that hath bene of him and the triall that hath bene of you his experience and yours But what shoulde I compare together things so vnlike That M. Bucer is directly against you in this assertion of yours it dothe not appeare onely in these words of his but in others also which he speaketh to the like effect as in the. 4. to the Eph. as I haue before declared And again vpon the same chapter Bucer n. 4. Ephe. he saith The third part of discipline is obedience which is first to be rendred of al to the Bishop and Minister then of euery clearke to those that be in degree aboue him to suche as may helpe him to the well executing of his ministerie Last of all of Bishops to synodes and to their Metropolitane Byshops and to all other to whom a more ample charge of the churches is committed And in the same commentaries after that he hath proued by sundry examples apt reasons y t this superioritie among Ecclesiasticall persons is conuenient and profitable and shewed that these degrées in the Church Bishop Archbyshop Metropolitane Primate Patria ke be not onely most auncient but also necessarie he concludeth on this sort Bicause it is necessarie that euery one of the cleargie should Idem haue their rulers and gouernours the authoritie power vigilancie and seueritie of Bishops Archdeacons and all other by what name soeuer they be called to whome any portion of keping and gouernin the cleargie is committed should or ought to be restored least there be any in thys order out of rule and without gouernment Howe thinke you nowe of M. Bucers iudgement Is it not directly against you be not his wordes plaine Chap. 6. the. 7. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 124. Sect. 1. Your places quoted in the margent to proue that there ought to Scriptures wreasted to proue equalitie of Ministers be an equalitie of Ministers sounde nothing that waye 2. Cor. 10. vers 7. these be the wordes of the Apostle Looke ye on things after the appearance If any truste in him felfe that he is Christes let him consider this againe of himselfe that as he is Christes euen so are vve Christes Howe conclude you of these wordes your equalitie I promyse you it passeth my cunning to wring out of them any suche sense rather the contrary may be gathered oute of the wordes following whiche be these For though I shoulde boast somevvhat more of our authoritie vvhich the Lord. c. I should haue no shame M. Caluine expounding Caluine these wordes sayth on this sort It vvas for modestie that he ioyned him selfe to their number vvhome he did farre excell and yet he vvould not be so modest but that he vvould kepe his authoritie safe therefore he addeth that he spake lesse than of right he might haue done For he vvas not of the common sorte of ministers but one of the chiefe among the Apostles ▪ and Degrees of honour in the ministerie therefore he saith if I boaste more I nede not be ashamed for I haue good cause And a litle after Quamuis enim commune sit omnibus verbi ministris idemque officium sunt tamen bonoris gradus Although the selfsame office be common to all the Ministers of the vvorde yet there is degrees of honour Thus you see Caluine farre otherwise to gather of this place than you doe T. C. Pag. 100. Sect. 1. And if M. Doctor delight thus to oppose mens authoritie to the authoritie of the holie ghoste to the reasons which are grounded out of the scripture M. Caluine doth openly mislike of the making of that name proper and peculiar to certaine which the holy ghost maketh common to mo And where as of M. Caluines wordes which sayth that there be degrees of honoure in the ministerie Here he defendeth not the admonition but shifteth it or by auilling M. Doctour would gather an Archbishop if he had vnderstanded that an Apostle is aboue an Euange ste an Euangeliste aboue a Pastor a Pastor aboue a Doctor and he aboue an Elder that ruleth onely he neded neuer haue gone to the popishe Hierarchie to seke his diuersiti s of degrees ▪ which he might haue founde in S. Paule And whereas vpon M. Caluines wordes which sayth that Paule was one of the chiefe amongest the Apostles he would seeme to conclude an Archbishop amongst the bishops he should haue remembred that S. Paules chiefetie amōgst the Apostles consisted not in hauing any authoriti or dominion ouer the rest but in labouring and suffering more than the rest and in giftes more excellent than the rest Io. Whitgifte I do not oppose mens authoritie to y e authoritie of y e holy ghost to the reasons which ar grounded out of the scripture but I oppose them to your authoritie and to your reasons who spurne against that order whiche the holie ghoste hath placed in the Churche most shamefully abuse the scripture to mainteine your errours an example wherof is this present text alledged by the Admonition which you passe ouer in silence condemning therby their leudenesse in abusing the same It is you and yours that abuse the name and authoritie of the holie ghoste it is you that wring and wreste the Scriptures vntollerably it is you that falsifie authorities of learned men corruptly alledge them It is you I say that depraue and discredit such writers as haue bene and be notable instrumentes in the churche of Christe and all this you do to maintaine your erroneous opinions and false doctrine wherewith you endeuour to subuerte this churche of Englande M. Caluines wordes be playne and they directly ouerthrowe your equalitie of ministers and shewe the fondnes of the Admonition in alledging that place of scripture to proue any such equalitie M. Caluines wordes be these Qu muis commune sit omnibu verbi ministris idemque officium sunt tamen bonoris gradus Although the selfe same office be common to all the ministers of the worde yet there are degrees of honor Which wordes disproue the equalitie of ministers by the admonition affirmed confirmed with this portion of scripture by M. Caluine here interpreted that is 2. Cor. 10. verse 7. If there were degrees of honour in the Apostles tyme among those which had idem 〈◊〉 the selfe same office as M. Caluine affirmeth why should there not be so now T. C. contra ie to himselfe likewise But will you sée howe vnlike you are vnto your selfe euen in these fewe lynes first you saye that M. Caluines meaning is that an Apostle is aboue an Euangeliste an Euangelist is aboue a Pastor c. and by and by after you confesse that there was chieftie euen among the Apostles but it consisted in labouring and suffering more than the rest and in giftes more excellent than the rest To omitte these contrarieties of yours into the whiche the plainenesse of Master Caluin s wordes hath driuen you this inequalitie that you
(*) Herein you haue aptly described your own nature It is a token of at nature disposed to no great quietnesse whiche rather than he would not striue striueth with himselfe Io. Whitgifte Whither I accuse them iustly or no I shall referre it to the Reader to iudge after I haue set downe their very wordes which indéede no Christian cares can paciently heare pag. 157. they say thus Reading is not feeding but it is as euill as playing vpon a stage and worse to Which wordes if they be well marked and ioyned with the reason that followeth for players yet learne their partes without booke c. must néedes signifie a mer contempt of reading the scriptures and a mynde that thinketh lesie edifying to come by reading than by playing vpō a stage which is an vntolerable blasphemy Pages 164. and. 165. their talke of reading the scriptures tendeth wholy to this purpose to make the same altogether vnprofitable and surely no man can excuse them of this crime but he that is bent without respect to assent vnto them in all thinges though they be moste manifestly false and moste absurde But I would haue the Reader marke this one thing that speaking of a reading minister you saye It I may so call hym whereby you giue playne signification that you may not call nor esteeme them to be ministers which cannot preache Whiche if it be true then haue they not in your doctrine delyuered any of the sacramentes The marke that the Replier shoteth at so consequently so many not baptized as haue bene baptizedby thē to the proofe wherof your doctrine tendeth wholly The like he hath after warde pag. 128. Sect. 1. Chap. 1. the. 2. Diuision T. C. Pag. 126. Lin. 4. And although the cause beiust and good which he defendeth yet I wyll note in a worde or two howe as though there were pitche or some worse thing in his handes he defileth whatsoeuer he toucheth Io. Whitgifte A token of a modest and quiet nature to impeache a knowne truthe for the persones sake that doth defend it Nunquid sic factitabat Paulus Did Paule so or did Peter dally in that manner Paule was content to allowe the truthe preached euen by false Prophetes But what should I compare the mylde modest and louing spirite of the Apostles with the contentious and scoffing spirite of T. C Chap. 1. the. 3. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 90. Sect. 4. But I would gladly learne why you do so greatly mislike of reading Zvvingfildians mislike reading of scriptures the scriptures I hope you be not Zvvingfildians is not the word of God as effectuall when it is read as when it is preached or is Reading is preaching not reading preaching T. C. Pag. 126. Lin. 6. First therfore he asketh and so that he doth most boldly and confidently affirme it whither the worde of God is not as effectuall when it is read as when it is preached or whether reading bee not preaching In which two questions although the one of them confuteth the other for so much as if reading be preaching as he sayth then the comparison of the profit and efficacie betweene one and the other is absurde yet I wyll answere to both I say therefore that the worde of God is not so effectuall read as preached For S. Paule sayth that faith commeth by hearing and hearing of the worde preached so that the ordinary and especiall meanes to worke faythe by is preaching Rom. 10. and not reading Io. Whitgifte I haue affirmed nothing so boldely which I haue not as strongly by good authorities and reasons cōfirmed to the which you haue not answered but in this manner of brawling If you did vnderstande that there are diuers kindes of preachings as M. Bucer declareth vpon the. 4. to the Ephes. and that reading of the scriptures is one of them which also the same Bucer there affirmeth then would you haue absteyned from giuing this sentence That if reading be preachyng than is the comparison of the profitte and efficacy betweene one and the other absurde for one kynde of preaching may be compared to an other without any absurditie I say that S. Paule in that chapter to the Romains by preaching doth generally Preaching for publishing the Gospell by voyce generally vnderstand all kindes of publishing the Gospel by the external voyce which comprehendeth reading as well as it doth that which you call preaching and it is greatlye against the dignitie and maiestie of the scriptures it also greatly confirmeth the error of the Papistes touching the obscuritie of the scriptures and debarring the people from reading them to saye that fayth commeth not by reading for that is to make them dumbe and vnprofitable M. Bucer vpon the. 4. to the Ephes. setteth foorth the cōmoditie of reading the scriptures The commoditie of reading the scriptures in the churche Bucer in this manner Reading of the holy scriptures was appointed to this end that both the phrase and manner of speaking of the scripture and the scripture it self might be more knowen and more familiar to the people when as they which did interprete the scriptures could not finish one little part thereof in one whole yeare In the meane time by the onely reading of the scriptures the people were maruelously confirmed in the knowledge of all the pointes and doctrine of saluation For they be in euery booke oftentimes repeated and expounded with diuers wordes that the people of that which followed might vnderstande many things which in that that went before they could not sometime perceiue and by that meanes the iudgement of the people was confirmed in all pointes of religion so that they were able to iudge of the interpretation of the scriptures and of all doctrine whiche was taught them by their owne Curates and teachers or by any other And therfore in auncient Churches this bare reading of the scriptures was greatly esteemed Of reading of scriptures God be thanked it is very well appointed in the Churche of Englande c. Thus farre M. Bucer Surely I maruell what is ment by this your straunge kinde of doctrine except you would haue the people through ignorance of the scriptures brought againe to this point that they must only depende vpon the mouth of the Pastor Chap. 1. the. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 126. Lin. 14. And although reading do helpe to nourish the fayth which commeth by preaching yet this is gyuen to the preaching 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is by excellency and for that it is the excellentest and most ordinary meanes to worke by in the heartes of the hearers The beholding of the creatures and the consideration of the makyng of the worlde and of Gods wisdome and wonderfull loue appearing in them doth nourish and strengthen fayth and yet may it not therefore in efficacie be compated to the preaching of the worde of God Io. Whitgifte Reading of the scriptures doth not only nouryshe fayth but ingendreth faith also Reading
vntill I heare some proofe or authoritie to the contrarie Howbeit the waight of the cause lieth not vpon this text this is but one reason among diuerse Chap. 2. the. 6. Diuision T. C. Pag. 127. Sect. vlt. But M. Doctor heareth with his left eare and readeth with his lefte eye as though his right eye were pulled out or his right are cut of For otherwise the other wordes which they haue touching this matter might easily haue bene expounded by the argument and matter whiche they handle Io. Whitgifte How doth it then happen that you haue not salued the matter by setting downe theyr wordes and declaring how I haue mistaken them seyng you haue omitted that men may well thinke that this is not vttered of you in good earnest Now that you haue sayde all in this matter you must giue me leaue to let the Reader vnderstande what you haue lefte vntouched in my booke concerning the same whither it be bycause you consent vnto it or that you cannot answere it I referre to his discretion ¶ The profite of Reading Scriptures in the Churche Chap. 3. the. 1. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 90. Sect. 5. 6. Pag. 91. Sect. 2. 3. Isidorus sayth that reading bringeth great profit to the hearers Isidorus Tertul. in Apologet Tertullian sayth when we come togither to the reading of the holy Scriptures we feede our fayth with those heauenly voyces we rayse vp our affiance we fasten our hope And agayne he calleth the reading of the Scriptures the feeding of our fayth But what neede I speake any more of a matter so manifest you atly ioyne Hardinges opinion of reading scripture with the Papiste in this for in the confutation of the Apologie of the Church of England M. Harding calleth reading of the Scriptures to the people in the Churche a spirituall dumbnesse and a thing Parte 5. and in the. 15. Arti. of the Replie vnprofitable c. That to reade the Scriptures in the Churche is no new thing but most auncient and grounded vpon Gods worde it is manifest by that which is written in the. 4. of Luke where the Euangelist sayeth that Christe on the Sabboth daye going into the Synagogue Luc. 4. according to his accustomed manner rose vp to read and there vvas deliuered vnto him the booke of the Prophete Esay and as soone as he opened the booke he founde the place vvhere it vvas vvritten Spiritus Domini super me c. The spirite of the Lorde vpon me c. Likewise in the thirtenth of the Actes we reade that Paule and other of his company beyng in the Synagogue on the Sabboth day was sent vnto by the rulers of the Sinagogue Post lectionem legis Prophetarum After the reading Ad. 13. of the lavve and the Prophetes To knowe if they would make any exhortation to the people Iustinus Martyr Apolog. 2. pro Christianis sayth that in his time the manner Iustinus Mar yr was on the Sabboth day vvhen the people vvere gathered togither to haue the scriptur s read in the publike congregation and in the time of publike prayer for the space of one vvhole hovver Origen writing vpon Iosua Homil. 15. sayeth that the bookes of the Orig n. olde Testament vvere deliuered by the Apostles to be read in the Churches Cyprian lib. 2. Epist. 5. sayeth The Reader soundeth out the high and Cyprian heauenly vvordes he readeth out the Gospell of Christe c. Chrysostome vpon the Actes Homil. 19. The minister and common minister standeth vp and crieth vvith a lovvde voyce saying Keepe silence Chrysostome Augustine after that the Reader beginneth the prophesie of Esay Augustine speaking to the people sayeth Yee heard vvhen the Gospell vvas read Ye heard erevvhyle vvhen it vvas read if ye gaue eare to the reading dearely beloued vve haue heard in the lesson that hath bene read Admonition And that this is not the feeding that Christe spake of the Scriptures are playne d For reading ministers vievv these places Mala. 2. 7. Esay 56. 10 Zach. 11. 15 at 15. 14. Tim. 3. 3 Reading is not feeding but it is as euill as playing vpon a stage and worse too for players yet learne theyr partes without booke and these a mayny of them can scarcely read within booke These are emptie feeders e Math. 6. 22 darke eyes f Math. 9. 38 〈◊〉 3. ill workemen to hasten in the Lordes haruest g Luc. 14. 17 messangers that can not cal h Mat. 23. 34 Prophers that can not declare the will of the Lord i Math. 5. 13 vnsauerie salt k Mat. 15. 14 blind guides l Isay. 36. 10 sleepie watchmen m Cor. 4. 1. Luc 16. 1. vntrustie dispensers of Gods secretes n 2. Tim. 2. 15 euill deuiders of the worde o 〈◊〉 1. 9. weake to withstande the aduersarie p 2. T 3. 15. 16. not able to confute And to conclude so farre from making the man of God perfect to all good workes that rather the quite contrarie may be confirmed Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 161. Sect. 2. 3. For reading ministers you bid vs viewe these places Mala. 2. vers 7. Esay 56. 10. Zachar. 11. 15. Matth. 15. 14. 1. Timoth. 3. 3. The Prophete Malachie in the seconde chapter and seuenth verse sayeth on this sorte For the Priestes lippes shoulde preserue knovvledge and they shoulde seeke the lavve at his mouthe For he is the messenger of the Lord of hostes In whiche wordes the Prophete doth signifie that the Priestes ought to be learned in the lawe and able to instruct which no man denieth and if there be any crepte into the ministerie whiche a not able so to do it is to be ascribed eyther to the negligence of t Bishop and such as haue to do therein or to the necessitie of the Reading is profitable t me But here is nothing spoken agaynst reading for any thing that I can gather and if any man shoulde come vnto me and demaunde of me any question touching the lawe of God I thinke I shoulde better satisfie him if I did reade the wordes of the lawe vnto him than if I should make a long tedious discourse of myne owne to litle or no purpose It is the worde it selfe that pearceth and mou th the conscience I speake not this agaynst interpreting of the Scriptures or preaching Pag. 162. Sect. 1. 2. for I know they be both necessary but agaynst such as be enimies to the reading of them The places in the. 56. of Esay and in the eleuenth of zacharie tende to the same purpose they all speake agaynst ignorant foolish slouthfull gouernours and pastours there is nothing in them that condemneth or disaloweth readyng of the Scriptures or reading of Prayers No more is there in the fiftenth of Matthew nor 1. Timo 3. reade the places and you shal soone see with how litle iudgement they be quoted agaynst such ministers
as vse to reade the scriptures and prayers to the people If you had sayde agaynst dumbe vnlearned ministers viewe these places you had sayde something For Reading ministers 1. Tim. 4. For reading ministers that is for reading the Scriptures publikely in the church by ministers view you these places 1. Tim. 4. Til I come giue attendance to readyng to exhortation to doctrine In the whiche wordes as Musculus sayeth Exprimit ordinem Ecclesiasticum quo primùm ex Musculus sacris Scripturis aliquid legebatur deinde exhortatio doctrina subijciebatur He expresseth the Ecclesiasticall order vvherein firste there is some thing reade out of the Scriptures then follovveth exhortation and doctrine Luke 4. Where wee learne that Christe beyng at Nazareth as his custome Christe read the scripture was wente into the Sinagogue on the Saboth day and stoode vp to reade c. And yet you saye Reading is not feedyng but it is as euill as playing Pag. 163 Lin. 2. Sect. 1. 2. 3. 4. vpon a stage and vvorse to for players yet learne theyr partes vvithout booke and these a many of them can scarcely reade vvithin booke That reading is feedyng Musculus giueth these reasons Firste Reading is feeding Musculus bycause it maketh the people experte and cunning in the Scriptures so that they can not be so easily deceyued with false teachers And therefore Iosephus Lib. 2. contra Appion speakyng of this commoditie of hauing the Scriptures read sayeth on this sorte In vnaquaque septimana ad legem audiendam conueniunt vniuersi Nostrorum quilibet de legibus interrogatus facilius quam nomen suum recitat vniuersas quippe mox à primo sensu discentes in animo velut inscriptas habemus Euery vveeke all the people come togither to heare the Lavve Euery one of vs demaunded any question of the lavve can ansvvere readily as he can tell his ovvne name For vvee learnyng the lavve euen from our youth haue it as it vvere vvritten in our memorie Secondly the publike reading of the Scripture is good for such as can not reade themselues to suche likewise as can reade but yet haue not the bookes of the holy Scripture at home in their houses Thirdly it maketh the people better to vnderstande the Sermons preached vnto them bycause through the continuall hearing of the Scriptures read they be acquainted with the wordes and phrases of the same Last of all it may be that some men be more edified by the simple reading of the scriptures than by sermons Admonition By this booke bare reading is (q) 1. Cor. 3. 5. good tilling and single seruice saying is excellent (r) 1. Cor. 3. 9. buylding and he is shepherde good inough that can as popish Priestes could out of their Portuis say fayrely their diuine seruice Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 165. Sect. vlt. Pag. 166. Here is much a do about bare reading and single seruice saying by like you lacke matter to make out your volume when you iterate one thing so often I tell you agayne no honest godly or learned man No godly mā 〈◊〉 reading in the churche euer hither to did or will disallow readyng of the Scriptures in the Churche or a prescript order of Common prayers Shew any learned mans iudgement to the contrary shewe the example of any Christian Churche of antiquitie or of any late reformed Churche wherein there is not both reading of the Scriptures in the publike congregation and a prescripte order of Common prayers Nay shewe any one sillable in the Scriptures to the contrary As for your places alleaged out of the 1. Corinth 3. vers 5. And 1. Corinth 3. vers 9 The one to proue that by the booke bare readyng is good tilling the other that by the same booke single seruice saying is excellent buyldyng c. They shewe your intollerable audacitie I will terme it no worse in abusing the Scriptures In that place to the Corinthes the Apostle sayeth thus VVho is Paule then vvho is Apollos 1. Cor. 3. But the mynisters by vvhomeyee beleeued and as the Lorde gaue to euery man Howe can you gather hereof that by the Communion booke bare readyng is good tilling or how can you hereof conclude that which I thinke you meane that the sole and onely reading of the Scriptures is not tilling or that the Scriptures may not be read in the open congregation by the Minister what s quele call you this Paule and Apollos be the ministers by whome you Unskilfull Logicians beleeued as the Lord gaue to euery man Therefore the readyng of the Scriptures edifie not or it is not lawfull for them to be read in the Churche by the Minister You come to soone from the vniuersitie to haue any great skill in Logike but belyke bycause there is mention made of tylling in the nexte verse of that chapter therefore you quote it in the margent missing onely the lyne for this is your vsuall manner if you haue but one worde in a texte whiche you vse in your booke you quote the place as though it made for your purpose This is neyther playne nor wise dealyng The examples of suche as haue bene conuerted by readyng of Pag. 168. Sect. 1. 2. 3. Many conuerted by hearing the scriptures read the Scriptures and hearyng of them read be infinite I knowe not wherevnto this your bitternesse agaynst readyng of the Scripture tendeth excepte it be to confirme an other opinion of the Papistes touching the obscuritie and darkenesse of the Scripture or diuerse senses and vnderstanding of the same If you ioyne with them in that also then I haue to say vnto you with S. Augustine In his quae apertè in Scripturis posita sunt inueniuntur illa omnia quae cōtinent sidē moresque viuēdi August In those things that be playne and manifest in the Scriptures are all such things conteyned vvhich perteyne to fayth and good manners And with Hierom. in Psalme 86. Sicut scripserunt Apostoli sic ipse Dominus hoc est per Euangelia Hierome sua locutus est vt non pauci intelligerent sed vt omnes Plato scripsit in scriptura sed non scripsit populo sed paucis vix enim intelligunt tres homines Isti verò hoc est principes E clesiae principes Christi non scripserunt paucis sed vniuerso populo As the Apostles vvrite so did the Lorde that is he spake by his Gospels not that a fevve but that all might vnderstand Plato vvritte but he vvritte to fevv not to the people for scarse three do vnderstand him these that is the Apostles vvritte not to fevv but to the vvhole people But I thinke you doubt not of this matter If the readyng of the scriptures edifie not what needed Chrysostome Chrysostome exhorteth the people to get Bibles writing vpon the third to the Coloss. so earnestly exhorte the people to get them Bibles or at the least the new
proue this to be true by the manyfest testimonies of the Scripture it selfe and also by sundrie other bothe auncient and late wryters but bicause I thinke it hathe but ouerslipped you and that vpon better aduise you will reforme it therfore I will cease to deale further in it vntill I vnderstande more of your meaning My conclusion touching Argumentes negatiue ab authoritate as I vnderstande it Argumentes ab authoritate negatiue and haue expounded it in the wordes following is very true and muste of necessitie be so You saye that when the question is of the authoritie of a man it holdeth neither affirmatiuely nor negatiuely Wherein you shewe your selfe not to be so skilfull in that the ignorance whereof you do so often in your booke obiecte vnto me for not in Aristotle An arg ent ab authoritate holdeth affirmatiuely onely lib. 3. Top. and lib. 2. Rhet. ad Theod. but in euery halfe penie Logike as you terme them the place ab authoritate is expressed and the argumentes taken oute of the same sayde to holde affirmatiuely and not otherwyse the rule whereof is thys Vnicuique in sua arte perito credendum est It is a good argument to saye that it is true bicause 1. Top. Cap. 8. Aristotle or Plato sayde it if it be of any thing pertayning to that Arte wherein Aristotle or Plato were cunning and expert Whether all things pertayning to the outwarde forme of the Churche be particularly expressed or commaunded in the Scripture or no is the question that we haue nowe in controuersie that God coulde doo it and therefore hathe done it is no good reason no more than it is for the reall presence in the Sacrament Affirmatiuely the argument is alwayes good of the authoritie of the Scripture as God hathe there commaunded it to be done therefore it muste be done Or the Scripture affirmeth it to be so Ergo it is so But negatiuely it holdeth not excepte in matters of saluation and damnation whiche is not my opinion onely but the opinion of the best interpreters Zuinglius in Elencho contra Catabaptist reproueth them Zuinglius in Elench for reasoning on this sorte his wordes be these You shall finde no way to escape for fondly you reason à factis exemplis negatiuely yea à non factis non exemplis for what other reason vse you than this we reade not that the Apostles baptized infants Ergo they are not to be baptized The examples that you vse in the. 7. of Ierem. verse 31. 32. and. 30. of Esay ver 2. The places which T. C. quoteth proue not his purpose to proue that in externall and indifferent matters we may reason negatiuely of the authoritie of the Scriptures are farre fetched and nothing to your purpose For that whiche the Prophet Ieremie speaketh of is a matter of great importance euen moste horrible and cruell sacrifices wherein they burnte their sonnes and daughters Iere. 7. ver 31. Whiche they were not only not commaunded to doo but expressely forbidden as it appeareth in the. 18. of Leuiti verse 21. and the. 20. of Leuiti verse 3. and the. 18. of Deutero verse 10. Nowe to reason thus God hathe commaunded that you shall not giue your children to be offered to Moloche and he hathe not giuen you any commaundement to the contrarie therefore you oughte not to haue offered them is affirmatiue not negatiue althoughe in this case béeing a matter of substance and of saluation or damnation for to kill and murther is of that nature a negatiue argument is very strong The Prophet Esay reproueth the Iewes for vsing their Esa. 30. ver 2. owne aduise séeking helpe of the Egyptians in the time of their aduersitie and not of the Lorde Whiche they dyd bothe contrarie to their owne promise and also contrarie to the commaundement of God Deutero 17. verse 16. But what is this to proue that we may reason negatiuely of the authoritie of the Scriptures in matters of rites and ceremonies and other indifferent things You accuse me for not alleadging of Scriptures better it were to alleadge none than thus to alleage them to no purpose or rather to abuse them Chapter 1. the. 2. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 21. Sect. 1. 2. 3. It is most true that nothing ought to be tollerated in the Churche as necessarie vnto saluation or as an article of faythe excepte Wherein the scripture is sufficient it be expresly contayned in the worde of God or may manyfestly thereof be gathered and therefore we vtterly condemne and reiecte Transubstantiation the Sacrifice of the Masse the authoritie of the Bishop of Rome worshipping of Images c. And in this case an argumente taken ab authoritate Scripturae negatiuè is most strong As for example It is not to be founde in Scripture that the Bishop of Rome oughte to be the head of the Churche and therfore it is not necessarie to saluation to beleeue that he ought to be the head of the Church c. It is also true that nothing in ceremonies order discipline or gouernment in the Church is to be suffred beyng against the worde of God And therefore we reiecte all ceremonies wherein there is any opinion to saluation worshipping of God or merite As creeping to the crosse holy bread holywater holycandle c. T. C. Pag. 14. Lin. 3. But you say that in matters of faith and necessarie to saluation it holdeth which things you oppose after and set against matters of ceremonies orders discipline gouernment (*) As thoughe i were inough for you to say on such sillie proofes as thoughe matters of discipline and kinde of gouernment were not matters necessarie to saluation and of faith (a) arg ex solis particularibus The case which you put whither the Bishop of Rome be head of the Church is a matter that concerneth the gouernment and the kinde of gouernment of the Churche and the same is a matter that toucheth faith and that standeth vpon our saluation Excommunication and other censures of the Church which are forerunners vnto excommunication are matters of discipline and the same are also of faith and of saluation The sacramentes of the Lordes Supper and of baptisme are ceremonies and are matters of faith and necessarie to saluation And therefore you which distinguishe betwene these and say that the former that is matters of faith and necessary to saluation may not be tolerated in the Churche vnlesse they be expressely contained in the worde of God or manifestly gathered But that this later which are ceremonies order discipline gouernment in the Churche may not be receyued against the worde of God and consequently receyued if there be no worde against thē although there be none for them you I say distinguishing or deuiding after this sorte doe proue your selfe to be as euill a deuider as you shewed your selfe before an expounder for this is to breake in pieces and
vnfashioned matter of building of the Churche were vttered in them and those things were lefte out that should pertaine to the forme and fashion of it or as if there were in the Scriptures (*) T. C. accoun th externall gouemm t more precious thaÌ„ the doctrine of faith only to couer hir nakednesse not also chaines and bracelets and rings and other iewels to adorne hir and set hir out or that to conclude there were sufficient to quench hir thirste and kill hir hunger but not to minister vnto hir a more liberall and as it were a móre delicious and daintie dyet These things you seen e to say when you saye that atters necessarie to saluation and of faith are contayned in the Scripture specially when you oppose these things to ceremonies order discipline and gouernment And if you meane by matters of faith and necessarie to saluation those without whiche a man can not be saued then the (*) Note this ssertion doctrine that teacheth there is no free will or prayer for the dead is not within your compasse For I dou t not but diuers of the fathers of the Greeke Church which were great patrons of free will are saued (a) He that dyeth in the opinion of free will holdeth not this foundation holding the foundation of the faith which is Christ. The like might be sayde of a number of other as necessarie doctrines as that wherein men being misseled haue notwithstaÌ„ding bene saued Therfore seing that the point of the question l eth chiefly in this distinction it had bene good that you had spoken (b) Why then aue not you done it speaking so daungerously more certainely and properly of these things Io. Whitgifte When you say That it i no small in urie that I doe vnto the worde of God to pinne it vp in so narrowe roome c. You doe but enlarge the volume of your booke with bare words that myght well be spared I gy e that perfection to the worde of God which the worde it selfe requireth and all godly learned men consent vnto and muche more doe I attribute vnto it than you do in saying that many things are both commaunded and forbyddeÌ„ of the which there is no expresse mentioÌ„ in the word which are as necessary to be followed Pag. 13. Sect. 2. or auoyded as those whereof expresse mention is made which I take to derogate much from the perfection of the Scriptures to be méere Papisticall and quite contrarie to that that you doe pretende I also confesse that in all other things we muste so be directed by the Scriptures that we doe nothing contrarie to the true sense and meaning of them no not in externall and in the leaste matters neyther doe I otherwise write teache or speake of the perfec ion and authoritie of the Scriptures than all other leane men and the reformed Churches teache write and beléeue wherefore I passe ouer your words and come to your reasons If I meane say you by matters of fayth and necessarie to saluation those without the which a man can not be saued c. I can not but muse what you meane willingly to pretende ignorance Is this thinke you a sounde argument Diuers of the fathers of the Greeke Churche which were greate patrons of free will are saued holding the foundation of the fayth which is Christ Ergo The doctrine of free will is not a doctrine of saluation or damnation you myght as well say that many in the popishe Church which beléeued that the Pope was supreme head of the Church that the Masse was a sacrifice for the quicke the dead and such like poynts of pâ—pisticall Religion be saued Ergo these are no matters of saluatioÌ„ or damnatioÌ„ Surely by the same reason al other kinde of sinnes almost The mercie of God infinite might be without this compasse But it may please you to vnderstand that the mercie of God in his sonne Iesus Christ is infinite and that he pardoneth at his good will and pleasure not onely misbeliefe procéeding of ignorance but wilfull erreurs and sinnes also thoughe they be of themselues damnable he also altereth the minde of man euen in a moment and therefore as hys mercyes be infinite so be his iudgementes vnsearchable Wherefore this your reason is vttered without due consideration The doctrine of free wyll bycause it is an enimye to the grace of God must néedes be of it selfe a damnable doctrine yet doth it not preiudice the mercie of God nor finally shut oute repentance the gifte of God And full well doe you knowe that he can not hold y e foundation of faith that is Christ perfectly which is a mayntayner of free will But leauiug the weight of such kind of argumentes to the consideration of the Reader I come to the purpose When I saye that an argument holdeth negatiuely from the authoritie of the Scripture in matters of fayth and necessarie to saluation my meaning is manifest which is this that the Scriptures doe containe all things necessarie to be beléeued and to saluation and therfore whatsoeuer is taught vnto vs as an article of fayth and necessarie to saluation not contained in the scriptures that same to be false and vntrue and therefore to be reiected As for example the doctrine of fre wyll of Purgatorie of praying for the dead of praying to Saint of the sacrifice of the Masse c. are not contayned in the Scriptures and therefore they be not doctrines to be beléeued nor necessarie to saluation but damnable d ctrynes of themselues and repugnant to saluation Surely I thinke in this poynte that you neither vnderstande me nor your selfe my meaning is plaine that nothing is necessarie to saluation which is not plainely contained in the Scriptures Chap. 1. the fourth Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 21. Sect. 4. But that no ceremonie order discipline or kinde of gouernmente What things the Scripture hath not expressed but left to the ordering of the Church may be in the Churche except the same be expressed in the worde of God is a great absurditie and breedeth many inconueniences T. C. Pag. 14. Sect. 3. But to the ende it may appeare that this speach of yours doth some thing take vp and shrinke the armes of the Scripture which otherwise are so long large I say that the word of God containeth the direction of all things pertaining to the Church yea of whatsoeuer things can fall into any part of mans lyfe For so Salomon saith in the seconde chapter of the Prouerbes My sonne if thou receiue my words and hide my preceptes in the. c. then thou shalt vnderstande iustice and The Scripture wrested by T. C. iudgement and equitie and euery good way S. Paule sayth that whither we eate or drinke or 1. Cor. 10. what soeuer we do we must doe it to the glory of God But no man can glorifie God in any thing but by obedience and there is no
like matters I woulde wishe you to deale sineerely the question that we haue nowe in ▪ The suttle dealing of T. C. in altering y e state of the controuersie hande is VVhether the Scripture hath expressed all externall things touchyng the orders Ceremonyes and gouernment of the Churche I proue it hath not both by the Scripture it selfe and by manyfest examples and by the iudgement of the beste learned you not beyng able to answere and yet desyrous to séeme to saye somewhat to shifte of these examples and authorities dallie at the matter and would make your Reader beléeue that I woulde haue thyngs vsed in the Churche contrarye or not accordyng to the Scriptures from the whych opinion I am as farre of as you and a greate waye farther excepte you reuoke some poyntes of youre Booke You shoulde therefore nowe haue kepte you to the improuyng of thys generall proposition and if hereafter in speakyng of particular matters I had approued any thing against the word of God you might haue spent ▪ your wit and eloquence in confuting of that You saye that thys place of Saynte Augustyne maketh muche agaynst me c. but you are greatly deceyued for Saint Augustyne in that place doth not gyue a certayne rule to the whole Churche but to particular men for it is hys aunswere so Ca ulanus demaundyng of hym Vtrùm liceat sabbato ieiunare A priuate man maye not take vpon hym to violate the particular orders of anye particular Churche much lesse suche orders as be obserued of the whole Churche excepte they be agaynst the Scriptures for bothe in thys and suche other rules of Augustyne that is generally to be obserued whyche the same Augustyne dothe adde in hys 118. Epistle ad Ianuarium quod nequè contra fidem nequè bonos mores iniungitur c. And that thys Augu. ep 〈◊〉 rule In bis rebus de quibus nihil certi c. is gyuen to particular men to dryue them from schismes and contentions in the Churche it is euident by that whyche the same Augustyne writeth in the ende of that Epistle ad Casulanum VVherefore if Idem you wyll willyngly content your selfe wyth my counsell namely whych haue in this cause being by you required and constrayned spoken peraduenture more than enough doe not resiste your Byshoppe herein and followe that whyche he dothe wythout any scruple or doubte Wherefore when Saint Augustyne sayth Mos populi Dei c. hys meanyng is that they are to be obserued as rules to kéepe priuate and particular men in order and in quiet obedience to the Churche Althoughe in deede The Church may not alter any order generally obserued without iust cause the Churche it selfe maye not wythoute iuste cause chaunge suche thyngs as haue beene generally obserued not beyng contra fidem bonos more 's agaynst faythe and good manners as the Lordes daye the daye of the Resurrection Ascention and suche lyke And there maye be iuste causes why thyngs once determyned by the Churche shoulde not be chaunged afterwardes thoughe before the same thyngs were arbitrarye and myghte haue béene otherwyse and in some other manner decréed as the Churche had thoughte moste conuenient If no suche causes be it maye alter anye vse Ceremonye or order whiche it hathe before determyned as Saynt Augustyne hym selfe declareth Epist. 118. ad Ianuarium His Idem enim causis id est propter fidem aut propter mores vel emendari oportet quod perperam fiebat vel institui quod non fiebat Ipsa quippe mutatio consuetudinis etiam quae adiuu t vtilitate nouitate perturbat For these causes that is to saye for faythe and good manners eyther that muste be amended whiche was euyll done or appoynted which was not done for euen that chaunge of Custome whych helpeth throughe profitte doth trouble through noueltie Nowe howe true thys collection of yours is Augustyne prescribeth thys rule to Casulanus that in those thyngs wherein the Scripture hathe determyned no cer aynetie he shoulde followe the Custome of the people of God and the decrees of oure forefathers that is that he shoulde vse hymselfe in those thyngs ▪ that be not agaynste faythe and good manners accordyng to the order of the Churches where he commeth therefore these Customes vpon iuste cause maye not be altered by the Churche let the learned Reader iudge Ap nate man a I sayde may not breake the lawfull and good orders of the Churche thoughe they be not expressed in the worde of God yet maye suche as God hathe gy that authoritie vnto in hys Churche alter and chaunge them as shall be moste 〈◊〉 euen according to this r le of Augustyne bis im 〈◊〉 id est aut propter fidem aut prop ores vel emendari oportet quod perpe m fiebat vel institui quod non f ebat c. before by me recyted We must followe suche cu omes of the Apostles and examples as they haue vsed What examples and customes of the Apostles we must follow and done for vs to followe but suche customes or doyngs of the Apostles as 〈◊〉 eyther peculiar vnto thems lues o 〈◊〉 onely for such 〈◊〉 they 〈◊〉 in ▪ we are not compelled to followe For as in the Scriptures 〈◊〉 be me preceptes generall some onely rsonall so are there in the sa of examples and orders some that for euer are to be obserued and some for a 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that there were suche customes and orders among them shal be declared in seue all places as occasion is minis red Whether we haue receyued or maye retayne customes c. of the Papistes or no is partly to be discussed where I speake of apparell and partly in other places where more particular occasion is offered to speake of the same and therefore I will passe it ouer vntill I come to those places Whyther it were well done to fast in all places according to the custome of the place or no is not the question I looke to Augustynes meanyng and purpose not to euerye one of hys examples howbeit I thinke that there is a greate difference betwixte the manner of fastyng vsed then in the Churche and the manner of fasting vsed nowe in some Churches I thinke that in Augustynes tyme a man myghte haue obserued this rule of fastyng wythout anye offence to God But I doe not thinke that he may doe so in lyke manner nowe bycause it is certayne that in the Churche of Rome there are manye wicked opinions bothe of differences of meates tymes c. and also of merite ioyned to theyr fastyng and therefore are contra fidem bonos more 's and so not wythin the compasse of thys rule of S. Augustine I perceyue no repugnancie at all betwixte Ambrose Augustyne Ignatius and The Replyer setteth the fathers together by the eares without cause Tertullian For the Sabboth daye mentioned by Ambrose and Augustyne is not the Lordes daye whych we call the
Euery one that consenteth to Orders and subscribeth vnto them dothe not therefore make them Wherefore they maye properly be sayde to be made by the Apostles and Elders onely thoughe the people allowed well of them and consented to them And therefore sayth M. Caluine the modestie of the people Cal. in 15. Act. herein dothe appeare that after they had committed the decidyng of the controuersies to the Apostles and other Doctours they were also contente to subscribe to their decree Whether there be any suche manner of speache or no in the Romayne stories it is not materiall neyther is there any thing here spoken whyche proueth that thys is suche a manner of speache wherefore it muste remayne as proper and literally true vntill there be stronger reasons brought to proue as playnely that the people ordeyned ministers as it is here written that Paule and Barnabas did Chap. 4. the thirde Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 43. Lin. 8. And the Greeke worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 although it signifie to elect by putting vp of handes yet it is the common opinion almoste of all Ecclesiasticall writers that this worde in Scripture is vsed for the solemne maner of ordering ministers by the imposition of hands T. C. Pag. 29. Sect. 6. Pag. 30. Sect. 1. 2. 3. 4. And I maruayle with what conscience he coulde answere so in this place especially where it is forthwith added that they ordeyned them by the suffrages and voyces of the Church But you say that the Greeke worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is by the common opinion of almost all ecclesiasticall wryters vsed in the scripture for the solemne maner of ordeyning of ministers by the imposition of hādes which is the seconde exception you take to this reason Wherein but that I haue promised to holde my selfe to the matter and that these bolde asseuerances in matters most vntrue are so cōmon that if I shoulde euery foote pursue them I should wearie my selfe and all others I coulde not keepe my selfe from running out to maruell at suche high speaches voyde of truth First where you say that somè translation hath that they ordeyned ministers without making mention of Election what haue you gayned thereby when I can shewe moe that translate it otherwise and say it is that they ordeyned by election or voyces or suffrages I had not the commoditie of Bokes whereby I coulde see the iudgement of all Ecclesiasticall writers But of those which I had I finde that there was but (a) An vntruth as will appeare one onely M. Gualter of that minde and yet he doth not shut out the peoples consentin the Election neyther M. Caluine M. Beza M. Bullinger M. Musculus M. Brentius he that translated Chrysostome vpon that place Erasmus in his Paraphrases vpon that place are of the contrarie iudgement of whose iudgement I woulde not haue spoken if you would not haue gone about thus to abuse your reader with such manifest vntruthes to ouerthrow the order which God hath established But let all authorities of men goe and let vs examine the thing in it selfe If so be that the holie Ghost had meant the solemne putting on of the hands vpon the hed of him that was created Elder and Minister had he not words inow to vtter this his meaning would he haue for laying on of hands vsed a word that signifieth lyfting vp of handes would he haue vsed a word signifying holding vp for laying downe for when the handes are layde of the heade of an other they are layde downe and not holden vp There are woordes in the olde Testamente and in the newe before Luke wrote and after he wrote to expresse thys Ceremonie of laying on of hands and yet none haue euer expressed this Saincte Paule speaketh thrise of it in his Epistles to Timothie and alwayes hee vseth 1. Tim. 4. 1. Tim. 5. 2. Tim. 1. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 In the olde Testamente where this ceremonie is vsed and spoken of the Septuaginta did neuer traslate 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 But as the wryters of the newe Testament 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 And what shoulde I stande in thys when as Sainct Luke himselfe bothe before and after speakyng of that Ceremonie of laying on of handes dothe neuer vse this woorde 8. Actes 9. Actes 19. Actes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 but the same woorde whyche Saincte Paule vseth and the Septuaginta And althoughe the Holye Ghoste speake proprely and well by whome soeuer he speaketh yet it coulde haue bene worste of all sayde by Saincte Luke of all the Canonicall writers that hee shoulde speake thus vnproprely who of them all wryteth moste purely and elegantely accordyng to the phrase of the moste eloquent Grecians and therefore hee borrowed thys speache of the auncient Greeke wryters whyche dyd vse to expresse theyr Elections by thys worde bycause they were made and voyces giuen by this Ceremonie of lyftyng vp of handes But what if Saincte Luke haue vsed this worde before and in thys booke in the signification of choosyng by voyce dare you then saye that he vseth it here for putting on of hands In the. 10. of the Actes Sainct Peter sayth that Christe after his resurrection appeared not vnto the whole people but vnto those whome he had before chosen by his (b) If you will graunte that this word is taken for electing by one voice we shall soone agree voyce to bee his witnesses he vseth this 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Nowe if you will saye here that it is to be turned those of whome he layde his handes I will aske you where you reade that euer he layde his handes of theyr heades I will shewe you where he dyd by hys heauenly voyce appoynt them And I thynke you are not able to shewe in any Greeke authour auncient and whiche men doo take to be autenticall to teache the propertie or eloquence of the greke tongue I meane whyche were before Saincte Luke his tyme where the worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is taken for the laying on of handes of the head of any This I confesse that the Greeke Ecclesiasticall wryters haue sometymes vsed it so but you must remember that Sainct Luke coulde not learne to speake of them that came two or three hundred yeares after him but he borowed this phrase of speach of those that were before him and therefore speaketh of elections as they dyd So that you see this shift will not serue Io. Whitgifte There is nothyng to proue that they ordeyned them by the suffrages of the Churche but this worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the acceptation whereof in this place is nowe in question I say still that although it proprely signifie to electe by putting vp of handes yet is it the common opinion almoste of all ecclesiastical The signification of the worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 writers that it is vsed in Scripture for the solemne maner of ordering ministers by the imposition of handes And that thys is
to him alone who knoweth those that be his If they communicate with vs in hearing the worde and receyuing the Sacramentes thoughe otherwyse they be drunkardes supersticious or infected with errours in doctrine c. yet must we count them in the Church vntil they be cut of from it by excommunication Wherefore whoremōgers Papistes Idolatrous and superstitious persons though they be knowne to be suche if they do cōmunicate with vs in the word and sacraments are to be counted in the Church vntill they be orderly secluded from the same And yet there may be Papistes Atheistes and suche lyke though they be not commonly knowne to be suche And you knowe well inough that they which in déede are Papistes in opinion yet if they be content to conforme them selues to the outwarde orders of the Churche would stande in their owne defense agaynst him that should accuse them They 〈◊〉 are in the Church and not of the Church are not hypocrite onely T. C. eueth place agaynst himselfe Neither is it true that onely hypocrites are suche as be in the Churche and are not of the Churche That chapter which you quote in your margent and almost the whole Epistle doth declare the contrarie For the incestuous Corinthian was in the Church vntill he was excommunicated And the Apostle there speaking of whoremongers Idolaters c ▪ sayth Si quis cum frater appelletur fuerit s ortator c. If any whiche is called Cor. 5. a brother be a fornicatour or couetous or an Idolater or a rayler or a drunkarde or an extortioner with suche one eate not By the name of brethren were those onely then called whiche did professe themselues to be Christians and were so accounted to be And master Caluine speaking agaynst the like errour of the Anabaptistes after that he had spoken of hypocrites in the Churche addeth and sayth Nonnunquà m etiam admixti Caluin aduers. Anabap. contemptores dei vitae dissolutae flagitiosae aut qui sibi cauebunt ne reprehendantur ab hominibus sed interim ostendunt se nullo dei timore nulla reuercntia tangi Oftentimes also there are mingled contemners of God men of dissolute and wicked life or suche as wil be sure to keepe them selues out of daunger of mens reprehension when as notwithstanding they shewe themselues not to be touched with any feare or reuerence of God If you meane that place 1. Cor. 5. where S. Paule sayth Si quis cum frater appelletur c. If any man which is called a brother c. and thinke that thereby they are secluded from the externall societie of the Churche you take the words of S. Paule amisse as the Anabaptistes did to whome obiecting that place M. Caluine answered in his booke written agaynst them in this maner Quòd autem vetat Paulus cum his cibum sumere Ibidem qui sunt vitae dissolutae id ad priuatam consuetudinem pertinet nō ad publicam cōmunionem VVheras Paule forbiddeth that we should eate with them which are of a dissolute life and behauiour that perteyneth onely to priuate familiaritie and not to the publike cōmunion Nowe if we ought to receyue the Communion with them we ought also to accompt them in the externall societie of the Churche But why do you thus séeke to shifte of those matters whiche you can not answere Is it not certayne that there is in the externall societie of the Churche a farre greater number of suche than there was in the Apostles time whiche if it be true as it can not be denied then do I still affirme that the election of the minister can not be safely committed to the people It is wel that you take vpō you to prescribe vnto the Magistrate how to deale with such as be not in the Church I pray you where finde you any such maner of dealing towards them appoynted vnto the ciuill Magistrate if you haue any scripture for it why do you not alleage it if you haue none what presumption is entred into you thus imperiously to prescribe lawes vnto Magistrates But what if there be playne scripture that they ought not to be admitted to the hearing of the worde if they be Math. 7. dogges and swine what say you to this Giue not that which is holy to dogges neither cast ye your pearles to swyne Your distinction betwixte the Churche and the common wealthe if it were in Neroes or Dioclesians time mighte be admitted withoute exception but in my opinion it is not so fytte in thys tyme and especially in this kingdome Maye he be a member of a Christian common wealth that is not in the Church of Christ if you had sayde that he maye be in the power and at the wyll and pleasure of a Christian Magistrate that is not in the Churche of Christe I coulde well haue lyked of it but it can not yet synke into my head that he should be a member of a Christian common wealth that is not also a member of the Churche of Christ concerning the outwarde societie M. Musculus in my iudgement speaketh truely agaynst this distinction of yours betwixte the Church and a Christian common wealth in his com pla it de magistra Let the Ethnikes and Infidels liuing not in the vnitie of truth but in the confusion Musculus of errors haue diuerse Magistrates and lawmakers some prophane and some holy bycause their lyfe is altogether prophane and their Religion nothing else but superstition Christian people are in euery respecte holy and consecrated vnto the name and glory of Christ not in temples onely and ecclesiasticall ceremonies but in all their lyfe in euerye place at all times in all things actions and studyes that according to the Admonition of the Apostle 1. Cor. 10. whether he eateth or drinketh or whatsoeuer he doth he doth it to the glorie of God c. wherfore that distinction of ecclesiasticall and prophane lawes can haue no place in it bycause there is nothing in it that is prophane seyng that it is a holy people vnto the Lorde God and the Magistrate is holy and not prophane his authoritie holy hys lawes holy c. be it therefore farre from the Church of Christ that it should be partly holy partly prophane c. But all this from the purpose and you make to many friuolous digressions from the matter which compelleth me also in following you to doe the lyke Chap. 6. the. 5. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 45. Sect. 2. Fiftly in the Apostles time there was no Churche established being In the Apostles time no church established and no christian Magistrate then no Christian Magistrates and therefore the state of the Church was popular nowe there is Christian Magistrates and a Church established and subiect to rulers c. T. C. Pag. 35. Sect. 1. If there be no churches established bycause there were no Christian Magistrates then the churches of the Apostles were not established
dead with this condition if they be worthy and the people choose them the Byshop of the citie of Alexandria togither giuing his consent and appoynting him Io. Whitgifte The Councell in that epistle first declareth what was done with Arius then what became of Melitius how he was deposed from his Bishoprike and yet suffered to remayne in his owne citie but to haue no authoritie of choosing or ordeyning ministers either in the prouince or in any other citie After it sheweth that such as were ordeyned and made ministers or promoted by him shoulde kéepe their ministerie and honoure but not haue any authoritie in elections or in preferring of any to any degrée The. li. cap. 9. of ministerie wherevpon it by and by followeth qui verò Dei gratia c. but those that by the grace of God and your prayers haue not bin factious and scismaticall but kept themselues vndefyled in the Catholike and Apostolike Church it is meete that they should haue authoritie and power both to choose any man and to giue their names whiche are worthy to be of the Cleargy And to do all things according to the lawes and decrees of the Church Their meaning is euident that suche only of the Cleargy shoulde haue to do in electing or preferring any to the ministerie whiche haue not bin schismaticall and factious in the time of heresie for these words of the Councel are not spokē of the people but of the Cleargie as the circumstance of the place doth declare which thing Iacobus Grinaeus noteth in the margēt in these words Iura Clericorum qui ortbodoxi manserunt That which followeth and if it happen any to dye in the Church c. dothe argue that the people had a consent in those Churches according to the orders whereof the Councel would haue them to procéede but it maketh no new law for it neyther doth it decrée any thing as concerning it And it is euident that their order herein was not generall but particular to those Churches for it followeth after in the same epistle This order was peculiar to Egypt and Alexandria Haec propriè peculiariter ad Aegyptum atque sanctissimam Alexandrinam ecclesiam pertinent So that it is manifest that the meaning of the Councel was not to bind all Churches to this order But al this laboure of yours is lost for you go about to proue that which no man denieth Chap. 6. the twelfth Diuision T. C. Page 37. Sect. 4. Another of the famousest councels called the Councel of Constantinople which was gathered vnder Theodosius y e great as it is witnessed by the Tripartite story in an epistle which it wrote Lib. 9. cap. 19. to Damasus the Pope and Ambrose and others saith thus we haue ordeyned Nectarius the Byshop of Constantinople with the whole consent of the Councel in the sight of the Emperoure Theodosius beloued of God the whole citie togyther decreeing the same Likewise he saythe that Flanian was appoynted by that Synode byshop of Antioch the whole people appoynting him Io. Whitgifte The words in that epistle both as the Tripartite histo and as Theodoret himselfe reporteth them lib. 5. cap. 9. signify that the whole citie was well pleased that Nectarius was chosen to be their Byshop and consented vnto it But it dothe not therefore follow that the whole citie did choose him In Theodoret I find these words Reuerendissimum T e. li. 5. cap. 9 dei amantissimū Nectarium episcopū praeposuimus in generali nostro Cō ilio praesente amantissimo dei Imperatore Theodosio cum omnium clericorum ac totius ciuitatis approbatione VVe haue placed or ordeyned the most reuerend and louing Nectarius in our generall Councel both Theodosius the Emperoure most beloued of God being presente and also with the approbation of all the Cleargie and the whole citie They saye we haue placed or ordeyned Nectarius c. and they whiche say so were Byshops Moreouer Theodoret in the chapter that goeth before saith plainly that the Pastors and ministers did choose him Byshop But be it that the whole citie did giue their voyces that is no proofe that at all times it must of necessitie be so The same answer I make to your example of Flauianus Chap. 6. the xiij Diuision T. C. Page 37. Sect. 5. 6. 7. Likewise in the councell of Carthage where Augustine was holden about Anno Domin Needelesse proo fes 400. in the first Canon of the Councel it is sayd when he hath bin examined in all these and found fully instructed then let him be ordeyned Byshop by the common consent of the Clearks and the lay people and the Byshops of the prouince and especially either by the authoritie or presence of the Metropolitane And in the Toletane councell as it appeareth in the. 51. distinction it was thus ordeyned Let not him be counted a Priest of the Churche for so they speake whome neyther the Cleargie nor people of that citie where he is a Priest doth choose nor the consent of the Metropolitane and other Priests in that prouince had sought after Moreouer Concilium Gabilonense whiche was holden Anno domini 650. in the tenth Canon hath this If any Byshop after the death of his predecessor be chosen of any but of the Byshops in the same prouince ▪ and of the Cleargie and citizens let another be chosen and if it be otherwise let that ordinatiō be accompted of none effect Al which Councels proue manifestly that as the people in their elections had the ministers round about or Synods and councels directing them so there was none came to be ouer the people but by their voyces and consents Io. Whitgifte This which is affirmed of these Councels is confessed to be true but not to the purpose for the question is not whether the peoples consent were required at any time or no but whether it must be required at all times Chap. 6. the. xiiij Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 45. Sect. 4. This alteration of gouernment and orders in the Church of Christ is well set out by Ambrose in the. 4. to the Ephe. vpon these wordes Et ipse dedit c. where he saith on this sort that the number of Christians Ambrose might encrease and be multiplyed in the beginning it vvas permitted to euery one to preach the gospell to baptise and to expound the scriptures but vvhen the Church vvas enlarged there vvere certayne parishes appoynted and gouernoures and other officers ordeyned in the Church c. Therfore the vvritings of the Apostles do not in all things agree vvith the orders that are novv in the Church Thus farre Ambrose T. C. Pag. 38. Sect. 1. Indeede if you put such darke colours vpon the Apostles Church as this is it is no maruell if it ought not to be a patrone to vs of framing and fashioning our Church after it But O Lorde who can paciently heare this horrible disorder ascribed to the Apostles Church whiche
