Selected quad for the lemma: scripture_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
scripture_n	answer_v	church_n	word_n	3,982	5	4.2706	3	true

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A20940	A conference held at Paris betweene Father Gontier a Iesuite, and Doctor Du Moulin seconded by the Lady of Salignac. Together with Doctor Du Moulin his answere to Gontier his letter to the King concerning the subiect of this conference. By Peter Du Moulin Doctor of Diuinitie, and minister of the Word of God in the church of Paris. Translated according to the French copie printed in Paris.; Veritable narré de la conference entre les Sieurs Du Moulin et Gontier. English	Du Moulin, Pierre, 1568-1658.; Gontery, Jean, 1562-1616. aut	1615 (1615)	STC 7319; ESTC S111071	14,986	30

companie Gontier exeused himselfe and said he did it vnwittingly afterward he began to write these words this offring cannot be made vnto the people Afterward he paused vpon it and blotted out that which he had written then passing that ouer he posts to the second article of Du Moulins answere who required him to answere to the first article Gontier answered that he would not answere to it at all and that in his answering he would haue to do with those parts which hee thought most feeblest Du Moulin prest him againe saying that his conclusion was weake whilest that one of his propositions remained still denied Gontier refused againe Some that sate there comming vnto him whilst he did thus delay vrged him vnto it yet he persisted in his refusall but vppon the second article he said that Du Monlin denied his owne Bible which saith is shed and not shall be shedde Du Moul. Answered that our translation was turned faithfully according to the Greeke and that this did proue nothing but that the exposition of the Romish Church which the bibles approued by the counsell of Trent and the Masse it selfe doth carry is false Gont. Gontier then made one of Robert Stephens Greeke Testaments be brought vnto him and for to weaken the authoritie of the Greeke text said that many things there had beene changed and that at the end of the booke there was a table of more then fiue hundred seuerall readings Du Moul. Answered that these diuers readings did not alter the sense at all that all this inueighing against the originall of the new-testament did not help him a iot to proue that which as yet he could not proue to wit that Iesus Christ offered vp his bloud to God in the Eucharist and he called vpon Gontier to proue it Gontier continuing in denying to proue it to him and the disputation being there at a stay all the Ladies to gratifie him entreated them to talke of some other subiect and said that this matter was to deepe for their capacities A new matter proposed ONe of the Ladies therefore requested that these words might be expounded This is my body Du Moulin Answered and said That no man doubted of the truth of these words and that wee should beleeue the Scripture according to the exposition that it carries of it selfe that these words This is my body were thus expounded by the Apostle Saint Paul 1. Cor. 10. chap. 16. vers The bread which wee breake is the communion of the body of Christ An exposition which the Church of Rome doth reiect not beleeuing at all that it is bread nor that we breake bread nor that this bread so broken is the communion of the body of Christ seeing that it is his very body Hereunto adde that the Euangelists do with a ioint consent witnesse that Iesus Christ broke bread and gaue it He tooke bread broke it and gaue it Therewith the Church of Rome denies not beleeuing that hee gaue bread Nay which is more it denies these words This is my body For seeing the word This signifies that which he gaue and seeing that he gaue bread the sense of these words This is my body is This bread is my body the which the Church of Rome denies Gontier on the contrarie opposed against this that Saint Paul had said in the Eucharist that the body of our Lord is broken for vs that the bread whereof hee speakes saying The bread which we breake is his flesh as it is said in the sixt of Saint Iohn The bread which I will giue is my flesh Du Moul. Replied and said that herein Gontier contradicted the Church of Rome which doth not beleeue at all that the Lords body is broken in the Eucharist and asked of Gontier whether he would subscribe to this That the Church of Rome doth beleeue that the body of the Lord is broken in the Eucharist that Gontier by this word Bread meaning the body of Christ makes the words of Saint Paul ridiculous making him to say that the body of Christ which wee breake is the communion of the body of Christ That in that place of Saint Iohn he speakes not at all of the Eucharist but promiseth to yeeld himselfe vnto death as he makes manifest by the words following The bread which I will giue is my flesh which I will giue for the life of the world now he did not giue himselfe for the life of the world but in his death Gont. Hereunto Gontier answered nothing but only this that these words I will giue being twise repeated were taken in two seuerall significations Afterward