nothinge to beware in him selfe of y t foly let him marke these that folowe The chief Authoritie beinge acknowleged and confessed â—at fo 101. whether theÌ„ he were called by either of those names that you deny or no it is not of greate importance M. Hardinge seemeth in part willingly to yeeld Iew. 220 Againe It was as easy a matter for Christ to geue Peter the Power and Title bothe togeather as to geue him the power alone without the Title Here I can not chuse but answer some what though for desire of shortnesse I haue and must let many thinges passe which might be staied vpon Who doubteth but Christ in deede might haue geuen the Title which M. Iew. findeth lackinge togeather with the power and Authoritie ouer the Church yet for so much as he hath not done it it becometh not vs to find any imperfection in his doinges but to honor them with all Reuerence though we see no reason for them or with all humilitie to thinke vpon them whether good causes may be brought furth and alleged for them or no. And truly concerninge this matter of which we speake we may rightly iudge y t because weyght and worthinesse is in the Thinges them selues therfore he gaue the power to S. Peter As for Names and Titles because they are so easely geueu as appereth by styles of Noble men and Princes his maiestie was not ouer curiouse in them Yet he left not S. Peter without a name of honor also sayinge Thou shalt be called Cephas Io. 1. which is interpreted Petrus a rocke or Stone Which Title duly considered is of more weight and worthinesse than either the name of Head Rector Gouernor Prince Christ gaue S. Peter a Title of dignitie and power or vniuersal Bishope Which as they signifie a Preeminence aboue others so do they not warrant a Continuance a Stedfastnes a sure Ground to buyld vpon and a Principall and Chiefe Stone in the house of God as Cephas or Petros which are to say a Rocke doe for our Sauyour expressed it in the hearinge of the twelue and sayed to S. Peter only and specially Thou art Peter or a Rocke Mat. 16. and vpoÌ„ this rocke will I buyld my Church and the gates of hell shal not preuaile against it And to thee will I geue the keyes of the kingdome of heauens and what thinge soeuer thou byndest vpon Earth shal be bound in heaueÌ„ what thinge soeuer thou loosest vpon Earth shal be loosed in Heauen Mary this Title of Vniuersall bishope or Head of the Church he gaue not him in plaine Termes But what of that He instituted effectuall Sacramentes yet he neuer called any of them by the name of Sacrament He taught men to beleue in the Trinitie yet the word is not found in all scripture The prophet Dauid calleth the Apostles Princes of all the Earth Psal 44. yet Christ which gaue them Authoritie ouer al sayeth no more but Goe and Preach the Gospell to al creatures Mar. 16. And againe I send you furth as sheepe emong wolues Mat. 10. Againe your master is one Christ and al ye are Brethern Mat. 23. and neuer called them Princes How then Doth M. Iew. find an imperfection in Christes doinges And thinketh he secretly in his hart that a Power is not well geuen without a Title And that if him selfe might haue ordered the matter To anger or troble the Catholikes M. Iewel makâ—th obiections against God himselfe the Name and Office should haue ben geuen both together from wheÌ„ce cometh this that a wretched and a vile creature hath to saye any thinge against his Maker The Catholike Church is coÌ„teÌ„ned The iudgement of y e highest Bishope in the earth is condeÌ„ned to hinder y â— Pope And aÌ„ger y â— Catholikes he is not afraied to dally with Almightie God him selfe And to aske of vs whether it was not an easy matter for him to geue Peter the Power and Title al together That when we shall confesse the Title was not geuen Either foolishe or blasphemous he may infer Ergo neither the Power Which argument If your selfe M. Iewel thinke to be naught what a wyse man are you so trimly to set it furth If it be good what a Miserable felow are you which dare so to speake of him that is Alwyse and Almightie As though it should not be agreable to geue a Power and not the Title Confesse that you haue ouershot your selfe in makinge so much of a weake reason Or looke to be Answeered accordingly when him selfe shal come in Iudgement for such purpose But let vs goe forward To this Church of Rome D. Har. Fo. 106. it is necessarie al that be faithfull to repaire and come togeather for the mightier Principalitie of the same Iren. lib. 3. cap. 3. Againe Andrew reâ—eiued not the Primacie but Peter Amb. 2. Cor. 12. Againe The Primacie or Principalitie of the Apostolike Chayre Aug. epi. 162. hath euermore bene in force in the Romaine Church Now marke what M. Iew. concludeth He answereth after his maner vnto euery one but he triumpheth not therein but in this sayinge M. Hardinge trippinge as he sayeth so nicely ouer the Doctors hath not yet once towched Iew. 