it may it self be Antichristian at the least miserable cold and formall Tenthly if you will needs be punishing for smaller difference in judgment I desire you to shew your Commission and Warrant from the Lord Jesus and I am sure he never gave either patterne or precept for such a course he knowes his gifts he gives to men are different and that light he communicates is more and lesse and he beares with his Saints who are of different growth and stature and I thinke we ought to beare much more who are as infirme as any others he bore with his Disciple weaknesse when they believed not the resurrection and came with peace in his mouth to them how much more would he have borne if they had doubted only of matters of Discipline Rom. 15. 1. you which are strong ought to heare with the infirmities of the weak and not to please your selves as Christ pleased not himself I hope you will walk as Christ walked Christ told his Disciples Luk. 9. 54. that they knew not of what spirit they were of when they would have fire to come down from heaven to consume those that would not receive him there are many such spirits now a day but they know not what spirit they are of Object But it will be said and its the maine objection they have if we tolerate you we must likewise tolerate Papists c. Answ That doth not follow for their very principles opposeth the secular power they differ in fundamentalls and are properly another Religion and yet the State faith when they execute Jesuites and Fryers c. it is not for their conscience or religion only That we differ is but in a point not of absolute necessity to salvation though neerer the beauty and ornament of Religion and being a truth of Christ as is conceived it must be prized and we dare not discharge our conscience of it I shall say no more of this but let men take heed how they persecute the Saints and oppresse their Brethren lest Jesus Christ draw forth his Iron Scepter against them to vindicate the innocency of his people To my twelfth quaere saith he he only answers That I fall a jeering of my Brethren and that I put a nick name on them to make them odious not answering one sillable to the substance of the Question To what I should answer more then I did I am not yet informed for this was his Question whether it be not a proud insolent name we arrogate to be independent I answered that wee disclaime it and that in print and therefore his Quaere could be nothing but a jeare To which he answers first That this title was at first assumed approved of by your selves and is still owned by many you should have named the persons that assumed it as for our parts as many as I know abhor the name as it s fathered on us Indeed we are independent in this regard that we will not subject our judgements and cause to the juridicall power either of Master Pryn or any others though we will lie down at the foot of Christ in whatever he shall command us out of his Word and the truth is the Presbytery is the onely independent in the world and may most properly be called so for you neither depend on the Scriptures for it for you affirme not jure divino neither hath it dependence on others for you say in your third Reply pag. 13. that it needs not the aid and assistance of other Churches for as the ever honoured Lord Brookes said in his booke against Bishops I know no reason why one Congregation should be accounted more independent in respect of a whole Nation then Geneva in respect of France and France in respect of all Europs cominent Therefore you are best to take up that title on your selves as most suiting with your principles As for our part we are accomptable for our actions to every neighbour Church that shall in the name of Christ require it and we stand not independent from but hold communion with all other Churches both in Ordinances and asking counsell mutually though we thinke no Church hath a power of jurisdiction to command or impose any thing on us To which you answer That if we are accountable for our actions to every particular neighbour Church then why not much more to a Parliament or Synod To which I answer We shall be as ready to give an account to the Parliament and Synod of any action we do with the reason of it as well nay rather then to any other as for the way of doing of it we are accountable by way of information and satisfaction and in some cases unto the Magistrate by way of just appeal as in case an obstinate offender shall be excommunicated and he be unruly he or we may appeal to the Magistrate for redresse we that if the Magistrate judge him justly excommunicated he may be restrained from disturbing of us he that if the Magistrate judge the sentence unjust may be publikely cleared and vindicated But for any authorative power of jurisdiction that Synods or any have to make Canons and impose on us which we are bound to follow we humbly conceive it not be the minde of Christ and we shall desire Master Pryn to shew us his Rule in Scripture To the second he answers That if you stand not independant from other Churches but hold communion with them
