with all truth as the Scriptures quoted compared together will prove To which I say they do easily and fully prove the same and there were never any that held the perfection of the Scriptures that did deny the same yet is J. S. never the nearer for all his pains in multiplying expressions to make the matter seem something when indeed it is nothing at all to purpose For To the Law and the Testimony we are to go And in Esay 8. 20. 2 Pet. 1 19. difficult cases To take heed to the Word as to a Light that enlighteneth in darknesse Now first I say the Scripture giveth no light at all concerning such a cessation of the Church and Ordinances Nay it is against the light of the Scriptures to beleeve any such thing Jesus Christ having said That hell gates shall not prevail against his Church and Matth. 16. Matth. 28. 20. having also promised his presence for preservation and continuation for ever Secondly I say it is but directively that the Scriptures do furnish men in all cases now their direction in this case it is to the Church 2 Tim. 3. 17 18. and to the ministery of man for the enjoying and being made partakers of the holy Ordinances of God The holy Scriptures of old in a like manner stood in the stead of Moses and the Prophets in a sense And yet the heathen were to repair to Jerusalem for the Ordinances as they did and did not act Esay 8. 20. 2 Pet. 1. 19. 2 Chro. 6. 32. them themselves with the help of the Law The Scriptures in a sense stood in the stead of Christ and the Apostles yet the people must go to John yea our Lord himself that he might fulfill righteousnesse Matth. 3. 15. must go to him Cornelius must send for Peter Paul must Act. 10. 32. Act. 9. 10. have Ananias and so such as attain the knowledge of the truth they are to go to the Church and Ministery of man appointed of God and so that way to be added to the Church and made partakers of the holy Ordinances of God for it is most certain the Act. 2. 47. Scriptures act nothing neither can they they onely direct in righteousnesse 2 Tim. 3. 16. their directions is always as aforesaid and no otherwise Thirdly I say it is not true that the Scriptures are in the stead of the holy Ministery ordained by God The Scriptures were not in the stead of the Priests in case of Sauls sacrificing nor in Vzzia the King his burning incense to inable them to do as they did 1 Sam. 13. 12. The Scriptures were not in stead of circumcised Jews unto the Heathen to inable them or make them capable of building the Temple 2 Chron. 26. 17 18. They were not in stead of John Baptist to our Lord They were not in stead of Peter to Cornelius and his friends As it is not in stead of Ezra 4. 3. Matth. 3. 15. Acts 10. 32. Christ the Apostles or holy Ministery to an unbaptized person or persons to inable them warrantably to Baptize and so without Commission to raise this Ordinance a new so lost and deceased out of the world according to his opinion The Scriptures which he quoteth I shall set down and they are these 2 Tim. 3. 15. 2 Pet. 1. 19. Rom. 16. 25 c. Now I appeal to the indifferent Reader whether these Scriptures all or any of them are any other then directive Again whether their direction it be not to a precedent Stative Church and ministery of man appointed by God as formerly under Moses and the Prophets so in this latter dispensation under Christ and the Apostles as is before declared Lastly whether these Scriptures or any of these or all of these compared together do give direction to a person unbaptized himself to baptize either himself or others and whether they do not rather testifie against such usurpation of Gods holy things and running before they be sent in thus doing a thing that never came into Jerem. 23. 21. the minde of God much lesse did he require it at their hands Jerem. 32. 35. J. S. proceedeth and saith By all which we see that all things are contained in the Scriptures Answ Yea in the way of direction and therefore such practices as are without the direction of the Scripture are unwarrantable such as is their casting away as Null their present Baptisme because of some corruptions that did attend it and beginning it again with greater corruptions namely by an unbaptized person without Commission acting of it Here he addeth many good words in commendation of the Scriptures As containing all things concerning faith and obedience as being the Propheticall mouth of Christ to which all must repair unto and all Doctrines and practices must be tryed by and an Angell from heaven is not to be beleeved but as they speak according to it All which is directive as I said before And what then Truly nothing Though he go over the same matter again with some different expressions and some of them improper carrying a shew of favouring his conceit and what he would have As where he saith The Scriptures is the onely place How is this proper or true unlesse he mean in a directive way Where any Ordinance of God in case aforesaid that is of cessation and losse of being again when or wheresoever any of these meaning Ordinances of God cannot be found What then We are saith he to go to the Scriptures directly and recover the same again as Cant. 1. 7. Esay 8. 19 20. Answ All this is but the same over again we are to go to the Scripture for direction if the case were so the Scripture directing and not acting as Esay 8. 19 20. the Church acting according to that direction and therefore persons are sent thither according to that Cant. 1. 7. alleadged which is according to the direction of Scripture which alwayes sendeth men to the Church in such cases so as in this copiousnesse he doth but puzzle his Reader to make him beleeve what he is never able to prove He proceedeth saying Thus having found out the place or subject very improper expressions Is not the Scripture the ground and foundation of all Ordinances in a directive way Did ever any Christian question it much lesse deny it That he should with often going over the same and with such improper expressions and far fetches seek to make it appear as a discovery of truth not known or at least not assented unto sure he had some further drift in it then ordinary In the next place he saith It is to be known how they that want it may come orderly by it For saith he though God hath joyned his Word and Ordinances together yet he hath injoyned an orderly way for his people to come to injoy them Answ I would fain know to what end all the former matter serveth if so be God require an
very dark and smoakie this hee will doe by shewing the manner of the aforesaid Constitution in the causes of it How will he doe it in pag. 40. by saying over again what he had said again and again before namely that the Scriptures remaining in the place of the Apostles for us to have recourse unto and serve as the mouth of Christ Alas this is but a poore clearing for this is onely in a directive way as before I noted And what then The Scriptures being so truly nothing at all Yes saith he as the Apostles did before the Scriptures were written To which I say there were Scriptures before the Apostles to which the Apostles had an eye and regard and directed others to doe the like The holy Apostles they acted Ordinances of Religion preaching breaking bread and baptizing The Scripture acts nothing neither can they surely Act. 2. 42. this is a poore clearing we will minde the Scriptures hee here quoteth Matth. 28. 20. 2 Pet. 19. 20 21. Rom. 10. 6 7 8. In answer I will not tire my selfe and the Reader certainly no man can imagine any thing more then direction from that full and perfect rule of the Scriptures as gatherable from those places of Scripture which as before I said none deny let him but call to mind what he said of an orderly way which God requireth and how that is as he conceiveth by the Church and then let him tell mee if hee can to what purpose these Scriptures are or that which followeth that as the Lords people conferred with the Prophets and Apostles about their great affaires so have the Lords people now Moses and the Prophets Christ and his Apostles in their writings as Luk. 16. 29. And what then truly nothing it is but for direction as before nor yet that which further followeth in this clearing matter of the constituting causes which are saith he with the spirit of life in them as effectuall as their personall presence if not more Answ Stay a while the matter is sure otherwise for this effectuallnesse if it were granted is but directive But it is not wholly granted for that the Apostles were men inspired and sent of God to declare his will they were a saving meanes of good to men and God in his good pleasure as a double mercy gave his Word and sent his Apostles and Prophets sure I take it it must needs follow that if the Scriptures were as effectuall without the Apostles and rather more then with them then God gave the Apostles in vaine and the Churches were great losers by their personall presence but the truth is otherwise as is most manifest The Scripture with the Spirit of life in them act nothing but onely direct and furnish men how to act according to the will of God in an orderly way according to what hee holdeth For proofe of what before he affirmed of the effectualnesse of the Scripture he quoteth Joh. 6. 62. 2 Pet. 1. 18 19. Revel 11. 3 5 11. Answ That in John speaketh of Christ ascending where he was before how this should prove any thing is beyond my thoughts I will say nothing but leave the Reader to judge of it That place of Peter is of the sure direction of the Word in dark and our doing well to take heed to it That in the Revelation is of the two witnesses a thing too mysterious to be a proofe in this case I suppose J. S. will not hold himselfe to be one of those witnesses nor he with others of his way to be both those witnesses there spoken of I will say no more but leave the Reader to judge whether these Scriptures doe prove that the holy Scriptures with the Spirit of life in them as he is pleased to say are in stead of the Apostles personally sent of God with power to act ordinances or whether they in the case of the Ordinances dispensing in an orderly way are as much or more effectuall then the Apostles personally that were sent of Christ for that end who did not send the Scriptures as in the case of the Eunuch but Philip and in the case of Cornelius Peter as in those and the like instances may be seen He proceedeth and in full concluding of this matter saith and thus all succession what phrase have we here from the beginning came to Christ Of what speakes hee now of Ordinances I had thought all Ordinances had ever proceeded from him he being ever the Lord of the Church and sure he meaneth the Ordinances namely those ordained of old under Abraham and Moses and the Prophets these lasted continued to the coming of Christ into the world the substance indeed of those shadows so his sense may be good From Christ he saith to the Apostles from the Apostles to the Scriptures This is pure non-sense if I mistake not and beside I aske him where is that orderly way he told us of and how is the case now according to 1 Cor. 3. by him alleadged for the Authority of an unbaptized Church Doth he not by this discent seclude them from all rather then inright them to any such authorite happily he will say Oh from the Scriptures to us very good But first how from Christ to the Apostles Did Christ our Lord preferre the Apostles before his beloved Spouse for whom he gave himselfe I alwayes took the Apostles as the servants of the Church for Christs sake Secondly did the Ordinances 2 Cor. 4. 5. proceed from Christ to the persons of the Apostles or to their office as Apostles So as when they in regard either of person or office left the world it descended to the Scripture certainly the right and interest of the Scriptures was the same before the death and cessation of the Apostles as after and the Scriptures gained no legacie by such friends unlesse a sealing to the truth and full authority of their direction so from the Scriptures to us a wonderfull matter a very fair Ring from the Scriptures to the Scriptures and so to us just nothing but a shew of words without matter Further he saith That all succession is now spirituall So it seemeth he holdeth it was carnall before when it was from Abraham to Moses from Moses to Christ and the Apostles and so to the Scriptures and now it is from the Scriptures to us it is spirituall a rare conceit He saith it is now according to faith whether he mean faith of miracles or what else is hard to say but it mattereth not much for he is beside the Scriptures and walking in some other field It followeth not saith he the personall succession of any but onely the Word of God Answ Sure J. S. speaketh in a strange tongue he is never able to make out his sense that succession follows the Word the Word being immoveable and that which abideth for ever and hath no place for succession though he thus speaketh he know not what And the word of God he saith