being required to subscribe that the Church of Rome doth beleeue that the body of Christ is broken in the Sacrament He tooke paper and writ Christ hath broken his body in the Eucharist Saint Paul 1. Cor. 11. vers 14. which was not that which was demanded of him Hereupon being required to speake his minde freely and tell in his conscience whether he thought the Apostle Saint Paul did speake truth saying that we breake bread He answered flatly that he would answere no more then he had done alreadie which moued one of the Gentlemen that sate by Master Paupart by name who came in at the latter end of the conference to say vnto him wee haue brought our eares but it seemes you want a mouth This done Gontier being prest a new to proue that Iesus Christ hath offered his bloud to God in the Eucharist forsooke the battaile and being ashamed of himselfe and cleane out of heart retired into one of the corners of the chamber where being all alone he falls a writing what he thought best in a paper apart which when he had shewed vpon the table a little after hee toare in peeces snatching it out of the handes of my Lady of Liembrune who was willing to haue kept it He therefore giuing roome my Lady Baronesse of Salignac succeeded in his place The vpshot of the conference MY Ladies discourse tended to this end I haue said she withdrawne my selfe from the religion wherein I was bred after I came once to the through discussing of the cause I haue spent foure whole yeares in sounding of this I haue looked vpon all the Fathers Latine and Greeke I kept a man of purpose to translate them I haue found that the Fathers of the foure first ages are conformable in all things to the faith of the Church of Rome hereupon I was confirmed in mine opinion and my conuersation hath turned diuerse others Du Moul. Said Madame since you vnderstand that which you do so well giue me leaue to aske you if you do not call vpon the Virgine Mary and if the forme of your praier wherein you call vpon her be not Aue Maria c. yes said she Then Du Moulin said vnto her you do not therefore vnderstand what you do for by speaking thus you thinke you pray to the Virgine Mary but indeed you pray vnto God for her saying vnto

A CONFERENCE HELD AT PARIS betweene Father Gontier a Iesuite and DOCTOR Du Moulin SECONDED BY THE LADY OF SALIGNAC Together with Doctor Du Moulin his answere to GONTIER his letter to the KING concerning the subiect of this CONFERENCE By Peter Du Moulin Doctor of Diuinitie and Minister of the Word of GOD in the Church of PARIS Translated according to the French Copie printed in PARIS LONDON Printed for IOHN BARNES and are to be sold at the signe of the Pyde-Bull neere Saint Austines gate 1615. TO THE VERY GODLY AND RIGHT NOBLE Lady my Lady ELIZABETH WINVVOOD Wife to the Right honourable Sir RALPH WINVVOOD Knight one of his Maiesties Priuy Counsell and Principall Secretary to the State MAdam it may bee thought a double recompence in you amongst many workes and many writers if you would onely spare employments to peruse and giue in charity a milde opinion of this But I intending to your selfe a recompence for late and earely loues vouchsafed by your honourable Husband dare honestly prefixe your name to this and thinke it woorth your patronage When as indeede omnipotence it selfe cannot be well entituled to any thing but truth then certainely it should be triumph to defend a truth conuincing And such a truth is now commended to your fauor which if it may acquit my zeale vnto your Knight and You of thanks though not of satisfaction For hauing thought your selfe most worthy to defend this truth opposed by one of your own sexe almost of the same rank I shall according to my wish esteeme it sutable to your person whom with your honourable Husband I doe now leaue to Heauens disposall which may enable me to discharge a further duty Your Ladyships most deepely bound IOHN BARNES A TRVE NARRATION of the conference betweene Du Moulin and Gontier seconded by my Lady BARONESSE of Salignac PETER Du Moulin hapning about three of the clocke in the after-noone to meete with Monsieur de Liembrune before his gate in Marsh streete was requested by him to steppe vp along with him vnto his chamber where hee was no sooner come but he saw the roome full of Ladies among which one of them at the first on set entreated him to explaine the 31. article in the confession of the faith of the reformed Churches Du Moulin answered that if it pleased her to take the paines to come home to his house he would do the best he could to satisfie her Presently vpon that another Lady replied and said that we ought at all times be readie to giue an account of our faith that Du Moulin ought not deny to instruct them herein which did demand it of him whereunto Du Moulin answered that hee knew well enough they did not aske this for any desire they had to be instructed and to dispute about religion with women which tattle altogether and after they are gone publish what they please were to wrong the truth of religion One among them replied that she could not satisfie her selfe as concerning this Article and that it was often