worthinesse of these whom M. Allen so highly extolleth as I would not go about to diminish it if they were to be compared with vs so when they are As though vve opposed the doctors to the Apostles opposed against the manifest worde of God and the credite of the holy Apostles the ministers of the holy Ghost there is no cause that we shoulde be caried away with them That which he saith here as his Masters taught him of mortall men D. Allen knew aforehand and forewarned the Reader thereof where he said Melancton Pur. 384. as though he were no man that might erre himself saith the Doctors were men And againe to sée their absurditie in the same terme of mortall men Mortall men are compreheÌ„ded also the Apostles them selues and if they sometime séeme to separate them selues from it they meane then by the Apostles nothing but the Scriptures of the Apostles As Fulke in certaine places noted before and againe where he saith to D. Allen Ar. 59. You shal neuer bring vs to acknowledge that S. Paule is against vs in any article of our faith but we agree wholly with him Neuerthelesse I know what you meane and I will not be afrayde to vtter it For as much as immediatly after the Apostles time corruption entred into the Church you thinke that we dare not depend vpon any one mans iudgement and therein you are not deceiued for we must depend only vpon Gods word Euen so dealt the vnbeléeuers and the doubtfull and weake with the Apostles in their life time yea and with Christ him selfe and yet to winne such persons both the Apostles yea and Christ himself condescended to them accordingly If the Protestants would in like sort haue dealt with him them not to haue beléeued them in any thing without Scripture the faithfull I thinke for all that were not so straite laced but beléeued them vpon their own word not Christ onely but also his Apostles because of the spirite of truth that he sent to them and not to them onely but also to his Church after them for euer and therefore they will also no lesse at all times beléeue the said Church for the same spirite assuring them selues that the saide spirite agréeth still with him selfe whersoeuer and howsoeuer he speaketh be it in the Scriptures or be it in the Church and in the Church Primitiue or in the Church of later times and agayne in the Pastors of the Primitiue Church as the Apostles or in the Pastors of the Church afterwarde at any time in generall Councell or otherwise consenting together It is no maruayle after this generalitie to sée him now except against the Fathers in particular naming the times and the persons Ar. 60. as first the times where he saith The other writers of later yeres after Ireneus and Iustinus we are not afrayde to confesse that they haue some corruption wherby you may seeme to haue colour of defence for Inuocation of Saintes prayer for the dead Pur. â—87 and diuers Ceremonies And Although the custome of praying for the dead be an auncient error so that few of the later writers there are but they shew them selues to be infected therewith yet they had no ground out of the Scriptures to warrant their doing Pur. 262. Againe But of memories of the dead and prayers for the dead also we wil not striue but that they were vsed before the times of Cyprian Ambrose but without warrant of Gods word or authoritie of Scriptures but such as is pitifully wrested and drawen vnto them Againe Pur. 30. But it sufficeth you that your forefathers more then a thousand yeres ago called the place of sufferaÌ„ce Purgatory But I pray you what is it called in the Scripture either of the old Testament or the new Diuers errors be older then a 1000. yeres but age can neuer make falshood to be truth and therfore I weigh not your * It is pride to follovv the fathers and humilitie to coÌ„demn them proud brags worth a straw Againe And this was a great corruption of those ancient times that they did not alwayes weigh what was most agreable to the word of God but if the Gentiles or Heretikes had any thing Pur. 419. and the rest as aboue in the third Chapter And againe Supra pag. 9. Those of the auncient Fathers that agreed with you in any part of your assertion notwithstanding many excellent giftes that they had Pur. 436. dissented therein from manifest truth of the Scriptures And so by name likewise he saith of certayne as for example Damascene your doctor should first haue reproued that perswasion by Scripture Againe Pur. 412. Pur. 60. The supposall of S. Augustine is sette downe which because it is but the authoritie of a man it is not of sufficient weight to beare downe the testimonie of Gods word Againe Pur. 395. And euen the authoritie of Athanasius without the word of God is the authoritie of man We count not all his writings for Canonicall Scriptures but we iudge them by the Canonicall Scriptures And againe Pur. 255.256 Gregorie Nissene and Athanasius the Great There is no cause why we should beleue either of them both in an article of faith without the authoritie of the word of God The second part Beeing told that the question betwene vs is not as he maketh it of the Scriptures authoritie but of the meaning howe there likewise against all the Expositors he maketh the same exception of Only Scripture requiring also Scripture to be expounded by Scripture Now after all this froth of words let vs sée him come once to the poynt report him self the substance of our matter These be his owne words But the controuersie is not M. Allen fayth of the authoritie of the Scriptures in this matter Pur. 363 but of the true meaning of them which it is more like that they the Doctors being such men then we so farre inferior to them should know And what saith he therevnto I answere saith he and yet not one worde there to the question Else where he saith therevnto as I will report anone his words that also the meaning of the Scriptures must be searched out of the Scriptures onely Well syr but whencesoeuer and wheresoeuer it must be searched who is more like to finde it the Doctors or you and so neither that which you saye in other places answereth the question But in this place reade it who list your answere is quite cleane froÌ„ the questioÌ„ which was Whether be more like to know the true meaning of the Scriptures the Doctors or you And yet you pype vp the triumph there and say Thus haue these Heretikes no ground of their heresie but shift from the word of Scripture to Tradition from Tradition to the meaning of Scripture from the plaine meaning of Scripture to the opinions of men Yea and he counteth him selfe and his companies happie for such
worde of trueth desiring the spirite of trueth that you may vnderstande and beleeue the trueth and so without doubt you shall come to the knowledge of the trueth and of the Churche of God whiche is the pillar of truth So it is then good syr In this Seminarie of English diuines vnder the gouernement of D. Allen mainteined by his holines for the saluation of our countrey as he mainteineth the like for Germanie also for Bohemia and Students of Polonia The Popes Seminarie for England Suetia Slauonia Hungaria c. yea for the Gréekes likewise yea also for the Hebrues we haue such exercise in the scriptures that we reade ouer the old Testament in euery thrée yeres twelue times one of which times hath ioyned with it an examinatiō by conferēce from Chapter to Chapter and from verse to verse The new Testament we reade ouer in the same thrée yeres sixtéene times with a treble examinatiō of the same sort And not cōtent with those examinations we afterwards write moreouer in paper bookes lay together al the sentences that belong to the controuersies of this time euery one in his place And without all vanitie to speake one word of my selfe after many yeres studie afore after the maner of Englād as many of your owne side can beare me witnesse I haue since then folowed this foresaid trade nine yeres This is partly our diligence in the scriptures besides much other exercise both in the same and in all the studie of diuinitie What more diligence would you haue vs vse this is the principall and as you make it all in all All other helpes you counte but subordinate and seruing vnto this And yet in them also I dare saye if you knewe vs you woulde allowe vs for sufficient at the leaste You maye by the trace of God ere it be long haue some taste of vs therein when one of vs shall set forth a booke to shew to the world that the Hebrew and Gréeke textes in nothing make for you against vs and in very many things make for vs against you much more plainly then our vulgar Latine text Now then how much more certaine of the trueth be we then you also by your owne rule because your diligence herein is nothing comparable but specially because together with this rule we vse the expositiōs that you renounce of the auncient Fathers who for such conference of places and all other studie of the Scriptures were pearlesse ¶ The third part What he meaneth by his Onely Scripture and that thereby he excepteth also against Scripture it selfe Thus haue we heard this Protestant call for expresse Scripture in all things yea also in the expounding of Scripture Now that he séeme not too straight and rigorous in his exception he will tell vs what he meaneth therby as it were to geue vs more scope but in déed as we shall heare soone after to shut vs straighter vp and to except also against Scripture it selfe vnlesse it be so plaine and euident for vs that by no subteltie of theirs they may auoide it Concerning the former thus he saith When we require expresse Scripture for euery controuersie we doe not require that euery thing should be named in Scripture but necessarily concluded out of the true meaning of the Scriptures and purpose of the holy Ghost in them Then on the other side he almost repenteth himselfe againe for graunting so much and saieth And yet we may say Pur. 438. it is a great preiudice against your