matter and clean out in this first Notion Second Notion And for succession of truth truth of Ordinances you must understand It comes now by the promise of God and faith of his people whom he as aforesaid hath taken out of the world to the fellowship of the Gospel Answ Setting aside succession and in stead thereof putting in continuation What can be more right then this though not in J. S. his sense The truth of Ordinances continues by vertue of Gods promise made to his people they continuing to beleeve in him and not forgetting his name though many times greatly failing against him as of old yet the truth of Ordinances continue namely the Church and Baptisme now as the Church and Circumcision did of old and this by the promise of God J. S. hath no such sense as this but some inward familisticall sense of inward faith and Gods promise to such secret beleevers which he is never able to make out any such thing that the truth of Ordinances depends upon them in regard of continuation by vertee of the promise of God to them in such a secret way Third Notion To whom the Ordinances of Christ stand only by succession of faith What faith outward or inward and not of persons What faith severed from persons Answ I would fain know what any rationall man can make of this either in it self or as it hath relation to what is before declared Fourth Notion For the same power the Apostles had in former time for direction in godlinesse the Scriptures have in the hand of Christ as the head of the Church which make up but one body 1 Cor. 12. 12. Answ such power for direction in godlinesse the Scriptures had of old when the Apostles lived Some other things J. S. aimeth at but the truth prevaileth and the words he here useth will nothing avail namely of the Scriptures in the hand of Christ joyned with the Church It s worth observing how the Church is here couched just after the manner of the Babylonians that pretend their Church is inspired with the Holy Ghost and cannot erre for Christ the head is in Heaven and hath left his Word for direction in godlinesse for his Church to take heed unto Now the holy Apostles had authority to act Ordinances according to Christs command they were to preach pray break bread and baptize the Scriptures were not sent neither act they any thing as before So as in J. S. his sense it is utterly untrue that the Scriptures in the hand of Christ joyned with the body have the same power to act Ordinances as the Apostles had Notion fift and last So as what the Apostles and Church together might do in acting Ordinances you must understand the same may the head and body together with the Scriptures do now Reader observe how J. S. coucheth subtilly his unbaptized Church betwixt Christ and the Scriptures so as Christ being in heaven and the Scriptures only directive the whole matter for action will fall into the hands of the Church A contrivance as fine as the Papist found out when they were sore put to it by John Hus and the Bohemians and not able to defend themselves and their courses against the truth they invented and abetted this That holy Church could not erre Secondly observe how I. S. quitteth two of these three namely the head and body and concludeth laying all the stresse upon the Scriptures and so in effect saith nothing at all the Scriptures being only directive for saith he the Scriptures have the same whereas he should have said the head and body with the Scriptures have it Thirdly observe what a preposterous conjunction I. S. maketh of three in the matter of fact one of which to wit Christ the head is in Heaven who though he hath fulnesse of power acts not here below but in a providenciall and ministeriall way and the like The Church the second Christs wife is in all things to be obedient to Christ her husband his will and pleasure contained in the Scripture the Scriptures they act not but only direct where is I. S. now just where he was at the first and no further Fourthly this is utterly untrue which he concludeth that what the Church and the Apostles the Ministers of the Churches might do that the Scriptures he quitteth the head and body as before may do Now what might not the Church and the Apostles do in ordinances and administration orderly according to God what can the Scriptures act truly nothing at all their authority is only directive I suppose any one may see how far out I. S. is in these conceits In the close he is up again with revelation which happily if he did study and cleave unto would stand him in more stead then the Scriptures that are so helplesse to him in his cause CHAP. IV. Containing a defence of the opinion of them that hold no right or orderly Ministeriall Church without or before Baptisme I. S. Having ended his former matter against the Churches continuance and likewise the continuance of Baptisme under the popish defection proceeds saying And so we come to such as will have no Church before Baptisme and so make Baptisme the form of the Church Answ Who these such are that he intendeth I cannot tell they are either some of his own way or some other some of his own way do indeed so hold that Baptisme constitutes or is the form of the Church Did I think he intended them I should leave them to try it out and should not intermeddle with the strife I shall only as the matter relates to them shew my thoughts briefly namely that they will be too hard for J. S. in the tenent he himself being of their belief but that he is not true to his owne principle otherwise how should he without Schisme and being a Schismatick leave the reformed and separated Churches and set up another of his own as he hath done only he accounteth them no Churches of Christ and what is the reason he doth so nothing but his Baptisme is wanting so as that must be the form that gives being for otherwise They are companies of Saints professing faith in the righteousnesse of Christ and living accordingly that is in holynesse of life This he describeth to be the matter and the form he declareth to be their being united and knit together in one fellowship or orderly body and that is the Covenant of grace by which God becomes not visibly as he unawars saith but in an outward way of relation a God unto them and they become visibly his people Now what is there to hinder J. S. from being a Schismatick by his own ground for surely nothing hinders those Churches which he forsaketh and disclaimeth as no Churches of Christ by all or any thing that in his description of the matter or form of the Church by him set down can be found and let him take in his five Reasons to help him if he
A DEFENCE OF THE LAVVFVLNESSE OF Baptizing Infants As also of the present Baptisme as it hath continued in the severall ages of the world from John Baptist the first beginner thereof In way of Answer to something written by IOHN SPILSBERIE against the same 1 Thes 5. 12. Try all things hold fast that which is good Psal 105. 8. He hath remembred his Covenant for ever the word which he commanded to a thousand generations Deut. 30. 6. And the Lord thy God will circumcize thy heart and the heart of thy seed c. LONDON Printed by M. Bell for Benjamin Allen and are to be sold at his shop in Popes head Alley at the signe of the Crowne 1645. To the Reader THe holy Scriptures do inform us of two severall persecutions raised by Satan against that innocent part of the Church to wit Infants beside the persecutions which inclusively they at severall times have suffered with the rest of the Church The first was by Pharaoh that sore oppressour of Israel that held them in such cruell bondage The second was by bloody Herod Our Lord himselfe in this latter was personally concerned he then being an Infant and Rachels Infants suffering for him In both which it is considerable the time when In the first it was when the Israelites were neere deliverance from Egypts bondage The second was when the Deliverer was come to Sion and deliverance it was neere at hand In like kinde now in this last age now God is delivering of his Church from the long and sore bondage of spirituall Babylon called Sodom and Egypt he returning to her as in the dayes of old There is even now also a sore persecution against this innocent part of the Church which is so much the more sad and grievous in these three respects First in that it is raised and carried on by such as pretend to be friends and lovers of Sion the Church of God if it were by open and professed enemies it were more easie to be borne Secondly in that they pretend to the glory of God this their persecuting and casting out a part of his heritage as did of old those that cast out their brethren and said Let the Lord be glorified Esay 66. by which meanes many are deceived Thirdly in that their opposition is against them in a spirituall regard it being against their relation to God to his Church to his gracious Covenant or Covenant of grace from all which they seclude them driving them out of Gods heritage that they may goe serve other gods spoiling them of all their externall rights and priviledges and so leaving them among the dead to wit in trespasses and sinnes Pharaoh endeavoured to destroy and Herod killed a part of this part of the Church But these in a spirituall sense have destroyed all this part of the Church not one left alive in way of relation to God or interessed externally in Jesus Christ But this hard and injurious dealing Jehovah that is mighty and Jesus Christ that is gracious who manifested much tender respect unto these will plead their cause and right their wrong against such as rise up against them as he did of old for he taketh it as done against himselfe Courteous Reader in the behalfe of these innocent Saints to whom the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ is most free they having nothing to bring unto him no not so much as good words I doe make defence in their cause as touching their right in the Covenant of grace and part in the Church of God to whom they having relation as to a father and are therein blessed as such are whose God is the Lord. Now I have thought good to offer it to thy view in regard that a great part of what I have said for them and against their opposers runneth in another line something different from what is usually pleaded in their behalfe that it might be considered of together with an answer to some things controvertable in that way about the raising of