obiected to her how that our Ministers were not able to giue an account of their Mission and Vocation Du Moulin answered that he wondred much how she forgat to aske a reason of them for the iustifying of theirs and that had she so done she should haue found them lesse able to satisfie her that euery one which presumes to aske a reason of another for the maintaining of his vocation ought to be sure that he is able to iustifie his owne and be readie at any time to yeeld a reason He had no sooner spoken these wordes but in comes Gontier with two others which brought many bookes along with them Gontier at his first entrance asked what was the matter what it was that was said there Why my Lady heere said Du Moulin requires a reason of me to iustifie my Mission and I told her that she should haue demanded the like of you for the iustifying of yours Gontier This is onely a shift to rid your necke out of the coller Du Moulin It is no shift at all for whosoeuer is so bold as to demaund a reason of another for his vocation bindes himselfe thereby to giue an account of his owne But if you will confesse that you are not able to defende yours I will presently heere take vpon mee to defende mine Gont. Pray sir be not cholericke you doe not heare me acknowledge any such matter Du Moul. I speake nothing but what is apparantly true and do here vndertake to proue that you haue no vocation Gont. Who hath giuen you authoritie to speake so saucily to your superiours Du Moul. As for your dignitie I denie that you haue any such superioritie ouer me But to the point I heere maintaine that you haue no commission for you call your selues Priests and haue receiued this order of priesthood in this manner which is that the Bishop hauing anointed your fingers and imposed his hands saith vnto you Receiue power to offer vp sacrifice to God and to celebrate the Masse as well for the liuing as the dead By this meanes he hath made you Sacrificers to sacrifice Iesus Christ I demaund of you therefore in what place of Scripture Bishops are authorized to establish such sacrificing Priests in the Church Gont. That is easily prooued out of the second and fifth Chapters of the first Epistle to Timothie bring mee a new Testament hither hereupon a Testament was brought him wherein he read these two Chapters which was not a little tedious to the standers by and finding nothing there that he desired said to one of his company which was his assistant go and fetch me my Concordaunce which being brought he stood turning the leaues along time without saying a word Du Moulin being weary of staying for his answere said vnto him if this disgrace had lighted vpon me to haue beene put to silence and to send for my Concordaunce I should be ashamed euer to shew my face more in any honest company wherupon Monsieur de Liembrune tould Gontier Sir I am ashamed to see that which I do for you haue often told me that the Ministers durst not speak a word before you and now I see you driuen to such straites that you haue not a word to say After halfe an houres silence I sought said Gontier a place of Scripture wherein there is mention made of imposition of handes I will ease you said Du Moulin of the paines and presently turned to the place which is in the 4. Chapter of the first Epistle to Timothy Gontier red the words which were these Despise not the gift that is in thee which was giuen thee by prophesie with the laying on of the hands of the company of the elders Note withall that these elders were Priests and that Greeke word imports as much Du Moul. This doth not proue at all that Bishops haue authoritie from God to establish sacrificers in the Church Gontier in steede of answering

her Mary the Lord protect thee the Lord bee with thee c. Also Madam I thinke you haue not forgot the causes which moued you to this change For example can you shew vs any places of the Scripture wherein wee are commaunded to paint God and to make carued images of the trinitie in stone The Lady answered that she would not take vpon her to prooue that in the presence of a Doctour Du Moulin then shewed her the 4. Chapter of Deuteron at the 15. vers and following where God forbids any image to bee made like vnto him She on the contrary alleaged the images of the Cherubins But Du Moulin told her that she spake of the images of God and that a Cherubin was no God As for the images of Creatures he asked her if since her change of religion she had seene any commaundement of God for the worshipping of creatures images Gontier did releeue her a farre of crying out of his corner where he was retired Madame instance in the brasen Serpent being the image of Christ who was both God and man tell him withall that there was sacrifice and incense offered before the Cherubins Du Moul. Answered that the brasen Serpent was no image of Iesus Christ but a figure of his office and sauing vertue that suppose it were his image yet it was not an image of his diuinitie that he could neuer find that the Israelites did worship it but that they were taxed for idolatrie and lastly that there was neuer any sacrifice or incense offered vp before the Cherubins