shall all be called together the most part of the nations shall beleeve and come to Christ in 1 Pet. 2. 9. which he quotes The Apostle calls the scattered Saints a holy nation yet they were no nation but scattered thorow many nations and these Scriptures are meant of the multiplicity of beleevers that shall be brought under Jesus Christs Dominion and these Texts do no more prove a nationall Church or any one nation wholly converted then that Text Go preach the Gospel unto every nation Matth. 28. proves that every nation shall therefore be converted to Christ and they rather prove that all nations shall be reall Saints then that any one nation or more shall be so Besides if the Church be nationall every one of the nation is a member and there can be no censures of Excommunication rightly administred for there can be no Excommunication but either by cutting the person off from this life or else banishing which are for destruction not edification for whiles he lives in the Kingdom he is a member and the bounds and limits of the nation are the bounds and limits of the Church Againe of what Nation in the world can it be said which is said of the Church you are a peculiar and holy people nay are not all the Nations corrupted few or none in the most imbracing the Gospel England hath been accounted as Protestant and as refined a Nation as any hath been for Doctrine yet how many vipers hath it bred in its own bowels who ever have been more wicked then they where have the Saints been more persecuted then here Againe if Nations may be Churches there will be no distinction between the World and the Church all will be Saints and as far members of the visible Church as the best Saints To that I say that he cannot shew any Nation every Member whereof is qualified sufficiently to make up a Church unlesse wee will take in Drunkards Whoremongers c. and this cannot be avoided in a Nationall Church he answers that he daces not be wiser then his Lord and Master who informes him that there will and must be alwaies in the visible Church on earth goats among the sheep châ—ffe amongst the wheat c. I answer 1. That there will be goats is most certaine but that there must be is neither necessitate praecepti nor medâ—j Christ never commanded it neither is it of absolute necessity for the Saints can live be built up without any mixture of such society is it a delight and pleasure to Christ to see goats among his sheep in his own fold what need then this must be so confidently put in Secondly goats chaffe bad fish are taken for hypocrites as well as profane men and in these places they are only to be taken so as for example that place Mat. 13. 24. of the good seed and the tares which he quotes by tares are not meant profane persons but hypocrites 1. the * Scutietus in obse vat in Mat. Pasor Lexicon in â—…b Word expresseth no more tares as Historians observe are a weed like the wheat now profane men are no way like the Saints 2. if it be meant of profane men and Master Pryn take it of their being in the Church then all the censures of the Church are out off ipso facto for the Text saith expressely they must be let alone till the harvest that is the day of judgment so that no wicked man may be excommunicated or any censure passe upon him yea 3. it is plaine they are hypocrites they were discovered by none but the Angells yea 4. if you will needs take it of profane men the Text saith expressely that these were not in the Church but in the world the field is the world vers 38. whereas he saith he finds that in the Churches of Galathia Collosse Pergamus c. there were drunkards Epicures whoremongers c. I answer in general that I know no Churches openly taxt for any such grosse acts of sin in all the New Testament only the Church of Corinth abou the incestuous Corinthian which is spoken as a defilement and a blot upon them whereby they were corrupted and he therefore exhorts them to cast him out that they might be a new lumpe 1 Cor. 5. As for 1 Cor. 11. where the Apostle saith one is thirsty and another is drunke I think it not meant of that grosse act which we call drunkennesse but the same with that which is said of Joseph and his brethren Gen. 43. 5. they dranke and were merry they drank more freely then they ought at that time though it might be lawfull at another time but however though there were these in such Churches Yet First I speak of the first constitution of a Church and what Churches should be not what they are degenerated into Secondly they were most spirituall sins that were laid to the charge of the seven Churches and other Churches as that they lost their first love countenanced false teachers c. not such grosse acts of prophanesse as whoring c. Yet Thirdly what heavy and sad threatnings are there denounced by God against these if the continued in that estate and what judgment did follow for God is very tender of his worship and what is become of all these Churches now how greatly hath God been displeased with them the Jewes might not enter into marriage with the daughters of a strange Land much lesse might they admit them to ordinances among them unlesse really converted and made proselytes now such are all not visible Saints in the judgment of the Saints unto those that are really called and joine together in the ordinances and they ought to be as shye of those as they were of them whatever a Church rightly constituted may fall into by defection I speak not of but what they ought to be such as the word calls Saints which can hardly be given by any knowing Saint to the most part of men in England For that he asketh whether we have not drunkards cozeners usurers c. members of our Churches I answer we know none and we should thank Master Pryn if he could discover any such account him our reall friend in it For that he saith where was there ever a Church of all elected ones that is a state for heaven not for this world I answer there 's none saith a Church must be all of elect but of such as can be judged by the Saints to be elect If men be not saved it s not because the Church is deceived but themselves the Church goes only on these probable rules of judging by which the word prescribes the visible Church in Scripture is called Heaven often times as Mat. 25. 