Purgatorie and prayer that it is not so much as once named in the Scriptures Againe If the holy Ghost had euer allowed Prayer for the deade he would once at the least haue vttered the same plainely in holy Canonicall Scriptures Pur. 452. Canonicall he saith to except against the very meaning of it also which he séeth in the bookes of the Machabées rather shall that Canonicall Scripture not be Canonicall for so plainely naming that which the eares of the Protestantes can not abide Well in the other Canonicall Scriptures the name is not and that is a great preiudice against vs. But he will be fauourable vnto vs a great preiudice shal not make him geue iudgement against vs if at least The thing it selfe be taught or can be proued by the Scriptures Yet againe he remembreth him selfe Pur. 452. that D. Allen hath alleaged many Scriptures for that thing and the old Fathers likewise before him and therefore to tye vs yet straighter with another exception he said here a little afore But we require that euery thing be necessarily concluded out of the true meaning of the Scriptures And againe he saith speaking of D. Allen See the confidence of the man he is sure Pur. 364. that if we were examined of our conscience what tryall of this doubt we would wish there is none we could name but his cause might well abide it Wherevnto he answereth saying Why M. Allen we haue testified of our conscience long agoe that the onely authoritie of Gods word written shall satisfie vs as well in this as in all other matters If you were able we should haue heard before this time some sentence of Scripture to maintaine prayer and sacrifice for the dead Why in the third Chapter here you confessed that you haue heard of him diuerse sentences and not of him alone Supra pag. 19. but also of the Fathers of the true Churche Yea but now saieth he I adde my exception and say therfore some sentence not standing vpon voluntarie collection but either in plaine wordes or necessarie conclusion For there is nothing that we are bound to know nothing that we are bound to doe but either in expresse wordes or in necessarie collection which is as good as expresse wordes it is set forth in the holy Scriptures Againe Pur. 452. All truth may be proued by Scripture either in plaine wordes or by necessarie conclusion which is all one And againe Pur. 189. There is * For example your ovvne heresie no heresie so absurd which Satā putteth into the head of wicked men but it may finde some sound of words in so many Bookes of the holy scriptures that by peruerse wittes may be wrested vnto it But the doctrine of Gods trueth and all articles of our beliefe are plainely taught in the Scripture either by manifest wordes or by necessary conclusion and argument which by no subtiltie of Satan or his instrumentes may be auoided or deluded And this is the difference betweene heresie and truth when they both appeale to the authoritie of Scripture Which difference as it may be found in al heresies so in none more notably then in this error of Purgatory Consider what texts of holy Scripture are alleaged * against it rather for it you shall see they can not bring one out of which any necessary argument may be framed to proue their cause or which hath not by learned interpretors of the olde time
bene otherwise expounded then of their cause Pur. 176. Yea and more then that The worde of God doth neither expresly nor by any probable collection allow it but manifestly condemne it Pur. 185. Againe He could not with any semely colour establish purgatorie by the authoritie of the Scripture the onely testimonie of Gods word and will reueiled and confirmed by his holy Spirite The Machabées to be euen so confirmed as well as the other bookes he can neuer auoyde and in effect he graunteth as I shall note in the eleuenth Chapter amongst his contradictions Which is sufficient I trow to make at the least a séemely colour and a probable collection but in déede also a conclusion so necessary that he can neuer answere it but by shaking the authoritie of all the Canonicall Scriptures in derogating from their confirmation which yet him selfe doth attribute to the holy Spirite The fourth part What great promises he maketh to bring most euident Scripture against vs and also by Scripture to proue his sence of the Scripture Triumphing also before the victorie saying that we dare not be tried by Scripture but reiect the Scriptures Wherevpon a fourefold offer is made vnto him Now that we haue séene howe precise he is with vs to admit 1 no euidence that we alleage but Scripture onely both in all controuersies and also in the exposition of Scripture and againe 2 no Scripture which maketh so playnly with vs that he can not auoyde it but by denying it to be Canonical though he graūt it to haue the confirmation of the same true Church which moueth him as the holy Ghost to receiue the other Scriptures for Canonicall and againe 3 no Scripture that he confesseth to be Canonicall vnlesse it make so expresly so playnly so manifestly and so necessarily with vs that it can not by any suttletie be auoyded It were to be séene nowe on the other side what Scriptures he alleageth against vs whether he obserue him selfe the law that he so rigorously prescribeth to vs whether his Scriptures be so playne so manifest so euident that by no sutteltie they can be auoyded But that we shall sée in the next Chapter no nede of sutteltie I assure you to auoyde or delude them so friuolous are his allegations that with al facilitie and truth we shall answere them Here in the meane time in the ende of this Chapter I will onely lay forth his great promises aforehande and so come orderly to the matter And to omit if he should haue to do with all the old and newe heresies what manifest necessary confutations he would frame against them all and euery one out of the Scriptures alone hauing fréely afore them renounced al other probations according to his former sayings here that all truth and all articles of our beliefe are playnly taught in the Scripture and may be so proued by Scripture that there is nothing that we are bound to know nothing that we are bound to do but it is so set forth in the scriptures His great promises I will charge him no more but with his promise that he maketh of so confuting vs by playne Scriptures notwithstanding that all other euidences make for vs in such sort as he hath already confessed Thus he saith Pur. 187. And that which I haue to saye in confutation of your heresie shall be no worse then the very word of God it selfe which is better then the consent of all the world against it And againe Pur. 30. I am one of the least of Gods Ministers yet by his grace and authoritie of his holy word I shal be able to ouerthrow both this and all other Babilonicall bulwarks that are cast vp by Satan all his instruments for the defence of Popish heresie against the truth of God And neither the myst of mens inuētions which you cal the light of Apostolike tradition shall be able to darken the truth of the Gospell nor the errors of mortall men which you terme the force of Gods trueth shall beare downe the authoritie of Gods holy spirite Againe Pur. 12. We be able to shew manifest euidence that our aduersaries doctrine is cleane contrarie to the Scriptures of God Againe Ar. 3. We affirme that the Apostles taught none other faith in stead of true Christianitie but that which we hold as we are ready to proue by the word of God Againe I can proue by S. Paules writings Ar. 59. that in all articles of faith he taught the same which we beleeue And for triall of this because it would require a whole volume if I should proue euery perticular article wherein we dissent from you Papistes If you will name an article in the next Chapter your selfe shall name ynowe Yet if you will let it be this that Antichrist is not one certaine person and that the Churches fléeing into the wildernesse at his comming is to become inuisible to the world and that the beginning of that comming and fleing should be so soone after Christes passion the continuaunce so many ages the end so long before Christes second cōming wherein we agree not with S. Paule If I be not able to proue that we agree with him in the meaning thereof I will reuoke that article and agree with you therein Yea and also to proue his owne meaning and to disproue our meaning when we both alleage Scriptures he will séeke as he required of vs to nothing likewise but Scripture it selfe For the meaning of the worde he saith you should beleeue vs rather then the Papistes because our groundes and proues are better then theirs or els we require not to be beleeued better then they And there againe If you bring out a false sense we beleeue you not because we knowe it to be false and are able to proue by the word of God that it is contrarie to the meaning of the holy Ghost His triumphing in lying These are his worthie promises Of which he hath béen so liberall belike because he knewe that we dare not once appeare when Scriptures be alleaged by the Protestantes For such are his wordes Pur. 380. We can shewe no cause in the world you say why wee neede in any one point of controuersie depart from your Church Yet M. Allen this one cause shall serue for all because your Church is departed from the truth of Gods word and dare not abide the tryall thereof but will sitte like a proude dame in a Chaire Ar. 28. and controll the Scriptures Againe The Popish Church can by no reason chalenge Apostles Euangelistes and Prophets seeing she refuseth to be tried by their doctrine vttered in their writinges Againe The spouse of Christ heareth the voice of Christ Ar. 99.6 and is ruled thereby But the Romish Church will in no wise be ruled Onely by the voyce of Christ therefore she is not the Spouse of Christ Where by his foysting in of the worde Onely in the Minor