them when as the Byshopprike of Rome and of Alexandria nowe a good whyle was passed beyonde the Limites of Priesthoode to an outwarde Dominion He sayth not leauing the sacred function were degenerate to a secular rule and dominion as you translate it But why doth Socrates burste out into thys reprehension of them euen bycause Socrates a fauourer of y e Nouatians Niceph. lib. 6. Cap. 37. lib. 9. 13. they expelled the Nouatian heretikes of whome Socrates was a fautor as it may appeare in Nicephorus wherefore he dothein that place affectionately and vniustly reproue both the Byshop of Rome and Alexandria for stoutly resisting those heretikes and expelling them from their Churches especially they nowe increasing to so great a multitude as it may séeme by Socrates wordes they dyd And althoughe the words of Socrates whiche I haue alreadie recyted iustifie this to be true yet doth his words followyng declare the same more euidently For he commendeth the Byshop of Constantinople bycause he friendly interteyned the Nouatians suffered them quietly to remayne wythin the Citie and yet it is certayne that the Byshop of Constantinople had as large authoritie as the Byshop of Alexandria wherefore Socrates in thys poynt is no more to be beléeued against those Byshops than you are against the Socrates doings agreable to our time Byshoppes in thys Churche whose authoritie you maligne vpon the lyke occasion Chap. 2. the. 40. Diuision T. C. Pag. 74. Sect. 3. 4. And (a) Where i truth become although M. Doctor hath brought neither Scripture nor reason nor Councell wherein there is either name of Archbyshop or Archdeacon or proued that there may be And althoughe he shew not so much as the name of them foure hundred yeares after our saniour Christ. And although where he sheweth them they be either by counterfeit authors or without any worde (b) Would you haue better 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 tha decrees for th authoritie and continuall 〈◊〉 I se of approbation of good authors yet as though he had shewed all and proued all hauing shewed nothing nor proued nothing he clappeth the hands to himself and putteth the crowne vpon his owne head saying that those that be learned maye easily vnderstande that the names Archbyshop Archdeacon Primate Patriarke be most auncient and approued of the eldest best worthiest Councels fathers writers and a little afterward that they are vnlearned and ignorant which saye otherwyse Here is (c) Vanitie a victorye blowen with a great and sounding trumpet that myghtè haue bene piped with an o en straw and if it shoulde be replyed againe that M. Doctor hath declared in this little learning little reading and lesse iudgement there mighte growe controuersies without all fruite Io. Whitgifte If I were not acquainted with this spirit it would make me muse at such euident and manifest vntruthes ioyned with so prophane iestes and tauntes If I had alleaged no moe authorities but onely the Councell of Nice it had bene sufficient to haue disproued this so bolde assertion of yours But séeyng I haue alleaged other testimonies also which euidently proue my purpose I muste néedes thinke you not to be a man that greatly careth for your owne credit but if you thinke they are few therefore accompt them for none I haue now I trust in this Chapter 25. Diuision supplyed their want and made vp the number What Scriptures I haue appeareth afterwards It is sufficient if I finde there the office of an Archbishop as I doubte not but I shall and therefore I say againe that to doubt of the antiquitie of these names and offices argueth great penurie of reading the auncient writers Chap. 2. the. 41. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 67. Sect. 4. And for as much as the originall and beginning of these names Metropolitane Archbyshop Archdeacon Primate Patriarke and such like such is their antiquitie cannot be found so farre as I haue reade it is to be supposed they haue their originall from the Apostles themselues For as I remember S. Augustine hath thys rule in hys August ▪ 118. Epist. ad Ianuar. Those things that be not expressed in the Scriptures and yet by tradition obserued of the vvhole Churche come eyther from the Apostles or from generall Councels as the obseruing of Easter the celebrating of the day of the ascention and of the comming of the holy Ghost suche like Uery vnlearned therefore and ignorant be those which so boldly affirme that these names vsed in the purest time of the church be Antichristian T. C. Page 74. Sect. 4. 5. And by and by in saying that the Archbyshops beginning is vnknowne in steade of a (a) Modestie bastard which some brought into the Church that hid themselues bycause they were ashamed of y ◠child he will make vs beleue that we haue a newe Melchisedech without father without mother whose generation is not knowen and so concludeth with the place of S. Augustine as farre as he remembreth in the. 118. Epistle to Ianuarie that the original of them is from the Apostles themselues Here (b) This is fro the matter M. Doctor seemeth to seeke after some glory of a good memory as thoughe he had net Augustine by him when he wrote thys sentence and yet he maruellously forgetteth himselfe for he vsed this place before in his 23. Page and cyteth it there precisely and absolutely where also I haue shewed howe vnaduisedly that sentence of Augustine is approued and howe that thereby a window is open to bryng in all Popery whatsoeuer other corrupt opinions That the names of Lordes and honour as they are vsed in this Realme are not meete to be giuen to the Ministers of the Gospell there hath bene spoken before Io. Whitgifte This place of Augustine is of greater force and credite with those that be learned than that it can be shifted off I haue answered whatsoeuer you saye against it in that place and shewed of what credite it is with some famous writers of our time namely with Master Zuinglius Master Caluine and Master Gualter And surely I thinke no learned man doth dissent from them Your iestes are to vsuall and vnséemely for a Diuine especially when you abuse the scripture to make sport withal I might haue sayd also of you y t you sought after some glory of a good memorie when as you vsed the like kinde of speach in alleaging of Gildas and Lumbard Pag. 68. but that I am not delighted with such kinde of eloquence Pag. 68. Sect. 4. Chap. 2. the. 42. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 65. Sect. 5. Whether that the name of Prelate of the Garter Earle Coūtie Palatine Honor high commissioner Iustice of peace and Quorum Ciuill offices giuē to ecclesiasticall persons being necessary offices in this common weale partly for the honour of the Prince and Realme but especially for good gouernment of all estates and degrees of persons be Antichristian let those consider
to a place byshops or at the leas to consent therevnto to suppresse schismes and such like was affixed to the place and byshop of the same as to Rome Cō tantinople Alexandria c. this do all the olde canons declare as the. 6. and. 7. Canon of the councell of Nice the. 9. of the councell of Antioch and the. 5. of the generall councell of Constantinople the. 12 of the second councell of Carthage the. 21. Concilij Mileuitani the. 11. of the generall councell of Chalcedon to be short all these testimonies and examples alleadged of me before out of Cyprian c. and the continuall practise of the Church And therefore such new cautions here by you set downe be only méete for such a strange and mishapen platforme and kynd of gouernment as is by you and your faction deuised Chap. 3. the. 47. Diuision T. C. Pag. 85. Sect. 2. 3. 4. Of this order and pollicie of the Church if we will see a liuely image a d perfect patterne let vs set before ou eyes the most auncient and gospellike Church that euer was or shal be In the first of the Actes the Church being gathered togither for the election of an Apostle into the place of Iudas the traytor when as the interest of election belonged vnto all and to the Apostles especially aboue the rest out of the whole company Peter riseth vp telleth the cause of their comming togyther with what cautions and qualities they ought to choose another conceyueth the prayer whereby the help of God in that election and his direction is begged and no doubt ex cuted the resi ue of the things which perteyned vnto the whole action In the. of the Actes all the Apostles are accused of dronke nesse Peter answer d for them all wypeth away the infamie they were charged with But you will saye where are the voyces of the rest which did choose Peter vnto this (*) What is this but a meere con 〈◊〉 or ather an imagine answer o yo r ow e ▪ First you must kn w that the scripture setteth not downe euery circumstance and then surely you do Peter great iniurie that aske whether he were chosen vnto it for is it to be thought that Peter would thrust in himselfe to this office or dignitie without the consent and allowance of his fellowes and preuent his fellowes of this preheininence vndoutedly if it had not bin done arrogantly yet it must needes hau a great shew of arrogancie if he had done this without the consent of his fellowes And here you shall heare what the scholiast saith which gathereth the iudgement of greeke diumes (a) This is not poken o cho ing eter to be speaker but of lecting Matthias which pe eyned not to Peter alone 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 speaking of Peter 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Behold how he doth all with their common consent And if any man hervpon will say that Peter exercised domination ouer the rest or gat any ar hapostleship beside that the whole storie of the Actes of the Apostles and his whole course of life doth refute that the same scholiast which I made mention of in the same place sayth he did nothing 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 imp riously nothing 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 with dominion or power further I will admonish him to take heede least if he s riue so farre for the Archbishop he slide or euer he be aware into the entes of the Papists which vse these places to proue that Peter had authoritie and rule ouer the rest of the Apostles Io. Whitgifte This is a rodd to beate your selfe with for it is euident euen by these wordes of yours that your deuise is most farthest from the Apostolicall forme for Peter in all Peter chee e in Apostolicall assemblies such assemblies is the chiefe speaketh the first and moderateth the rest in whiche respect most of the olde ecclesiastical writers count him the chiefe of the Apos les neyther do the la e writers diss nt from them in that poynt and yet is there no daunger of sliding into the Papists tents who by this woulde proue the Popes supremacie whose arguments you haue vsed and I haue confuted before To preuent subtily that question which neyther yo do nor can answer that is where it is in scripture mentioned that at euery action or at any time Peter was chosen to speake before the rest or to gouerne the action ou say that first I must know that the scripture setteth not downe euery circumstance and then that I do Peter great iniurie that aske whether he were chosen to it c. To the first I answer that you ought to know how wicked and vngodly a thing it is to ground the alteration of any lawfull kinde of g uernment so long continued and in the best times of the Church practised vpon your owne fonde deuise and coniectures without any ground of scripture yea to make that Peter not cho sen in euery action to be chee e. your foundation which you cannot fynde in the whole scripture but the cleane contrary For shew me one péece of a text that doth but insinuate Peter to haue bin at any time in any action chosen to direct the action I can shew you the contrary especially in the second of the Actes where Peter sodainly answered with a notable apologie in the presence of the Apostles the accusation of dronkennesse layde agaynst him and them neyther can it be that he should expect the voyces of the rest to choose him to be the chéefe for that time in that action Whosoeuer shall well consider the first of the Actes and the. 15. and other places where mention is made of Peters speaking as he shall perceiue that this was Peters peculiar office and always apperteyning vnto him from the ascensiō of Christ to his dying day so shall he also easily vnderstand that he was not at any time chosen to that office by voyces much lesse at euery particular méeting or singular action And dare you presume vpon vaine coniectures without warrant of scripture to bild the foundation of your kinde of gouernment whyche you before sayde is a matter of faythe and saluation is not thys to open a way to vnwritten veri ies and phantasticall interpretatious if your wordes be of suche weighte wyth the Reader that bycause you speake them therefore hée will be aeue them per me ▪ licebit but thys I will assure hym of that he shall beléeue that that is neyther grounded vppon Scripture nor anye learned or aunciente authoritie To the seconde that is that I doe Peter great iniurie c. I saye that I doe him no iniurie at all when I affirme that of hym that the scripture dothe and presume not of mine owne brayne for the mainteyning of an euill cause to imagin that of him whych I haue my selfe deuised besides the word of God as you do most manifestly Peter did not thrust himselfe into any
Whitgifte What opinion Master Caluine hathe of Archbyshops and of Superioritie amongest Pastors and Ministers maye appeare in his wordes that I haue alleaged in my Answere I thinke Master Caluine neuer vttered in worde or wryting hys mislyking of the present gouernmente of thys Churche of Englande by Archbyshops and Byshops what he hath spoken agaynst the abuse of them in the Popes Church is not to be wrested against the right vse of them in the true Churche of Christ. I haue answered the Scriptures by you alleaged truely and directly You haue not as yet vrged me wyth that authoritie of Master Caluine that I haue so shifted of as you haue done this last The Scholiast meaneth that euery Citie shoulde haue his Pastor in the Isle of Creta and that Titus shoulde gouerne them as Byshop not as hauyng the whole Titus Archbyshop and sole charge of euery seuerall towne or Citie whych maye euidently appeare to be true by these wordes of Theodoret placed in the same author Titus was a notable Diseiple of Paul but was ordeyned Bishop of Creta whych was a very large Isle Theodoret. in arg Epist. Tit. apud Scholiast it was permitted cōmitted vnto him that he might ordeine 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Byshops that were vnder hym Wherby it may be gathered that euery Citie in Creta had a Byshop whyche had the seuerall charge and that Titus gouerned them as Archbyshop The lyke doth Chrysostome whom the Greeke Scholiast doth especially followe affirme of Timothie in 1. Tim. 5. vpon these wordes aduersus presbyterum c. Timotheo credita fuerat ecclesia imò gens ferè tota Asiatica The Churche yea almoste Chrysost. the whole people of Asia was committed to Timothie But what néede I vse manie wordes when Chrysostome hymselfe affirmeth the same directly of Titus 1. Idem ad Titum neque eius profectò illi c. Truely Paule woulde not haue committed the whole Isle to hym neyther woulde he haue commaunded those thyngs to be supplyed whyche were wanting for he sayth that thou myghtest correcte those thyngs whyche are wanting neither woulde he haue committed vnto him the Iudgemente of so manye Byshops if he had not trusted hym very well Chap. 3. the. 56. Diuision T. C. Page 87. Sect. 1. Nowe M. Doctor maye see by thys that Titus was not as he fansyeth the Archbyshop of all Crete but that he had one flocke wherevpon for the tyme he was there he attended and that where it is sayde he ordeyned Ministers it is nothyng else but that he was the chiefe and the moderator in the election of the ministers as I haue declared before by many examples And it is no maruell althoughe the reste graunted hym this preheunnence when he had both most excellent giftes and was a degree aboue the Pastors being an Euangelist Io. Whitgifte Thys I maye see that firste you haue no conscience in falsifying and corruptyng of authors Secondly that you speake contraryes euen in these fewe lynes for you saye that Titus had one flocke in Creta wherevpon he dyd attende for the tyme he T. C. contrarie to himselfe was there ▪ whiche muste néedes proue hym to be a Pastor and yet you afterwardes denye hym to be a Pastor affirming hym to be an Euangelist and you take the office of an Euangelist to be so distincte from the office of a Pastor that they may not méete together in one man Thirdly I sée that you confidentlye take vpon you to expounde Paules meanyng agaynste hys playne woordes and agaynste the Iudgemente of the olde interpreters and diuerse of the newe as I haue shewed before in the election of Ministers Besydes these I see nothing answered to this example of Titus Chap. 3. the. 57. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 72. Sect. 3. Timothie bare rule ouer all the other Ministers of the Churche Timothies authoritie ▪ of Ephesus for Paule saythe vnto hym 1. Timo. 5. aduersus presbyterum accusationem c. Agaynst a Minister receyue no accusation vnlesse there be two or three vvitnesses In which words Paul maketh him a Iudge ouer the rest of the Ministers T. C. Page 87. Sect. 2. Unto the place of Timothie where he wylleth hym not to admitte an accusation agaynste an Elder vnder two or three witnesses I answere as ▪ I haue done before to the place of Titus that is that as the ordination of the Pastors is attributed vnto ▪ Titus and Timothie bycause they gouerned and moderated that action and were the firste in it so also is the deposyng or other censures of them and that for as muche as he wryteth his Epistles vnto Timothie and Titus he telleth them howe they shoulde behaue them selues in theyr offyce and dothe not shut oute other from thys censure and Iudgemente And it is more agreeable to the inscription of the Epistles that he shoulde saye admitte not thou or ordeyne not thou wryting vnto one than if he shoulde saye ordeyne not ye or admitte not ye as if he shoulde write to manye for so shoulde neyther the endyng agree wyth the begynnyng nor y e myddest wyth them both And if thys be a good rule that bycause Paule byddeth Timothie and Titus to Iudge of the faultes of the pastors and to ordeyne Pastors therefore none else dyd but they then (*) A meeres ▪ uill whereas Saynte Paule byddeth Timothie that he shoulde commaunde and teache that godlynesse is profitable to all thyngs and admonisheth hym to be an example of the whole flocke by your reason he wyll haue no other of the Ministers of Ephesus or of the Isle of Creta to teache that doctrine or to be examples to their flockes and an hundreth suche thyngs in the Epistles of Timothie and Titus whyche althoughe they be there particularly directed vnto Timothie and Titus yet doe they agree and are common to them wyth all other Ministers yea sometymes vnto the whole flocke Io. Whitgifte You haue certeyne common shiftes to put of suche places as you can not answere among whiche thys is one that you vse in thys place But it wyll not serue beyng grounded neyther vppon authoritie nor reason These woordes of Saynte Paule in déede be not spoken to Timothie alone but to all other Byshops of lyke authoritie for that whiche is prescribed to Timothie is also prescribed to all other in the lyke function whyche argueth that thys authoritie gyuen to Timothie ouer all the Ministers of the Churche of Ephesus dothe perteyne also to all other Byshoppes ouer the Ministers of theyr seuerall Diecesse But as Saynte Paule in these Epistles wryteth onely to Byshoppes and Pastors so are the preceptes gyuen therein properly perteyning to the offyce of Byshops and Pastors and therefore not to be wrested to anye other And howe can the Papistes more grossely abuse the Scriptures in interpretyng them to serue their turne and to shifte of theyr authoritie alleaged agaynste them than you doe in thys and suche other places agaynste
as I thinke speaketh But nowe to my Lorde of Sarisburie his argument whiche is this that from The Bishops argument the whiche somewhat muste be taken and vnto the whiche somewhat muste be added is no perfect patterne but Apostles Euangelistes Prophets are taken away from the fourth to the Ephesians and Deacons Elders as you your selfe say must be added Ergo it is no perfect patterne neyther do you neyther can you answere this argument But I will come to your accustomed shiftes Chap. 4. the. 3. Diuision T. C. Pag. 91. Sect. 2. Afterwarde he sayth that neyther Bishop nor Elder are reckoned in that place The pastor is there reckoned vp and I haue shewed that the pastor and Bishop are all one and are but dyuers names to signifie one thing And as for those Elders whyche doe onely gouerne they are made mention of in other places and therefore the Bishop and Elder are there conteyned whych thing also M. Doctor graunteth Io. Whitgifte If the Bishop be conteyned vnder the Pastor why may not the Archbishop be so likewise but if the Elders which you say do only gouerne be not there conteyned and yet a necessarie function in the Church as you thinke howe can it then be a perfecte platforme or why may not Archbishops Archdeacons be also necessarie thoughe they be not in that place named but you say that those Elders be in other places mentioned That is no answere to this place but a reason rather to proue it no perfect patterne M. Doctor graunteth a Bishop to be conteyned vnder the name of a pastor But he doth not graunt that your Elder is so or euery Presbyter to whome the ministerie of the worde of God and sacraments is committed to be a Pastor Chap. 4. the. 4. Diuision T. C. Page 91. Sect. 3. After that he sayth there is no Catechista if there be a pastor there is one which bothe can and ought to instruct the youth neyther (*) What say you to the Doctor dothe it perteyne to any other in the church and publikely to teache the youth in the rudiments of religion than vnto the pastor howsoeuer in some tymes and places they haue made a seuerall offyce of it Io. Whitgifte If a pastor and a Catechiste maye be in one why may not a Bishop and a gouernour Catechist and pastor distinguished also be one and so your Elders shut out of the doores But you may learne in auncient writers that the office of a Catechiste was necessarie in the Churche and distincte from the Pastor Origene was a Catechist in the Churche of Alexandria as Eusebius in his sixte booke dothe in sundrie places declare and yet he was not then a Pastor Chap. 4. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Pag. 92. Sect. 1. And where he sayth that there is neyther Deacon nor Reader mentioned for the Deacon I haue answered that S. Paule speaketh there onely of those functions which are occupied both in teaching and gouerning the Churches and therefore there was no place there to speake of a Deacon and as for the Reader it is no suche office in the Churche whiche the minister maye not doe (*) Where haue you scri ture for this geare And if eyther he haue not leasure or hys strength and voyce wyll not serue hym fyrst to reade some long tyme and afterwarde to preache it is an easy matter to appoynt some of the Elders or Deacons or some other graue man in the Church to that purpose as it hath beene practised in the Churches in tymes past is in the Churches reformed in our dayes without making any newe order or offyce of the ministerie Io. Whitgifte This distinction helpeth not héere for if you saye the offices or names of Deacons be lefte out in this place bicause Sainct Paule speaketh not of suche offices as be occupied onely in gouernment first I answere that the same maye be sayde of Archebisho s and Archedeacons who haue those names onely in the respecte of gouernment Secondly I tell you that the office of a Deacon is also to preache as is Tract 14. hereafter proued And last of all that the office of a Deacon especially as you restrayne it is neyther office nor name of gouernment but of simple and absolute ministerie and seruice Your starting holes will not hyde you and this argument of the Bishop will not he answered You haue sayde nothing to proue this place to be a perfecte paterne of all ecclesiasticall functions neyther doe you saye any thing for omitting the names of Bishop Deacon Presbyter c. but we may saye the same for the names of Archebishop Archedeacon c. The Reader hath béene counted a necessarie office in the Churche and is of great antiquitie and I knowe that the Deacon or any other graue person vpon occasion maye be admitted to reade But I pray you where do you finde any such thing in the scripture T. C. taketh greater libertie to himselfe than he will allowe to whole churches especially of those whiche you call Elders which be in no degrée of the ministerie for it is great presumption for you to appoynt any suche office in the Churche not hauing your warrant in Gods worde séeing you finde suche faulte with whole Churches for allowing offices vsed in the best time of the Churche confirmed by the best Councels and approued by all auncient writers bicause their names be not expressed in the scripture and séeing also that you your selfe a little before sayde that onely the pastor ought publikely in the Churche to teache the youth and not a Catechist and I take publyke reading in the Churche to be as solemne a matter as Catechising the youthe But you haue libertie to coyne what order you lyste without eyther Scripture or anye other approued wryter we muste make you another Pythagoras In times past it was a peculiar office and he that had it was called Lector and therefore you can not saye as it hathe beene practised in times past excepte you wyll confesse that name and office of Lector and so also graunte some name and office profitable for the Churche to be omitted in the fourthe Chapter to the Ephesians Chap. 4. the. 6. Diuision T. C. Page 92. Sect. 1. 2. Where he sayth that by this reason we should haue no Churches pulpits scholes nor vniuersities it is first easily answered that S. Paule speaketh not in the. 4. to the Ephesians of all thinges necessarie for the Church but only of all necessarie ecclesiasticall functions which do both teache and gouerne in the Churche and then I haue already shewed that there were both Churches and pulpits As for scholes and Uniuersities it is sufficient (*) I graunt but not out of the. 4. to the Ephe. commaundement of them in that it is commanded that both the Magistrates and pastours should be learned for he that commaundeth that they should be learned commaundeth those things those meanes wherby they
of one man ouer sundry Churches yea ouer many shyres Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 116. Sect. 1. 2. I haue proued before in my answere to your 13. 14. reason that this lordship of one man as you terme it but in deede lawfull iurisdiction ouer sundry churches was not the inuentiō of any Pope but of great antiquitie in the church of Christ allowed by that famous Councell of Nice practised since of most godly and learned fathers In the. 9. Canon Concil Antioch it is thus written Per singulas regiones Episcopos conuenit nosse Metropolitanum Episcopum solicitudinem totius prouinciae gerere propter quod ad Metropolim omnes vndique qui negotia videntur habere concurrant vndè placuit um bonore praecellere nibil amplius praeter eum caeteros Episcopos agere secundùm antiquam à patribus nostris regulam constitutam nisi ea tantùm quae ad suam Dioecesim pertinent c. It behoueth the Bishops in euery countrie to knovve their Metropolitane Bishop to haue care ouer the vvhole prouince and therfore all such as haue any businesse muste come to theyr Metropolitane Citie vvherefore it pleaseth this Councell that he also excell in honour and that the other Bishops do nothing vvithout him according to the auncient rule prescribed by our forefathers but those things onely vvhich perteyne to his ovvne diocesse c. This Councell was about the yeare of our Lord. 345. T. C. Pag. 99. Sect. 4. 5. In the. 116. page for the authoritie of the Archbishop is alleaged the. 9. Canon of the councell of Antioche which I haue before alleaged to proue how farre different the authoritie of the Metropolitane in those tymes was from that which is now For there the Coūcel sheweth that euery Bishop in his diocesse hath the ordering of all the matters within the circuite thereof therefore the meaning of the Councell to be that if there be any affayres that touch the whole Church in any lande that the Bishops should do nothing without making the Metropolitane priuie as also the Metropolitane might do nothing without making the other Bishops a Counsell of that which he attempted which M. Doctor doth cleane leaue out And if this authoritie which the Councell giueth to the Metropolitane being nothing so excessiue as the authoritie of our Metropolitanes now had not bene ouer much or had bene iustifiable what needed men father this Canon which was ordeyned in this Councell of the Apostles for the seeking falsely of the name of the Apostles to giue credite vnto this Canon doth carie with it a note of euill and of shame which they would haue couered as it were with the garment of the Apostles authoritie Io. Whitgifte There is no Canon that maketh more directly against you than this doth all the shifts that you haue to auoyde it I haue answered before There is as great authoritie giuen to the Metropolitane in that Canon as now he eyther vseth or requireth For euery Bishop obseruing the lawes of the realme and of the Church hath the ordering of al matters within his diocesse and the Metropolitane in this Church may attempt no newe thing or any matter of great importance not already by lawe established though he haue the consent of all the Bishops so farre is he from hauing authoritie to do any such thing without theyr consent That Canon of the Apostles is repeated confirmed in this Councell as diuerse Canons of the Councell of Nice are in like maner repeated and confirmed by diuerse Councels following This is so farre from discrediting that Canon with wise men that it rather addeth great authoritie vnto it but you kéepe your olde wonte in discrediting the authoritie which you cannot answere Chap. 6. the. 6. Diuision Admonition Now then if you will restore the Church to his auncient officers this you must do In stead of an Archbishop or Lorde byshop you must make (x) 2. Cor. 1 7. Colos. 1. 1. equalitie of ministers Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 123. I haue proued before that aswell the name as office of an Archbishop is both most auncient and also most necessarie in the Church of Christ that this equalitie of ministers which you require is both flatly against the scriptures al auncient authoritie of councels and learned men the example of all Churches euen frō Christes time as more plainly appeareth by these wordes of M. Bucer in his booke De egno Christi Iam ex perpetua Ecclesiarum obseruatione ab ipsis iam Apostolis videmus visum ucer hoc esse spiritui sancto vt inter Presbyteros quibus Ecclesiarum procuratio potissimùm est commissa vnus Ecclesiarum totius sacri ministerij curam gerat singularem eaque cura solicitudine cunctis praeeat alijs Qua de causa Episcopi nomen huiusmodi summis Ecclesiarum curatoribus est peculiariter attributum c. Novve vve see by the perpetuall obseruation of the Churches euen from the Apostles themselues that it hath pleased the holy ghost that amongst the ministers to vvhom the gouernment of the Church especially is cōmitted one should haue the chiefe care both of the Churches and of the vvhole ministerie and that he should go before all other in that care and diligence for the vvhich cause the name of a Bishop is peculiarly giuen to such chiefe gouernours of Churches c. Furthermore I haue declared that it engendreth schismes factions contentions in the Churche and bringeth in a meere confusion and is a branche of Anabaptisme T. C. Pag. 99. Sect. 6. 7. nd in the 〈◊〉 twētie three page to that which M. Bucer sayth y t in the Churches there hath bene one which hath bene 〈◊〉 ouer the rest of the Ministers if he meane one chiefe in euery particular Church 〈◊〉 one chiefe ouer the Ministers of diuerse Churches meeting at one Synode and 〈◊〉 for the 〈◊〉 and for suche respectes as I haue before shewed then I am of that mynde which he is and if he meane any other chiefe or after any other sorte I denie that any such chiefe was from the Apostles times or that any such 〈◊〉 pleaseth the holy Ghost wherof I haue before shewed the 〈◊〉 And whereas M. Bucer seenieth to allowe that the name of a Bishop whiche the holy Ghost expressely gyueth to all the Ministers of the worde indifferently was appropriated to certayne chiefe gouernors of the Church I haue before shewed by diuerse reasons howe that was not done without great presumption and manifest daunger and in the ende great hurt to the Church Io. Whitgifte M. Bucers wordes are plaine there is no cause why you shoulde make such I s but onely that you may be thought able to say some thing howe contrary to truth and reason soeuer it be Your owne bare deniall of M. Bucers iudgement will weigh little with any wyse or learned man considering what difference there is betwixte your knowledge and his the triall
y ◠same also was vnder the Bishop of the citie Quod si amplior erat ager qui sub eius episcopatu erat quà m vt sufficere omnibus episcopi munijs vbique possit per ipsum agrum designabantur certis locis presbyteri qui in minoribùs negotijs eius vices obirent eos vocabant borepiscopos quòd per ipsam prouinciam episcopum representabant M. Beza lib. conf cap. 7 calleth the names of Archbishops Bishops c. Holie names for thus he sayth That Pastors in proces of tyme were distinct into Metropolitanes Bishops and those whome they nowe call Curates that is such as be appoynted to euery Parishe was not in the respect of the ministerie of the worde but rather in respecte of iurisdiction and discipline Therfore concerning the office of preaching the word and administring the Sacramentes there is no difference betwixte Archebishops Bishops and Curates for all are bounde to feede their flocke with the same breade and therefore by one common name in the Scriptures they bee called Pastours and Bishops But what impudencie is there in those men meaning the Papistes to vse those holie names and therfore to glorie of the succession of the Apostles and true Bishops In the same chapter he maketh two kynds of degrées vsed in the Papistical Churche the one vnknowne to the Apostles to the primitine church the other taken out of the word of God and from the primitiue Church In this second order he placeth Archebishops Curates Can ns Seniors or Ministers Archedeacons Deanes Subdeacons Clearkes But what should I stand longer in this matter There is not one writer of credit y t denieth this superioritie to haue bin always among the clergie and these degrées to come euen from the best tyme of the Church since the Apostles and so be both most auncient and generall Wherfore I can not but compt suche as denie so manifest a truthe eyther vnlearned and vnskilful persons or else verie wranglers and men desirous of contention A briefe comparison betvvixt the Bishops of our tyme and the Bishops of the primitiue Churche Chap. 8 I Knowe that comparisons be odious neither would I vse them at this tyme but that I am thervnto as it wer compelled by the vncharitable dealing of T. C. who by comparing the Bishops of our time with the Bishops in the olde Churche hath soughte by that meanes to disgrace them if it were possible I may peraduenture in this point sée me to some to flatter but the true iudgement therof I leaue to him that knoweth the secretes of the heart In the meane tyme I will affirme nothing which is not euident to all those that be learned diuines and not ouer ruled with affection My compar ion shal consist in these thrée points Truthe of doctrine Honestie of lise and right vse of externall things Touching the fyrst that is truth of doctrine I shall not néed much to labour For I think T. C. and his adherents wil not denie but that the doctrin taught professed by our Bishops at this day is much more perfect and sounder than it commonly was in any age after the Apostles time For the most part of the auncientest Bishops were deceyued with that grosse opinion of a thousande yeares after the resurrection wherein Euse. lib. 3. cap. 39. 35. the kingdome of Christe should here remaine vpon earth The fautors whereof were called M llenarij Papias who liued in Polycarpus and Ignatius his tyme béeing Bishop of erusalem was the first author of this errour and almost all the moste auncient fat ers were infected with the same Cyprian and the whole Councel of Carthage erred in rebaptisatiō Cyprian himself To. con 1. Lib. epi. 2. ep 3. also was greatly ouerseene in making it a matter so necessarie in the celebration of the Lords Supper to haue water mingled with wyne which was no doubt at y ◠tyme cōmon to moe than to him but the other opinion which he confuteth of vsyng water only is more absurd and yet it had at that tyme patrones among the Bishops Howe greatly were almost all the Bishops learned writers of the greke church yea and the Latines also for the most part spotted with doctrines of freewill of merites of inuocation of Sainctes suche lyke Surely you are not able to recken in any age since the Apostles tyme any companie of Bishops that taught helde so sound perfect doctrine in all poynts as the Bishops of England do at this tyme. If you speake of Ceremonies of the syncere administration of the sacraments you shall finde the like difference for compare the cerenionies that Tertullian sapet lib. decoro mil. then to be vsed in the Churche about the Sacraments and otherwise or those that Basile reherseth Lib. de Sancto spi. or suche as we may reade to haue bin in S. Augustins tyme with those that we nowe reteine in this Churche and you can not but acknowledge that therin we are come to a far greater perfection I meane not to stande in particulars I thinke T. C. and his companions wil not contende with me in this poynt for if they doe it is but to maynteyncontention Seing then that in the truthe of doctrine which is the chief and principall point oure Bishops be not only comparable with the olde Bishops but in many degrées to be preferred before them we thinke there is tootoo great iniurie done vnto them and to this doctrine whiche they professe when as they are so odiously compared and so contemptuously intreated by T. C. and his Colleags 2 Touching honestie of life which is the second point I wil not say much I do not think but that therin they may be compared with the old Bishops also and in some points preferred euery age hath some imperfectiōs in it and the best men are most subiect to the slanderous tong Great contention ther was among the Bishops in the Councell of Nice insomuch that euen in the presence of the Emperour they ceased not to libell one against an other What bitternesse and cursing was there betwixt Epiphanius and Chrysostome what affectionate dealyng of Theophilus agaynste the same Chrysostome what iarring betwixt Hierome and Augustine But I wil not prosecute this Men be they neuer so godly yet they be men the cōm n sorte of people when they waxe wearie of the worde of God truely preached then doe they begin to depraue the true and chiefe ministers of the same 3 For the third poynt that is the vse of external things if the ishops nowe haue more land liuing than Bishops had then it is the blessing of God vpon his church and it is commodious for the state and time If any man abuse himself therin let him be reformed let not his fault be made a pretence to cloke a minde desirous to spoyle I sée not how those lands and liuings can be imployed to more bene ite of y e churche cōmoditie of the
not be ignorant that the whole drifte of the Cōmunion booke is to moue The intent of the booke is to moue all men to communicate all men to ofte communicating and that togither as it manifestly appeareth in the first exhortation in the booke prescribed to be read when the Curate shall sée the people negligent in comming to the Communion the which if you had well peruse you would haue as I think cutte off much of this talke If the booke should appoynt that thrée or foure should communicate togither no more or if it did not allow that Communion best wherein most of the Church doe participate then were your reasoning to some ende but séeing that it is appoynted that there shoulde not be fewer than thrée or foure to the ende that it might be a Communion and haue no similitude with the Papisticall Masse there is no cause why you should take this paynes And surely he that shal compare that exhortation in the booke with this discourse of yours it will be no harde matter for him to iudge how much more pithily and effectually Thre or foure a sufficient number if other will not communicate this matter is there handled than it is here by you But that thrée or foure shoulde be a sufficient number to communicate if other will not there is good cause for séeing the holy Sacrament is a Seale and confirmation of Gods promises and an effectuall applying of the death and passion of Christ vnto vs and therefore a singular comfort and reliefe to the afflicted conscience and minde touched with the féeling Thre or foure a cōgregation Math. 18. of sinne why shoulde those that be desirous of it béeing a congregation as thrée or foure is according to the saying of Christ where two or three be gathered togither in my name c. be debarred from their Godly desire and that singular comfort for the carelesnesse securitie negligence or lacke of such féeling of others Shall none communicate bycause all will not Or shall not thrée or foure because the rest refuse Or is it lacke of loue towardes our neighbour or any token thereof if we resort to the Lordes table when other will not Where learne you that The place of S. Paule 1. Cor. 11. is not aptly applyed For the Apostle in that place reproueth onely such as contemptuously or contentiously did separate themselues from other as well in the publike feastes called Loue feastes and then vsed in the Church as in the Supper of the Lorde But he rather meaneth of the first than of the Martyr in 1. Cor. 11. latter and therfore sayth M. Martyr vpon that place The Supper is here called priuate eyther bycause some did chalenge to themselues priuately that whiche belonged to all or else bicause euerie one after the receyuing of the holy mysteries did take againe to himselfe those things which he had offered at the Lordes table and made that his owne whiche by right belonged to all And againe he sayth that the Corinthians be there reproued Bicause they pampered their bellie and contemned their brethren I tolde you before what M. Caluine thought of this place it can in no respect tende to the disallowing of any order appoynted in the booke of common prayer bicause no man is secluded from the Communion that will come and those that come when other men will not do it not of contempt or of contention but of conscience and pietie Moreouer wée haue no such banquettes or feastes eyther before or after the Communion as the Corinthians had and therefore in that respect there can be no suche abuse as the Apostle there reproueth Chap. 6. the. 8. Diuision Admonition Sixthly in this booke three or foure are allowed for a fit number to receyue the Communion and the Priest alone togither with one more or with the sicke man alone may in tyme of necessitie that is when there is any common plague or in tyme of other visitation minister it to the sicke man and if he require it it may not be denyed This is not I am sure lyke in effect to a priuate Masse that Scripture (f) Mat. 26. 27 Mar. 14. 23 drinke ye all of this maketh not agaynst this and priuate Communion is not agaynst the Scriptures Ansvvere to the Adm onition Pag. 185. Sect. 1. How vntruly these men charge the Church with priuate Communions I haue shewed before The place of scripture here alledged to proue that three or foure be not a sufficient number to communicate No number determined to be at the Cōmunion is this drinke ye all of this Mat. 26. Mark 14. which may as well be applyed to proue that ten twentie fortie is no sufficient number I know not what your meaning is except you thinke no number sufficient vnlesse al do communicate togither bicause Christ said drink ye all of this This text proueth that all ought to be partakers of the Lordes Cuppe but it doth not determine any certaine number of Communicants I knowe there be some of the olde fathers as Basilius Basill would haue xii at the least Magnus which would not haue fewer Communicants than xii But of the number of Communicants there is nothing determined in Scripture neither is it materiall so that there be a number that it may be a Communion T. C. Pag. 117. Sect. 1. These things being considered the reason which the Admonition vseth in the. 185. page where this matter is spoken of which is drink you al of this is not so ridiculous as M. doctor maketh it For although it do neyther proue that 12. or 20. or any other definite number must of necessitie receyue yet it proueth that as all they which were present did communicate so as many as in the Church are fit to receyue the Sacraments or may conuetently receyue them togither should follow that example in celebrating the supper togither Io. Whitgifte The booke of common prayer doth greatly commend and like the receyning of the whole Church togither but if that can not be obteyned as it cannot and they will not haue men compelled vnto it it secludeth not those that be well disposed so they be a competent number And the booke doth exhort those to depart which do not communicate with a warning from whence they depart so that you may well vnderstand that the meaning of the Booke is that all that be present should communicate Neither can this place of scripture be drawne to improue the decrée of y e Church therin For Christ had 70. other disciples and his mother with diuers other which followed him that were not present at that Supper as no doubt they should haue béene if by that example he had ment to haue made a law that there may be no Cōmunion vnlesse the whole congregation of euery particular Church do communicate togither Chap. 6. the. 9. Diuision T. C. Pag. 117. Sect. 1. And it is probably to be thought that if our Sauiour
Christ had not beene restreyned by the lawe of God touching the Passeouer vnto his owne familie being twelue and therefore a competent number to eare vp a lambe by themselues that he would haue celebrated his supper not only amongst his xii disciples which (*) They were made Apostles before and so called afterward he made Apostles but also amongst other of his disciples professors of his doctrine But forsomuch as it was meete that he should celebrate his supper there and then where and when he did celebrate his Passouer for the cause before by me alledged it pleased him to keepe his first Supper with twelue onely for that the law of Communication vnto the Passeouer which was ioyned with the supper woulde not admit any greater number of Communicants they being sufficient and enough to eate vp the passeouer Io. Whitgifte This is onely a coniecture but it ouerthroweth your argument for by your saying Christ had his twelue Apostles there at Supper bycause the lawe touching the Passcouer did bind him thereunto not bicause he would signifie that there should be no Communion except the whole Church do communicate The disciples were made Apostles before the institution of the Supper and were so called as it is euident Math. 10. Mark 3. and therefore I maruell what you meane Math. 10. Marke 3. in saying which afterwardes he made Apostles Chap. 6. the. 10. Diuision T. C. Pag. 117. Sect. 2. And althoughe it be cleare and plaine that when it is sayde drinke ye all of this and ta ie one for another these sayings are ment of that particular congregation or assemblie whiche assemble themselues togither to be taught by one mouth of the Minister yet I haue therefore put this caution of as much as may be possible least any man shoulde cauill as though I woulde haue no Communion vntill all the godly through the world should meete togither Likewise I haue put this caution as much as may be conueniently for although it be possible that any particular Church may communicate at one table in one day and togither yet may the same be inconuenient for diuerse causes As if the number shoulde be verie great so that to haue them all communicate togither it would require such a long time as the tary ng out of the whole action would hazard eyther the life or at least the health of dyuerse there Againe forasmuch as other some being at the Church it is meete that other shoulde be at home vpon occasion of infantes and suche lyke things as require the presence of some to tar e at home In these cases and suche lyke the inconueniences do deliuer vs from the gilt of vncharitablenesse and forsaking the felowship of the Church for that we doe not here seuer onr selues but are by good and iust causes seuered whiche gilt we shall neuer escape if besydes such necessarie causes we pretende those that are not or hauing not so much as a pretence yet notwithstanding separate our selues as the dayly practise through the Church doth shewe Io. Whitgifte If you be content to admit so many cautions and exceptions then is the question soone decyded and you make it no such commaundement but that vpon occasion it may be altered In déede the wordes of Christ do signifie that the cup of the Supper and the whole Supper is common to all as well of the laytie as we terme them as of the clergie but it doth not prescribe what number shall be present at euery seuerall Communion I doe not excuse those that withdrawe themselues from that Supper except it be vpon necessarie and iust occasion but I denie that the negligence or lawfull occasion of some ought to hinder or stay other from communicating this you should haue proued but you do not and your cautions and exceptions which I verie well allowe declare the contrarie Chap. 6. the. 11. Diuision T. C. Page 117. Sect. 3. But it may be obiected that in this poynt the booke of common prayer is not in fault whiche doth not onely not forbid that all the Church shoulde receyue togither but also by a good and godly exhortation moueth those that be present that they shoulde not depart but communicate altogither It is true that it doth not forbid and that there is godly exhortation for that purpose but that I say is not enough for neyther shoulde it suffer that three or foure shoulde haue a Communion by themselues so many being in the Church meete to receyue and to whome the Supper of the Lord doth of lyke right apperteyne and it ought to prouide that those which woulde withdrawe themselues should be by ecclesiasticall discipline at all tymes and now also vnder a godly Prince by ciuill punishment (*) This is clean contrarie to the Admonition pag. 109. brought to communicate with their brethren And this is the lawe of God and this is nowe and hath bene heretofore the practise of Churches reformed All men vnderstande that the Passeouer was a fygure of the Lordes Supper and that there shoulde be as straight bondes to binde men to celebrate the remembrance of our spirituall deliuerance as there was to remember the deliuerance out of Egypt But whosoeuer did not then communicate with the rest at that time when the Passeouer was eaten was excommunicated as it may appeare in the Numbers Num. 9. where he sayth that whosoeuer did not communicate being cleane (*) This is not excommunication but putting to death his soule should be cut of from amongst the people of God therefore this neglect or contempt rather of the Lordes Supper ought to be punished with no lesse punishment especially when as after the Church hath proceeded in that order which our Sauiour Christ appoynteth of admonishing they be not sorie for their fault and promise amendment And that this was the custome of the Churches it may appeare by Conc. Apo. Can. 9. the. 9. of those Cannons which are fathered of the Apostles where it is decreed that all the faythful that entred into the congregation and heard the Scriptures read and did not tarie out the prayers and the holy Communion should be as those which were cause s of disorders in the Church separated from the Church or as it is translated of an other depriued of the Communion Also in the councell of Braccara it was decreed that if any entring into the Church of God heard the Scriptures Con. 2. Bracca cap. 83. om 2. and afterwarde of wantonnesse or losenesse withdrew himselfe from the Communion of the Sacrament and so brake the rule of discipline in the reuerend Sacraments should be put out of the church till such time as he had by good frutes declared his repentance Io. Whitgifte I do not much disagrée from this sauing that I sée no reason that thrée or foure should be debarred from so comfortable and fruteful a Sacrament either for the negligence or necessarie impediments of others except also your
seyng Esau himselfe receyued the signe of the couenant notwithstanding he was before reiected Rom. 9. And that his posteritie were not so farre estraunged from the people of God as those that neuer were in the Churche it may appeare by that which is written in Deutronomie where the Israelites are willed to acknowledge them for their Deut. 23. vers 7. 8. The papistes ly e o the 〈◊〉 v der Ieroboani c. Brethren and to admitte their children in the thirde Generation into the congregation of the Lorde And yet are not the Papistes like vnto Ismael and Esau but rather the same with the Israelites vnder Ieroboam c. for as they professed the lawe of Moses had circumcision and were not in all poyntes straunge from the fayth of the Iewes but yet ioyned therevnto Idolatrie and the false worshipping of God euen so the Papistes pretende the lawe of God vse the Sacramentes professe Christianitie and are not in all poyntes straunge from Christian fayth but yet haue corrupted the same with idolatrous worshipping and diuerse other kindes of superstition and errours Therefore sayeth M. Beza very well in the wordes before recited Beza Epist. 10. Papismus est Ecclesiae Christianae aberratio Papisme is the erring of the Christian Churche And Ecclesia est velut immersa in Papatu quod de Turcis dici nullo modo potest qui nunquà m Cbristo nomen dederunt the Churche is as it were couered or drowned in Papisme whiche can by no meanes be sayde of Turkes whiche neuer gaue their names to Christe or professed Christianitie Wherefore if you had made a right comparison you should not haue compared them to Ismaell and Esau but to the reuolting Israelites as M. Martyr dothe saying thus expresly Quales olim Israelitae c. Such are the Martyr in 3. cap. 1. Reg. Papistes at this day if they be compared with the professours of the Gospell as were the Israelites in respect of the Iewes But full well you knewe that in so doing your errour would soone haue bene espied for though the Israelites were separated from the true Churche yet were not their children cut of from the couenaunt or debarred from the signe thereof The poyson which you say we nowe see and that lieth hid vnder these woordes is The poyson that is hidde in the Repliers doctrine the debarring of children from Baptisme for their parentes offences beyng baptised and rebaptisation Both which you do in more playne manner affirme than the Admonition doth and therefore for triacle to cure these venemous diseases I sende you to the learned workes of S. August Contra epist. Parmeniani de Baptis contra Donatistas of M. Bullinger Zuinglius Caluine and others which haue written against these poysoned poynts of the Anabaptistes and Donatistes ¶ Of the Seigniorie or gouernment by Seniors Tract 17. VVhether there vvere such as the Admonition calleth Seniors in euery Congregation Chap. 1. the. 1. Diuision T. C. Pag. 138. Sect. 1. As though M. Doctor were at vtter defiaunce with all good order and methode of writing Of Seniors that which was giuen him orderly by the Admonition he hath turned vpsidedowne For where the Admonition speaketh first of the Elders then of that which is annexed vnto them which is the discipline whereof excommunication is a part considering that the subiect is in nature before that which is annexed vnto it M. Doctor hath turned it cleane cōtrary and first speaketh of excommunication and then of the Elders I will therfore that the reader may the easelier vnderstand that which is sayd folow the order of the Admonition and first of all speake of the Elders or Seniors which ought to be in the Churche and in speaking of them I muste call to remembrance that diuision which I made mention on before that is of those which haue care and gouerne the whole congregation some there be which do bothe teach the worde and gouerne also some which do not teache but onely gouerne and be ayders in the gouernment vnto those which do teache This diuision is moste manifestly set forth in the Epistle vnto Timothe where he sayeth the Elders 1. Tim. 5. which rule well are worthy of double honour and especially those whiche labour in the worde and doctrine where he maketh by playne and expresse wordes two sortes of Elders the one whiche doth both gouerne and teache the other which gouerneth onely These therefore are the Seniors which are meant whose office is in helping the Pastor or Bishop in the gouernment of that particular Churche where they be placed Pastors and Elders Io. Whitgifte It is no rare matter in handling any thing first to entreate of that which is natura posterius and we sée it commonly so vsed by Logicians who firste treate of that parte which is called Iudicium then of the other which is called Inuentio notwithstanding Inuentio in nature is before Iudicium But I will not spende incke and paper in answering so vayne a cauillation The truth is that I in mine Answere follow the order of the Admonition For I proue that it was not the office of those Seniors to gouerne the Church c. bycause they had nothing to do with excōmunication being the chiefest discipline in the Church seing the execution therof was committed to the Minister of the worde onely So that I first take away authoritie frō their Seniors then answere the places which they abuse for the establishing of their authoritie My woordes be these What Scripture haue you to proue that such Seniors as you meane and Deacons had any thing to do in Ecclesiasticall discipline but all this is from the purpose Your diuision of Seniors though I know that it hath learned Patrones yet do I not vnderstande howe it agreeth with the woorde of God for if we consider the writinges of the Apostles it will euidently appeare that Presbyter is vsually taken for Episcopus or Minister or Pastor Presbyter vsually taken for a minister 1. Pet. 5. Act. 20. Tit. 1. as 1. Pet. 5. Presbyteros qui inter vos sunt bortor qui sum ipse Presbyter c. pascite c. The Elders which are among you I besech which am my selfe also an Elder c Feede the the flocke c. And in the Act. S. Paule calleth the same men Seniors and Bishops and by Seniors meaneth none other than Bishops and Pastors as it is euident in that place Likewise ad Titum 1. he sayeth that Titus was lefte at Creta vt constituat opidatim presbyteros That he should appoynt Elders in euery citie And declaring what qualities they ought to haue he addeth Oportet Episcopum immunem esse à crimine c. A Bishop must be vnreproueable c. Whereby it is manifest that he taketh them bothe for one The onely place that hath any shewe for the proofe of your distinction is that Two kindes of Presbyteri 1. Tim. 5. 1. Tim. 5. Presbyteri