1. Heb. 12. 26. Mat 13. and in Esa 4. 5. its called glory to intimate that none should properly be of the Church but should go to Heaven and it s called the body of Christ none should be admitted as members of that body but
some Epistles were written to some Churches before others according as occasion was and the Revelation discovered last as concerning the last Ages of the Church yet so as still at length that the whole Scripture should be written and left as the minde of God to all ages And unlesse Master Pryn saith that the Churches constituted by the Apostles had not at length a full discovery of Church-government he hath no ground to think they were not so compleat as the following Churches My tenth Querie saith he he wilfully mis-recites as he doth the rest and then returns an Answer by way of Dilemma Charity would have prompted you otherwise to which he Answers thus That if the Parliament and Synod shall by publike consent establish a Presbyterian Government as consonant to the Word the Laws and Regiment of this Kingdome Independents and all others are bound in conscience to submit under pain of obstinacie singularity in case they cannot prove it Diametrally opposite to the Scripture c. Something hath been said in Answer to this before Yet further if Master Pryn means by submitting that actually we must yeeld to the Presbyteriall judgement and on the first setting of it up presently lay down every thought of Reason and Argument we have raised up against it and say it is the way of Christ and the onely way which we must serve Christ in if he thinks any of us to have the least principles of reason he cannot imagine we should do so But if he means thus That we ought not to stand against that Authority that sets it up but submit to the penalty if the least can in conscience be imposed which shall be laid on us we grant it I hope we shall not be found despisers of Authority in that but shall expect as great assistance from Jesus Christ as ever you did in a matter far lower even the writing against a Bishops Court or a Cardinalls Cap as crossing the Statutes of the land and as you confesse but a matter of meer opinion I speak not this to upbraid you or detract from your sufferings which are indeed badges of honour not of shame but as far as your self detract from them in telling us the true ground of them that we might not too much glory in you These places you so often quote Rom. 13. 1. 1. Tim. 2. 1. c. They make as much for Heathen Magistrates as Christian and in every thing as well as any thing if it be meant of actuall obedience To his crosse Interrogatories saith he I Answer First That if the Popes Councell command lawfull things to them that are under their power they ought to be obeyed as well as the commands of Heathen Emperours Magistrates Parents by Christian Subjects Wives Servants living under them Notwithstanding this the Argument is still in force That Heathen Emperours are to be obeyed as well as any Christian Magistrates if that as Magistrates they must be obeyed for that you say and seem to make a distinction of it if they command lawfull thing But the question is still who shall be Judge of that Is it not as great a reason that I shall be Judge of the lawfulnesse of the things I am to obey as the Magistrate should judge of that he commands to be lawfull If this be not granted blinde obedience must necessarily follow If I obey because he judges it lawfull I obey not out of a principle of judgement concerning the thing but meerly because of the command what blinder obedience there can be I know not Again as before either the power commanding is to be obeyed or else the things themselves command obedience If the former that is alike to all Magistrates and in every thing there must be obedience where that power is If for the latter then the things themselves binde and then I must needs see it to be lawfull and that necessity of sinning put upon a man by this is not taken away by any thing I see in Master Pryns Reasons for if I obey not the power commanding of lawfull things I sin if I do obey before I am convinced of the lawfulnesse of it or have a scruple or doubt of its unlawfulnesse much more when I positively think so I sin against God and he will condemne me as an hypocrite a time-server as one sinning against my light and contradicting these motions that for ought I know are from his good spirit God cares not for nay will condemne whatever is done without knowledge though the things themselves be what he hath commanded so that either we shall intreat Master Pryn to give us new eyes or else not to censure us if we actually follow not that we have no knowledge