you alleage there is no mention at all of Scripture but onely of preaching and teaching Likewise S. Hillarius most expresly auoucheth euery where the authoritie of the Nicene Councell against the Arrians and yet you pretend that he would haue heresies against the Trinitie Ar. 11. Hilar. li. 4. de Trin. to be confuted not by mens iudgement but by Gods word You marke well what he doeth in that place How heresies must be confuted is not his purpose but to answere the Scriptures that the Heretikes abused and misconstrued which he there had recited at large therefore he saith Cessent propriae hominum opiniones neque se vltra diuinam constitutionem humana iudicia extendant Let mens proper opinions cease neither let the iudgementes or fancies of men stretche them selues beyonde Gods limite Therefore against these prophane and impious institutions or Catechismes of God let vs followe the selfe-same authorities of Gods sayinges which they alleage in their owne false sense restoring euery one of them to his true meaning Which there consequently he doth A goodly testimonie for your purpose The saying of S. Basill is in euery mans mouth Basi de spi Sanc. ca. 27 that the Doctrines preached in the Church we haue them partely by writing partely by the Apostles Tradition without writinge And if we go about to reiect suche vnwritten customes we shall vnawares condemne the Gospell also Imo ipsam fidei predicationem ad nudum nomen contrahemus yea wee shall bring the verye preaching of our faith to a bare name And you your selfe doe note it as a greate matter that by his confession here Pur. 380. the wordes of Inuocation when the Blessed Sacrament is shewed are not taughte by the Scripture no more then many other ceremonies that he rehearseth in the same place And yet must he also beare you witnesse against himselfe for Only Scripture Ar. 11. Basi de vera side in prooem Moraliū Well what saith he In his treatise of faith We know that we must now and alwayes auoyde euery worde and opinion that is differing from the doctrine of our Lord. I say the same But it is not all one to be differing from our Lords doctrine and not to be expressed in Scripture In so muche that he alloweth wel of those words in speaking of the Trinitie Quae apud Sanctos viros in vsu fuisse reperirentur Which had bene vsed of the holy fathers although they were not in Scripture Basi in Regulis breu Interrog 1. Two sayings more of his you alleage In his short definitions to the first interrogation Whether it be lawfull or profitable for a man to permit vnto him selfe to do or say any thing which he thinketh to be good without testimonie of the holy Scriptures He answereth For as much as our Sauiour Christ saith that the Holy ghost shall not speake of him selfe what madnes is it that any man should presume to beleue any thing without the authoritie of Gods word If you saw the place your malice passeth The words are these Quis esse tanta vesania c. Who can be so madde that he dare so much as to thinke any thing of himselfe And it followeth But because of those things and words that are in vse amongst vs some are playnly taught in the holy Scripture some are omitted Concerning them that are written they must precisely be so obserued and concerning them that are omitted we haue this rule To be subiect to other men for Gods commaundement renouncing quite our owne willes Which he saith because he writeth there to Monkes who vow obedience to their Superiours Basil Mor. Reg. 26. c. 1. Agayne In his Morals Dist 26. Euery word or deede must be confirmed by the testimonie of holy Scripture for the perswasion of good men and the confusion of wicked men He there admonisheth his Monkes béeing studentes of Diuinitie to be so perfect in the Scriptures that they may haue a text ready at euery néede so as Christ had to repel the diuels temptation Mat. 4. and Peter to answere the Iewes scoffe Act. 2. And we desire the same in so much as when you bid vs cast all away that is not written we haue this text ready where S. Paul biddeth vs the contrarie To hold the Traditions which we haue learned whether it be by his Scripture or by his word of mouth 2. Thes 2. Last of all we haue to sée what you alleage likewise out of S. Augustine for your onely Scripture Augustine For you play with his nose also as you haue done with his fellowes the foresaid Doctors confessing that he is for vnwritten Traditions and suche other authorities as we stand vpon and yet alleaging him for Onely Scripture Your confession I haue reported at large in the seuenth chapter as for example where you say Augustine blindly defendeth in his booke De cura pro mortuis agenda Pur. 349. and else where the cōmon error of his time of prayer for the dead which by holy Scripture he was not able to mainteine contrarie to his owne rule of only Scripture in beating downe the Schisme of the Donatistes and the heresie of the Pelagians Well then how do you shew out of Augustine against Augustine him selfe that this was his rule You make your shew in thrée partes Ar. 12. Pur. 383.405.368.451 First you quote onely without recitall of any words eleuen or twelue places out of him In which he preferreth the authoritie of the Canonicall Scripture before all writings of Catholike Doctors of Bishops of Councels before all customes and traditions So you gather of those places But that is not the question Which is to be preferred but this Whether nothing but Scripture be of authoritie And touching the preferment also recite the wordes when you will and it will appeare playnly that he neither preferreth the Scripture otherwise then we do Your second part is about this one question Ar. 12. Who haue the true Church Of whiche question you saye that S. Augustine would haue the Church fought only in the Scriptures Reade my first Demaund and you shall sée what S. Augustine would haue in that question and that I would haue the same to wit that you answere the Scriptures that he alleageth for his Church and for ours together and that you bring one text for the visible Churches perishing after a time or vanishing out of sight and one text that one Luther or one Caluine should after so many hundred yeres restore it againe This is the summe of al. In dede he is content in that question to set aside all other authorities so to draw the Donatists who drew backe al that they could standing vpon other things impertinent to try it by the Scriptures But that nothing els is good authoritie in that question that he neuer saith You allenge him De 〈◊〉 Ecclesia cap. 2. where he saith and the like cap. 3.5.6 The question betwene vs and
But that is so manifest to be spoken of matters of externall comelines and not of doctrine of the Sacrament as Prayers and Sacrifices that no man which vnderstandeth what diatazesthai doth signifie can doubt or make any question of it Be it so as you say But what haue you forgotten the thing wherof you speake Is it not of that Solemne prayer for the dead in the celebration of the Sacrifice That prayer we say is diatazis one of S. Paules ordinations What vnproper speach is here specially S. Augustine saying agayne in another place Aug◠ver ◠Ser. 3 Hoc enim a patribus traditum vniuersa obseruat Ecclesia This being a tradition of the Fathers that is the Apostles the whole Church obserueth and therefore it is such a thing as nulla morum diuersitate variatur when they which are departed in the cōmunion or vnitie of the body and bloud of Christ be in their place mentioned at the same Sacrifice To pray for them and to mention that for them also it is offred Thus you haue a piece of the cause why the Scriptures conteined not the whole order of celebration of the Sacramēts to wit for breuities sake And what doth that or any other cause let other writers to make mention of such things when Aerius the heretike compelled them or any other iust occasion was ministred You imagine and that deceiueth you as though the Apostles purposed to put all in writing Which if they had neither so many of them That al is not vvritten nor one of them so often would haue mentioned one thing But as the purpose of the holy Ghost in the bookes of the Olde Testament was principally to foreshew manifoldly Christ and his Church so in the bookes of the New Testament as in the gospels Ioan. 19. Luk. 24. to shew Christ euen to Consummatum est and Impleri omnia quae scripta sunt de me And in the Actes of the Apostles to shew Christes Church according to the old predictions beginning amongst the Iewes and increasing to the Gentiles yea and remouing with S. Paule from Hierusalem the head of the Iewes worthily reprobated and setting in Rome the head of the Gentiles by mercy elected And all this but as it were the first birth of the Church for Consummatum est could not be tolde by way of a Storie before the ende of the world though foretold it is the whole course I say of the Church euen to the glorious consummation thereof in the Apocalipse The other Bookes were written specially agaynst the perfidious Iewes and other false Masters of that time As likewise in euery age afterward agaynst the seuerall heresies of eche age we haue the Ecclesiasticall I say not Canonicall writers and Councels And therfore vnlesse any thing belonging to ech time be omitted in the writings of ech time no maruaile at all for the omission of other things which there was then no suche occasion to expresse This I should haue reserued to an other place but that this insolent Poser might not abide any delay Pur. 264. Now then to go forward with him I know saith he the Papists will answer that Tradition is of as good credit as the Scripture 1. Thes 2. 2. Thes 2. 