that but let it be tryed by the authority of the Scriptures not the proper witnesses of any but common to both let matter with matter cause with cause and reason with reason trye it c. And Hierome writing to Laeta de institutione filiae fol. 58. willeth not to reade some without doubting and other some warely but he sayth Caueat omnia Apocrypha Let her beware of all the Apocrypha which he nameth in Prologo Galeato Et si quando ea non ad dogmatum veritatem sed ad signorum reuerentiam legere voluerit sciat non eorum esse quorum titulis praenotantur multaquè ijs admixta vitiosa grandis esse prudentiae aurum in luto quaerere And if at any time she will reade them not for the trueth of opinions but for the reuerence of signes let her knowe that they are not theirs whose titles they beare but that many vitious thinges are mixt with them and that it is a point of great wisdome to seeke out golde in dirt Loe here you see that he biddes her to beware in the reading of them Camp The Scripture is principally to be admitted but I would we might haue an argument Walker Then thus I reason That which he biddeth to beware of is not to be holden authenticall But he biddeth to beware of the Apocrypha Ergo the Apocrypha is not to be holden authenticall Camp Apocrypha are taken two wayes First for those bookes which are doubted of and then for such bookes that are not allowed Such were the prophecie of Enoch Iacobs testament and such like which he calleth Somniolenta deliramenta vitiosa c. of those Hierome speaketh in this place and not of those others For what point is there in Ecclesiasticus the booke of Wisdome that is to be found fault with that is vitiosū not good Walker They are called Apocrypha that are not in the Canon receiued and allowed to haue proceeded vndoubtedly from the holy Ghost these Apocrypha are forbidden to be read And Hierome in praefat in lib. Reg. saith Hic prologus scripturarum c. Si quid extra hos est inter Apocrypha est ponendum c. They are not in the Canon therefore Apocrypha are onely to be read Camp Woulde Hierome forbid the gentlewoman to reade Ecclesiasticus where there are giuen so many morall precepts Non sunt in Canone Hebraeorum sed in Canone Christianorum They are not in the Canon of the Hebrewes but they are in the Canon of the Christians Walker They may be read for morall Lessons but not for matters of religion which must be proued by Canonicall scripture What say you to the second booke of Macchabees Thinke you that to be holden for Canonicall scripture Camp I thinke so What should let Walker What say you to that sentence 2. Macch. 12. thrust into the text Salubris est oratio pro defunctis and to that which followeth Et si quidem bene vt historiae competit hoc est vt ipse velim sin autem minus digne concedendum est mihi And if I haue done well and as is meete for a storie this also my selfe did wish c. Camp It is marueile that you should say that it is thrust in Walker It is noted so by other and the duetie of an historiographer is to reporte things done truely and plainely without arguing like a Logitian but he sayeth Ergo salubris est oratio pro defunctis Therefore prayer for the dead is healthfull which appeareth first to haue bene set in the margent But howe auoyde you the last Can such asking of pardon be of the holy Ghost wherein hath hee fayled or of whome shall hee be pardoned Camp The interpreter asketh pardon of his speach for his style and not for the doctrine The holy Ghost asketh no more pardon then Paul did when he saide Rudis sum sermone I am rude in speach when he spake in a base and lowe stile Charke Campion howsoeuer you labour to auoyde the direct course of disputation and haue obteined some change of the question I must call you home by and by Notwithstanding I minde a while to followe this your course and to finde you out in your owne trace where I maruaile howe you dare thus speake in this assemblie For what a blot is it to the holy Ghost to affirme he should aske pardon and to the Apostle Saint Paul to say his stile to the Corinthians is a base and lowe stile But to vse no further preface I will thus proue that the 2. booke of the Macchabees was not indited by the holy Ghost Whatsoeuer needeth pardon either for matter or maner was not indited by the holy Ghost But the story of the 2. booke of Macchabees needeth pardon either for matter or maner Therefore it was not indited by the holy Ghost Camp This man would be angrie with me if he knew why Charke If I woulde knowe I not why to be angrie with you a notable and vowed enemie of the trueth of God and a seditious man against the state But I come not to deale with your person but against your errors Answere the argument Camp I say the writer of the Macchabees asketh pardon of his speach neyther doeth Paul blotte the holy Ghost when he saide that he was rudis sermone that he spake not so eloquently nor so finely as sometimes he might Charke You answere not directly and beside you affirme an error For S. Paul craueth no pardon for his stile but setteth his plainesse against the set and curious speach of the false Apostles who did come in gay apparance and shewe of wordes as if they had had al the power of trueth that might be and yet in this plaine style the Apostle was of al others most mightie most eloquent As for the 2. booke of Macchabees which you make Canonicall seripture here I will make this challēge if you dare answere it to proue many lyes in it through 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and that therefore it was written by a prophane spirite for the matter But to come to the Syllogisme and to disproue your distinction I reason thus The writers of holy Scriptures aske not any pardon at all either for the matter or for the manner Therefore they aske no pardon for their style Camp I deny your Antecedent Paul sayeth Rudis sum sermone Charke If Saint Paul saith Rudis sum sermone doeth he I pray you in those wordes craue pardon for his stile howe hang your wordes together I will proue my Antecedent by the place of Peter None that haue written as they were directed by the spirit of God craue pardon either for matter or for manner But all the holy men of God that wrote the Scriptures haue written as they were directed by the spirit of God Therefore none of the holy men of God that haue written the scriptures craue pardon either for matter or manner Camp This acknowledging
when he wrote The other is the continuall contestation of the Churches succeeding To this effect writeth S. Augustine and so be all latter Churches barred from authoritie to make any writings canonicall scripture specially those that haue of olde bene doubted of They may testifie what the olde Churches before them haue done as we nowe doe Hereunto they saide againe that it was blasphemie after those Councils to call those bookes Apocrypha or to doubt of the authoritie of them It is rather most horrible blasphemie said we to make humane writings equall with the Canonicall scriptures as of late your Tridentine Councill hath done and as your Pope being but one man hath made his Decretal epistles then with S. Hierome Eusebius and other ancient godly fathers to call those bookes Apocrypha which they do so call And we said that notwithstanding those Councils Caietanus their Popes Cardinall thought it no blasphemie who in the ende of his expositions vpon the olde testament in very plaine wordes maketh the same difference of the bookes of the scriptures doeth not onely alowe the iudgement of Hierome but addeth further that all writitings yea of bishops of Rome them selues of whome he nameth some must be brought to S. Hieroms rule They vtterly reiected Cardinall Caietanus because as they said he was but one man against all the Church We said you of your side will not be charged with the wordes of others though they be the Popes Cardinals and yet you doe thinke it reason that we should be charged with euery worde that hath slipped from Luther Nay you charge him and vs by him with that which you can neuer proue that he did write or speake Hart said further that Caietanus was a good scholemā and traueled in that course with commendation but when hee began to become an expositor of the scriptures said he then he lost his grace and credit We answered if they thought it reason to charge vs with all the sayings of Luther or of any other we might by good and great reason charge them with the sayings of so great learned a Cardinall of Rome as Caietanus was Last of all wee came to the place of S. Augustine in his second booke De doctrina Christiana Which Campion and his fellowes gladly receiued because they said it made for them and not for vs. For saide they S. Augustine rehearseth those bookes for Canonicall scriptures which you call Apocrypha To this wee answered that they shoulde rather charge Saint Hierome and Eusebius and other auncient fathers who doe call them Apocrypha And S. Augustine in that place rehearsing the order of the bookes of scriptures though said we he differ somwhat from Eusebius and S. Hierome in shewe of wordes yet hee doeth in deede agree with them For where they deuide the bookes of the scriptures into three sorts that is Canonicall Apocrypha and feigned or vntrue Augustine deuideth them into Canonicall and Apocrypha onely and then he deuideth the Canonicall bookes into two sortes that is those that be certainely true which we with S. Hierome and Eusebius do call properly Canonicall and those that haue bene doubted of which Eusebius and S. Hierome do call Apocrypha And S. Augustine nameth those that be vtterly vntrue Apocrypha which Eusebius calleth doubtfull feigned and forged And this may be gathered out of Augustine him selfe in diuers places whereof we haue noted some And albeit Augustine calleth those bookes Canonicall yet he giueth not the like authoritie to them as namely to the Maccabees and to the other of that sort as he doeth to those that be Christes the Lords witnesses as he nameth them which be these that are named properly Canonicall Here would they not admit in any wise that the worde Canonicall was aequiuocum or of diuers significations in diuers places but that wheresoeuer that worde was founde it brought all bookes so called vnder one kinde Much time was spent here about and the matter was much argued on Master Campion and his fellowes part At the last Master Campion was desired by vs to reade the chapter in that Canon law beginning In Canonicis which Gratian takes out of this place of Augustine and first that hee would reade the rubrick which he seemed both to do And Pound one of his companions sitting by who with his importunitie impertinent speaches had often interrupted the course of the conference saide Father Campion let them reade their places them selues Yet at the length Master Campion read it and it is thus Inter Canonicas scripturas Decretales Epistolae connumerantur which after much desiring he englished also The decretall Epistles are numbred together among the Canonicall Scriptures Whereupon one of vs saide you charge vs with blasphemie for naming those bookes Apocrypha which Saint Hierome Eusebius and other ancient holy fathers doe so name but here may you see most horrible blasphemie in deede in the Canonical lawe of your Pope which matcheth his Decretall Epistles that is meere fables with the Maiestie of the Canonicall Scriptures as he doeth in this distinction and sundry other places whereby you may see to what point this boldnesse of making mens writings Canonicall Scriptures is come Then saide we to M. Campion do you hold that Popes decrees for Canonical scriptures as you do the bookes of Moyses and the Prophets He answered no and graunted then that the worde Canonicall was aequinocum or of diuers significations which before they all did so constantly denie Whereupon we sayde that we had some good hope of Master Campion for that he blushed And we sayde further that Cardinall Caietanus in the place before alleadged sayeth expressely that S. Augustine placed those books in the Canon of maners but not in the Canon of doctrine whereby he plainely declareth that the word Canonicall is aequiuocum After this he was desired to reade the text of that Chapter and there he founde and could not denie but that the place of Augustine was vntruely reported by Gratian and by manifest corruption drawē altogether from the meaning of Augustine For where S. Augustine saith that those Scriptures are to be taken for Canonicall which the most or greatest part of Christian Churches so take among the which those Churches be which deserued to haue Apostolique Seas and to receiue Epistles from the Apostles these wordes of S. Augustine are chaunged and in the place of the Apostolique Seas is put the Apostolique Sea meaning the Church of Rome and those Churches which deserued to receaue Epistles from the said Church of Rome which is cleane contrary to S. Augustines wordes and meaning Both often before and here specially Master Campion and his fellowes seemed to be desirous to dispute vpon some pointes of religion rather then to continue in this examination of his booke which we said we woulde not at afternoone refuse but the forenoone qd we is so farre spēt that we must at this time make
an ende And then turning vs to the auditorie we said You haue heard howe Master Campion in his printed booke hath charged vs as rasers manglers and spoylers of the holy Scriptures of meere desperation and distrust in our cause as he saith You haue heard how he would proue vs so to be by certeine places by him in his said printed booke noted as being the wordes of Luther and others in their bookes You haue heard and seene proued by the bookes them selues that there is no such thing to be founde in those places of their bookes as he hath set downe but onely that S. Hierome and Eusebius aboue a thousande yeere sithen doubted of the authoritie of those Epistles bookes And you haue heard and it is vniuersally knowen that S. Hieroms Prologue and Epistle wherein he noteth those bookes to be Apocrypha haue bene ioyned with all Bibles that haue bene written and printed euer since S. Hieromes time by the space of a xi hundred yeeres and more vntill now of late sithen the Tridētine Councill some Popish Printers haue left them out And you haue heard that not onely now of late the Councill Tridentine hath made the Apocrypha of equal authoritie with the vndoubted Canonical scriptures but also that it is set down in the B. of Romes Canon law that his Decretal epistles are to be numbred together among the Canonical scriptures so finally you see what iniurie these men do thēselues to the holy scriptures what blasphemy they haue cōmitted in matching their fables with the Canonical scriptures who do most vniustly charge vs with those crimes Sherwin said but you should haue told withall what we haue answered to all those pointes We said your answere is to be looked for when you can bring foorth your copies which you speake of and promised for in any bookes by you named extant and to be had there is nothing of that which M. Campion hath set downe to be found And here the time being spent we made an end for that forenoones conferēce The after noones conference IN the fore noones conference both Master Campion himselfe others of his companions had oftentimes required vs that we woulde deale with them in some matter of doctrine and leaue that course that we began with in the examining of his booke Whereunto we answered that we were minded if the time would suffer vs to examine other partes of his booke and lay it open to the audience there howe that as he had most vntruly charged Luther and others with the mangling and spoyling of the bodie of the holy Scriptures in the beginning of his booke so had he likewise most vntruly and impudently in other places slaundered other worthie men and vpon the same his good groundes he had charged vs all as rasers and manglers of the holy Scriptures And surely our opinion was that if any thing at all that laying open before his face of his continuall vntrueths which he hath so braggingly aduouched in his booke might haue reclaimed him For vndoubtedly he could neuer haue endured the manifestation of those his lyes as they were in the confutation of his booke shortly after set out had they bene layde open before his eyes which might manifestly appeare to all that did marke his gentle and milde behauiour and speach in the After noones conference in comparison of his bragging and lewde wordes vsed in the forenoone Notwithstanding at our meeting at after noone we sayde vnto Master Campion seeing your desire is so much to dispute in some matter of doctrine we will not refuse But first we pray you let vs qd we peruse the Canon that foloweth that which we last dealt with in the fore noone concerning the Popes Canons and the Canonicall Scriptures for that the time would not then suffer vs to reade it The wordes of Pope Leo the fourth there translated worde for worde are these For this cause I feare not to pronounce more plainely and with a loude voyce that he that is conuinced not to receiue indifferently the statutes of the holy fathers which we haue spoken of before which with vs are intituled by the name of Canons whether he be a Bishop a Clarke or a laye man that he is proued neither to beleeue nor to holde profitably and effectually to his effect the Catholique and Apostolique faith nor the foure holy Gospels This saith Pope Leo. You may see quoth we whereunto this boldnesse of matching mens writings with the holy Canonical Scriptures is come Fore here Pope Leo with a loude voyce pronounceth that whosoeuer doeth not indifferently receiue the Canons is conuicted neither to reteine effectually nor beleeue the Catholique and Apostolique faith nor the foure holy Gospels whereby he matcheth the beleeuing receiuing or refusing of his Canons with the beleeuing or refusing of the foure holy Gospels for so we said that the proofe of that Canon and the worde indifferently did importe Master Campion indeuoured very much to quallifie this worde indifferentèr indifferently and so to mollifie the Popes blasphemie if he coulde and he confessed that there was difference betweene the Euangelistes and other writers for that the Euangelistes and writers of the Scriptures coulde not erre in memorie or any other circumstance but Councils might be deceiued in some such small matters of circumstance As for example sayeth he I am bounde vnder paine of damnation to beleeue that Tobias dogge had a tayle because it is written he wagged his tayle It was sayd by vs that it became him not to deale so triflingly in matters of such waight Why then saith he if this example like you not take another I must beleeue that Saint Paul had a cloake because hee willeth Timothie to bring his cloake We said these thinges were nothing to purpose vnlesse hee could proue that such a promise was made to the bishop of Rome and his Coūcils that whatsoeuer they should determine was sure to be true and certaine They alleaged Christes saying Hee that heareth not the Church let him be reputed as a publicane and heathen We answered that text serued them for all purposes But first they must proue them selues to be the true Church before that text would belong vnto them And where they alleaged out of the 15. of the Actes So it seemeth to the holy Ghost and vs. Wee answered wee knewe well enough that that Councill was gouerned by the holy Ghost wherein the Apostles were president But what maketh that to the wicked Councils of Popes And after much reasoning about the worde indifferenter we said were that word put out yet were it blasphemie to saye that he that beleeueth not the Popes Canōs which are with other there mentioned beleeueth not the foure holy Gospels After this wee began our disputation concerning iustification both for that it is first of all other mentioned in your booke quoth we to Master Campion and both Luther and we all are most grieuously charged by you