beyond all mē in saucinesse neither bring they any thing with thē from home but a vayne intollerable contempt of all good men neyther can they abide to be corrected by any admonition of others M. Caluine speaking of the gouernment of the Church Instit. Cap. 8. Sect. 120. sayeth thus Scimus politiam pro varietate temporū recipere imo exigere varias mutationes VVe know that the pollicie of the Church doth receiue nay rather doth require diuerse alterations Caluine Beza M. Beza likewise Lib. confess Cap. 5. Sect. 17 is of the same minde touching the gouernmēt of the Churche There was another cause of the Ecclesiasticall assemblies that they might ordeyne canons of Ecclesiasticall discipline and that I may cōprehende many things in few wordes that they might appoynt ecclesiasticall policie for the diuerse circūstances of times places and persones For it is necessarie all thinges should be donne orderly in the house of God of the vvhich order there is one generall reason to be taken out of the worde of God but not one and the same forme agreable to all circūstances And Section 32. speaking of this Seigniorie he sheweth that it was necessarie in the Churche whilest there was no Christian magistrate For so he writeth But there Idem were Elders chosen by suffrages or at least by the approbation of the whole cōpanie as it is very euident out of Ambrose which complayneth that certayne men had transferred this authoritie to themselues and ut of Cyprian likewise by whom we may also vnderstand that the Bishop did rule ouer the colledge of Elders not that he should there reygne but that by their cōsent he might rule the Policie of the church especially for so much as at that time the Churches of Affrica were not helped of the Magistrate but were rather cruelly vexed of them And Sect. 35. speaking generally of the gouernment of the Churche he sayeth Neyther must we simply looke what was done of the Apostles in the Gouernment Idem of the church seyng there are most diuerse circumstances and therfore vvithout preposterous zeale all thinges canot in all places and times be called to one and the same forme but rather the end and inuariable purpose of them must be looked vnto and that manner and forme of doing things is to be chosen which doth directly tende therevnto This is the iudgement of these learned men neyther do I know any that thinketh the contrarie except such as make poste haste to that braunch of Anabaptisme Sixtly either we must admitte another forme now of gouerning the Church than 6. The iurisdietion of the christian magistrate implieth a chāge of the firste kinde of gouernment was in the Apostles time or els we must seclude the Christian magistrate from all authoritie in Ecclesiasticall matters attribute no more to him therein than was attributed to Nero in the Apostles time for in those dayes there was no Christian Prince to gouerne the church But Christian Princes haue must haue y e chief care gouernment of the Church next vnder God Ergo the same forme of gouernment cannot be now nor ought to be that was in the Apostles time Thus it is euident that the grounde whereof T. C. hath buylded his whole booke is a false ground contrarie to the Scriptures the practise of the Church the opinions The grounde of the Replie of learned men and the lawfull and iust authoritie of christian Princes and therefore the building is ruinous and cannot stande ¶ Of certayne matters concerning discipline in the Churche Tract 18. Of Excommunication and in vvhom the execution thereof doth consist Chap. 1. the. 1. Diuision Admonition Let vs come now to the third part which concerneth ecclesiasticall discipline the officers that haue to deale in this charge are chiefly three Ministers Preachers or Pastours of wheme before Seniors or Elders and Deacons Concerning Seniors not only their office but their name also is out of this English Church vtterly remoued Their office was to (q) Act. 14. 4. 1. Cor. 1 28. gouerne the churche with the reste of the Ministers to consulte to admonish to correcte and to order all things apperteyning to the state of the congregation Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 112. Sect. 3. What Scripture haue you to proue that such Seniors as you meane Deacons had any thing to do in Ecclesiasticall discipline I thinke the only discipline that we haue in the whole new testamēt except you will make admonition exhortation a part of it is Excōmunication and the execution of that is only committed to the ministers of the worde Math. 16. Iohn 20. Examples hereof wee haue Onely 〈◊〉 misters may excōmunicate ▪ 1. Cor. 5. 1. Tim. 1. ad Titum 3. T. C. Pag. 146. Sect. 2. Now I returne back againe to excommunication which M. Doctor thinketh to be y e only discipline in the church but he should vnderstande that beside y ◠part of priuate discipline which is ordinarily daily to be exercised by euery one of y e pastors elders as admonition reprehension there are thre principal partes which are exercised of thē ioyntly together wherof the first is the election or choise the abdication or putting out of ecclesiastical officers The seconde is in excommunication of the stubborne or absolution of the repentant The thirde is the decision of all such matters as doe rise in the church either touching corrupt manners or peruerse doctrine Io. Whitgifte I speake of y e publike discipline of y e church not of priuate admonition reprehension which may be called by y e name of Discipline but neither are they properly nor vsually so called except you wil also say y e publike preaching reading of y e scriptures is discipline these be things annexed to discipline but vnproperly termed by y e name Wherin discipline cōsisteth of discipline Your partition of discipline into those three parts in my poore iudgemēt is very vnskilful for discipline cōsisteth in punishing correcting of vice neither yet is the deciding of controuersies in matters doubtfull properly called discipline for discipline is exercised in punishing correcting y e persons not decioing y e causes Wherfore I thinke you haue forgottē your self in steade of y e part haue deuided y e whole that is you haue made a diuision of gouernment wheras you tooke vpon you to deuide discipline which is but a part of ecclesiasticall pollicie or gouernment Reade the generall confession of y e Christian churches in Heluetia tell me what it differeth from any thing y e I haue said Call to your remēbrance that which your selfe Pag. 1. 4. li 9 haue spoken pag. 14. where you call other censures of the church but forerunners to excommunication but this is a contention only about words therfore inough is said of it Chap. 1. the. 2. Diuision T. C. Pag. 146. Sect. 3. As touching the
Pag. 152. Sect. 2. And whereas Master Doctor sayth that the office of the Deacons is not onely to prouide for the poore but also to preach and minister the Sacraments I haue shewed before that it both not apperteync vnto them to doe eyther the one or the other For the proofe whereof this place of the Romaines quoted by the Admonition is verie fitte and most proper For S. Paule speaketh there agaynst those which not contenting themselues with their owne vocations did breake into that which apperteyned vnto others as it the hande shoulde take vpon it the office of the eye or of some other member of the bodie and therefore Saint Paule doth as it were bounde and poynt the lymittes of euerie office in the Church and so placeth the Deacons office onely in the prouision for the poore This one thing I will adde to that matter that if the Apostles whiche had such excellent and passing gyftes did finde themselues preaching of the worde and attending to prayer not able to prouide for the poore but thought it necessarie to discharge themselues of that office to the ende they might doe the other effectually and frutefully he that shall doe both nowe must eyther do none well and profitably or else he must haue greater giftes than the Apostles had Io. Whitgifte I haue proued before manifestly that it perteyned to the office of a Deacon to Tract 14. preach and to minister the Sacrament of Baptisme and to helpe in other businesse perteyning to the Church I haue alledged both manifest examples out of the scripture to iustifie the same and the practise of the primitiue Church togither with the testimonies both of the auncient and late wryters and vndoubtedly you are dryuen to a great streight when you are inforced to vse this place of the. 12. to the Romaines to proue the contrary for though it were ment of Deacons yet doth it not proue in any respect your purpose neyther can you frame any argument of it to that ende Neither Steuen nor Philip when they being Deacons preached and the one ministred the Sacrament of Baptisme also did breake into that whiche apperteyned not vnto them being incident to their office when they be therevnto called The Apostles were occupied in planting Churches in going from place to place to spreade abrode the worde of God and therefore they coulde not so conueniently prouide for the posre but the Deacons hauing no such occasion of traveling and remouing from place to place might very well both preach the Gospell and prouide for the poore Neither can I conceiue any reason to the contrarie for I thinke they spent no greate tyme in turning ouer manie volumes to prouide for their Sermons bicause God gaue to them extraordinarie gyftes of knowledge vtterance and suche lyke necessarie for their function And if you speake of Deacons nowe I say vnto you that vnder a Christian Prince in the tyme of peace that part of their Some part of the Deacons office not so needfull in the time of christian magistrats office to prouide for the poore is not necessarie séeing that by other lawfull and politike meanes they may much better be prouided for Wherfore glorie as much as you will in your owne witte and reason yet in these heauenly diuine things your reasons shall proue but vaine and vntowarde Chap. 1. the. 5. Diuision Admonition Againe in the olde Church euery (w) Phil. 1. 1. Iohn 13. 27 Acts. 6. 5. 1. Tim. 3. 8. congregation had their Deacons Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 120. O how aptly you haue alledged the scriptures to proue that euery congregation had their Deacons In the first to the Philip. these be Whether deacons were in euery congregation the wordes Paule and Timotheus c. to all the Saincts vvhiche are at Philippi vvith the Bishops and Deacons Paule Timotheus salute the Bishops and Deacons which are at Philippi Therfore in those dayes euerie congregation had their Deacons a straunge kinde of reasoning you might well haue thus concluded Ergo at Philippi there was Deacons But surely this argument is to much out of Unapt arguments square there was Deacons at Philippi therefore euerie congregation had their Deacons In the. 13. of S. Iohn verse 27. these be the wordes And after the soppe Sathan entered into him then sayde Iesus vnto him that thou doest do quickly After Supper Satan entered into Iudas and Iesus sayde vnto him that thou doest do quickly Therefore euerie Cōgregation had their Deacons No maruel though your margent be pestred with Scriptures when you take libertie to make ex quolibet quidlibet Peraduenture you meane that Iudas was a Deacon as he was not but an Apostle bycause he caryed the bagge and that some of the Apostles thought that Christ had bid him giue some what to the poore belike whosoeuer giueth a pennie to the poore at his masters commaundement is with you a Deacon In the sixt of the Actes we learne that there were chosen seuen Deacons but there is not one worde to proue that euery congregation had their Deacons In the thirde of the first to Timothie S. Paule sheweth what qualities and conditions a Deacon ought to haue but not one worde of Deacons being in euery Congregation This is great audacitie thus manifestly to wring the Scriptures without all colour or shewe of reason T. C. Pag. 152. Sect. vlt. The second point is touching that there were Deacons in euery Church which is wel proued of the Admonition both by the place of the Philippians and of the Acts for although it be not there sayd that the deacons were in euery church yet forsomuch as the same vse of thē was in all Churches whiche was in Ierusalem and at Philippes and for that the Apostles as hath beene before touched labouring after the vniformitte of the Church ordeyned the same officers in all Churches the proofe of one is the proofe of all and the shewing that there were Deacons in one Church is the shewing in all The place which they alledge out of the first to Timothe is of all other most proper for S. Paule there describing not how the Church of Ephesus but simplie and generally how the Church must be gouerned reckeneth there the order of Deacons whereunto may be added the continuall practise of the Church long after the Apostles tymes which appeareth by the often superscriptions and subscriptions in these wordes the Bishop Elders and Deacons of suche a Church and vnto the Bishops Elders and Deacons of such a Church And by that it is so oftentymes sayde in the councels where the Churches assembled that there were so many Bishops so many Elders so many deacons Io. Whitgifte And I say againe that they be most vnapt reasons for the Deacons office was not so troublesome but that the Deacons of one Citie might serue all the Churches and congregations belonging vnto the same neyther haue you read eyther in scripture or any auncient
wryter except I be greatly deceyued that Deacons were placed any where but in Cities and yet it is not to be thought but that there were Churches also in meaner Townes And surely no man without blushing can defend this argument there were Deacons at Ierusalem and at Philippos Ergo there were in euerie congregation Deacons It is like vnto this there be Preachers in Cambridge and London therefore in euerie parish in England there be preachers This is also vntrue that the Apostles ordeyned the same officers in all Churches For in chiefe and principall Cities they ordeyned Bishops to guide and gouerns the rest of the ministers which were in townes belonging to those cities as it is manifest by the examples of Iames Timothie and Titus but they did not ordeyne any such Bishops in euery congregation for further proofe of this I referre the reader to that Tract 8. which I haue spoken of Archbishops and Bishops The first to Timothie the third is as violently wrested to serue their purpose For S. Paule doth not speake one worde there of Deacons being in euery congregation onely he telleth what maner of man they ought to be And you are not able to shewe as I haue sayde by the practise of the Church that there were Deacons in euerie congregation These superscriptions and subscriptions that you talke of were then vsed when letters were sent to the Bishoppe Ministers and Deacons of chiefe Cities where all these commonly remayned and therefore cannot proue that euerie congregation had their Deacons The Deacons named in Councels were resident in Cities not in euerie congregation But among all these slender defenses of yours you leaue out the. 13. of S. Iohn The Admonitors left to their own defense vers 27. belike the Authors of the Admonition must answere that themselues as they must do many other places which you by silence passe ouer vnto them Chap. 1. the. 6. Diuision Admonition Nowe they are tyed to Cathedrall Churches onely and what do they there gather the almes and distribute it to the poore nay that is the least peece or rather no part of their function What then to sing a Gospell when the Bishop ministreth the Communion If this be not a peruerting of this office and charge let euery one iudge Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 121. Sect. 2. I am sure you are not offended that there be Deacons in Cathedrall Churches for if they ought to be in euery Congregation they ought to be there also and yet I knowe no such order nowe in Cathedrall Churches that they be more bounde to Deacons in the respect of reading the Gospell than other Churches be But admitte they were it is no peruerting of the office of a Deacon being incident to his office as well to read the Scriptures in the congregation and Diuerse state of the church Some part of the Deacons office not now so necessarie to exhort as to giue almes and distribute to the poore for the state of the Church is not nowe as it was in the Apostles time neither is that part of the office of a Deacon so necessarie now as it was then being lawes orders otherwise to prouide for the poore than there eyther was then or could haue bene T. C. pag. 153. Sect. 1. The thyrd poynte in this Deaconshyp is whether it be a necessary office in the churche or for a tyme only which controuersie should not haue bene if M. Doctors Englyshe tongue had bene agreable with his latine For in a certayne latine pamphlet of his wherof I spake before he maketh the Deaconship a necessary office and such as ought not to be takē out of the church here he This disco is in your care not in ong singeth an other song there because he thought the necessitie of the Deacon made for hym hee woulde needes haue Deacons here because it maketh against him he sayth there is no neede of thē wherby appeareth howe small cause there is that M. Doctor should vpbrayde the authors of the Admonition with mutabilitie and discorde with them selues But that this office is durable perpetual it may appeare by that which I haue alledged before out of the fixt of Timothie for the necessitie of Elders for the argumentes serue to proue the necessitie of those orders which are there set forthe whereof the Deacon is one Io. Whitgifte The onely thing that is spoken in that latin booke touching the continuance of Deacons in the Churche is this that they are not mentioned in the fourth to the Ephesians and yet they may not be taken out of the Churche In my Answere to the Admonition I saye that this parte of the office of a Deacon which consisteth in prouiding for the poore is not so necessary nowe as it was in the Apostles tyme. My englyshe tongue agreeth very well with my latine tongue for any signification of dissention that is here vttered I am fully perswaded that the office of a Deacon is to be reteyned in the churche for it is a degrée to the ministerie which consisteth in Preaching Baptizing and helping the ministers in other functions of the churche as I haue shewed But yet I saye that this parte of the office whiche consisteth in prouiding for the poore is not so necessary vnder a Christian prince when better prouision is made as it is vnder a Tyrant and in time of persecution Therfore I sing one and the selfe same song but you would gladly espye out the contrary if it were possible To your allegation out of the sixte of Timothie I haue answered fully it is but a conceyte of yours whiche your selfe wyll mislike when you be better aduised Chap. 1. the. 7. Diuision Admonition And yet least the reformers of our tyme should seeme vtterly to take out of Gods church this necessary function they appoynte some thyng to it concerning the poore and that is to searche for the sycke needy and impotent people of the paryshe and to intimate their estates names and places where they dwell to the Curate that by his exhortation they maye be releeued by the Parishe or other conuenient almes And this you see is the nyghest parte of his office and yet you must vnderstande it to be in such places where there is a Curate and Deacon euery paryshe cannot bee at that coste to haue both nay no paryshe so farre as can be gathered at this present hath Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 122. Sect. 1. And what faulte can you fynde herewith is not this greatly to be commended If euery paryshe can not be at the coste to haue bothe Curate and Deacon why do you require them both in euery parishe why do you not thinke well of such lawes as appoynte Collectours for the poore whiche may as well prouide for them and better to than coulde the Deacon who must be susteyned hym selfe with that which the poore should haue T. C. Pag. 153. Sect. 1. And whereas M. Doctor sayth that euery
opiniō touching Musculus the authoritie of y e ciuill Magistrate in ecclesiasticall matters briefly but plainly in these wordes Those whome they call Ecclesiasticall persones and we call them Papistes will not commit to the magistrate any further authoritie in religion than to be the keeper and reuenger of it and of their Ecclesiasticall lawes that the ecclesiasticall pollicie maye remayne immouable wherefore they deny him to haue authoritie in that he is a magistrate to make or to publyshe any Ecclesiasticall lawes bicause suche things perteine to those that do represent the churche whose decrees and constitutions must bee mainteyned and defended by the authoritie of the magistrate This I thought good to nete before I come to answering of his argumentes that al men may vnderstand that I no otherwise charged them in this point than they haue well deserued neither haue I as yet detected all that they peruersly thinke of the authoritie of the ciuill magistrate one thing I praye you marke that here is one note A note of Anabaptisme practised by y e Rep r. practised that I haue ascribed to the Anabaptistes in my (*) Pag. 2. sect 2. Answere to the Admonition for there I shewe that the Anabaptistes accuse the true ministers of the Gospell for attributing as they saye to much to the ciuill magistrate The same doth T. C. charge me with in this place But I will nowe come to his argumentes The. 2. Diuision T. C. Page 154 Sect 1. This distinction if M. Doctor knoweth not nor hath not heard of let him looke in the seconde booke of the Chronicles in the. 19. chap. and in the. 8. and. 11. verses hee shall see that there were a You alleage the reasons of the Papilies to the same purpose with them number appointed for the matters of the lord which were priests Leuites and there were other also appointed for the kings affaires and for matters of the common wealth amongest which were the Leuites which being more in number than could be applied to the vse of the churche were sette ouer ciuill causes being therfore moste fitte for that they were best learned in the lawes of God which were the polylike lawes of that countrey There he may learne if it please him that the making of orders and giuing of iudgementes in ciuill and Ecclesiasticall in common wealth and churche matters perteyned vnto diuers persons whiche distinction the writer to the Hebrewes doth note when he sayeth (*) that the Priest was ordeyned in thinges perteyning to God Hebr. 5. Io. Whitgifte Yes I bothe knowe this distinction and haue hearde of it for I haue redde it The 〈◊〉 vseth the same distinction reasons with the Papistes in the bookes of the Papistes as I haue shewed before I haue hearde also this same place of the. 2. Chro. 19. alleaged to confirme it For Saunders in his booke before named dothe vse it to the same ende and purpose that you do that is to proue the Ciuill Magistrate to haue no authoritie in making Ecclesiasticall lawes and orders his woordes be these Likewyse Iosaphat kinge of Iuda distinguishing bothe the Saunders li. 2. cap. 1. fol. 57. powers sayde to the Leuites and Priestes Amarias the Prieste and your Bishop shall gouerne in those thinges whiche perteyne to God But Zabadias c. beholde something perteyned to the Bishop other somethinges to the office of a Kinge The same place also dothe Harding vse to the selfe same ende agaynst my Lorde of Sarisburie fol. 118. of the defense of the Apologie of the Churche of Englande from whome I beléeue you haue borrowed it Do I not say truely that you iumpe with the Papistes do you not both conspire agaynst the Ciuill Magistrate and are you not content to vse theyr very woordes and reasons greate ado there is agaynst me bycause I vse a place of Cyprian for the authoritie of an Archbishop ouer his prouince whiche the Papistes abuse for the authoritie of the Pope ouer all Christendome and here you vse the reason not onely of Papistes but of Traytours to the same ende with them that is agaynst that lawfull iurisdiction whiche wée haue giuen to our Prince and whiche hath hetherto bene maynteyned bothe by preaching and by burning But to lette this reste in the consideration of the Reader I will in fewe The place of the Replier agaynst himselfe woordes declare that this place maketh flatte agaynst you for who placed those Leuites and Priestes in Ierusalem for the iudgement and cause of the Lorde or who prescribed vnto them what they shoulde do or who gaue to them that authoritie did not Iehosaphat the texte is playne Iehosaphat had chiefe authoritie and gouernment bothe in thinges perteyning to God and in thinges perteyning to the common wealth but for better execution of them the one he did committee to be executed by Amaria the Prieste the other by Zabadiah a ruler of the house of Iuda euen as the Quéenes Maiestie beyng supreme gouernour in all causes bothe Ecclesiasticall and Temporall committeth the hearing and iudgyng of Ecclesiasticall matters to the Archbyshops and Bishops and of Temporall matters to the Lorde Chauncellour and other iudges neyther can you any more conclude that Iehosaphat had no authoritie in Ecclesiasticall causes bycause he made Amarias the Prieste iudge in the same than you can that he had nothing to do in Temporall affayres bycause he appoynted also Zabadiah to heare determine them For if this reason be good the Quéene of Englande hath nothing to do with Ecclesiasticall matters bycause shée hath made the Archbishops and Bishops iudges in them then is this as good hir Maiestie hath no authoritie in Ciuill matters bycause she hath committed the same to the Lorde Chauncellour and other Iudges Thus you see howe both the Papistes and you are deceyued in one and she selfe same reason I will but note by the way that the Leuites beyng Ecclesiasticall persons had Leuites being Ecclesiasticall persons had to d in ciuill matters to do in Ciuill matters as the woordes of the texte verse 11. moste manifestly declare as for your shifte of the number of them beyng more than coulde be applyed to the vse of the Churche it is but your owne and therefore to simple to answere so playne and direct a place of the Scripture That in the fifte to the Hebrewes is farre from the purpose for the Apostle in the same sentence declareth what those things perteyning to God be Euen to offer bothe giftes and sacrifices for him I thinke you do not so malitiously reporte of vs as the Papistes do that we giue to the Prince power to minisier the Sacramentes and to preache the woorde if you do not this place can by no meanes serue your turne The. 3. Diuision T. C. Pag. 154. Sect. 2. This might M. Doctor haue learned by that whiche the noble Emperour Constantine attributeth Euseb. lib. 2. de vita Const. epi. ad Euseb.
in whiche onely are conteyned (y) 2. Ti. 3. 6. 17. all fulnesse and sufficiencie to decide controuersies 2. Pet. 1. 20 Rom. 1. 16. 1. Cor. 1. 18 c. must sound in his church for the very name Apocrypha testifieth that they ought rather to be kept close than to be vttered Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 171. Sect. 1. 2. Your second reason in fewe wordes is this In the booke of common Homilies prayer it is appointed that after the Creede if there be no sermon an Homilie must follow eyther already set out or hereafter to be set out but you knowe not what will hereafter be set out therefore you will not subscribe You haue no cause to suspect any thing touching religion set out by publike authoritie for so is the booke or hereafter to be set out by common authoritie Hitherto you are not able to conuince any Homilie set out by common authoritie of any errour and therfore you ought not Our homilies cannot be accused of any errour to be suspicious of any that is to come If any Homilie shall hereafter be set out wherein you mislike any thing you neede not to reade it the booke doth not appoynt you this or that Homily to reade but some one which you like best But what neede you to be scrupulous in this matter if you be disposed to preache then neede you reade no Homilie at all therefore this is no reason T. C. Pag. 157. Sect. 2. I answere that although it be meete that as we hope that the Homilies which are made already be godly so those that shall be made hereafter shal be likewise yet considering the mutabilitie of men and that of tentimes to the worse it is not meere nay it is merely vnlawfull to subscribe to a blancke seyng that we cannot witnesse or allow of those thinges which we haue not seene nor hearde Io. Whitgifte If you be disposed to quarrell it is an easie matter to picke out occasions but your suspicion is without cause and I thinke a modest protestation in that poynt would not be refused Chap. 2. the. 2. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 171. Sect. 3. 4. This assertion that in the holy Scriptures is conteyned all fulnesse to decide controuersies if you meane controuersies in matters of fayth and in matters touching saluation is very true but you haue vsed litle discretion in quoting some places to proue the same I finde no faulte with you for cyting the sixte verse of the. 2. Tim. 3. for the. 16. verse that is but a small ouersight and it may be in the Printer but howe do you conclude this assertion of the wordes of Peter 2. Epist. cap. 1. verse 20. which be these so that ye firste knovv that no prophecie of the Scripture is of any priuate motion for this place only proueth that the Scriptures be not of men but of the holy ghost it speaketh nothing of the sufficiencie of the Scripture Io. Whitgifte Nothing answered Chap. 2. the. 3. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 172. Sect. 1. 2. 3. That place also 1. Cor. 1. is not fitly applied to this purpose there is Scripture sufficient directly to proue the sufficiencie of scripture so that you should not haue needed to giue the aduersarie occasion to carpe at the vnaptnesse of these places for that purpose Homilies conteyning doctrine agreable to the Scriptures be of the same nature that sermons be Wherefore if it be not lawfull in the Churche to reade Homilies neyther is it lawfull to preach Sermons The reason is all one neither is there any difference but that Homelies be read in the booke Sermons sayde without the booke Homilies are pithie learned and sounde sermons oftentimes be Some Homilies better than some sermons wordes without matter vnlearned erroneous T. C. Pag. 157. Sect. vlt. The place vnto the Corinthes is the same vnto the Romaines and M. Doctor approuing one hath no cause to finde faulte with the other For the hemilies first of all I haue shewed how absurde a saying and how vnlike a diuine it is to matche reading of homilies with preaching of sermons For if the reading of the holy Scriptures is nothing so fruitefull as the preaching of them muche lesse is the reading of homilies to be for their fruite matched with preaching of sermons Io. Whitgifte Neither of both the places doth proue directly that for the which the Authors of the Admonition do vse them and there be other places more manifest which they haue omitted I haue answered in that place to all your Replie concerning this point I do not match reading of Homilies with Sermons simply or with all sermons but with Reading of Scriptures a meanes to iudge of sermons some and to some sermons I do preferre the Reading of Homilies for the causes conteyned in mine Answere to the Admonition Both the reading and the preaching of the Scriptures is necessarie and the one in diuerse respectes as necessarie and in some respectes more necessarie than the other For the Scripture is the rule to discerne and iudge sermons and preachers by Christe willeth to take heede of false Math. 7. Prophetes Math. 7. Which can not be done without the diligent reading of the Scriptures those of Thessalonica are to be commended for trying by the Scriptures the Act. 17. doctrine preached vnto them Act. 17. S. Iohn willeth that the spirites be tried whether Iohn epist. 4. Cal. 1. they be of God or no which must be by the Scriptures S. Paule Gal. 1. willeth them to holde him accursed that shall preach any other Gospell vnto them whiche they can not do without that knowledge whiche God doth giue vnto them by reading of the Scriptures Infinite places there be that tendeth to this ende but I haue spoken of this matter before This is my opinion that both reading and preaching be most necessarie but in some respectes the one to be preferred before the other Chap. 2. the. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 157. Sect. vlt. There remayneth that I shew briefly that neyther the Homilies nor the Apocrypha are at all to be redde in the Churche Wherein first it is good to consider the order which the Lorde kept with his people in tymes past when he commaunded that no vessell nor no instrument either besome or flesh hooke or panne c. should come into the temple â–ª but those onely which were sanctified and set aparte for that vse And in Leuiticus he will haue no other trumpets blowne to call the Numb 10. people togither but those onely which were set aparte for that purpose What should the meaning of this lawe be The matter of other common vessels and trumpets was the same oftentimes which theirs was the same forme also and the other beesomes and hookes and trumpets hable to serne for the vses ofsweeping and sounding c. as well as those of the temple and as those whiche were set aparte wherfore mought not
by other councels as may appeare by the councell of Colen albeit otherwise Popishe And truly if there were nothing else but this consideration that the bringyng in of the readyng of Martyres liues into the churche and of the homilies of auncient wryters hath not onely by this meanes iustled with the Bible but also thrust it cleane out of the church or into a corner where it was not redde nor seene it ought to teache all men to beware of placing any wryting or worke of men in the church of God be they neuer so well learned as long as the world should endure Io. Whitgifte It is certayne that the decrée of the Councel of Laodicea can no more condemne the reading of Homilies in the Churche than it may the readyng of Prayers or Cathechismes or any other interpretation of the Scriptures The meaning of the Nothing ought to be read in the church vnder the name of Scriptures but the canonicall Councell is onely that nothing be redde in the Churche as Scripture or vnder the name of Scripture but that which is Canonicall And that doth euidently appeare in the. 47. Canon of the third Councell of Carthage which doth explane this Canon The woordes be these Item placuit vt praeter Scripturas Canonicas nihil in Ecclesia legatur sub nomine diuinarum scripturarum It is thought good that nothing be redde in the Church vnder the name of the scriptures of God but the Canonicall Scriptures It doth not therfore Con. Carth. 3. can 47. inhibite interpretations of the scripture and godly exhortations grounded vpon the same to be redde Concilium vasense as it is before declared appointeth Homilies Homilies appoynted to be redde to be redde when there is no Sermon by reason of some infirmitie or sickenesse in the minister which is a godly and profitable decrée neyther could it be the cause of any corruption I do not defend the reading of any thing in the Churche which is not grounded Nothing ought to be redde not grounded of the scriptures vpon the worde of God therefore the decrée of the Councell of Carthage or any such like doth nothing touch the cause that I defende and yet I know not in what sort or out of what storie these liues of Martyres were redde I like very well of the decrée of the councell of Colen for it inhibiteth the reading in the Churche of fabulous and barbarous stories of the liues of Sainctes whereby it is like that the booke called Legenda aurea is mente But what is this against godly Homilies that conteyne the true interpretation of the scriptures godly exhortation to good life sound proofes of true doctrine which is as far frō iustling the bible out of the church or into corners as is preaching And I muse that you can alleage this for a cause seing you thinke so slenderly of the reading of the Scriptures and will haue y e same giue place to your sermons Chap. 2. the. 8. Diuision T. C. Pag. 159. Sect. 1. And if any man (*) You haue obiected that which you cannot answere obiect that by this meanes also is shut out of the church the forme of ordinarie Prayers to be sayde I saye the case is nothing lyke for when wee pray wee can not vse the wordes of the Scripture as they orderly lie in the text But for so much as the church prayeth for dyuers things necessarie for it the which are not conteined in one or two places of the scripture and that also there are some things which we haue need of wherof there is no expresse prayer in the scripture it is needfull that there be a forme of prayer drawne forthe out of the Scripture which the church may vse when it meeteth as the occasion of the tyme doth require which necessitie can not be by no meanes alleaged in the reading of Homelies or Apocrypha Whervpon appeareth that it is not so wel ordeyned in the church of Englande where both Homilies and Apocrypha are read especially when as diuers chapters of the books called Apocrypha are lifted vp so high that they are sometyme appoynted for extraordinarie lessons vpon feastes dayes wherein the greatest assemblies be made and some of the chapters of the canonicall Scripture as certain chapters of the Apocalyps quite lefte out and not redde at all Io. Whitgifte You haue made an obiection which you can not answere and against the which all these reasons that you haue before vsed do as much preuayle as they doe against reading of Homilies and whatsoeuer you can say for the one may likewise be said for the other For when we interprete the Scriptures when we teache or exhorte we can not vse onely the wordes of the scripture as they lye orderly in the texte but wee muste amplifye them displace them applie them to the matter we speake of entermingling them with our owne wordes and phrases For except you will graunt this to be lawfull as wel in exhorting and teaching as in publike preaching you must as I sayd before as well condemne Sermons as Homilies The Apocrypha that we reade in the Church haue bene so vsed of long tyme as Apocrypha redde in timèpaste in the churche it may appeare in that third councel of Carthage and 47. Canon where they be reckened among the Canonicall bookes of the Scripture They maye as well be read in the Church as counted portions of the olde and new Testament and forasmuch as there is nothing in them contrarie to the rest of the Scripture I sée no inconuenience but much commoditie that may come by the reading of them ¶ Of the name Priest giuen to the ministers of the gospell Chap. 3. The fyrst Diuision Admonition We speake not of the name of Prieste wherwith he defaceth the minister of Christe bicause the Priest that translated it would perhaps fame haue the minister of Christe to be ioyned wyth him seyng the office of priesthood is ended Christ being the last Priest that euer was To cai vs therfore Priests as touching our office is eyther to call backe againe the olde priesthoode of the law which is to denie Christ to be comen or else to keepe a memorie of the popishe priesthode of abhomination stil amongst vs. As for the fyrst it is by (d) Heb. 5. 1. 6. Heb. 9. 11. Chryst abolished and for the seconde it is of Antichrist and therfore we haue nothing to do with it Suche oughte to haue (e) Eze. 44. 10 Ierem. 23. Heb. 5. 4. no place in our Church neither are they ministers of Christ sente to preach his Gospell but Priests of the Pope to sacrifice for the quick and the dead that is to treade vnder their feet the bloud of Christ. Suche ought not to haue place amongst vs as the scriptures manifestly teache Besydes that we neuer reade in y e new Testament that this word Priest as touching office is vsed in y ◠good parte Answere to the
I would haue him vnderstand that we hold that the body must be honestly and comely buried and that it is meete that for that cause some reasonable number of those which be the friends and neighbours about should accompany the corps to the place of buriall we hold it also lawfull to lament the dead and if the dignitie of the person so require we thinke it not vnlawfull to vse some way about the buriall whereby that may appeare but yet so that there be a measure kept both in the weeping in the charges considering that where as immoderate eyther weeping or pompe was neuer no not in the time of the law allowed now in the time of the gospell all that is not lawfull whiche was permitted in the time of the law For vnto the people of God vnder the law weeping was by so much more permitted vnto them than vnto vs by how muche they had not so cleare a reuelation and playne sight of the resurrection as we haue whiche was the cause also why it was lawful for them to vse more cost in the embaulming of the dead therby to nourish and to help their hope touching the resurrection whereof we haue a greater pledge by the resurrection of our sauioure Christ than they had Io. Whitgifte Al this is néedelesse but that you are disposed to stretch out your volume Chap. 6. the. 2. Diuision Admonition The eleuenth They appoint a prescrip kind of serui e to bury the dead and that whiche is the duty of euery christian they tie alo e to the mini ter whereby rayer for the dead is maintayned and partly gathered out of some of the prayers where they pray that we with this our brother and all other departed in the true faythe of thy holy name may haue our perfect consummation and blisse both in body and soule We say nothing of the threefould peale bycause that it is rather licensed by iniunction than commaunded in the booke nor of their straunge mourning by changing their garments which if it be not hypocraticall yet it is superstitious and heatcrush bycause it is vsed only of custome nor of buriall Sermons whiche are put in pl ce of rentalls whereout spring many abuses and therefore in the best reformed Churches are remoued As for the superstitions vsed both in countrey and citie for the place of buriall which way they must lie how they mu t be fecched to Church the Minister meeting them at Church st le with surplesse with a company of greedy Clearks that a Crosse white or blacke must be set vpon the dead corps that breade must be giuen to the poore and offrings in buriall time vsed and cakes sent abroade to friends bycause these are rather vsed of custome and superstition than by the authoritie of the booke Small commaundement will serue for the accomplishing of such things But greate charge will hardly bring the least good thing to passe and therefore all is let alone and the people as blind and as ignorant as euer they were God be mercifull vnto vs. Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 198. Sect. 1. It is true that we haue a prescript kind of seruice to bury the dead and that we appointe that office to the minister and what haue you in the whole scripture against this or whoeuer hath found fault with either of these two things I meane prescript seruice to bury the dead and the minister to execute that office but you alone or when was it euer heretofore reproued by any but euen by yourselues now of late T. C. Pag. 161. Lin. 5. Nowe for the things which the Admoni ion fyndeth fault with and thereof ingeth reason M. Doc er of his bare creditē without any reason or sc ipture or 〈◊〉 thing else 〈◊〉 them vnto 〈◊〉 and sayth they be good And this you shall marke to be M. Doctors simple shift through out his ooke that when he hath no coloure of scripture nor of reason no name nor title of Doctor then r make 〈◊〉 some thing ▪ he v rieth his affirmation by all the figures he c n as in saying 〈◊〉 that it is so and then in 〈◊〉 whether it be not so and after in asking whether there 〈◊〉 any 〈◊〉 man will thi ke hat it is not so s if he woulde make vs beleeue that he setteth vs diuers 〈◊〉 of mea es bycause he bringeth the same in diuers dishes For besides these reasons he hathe no reason either to pro e that it is meete to haue prescript forme of seruice for the dead or that the 〈◊〉 should be drawen to this charge Surely if the order be so good and conuenien it hathe met with a very barren trone whiche can saye nothing for it And although there be enough sayd by the Admonition yet bycause this bold and hardy peach is nough to leade the simpler a y and to make them thinke that M. Doctor hath a good cause therefore I will also say so thing of these rites of bur all Io. Whitgifte What one reason is there vsed in the Admonition what one word of scripture what authoriti of writer to improue a prescripte kinde of seruice to bury the dead and the minister to execute that office If there be any rehearse it if there be none why do you kéepe your old cu ome of speaking vntruly for as much therefore as they only say The dead b r d by the minister and with pra er in the 〈◊〉 Church it withoute proofe withoute reason without gr unde the thing being knowen so be good and godly and pra tised in the primitiue Church for we reade in Tertullian that the dead were wont to be buried by the ministers and with prayer and furthermore séeing it is established and allowed by the Church what shoulde I laboure by reason or authoritie to confirme that whiche cannot by any reason or authoritie be ouerthrowen Tertul. de Anima Wheresore I will only answer such bare assertions as M. Zuinglius answered An order receyued in the Church needeth no proof vntill by reason it be ouerthrowen Zuinglius ad ▪ Balt a. resp vpon the like occasiō one Balthasar an Anabaptist VVhilest you require scripture and reason you obtrude vnto other that whiche you oughte to performe your selues for you denie that this ought to be so shew therefore some expresse testimonie out of the scripture to confirme your opinion To this effect spea eth Zuinglius to Balthasar who without reason or scripture alleadged to the contrary required of Zuinglius the proofe of those thinges whiche without controle ent of any but Heretikes had continued in the Churche of long time and then also allowed in the time of the Gospell Euen so the receiued order established by this Church carieth with it authoritie and credite sufficient and néedeth not to be further by reason confirmed except it be first by reason ouerthrowen which bycause it is not per ourmed by the Admonition my affirmation is sufficient
reason against their deniall If this be M. Doctors simple shift throughout his booke I trust M. Doctor that would haue bin hath not omitted to note it where he may finde it seing his eye sight is so sharpe that he can imagine himselfe to espie it where no man else can find it But let words go Chap. 6. the. 3. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 198. Sect. 2. You say that thereby prayer for the dead is mainteyned as may partly be gathered out of some of the prayers where we pray that we with this our brother and other departed in the true faith of thy holy name ▪ c. You know full well what out doctrine Prayer for the dead not mainteyned is concerning prayer for the dead and you ought not thus boldly to vtter a manifest vntruth for in so doing you do but be wray your sinister affection How proue you that a prescripte forme of seruice for burying the dead and the minister only to bury them doth mainteine prayer for the dead ▪ when you haue shewed your reason you shall hea e my answer In saying that these words gathered out of some of the prayers Pag. 199. 〈◊〉 1. 2. 3. that we with this our brother c. import prayer for the dead you do but quarrell E position of a prayer at Buriall when we say that we with Abraham Isaac and Iacob may reygne in thy kingdome do we pray for Abraham Isaac and Iacob or ather wish ourselues to be where they are In the like manner when we say that we with this our brother and all other departed in the true faith of thy holy name may haue our perfect consummation blisse both in body and soule we pray not for our brother and other that be departed in the true faith but we pray for ourselues that we may haue our perfect consummation and blisse as we are sure those shall haue which die in the true fayth Now weigh this reason there is a prescript forme of burying the dead and it is madea portion of the ministers office ther fore you will not subscribe to the communion booke T. C. Pag. 161. Sect. 1. And first o all as this almost is a generall fault in them all that they mainteine in the myndes of the ignorant the opinion of praying for the dead so is this also another generall faulte that these ceremonies are taken vp without any example eyther of the churches vnder the law or of the purest churches vnder the Gospell that is of the churches in the Apostles tymes For when the Scripture describeth the ceremonies or rites of buriall amongst the people of God so diligently that it maketh mention of the smallest things there is no doubt but the holy Ghost doth thereby shew vs a patterne wherevnto we should also frame our burialls And therefore for so muche as neyther the Church vnder the law nor vnder the Gospell when it was in the greatest puritie did euer vse any prescript forme of seruice in the buriall of their dead it could not be but daungerous to take vp any such custome and in the time of the law it was not only not vsed but vtterly for for bidden Leuit. 21. for when the law did forbid that the priest should not be at the buriall whiche ought to saye or conceiue the prayers there it is cleare that the Iewes might n t haue any suche prescripte forme and yet they had most neede of it for the causes of obscure knowledge and weaker fayth before alleadged Agayne by this meanes a new charge is layd vpon the minister and a taking him away from his necessary duties of feeding gouerning the flocke which being so greate as a maruellous dilig nce will scarsely ouercome ought not to be made greater by this being a thing so vnnecessary The Admonition dothe not say that the prayers whiche are sayd are for the dead but that they mainteyne an opinion of prayer for the dead in the heartes of the simple and that they declare mamanifestly enough when they say that it may be partly gathered c. Io. Whitgifte Your first reason to proue that there ought to be no prescripte forme of seruice to bury the The prescript forme of seruice mainteyneth not pr yer for the dea but 〈◊〉 dead and that the minister ought n t to execute that office is this It mainteyneth in the mindes of the ignorant an opinion of praying for the dead therefore there ought to be no prescripte forme of seruice to bury the dead neyther must the minister execute that office Undoubtedly this is a very ignorant argument if a man denie your antecedent howe will you proue it do you thinke the people whome you do so greatly in other places extoll to be so rude that they vnderstand not the English tongue Are they not able to discerne what it is to pray for the dead Surely I do not thinke any to be so simple that hearing the manner and forme of burying our dead can or will imagine that we pray for the dead And I verily beléeue that the ignorantest person in a whole countrey will deride the babishnesse of the argument The prescripte forme that is now vsed and the minister pronouncing the same wi ather perswade them to the contrary for where as in times past the minister vsed to say masse and dirige for the soules of the dead and sundry times moue standers by to pray for the dead at the time of buriall now doth he reade most wholesome scriptures declaring the myserie of the life of man the shortnesse of his dayes the happinesse of those that dye in the Lorde and the certeintie of the resurrection And who can hereof gather any prayer for the dead Your second reason is this these ceremonies that is a prescript forme of burying the dead c are taken vp without any example eyther of the Churches vnder the law or of the churches in the Apostles time c. therefore there may be no prescripte forme of seruice for burying the dead and the minister may not make it a péece of his office to bury them I denie this argument for it is negatiue from authoritie bycause you haue neyther warrant to say that there was no such order in the Apostles time neither if you had any such warrant doth it follow that it may not be so in our time séeing that in ceremonies and diuers other orders and externall thinges we are not bounde to the forme and manner of the Apostolicall Church And yet if I should say that in the Apostles time the minister vsed to bury the dead and ground my reason vpō the place of S. Augustine before alleadged quod vniuersa tenet ecclesia c. I know not what you would be able by any reason to say to the contrary Another argument you conclude thus It was forbidden in the lawe that the prieste should be at the buriall of the dead therefore the Iewes
chappell cannot be but most daungerous which with all humble submission and reuerence I beseech hir Maiestie duly to consider Io. Whitgifte My speach is verie plaine and without all ambiguitie I say there is a dozen Cathedrall Churches in England the worst of the which Churches in learning shal incounter with all papists c. My meaning can not be so darke as you would séeme to make it but bicause your vnderstanding is so dull when any thing is spoken to the commendation of any other than of your selfe I will more plainly declare my meaning whiche is this that there is not one of these dozen Churches but hathe a sufficiente number of learned menne to perfourme what so euer I haue promysed howe so euer boastinglye which I acknowledge to be my infirmitie but yet there vnto constreyned by the arrogancie of such qui cupiunt soli videri aliquid esse Your opprobrious speaches spoken of those Churches as mere slaunders and procéeding from a minde ouercome with enuie and contempt of other I passe ouer affirming still the same that is conteyned in mine Answere to the Admonition the which you may wel snap and bite at in words but in déede you shall neuer be able to steyne those places and whatsoeuer you pretende to the vniuersities yet your good will is as much towardes the one as it is towardes the other they both depending vpon one thréede But if there be abuses in hir Maiesties Chappell as you suppose why haue you not sought the reformation thereof orderly Why haue you sought it tumultuously why haue you libelled agaynst it why haue you sought it with spitefull wordes with disquieting the Church without all dutie and order The. 2. Diuision Admonition The seuentéenth We should be to long to tell your honours of Cathedrall Churches the dennes aforesayde of all loytering lubbers where maister Deane ▪ maistr Uicedeane maister Canons or maister Prebendaries the greater maister pecie Canons or Canons the lesser maister Chauncelor of the Church master Treasurer or otherwise called Iudas the purse bearer the chief Chauncer Singing men speciall fauourers of religion squeaking Queristers Organ players Gospellers Pistellers ▪ Pentioners Readers Uergers c. liue in great idlenesse and haue theyr abyding If you woulde knowe whence all these came we can easily answere you that they came from the Pope as out of the Troian horses bellie to the destruction of Gods kingdome The Church of God neuer knew them neither doth any reformed Church in the world know them Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 224. Sect. vlt. pag. 225. Sect. 1. Here you speake both without the booke of common prayer and Scriptures also for neyther are Cathedrall Churches conteyned in that booke neither haue you any Scripture to proue that which you so impudently affirme God be thanked it is well knowne to those that be not with malice blinded that Cathedrall Churches be furnished with godly zealous Learned men in cathedrall Churches and learned men And that they be the chiefe and principall ornaments of this Realme and next to the Uniuersities chiefest mainteyners of godlynesse religion and learning there be some desire the spoyle of them whose instruments you be But I hope both theyr mouthes and yours also shall be first stopped with earth Maister Deane maister Uicedeane maister Canons c. as much as they loyter may thinke themselues fit to be compared with such as you are in any respectes T. C. Pag. 164. Sect. 2. And as for the reasons which M. Doctor bringeth to establish them in the. 225. page as that they are necessarie which he doth barely say and that S. Augustine alloweth of a Deane and that the Authours of the Admonition are instruments of those which desire the spoyle of them and that a man may as well speake agaynst Uniuersities and Colleges as ag ynst them I haue answered before sauing that it is to be feared that Colleges in Uniuersities if M. Doctor may worke that which he goeth about will shortly be in little better case than those cathedrall Churches which not only by his owne example but with might maine and all indeuour possible goeth about to fill and fraught with non residencies and such as haue charges of Churches in other places (*) What will this slaundrous tongue spare which do no good in the vniuersitie and partly are such as can do none onely are pernicious examples of riotous feasting and making great cheere with the prayes and spoyles whiche they bring out of the countrey to the great hurt of the vniuersitie presently and vtter ruine of it hereafter vnlesse speedie remedie be therefore prouided Io. Whitgifte If I may work that which you say I go about I trust it shall be nothing that derogateth either frō the glory of God the honor of the Prince the peace of the church the cōmendation of the vniuersitie or the encrease of godlinesse learning I thank god I neither haue gone about any thing nor intende to do whereof I am either ashamed The 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the 〈◊〉 hotte and ter 〈◊〉 or afrayde to make mine accompt But who séeth not your greefe In déede I may not suffer those with whom I haue to do to disquiet y e Uniuersitie or Colledge with false doctrine and schismaticall opinions I may not suffer them openly to breake contemne those lawes statutes which they are sworne to obserue and I to execute I may not suffer any man against the expresse woordes of his othe against all honestie and conscience to liue vnder me least I be partaker of his periurie these be the things that I haue done and these be the thinges that I intende to do whereby as hitherto I haue kepte the place where I am in some quiet and good order so do I trust to continue it both to the glorie of God the honour of the Prince the great encrease of learning the edifying of Christes Churche and the commendation both of the Colledge and the whole Uniuersitie And howsoeuer you haue by woorde and writing sought to deface both me and The colledge deliuered from the slanderous Replie the Colledge yea the whole vniuersitie for my sake cōtrary to the expresse woordes of your othe as I sayde in the beginning yet are you in act and déede confuted though I should not speake one woorde for contrary to your expectatiō and practise of your instruments and earnest desire of al that be factious the Colledge was neuer in better quietnesse neuer replenished with more towarde scholers neuer fuller of students of all degrées I speake it to Gods glory to deliuer it frō your slaunders than it is at this presente A great occasion of all these blissinges of God as instruments and meanes is the grauitie the honestie the wisedome the learning the discrete gouernment of those whom you call non residentes whom not I but the noble founders statutes ratified by the Quéenes Maiesties authoritie and allowed of by the wysest of the
a little after hee sayeth That hee coulde not omitte those businesse withoute the omittyng of his dutye To the same effecte dothe he speake in that Treatise that is among his Episiles in number an hundreth and ten where he desyreth the people that they woulde not moleste hym for the space of fyue dayes wyth theyr worldely matters by reason of certayne busynesse commytted vnto hym as it appeareth in these woordes It pleaseth mee and you for the care of the scriptures whych the brethren and fathers my fellowe Byshops dydde vouchesafe to laye vppon mee in Ang. epi. 110. the Councells of Numidia and Carthage for the space of fyue dayes no man shoulde trouble mee These thynges were propounded you were contente youre decree and consente was rehersed it was kepte but a small tyme and afterwardes you did violently brust in vnto mee neyther coulde I bee suffered to doe that whyche I woulde In the forenoone and in the after noone I am troubled with mennes busynesse I desyre you for Chrystes sake to suffer me to committe the care of my troubles to Eradius this yong man and prieste whome thys daye in the name of Christ I appoynt to be your bishop and my successour Possidonius nameth no elders but speaketh onely of Augustine and whosoeuer shall with diligence pervse the nintéenth chapter of Possidonius shall be enforced to confesse that he meaneth Augustine was occupyed as well in ciuill as ecclesiasticall matters and in determinyng of them as in writyng of letters for them or in giuyng of counsell Wherefore this example of Augustine is moste fitly alleaged of the Bishop of Sarum and manyfestly declareth what was the vse in his dayes touching suche matters Chap. 3. the. 15. Diuision The Bishop of Sarū in the defense of the Apol. in the. 5. parte 4. chap. 2. sect T. C. Pag. 171. Sect. 2. And for the truth of thys matter that ministers oughte not to meddle wyth ciuill affayres (*) But you shall not fynde him contrary to him selfe as you surmyse I will appeale to no other than to the Bishop himselfe who doth assume playnly the same that the admonition here affirmeth Io. Whitgifte In that place the Bishop of Sarisburie speaketh onely of the Pope who vsurpeth M. Iewell speaketh not againste ciuill o ces in ministers simply but allowed them by his owne practise the whole and full authoritie of a secular Prince and doth chalenge the same iure diuino by the authoritie of Gods worde He speaketh not of suche Bishops to whome so muche ciuill authoritie is committed by the Prince as maye serue to the correction of vice and good and quyet gouernmente of the Churche forsomuch as he did himselfe exercyse the same And surely it is not well done of you thus to charge that worthie man with contrarieties vniustly For doth he that confuteth the Popes vniust claime and vngodly vsurpation of both the swords in that maner y t he claymeth vseth them condemne al maner kind of ciuil iurisdctiō by christian Princes committed to Bishops being helpes vnto them in dooing their duetie and tendyng to the good and quiet gouernmente of the Churche Surely you are good in confounding but too bad in distinguishing wherefore you haue vntruly reported of that worthie Bishop Chap. 3. the. 16. Diuision T. C. Pag. 171. Sect. 3. And therfore I conclude that forsomuche as (*) Wherefare you not asha med of vutruthi bothe the holie scriptures do teache that ministers ought not to meddle with ciuil offices and reason and the practise of the Church do confirme it that they ought to kepe themselues within the limites of the ministerie and ecclesiastical functions least whylest they breake forth into the callyng of a Magistrate in stead of shewing them selues 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is ouerseers they be founde to declare themselues 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is busy bodies medlyng in things which belong not vnto them And thus putting them in remembrance of that whiche they knowe well mough that they ought 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ▪ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that is to say studie to adorne that charge whiche they take in hand and do professe I leaue to speake any further of this matter Io. Whitgifte Melchisedech being a Priest did exercise ciuill iurisdiction for he was king of Salem The scriptures teach that ecclesiasticall persons maye haue ciuill iurisdiction Gen 14. Aaron being a Priest did iudge the whole people in temporall matters euen in causes of inheritance Num. 27. In the. 17. of Deuteronomie there is a commaundement that ciuill matters of difficultie shal be referred to the Priests and to the iudge Elye and Samuel Priests did iudge the people in matters temporall Gen. 14. Nume 27. Deut. 17. 1. Sam. The people of Israell after theyr captiuitie were gouerned by Priestes and Prophetes as by Esdras Nehemias Mattathias c. The Scripture in no place commaundeth the contrarie nor moueth vnto it yet you are not ashamed to say that the holye scriptures doe teache that ministers oughte not to meddle with ciuill offices Lykewyse in Augustines tyme it is euidente by the woordes before recited The practise of the churche concerning ciuill offices in ministers that it was not straunge but vsuall and counted a péece of duetie for Bishops to deale in Ciuil causes and that as Iudges The authours of the Centuries in the fourth Centur. chap. 7. say that Bishops in that age did giue sentence in ciuil causes if anye didde appeale from the Ciuill courtes to their authoritie Sozomene Lib. 1. cap. 9. Bishops gaue sentence in ciuil causes Cent. 4. cap. 7. Sozom. li. 1. cap. 9. wryteth thus of Constantine the Emperour This was a greate argumente of his good affection towardes Christian religion that he made a lawe for the freedome of clearkes in all places and also hee gaue libertie for those that were called into iudgemente to appeale to the Bishops if they were disposed to refuse the ciuill magistrates and he commaunded that their sentence should stand and be of more force than the sentence of the Appeale graū ted from ciuill magistrates to Bishops other iudges euen as though it had proceeded from the Emperour hymselfe And that the Magistrates and their ministers should see that acomplished that was determined and iudged in suche causes by the Bishops Nicephorns lib. 7. cap. 9. maketh mention of one Philaeas a Bishop that was greatly Niceph. lib. 7. cap. 9. commended for his wisedome and dexteritic in determining ciuill matters committed vnto him Sozomene lib. 6. cap. 32. testifieth of Epiphanius Bishop of Salamine Soz. li. 6. c. 32. Epiphanius busied with ciuill canses that together with his pastorall office he was occupyed and that with greate commendation in ciuill and politike affaires Eusebius lib. 7. cap. 32. testifieth that Dorotheus being a Priest of the Churche of Euseb. lib. 7. cap. 32. Antioche and wel learned did scrue the