1. Cor. 11. and is the word of God vnwritten as well as the Scripture is the word of God written And good reason for the Scripture it selfe so teacheth vs. But why then saith he do they not obserue all things that Tertullian in the same place affirmeth to be Tradition This Why I haue answered in the sixt Chapter Supra ◠par 1. d◠Pur. 36 Moreouer he saith Their writings are to vs the onely true testimonie of their tradition So were they not to the Thessalonians For they had of S. Paule Traditiones per sermonē per epistolam Pur. 40 Traditions partly by word of mouth partly by writing Yea he saith further When the Apostolike writing can not be shewed it is but the poynt of an Heretike to boast of Apostolike tradition So he saith to D. Allen. But to the old Fathers I hope he will be somewhat better and content to take only his exception against them as where he saith Pur. 39. ◠If Tertullian had no ground of his saying when he affirmed that Oblations for the dead came from the Apostles what ground can Augustine haue which was 200. yeres further from the Apostles time then he Againe Pur. 39 Chrisostome can no more proue that Prayer for the dead came from the Apostles then Tertullian can proue that oblation for the dead came from them Againe But where he saith Pur. 30 304. It was decreed by the Apostles that in the celebration of the holy mysteries a remembrance should be made of them that are departed He must pardon vs of crediting because he can not shew it out of the Acts and writings of the Apostles We must not beleue Chrysostome without Scripture affirming that it was ordeined so by the Apostles Howbeit sometime he is bolder yet with the Fathers for auouching this Tradition He dare not call them heretikes for it but yet he dareth to charge them with doutfulnes contradiction about it For of Chrysostome he saith Pur. 39 Chryso◠Ep. ad ◠Hom. 3 Lo M. Allen your owne Doctor confesseth it is but small helpe that can be procured by praiers almes or remēbrance of thē at the celebration of the holy Mysteries You will say that soone after he saith The Apostles that instituted such memory knew that much cōmoditie came to the dead Then see how soone he forgetteth himself when he followeth not the rule of holy scripture And againe Ar. 39. Yet did not praying for the dead so preuayle in the Primitiue Church that they durst define what profite the soules receiued thereby for Chrysostome saith Let vs procure them some helpe small helpe truly but yet let vs helpe them Likewise Augustine Aug. ◠fes lib. cap. 13. where he prayeth for his father and mother declareth how vncertayne he was of the matter One while he feareth the daunger of euery soule that dyeth in Adam An other while he beleeueth that they neede not his prayer yet he desireth God to accept the same and moue other men to remember them in their prayers Thus it is necessarie that they wander which leane vnto mens traditions without the word of God And in the same place S. Augustine in his booke De cura pro mortuis agenda wearieth him selfe and in the end can define nothing in certayne how the Saintes in heauen should heare the prayers of men on earth Such doubtfulnes they fall into that leaue the worde of God leane to traditions Although he were willing to mainteine Inuocation of Saints Pur. 317. yet he hath nothing of certentie out of the worde of God eyther to perswade his owne conscience or to satisfie them that moued the doubtes vnto him For S. Augustine De
as before And agayne Neither do we require you to beleeue any one companie of men Ar. 62. more then another but to beleeue the truth before falshood which you must search in the word of truth It was belike for this much other such Apocriphall stuffe that your booke was kept in so long and in the end also faine to come forth without priuiledge Yea he is so peremptorie in his exception Fuâ—e vvil not beleeue the Apostles nor the Angels vvithout Scripture the most absurdly he attributeth to the Apostles themselues without scripture no more then to Iackstraw and consequently with scripture as much to Iackstraw as to the Apostles For thus he saith speaking of D. Allen He speaketh it because he beleeueth it Pur. 24.4 2. Cor. 4. He would faine counterfeit his speach like the Apostle but the ground of his beliefe is not as the Apostles was the word of God but the practise of meÌ„ which though they were neuer so good yet they were suche as might deceiue and be deceiued Againe Pur. 449. Gal. 1. where he abuseth that which S. Paule speaketh to the Galathians of preaching their receiuing of it turneth it as spoken of onely Scripture It vexeth you at the very hart saith he that we require the authoritie of the holy Scriptures to confirme your doctrine hauing a plaine coÌ„maundement out of the word of God that if any man teache otherwise then the word of God alloweth he is to be accursed As though S. Paul there commaunded to accurse him self and al the Apostles the vniuersall Church of Christ if they confirmed not all their doctrine with expresse Scriptures in such maner as you here require No Syr nothing so Onely he accurseth them which should preach contrarie to that he had preached the Galathians had receiued which was as you see traditioÌ„ by mouth in which maner he taught them other Churches all Christian Religion therein as one principall point the Canon of the scriptures both old new if at the leastwise any Bookes of the newe as then were written which could not be many before the Epistle to the Galathians being as by conference of times it may well be proued the first of all S. Paules Epistles And so much of the Churches authoritie in her Iudgements and Practise namely of her diuine Seruice Whervnto I ioyne as the principalles in the authoritie first the Councells and secondly the Popes For to theÌ„ likewise he maketh his exceptioÌ„ Pur. 430. Councels Dem. 27. saying Wherfore if any CouÌ„cell decree according to the Scriptures as the CouÌ„cel of the Apostles did Act. 15. the CouÌ„cel of Nice with diuers other we receiue them with all humilitie as the oracles of God But if any Councell decree contrarie to the authoritie of the Scriptures as many did without all presumption or pride we may iustly reiect them Pur. 194. See Apostolike Dem. 28. Then of the other Yet is not all that Gregorie writ of equall authoritie with the word of God without authoritie whereof we beleeue not an Angel from heauen as I haue often shewed much lesse a Bishop of Rome And not onely against eche Pope seuerally but also against their whole line and entire Succession he excepteth in like maner saying Succession Dem. 43. Aâ— 28. Although we could rehearse in order as many Successions in our Church as the Papistes boast of in theirs yet were that nothing to proue it to be the Church of Christ which must be tried onely by the Scriptures And a little after We require at the Papistes handes that they shew them selues to hold the Church not by Succession of Bishops or rehearsing of their names but onely by the Scriptures For although wee did rehearse innumerable names of Bishops in orderly Succession on our side wee would not require men to beleeue vs but onely because wee proue the doctrine of our Churche by the authoritie of the Scriptures In déede we must acknowledge Fulke vvhat a frankeling that you deale very frankely with vs to renounce so fréely such a goodly euidence because you can not make so much as any shew thereof For otherwise when you haue any collour of any thing at all what mountybanke pedler is so facing so boasting so vaunting as you and your fellowes iiij Against the Fathers Fathers Dem. 26. Now after all this I will open his like excepting against the Fathers both in generall and also expressing diuerse of their names although it hath bene opened in part alreadie by other occasions And touching the first true it is that he often braggeth much of the Fathers which liued in the first a Ar. 39. Pu. 30.177 435.370.371 two hundred or b Pur. 186.247.304.331.357.364.382 one hundred yeares chalenging vs to proue our doctrine out of them and not out of the later Fathers after them euen with as much reason as he commonly chalengeth vs to proue all out of the scriptures vtterly without all ground but méere voluntarily * Fulkes tvvo Onelies the one as the other which ensample therefore is much to be noted But here notwithstanding I shall declare howe he excepteth smothly and simply against all the Fathers against all in general and expresly also saying were they neuer so auncient Wherin how well he agréeth with him selfe I deferre to the eleuenth Chapter And in effect he hath already so done in calling so often afore for Onely Scripture But yet to shew it more manifestly and as it were the very face it selfe thus he saith Pur. 205. Whatsoeuer he was or howe long soeuer it be since he wrote because it hath not authoritie in the word of God I weigh it as the wordes of a man whose credit in diuine matters is nothing without the word of God Againe Pur. 202. When all authoritie out of Gods word faileth you wherby you should proue that the soules departed receiue benefite by the merites of the liuing you flye to the authoritie of men But mans authoritie is to weake to carie away so weightie a matter Away with mens writings shew me but one Scripture to proue it Againe If for these and an hundred suche Pur. 22. you can shew no better warrant then the tearmes of your fathers the practise of your elders or the authoritie of mortall men the curse of God by Esay must nedes be turned ouer vnto you Againe Pur. 58. Your reasons either be manifest wrestings of the holy Scripture or else are buylded vpon the authoritie of mortall men Againe Pur. 386. We neede no shift M. Allen for the authoritie of the Doctors whom we neuer allow for Canonicall Scriptures and therefore we may boldly say Whatsoeuer we find in theÌ„ agreable to the Scriptures he meaneth expressed in the Scriptures we receiue it with their prayse and whatsoeuer is disagreable to the Scriptures we refuse with their leaue Againe Pur. 363. Now touching the credite and