with error therein and also for that it is in deede a matter of the chiefest controuersie betweene vs. And first for that you doe in your booke vntruely charge Luther and vs by him with the cutting away of Saint Iames epistle for that the wretche as you saie of Luther was by this epistle vanquished and ouerthrowen and for that that epistle doth so manifestly conuince his and our error in this matter of iustification as you do write we do protest that we will neither refuse nor make any exception to that epistle of Saint Iames nor to any other part of the newe Testament which you vntruely haue charged vs to haue cut off from the bodie of the holy scriptures It is well said they that you doe receaue this Epistle of Saint Iames. We haue euer receiued it saide we Howe much the more vntruely haue you charged vs with the contrarie And so entering into the matter we said Whereas you doe charge Luther with him vs all for teaching a newe and false doctrine yea heresie also in that we saie and write that we are iustified by faith onely we say for our defence against this your slaunder that the same doctrine is taught both in many places of the holy scriptures most effectually and is also expressely affirmed and pronounced by the ancient holy fathers and doctors of Christes Church both Greekes and Latines in the verie same wordes that wee do vse Let vs heare your scriptures and doctors sayd they Thē for that we came purposed to examine y◠vntruthes of Campions booke rather then to dispute we did very briefly as our memorie did then serue vs note rather then thorowly alleage many places out of the holy scriptures for the proofe of our iustification by faith and consequently by faith onely to this effect Our sauiour Christ saide we as it is in sundrie places of the Euangelistes recorded saith often Thy faith hath saued thee Onely beleeue beleeue onely They shall receaue remission of their sinnes and inheritance among them that are sanctified by faith in me As many as beleeue in me to them hath God giuen power to become the sonnes of God Whosoeuer beleeueth in me shall not be condemned shall not perish but haue euerlasting life Thus saith our sauiour Christ c. And Saint Paul saith Beleeue in the Lord Iesus Christ and thou shalt be saued God doeth iustifie thorowe faith Wee are saued by grace thorowe faith We are blessed by faith We are the children of Abraham yea we are the children of God by faith The righteousnes of God by the faith of Iesus Christ vnto all and vpon vs all that beleeue If thou confesse with the mouth the Lorde Iesus and shalt beleeue in thine heart that God raised him vp from the dead thou shalt be saued For with the heart man beleeueth vnto righteousnes and with the mouth man confesseth vnto saluation We are freely iustified by his grace thorowe faith Then said they we knowe right well that the scriptures doe conteine great commendations of faith but in all these there is not this worde faith onely which is your doctrine But the ancient holy fathers said wee vpon these groundes of the scriptures by vs alleaged doe gather and plainly pronounce that onely faith iustifieth as you shall heare anone And howe many thinges saide we doe you your selfe teach vs as necessarie articles of religion not hauing for you one plaine worde therefore but doe affirme that in effect they are conteined in the holy scriptures And you haue heard that iustification and righteousnes yea saluation and the kingdom of heauen are attributed to faith and that without any addition of any other thing And you haue heard the wordes of our Sauiour beleeue onely only beleeue And of Saint Paul you are freely iustified by faith which are in effect as much as faith onely and to more effect exceedingly then are your proofes of a great many of the principal pointes of your Popish religion And where as we meane none other by faith onely but faith without the workes of the Lawe and without our good workes if the former place can not satisfie you heare what Saint Paul sayeth further Know ye that a man is not iustified by the workes of the Lawe but by the faith of Iesus Christ. The righteousnes of God is made manifest without the Lawe by the faith of Iesus Christ vnto all and vpon all that beleeue We holde that a man is iustified by faith without the deedes of the Lawe It is one God that iustifieth circumcision by faith and vncircumcision through faith Euery one that beleeueth is absolued from all from the which they could not be absolued by the Lawe of Moses Thus saith Saint Paul and to the like effect in exceeding many places declaring that we are iustified by faith and not by the Law by faith and not by workes which is all one as to say by faith onely No it is not all one sayd they But the ancient doctors of the Church said we do vpon these very places of the holy scriptures by vs alleaged gather and in expresse wordes set downe as we doe that we are iustified by faith onely as ye shall see Saint Hillary quoth we sayeth thus reading his wordes out of the booke it selfe Mouit scribas remissum ab homine peccatum hominem enim tantum in Iesu Christo contuebantur remissum ab eo quod lex laxare non poterat fides en◅m sola iustificat That is to say It moued the scribes that sinne was remitted by man for they behelde man onely in Iesus Christ and that was remitted by him the which the Lawe can not release for faith onely doeth iustifie Thus farre Saint Hilary who as you doe see of this doctrine of Saint Paul by vs alleadged for iustification by faith without the Lawe gathereth and setteth downe the same doctrine in the same wordes that we doe teach that faith onely doeth iustifie But he saith not so in the same sense that you doe saith Master Campion We shall see of the sense anon saide we but we pray you heare the other doctors also who doe agree with vs in the same wordes Saint Ambrose also vpon the place by vs alleaged out of the third to the Romanes among many other sentences hath this Non iustificari hominem apud Deum nisi per fidem That a man is not iustified before God but by faith And shortly after Saint Ambrose saith Tam Gentiles quam Iudeos non aliter quam credentes iustificauit Quia enim vnus Deus est vna ratione omnes iustificauit That is both the Gentiles and the Iewes God hath iustified none other wayes but beleeuing For because there is one God he hath iustified all by one meanes And most plainely vpon the wordes by vs before alleaged he sayeth Iustificati gratis per gratiam ipsius Iustificati sunt gratis quia nihil operantes neque
saith that Christianitie which is the Church is to bee knowen only by the Scriptures He hath these wordes Tantummodoper scripturas nullo modo nulla probatio c. Wherfore thus I frame my argumēt out of Chrysostoms place The Church is to be knowen onely by the Scriptures But visibilitie is not the Scriptures Ergo the Church is not to be knowē by visibilitie Or thus The only note to know the Church by is y◠holy Scriptures Uisibilitie is not the holy Scripturs Ergo visibilitie is not a note to know the Church by Campion Yea out of the Scriptures the Church may bee knowen for the Scriptures appoint visiblenes to bee a marke of the Church But I deny the Minor Fulke Do you say then that visibilitie is the Scripture Campion I say visibilitie is conteined in the Scriptures Fulke My Minor is that visiblenes is not the Scripture so vpon my Maior which is Chrysostomes authoritie I conclude that visiblenes is no marke of the Church Campion I know Chrysostomes place hee denieth not visiblenes to be a note You may go to an other argument Fulke You would not heare Chrysostome by your will but he shal be read by your leaue Tunc cum videritis abominationem desolationis stantem in loco sancto id est cum videritis haeresim impiam quae est exercitus Antichristi stantem in locis sanctis Ecclesiae in illo tempore qui in Iudea sunt fugiant ad montes id est qui sunt in Christianitate conferant se ad scripturas Sicut enim verus Iudeus est Christianus dicente Apostolo non qui in manifesto sed qui in occulto sic vera Iudea Christianitas est cuius nomen intelligitur confessio Montes autem sunt scripturae Apostolorum aut Prophetarum de quibus dictum est Illuminas tu mirabiliter a montibus aeternis Et iterum de ecclesia dicit fundamenta eius in montibus sanctis Et quare iubet in hoc tempore omnes Christianos conferre se ad Scripturas Quia in tempore hoc ex quo obtinuit haeresis illas Ecclesias nulla probatio potest esse verae Christianitatis neque effugium potest esse Christianorum aliud volentium cognoscere fidei veritatem nisi Scripturae diuinae Antea enim multis modis ostendebatur quae esset Ecclesia Christi quae gentilitas nunc autem nullo modo cognoscitur volentibus cognoscere quae sit vera Ecclesia Christi nisi tantummodò per scripturas c. Then when you shall see the abomination of desolation standing in that holy place that is when you shall see an vngodly heresie which is the army of Antichrist standing in the holy places of the Church in that time they which are in Iury let them flie to the mountaines that is they that are in Christianitie let them get them to the Scriptures For as the true Iewe is a Christian as the Apostle sayeth not which is in open sight but which is in secrete so true Iurie whose name is vnderstood to be confession is Christianitie And the mountaines are the Scripture of the Apostles and Prophets of whome it is sayde Thou doest giue light marueilously from the euerlasting moūtaines And againe he sayeth of the Church Her foundations are in the holy hilles And wherefore doeth he commaunde all Christians in this time to get them to the Scriptures Because in this time since heresie hath obtained those Churches there can be no tryall of true Christianitie neyther can there be any other escape of Christians which woulde knowe the trueth of the faith but the Diuine Scriptures For before times it was shewed by many wayes which was the Church of Christ and which was gentilitie but nowe to them that woulde knowe which is the true Church of Christ it is knowen by none other meanes but onely by the Scriptures This is playne for the Antecedent And these particles are playne Nullo modo cognoscitur It is knowen by no meanes there is no other proofe but tantummodò per Scripturas onely by the Scriptures Campion Master Doctor you knowe the order I deny the consequent you proue the Antecedent Fulke You denied the Antecedent and therefore it was necessary for me to proue it But this place also doeth prooue the Consequence of mine argument which you denyed Let me see howe you can answere to the place All other markes in time of heresie or schisme by Chrysostomes iudgement are excluded but onely the Scriptures Therefore visibilitie also is excluded from being a marke of the Church Campion When the Church was first planted there was miracles by which it might be knowen but nowe they ceasing it is to be knowen sayeth Chrysostome onely by the Scriptures meaning that it is not to be knowen by miracles c. Fulke This answere is a senseles cauil which is easily auoyded For there is an Antithesis or opposition in Chrysostomes wordes howe it was knowen before that is multis modis by many wayes and howe it may be knowen nowe by one onely way tantummodo per Scripturas onely by the Scriptures For nowe that Antichrist is reuealed he excludeth all wayes except one sayeth it must be knowen onely by the Scriptures Therefore he excludeth visiblenesse as well as miracles from being an inseparable note of the Church Campion It excludeth miracles c. Fulke Well then your answere is that nullo modo nulla probatio tantummodò excludeth nothing but miracles Campion Yea and that appeareth by the wordes Ante tempus Antichristi For whereunto els should nunc and ante be referred except it had meant by ante before the primatiue Church and nunc nowe by the present and instant time Fulke You do but talke you cannot so put away Nulla probatio No proofe Nullo modo by no meane it is knowen but tantummodo per Scripturas onely by the Scriptures c. He speaketh of all times since heresies haue occupyed the Churches If you wil answere no otherwise I will rest vpon iudgement Campion I haue answered but I would to God I had a notarie well I commit all to God But I pray you note that I say that visibilitie is included in the Scriptures Goade I will examine this cause by a manifest place one of the strongest that is alleadged by those of your side to prooue the visibilitie of the Church namely that out of the 5. of Matthewe A citie that is buylded on a hill can not be hid whereupon they inferre therefore the Church must needes be alwayes visible Campion If it please you though it be commonly alleaged yet it is allegoricall There are many stronger places and you were best take a more pregnant place c. Goade It is alleadged by Hosius and others on your side to this purpose and therefore I chose it notwithstanding if you shunne it and would haue me to omitte it I will Campion No I say there are apter and stronger places neuerthelesse I shunne it not
but because of these hearers wee should seeke most for edification and it is the speciall cause of our meeting Goade Thus then I reason This speciall place alleadged by those of your side can not be vnderstoode of the Church Ergo it proues not this visibilitie Campion I deny the Antecedent Goade I would be glad for the better waying of this place that you would remember what your selfe hath written concerning the finding out of the sense of any place of Scripture in the second chapter of your booke I would you had bene as reasonable in other thinges of your booke and then we should haue agreed better for the rule is very good to helpe to the true sense that the circumstances of the place be considered the wordes that goe before that followe after the scope the clauses and whole context Nowe both out of that which goeth before and of that which followeth out of the whole scope and drift of the place it is euident to be spoken onely of the Apostles and their successors in the ministerie Ergo it is onely to be vnderstoode of them and not of the whole Church Campion I deny the Antecedent Goade Whatsoeuer is spoken properly of the Apostles doctrine and life can not be vnderstoode of the whole Church But this is properly spoken of their doctrine and life Therefore it can not be vnderstoode of the whole Church Campion You must not petere principium It was not onely spoken in respect of the Apostles function but of y◠who le church no otherwise then as the Apostles were Christians including the whole Church Goade Then that commaundement Bibite ex hoc omnes Drinke ye all of this spoken to the Apostles much more must include the whole Church being spoken of the sacrament which appertaineth to all and yet ye exclude the people from the cuppe Campion This was not spoken to them as they were Christians but in respect of their function as they were priestes the other was spoken as they were Christians Goade Neither of these is true but briefely deny one part of my argument Campion I deny the minor Goade Out of the circumstāces of the place and conclusion it is manifest that it is properly spoken of the Apostles doctrine and life and not of the whole Church Consider the wordes Vos estis sal terrae You are the salt of the earth Vos estis lux mundi c. You are the light of the worlde Non potest ciuitas abscondi c. A citie can not be hid Then the conclusion Sic luceat lux vestra So let your light shine c. You are the salt of the earth noteth the Apostles doctrine wherwith they should seasō others You are the light of the worlde noteth their life whereupon all mens eyes are cast and so can no more be hid then a citie vpon an hill Both these poyntes are proper to the ministerie and hereupon the conclusion inferred So let your light shine c. Campion You haue very well answered your selfe For the text conteineth both There is the salt and the earth the light and the world who must season and who must be seasoned who must shine and to whom they must shine Do you not see plainely that he includeth both the teachers and them that are taught c. Goade Nowe you fall to discoursing cleane besides the purpose It is true that the one can not be without the other but yet it is playne that to season to lighten and to be set as vpon an hill is proper alone to the Apostles and their ministerie For the drift and scope of the place is onely to set forth the Apostles doctrine conuersation and you violently wrest it to the whole Church The life of the ministerie is as it were set vpon an high stage the light of their conuersation is looked vnto of all what is this to the visibilitie of the whole Church Campion Uery wel doth a candle shine to it selfe and is not a master of a familie a Master and that which is spoken to him may it not be sayd also to them Goade I pray you howe holdeth this argument The life and doctrine of the ministerie is as it were set vpon a stage for all men to looke vnto and therefore they are called the salte of the earth the light of the worlde Ergo the whole Church is visible This is the force of your argument from this place Camp I haue sayd the text maketh not for you It is not vnderstoode of their ministerie and life only as they were Apostles but as they were Christians Goade As I haue proued this out of the text so nowe I will shewe this to be the sense out of the Fathers both Chrysostome and Ierome vpon the place Campion You may spare your labour you shall neuer finde Doctor that vnderstandeth it onely of the ministerie I tell you that aforehand Goade Yes I will shew out of Chrysostome that it is onely vnderstoode of the ministerie and of their life in the afternoone according to your request the place shal be shewed Campion It is a common and an vsuall kinde of speache to vtter that to the master which is meant to the seruants Goade Wil you beleeue none but your selfe hearken what Saint Hierome sayth vpon this place Campion Yes if you would beleeue Hierome as well as I we should be soone agreed What thinke you is Hierome of your religion would you be of his Goade I would not be of any mans religion to buylde vpon man I holde neither of one nor other but of Christ and grounde my religion onely vpon his worde But remember your strong place you spake of to proue the perpetual visibilitie of the church Let vs heare what it is Campion Shall I then haue one argument Goade Yea let vs heare it you shal be answered though it be not your part to oppose Campion It is out of Matthew chap. 18. Dic Ecclesiae Tell the Church I will proue out of this place that the Church of necessitie must continually be visible I proue it thus This is a commaundement that is perpetuall and must be alwayes executed in the Church But that can not be vnlesse the Church be visible Ergo the visibilitie of the Church is continuall Goade I distinguish of the maior When the Church is gathered may retaine a face when it doeth-execute gouernment hath a consistorie to heare matters then it ought to be done but this cannot be alwayes had being often hindered by persecution Camp Offences betweene brother brother happen alwaies and this is the medicine and remedy There is no age wherein there are not offences where shal I seeke the perpetual remedy that is appointed vnles the Church be perpetually visible Goade I haue said before Whē there is a state an established Church this remedy is to be sought for But this cannot alwaies be had because the militant afflicted church oftentimes