in Secondly saith he there is a great difference between matters of opininion only and of practice as whether Episcopacy be jure divino c. though the resolutions of a Synod and Parliament should be affirmative they could not binde my judgment saith he absolutely so far as to subscribe to their opinion as an undoubted truth unlesse they could satisfie my arguments yet they should and ought to binde me to practise So if the Parliament and Synod should establish any Church-government though it bindes not Independents to be simply of their opinion or unlesse your reasons and arguments be sufficient to convince their judgments yet it bindes them in point of practice and obedience outwardly to submit thereunto This Argument contradicteth the fundamentals of Religion and gives way to the greatest hypocrisie in the world this is that God requires in all services that the heart and the head and the hand goe together to oppose the practice and the judgement in spirituall obedience is to separate the soul from the body and bid the body act God hath put the understanding in a man to be a light to his path a mans understanding is a mans practice as the eye to the body without which it cannot walk safely and men may be what they will if this be true that a mans judgment may be one way and a mans practice another a man may deny God break the Sabbath sweare in his practice so his judgement be contrary But it may be Master Pryn meanes it of indifferent things meerly circumstantiall but I hope he accounts not matters of worship and Church-government so whatever is not of faith is sin no mans practice can be of faith who knowes not what he doth lawfull much lesse whose judgement is contrary It s true matter of opinion is one thing if it be a meer opinion that is not reducible to practise and I may only hold an opinion and being contradicted by higher powers though I may not be convinced yet I may be silent but when things come to be prest on me to practise and that in the worship of God and my judgment is not satisfied then I must be convinc't or else it s a sin for me to practise how Master Pryn thinks in his
Then first why do you separate from them as no true Christians Answ I answer in generall We separate from none we know to be true Churches but if you mean by your true Church the whole bulk of the nation whom you call a Church we must needs separate from it for we acknowledge no such Church Yet Secondly Though we acknowledge not England as a nation to be a true Church yet we acknowledge many true Churches in England with whom yet we cannot communicate in Church Ordinances because of many personall defilements among them or yet purged out and if they would give us leave in our communion with them to professe against these corruptions which we think defile them we should not scruple communion with them You know that one may be a reall man yee so corrupted with diseases and sores that it may be dangerous to come nigh him or eat or drink with him Glad should we be to joyn with them if they were so reformed and that mixture taken away that as nigh as could be none but such as had a right to Christ might partake of the Ordinances untill then you must excuse us if though we think many to be true Churches we cannot actually communicate with them You tell us saith he that neither I nor any Synods nor this Synod is infallible c. Therefore men are not bound to obey their decrees on penalty of sin To which he answers onely by way of Querie May not you and your Independent Ministers erre as well others O yes surely therefore they arrogate not such a power to make Laws for others as for that of the Major Votes it s answered before How ever slight Master Pryn makes of this reason yet untill he hath answered he must give us leave to beleeve it For if Synods have power to binde the conscience it is either because they can enjoyn nothing but truth for truth onely binds the conscience and so are infallible or else because of their own power and authority I know no other ground for it Is this good Logick or Divinity saith he Good Ministers may and do erre in some points of Divinity therefore we will beleeve them in none In that you say true there is neither Logick nor Divinity but the Consequence as I draw it is this Ministers may erre therefore none are absolutely bound to beleeve every thing they say as Scripture and so to sin if they obey not for it s a certain truth not probable that binds the conscience Certain I say either as I apprehend it or in regard of it self if I am bound to beleeve what ever they say that are in authority who may erre then my conscience is subject to errour as well as truth for that which is commanded may be errour yea if I think it errour yet I must obey it and this holds in every thing as well as any thing for in all things that is commanded they who command are to go by their own â—…dgements of the truth of the thing that they enjoyn and their judgements may erre yet I am bound to obey and sin if I do not Nay suppose what they command to be a truth yet I think it an errour and so it is to me my conscience so judging yet I am bound to obey else I sin The Lord learn you and those in authority more tendernesse to Saints consciences that you may not put such a yoke upon our necks that neither we nor our fathers were able to bear FINIS