254 Here begynneth the he and 〈◊〉 the thingethat was looked for and that he hath only and with such affiance take in hand For notwithstanding a great PoÌ„pe of wordes and the Names of manie holie Fathers yet hath he not hitherto shewed that the Bishope of Rome within the space oâ— six hundred yeares after Christ was euer called the Vniuersall bishope Or the head of the vniuersall Church VVhich thinge iâ— he could haue shewed I beleue he wold not so lightlie haue tripte it ouer See how ernest he is vpon the name of Vniuersall Bishop And how sore him selfe stumbleth at one simple word Tripping And how much he craketh before the end that the word he looketh for is not yet shewed But see in an other place D. Harding from the 108. leafe to the 119. of his boke proueth the necessitie of one head and authoritie of the Bishope of Rome By naturall reason By Appeales made to Rome By Excommunications directed from Rome By Elections of Bishopes confirmed by the Pope By his Approuinge or Disprouinge of Councels By restoringe of Bishopes wrongfulli coÌ„deÌ„ned to their Churches By Bishops and Patriarches reconciled vnto him And then goeinge forward in this matter Although it be a childish thinge saieth he to sticke at the name any thinge is called by yet I will bringe good witnesse for these names VNIVERSAL BISHOPE HEAD of the CHVRCH This I trow should cause M. Iew. to be more calme and quiet consideringe that he shall not tary longe but haue the very Names brought furth which he craueth so much for But he must make somewhat of nothinge aud seeme to be a Winner before his aduersarie ioyne with him And therfore he
directly to be considered The Answer of M. Iewell is this Princeps is often vsed for a man had in estimation for any Vertue Roome Or Singular Qualitie Ergo the Principalytie whiche S. Augustine attributeth to the Apostolike See consisteth not in Supreme GouerÌ„ment It woulde be ouer longe and tedious to teken vp all Examples by whiche I might euidently confirme this obiection of myne that Maister Iewell vseth the settinge further of one Trueth to the disgracinge or dissanulling rather of an other As when the Catholikes say to proue the Supremacie of the Bisshope of Rome Iulius restored Athanasius The .vij Example Iew. 290 M. Iewell Answereth Maximus also restored vnto him his Communion When they say The viij Example Touching faith and Religion the See of Rome hath alwaies bene consulted He Answereth Iew. 294 Marcellinus Dulcitius Bonifacius Euodius and other sent theyr questions to S. Augustine When they say The .ix. Example S. Peter was called Princeps or Chiefe of the Apostles He Answereth So we reed in Scriptures Princeps Familiae Princeps Legationis Princeps Coquorum that is the Chiefe of rhe house or stocke Iew. 302. the Chiefe of the Embassage the Chiefe of the Cookes When the Catholikes say The .x. Example S. Peter the Master of the whole world apointed S. Iames to be Bisshope of Hierusalem Iew. 303 He Answereth That vnto Michael is committed the nation of the Iewes But Land and Sea and all the habitation of the world is committed to S. Paule When they say The .xi. Example that Rome is the moste notable and chief Church of the worlde He Answereth that Cicero to blase the nobilitie of that Citie calleth lucem orbisterrarum atâ—ue arcem omnium GentiuÌ„ Iew. 304 the light of the world and the Castle of all nations To make an end when they say out of S. Ambrose The .xii. Example That Damasus the Pope is called the Rector and Ruler of the house of God To put the mater out of al doubt see what he answereth therevnto But to put the mater out of doubt let vs consider whether the selfe same forme of Speach Iew. 306 haue bene applied to any others in like sorte And then he telleth where other Bisshopes haue bene sayed to be Rulers in the Church But doth this kinde of Auswer either satisfie the Obiection Or Determine the Trueth Or quiet a doubtful minde Doth not this kinde of Reasoning bring vs rather into perplexities that it may not be knowen how to be resolued in any mater Is there any fitter waye for the Antichrist to worke by Antichrist high way for 〈◊〉 then by Forme and Phrases of Speache to confound all Faith and Religion Doe you beleue M. Iewel that Christ is the Sonne of God But doe you beleue that he is the natural Sonne of his Father of the same Substance Eternitie with him If you doe so in deede what say you to this Argument that Iudges in y e Scriptures are called Goddes Ex. 22 and that the frindes and Seruantes of God are called Goddes psal 81. Would this put the mater out of doubt that Christe is not the Sonne of God I meane by Nature because you coulde finde it oute after you had considered it where the selfsame form of speache is applied to others in like sort And where suche as are not the naturall Children of God are called yet the Children of God Christ saueth vs in Form of Speache S. Paule