there being alwaies a vaile interposed Shee heereupon had recourse againe to the Fathers affirming that shee had read them all Du Moulin tolde her that it was impossible first in respect of the multitude of bookes and then because of the difficultie therof to her which vnderstood neither Greeke nor Latine That twenty yeares were too little for him to doe it and that shee must needes aske twice as long Hee entreated her to name some Father among others which shee had read shee named Chrysostome for an example Du Moulin said praie Madam shew me but one place in him which you doe best vnderstand then she strained courtesie saying that being as she was a mother of a family she could not be wholly at leisure Afterwards she brought foorth a whole bedroll of the Fathers wherein shee tooke the Greeke for the Latine saying that Tertullian was the disciple of the Apostles that Cyprian was his disciple in the 150. yeare of our Lord for which shee was taken vp by Gontier which heard it a farre off Who raising himselfe vp gently tooke his leaue of the company Du Moulin told him as he was going foorth that if we were castawayes and damned creatures as they reported they should then by the lawes of Ch●istian charity haue compassion vpon vs and I am amazed that you which heere shew your selfe to bee of so yeelding a nature should yet neuerthelesse preach bloud and sedition as all those tell me which goe to heare you Gontier answered you are misinformed I haue giuen an accoun● to the King for that which I did I would hazard my life for your good After some complement the company departed Two dayes after my Lord of Liembrune meeting with the same Ladies in Saint Nicholas des Chamans hee enquired of them what the reason was that father Gontier was so astonished and did stay at a st●nd in his answering who sayd that as he himselfe told them he did this to cheere vp my Lady of Liembrune who wept for feare he should else haue afflicted her a new PETER DV MOVLINS ANSWER TO THE Letters of M. Gontier written to the King concerning the Subiect of this Conference SInce the religion of Rome is become a marchandize they which teach it study how to put trickes vpon men but they doe them so slouenly and performe them with so little slight that as it seems they are willing to do vs a pleasure in disgracing themselues The letters of Monsieur Gontier vpon this subiect shew this which I say to be true wherin he bragges of the conuersion of my Lady of Mazancourt as the prize of his victorie though she in the yeare 1596. in the moneth of Iune in the Church of Sechelles publikely forswore our religion on her marriage day and protested that she would liue in the Church of Rome and neuer since hath she turned to vs or made any shew of professing our religion See then what a new conquest here is he hath spoiled vs of that which wee neuer had hee hath killed a person already dead hee hath made a Lady forsweare our religion which had done it a douzen yeres before and gained so excellent a victory to the end the people should say This was done by the dexterity of venerable Father Gontier Not vnlike him who hauing bought an hare tied it with a chaine vnto his saddle bow that so the people might say this is the hare which hee hath taken which opinion makes the dish to rellish the better These Doctors could neuer yet catch any but such like preyes as these Shee surely is a Lady of honor whose person family I reuerence yet she neuerthelesse either to gratifie her husband or els through simplicity had willingly forsaken the truth before our conference In which she was so farre from profiting any thing that whilst it was a doing she often professed that she did not listen to that which was said nay more then this since that hath she written letters to my Lady of Liembrune her sister where she speaks thus I was not in any manner in the world instructed because the points which Du Moulin proposed to bee discussed were aboue the reach of my vnderstanding A little after she saith that when the conference was done shee went to consult with Father Gontier who shewed her all the Fathers of the first 600. yeares to bee on his side where as shee reports shee hath found true saluation that heereupon she hath fixt her resolution But if Master Gontier behaued himselfe so manfully as hee sayes without shewing how how comes it then to passe that the Ladies there present were faine to excuse him to Monsieur de Liembrune for bearing himselfe so dastardly in the fight saying that he did this to comfort my Lady of Liembrune which wept why was I constrained to turne for him to a passage of Scripture which hee could not finde why did he stand so many times so long together without speaking a word why he being at a non-plus and not able to iustifie the authority of Bishops for the ordaining of sacrificing Priests was I forced to change my question for to gratifie him why did hee withdraw himselfe out of my presence to hide himselfe in a corner why did hee blot out that which I had written why did he teare the papers which himselfe had written whereof I can yet for aneede produce some peeces And note that he tooke mee