and sure for their persons and not one of them but he was thankes be to God throughly satisfied by our conference and namely by séeing and hearing our foresaid dayly reading and examination of the Scriptures Which béeing by D. Allen our President his order vsed amongst vs who can doubt but he exhorteth men to reade the Scriptures them specially that vnderstande Latin much more thē S. Bedes historie And namely the Acts of the Apostles what booke do I his scholler more often vse in my Motiues and Demaundes then that And touching a Catholike trāslation of the Scriptures you shew your selfe to know litle God wotteth what is D. Allens desire and minde therein But all men may assure them selues that any thing lacketh therevnto rather then good will and feruent zeale specially because we sée it translated already by Catholikes into al other languages almost and because we know sundry cōmodities that might ensue thereof namely because we lament to see so many soules to dye in the most holsome waters beeing turned into deadly bitternes by your Starre Absinthin Apoc. 8. your blindnes withall being suche that leauing both the authenticall Gréeke of the Septuaginta which the Apostles and Primitiue Church did vse and also the authenticall Latin which the Church hath vsed so many hundred yeres in some part euen from the beginning almost you haue serued our countrey with the olde Testament of the late obstinate Iewes vowelling diuiding and reading it being of it selfe but one verse in the whole Psalter and ech other particular booke onely consonantes and to be read according to the tradition of the faithfull which tradition we know by our authenticall translations and not of the incredulous and perfidious No no whensoeuer we should make if we were in case and place a Catholike translation and send the copies in they should be in no lesse daunger of your searchers and fyres then our other bookes haue bene and are euery day more and more but yet that daunger should not stay vs if nothing els did knowing that such a translation will confound you ten thousande times more then all the other bookes haue done Last of all if none of my former requestes can finde place with you at the least wise you shal haue here in the Chapter folowing an answere to all your Scriptures hither vnto alleaged in both your bookes to chaw vpon for a while And then tell your Reader when as you haue here renounced all other euidences so he shall sée that you are no lesse destitute of Scripture also tell him then I say blaming D. Allen Pur. 364. and saying And yet he wondreth that we are so blinde that we can not see the cleare light of truth And againe in the ende of your booke Pur. 458. In Gods name let the Readers way indifferently and as they see this poynt of the dead handled so let them iudge of the rest The trueth is vpholden by euident testimonie of Scripture the error by custome practise and iudgement of men The truth seeketh vnderstanding of the Scriptures of the spirite of God in the Scriptures error at the mouthes of mortall men Now thē to these euident Scriptures in the name of God and to your diuine vnderstanding of them ¶ The eyght Chapter To shew his vanitie in his foresaide rigorous exacting of playne Scripture and great promises to bring playne Scripture conferring place with place so euidently All the Scriptures that he alleageth are examined and answered AL the Scriptures that he alleageth against vs throughout his two bookes I do sort and distribute into foure partes The first concerning the question of onely Scripture the second concerning the question of the Church the third concerning the question of Purgatorie the fourth concerning al other questions that he mentioneth The first part Concerning the question of Onely Scripture And as touching the first In the last Chapter we saw how to make exception against all our other euidēces he euermore said that in all matters Onely euident Scripture must be brought and heard confessing those other euidences to be so euident for vs that they can not otherwise be auoyded Now then this béeing his onely refuge how many and how euident Scriptures hath he alleaged for it as you thinke Surely in all his first booke to D. Allens Articles they being altogether our foresaid Euidences he alleageth but one place onely and not many mo neither in his other booke of Purgatorie And what maner of place also thinke you that it is specially considering howe muche he craketh of it as where he saith Thus I haue declared Ar. 11.15 c. that the true Church of Christ hath conuicted all Heretikes onely by the Scripture Agayne it hath bene already proued sufficiently Ar. 16. that the true Catholike Church which is ledde only by the worde of God the onely weapon by which heresies are cut downe counting it to be sufficient for that purpose hath ouerthrowen heresies of all sortes And againe Doctrine is to be sought out and tried onely by the Scriptures Ar. 82. as we haue declared at large in the answere to the fourth Article first Demaunde And once againe Ar. 86. As for doubtes that arise by difficultie of Scripture or cōtention of heresie they must be resolued and determined as it is abundauntly declared before onely by the Scriptures With that place of Scripture he alleaged certayne Fathers as Hilarius Basilius Chrysostome Sainct Augustine Leo the first and the Councell of Constantinople the sixte To whom I must aunswere in the next Chapter Infra pag. But he graunteth pardie that the Fathers authoritie is no warrant to him so to crake as another where also expresly he saith Pur. 383. It is not for confirmation of the trueth that we alleadge the authoritie of the Doctors and olde Councels Then must all these crakes be onely in respect of the Scripture that you there alleaged Let vs therefore nowe heare that Scripture So did Paule ouercome the Iewes Act. 18. that is to say Ar. 11. only by the Scripture That he often disputed against the Iewes prouing Iesus to be Christ I there finde but that his argumentes were none but Scriptures I finde not But reade you Actes .13 and you shall finde that he vsed also other argumentes agaynst them to witte the testimonie of certayne men as of S. Iohn Baptist and of his owne Disciples that sawe him many dayes together after his resurrection qui vsque nunc sunt testes eius ad plebem Who to this day are witnesses for him to the people Reade likewise Act. 4. for the argument of Miracles specially where it is sayde Hominem quoque videntes stantem cum eis qui curatus fierat nihil poterant contradicere Seeing the man also standing with Peter and Iohn whom they had healed the Gouernours of the Iewes were quite put to silence And therefore also if S. Paule had in your place ouercome them
to wit by considering whether he agrée with them that are of God with them that receiued and kéepe the vnction or spirite of truth which was sent to the Church for euer with them that depart not after any Seducers but continue in that which they heard in the beginning as the Romanes do most manifestly no Antichrist nor Heretike being able to name the time the noueltie the Seducer that euer they went after so as Wittenberge Geneua England and all other that we charge with it haue done most notoriously This is the effect in generall of S. Iohns Epistles Agayne you alleage and say The word of the Lorde is a light vnto our steppes and a lanterne vnto our féete Pur. 285.364 Psal 118.18 Therfore we will not walke in the darknes of mens traditions Item The faithful testimonie of Gods word onely giueth true light vnto the eyes as the Prophet saith And by and by after you call it The onely authoritie of Gods word written But the Prophet neither hath the word onely neither saith that Gods word is not but in writing but rather most euidently by Gods worde there he meaneth the preaching of his Apostles Rom. 10. S. Paule also him selfe referring that verse of the same Psalme vnto them accordingly Into all the earth their sound is gone forth and their words to the ends of the world And so you may see the light of Gods word to be not only in writing but also in tradition by mouth Pur. 210. Last of all you alleage and say against Iudas Machabeus In the Law not so much as one pinne of the Tabernacle was omitted lest any thing might be left to the will of man to deuise in the worship of God Deut. 12. ver 8. 32. You shall not do saith the Lord what séemeth good in your owne eyes but that which I commaunde you that only shal you do without adding any thing to it or taking away any thing from it You are very dayntie of your quotations in maner none at all in your margin because you alleage so fewe places and commonly omitted in your texte also because you alleage your places without booke This is my coniecture let the Reader loke in the places as I doe quote them because for breuitie sake I omitte many thinges that were worth the noting Wel in this place Moises saith not That only which I do write but That only which I commaund you And so our Sauiour said long after to the Iewes accordingly Mat. 23. The Scribes and Pharises sit in Moises chaire and therefore whatsoeuer they commaund you obserue it and doe it As for the Pinnes of the Tabernacle they are so mentioned for other causes as you may sée in the Doctors Commentaries and not for the cause that you imagin that is to leaue nothing to any man afterwarde in the worship of God for how say you then by Dauid and Salamon who chaunged not only a pinne yea all the pinnes but also that whole Tabernacle building in stéed of it a Temple in Hierusalem and there ordeining musicall instrumentes and many other things for the worship of God that the law did not mention You alwayes erre because you do not distinguish betwene men that haue onely their owne humane spirite and men that haue the spirite of God as Moyses the Prophets the Apostles and the Catholike Church And so hauing answered al your places I would your Vnlearned Brother to know of it him that euery yere sendeth out the Newyeres giftes and what els I know not and to tell