booke of Wisedome Ecclesiasticus Maccabees c. which your Councill of Trent thrust in as authenticall But to leaue that it is plaine that Cyprian vpō the Creede omitteth al that Apocrypha hauing rehearsed those which be Canonicall he sayth Haec sunt quae patres intra Canonem concluserunt ex quibus fidei nostrae assertiones constare voluerunt Sciendum tamen est quod alii libri sunt qui non Canonici sed Ecclesiastici a maioribus appellati sunt vt est Sapientia Salomonis Ecclesiasticus libellus Tobiae Iudith Machabaeorum libri quae omnia in ecclesijs legi voluerunt non tamen proferri ad authoritatem ex ijs fidei confirmandam These are those thinges which the fathers shut within the Canon by which they would haue the assertions of our fayth to stande Notwithstanding we must know that there are other bookes also which of our Elders were called Ecclesiast and not Canonicall as Salomons booke of Wisd. Ecclus. the bookes of Tobias Iudeth the Macca all which they would haue read in the Church and yet not brought forth to confirme the authoritie of fayth out of them Camp He is called cōmonly Author expositionis in Symbolum and therefore doubtfull whether it were Cyprian or no but admit it were I answere to these and all such like places that when particular Fathers particular Councils doe recken vp such such books omit others that either were receiued there or in other places sithens they recken vp such as were thē come to their knowledge and such as were approued in that part of the worlde where they thē liued But it followeth not they reckened no more Ergo there were no more They doubted therefore we must acknowledge no more For the Church hath since put them out of doubt Walker You answere not but trifle For those are not onely omitted and left vnreckoned but they are set downe for Apocrypha or Ecclesiastici so certaynely named and not Canonical Camp Some might bee set downe then as doubtfull that nowe are out of doubt because they are receiued Charke Hitherto you haue gone from the matter wherein I haue bene willing to followe you a little to cleare the poynt that then was in hande when I began with you Nowe let vs come to the questions agreed of betweene vs. Camp Nay let vs first speake of the authoritie of the Scripture then if you will of the sufficiencie Charke Of the authoritie we haue spoken alreadie and it is not within our question which is onely of sufficiencie Camp I deferre to the scriptures all authoritie and all sufficiencie therefore you haue nothing against me Charke Yes I haue this against you that you doe not thinke the scriptures onely and alone sufficient to all doctrine of fayth and maners For whatsoeuer you say we knowe you holde and teache the contrary namely that all things are not set downe and written in the worde This other day you were still calling for Syllogismes and when you had receiued a blowe and stoode astonied vnder it yet you cryed out a Syllogisme a Syllogisme to make men beleeue that you were not touched Now you shal haue Syllogismes answere to them directly and shortly Thus I proue the sufficiencie of the scripture without traditions What the Apostles taught viua voce by liuely voyce that also they wrote But they taught viua voce whatsoeuer is necessary to saluatiō Therefore they wrote also whatsoeuer is necessary to saluatiō Camp Nego argumentum I deny the Argument Charke It is a Syllogisme you woulde haue denied my Maior I thinke Camp Proue your Maior then Charke What care they had ouer the Churches present the same care they had ouer the Churches to come afterwarde But their care ouer the Churches present was to open to them all the counsell of God Therefore they left the like prouision in writing to al posterity that they might be instructed in all the counsell of God Camp I answere to the Maior They had the same care but in such sort as it was expedient It was not expedient that they shoulde write all and euery sillable that they spake and yet notwithstanding they disclosed all the counsell of God either in speciall or generall words written Charke Uery wel then we are come to the issue of the matter and you graunt the question that all doctrine both concerning faith and maners is either in speciall or generall words conteined in the Scripture Camp I agree But heare mine answere out of S. Augustine against Crestonius Where it can not be aduouched in scripture by speciall words that the baptisme of heretikes is good yet it is deliuered in the scripture by generall wordes forasmuch as the scripture doeth command vs to obey the Church which hath allowed this baptisme being conferred in forma Ecclesiae So the doctrines not particularly discoursed in scriptures are yet conteyned in these wordes Obey your prelates The Church is the pillar and supporter of trueth And if he heare not the Church let him be to thee an Ethnike and Publicane Charke You say particular matters are conteined in those general words Obey your Prelates Do you meane that we must obey them in causes not conteined in the word Then you may binde vs to what you list and disalowe what yee please Therefore syr that I may seeke your corners and finde you out what meane you by this when you say that Generall commandementes allowe particular traditions Camp I named not traditions Charke But it is the effect and scope of your speache for obedience to your Church Prelates in matters not expressed in the Scriptures Camp I saye there be poyntes wherein wee accorde with you as the baptisme of heretiques the baptisme of infantes the holy ghost proceeding from the father and the sonne that baptisme is a Sacrament and Preaching is none being both commaunded at one time that the Eucharist is a Sacrament and washing of feete none being commanded at one time and such like c. Charke To say that the proceeding of the holy ghost from the father and the sonne is not expressed in the scripture is a blasphemous speach Camp Shewe me any sentence expressing it in the scripture Charke It sufficeth to shewe it inferred in the scripture by good proofes of consequence implication But what say you to traditions decrees and such like which the Church of Rome maintayneth as the very word it selfe Let vs speake of them being now in question and not breake out into newe matters not in controuersie Camp I will not go from my question Charke You shall come to it if you take vpon you the defence of your traditions which I disproue in this maner If the Apostles left nothing vnwritten that is necessarie to saluation the scriptures are sufficient But the Apostles haue left nothing vnwritten necessarie to saluation Therefore the scriptures are sufficient Camp I graūt it as before referring it to that
Church supposing alwayes a true Church I pray you of what Church are you Charke We talke of the true Church and therefore this question is needles Are we to obey any thing contrary to the worde of God You can imagine nothing left to the Church that is not manifestly conteyned in the scripture Camp Call you manifestly particularly Charke To what purpose is that question I must bring you to a Syllogisme lest you auoyde disputation by digressing into other matter If any thing be left obscure or not fully handled by the Apostles it was either because the Apostles could not or because they would not write manifestly and fully But it is a blasphemie to say they could not and it is false to say they would not Therefore they haue written all manifestly and fully Here Campion repeated the Argument and then sayd thus Camp I answere to the word manifestly either in generall or particular termes manifest and this the Apostles both could and would For this is manifest enough Beleeue the Church but it is not particular Charke While we dispute of the manifest and full contents of the scripture leaue to choppe in the needles terme Particular manifest generals include particulars And where I pray you are we commaunded to beleeue the Church in matters not contained in the written worde By this vncerteine rule you may warrant all former traditions and bring in any newe absurdities Camp That is not the question Charke But it is a necessary note for the confutation of your answeres and doctrine of vnwritten verities Therefore I thus proue against you To leaue a doore open to any chaungeable or doubtfull traditions is not to teache things manifest enough in the scriptures But to send vs to your Church prelates in matters not expressed in the written word is to leaue a dore open to chaungeable and doubtfull traditions Therefore to sende vs to your Church prelates in matters not expressed in the written worde is not to teach thinges manifest enough in the scriptures Camp To leaue a doore to traditions which the holy ghost may deliuer to the true Church is both manifest and seene as the baptisme of Infants the holy ghost proceeding from father and sonne and such other things mentioned which are deliuered by tradition Proue these directly by the scripture Charke Which proposition in the Syllogisme doe you deny Camp Proue the baptisme of children and the proceeding of the holy Ghost not to be traditions Charke I maruayle you thus auoyde the Syllogisme and what you meane to match doctrines contained in the word of God with vnwritten and vncerteyne traditions of men It is plaine that the baptisme of children is proued by the analogie of Circumcision with baptisme childrē being circumcised the eight day Also by that the Sacraments of the old Testament are the same with the Sacraments of the newe The proceeding of the holy ghost is euidently proued by this that our Sauiour promiseth to send the holy Ghost Camp Proue the proceeding of the holy ghost Ex parte filii That is on the sonnes part For that is the point Charke It is proued by my former words and where Christ breathed vpon his disciples and said Receiue the holy ghost Camp Well leaue that talke of baptisme which this company vnderstandeth better Suppose that I am an Anabaptiste And y◠Anabaptist denieth this argument because children should not be baptized till the eight day and the scripture willeth them to be baptised that beleeue so that first they must haue Faith or els they may not be baptized Charke I reply to you that Infidels of age to vnderstand and beleeue must beleeue before they be baptised and admitted to the Church but the children of beleeuers being the seede of the faithfull they may receiue the seale of the couenant of God made to the Fathers and to their seede according to that of the Apostle If the first fruites be holy the lumpe also If the roote be holy the branches also are holy But to the question Notwithstanding the scriptures be the only rule triall of all questions in religion and do fully proue the matter in hand yet because you wil not be cōtented without them answere a place or two out of the Doctors Eusebius lib. 3. cap 35. of his ecclesiasticall storie writeth that Ignatius being caried prisoner to Rome did exhort the Churches to cleaue vnseparably to the tradition that is to the deliuered doctrine of the Apostles which for safetie it was necessarie to put downe in writing that we might not depart frō it Which excludeth the generall bringing in of vnwritten verities vnder the colour of that text Obey your prelates Camp Reade the place Charke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 In English thus He exhorted the Churches to cleaue vnseparablie to the traditition of the Apostles which he supposed and testified nowe for safeties sake necessarily to haue bene set downe euen in writing Camp What word doe you inferre Tradition I graunt is not alwayes taken for vnwritten veritie This place maketh for those traditions which were not then written Ignatius was S. Iohns scholler and he was Oculatus testis An eye witnesse of things that were not then written but went from hand to hande and therefore he thought it necessarie to leaue in writing such trueth as he had heard and was not written before For the Gospels were not then written Ignatius wrote no Gospell and the text noteth that the things whereof he spake were such as himselfe wrote Charke You mistake the meaning of the place For Ignatius spake not of your doubtfull and multiplied traditions but of the certayne Tradition that is of the deliuered and written doctrine of the Apostles to the which we must cleaue 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is so stedfastly that no force no arte may cut vs off or withdrawe vs from it no not an Angell from heauen much lesse any mortall man howsoeuer magnified with the high titles of Popedome or Prelacie or Apostolicall authoritie Walker You haue graunted that all things are written in the worde and that such traditions as can not manifestly be gathered out of the Canonicall Scriptures are not to be receaued Thereupon I reason thus The same that the Apostles wrote the same they deliuered in tradition But they haue written and deliuered the same things that they read in the Canonicall scripture Ergo their writings and traditions be all one and the same Camp The same that is to say nothing contrarie Walker The same and no other is needefull to saluation Heare the Apostles wordes 1. Cor. 4. Hac de causamisi vobis Timotheum qui est filius meus dilectus fidelis in domino qui vobis in memoriā reducet vias meas quae sunt in Christo quemadmodum in omni ecclesia doceo Who is my beloued sonne and faithful in the Lord who will put you in minde of my wayes which are in the Lorde euen as
I teache euery where in euery Church That he wrote and taught in one Church he wrote and taught in another and therefore 2. Cor. 1. he saith Nam gloriatio nostra est testimoniuÌ„ conscientiae nostrae c. Non enim alia scribimus vobis quam quâ—… legitis agnoscitis For this is our glorie euen the testimonie of our conscience c. For we write no other things vnto you then which you reade and knowe in deede Againe 2. Cor. 2. Quales sumus sermone per epistolas cum absumus tales sumus cum adsumus facto The same that we are in speach by our Epistles when we are absent such we are also when we are present Camp The same no contrarietie For there were afterwards many scriptures that were not then written Nowe therefore could they teache all thinges This Epistle was not then written and diuers others The meaning is they taught one Faith one Christ one doctrine but hee speaketh not of the Scriptures Walker He taught the same things that Moses and the Prophetes taught Quales sumus sermone per Epistolas tales facto Camp I graunt the same testimonies out of Moses and the Prophetes and Paul was as stout in speaking as in doing But what proueth this against me For he sayd more then he wrote Walker He sayd no more then is written in the Scripture Camp It is true that the Apostles proued all that they preached out of the scriptures out of the Lawe and the Prophetes and thereby iustified their preaching and yet that parte of the newe Testament which was afterwards written was not superfluous therefore sufficiencie employeth not that it must be expressed but that it may be gathered Walker You are one absent and another present You would bring in Idolatrie vnder the name of your traditions but I shew you that whatsoeuer we are to receaue it must be in the scripture Camp These are but wordes they neede no answere Walker Well I wil vrge you with matter out of Ambrose 1. Cor. 4. Super verba regnetis vt nos vobiscum regnemus Quicquid ab Apostolis tradituÌ„ non est sceleribus plenum est Whatsoeuer is not taught and deliuered by the Apostles is full of wickednes Camp He disputes against false Apostles and by waye of comparison he seuereth the traditions of Catholiques from those of Heretikes and this he doth to shew the difference of traditions and not to condemne traditions Walker It is an vniuersall proposition that all traditions that came not from the Apostles are full of wickednes but those which they wrote came not from them Ambrose also lib. 3. dc virginibus Nos noua omnia quae Christus non docuit iure damnamus quia sidelibus via Christus est Si igitur Christus non docuit quod docomus etiam nos id detestabile iudicamus We doe iustly condemne all new things which Christ hath not taught because Christ is the way vnto the faithfull If therefore Christ hath not taught that which we teache wee also doe iudge that to bee most detestable Campion This is against false prophetes whereof there were many that then went abrode from place to place teaching many things vnder the names of the Apostles that were none of theirs Walker Uery well So there are things taught by you vnder their names which are none of theirs wherefore we may conclude you to be in the number of false prophetes Christ saith Iohn 15. Omnia quae audiui à patre meo nota feci vobis I haue shewed all things to you which I haue heard of my father He shewed all thinges necessarie to saluation and therefore this is the conclusion Iohn 20. Haec scripta sunt vt vitam habeatis ideo vita consistit in ijs quae scripta sunt These things are written that ye might haue life therefore life consisteth in those things which are written Tertullian de praescriptionibus Haereticorum Apostolos enim domini habemus authores qui nec ipsi quicquam ex suo arbitrio quod inducerent eligerunt sed acceptam à Christo disciplinam fideliter nationibus assignauerunt Itaque etiamsi Angelus de coelis aliter euangelizaret c. We haue the Apostles for our authors who neither themselues chose any thing that they brought in of their owne brayne but they faithfully assigned that discipline which they had receiued from Christ to the nations Therefore albeit an Angell should preach otherwise from heauen c. Campion Christ did teach all and therefore the Apostles writte all that Christ taught Nego argumentum I deny the argument Walker Why Haec scripta sunt vt vitam habeamus These things are written that wee may haue life what neede wee more Campion Enough is written but in such sorte as was sayd before either in generall wordes or speciall either discoursed or touched Walker Although as the Euangelist saith Iohn 21. Multa alia fecit Iesus in conspectu discipulorum suorum quae non sunt scripta in hoc libro Iesus did many other things in the sight of his disciples which are not written in this booke as true it is hee wrought many miracles before his death to declare himselfe to be the sonne of God and after his resurrection to declare that he had a true bodie which both did suffer and was raysed vp agayne And Luke Act. 1. sayth Scripsi tibi Theophile de omnibus quae Christus tum fecit tum docuit I haue written vnto thee o Theophilus concerning all things which Christ both hath done hath taught He saith De omnibus non singulis For then if euery particular worde and act of Christ had bene written the worlde could not haue receiued the volumes of bookes that should haue bene written Iohn 2. 5 9. But these things are written Iohn 20. 9. that ye might beleeue and in beleeuing haue eternall life Wherefore Scrutamini scripturas quia in ijs non alibi vita quaerenda Iohn 5. Searche the scriptures because in them is life and not els where to be sought Charke This you haue beene inforced to graunt that all thinges necessarie to saluation are contained manifestly in the Scriptures Campion I graunt it with my distinction they are either manifestly written or conteined vnder that generall commaundement Obey your prelates Charke To proue that whatsoeuer you teache ought to bee in the written worde of GOD I haue a plaine place out of Tertullian against Hermogenes which also maketh strongly against you His wordes are these Scriptum esse doceat Hermogenis officina si non est scriptum timeat vae illud adijcientibus aut detrahentibus destinatum Let Hermogenes schole shewe that it is written if it be not written let him feare that curse appointed for them which adde or take from the scriptures Campion Where say you is this place of Tertullian Charke In his booke aduersus Hermogenem Camp Aduersus Hermogenem I thinke ye are deceiued there is no such booke in Tertullian