sayeth to Timothie Doeinge so thou shalt saue thy self 1. Tim. 4. and them that heare thee And would you conclude herevpon that the Power of sauinge is all one in them bothe because the Forme of the worde is all one Or that it is not properly and worthely veryfyed of Christe because it is but improperly attributed to S. Timothie Consider then I praie you M. Iewel whether this will put the mater oute of doubt if in Refelling the Sense of some one place whiche pleaseth you not you bringe a lyke Forme of Speache vsed in an other place And without further probation require to haue the vnderstandinge which your Aduersaie gathereth of his witnesse to be reformed accordinge to the meaninge of the Sentencies which you allege As because Princeps that is Chiefe is vsed in bothe places whether you say Princeps Apostolorum or Princeps Coquorum Therefore to conclude that the Chieftie of S. Peter Emonge the Apostles was no other thinge then the Chieftie of N. emonge the Cookes Beware therefore Christen Reader of M. Iewell And especially in those places whiche as they make moste for the Catholyke Faith so hath he no other refuge for sauinge hym selfe from Subscribinge vnto them but this very Simple one and Feeble to seeke where lyke Phrases may be founde of an other Sense yet and meanynge thereby to bringe in to doubt or as he supposeth to putre out of doubte that the Sense of the Catholykes Obiection can not contynue Whiche in fewe wordes is no other then to shewe hymselfe A Grammarian only And to destroie one trueth by an other as though One phrase might not haue two good Senses eche one agreeing with the place in which they are apointed to serue The sum of M. Iewels Argument is this The like forme or phrase of speache is to be found in an other sense Ergo to put the mater out of doubt this Present place of which the question is hath not a different or sundrie sense frome that other The Summe of my meaning is this that no man be deceaued through this kind of M. Iewels Answering wherein he so telleth one Trueth that he disswadeth an other This practise of the ProtestaÌ„tes hath already done harme inough let them beginne rather to amend theyr former iniquites then to adde fresshe vnto them They haue answered God must be worshipped in Spirite Which is most true and haue thereby taken awaie an other trueth that God is also to be worshipped with our body and bodily thinges They haue answered The true Fast is to abstaine frome Synne Whiche is vndoubteely True but by that faire shew of pure holynes they haue Destroied an other Trueth that Togeather with the fasting from synne we must also take paynes in our body and abstaine now and then from meate and drinke Thei haue Answered We must receiue the body of Christ by faithe which in some sense is most true But thei haue there withal taught the people not to beleue the Real presence of Christ in the Sacrament which presence yet is as true as the other is certaine In other cases moe they haue done the lyke It is to much that thei haue already done let them not therefore continue in this trade of Answering nor of dealing in maters of Religion Specially when thei bring the mater to Phrases of Speache and Signification of wordes and by one Sense take awaie an other whereas bothe in their seueral places doe agree with Truthe
is this What to doe Iew. 187 How loth or vnable rather M. Iewel is to shew any euidence Iew. 187 to aske for witnesses in a doubtfull matter And to loke for some steppe of a foote or token of highe way which thousand thousandes haue Ordinarily and Openly passed by But who is able to shewe anye Booke wrytten in Englyshe a thousande yeares a goe If ye can not shewe a whole booke yet shewe but a peece of the leafe of one Or some token or testimonye thereof that euer any such booke was vsed It foloweth Or if it could be shewed yet who were able to vnderstand it You may see then how vaine it is to thinke that the Apostles or their successors did commit the woorde of God to vulgare tonges which being so subiect vnto chaÌ„ges coulde not well be trusted with the preseruing of the true Scriptures For if the English Seruice which vndoubtedly if any suche had bene consisted of the holye Scriptures if it should haue had the scriptures translated into it there to be kept for the Christians in what case should we haue bene nowe being not able to vnderstande that English Or in what case shoulde the Scripture it selfe haue bene if as the propriety of the tongue was altered so it shuld again be interpreted to the capacity of euery generation Yet ye procede further There is no boke to be found of the prayers Iew. 187 that the Druides made in Fraunce or the Gymnosophistae in India And will M. Harding therof conclude that therfore the Druides or Gymnosophistae praied in Latine First how know you what may be shewed for the Gymnosophistes Prayers in India How long studied you there