same to appoint as they shal thinke most conuenient and agréeable to the generall rules giuen in the scripture for that purpose Neither is this contrarie to any thing that I haue written But bothe in this and that also whiche immediatly foloweth you are contrarie to your self and directly ad oppositum to the Admonition T. C. is contrarie to himselfe and to the Admonition and agreeth with the answere As by conference may appeare for these be your owne wordes Whereby it lykewyse appeareth that we denye not but certayne things are lefte to the order of the Churche bycause they are of that nature which are varyed by tymes places persons other circumstances and so coulde not at once be set downe and established for euer And yet so left to the order of the Church as that it doe nothyng against the rules aforesayde What dothe this differ from these wordes of myne It is also true that nothing in Ceremonies order discipline or gouernmente of the Churche is to be suffered against the word of God and to this end doe all those authorities and places tende that I haue alledged for this matter So that eyther you vnderstand not me or not your selfe or else your quarell is againste the person not the cause The admonition in this poynt you defende not for it sayeth directly that those things only are to be placed in Fol. 19. Gods Church whiche the Lorde himselfe in his worde commaundeth And although peraduenture you will shifte this off by saying that they meane suche things only as bée commaunded eyther generally or specially yet the whole discourse of their booke declareth that their meaning is that nothing ought to be placed in the Church which is not specially commaunded in the worde of God But séeing you and I agrée in this that the Church hath authoritie to ordeyn ceremonies and make Orders whiche are not expressed in the woorde of God it remayneth to bée considered wherein we differ whiche is as I thinke in this that I say the Churche of England hath lawfully vsed her authoritie in suche ceremonies orders as she hath appointed nowe retaineth and you denie the same so that your controuersie is against the Church of England and the Ceremonies and orders vsed therein And therefore you adde and saye but howe doth this follow that certaine things are left to the order of the Churche therfore to make a newe ministerie c. Whereby you giue vs to vnderstande that the things you misselike in this Church are the office and name of an Archbishop whiche you vntruly call a newe ministerie as it is by me declared in my answere to the Admonition oure ministerie the gouernment of our Church and as you say other more that is all thinges at your pleasure But how iustly and truly this is spoken shall appeare in their proper places In the meane tyme it is sufficient to tell you that you are an vnwoorthy member of this Churche whiche so vniustly report of it so vnchristianly slaunder it and so without groundes and sounde proofes condemne it There is nothyng by it or in it altered which God hath ordeined and established not to be altered Chap. 1. the syxt Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 21 Sect. 5. 6. Pag. 22. Sect. 1. 2. The Scripture hath not prescribed any place or time wherein or when the Lordes Supper should be celebrated neither yet in what manner The Scripture hath not appoynted what tyme or where the congregation shall meete for common Prayer and for the hearing of the word of God neither yet any discipline for the correcting of such as shall contemne the same The Scripture hath not appointed what day in the weeke should be most meete for the Saboth day whither Saterday which is the Iewes Saboth or the day now obserued which was appointed by the Churche The Scripture hath not determined what forme is to be vs d in matrimonie what words what prayers what exhortations The Scripture speaketh not one worde of standing sitting or kneling at the Communion of meeting in Churches fieldes or houses to heare the word of God of preaching in pulpets chaires or otherwise of Baptising in fontes in basons or riuers openly or priuately at home or in the Church euery day in the weeke or on the Sabaoth day only And yet no man as I suppose is so simple to thinke that the Church hath no authoritie to take order in these matters T. C. Pag. 15. Sect. vlt. Pag. 16. Sect. 1. But whyle you goe about to seeme to say muche and rake vp a great number of things you haue made very euill meslyn and you haue put in one things which are not paires nor matches Bycause I will not drawe the Reader willingly into more questions than are alreadie put vp I will not stande to dispute whether the Lordes day which we call Sonday being the day of the Resurrection of our Sauior Christ and so the day wherin the world was renued as the Iewes Sabboth was the day wherin the world was finished and being in all the Churches in the Apostles tymes as it seemeth vsed for the day of the rest and seruing of God ought or may be changed or no. This one thing I may say that there was no (a) It is lesse true dealing for you to charg men wi 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ey haue not affir ed. great indgement to make it as arbitrarie and chaungeable as the houre and the place of prayer But where was pour iudgement when you wrote that the scripture hath appointed no discipline nor correction for such as shal contemne the common prayers and hearing the word of God what Church discipline would you haue other than admonitions reprehensions and if these will not profit excommunication and are they not appointed of our Sauiour Christ (b) Scriptures vnskilfully alleaged Math. 18 There are also ciuill punishments and punishments of the body likewise appointed by the worde of God in diuers places (b) Scriptures vnskilfully alleaged in the. 22. of Exodus He that sacrificeth to other gods not to the Lord alone shal die the death And in y e (b) Scriptures vnskilfully alleaged 19. of Deutronomie Thou shalte turne out the euill out of the middest of thee that the rest may eare and feare and not dare do the lyke The execution of this lawe appeareth in the (b) Scriptures vnskilfully alleaged 15. 2. Chro. by king Aza who made alawe that al those that did not seeke the Lord should be killed And thus you see the ciuill punishment of contemners of the worde and prayers There are other for suche as neglect the worde whiche are according to the quantitie of the faulte so that whether you meane ciuill or Ecciesiasticall correction the scripture (c) Or else you are deceyued hath defined of them bothe Io. Whitgifte Out of all these things whiche I saye the Scripture hath not prescribed or appointed T. C. seeketh quarels
Sundaye and whereof both Ignatius and Tertullian speake but it is the Saterday whych is called Sabbatum And that this is true you myghte haue read in the same Epistle of Augustyne to Casulanus where he saith thus VVhereas you aske of me whyther it be lawfull to faste on the Sabboth daye I Ibidem aunswere if it were by no meanes lawfull truely neyther Moyses nor Helias nor oure Lorde him selfe woulde haue fasted fortie dayes together But by thys reason it is concluded that the faste on the Lordes daye is lawfull also notwythstandyng whosoeuer doth thynke that thys daye oughte to be dedicated vnto fastyng as some doe obserue the Sabboth fasting he shall gyue no small offence to the Churche And after in the same Epistle And truely of the Sabboth day the case is more easie bycause the Church of Rome dothe faste and some other also althoughe but fewe eyther of those that be nexte or farre from it But to faste on the Lordes daye is a greate offence especially since that detestable heresye of the Manicheis which is muche repugnant to the Catholike fayth and moste manifestly contrarye to the Scriptures of God hath bene openly knowen whych doe appoynte vnto their hearers thys daye as lawfull to be fasted wherby it is come to passe that the faste on the Lordes daye is accompted more horryble You sée therefore howe you maye be deceyued for all the great reading you woulde séeme to be of for these fathers agrée among them selues and you haue faulted in opposyng them to Augustyne and Ambrose so that for anye thing that is yet proued agaynst them a man may well vse theyr authoritie in such matters wythout that inconuenience that you suppose for I knowe howe farre they them selues would be beléeued and wherevnto theyr authoritie extendeth It is lyke that bothe Ambrose and Augustine woulde haue done that themselues which they moued other men vnto and much more beyng Citizens than beyng straungers it is also like that if they had bene Ministers there they woulde haue in time and place reproued suche things as were amisse for it had bene their duetie so to doe yet doe I lykewise thinke that they would haue had great respect to that aduertisement that Augustine gaue to Casulanus in that Epistle in these wordes vtique cauendis est ne tempestate contentionis serenitas charitatis obnubiletur Verily we muste take heede least Ibidem in the storme of contention the fairenesse of loue be darkened The errors which Ambrose or Augustine had must not preiudice their authoritie in speaking truely This is but a very simple kinde of answering to denie the author where be speaketh truely bycause in some other place he hath erred and bene deceyued I neither alledge Ambrose nor Augustine to allowe or disalow weekely and commanded fastes but to proue the matter that I haue in hand which is that the scripture hath not expressed all things vsed in the Churche Howbeit I know nothing in this place affirmed either by Ambrose or Augustine touching fasting which may not be obserued without iust offence Chapter 3. the. 2. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 23. Sect. 2. That whiche he writeth in his Epistle ad Ianuarium 118 is a most Aug. Ep. 118. playne declaration of his iudgement in this matter Illa autem quae non scripta sed tradita custodimus quae quidem toto terrarum orbe obseruantur dantur intelligi vel ab ipsis Apostolis vel plenarijs concilijs quorum est in Ecclesia saluberrima authoritas commendata atque statuta retineri sicuti quod domini passio resurrectio ascensio in coelum aduentus de coelo spiritus sancti anniuersaria solennitate celebrantur si quid aliud tale occurrerit quod seruatur ab vniuersa quacunquese diffundit ecclesia Those things vvhiche be not vvritten but kept by tradition vvhich are obserued through the vvhole vvorld are to be vnderstanded either to be deliuered vnto vs from the Apostles them selues or else decreed by generall Councels vvhose authoritie is greate in the Churche as that vve yerely vvith solemnitie celebrate the passion of the Lorde and his resurrection his ascention into heauen and the comming of the holy Ghost and if there be any other thing that is obserued of the vvhole Churche T. C. Pag. 18. Lin. 1. Sect. 1. 2. 3. 4. What you meane to cite this place ad Ianuarium 118. I can not tell You charge the authors of the Admonition to be conspired with the Papistes I will not charge you so but will thinke better of you vntill the contrarie do more appeare But I appeale to the iudgement of all men if this be not * Nor one whit but the contrarie shall be proued to bring in poperie agayne to allowe of S. Augustines saying wherein he sayth that the celebrating of the day of the passion c. is either of some generall Councell or of the Apostles commaunded and decreed whereby a gate is open vnto the Papistes to bring in vnder the colour of traditions all their beggerie whatsoeuer For you playnely confirme that there is some thing necessarie to be obserued whiche is not contayned any wayes in the Scripture For to keepe those holydayes is not contayned in the Scripture neither can be concluded of any parte thereof and yet they are necessarie to be kepte if they be commaunded of the Apostles Therefore in your opinion some thing is necessarie to be kepte whiche is not contayned in the Scriptures nor can not be concluded of them And if you say that S. Augustine leaueth it in doubt whether it were the Apostles tradition and statute or a generall Councels then you bring vs yet to a worse poynte that we can not be assured of that whiche is necessarie for vs to knowe that is whether the Apostles did ordayne that these dayes shoulde be kepte as holydayes or the Councels And that it is S. Augustines meaning to father Sermo 7. de baptis cont Donatist lib. 5. ca. 23. suche like things of Apostles it may appeare by that which he writeth saying There are many things whiche the whole Churche holdeth and therefore are well beleeued to be commaunded of the Apostles althoughe they be not founde written * A pretie and sound collecti If this iudgement of S. Augustine be a good iudgement and a sounde then there be some things commaunded of God whiche are not in the scriptures and therefore there is no sufficient doctrine contayned in the scriptures wherby we may be saued (a) A great vntruthe and absurditie For all the commaundements of God and of the Apostles are needefull for our saluation And (b) Nay marke how your affections moue yo to speake vntruely marke I pray you whither your affections carie you before you sayde that the Lordes day whiche was vsed for the day of rest in the Apostles time may be changed as the place and houre of prayer and the day
our saluation then must we be bounde vpon necessitie of saluation to obserue the whole Ceremoniall law which was the commaundement of God What was the commaundement vnto Abraham to offer his sonne Isahac Genes 22. vnto the Israelites to robbe the Egyptians vnto Moses to put off his shoes vnto Exod. 11. Saule to kill Amalech and infinite other needefull for our saluation is the commaundement Exod. 3. of the Apostles to abstayne from bloud and that whiche is strangled or of 1 Sam. 15. Paule vnto Timothie to drinke wine c. needefull for our saluation What a torment Act. 15. is this doctrine able to bring vnto a weake conscience whiche hathe not obserued 1. Tim. 5. any one of these You muste therefore vnderstande that there are diuers kindes of commaundementes of God and of the Apostles some generall and giuen to all other Diuerskinds of commaundements personall and pertayne onely to one singular person or to one nation and kinde of people c. Agayn there are some which are perpetual not to be omitted or altered other which are temporall and may be omitted or altered as the circūstance of time place persons doth require Wherby it may appeare howe grossely you haue erred in affirming that all the commaundements of God and of the Apostles are needefull for oure saluation I might in more ample maner prosecute this matter but this that hathe bin spoken may suffice What I haue sayde of chaunging the Lordes day and howe you haue satisfied my wordes is declared before and so is the answere made likewise vnto this your féeble conclusion grounded vpon a falie principle Which of vs two is caried furthest by his affections let the indifferēt reader iudge by these and suche other like dealings of yours I haue tolde you before howe muche this and the other places of S. Augustine maketh for my purpose whiche you can not but vnderstande if you soughte not corners to creepe into for the auoyding of suche reasons and authorities as be moste apte for my purpose Things whiche the Apostles haue done for vs to followe without any exception may not be violated but the question is whether these things whiche they haue done and written be sufficient for the ordering and gouernment of all Churches in all times and states or no. And whether in all things that they haue done we may or oughte to follow them both which you haue hitherto very slenderly touched Chap. 3. the. 3. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 24. Sect. 1. 2. 3. Pag. 25. Sect. 1. And agayne Quod neque contra fidem neque contra bonos more 's iniungitur indifferenter est habendum pro eorum inter quos viuitur societate seruandum est That vvhich is enioyned being neither agaynst fayth nor good maners is to be counted indifferent and to be obserued as the societie of those vvith vvhome vve lyne requiteth In the same Epistle answering this question whether vpon the Thursday before Easter the Lordes supper shoulde be celebrated in the morning or at nighte because Christe dyd institute this Sacrament and deliuer the same to hys Disciples after supper he gyueth these three rules worthy to be noted the first is this If the holy Scripture prescribe any thing to be done there is no doubte but that muste be obserued as it is there prescribed The seconde is this That if any thing be vniuersally obserued of the vvhole Churche not repugnant to the Scriptures for so he meaneth not to keepe that or to reason of that is madnesse The thirde If it be not vniuersally obserued but diuersly in diuers Churches Faciat quisque quod in ea ecclesia in quā venit inuenerit Let euery man do as he findeth in that Churche into the vvhiche he commeth modònon sit contra fidem aut contra mores So that it be not agaynst faythe or good maners for so he addeth In the same Epistle agayne he sayth that the Lorde hath not in Scripture declared in what order and maner his Supper shoulde be celebrated but lefte that to his Disciples And in his hundreth and nintenth ad Ianuar. In those things sayth he that be diuersly obserued in diuers places this rule as moste profitable is to be kepte that those things vvhich be not agaynst faythe neither good maners and make something to exhorte vnto a better life vvheresoeuer they are instituted vve ought not onely not to disallovve them but to prayse them and to follovv them By all these places of this learned father it is euident that it hathe beene receyued from time to time as a certayne truthe that the Church of Christ hath authoritie to ordayne and constitute as shall be necessarie in those things before of me rehearsed For a further proofe heereof I coulde alleage that auncient and learned father Iustinus Martyr in his seconde Apologie pro Iustinus Martyr Christianis and in his booke of questions Tertullian in his booke Decorona militis Basill also in his 63. Epistle writtē to the ministers of Neocaesaria Tertul. Eusebius Lib. 5. Ecclesiasti histor Cap. 25. 26. and diuers other but I omit Basil. them for breuitie sake neither doe I alleage those learned fathers Euseb. because I thinke their authoritie any thing at all preuayleth with the authors of the Libell but for the wyse discrete humble and learned whose humilitie and wysdome wyll not suffer them to despise the iudgements of so learned and godly fathers T. C. Pag. 18. Sect. 5. 6. 7. 8. 9. Pag. 19. Sect. 1. As for that rule that he giueth when he say the what so euer is not c. and for the last of the three rules I receyue them with his owne interpretation whiche he hathe afterwarde in 119. Epist. ad Ianuarium whiche is that it be also profitable And as for those three rules which you say are worthy to be noted I can see nothing that they helpe your cause one whitte for I knowe no man that euer denied but that the Church may in suche thinges as are not specified and precisely determined make orders so they be grounded of those generall rules which I haue before alleaged out of S. Paule And as for the seconde of the three rules I can not at any hande allowe it for when all Christianitie was ouerrunne with poperie thinges were vniuersally obserued whiche to keepe were meere wickednesse and this strengtheneth the Papistes vniuersalitie Concerning your Glose if it be not repugnant to the scripture besides that it is not inough because it muste be grounded by the Scripture and that it is wicked to giue suche authoritie to any decree of men that a man shoulde not enquire of it or reason of it I haue shewed that he mente nothing lesse For affirming that suche thinges are the Apostles commaundementes his meaning was that they shoulde be without all exception receyued and absolutely 〈◊〉 muche better is it that wee take heede to
it hath as euill successe here as in other places for when it is a great fault in diuiding to haue either too muche or too little you fault in bothe for where as you say they adde which teache or decree c. Besides that you leaue out whiche Moses mente you forget also that whiche your selfe had sayde whiche had placed adding too not onely in teaching and decreeing but in thinking or beleeuing And wheras you make foure parts of your diuision the three last are found to be all vnder the first member which is to make things of fayth and ceremonies contrarie to the worde and so your diuision is not onely faultie but no diuision at all * All this is spoken in contempt of the person not in defense of the cause The which thing I could haue easily forgiuen you and passed by as a thing not very commendable to trauell to shew the pouertie of those things which do sufficiently of themselues as it were proclayme their owne shame but that it grieued me to see a booke lengthened with first seconde thirde last as though euery one of them conteyned some notable newe matter which needed an Oyes before it to stirre vp the attention of the reader when there is nothing but a many of words without matter as it were a sort of fayre emptie apothecaries boxes without any stuffe in them And for that you are so harde with other men for their Logike I will desire the reader to pardon me if I pursue these things more narrowlier than some peraduenture will like of or I my selfe delight in And so for any definition or diuision that I can perceiue it standeth fast that nothing is to be done in the Church of God but by his cōmandement and word directing the s me It is true in deede if they be not agaynst the worde of God and profitable for the Churche they are to be receyued as those things which God by the Churche dothe commaunde and as grounded of the worde of God But there is the question and therefore you taking this as a thing graunted alwayes do alwayes fall into that whiche you charge other with of the failacion of Petitio principij Io. Whitgifte There is neither definition nor diuision here that can please you but what remedy when you iestes be vttered and you a little sported your selfe the matter commeth to trial there appeareth very slēder corrections I haue after my rude simple maner declared what it is to adde to the word of God or to take from it and haue Two contraties may be defined with one differēce not sought for any exacte definition But yet by your leaue two contraries may be defined by one generall difference when we talke of those things which be common to them bothe and do not séeke to separate them from among them selues but from all other thinges that be not of the same kinde So is vertue and vyce by this difference sensìm acquiri sensìm amitti separated from al other that be not sub habitu As Homo and brutum by this difference sensibile be separated from all other creatures that be not vnder Animal It is a common rule that the definition of that whiche is called genus doth agrée to euery part member vnder it which we call species be they contrarie repugnant or otherwise disagréeing the one from the other howsoeuer Therfore declaring generally what it is to adde to the worde or to take from the worde I say it is to thinke otherwise or to teache otherwise of God than he hath in his worde reuealed Whiche in genere dothe aptly expounde them bothe For as well he that addeth to the worde as he that taketh from the worde doth thinke or teach of God otherwise than he hath in his worde reuealed So you sée that a man of small dexteritie in defining may do that whiche you thought Zeno himselfe could not performe But what néeded all this pastime of yours do I not immediatly after seuerally declare both what it is to adde to the worde what also to take from it are you able to proue that the expositions whiche I set downe be not true can you better them Will you still more and more declare your quarell to be rather agaynst the person than the cause You saye I leaue oute that whiche Moyses especially mente to comprehende which is not to doe more nor to doe lesse than hee hathe commaunded Surely if you were disposed to deale modestly and sincerely as it behoueth you in so weightie a matter you woulde not thus wittingly and willingly séeke occasion of quarelling whether that whiche you saye is lefte oute muste not of recessitie be included in those words that I haue spoken of adding to the worde and taking from it or no I leaue to the indifferent reader to consider Touching my diuision I say as I did of the definition I am not curious in diuiding but I playnely and after my rude manner tell howe many wayes a man may adde to the worde of God Neyther dothe he alwayes diuide that sheweth howe many wayes a thing maye be done and yet is there nothing lefte oute necessarie to be expressed For this that you speake of thinking and beleeuing is included in the third kinde of adding to the worde The three laste kyndes are not founde to be vnder the fyrst ▪ for it is not all one to teache or decree any thing contrarie to the worde to make anye thyng necessarie to saluation not contayned in the worde to put any religion or opinion of merite in any thing that men them selues haue inuented besides the worde and to forbyd that as vnlawfull which God doth not forbid In the firste kinde is inuocation of Sainctes worshipping of Images c. whiche be directly contrarie to the expresse worde of God In the seconde is that decrée of Pope Boniface whiche maketh it necessarie to saluation to be subiecte to the Byshop of Rome and suche lyke whereof there is no mention in the Scriptures In the thirde kinde are all outwarde Ceremonies inuented by man wherein any opinion of worshipping or merite is put as holy breade holy water and other Ceremonies of that sorte In the laste parte is the decrée of Pope Nicholas Dist. 22. omnes where it is decréed that he whiche infringeth the priuiledges of the Churche of Rome is an heretike And in this sorte doe those adde also to the worde which condemne the vse of things indifferent as vnlawful for in so doing they make that sinne which the word of God dothe not make sinne Agayne that there is a great difference in the partes of my diuision and that they are not confounded you might haue perceyued if it hadde pleased you with better aduyse to haue weighed them for things may be decréed contrarie to the worde and yet not made necessarie vnto saluation Things may be made as necessarie to saluation which of them selues are not contrarie
of men But why doe they condemne whole Churches for indifferent things whiche if they woulde obey S. Paule ought to apply them selues to the weakenesse of euery one Beza in an Epistle of his prefixed before the confession of the Churches in Heluetia Beza sayth That all rytes and ceremonyes are not to be receiued without exception which the Apostolike Church it selfe hath vsed eyther as profitable or necessarie for their tymes and in his booke called confessio Christ. fidei cap. 5. he writeth That one cause of Councels and Idem Synodes was to make rules of ecclesiasticall discipline and to appoint the gouernment of the Church according to the diuersitie of time place and persons For it is necessarie that in the house of the Lorde all things shoulde be done in order of the vvhich order there is one generall reason in the vvorde of God 1. Cor. 14. But not one and the same forme agreeing to all circumstances And againe in the same Chapter he sayth The rules or canons of rytes and Idem orders in the Church haue respect to comelynesse in externall things and therefore they be neither generall for the most parte nor perpetuall for that which is profitable in some place in other some places would rather hurt and moreouer the diuerse respectes of the time are such that the same thing which for good considerations was ordained must of necessitie sometime be abrogated whereof it comes to passe that there is not onely so great varietie in the olde canons but contrarietie also Againe in the same Chapter VVe must Idem not alwayes looke what the Apostles did in politia ecclesiastica in the gouernmente of the Church seyng there be most diuerse circumstances and therfore absque 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 without ☜ preposterous zeale all things can not in all places and times be reduced to one and the same forme c. In the confessiō of the Churches in Heluetia c. it is thus written Men shall easily Confess ecclesiarum Heluet. gather this also that we doe not by any wicked schisme seuer or cut off oure selues from Christes holy Churches of Germanie Fraunce England and other Christian nations but that we well agree with all and euery one of them in the truth of Christe which here we haue acknowledged For albeit there is some varietie in diuerse Churches aboute the vttering and setting forth of their doctrine and aboute rytes and ceremonyes which they receiue as a meane to edifie their Churches yet that varietie neuer semed to minister cause of dissention and schisme in the Church for in such matters the Churches of Christ haue alvvayes vsed their libertie as we may reade in the Ecclesiasticall history I omit here the confession of the Church of VVirtenberge and the testimonyes of sundry other notable learned men I knowe no learned writer that doth denye the Church to haue authoritie in appoynting rytes ceremonyes discipline and kinde of gouernment according to the place time persons and other circumstances thoughe the same be not expressed in the word of God so that it doe nothing repugnante to the same But what néede I labour so much in a matter confessed by him that would séeme to ouerthrowe it for if the Iewes had twentie things left to their order in the Churche for our Pag. 21. Sect. one as T. C. hath affirmed and yet this commaundement not broken Deu. 4. 12. Nihil addes verbo c then may the Church of Christ vse hir libertie in like maner wythout any breache of the same Wherefore to conclude I nowe referre it to the iudgement of the Reader whether if be true or not that I haue affyrmed against the Authors of the Admonition to wit that those things onely are not to be brought in or vsed in the Church which the Lord himselfe in his word hath commaunded but that of necessitie in externall things and outward gouernment the Churche hath authoritie to determine according to time place person c. though the same be not commaunded or expressed in Scripture so that it be not repugnant to the word Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 32. Sect. 1. 2. Pag. 33. Sect. 1. The other places noted in this margent as Psal. 37. Rom. 12. 1. Cor. Scriptures vnchristianly abused by the Admonition 2. and the rest are not alleaged to proue any thing in cōtrouersie but onely withoute iudgement placed in the margent to make a shewe how aptly they be applyed I leaue to the consideration of the diligent Reader This one thing I can not but maruell at that these fellowes so please themselues in the platforme of their Church and attribute so much thervnto that they exhorte nay rather charge the courte of Parliament with perfecte hatred to detest the present state of the Churche with singular loue to embrace that which they prescribe in this Booke and to moue them rather to this perfect hatred of vs and singular loue of themselues they vse the authoritie of the. 31. and 139. Psalme In the one Dauid sayth that he hath hated them that gyue themselues to deceitfull vanities bicause he trusteth in the Lorde In the other speaking of the contemners of God of wicked and bloudie men Marke this spirite and of such as blaspheme God and be his enemyes he sayth I hate them vvith an vnfained hatred c. As thoughe all suche as like or alowe of the presente state of the Churche of this Realme of England gaue them selues to deceitfull vanities were contemners of God wicked and bloudy men blasphemers of God and his enimyes I will not aggrauate this blasphemie of theirs let Prince Nobles and all other louers of God his worde consider diligently this spirite and in time preuent the burning malice of the same no Turke no Iewe no Papist coulde possibly haue spoken more spitefully of this Church and state but such is the spirite of arrogancie To the lyke effecte they alleage the. 15. of Iohn 1. Timo. 3. Math. 7. 11. as thoughe they onely had the word of God and were of the Churche and we contemners and reiecters of the same O where is humilitie Truely if these men be not by discipline brideled they wil worke more harme to this Church than euer the Papist dyd Io. Whitgifte To this there is not one word spoken Admonition May it therefore please your wisedomes to vnderstande we in Englande are so farre off from hauing a Church rightly reformed according to the prescript of Gods word that as yet we are not come to the outwarde face of the same For to speake of that wherein all consent and wherevpon all writers accorde The outwarde markes wherby a true Christian Church is knowne are preaching of the worde purely ministring of the Sacramentes sincerely and Ecclesiasticall discipline which consisteth in admonition and correcting of faultes seuerely Touching the first namely the ministerie of the worde althougher must be confessed that the substance
place against himself The place that you alledge oute of the tenthe of the Actes maketh moste agaynste youre selfe and ouerthroweth youre whole buyldyng Fyrste bycause 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is not there taken for liftyng vp of handes but for appoyntyng or ordeinyng onely for Christe didde not appoynte his Disciples by lifting vp of handes Secondly it signifyeth not to appoynt or to ordeyne by the suffrages and consente of other for Christe required no mannes consente in the choyse of his Apostles so that you haue loste and not gayned by alleadging of that place for as this worde 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the tenthe of the Actes doth not signifye that the Apostles were chosen by the consente or voyce of any other than of Christe onely so dothe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 also in this fourtéenth of the Actes signifie that Paule and Barnabas didde appoynte and ordeyne them ministers by theyr owne voyces onely and not by the suffrages of the people Certainly that place of the tenth of the Acts manifestly declareth that this worde in Scripture dothe not signifie anye common Election by the voyces of the people as you woulde haue it to doe Wherfore I thinke that theyr iudgemente can not iustly be mislyked whyche say this worde in this fouretéenth of the Actes to signifie the solemne manner of ordeining Ministers by the imposition of handes not meaning thereby the bare Ceremonie but the whole action of ordeyning To conclude I wyll desyre no other interpretation of thys worde in the. 14. of the Acts than that same place whyche you haue alleadged Actes 10. whiche also answereth what so euer you haue héere spoken of Saincte Lukes skyll in the Gréeke tongue or of the vse of this woorde in the Scriptures so that I shall not néede any other Author before Sainct Lukes tyme to proue the same Chap. 4. the fourth Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 43. Lin. 12. Surely howesoeuer the woorde is taken yet here is no generall rule prescribed of electing ministers You maye as wel conclude that all thinges oughte to bee common among Christians bycause wee reade Act. 2. that all those whyche beleeued had all thinges common among them and that those which be conuerted to the Gospell ought to sell their goodes and landes to be distributed at the discretion of the ministers bicause they did so Act. 2. 3. T. C. Pag. 30. Sect. 5. 6. Pag. 31. Sect. 1. 2. 3. 4. Lette vs therefore see youre thyrde whyche is that although the Churches consente was then required yet it is not nowe and that it is no generall rule no more than saye you that all thyngs shoulde be therefore common nowe bicause they were in the Apostles tyme. The authors of the Admenition with theyr fauourers muste be counted Anabaptistes no one worde beyng shewed whiche tendeth therevnto you muste accuse them whiche confirme that foundation whereof they buylde their communitie of all things whiche is one of their chief heresyes If I shoulde saye nowe that you are lyke to those that row in a boate which although they looke backewardes yet they thruste an other way I shoulde speake with more lykelyhode than you haue doone For although you make a countenaunce and speake hotly agaynst Anabaptistes yet in deede you strengthen theyr handes with reasons But I will not saye so neyther doe I thynke that you fauour that secte but onely the whirlewinde and tempest of your affection bente to mayntayne this estate whereby you haue so greate honour and wealth driueth you vpon these rockes to wracke your selfe on and others For I pray you what communitie is spoken of eyther in the two or three or fourthe of the Actes whiche ought not to be in the Churche as long as the world standeth was there any communitie but as touching the vse and so farre foorth as the poore brethren had neede of and Act. 1. Act. 5. not to take euery man alyke was it not in any man his power to sell his houses or landes or not to sell them When he had solde them were they not in euery man his libertie to keepe the money to himselfe at his pleasure and (a) The text sayeth playnly that as many as were possessoures of lands c. soul them all they that were of the Churche didde not sell theyr possessions but those whose hartes the Lord touched singularly with the compassion of the neede of others and whome God had blessed with aboundance that they had to serue themselues and helpe others and therefore it is reckened as a rare example that Barnabas the Cyprian and Leuite didde sell his possession and broughte the price to the feete of the Apostles And as for Ananias and Saphira they were not punished for bycause they brought not the price of their possessions to the Apostles but bycause they lyed saying that they had broughte the whole when they had brought but parte And to bee shorte is there any more doone there than Sainct Paule prescribeth to the Corinthians and in them to all Churches to the worldes ende After he had exhorted to liberalitie towardes the poore Churche in Hierusalem not sayeth 2. Cor. 8. he that other shoulde bee releeued and you oppressed but vppon lyke condition at thys tyme your aboundance supplyeth theyr lacke that also theyr aboundance maye be for your lacke that there might bee equalitie as it is written he that gathered muche had nothing ouer and he that gathered little had not the lesse Surely it were better you were no Doctour in the Churche than that the Anabaptistes shoulde haue suche holde to bring in their communitie as you giue them In summe the Apostolike communitie or the Churches in their tyme was not Anabapti ticall Io. Whitgifte I haue shewed before in the begynning of my Answere to the Admonition No good argument a f ▪ cto ad iu not onely howe weake but also howe daungerous a kynde of reasonyng it is to saye that the Apostles did it Ergo wée muste doe it or the Apostles didde it not Ergo we muste not doe it Zuinglius a notable learned man dothe especially reproue the Anabaptistes for this kynde of reason and sayeth that an argumente à facto ad ius or à non facto ad non ius is neuer good excepte those examples be grounded vppon some lawe or rule Wherefore when I thus laboure to ouerthrowe the vitious manner and kynde of the Anabaptisticall argumente I truste no indifferent man will suspect me of their errors when I say that this is no good argument In the Apostles time those that beléeued had all things common among them therefore Christians muste haue all thynges common doe I confirme theyr heresie of hauing all things common I knowe not why you shoulde so charge mée with the whirlewynde and tempest of my affection bente to mayntaine this estate c. except you be offended bicause I shewe the weakenesse of the Anabaptistes reasons for their communitie My honour and
to no other as the diligent reader may easily perceiue But howsoeuer the words of Cyprian sound certayne it is that neyther that in the. 20. of Numeri nor this in the. 1. of the Acts can proue any election made by the people Chap. 4. the. 7. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 44. Lin. 1. No certayne forme of electing ministers commaunded in the scriptures But I saye that in the whole scripture there is no commaundement that it should so be nor any example that maketh therein any necessary or generall rule but that it may be altered as time and occasion serueth For in suche matters not commaunded or prohibited in scripture touching ceremonies discipline and gouernmente the Churche hathe authoritie from time to time to appointe that whiche is most conuenient for the presente state as I haue before declared T. C. Page 32. Sect. 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. But you saye these examples are no generall rules (*) It will fal out that you haue neyther examples of all Apostles nor of all Churches nor of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 times Examples of all the Apostles in all Churches and in all purer times vncontrolled and vnretracted either by any the rimitiue and purer Churches or by any rule of the scripture I thinke ought to stande If it were a priuate example of one or in one place alone or if it were countermaunded by any other rule of the scripture then the example were not always safe to follow But what if there be commaundement also ▪ In the (a) You are driu to a streight when you are glad to serch a mandatum out of the ceremoniall law eight of the booke of numbers the Lorde commaundeth that the Leuites whiche preached the word of God to the people in their seuerall congregations shoulde be broughte before the Lord and before the people the people should lay their handes vpon the Leuits heads whiche what other thinge is it than to declare their liking of them and by that ceremonie to consecrate them and set them apart for that vse of their ministerie And if you say that it were a disorder that all should lay on their hands I graunt you but so he speaketh bycause the approbation was by all and some in the name of the rest declared that by their laying on of hands But me thinketh I here your old answer that this perteyneth not vnto vs being a thing done vnder the law But take heede what you say for if you will admitte neyther the generall examples of the new testament nor the commaundements and examples of the old take heede that you do not or euer you be aware spoyle vs of the chiefe and principall pillers and buttresses of our religion and bring vs (b) Not so but you seeme to bring vs to plai udaisme to playne Catabaptistrie which you say you are so afraid of For to proue the baptisme of children and yong infants what stronger hold haue we than that God commaunded in the old Testament that they should be circumcised and examples thereof in the new Testament for that the Apostles baptised whole families where by al likelyhoode there were children Now we say that there is this commaundement in the old Testament of the ministers and there are examples in the newe Testament generall and throughout why shoulde it not then be necessarie in this as well as in the other Besides that in the (c) This is a silly place to proue 〈◊〉 generall commaundement 6. of the Acts the Apostles commaund that the Church shoulde seeke them out Deacons whome they might appoynt ouer the poore Touching certayne Ceremonies I haue shewed that they are necessary as namely the sacramentes And as for discipline and gouernmente I haue shewed partly and more heereafter will be shewed that they are of the substance of the Gospell if to haue excommunication be to haue discipline or if to haue pastors or Byshops and Doctors and Deacons be gouernmente of the Church Io. Whitgifte You do still petere principium and build vpon a false grounde for I denie that you haue examples either of all or of any of the Apostles or that this kind of election hath bin in all Churches in al purer times c. and albeit for the proofe of this sufficiēt is said before yet will I adde something now also All the places of scriptures that you haue The diuersitie of electiōs in the Apostles time hither to alleadged are Act. 1. Act. 6. Act. 14. and. 2. Cor. 8. whiche places neither agrée in persons that were to be chosen nor in the manner and forme of choosing For the first of the Acts is of an Apostle the. 6. of Deacons the. 14. of Byshops and the. 2. Cor. 8. of such as were ioyned with Paule for the collecting and distributing of Almes Al men do graunt that the calling and electing of an Apostle is immediatly from God and therefore dothe differ from all other elections of Pastors Deacons c. But to let thys passe I pray you consider the diuers manner and forme vsed in all these places In the firste of the Acts Péeter made an exhortation to the disciples he appoynted out of what company the newe Apostle shoulde be taken the Apostles presented two after prayers made lots were giuen foorth and the Apostle was chosen by lot and not by voice but immediatly taken and reputed with the eleuen Apostles In the. 6. of the Acts the twelue Apostles willed the whole multitude to looke out seuen men of honest report c. to be Deacons and the whole multitude did choose seuen and presented them to the Apostles and the Apostles prayed layed theyr hands on them In the. 14. of the Acts Paule and Barnabas ordeyned ministers in euery Churche with praying and fasting In the seconde Corinth eyghte At Paules request the Churches appoynte certayne to bée collectours for the poore Saynctes with hym whyche of all these examples woulde you followe will you name them to the people or shall the people name them too you Will you haue two put vp togyther and one of them chosen by lotte Or will you haue the whole people for to choose and you to lay on handes or will you only haue the Bishops to choose to bée short will you pray only at the election or will you both pray and fast or haue you any commission to make a mixture of all those examples and so to make one rule where vnto all Churches at all times must of necessitie be bound I told you before that M. Caluine saith plainly that out of that example in the first of the Acts no certaine rule can be gathered of electing and choosing of ministers and M. Beza li. confess ca. 5. is as plaine that there can be no certaine rule gathered out of the Beza 6. of the Acts or out of that in the first his words be these In the election of Matthias lottes were cast but for a peculiar cause
heere you attribute vnto it that euery one hand ouer head preached baptised and expounded the scriptures what a window nay what a gate is opened heere to (a) The Anabaptists glory of the same calling that you c 〈…〉 for Anabaptists to confirme their fantasticall opinion wherein they hold that euery man whome the spirite moueth may come euen from the plough tayle to the pulpit to preach the word of God If you say it is Ambrose saying not yours I answer vnlesse you allow it why bring you it and that to proue the difference betweene the Apostles times and these For if it be false as it is most false then there is no difference heere betweene the Apostles times and ours Doth not the whole course of the scriptures declare and hath it not bin proued that there was none that tooke vpon him the ministerie in the church but by lawfull calling what is this but to cast dust and dirt of the fairest and beautifullest image that euer was to make a smokie disfigured euill proportioned image to seeme beautifull to ouerthrow the Apostles buildings of golde and siluer and precious stones to make a cotage of wood strawe and stubble to haue some estimation which could haue none the other standing For in effect so you do when to vphold a corrupt vse that came in by the tyrannie of the Pope you go about to discredite the orders and institutions whiche were vsed in the Apostles times and that with suche manifest vntruthes Io. Whitgifte This is a very slender answer to Ambrose whose authoritie both for his excellent Ambrose vnworthyly r 〈…〉 ted by T. C. learning and vertue and also for his antiquitie is not to be so contemptuously reiected The selfesame word and to the same effect doth Georgius maior in his commentaries vpon the first to the Philip. recite out of one Rabanus Byshop of Moguntia who also borowed them as it should séeme of Ambrose Maior alloweth well of them and maketh no suche exclamations as you do and yet a man knowne to be learned and sound in religion as his works declare Likewise the authors of the Centuries 4. Cent. cap. 7. alledge this same place of Ambrose and allow of it and therefore the matter is not so heynous as you make it Anabaptistes pretende a kind of calling by the â—eople The Anabaptists glory of the same calling that you nowe contend for as it appeareth in the. 3. booke of M. Bullinger aduer Anabap. cap. 4. whose words be these suam verò vocationem c. They affirme that their calling is iust bycause they be called and sent of their 〈◊〉 Churches but our vocation to be vnlawful which is made of the magistrate and therefore that they are sent of God but we of the world and of men You know that this was one of the first things that the rusti all Anabaptists moued sedition for and that they required it of the magistrates as Sleydan declareth li. 5. ex his postulatis saith he primuÌ„ erat vt 〈◊〉 ipsis liceret ecclesiae ministros eligere qui verbum dei purè doceant Of those requests the firste was that they might choose ministers of the Church which might teach the worde of God purely You sée therefore that the Anabaptists many of them require a vocation and one not much vnlike that which you striue for in this place and at this time When Ambrose saith that it was permitted to euery man to preach the Gospell c. he dothe not say that it was permitted vnto them withoute some kinde of calling if you will vewe the place well and consider it at large as it is in Ambrose your heate will be something quenched I doubt not It is no derogation at all from the Apostolicall Church to haue the orders of it in diuers points altered for though suche were most conueniente then for that state time and persons yet are they not so now in respect of this state time and persons so that the forme of the Apostolicall Churches was then perfyte and absolute though now it admitte in the respect of diuers circumstances alteration Chap. 6. the. 15. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Page 45. Sect. vlt. Musculus also in his common places answering to this question Musculus why that ministers of the word are not chosen now by the ministers and the people as they were in the primitiue Church but appoynted by the Magistrate saith thus talis tum ecclesiarum erat status vt aliter noÌ„ essent eligendi ministri quia Christiano magistratu destituebantur Si reuocas temporum illorum mores primùm conditiones statum quoque illorum reuoca Such vvas then the state of Churches that they coulde choose their ministers no othervvise bycause they had no Christian Magistrates If thou vvouldest haue the manners and customes of those times obserued then must thou call backe their conditions and state T. C. Page 38. Sect. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. 8. vlt. Sect 39. Sect. 1 2. The place is to commoÌ„ which you assigne you had I am sure the booke before you you might haue tolde where the place was and in what title But that place of Musculus in the title of the magistrate is answered by himsel e in the same booke where he entreateth of the election of the ministers For going about as it seemeth to satisfie some of their ministers whiche were brought in do bt of their calling bycause they were not chosen by their Churches speaking of the vse of the Church in choosing their minister he sayth thus First it must be playnly confessed that the ministers were in times past chosen by consente of the people and or eyned and confirmed of the seignioures Secondarily that that forme of election was Apostolicall and lawfull Thirdly that it was conformable to the libertie of the Church and that thrusting the Pastor vpon the Churche not being chosen of it doth agree to a Church that is not free but subiecte to bond ge Fourthly that this forme of choise by the Churche maketh much both to that that the minister may gouern his slocke with a good conscience as also that the people may yeld themselues to be easlier ruled than when one commeth against their willes vnto them And to conclude all these he sayth that they are altogyther certeyne and such as cannot be denyed After he sayth that the corrupt estate of the Church and religion driueth to alter this order and to call the election to certayne learned men which should after be confirmed of the Prince And that it may yet more cleerely appeare that his iudgement is nothing lesse than to confirme this election he setteth downe their election in Bernland whiche he approueth and laboureth to make good as one which although it doth not fully agree with the election of the primitiue Churche yet commeth very neare vnto it As that not one maÌ„ but al the ministers in the citie of Berue do choose
a Minister of the worde To conclude if the election of a Byshop had of necessitie perteyned to the people Paule woulde not haue written in this manner to Timothie as he hath done describing vnto him what qualities he that is to be elected Byshoppe oughte to haue but he woulde rather haue written the same to the people or willed Timothie to declare it vnto them Neyther doth he any where in any of hys Epistles wryte to any Church to gyue them any instructions in this so necessarie a matter but onely wryteth of the same in those Epistles to Timothie and Titus beyng Byshops which maye be an argument that the ordering of Ministers doth properly apperteyne to a Bishop and that thys also manus citò c. is spoken to Timothie in that respect A man mave wryte to hys friende that hath interest in an election but Paul doth not onely write vnto Timothie as to one that hath interest but as to one in whom the whole interest consisteth When you say that Paule attributeth that to Timothie that was common to him wyth moe if you meane moe Bishops then it is true for it is a rule for all Bishops to follow but if you meane other of the people then doe you but shifte of the matter with ghessing To your proofes of that phrase and kynde of speache I haue answered before it is but a starting hole to flie vnto when you are foyled by the playne and euident woordes of the Scripture That whiche is by you alleaged 2. Ti. 1. and 1. Ti. 4. maketh for my purpose for you haue before confessed that imposition of handes was not by Fol. 31. Sect. 4. the Churche and people but by the Elders and Ministers and you alleage these places 1. Timo. 4. and 2. Timo. 1. to proue the same And therefore I muche maruell to what ende you nowe alleage them excepte it be to proue your phrase for they cannot proue anye election made by the people vnlesse you will say and vnsay at your pleasure But to put you out of doubt imponere manus to lay on hands somtimes signifieth the To laye on hands is diuersly taken Bullinger ceremonie only of laying on of hands and somtimes the whole maner forme of ordering And in this second signification it is taken 1. Ti. 5. 2. Ti. 1. Bull. expoundyng this place 1. Ti. 5. sayth manus enim imponere aliud non est quā ecclesiae aliquē praeficere ordinare To lay on hands is nothing else but to ordeine appoynt one ouer the Church And interpreting y t also 2. Ti. 1. he saith Paulus in praesenti per donū dei prophetiae donū intellexit functionē Episcopalē ad quam vocarat Timotheū dominus sed per ministeriū Pauli qui ideò nunc ▪ dicit donum illud in Timotheo esse per impositionem manuum suarum Paul doth heere vnderstande by the gifte of God the gifte of Prophecie and the offyce of a Bishop vnto the which the Lord had called Timothie but by the ministerie of Paule who for that cause nowe sayth that that gift was in Timothie by the imposition of his hands And M. Caluine Institu Cap. 8. Sect. 50. decideth this matter fully in these wordes Sed Paulus ipse alibi se Caluine c. But Paule himselfe in another place doth testifie that he and no moe did lay his hands vpon Timothie I admonishe thee sayth he that thou stirre vp the grace which is in thee by the imposition of my handes For where it is sayde in the other Epistle of the laying on of the handes of the eldership I do not so take it as thoughe Paule spake of the Colledge of Elders but in this name videlicet presbyterij I vnderstand the ordination it selfe as if he should say endeuour thy selfe that the grace be not in vayne which thou hast receyued by the laying on of hands when I ordeyned thee a minister Agayne vpon this 1. Tim. 5. he sayth thus Impositio manuum ordinationem significat signum enim pro re ipsa capitur The imposition of handes signifieth the ordering for the signe is taken for the thing it selfe For what is it to appoynt but to call elect ordeyne Moreouer that which Paule sayth to Titus Vt constituas c. dothe expounde this to Timothie manus citò c. and therefore in déede I make no difference in this place betwixte election ordeyning and imposition of handes Last of all you say that you answere though this mighte agree to Timothie alone c. If it agreed to Timothie alone it must néedes followe that it may agrée to other Bishops also for Timothie was a Bishop as it shall be by better reason proued than you Tract 8. are able to shewe any to the contrarie This that you speake of his Euangelistship and of his superioritie in that respect is onely spoken without reason or authoritie but you shall haue store of bothe to the contrarie God willing when I come to that place I am not so lauishe of my witnesses as you are of scornefull and vnséemely tauntes and speaches Bothe Ambrose and Chrysost. doe not say that Paule héere warneth Timothie onely to be circumspect but to be circumspect in appoynting of Ministers and if it were not so I doubt not but that I shoulde heare of it The words are spoken to Timothie in respecte that he was Bishop neither hath the Apostle giuen any suche like Admonition to any Church in any of his Epistles as I haue before noted And therfore Ambrose in his exposition of this place to Timothie after that he had shewed what circumspection the Apostle would haue to be vsed in ordeyning of Ministers concludeth thus Haec Episcopus custodiens castum se exbibebit religioni A Bishop obseruing Ambrose these things shall shewe himselfe pure in religion Whereby he signifieth that this precept is properly perteyning to a Bishop Chrysostome also in the. 1. Tim. 4. vpon Chrysostome these wordes Cum impositione manuum presbyterij sayth Non de presbyteris hoc loco sed de Episcopis loquitur ▪ non enim profectò presbyteri ipsum ordinarunt He speaketh not of priests in this place but of Bishops for certaynely priestes did not ordeyne him And Oecolam Oecolampad vpon the same wordes Presbyteros dicit Episcopos neque enim presbyteri Episcopum ordinabant He calleth Bishops Priestes for Priests did not ordeyne a Bishop Whereby it playnely appeareth that these auncient fathers thinke this precept manus citò ne cui imponas lay thy handes sodenly on no man to be giuen onely to Timothie in the respect that he was Bishop and therefore also to apperteyne vnto Bishops onely to ordeyne Ministers Hierome vpon that place to Titus sayth Audiant Episcopi qui habent constituendi Hierome Presbyteros per vrbes singulas potestatem sub quali lege ecclesiasticae potestatis ordo teneatur Let Bishops which haue authoritie to appoynt