Baptisme pretended to be lost but indeed continued by the power of God under the defilements of Antichrist The exceptions against the said continuance I have made answer unto as also some other particulars handled all which I have referred to thy judgement forbearing such confident expressions of proofe and full proofe as is to be found not in a few of this way and others also that in the judgement of the Reader have made proofe of nothing at all Indeed such confident praising of a mans own work is a certaine signe of the weaknesse of it Use thy rightfull liberty good Reader in the consideration of what is said and be impartiall seeing thou art free Now for my particular Opponent I professe as much respect and tender of love to him as to any of that way and therefore desire that nothing may be misconstrued in regard of the manner of any proceed nor of any phrases wherein I intend no hurt but to quicken the Reader and to make the matter more plausible to some that are dull If any aske why I answer only a part and not the whole book published by my opposite I answer first that a great part of it was an answer to some others to whom I leave it to make reply if they please Secondly in regard that some other part of the Booke is in way of opposall of their opinion that hold not alike the truth of the Church and Baptisme in the defection but hold the truth of Baptisme only I might doe them wrong for want of ability to manage and make out the matter therefore I have forborn and left it to themselves if they please to make defence In regard some part of this Contest is of personall Reformation and proceed from corrupt wayes to serve God purely the maine worke of this present age I shall take the boldnesse to forewarne in love and sobriety all persons to take heed to their setting out at the first for want whereof this and other errours have been fallen into by not a few A person missing his way at the first setting out the further he goeth the further out and to seeke even so it is in this one errour begetteth another and another and there is no end till men sit down in darknesse That person that cast away the truth of his relation to God to Christ externally because of defilements will never be able to make out his relation in a way of purity Other foundation can none lay then that which is laid already no not ingard of outward Religion and the service of God It is safest keeping to this lest men make their ease like those that comming from captivity sought their discent and could not finde it and so might not be admitted to speciall Ordinances but by Vrim c. Esra 2. 62. 63. Their labour is to be pitied that know not the way to the City how shall such be ever stayed in their course or setled in their way
or free from errour and changes from one to another that hold not the truth of Gods holy Ordinances to have continued in the world but to be ceased by meanes of the defilements that have attended them Consider of it courteous Reader and of the whole insuing matter which I commend to thy consideration and the blessing of God to cause thee to profit which if in any thing thou shalt doe I have my desire and so rest Thine in the service of love P. B. The Contents CHAP. I. COntaining an Answer to nine Reasons against the baptizing of Infants fol. 1 CHAP. II. Containing a discovery of the vaine pretence of finding Baptisme lost and fallen out of the world in the holy Scriptures of God fol. 17 CHAP. III. Containing a defence of the judgement of such as hold that Baptisme hath continued the Ordinance of God under the defilements of Antichrist fol. 32 CHAP. IV. Containing a defence of their judgement that hold no right or orderly ministeriall Church without or before Baptisme fol. 57 A Defence of the lawfulnesse of the Baptizing Infants CHAP. I. Containing an Answer to reasons set downe in page 25. why Infants should not be Baptized the severall Reasons being set downe in order their severall and respective Answers doe follow Reason I BEcause there is neither command nor example for the baptizing Infants in the New Testament the order and government of which is no way inferiour to the old But in the old there was an expresse rule by command from God what Communicants were to be admitted to Circumcison and other Ordinances of that nature and what not But this order is no where found in the New Testament for the baptizing of Infants and therefore the same is not to be practised Answer This first Reason placed in the front is wholly upon supposition concluding and so taking that for granted which is wholly in controversie and the contrary as confidently affirmed by his Oponents as denyed by him namely That there is neither Precept nor Example for baptizing Infants which they affirme there is Againe this Reason is wholly by way of deduction and inference without any Scripture either for ground or confirmation of it of which he complaineth in his Epistle and yet he practiseth it himselfe and that in his first Reason Secondly it is observable how he by this Reason excludeth a great and maine part of the Scripture namely necessary consequence and right inference being such a way as our Lord himselfe used to confute the Sadduces withall * Mat. 22. 32. I am the God c. God is not the God of the dead here is neither command nor example and yet the truth fully evinced the minde of God manifested and the Sadduces confuted Thirdly it is an unsound conclusion that because there is no command or example in the New Testament therefore not to be done There is no particular example nor particular command for womens partaking in the Supper yet they are judged lawfull Communicants There is no example nor particular command for translation of Scriptures or that such translations be used in Church-meetings yet it is lawfully done Lastly there is no command or example for an unbaptized person to baptize himselfe or others So as if this first Argument were true I. S. and those of his way would be in a poore case Fourthly it is untrue that which he inferreth there being both example and precept in the Scripture for the baptizing of Infants though he cannot see it 1 Corinth 10. Matth. 28. compared with Esay 52. 15. which shall be further shewed hereafter in making it to appeare that children are yet a part of the Church and so both precept and example being for the washing of the whole it must include them necessarily as a part Ephes 5. 26. Reason II It is a high contempt and injury to Christ as he is Husband of the Church his holy Spouse to force on him a naturall wife himselfe being spirituall and desires the like associate as such a Church is founded upon nature namely Infants because commonly to one borne of the Spirit there is twenty borne of the flesh Answer First here is a high charge without proofe no Scripture produced for confirmation Is not this rather a high contempt and presumption Is it not a sad thing that a man should fall under the condemnation of his owne law or otherwise exempt himselfe from that which he will binde others unto namely to bring the Scriptures and not consequences Secondly this Reason accuseth God himselfe in giving the Church of old namely those seed of Abraham by generation which he calleth carnall to Christ his Sonne to wife Jesus Christ our Lord being the same spirituall Head and Husband Yesterday and to day and for ever Heb. 13. 8. Thirdly it is no injury to Christ or contempt of him though without any Word of God he so say for Christ to have the heathen Psal 2. 8. given him for inheritance and the ends of the earth for his possession It is no injury to him though the Disciples thought it was to have little children brought to him his Kingdome consisting of such in quantity as well as quality Matth. 19. 13. Fourthly why cannot Children be spirituall and holy as well now under the Gospell as they were under Abraham and Moses when they as well as those of yeers were an holy people to the Lord God * Exod. 19. 6 7 Dent. 6 7. Esay 9. 2. and the same is said of the Church now but ye are an holy Nation a peculiar people 1 Pet. 2. 9. Beside what spiritualnesse was there in the five foolish Virgins * Matth. 25 I would know that is not or may not be in children and is not there as much injury offered to Christ in giving them to Christ to wife Truly this is weake and inconsiderate so to reason not minding that many are called and few chosen Matth. 22. 14. Lastly this Reason is wholly upon supposition the accusation without proofe who forceth on Christ It is his pleasure to take such and reproveth such as would hinder them and saith Suffer such to come they being of my Kingdom Matth. 22. The computation in the end is as weake as all the rest for it was so of old no new thing at all all are not Israel that are of Israel * Rom. 9. 27. and if the number of Israel were as the sand of the sea but a remnant shall be saved Reason III It is a practise that over throwes the body of Christ or holy temple of God for in time it will come to consist of naturall and carnall members amongst whom if any godly be they will be brought into bondage and become subjects of scorne and contempt and the power of government rest in the hands of the wicked Answ This is but onely said and that by one that may erre and be mistaken John Baptist though sent of God yet he cryeth as it is written
Word and Spirit dwell yet are not come out of that state according to his sense Now to grant this is more likely to keep up the state of Antichrist and to deny this sure he dare not Let him see how he will avoid his own Argument upon his own ground Surely some have seene this and thereupon have held no faith no grace no Christ till so separated from Babylon Sure he must either renounce his reason or fall under the condemnation of it if he be true to his owne principle In this particular that now I set downe if my judgement faile me not he will never be able to avoid it by granting the Scriptures translated to be the Word of God and usefull in the Church which Babylon hath translated keepeth and holdeth forth and buildeth upon Now for him and others to receive hold and keep the same and to acknowledge them as Gods it must sure be according to his reason a keeping up the state of Antichrist by granting this foundation to his building and this corner-Stone Jesus Christ for of the Scriptures its said and are built upon the foundation of the Prophets and Apostles Christ the chiefe corner Ephes 2. 20. Stone But now in stead of the Word of the Lord for proofe of what he had affirmed in his reason he giveth onely his owne saying to very little purpose surely That Church saith he where Baptisme is the true Ordinance of God as if God had some false Ordinances in the administration of it Observe he hath got the word true to helpe him along that Church saith he by the rules of the Gospel is a true Church what rule or rules he meaneth is hard to guesse he setteth downe no place of Scripture Againe it is observable how he closeth with them he opposeth making the Word and Sacraments infallible marks of the Church yea one of them alone to wit Baptisme And yet he holdeth a Church may be Christs without Baptisme as in his book may be seen He inferreth further and thereby will prove for want of Scripture that if Baptisme be true the Church is true I aske Master I. S. if the Apostate ten tribes were a true Church for it is certaine their Circumcision was true So as here the Reader may see how he maketh the Church and Baptisme such speciall relatives as the one gives being to the other as the father doth to the sonne c. and yet he holdeth an unbaptized Church as we noted before He addeth further That it being the Church of God it is sinne in any not to communicate with her A confident charge but where is the proofe alas it is altogether wanting Communion with a Church is the question to which I shall say a little and leave the Reader to judge First I distinguish of Churches secondly of Communion Churches are either pure and undefiled or otherwise corrupt and in sundry things polluted Communion it is either generall consisting in owning acknowledging and standing for or it is speciall and peculiar in fellowship and worship Now for a Church corrupt and defiled generall communion only can lawfully be extended especially if she be greatly defiled for we may not partake of others sins though we are to own their vertues and good things that are in them and hold relation to them while they 1 Tim. 5. 