blasphemies for euen as Lucifer by pride woulde haue made him selfe equall with God so this Lucifers vicar in earth woulde by a Luciferian pride make his worde Canons and writings equall with the Maiestie of Gods worde and the Canonicall Scriptures Matt. 18. Act. 15. Miser Confossus diruptus Matth. 9. Mark 5. 10. Luk. 7. 8. 12. 18. Act. 26. 18. Iohn 1. 12. Iohn 3. 16. Act. 16. 31. Galat. 3. 8. Ephes. 2. 8. Rom. 4. Rom. 3. 22. Rom. 3. 24. Galat. 2. 16. Rom. 3. 21. 22 28. 30. Act. 13. D. Hillarius in Matth. cap. 8. Faith onely doeth iustifie Rom. 3. D. Ambrosâ—…in cap. 4. 9. ad Rom. Basil. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Gregor Nazianzen 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Aâ—…an in Galat 3. Chrisâ—…st in Hom. 2. in Rom. Origen in Rom. cap. 3. August de fide operibus Rom. 4. Psalm 32. D. Basil. de Humilitate 1. Cor. 13. Mat. 7. 22. 23. Galat. 5. Ephe Ephe. 2. 8 9. Apoc. 22. The pamphleters do say that we refused to subscribe not shewing M. Campions addition of merites Matth. 10. 1. Corinth 1. 29 30 31. Ephe. 2. 8 9. Rom. 3. 27. Rom. 4. 2. Mark 16. Both Basill Nazianzen were offred but it was Nazianzen not Basill as they report August De fide operibus Here was speache that nothing was meant by the noting but a priuate matter to preuent false reports And this he spake with great iolitie scoffingly Here was much a do about writing yet I neuer knewe any thing imprinted that might preiudice him 1. Argument Here the wordes of the text were read Bolde asseâ—…â—…rations Tobias was of another time for it was froÌ„ the dayes of Achab vnto Salmanazar 140. yeeres at the least Campion â—…greeth not with others of his owne side 2. Argument Pillars were erected in euery place with this blasphemous inscription superstitione Christi vbiq deleta c. The Papistes call iustice for treason persecution for religion Strange Diuinitie The third argument Homil. in Math. 24. There is no other proofe there is none other way to knowe the Church or true Christianitie but only by the Scripture 4. Argument Camp ratione secunda Hanc peruestigemus ex verbis adiacentibus voces clausulâ—… tota connexio Absurditie ergo preceptes giuen to the M. his calling are giuen to the familie Here M. D. Goade was turning for Chrys. vpon this place and he willed that it might be shewed at the next meeting Ad nauseam â—…sque Here Camp after his bold maner did insolently insult by these vaine questions The discipline of the Church perpetuall necessary though it be not alwayes had put in practise Therefore it is not alwayes visible Ephes. 1. Absurde The commandement in the institution bindeth Christians to receiue the cup. And Paul saith 1. Cor. 11. That which I receiued of the Lord wherby he teacheth that he had a commandement Absurde Who can dispute with him that denieth the groundes of disputation This discontented others also that stood by They may be reconed borne within the couenant but they are not his children if they be not elected thogh we iudge theÌ„ not because their not being elected doth not appeare vnto vs The second argument Here was promise that the place should be shewed Here there was a litle whispering amonges the company as if it had bene a soft hissing Scripture most absurdly applyed Campions absurdities 3. Argument And yet who knoweth not that generall CouÌ„cils haue bene contrary one directly against another Here the Papists in a libell brought out of LaÌ„cashire do report this far otherwise as they do all the rest but none truely they that were present can tell 4. Argument Here for lacke of the booke present it was referred to the shewing of the place afterward Absurde For there is as great necessitie of the one Sacrament as the other The Greke testament being reached vnto him he refused to reade it in the Greeke All this is but a vaine brag for his sight in Greke was very litle or none at all as may appeare in the first dayes conference here al so and afterwards ArgumeÌ„t 5. Here CampioÌ„ interrupted him saying there was no such place made much a doe Augustins argument Here the booke was promised to be brought the place to be shewed 6. ArgumeÌ„t Here it was promised that it should be shewed The seueÌ„th argument This D. Fulke read out of his note booke Concilior Tom. primo de ord celeb concilii ArgumeÌ„t 8. 9. Argument Ad Dard. Epist. 57. A fancie in philosophie Here it appeared that many were offended with the indignitie thereof The questions Here M. Lieutenaunt was content that any learned man present might moderate but none would take it vpon them Concil To. 3. fol. 139. ArgumeÌ„t 1. 2. Argument Some of these wordes were then omitted not read for breuitie sake 3. Argument 4. Argument 5. ArgumeÌ„t Here D. Fulke was admonished to rehearse the place in English that the people might vnderstande 6. ArgumeÌ„t ArgumeÌ„t 7. 8. Argument 9. Argument Here M. Lieutenant admonished them that the time was past 10. Argument 12. Augument The question 1. ArgumeÌ„t 2. ArgumeÌ„t 3. Argument 4. Argum ArgumeÌ„t 5. 6. ArgumeÌ„t Gene. 17. Exod. 12. Absurde Substance must be in a certaine vacaunt or voyd emptines and yet forsooth in quantitie and qualitie 8. ArgumeÌ„t ArgumeÌ„t 9. 10. Argument 12. Argument 2. Pet. 2. 1. Cor. 11. 2. Thes. 2. The questioÌ„â—… A prouerbial speach signifying thus much If you take any pleasure in speaking euill you shall lose it in hearing euill 1. Argument 1. Argum. Ignorance of the storie 〈◊〉 Pet. 1. 21. Here was a coÌ„mon good liking of this way Campion did often adde alter his answeres while they were in writing Before he desired it now being straightned he disliketh it and counteth it losse of time The aduersary against himselfe and yet turned from all his shifts In English If so be I haue done wel as agreeth with a storie this I do desire if not so worthily it must be pardoned in me Iudith 10. 3. 4. Iudith 10. vers 12 13. 11. 19. and 12. 14. Iud. 9. vers 10. Let him be taken with the snare of his eyes set on me and smite him with the lippes of my loue Turne my speach into fraude By Campionâ—… doctrine no practise is vnlawfull so it be for the deliuerie of their Church Rom. 3. 8. Moreouer Iudith doth praise that act which the holy ghost doth flatly coÌ„demn vide Iud. 9. 2. gen 49. 5. c. Iob. 13. 7. Camp knoweth not his owne translation Arg. prim prouing that the scriptures coÌ„teine sufficient doctrine to saluation In the forme or maner of the Church Arg. 2. Rom. 4. 11. Colos. 2. 11 12. Gen. 17. 12. 1. Cor. 10. 1. Luke 22. 49. Ioh. 15. 26. Iohn 2. 22. Campion was readier to moue 2 newe matters then to answere one argument Rom. 11. 6. If the Apostles proued all by Scripture as Campion graunteth why should not all others doe the like Iohn 5. 46. 〈◊〉 Argum. By Campions owne answere the Apostle speaketh of faith onely Here againe it appeareth by his answere that the Apostle teacheth faith onely Nothing to the matter 1 2 The very worde 3. Argum. Exformula Gal. 3. 11. 12 Gal. 3. 12. ArgumeÌ„t 4. Canisius in Caâ—…ech Payu Andr. lib. 9. Orthodox Expl. Matth. 11. 19. Luke 7. 29. Arg. 4. Arg. 5. Arg. 6. To trifle and shift by childish words In facte and deede
vicem reddentes sola fide iustificati sunt dono Dei That is they were iustified freely by his grace They were iustified freely for working nothing neither making any recompence they were iustified thorow only faith by the gift of God Thus farre Saint Ambrose who doeth very often in his expositions vpon that Epistle to the Romanes repeate That we are iustified by faith alone And Saint Basil most worthely named the great sayeth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c. That is perfect and sounde reioysing in God is this when a man doth not boast of his own righteousnes but knoweth that he wanteth him selfe true righteousnes and that he is iustified by only faith in Christ. And Saint Paul doeth glorie in the contempt of his owne righteousnesse Thus farre Saint Basill And Gregorie Nazianzen saith 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Confesse Iesus Christ and beleeue that he is risen from death and thou shalt be saued For to beleeue onely is righteousnesse Thus saith Nazianzen surnamed Theologus the deuine for his excellent learning in the scriptures And the same doctrine of iustification by faith alone do many other ancient godly and learned fathers and doctors set downe most plainely in their workes After that these sayings of these ancient doctors were read we said You see that this doctrine and the very words themselues which we doe vse we are iustified by faith onely or faith onely doeth iustifie are not any new inuention of ours but are set downe and pronounced by many ancient and holy fathers of the Church aboue a thousande yeere sithen and more and that being grounded euen vpon the same places of the holy scriptures that we do alleage for our iustification by faith onely Master Campion said but those Doctors and you doe not agree in sense as I said before It is well said we that you cannot denie but that they doe agree with vs in wordes and that they doe gather these wordes euen of the same scriptures which we alleaged for onely faith to iustifie and that therefore these wordes we are iustified freely thorow grace by faith faith without the law without the works of the lawe doeth iustifie which are the wordes of Saint Paul are all one with these words faith only doeth iustifie which was before by you denyed Master Campion said but the trueth of the matter resteth in the sense and meaning of the Doctors What sense is it that you doe speake of said we Master Campion answered We do graunt that it is true that onely Faith doeth iustifie in this sense that is that when we be first brought into the state of grace no good works do go before primam gratiam the first grace or iustification but that our first iustificatiō is by faith only without any works going before but the workes that followe the first grace and iustification said Master Campion doe both iustifie and merite also We alleaged Saint Augustines saying Opera non praecedunt iustificandum sed sequuntur iustificatum Workes doe not preceede a man to be iustified but doe follow him being iustified That is true said Master Campion as I said before of the first grace and iustification but good workes doe goe before the second iustification It is but a small matter said we to graunt y◠no good works doe go before the first grace or iustification when before the same grace there can be no good workes at all And concerning the seconde iustification we replyed to that that Saint Paul speaking of that iustification and alleaging the example and saying of king Dauid therefore sayeth expressely that to a man that doeth beleeue in him that doeth iustifie the wicked his faith is reputed to righteousnes according to the purpose of the grace of God Euen as Dauid setteth downe the blessednesse of a man vnto whome God reputeth righteousnesse without workes Blessed are they whose wickednesse is pardoned and whose sinnes are couered c. Thus sayeth Saint Paul thus sayeth the King and Prophet Dauid teaching plainely that our iustification is by Gods pardoning of our euill workes and not by the merites of our good workes for he saith expressely that iustice is without our workes And S. Paul and King Dauid were in the state of grace when they did thus write and yet doe shew that their iustification then as well as before was without workes Master Campion said a man being in the state of grace may write of the first grace and iustification why not and so did they in that place Yea quoth we but if he be set downe for an example himselfe after that he hath obteined the first grace and continued therein and yet sayth that God reputeth his iustification without any his workes though he haue done many good as Abraham first and then Dauid are here set out for example and as Saint Basill as was before alleaged setteth out Saint Paul himselfe for an example who doeth glorie in the contempt of his owne righteousnesse it is cuident that that iustification or righteousnesse which is before God is without any workes of ours at all and that all iustification of all persons and in all times is by the grace of God through faith onely without any merite of our workes Then they alleaged Saint Iames wordes Faith without charitie is dead making thereby charitie the soule and life of faith Hereunto we made answere that faith without charitie was in deede dead and altogether vaine and vnprofitable But Saint Iames meaning herein was not to make charitie the principall parte or the forme of faith but onely to shewe that by charitie faith is approued and declared to be a true and a liuely faith which we doe most willingly graunt And therewith we alleaged the saying of Thomas de Aquin. being a scholeman of their owne side who saith Deus iustificat effectiuè fides iustificat apprehensiuè opera iustificant declaratiuè That is God doeth iustifie effectually faith doeth iustifie apprehendingly workes doe iustifie declaringly Master Sherwin said it was Fides iustificat instrumentaliter Faith iustifieth instrumentally That worde quoth we doeth make no alteration in sense at all And here you may see howe Saint Paul teaching that we are iustified by faith without workes before God and Saint Iames teaching that we are iustified by workes that is doe declare our selues by our workes vnto men to be iustified do agree Master Campion said that he could yeelde and subscribe vnto that saying of Saint Thomas And we saide that we woulde doe the like for that it is the very true doctrine that we teache howbeit he held his penne from subscribing Then Master Sherwin alleaged these wordes of Saint Paul If I had all faith and haue not charitie I am nothing And he did very vehemently vrge the wordes all faith all faith without charitie is nothing worth Here saith one of the Pamphleters silence was the answere but howe truely let him selfe see for