Ministers in euery citie heare in what lawe the order of ecclesiasticall authoritie dothe consist And a little after speaking also of Bishops VVhereby it is manyfest that those whiche contemning the Apostles rule will not bestowe the ecclesiasticall degree vpon any for desert but for fauour to doe agaynst Christe c. Hierome héere taketh the Bishop onely to haue authoritie to ordeyne and appoynt Ministers And Chrysostome vpon the same place sayth that Paule dyd Chrysost. in 1. Tit. those things himselfe that required greatest labor and trauell but lefte other things of honour and commendation to Titus as ordeyning of Bishops So sayth Theophilact likewise Thus then you sée howe euidently bothe those places of scripture and also these auncient fathers do ouerthrow that saying of the Admonition that the right of ordering ministers dothe at no hand apperteyne to a Bishop And how manifestly also the same haue iustified that whiche I haue sayde that is that Bishops haue authoritie to admit ministers for these be my very words Nowe how corruptly you haue dealt with me héere in this place I would wishe The corrupte dealing of T. C. the indifferent Reader to consider where I saye that Bishops haue authoritie to admit ministers you make me to say that the election of ministers by one man was in y e Apostles time And where I say y t these words of Paul to Timothie manus citò ne cui imponas c. be an admonition to Timothie that he oughte to be circumspect in appoynting of ministers you make the reader beléeue that I say that it is a commaundement giuen by Paule to Timothie that the Bishop onely shoulde choose the minister And where I say that Hierome and others do expounde these wordes to Titus vt constituas oppidatim c. of the authoritie that Titus had in placing ministers in euery Churche you report them as thoughe I shoulde saye that Hierome proueth the righte of the election of the minister to belong to the Bishop onely where I haue ordeyning there you haue election And where I saye belongeth to the Bishop there say you belongeth to the Bishop onely Is this your sinceritie dare you accuse other men of corruption béeing guiltie of it your selfe almoste in euery lyne True it is that I am persuaded that bothe Timothie and Titus and consequently other Bishops haue authoritie to ordeyne and appoynt ministers alone which I haue also partly proued before and shall do partly hereafter as I haue occasion But yet all men that be not blinde may sée that I haue affirmed no suche thing in that part of my answere to the Admonition I haue always greatly estéemed the iudgemēts opinions of learned men howsoeuer you are persuaded of your own excellencie and dexteritie of wit yet am I content to submit my selfe to the opinions of other to whome I am in no respect comparable and then do I thinke my selfe to haue reason sufficient when I haue good authoritie of the scriptures and of learned writers Aristotle spake as a heathenish Philosopher of such prophane sciences as be grounded not vpon authoritie but vpon naturall and humaine reason but that that we professe is of an other nature for it is grounded vpon authoritie and for the authority sake to be beléeued what reason soeuer there is to the contrarie And surely I maruell what you meane so often to quarell with me for the alleadging of the authoritie of learned writers except it be bicause you haue not red so many your selfe or else that you would séeme your selfe to be the Author inuentor of those reasons which you haue borrowed of them which in déede is to winne the prayse of a good wit vnto your selfe and to robbe the learned writers of their iust commendation Therfore to answere you briefly in this matter I thinke authoritie in diuine matters to be the best Authority the best proofe in diuine matters reason whether it be of the scriptures thēselues or of such learned men as do rightly interpret y e same And I déeme it to be much more honestie in vsing their authorities to expresse their names that they may haue their iust cōmendation and the matter the more credite than vsing their authorities suppressing their names vaynely arrogantly to vsurpe as my owne that which I haue borrowed out of them I know Master Caluines interpretation vpon that place likewise what Musculus sayth of the same in his Common places titu de electione ministrorum but the words of the texte be playne And forasmuche as you make a distinction betwixte electing and ordeyning and saye that electing perteyneth to the people and ordeyning to the Bishop Pag. 41. lin 4. Likewise that the Apostle in this place speaketh of ordeining and not of electing you muste of necessitie confesse that by saying sicut tibi ordinaram as I appoynted Tit. 1. thee he meaneth onely imposition of handes and prayer as thoughe he shoulde say vt constituas opidatìm presbyteros suut tibi ordinaram sci per impositionem manuum orationem That thou shouldest ordeyne Ministers in euery citie as I appoynted thee that is to saye by laying on of handes and by prayer And thus doe learned Interpreters also expounde this place Neither is Musculus his meaning muche otherwyse as it may appeare to those that well consider his wordes especially if your distinction betwixt electing ordeyning holde and if Paule speake héere of ordeyning onely for in ordeining of Ministers the Apostles vsed laying on of handes as a ceremonie they prayed also Act. 14. and fasted But if you will haue the Apostle héere to speake of electing also then dothe he expounde him selfe when he sayth Si quis est inculpatus c. If any by vnreprouable Tit. 1. the husbande of one wyfe c. For howe can you otherwise make those wordes aptly to hang togither No doubt the Apostle gaue Titus an especial charge in ordeyning of Ministers to haue respect vnto these qualities of whiche charge he putteth him in minde when he sayth that he lefte him at Creta to ordeyne Ministers in euery citie as he appoynted him that is suche as be vnreprouable c. I knowe there be some that expounde this place thus also that for as muche as Paule when he lefte Titus in Creta did will him to ordeyne Ministers in euery citie nowe he putteth him in minde of the same by his letters and willeth him to doe according to his appoyntment that is to place Ministers in euery citie and surely this interpretation hathe good reason for béeing absent we commonly vse to put them in minde by letters to whome we haue committed any thing to be done of such things as we willed them to do when we were present with them I reuerence Master Caluin as a singular man and worthy instrument in Christes Churche but I am not so wholly addicted vnto him that I will contemne other mens iudgements that in
substance or being of baptisme whether Pa. 114. Sect. 1. he be minister or no that ministreth that sacrament Pag. 114. And this is that mysterie which you and your fellowes will not as yet openly vtter but craftily dissemble vntill you sée better oportunitie The truth is your intent is rebaptization and flat Anabaytisme But I haue declared sufficiently the vanitie of your collection in thys place and the weakenesse of your reasons touching this matter where you haue gyuen me more especiall occasion to speake of it Tract 9. Chap. 7. the. 7. Diuision T. C. Page 42. Sect. 2. 3. Seing then that the scripture doth teach this order that there should be no minister thrust vppon the Churche but by the consent thereof and reason perswadeth that ways and the vse of the Church hath bin so from time to time both in peace and in time of persecution both vnder tyrants and godly princes it cannot be without the high displeasure of almightie God the greate hurt and sore oppression of the church that one man should take this vnto him which perteyneth to so many or one minister which perteyneth to more than one especially where the aduise of learned ministers may concurre with the peoples election or consent Now if any man wil rise vp and say that this doctrine bringeth in disorder and by this meanes children boys and women should haue their voyces which is vnseemely all men vnderstande that where the election is most freest and most generall yet only they haue to do whiche are heads of families and that this is but a meere cauill to bring the truth in hatred which is vnworthy to be answered and requireth rather a Censor than a disputer to suppresse it Io. Whitgifte The scripture doth not teach any such order it hathe examples to the contrary it presribeth herein no certayne rule to be perpetuall there is better reason to the contrary if the diuersitie of the time and other circumstances be considered the Church also hath not at all times nor in all places vsed one forme and manner of election not in the Apostles time as it hath bin declared wherefore the Church is neyther hurte nor oppressed if the godly Magistrate alone do appoynt in it Byshops and take such order for admitting other inferioure Pastors as shall be thought to him most conueniente Neyther is God displeased with them for so doing if they séeke his glory therein the godly peace and quietnesse of the Church and haue respect to the end of the Apostles in appointing ministers But he is greatly displeased with those that make a necessitie where none is and trouble the Churches with their owne deuises and make contention for externall matters ¶ It is not necessarie that the people should haue interest in the election of ministers but the contrarie is conuenient Chap. 8. the. 1. Diuision Io. Whitgifte NOwe that you haue vttered all your authorities and reasons to proue that the people ought to haue interest in the electing of their ministers that I haue sufficiently I truste answered the same Lette it not be troublesome vnto you if summarily I collect my reasons that moue me to thinke the contrarie 1. And fyrst I will proue that there is no certaine forme of electing prescribed in Scripture but that the same is left frée for the Churches to appointe as shall bée thought most conuenient for their states and tymes 2. Secondly I will shewe that there hath bene greate diuersitie from tyme to tyme vsed in the Churche touching elections and that the people at all tymes and in all places haue not bene admitted thervnto 3. Last of all I will sette downe the reasons why the people haue bene debarred from such elections and why they ought still so to bée Touching the fyrst these be my reasons 1. Chryst whose factes and déedes we ought especially to followe did of himselfe Math. 10. Luke 10. alone without the consent of any call and choose his Apostles and lykewise the 70. disciples whome he sent to preache 2. The Apostles Acts. 1. altered this maner and forme for they presented two and the one of them was chosen by lotte 3. In the. 6. of the Actes they cleane altered this also for the people presented seuen to the Apostles and they were all chosen withoute lottes the Apostles also layde on their handes vpon them 4. In the. 14. of the Acts this forme is lykewise changed for Paule and Bar abas ordeyned ministers in euery citie without eyther presentment by the people or casting of lottes 5. In the. 13. of the Acts it is manyfest that Paule and Barnabas were sent onely by the Prophetes and Doctours without any consent of the people eyther giuen or required reade the beginning of the Chapter it is playne inough of it selfe 6. Paule sent Timothie and Titus and gaue them authoritie to ordeyne other 1. Tim. 5 2. Tim. 1. Tit. 1. So that it is certayne that here is no prescripte maner and forme appoynted to be obserued for euer séeing that the Apostles themselues did not bynd or tie themselues to anye suche rule which both M. Bullinger Zuinglius and Beza doe lykewyse confesse as I haue before declared And therefore M. Caluine as I tolde you before sayth that of that example in the first of the Acts no certayne rule can be gathered of electing and choosing ministers And M. Beza is of the same iudgement both for that example Act. 1. and the other also of Deacons Act. 6. as I haue lykewise declared before And in that booke of confession and. 5. Chapter he hathe this saying worthie to be noted Bycause the multitude is for the most parte ignorant and intractable and the Beza lib. con cap. 5. greater parte doth oftentymes preuayle agaynst the better not in a popular state lawfully appoynted are all things committed to the vnbridled multitude but certain Magistrates are appoynted by the consent of the people to rule and gouerne them if this wysedome be in worldely affaires muche more is a moderation to be had in those matters wherein men be oftentymes blynded Neyther is there any cause why any man of sounde iudgement should exclame that in such matters there is no place for pollicie except he can shew this policie wherof I speake to be repugnant to the word of God whiche I thinke he can not Hitherto M. Beza and he speaketh of the electors of Ministers And a little after he sayth that wee must not alwayes looke what the Apostles did in Ecclesiasticall pollicie Idem or in the gouernment of the Churche seeing there is so great diuersitie of circumstances that a man can not without preposterous zeale reduce all things in all places and tymes to one and the same forme but it is sufficient if respect be had to their ende and purpose whiche is not variable and that maner and forme vsed whiche leadeth therevnto c. Wherupon also I conclude that in the Scriptures there is no
Apostles or whiche are themselues notable Apostles for so is this name sometyme generally taken for those which are sent in embassage in the name of Christe Bullinger doth think y t they wer in the number of the. 72. disciples Peter Martyr vpon that Bull. in 16. Rom. place They are called notable amongst the Apostles not bicause they were of the colledge of the twelue Apostles but bicause as it is credible they had spread the Gospell through Martyr in 16 Rom. manie places and had planted many Churches And a little after speaking of your interpretation he sayeth This sense doth not displease me if the wordes themselues bee not contrarie thervnto So that he séemeth to doubte whether the wordes will beare your interpretation or no. Gualter and Bullinger also suppose it not to be vnlykely Gualter in 16. Rom. that they were the first planters of Christian religion at Rome And I can reade of none that doubteth whether they had any function Ecclesiasticall or no as you do I brought them in before pagina 47. to proue that some may be chosen to preach the woorde whiche haue no certaine cure and you to auoyde a direct answere haue shifted them of to this place and now you say that belyke I bring them in to proue that we may haue more Apostles which thing in déede they proue manifestly but I brought them in to declare that a man may be admitted to preach though he haue no certaine cure and to that you haue not answered There is nothing expressed in Scriptures whether the Apostles did choose any into the roome of Iames or no but I am persuaded they did not neyther was it necessarie For who euer sayd that there muste continually be twelue Apostles and neyther more nor lesse I tolde you before out of M. Caluine that this worde Apostle in his proper and vsuall signification comprehendeth only the twelue Apostles appoynted by Christe Wherfore in this signification there are nowe no Apostles neyther was there anye since that tyme but it signifieth also generally such as preache the Gospel in sundry places and although they go not through the whole worlde as the twelue did yet are they not bounde to any one place certainly And according to this signification there both hath be e and are Apostles Chap. 3. the. 5. Diuision T. C. Page 46. Sect. 2. 3. You aske further that if a man shoulde not preache before he haue a pastorall charge what they will answere vnto Philip and Epaphroditus wherby your meaning is belike that although they beno Pastours yet they may be Euangeli t s whiche goe aboute the countrey here there But this office is ceassed in the Churche as the Apostles is sauing that sometymes the Lorde doth rayse vp some extraordinarily for the building vp of the Churches whyche are falne down and pulled vp by the foundations as I haue shewed somwhat before And that it is ceased it may appeare by these reasons Fyrst for bicause all those that the Scripture calleth precisely Euangelistes which are only Philipan Timothie had their callings confirmed by miracle and so it is lyke that Titus and 〈◊〉 and pollos and if there were any other had their vocations after the same maner Act. 8. 39. confirmed but there is no suche miraculous confirmation nowe therefore there is no suche vocation 1 Tim. I. 18. Io. Whitgifte I haue declared both before by Scripture reason other authoritie that though the name of an Euangelist bée chaunged yet the office remayneth The Scripture no where calleth Tunothie an Euangelist onely 2. Ti. 4. S. Paule willeth him to doe 2. Tim. 4. the woorke of an Euangelist whiche is to preache the Gospell But of this matter I haue at large spoken in an other place It passeth to sée howe boldely you doe abuse the Scripture Where doe you reade that eyther 〈◊〉 or Philippe were ordeyned or confirmed Euangelistes by miracle There can be no such thing imagined in the. 39. verse Acts. 8. the wordes Act. 8. be these And as soone as they that is Philippe and the Eunuche were come oute of the water the spirite of the Lorde caught away Philip that the Eunuche sawe him no more c. Was this the miracle that confirmed Philip an Euangelist Lorde God what meane you This was rather done to confirme the Eunuche As for Philip it is manyfest that before this miracle he was an Euangelist for in the same chapter we reade that before this tyme Philip had preached in Samaria and conuerted them béeing before seduced by Simon the sorcerer and that he had also baptised them Moreouer he had conuerted the Eunuch and baptized him before this miracle was shewed wherfore it could not be a confirming of his Euangelistship That in the. 1. Ti. 1. vers 18. insinuateth that dyuerse Prophecies had gone before of Timothie whereby it was reuealed that he shoulde bée a woorthye Minister of the Churche or as Caluine sayeth which had commended him to the churche although there be sundry interpretations of that place more lyke to bée true than that But howe proueth it that hée was made an Euangelist by miracle First Timothie was nowe a Bishop as hereafter is proued Secondly here is no mention made of any calling to an Euangelist ship Thirdly a Prophecie is not a miracle Last of all though this were true bothe in Philip and Timothie as it is in neyther yet dothe it not followe that whosoeuer is called to be an Euangelist must also be confirmed by miracle for particular examples make no generall rule Timothie was ordeyned minister of the Gospell per impositionem manuum by the laying on of handes 1. Tim. 4. 1. Ti. 4. 2. Ti. 1. And therfore his vocation was ordinarie and néeded no such confirmation 2. Tim. by miracle Chap. 3. the. 6. Diuision T. C. Page 46. Sect. 4. Nowe agayne if there shoulde be any Euangelist who shoulde ordeyne hym you will saye the Bishop But I saye that can not be that the greater shoulde be ordeyned of the lesse For Heb. 7. the Euangelist is a higher degree in the Churche than is the Bishop or pastor And if he be so why hath he not his estimation here in the Churche about the Bishop or Archbishop eyther for the Archbishop is but a Bishop or why doth not he ordeyne Bishops as Tunothie and Titus did which were Euangelistes being one poynt of theyr office as Eusebius declareth Euseb. li. 3. cap. 27. Io. Whitgifte You doe but trie my pacience in so often offending in the petition of the principle For neyther can you proue an Euangelist to be an higher degrée in the Church than is a Bishop neyther is it true that Timothie and Titus were Euangelistes and not Bishops and in that poynt haue you all the writers both olde and newe stories and other one or two only excepted flatly against you besides the euident reasons that may be collected out of the
temper hys sermon or exhortation that it may profyte all and hurte none but suche as do not accordingly receyue it And therefore bothe these propositions are false th a man by preaching cannot profyte such as he knoweth not and that he cannot know them except he be perpetually resident with them Chap. 1. the sixte Diuision T. C. Page 48. Sect. 1. Moreouer as in the law the priests were ready in the temple to answer to al the doubts questions that any of the people should come to aske so the ministers in their seuerall parishes shoulde be ready to dissolue the difficulties that eyther one hathe with another or with himselfe touching the conscience for want whereof the consciences of many after doubtfull and daungerous wrastling with the deuill and wich dispaire are strangled And therevpon some hang or drowne themselues some other putting away all care or conscience of sinning and labouring to haue no sense nor feeling of their sinne close vp the wounde vnhealed which after eyther breaketh out more daungerously or else euery day more and more waxing senselesse and withoute feeling treasure vp vnto themselues the wrath of God against the day of iudgement For although the iudgement of God doth not for the time follow them so hard as them which through terroure of conscience vntaught and vncomforted kill themselues yet their estate is neuer the lesse daungerous therefore but rather more for asmuch as by a longer line of sinne drawne out they also pull vpon themselues a heauier conde nation Which things when they see oftentimes before their eyes that will consider it it is easy to iudge that it commeth to passe a great deale oftner than we can see Io. Whitgifte You do not referre me to any place where I might reade that the priests in the lawe were ready in the temple to answere all the doubts and questions that any of the people shoulde come to aske c. And I do not remember any suche place in the scripture excepte you meane that which is written in the. 17. of Deute verse 9. c. where there is no suche Deute 17. attendance mentioned but only the people are willed to bring their controuersies to the priests and the iudge If you meane the. 12. verse of that Chap. where it is said of the priest that he standeth before the Lord to minister there you haue also missed the quisshion For the meaning of that place is that whosoeuer presumptuously refuseth to harken vnto the Priest so long as the prieste is the true minister of God and pronounceth according to his word shall die c. The priest here had to do in ciuill and iudiciall matters togither with the iudge the priest was but in the chéefe place where iudgement was heard and not in euery particular congregation Wherfore if you would conclude any thing of this place it must be that the Priest must be ioyned with the Iudge and haue to do in ciuill and iudiciall matters and remaine in some chiefe place of the countrie where iudgements are to be heard You can by no meanes hereof conclude that euery particular congregation should haue a Pastor continually remayning with them There is not now any such general ignorance but that there may diuers be found able to answer all such doubts as you speake of sufficiently though the Pastor be absent The scriptures also are publikely red in euery mans house whiche are as Saint Paule saith 2. Ti. 3. profitable to teach to improue to correct to instruct in righteousenes 2. Tim. 3. that the man of God may be absolute being made perfect in all good works and as Chrysostome calleth them they be an apothecarie his shoppe where euery man may finde In. 3. Coll. remedy for his diseases Moreouer the sufficiencie of his curate may be suche that he shall be aswell able to answere all suche questions as if he himselfe were present Neyther are those cases you put vsuall God be thanked and they oftentimes happen where there is leaste cause to complaine of any absence of the Pastor Chap. 1. the. 7. Diuision T. C. Page 48. Sect. 1. When as therefore the only preaching of the word of God being continuall is a bond strong enough to hold the Pastor to his flocke then the enquirie of the maners behauioure of his flocke the priuate admonitions and consolations the dissoluing of doubts when any riseth as a three or foure fould cord ought much more to hold hym so that he which shall breake all these things willingly and wittingly cannot easily be thought to breake them as Sampson did his by the strength of God but rather by some other power not of God Io. Whitgifte I would not haue any man to thinke that I take vpon me to maintaine carelesse Care 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 be not defended slouthful pastors I speake only of such as be vigilant occupie themselues profitably in the Church visite their seueral flockes teach them to the satisfying both of the parishes and of their owne consciences also such I am persuaded may do as much in al those points here by you mentioned to the commoditie of their flocke being somtimes absent as if they were continually present besides the good they may do to the whole Church generally wherof they are also members and Ministers But I muse with what face you can thus seke to deface true pastors that do good in Some 〈◊〉 delight to face good 〈◊〉 that doe 〈◊〉 good the ues the Church though not so much as you thinke they should do seing you your self and a number mo do no good at all in any place but only range vp downe liue at other mens tables disturbe the Church thinke that you haue done your duties when you haue defaced all other mens doings I am verily persuaded that he which preacheth at his cure but one sermon in a yeare offendeth God lesse than you doe that haue forsaken your calling Chap. 1. the eyght Diuision T. C. Pag. 48. Sect. 1. Besides that S. Paul commaundeth that the pastor should be a paterne or example in al goodnesse 1. Tim. 4. holinesse of life vnto his flocke our sauiour Christ saith that when the she harde hath 〈◊〉 Iohn 10. forth his sheepe he goeth before them but if the Pastor be not amongst his flocke ▪ and haue not his conuersation there they can not follow him If they haue not the example before their eyes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 not make the like vnto it Therfore this commaundement also bindeth them to residencie amongst their flockes S. Peter willeth the Pastors of the Churches that they shoulde feede the flockes What flockes Not euery one but those which are committed to their faith or trust or which dependeth vpon them And S. Paule speaking to y e ministers or Bishops of Ephesus willeth them Act. 20. that they should take heede vnto the flockes ouer the which the holy Ghost had made them ouerseers where he
Coemeteria or Churcheyardes if you meane those places that lye next round about the Churches as they came in with the Monke they mighte well haue gone out with him for any profite eyther to the Churche or common wealth by them But if you meane as the Greke worde whiche is there vsed signifieth a fitte place where the bodies of men sleepe and are buri attending the tyme of their rising vp agayne in the iaste and generall daye of iudgement then these Churcheyardes were in the tyme of the Lawe and in the primitiue Churche in all times when there was any outwarde pollicie of the Churche and especially when the Churche had quietnesse and peace that it mighte without daunger * bury their dead in some certayne conuenient Luke 7. place therevnto appoynted whiche was for feare of the infection commonly as it maye Euseb. 7. be gathered in the fielde out of the Towne vnto the whiche vse and custome if it mighte be done lib. 13. cōuemently it were wel that we were restored both because it is more safe for the preseruation of the Townes and Cities in their health as also for that through the superstition which hath beene of beeing buried rather in the Churche than in the Churcheyarde in the Chauncell rather than in the Churche nearer the highe altar than further of the remnauntes whereof are in a greate number of mens heartes yet whiche mighte muche be helped by the bringing in of that custome agayne of burying the dead in some honest place out of the towne thereto appoynted Io. Whitgifte I haue tolde you my Author and if you will not credite one witnesse you shall That Denis deuided parishes haue moe Denis himselfe dothe testifie it in an Epistle that he writte to Seuerus a Bishop Damasus sayth the same so dothe Marianus Scotus Platina and others Polidor Uirgill dothe something playnely open the matter in these wordes Pol. Virg. lib. 4. c. 9. de inuent Circiter annum Domini 267. Dionisius tam presbyteris vrbis Romae quà m aliarum gentium templa coemiteria parochias quas dicunt diuisit Praeterea Episcopis dioecaeses distribuit mandauitque vt vnusquisque suis finibus ac limitibus contentus esset Parochias vt hoc demonstremus nostri appellant singula templa Dioecesis eorum territorium certis terminis distinctum c. About the. 267. yere of our Lorde Dionisius deuyded Churches Churcheyardes and Parishes as they call them aswell to the Priestes of Rome as of other nations furthermore he distributed Diocesse vnto Bishops and commaunded that euery one should content himselfe with his owne boūdes and limites our men call Parishes that we may make this playne the seuerall Churches of a Diocesse and their territorie limitted within certayne boūdes c. Wherefore take héede least you cast dust in your owne eyes blind your selfe for this of Denis is not denied of any that I can reade Where hath the Lord deuided nationall Churches into parishes and congregations Why doe you not note the place or where hath S. Paule the thing thoughe not the worde or name or what stories saye that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 was taken to be the same that we call nowe a parishe Héere is muche spoken but nothing proued This Denis was Bishop of Rome about the yere of our Lorde 263. whiche peraduenture How parishes are by man distinguished you haue not considered But to put all this matter out of doubte and to open that the ignoraunce whereof maketh you so hotte in this matter there was diuerse congregations and Churches in the Apostles time but yet was there not any limitation of place or certayne compasse of grounde certaynely appoynted for that was lefte to the discretion of man to enlarge or to contracte as it should be thought from time to time moste conuenient and who can once imagine or suppose that Christ or his Apostles did appoynt the limittes of Diocesse or Parishes or who knoweth it not that it is in the power of suche as haue authoritie to enlarge or diminishe Dioces or Parishes as they shall sée it expedient I knowe nothing to the contrarie but that the Parishe whose bondes and limits be but one myle compasse maye be made ten myle compasse and contrarywise It is well sayde of one that distributio gregis nunc extenditur nunc coarctatur pro hominis arbitrio The distribution of a flocke is sometime enlarged and sometyme made lesse according to the iudgement of man And this matter néedeth not to séeme so straunge vnto you for if you had bin so diligent a reader of the booke of Actes and Monumentes as you boast your selfe to be then mighte you haue read there that the Councell of Nice dyd appoynt to certayne Bishops the limittes and boundes of their Prouinces and Dioces But what should I labour in a matter so manyfest If by Coemiteria or Churcheyardes those places be ment that be about the churches where we vse to burie the dead as it is moste lyke they be then heare I no reason at all Why you shoulde in suche maner speake of them excepte you will plucke downe whatsoeuer hathe beforetyme béene appoynted be it neuer so auncient and the vse thereof conuenient and necessarie There is no doubt but by Coemiteria are ment places of buriall whiche because they haue béene as you confesse at all tymes certayne especially in the peace of the Churche it is méete that they shoulde so still remayne And for as muche as the places nowe vsed if they were appoynted by Denis as it is moste lyke are fitly appoynted and moste conueniently in moste places you haue alleadged no cause as yet why they shoulde be remoued but the selfe same cause that maye be in lyke manner vsed to remoue the Churche and whatsoeuer else hathe beene deuised by any man be it otherwyse neuer so necessarie conuenient or comely But I will not followe you in these digressions where you onely spende paper with wordes voyde of proofe If you quote Eusebius 7. Lib. 13. to proue that the place of buriall was in the fieldes there can be no suche thing gathered of his wordes and if you quote him to proue that the worde signifieth a place of buriall you goe about to proue that which no man denieth Of Ministers that can not preache and of giuing licences to preache Tract 6. Some may be Ministers that can not preache Chap. 1. the. 1. Diuision Admonition The tenth Then the Ministers were (*) Philip. 2. 20. 25. Preachers nowe bare readers Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 52. Sect. 2. 3. Colos. 1. 7. Luke 9. 2 Your places of Scripture alleadged to proue that Ministers Unapt profes of the Admonition were then Preachers proue not that all were then Preachers The place in the seconde to the Philippians 20. verse is this For I haue no man lyke mynded vvho vvyll faythfully care for your matters And in the. 25. verse But I suppose it
4. The place of (a) The place of Theodoret fal fied ▪ Theodoret cited by M. Bullinger maketh mention of a golden Cope and that vsed by Bishops of Hierusalem and solde by Cyrill a good Bishop whereby he declared sufficiently his misliking of suche garments in the ministerie of the Sacraments In the place the whiche he citeth out of Socrates there is one Sycinius an Nouatian Bishop is sayde to haue worne whyte apparell and therefore is reprehended as for too muche exquisitenesse and finenesse of apparell and the Bishop of Durisine in a letter he wrote alleadgeth the same place agaynst the surplice A man would hardly beleeue that master Bullinger should vse these places to proue a distinction of apparel amongst the Ministers We are not ignorant but that a cloake hath beene vsed of the Ministers in their seruice but that was no seuerall apparell of the Ministers but common to all Christians which with chaunge of their religion chaunged also their apparell as appeareth manifestly in Tertullian de Pailio As for the Petalum that S. Iohn ware I see not howe it can be proued to be like a Bishops iter For the cappe that S. Cyprian gaue the executioner argueth rather that it was the common apparell whiche was customably worne for else it woulde not haue done him so muche good As for his vpper garment whiche he gaue to his Deacon it was a token of his good wyll which he would leaue with him as the practise hath beene seene with vs and proueth nothing that it was any seuerall apparell As for the whytelinnen garment whiche he suffered in it can not seeme straunge vnto vs which haue seene the holy martyrs of the Lorde executed in Smithfielde and other places And it is not to be thoughte that S. Cyprian had so small iudgement that liuing in the tyme of persecution he would by wearing of some notable apparell from the rest as it were betray him selfe into the handes of his ennemies vnlesse all the Christians had done so too for clearer and more open profession of their faythe and greater detestation of the contrarie Religion as Tertullian and the Chrystians in hys tyme dyd by the wearing of a Cloake whiche reason maye bee also alleadged of the Petalum of Saincte Iohn Hom. 6. ad pop Antioch It is true Chrysostome maketh mention of a white garment but not in commendation of it but rather to the contrarie For hee sheweth that the dignitie of their ministerie their sa tie and crowne was in taking heede that none vnmeete were admitted to the Lordes supper not in going about the Churche with a whyte garment And it is easily to be seene by * Scripture fondly alleaged Salomon Eccle. 9. in his Ecclesiastes that to weare a whyte garment was greatly esteemed in the East partes and was ordinarie to those that were in any estimation as the wearing of blacke with vs and therefore was no seuerall apparell for the ministers or for to execute their ministerie in Io. Whitgifte The wordes of Theodoret be these But the tale which they had raysed of Cyrillus T eod lib. 2. cap. 7. did chiefly displease the * 〈◊〉 ▪ Emperour For wheras the most worthy king Constantine had for the honour of the Churche of Hierusalem giuen vnto Macarius Bishop in the same citie a holy garment precious and wrought with golde which he should weare when he ministred the holy Baptisme they reported that Cyrill solde it c. Héere you sée that Theodoret counteth it but a fable that Cyrill should make any suche sale and those that say he solde it declare that it was not for any disalowing of the vesture but for Sozo lib. cap. 25. necessitie of the poore in the time of famine as Sozo lib. 4. cap. 25. testifieth You deale with M. Bullinger as you doe with me that is you peruert his meaning and alleage that out of Socrates that he ment not keepe that in silence which maketh Lib. 6. cap. 〈◊〉 ▪ directly for this purpose Socrates there sheweth howe Sycinius béeing a Nouatian did weare white apparel when he was for the same reproued he answered that it was no where written that Priests shoulde weare blacke apparell and bad them proue by scripture that priests ought to weare blacke apparell Whereby it is playne that ministers in those days did weare black apparel were therby knowne and that Sycinius béeing an heretike refused so to do vsing the same arguments that you do scilicet that it is no where commaunded that Priests should weare suche kinde of vesture Wherfore the story is aptly alleadged by master Bullinger to proue a seuerall kinde of apparell and it insinuateth what manner of men those be that contemne the common order in suche matters and loue to be singular like vnto Sycinius the Nouatian heretike As for S. Iohn his Petalum you heare what these learned men saye who no doubte haue good grounde of their iudgement Neyther woulde Eusebius haue made any mention of it if it had not bin a kinde of apparell whereby S. John was knowne Euseb. lib. 3. cap. 31. The wordes of Eusebius lib. 3. cap. 31. be these Iohn whiche leaned vpon the brest of the Lorde beeing a Priest wore a leafe or thinne plate Whereby it is euident that this apparell was peculiar to S. Iohn in the respecte that he was a Priest That Cyprian his apparell was not vsuall and common for other men to weare it may appeare by this that the names of his apparell be expressed for that whiche he gaue to the executioner is called Birrus that is a thi ne plate and that which he gaue to the Deacon was called Dalmatica a garment with long sléeues as for the white linnen it is not there mentioned as any distinct kinde of apparell The wordes of Chrysostome doe manyfestly declare that then suche kinde of garment was vsed in the administration of the Sacramentes neyther doe his wordes tende any thing at all to the disalowing of it for they be spoken by the way of comparison and negatiues by comparison are not simple negatiues as I tolde you before but by the way of comparison and therefore when Chrysostome sayth that the dignitie of their ministerie c. was in taking heede that none vnmeete were admitted to the Lords supper not in going about the Churche with a white garment he dothe not disallowe going about the Churche in a white garment but he sayth that it is not in comparison of the other so greatly to be regarded If Salomon in that place ment any suche matter yet is it no profe at al for this that T. C. doth 〈◊〉 eage the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 fundly 〈◊〉 carelesly you alle e it for there was a great nūber of yeres betwixt Salomon his time and Chrysostomes and all kinde of customes much altered therfore I maruell what you meane to bring in Salomon to proue that the white apparel vsed by ministers of
see heere that you haue not losed the knotte but cut it For the authors of the Admonition obiect the place of Esay 30. and you obiect againe the places of Deuteronomy and of the Iudges this is to oppose sword against sword in stead that you shoulde haue first holden out your buckler and latched the blow of your aduersary As for Churches it hath bin answered that they haue a profitable vse and therefore very euill compared with the surplis whiche beside that it bringeth no profyte hurteth also as is before said Io. Whitgifte That wood that golde and that Oxe c. was not so necessary but that bothe God might haue bin serued and the temple builded without them and therefore that is no answere Things dedicated to idolls may be conuerted to gods honour For although gold wood oxen c. be necessary yet the golde and siluer founde in I richo the Oxe reserued by Gedeons father and wood that was consecrated to Baal was not so necessary for there might haue bin other golde siluer wood oxen c. prouided In that God commaunded these things to be done you know that S. Augustine in the epistle ad Publicolam in the words before rehearsed doth conclude a generall doctrine that things dedicated to Idolls may be conuerted to common vses and to the honoure of God For he vseth the selfesame places to proue the same and answereth that which may be alledged to the contrary out of Deuterono So doth it also the place of Esay quoted in the margent of the Admonition which answer if it will not satisfy you then do I further referre you to that which I haue also before alleadged out of M. Caluine writing vpon the. 23. of Exod. verse 24. But thys place of Esay and suche lyke are vnaptly alleadged agaynste the apparell nowe vsed being nothing of that nature that those thinges be whereof the Prophete in that place speaketh You say if our coapes and surplices c. should haue suche a purgation by fyr c. I pray you where reade you of any such purgation by fire of those metalls before they were admitted into the Lords treasure house And what purgation by fire coulde there be of the wood or of the oxe before they were vsed in the sacrifice and s ruice of the Lorde There is no such purging of the things taken in Iericho mentioned in that Chapter but the Iosu. 6. ver 24 contrary for thus it is written After they burnt the citie with fire and all that was therein only the siluer and gold and the vessels of brasse and iron they put into the treasure house of the Lorde and in the place before where Iosua is commaunded to reserue these things there is no commaundement of any such purging As your common answer is this that such things haue profitable vses and therfore may be reteyned though they were consecrated to Idols which is but a shift of your owne without any ground so I say that these vestures haue a decent and comely vse and be referred to order and therefore may be reteyned likewise although they were vsed in Idolatrie And if you shal answer and say that ther may be other things vsed mo t comely and decently then I reply that so there may be places as commodious as these Churches golde siluer wood c. as good and as profitable as that And if you obiect that they be not comely and decent then I say vnto you that it is your part and the part of all those that be obedient to submitte your selues to the iudgement of those that be in authoritie except they commaund such things as be contrary to the commaundement of God Chap. 7. the. 2. Diuision Ansvver to the Admonition Fol. 238. Sect. 2. 3. No man 〈◊〉 defile the nature form of things To be short no Deuill no Idoll no Pope can so defile the nature or forme not being contrary to the scriptures of any of Gods creatures that the libertie of a Christian man shuld be taken away in vsing and not vsing them Bucer And I say againe with M. Bucer that for any thing to be a note of Antichrist is not in the nature of any creature in itselfe for to that end nothing vvas made of God but it hangeth altogyther of consenting to Antichristes religion and the professing thereof The vvhiche consente and profession being changed into the consente and profession of Christianitie there can sticke in the thinges themselues no note or marke of Antichristes religion The vse of bells vvas a marke of Antichristianitie in our Churches vvhen the people by them vvere called to Masses and vvhen they vvere roong against tempests novv they are a token of Cstristianitie vvhen the people by them are gathered togyther to the Gospell of Christ and other holy actions c. T. C. Page 57. Sect. vlt. To be short saith M. Doctor when he reciteth me almost a whole side word for word as he hath cited before where he hath had his answer Io. Whitgifte Surely this iesting spirite was neuer in any of the Apostles or Martyrs of Christes Church that I can reade but to passe it ouer M. Doctors Short is very shortly answered the cause wherof I referre to the Reader Howsoeuer you iest out the matter you haue neither answered M. Doctors to be short nor that which is translated Chap. 7. the third Diuision Admonition They serue not to edification Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 238. Sect. 3. You say also that they do not edify If you say that they do not edify Ceremonies do not edify of themselues but tend to edification of themselues you say truly for only the holy Ghost on this sort doth edify by the ministerie of the word But if you say they edifye not at all that is that they do not tend to edifying as other ceremonies and things vsed in the Church as Pulpit Church kneeling singing and such like which be appointed for order and decencie do then speake you that whiche you are not able by sound arguments to iustify Io. Whitgifte To this not one word Chap. 7. the fourth Diuision Ansvver to the Admonition Pag. 238. Sect. vlt. Peter Martyr in his epistle written to M. Hooper thinketh that they do edify after a sort as other ceremonies do And so doth M. Bucer also in his epistle written to M. Alasco T. C. Pag. 57. Sect. vlt. After this he setteth himselfe to proue that they do edify and that firste by M. Bucers and M. Martyrs authoritie and yet in their words before alleadged there is not a word of edifying If he gather it of their words the answer is already made Io. Whitgifte I tell you it is in their epistles not in their words before alleadged M. Bucers worde Bucer be these Now if any Church iudge and haue experience such as I doubt not there are many at these days in Germany that the vse of such vesture bringeth some commendation to the holy
haue the giftes needful either for the gouernment of the church either else for the ministring of the worde and sacraments therefore these functions only are sufficient for the church For it is a superfluous thing to make more offices than ther be gifts to furnish them for so they that should haue them should rather be Idols than officers And therefore for asmuch as there is no gift which falleth not into some of these nnctions it is altogither a vaine and vnprositable thing to bring more offices and functions into the Church besides these Io. Whitgifte You saye there is no function but hath giftes apt and fitte to discharge it annexed and giuen In what sense euery function is sayde to haue giftes to discharge it vnto it If you meane that there is no function but there is giftes méete for it which God hath in his power to bestowe it is most true But if your meaning be that the giftes be so annexed to the function that of necessitie whosoeuer is called to that function muste also haue those giftes it is moste vntrue For experience dothe teache that euery man hath not giftes according to his function althoughe he bée lawfully there vnto called touching his externall calling for the in warde calling none knoweth but God himselfe and a mans owne conscience But you put mée in remembraunce of that whiche maister Bullinger writeth of the Anabaptistes lib. 5. cap. 1. wher he confuting the reason they vse to proue that Christians ought not to haue magistrates bicause Christians be so perfect of themselues that they can gouerne themselues and therfore néede not to be subiect to any other superiour authoritie saith thus Solent autem Anabaptistae libenter ea imaginari animo suo fingere quae nunquà m Bullinger lib. 5. aduersus anab cap. 1. fueru t neque extant aut posthaec futura sunt The Anabaptistes willingly vse to imagine and conceyue those things in their myndes whiche neuer hath bene nor are nor hereafter shall bee Euen so I say vnto you that in imagining the giftes perteyning to euery function so to be 〈◊〉 vnto the function that he whiche hath the one must of necessitie haue the other you phansie that whiche neuer was is or shall be and in so reasoning what do you else than vse that argument against superioritie in the Ecclesiasticall estate which the Anabaptists vse both against Ecclesiasticall Ciuill magistrates But I answere you as M. Bullinger answered them Excepte you were blinded with pertinacie you might easily see in your selfe iuste cause why there shoulde bee magistrates Idem and Superiours Moreouer God dothe not tie his giftes to any certayne and definite number of names or titles of offices but bestoweth them as it pleaseth him to the commoditie of his Church vpon such as be méete to vse them by what name or title soeuer they be called Wherefore this assertion of yours is eyther vnaduisedly auouched or else doth it conteyne some secrete poyson not yet vttered This being sayde to the ground that you haue layde thus I answere to your argument The deformed argument of T. C. it is in no mode and in déede to bad for any boye to vse in his Sophismes It is in forme the same with this Those things onely are sufficient for saluation which are conteyned in the Scriptures but al those things in the Aue Maria are conteyned in the Scriptures therefore those things only which are in the Aue Maria are sufficient to saluation Or this those onely are men which are indued with reason but all the Cosrardmongers in London are indued with reason therefore the Costard-mongers of London onely are men Besides this the Maior is particular which 〈◊〉 agaynst all forme of Syllogisme in the first or second figure to be shorte in your Maior you haue this woorde onely in your Medium and in the Minor is left out And therefore your conclusion followeth not except you had sayd in your Minor that only these functions reckened of S. Paule to the Ephesians c. haue all giftes needefull for the ministring of the woorde and sacraments and for the gouernment of the Church And yet if it were so your argument should be of no force being ex solis particularibus So that in your Syllogisme there is no manner of forme and therefore not woorthie of any other answere vntill it be better framed Although I could say vnto you that all those functions haue giftes necessary for them but not only those functions bycause there be other not mencioned of you which haue giftes necessary also and which the Apostle rehearseth 1. Corinth 12. So lykewise could I answere that moste of those functions according to your owne opinion be not perpetuall but for a time and therfore your reason is no good reason Likewise that the Apostle hath not made in eyther of these places any perfect diuision of offices which were euen at that time in the Churche For in the first to the Corinthians the. 12. chap. he leaueth out Euangelistes Pastors Byshops Deacons widdowes and in the fourth to the Ephesians Deacons widdowes workers of miracles c. So that he hath not lefte any perpetuall paterne of offices or names in eyther of those twoo places To conclude I could tell you that God hath lefte to his Church authoritie to appoynt both names and offices as shall be for the same most conuenient and profitable the which authoritie the Church hath also from the beginning vsed as in appoynting Catechistes Lectors and such lyke not superfluons but moste necessarie offices and profitable for the Churche in those times wherein they were Chap. 1. the. 31. Diuision T. C. Pag 66. Sect. 2. And so it may be thus reasoned If men may make and crect new ministeries they must eyther giue giftes for to dischardge them or assure men that they shall haue giftes of God whereby they may be able to answere them But they can neyther giue giftes nor assure men of any giftes necessary to discharge those functions therefore they may make or erect no new ministeries Io. Whitgifte First there is no new ministery erected But among the ministers some are appoynted to gouerne the rest and to haue the chiefe direction of them and such are chosen to that superioritie vpon whom God as farre as man can iudge hath bestowed giftes méete for the same Secondly it is not necessary that those that appoynt any office should be able to giue gyftes incident there vnto For then no man might appoynt any office It is therefore sufficient if he appoynt such Persons as God hath indued with giftes méete for such an office and such offices as there may be persones méete to execute which being obserued your argument is soone answered Chap. 1. the. 32. Diuision T. C. Pag. 66. Sect. 3. Last of all to conclude agaynst these made and diuised ministeries of Archbyshops and Archbeacons after this sorte (a) The 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 if men may
not saye that he ordeyned Bishops in euery Churche for his wordes be as I haue reported them But if he had so sayde it had not made any thing to your purpose but agaynst you For he appoynted them not all the Apostles nor the people and he gouerned and directed them as their Archbishop Chap. 2. the. 16. Diuision T. C. Pag. 70. Sect. 1. 2. These two Anacletus and Anicetus you say are (*) I say not only suspected but that they are not without iuste cause suspected suspected why do you say suspected when as they haue bin conuinced and condemned and stande vpon the pillorie with the cause of forgerie written in great letters that he whiche runneth maye reade Some of the Papistes them selues haue suspected them but those whiche maynteyne the truthe haue condemned them as full of poperie full of blasphemie and as those in whome was the very spirite of contradiction to the Apostles and their doctrine And doe you marke what you saye when you saye that these are but suspected Thus muche you say that it is suspected or in doubte whether the whole body of Poperie and Antichristianitie were in the Apostles time or soone after or no. For Clement was in the Apostles time and their scholer ▪ and so you leaue it in doubte whether the Apostles appoynted and were the authors of poperie or no. I thinke if euer you had read the Epistles you would neuer haue cited their authorities nor haue spoken so fauourably of them as you doe Io. Whitgifte I say that they are not without iust cause suspected whiche you haue left out and therefore it appeareth that you haue layde aside sinceritie I haue alleadged them with as little credite vnto them as eyther master Caluine or any other dothe You your selfe haue sundrie times in this Replie vsed as I haue sayde as forged authors as these be with lesse defacing of them Turpe est doctori c. I can shew good proofe that I haue read their Epistles but I am not disposed eyther to boast of my own reading or to deface other mens I leaue that to you Chap. 2. the. 17. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 66. Lin. 5. Sect. 1. 2. 3. But that notable and famous Councell of Nice muste be and is of all wyse and learned men nexte vnto the scriptures themselues reuerenced esteemed and imbraced That Councell celebrated Anno Domini 330. when as the Bishops of Rome were as yet learned Concil Nice and godly men doth not onely allow of the name but also of the office of Metropolitane Archbishop Archdeacon c. In the sixte Canon of that Councell it is thus written This Metropolitane Councell dothe determine him to be no Bishop vvhich is made vvithout the consent Metropolitani Episcopi of the Metropolitane In the. 13. Canon mention is made of a Patriarche and of an Archdeacon Archedeacon diuers times and his office there in diuers poyntes declared as it is also in the seuenth Canon of the same Councel In the. 25. Canon is named bothe Patriarche and Archebishop and Patriarke declared what authoritie they had in their Prouinces and in admitting of Bishops So is it likewise in the. 26. and. 27. Canons of the same Councell T. C. Pag. 70. Sect. 3. You come after to the Councel of Nice wherin I wil not sticke with you that you say it was holden the. 330. yere of the Lord when it may appeare by Eusebius his computation that it was holden Anno Domini 320. Io. Whitgifte I know that there is some varietie among the writers for the time of this Councell Uar tie concerning the time of y e Nicen Councell Musculus in his common places sayth that it was celebrated Anno Domini 313 the writers of the Magd. Historie centu 4. cap. 9. affirme as they say out of Eusebius that it was Anno Dom. 320. Master Foxe Tom. 1. fol. 12 thinketh that it was Anno Dom. 340. and so dothe Illyricus him selfe in his defense of the Magd. Historie thoughe he séeme to be of a contrarie iudgement in the Historie it selfe Pantaleon in his Cronographie placeth it Anno Do. 330. Some there be that say it was 324. c. So that to differ in the yere is no suche matter as deserueth any suche nippe But if all circumstances be well considered It will fall oute that Eusebius himselfe confirmeth that which I haue set downe touching the time of that Councell For Constantine began his raigne according to Eusebius his Cronicle Anno. 311. and this is noted also Cent. 4. fol. 62. But the Nicene Councell according to the sayde Centurie fol. 617. was holden Anno. 17. Constantini So that it must néedes be by their owne collection Anno. 328. or very neare But if we admitte Eusebius Cronicle for the beginning of Constantines raigne videlicet Anno. 311. it will fall out by Eusebius himselfe vpon the time which I haue appointed for Lib. 4. de vita Constantini he sayth that the Nicene Councell was holden Anno vicesimo imperij Const. So that it must néedes be Anno. 330. or in the beginning 331. at the vttermost but vnder it cannot be Chap. 2. the. 18. Diuision T. C. Pag. 70. Sect. 3. And here you take so great a leape that it is enough to breake the Archbyshops necke to skippe at once 300. yeares without anye testimonye of anye eyther father or storie of faythe and credite which maketh once mention of an Archbyshop Io. Whitgifte This leape shall not hurt him one whit For if there were no other testimonie but Archbyshops Metropolitanes long before the Nicene Councel Concil Niceni Can. 6. that Councell it were of sufficient credite and habilitie both to saue his necke and his body from all kinde of harme For séeing it is thus written in the sixth Canon of that Councell Antiqua consuetudo seruetur per Aegyptū Libyam Pentapolim vt Alexandrinus Episcopus horum omnium habeat potestatem quia vrbis Romae Episcopo parilis mos. est c. Let the auncient custome be kepte throughout Aegipt Libia and Pentapolis that the Byshop of Alexādria haue the gouernmēt of all these for the Byshop of the citie of Rome hath the same order Lykewise in Antioche and other Prouinces let euery Churche reteine hir priuileges But this is generally plaine that if any be made Byshop without the consent of his Metropolitane the great Synod hath decreed that he ought to be no Byshop And in the seuenth Canon Quia consuetudo obtinuit antiqua traditio vt Aeliae Can. 7. Episcopus honoretur habeat honoris consequentiam salua metropolis dignitate For as muche as custome auncient tradition hath bene such that the Byshop of Ierusalem be honoured let him haue honour accordingly not impairing the dignitie of the Metropolitane citie It is plaine that Archbyshops and their office were long before the Councell of Nice for else why should the Canon say Let the olde custome
Cornelius or Cyprian within their Prouinces may most aptly also be vnderstoode of euery Byshop within his Diocesse and therefore my L. of Sarum expounding this place speaketh of them both vnder these names of Prouince and Diocesse and so doth M. Nowell vnder the name of chiefe Prelate and Prouince and M. Foxe also vnder the worde Diocesse beyng plaine and euident that they allow of the office That learned man and godly Martyr M. Philpot as it is recorded in the booke of M. Philpot exam 5. Actes and Monumentes in his fifte examination answering this place of Cyprian obiected vnto him by D. Sauerson answereth most plainely in these wordes And nowe for the vnderstanding of that place you doe misconstrue it to take the high Priest onely for the Byshop of Rome and otherwyse than it was in his tyme. For there were by Nicene Councell foure Patriarches appoynted the Patriarche of Ierusalem the Patriarche of Constantinople the Patriarche of Alexandria and the Patriarche of Rome of which foure the Patriarche of Rome was placed lowest in the Councell and so continued many yeares for the time of seuen or eight generall Councels as I am able to shewe Therefore S. Cyprian writing to Cornelius Patriarch of Rome whome he calleth fellowe Byshop findeth hymselfe offended that certaine heretikes being iustly excommunicated by him as the Nouatian were did flie from his Diocesse which was their chiefe Byshop refusing to be obedient vnto him to be reformed to the Bishop of Rome to the Patriarch of Constantinople and there were receiued in communion of congregation in derogation of good order discipline in the Churche to the mainteining of heresies and schismes And that heresies did spring vp schismes dayly arise hereof that obedience was not giuē to the Priest of God nor once considered him to be in the Church for the time the Priest and for the time the iudge in Christes steade as in decree of Nicene Councell was appointed not meaning ☞ the Bishop of Rome only but euery Patriarch in his precinct who had euery one of them a colledge or a Cathedrall Church of learned priests in hearing of whom by a conuocation of all his fellow Byshops with the consente of the people all heresies were determined by the word of God this is the meaning of S. Cyprian hetherto M. Philpot. Thus the reader may easily perceiue how you haue dalied about this place of Cyprian and that this interpretation is not mine alone Chap. 3. the. 16. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 70. Sect. 1. 2. 3. Pag. 71. Sect. 1. And therfore Hierome writing vpon the first to Titus sayth that Hierome in the beginning a Bishop and a Priest was all one But after that there began to rise factions in Religion and some saide they helde of Apollo some of Paule some of Cephas and some of Christe it was decreed that one should be chosen to beare rule ouer the rest to whō the chiefe care of the Church should apperteine and by whom sectes and schismes should be cut of Here a man may reason thus The distinction of degrees began in the Church when men began to say I holde of Paule I holde of Apollo c. But this was in the Apostles time the. 1. Cor. 1. Therefore these distinctions of degrees beganin the Apostles time The same Hierom in his Epistle ad Euagrium teacheth that the cause why one was chosen amongst the Bishops to rule ouer the rest was in schismatis remedium ne vnusquisque ad se trahens Christi ecclesiam rumperet to meete vvyth Schismes leaste euery one according to his ovvne fansie should teare in peeces the Church of Christe and saith further that in Alexandria from S. Marke vnto Heracla and Dionisius Byshops the Ministers vsed to electe one among themselues vvhom they placing in a higher degree called a Byshop euen as an armie shoulde choose their Captaine or Deacons shoulde choose one of themselues vvhom they knevv to be painefull and call him an Archdeacon Haec Hieronymus In all these places Hierome doth not maynteine the authoritie of one man ouer the whole Church but thinketh it necessarie that in euery Prouince there be one to be chiefe ouer the reste for vnitie sake and for rooting out of contentiōs sects And therfore contra Luciferianos he sayth that vnlesse this superioritie were there would be as many schismes in the Church as there be priests T C. Pag. 79. Sect. 1. 2. The Hebrues do deriue the name of time of a verbe which signifieth to corrupt bycause in deede it doth corrupt all as the times are so are mē which liue in them that euē very good men cary the note of y e infection of the times wherin they liue the streame of the corruption therof being so vehement forcible doth not only driue before it light things but it eateth also weareth y e very hard stonie rockes therfore there is not to be looked for (*) This is your vsuall practise whē you cannot answere to cauill at the credite of the author such sinceritie at Hieromes hand Which we found in S. Cyprian considering y t he liued some ages after Cyprian what time Satan had a great deale more darkened y e cleere light of the Sunne of the Gospell than it was in S. Cyprians time For as those y t came neerest vnto the Apostles times bicause they were nearest the light dyd sce best so those that were further of from these lightes had vntill y e time of the manifestation of the sonne of perdition their heauens more darke cloudy consequently did see more diuiely which is diligently be obserued of y e reader both the better to vnderstand y e state of this question and all other controuersies which lye betwene vs and the Papistes And althoughe Hierome besides his other faultes myghte haue also in this matter spoken more soundly yet we shall easily perceiue y t he is a great deale further from either the title or office of an Archbishop or else from y e authoritie that a Bishop hath with vs than he is from the simplicitie of the ministerio which ought to be and is commended vnto vs by the word of God Io. Whitgifte This is but a poore refuge when you cannot answere to discredite the author it is euident that Hierome saythe nothing touching this matter but that which is both consonant to the scriptures confirmed by the practise of the Church long before his time as appeareth by that which is saide before And I pray you what difference is there betwixte that which Hierome speaketh in this place and that which Cyprian hath s id before For Cyp ian said That heresies schismes haue sprong do spring of this bicause the priest of God is not obeyed c. And bicause the Bishop which is one is set o er the church is through the proude presumption of some contemned c.