22. hold the head but with a pure Church we may and ought to extend communion in all the parts of communion But the question being of communion with a corrupt Church I say we are to hold generall communion with the same and to owne it for the relation it hath to Christ so long as it holdeth the head And if particular communion in Ordinance can be extended without partaking in sinne we should not be wanting that way as occasion is offered But though with such a Church in generall and further as we can without sinne yet not with her in sinne we are to keepe our selves pure as before And in this case that is very considerable Revel 18. 4. Come out of her my people that ye partake not of her sinnes So that here I both grant and also deny that which I. S. affirmeth I grant if it be a Church though corrupt yet so long as it hath relation to Christ it is sinne not to owne her and acknowledge her relation I wish I. S. were free from this sinne that condemneth as no Churches of Christ all the Churches of God in the world onely those of his way I pray him to consider of it I also deny what he saith being referred to that speciall communion in ordinance and worship which we are bound no further unto then as we may partake with them without sinne and defilement the seven thousand could not might not ought not to have bowed to Baal or kissed the calves or gone to Gilgal to transgresse Rom. 11. 4. Hosea 13. 2. Hosea 4. 15. Amos 5. 5. nor yet joyne with those Priests made of the lowest of the people yet were they the Church of God and Circumcision and other of Gods Ordinances might be done lawfully of them Yea those of the Church did not sinne in abstaining communion in Judah it selfe in the time of Ahaz and Manasses for as in going to Gilgal so in going to Hierusalem they should have transgressed All which considered I conceive it will appeare to be very fabulous which I. S. affirmeth of Infants Baptisme keeping up the state of Antichrist for indeed the contrary is rather true That the deniall of them right to that holy Ordinance doth rather keepe up that state by the hardning them that otherwise would come out And also by the great confusion like another Babel which this opinion and practice produceth All which I leave to the judgement of the godly wise Reason VI It is unlawfull to baptize Infants for that is to build faith upon humane testimony in matters fundamentall for such as are baptized in infancy have no other way to satisfie themselves or others but the bare word of man that must stand in the place of the Word of God for such their truly receiving so holy an Ordinance of God Answer This Reason is very unlike I. S. he promiseth faire for gravity and wisdome c. but surely such a shallow and unsound Argument was never framed before I suppose it is not his owne but that he hath received it without consideration from some one that he was highly taken withall and being a new thing it pleased him and he set it amongst his reasons why he would not have children baptized that they might be something for number though nothing in substance and weight His scope is easie but his expressions darke and covert I shall goe over them by way of quere First I would faine know what faith he here meaneth whether Historicall or of some other kinde Secondly I would know what he meaneth by building faith upon humane testimonies Thirdly I would know what he meaneth
that hath but common reason in him will see it is to no purpose at all But that other happily may stand him in stead and the scope of that is to declare the interest of Christs Church to all things according to the Scriptures direction alwaies provided And what then then people may make themselves the Church of Christ or pretend at least so to be and then they are so interessed forthwith in all things The Romish Church can make as large claim as they in this matter and speak as much for themselves surely if persons in earthly cases could do the like there would not be a few found in such claimes and pretences but they would by wise men be thought sitter for Bedlam then any place else In further answer I say that was spoken of the Church of Corinth and so is true of all other Churches gathered and instated by Christ in an orderly way by such means and instruments as had authority from him But what is this to persons that want this jnstating by such instruments in such a way Truly no more then it could for those that called themselves Jewes and were not or then it would have availed Rev. 3. 9. the Heathen of old to have injoyed the priviledges with the Jewes in Gods holy things in particular of building the Temple to whom it was told it was not for them to build c. It cannot be imagined that such large priviledges should according to due order Esr 4. 3. appertain to such the Scripture being wholly silent concerning their right It is but usurpation for such to challenge such a condition of being called to be Christs Church as it was in them that said they were Apostles and were not as these in like kinde are Rev. 2. 2. not the Churches of Christ rightly gathered and constituted whatever they pretend to be I suppose it will also appear to the Reader that this Scripture serveth nothing at all to purpose in the matter in hand But J. S. supposing to have made some proofe in the aforesaid matter saith that by vertue of this union they have with their head Christ the body thus joyntly considered hath the power and authority of Christ within themselves to chuse or make use of any one or more of her members as occasioa offers to administer Baptisme upon the whole body and so upon themselves in the first place as a part of the same This is the great conclusion drawn from the former premises but it is onely said for alas that before is no proofe at all of the matter what precept or example is there in the Scripture for the warrant of this certainly none at all for this is unwritten tradition and I dare say as pure popery as any can be for men thus to faine cases and then to give authority in such cases as the holy Scripture is altogether silent in But saith he further if any please to take his word for it such may be as truly said to be sent and authorized by Christ thus as of old by Christ in his humane body even so now in his divine and spirituall body that is this unbaptized company pretending to be a Church Now I marvell whether there be any so simple as to beleeve such doctrine as this that a company of unbaptized persons are Christs divine and spirituall body and that so as what they order persons to doe in the matter of ordinances in particular of Baptisme though it doe not concurre with the Scriptures is as true and reall a mission and as full authority as the holy Apostles had that were sent of Christ himselfe and beside that such high termes of divine and spirituall should be proper to this fained body and onely the term humane should belong to Christs person when he was manifest in the world it is sure very much and at least sheweth plainly how wonderfully hee is conceited of his owne Idea This strange doctrine he will prove by a reason thus Wheresoever a Church doth rise in her true constitution I aske from whence is this rising from the bottomlesse pit I never heard of Hierusalem Revel 19. 2. but comming down from heaven But Babylon and this little Teret of it may rise happily from the earth Againe in her true constitution I say it is likely to be a very true constitution without Baptisme There he saith are her ordinances Yes but in an orderly way they must be acted it is not for Saul to sacrifice But saith he there is power also to administer the same but sure not without right or lawfull instruments God is the God of Order But the 1 Cor. 14. 37. reason that killeth all dead before it and concludeth the matter fully is this That where a thing is wanting there must be of necessity a beginning to reduce the thing again into being this is the conclusion of all And is not J. S. come to a faire Haven after his sore travell and great hazzard Necessity hath no law But where is that due order and orderly way of seeking of God which he before spake of Truly it is a sad case that any by their erroneous judgement and following their own way should bring themselves into such a snare or straight and then plead necessity to doe that which is not lawfull for them and think necessity will beare them out Disobedient Saul by his evill course had brought himselfe into a great straight whereupon he adventured to doe that which did 1 Sam. 13. 12. not appertain to him to doe but for all he pleaded necessity it would not serve his turne for he was told by the Prophet from the Lord That hee had done foolishly and that to obey was better then sacrifice v. 13. Thus saith he I have shewed my judgement that if Baptisme be wanting where it is to be had namely in the holy Scriptures Secondly how from thence to be obtained by Gods calling an unbaptized people into an holy fellowship with Christ from whom though unbaptized they have power to assume as a Church so the Ordinance of Baptisme upon themselves Now courteous Reader this is the sum of the matter consider of it and see if it be not a faire judgement and well grounded and whether thou canst judge this to be any other then Popish divinitie which the Romanist can say in the like kind for their course for cannot they say as much for making Christs reall body in the Eucharist by hoc est corpus meum as these can say for making his divine and spirituall body as they call it for they pretend the Scriptures as these doe they assume to themselves such a state to be Christs Church and to have such power in what they doe even as these doe but truly as theirs is onely pretended and not reall Even so in like is this meerely faigned and not otherwise But he saith he will cleare up this matter Indeed it needs clearing for it is yet