it was straight answered Master Sherwin you may see that the Apostle speaketh there of faith in working of miracles euen by the wordes of the Apostle him selfe who saith If I should haue all faith so that I could remoue mountaines and haue not charitie I am nothing And when he cryed still omnem fidem all faith and that therefore it must conteine our faith also els we had none at all It was answered by vs If you will not beleeue vs yet let Saint Chrisostomes exposition be of some authoritie with you who calleth it 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 faith not of doctrine but of miracles saith Saint Chrisostome euen as we also do say which faith the wicked may haue as our Sauiour Christ teacheth and therefore all faith to worke miracles doeth not conteine that true faith which doeth iustifie him that hath it Further they obiected Saint Pauls wordes in his Epistle to the Galathians Faith worketh by charitie We answered that vnlesse faith doe worke by charitie it is no faith at all but that made nothing against our iustification by faith onely But here they reasoned against vs thus If faith onely iustifie then it iustifieth without charitie But that was contrary to the text of the Apostles Therefore onely faith doeth not iustifie We answered this Syllogisme consisteth of foure termes For it is one thing to say that faith onely doeth iustifie and another that faith is not without charitie For when we say that onely faith iustifieth we meane not to denie that charitie is ioyned with that faith which iustifieth being inseparably vnited vnto it but that onely faith and not charitie is the meanes by which we imbrace Iesus Christ our iustification and righteousnesse And this we indeuoured to make manifest by an example The fire quoth we hath heate and light which qualities can not bee seuered in that subiect yet the fire burneth by heate onely and not by light Nowe if any will reason thus If the heate of the fire onely burne then it burneth without the light of the fire but that it can not doe Therefore it burneth not by heate only They should shewe them selues to be absurd that so woulde reason sayd we And such is your reason against the iustification of faith only because it can not be separated from charitie Likewise though the parts of mans bodie be ioyned together and one is not without another in a perfect bodie yet doeth the eye onely see and the eare heare onely and euery part hath his distinct office Then Master Sherwin alleaged out of the Epistle to the Ephesians Ipsius sumus factura creati in Christo Iesu in bonis operibus That is We are his workemanship created in Christ Iesus in good workes We looked in the Greeke Testament and found 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ad opera bona vnto good workes and so answered that Saint Paul saith not we are the creatures of God in Christ thorowe good workes but that we are created of God in Christ to do good workes which Master Sherwin looking vpon the greeke Testament coulde not denie Further we told Master Sherwin that if he tooke that place in that sense that we were created in good workes he was contrary to Master Campion who graunted that good workes doe come after the first grace and not to be ioyned with our first creation in Christ Iesus as Master Sherwin would haue it And besides that we did admonish him that the place by him alleaged did of all others most effectually make against theÌ„ and for vs. For immediatly before the wordes by him alleadged Saint Paul sayth thus Gratia enim estis saluati per fidem hoc non ex vobis Dei enim donum est non ex operibus ne quis glorietur That is You are saued by grace through faith and that not of your selues it is the gift of God not of workes least any man should boast himselfe In this sentence of Saint Paul euery parcell quoth we maketh for vs and against you The cause of our saluation is the grace of God the instrument whereby we receiue it is faith the false cause alleadged by you is here excluded that is our workes Master Campion alleadged Qui instus est iustificetur adhuc He that is righteous let him be more and more righteous And thereupon he sayde he would not refuse to subscribe that we be iustified by faith onely so that we would subscribe that being so iustified we ought afterward to walke forward more and more in the workes of righteousnesse We graunted that we would so subscribe But M. Sherwine said vnto M. CaÌ„pion Take heed what you do Then sayde Master Campion If you will so subscribe and graunt withal that those good workes are meritorious or do merite I will subscribe to faith onely Doe you nowe come in with your merite sayde we we will none of it neyther will acknowledge any merite quoth we in respect of our iustification or of the kingdome of heauen but only the merites of Christs passion And so our subscribing was dasht by master Campions addition of merite to that which before he promised without any mention thereof But you doe knowe well sayde master Campion that often mention is made in the scripture of this worde merces that is of rewarde for our good workes And that at the last iudgement it shall be sayde Come into the kingdome ye blessed For I was bungrie and ye fed me c. So that these good workes are mentioned as a cause or a meane at the least of entering into the kingdome of heauen We deny not sayd we but the worde merces is often mentioned in the holy Scriptures and that God will rewarde our good workes farre aboue our deseruing but that merces is ex misâ—…ricordia Domini dantis non ex merito hominis accipientis That reward is of the mercie of God giuing it and not of the merite of man receiuing it For when it is sayd He that giueth a cuppe of colde water shal not loose his reward if you take that reward to be the kingdome of heauen and the lande of the liuing to be giuen for the merite thereof surely you make it to be of more easie purchase than any land in this worlde can be be it neuer so little And concerning the last iudgement the wordes of our Sauiour Come possesse the kingdome prepared for you before the beginning of the worlde may giue you to vnderstand that it is not giuen for the merite of any their good workes which they coulde not doe before they were any thing And the worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Take ye the inheritance of the kingdome sheweth that it is giuen to vs in Christ as inheritaunce which the Father giueth to his children freely and is not purchased by our good workes Besides that though our Sauiour Christ will of his speciall grace and fauour remember those almes done to the poore in his name and
pray all indifferent readers to consider of these maner of dealings For Saint Augustine in that place writeth against the wicked opiniō of those who mistaking Saint Paules wordes of Iustification by sayth without workes do by an euill securitie neglect to liue well not seeking by true faith the helpe of God to the ouercomming of their owne euill concupiscences but doe despise the workes of righteousnes by a dead faith do promise to them selues euerlasting life These be Saint Augustines expresse wordes in that place truely translated which they haue most vntruely and malitiously alleaged against vs against the heresie as they terme it of iustification by faith onely which they woulde haue the simple people to mistake as though wee woulde exclude all things vniuersally sauing faith onely and did vtterly cast away all care of good workes godly life yea and all desire of Gods grace to assiste vs as did they against whom S. Augustine in that place did write But we protest before God and all good men that we neuer meant to make faith the chiefe and onely cause of our iustification but that the grace and mercie of God by our sauiour Iesus Christ promised to the faithfull in his holy worde is the principall and originall cause and very fountaine of our iustification and that faith not a dead faith as they thought against whome S. Augustine doth write but a liuely faith being wrought in our hearts by the said word of God and by the operation of the holy ghost beleeuing Gods promise of his mercy in Christ is the instrumentall cause in vs whereby onely wee receiue our iustification without the merite of our workes and yet being iustified we are most boundē to walke in all good works as much as it shall please God to giue vs grace thereunto for the which we ought to sue by cōtinuall most heartie prayer Which our doctrine you may see to bee most contrarie to the wicked opinion of those against whom S. Augustine writeth in that place and that therefore it is most falsely and malitiously alleaged as against vs who by faith onely iustifying vs meane not to exclude the doing but the merites of our good workes which is no heresie wherewith these men would charge vs but the very truthe it selfe taught in the holy Scriptures and by the auncient godly fathers and learned doctors set down in the very same wordes which we do vse as hath bene before at large declared Of the conclusion of our conference the Pamphleters write thus At the last the Protestantes did make a doe as though some thing had bene wonne when in my soule I protest there was not but in any indifferent audience the aduerse Protestants had bene quite confounded For Master Campion and Sherwin too would haue sayde much more in defence of their cause but one of them by his Commissioners authoritie suddenly made an ende cutting them off from all further speache Thus they do write In deede when we had continued very long and the sunne shining vpon our faces in at the South windowes and the throng being very greate and by occasion of both the heate so intollerable that some of vs were fayne to go out of the chauncel to take breath and to returne againe and Master Campion and wee being nowe come to a very neare point of agreement in the question of iustification as is afore noted in the end of our conference we turning to Master Lieutenaunt sayde If it shall so please you let vs here make an ende With a good will sayd he and so we brake off And here is all the Commissioners authoritie which they speake of that wee or any of vs did take vpon vs. And thus ended our conference with Campion the iudgement of the trueth of their or our reportes whereof wee doe leaue vnto God and to those who were present thereat Surely we by our notes set downe whiles our cōference was yet fresh in memorie and by sundry conferences amongst our selues sithen and with other also who were there present yea and by diligent perusing of the pamphlets written against vs haue endeuoured to set downe all poyntes that were dealt with in our sayd conference with as much trueth concerning the substance of the matter as our diligence and memory and the remembrance of other also could possibly attayne vnto Alexander Nowell William Daiie ¶ The three last dayes conferences had in the Tower with Edmund Campion Iesuite the 18 23 and 27. of September 1581. collected and faithfully set downe by M. Iohn Feilde student in Diuinitie Nowe perused by the learned men themselues and thought meete to be published Ianuarij 1. 1583. ⧠To the Christian Reader grace and peace THou hast here gentle Reader a true report of the whole substance of the conferences had in the Tower the last three dayes faythfully gathered out of the notes of diuers that wrote there and afterwarde perused by the learned men them selues and nowe lastly published by authoritie If any man be inquisitiue why they were set forth no sooner he may vnderstande that being priuate conferences it was thought not much requisite to make thē publikely knowen neither had they bin now set forth if the importunitie of the aduersaries by their sundry vntrue and contrary reportes made and scattered amongst their fauourites had not euen perforce drawen thē forth If Campions answeres be thought shorter thē they were thou must knowe that he had much wast speach which being impertinent is nowe omitted although I protest nothing is cut off from the weight and substance of the matter for of that I made conscience and had speciall regarde Againe if the repliers speaches seeme to be more ample it is because their authorities then alleadged onely in Greeke or Latine are nowe at large put downe both in Greeke Latine and English But for the arguments and answeres I was euen religious faythfully to reporte them as they were Wherein I appeale to all the hearers in Gods sight to whose grace I commit thee Iohn Feilde ⧠A remembrance of the conference had in the Tower with Edmunde Campion Iesuite by William Fulke and Roger Goade Doctours in Diuinitie the 18. of September 1581. as followeth AFter that Master D. Fulke had made a godly prayer for direction in that action that it woulde please God to confirme the faithfull and to confounde the obstinate and wilfull that Campion denying to pray with them had superstitiously all to be crossed himselfe Master D. Fulke beganne with this preface in effect D. Fulke Where as there hath bene some proceeding with you before and we are come by order to the thirde chapter of your booke where you slaunder our Church of Englande the whole Church of God for the definition of the Catholike Church for that we define it so as it shoulde be inuisible we come to prooue both by the Scriptures and Fathers that it is inuisible But this I woulde haue knowen vnto you that our
can not be suffered to exercise this medicine of holsome discipline Camp The disease is continuall ergo the remedy is continual I must tell my Prelates where shal I tel theÌ„ if they be not Goade The remedy is continually necessary holsome but can not coÌ„tinually be vsed Diuers most necessary things are not alwayes in vse It is most necessary the Gospel should be coÌ„tinually preached it is Christes commandement yet this oftentime fayleth as in persecution wheÌ„ the church is driuen into streights and the publique exercise of the worde restrained I deny your argument It is alwayes necessary therefore it is alwayes in vse and practise Many other necessary thinges are wanting many times that ought to be and yet this taketh them not away neither maketh them vayne or vnnecessary c. Campion The disease is common it is perpetual To whom shoulde I haue gone before Luthers time What Prelats should I haue made my complaint vnto in those dayes I must tell my Pastor c. Goade You are answered that in times of persecution this coulde not be and specially in those times of generall Apostacie foretolde by the Apostle 2. Thess. 2. this could not be practised no more then the true preaching of the worde You deale straungely with vs. When you had shut vs in prison embrewed your handes with our blood driueÌ„ the true Church as it were into the wildernesse through your grieuous persecutions and tyrannies so as there coulde be no meetings for publike exercise of religion then you aske where was our Church and to whome we shoulde haue gone before Luthers times Campion Where was your Church for 900. yeeres agoe Whose were Iohn Husse Hierome of Prage the Waldenses c. Were they yours Helpe him Master Doctor Fulke It needeth not this is beside the matter your place is answered The remedy is not ydle or vayne though sometimes men are restrayned from the vse of it Cyprian complayneth aboue 1200. yeeres agoe that for the great persecution that was against the Church they could not meete so often as they desired to execute discipline and yet who will deny but the discipline of the Church is perpetuall It must be vsed when it may bee had A medicine is not an idle medicine in the Apothecaries shoppe nor Galens prescription thereof is vayne because sometimes it can not be had Campion Though of some at sometimes it cannot be had in one place yet it may be had in another There may be some cases wherein I can not tell where the Church is to tell it but if I wil seeke it I may finde it Fulke The words are spoken generally to euery man Si peccauerit aduersusâ—…te frater If thy brother offend against thee c and yet euery man can not obteyne it You that are in prison what Church can you tell if you bee offended will you say the remedy is vayne because you can not vse it Againe there are meane remedies before a man come to this that he should tell the Church hee must first giue priuate admonition and before witnesses which euery man can not do that is offended As to whom shoulde Elias haue complayned when hee knewe none but himselfe Therefore it is no more necessary that there should be a visible Church alwayes to complayne vnto then it is necessary that euery man should alwayes bee able to admonish priuately or to haue two or three witnesses to call vnto him Againe you aunswere your selfe that there may be some cases wherein I can not tell where the Church is to tell it Therefore it was very yll concluded of you that if a man can not alwayes haue a visible Church to make his complaynt vnto the remedie prescribed by our Sauiour Christ is vayne or idle And concerning the name Ecclesia in that text when it is sayde we should tell the Church ye abuse the audience for it meaneth not the whole Church but the consistorie and eldershippe that haue the gouernement of euery particular congregation For howe can a man tell the whole Church on earth or yet the whole parish where he dwelleth but he may tell the company of Elders and gouernors when such are established to haue the execution of discipline and this also may be interrupted by persecution Campion Master Doctor you haue sayde well for mee the worde Ecclesia is taken for the gouernours of the Church and they are alwayes in sight In what place of the Scripture is the worde Ecclesia taken for an inuisible Church you can shewe mee no place Shewe mee one place shewe mee one place if you can Fulke I can shew you a great many But because you call so earnestly for one I will shew you one It is taken for the whole body of the Church therefore for an inuisible church in the first chapter to the Ephesians in the latter ende where the Apostle sayeth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 And he appoynted him head ouer all thinges vnto his Church which is his body and the fulnes of him which filleth all in all So that it is taken for the whole Catholike Church as it containeth all the elect of God those that haue bene are and shal be c. which vniuersall Church is inuisible Campion I graunt it is there taken for the Church triumphant and militant Fulke Ergo it is there taken for an inuisible Church For we speake of it as it conteyneth euery member and is the whole body of Christ whereof some are yet vnborne Campion I graunt it of the whole but the Church militant is visible the other inuisible Fulke But the Catholike Church of Christ being the body of Christ is mysticall ergo insensible Campion Prooue it according to all partes to bee inuisible Fulke It is sufficient for mee to prooue that the Catholike Church which is the whole body of Christ is mystical therfore it is inuisible I speake of the Catholike Church as it is an article of faith For wee beleeue the Catholike Church according to the articles of faith Nowe fayth is of things which are not seene ergo the Catholike Church is inuisible Campion I knowe that the whole Catholike Church and euery part of the same as it is of faith is inuisible but what is this to the Church militant Fulke You vrged me to shewe a place where the word Ecclesia is taken for an inuisible Church and I haue shewed you that it is taken for an inuisible Church wheresoeuer it is taken for the Catholike Church which you confesse to be inuisible both in the whole and euery part Campion So farre as it is of faith Fulke And we speake of it as it is of faith For the whole Catholike Church being an article of fayth is considered no otherwise then as it is of faith neither any part thereof by your owne confession whereof it followeth that the visible Church for which you striue so much is no article of our faith because it is seen