How narowly searched you Or what certificates haue you receiued of any man of credit from that Country Consider then that the Druides and Gymnosophistae were Idolatours no maruel therfore thoughe all their bokes and Superstitions be gone and consumed But the Christians Seruice in the Vulgar tounge pertaineth you will say to the substaunce of true religion and coulde not therfore be so broughte to nought that no monâ—ment therof should be remaining Or the Druides also and the Gymnosophistes we know some what the names at the least of them be preserued and what men these were we finde it expounded But of the Seruice in English before now of late who euer read who euer heard who euer thought Neither doth Doctor Hardinge reason with you after this sort There is no old boke to be found of the Seruice in Englishe It is his maner not so good as common ergo it was in Latine This is but a tricke of your Logike M. Iewel to alter the sense of your aduersary and forme his arguments after your pleasure But this rather is his reason If the Seruice had bene in Englishe considering the multitude of bookes and Churches some memory would be left of it But none is found Ergo by good consequence there was neuer any such Seruice And you to shift your handes of this argument doe make as though his only Demaunde were to haue Englishe bokes of the auncient Seruice brought forth and as though his conclusion should be if ye shewed not y e plaine bokes Ergo y t seruice was in Latin But that you may not escape so I will not aske you for Bookes nor Monuments nor Relikes nor tokens of the English seruice But in this one and reasonable and easy question to be answered I wold faine perceiue what sense you haue or vnderstaÌ„ding When you were borne and long before that the Seruice in England was in the Latine tonge If therfore it had not ben so from the beginning when began the Latine when ceased the English Doubtlesse sayeth D. Harding some mention would haue bene made of the time causes hereof Harding Fol. 88. For if in the smallest matters of the Church Seruice there haue ben found which haue noted the particulars as that Damasus caused the Psalmes to be soÌ„g by sides and Thelesphorus made Gloria in excelsis to be song and that S. Gregory added y e Anthems and Alleluya so in euery part of the Masse Is it possible y t so great a change of the publike Seruice from English into Latin should not be marked of any man or put in record by any wryter Was it done sodainly in the night when al were a slepe Or in the morning did euery man forget him self Or were there no wryters then Or were all corrupted Or was there no Heretike to leaue behind him a note of it but y t such an euident wonder ful chauÌ„ge of the whole Seruice froÌ„ English as you M. Iewel think into Latine should either not be espied or not coÌ„mitted to memory What aÌ„swer ye now vnto this Ye answer not one worde ye make M. Iew. duin and yet would not be knowen of it as though ye did not see it ye pull y e reader froÌ„ y t matter to the Druides of France Gymnosophistes of India ye speke as though D. Harding framed a direct argumeÌ„t for y â— Latine tounge asked you no question of the English Seruice Ye cry out O what a foly is this And as though al meÌ„ were foles for ye answer not one word to y e principal poynt You do not bring so much as a gesse a coÌ„iecture a likelihode You steale away though you be eied the questioÌ„ being so resonable you answer not one word to it WheÌ„ began y t Latin Seruice M. Iewel wheÌ„ ceased the English If there be any thing in record of it bring it forth if ther be nothing theÌ„ do I proue y t you are blind in these maters y t al y â— grace of your reply force of your lerning coÌ„sisteth in riâ—eling of other meÌ„s argumeÌ„ts an easy matter in Rhetorike not in coÌ„firming any of your owne which should not be to sekinge in a new Gospeller Thus haue I then discoursed with M. Iewel about the publike Seruice in the Syriacall Egyptian Ethiopian Persian Armenian Scythian Frenche or Britain tounge I haue asked whether he coulde proue any of these to haue bene vsed within the six hundred after Christ I haue requyred sure demonstrations because he contemneth Coniectures and Gheasses I haue coÌ„sidered both those common places of his pa. 155. 175. in which he bringeth the best and moste that he can say for the CoÌ„tentatioÌ„ and SatisfactioÌ„ of his reader I finde no mention of Publike Seruice in any tounge in the primitiue Church byside Greeke or Latine He proueth his matters by Gheasses he alleageth Authorities and Examples which were long sence the first six hundred yeres to which tyme we bounde him as he doth vs. I bring hym to the question of our owne couÌ„try and leaue him not one likely word which he might answer And so I trust he will be taken as he is for a mouer of contention about other meÌ„s right and possession him self hable to bring furth no