me now why I might not in my last Motiue call this your Castle of Onely Scripture Onely Scripture Your weake and false Castle Weake because you haue no defence at all for it neither of Srripture as I haue here declared neither of Doctor as in the nexte chapter I will declare False because not so much as one worde of Scripture from the beginning of Genesis to the ende of the Apocalipse maketh for you in any thing nor against vs in any thing as in this Chapter I doe ynough to persuade therein any reasonable man and therefore it is but a false sleight of you Heretikes and a mere deception of the simple when you be ouerthrowen by Apostolike traditions by auncient Fathers and so by many other our weapons in Christe as in the laste Chapter your selfe haue confessed to sette a bolde face vpon it and vaunte that yet for all that the Scriptures be plainelye for you and plainely against vs. In which boldnes your impudencie cryeth euen to heauen when you dare yet vaunt thereof so farre to saye that the Church of God is faine therefore to blaspheme the holye Scriptures seeing them to make so plainely for you When you here in the laste Chapter and your Masters and Scholefelowes commonly in their writinges feare not to open your mouthes thus against Gods holy Tabernacle in earth I that am nothing and in very deede nothing and lesse then nothing may not disdaine the like opening at me by the foresaide Vnlearned but contenting me with mine owne conscience and the conscience of God him selfe and his Angels and all his Seruauntes that knowe me by my person or by my writings beeing moste certaine how alwayes in heart and worde I haue honored the most holy Scriptures euen as gods owne liuely and infallible worde I submit my selfe with Dauid in an humble and contrite heart to all that Semei hath or shall vtter against me if peraduenture my Lorde God most mercifull will accept it to forgeuenes of my manifold and heynous sinnes desiring of him no other reuenge but the parties conuersion and reconciliation to him and his swéete spouse my lieue Mother the Catholike Church And so muche in this place to that man In which place you also Fellow Fulke Arg. ab authoritate negatiuè may be admonished to looke better to your Logicke concerning your argument ab authoritate negatiuè that you oppose it no more to our so many argumentes ab authoritate affirmatiuè I gaue you a litle before two causes thereof consider them well I pray you All knowledge that Christian men haue of heauenly things you say Pur. 449. to mainteine your argument is grounded vpon the authoritie of Gods word meaning the Scripture Therefore as it is no good Logicke to conclude negatiuely of one place or booke of Scripture This is not conteined in it therefore it is not true So of the whole doctrine of God wherein all trueth necessary to saluation is conteined the argument is most inuincible that concludeth negatiuely thus All true doctrine is taught in the Scripture Purgatory is not taught in the Scripture therefore Purgatory is no true doctrine Letting Purgatory alone till anone there are two faultes I say in this reasoning One because the Maior is false as to all your textes alleaged for it I haue answered The other because although the Maior were true yet can not the argument be
Bestiam euen within one houre after the Beast that is together with Antichrist The vvhore Babylon to serue him as his féede knightes And so you sée euidently by these Seuen hills thus expounded that the woman which sitteth vpon them is not so litle a one as you do make her but that she is Mundus impiorum the whole multitude of the wicked euen frō the first beginning of the world to the last end thereof euen al in effect that at the later day shal be drowned in hel either for being of her Apo. 14.15 16.17.18 2. Pet. 2. or conforming them selues vnto her which in the Apocalypse is most manifest as the world of the wicked it was which was in the time of Noe drowned in the vmbraticall deluge So that Rome with the Emperour of it while it was against the Church was a member yet but a member of that woman As England contrariwise which was before so long together a notable member of the woman clothed with the Sunne is now become a member most miserable of the contrarie woman and for rewarde of her mutation and Apostasie thus plagued of God that now she must heare the Scriptures so perniciously detorted in all pulpits at large and may not heare them truely sincerely healthfully reported so muche as in poore papers which if she might fréely and much more in pulpits downe downe god wot full soone would this lying and absurd new Gospell come as by this litle which hath bene here saide any man of reason will not denie And now to our third question which is of Purgatory The third part Concerning the question of Purgatory D. Allen in the end of his booke of Purgatory made two chapters of answere to their Scriptures yet saith Fulke at the first of the two This Chapter is but Pro forma tantum Pur. 437. To make a shew of a confutation where the tenth part of our arguments are not rehearsed notwithstanding there and other where vp and downe he said inough to answere all But I shal endeuour therefore to satisfie the man better in this behalfe collecting together not only the tenth part but euen al his scriptures not omitting as much as one by my will though such collecting and disposing of things so dispersed cost me in euery Chapter of this booke as much or more labour then to answere the same afterward Well syr then you reason against Purgatorie by authoritie of Scripture in part negatiuely in part affirmatiuely And your negatiue reasoning is sometimes of a piece onely sometimes of the whole Scripture Againe when it is out of a piece onely it is partly out of some one place partly out of some one booke j Ab authoritate Scripturae negatiuè First therfore whatsoeuer you say negatiuely out of a piece whether it be one place or one booke you haue your selfe answered it for me Pur. 449. whatsoeuer it be in these words It is no good Logike to conclude negatiuely of one place or booke of Scripture This is not conteined in it therefore it is not true These be your owne words euen also speaking there of this selfe same matter euen of Purgatory Neuerthelesse to deale more substantially I will not sticke to rehearse those places also and to answere them particulerly One of them is 1. Thes 4. vpon which in your negatiue diuinitie you demaund and say Pur. 236. How hapneth it that in so necessary a place S. Paule findeth no other comfort to moderate the mourning of the faithfull but only the quiet rest of thē that are asleepe in the Lord and the hope of their glorious resurrection Sruely if S. Paule had bene of Chrysostomes mind he would haue prescribed other maner of comfortes Against the Fathers also as Chrysostome doth to wit exhorting them to prayers and almes for their friendes departed rather then to mourne so immoderatly Séeing you so reason out of this place I pray you let me aske you Haue you whensoeuer in Sermon or otherwise you would moderate the mourning of the faithfull no other comfort but onely these two yea I say more If you haue no mo comforts in that case and if there be no moe then S. Paule there prescribeth surely there is but onely one to wit the hope of resurrection For although he name them that are asleepe in the Lorde yet of their quiet rest after that sléeping that is to say after their death he saith nothing it is but your owne addition Another place with your negatiue Logikes demaund is where hauing graunted Pur. 362. that Tertullian Cyprian Augustine Ieronym and many more are witnesse that the solemne prayer for the dead in celebration of the Sacrament is the tradition of the Apostles you pose the Papistes notwithstanding and aske Why then the same is not set foorth by Matthew Marke Luke or Paule where they set foorth the institution of the Sacrament Your wordes at large and my aunswere go afore in the laste Chapter pag. ◠sauing that piece of your wordes which conteineth your negatiue reason most clearely and most boldly saying But agaynst this faigned tradition S. Paule cryeth with open mouth 1. Corin. 11. That which I deliuered vnto you I receyued of the Lorde c. This is the onely true substance of the Sacrament and onely right order of ministration and onely right vse and proper end thereof So you make as though the Apostle there prescribeth the whole order of ministration in so muche that it onely and no other may be the right order thereof contrarie to that whiche followeth in the same place Infra ca. 11. contr 44. The rest I will set in order when I come You declare your great skill in the Scripture when here so farre you misse of the Apostles purpose which was onely agaynst vnworthy receauing The greatnesse of that sinne he sheweth because of the Reall presence of Christ yea and that in the same maner as he was in his death Looke better vpon the place and sée whether it be not as I saye or rather as S. Augustine sayth Au. ep 118. ad Ian. ca. 3 Inde enim Apostolus indignè dicit acceptum ab eis qui non discernebant a ceteris cibis veneratione singulariter debita quod satis toto ipso loco in Epistola ad Corinthios prima si diligenter attendatur apparet For that respect the Apostle also doth say that they receaue it vnworthily who doe not by due and singularlye due worshippe discerne it from the rest of meates as sufficiently appeareth through that same whole place in the firste Epistle to the Corinthians if it be diligently considered So then where the Apostle intended no more but to correct the sinne of vnworthye receyuing there to require of vs to shewe that he prescribeth it to be offered for the dead yea and the whole order of ministration haue not you forsooth great reason And euen as great you haue where you argue out of particular