And Hierome saith that y e cause why among y e Bishops one was chosen to gouerne y e rest was to remedie schismes Do you not perceiue how these two fathers ioyne in one truthe directly affirme y e self same matter It is true y t time corrupteth therfore much more occasion is offered to appoint gouernment according to y e times least the corruptions preuaile get the vpper hand for this cause Hierome saith that vpon these corruptions of time the Church was constreined to appoint this order Chap. 3. the. 17. Diuision T. C. Pag. 79. Sect. 3. And here I must put M. Doctor in remēbrance how vnfitly he hath dedicated his booke vnto y e church which hath so patched it peeced it of a number of shreddes of the Doctors y t a sentence of A friuolous di from the matter the scripture either truly or fal ly alleaged is as it were a Phenix in this booke If he would haue had y e church beleue him he oughte to haue setled their iudgement grounded their faith vpon the scriptures which are y e only foūdations whervpon y e church may build Now he doth not only not giue thē ground to stand of but he leadeth them into wayes which they cannot follow nor come after him For except it be those which are learned besides haue the meanes abilitie to haue the bookes which are here cited which are y e least smalest portion of the Church how can they know that these things be true which are alleaged as I haue said if they could know yet haue they nothing to stay themselues vpon quiet their conscience in allowing y e which M. Doctor woulde so faine haue them like of Therfore he might haue much more fitly dedicated his booke vnto y e earned and riche which haue furnyshed lybraries Io. Whitgifte M. Doctor hath brought more scriptures thā you haue answered as in the sequele it wil fal out although as I said before in such matters y e scripture hath not expresly Tract 2. determined any certeintie but hath left them to the Church to be appointed according to the circumstances of time place and person as I haue proued both out of the scriptures learned writers intend to do hereafter more particularly whē I come to entreat of your Seigniorie If al other men should do as you haue done that is borrow the sayings of the Doctors out of other mens collections not read y e authors thē selues a few bokes wil serue with very smal charges they mightbe prouided The patches peeces shreds of Doctors that be in my boke are taken out of the Doctors thēselues they be whole sentences faithfully alledged But the shreds of doctors that your boke is stuffed with you haue borrowed of other you haue falsifyed thē cut them off by the half you haue fathered vpon them that which is not to be founde in them and the words of late writers you haue set downe vnder the name of ancient fathers and the scriptures you haue falsely alleaged and vntruely translated I would not gladly haue burst out into this accusation at this time being from the matter but that you haue vrged me therevnto Chap. 3. the. 18. Diuision T. C. Page 79. Sect. 4. 5. 6. Hierome saith y e at the first a Bishop an elder which you call a priest were all one but afterward through factions schismes it was decreed y t one should rule ouer y e rest Now I say against this order that y e Bishop should beare rule ouer all y e which our sauiour Christ saith vnto y e Phariseis from y e beginning it was not so therfore I require that y e first order may stand which was Contr Prax. that a Bishop elder were all one And if you place so great authoritie against the institution of God in a mortall man heare what Tertullian saith vnto you That is true whatsoeuer is first and that is false whatsoeuer is latter Hierome you confesse y t this was first that y e Bishop was all one with y e elder first also by y e Tertullians meaning falsified word of God thē I conclude y t that is true You both do likewise confesse y t it came after that one bare rule ouer the rest then I conclude y e that is false for all that is false that is latter Furthermore Hierome in the same place of Titus saith after this sort As y e elders know themselues to be subiect by a custome of the Churche vnto him that is set ouer them so the Byshops must knowe that they are greater than the elders rather by custome than by any truth of the instatution of the Lord and so they ought to gouerne the Church in common Io. Whitgifte It followeth after in my answere to the Admonition that there was superioritie among the ministers of the word e ē in the Apostles time which I 〈◊〉 by the riptures other testimonies it is also 〈◊〉 that great factions schi mes did 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 the Church euē in the Apostles time therfore most like these that Icrome sp keth of to haue bin thē determined The which to be true his words ad 〈◊〉 touching y e church of Alexādria doth euidently declare for he saith y t this order was kept 〈◊〉 frō S. Marke But admit these were not true which you wil neuer be able to proue yet your argument is of no force the place of Tertullian is not vnderstanded for Tertullian in that boke after he hath repeated the rule of faith which is to beleeue in 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ▪ one God and in his sonne Iesus Ch ist c. he saith that this rule hath come from the beginning of the Gospell euen before all former heretikes muche more before 〈◊〉 that was but yesterdaye as well the posteritie of all heretikes as the verye noueltie of 〈◊〉 which was of late will proue VVhereby iudgement may hereof be indifferently gyuen against all heresies that that is true whatsoeuer is first that count rfeit whatsoeuer is last Wherby it is e ident that Tertullians rule is to be vnderstanded in matters of saluation 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is to be 〈◊〉 s ode 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 gin veland of faith not in matters of ceremonies kinds of gouernment which thing he himselfe in plaine words declareth in his booke de virginibus velandis where in lyke maner after he hath recited this rule of faith he addeth this lawe of aith remaining other things of discipline conuersation admit newnesse of correction the grace of God working and going forward euen to the end So that Tertullian thinketh that matters of ceremonies and discipline may be altered y e rule of faith remaining 〈◊〉 notwithstanding his former rule If you will not haue this to be the meaning of Tertulliā then will I reason thus The reason of the 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉
rest to supplie that place and office which now the Archbishop hath Chap. 3. the. 23. Diuision T. C. Pag. 80. Sect. 2. And if any can shew me one man in these tymes of whom we may be assured that he will pronounce The Archbishop hath 〈◊〉 to thanke you for your gentlenesse the truth of euery question which shall arise he shall make me somwhat more fauorable to the Archbishop than presently I am For although there were found one such as could not erre yet I could not consent that the matter shoulde lie only vpon his hande seeing that the Apostles which could not erre in these matters would not take that vpon them seeing that by that meanes the iudgement of the Church should be contemned and further for that the iudgement of one man in a controuersie is not so strong to pull vp errors that are rooted in mens minds as the iudgement and consent of many For that the iudgement of many is very apt either to confirme a truth or to confute falsehoode it is euident that S. Paule doth holde forth as it were a buckler agaynst the frowardnesse of certaine the authoritie of the Church Io. Whitgifte You take great paynes in fighting without an aduersarie and bicause otherwise as it should séeme you lacke matter to lengthen your booke therfore you deuise matter of your owne to striue agaynst For who hath affirmed that which you so earnestly séeke in this place to ouerthrowe It hath bene tolde twise alreadie that neyther of our Archbishops taketh vpon him to compounde controuersies in doctrine by himselfe alone neyther is it their office so to doe The Archbishops authoritie in this The authoritie of Archbishops in our Church Church is to prouide by lawfull and ordinarie meanes that vnitie be obserued in the Church that contentions and schismes be cut off that the religion and orders of the Church by the whole consent of the Church agréed vpon be mainteyned that euery Bishop in his prouince doe his duetie according to the same this is his principall charge as I take it agaynst the which you haue not as yet spoken any thing but deuise with your selfe to improue that which no man affirmeth this is but verie shifting and dallying Chap. 3. the. 24. Diuision T. C. Pag. 80. Sect. 3. Furthermore if this distinction came vp in the Apostles tyme and by them how commeth it to passe that they neuer mention it nay how commeth it to passe that euen S. Paule in that very Epistle where these voyces are founde I holde of Paule I of Apollo I of Cephas whiche are 1. Cor. 14. sayde to be the cause of the Archbishop ordeyneth a cleane contrarie to this that M. doctor commendeth (a) A place farre se ched to improue the office of the Archbishop For when two or three Prophets haue expounded the scriptures he appoynteth that all the rest that are there should iudge whether they haue done well or no. Io. Whitgifte I contend not that the name of the Archbishop was in the Apostles tyme but you haue not yet proued that the office was not then or that there was then no superioritie among the Cleargie which you notwithstanding denie Your negatiue reason proueth nothing as you haue bene oftentymes tolde The place in the. 1. Cor. 14. is farre fetched it speaketh not of gournment and T. C. faulteth with the Admonition in vnapt allegations of scripture discipline or externall pollicie of the Church but of expounding the Scriptures And what a reason cal you this S. Paule saith 1. Cor. 14. Prophet duo aut tres loquantur caete i dijudicent Let two or three Prophets speake and let the other iudge Ergo he speaketh agaynst an Archbishop Surely if the Authours of the Admonition had not bene detected of their vnskilfull allegations of Scriptures I shoulde haue had as much a doe with you in that poynt for euen of these fewe which you haue vsed there is not almost one rightly and truely applied S. Paule in that place to the Corinthians sheweth that the hearers must iudge of the doctrine of the Prophets whether it be according to the worde of God or no as those did whiche are commended in the. 17. of the Actes but what is this to an Archbishop Chap. 3. the. 25. Diuision T. C. Pag. 81. Sect. 1. And howe commeth it to passe that S. Paule being at Rome in prison and looking euery day when he shuld giue vp his last breath cōmended vnto the Church a perfect an absolute ministerie Ephe. 4. Howe oft hath this beene repeated standing of fiue partes wherein he maketh mention not one worde of an Archbishop and sayeth further that that ministerie is able to enterteyne the perfect vnitie and knitting togither of the Church Do not all these things speake or rather crie that there was not so much as a step of an Archbishop in the Apostles times Io. Whitgifte How oft haue you alledged this place to y e same purpose If I should do the like you The place Eph. 4. no per ect pater would bestow one whole side in iesting at it But I answere you as I did before In this place the Apostle as you confesse reciteth offices that be but temporall as Apostle Prophet c. he leaueth out those offices which you say are perpetuall as Deacon and Senior Therefore it is no such perfect patterne as you would haue it And if you say that these offices are conteyned vnder the names of Pastors and Doctors then I say that Bishops and Archbishops be so in like maner If you will haue the Apostle to speake of these ministeries onely which are occupied in the worde and sacraments then I say vnto you that an Archbishop is a name of Iurisdiction and gouernment Archbishop a name of iurisdiction not of a new ministerie committed to a Bishop Pastor or Minister of the worde as necessarie for the good gouernment of the Church but not as any new ministerie as you vntruly both now and also before haue surmised But to let all this passe in those offices whiche S. Paule here reciteth is the office of an Archbishop conteyned though it be not named and namely vnder the Apostles and Pastors as I haue before shewed Chap. 3. the. 26. Diuision T. C. Pag. 81. Sect. 1. And if you will say that the Apostles did ordeyne Archbishops as you haue indeed sayd and do now againe when as there is not one worde in the writings of them I pray you tell vs howe we shall hold out of the Church the vnwritten verities of the Papists For my part if it be true that you say I cannot tell what to answere vnto them For our answere is to them the Apostles haue left a perfect rule of ordering the Church written and therefore we reiect their traditions if for no other cause yet bicause they are superfluous and more than need Now this degree of Archbishop being not only
of this Churche of Englande Master Foxe In the ecclesiasticall estate vve take not avvay the distinction of ordinarie degrees suche as by the Scripture be appoynted or by the Primitiue Churche allovved as Patriarkes or Archebishops Bishops ministers and deacons for of these foure vve especially reade as chief in vvhich foure degrees as vvegraunt diuersitie of office so vve admit in the same also diuersitie of dignitie neyther denying that vvhich is due to eache degree neyther yet maynteyning the ambition of any singular person For as vve giue to the minister place aboue the Deacon to the Bishop aboue the minister to the Archbishop aboue the Bishop so vve see no cause of inequalitie vvhy one minister should be aboue another minister one Bishop in his degree aboue another Bishop to deale in his dioces or an Archbishop aboue an other Archbishop and this is to keepe an order duely and truely in the Church according to the true nature and definitiō of order by the authoritie of Augustine lib. de Ciui Ordo est parium dispariumque rerum sua cuique loca tribuens dispositio Hitherto M. Foxe Nowe let the indifferent Reader iudge whether these offices be straunge and vnheard of in the Church of Christ or no. T. C. Pag. 90. Sect. vlt. M. Doctor closeth vp this matter with M. Foxe but eyther for feare that the place shoulde be founde that there might be answere or for feare that M. Foxe shoulde giue me the solution which hath giuen you the obiecion he would neyther quote the place of the booke nor the booke it selfe he hauing written diuers You can not speake so muche good of M. Foxe whiche I wyll not wyllingly subscribe vnto and if it be any declaration of good wyll and of honor that one beareth to another to reade that which he writeth I thinke (*) I maruel 〈◊〉 place 〈◊〉 cape so 〈◊〉 a r ader I haue read more of him than you For I haue read ouer his booke of Martyrs and so I think dyd neuer you for if you had read so diligently in M. Foxe as you haue beene hasty to snatche at this place he woulde haue taughte Pag. 78. of the booke of Actes you the forgery of these Epistles whereout you fetche your authorities and woulde haue shewed you that the distinguishing of the orders of Metropolitanes Bishops and other degrees whiche you say sometimes had their beginnings in the Apostles tymes sometimes you can not tell when were not in Higinus tyme whyche was 180. yeares after Christe I (a) A suspicious head perceyue you feare M. Foxe is an enimie vnto your Archbishop and primate and therfore it seemeth you went about to corrupte him with his prayse and to seeke to drawe him if it were possible vnt the Archbishop and if not yet at the least that he would be no enimie if he woulde not nor coulde not be his friend You make me suspect that your prayse is not harty but pretended bicause you doe so often and so bitterly speake agaynst all those that wyll not receyue the cappe and surplesse and other ceremonies whereof M. Foxe declareth his great misliking For answere vnto the place bicause I remember it not nor meane not to reade ouer the whole booke to seeke it I say first as I sayde before that there may be somethyng before or after whych may giue the solution to this plac especially seeing M. Foxe in another place page 96. prouing the Epistles of Stephanus to be counterfeyt he vseth this reason because the fyft canon of the sayd Epistles solemnly entreateth of the difference betweene Primates Metropolitanes and Archbishops which distinction sayth he of titles and degrees sauour more of ambition than persecution Moreouer I saye that M. Foxe wryting a storie dothe take greater payne and looketh more diligently to declare what is done and in what tyme and by whome than howe iustly or bniustly howe conueniently or inconueniently it is done Last of all if any thing be spoken there to the hinderance of the sinceritie of the Gospell I am well assured that M. Foxe whyche hathe traueled so muche and so profitably to that ende will not haue hys authoritie or name therein to bryng any preiudice Nowe wyll I also ioyne wyth you and leaue it to the iudgemente of the indifferent Reader howe well out of the Scriptures Councels wryters olde and newe you haue proued eyther the lawfulnesse at all of the names of Archbishops Patriarkes Archdeacons Primates or of the lawfulnesse of the office of them and of Bishops which be in our times Io. Whitgifte If you had so diligently read M. Foxe his booke of Martyrs as you boast and brag that you haue done then could not this place haue béene so straunge vnto you for it is in the 20. page of his first tome where he hath an whole treatise touching the supremacie of the Bishop of Rome and speaketh of this matter at large The words be his own and expresse his owne iudgement of these degrées offices in this Church of Englande It had béene some token of modestie so to haue commended your selfe and your owne reading that you had not depraued any other mans But to cōmend your selfe and to detract from an other is eyther arrogant foolishnesse or foolishs arrogancie I can bring foorth good testimonies of my reading of these bookes thoughe I make no vragge thereof or vayne comparisons I haue alleaged none of these Epistles other wyse than M. Foxe him selfe hathe alleaged them M. Foxe hathe shewed him selfe in the place by me cited out of his booke to be no 〈◊〉 eyther to Archbishop Priuate or Bishop for I am sure he speaketh as he thinketh He is not a man like to be corrupted with prayse and therefore in so saying you doe vs bothe great iniurie You may not iudge my heart I thinke of M. Foxe as of one that I loue and reuerence I will not vtter all that I could least I should séeme to flatter There is nothing that goeth eyther before that place or followeth after it that can procure any other sense to his wordes than that in the which I haue set them down I doe not alleage M. Foxe for the originall of these names and offices but for the allowance of them These words that I haue recited are not spoken in the waye of any hystorie but of the order of gouernment of this Church which he alloweth and I dare saye for him that he hathe héereinspoken nothing whiche he thinketh maye hurte the 〈◊〉 of the Gospell And I am right well content to let the godly Reader iudge of bothe our proofes ¶ The defense of the answere of Master Iewell concerning Archbishops c. agaynst the vnreuerende Replie of T. C. Chap. 4. the first Diuision T. C. Pag ▪ 91. Sect. 1. And for as much as I haue purposed to answere in one place that which is scattered in diuers I 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 halfe a sheete of 〈◊〉 ▪ which is annexed of
confesse to haue bene in these offices which notwithstanding you speake of your owne head without any warrant of Gods worde argueth that there maye be superioritie among the ministers of the Churche And the degrées of honour that you acknowledge to haue bene among the Apostles quite cast th downe your confused qualitie As for your saluing the matter in saying that this chiefetie among the Apostles consisted not in hauing anye superioritie aboue the reste but in laboring c. it may please vnskilfull persons but it will not satisfie men of discr tion and wisdome For it is to be thought that euery one of y e Apostles laboured in their calling to the vttermost of their powers that they suffered whatsoeuer God laide vpon them that they had all giftes most aboundantly necessarie for their functions Wherfore in all these things there was summa aequalitas and no m n sought such preheminence or receyued it being offered vnto him but according to their owne doctrine euery one thought of another better than of 〈◊〉 Wherfore it could not be for this respect but it was for order pollici to a oyde confusion I haue tolde you before why you labour so muche to haue honour and dignitie distributed according to the excellencie of gifts for then you perswade your selfe that the chiefetie would light on your owne necke but you may peraduenture be deceiued Chap. 6. the. 8. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 123. tovvards the ende And nowe I adde that you desire this equalitie not bycause you Why y e Admonitors desire equalitie would not rule for it is manifest that you seke it most ambitiously in your maner but bycause you contemne and disdaine to be ruled and to be in subiectiō In deede your meaning is as I said before to rule and not to be ruled to do what you list in your seueral cures without controlement of Prince Bishop or any other And therefore pretending equalitie most disorderly you seeke dominion I speake that I know by experience in some of you T. C. Pag. 100. Sect. 2. 3. Now whereas he saith that we desire to pull the rule from others that the rule might be in our handes and we might doe what we list and that we seeke to withdrawe our selues from controlement of Prince and Byshop and all first he maye learne if he will that we desire no o r authoritie than that which is to the edifying of the Churche and whiche is grounded of the wo e of God which if any Minister shall abuse to his 〈◊〉 or ambition then he ought to abyde not ely the controlment of y e other Ministers yea of the brethren but also further the punishment of the Magistrates according to the quantitie of the fault And seyng you charge the brethren so sore you must be put in remembrance that thys vnreasonable authoritie ouer the rest of the ministers and cleargie (*) An vntruth ▪ for the lawfull authoritie o Bishops and Archbyshops was long be ore came to the Bishops and Archbyshops when as the Pope did exempte his hauelings from the obedience subiec on and iurisdiction of Princes Nowe therefore that we be readie to giue that subiection vnto the prince and offer our selues to the princes correction in things wherein we shall doe amisse doe you thinke it an vnreasonable thing that we desire to be disburdened of the Bishops and Archbishops yoke which the Pope hath layde vpon our neckes Io. Whitgifte Your answere maketh the matter more suspicious for this authoritie you speake of Excessiue authoritie is sought vnder pretence of equalitie which you say ▪ is to the edifying of the Church and grounded of the word of God is as it pleaseth you to interprete it For what so euer you phansie and whatsoeuer authoritie you vsurpe shall haue the same pretence and if the Prince seeke to restraine you or to breake your will you and your Seniors will excommunicate hir if she be of your parishe Fu thermore the greatest preeminence she can haue is to be one of your seigniorie and then must M. Pastor be the chiefe and so in authoritie aboue y e Prince and consequently a Pope but of this more in due place shal be spoken This authoritie which the Bishops and Archbishops now exercise came first from 〈◊〉 authoritie of Byshops Archbishops came not from the 〈◊〉 the Apostolicall Church then from the example of the primitiue Churche for y e space of fiue hundred yeares after the Apostles time Thirdly from the Councels of Nyce Antioche Constantinople and all the beste and purest Councels that euer were And last of all from the authoritie of the Prince and by the consent of this whole Churche and Realme of England therefore not from the Pope who hath rather diminished it by taking all to himselfe than in any respect encreased it Wherfore you also in exempting your self from the authoritie and iurisdiction of the Archbishop and Bishop resist God in his Ministers the Prince in hir officers and the lawes of the Church Realme in their executors And as for your protested obedience it is so enwrapped with conditions and prouisoes as in other places of your booke more plainely appeareth that when it should come to the triall if your platforme were builded it woulde proue as little as uer the Popishe Byshops was in their greatest pride Chap. 6. the. 9. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 124. Sect. 2. The place in the first to the Coloss. vers 1. is this Paul an Apostle of Iesus Christ by the vvill of God Timotheus our brother Surely your minde was not of equalitie I thinke when you quoted these places to proue it But it is your vsuall maner without al discretiō iudgement to dally play with the scriptures For what sequele is there in this reason Paule calleth Timothie brother Ergo in all respectes there must be equalitie As though there were not distinction of degrees euen among brethren Io. Whitgifte Magis mutus 〈◊〉 piscis and by his silence the ouersight confessed Chap. 6. the. 10. Diuision Admonition And (g) Lu. 22. 25. 26. 1. P t. 5. 3. 4. 5. Math. 20. 25. 26. Math. 23. 8 11. 12. Gala. 2. 6. Hebr. 5. 4. Lu. 16. 25. Eze. 34. 4. 2. Cor. 1. 24. as the names of Archbishops Archdeacons Lord bishops Chancelours c. are drawen out of the Popes shop togither with their offices So the gouernment which they vse by the life of the Pope which is the Canon law is Antichristian and diuelishe and contrarie to the scriptures Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 208. Sect. 1. Both of the names and also of the offices of Archbyshops Archdeacons Scriptures wreasted Lorde Byshops c. I haue spoken before sufficiently and fully answered those places quoted in this margent sauyng the. 2. to the Galat. the. 5. to the Hebrues Ezech. 34. 2. Cor. 1. for these places haue bene founde out since and thoughte meete
Ergo Archbishops c. and their offices came out of the Popes shop you shoulde first proue that which ought to be your Minor T. C. Pag. 100. Sect. 4. But that I runne not backe to that I haue hādled before I will not here so much rge y ◠place A cleanly shifte as I will not doe also y t of the Hebrues which followeth yet the argument is stronger than that M. Doctor could answere For if the writer to the Hebrues do proue our Sauiour Christs vocation to be iust and lawfull (*) Vntrue bicause his calling was conteined in the scriptures as appeareth in y e 5. and. 6. verse then it followeth that y e calling of the Archbishop which is not comprehended there is neither iust nor lawfull For that no man sayth the Apostle taketh the honour vnto himself but he that is called of God c. But I say hauing before sufficiently spoken of the reasons which ouerthrow the Archbishop I wil let passe these and other places answering onely that which M. Doctor bringeth for the establishment of them Io. Whitgifte This is a cleanly handsome shift to auoide y e defense of these grosse vnapt allegations The 〈◊〉 proueth not y t which is deuyed of scriptures I haue answered the argument grounded vpō the. 5. to y e Hebrues and required the proofe of the minor whiche is this that Archbishops Lordbishops c. intrude them selfes into their offices without any lawfull calling whiche bothe they and you haue omitted and therefore I haue answered sufficiently vntill you haue proued that which is by me denied It is not true that the Apostle to the Hebrues proueth the vocation of our sauiour Iesus Christ to be iust and lawfull bicause his callyng was conteyned in the scriptures he onely sheweth by euident testimonies of the Scriptures that Christ dyd not intrude hym selfe but was called of God And if you will haue no man to execute any function in the Churche but him that hath suche speciall and personall testimonies of the scriptures to shewe for him selfe I sée not howe any man can iustifie his calling It is therefore sufficient if his calling be generally conteyned in the Scripture as al lawfull and ordinary functions are euen the offices of Archebishops and Lordebishops c. Chap. 6. the. 12. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 209. Sect. 1. 2. 3. Pag. 210. Sect. 1. In the. 16. of Luke verse 25. it is thus written But Abraham sayd Scriptures wrested sonne remember that thou in thy life time receyuedst thy pleasures likevvise Lazarus paynes novve therfore is he comforted and thou arte tormented The riche glutton in his lyfe receyued pleasure and therefore was after in hell tormented Lazarus receyued paynes and after was comforted Therefore Archbishops c. and their offyces come oute of the Popes shoppe These fellowes neyther care for maior minor nor conclusion so they saye something and vaynely paynt their margent with shamefully abusing the scriptures The words of Ezech. Chap. 34. verse 4. be these The vveake haue ye not strengthned the sicke haue ye not healed neyther haue you bound vp the broken c. In the which place the Prophet speaketh agaynst suche Kinges Magistrates and rulers as despise the people of Abuse of offices condemned not the offi es God vse them selues cruelly towards them This dothe aswell condemne Kings Magistrates as it doth Archbishops although in deede it condemneth no office or superioritie but the abuse of the same that is the man abusing the office and not the office it selfe In the. 2. Cor. 1. verse 24. the Apostle speaketh thus vnto them Not that vve haue dominion ouer your fayth but vve are helpers of your ioy for by fayth you stande S. Paule heere sayth that he hathe no authoritie to alter true religion or to rule ouer their consciences but how proueth this that Archbishops c. came out of the Popes shoppe Paule sayth that he had no power ouer the consciences of the Corinthians therfore Archbishops c and their offices were drawne out of the Popes shop If you had beene more studious when you were a Sophister if euer you were any you would haue learned better to frame an argument and haue had better iudgement in the sequele of the same If you had not troubled your margent with these quotations you had lesse vttered your folly So muche of the Canon lawe as is contrarie to the Scriptures Canon lawes not altog ther condemned is Antichristian and diuelishe But there be diuers Canons in it very good and profitable whiche may well be reteyned Good lawes may be borrowed euen of Turkes and heat henishe Idolaters and why not of Papists also I haue tolde you before that the thing it selfe is to be considered not the inuentor if it be good and profitable it may be vsed whosoeuer dyd inuent it Io. Whitgifte Not one worde answered to all this Chap. 6. the. 13. Diuision Admonition And as safely may we by the warrant of Gods worde subscribe to allowe the dominion of the pope vniuersally to reygne ouer the Church of God as of an archebishop ouer a whole prouince or a Lorde bishop ouer a Dioces whych conteyneth many shires and parishes For the dominion that they exercise the Archebishop aboue them and they aboue the rest of their brethren is vnlawfull and expresly forbydden by the worde of God Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 210. Sect. 2. In that you say that you may as safely by the warrante of Gods worde subscribe to allowe the dominion of the Pope vniuersally to reygne ouer the Church of God as of an Archbishop ouer an whole Prouince c. You expresse but your heate I suppose you thinke not so can the Pope aswell gouerne the whole Churche as the Archbishop one Prouince and a Lord bishop one Dioces Is one king aswell able to gouerne the whole worlde as he may be to gouerne one kingdome Or bicause you can rule one parishe well can you therefore in lyke manner well gouerne twentie parishes Surely an Archbishop may well gouerne one Prouince An archebyshop may gouerne one pro uince but the Pope not all the worlde but the Pope can neuer well gouerne the whole Churche And yet an Archbishop hath not the charge of gouernment ouer the whole Prouince generally but onely in cases exempted and therfore may do it more easily T. C. Pag. 100. Sect. 4. He sayth therefore afterwarde that although one man be not able to be Bishop ouer all the Churche yet he may be Bishop ouer a whole Dioces or of a prouince Nowe if I woulde saye the one is as impossible as the other and for proofe thereof alleage that whiche the philosophers say that as there are no degrees in that whych is infinite so that of thinges whiche are infinite one thyng can not be more infinite than another so there are no degrees in impossibilitie that of thyngs whych are
our owne vnworthinesse If a man be desyrous to obteyne anye thing at his father or fre des hande of whome he hath receyued many things and not recompenced the least is not this a méete kynde of speache for him to vse there is something necessary for me to haue but I dare not aske it at your handes for my vnworthynesse who haue receyued so much already without any kynde of recompen e surelye this is both the next waye for hym to obteyne that which he desyreth and a good tóken not of seruile feare but of true humilitie and of that due reuerence that a good childe oweth to a moste naturall and louing father The Publicane durst not come nighe nor lifte vp his eyes so did he acknowledge his vnworthynesse such was his humilitie And yet you knowe what Christe did pronounce of hym and what generall rule he groundeth Luc. 18. vpon that example euen this Omnis qui se exaltat c. Euery one that exalteth hymselfe shall be brought lowe c. You knowe also what the prodigall sonne sayde to his owne father after his father hadde embraced hym and receyued hym into mercy Luc. 15. Neque posthac sum dignus qui vocer filius tuus And I am no more worthy to be called thy sonne God forbyd that we should so presume of our selues that we should shut humilitie and the acknowledging of our owne vnworthinesse from faythfull and heartye prayer In that therefore we saye for our owne vnworthynesse we dare not aske it we both aske it and yet with all humilitie acknowledge our owne vnworthinesse which if it be spoken vnfainedlye cannot be but greately accepted of God And surely this kinde of begging is moste effectuall and it is vsed towardes those to whom we thinke our selues most bounde and whome for their benefites bestowed vpon vs we loue most derely Neither doth this kynde of prayer sauoure of mistruste but rather of greate confidence in the mercy of God at whose handes we craue those things which we are of our selues vnworthy to aske or receiue Chap. 2. the. 11. Diuision Admonition They praye that they may be deliuered from thundring and tempest when no daunger is nigh that they syng Benedictus Nunc dimittis and Magnificat we knowe not to what purpose except some of them were ready to die or except they would celebrate the memorie of the Uirgin Iohn 〈◊〉 c. Thus they prophane the holy scripture Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 202. Sect. 4. You mislike also that we should praye to be deliuered from thundring and Prayer to be deliuered from thunder good tempest when there is no daunger nighe You broch many straunge opinions may not we praye to be deliuered from perilles and daungers except they be present and knowen to be at hande where finde you that Christ teacheth vs to saye in our daily prayer libera nos à malo deliuer vs from euil VVhat knovve vve vvhen there is any daunger of thundring and lightning haue vve not examples of diuers that haue sodainly perished vvith the same Is it not therefore necessary to praye for deliueraunce from thunder and lightning as wel as from other daungers though they be not present well men may see wherevnto this geare tendeth if Magnificar Nunc dimittis c. they be not blinde Benedictus also Nunc dimi tis and Magnificat be great motes in your eyes but you shewe no reason worthy to be answered only in derision you saye except some of them were ready to die or would celebrate the memorie of the Virgine or Iohn Baptiste As though these Hymnes or Psalmes were not profitable for all men as the reste of the holy scripture is but these especially bicause they conteine the misterie of our saluation and the praise of God for the same By this your reason we may not vse any of the Psalmes vntill we be in lyke case as Dauid was or other when they were first made But I thinke nowe the time is come when those shall correcte Magnificat Qui nesciunt quid significat Truly this your doing is a mere prophanation of holy scriptures T. C. Pag. 107. Sect. 2. And if all the prayers were gathered togither and referred to these twoo heades of Goddes glorie and of the thyngs which perteyne to this present lyfe I can make no Geometricall and exacte measure but verily I beleue there shal be founde more than a thyrd parte of the prayers which are not Psalmes and textes of scripture spent in raying for and praying against the incommodities of this life which is contrarie to all the argumentes or contentes of the prayers of the church which are et downe in the scripture and especially of our sauiour Christes prayers b the whiche ours ought to be directed which of seuen petitions bestoweth one onely that wayes And that these fo esayde prayers doe not onel in generall wordes but by de uctyng the commodities and incommodities of this lyfe i to theyr particular kyndes that we praye for the auoyding of those daungers which are noth g neare vs as from lightning and thundring in the myddest of wynter from stor e tempest when the weather is most faire and the seas most calme c. It is true that vpon some vrgent calamities prayer may and ought to be fra ed which may begge eyther the commoditie for want whereof the churche is in distresse or the turning away of that mischiefe whiche eyther approcheth or which is already vppon it but to make those prayers which are for the present tyme and daunger ordynary and daily prayers I cannot hitherto see any either scrupture or example of the primitiue churche And here for the symples sake I will set downe after what sort this abuse crept into the churche Io. Whitgifte I thinke you doe confesse and acknowledge that it is lawefull to praye for things whiche perteine to this present lyfe if you should denie it I coulde confute you by the prayer that Iacob made to be deliuered from the handes of his brother Esau Ge 32. and by sundrye of the Psalmes and diuers examples in the Gospell of such as craued the like thinges at Christes handes and obteined their desyre howe many such prayers be in the booke of common prayer it skilleth not so long as you cannot proue them to be other than godly and necessarie If in euery prayer we make some petition for temporall thinges we doe but imitate and followe that prayer which Christe hath prescribed vnto vs both as a moste necessarie prayer and as a rule also to frame and forme all our prayers by You might as well proue that we ought not so often to aske remission and forgiuenesse of our synnes bicause of seuen petitions there is but one onelye bestowed that waye Howe farre therefore this reason is from godlynesse and reason the godly and reasonable Reader may i dge All things to be prayed for tende to the glorie of God All
not somtime pray and sometimes reade the scriptures what do we else in the whole order of our seruice will you still more and more vtter your contempt agaynst God against his Church against a most pure and godly kynde of publike prayer and seruice and that with such vnreuerend speaches But I omit thē it is inough to haue noted thē in the margent for they are cōfutation to thēselues Chap. 2. the. 19. Diuision T. C. Pag. 108. Sect. vlt. If a man should come to a Prince and keepe such order in making his petitions vnto him that hauing very many things to demaunde after he had demaunded one thing he woulde stay a long tyme and then demaunde another and so the thirde the Prince might well thinke that eyther he came to aske before he knew what he had neede of or that he had forgotten some piece of his sute or that he were distracted in his vnderstanding or some other such like cause of the disorder of his supplication And therefore how much more conuenient were it that according to the maner of the reformed Churches first the minister with an humble and generall confession of faults should desire the assistance of the Lord for the fruteful handling and receyuing of the worde of God and then after that we haue heard the Lorde speake vnto vs in his worde by his minister the Church should likewise speake vnto the Lorde and present all those petitions and sutes at once both for the whole Church and for the Prince and all other estates which shall be thought needfull Io. Whitgifte As much differencs as there is betwixt man and God so farre is your similitude The dissimilitude of the replyers similitude from prouing your purpose except you will admit the like similitude vsed by the Papists to proue praying to Saints for the one hath as muche strength to proue ani thing as the other and yet neither of them both worth a rush And here you doe iniurie to God to compare him to an earthly Prince especially in this behalfe For what Prince would not thinke himselfe abused if a man shoulde dayly and hourely sue vnto him But it is not so with God for we haue a commaundement to pray continually Luke 18. 1. Thes. 5. and he doth not respect the forme of wordes but the affection of the heart And in verie déede it is most conuenient that reading of the scriptures and praying should be intermingled All the scripture that you haue to alledge is the reformed Churches let other men thinke what they will I verily beléeue that in our maner and kinde of worshipping God in our publike and common prayers there is no cause why we shoulde thinke our selues one whit inferiour vnto them they also or the must part of them haue allowed the same order of ours at what time the like contention was about the same booke amōg our English mē which were in Q. Maries time banished for the gospel Chap. 2. the. 20. Diuision T. C. Pag. 109. Sect. I. And if any will say that there are short prayers found in the Acts it may be answered that S. Luke doth not expresse the whole prayers at large but only set downe the summes of them their chiefe poyntes And further it may be answered that alwayes those prayers were continued togyther and not cut off and shred into diuerse small pieces Io. Whitgifte Howe knowe you that S. Luke doth not expresse the whole prafers at large but onely set down the sums of thē their chief points What scripture haue you that teacheth you so to think if this be a sufficient answere to say the scripture hath not expressed the whole c. Why is it not also a sufficient answere for me to that which foloweth that the scripture The scripture hath not prescribed any forme of publike prayer ▪ hath not expressed any certaine or determinate forme of publike prayer to be vsed in all Churches as in déede it hath not but onely in the Lordes prayer giuen certaine generall poynts according to the whiche all our prayers must be framed Surely your fansie is strong but your arguments be excéeding weake For tell mée I pray you where haue you in the whole newe testament the Lordes prayer onely excepted any forme of publike prayer vsed in the Church described If you cannot shewe this why do you so childishly dallie Chap. 2. the. 21. Diuision T. C. Pag. 109. Sect. 2. Another fault is that all the people are appoynted in diuerse places to say after the Minister whereby not onely the tyme is vnprofitably wasted and a confused voyce of the people one speaking after another caused but an opinion bred in their heades that those onely be theyr prayers which they say and pronounce with their owne mouthes Which causeth them to giue the lesse heede to the rest of the prayers which they rehearse not after the Minister which notwithstanding are as well their prayers as those which they pronounce after the Minister otherwise than the order which is left vnto the Church of God doth beare For God hath ordeyned the Minister to this ende that as in publike meetings he onely is the mouth of the Lorde from him to the people euen so he ought to be (*) Vntruth ▪ onely the mouth of the people from them vnto the Lorde and that all the people should attende to that which is sayde by the Minister and in the ende both declare their consent to that which is sayde and their hope that it shall so be and come to passe whiche is prayed by the worde Amen As S. Paule declareth in the Epistle to the Corinthians And Iustine Martyr 1. Cor. 14. 1. Apol. pro Christianis sheweth to haue bene the custome of the Churches in his time Io. Whitgifte God be thanked that the booke is so per te that you are constreyned for sauing your credite with your Disciples thus triflingly to deale with it you vnchristianly say that the time is vnprofitably wasted which is spent in prayer you imagine that of the people that neuer entered into their thoughts you call it a confused voyce that is a most acceptable sounde vnto the Lorde and if to surmise or to imagine be sufficient then may we imagine your doctrine to tende to the contempt of prayer and the ouerthwarting of all good and godly order But you must knowe that there is more speciall cause why the people should rather reherse after the Minister those things that the booke appoynteth them so to do than the other prayers bicause they conteyne a generall confession of sinnes which all Christians togither as well in voyce as in heart ought to confesse neyther doth the booke prescribe the people to say any thing after the Minister the Lordes prayer after the Communion onely excepted but these generall Muscul. in 〈◊〉 Math. and publike confessions and yet if it did I sée not howe you can iustly therefore reproue it Musculus
and that there will not be wanting some probable colours also whereby these things may be defended if men will set themselues to striue and to contende yet for the desyre that I haue that these things should be amended and for the instruction of the symple which are studious of the truth I haue beene bolde to vtter that whiche I thinke not doubting also but that the lyght of the truth shall be able to scatter all those mystes of reasons which shall go about to darken the clearnesse thereof Io. Whitgifte Surely if the blottes be so manifest as you woulde séeme to make them it is not wisely done of you so slenderly to passe them ouer You do well to thinke that this treatise of yours touching prayer will be subiect to The pith of the replie concerning prayer many reprehensions and why shoulde it not What is there in it worthie of commendation What learning what reason what truth what godlinesse except vaine wordes be learning fancies reason lyes truth contempt of good lawes and orders with vnséemely iestes bée godlynesse for what is there else in thys treatise Truely if you had not settled your selfe to striue and to contende and had not béene desyrous to peruert the simple rather than to instruct them you would neuer vpon so weake a ground with so féeble reasons or rather vaine fansyes haue gone about to depraue so worthie a Booke In the whiche as I haue sayde before you are not able to shewe any thing especially touching the order maner and matter of prayer that is not consonant to the worde of God Neyther haue you for all that is spoken against the forme of prayer alledged one text of Scripture or one sentence of any auncient or late wryter and doe you thinke that men will beléeue you vpon your bare wordes agaynst so many Martyrs and learned men as haue allowed and doe allowe that booke Your credite is not so greate as you thinke it is and that which you haue when you are accordingly detected will vtterly vanishe and fade away Of Baptisme by women wherewith the Communion booke is falsely charged Chap. 3. the. 1. Diuision Admonition In which a great number of things contrarie to Gods worde are conteyned as baptisme (i) Mat. 28. 19 1 Co. 14. 35 The fyrst appoynter hereof vvas Vietor 1. Anno. 198. by women Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 79. Sect. 2. 3. 4. 5. All prayers good in the Communion booke But you say a number of things contrarie vnto Gods worde are conteyned in this booke as baptisme by women c. Here is not one prayer in all the Communion booke founde fault with and yet your quarell is agaynst a prescript forme of prayers inuented by man You marueylously forget your selfe and confusedly go from matter to matter without any consideration Digressing therefore from prayers conteyned in the Communion booke you come to other matters in the same agaynst Gods worde as you say and first you alledge baptising by women I denie baptising by women to be expressed in that booke and when you haue proued it to be necessarily gathered out of the same then shall you heare my iudgement thereof T. C. Pag. 109. Sect. 4. Mayster Doctor requireth that it shoulde be proued vnto him that by pryuate Baptisme is ment Baptisme by women First it is ment that it shoulde be done by some other than the Minister for that the Minister is bidde to giue them warning that they shoulde not baptise the childe at home in their house without great cause and necessitie secondarily I woulde gladly aske him who they be that are present when the childe is so shortly after it is borne in great daunger of death and last of all Mayster Doctor doth not see howe he accuseth all the Magistrates of this Realme of the neglect of theyr duetie in that they allowe of the dayly practising by women in baptising children if so be that the booke did not so appoynt it or permit it If he nt plainly herein there needed not so much a doe Io. Whitgifte Here is nothing sayde whiche the Authours of the Admonition haue not alledged before eyther in theyr booke or in theyr Additions and therefore the same answere that was made vnto them will serue for you I tolde you there Why baptism is called priuate that the booke of Common prayer doth call it priuate Baptisme in respect of the place which is a priuate house and not in respect of the Minister whiche euidently appeareth in these wordes whiche you your selfe alledge in this place that is that the Minister is bidde to giue them warning that they shoulde not baptise the childe at home in their house c. but you cannot thereof conclude the meaning of the Booke to be that women shoulde baptise for euen in that necessitie the Curate may be sent for or some other minister that may sooner be come by Your question is soone answered for no man doubteth of the persons that bée present at suche a tyme but I haue tolde you that when suche necessitie requyreth the Curate or the next Minister is soone sent for as often tymes he is in as great extremities as that and what a reason call you thys women bée present when the chylde that is borne is in great daunger of death therefore the Minister cannot be sent for to baptise the childe To your obiection of the Magistrates allowing the practise of Baptising by women I answere first that your generall proposition is vntrue as I thinke for all the Magistrates of this Realme doe not so Secondly that if they did yet it followeth not that they doe it by the authoritie of the Booke for many things bée permitted as tollerable whiche are not established by any lawe and therefore if you had done well you shoulde rather haue reproued the custome that doth vse it than the booke that speaketh neuer a worde of it I deale as playnly as I can for I kéepe me to the Booke But your vayne coniectures and friuolous reasons against that booke may not be yelded vnto but opened that they may appeare in their colours Chap. 3. the. 2. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 79. Sect. vlt. Your places of Scripture alleadged against it are not of sufficient Feeble arguments force to proue your purpose Christ in the. 28. of Mathew sayde to his disciples Go and teache all nations baptisyng them in the name of the father c. ergo women may not baptise I saye this argumente followeth not no more than this doth Ergo pastors may not baptise for it is manyfest that an Apostle is dislincte from a Pastor T. C. Pag. 109. Sect. 5. The place of the. 28. of Sainct Mathew is as strong agaynst womens baptizing as it is agaynst theyr preaching For (a) Vntruth 〈◊〉 hath 〈◊〉 the ministerie of the worde and Sacramentes can not be pulled in sunder which y e Lord hath ioyned togither from time to time For
offered It stands you vpon for it is much to your dishonestie and a great discredite to your whole cause Touching this place of S. Paule 1. Cor. 11. I say as I said before and I adde that he only reproueth such abuses as were vsed among them in their publike assemblies he speaketh not of celebrating the communion in priuate places S. Paule maketh no such opposition in that place as you speake of neyther doth he speake any thing sounding that way only he reproueth the abuse which was thē crept into the supper of the Lord among the Corinthians Quòd sacro spirituali epulo profana symposia permiscerent idque cum pauperum contumelia In that they mingled prophane Cal. in 1. Co. 11 banquetts with that holy and spirituall feast and that with the contumely of the poore as M ▪ Caluine sayth Wherefore it appeareth that either you are disposed to make good whatsoeuer they haue written be it neuer so absure or else you wittingly dissemble the true sense and meaning of this place Chap. 3. the. 11. Diuision Ansvver to the Admonition Pag. 80. Sect. 4. You say in your margent that Uictor Anno. 198. did first appoynt that women might baptise By this you adde more credite to the cause than you are aware of for Uictor was a godly Byshop and a Uictor a good Byshop and martyr martyr and the Church at that time was in great puritie not being long after the Apostles time But truly I can find no such thing in all his decrees onely this he saythe that suche as be conuerted of the Gentiles to the faythe of Chryste in tyme of necessitie or at the poynte of deathe may be baptised at any tyme in any place whether it be in the sea or in a riuer or in a pond or in a well so that they make a confession of their fayth he maketh no mention at all of any baptizing by women and therfore you haue doone youre cause greate iuiurie Io. Whitgifte Nothing answered here vnto Of ministring the Sacramentes in priuate places Chap. 4. the first Diuision Admonition Then they were ministred in publike assemblies nowe in priuate houses Answere to the Admonition Pag. 92. Sect. 2. The places of Scripture whereby you proue that Sacraments Baptisme m nistred in priuate places were then ministred in publike assemblies be taken out of the firste of S Marke and. 1. Cor. II. which places of scripture proue that Iohn did baptize openly and that the Lordes Supper was ministred in the publike congregation but neyther of them bothe conclude that these Sacramentes may not also be ministred vpon any occasion in priuate houses for what sequele is there in this reason al the c untrey of Iudea and they of Ierusalem went out vnto him and wer Arg non sequitur baptized of him in the riuer of Iordan confessing their synnes Ergo baptisme may not be ministred vpon any occasion in priuate houses you may as well conclude that none ought to be baptized but in the riuer of Iordan and none but such as be able to confesse their sinnes and so you shoulde seclude children from Baptisme as the Anabaptists doe T. C. Page 111. Sect. vlt. To the admonition obiecting in the nintie and two page that Iohn baptized openly amongst the congregation he answereth and sayth that it may be as well concluded that we should baptize only in the riuer of Iordane and none but those that be of age by whiche saying he giueth to vnderstand (a) Nay I giue you to 〈◊〉 the fondnesse of the argument that to baptize in the Church hath no greater necessitie than y e baptizing in Iordan nor it skilleth no more whether baptisme be ministred in the publike assemblie than it is necessatie or skilleth whether we be baptized in the ryuer of Iordan and that the baptisme of yong infants hath no better groundes than priuate baptisme hath The latter wherof both beyng absurde is tootoo 〈◊〉 vnto the baptisme of yong infantes For as of our Sauiour Christes preaching in publike places and refusyng priuate places we doe gather that the preachyng of the woorde ought to be publike Euen so of S. Iohns preaching and baptizing in open meetings we conclude that both preaching and baptizing ought to be in publike assemblies Io. Whitgifte I referre it to the learned Reader to iudge whether this be a good argumente or no Iohn baptised openly in the Riuer Iordan Ergo baptism may at no time vpon any occasion be ministred in a priuate house And if any will iudge it to be good thē will I demaunde of them why this should not be as good Iohn did baptise in Iordane Ergo none ought to be baptized but in the riuer Iordane Or this Iohn baptized suche as confessed their synnes Ergo none muste be baptised but suche as are able to make a confession of their sinnes This is that vnskilful kinte of reasoning that Zuinglius so ofte reproueth the Anabaptistes for and he calleth it an argumente à facto ad ius I doe not in any respecte speake agaynste baptizing in the Churche but doe greately commende it as a thyng moste conueniente but I doe not so tie the Sacramente to the place or publike congregation that I make it of the necessitie of the Sacramente so that it maye not vppon any occasion be ministred in a priuate house I compare not baptizing in the Churche and in the riuer Iordane together neyther doe I saye that baptizing of yong infantes hath no better groundes than priuate baptisme hath but I disallowe this kinde of proofe which the A monition vseth and I sée not why it is not of lyke force in all other the circumstances of that place and those examples that I haue alleadged Christe preached both priuately and publikely in the temple and in priuate families in great assemblies and seuerally to his owne disciples and at all tymes as occasion serued and therefore you can not conclude by the example of Christe that the preachyng of the Gospel ought only to be publike in the open congregation and at no tyme priuate vpon any occasion Chap. 4. the. 2. Diuision T. C. Page 112. Sect. 1. And although to some one action there concurre diuers things which partly are not to be folowed at all partly are indifferent to be followed or not followed yet neyther the vnlawfulnesse of the one to be followed nor the indifferencie of the other can hinder but there are some other things in the same action necessarie to be followed whyche maye be consydered bothe of the place of the Actes touchyng the election where I haue (a) It is sayd but not proued proued some thyngs there mentioned to be necessarie to be doone in elections although other some be not conuenient nor fit for vs to followe And I haue shewed it also by M. Caluine whiche M. Doctor allcadgeth for himselfe and by Cyprian (b) A digression from the matter to the person whose