Ordidinance where is J. S. then For truly his collective reason is as much as if a person opposing Circumcision as none of Gods Ordinance because of the Idolatry of the Jews should have reasoned thus If the Israelites be Idolaters and the Calves Idols and no gods and the Priests Priests to them that are no gods then is Circumcision 2 Chro. 13. 9. of the same nature also as are the Calves Priests and Jeroboams whole way of Dan and Bethel And for proof should say as J. S. doth that it was the power of Jeroboams way or of his Calves that carried on the whole form of worship and proceed and the power and Ordainer and the Ordinance ordained must needs be of one stamp if one so then so the other Had not such a way of arguing overthrown Circumcision then aswell as Baptisme now Let J. S. be Judge himself and let him tell me whether he would not have distinguished in the case Againe I will propose another instance in the way of his Argument Thus the Author and thing ordained or made must be of one and the same nature if one be Antichristian the other also for so he hath proved be saith But the Authors namely those that translated the Scripture were according to his opinion Antichristians and there be additions and detractions as in some translations there are Now the thing made or translated must be of the same nature with the Translators that were the Authors and if it were added for proof it was the power of their Antichristian spirits that carried on the whole worke and proceed thereof and so conclude as before both are one and the same If J. S. now would in this stand to his own ground where would he be he would be as far to seek for new Scriptures as they are for Church and Ordinances that hold there neither is nor yet can be any in the World or as he himself was not long since for Baptisme But truly it is much to be pittyed to see such ignorance in men professing knowledge that they cannot distinguish betwixt Gods Ezek. 4. 4. posts and mens when mens are set by Gods That they cannot distinguish between Gods Ordinances and mens inventions and aditions that they cannot put difference betwixt the Arke and Dagon or his Temple in which he being placed fell before the Arke I would 1. Sam. 5. 4. faine know of J. S. when Baptisme that was Christs seased and lost its being and Antichrists Baptisme came in the roome of it sure he cannot tell But I must here tell J. S. that the power of Jesus Christ supports and carries his Ordinances in the midst of the deepest defections that Satan ever hath or could bring upon the same wherein his glorious power doth appear although J. S. would spoile him of it by faining that he is overcome his Church Ordinances destroyed Gods people of old remained his people his Church his Church his Ordinances his Ordinances as particularly Circumcision in the midst of the greatest defilements that ever attended that dispensation In like manner it is so now under al the defilements of Antichrist in particular Baptisme of which is our question as also the Church our Lord Christ his power being no way lessened for the upholding of it nor his faithfulnesse failed for the preservation thereof according to his promise who hath said The gates Mat. 16. of hell shall not prevaile against it It were good for J. S. to study well that place 2 Thes 2. 4. Where Antichrist is foretold sitting in the Temple or Church of God and if he would please but to take notice that there is difference between Gods Temple in which he sitteth and him sitting there as there was betwixt the Arke in the Temple of Dagon in which the Arke was he happily would change his thoughts and be of another minde and so come to have more respective thoughts of the power and faithfulnesse of Jesus Christ then now he seemeth to have Truly I suppose these foolish inferences of J. S. will appear to be but meer fantasies without any ground tending only to deceive the simple for any indifferent Reader will be able to distinguish betwixt Religion and corruption betwixt Ordinances and the evills by way of addition or detraction that attends them Circumcision was of God and it was the hand and power of God that carried it forth in those evill times The Idols Calves and Jeroboams Priests and his whole way as they were of and from another so another hand and power carried them along Even as in like manner Baptisme and other like things being of God are preserved and carried by a hand and power of God whereas that universall Church generall Ministery and government with those other forms of Churches Provinciall Diocesan and proportionall Ministery and Government Ceremonies with additions and detractions innumerable as they are from another fountain so they are carried in another channell and by another power abetted and set on namely by the power of the man of sin the author and inventer of them So far shall suffice in this But saith J. S. praising of himself He hath proved that if one be Antichristian the other is Antichristian By what Scripture he hath proved it none can tell And saith he To dream of any approved Church by the Word of God under the defection and yet a part of the same is for a man to look for a man in the Moon and to suppose a Church to consist in such matter as is destructive to it self and therein to hold a successisn of truth is against the light of nature and a keeping of the Pope upon the Throne of Christ whether he will or no. Answ Is not this high Divinity which I. S. belcheth out of his self-sick stomack against the people and truth of God Is it not a sore and heavy charge but it is well it is but said and not proved Now least any as simple as he that said it should believe it because it is said and that by a person venerable in their way I shall take the pains to examine the respective charges as they are laid down First saith he To dream of an approved Church by the Word of God A. Sure he dreamed himself in what he fathered thus upon his opposites who do not hold an approved Church in such a sense as J. S. seemeth to intend that is a pure and spotlesse Church But they hold according to the Scripture a Church to be really true and Gods though corrupt and greatly defiled I suppose he will not question but that Judah not to speak of Israel was the Church of God in Manasses time and in other times when Idolatry greatly prevailed yet not approved as pure and spotlesse but reproved for corruption and defilement yea and visited with the rods of men Psal 89. 3 2. because of the same that she might be reformed so as to be again approved of her
a personall succession again where will their succession of truth lye All these being returned home to J. S. their master he will see or at leastwise any indifferent person will be able to see that Pope Jone will help nothing in the case to hinder the continuance of the Churches being nor yet of the being of Baptisme with which Pope Jone medled not nor was any way concerned this matter at the most is but a relique of the dram before I. S. further tells us that when he speakes of personall succession of truth as in reference to Church and Church Ordinances he looks upon this in the power and authority tbat beares the same Answ Now J. S. seemeth something to awaken out of his dreame and to speak sense what ever sense he have in it his personall succession of truth set aside when he speaketh of the Church and Ordinances their continuance he looketh upon this in the power and authority that beares the same Now surely the power and authority that beares the Church and Church Ordinance up is the power of him that beareth up all things by his mighty power Jesus Christ our Heb. 1. 3. Lord against the gates of hell that preserves his Church as hee did his Arke when Dagon fell in his owne Temple Is it not a wonderfull Matth. 16. thing that he should conceit that Antichrist should by any power of his support Christs Church and the Ordinances thereof that with all his might and force indeavoureth their destruction and ruine but in vaine for Christ is stronger that with his mighty power supports them But J. S. looking awry cannot see any other bearing up the Church and Ordinances then by Antichrist and the Pope that are trampling it down what they can fitting there as God for by no meanes will he be brought to distinguish and put difference betwixt Gods Temple and the Man of sinne sitting in it but like Nicodemus he will say How can it be Joh. 3. For saith he To hold a Church to be true in regard of being you must mind and not of purity and the Ordinances their administred the true Ordinances of God and to leave this and to set up a way of worship apart from it and to deny communion with it is in his darke understanding a meere Schisme and the overthrow of all Order in Religion Answ I am both glad and sorry Glad that J. S. is no Apostle so as we are not bound to beleeve his bare word unlesse we will Sorry I am that he hath so dark a judgement and understanding as in this he doth discover For first I say a Church may be true and the Ordinances true that is Gods and yet both corrupt so as they cannot be partaken with all without sin In such a case there is to be a with-drawing from them in regard of particular communion in as much as we are to keep our selves pure not doing evill for good ends Yea a Church in regard of membership may be left and that without the said Churches consent as plainly appeareth by the example of the Apostles and others that left the Church of Israel of old and that while it was a Church And God himselfe calleth his people out of Babylon Rev. 18. 4. though the Church and Ordinances have a being there in as much as there can be no remaining there but there will be a partaking in sinne So as leaving particular communion and personall relation of membership I conceive is very necessary and according to God after the manner of all the Reformed Churches that have come out of Babylon renounced communion with her in the things of God because of the evills attending of them lest they should be defiled As on the other side they have drawn nigh to God in the purity of his wayes and worship as those did that left Israel in the time of their Apostacie and came to the Lord and his pure worship in Judah But thus to doe namely to leave a Church and Ordinances greatly polluted and defiled and to worship God together purely apart from that corrupted estate with-holding fellowship is in his dark judgement a meer Schisme alas poor dark judgement such a Schisme as he hath oft made and those of his way are full of in their own sense The holy Apostles and beleeving Jewes were Schismaticks in his account and all the Reformed Churches and Christians that have forsaken Babylon and are come out of her are all Schismaticks in his dark judgement But no marvell he so accounteth of these latter seeing by his reckoning they are not baptized Christians Truly he and those of his way by light and cleare judgements will be discerned to be even such themselves for doing as they doe Now to that latter part of this charge That it is the overthrow of all order in Religion I aske him which way it appeareth so to be sure he cannot tell for if it be well minded it will be found to be a speciall meanes of the preserving of religion decayed and a repayring of it and of reducing it to the first purity and an utter putting away all rust and defilement and therefore the Apostle giveth in charge having forewarned of the great defection of Antichrist not to begin a new but to keep the old Ordinances according Thes 2. 15. to the purity they were delivered to us J. S. his course I suppose is guilty of the overthrow of all order in Religion not onely what is of God remaining and afoot in the world but even of that also which is held forth in the Word in erecting a new Church and dispensing new Ordinances without a new Commission which never any did before After this he tells us of his learning Christ which sure is very little in regard of order as his way and course doth shew So far faith he as I have learned Christ men are to stand in their places and use all means to reclaim and reform corrupt Churches he meaneth by the word of truth Very good But what if they will not reform and all means which we can use availeth not This being done saith he so as of necessity I must leave off communion with them So as it seemeth communion may be left with a Church that is Gods because of evill and obstinacie in the same Then in such a case he thinketh for he onely giveth us his thoughts without Scripture he must disclaim them and separate from them To which I say it is but upon the condition of their non-repentance which challengeth sometime of waiting but that such a Church he ought to disclaim and separate from he holdeth First I would know whether he may do this while it remaineth a Church of Christ If he say yea then I ask him What is become of that which in his dark judgement was a meer Schisme But if he say nay not till the Church ceases to be Truly that will be a very hard matter for him to