Councils which are gathered of all the Christian world and that euen the general Councils themselues are often corrected the former by the latter when by any tryall of thinges that is opened which was shut vp and that is knowen which was hidden without any swelling of sacrilegious pride without any stiffe necke of arrogancie without any contention of malicious enuie with holy humilitie with Catholike peace with Christian charitie Here you haue a plaine place that only the Scripture cannot erre that all other writers may erre that all prouincial Councils may erre and last of all generall Councils themselues may be corrected the former by the latter therefore without question they may erre Campion I answered before you read that a general Councill may be declared and better explaned but not corrected Fulke It may be amended and therefore corrected There is no difference betweene amending and correcting Campion So farre forth it may be corrected as it may bee better explaned but not to set out thinges that are contrary For generall Councils are not one contrary to the other Fulke Saint Augustine sayeth The generall Council may be ignorant of some thing at the beginning that afterwardes by experience may be amended something may be close which afterwarde may be opened it may be hid to one Councill that may be knowen of another And the Antithesis in these wordes must needes stand that only the Scriptures cannot erre and therefore are not to be corrected As for Councils generall and prouinciall and Bishops writings of all sorts may be corrected and therefore they may erre Campion A generall Councill may erre in matter of fact as in condemning and absoluing some Bishops c. but it can not erre in matters of doctrine Fulke Doe you know whereof Augustine speaketh in this place c. Campion Yea as well as you Fulke Why then declare it before this company Campion He speaketh of a matter of fact Fulke Nowe you shewe your selfe altogether ignorant of the matter for he speaketh of the Councill of Carthage that was helde in Cyprians time wherein was concluded an error of faith For they had decreed that such were to be rebaptized as had bene baptized of heretikes With which decree and Cyprians authoritie who was President of the Councill when Saint Augustine was pressed he answereth that onely the Scripture coulde not erre but all other both Bishops writings and Councils might erre and therefore might be reformed c. Campion He speaketh not of a matter of faith as appeareth by the worde experiment For there can bee no experiment in a matter of faith heresie cannot be amended Fulke These are vaine shiftes Men may finde by experience they haue erred Campion The worde amending sheweth that it was in maners Fulke To be corrected and amended is all one and may bee as well in faith as in maners and the argument whereof he entreateth and the Antithesis he maketh betweene the Scriptures and all other authorities sheweth plainely that hee meaneth of errour of faith But seeing you haue nothing else to answere I will leaue it to the consideration of them that bee wise and learned and so long as you bring no matter I will not answere your wordes Goade Seeing you stande vpon Councils I will proceede that way General Councils haue erred ergo c. Campion I deny the Antecedent Goade They are contrary one to another c. Campion I deny it Goade The Councill of Constantinople and the Councill of Nice are contrary Campion They are not Goade They are contrary in the matter of Images namely the Councill of Constantinople condemning the setting vp of Images in the Church and the Councill of Nice afterwarde allowing Images Campion You can not shewe that they were contrary one to an other Goade It shal be shewed afterward I will come to another generall Council The Council of Constance hath erred in matter of faith ergo a general Council hath erred Campion I deny the Antecedent Goade The Councill of Constance erred in taking away the cuppe from the common people this was a matter of faith ergo that Council erred in matter of faith Campion Thus we shall runne into all questions and then we shal haue done this time twelue moneths This was no error in the Council for I say there is no commandement that the people should be partakers of the cuppe Goade By the same reason you may aswell exclude the people from the bread also but though you haue in this poynt denied the force of Christes institution yet the commaundement in the same is plaine Bibite ex hoc omnes Drinke ye all of this And Paul interpreteth it so 1. Cor. 11. deliuering aswell the cuppe as the breade to the whole Church euen as hee had receaued of the Lord. The Council of Constance decreeth against it ergo a manifest and foule errour in that Councill Campion Doeth Saint Paul make it a precept that the lay people should receiue the cuppe Goade Paul iudued with the spirit of God giueth a flat precept in the same chapter verse 28. Probet seipsum homo Let a mā try himselfe and so let him eate of that breade and drinke of that cuppe These are playne preceptes Let him eate Let him drinke and here is as great a commādement to the whole church for the one as for the other Campion The place is to be vnderstoode when he doeth receiue and vnder the obedience of the Church it may be done And this that you make so much a doe about I haue seene it done to many Catholikes my selfe but it is not so necessary that you should make such adoo about it Goade It is not left free but an expresse commaundement and therefore necessary It is the Imperatiue mode and therefore a commaundement I maruayle howe you can stande in this being so plaine Fulke Here are two thinges Probet Edat bibat Let him examine himselfe and let him eate and drinke and both be commaundementes First he must be prepared and then he must eate and not onely eate but he must drinke also For as the institution is of eating and drinking so is the commandement of the Apostle drawen from the institution And if there be no commandement then is no man bounde to receiue the Lordes supper Camp No it is a thing indifferent by the institutiō touching the common people sauing that only the authoritie of the Church hath layde it vpon vs here you may see the authoritie of the church in things not commanded Goade It is a commandement both in the institution and by the Apostle 1. Corinth 11. saying That which I receaued I deliuered grounding his commandement vpon the institution and therefore commanded in the institution Camp Yea he saith when he will or when he doeth receiue then let him examine him selfe Fulke These are your owne wordes there is no such worde here When he will and when he doeth he must proue him selfe and so he
Church though you call it a small matter and yet you wil not teach the people that it is a smal matter Fulk I said that inuocation of Saints as it was held by some of the latter sort of auncient fathers was but a small error in comparison of such grosse heresies which the Popish Church doeth now holde and in comparison of such inuocation of Saints as is now mainteined and practised by the Papistes but your accusatioÌ„ of my booke was written therefore you can not alter it Camp Lend me your booke that I may charge you The booke being deliuered after a litle turning he sayde This is not the booke that I meant Fulke This is the booke that you named Camp I meant your answere vnto Doctor Allens articles because Bristow hath confuted it Fulk This is a poore shift wheÌ„ you haue slandered my booke and named one to flie to another so would you do with that booke you name now For I am sure that neither in that nor any other that euer I wrote your slander can be founde Goad There is an other thing ye were desirous to see touching the Councill of Constantinople and the Councill of Nice one of them being alleaged to be coÌ„trary to the other about setting vp of Images in the Church the Councill of Constantinople disalowing Images and the second Councill of Nice allowing theÌ„ and condemning the other Councill as erroneous Camp That of Constantinople was not a generall nor lawfull Councill but a certaine Iconomachy and may rather be called a conuenticle then a generall Councill and therefore no contrarietie hereby proued betweene generall Councils Goade It appeareth it was generall and solemnely gathered in the chiefe citie heare the wordes in the title of the Councill Sancta magna uniuersalis Synodus quae iuxtagratiaÌ„ Dei per pium deuotorum orthodoxorum nostrorum Imperatorum ConstaÌ„tini Leonis decretum in hac diuinormâ—… studiosa regia ciuitate congregata est c. The holy great and vniuersall Synode which by the grace of God and the godly decree of our godly Emperours Constantine and Leo is gathered in this holy and royall citie This Councill did confute by the Scriptures the setting vp of Images in the Church out of Deut. 20. Thou shalt not make to thy selfe any Image nor likenes of any thing c. and Deut. 4. For which cause saith this Counsaile you heard the voyce of wordes in the middest of the fire but you sawe no image Contrary to this the Councill of Nice doth accurse those that will not worship images in these words Qui venerandas imagines non veneraÌ„tur Anathema Accursed be they that worship not holy images So it appeareth that these two Councils were contrary and therefore one of them did erre But I will proceede to the next place You doubted also whether it were to be founde in Saint Augustine that there is no Miracle in the Sacrament Now you may heare his owne wordes To. 3. De Trinitate lib. 3. cap. 10. Sicut panis ad hoc factus in accipiendo Sacramento consumitur Sed quia haec hominibus nota sunt quia per homines fiunt honorem tanquam religiosa possunt habere stuporem tanquam mira non possunt As the bread ordained for this purpose is consumed in receauing the Sacrament But because these things are knowen vnto men are done by men they may haue honour or reuerence as holy things but they can not be wondered at as things strange and miraculous Here you haue Augustines wordes against miracle in the Sacrament Camp In deede there is no such euident miracle visibly appearing as when Christ cured yâ— lame the blinde c. but yet there is a great miracle which our faith doeth acknowledge Goade Augustine speaketh simply against miracle so that whether it be visible or inuisible both is excluded Beside it is perpetuall in all miracles that there must bee some outward sensible signe Further you doubted of Inhaerens iustitia righteousnes inherent in our selues which I auouched to bee erroneous doctrine set forth in the late Council of Trent The wordes are these Concil Trident. cap. 7. Verè iusti nominamur sumus iustitiam in nobis recipientes vnusquisque suam secundum mensuram quam spiritus sanctus partitur singulis prout vult secundum propriam cuiusque dispositionem cooperationem Et cap. 16. Quae quum iustitia nostra dicitur quia per eam nobis inhaerenteÌ„ iustificamur illa eadem Dei est quia a Deo nobis infunditur per Christi meritum We are called and in deede are truely righteous receiuing in our selues euery man his own righteousnes according to the measure which the holy Ghost doth deuide to euery one euen as he will according to euery mans own proper disposition cooperation For that righteousnes which is called ours because we are iustified by it inherent in our selues the selfe same is the righteousnes of God because it is powred into vs from God by the merit of Christ. Camp I did not doubt of inherent righteousnes in our selues whether it were in the Council of Trent for I defend mainteine it as the Councill teacheth it you saye it is by imputation of Christes righteousnes being without vs whereby wee are iustified and I say wee are iustified by that righteousnesse which is within vs though it be not of vs. Goade The place which I vrged against you the other day beside many other in the scripture is direcly against this doctrine 2. Cor. 5. 21. He hath made him to be fin for vs which knewe no sinne that we should be made the righteousnes of God in him Fulke Well nowe we are to come to the question You holde that the natural body blood of Christ is contained in the Sacrament of the Lordes supper Your wordes are Christ is present in the Sacrament substaÌ„tially very God man in his natural body Camp I say there is really present in the Sacrament the naturall body and blood of Christ vnder that bread and cup. Fulke What meane you by these wordes vnder the bread and cup that we may agree of termes Campion You knowe in the bread is whitenes c. that is not in his body make your argument Fulke So I will The cup is not the naturall blood of Christ Ergo the other parte is not his naturall body Campion There is present in the cup the naturall blood of Christ. Go to my wordes Fulke Well The naturall blood of Christ is not present in the cup Ergo the naturall body is not present in the other part Campion The naturall blood of Christ is present in the cup. Fulke Thus I disproue it The wordes of Christes institution be these This cup is the new testament in my blood But the naturall blood of Christ is not the newe testament in his blood Ergo the naturall blood of Christ is not in the cup. Camp The ward Is is neither in the
accidents are not that he spake of Campion This is a booke and yet I see not the substance of a booke but whitenesse and other accidents Fulke Who would say that whitenes is the booke none but a madde man neither will any say that whitenesse is the body of Christ or called the body of Christ. Therefore by the word of heauenly bread and of the Sacrament he meaneth the whole sacrament I see you haue nothing but shamelesse shiftes against so cleare authoritie of your owne Canon law speaking against you Campion If you dare let me shewe Augustine and Chrysostome if you dare Fulke Whatsoeuer you can bring I haue answered already in writing against other of your side and yet if you thinke you can adde any thing put it in writing and I will answere it Campion Prouide me ynke and paper and I will write Fulke I am not to prouide you ynke and paper Campion I meane procure me that I may haue libertie to write Fulke I knowe not for what cause you are restrained of that libertie and therefore I will not take vpon me to procure it Campion Sue to the Queene that I may haue libertie to oppose I haue bene nowe thrise opposed it is reason I should oppose once Fulke I will not become a suter for you Camp Sue to the Queene for me it is but an easie suite you being in such credit with your Prince may if you dare procure this matter Catholikes of their prince can obtaine a greater matter and are not you Protestants in such credit with your Prince that you can obteine so small a matter Fulke We meane not to trie our credit in this matter But if you write any thing I will answere you in writing Campion Procure it Fulke It were to small purpose I haue answered already Heskins and Saunders which are like to bring as much as you Campion I am not worthy to cary their bookes after them And you your selfe Sir may be scholer to either of them Goade If Christ be present in his naturall body he must be present in his true body But Christ is not present in his true body Ergo not in his naturall body Camp I deny your minor He is present in his true body Goade A true body must haue the properties of a true body But this hath not the properties of a true body Ergo it is not a true body Camp I deny againe your minor It hath the properties of a true body Goade AmoÌ„gst the properties of a true body this is one special to be circuÌ„scribed in place not to be in many places at once But in your transubstantiation Christes body is made to be in many yea in infinite places at once Ergo it hath not the properties of a true body Campion It is in respect of a miracle not seene with eye but with our faith Goade Now you runne againe to miracle It hath bene before shewed you out of Augustine that there is no miracle in the Sacrament and your selfe sayd that miracles are now ceased Campion It is a great miracle to conuert a sinner yea greater then to make the worlde and this kinde of miracle is dayly Goade Now you would go from the matter this is not properly a miracle But to the purpose Answere the argument That which is in many places at once is not a true body But as you teach Christ in the Sacrament is bodily in many places at once Ergo not a true body Campion The propertie of the fire is to burne yet the three children in the fire 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 â—…ed Wiâ—… you therâ—…e 〈◊〉 that it was truely fire Goade That was in deede and properly a miracle whereof the Scripture testifieth which visibly was seene Campion So is this a miracle Goade Beside it is not sensible which must be in a miracle There is no ground of the worde for it And faith must be grounded on the worde of God Campion The word teacheth that God is omnipotent Goade You that wil reason from Gods omnipotencie must prooue also his will Omnia quae voluit fecit Hee hath done all things whatsoeuer he would Camp Nay you must proue it is not his will Goade I wil proue it out of Theodoret. Dialo 3. qui inscribitur impatibilis writing of the glorified body of Christ after his resurrection Non est mutatum in naturam diuinitatis sed post resurrectionem est quidem immortale ù corruptione interitu alienum diuina gloria plenum sed tamen corpus est quod habet propriam circumscriptionem The body of Christ is not changed into the nature of his diuinitie but after his resurrection it is in deede a body immortall free from corruption and ful of diuine glory but yet it is a body that hath a proper circumscription Campion When it pleaseth Christ to worke a miracle he is not bound to the natural properties he doth not alwayes practise all his properties His body ascending into heauen had the true properties of a body yet did not then practise them It is against the naturall propertie of a body to ascend vpward Goade This ascention of Christes body being an article of our faith is grounded vpon the worde that his body was taken vp neuerthelesse remayned a true body circumscribed in place Augustine sayth we must not take away the trueth of Christs body Epist. ad Dard. 57. Cauendum ne ita diuinitatem astruamus hominis vt veritatem corporis auferamus cui profecto immortalitatem dedit naturam non abstulit Wee must take heede that we doe not so maintayne the Godhead of Christ being man that we take away the trueth of his body whereunto hee gaue immortalitie but tooke not away the nature Campion You neede not bring these places I graunt that Christ hath a true body But you may as well deny the ascension of Christ being against the propertie of a true body to ascend vpwarde Goade I answered before that this is an article of our faith grounded vpon the expresse worde of God And because we do beleeue by the word that Christes body is ascended and sitteth at the right hand of God and from thence shal come to iudge therefore we cannot beleeue the coÌ„trary that Christ is yet present on earth So Augustine reasoneth in the same Epistle Christus Iesus vbique est per id quod Deus in coelo autem per id quod homo Spacia locorum tolle corporibus nusquam erunt quia nusquam erunt nec erunt Christ iesus is euery where as he is God but as he is man he is in heauen Take away space of places from bodies they shall be in no place and because in no place they shall haue no being at all Campion I thinke I haue answered sufficiently he is present not naturally but miraculously Goade Why then ye destroy the propertie of a true bodie and so consequently take away the trueth of a body Campion I grant the