C. Page 115. Lin. 12. And in the fourth Councell of Carthage it is simply decreed that a woman oughte not to Tom. 1. cō ca. 100. baptise Io. Whitgifte This Canon in Gratian de conse Disti 4. is thus reported Mulier quamuis docta sancta viros in comuentu docere vel aliquos baptizare non praesumat nisi necessitate cogent Let not a woman although learned and godly presume to teache men in an assembly or to baptise any excepte necessitie constrayne So that the Canon inhibiteth women to preache or to baptise in the open Churche and publike assemblies And this is a sufficient answere to this place neyther dother it impugne any thing affirmed in the Answere Chap. 5. the. 12. Diuision T. C. Pag. 115. Lin. 13. The authors of the Admonition obiect that necessitie of saluation is tyed to the Sacraments by this meanes and that men are confirmed in that olde errour that no man can be saued without baptisme whiche in deede is true For muste it not be thought to be done of necessitie and vpon great extremitie for the doing whereof the orders that God hathe let that it shoulde be done in the congregation and by the Minister of the Gospell are broken Yes verily And I wyll further say that although that the Infants which dye without baptisme should be assuredly damned whiche is moste false yet oughte not the orders whiche God hathe set in hys Churche to be broken after this sorte For as the saluation of men oughte to be beare vnto vs so the glory of God whiche consisteth in that his orders be kepte ought to be muche more deare that if at any time the controuersie coulde be betweene his glory and our saluation our saluation ought to fall that his glory may stande Io. Whitgifte Yet the auoyding of that errour is no sufficient cause to debarre Infantes from There is necessitie of bap tisme though the necessitie of saluation be not tyed to the sacramentes baptisme excepte you will therein ioyne with the Anabaptistes The outwarde sacramentall signes are seales of Gods promises and whosoeuer refuseth the same shall neuer enioy the promises and althoughe the necessitie of saluation is not so tyed to the Sacraments that whosoeuer hathe the externall signes shall therefore be saued yet is it so tyed vnto them that none can be saued that willingly and wittingly is voyde of them not partakers of them Circumcistō which is a figure of baptisme Genes 17. had that necessitie ioyned vnto it that whosoeuer lacked it was not counted nor reckened Mark 16. amongst the people of God It is not nothing that Chryst sayth Qui crediderit baptizatus fuerit c. But your maner of doctrine is suche that it maketh men The doctrine tendeth to the de ogation of the sacramēts thinke that the externall signes of the sacraments are but bare ceremonies and in no sense necessarie to saluation whiche muste in time bring in a contempte of the sacraments and especially of baptisme for Infants M. Zuinglius Bucer and Caluine as you heard before although they doe not thinke children without baptisme to be damned yet doe they iudge the baptisme of children to be necessarie and that for iust causes as is before declared And what Christian would willingly suffer his childe to dye without the sacrament of regeneration the lacke whereof though it be not a necessarie yet may it séeme to be a probable token and signe of reprobation What eyther order of God or commaundement is broken in priuate baptisme or where hath God appoynted that baptisme muste be ministred in the open congregation onely and not vpon any cause in priuate families Will you yet deale on this sorte without ground or proofe In priuate baptisme vsed vpon necessitie there is neyther order nor commaundement of God broken If there be shewe it Chap. 5. the. 13. Diuision The Admonition And yet this is not to tye necessitie of saluation to the sacraments nor to nousell men vp in that opinion This is agreable with the scriptures and therefore when they bring the baptised chylde they are receyued with this speciall commendation I certifie you that you haue done well and according to due order c. But nowe we speake in good earnest when they answere this let them tell vs howe this geare agreeth wyth the scriptures and whether it be not repugnant or agaynst the worde of God Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 187. Sect. 1. And yet you say thys is not to tye necessitie of saluation to the sacramentes nor to nousell men vp in that opinion c. No surely no more than it is to teach that children ought to be baptized and not to tarry vntill suche time as they be able to answere for themselues T. C. Pag. 115. Sect. 1. Now in the. 187. page M. Doctor answereth heerevnto that this implyeth no more that the saluation is tyed to the sacraments than when it is taught that Infants must be baptised and not tarry vntyll they come to the age of discretion The which how truely it is spoken when as the one hath grounde of the scripture the other hath none the one approued by the continuall and almost the generall practise of the Church the other vsed onely in the corrupt and rotten estate thereof let all men iudge Io. Whitgifte This verifieth my saying for if baptisme of children be grounded vpon the scriptures as it is then is the necessitie of baptising them the more so that if not for feare of damnation yet bicause of Gods commaundement and institution children are of necessitie to be baptized and this is a receyued opinion in the Church euen from the beginning therfore lay men in the time of necessitie from the beginning haue béene permitted to baptise as may appeare by the authors before alleaged Chap. 5. the. 14. Diuision T. C. Pag. 115. Sect. 1. Therefore for so muche as the ministerie of the worde and Sacramentes goe togither and that the ministerie of the worde may not be committed vnto women and for that thys euill custome hathe risen first of a false vnderstanding of the Scripture and then of a false conclusion of that vntrue vnderstanding which is that they can not be saued whiche are not baptized and for that the authors them selues of that errour dyd neuer seeke no remedie of the mischiefe in womens or priuate baptisme And last of all for that if there were any remedie agaynst the mischiefe in suche kinde of baptisme yet it ought not to be vsed beeing agaynst the institution of God and his glory I conclude that the priuate baptisme and by women is vtterly vnlawfull Io. Whitgifte These be all petitions of principles or the moste of them for I haue shewed before that the administration of baptisme hath beene and may be committed to some euen in the publike congregation to whom the preaching of the word is not cōmitted and nowe in lyke maner I haue proued that laye
from God so to doe As when there is any generall plague or iudgement of God eyther vpon the Churche or comming towards it the Lorde commaundeth in suche a case that they shoulde sanctifie a generall faste and proclayme ghnatsarah whiche signifieth 2. Ioel. a prohibition or forbydding of ordinary works is the same Hebrue worde wherwith those feast days are noted in the law wherin they should rest the reason of which comaundement of the Lorde was that as they abstayned that day as much as myght be conueniently from meate so they myght abstayne from their dayly workes to the ende they might bestowe the whole day in hearing the worde of God and humbling them selues in the congregation confessyng their faultes and desiring the Lorde to turne away from his fearce wrath In this case the Churche hauing commaundement to make a holyday maye and oughte to doe it as the Churche whiche was in Babilon dyd during the time of their captiuitie But where it is destitute of a commaundemente it may not presume by any decree to restrayne that libertie which the Lorde hath giuen Io. Whitgifte When you are conuinced by manyfest Scripture as you are in this matter then you flye to your newly deuised distinctions as you do in this place saying The Lord whiche gaue this generall lawe might make as many exceptions as he thought good but to no purpose for you can not shewe in the whole Scripture where God hath made any lawe or ordinance agaynst his owne commaundement And surely in this poynte you haue greatly ouershotte your selfe béeing content rather to graunt contrarietie to be in the Scripture than to yéelde to a manyfest and knowne truthe The Church in appoynting holydayes dothe followe the example of God him selfe and therefore Tract 2. hath sufficient ground and warrant for hir doings and of the authoritie of the Church No mans libertie restreyned in such matters I haue spoken in an other place And I haue also a little before declared what kinde of libertie the Church may not restrayne and I adde that euery priuate mans consent is in the consent of y e Church as it is in the consent of the Parliament The Replyer bringeth authoritie against hym selfe therfore no mans libertie otherwise restrained than he hath cōsented vnto That in the seconde of the Prophet Ioell maketh agaynst you directly for it sheweth that vpon iuste occasion the Churche maye inhibite men from labour euen in the sire dayes notwithstanding it be sayde Sixe dayes thou shalte labour c. And to The Iewes aponynted to them selues holy dayes ▪ the intente no man shoulde doubte of the libertie of the Churche héerem or of the practise of this libertie let the nynthe chapter of Esther be perused and therein it will appeare that in remembrance of their great deliuerie from the treason of Haman the Iewes by the commaundement of Mordecai did solemnize and kéepe holydaye the fourtenth and fyftenth daye of the moneth Ader euery yeare But if neyther the ordinances of God himselfe nor the wordes of his Prophetes nor the examples of hys Apostles nor the practise of his Churche from the beginning wil take any place with you you are no man for me to deale with ¶ Of Sainctes dayes Chap. 2. the. 1. Diuision T. C. Page 120. Sect. vlt. Nowe that I haue spoken generally of holydays I come vnto the Apostles and other saincts dayes whiche are kepte wyth vs. And thoughe it were lawfull for the Churche to ordayne holydayes to our sauiour Christe or to the blessed Trinitie yet it is not therefore lawfull to institute holydayes to the Apostles and other Samctes or to their remembrance For althoughe I confesse as muche as you saye in the. 153. page that the Churche of Englande dothe not meane by this keeping of holydayes that the Saincts shoulde be honoured or as you alleage in 175. and 176. pages that with vs the Saincts are not prayed vnto or that it dothe propounde them as meritorious yet that is not inoughe For as we reason agaynst the Popishe purgatorie that it is therefore naught for as much as neyther in the olde Testament nor in the newe there is any mention of prayer at any tyme for the dead (a) Argum. ab auth ritate nogatiue so may it be reasoned agaynst these holydayes ordeyned for the remēbrance of the Saincts that for so much as the olde people dyd neuer keepe any feast or holyday for y e remēbrance eyther of Moses or Daniel or Iob or Abraham or Dauid or any other howe holy or excellent soeuer they were nor the Apostles nor the Churches in their time neuer ▪ instituted any eyther to keepe the remembrance of Stephen or of the Uirgin Mary or of Iohn Baptist or of any other notable and rare personage that the instituting and erecting of them now and this attempte by the Churches whiche followed whiche haue not suche certayne and vndoubted interpreters of the will of God as the Prophetes and Apostles were whiche liued in those Churches is not without some note of presumption for that it vndertaketh those things whiche the Primitiue Churche in the Apostles times hauing greater giftes of the spirite of God than they that followed them had durst not venter vpon Io. Whitgifte Purgatorie is made a matter of saluation or damnation as all other doctrines of the Popes be and therfore a negatiue reason suche as you vse is sufficient inoughe to improue it But holydayes in our Churche haue no suche necessitie ascribed vnto them onely they are thought very profitable to the edifying of Gods people and therefore suche negatiue reasons preuayle not agaynst them no more than they doe agaynst other constitutions of the Church perteyning to edifying order or comelynesse wherof there is no mention made in the worde of God And therefore nothing that is héere spoken by you can take any holde Chap. 2. the. 2. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 175. Sect. 1. Neyther are they called by the name of any Sainct in any other Why y e name of Sainctes are giuen to our holidays respecte than that the Scriptures whiche that daye are read in the Churche be concerning that Sainct and conteyne eyther hys calling preaching persecution martyrdome or suche like T. C. Pag. 121. Sect. 1. Moreouer I haue shewed before what force the name of euery thyng hathe to cause men to thinke so of euery thing as it is named and therefore althoughe you saye in the. 175. page that in calling these holydayes the dayes of suche or suche a Saincte there is nothyng else inent but that the Scriptures whiche are that daye read concerne that Saincte and conteyne eyther his calling preaching persecution Martyrdome c. yet euery one dothe not vnderstande so muche For besides that the corrupte custome of Popery hathe carryed their myndes to an other interpretation the very name and appellation of the daye teacheth otherwyse For seeing that by the dayes dedicated
to the Trinitie and those that are consecrate to our sauiour Christe are in that they be called Trinitie daye or the Natiuitie daye of our sauiour Christe by and by taken to be instituted to the honour of our sauiour Christe and of the Trinitie so likewyse the people when it is called sainct Paules daye or the blessed Uirgin Maries daye can vnderstande nothing thereby but that they are instituted to the honour of sainct Paule or of the Uyrgin Mary vnlesse they be otherwyse taughte And if you saye let them so be taught I haue answered that the teaching in this lande can not by any order whiche is yet taken come to the most parte of those whiche haue dronke this poyson and where it is taughte yet were it good that the names were abolished that they shoulde not helpe to vnteache that whiche the preaching teacheth in this behalfe Io. Whitgifte You haue so dismembred my booke in taking héere a péece and there a péece to answere as it pleaseth you and in leauing oute what you liste that you rather make a newe discourse of your owne than a Replie to anye thyng that I haue set downe Touching the names of the holydayes whiche you mislike I haue tolde the cause why they be so called whiche cause you can not improue and therefore you fall agayne to your accustomed coniectures and suppositions whiche are but very simple and slender argumentes What if euery one dothe not vnderstande so muche muste the Churche alter hir decrées and orders for euery particular mans abusing or not vnderstanding them He that is moste ignorant maye learne and knowe why they be so called if he be disposed if he be not the faulte is his owne the name of the day is not the worse to be lyked You might muche better reason agaynst the names of Sunday Monday and Saterday whiche be Heathenishe and prophane names yet I suppose that there is no man so madde as to thinke that those dayes be instituted and vsed of Christians to the honour of the Sunne of the Moone and of Saturne This is but to play the parte of a quareller as I haue sundry times tolde you to cauill at the name when you can not reproue the matter Those dayes be rather reteyned in the Churche to roote out suche superstitious opinions by the preaching of the worde and the reading of the Scriptures Neyther can any man that vnderstandeth Englishe and frequenteth the common and publike prayers in those holydayes except he be wilfull be so affected as you séeme to suspect Trinitie sunday the Natiuitie of our Sauiour Christe and suche lyke althoughe we honour the Trinitie and our Sauiour Christe in them as we doe in all other yet haue they their names especially bicause the Scriptures then read in the Churche concerne the Trinitie and the Natiuitie of our Sauiour Christe Augustine ad Ianuar. 119. sayth thus of the daye of the Natiuitie of Christe Heere first August it behoueth that thou knowe the daye of the Natiuitie of the Lorde not to be celebrated in a Sacrament or figure but onely that it is called backe into remembraunce that he is borne and for this there needeth nothing but that the day yerely be signified by solemne deuotion wherein the thing was done There is no place in this lande so destitute of instructions eyther by preaching or reading that any man can iustly pleade ignorance in suche matters and therefore séeing you haue no other arguments agaynst holydayes but coniectures and surmises and they false and vntrue or at the least not sufficient to alter a profitable order in the Churche holydayes maye still remayne and stande in their former force and strengthe Chap. 2. the. 3. Diuision T. C. Page 121. Sect. 2. Furthermore seeing the holydayes be ceremonies of the Churche I see not why we may not heere reuue Augustiues complaynte that the estate of the Iewes was more tollerable than ours is I speake in thys poynt of holydayes for if their holydayes and ours be accounted we shall be founde (*) It will be sound otherwyse to haue more than double as many holydayes as they had And as for all the commodities which we receyue by them whereby M. Doctor goeth about to proue the goodnesse and lawfulnesse of their institution as that the Scriptures are there read expounded the patience of those Sainctes in their persecution and martyrdome is to the edifying of the Churche remembred and yearely renued I saye that we mighte haue all those commodities without all those daungers whiche I haue spoken of and without any keeping of yerely memorie of those Saincts and as it falleth out in better and more profitable sorte For as I sayde before (*) Very absurdly of the keeping of Easter that it tyeth and as it were fettereth a meditation of the Easter to a sewe dayes whiche shoulde reache to all our age and tyme of our lyfe so those celebrations of the memories of Sainctes and Martyrs streyghten our consideration of them vnto those dayes whych should continually be thought of and dayly as long as we lyue And if that it be thoughte so good and profitable a thing that this remembraunce of them shoulde be vpon those dayes wherein they are supposed to haue dyed yet it followeth not therefore that after thys remembraunce is celebrated by hearing the Scriptures concernyng them and prayers made to followe their constancie that all the rest of the daye shoulde be kepte holy in suche sorte as men should be debarred of their bodily labours and of exercising their dayly vocations Io. Whitgifte Augustine speaketh not of holydayes in that place but of other vnprofitable ceremonies Epist. ad la. 119. vsed in particular Churches neyther grounded of the Scriptures determined by Councels nor confirmed by the custome of the whole Churche But the holydayes that we reteyne béeing not onely confirmed by the custome of the whole Churche but also profitable for the instruction of the people and vsed for publike prayer administration of the Sacramentes and preaching the worde can not be called burdens except it be a burden to serue God in praying in celebrating his sacraments and in hearing his worde And whereas you say that if theyr holydays ours be accounted we shal be found to haue The Iewes had me holydayes than we more thā double as many holydays as they had you speake that whiche you are not able to iustifie In the. 23 of Leuiticus there is appoynted vnto the Iewes the feast of Easter the feast of vnleuened bread the feast of first fruites Whitsontide the feast of trumpets the feast of reconciliation and the feast of Tabernacles whereof the feast of vnleuened bread and the feast of Tabernacles had eche of them seuen dayes annexed vnto them And if you wyll adde to these Iudiths feast chap. 16. the Machabies feast 1. Macha chap. 4. whiche continued eyght dayes togither and Hesters feast chap. 9. whiche continued two dayes you shall finde that
Sunday whiche you haue denied to be his opinion in the former two places I haue tolde you what he meaneth by discipline and order or pollicie whereby he giueth to vnderstande nothing lesse than that whiche you woulde conclude beyng but your owne deuise to serue for a poore shifte at a néede And although the matter is not greate whether they labour or no yet the lawe of the Prince and the order of the Churche is to be obserued And so it appeareth that there is no reasonable cause as yet proued why you ought not to subscribe to the seruice Booke Chap. 2. the. 8. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 82. Sect. 1. 2. In the ende you adde patched if not altogither yet the greatest peece out of the Popes Portuis To this I answere briefely it maketh no matter of whome it was inuented in what Booke it is conteyned so that it be good and profitable and consonant to Gods worde Well sayeth Ambrose Omne verum à quocunque dicitur à spiritu Sancto est All truth of vvhome soeuer it is spoken is of the holy ghost T. C. Pag. 123. Lin. 6. Nowe whereas M. Doctor sayeth it maketh no matter wither these thinges be taken out of the Portuis so they be good c. I haue proued first they are not good then if they were yet beyng not necessarie and abused horribly by the Papists other beyng as good and better than they ought not to remayne in the churche Io. Whitgifte Your reasons be not sufficient to proue them not to be good the abuse hath not bene suche but that it beyng remoued the thing may still remayne as profitable and The 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 be 〈◊〉 to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 iudgement conuenient the iudgement of the Churche in determining what is best and moste fittest in matters of order pollicie and gouernment not beyng agaynst the worde of God is to be preferred before any priuate mans opinion and imagination Chap. 2. the. 9. Diuision T. C. Pag. 123. Lin. 10. And as for Ambrose saying all truth of whome soeuer it be sayde is of the holy ghoste if I were disposed to moue questions I coulde demaunde of him which careth not of whome he haue Mark 1. the truth so he haue it what our Sauiour Christe ment to refuse the testimonie of Deuils when they gaue a cleare testimonie ▪ that he was the Sonne of God and the holy one And what S. Paule ment to be angrie and to take it so grieuously that the Pithonisse sayde he and his companion Act. 16. were the seruantes of the highe God which preached vnto them the way of saluation Here ▪ was truth and yet reiected and I would knowe whether M. Doctor would saye that these spake by the spirite of God Thus whilest without all iudgement he snatcheth here a sentence and there another out of the Doctoures and that of the worste as if a man should of purpose choose out the brosse and leaue the siluer within a while he will make no great difference not onely betwene the Prophetes and Apostles and prophane wryters as Aristotle and Plato but not betwene them and those which speake not by the conduyte and leading of the holy ghoste but by the violent thrusting of the wicked spirite Io. Whitgifte Christe liked not the truth beyng vttered of the Diuell bycause he spake it of an euill meaning but he liked very well the same testimonie of truth afterwardes vttered by Peter sincerely Math. 16. Mar. 8. Neyther did he mislike the woordes bycause they were abused by the Diuell before But I will leaue Diuels and speake of men of whome I thinke Ambrose mente although the truth is truthe of whome soeuer it is vttered but to Answere for Ambrose he hath sayde nothing in that sentence which may not be iustified M. Caluine vpon these woordes 1. Corinth 12. And no man can saye that Iesus is the Caluine Lorde but by the holy Ghost sayeth thus It may be demaunded whether the wicked haue the Spirite of God seyng they sometime testifie playnely and well of Christe I answere that there is no doubte but that they haue so much as concerneth that effect but it is an other thing to haue the gifte of regeneration than to haue the gifte of bare vnderstanding wherewith Iudas was indued when he preached the Gospell M. Martyr also vpon the same woordes after he hath recited the opinions of other P. Martyr maketh this resolution But when I weygh this matter with my selfe I perceyue that the Apostle here dothe speake not of the Spirite whiche doth regenerate or of that grace which iustifieth but of the giftes which are freely giuen whiche may happen as well to the good as to the euill Therefore I thinke that Paule spake simply that he might declare that by what meanes soeuer we speake well of Christe it is of the holy Ghost of whome Omne verum à spiritu sancto est commeth all truthe as all vntruth proceedeth of the Deuill who is the father of lyes You sée therefore that Ambrose is not of this iudgement alone and that his saying is verie true The Doctoures that I haue vsed in this cause be Ierome and Augustine whiche be not the worst but comparable with the best I haue rehearsed out of them whole sentences and perfite the which you are not able to answere the rest of your opprobrious woordes wherewith you conclude this question of holy dayes I leaue for other to consider of as notes of your spirite And to the intent that the Reader may vnderstande that it was not for naught that you set not downe my Booke togither with your Replie I will here set downe such portions of my booke touching this matter as you haue not answered vnto but closely passed ouer not thinking that any man should haue espied your lacke of abilitie to answere them Chap. 2. the. 10. Diuision Admonition They should first proue that holy dayes ascribed to Sayncts prescript seruices for them c. are agreeable to the written worde of the Almightie Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 153. Sect. 4. Pag. 154. Sect. 1. Holy dayes ascribed to Sainctes wherein not the Sainctes but God is honoured and the people edified by reading and hearing suche stories and places of Scripture as perteyne to the martyrdome calling ▪ and function of such Sainctes or any other thing mentioned of them in Scripture must needes be according to Gods worde For to honor God to worship him to be edified by the stories and examples of Sainctes out of the Scripture cannot be but consonant to the Scripture The prescript secuice for them is all taken out of Gods worde and not one peece thereof but it is moste consonant vnto the same If ther be any that is repugnant set it down that we may vnderstande it I tolde you before that touching the dayes and times and other Ceremonies the churche hath authoritie to determine what is most cōuenient
lawfull to reiterate baptisme and furious men of our time vsing thys testimonie haue gone about to bring in Anabaptisme Some men by the name of baptisme vnderstand a new institution vnto whome I do not assent bycause their exposition as it is enforced sauoureth of a shift Others denie that Baptisme was reiterated bycause they had Caluin in 19. Acto bin baptised of some folish imitator of Iohn But bycause their gheasse hath no coloure of truth nay rather the words of Paule do testify that they wer the very true disciples of Iohn and Luke very honorably calleth them the disciples of Christ I do not subscribe vnto thys sentence and yet I denie the baptisme of water to haue bin reiterated bycause the wordes of Luke do sound nothing else but that they were baptised with the spirit First it is no new The name of baptisme transferred to the gifts of the spirit thing to transferre the name of baptisme to the gifts of the spirite as we haue seene in the first and. 11. Chap. where Luke sayd that Christ when he promised to the Apostles the visible sending of the holy Ghost called it baptisme and agayne when the holy Ghost descended vpon Cornelius that Peter remembred the wordes of the Lord you shall be baptised with the holy Ghost Then we see that it is here namely intreated of the visible gifts and that they are conferred and giuen with baptisme But wheras it followeth immediatly that when he had layd his hands vpon them the holy Ghost came I interprete that to be put in the way of exposition for it is the vsuall and familiar manner of speaking in the scripture to propound a matter briefly and after to explicate it more plainly That therfore which for breuitie was somewhat obscure Luke doth better expresse and more largely expound saying that the holy Ghost was giuen them by the imposition of hands If any man obiecte that the name of baptisme when it is vsed for the gifts of the holy Ghost is not put simply but with addition I answer that the meaning of Luke is euidēt enough by the text And further that Luke alludeth to baptisme wherof he had before made mentiō And surely if you should take it for the externall signe it will be absurd that it was giuen vnto them without any better instruction But if metaphorically of the institution the phrase would yet be more hard and the story would not agree that after they were taught the holy Ghost descended vpon them But be it as other some learned men also interprete thys place that in the former parte of the Chapter the baptisme of Iohn is taken for the doctrine of Iohn and in this place for the sacrament of baptisme and that Paule preached before he did administer the same yet doth it not follow that of necessitie there must be preaching before the administration of baptisme The Anabaptists abused this place to the same effect but M. Bullinger doth answer them in this manner VVhereas the Catabaptists ullin in 19. Acto obiect here Therefore doctrine goeth before baptisme no man denyeth it but yet in those that be of yeares of discretion and with whome the name of Christ hath not bin published But agayn whereas the name of Christ hath bin heard of no man can denie but that there the parents being carefull for the saluation of their children do offer them vnto holy baptisme bycause they heare that God is also the God of infants but baptisme 〈◊〉 selfe to be nothing else but the signe of the people of God The third Diuision Ansvver to the Admonition Pag. 90. Sect ▪ And verses 13. 14. 15. it is manifest that he did baptise Christ without preaching This is buta slender proofe you vse thereby to condemne the sinceritie of our sarramentes and administring of them in this Church T. C. Pag. 125. Lin. 13. And whereas you say that it is manifest that our sauiour Christ was baptised without preaching I would know of you what one worde doth declare that when as the contrary rather doth appeare in S. Luke which seemeth to note playnely that our Sauiour Christe was baptised when Luke 3. the people were baptised But the people as I haue shewed were baptised immediatlye after they heard Iohn preache therefore it is lyke that our sauiour Christ was baptised after y t he had heard Iohn preach And it is very probable that our sauiour Christ which did honor the ministery of God by the hand of men so far as he would vouchsafe to be baptised of Iohn would not neglect or passe by his ministery of the word being more precious than that of the Sacramente as it appeareth by Iohn that our Sauiour Christe was present at his sermons for so much as S. Iohn doth as hee was preaching to the people point hym out with the fynger tolde them that he was in the middest Iohn 1. of them which was greater than he Io. Whitgifte First S. Mathewe maketh no mention of it neither can it be gathered by any circūstance of the place Secondly Luke doth not say that Iohn preached immediatly before he baptised But the contrary rather appeareth if S. Luke wryte the story orderly Thirdly to what purpose should he preache to Christe before he baptised him Lastly in the first of Iohn there is not one sentence to proue that Christe was present at any of Iohns sermones for those wordes But there standeth one among you Iohn 1. whome you know not c. do not signifie that he was in that company at that present Sed quod inter eos versabatur that he was conuersant amongst them But if he had bin present doth it therefore followe that the sacramentes may not be ministred without preaching do you make preaching immediatly before the administration of the sacramentes De substantia Sacramentorum of the substance of the Sacramentes The. 4. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 90. Sect. 2. 3. There is no man I thinke which doth not allowe of preaching before Preaching be fore the sacramentes not disalowed the administration of the Sacraments but it is not therewith ioyned tanquam de necessitate sacramenti as of the necessitie of the Sacramente neither is there any thing here alledged for preaching before the administration of the lords supper Indeede we reade not that Christ did preach immediatly before the distribution of the Sacrament of his body bloud to his disciples only he told them that some of them should betraye him that he had greatly desired to eate y e passeouer with thē This I write to shewe your blynde and vnlearned collections not to disalowe preaching in the administration of the Sacramentes T. C. Pag. 125. Lin. 25. And there is no doubt but those wordes which our Sauiour Christe sayd before his supper although they are gathered by the Euangelistes into short sentences were notwithstanding long sermons touching the fruite of his death and vse and ende
therefore I am bolde to speake as I haue learned out of the holy Scriptures and other godly wryters neyther is this to rende in sunder eyther the Sacraments from the worde or the Sacraments from them selues but to keepe the order vsed in the Churche in the Apostles time and since their time No man that is able to preache béeing for his other qualities also méete is debarred from ministring the Sacraments if he be in the ministerie but no man be he neuer so able in all respectes may presume to take an office vpon him wherevnto he is not called Therefore he that can not preache and yet by the order of the Tract 6. cap. 1. Tract 9. cap. 1 diuis 15. Churche is admitted to minister the Sacraments is a lawfull minister of the same and he that can preache excepte by order he be therevnto called maye not intrude him selfe into any function of the ministerie I haue also declared before that euen from the beginning the administration of the Sacramentes haue béene committed to some to whome the preaching of the worde hathe not béene committed The. 3. diuision Admonition Touching Deacons though their names be remayning yet is the office foully peruerted and turned vpside downe for their duetie in the Primitiue Churche was to (s) Rom. 12. 8. gather the a mes diligently and to distribute it faythfully also for the sicke and impotent persons to prouide paynefully hauing euer a diligent care that the charitie of godly men were not wasted vpon loyterers (t) 2. Th. 3. 10 and idle vagabounds Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 118. Sect. 2. It is true that in the primitiue Churche the office of a Deacon was to collect and prouide for the poore but not only for it was also their office to preache and to baptise For Stephen and Philip beeing Deacons dyd preache the Gospell Acts. 6. 7. 8. And Philip dyd baptise the Eunuche Act. 8. T. C. Pag. 128. Sect. 1. In the. 118. page vnto the example of Philip he addeth S. Stephen whyche was one of the Deacons which he affirmeth to haue preached But I denie it for all that long oration which he hath in the seuenth of the Actes is no sermon but a de ense of him selfe agaynst those accusations whych were layde agaynst hym as (*) No suche thing to be foūd in Beza his annotations M. Beza dothe very learnedly and substantially proue in his annotations vpon those places of S. Stephens disputations and defense Nowe to defende himselfe beeing accused is lawfull not for the Deacons onely but for any other Christian and we reade nothing that Stephen did there eyther touching the defense of his cause or the sharpe rebuking of the obstinate Pharisies and Priestes but that the holy Martyrs of God which were no deacons nor ministers haue done with vs when they haue bene conuented before their persecutors and whereas he ayth that Philip baptised I haue shewed before by what authoritie he dyd it that is not in that he was a Deacon but for 〈◊〉 he was an Euangelist Io. Whitgifte This is a harde and new deuised shifte You imagine as I thinke that you are in Stephen hys oration a serm n. the Logike or Philosophy scholes where you may feyne what distinctions you liste but al wil not serue The accusations are conteyned in the. 13. 14. verse of the. 6. chap. let the Reader compare his sermon with them iudge whether he spake in the way of preaching or of defending himselfe Although a man may make his Apologie in preaching answere accusations in a sermon and surely that sharpe seuere repr hension that he concludeth with beginning at the. 51. verse doth euidently declare that it was a sermon Moreouer it was in the Synagogue which was called the Synagogue of the Libertines c. The ende of it was to proue true religion and the true worshipping of God to be affixed neither to the Temple nor to external ceremonies but to consist of fayth in God And yet I do not deny but that Stephē also did vse this sermon as an answere to those matters wherof he was accused but he answered in the way of preaching not of pleading And that doth M. Gualter directly affirme for Gualter although he cal this an oration a defense yet in the. 8. chap. he proueth by this example of Stephen that Deacōs were permitted togither with the charge of the goods of the Churche and of the poore to preache as I haue shewed before And the Authors of the Centuries speaking of that time say thus It appeareth also out of the. 6. 8. of the Acts Cent. 1. lib. 2. cap. 7. that Deacons did teach And in the same booke chap. Others were Deacons whose office was to serue the tables at Ierusalem so long as there was there a cōmunitie of goods Act. 6. notwithstāding it appeareth by Steuen Act. 6. by Philip Act. 8. that they did teach work myracles euery where in other Churches the office of Deacons was to teach minister I can not finde in M. Beza his Annotatiōs any such thing as you héere affirme Although if it were so yet doth it not improue this to be a sermon for then was the oration of Peters no sermō Act. 2. wherin he answered to those that accused the Apostles of drunkennesse neyther can Paule be sayde to haue preached Act. 24. If this be true that an Apologie may not be made by the way of preaching If it be lawfull thus to inuent distinctions to shift off so manyfest examples of Scriptures then it is an easy matter to shift off any thing that shall be propounded I haue proued by the Scripture it selfe by Epiphanius and by M. Gualter and by the authors of the Centuries that Philip béeing a Deacon dyd bothe baptise and preache and you onely deny it without eyther author or reason The. 4. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 118. Sect. 2. Iustinus Martyr one of the moste auncient wryters in his seconde Deacons helped in the ministration of the supper Apologie sayth that in the administration of the Supper Deacons did distribute the bread and the wine to the people The same dothe M. Caluine affirme of Deacons in his Institutions chap. 19. T. C. Page 128. Sect. 1. 2. 3. He addeth further out of Iustine Martyr that the Deacons dyd distribute the bread and the wyne in the administration of the Supper Tully sayth in a certayne place that it is as greate a poynt of wisedome in an aduocate or pleader of causes to holde back and to keepe close that which is hurtfull to hys cause as it is to speake that which is profitable M. Doctor obserueth none of these poynts for besydes that the things whych he brought for the defense of the seruice booke are suche as they haue before appeared in seeking to defende it he manifestly oppugneth it For before h sayde that the booke of seruice
Anabaptists Catabaptistes and Papistes Io. Whitgifte Yet you should here haue excused their ignorance in certaine poynts and theyr absurd reasoning but seeing you are content so lightly to passe all this ouer and leauing the defense of the Admonition séeke to confute my collections I am contente also that it stande vntouched and will answere that whyche you onely séeme to misselyke I doe not otherwyse suspect them of Arrianisme than they haue giuen iust occasion by dislyking the publike reading of that Creede whiche was purposely made to ouerthrow Arrianisme I trust there is a great number of suche as feare God in the Churche of Englande that knowe not them but yet for their rashnesse in this point haue them in some suspiition By these examples of negatiue argumentes from the Scriptures I ouerthrow all the Anabaptistes reasons that they do or can vse in the defense of their errours so do I lykewyse yours vsed against this Church of England neyther speake I any otherwyse of the baptisme of infantes or of womens receyuing the Communion than M Zuinglius doth in his Elench against the Anabaptistes and M. Caluine also in his booke written against them But this answere sore troubleth you and therefore you onely replie against it with slaunderous wordes but least you should by such meanes abuse the Reader I will set e downe bothe Zuinglius and Caluines wordes M. Zuinglius in his Elench contra Zuinglius Anabap. sayth thus You can fynde no hole to escape at For you foolyshly reason negatiuely from deedes and examples naye from no deedes and no examples For what doe you else when you saye wee reade not that the Apostles didde baptize infantes Ergo infantes oughte not to be baptized Dothe not all the force of youre reasons consyste herein And again VVherfore it is to be maruelled at with what face they dare measure the Baptisme of Infantes by the Scripture or rather by not scripture for they haue nothing in the Scripture whervnto they may truste but they make onely the negatiue their foundation when they saye we reade not that the Apostles baptized infantes therefore they ought not to bee baptized c. And in his booke de Baptismo of the baptisme of infantes and the first originall thereof neyther I nor any other man can otherwise affirme if we respect the expresse and euident worde of God than that it is that true and onely baptisme of Christe For we may fynde many things of this sorte whereof although there be no expresse and playne testimonie of God yet they are not repugnant to his will but rather agreeth with the same of this sort is that that we make women partakers of the Lords supper when as notwithstandyng wee reade of none that sat downe in that Supper which Christe dyd institute And M. Caluine in his booke aduersus Anabaptist sayeth in lyke Caluine maner They haue nothyng to saye agaynste the Baptisme of infantes but that there is no where any mention made that the Apostles did vse it to this I answere that no more doe wee reade in any place that they did at any tyme minister the Supper of our Lorde to any woman And yet these two be neyther Anabaptistes ▪ Catabaptistes nor Papists but valiant captaines against them all Chap. 1. the seconde Diuision Admonition The fourthe There was then accustomed to bee an examination of the communicantes whiche nowe is neglected Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 96. Sect. 2. 3. Howe proue you that there was then any examination of communicantes Examination of communicantes If there hadde bene eyther commaundemente or example for it in Scriptures I am sure you woulde not haue lefte it vnquoted in the margent Saincte Paule sayeth 1. Cor. 11. Probet 1. Cor. 11. bomo seipsum Lette a man examine hym selfe c. But he speaketh of no other examination wherefore this reason of youres is altogether friuolous and without reason And yet I doe not disallowe the examination of communicants so there be a discreete respecte had of the persons places and other circumstances neyther is it neglected in this Churche of Englande but by learned and discrete ministers wyth learnyng aud discretion vsed But note I praye you the force of this argumente some ministers neglecte to examine the communicantes Ergo the Communion is not rightly and syncerely ministred as thoughe the examination of the communicantes were of the substance of the sacrament If you woulde reason after your accustomed manner you should rather conclude thus the Apostles were not examined when they receyued the communion neyther is it expressed in Scriptures that they examined others therefore there ought to be no suche examination this is your vsual maner of reasonyng but it is chyldish vnlesse it were to conclude damnation or saluation T. C. Pag. 130. Sect. 2. M. Doctor asketh howe it is proued that there was any examination of the communicantes After this sorte all things necessarie were vsee in the churches of God in the Apostles tymes but examination of those whose knowledge of the mysterie of the Gospel was not knowne or doubted of was a necessary thing therefore it was vsed in the churches of God whiche were in the Apostles time Io. Whitgifte I denie your minor fyrst bycause no suche at that tyme woulde offer themselues to receyue the communion Secondly bicause if any such did offer themselues not béeing knowne the fault is particular to themselues and toucheth them onely not the whole Churche Thirdly bycause if it had bene so necessarie a thing Saincte Paule woulde not haue omitted it especially when he hadde an especiall cause to speake of it as he had when he spake of priuate examination of a mannes selfe 1. Cor. 11. Probet autem seipsum home c. Of the whiche wordes M. Caluin speaking in Cor. 11. Caluin his booke agaynst the Anabaptists sayth thus But what neede we so to dispute seing the Apostle himselfe in an other place treating of the manner howe euery man shoulde be prepared to the receyning of the Supper of the Lorde as it behoueth him doth not bidde euery one too examine the faultes of hys neighboure but speaketh after thys manner Probet seipsum bomo c. Lette a man examine himselfe and so let him eate of this breade and drynke of this cuppe for hee that cateth and drinketh vnworthily eateth and drinketh his owne damnation In whiche woordes there are two things to be obserued Firste that to communicat with those that are vnworthy is not to eate the bread of the Lorde vnworthyly Two things worthy the noting for those which shall communicate but not to prepare himselfe as he ought to do and not to expend and consider his owne faith and repentaunce The second that when the supper is to be receiued we begin not with other men to examine them but that we trie ourselues and surely if all things were exactly considered euen they which haue so much leysure to enquire
the substance should be wanting But of this distinction I haue spoken in another place whereinto although M. Doctor falleth in the next section and in other places yet this shall be an answer for all Io. Whitgifte It is as grossely replyed vnto but my beléefe is that the sacrament is as purely and sincerely ministred with the one as it is with the other For not euery fond superstitious or vayne opinion of euery priuate person in this or that ceremonie â—erogateth any thing from the pure and sincere administration of the sacraments except it can be shewed that the things vsed be wicked vnlawfull or superstitious of themselues Wherefore this is a grosse quarell of yours it is no ouersighte of mine for I am well assured of the right and sincere administration of the sacraments in this Church both touching substance ceremonies and other circumstances And it is too much iniurie that you do to this Church of England in comparing the ceremenies thereof which he pure to the corrupt and superstitious ceremonies of the Papists vsed in baptisme But how should you otherwise vtter your coÌ„tempt or great spite against it Chap. 1. the. 9. Diuision Ansvver to the Admonition Pag. 99. Sect. 1. These words that you vse like their God of the altar be slanderous and false we are as farre from thinking the bread to be our God as you and teach as sound doctrine touching this sacrament And therefore you shew of what spirit you be T. C. Pag. 131. Sect. 2. The meaning of the Admonition in saying their God of the Altar is playne enough that it is vnderstanded of the Papists but that M. Doctor doth set himselfe to draw the authors of it into hatred and he cannot be ignorant that when a man speaketh of thinges whiche are 〈◊〉 knowen he often vseth the or that or their without naming the things which he speaketh of Io. Whitgifte The words of the Admonition be these Then they ministred with common and vsual bread now with wafer cakes brought in by Pope Alexander being in forme fashion and substance like their God of the Altar Now let the Reader iudge whether I charge them 〈◊〉 or no. Your excuse is but for a fashion their opinion of this whole Churche is as peeuishly and opprobriously vttered in sundry other places of their booke as it is in this And therefore there is no great doubt of their meaning or if their meaning be not so yet was it vnaduisedly set downe in that order that me may iustly suspect their meaning to be so Chp. 1. the. 10. Diuision Admonition The sixth They receiued it (c) Mat. 26. 20 Mar. 14. 18 Luk. 22. 14 Iohn 13. 28 sitting we kneeling according to Honorius decree Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 99. Sect. 1. 2. 3. The places of scripture that you quote in the margente to proue sitting at the communion declare that Christe and his disciples sate Kneeling and sitting at the Communion at the table but that proueth nothing For you mighte as well haue sayde they receiued after supper we before dinner they at nighte we in the morning they after meate we before meate they in a priuate house we in the open Churche they being all men and in number twelue we togyther with women not strictly obseruing the nuÌ„ber of twelue or any other nuÌ„ber aboue three or foure This your argument toucheth them as well as it doth vs whiche receiue it standing or walking But to sit stande kneele or walke be not of the substance of the Sacrament and therfore no impediments why it may not be sincerely ministred It be houeth humble and meeke spirites in such indifferent matters to submit themselues to the order of the Churche appoynted by lawfull authoritie and not to make schismes and contentions in the Church for the satisfying of their owne fantasies Io. Whitgifte Nothing answered Chap. 1. the. II. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 99. Sect. vlt. Pag. 100. Sect. 1. Kneeling the meetest gesture Touching kneeling at the communion it forceth not who did first appoint it although I can finde no such decree made by Honorius it is the meetest manner of receiuing this sacrament in mine opinion being commonly vsed in praying and giuing of thanks both whiche are annexed to this sacrament and are to be required in the coÌ„municants and therfore I thinke this to be a good reason the meet est gesture for praying and thaÌ„ksgiuing is kneeling but those that receiue the Eucharist pray and giue thaÌ„ks Ergo the meetest gesture for them is kneeling The onely perill is adoration whiche may as well be committed sitting or standing But wherefore then serueth preaching there is as much daunger of contempt the one way as there is of adoration the other way In such matters Christian magistrates haue authoritie to appointe what they thinke most conuenient and the same must be obserued of those that be pacifici and not contentiosi But of sitting and kneeling at the communion more is to be spoken hereafter in the second part T. C. Pag. 131. Sect. 3. Although it be not of necessitie that we should receiue the communion sitting yet there is the same cause of abolishing kneeling that ther is of remouing the wafer cake and if there be daunger of superstition in one as M. Doctor confesseth why is ther not daunger in the other and if ther be men that take occasion to fall at the one that by superstition how commeth it to passe that M. Doctor in the. 180. pag. saith y e neither gospeller nor Papists obstinate nor simple can superstitiosly offend in this kneeling when as the kneeling carrieth a greater shew of worship imprinteth in the mindes of the ignoraÌ„t a stronger opinion and a deeper print of adoration than the sighte of a round cake And if kneeling be so voyd of all fault as M. Doctor would make vs beleeue howe came it to passe that in King Edwards days there was a protestation added in the booke of prayer to cleare that gesture from adoration Io. Whitgifte If this be a sufficieÌ„t argument to alter chaunge so decent comely an order and gesture in praysing God then what order can stand in the church seing there is nothing that may not be abused My words in the. 180. pag. be true and as yet vnanswered I will set them downe in their place that the Reader may perceyue howe little you are able to saye against them The protestation made in king Edwards dayes touching this gesture was to satissye if it might be such quarellers as you are and to take away all occasion of cauilling not for any great seare of adoration Chap. 1. the. 12. Diuision T. C. Pag. 131. Sect. vlt. Another reason why kneeling should be taken away is for that sitting agreeth better with the action of the supper wherevnto M. Doctor taketh exception both in this place and where he speaketh againe of it that forsomuch as this sacrameÌ„t is a sacrament of
his commentarie vpon the Prophet Ionas Io. Whitgifte I call it Papisticall bycause the Papists ground the most points of their doctrine vpon allegories as the authors of the Admonition do their sitting I neyther defend surplis nor any thing else by allegories but I shew that I might do it muche better than they do sitting at the Communion Chap. 1. the. 16. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 180 Sect. 3. You say kneeling is a shew of euill and for proofe thereof you alledge 1. Thessa. 5. Absteyne from all apparance of euill How followeth this The Apostle willeth vs to absteyne from all apparance of euill therefore kneeling at the communion is a shewe of euill But your meaning is that bycause the Papists kneeled at the sacring of the Masse as they called it therefore we may not kneele at the receiuing of the communion you may as well say they prayed to images and saincts kneeling therefore we may not pray kneeling The places written in your margent to proue that Christ did sit at Pag. 181. sect 1. 2. supper be needelesse were vsed for the same purpose before where I haue also spoken my opinion of kneeling If you cite the Galat. 4. and. 5. and the Epistle to the Hebrues in many places to proue that sitting signifyeth rest that is a full finishing of the ceremoniall law you do but delude the Readers and abuse the Scriptures for there is no such matter to be found in them If you alleage them to proue that Christ is the full finishing of the the Ceremoniall lawe you take vpon you to proue that whiche no man doubteth of and is verie farre from your purpose You note also the. 20. of Exodus Thou shalte not bovve dovvne to Pag. 182. sect 1 them nor vvorship them to proue that we may not kneele at the communion but how fitly euery childe may iudge For what sequele is there in this argumente God in the seconde commaundement forbiddeth worshipping of images therefore we may not receyue the communion kneelyng T. C. Pag. 132. Sect. 1. For the rest which he hath here or in the. 180. and. 181. page it is eyther answered before as that the daunger of adoration may be taken away or hath no matter worthye the answeryng I onely admonishe the Reader that sytting at the communion is not holden to be necessarie but only I thinke that kneeling is verie daungerous for the causes before alleadged Io. Whitgifte An easy kinde of answering a verie slender defense for the crooked handeling of the scriptures by the authors of the Admonition But it is wittily done so to passe ouer that which you can not mainteyn Surely the authors of the Admonition are verie little beholding to you for in most places you leaue them to answer for thēselues If sitting at the cōmunion be not holden to be necessarie why do you then make a schisme Contention aboute externall rites become not the churche of God 1. Cor. 11. in the church for it do not you know y t M. Caluin M. Bullinger and others writing against the Anabaptists do especially condemne them for makyng a tumulte in the Churche aboute externall and indifferente things S. Paule sayeth If any luste to be contentious we haue no such custome neither the Churches of God and he meaneth in externall rites But the question is whether the church must giue place to you or you to the church in that thing that by your owne confession may be vsed Chap. 1. the. 17. Diuision Admonition The seuenth Then it was deliuered generally and indefinitely Take ye c Mat. 6. 26 Mar. 14. 22 1. Co. 11. 4 and eate ye we particularly and singularly take thou and eate thou Of the words take thou eate thou c. The plurall number includeth the singular Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 100. Sect. 3. 4. Here is a hyghe matter in a lowe house hee that sayeth Take ye and eate ye dothe hee not also saye in effecte take thou and eate thou Dothe not the Plurall number include the singular Christ Matth. 6. sayth Ad hunc igitur modum orate vos Praye ye on this maner maye we not therefore say pray thou on this maner if we speake to one singular person so speaking to all his Apostles he sayth Ite in vniuersum mundum Goe into all the vvorlde We vse the plurall number when we speake to many ioyntely we vse the singular number when we speake to one seuerallie And for as muche as euery one that receyueth this sacrament Euery one must apply the sacrament to him selfe hath to apply vnto himself the benefites of Christes death passion therefore it is conuenient to be sayde to euery one Take thou eate thou But this obiection is so ridiculous that it is more worthy to be hissed at than to be confuted T. C. Pag. 132. Sect. 2. Unto the three next sections conteyned in the. 100. 101. page I haue spoken already when as I shewed the general faults of the seruice booke only that is to be noted that M. Doctor still priuily pyncheth or euer he be aware at our sauiour Christes action in the first of these sections whē as he commendeth rather this forme of speaking take thou than that whiche our sauiour Christ vsed in saying take ye And if it be a good argument to proue that therefore we must rather saye take thou than take ye bycause the sacrament is an application of the benefites of Christ then for as muche as preaching is the applying of the benefites of Christ it behoueth that the Preacher should direct his admonitions particularly one after an other vnto all those whiche heare his sermon which is a thing absurde and therefore besides that it is good to leaue the popishe forme in those things whiche we may so conueniently do it is best to come as neere the maner of celebration of the supper which our sauiour Christ vsed as may be Io. Whitgifte I sée no difference betwixte them but onely in number for the whiche I haue giuen some reason before wherevnto you haue made no answere The similitude of preaching that you héere vse to improue my latter reason is very vnapte for there is great difference betwixte the meanes of exhibiting the benefites of Christ by his Sacraments and by preaching of his worde And yet there is none doubteth Particular exhortations moue more than general but that a man is more moued by that whiche is spoken to him particularly than he is with that whiche is spoken generally as well to other as to him selfe And therefore we may commonly note that godly and zelous Preachers euen in their generall exhortations vse oftentymes the singular number and seconde person as thoughe they spake to euery particular man seuerally Therefore be the commaundements giuē in that number person as Thou shalt haue no other Gods but me c. And Christ dothe vse the same maner of spéeche oftentimes in his sermon
Interrogatories were ministred to infantes at the time of their Baptisme and that they had sureties which we call godfathers that answered for them and in their name T. C. Pag. 134. Sect. 1. As for S. Augustines place although I can (*) not allow his reason that he maketh nor the proportion that is betweene the sacrament of the body and bloude of our Sauiour Christe and his body and bloude it selfe of one side and betwene the sacrament of Baptisme and fayth of the other side saying that as the sacrament of the body of Christe after a sorte is the body so the baptisme of the sacrament of fayth is after a sort fayth (a) whereas he should haue sayd that as the supper beyng the sacrament of the body of Christe is after a sorre the body of Christe so baptisme beyng a sacrament of the bloude of Christe is after a sorte the bloud of Christe For fayth is not the subiect of Baptisme as the body and bloude of Christ is the matter of the supper Yet I say that S. Augustine hath no one worde to approue this abuse of answering in the childes name and in his person but goeth about to establishe an other abuse which was that it was lawfull for those that presented the chylde to say that it beleeued so that it is lyke that the minister did aske those whiche presented the infant whither they thought that it was faythfull and did beleeue and those which presented it sayde it was so wherevpon this question rose whither it was lawfull to say that the chylde beleeued Io. Whitgifte I neuer hearde that any learned man as yet mislyked this place of Augustine but I knowe they haue vsed it as a moste manifest testimonie agaynst Transubstantiation and the Reall presence and as a true declaration wherefore the sacramentall breade and wyne be called the body and bloude of Christe beyng but the sacramentes of the bodie and bloude of Christe And nowe you with vnwashed handes not vnderstanding the place presume to giue a blinde and vnlearned censure vpon so worthie and learned a Father euen there where he speaketh moste soundly and learnedly But howe should your arrogancie else appeare The supper is a sacrament bothe of the body and bloud of Christe the breade of the body and the Rom. 4. wine of the bloude as S. Augustine there sayeth and Baptisme is truly called by him the Sacrament of fayth bycause it is Signaculum iustitiae fidei as Circumcision the figure of Baptisme was accordyng to the worde of the Apostle ad Rom. 4. and therefore in reprouing S. Augustine for callyng it the Sacrament of fayth you séeme to be ignorant of this place of the Apostle To this saying of Augustine doth that of Tertullian in his booke De Poenitentia very well agrée where he speakyng of Baptisme Tertull. sayeth Lauacrum illud obsignatio est Fidci That washyng is the sealyng of faythe And Chrysostome opere imp Homil. 5. in Matth. sayeth also that Baptisme is the seale of Chrysost. fayth neyther did euer any man before you mislike this kinde and phrase of speache that baptisme is the sacrament of fayth S. Augustines woordes be euident that there were questions in Baptisme moued in the name of the infant whiche coulde not be vnlesse there were also answering to the same Chap. 1. the. 3. Diuision Admonition Thyrdely they prophane holy Baptisme in toying foolishely for that they aske questions of an infante whiche can not answere and speake vnto them as was wonte to be spoken vnto men and vnto such as beyng conuerted answered for themselues and were Baptised Whiche is but a mockerie l Gal 6. 7. of God and therefore agaynst the holy Scriptures Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 192. Sect. 1. 2. To the thirde superstitious toy as you call it that is the questions demaunded of the Infant at the tyme of Baptisme I haue also answered Augustine alloweth questions to the infant out of S. Augustine in the firste parte where it may also appeare that this manner of questionyng was vsed in the Baptising of Infantes long before Augustines tyme for Dionysius Areopagita maketh mention of them in like manner To proue that this questioning with the infant is a mocking of God you quote Galat. 6. verse 7. Be not deceyued God is not mocked for vvhatsoeuer a man sovveth that shall he reape Paule in this place taketh away excuses which worldlinges vse to make for not nourishing theyr pastours for no feyned excuse will serue bycause God is not mocked But what is this to the questionyng with infantes howe followeth this God is not mocked Ergo he that questioneth with Infantes mocketh God Truely you mocke God when you so dally with his Scriptures and seeke rather the glorie of quoting of many places of Scripture than the true applying of any one T. C. Pag. 134. Sect. 2. In the. 191. and. 192. pages he speaketh of this agayne but he bothe nothing else but repeate in bothe places that whiche is here onely he sayeth that it is a mockyng of God to vse the place of the Galatians God is not mocked agaynst this abuse and his reason is bycause S. Paule speaketh there agaynst those that by feyned excuses seeke to defraude the Pastor of his liuyng as who shoulde saye S. Paule did not conclude that particular conclusion thou shalte not by friuolous excuses defraude the minister with this generall saying God is not mocked for his reason is God is not mocked at all or in any matter therefore he is not mocked in this or as who shoulde say bycause our Sauiour Christe saying that it is not lawfull to separate that whiche God hath ioyned speaking of diuorce it is not lawfull to vse this sentence beyng a generall rule in other thinges when as we knowe it is as well and properly vsed agaynst the Papistes which seuere the cup from the breade as agaynst the Iewes which put away their wiues for euery small and triflyng cause Io. Whitgifte In déede it is a very mocking of God thus to abuse the Scriptures for the Authours of the Admonition alleage this text to proue that to question with Infantes is to mocke God when there is not one worde in that place spoken of questioning with infantes and therefore this texte is alleaged without purpose except you will say that it is quoted onely for the Phrase and manner of speakyng It is true that God is not mocked but this proueth not that questioning in Baptisme is to mocke God and therefore vaynely it is applied Those which seuer the cuppe from the bread in the Lordes Supper do separate that which God hath coupled and therefore that text may well be alleaged agaynst them but suche as question in Baptisme in the name of those that are to be baptised do not mocke God and therefore that texte is in the Admonition altogither abused Chap. 1. the. 4. Diuision T. C. Pag. 134. Sect. vlt. And as for this