was preserved and not destroyed the earth helping the woman against the rage of the Dragon Sure there can no sense hence be gathered of hell gates prevailing to destroy her Lastly Act. 8. 1. It speaketh of Sauls making havock of the Church and persecuting of it but this tended greatly to the increase of it and not to the destroying of it Certainly I. S. will not think much lesse say hell gates at this time prevailed against the Church indeed it never did for that was alwaies true which was said of the Church of old Many a time have they afflicted me from my youth may Ps 129. 1. 5. Israel say but they have not prevailed against me the righteous Lord hath cut the cords of the wicked in sunder I suppose I. S. hath but small judgement and lesse aim to bring such Scriptures as these to prove that hell gates have prevailed against the Church in any Scripture sense It were far better for him to hold the continuation of the Church according to the sure Word and faithfull promise of Christ and if he would not acknowledge her continuance under the apostacy and defection aforesaid then to indeavour to find her continuance some where else But in regard this would overthrow his new unbaptized Church and proceed that way he rather chuseth to asperse Christ of unfaithfulnesse in his promise then by acknowledgement to give him the glory of it In regard of the former matter J. S. seemeth to have had an eye to a collaterall reason which he setteth down thus Where was their Church before it came out of the defection First let it be observed how he shaketh hands with the Romanists that use to say in like manner Where were the reformed Churches before Luther But in further answer to this demand I say it was in regard of the matter of it in Babylon as the seven thousand were in the apostacy of Jeroboam out of which apostacy of Babylon God called them forth Rev. 18. 4. And so by the efficacy of that heavenly voice they being drawn forth they served God in the purity of his Ordinances a part as the Israelites that left Jeroboam and his Idol-worship 1 Thes 1. 9. at Dan and Bethel and served God at Hierusalem These turned from those Idoll waies in Babylon To the pure service of God in Sion and so kept according to the injunction the Ordinances as they were delivered to them 2 Thes 2. 15. This question is of the nature of what we have treated on before about leaving a corrupt Church for obstinacy in evill and therefore I shall not further trouble my self nor the Reader about it being assured it cannot reach so high as make good any sense of the destroying of the Church by persecution to which it is added here I shall only here minde the Reader that our question is not of one particular Church but of the state of the Church remaining in one place or other with few or many in freedome and purity or in bondage and corruption according eo various conditions and changes that attends her in the world wherein she is in all of those conditions preserved by Almighty God I. S. addeth in his further proceed saying That which once was in such a way of being and ceases for a time and then comes to the same estate againe is and may truly be said ever to continue as Mat. 22. 31. with Luk. 20. 38. In which sense the Church may be said ever to continue for though she be cast down at one time yet god will raise her againe at another so as she shall never be prevailed against so as to be utterly destryed Answ This is plaine nontsense to me first granting then denying and so the whole amounting to just nothing but a meer conceit Here is the Church in a way of being here is the Church seasing to be for a time here is the Church comming to live have being again here is the Church that ceased to be for a time affirmed untruly to have ever a being just as the Temple had when it was destroyed here is the Church cast downe that is without being for so he must mean else he deceiveth here is the Church said to be raised up by God againe and her being restored to her here is concluded the Church was never prevailed against so as to be utterly destroyed Truly truth is strong and prevaileth I. S. speaketh not as of himself but as overcome by the truth which he fought to darken and turn aside but at last is forced to confesse it as they were that had hand in crucifying Christ that said Truly this was the Son of God when they had before crucified him So Mat. 27. 54. he in like manner is in the end forced after all to confesse that the Church was never prevailed against so as to be utterly destroyed But I shall here observe how that what he before said might be made a rationall matter if it were rightly applyed as thus That which was once in such a way of being that is to say pure and undefiled and for a time ceases so to be that is becomes corrupt and defiled like the faithfull City that became an harlot And Es 1. 21. then comes the same estate againe that is to her former purity and holinesse is and may truly be said ever to have a continuation In this sense I would joine with J. S. touching the Churches continuation for though she be corrupted at one time yet God will restore her to purity at another yea If by affliction she be diminished Ps 107. 39. Ps 105. 24. and made low at one time yet at another time God increaseth her like a flock of sheep In either of which senses she hath never been prevailed against so as to be destroyed but this genuine sense J. S. may not admit of for that it will not stand with his way and practice and therefore by multiplicity of expressions he would produce some thing namely That the Church may some time live and have a being and at another time die and lose her being and yet she shall never cease to be That is be prevailed against to be destroyed and this he thinketh to prove by alluding to a place or two of holy Scripture before quoted for confirmation of his conceit To which I answer those Scriptures indeed do seem to illustrate his sense and what he intendeth namely that the Church may be said ever to continue though at some time she ceased to be But how senselesse a thing it is thus to conceit will appeare if we minde the matter a little It is the resurection of the dead which is the case now as men die and are not and yet shall live again and be so the Church in like manner But may such and such men be said to have ever a continuance in the World which is our question and not to have been destroyed by death because they shall
please So as it must be the want of his new Baptisme or nothing and then I leave it to him to judge whether that be not the form of the Church necessarily according to his ground that gives the being thereunto Secondly if by such he meanes those he was an opponent of in the former matter of the Churches continuation and likewise Baptisme under Popish defection I shall adde a little in the way of defence First granting that such hold indeed no Church to wit rightly constituted as a right or lawfull Ministeriall Church without or before the matter of this Church is baptized Secondly denying that in so holding they make Baptisme the form of the Church as he inferreth and so make Baptisme the form there is more goeth to the proof of a matter then so His five Reasons might well have been spared by which he would prove Baptisme not to be the form of the Church till he had made that to appear to be of necessity the right consequence which sure he is never able to do for there was no right Ministeriall Church of old without Circumcision yet Circumcision was not the form of that Church an uncircumcised person was not to be admitted a member much lesse an officer Circumcision was then an externall qualification of the matter as in like manner is Baptisme now In this matter we shall have recourse to the first beginning of the Church of the new Testament and of Baptisme John the Baptist the forerunner of Christ sent of God to prepare the way of his Son according to Commission baptized much people as did also afterward the Disciples of Christ our Lord to him repaired our Lord to be baptized that righteousnesse might be fulfilled It may be observed by the way that this was in the Church of the Jewes Of these thus baptized was the Church of the new Testament begun whether the initiation of it be referred to the time before the passion of our Lord as to himself and the twelve with whom he brake bread or whether it be referred to the time after his resurrection when he gathered the 120. together and blessed them as is most Acts 1. proper let him take his choice and refer to which he will it was begun of the aforesaid baptized matter which is certainly to the life of the matter in hand in discovering that the matter of the Church was fitted by Baptisme before it was laid together As was the Church at the first rise of it so was the proceed those 120. baptized those that joyned with them being not before baptized as it is written they were baptized and added to the Church This first Church scattered by persecution became the instrument of increase and the first matter of many Churches which Churches by their instruments baptized such as received the faith and joyned into the Lord and thus was the Church and Kingdome of Christ spread throughout the World as the holy history doth shew And let J. S. or any of his way shew that there was ever any unbaptized Church or Congregation of the new Testament or that ever any unbaptized person was received into fellowship or that ever any unbaptized person after Baptisme was a foot in the World baptised or was authorized for to do it And lastly let him tell me whether the order of the new Testament as in another case he asked be not as strict in this case of Baptisme as it was in Circumcision of old when no uncircumcised might have part in the Church or fellowship in the Ordinances much lesse act Ordinances Esek 44. in way of dispensing of them to others And let him tell me whether a precept or example be not as necessary in all those cases as in that of baptizing Infants And lastly whether his practice of raising and beginning the Church of unbaptized persons do agree with the primitive practice of our Lord and his Apostles that began the Church of baptized matter as before J. S. propoundeth a second Reason of his opponents thus The Scripture speaketh of no Church before Baptisme To which he answereth as he did to that of the Gates of Hell not prevailing against the Church He must distinguish he saith A meer shift to blind his Reader and avoid the truth there needs no distinction at all in the case He would not take it well if any should distinguish in case of Infants Baptisme But what is his distinction it is betwixt the truth of the doctrine of Baptisme and the administration of it just as he did in the fore-named case as much as if he had said He must distinguish betwixt the Scripture that teacheth Baptisme and Baptisme or washing according to the Scripture In this first sense Baptisme or the doctrine of Baptisme as much as if he had said the holy word of God is before the Church What this is to the purpose is beyond my judgement nor yet that which followeth no Church according to the order of Christs Testament without it or before it No Church without or before the Scripture how this is to the matter in hand and what clearing or rather darkning there is in this distinction I leave the Reader to judge But now for the second part of the distinction Namely the outward administration of Baptisme that ever followeth the Saints joyning in fellowship by mutuall faith and agreement in the Doctrine wherein consists the stating of the Church in her conjoyning in Covenant which ever goes before in the administration of Baptisme and gives power and authority for the same so saith he in the first sense the Church is not before Baptisme but in the last it is Answ The summe and scope of this whole matter amplified and enlarged is utterly false being referred to the purpose for which J. S. doth bring it namely to prove an unbaptized Church or the Scriptures speaking of such Alas this is farre from proving the matter no not in a seeming way In this case it may be truly said from the beginning it was not so The matter of the Church was fitted outwardly by Baptisme as is before declared And the Scriptures give no president of such Church officer or member at any time such a proceed being cleane besides the Scriptures 2. J. S. deceiveth if not himselfe yet others in what he setteth down in referring that to the initiation of a Church which is onely true of the proceed The Church stated and on foot in the world according to God of baptized persons baptizeth others in way of proceed in a orderly way of administration so it was at the beginning and to begin otherwise is not according to the pattern So as not taking notice of the difference between right beginning and orderly proceed he is clean out and beside the truth and his distinction will appeare to be vain and to no purpose unlesse to deceive for as he setteth down that Baptisme ever followeth in regard of the administration of it the Saints joyning in