Apoc. 3. And if you yet doubt by what they ouercome whether by the Lambes bloud alone or also by theyr owne patient confession or affliction vnto death it is written there agayne And they ouercame the diuell by the bloud of the Lambe and by their owne martirdome dia â—on logoâ—â—es martyriâ—s auâ—on and loued not their life euen vnto death Apoc. 12. And S. Paule accordingly calleth it 2. Cor. 4. the mortification of Iesus when the Apostles were mortified for Iesus and saith they carried the same about continually in their bodies that also the life of Iesus might be manifested in their selfe same bodies at the latter day which is the same thing that the Apocalipse calleth to appeare before the throne in white stoles Wherby you sée that as the bloud of Christ so by it martyrdome also worketh such glory For so it foloweth there again This our affliction although it is but short and light operatur worketh vs euerlasting weight of glory exceding measure aboue measure Because affliction here for Iesus doth so wash our stoles or bodies therefore it procureth that they shal be so glorious in the Resurrection this say these Scriptures And so much of the foundations and by occasion of them Now to Purgatorie it selfe and prayer for the dead Secondly directly of Purgatorie it selfe and praier for the dead whether all the elect goe straight to Heauen Afore Christes comming Limbus patrum Directly against Purgatory prayer for the dead you shoote diuers arrowes or rather cockshotles so deadly are the woundes that your shot doth make First you will proue by many and euident Scriptures that all the Elect do go yea and alwayes from the beginning of the world haue gone straight to heauen therefore neuer no Purgatory neuer no Limbus Patrum Whiche if you can do your skill in the Scripture no doubt farre passeth all the auncient Doctors were they neuer so wel studied therin For they all could not finde so muche as one text that all or any one also went to heauen before Christ yea and not many textes Vide Sander monar li. 7. pag. 518.520 Pur. 57. that any one after him also goeth thither before the generall Resurrection but rather very many textes that vntill the Church within these 300. yeres defined the contrarie made it very probable that none are there till then Well thus you begin That the Fathers of the Old law before Christ were not in hell it is to be proued with manifest argumentes and authorities out of holy Scriptures But first you thinke necessary to answere one text that stoode in your way saying Although they were not nor yet are in perfect blessednesse God prouiding a better thing for vs that they without vs should not be made perfect Heb. 11. By that they of the old Testament wer not made perfect or consummate without vs of the new Testament S. Paule there doth meane euidently that their Soules were not yet admitted into heauen As in that whole Epistle he sheweth that the Old Testament did consummate nothing but contrariwise Heb. 7. Heb. 10. Heb. 9. that it made continually euery yere a commemoration of their sinnes because they remayned still and were not perfectly remitted and therefore that Christe dyed In Redemptionem earum praeuaricationum quae erant sub priore Testamento To buye out the preuarications that were all that while that so at length the heires might attayne the euerlasting inheritance which was promised Heb. 9. Nondum enim propalatam esse Sanctorum viam adhuc priore tabernaculo habente statum For the way into Sancta or heauen was not yet opened vntill the high Priest Iesus entred first thereinto Heb. 10. qui initiauit nobis viam nouam It was he that beganne this newe waye vnto vs who nowe therefore haue fiduciam in introitu Sanctorum Confidence to enter in after him béeing our forerunner into the same Sancta And all this is spoken of our Soules As for our bodies neither yet is the way open vnlesse Sancta were open when onely the High priest entred into them This was the prouidence of God for vs that we should not thinke we come to late if the Fathers soules had beene admitted in before vs. Confer the end of your owne text with the beginning of it Heb. 11. vt non consummarentur and non acceperunt repromissionem Sée how plainly he expoundeth their not consummating to be their not attayning of the promise And what promise Heb. 9. Confer this other place vt repromissioneÌ„ accipiant aeternae haereditatis That the heires might attayne the promise of euerlasting inheritance I might at large declare the same by the whole course of Scripture as D. Allen saith very well but that I am not here to alleage Pur. 439. but only to answere Well then against these most manifest Scriptures let vs heare the manifest authorities of Scripture which you pretend Pur. 57.58 For you say Seeing they all beleeued in Christ they had euerlasting life and entred not into condemnation but passed from death to life Io. 5. To what life but the life or resurrection of their bodies for vntill the last day all the dead are in death but then some shall come forth into resurrection of life some others into resurrection of damnation but he that beleeueth in me hath that is most certainly shall then haue Iohn 11. life euerlasting and commeth not into damnation but passeth from death wherein he hath so long bene to life This is the playne text of that place As likewise in all the New Testament lightly euery where life after corporall death signifieth the resurrection of the bodies where the soules be in the meane time here is neuer a word no nor of the Saintes of the old Testament afore the institution of Baptisme wherevnto beliefe in him giueth now accesse Ioa. 1. and 3 that belieuing in him they may haue life Io. 20. But their state we must gather out of other places of holy Scripture And to what end againe you say was Christ called the Lamb that was slayne from the beginning of the world but that the benefite of his passion extendeth vnto the godly of all ages alike This is your expounding of Scripture by Scripture you are a true man of your word The place is Apo. 13. Whose names were not written in the booke of life of the Lambes that was slaine froÌ„ the beginning of the world CoÌ„ferring it with this place Apo. 17. Whose names were not written in the booke of life from the beginning of the world you perceiue the error of your coÌ„struction It is not said that the Lambe was slayne from the beginning of the world but that all the reprobate shall adore Antichrist when he commeth as the Gospell also saith Mat. 24. that the Elect also should be then deceiued if it were possible Neuerthelesse that the Lambe was slayne from the beginning of the world is true though not in your fond
wide way and the narrow way Mat. 7. If there be but two wayes in this life you say there are but two abiding places after this life In the wide way of breaking Gods commaundementes some go wider then some with infinite varietie yet al in the wide way and these after death go to damnation namely their soules and straight to damnation because they haue nothing to stay thē out of it so much as a minute of an houre In the narrow way of keping Gods cōmaundements some go narrower then some with infinite varietie likewise yet all in the narrow way and these after death go to life though not straight in body none of them neither in soule also many of them because they haue somewhat to stay them out of it for a time to wit temporall debt of veniall sinne also of mortal sinne forgiuen but the due penance not fully payed nor fully pardoned And so you sée that the two wayes of this life stande well ynough with Purgatorie Pur. 436.444 Againe you alleage that it is written of the Iudgement 2. Cor. 5. we shall all stand before the Iudgement seate of Christ to receiue ech of vs the own of his body according as he did either good or euill Not D. Allen but as he alleageth S. Augustine Aug. Ench. cap. 100. Dion Ec. Hier. ca. 7. as also S. Dionisius Areopagita answereth that the Churches praying for the dead is nothing repugnant herevnto because the dead in our Lord in his life deserued that these workes after his death might be profitable vnto him And to this answer you haue no reply to mainteine that Scripture against such prayer Onely you oppose a saying of S. Hierom very fondly as in the next chap. I wil shew Once againe you reason of the Iudgement If Purgatory be so necessary to satisfie Gods iustice by temporall paynes of sinners Pur. 85. according to the time c. and Purgatory shal cease at the day of Iudgement as you affirme out of Augustine how shall the same be satisfied in such as dye immediatly before the day of Iudgement so that they haue not had time inough ther to be sufficiently purged The like may be demaunded of all them which in a moment shal be changed from mortalitie to immortalitie at the very comming of Iesus Christ to Iudgement These questions M. Allen will trouble your head to answere and retayne your former principles Two doughtie questions Where did D. Allen set downe that principle that Purgatory is necessary to satisfie according to the time I finde where he saith Pur. 44. If any debt or recompence remayne to be discharged by the offender after his reconcilement it must needes rise by proportion weight continuance number and quantitie of the faultes cōmitted before Wherby it must of necessity be induced that bicause euery man can not haue time to repay all in his life that there is all or some parte answerable in the world to come Here we haue continuannce of the faultes and time of his life but time of Purgatory that you haue to tell vs where you had it The truth is that a shorte time in Purgatorie will so pay the sinner that it had bene better for him to spende much longer time in penance as in this life also a litle while in fire passeth I trow the payne of longer time in fasting c. Neither is it hard for god to punish one in the shortest time as gréeuously as an other in 1000. yeres Nor again repugnant to his