of your profession shoulde be ignorant in the nature and definition of a Sacrament A Sacrament I meane not in the largest signification but as it is properly vsed and as we call the Lordes Supper and Baptisme Sacramentes For Sacramentes in the proper signification be mysticall signes ordeyned by God himselfe consisting in the worde of The proper signification of sacraments God in figures and in things signified whereby he keepeth in mannes memorie and sometymes renueth his large benefites bestowed vpon his Church whereby also he sealeth or assureth his promises and sheweth outwardly and as it were layeth before oure eyes those things to beholde which inwardly he worketh in vs yea by them he strengthneth and increaseth our fayth by the holy Ghost working in our heartes And to be short by his Sacramentes he separateth vs from all other people from all other religions consecrating vs and binding vs to him onely and signifyeth what he requyreth of vs to be done Nowe euerie ceremonie signifying any thing hath not these conditions and propertyes Euery signifying ceremonie is not a acrament Wherefore euerie ceremonie signifying any thing is not a Sacrament and therefore crossing in Baptisme though it signifyeth some thing yet it is no Sacrament The allegory of sitting is dombe and speaketh nothing but to the signe of the crosse is added the signification in expresse woordes as I haue before declared wherefore there is more cause to condemne the one than there is to cōdemne the other More uer sitting at the Lordes supper hath not bene vsed in the Churche that I can reade of but crossing in baptising hath wherefore that were to inuent a newe Ceremonie and this is to reteyne the olde so that the reason of their allegorie and of this Ceremonie is not lyke Of refusing yle in baptisme the Churche hath iust cause and it vseth hir libertie in reteyning crossing neyther will it burden the Sacramentes with a multitude of vnnecessary and vnprofitable Ceremonies and yet reteyne such as shall be thought moste conuenient Chap. 3. the. 7. Diuision T. C. Pag. 137. Lin. 3. And to conclude I see no cause why some crosses should be vnlawefull and other some commendable and why it should be a monument of Popery in woode and metall and yet a Christian badge in the forehead of a man why we should not lyke of it in streates and hyghewayes and yet allowe of it in the churche Io. Whitgifte As there is great difference betwixt the paynting of an Image to sette foorth an historie and placing of it in the Churche to be worshipped so is there also as great difference or more betwixt crossing a childe in the forehead at the time of baptisme with expressing the cause and vse of it and the placing of crosses in Churches or highways and streates The crossing of the childes forehead is but for a moment the crosse of wood and stone remayneth and continueth the crosse in the childes forehead is not made to be adored and worshipped neyther was euer any man so madde as to imagine any such thing of it but the crosses in churches streates and highwayes of mettall and woode were erected to be worshipped and were so accordingly and therefore there is no like perill in the one as there is in the other ¶ Of the parties that are to be Baptised Chap. 4. The first Diuision Admonition ▪ That the parties to be baptised if they be of the yeares of (p) Math. 6. discretion by them selues and in their owne persones or if they be infantes by theyr parentes in whose rooine if vpon necessary occasion they be absent some one of the congregation knowyng the good behauiour and sounde faythe of the par tes may both make rehersall if theyr faythe and also if their fayth be sounde agreable to holy scriptures desyre to be in the same baptised And finally that nothyng be done in this or any other thing but that which you haue the expresse warrant of Gods worde for Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 111. Sect. 1. 2. I muse what you meane to saye on this sorte The parties to be baptised Of those that are to be baptised if they be of the yeares of discretion c. You knowe that in this Church of England none tarry for baptisme so long except it be in some secrete congregation of Anabaptistes The place alledged out of the third of Matthew telleth how they that were baptised cōfessed their sinnes it speaketh nothing of any confession of faith It is well that you admitte some to answere for the infant in the Of the parēts answering or their children absence of the parent and why not in his presence to what scripture haue you that the Parent at the baptising of his childe should make a rehersall of his fayth and desire that his childe should bee therein baptised this I desire to knowe for myne owne learning for I neither remember any such thing in scripture neither yet in any auncient wryter I do herein but desire to be instructed T. C. Pag. 139. Lin. 6. And bicause I would haue all those thyngs togither that touche this matter of baptisine I come to that which he hath in the next Section and in III. page where after his olde manner he wrangleth and quarrelleth For although the Admonition speaketh so playnely and so clearely that as Hesiod sayth it myght 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 satisfie Momus yet M. Doctor goeth about there to bryng it in suspicion of Anabaptisme bicause allowing in playne wordes the baptisme of infantes they adde that if the parties be of discretion and yeares them selues in their own persons should demaunde to be baptised For sayth he in this Church they tary not for baptisme so long But is ther no cause or may there not be when they that be of age may be baptised It may be there are Iewes in Englande which vnderstanding their blyndnes and confessing their synne may desyre to be baptised and here be dyuers Mores in noble mens gentlemens houses which are sometimes brought to the knowledge of Christe whereby th re is some vse and practise of this case Io. Whitgifte Anabaptisme being so crafty an heresy that it dissembleth many things vntill it Anabaptisme a crafty heresy haue sufficient ayde a man can not be to suspicious of it especially in those that walke in steppes so lyke vnto it And yet I speake nothing in that place that may bryng the A thours of the Admonition into suspicion of Anabaptisme vnlesse they suspect them selues or that you would haue them suspected for you knowe the olde prouerbe Conscius ipse sibi c. It may be in deede that there be Iewes in Englande Mores Turkes 〈◊〉 and that some of them being conuerted to the fayth be afterward baptised and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 it is so but the case is very rare and there is no man that doubteth but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to be examined in their fayth before they be admitted to
stirre the foundation And surely howesoeuer you will dallie off these Collections vppon your manyfest wordes similitudes and reasons with some deuised interpretation and shifte for it will stande you in hande so to doe yet what occasion you haue giuen therby to the common people and other that be contentious to mislyke of this present state and gouernmente wyse men can consider And to tell you playne excepte you haue some mysticall sense in them whiche I can not conceiue I sée not howe they can stande with your alleagiance I speake of the wordes as you haue vttered them I wil not enter into the depth of your meaning And I will hope the best vntil I vnderstand further of your mynde Chap. 2. the. 18. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 133. Lin. 1. Neyther is there any authoritie in the whole Bible that enforceth or prescribeth that kinde of gouernment as necessarie or conuenient for all tymes no more than there is to proue that in the Churche there must be always such as haue power to work miracles or that haue the gift of healing and such like whiche offices notwithstanding are mentioned as well as gouernours in the first to the Cor. 12. T. C. Pag. 144. Sect. vlt. Nowe to come agayn to M. Doctors reasons he sayeth in the. 133. page that if they vrge gouernors bicause they are spoken of in the. 1 to the Cor. then they may aswell vrge the power o work miracles the gift of healing c. for that they are likewise reckned vp in the same place But doth not M. Doccor know that although some things be extraordinarie and for a time yet other some things are ordinarie and to endure always wil he say for that the gifts of miracles and of healing are extraordinarie therfore the teachers which are there reckned together with the gifte of working miracles and of healing are extraordinarie hath he forgotten that he in deed vntruly made before the office of Apostles prophetes and euangelistes a perpetual office and yet they are there ioyned with these gifts which were but for a time and therfore it is a very absurd argument to say that for that some thing reckened with gouernours is for a tyme and extraordinarie therfore the gouernours also be so Io. Whitgifte And howe proue you that the office of Seniors is more ordinarie or of longer continuance than the office of Apostles Prophetes the power of working miracles and of healing which be in that place recited as well as those gouernours be whome you call Seniors You ought to haue proued the office of Seniors to be perpetuall for that I denye and shewe my reason that it can not be proued out of that place bycause other offices mentioned in that place to the Corinthians be temporall But this béeing moste materiall you passe it ouer bycause you are not able to proue it I hane tolde you before in what sense there may be both Apostles Prophets and Euangelistes And if I can not necessarily conclude y t the office of Seniors is temporal bicause it is rehersed among those offices gifts y t be tēporal much lesse can you cōclude that it is perpetuall the moste of the offices and giftes with it expressed béeing temporall Chap. 2. the. 19. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 133. Lin. 9. Well sayth Musculus in his common places tit de Magist. Si reuocas temporum illorum mores primùm conditiones statum quoque illorum reuoca If thou vvilte vse the maners of that time first cal agayne the condition and state of that time That is let vs be without christian Magistrates as they were let vs be vnder Tyrants and persecutors as they were c. T. C. Page 145. Lin. 11. As for Musculus authoritie which is that the times doe chaunge the orders besides that I haue answered before besides that he doth not speake it of the Elders I haue proued that it can haue no place heere for somuch as the Elders are necessarie and commaunded in the scripture Io. Whitgifte Musculus in that place speaketh of the gouernment of the Church and of the authoritie of the ciuill Magistrate in matters ecclesiasticall And proueth that the gouernment of the Church may not be now as it was in the Apostles time And a little before speaking of the Seigniorie he affirmeth as much as it appeareth in his words before recited You haue not as yet proued eyther the office of Seniors nowe to be necessarie or the same to be commaunded in the Scripture Chap. 2. the. 20. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 133. in the midst You say it is more easie for the wicked by bribing to peruert and corrupt one man than to peruert and ouerthrowe the fayth and pietie of a zelous and godly companie and therefore better the gouernment of the Churche to be committed to many than to one If this Retortion 〈◊〉 absurdi ▪ reason be good then the more there be that rule the better is the gouernment and so popularis status erit optimus reipublicae status agaynst all both diuinitie and Philosophie for we see that God him selfe in his common weale of Israell did alwayes allowe the gouernment and superioritie of one ouer the rest bothe in the time of Iudges and after in the time of the Kings And in the newe Testament we may also see that kind of gouernment most allowed of 1. Pet. 2. But I will not heere reason with you in this matter and call that into question which hath bin by so many learned men determined and by the examples of all good common weales confirmed T. C. Pag. 145. Sect. 1. Unto the Authors of y e Admonition saying y t it is easier to ouerthrow by bribing one mā than the fayth pietie of a godly companie he answereth that so it should come to passe that the moe y t ruled the better estate it should be and so the popular estate should be the best But where do the authors of the Admonition say that the more that rule the better it is Is it all one to saye that the gouernment of a fewe of the best is better than the gouernment of one and to saye the more that rule the better If it were to the purpose it might be shewed bothe by Diuinitie and by Philosophie which M. Doctor speaketh of that that estate which he meaneth is not the best and I haue in a worde before spoken of where I declared that the mixed estate is best bothe by the example of the kingdome of Christ and also of this our realme Io. Whitgifte But if this be a g od reason agaynst the rule and gouernment of one that the Admonition vseth then the moe that rule the better it is and this is all that I charge thē with Whervnto you answere not one worde but dally off the matter by asking where do the authors of the Admonition say that the moe that rule the better it is I might dally
first priuately admonished this maketh nothing for your purpose it taketh away authoritie of iudging and condemning from priuate men and not from publike magistrates In the. 12. of the first to the Corinth verse 28. these be the words of the Apostle And God hath ordeyned some in the Churche as first Apostles secondly Prophetes thirdly teachers then them that do miracles after that the gifte of healing helpers gouernours diuersitie of tounges How can you gather of these wordes that all this commeth to passe that is hatred fauour corruption by money and affection in iudgement bycause the regiment lefte of Christe to his Churche is committed to one mans hands In these wordes the Apostle declareth that Christ hath lefte in his Churche gouernours and thereof you may well conclude that in the Churche there muste be some whiche shoulde haue authoritie ouer the reste The Apostle dothe not here An vnperfect reason say that in euery particular congregation Christ hath left many gouernours no more than he sayeth that he hath left many pastors for one flocke but in his Churche he hath ordeyned gouernours The gouernement of the whole vniuersall Churche is not by Christe committed to one Bishop or one Prince nor the gouernment of the whole worlde to one Emperour for no one man can discharge such a cure and therefore he hath appoynted in his Churche diuers Bishops diuers Princes many gouernours But one Prince may suffise to gouerne one kingdome and one Archbishop one Prouince as chiefe and principall ouer the reste one Byshop one Diocesse one Pastor one parishe neyther doth the Apostle speake any thing to the contrarie In the. 12. to the Romaines it is thus written he that ruleth vvith diligence What maketh this for your purpose or how cā you wring it to your assertion In the. 5. of the. 1. to Timothie The Elders that rule vvell are vvorthy of double honour c. Paule sheweth in these wordes that suche are worthy theyr stipende reward which rule well in the Church and do their duties diligently But what is that to your assertion The places alledged out of the fiftenth of the Actes be of the like sorte Wheresoeuer mention is made in the Scriptures of gouernours Lacke of discretion in al ging of scriptures or Elders that you alledge to improue the gouernment of one man wherein you shewe a great wante of iudgement And yet there is no one person in this Realme the Prince only excepted which hath such absolute iurisdiction as you would make your disciples beleue But your meaning is that Christe lefte the whole gouernment of his Churche to the Pastor and to some foure of fiue of the Parish besides which you are not able to proue your places of scripture alleged signifie no such matter In those places y t be gouerned by many do you not see what cōtention there is what enimitie what factiōs what partes taking what cōfusion what little good order obserued what carelesnesse dissolutnesse in al māner of behauiour I could make this manifest by examples if I were disposed In the. 18. of Exodus which place you quote to proue that Seniors ought to be zelous and godly Iethro giueth Moses counsell not to weary himselfe in hearing all matters that be brought vnto him but rather to commit the hearing and determining of smaller matters to others And therefore verse 21. he sayeth Prouide thou among all the people men of courage fearing God men dealyng truly hauing couetousnesse and appoynt suche ouer them to be rulers ouer thousands rulers ouer hundredes rulers ouer fifties and rulers ouer tennes c. This maketh nothing for Seniors Moses here was chiefe these were but his vnder officers placed by himselfe This place serueth well for the gouernment of one Prince ouer one whole realme and giueth him good counsell what vnder officers he ought to choose To the same effect and purpose is that spoken and written whiche you cite out of the first of Deuteron verse 13. T. C. Pag. 146. Sect. 1. The rest comprehended in these sections is answered before beyng matter whiche perteyned vnto the Archbishop Io. Whitgifte Uery litle of it perteyneth to the Archbishop The Authors of y ◠Admonitiō bring in all these places of Scripture to proue the gouernment of your Seniors but how aptly it app areth in that you cannot salue their follies in so vnapt allegatiōs There be other thinges that require answere but you haue shifted of all in saying that they perteyne to the Archbishop be answered before when as neyther of both is true for they perteyne to your Seniors and be no where as yet answered But I leaue it to the Reader here to consider why you haue not set downe my booke in your Replie ¶ The inconuenience of the Seigniorie in the tyme of Christian Princes especially in the state of this Church Chap. 3. Nowe that you haue spoken all that you can for your Seniors giue me leaue a litle to declare the absurdities and inconueniences that must of necessitie follow that kinde of gouernment 1. Difference disagrement in orders and religion First euery seuerall parish must be as it were a seuerall Church gouerned by seuerall orders ceremonies yea and peraduenture professe seueral points of doctrine for there muste be equalitie among ministers and one of them muste not haue to do with anothers parishe The whole gouernment of the Parish must remayne in the minister and certayne Seniors who shall haue authoritie to correct vice abolishe ceremonies appoynt orders abregate customes make Ecclesiasticall lawes as they shall thinke good for that congregation So that whatsoeuer the Pastor and his Seniors deuise and agrée vpon be it good or euill common or singular it must be obeyed vnder the payne of Excommunication Secōdly that Seigniorie being choosen by the Pastor the parish if the Prince or 2. Confusion of 〈◊〉 any other noble man be of that congregation choosen to that office by the most parte he must not refuse it but attende vpō it be at M. Pastors calling who is the chiefe of the Seigniorie in that respect aboue Earle Duke Ring or whosoeuer moreouer he must be contented to be lincked ioyned in commission with the basest sort of the people if it please the parish to appoynt to him suche Colleags as it is like they will Yea and if they be in matters of discipline and gouernment by such simple Seniors ouerruled as it is most like they shall they must therewith be contented Thirdly it burdeneth the parish more than they are able to beare for wheras now 3. Burden and charge of parishes they repine at the finding of their Pastors then they muste be enforced besides the Pastor to nourish Deacons and sixe or seuen Seniors with widowes also Fourthly it bringeth in a new Popedome tyrānie into the Church for it giueth 4. Tyranny to the Pastor his fellow Seniors authoritie to exercise discipline by
all learned men both liuing dead They may well be sayde to haue sealed this booke wyth their bloud How they sea led the booke with their bloud bicause they were martyred for that religion that is conteyned in this booke and according to the which this booke was framed and if they were condemned for improuing the articles drawne out of the Masse booke ▪ as you say why maye it not be likewise affirmed that they receyued the sentence of condemnation for approuing the Articles conteyned in the Communion booke I know the booke they dyed for was the booke of God yet did not the aduersarie pretende that but the articles drawne out of this and suche like bookes grounded vpon the worde and booke of God Name one of them who at the time of his death or in y e time of his imprisonmēt declared openly his misliking of certayne things in this booke I can shew you the contrarie That notable vessell of God for learning zeale and vertue inferiour to none of our M. Ridleys testimonie of the booke of cōmon prayer age Master Ridley Bishop of London in his last farewell as it is called looking dayly and hourely when he should go to the stake giueth this testimonie of this same booke of common prayers the whiche the Churche of Englande nowe vseth and you so contemptuously reiect This Churche sayth he of Englande had of late of the M. Foxe infinite goodnesse and abundant grace of almightie God great substance great riches of heauenly treasure plentie of Gods true and sincere worde the true and vvholsome administration of Christes holy sacraments the whole profession of Christes religion truely and playnely set foorth in baptisme the playne declaration and vnderstanding of the same taught in the holy ▪ Catechisme to haue bin learned of all true Christians This Church had also a true and sincere forme and maner of the Lords supper wherin according to Iesus Christes ordināce holy institution Christes cōmaundements were executed and done For vpon the bread and wine set vpon the Lords table thāks were giuen the commemoration of the Lords death was had the bread in the remembrance of Christes body torne vpon the crosse was broken and the cuppe in remembrance of Christes bloud was distributed and both communicated vnto all that were present and woulde receyue them and also they were exhorted of the minister so to do All was done openly in the vulgare tongue so that euery thing mighte be bothe easily heard and playnely vnderstoode of all the people to Gods high glory and the edification of the whole Church This Church had of late the whole diuine seruice all common and publike prayers ordeyned to be sayde and heard in the common congregarion not onely formed and fashioned to the true vayne of the holy Scripture but also set foorth according to the commaundement of the Lorde and S. Paules doctrine for the peoples edification in their vulgar tongue But I knowe his testimonie shall weigh with you as all other mens doe howbeit I trust it will pearce the hearts of the godly Neyther is this to oppose the bloud of men to the bloud of the sonne of God when the martyrdome of men is brought into beare witnesse vnto the truthe of God Chap. 1. the. 3. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 149. Sect. vlt. 150. Sect. 1. 2. The vnperfectnesse of this booke and such things in the fame as be culled and picked out of that popishe dunghill the Masse booke with the contents therein that be agaynst the worde of God shall appeare I am sure in your seuerall reasons for it is not sufficient for you barely to saye so without witte learning or reason This you know right wel that in so saying you make the Papists Aduantage gi uen to the papistes by the Admonitours leape for ioye bicause they haue gotten suche companions to assaulte this booke whylest they rest them lye as it were in sleepe O that the wyse men of this realme suche I meane as be in authoritie see not this Popishe practise and seeke not with more earnestnesse to preuent it Will ye suffer the Papists to gather strength and to multiplie by tollerating such Libellers vnder the pretēce of reformatiō to discredite so muche as lyeth in them yea to ouerthrow the whole state and substance of religion in this Churche Bee not secure but watche and remember the beginning and encrease of the Anabaptistes of late in Germanie whiche I haue described in my Preface to this booke You saye that you can not but much maruell at the craftie wilynesse of those men whose partes it had beene first to haue proued eache and euery content therin to be agreable to Gods word c. Nay surely but it were your parts rather to proue The apponēt must proue by rules of Logike that there is something therein contrarie or not agreable to Gods worde For such as be learned and knowe the manner of reasoning say that the Opponent must proue or improue and not the answerer They stande to the defense and mayntenance of the booke you seeke to ouerthrowe it it is your partes therfore to iustifie your assertions by reasons and arguments T. C. Pag. 157. Sect. 1. For the Papistes triumphe I haue answered before and I will not striue about the Goates 〈◊〉 who is the apponent and who the respondent in this difference Io. Whitgifte Thus you passe all this ouer in silence for I doe not remember where you haue answered one worde to it Chap. 1. the. 4. Diuision Admonition They should first proue by the worde of God that a reading seruice going before and with the administration of the sacraments is according to the worde of God that wafer cakes for theyr bread when they minister it surplesse and cope to doe it in churching of women comming in vayles abuong the Psalme to hir I haue lifted vp mine eyes vnto the hilles c. and suche other Psal. 120. foolishe things are agreable to the written worde of the almightie Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 151. Sect. 2. 152. Sect 1. I doe not well vnderstande your meaning would you haue vs to proue that to reade prayers before and with the administration of The order of prayers in the Communion booke agreable to y e scripture the sacraments is according to the worde of God In deede in the booke of seruice there is first appoynted to be read some one or two profitable sentences mouing eyther to prayer or to repentance after followeth a generall confession then the Lords prayer and certayne Psalmes nexte certayne chapters out of the olde and newe Testamente c. laste of all the administration of the sacramente If you aske me of the sentences they be scripture If of the Lordes prayer Psalmes and chapters they be scripture also If of the sacrament of the Supper it is according to scripture Matth. 26. Marke 14. Luke 22. 1. Cor. 11. If of
T. C. Pag. 170. Sect. 2. As for Elias killing the false Prophetes and our Sauiour Christs whippyng out of the temple it is straunge that M. Doctor will alledge them as thinges to be followed when he may as well teach that we may call for fire from heauen as Elias did and beyng demaunded answere nothyng as our Sauiour did as to followe these actions whiche are moste singular and extraordinarie And if these one or two examples be enough to breake the order that God hath sette by this a man may proue that the mynisters may be fishers and tente makers bycause Peter and Paule beyng ministers did fishe and make tents And truely these are not so extraordinary and from the generall rule as the other be And it was permitted in a Councell that rather than a minister should haue two benefices he might labour with his handes to supply his wante Tom. 〈◊〉 Nic 〈◊〉 1 withall Io. Whitgifte Yet by these examples especially by the examples of Christ it may appeare that Ecclesiasticall persons haue vsed corporall punishments which you call ciuill I knowe examples make no rule and therfore al your argumentes out of the scriptures alleadged before to proue that the election of ministers ought to be popular receyue the same answere that you giue to me in this place and yet examples if they be not agaynst any commaundement or good order established declare what hath bene and what vppon the lyke occasions may be done but not what of necessitie ought to be doone If you can proue any order of God sette downe that an Ecclesiasticall person may by no meanes exercise any ciuill offices I yelde vnto you if you can not do it then do I alledge no examples tending to the breakyng of any order that God hath set I knowe not why the ministers of the Gospell may not do as Peter Paule did vpon the lyke occasion And therfore your alledging of y e corrupt Councel of Nice which not withstanding you haue not 〈◊〉 alleaged is not necess ie I haue spoken of that Canon before and therfore will not trouble the Reader with it nowe being from this purpose Chap. 3. the. 11. Diuision T. C. Pag. 170. Sect. 2. 3. When Sainct Paule willed Tim. that he shoulde not receyue an accusation agaynst an elder vnder two or three witnesses he did committe nothing lesse than any ciuill office vnto him And M. Doctor himselfe hathe alleadged it before as a thing incident to the office of a Byshop and therefore he doth forget himselfe maruellously now that maketh this a ciuill office And doth M. Doctor thinke that S. Paule made magistrates Or is he of that iudgemente that the Church in the time of persecution may make ciuill officers But it is true that he that is once ouer the shoes sticketh not to runne ouer his bootes Io. Whitgifte I alleadged it before to proue the superioritie of Bishops ouer other ministers The iur tion of Timothie in some respect ciuill Now I do alledge it to proue that the same byshops may exercise that iurisdiction which you call ciuill for in that the iudgement of such causes were committed vnto him it argueth his superioritie in that there is named accusers and witnesses it declareth a kind of eiuil iurisdiction to the which those words do perteine So that Timothie being an ecclesiastical person had prescribed vnto him that kind of proceeding to iudgement that may be called ciuill Chap. 3. the. 12. Diuision Ansvver to the Admonition Page 218. Sect. 1. It pleaseth you to say that it is against Gods worde for Byshops to haue prisons but your margent is very barren of proofes for you haue not quoted one place of scripture to proue it onely you say that Popish Eugenius did first bring them in whiche is a very slender argument to proue them to be against the word of God Did not Peter punish Ananias and Saphira very streightly for their dissimulation Surely farre more greeuously than if he had put them in prison and yet their offence was not against any ordinarie law made in the Churche or common weale But where reade you that Eugenius did first inuent them T. C. Pag. 170. Sect. vlt. And last of all to proue that byshops may haue prisons he citeth Peter which punished Ananias and Saphira with death M. Doctor muste vnderstande that thys was 〈◊〉 power and was done by vertue of that function whyche Sayncte Paule calleth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 1. Cor. 12. whiche is one of those functions that the Lorde placeth in hys Churche for a tyme. But is thys a good argumente Bycause Saincte Peter punished with the worde therfore the minister may punishe with the sword And bicause Sainct Peter didde so once therfore the Bishop may doe so alwaye And bycause Sainct Peter did that whiche appertayneth to no ciuill magistrate ▪ and whyche no ciuill magistrate by any meanes maye or can doe therfore the minister maye doe that whyche apperteyneth vnto the Ciuill magistrate For if there hadde bin a ciuill magistrate the same coulde not haue punished this faulte of dissimulation whiche was not knowne nor declared it selfe by anye outewarde action So that if this example proue any thing it proueth that the minister may doe that no man may doe but the Lorde onely whyche is to punishe faultes that are hidde and vnknowne If this bee ignorance it is very grosse and if it be against knowledge it is more daungerous I haue determined with my selfe to leaue vnto M. Doctor his outcryes and declamations and if I shoulde haue vsed them as often as he giueth occasion there woulde be no ende of writing The Lorde giue M. Doctor eyther better knowledge or better conscience Io. Whitgifte I vse this example of Peter to shewe that is not agaynst Gods worde for the ministers Ministers may vse temporall punishment of the Gospell to punishe any by imprisonmente For Peter béeing a minister of the Gospell dyd punyshe with death whiche is muche more than to imprison and as Peter did this lawfully by an extraordinarie power so maye the ministers of the woorde punishe by imprisonmente whiche is a farre lesse kynde of punishment beyng lawfully therevnto authorised by the ciuill Magistrate accordyng to the orders of the common wealth and state of the Churche Therfore my reason is this Peter punished with temporall punishement being a minister of the worde and he dyd nothing repugnant to his vocation therfore it is not repugnant to the office of a minister of the worde to punishe with temporall punishment Agayne Peter punished with death therfore the minister maye punishe with imprisonment I speake de facto of the deede done not de modo of the maner of doing is And I doubte not but that séeing it was lawfull for Peter to kill by an especiall and extraordinarie power so it may be lawfull for the minister of the word to imprison by an vsuall and ordinarie power And so are all your
zeale is euen that that Zuinglius doth charge the Anabaptists with when he sayth Ira est non spiritus quo se venditant The ansvvere to certaine Pamphlets c. In this portion entituled An exhortation to the Bishops to deale brotherly with their brethren ther is no great matter conteined worthie of answering only the author doth excuse himselfe for taking vpon him that exhortation moueth the Bishops to deale brotherly with the authors of the Admonition First bicause they be their rethren secondly bicause they ought first to haue discouered vnto the world by the word of God howe truely or falsely they haue written Thyrdely bycause they do but disclose the disorders of our Churche of England and humbly desyre a reformation of the same according to the rule of Gods worde c. Fourthly that Papists lye abroade in their dioces vntouched c. Fiftly that many lewde light bookes and balades flye abroade printed not onely withoute reprehension but Cum priuilegio Likewise in y e same booke the author seemeth to iustifie the Admonitiō to condemne the lordship and authoritie of Bishops ascribing thervnto the stay hinderance of their pretenced reformation charging them after a sorte with mangling the Scriptures of God and with snaring the godly with such lawes as were purposely made for the wicked These be the principall contentes of that booke The first reason that is That they be their brethren might as wel be alleaged Bretheren may be punished for the impunitie of Anabaptists Arrians and such like who pretend the sinceritie of gods word and would be counted brethren yea it might as well be alleaged for many other malefactours who be also brethren and yet must not therfore escape vnpunished for their offences Shall not the Prince and the magistrate execute lawes vpon suche as breake them bicause they be their brethren in Chryst Beware of such doctrine and let not affection in priuate mens causes carie you headlong into publike errors But I thinke you are in this pointe deceiued for howsoeuer we accompte them our brethren yet they accompt not vs their brethren neyther will they acknowledge vs so to be as some of them both in open speache and manifest signes haue declared And therfore when the Bishops deale with them they deale with suche as disdayn to be called their brethren T. C. Page 177. Sect. 3. After M. Doctor confuteth his owne shadow for the exhortatiō doth not require that the name of a brother should deliuer the authors of the Admonition from punishment if they deserued it but desi eth that it might worke some moderation of the rigoure of it and compassion to minister to their necessities in prison He sayeth that the authors of the Admonition take not them for theyr brethren yes verily although vnbrotherly handled and for fathers too and so both loue them and reuerence them vntill which we hope will not be they shall manyfestly for the vpholdi g of their owne kingdome and profite refuse to haue Christe to reigne ouer vs in whome this fatherhoode and brotherhoode doth consist Io. Whitgifte Let the readers iudge whether it be one of their reasons or no let them also consider that which I haue before alledged out of the second Admonition pag. 35. then tell me whether they take vs for brethren or no. Can you so well please your selues in your own platforme y t except we admit it we refuse Christ to reigne ouer vs I trust he hath reigned ouer vs hitherto and shall doo to the end though your platforme be sunke to the bottome of the sea An ansvvere to certaine Pamphlets To their second reason I answer that I thinke they haue bin talked with and heard what they haue to say for them selues but their hautie mindes and good opinion conceyued of themselues will not suffer them to see their errours In this reason you alledge nothyng for them but that which may also be alledged for the Papists or any other sect of heretikes But it is an old saying Turpe est doctori c. How hapneth it that they themselues haue first defamed not the Bishops only but also this whole Church of England with publike libells before they haue vsed brotherly and priuate conference This is to espie a moate in an other mannes eye c. How true the thirde reason is may appeare in my answere to their Admonition but how true soeuer it were yet their disordered disclosyng by vnlawful meanes that is by libelling deserueth as much punishment as hitherto they haue had for the truth nedeth no such vngodlie meanes of disclosyng If Papists goe abroade vnpunished when by lawe they maye be touched surely it is a greate faulte and can not bee excused and I praye God it maye bee better looked to But thys is no good and sufficient reason for the impunitie of other Bicause some Papistes be not punished shal therfore no disordered persons be punished Or bicause some in authoritie winke at some Papists shall therfore no lawes be executed towardes any offenders Surely touchyng malice agaynst the forme and state of this oure Churche I see no greate difference betwixt them and the Papists and I think verily they both conspire together The same answere I make to youre first reason shall no booke be suppressed bicause some be not It is a faulte I confesse to suffer lewde Ballades and Bookes touchyng Ballets manners But it were a greater faulte to suffer bookes and Libells disturbing the peace of the Churche and defacing true religion Concerning the titles and offices of Bishops I haue spoken sufficiently before In manglyng and wrestyng of the Scriptures none offende so muche as doe the authors of the Admonition who in that point are comparable to the Papistes as may be seene by the learned and diligent Reader If they whom they terme godly do willingly offende against such lawes as were made for the wicked they are to be punished according to the lawes neyther are they to be spared bicause they pretende Godlinesse bre keth no lawe godlynesse for there is no godlinesse in breaking of lawes The thirde scroule called An Exhortation to the Bishoppes and to theyr Cleargie to answere a little booke c. is satisfyed I trus e for I haue as it is there required answered the short and peeuishe Pamphlet as they tearme it I haue disclosed their double and corrupt dealing theyr wringing of the Scriptures to serue their turne and haue declared the true sense meaning of thē I haue not bumbast d it with rethorike but in plain simple maner vttered my iudgement according to uncient fathers contemned o ned men the true meaning and sense of the Scriptures notwithstanding I haue in sundrie pointes declared the vse of the Church of Christ in tymes past and do vse the testimonie of auncient Councels and learned fathers whiche these vnlearned men vnlearnedly contemne a thing not heard of in any age or Churche nor allowed of
any learned man but onely of certaine heretikes and especially Anabaptists To be short I haue not answered the booke by peeces but wholy Howbeit I must desyre them to pardon me for not making more speede with my answere their friuolous quotations so troubled me and my other businesse that I could no sooner make an ende of it In all the rest of that deryding Pamphlet there is nothing of any moment Augustine recor ed vpon the abu tsary worth the answering Therefore as they alledge this portion of a sentence taken out of S. Augustine in his Epistle ad Vinc n. Si terrerentur non docerentur improba quasi dominatio videretur If they shoulde be feared and not taught it might seme a vvicked gouernance so I con lude with the other part of the same sentence Si docerentur non terrerentur vetustate consuetudinis bdurarentur ad capescendam viam salutis pigrius mouerentur If they should be taught and not feared in time they vvoulde vvaxestubburne and bethe hardlier moued to imbracethe vvay of saluation T. C. Pag. 177. Sect. vlt. I know not whether they haue bene conferred with or no but I thinke the first reason which they had to perswade them was that they should go to Newgate ▪ which is that which the Exhortation cō layneth of after that they are first punished before they be taught And in this beh lfe M. Doctor hath no cause to complaine as he doth For if he list he may learne or euer he go to prison Io. Whitgifte If they were so sent to that place it was a méete reward for such disorderly dealing for ignorance may not excuse Libellers if they libell but against a priuate man much lesse shoulde it excuse them slaundering in that maner this whole Church and realme I doubt not but that I shall learne to know my selfe to do mydutie whilest I am out of prison so that I shall not iustly for lacke of dutie and honestie deserue it T. C. Pag. 178. Lin. 2. And as for the truth of the cause and wresting and mangling of the Scriptures in most places where they are sayde to mangle and wrest and how he hath answered the r quest of the Exhortation which is to confute the Admonition by the Scriptures and how truly ptly and learnedly M. Doctor hath behaued himself in citing of the old Councels and fathers I leaue it to be esteemed partly of that which I haue sayde and partly by the deeper consideration of those which bycause they can better iudge may see further into M. Doctors faults-and rapfodyes than I can Although the truth is that I haue bicause I would not make a long booke by heaping of one reprehension vpon an other contented my selfe rather to trip as it were and to passe ouer with a light foote the heades and summes of things than to number the faults which are almost as many as there are sentences in this booke more I am sure than there are pages Io. Whitgifte I haue confuted both them and you according to the giftes and grace that God hath gyuen mée with suche authorityes both of Scriptures and other learned Auth ours as is fitte to be vsed in the decyding of suche controuersies And I am well assured that you haue not omitted the least blot in my booke and for the most part you haue feyned agaynst your owne knowledge those to be whiche are not I refuse no mans iudgement of my dealing with the olde Councels and fathers that is learned and will speake without affection what he thinketh Your hyperbolicall conclusion or figure of lying where with you close vp your booke I am well vsed vnto and therefore it doth nothing trouble me but remayneth as a certaine note of the spirite that possesseth you which is the spirite of vntruth THus haue I according to that talent that God hath committed vnto me endeuoured my selfe to defende the state of this Church of England and the orders and rites therein by publyke authoritie established agaynst the slaunderous libelles of certaine vnquiet persons and this vncharitable replie of T. C. If eyther I haue omitted any thing that might haue béene vttered as I haue omitted many things or not so fully answered euery poynt that all men thereby may be satisfied namely such as will be satisfied with reason I doubt not but that there be a great number of singular learning and knowledge which will fulfill my want The which I do desire them most heartily to do euen for the loue that they haue to the peace of the Church not to suffer so common and weightie a cause to rest onely vpon one mans shoulder so farre inferiour to so many of them in all respects The contrarie part ceasse not to lay theyr heades togither and to make it all theyr cases which would more euidently appeare if their might were according to their will Therefore séeing that we like and allowe of the state let vs not suffer it to be defaced vniustly and without either learning or truth And if it shall please the contrarie part to answere this my defense then do I require no other thing of them than the selfe same which the Author of the Replie hath required of me and the which I haue accordingly performed that is that they set downe my wordes and answere me wholy which vnlesse they do they shal not onely with all wise men greatly dis redite themselues and shewe the lacke of truth to be on their side but also ease me of some paynes for I purpose not to answere Pamphlets nor to spend the time in confuting friuolous Libels The Lorde graunt that my labours may worke that effect that I desire that is peace in the Church and true obedience in the heartes of the Subiects Amen ¶ An examination of the places cited in the end of the Replie touching matters in controuersie T. C. ACcording to my promise made in my boke I haue here set down the iudgemēt of the later writers concerning these matters in controuersie betwene vs. VVherin bicause I loue not to translate out of other mens workes whereby I might make mine to grow I haue kept this moderation that I neither set downe all the writers nor all their places that I coulde nor yet of euery singular matter But the chiefest writers and either of the chiefest points or else of those wherein they are alledged against vs by M. Doctor and one only place of eache as farre as I coulde iudge and chose out most directe to that wherefore I haue alledged it For otherwise if I would haue spoken of all the pointes and of the iudgement of all the writers and gathered all the places that I coulde they would haue ben sufficient matter of an other boke as bigge or rather bigger than this I must also admonishe the Reader that I haue forborne in certeine of these titles to sette downe the iudgements of M Beza M. Bullinger and M. Gualter bycause they
not mentioned in the scriptures but also manifestly oppugned it is to bold hard a speech that I say no more to et the petegree of the Archbishop from the Apostles times and from the Apostles themselues Io. Whitgifte I must answere you still as Zuinglius answered the Anabaptists in the like obiection and as I haue answered you before the Papists make their traditions necessarie vnto saluation and therefore they are to be reiected bicause the worde of God conteyneth all things necessarie to saluation I make those offices part of decencie order Ecclesiasticall gouernment and pollicie whiche admitteth alteration as the tymes and persons require and are not particularly expressed in the Scriptures no more than diuerse other things be in the same kinde as I haue prooued before And that this may séeme no straunge matter or any thing fauouring the Papists vnwritten verities you may call to remembrance that which M. Caluin sayth of such traditions Caluine vpon these wordes 1. Cor. 11. Quemadmodum tradidi vobis instituta tenetis I do not denie sayth he but that there were some traditions of the Apostles not written c. as I Tract 2. haue before recyted speaking of Ceremonies not expressed in the worde And you may sée that wise and learned men are not so scrupulous in Apostolicall traditions not written so that they be not such as are made necessarie vnto saluation neyther is any learned man of contrarie iudgement And therefore Archbishops may well be brought from the Apostles tymes without any daunger of admitting the vnwritten verities of the Papists You haue not yet proued that eyther the name or office of Archbishoppes is in any respect oppugned in the worde of God and therefore that is but feyned Chap. 3. the. 27. Diuision T. C. Pag. 81. Sect. 1. But all this time M. doctor hath forgotten his question which was to proue an Archbishop whereas all these testimonies which he alledgeth make mention onely of a bishop therefore this may rather confirme the state of the bishop in this realme than the Archbishop But in the answere vnto them it shal appeare that as there is not in these places so much as the name of an Archbishop mentioned so except only the name of a Bishop there shall be founde very little agreement betwene the Bishops in those dayes and those which are called Bishops in our time and with vs. Io. Whitgifte M. Doctor remembreth that the Authours of the Admonition aswell denie the office of a Bishop as the office of an Archbishop and hée is not ignorant that the proofe of the one is the confirmation of the other and therefore he vseth suche testimonies as perteyne to them both of the whiche nature those places be that he hath hitherto alledged For you muste vnderstande that I spake before of the name and nowe according to my promise I speake of the office whiche is not so farre distant from the Bishops but that in moste things they be confounded But let vs nowe heare how you performe your promise Chap. 3. the. 28. Diuision T. C. Pag. 81. Sect. 2. And consequently although M. doctor thought with one whiting boxe to haue whited two walles by establishing our Archbishop and Bishop by the same testimonies of the fathers yet it shall be plaine that in going about to defend both he left both vndefended Io. Whitgifte Wordes of pleasure too too vsuall with T. C. but of smal weight God be thanked and of lesse truth Chap. 3. the. 29. Diuision T. C. Pag. 81. Sect. 2. 3. Let vs therfore come first to examine Ieromes reasons why one must be ouer the rest for in the testimonie of men that is onely to be regarded which is spoken either with some authoritie of the scripture or with some reason grounded of the scripture otherwise if he speak without either scripture or reason he is as asily reiected as alleaged One sayth he being chosen to be ouer the rest bringeth remedie vnto schismes how so least euery man sayth he drawing to himselfe do breake the Church in pieces But I would aske if the Church be not in as great daunger (*) Here you cōfound a monarchie and a tyrannie when all is done at the pleasure and iust of one man and when one carieth all into error as when one pulleth one piece with him an other another piece the third his part also with him And it is (a) Not so if tha one do gouerne by lawe harder to draw many into an error than one or that many should be caried away by their affections than one which is euident (b) Your similitudes hold not in water which if it be but a little it is quickly troubled and corrupted but beeing much it is not so easily But by this ecclesiasticall Monarchie all things are kept in peace Nay rather it hath bene the (c) Vntruth cause of discorde and well spring of most horrible schisme as it is to be seene in the very decretals Decret par 2. c. 9. q. 3. can Apost 33. alibi passim themselues (d) A good tor for contentio And admit it were so yet the peace which is without truth is more execrable than a thousande contentions For as by stryking of two flintes togither there commeth out fyre so it may be that sometymes by contention the truth which is hidden in a darke peace maye come to light which by a peace in naughtinesse and wickednesse being as it were buryed vnder the ground doth not appeare Io. Whitgifte Ierome being a man of such singular learning and great credite among those that be learned in a matter of Hystorie as this for hée reporteth when one Byshop was T. C. descredueth the author whom he cannot answe e. placed ouer the rest and for what cause is more to be beléeued withoute reasons than you with all your popular and friuolous arguments Let the reader againe consider whether this be your maner or no by vaine reasons to shake the credite of the authour when you cannot otherwise answere The reasons that you vse for the popular or Aristocraticall gouernment of the Church when they come among the people will be easily transferred to the state of the common weale and peraduenture bréede that misliking of ciuill gouernment that you would now haue of Ecclesiasticall to a further inconuenience and mischiefe than you and all yours will be able to remedie In the meane time you vtterly ouerthrow T. C. ouer he 〈◊〉 of the 〈◊〉 in 〈◊〉 ecclesiasti all the Quéenes authoritie in Ecclesiasticall matters giuen vnto hir by the lawes of God as hereafter shall be proued For if the state must eyther be popular or Aristocraticall then must there be no one supreme gouerner in Church matters but I wil come to your reasons First you aske whether the Churche be not in as great daunger when all is done at the pleasure and lust of one man and when one carieth all
of a mayster which is farre otherwise here (*) So is the condition of a good seruant vnder a good master muche better than the condition of an vnruly sonne vnder a wise father For the condition of many seruaunts vnder their maysters is much more free than the condition of a Minister vnder his Bishop And afterwarde he sheweth wherein that authoritie or dignitie of the Bishop ouer the Minister lyeth that is in exhorting of him in chyding of him ▪ as he doth the lay people and yet he will haue also the Minister although not with suche authoritie after a modest sort to do the same vnto the Bishop And so he concludeth that they reteyne these orders notwithstanding the Anabaptistes Nowe let the reader iudge whether Hemingius be truely or faythfully alledged or no or whether Hemingius do say that they haue in their Church Archbishoppes Primates Metropolitanes Archdeacons or whether the Byshoppes in the Churches of Denmarke are any thing like ours For I 〈◊〉 omitte that he speaketh there agaynst all pompe in the Ministerie all worldly superioritie or ghnesse bycause I * And therefore you cu 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sentences loue not to wryte out whole pages as M. Doctor doth out of other mens wrytings to helpe to make vp a booke Io. Whitgifte Hemin in that very place quoted in your margēt hath first these words Praeterea cū hic c tus c. Furthermore seing this society is ruled by the word of god there are in it two sorts of men that is to say the preachers of the worde and their hearers which do reuerence and Hemingius alloweth distinction of degrees in the ministerie loue one another as fathers and children But in the Ministers there is great diuersitie for although the authoritie of all Ministers in respect of spirituall regiment is all one for of externall discipline shall be spoken in the proper place yet there are diuerse orders and degrees of honour and dignitie and that partly by the worde of God partly by the approbation and allowance of the Church Where first he alloweth this distinction which you so greatly mislyke that all Ministers be equall touching spirituall iurisdiction that is their ministerie but not concerning externall discipline then doth he allowe degrées of dignitie and superioritie among the Clergie the which after that he hath prooued by the Scripture as namely the. 4. to the Ephesians and by the examples of Paule Hemingius acknowledgeth Patriarches in the primitiue Churche The office of Patriaches in the primatiue Church Timothie and Titus he procéedeth and goeth on forwarde and sayth Ecclesia c. The Church to whome the Lorde hath giuen power vnto edification hath ordeyned an order of ministeries for hir profite that all things might be rightly ordeyned for the reedifying of the bodie of Christ. Hereof the Primitiue Church following the tymes of the Apostles did appoynt some Patriarkes whose office it was to prouide that the Byshoppes of euerie 〈◊〉 shoulde be rightly ordeyned and elected that the Bishops shoulde doe their duetie truely and that the Clergie and people shoulde obey them in those things that perteyned to the Lorde it appoynted also Chorepiscopos that is coadiutors of Bishoppes whome we nowe call Prouostes some Pastors and Catechistes This was the ordination of the Primitiue Church Wherein he plainly declareth these degrées that I speake of for vnder the name of Patriarkes it is euident that he comprehendeth Archbyshops or Metropolitanes to haue bene in the Primitiue Church immediately after the Apostles tyme and in the purest time of the Church than the which what can be spoken more directly for my purpose whose chiefe intent is to proue the antiquitie of these names and offices After this he sheweth the abuses of these offices in the corruption of doctrine vnder the Pope and he doth not onely name Archbishops but Bishops also Curates and other and therefore the note in your margent is but a note of a speciall spyte agaynst the Archbishops In the end speaking of Bishops Pastors and Doctors he sayth thus Inter hos ministros c. Amongst these ministers also our Churche acknowledgeth degrees To take away degrees is barbarousnes and orders of dignitie for the diuersitie of giftes the greatnesse of labour and the worthinesse of their calling and iudgeth it to be barbarous to will to take this order out of the Church It iudgeth that other Ministers ought to obey their Bishops in all things that tend Ministers subiect to Bishops to the edification of the Church according to the worde of God and the profitable order of the Church It iudgeth that the Bishops haue authoritie ouer the other ministers of the Church not such as is of masters but of fathers Wherby he acknowledgeth distinction of degrées and superioritie among Ministers and the iurisdiction of Bishops ouer other Ministers After all this he concludeth with these wordes conteyned in mine answere Nowe let the reader iudge whether I haue otherwise reported of Himingius than he himselfe in that Chapter affirmeth and whether he consent vnto me that woulde haue distinction of degrées among the Ministers or to you that would haue an equalitie which he calleth an Anabaptisticall and barbarous confusion Touching your notes gathered out of him I will briefly answere first in the exposition of the. 22. of Luke he is not agaynst me for I would not haue Archbishops or Bishops c. to take from Kings their rule and dominion as doth the Pope neyther woulde I haue them to reigne ouer the people as Kings and Princes do And I doe not thinke but that the authoritie and superioritie that they haue is a ministerie for the quietnesse of the Church and the commoditie of other and yet a gouernment to for the Apostle sayth ad Hebr. 13. Obedite his qui praesunt vobis Obey them that Heb. 13. beare rule ouer you c. Hemingius in that place especially dealeth agaynst the two swordes of the Bishop of Rome and his excessiue pompe For the kinde of authoritie that the Bishop hath ouer the Ministers that it should What kind of authoritie the Bishos exercise be of a father and not of a master I agrée with him and I knowe that all you speake to the contrarie in the gouernment of this Churche is most vntrue For vndoubtedly if they haue offended in any thing it is in to much lenitie whiche is a fault euen in a father The authoritie that Hemingius giueth to the ciuill Magistrate we acknowledge with him to be moste due and I would to God you also dyd in heart and mouthe confesse the same Thus you sée that Hemingius and we agrée and that there is nothing ascribed vnto him whiche is not playnely to be founde in him Chap. 3. the. 73. Diuision Ansvvere to the Admonition Pag. 75. Lin. 11. Sect. 1. Wherefore thus I conclude with the very wordes of that worthy M. Foxe ▪ man who hathe so well deserued