a truth fully held forth in the holy Scriptures that though all men since their fall in Adam Christ the new or second Adam excepted have been and are born in sinne and so under wrath that way yet a number have obtained such free grace as that though in another consideration they are and have been by generation the seed of promise holy and such as God hath and doth owne for his children even as hee did Isaack and the seed of Israel of old and the seed of the beleeving Gentiles who are under mercie and grace by promise as they are under sinne and wrath the other way And were and are high in the account of God what ever meane account J. S. hath of them of all which and who and what to beleeve let the upright heart to God judge as J. S. in the end of his Reason setteth down thinking belike he had said something that had concluded all But alas how farre these weak and inconsiderate reasons are from effecting what the Author of them intendeth any one that is not of a very childish understanding may be able to discerne for sure men must be childish indeed that in a matter of such weight and concernment as is their outward Christianity and relation to Christ that way shall by such reasons be so swayed as to renounce and reject the same CHAP. II. Containing a discovery of the vaine pretence of J. S. of finding Baptisme now lost and fallen out of the world as hee holdeth in the holy Scriptures of God I. S. At the end of pag. 37. saith That the substance of his former discourse had been about the subjects of Baptisme in which if any please to beleeve his own witnesse in his owne cause hee hath disproved the Baptisme of two sorts of persons First of beleevers infants Secondly the Baptisme in the defection of Antichrist being Baptisme in infancie also So as like a work-man indeed he hath overthrown the outward Christianity and relation to Christ that way priviledges of grace and Saintship and what not all which are of much concernment every manner of way unto men and that of all persons in the world onely those few so of late baptized by totall dipping Is not this Goliah like and can any marvell that we poore Israelites thus stripped and left naked are offended and complain being such losers and turned out of all Had he any great reason to complain as he doth in his Epistle and elsewhere in his book again and againe as pag. 40. Some have so wide mouthes open against them that wished them ever well Well indeed to unchristian them and to strip them of all relation to Christ externally quit them of all interest in the Covenant of God yea making them as without God in the world so casting them out that Ephes 2. 12. 1 Sam. 26. 19. they may goe and serve other gods And can he think much that they complaine of wrong What have they more He saith he will leave them to God to whom they must be accomptable for all their hard words But what are those hard words surely such as these that they say their way and course is erroneous a new invention having evill consequences attending of it that they are light and mutable in their courses and very censorious and is all this so great a matter and hard to be born Are not his words or those of his way farre more easie that condemns all the people and servants of Jesus Christ in the world for unbaptized the course and way of all Churches reformed or separate as Idolatrous and not of God only those of his way excepted though the said persons or Churches be endued with never so lively graces and walk never so sincerely and uprightly with good conscience in the way God hath made known to them But saith he I leave them to God to whom they shall give account for all their hard words Surely he forgetteth and doth not think of the hard censures and grievous condemnations that he and those of his way give and lay upon all that follow not their erroneous way and course In way of further complaint he saith Men doe as the Tyrants did of old And old story indeed and ill applyed but though he be not he saith certain of the truth of it he is certain that some are little better minded that labour to cover the godly with such filth as they vomit out of their self-sick stomacks To all which I say its more easie to see a moat in anothers eye then a beam in their own how doth J. S. and those of his way cover the godly and the Churches of Christ with the filth of their vomit which they cast forth and yet he wipeth his mouth as innocent and wonderfully as we see complaineth of others that have more cause to complaine of him for he can lay heavie burthens and grievous to be born making men no Christiant no Churches of Christ but Synagogues of Satan of the world Antichristians Idolaters and what not all which men must bear though never so innocent but now the least of these he will not indure to touch with his finger but he cryeth out bitterly but as their dealing is unequall in this even so it is in other things But now to return and leave this digression In pag. 38. he telleth us That this falling out so How is that That that the Baptisme of all persons and Churches in the world those few of his way excepted being void and null an Idoll and none of Christs It followeth saith he that we are now to seek for the Lords true Baptisme This is sure a wonderfull case indeed that the Baptisme of Christ should be thus lost and fallen out of the world Now saith he in a case so difficult as some would make it two things in speciall are to be inquired into First How or where to finde it Secondly how it may be obtained being found For the first If any Ordinance be so deceased and lost as we do not know where it is afoot in Gods way in the world a rare case Baptisme is thus lost and deceased in his opinion so as those that find themselves unbaptized may be made partakers of it What are they to do They are to go to Christ and his Apostles as the godly then did But I say Christ his Apostles have left the world and are in heaven I but saith he That is to the Scriptures which are the lively Oracles of God Ans And so they were when Christ and the Apostles were on the earth The spirit saith he speaking in them to a beleever Answ They stand in the place of Christ for advice and counsell and so they did then for both our Lord and the Apostles sent us to them and spake nothing but according to them But what of this Truly nothing to the purpose nor yet that which is added Namely That they have ability to furnish a man of faith
giveth being to all Order and Ordinances It doth give being of direction and warrant declaring what is good and lawfull and what not It acts nothing God requireth an orderly way and that is by the Church Now courteous Reader do but seriously consider how J. S. hath cleared the way of raising and beginning again Baptisme lost and fallen out of the world as he beleeveth and how he hath removed the difficulties in the way which he ealleth clouds that darken the skie See if thou do not yet finde it very dark and cloudy as ever and never the clearer for all the labour and pains he hath taken and whether his labour and travell herein hath been to any more purpose then the washing of the Blackmoore For first of all Whereas he referreth thee to the Scriptures as the Successours of the Apostles in his opinion First Thou seest the Scriptures were before the Apostles and the Apostles themselves were guided by them Secondly That the Scriptures are onely directive and act nothing at all neither can they and beside they do not direct to any such course as the constituting an unbaptized Church or authorizing unbaptized persons to baptize Thirdly Thou seest what great cause of doubt and question there is according to his opinion whether these Scriptures be the Scriptures of God and whether they have not lost their being having been so long in Babylon and in the hands of Antichristians especially if it be minded that they were by Antichristians translated into our native Tongue their translating must needs make them Antichristian and to be rejected as false as well as their Baptisme Where will J. S. be then do thou but think for the raising a new his Church and Baptisme which I would wish him and those of his way to consider of well But then in the second place God being to be sought as he holdeth in an orderly way according to what he hath declared as his judgement and this orderly way being by the Church rightly gathered and constituted to whom Christ hath committed the power Consider good Reader in the first place that if the Scriptures be not Antichristian as his opinion inforceth that they have in them no ground or warrant by any example or precept for such an unbaptized Church neither can such a supposed Church be orderly constituted or the proceed thereof orderly the Scripture being wholly silent concerning any such thing This conceit of so making Christs Church and so making Baptisme being a meer Popish Tenent and the proceed therin like unto theirs in such like cases So as this Ordinance of Christs Baptisme being according to his opinion destroyed in Babylon and there being no orderly Church of Christ in earth to be found as he holdeth nor no Christ Moses Eliah or Prophet from heaven appearing nor yet any that by Signes and Miracles can prove the truth of their Mission I conceive it necessarily followeth and I willingly leave all men free to judge of it That J. S. is yet for all his clearing in a great straight and under a dark cloud out of and from under which he will not be able to get unlesse he do as Saul did make bold to do that which is unwarrantable and so running before he be sent and doing that which God never spake any word about the which he shall do well to take further knowledge of CHAP. III. Containing a defence of the judgement of such as hold that Baptisme hath continued Gods Ordinance in the Apostacie of Antichrist notwithstanding the corruptions attending of it in way of Answer to the Cavils and Exceptions of J. S. against the same BEfore that J. S. could finish the matter in the former Chapter and clear it as he pretended to do