Augustine Camp The words are forcible of bread is made flesh Sermo Christi est operatorius The word of Christ is of power efficacy Goade That is of common bread is now made Christes body appointed to be a sacrament of his body And although this be a wonderfull chaunge by the force of Christes word and Institution that common bread should be chaunged to a spirituall vse yet Ambrose doeth not say that the substance of breade is chaunged but rather the contrary that the substance doeth still remaine as appeareth by diuers examples of miracles he alleadgeth in the same chapter and also by his wordes Vt sint quae erant in aliud commutentur That they should remaine and be as they were also be chaunged touching the vse Now you haue vrged what you can out of Ambrose I will returne againe to followe mine argument drawen from the wordes of the Institution as they are explaned by S. Paul 1. Cor. 10. 16. Panis quem frangimus c. The bread which we breake is it not the partaking of the body of Christ Whereby appeareth that after sanctification remayneth bread for he sayth the bread which we breake and breaking followeth after blessing or sanctifying It can not be vnderstoode the body of Christ for that can not be broken So by this place after consecration remaineth bread still Campion It reteineth still the name of bread in diuers respects first because it was bread before and secondly because it hath the shew of bread as Moyses rod being turned into a serpeÌ„t keepeth still the name it had before Goade You are nowe wandring into discourses I will not followe you The Apostles plaine wordes taketh away your answere It followeth in the text We are all partakers of the same bread he sayth not the same that was bread before and it is consecrate before it commeth to participation And the same Apostle in the next chapter oftentimes repeateth and calleth it breade when it commeth to be receiued after sanctification Campion I haue giuen you two causes why it is so called I will adde the third because of the analogie betweene the bread and that which feedeth our soules Make a Syllogisme Goade I vrge the wordes of the Apostle there needeth no Syllogisme answere plainely and directly Campion I haue giuen three causes why it is called bread Goade Your causes can not stand For touching your comparison of the rod turned into a serpent there appeared a sensible chaunge as is vsuall in miracles but here is no such thing in the sacrament and therefore the comparison holdeth not And for the analogie it maketh directly against you For euen as the bread receiued feedeth the body so â—…eth Christ the soule But if when it commeth to be receiued into the body there be no bread in deede as you say then where is your analogie Campion It suffiseth that it was bread before and so appeareth the analogie by the feeding of our soules Goade What doeth the bread feede our soules Camp Yea Christ that is the bread of life feedeth our soules Make a Syllogisme and then we shal see whether your argumeÌ„t hath any face or force Goade Wee are come to the wordes and authoritie of the Scripture If the wordes of Christes Institution and all these manifest places of the Apostle be of no force then I confesse mine argument to be nothing I leaue you to iudgement Fulke Your answere is taken away by the worde breaking The breade which wee breake c. The bodie of Christ is not broken but the breade and not that which appeareth to bee breade Campion The bread is broken by qualitie and not by substance Can substance be broken Bulke Bread is broken And bread is substance Therefore substance is broken When stickes are broken shal we say that the subance of them is not broken but the accidents this is foolish Sophistrie But I will reason thus with you There is something in the Sacrament materiall which goeth the way of all meates Ergo there is bread and wine Campion Whatsoeuer becommeth of all those qualities the colour the taste the quantitie c. it happeneth to them as to accidentes for it is certaine there remayneth neyther bread nor wine Fulke The taste goeth not that way nor in deede any of the accidentes vnaltered but heare what Origen sayeth in Matth. cap. 15. Quod si quic quid in os ingreditur in ventrem abit in secessum eijcitur ille cibus qui sanctificatur per verbum Dei perque obsecrationem iuxta id quod habet materiale in ventrem abit in secessum eijcitur Caeterum iuxta precationem quae illi accessit pro portione fidei fit vtilis efficiens vt perspicax fiat animus spectans ad id quod vtile est Nec materia panis sed super illum dictus sermo est qui prodest non indignè comedenti illum Et haec quidem de typico Symbolicoque corpore Camp The quantitie is auoyded and other accidents Fulke It is monstruous that you speake Origen sayeth the materiall part of the Sacrament and the matter of bread I will reade his wordes in Englishe If whatsoeuer entreth into the mouth goeth into the belly and is cast out into the draught euen that meate also which is sanctified by the worde of God and by prayer according to that which it hath materiall goeth into the belly and is cast forth into the draught But according to the prayer which is added vnto it after the portion of faith it is made profitable causing that the minde may be made cleare of sight looking to that which is profitable Neyther is it the matter of bread but the worde spoken ouer it which profiteth him that eateth it not vnworthily And these things are spoken of the typicall and symbolicall body Campion I haue answered The accidents go the quantitie qualitie and such like Fulke The place is playne Origen acknowledgeth a materiall part of the Sacrament which is substance In what praedicament is Materia Campion In none Materia taken indefinitely is in no praedicament for it is in all praedicaments The matter of substance is in substance of quantitie in quantitie c Fulke Wel then the matter of substance is substaÌ„ce The matter of bread is the matter of substance therfore the matter of bread is substance Then it is substance and not accidentes which is auoyded by Origens iudgement Campion He sayth not the matter of bread is auoyded Fulke He sayeth that meate which is sanctified according to that which it hath materiall is auoyded Meate is that which feedeth accidents feede not Therefore accidents are not called meate Campion Accidentes doe feede and that I will stande to prooue Fulke Philosophie Physieke and Diuinitie are much beholding to you It was neuer heard of before that bare accidentes without substance could feede or nourish Campion He meaneth the matter of the sacrament and not the materiall substance of bread which is
Christ. Goad It is no sporting matter we are in earnest and about weightie matters Fulk These speaches may become a Iesuite but are not semely for a Christian. This is like your iugling tricke the other daye which ye said belike Christ did play Goade I will now come to examine the ground whereupon ye would build your transubstantiation and I reason thus If the bread and wine be transubstantiate then it is grounded vpon some part of the Scripture But it is grounded vpon no part thereof Ergo the bread and wine are not transubstantiat Camp I deny your Minor it is grounded vpon some part Goad If vpon any then vpon the wordes of the institution This is my body But not vpon those wordes Ergo vpon no part of Scripture Camp I deny your Minor It is grod̄ed manifestly vpon those wordes of Christ. Goad If vpō this place then vpon the true sense of the wordes But not vpon the true sense Ergo not vpon this place Camp It is groūded both vpon the words the true sense also Goad If vpon the true sense thē it is a plaine a proper speach But it is not a proper speache Ergo not vpon the true sense Camp It is a proper speache Goad It is a figuratiue speache Ergo not a proper Camp So farre forth as it is figuratiue it is not proper It may be figuratiue and proper both Goad This is straunge but ye shall heare the iudgement of y◠fathers that it is merely figuratiue Augustine epist. 23. in y◠wordes before alleaged maketh it a Metonimical speache when by reason of the neere similitude the name of the thing it self is attributed to the signe which he saith is vsual in sacraments So Circumcision is called the Lordes couenant So the Pascall lambe is called y◠passeouer The same Augustine vpon the 3. Psalme Christi mirāda patientia adhibuit Iudam ad cōuiuium in quo corporis sanguinis sui figuram discipulis tradidit The great patience of Christ receaued Iudas vnto his feast wherein he gaue a figure of his bodie and blood vnto his disciples Camp Wherfore bring ye this it is from the matter in questiō we spake euen nowe of proper speaches this is not a proper argument to the matter Goad I am come to this point orderly to proue the speache to be figuratiue and not proper and now ye see your selfe brought in some streightes ye would drawe me back againe but answere out place of Tertullian against Marcion lib. 4. Which doth notably expound the wordes of the Institution to be figuratiuely spoken Camp We shall then go to the forenoones question Goade No It serueth for the point wee are now come vnto being verie weightie to expounde the wordes of the Institution This is my body Wherupon ye would build your transubstantiation Belike you feare the place of Tertulliā are loth to come to it Camp I feare not let vs heare it we lacke a moderator Goad I would we had one wee shoulde then dispute more orderly The wordes are Christus acceptum panem distributum discipulis suis corpus suūillud fecit hoc est corpus meū dicendo id est figura corporis mei figura autem nō fuisset nisi veritatis esset corpus The bread which Christ tooke gaue to his disciples he made his body saying this is my body that is a figure of my body but it could not haue bene a figure vnlesse Christ had a true body Camp I answere your place of Tertullian two wayes First for the vnderstanding of the people and after in respect of the learned For the people thus He had to do with the heretique Marcion who denied that Christ had a true body Tertullian proueth that Christ had a true body because hee gaue a true body to his disciples saying this is my body The wordes that follow Id est figura corporis mei are not Tertullians but are added by the Heretique who would haue Christ to haue had but a figure or shew of a body and not a true body Tertullian saith to the heretique Christ saith this is my body thou saiest a figure admit it were a figure yet it must be a figure of a true bodie Goade You shew your selfe ignorant in this place of Tertull. which is a knowen familiar place the whole wordes are Tertullians nothing at all here added by the heretique Marcion both the wordes sense of Tertullian is plaine consider better of them Camp Tertullian tooke vpon him the person of the heretique maketh the obiectiō which he thought y◠heretike would obiect Goad You are greatly deceaued in this place of Tertullian who reasoneth thus against Marcion very substantially to proue that Christ had a true not a phantasticall body as Marcion supposed That must needes haue a true body whereof there is a figure But Christ in the Institution of his supper gaue a figure of his body when he said This is my body that is a figure of my body Ergo Christ hath a true body This is Tertulliās reason as it appeareth in the next clause Figura autē nō esset nisiver it at is esset corpus But there could not be a figure of a body except it had relation vnto a true body And in the next words following yet more plainely Caeterum vacuares quod est phātasma figuram capere non potest But an empty or vaine thing such as is a phātasme can not be capable of a figure Take the booae and peruse this place ye shall finde it to be as I haue opened the minde of Tertullian Campion I know the place I made one answere before in respect of the people nowe mine other answere is for the learned that Tertullian vseth to alleage many harde and obscure places and figures out of the olde testament hee must be read with iudgement and great diligence the wordes Idest figura are not in way of exposition but of obiection Goade You shew your skill in the fathers This is not Tertullians exposition onely but also Augustines vpon the thirde Psalme before alleaged and Tom. 6. against Adamantus Non dubitauit Dominus dicere hoc est corpus meū quum signū daret corporis sui The Lord doubted not to say this is my body when hee gaue a figure of his body Camp Then belike ye woulde altogether exclude from the sacrament Christ the substance making him altogether absent allowing onely of a bare signe in the sacrament Goad The wordes are Augustines that Christ gaue a signe of his bodie Howebeit wee exclude not the substance which is Christ him selfe who together with the signe is receiued by faith of the godly and so we make not a bare signe but we say he is not vpon earth touching his body included in the sacrament Campion It is well knowen to the learned that the signe excludeth not the thing signified Goade I graunt neither do I exclude the thing It is
and brought vp in this realme in schooles places where good learning hath bene taught so that he might haue bene a good instrument in this common wealth and Gods Church but contrary to his bringing vp his friendes expectation hope that this Church might haue conceaued of him like an vnnaturall man to his countrey degenerated from an English man an Apostata in religion a fugitiue from this realme vnloyal to his Prince hath not onely fled to the man of Rome an aduersarie to Christ and his doctrine but hath gotten a courage from that Romaniste with certaine other his sectaries to come into this realme againe to vndermine the Gospell of Christ to seduce Gods people and withdrawe her Maiesties lawfull subiectes to disobedience and sedition and hath bene disguised in Ruffians apparel in diuers places of this realme to plant secretely that blasphemous Masse and other Poperie whereunto it appeareth hee hath allured many vnstable fooles and in Yorkeshire where his Sectaries disciples are apprehended iustly imprisoned nowe they rage as I heare say and curse him that euer he came there So ye see what maner of mā we are to talke withal What good we shall do with him the Lord doeth knowe other maner of men then we are and of another calling were more meete to talke with him then we notwithstanding we will doe our best that we can God giue it good effect As for you Campion I heare say that you vse to scoffe and iest at such as come to conferre with you we come not for that purpose it is not our profession yet I giue you warning Si quam maledicendo coeperis voluptatem eam malè audiendo amittes Now to the question which is that the scriptures containe all things sufficient to saluation against the assertion of your booke For you say that the Lutherans haue cut off many bookes from the body of the new Testament and so diuided them from the Canonicall scripture which is not true Camp Yes that they haue and therein they haue done euill Walker Here Master Walker reade the words out of Campions challenge Campion Luther hath cut off the Epistle of Iames the second epistle of Iohn Iude and the seconde of Peter Luther hath found fault with these and improued them in his prefaces vpon those Epistles Walker Luther hath not doubted of them himselfe but shewed that others haue doubted of them Campion It is one thing to doubt an other thing to cut off Bring me the bookes and I will shewe that he hath cut them off Walker That can not bee shewed if the bookes were here For the Doctors doe not agree concerning these bookes that are of the Canon Some recite more some recite lesse as Origen Hierome and others and yet it were hard to say that they cut off any of the Canonicall bookes They doe as Luther may shewe what bookes were doubted of in their time and yet no whitte preiudice the bookes of the Canonicall Scripture Campion Well I say whatsoeuer they might doe then yet now seeing the Church hath otherwise determined it is blasphemie for any to doubt of them The Lutherans doe doubt of them bring me the bookes and I will shewe where Luther doubteth and therefore blasphemeth because the Church hath taken away the doubt videlicet the third Councill of Carthage and that of Laodicea Walker I do not professe my selfe a Lutheran but a Christian But if olde fathers and olde Councils haue not receiued these bookes for Canonical and bookes to ground our faith vpon then can not new men nor the Tridentine Council being ful of errors make thē Canonicall August de doct Christ. lib. 2. ca. 8. leaueth out Baruch the two last bookes of Esdras Hieronymus praes in li. Reg. Hūc prologū galeatū principiū vocat He saith Igitur Sapientia quae vulgo Salomonis inscribitur Iesu filij Syrach liber Iudith Tobias pastor nō sunt in Canone Macchabaeorū primū librū Hebraicū reperi secūdus Graecus est quod ex ipsa phrafi probari potest Eusebius also ecclesi hist. lib. 6. cap. 18. fol. 368. sequentibus omittit tertiū quartū Esdrae Tobiae Iudith Baruch Sapiētia Ecclesiastici Machabaeorum libros Paulo post De eo inquit qui est apud Hebraeos nonnulli dubitauerunt c. Sed ego dico ficut mihi à maioribus traditum est quia manifestissimè Pauli est Ibi de secunda Petri Epistola à nōnullis dubitatur De duabus vltimis Iohannis Epistolis apud quosdā dubia sententia He omitteth in the forenamed place the third fourth booke of Esdras the bookes of Tobie Iudith Baruch of Wisdome of Ecclesiasticus of the Macchabees A litle after Cōcerning that saith he which is written to the Hebrues many haue doubted but I say as hath bene deliuered vnto mee from mine Elders because it appeareth most manifestly to be of Paules There also concerning the second Epistle of Peter he sayth that it was doubted of many and so with some were the two last Epistles of Iohn The same Eusebius lib. 4. cap. 26. loquens de Melitone Episcopo Sardensis Ecclesiae qui recitans volumina veteris Testamenti omittit Esdras Tobi Hester Iudith Baruch Sapientiae Syrach Macchabaeorum c. Speaking of Melito the Bishop of the Church of Sardis who reckening vp the volumes of the olde Testament he omitteth Esdras Tobie Hester Iudith Baruch Wisedome Syrach the bookes of the Macchabees c. And the Laodicean Councill omitteth Lukes Gospel the Apocalyps You see therefore that these old fathers haue left these bookes out of the Canon and yet were they neyther called heretiques nor blasphemers Campion It is not lawfull to cut off the bookes of the olde Testament from the Canon which not onely as I haue sayd Luther hath done but also Caluine The one hath reiected those bookes I haue named and the other reiecteth the bookes of Tobie Ecclesiasticus the booke of Wisdome the bookes of Maccabees Baruch and the like which are de syncero Canone Walker What is this to that I haue saide I haue shewed that the olde Doctors haue refused them for Canonicall and therefore so many may we refuse and they them selues wil de no further admitted then they agree with the Canonicall Scriptures and these bookes which you name haue alwayes bene esteemed Apocrypha Augustine contra Maximinum Arrianorum Episcopum lib. 2. Cap. 14. Nec ego Nicenum nec tudebes Ariminense tanquam praeiudicaturus proferre Concilium nec ego huius authoritate nec tuistius debueris Scripturarum authoritatibus non quorumcumque proprijs sed vtrisque communibus testibus res cum re causa cum causa ratio cum ratione concertet c. August against Maximinus the Bishop of the Arrians Neither oughtest thou to bring the Council of Arimine nor I the Nicene as it were to preiudice the trueth neither should I be holden with the authoritie of this nor thou of