he found some Tenents in his way as opposite to that pretended truth but indeed errour which he endeavoured to maintain the which he setteth down thus First such as stand for a personall succession Again thus A word or two to such as hold succession in the defection of Antichrist Again Such as hold Baptisme by personall succession as in pag. 39. may be seen To which I answer First That sure J. S. mistaketh himself being never able to make it appear that any person or persons do so hold So I might let him alone to contest with his own fancie But in as much as he may happily have met with some that hold the continuation of Baptisme as Gods Ordinance in that defection not in way of succession that being no way proper to an Ordinance returning home unto himself his phrase of succession as darkening the truth I shall apply my self to take knowledge of his scope and purpose First he saith Such have received a sufficient Answer that hold so in what he had writ before To which I answer Indeed if he might be his own Judge in his own cause it might be so It were much better that others should have said so and praised him then he thus his own work But what was it that he had proved before in his conceit That all the world are unbaptized onely he and those of his way Is he not a mighty Champion thus to nullifie and make void the Christianity of all Christians in the world It is more then Turks could ever do by all the force and power they had He hath yet a word or two more to say to such as hold contrary to his erroneous conclusion that Baptisme hath continued and doth continue Gods Ordinance c. And first he begins by way of Querie thus If they mean by defection the outward form of worship and Government Ecclesiasticall as he thinketh they do Answ Is defection of so hard and doubtfull sense with J. S. as he should querie thus and go by thinking he may know that defection or defilement pollution or corruption are of one nature and that there is a reall difference betwixt corruption and the thing corrupted between defilement and the thing defiled betwixt Religion and Gods Ordinances and mens additions to and detractions from the same They mean that the Ordinances and in particular Baptisme hath continued from the Apostles downward thorow all the apostacie and defilements that have attended Religion and it to this day Just as Circumeision of old did continue Gods Ordinance in the apostacie and defilements of the ten Tribes under Jeroboam and likewise in the time of Manasses in Judah This is their meaning and what then Then saith he all the power and authority that ever carried out any Administration or constituted Ordinance depends on the same Just as Circumcision depended on the Calves in Jeroboams apostacie And if so saith he then the Ordainer and Ordinance ordained are both of one nature Yea they are both of one nature God is the Author he is spirituall and Baptisme the thing ordained so also If one be saith he Antichristian the other is also Antichristian Strong lines without proof What if neither be Antichristian neither the Authour nor
fellowship c. this is onely true of the proceed of the Church as before but this joyning is to be of baptized matter as it was at the beginning which necessarily calleth either for a person from heaven as in the instance of John or the continuance of baptized persons in the world from John downward as is the case now though J. S. will not acknowledge the same The sum of the distinction he maketh to be this in the first sence the Church is not before the Scriptures In the last sense it is before Baptisme utterly untrue as before J. S. telleth us his distinction being observed we are not to deny a Church to be a Church though the Scriptures doe not so call it So the Scriptures of which he spake so great things in case of raising Baptisme lost are now become deficient and we may be wiser then they teach us and call a people a Church though they doe not so call them or teach us so to doe and we are not so ingaged to speak as the Word of God His reason of this strange divinity is the Church of the Old Testament and many of the new were Churches before they were so called But I say they were not rightly gathered Churches before they were baptized neither doth the Scriptures give that appellation to any in a relative way to Christ and we may not be wise above what is written Cornelius and his friends coming together were no right orderly gathered Church before Baptisme neither doth the Scripture so call them After all said that may be he demandeth why it may not be so that a Church may be a Church before Baptisme be administred why may not children be baptized I would aske him let him tell me that I will tell him why Againe he saith a Church is so a Church before Baptisme as that the end of her union is for communion J. S. at the last doth in effect in a modest way give up the cause A Church so a Church That is in another way then at the beginning it was when it was first instated Againe in another way then according to a right Constitution and orderly way of serving God Again is a Church so as a betrothed Virgin is a wife before the day of her Espouslas and playeth the Harlot in the mean time and so defileth the marriage bed So is an unbaptized Church a Church of Christ After this he is up with the substance of his five Reasons before alledged to prove that Baptisme was not the forme of the Church but the Covenant And what then for I will not meddle with his Reasons be they right or wrong A Church may be in Covenant and fellowship before Baptisme be administred so as Cornelius and his friends were But I say such a Church can never administer Baptisme according to God unlesse they had a man sent to them as Iohn was sent or as Peter was to Cornelius and his friends He is pleased to call such a Church whom the Scripture calleth not so But what he here setteth down he doth as formerly but say it and not prove it so as we need not much stand upon it A People are a Church by covenant he saith to which Ordinances are annexed But the matter of this Church is to be first outwardly sitted by Baptism An orderly way is necessary and that is by persons sent of God as was John here he deceiveth again affirming that of his so a Church which is onely true of a Church stated and on foot according to God in the world as was the Church of the new Testament baptized and so the matter outwardly sitted by John before the building was erected He quoteth Gen. 17. 11. Ezek. 16. 8. Act. 2. 41. Ephes 4. 5. and concludeth thus So here was a Church before Ordinances or before ever Baptisme was administred either by John the Baptist or the Apostles To which I answer in regard of those two places of the old Testament alledged in this matter in question It is at least as far off as the proving the baptizing of Infants from Circumcision or their being baptized of old to Moses in the cloud and sea which he 1 Cor. 10. accounteth nothing to the purpose as indeed this is little to the purpose They use to ask in the instance before when produced whether that Baptisme of the cloud c. was the Baptisme of the new Testament I in like manner ask him whether those were the ministeriall Churches of the new Testament Alas this matter is too far fetcht I could tell him of a Church and a great one too without faith or the profession of it namely that gathered by Demetrius and his fellow Crafts-men Act. 19. 25. 46. he happily will count it to no purpose truly so is his matter here As for those instances in the new Testament sure he was much over-seen in them and very inconsiderate Those Act. 2. 41. had broken bread and prayed and were baptized before they were a Church As for the Church of Ephesus no question but that was also baptized in like manner and he might from that place as well prove a Church to be before faith as before Baptisme by any thing I can perceive Certainly he had little aim in bringing such places of Scripture to prove a people to be a Church of the new Testament before Baptisme was administred to them at least that it should be so before Johns Baptisme that according to the Commission of God administred Baptisme to fit the matter of the Church before ever it was laid into form A further Objection he setteth down thus Some say from Act. 2. 41. they were added to the Church after they were baptized What is his Answer If it were so they should neither put on Christ nor yet be baptized into one body nor to the true profession of the Father Son and holy Ghost c. directly against these Scriptures Gal. 3. 27. 1 Cor. 12. 13. Matth. 28. 19. Answ I am very sorry to see such weaknesse in persons pretending to and promising much strength of knowledge For First all those that John Baptist baptized could neither put on Christ nor be baptized into one body nor into the true profession of the Father c. by his account and reckoning and so his practice of baptizing was contrary to those Scriptures by his reckoning Was not John Baptist to blame Secondly how appeareth it that if persons sent of God as was John of old as is necessary to raise Baptisme if it were lost out of the world as they hold baptizing according to their Commission that those they baptize cannot put on Christ nor be baptized into one body nor into the true profession of the Trinity onely because J. S. saith so without any shew of ground For Thirdly those Scriptures cited have no such thing in them certainly to the judgement of any rationall man neither can it be imagined that there is any let in regard of any of them why a person sent of God should not baptize before the Church be formed For that in Acts 2. 41. he saith It is onely declarative of the great increase of the Church through Gods goodnesse To which I answer That it declareth plainly that they were of and by that Church baptized that they were added unto in as much as the Church receiveth no unwashen ones If it were questioned whether the Church receive them before she baptize them or baptize them before she receive them I would give my thoughts that in strictnesse of concluding neither are first for these are so interwoven that they go together are unseparable As thus persons beleeving being unbaptized the Church openeth her arms to receive them but before she can fully imbrace them they must be washed and so made like the rest of the body There is a different case to be taken knowledge of First of the seed of the Church by generation I mean they are of the Church first and baptized for righteousnesse sake because they are of the Church and for the end before specified Secondly the case of converted Infidels their accesse to the Church and Ordinances is as before as it was in like manner of old in Israel the infants were circumcised because they were a part of Israel that they might answer the whole But the Converts of the Nations they were circumcised that they might be of the Church and have fellowship in the same The case I conceive to be even so now which I note in way of digression as a touch to be Exod. 12. 48. considered of though happily J. S. will think it to no purpose There is another Argument which he setteth down and maketh answer unto all the difference amounteth but to that of the circumstance of time and hath nothing in it substantiall I shall not make the difference greater but shall leave J. S. to his constituting causes of his unbaptized Church and shall forbear to trouble him or my self or the Reader any further but leave all to the judgement of the godly wise FINIS ERRATA PAg. 11. l. 20. for Infants r. Intents p. 13. l. 16. for shrine r. shrinke p. 14. l. 36. for and priviledge r. a priviledge p. 45. l. 34. for constitation r. constitution