of the weakenesse of his stile is in the Apostle an humilitie comming from the holy Ghost Charke You answere not to the Argument therefore to auoyde the cauil consider the Syllogisme againe in this sort Whatsoeuer is the worde of God is full sound and perfect it doeth neither aske nor neede pardon in any respect But the second booke of Marchabees doth both neede aske pardon in some respect Therefore it is not the worde of God Norton If you will stay a while and speake leasurely you shall haue the Argument written and while it is writing if you will haue any thing added or changed it shall be done It will be more profitable for the hearers and greater ease for your selues Camp With a good will I answere In it selfe and for it selfe it neither needeth nor asketh pardon but for circumstance In respect of dainty eares it may aske pardon Charke Why Campion shall the holy Ghost begge pardon in respect of daintie eares Camp Syr Put this in also that I say it was in respect of the stile for the forme and the maner of it Norton Well I haue put it in so Charke Let him put in all his shiftes helpes clogging his answeres as much as he will we will cast the clogges vpon his owne heeles and thus I reason agaynst all your cauils Whatsoeuer is in the worde of God is all of the holy Ghost both for matter for stile and for circumstance and the holy Ghost asketh no pardon for any of these Therfore the 2. booke of the Machabees asking pardon is not of the holy Ghost nor canonical scripture Here Campion â—…eeing hastie before master Norton had written it through out master Norton willed him to stay a little Campion replied that it was losse of time To which Master Norton answered againe that it was a gaining of the time He desired that the word all might bee inferred in the Antecedent Charke I sayd all Norton So it is and rightly set downe Camp Then I answere thus This circumstance of asking pardon is of the holy Ghost for it is a speach of humilitie proceeding from the holy Ghost as is Saint Paules speach Rudis sum sermone I am rude in speach Et non in persuasibilibus verbis humanae sapientiae Not in the perswasible wordes of mans wisedome Charke Rudis sum sermone commeth oft and rudely in and yet the alledging of it hath bene disproued long ago Neuerthelesse seeing it pleaseth you so wel it shal be a weapoÌ„ of your owne giuing to vse against your selfe For the Apostle of purpose auoyding the wisdome of mans eloquence doth iustifie that which his aduersaries called rudenesse of speach as lawfull and good Neither doth he as you imagin confesse any want or craue pardon Therefore your example is false deceitfull and vnlearned It is a trim thing for you to abuse the multitude vnder opinion of great learning and to match those that are no scriptures with scriptures sometime affirming one thing and another time another sometime that the Apostles speach is rude and the stile base and needeth pardon in respect of daintie eares and now last that it needeth no pardon but is done for humilitie whereas the holy Ghost neuer asketh pardon of man for any thing he doth for that were to bring God vnder man and make the spirit of God subiect to the allowance or disallowance of sinfull flesh Camp I answere that neither this of the Macchabees nor Pauls speach hath need of pardon in it selfe Charke It is too too much absurd to accuse the holy ghost of waste and needles speach For if there needed no pardon it was not according to the holy Ghost to craue it Camp I haue said neither this nor the Apostles speach needed any pardon in it selfe and yet it was not waste and needlesse because it proceeded of humilitie Charke Will you charge the holy ghost with dissimulation speaketh he one thing and meaneth another Camp I say it was not waste because it proceeded of humilitie to craue pardon Charke Wel I proue my assertion against this your imagined humilitie of the holy Ghost to sinfull flesh Whatsoeuer is without cause is waste and needlesse But your self confesse it to be without cause for the holy ghost to craue pardon Therefore by your owne confession it is waste and needlesse Camp I denie the Minor For there is cause For in trueth the stile is simple Charke How often haue you granted the Minor saying he needed not to aske pardon now as forgetting your selfe you say there is cause of asking pardoÌ„ For say you in truth the stile is simple Your speaches are contradictory Set it downe that yâ— aduersarie is not at one with him selfe Besides he was driuen before to grant the stile is not base or simple Camp I haue set downe no contrarietie but in respect Char. In respect is a simple shift Are not these contradictorie propositions He needeth not pardon but asketh it in humilitie and He needeth pardon for in trueth the stile is simple Camp I pray you read the place of the Maccabees Charke Thus you retire and aske moreouer that which needeth not For the place is well knowen and was read before But I will read it againe Et si quidem bene vt historiae competit hoc ipse velim si autem minus dignè concedendum est mihi This I would haue all the companie marke and vnderstand whom you labor with indirect speaches to abuse draw from the truth that whether the authour of this booke excuse himself craue pardon in these wordes for his stile or for his storie neither can be of the holy ghost because as hath bene proued at large the holy ghost faileth nothing at all in any point of speach of matter or of circumstance Thus your distinctions and cause fall together Camp I haue answered you in what respect he craueth pardon and if that cannot satisfie you leaue it to God and this companie to iudge of Charke Sure your satisfaction is verie weake farre from satisfying God that hateth such fond distinctioÌ„s to darken his word or those of the companie that seeke to be edified But you giue me new occasion to prosecute this matter What thinke you therefore of the storie of Iudith touching the dressing and decking of her selfe with apparell and ornaments fittest to deceiue Holofernes eies and what say you to her lies and praier that he might be taken with the snare of his eies looking vpon her the speaches vntrue and the action vnchaste in outward apparance were they thinke you of the holy Ghost Camp I maruell not that you so speake of me when you so speake of a blessed woman to bring so holy an action into doubt Surely you greatly offend me in so doing Charke I speake of the words and storie as it is plainly written she prayeth saying Capiatur laqueo oculorum suorum in me Percuties eum ex
versatu◅ fides circa quod In what and about what is fayth occupied Camp Subiectum fidei The subiect of faith is man to whom God hath giuen the gift of fayth and thereupon man is denominate faythfull Walker Doth man consist of one part or more Camp Man doth consist of bodie and soule Walker Whether doe I receyue fayth into my bodie or soule chiefly Camp Fayth is receyued into the soule by the instrument of the bodie Walker What part of the soule is it receyued by For the soule hath diuers potentias faculties Receyue we it per memoriam voluntatem or intellectum by the memorie will or vnderstanding Campion I answere the soule doth receiue it per intellectum by vnderstanding illumined by fayth because that part was properly corrupted by errour Walker Why then Intellectus humanus is subiectum fidei in quo versatur and so intellectu nos cognoscimus deum Mans vnderstanding is the subiect in which faith is and so by the vnderstanding we know God Camp Intellectu illuminati per fidem cognoscimus I grant we know God our vnderstanding being illumined by fayth Walker And what now is obiectum fidei The obiect of faith Camp Obiectum fidei is truth inspired from God Walker Whether it be inspired or no Truth is Obiectum still Aeterna veritas est deus ergo Deus est obiectum fidei promissio Euangelij Gods worde and his trueth is the obiect of fayth and so sayth Thomas of Aquine one of your owne doctours Camp It is no obiect to me till I looke to it God as he is to be knowen is the obiect of fayth and as hee is to bee loued of charitie Walker It is true but God is incomprehensible and wee knowe so farre of him as he hath reuealed of himselfe as in creating to be Almightie in gouerning to be wise in preseruing to be true and helping to be good and in his promises to be sure and true and so much he hath reuealed of himselfe And this to apprehend is sufficient to saluation Camp To apprehend these things effectually so that we also obey his commandements and not onely to grant them to be true but also to apply these things to our selues through the passion of Christ this is saluation and sufficient Walker Hact enus conuenit Hitherto we agree But Paul Rom. 4. writeth Non haesitans fide nititur promissione Not doubting in fayth and leaning vpon the promise So that there were two things the promise which must be beleeued that it is true and the power of God that he is able to performe Camp Concedo I grant it And that made the fayth of Abraham to be fruitfull and meritorious Walker What meritorious But that is Perergon I will come neerer to the matter You will graunt likewise that hope hath suum subiectum obiectum her subiect and obiect Camp Yea that I will that it is in the same soule of man but more properly in voluntate affectu then in Intellectu in the will and affection then in the vnderstanding Walker That is verie true Nowe tell me what is Obiectum spei The obiect of hope Camp The good of the life to come Walker But what was the obiect especially of Abrahams hope Camp The same that is common to all other men but seorsum the comming of Christ the Messias promised to him and his seede after him Walker What commoditie is promised to vs in Christ Campion Saluation which is to haue eternall life with Christ. Walker This promise being beleeued and knowen by faith is looked for by hope euery Christian mā hath a great desire to this saluation promised Either he hath or shoulde haue as Saint Paul Cupio dissolui esse cum Christo I desire to be loosed and to be with Christ. Camp When God hath enlightened his heart by charitie then he hath that desire stedfast Walker Well then I wil leaue the obiect of hope and come to the subiect of charitie What is the subiect of charitie Camp The affection of man Walker What is the obiect Camp It is God as he is beloued quatenus appetitur propter se. Walker Uery good then you see the foundation and causes with the whole order of our iustification what neede all the worlde haue any more but first to beleeue these things next to looke for that which we hope for thirdly to loue him who hath made vs this promise and hath giuen vs these great benefites Nowe see whether we are iustified by faith alone or faith hope and charitie But I leaue the persecuting of this to Master Charke Camp I graunt that this is the order of our iustification wherein these doe ioyntly con◅re and worke together Charke You may not auoyde the point and issue of the question as you did in the forenoone which is that Faith only iustifieth It is a chiefe question and you can not carry the matter so vprightly betwixt the olde popery and the newe but we shall easily finde you out you say faith onely doeth not iustifie but with faith hope and charitie also are requisite as causes and merits of our iustification This is your cunning and newe Poperie to mention onely hope and charitie yet vnder these wordes you carry the olde Poperie which addeth popish shrift penance pilgrimages and other satisfactions all which you would match with the death of Christ if you might recouer your kingdome But I haue to proue against you that Faith onely doeth iustifie without these merits and workes which you adde as though the righteousnesse of Christ were not inough Camp I denie it for you haue it not in all the word of God that faith onely doeth iustifie Charke Surely if you acknowledge any doctrine to be true in all the Scripture this of iustification by faith onely will be proued most trus if any plaine this will appeare most plaine And thus I proue it Euery doctrine the substance and sense whereof is conteined in Scriptures is true But the substance and sense of this doctrine Faith only doeth iustifie is conteined in Scriptures Therefore this doctrine Faith onely doeth iustifie is true Camp I answere that this proposition Faith onely doeth iustifie is not to be founde in all the worde of God and therefore I denie the Minor Charke I haue affirmed in my Minor that the substance and sense of this proposition Faith only doeth iustifie is conteined in the Scriptures For proofe hereof I haue in the worde of God eleuen places all negatiue excluding works in the matter of our saluation Namely Rom. chap. 9. verse 11. where the Apostle saith Not of workes Againe chap. 11. ver 6. Not of works Also Galat. 2. ver 16. Not of workes Moreouer Rom. 4. 6. Without workes Chap. 3. ver 21. Without the Lawe And so in the rest Camp Let me answere them Here the rest of the places were demaunded by them that wrote and by others Charke Turne further to these places
a false and grosse interpretation and thus I proue it If your distinction be good then there is either a third couenant or the couenant of the lawe is mixed with the couenant of the Gospell But no man will say that there is a third couenant and the Apostle proueth that in the work of our iustificatiō the couenant of the law doth no way participate with the couenāt of fayth therefore your distinction saying as it is a burden is not good and your interpretation absurd and false Camp I answer to the Minor that the law is considered two maner of wayes The couenant of the lawe as it is of the lawe is no way mixed with the couenant of the Gospell but as it is the couenant of the lawe eternall of the lawe morall of the lawe of nature it is mixed with the new testament Christ hath renued it in the lawe of charitie Moses gaue it one way and Christ another Moses the lawe maker and Christ the law giuer Praeceptum nouum do vobis vt diligatis inuicem I giue you a newe commandement that ye loue one another Charke What absurde speaches are these to make a substantiall distinction of the lawe in regard of the minister or of the time The morall lawe and commandement of God is euermore the same in substance Camp I vnderstand not what you meane I say it is mixed but as it is mixed it is not called Moses law but y◠law of Christ who gaue it more perfectly c Charke Againe I say this is absurde for the lawe of God was alway the lawe of God and therefore the same and exacteth the same obedience which because no man can performe no man can liue thereby Camp You are still gathering absurdities Charke I must gather them where you scatter them For what materiall difference can there be made of one and the same thing The second couenant offereth life onely by faith in Christ the former onely by workes and these cannot be confounded as you confound and huddle them together Thus your answeres are from the arguments Camp My answeres are to the purpose What is it that you would haue more of me Charke Is your answere to the purpose that mixeth confoundeth the two couenants which are so opposite by the Apostles place alledged that he which cleaueth to the one can receiue nothing by the other For the couenant of the lawe can beare no transgression and to iustifie vs the couenant of fayth needeth no satisfaction or workes on our part Christ hauing most fully wrought and satisfied for vs. Therefore it is the pride of man to thinke and the errour of man to teach that the righteousnesse of Christ is not sufficient without addition of our righteousnesse Camp Well shewe me but that negatiue sola onely in all the Scriptures Charke This is a new matter I woulde haue the olde first satisfied Camp Shew it me can you not shew it Charke Seeing you would shift off the former argument by crauing a newe I am contented to proue that exclusiue tearme which you call negatiue Whatsoeuer excludeth all other causes in iustification that remayneth a sole cause Fayth excludeth all other causes in iustification Faith therefore remaineth a sole and onely cause Camp Proue your Minor Charke The absolute negatiues so often repeated in the Scripture Not of workes Without workes Not of the law Without the law do plainly exclude all other causes Camp Will you by this argument exclude al causes besides fayth Then with good workes you will also exclude the mercy of God What is your meaning Charke What a vanitie is there in this question Understande you not that I speake onely of causes in vs excluding no former causes as the eternall decree and loue of God the obedience and righteousnesse of Christ Camp Proue that Sola fides onely fayth is in the scripture Charke I haue proued it and why doe you not answere the argument Camp What argument would ye haue me answere Charke The last All other causes in vs are excluded by the worde of God where it is sayde so often Not of workes Not of the lawe therefore sola fides fayth onely remaineth by many testimonies of the Scriptures Campion This fides is Christian obedience and hath good workes Charke I graunt as the good tree hath good fruite necessarily so fayth hath good workes but these good workes though they be not separated from fayth are yet separated from being any cause of iustification with fayth As light though it bee not separated from fire yet it is separated from the force of burning for the heate burneth and not the light of fire Campion But where proue you that sola onely is in the Scripture Charke My argument hath fully and plainly proued it you neither will nor can answere it Therefore to proue it againe because the text Deut. 6. hath the negatiue Thou shalt serue no strange gods Christ Mat. 4. addeth the worde ONELY Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God and him ONELY shalt thou serue So we by the same warrant and worde do in this question of iustification take these words Not by works Not by the law to import as much as faith onely for al works whatsoeuer being excluded by these negatiue speaches faith alone remaineth Camp Why doth he say Thou shalt worship by fayth onely Char. I had hedged you in before that you should not leape ouer to run at large in your bie questions I sayd Christ Mat. 4. thus alledged against the tempter Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God and him only shalt thou serue This negatiue ONLY is not in Moses yet added by Christ for interpretations sake to expound words importing it as I haue said before so do we in the matter of iustification finding all righteousnes by workes or by the lawe so oftentimes excluded doe conclud thereupon that fayth onely doth iustifie Camp The word adorabis doth of necessitie infer so much and therefore Christ doth well to expound it by onely But the worde iustifie doth not necessarily inferre the excluding of workes And therefore you do not well to inferre Faith only iustifieth Charke What do you not blush to bring this strange false distinction against a cleare truth of God Or wil you ouerthrow a maine pillar of Poperie for auoiding the force of one poore argument Doth the word adorabis exclude all other creatures and necessarily inforce that God alone must be worshipped Thē Cāpion condemneth al images all adoration of the crucifix all inuocation worshipping of saints For to adore or to worship sayth he importeth that adoration worship is due to God only so he excludeth all creatures frō worship euen the crucifix that they say must haue the adoration done to it which is due to Christ himself Camp What needeth all this it foloweth not which you say There is much differēce betwene to adore to reuerēce or serue For latria or to adore