mercy to remit suche punishment at the request of his glorious Saints which is S. Augustines answere to your obiection as he nowe doth to the like for the Churches prayers Aug. de Ci. li. 21. ca. 24.27 Lo what a hard thing it was to answere your Demaundes Whether Faith Hope and Gods Will may stande with Purgatory After these two assaylings of Purgatory by going straight to heauen and by the iudgement there remayneth your third last assault Pur. 421. wherein you say to vs We learne by Scripture that your doctrine is contrary to the faith and hope of Christians And how shew you that Pur. 382. If it be against the hope of Christians to mourne for the dead much more it is against the faith and hope of Christians to pray for them For by our prayer we suppose them to be in miserie whom the word of God doth testifie to be in happines to be at rest to be with Christ Io. 17. Apoc. 14. Neither those Scriptures nor any other by you alleaged as I haue shewed do testifie that all straight after death be so and therefore to suppose some of them to be in miserie and so to pray for them is not proued to be against the worde of God Neither to mourne for some yea and for all is saide to be against Hope I would haue you knowe that they shal rise againe saith the Apostle to the end that you mourne not for them 1. Thes 4. sicut et ceteri qui spem non habent in such sorte as others that haue not hope of their Resurrection So then there is one maner of mourning without hope and there is another maner of mourning with hope and such is our mourneing with prayer When Christ praied for his own Resurrection Psal 15. Act. 2. did that argue him to be voide of hope or rather to haue hope When also we all pray for the generall Resurrection Thy kingdome come and mourne and grone for the dilation do we against hope doe we not rather most manifestly declare oure hope thereby Moreouer you saye there To that which is required of the expresse worde of God forbidding prayers for the dead we answere that all places of the Scripture that forbid prayers without faith forbid prayers for the dead For faith is not euery mans vayne perswasion but an assurance out of the word of God Which because we can not haue in praying for the dead therefore we are forbidden to pray for them This argument supposeth Cap. eodē part 1. that the word of God is onely Scripture which you can not proue as in the one place here aboue I haue declared Againe it supposeth that prayer for the dead is not assured by Scripture which besides the most expresse place of the Machabées and diuers others now shall another euident place control euen the same place that you alleage against vs. Thus you say Pur. 281. We learne out of Gods word that whatsoeuer we do pray for according to Gods wil we shal obteine 1. Io. 5. Therefore this one Hatchet shall cut a sunder al Prayers for the dead are not according to the wil of God and therefore they are not heard at all I denie the Minor you haue not nor can not proue it Yea I say further It is agaynst that which the Apostle there both intēdeth and expresseth to wit that we should pray for our brethren after they be dead if
his first Epistle telleth him 1. Ioh. 3. O my children let no man deceiue you he that worketh iustice is iust Free-vvill You alleage also two places against Frée-will which againe concerneth Good works in generall Pur. 450. We beleeue that man after his fall hath not Free-will no not aptnes of will to thinke any thing that is good 2. Cor. 3. S. Paules words are these We are not sufficient of our selues to thinke any thing as of our selues but our sufficiencie is of God This doth not take away from vs naturall fréewill nor naturall aptnes of will as it doth not take away our selues from vs but onely it sheweth from whence we haue power to do as we do in matters of saluation to witte of Gods gift and not of our selues If your scholler should vpon iust cause commend him selfe for writing as S. Paule there cōmenmendeth him selfe for conuerting hartes to God and then to auoyde arrogancie should say that it is not of him selfe but of his Masters instruction that he can write so well the scholler for all this I trow had vnderstanding and aptnes to vnderstand For els howe could he haue bene taught to write You know the Scripture likeneth the holy Ghost to a teacher Ioan. 6. Heb. 10. Psa 118. and the grace of God to teaching and to teaching of our hartes or wills Your other place I finde Pur. 35. How shall Free-will be mainteined if Gods Spirite haue any place that distributeth to euery one according to the good pleasure of his owne will 1. Cor. 12. You do not denie but Man afore his fall had Fréewill and yet Gods spirite then also did distribute to euery one according to the good pleasure of his owne will And now likewise after the fall doth not S. Paule in the very same Chapter giue some place to mens willes in the giftes of Gods spirite saying to the Corinthians Couet after the better giftes but specially after charitie because that passeth all those giftes 1. Cor. 12.13 14. yea and faith and hope also therefore Sectamini Labour al that you can for Charitie mary couet also after those giftes to speake with tongues and to prophecie but of the two rather for to prophecie Againe He that speaketh with a tongue let him pray to interprete Sée how playnely he stirreth their mindes or willes to séeke for the giftes that God giueth to euery one according to his owne will This deceiueth you that you do not consider that God can worke his owne will vpon our willes and therefore you imagine that he is not omnipotent if we haue willes of our owne Yes syr be our willes neuer so vnwilling he can as you may sée by the conuersion of S. Paule turne them to his owne will and to the very bende of his owne will more or lesse euen as much as he wil. Howbeit I am not ignorant that S. Paule there treateth specially of the giftes called Gratiae gratis datae and not gratum facientes in the distribution whereof Gods will maye and did commonly worke without cooperation of mans will although mans will may in such also and did sometimes concurre as in them that prayed for the gifte to interprete tongues About Good-workes in speciall I come with you now to the species of Good-workes Prayer to Saintes and first to prayer And of prayer for the dead I haue already dispatched Then against prayer to Saintes what haue you Pur. 451. We call not vpon Saintes because we beleeue not in them for how should we call vpon them in whom we beleeue not Rom. 10. Againe Pur. 310. Touching Ambrose and some other also about his time their Inuocation of Saintes was not agreable to the doctrine of S. Paule who sheweth that we can inuocate none but him in whom we beleue which to al true Christians is God only And yet if you remember since the second Chapter S. Ambrose and his felowes of that time were true Christiās But I must kéepe that to your contradictions in the eleuenth Chapter Heb. 13. Eph. 6. And againe S. Paul him selfe was I trow agreable to his owne doctrine who yet so often inuocateth and calleth vpon the faithfull beséeching them to pray for him Well then to your obiection where is your scripture for you will not if you be a man of your worde runne to Doctors that we must beléeue in God onely and that we may not beléeue (a) Exo. 14. in Heb. 2. Par. 20. in Heb. Philem. in his Saintes also The Scripture in your own place and in sundry other places teacheth me to beléeue also (b) Iohn 14 Rom. 3. in Christ according to his humanitie and namely in his bloud Also the Créede of the first Nicene Councell teacheth me to beléeue (c) Ar. 83. Epi. in fine Aucorat In the one holy Catholike and Apostolike Church as you may sée also in the end of the New Testament set foorth by your owne master Hier contr Lucif Infra ca. 10 dem 34. Beza And S. Hierome saith that it was solenne the custome in Baptisme after confession of the Trinitie to aske Credis in Sanctam Ecclesiam Doest thou beleue in holy Church And immediatly he addeth In what Church beleeued the Arrian In the Arrians Church But they haue not the Church In our Church sed extra hanc baptizatus but beeing baptized out of her he could not beleeue in her that he knew not Euen as S. Paule saith of Christ in the place that you alleage How shall they beleue in him whom they haue not heard of His intent ther is that the Apostles preaching to the Gentiles is of God Whereby you perceiue that S. Hierome remembred the place well inough Briefly therefore we beléeue not in the Arrians Church nor in the Arrians Saintes nor in your Church nor in your Saintes but we beléeue in the Catholike Church and in her Saintes because it is God and Christ his Church God Christ his Saints And so we do not inuocate Arius nor Hus nor Luther nor Caluine nor any other falsenamed Saintes of Heretikes but after God we inuocate Christ the man our Lorde and his moste glorious mother our Lady and S. Peter S. Paule with the rest of the Catholike Saintes both beléeuing in God in Christ in his Saintes and also inuocating God and Christ and his Saintes not all alike but euery one in his degrée the degrée of the Saintes being so farre different from the degrée of God as it is incomparable You deceiued your selfe with this distinction Credo in deum Credo deo Credo deum I beleeue in God I beleue to God Aug. in Io. tr 29. Theoph. in Io. 12. I beleue God hauing heard that some Authors do in a certayne sense make it be God alone in whom we beléeue and not knowing that other authors also the Scriptures will in another sense haue vs to beléeue in such as be of God As of
and you shall perceiue that it is but for lacke of the second which is Mitescere pietate to be meeke by pietie that you so presumptuously make obiections Pur. 386.208 calling them in your pryde vnauoidable resons against those bookes which by your own confession the whol true Church hath Canonized And what be these vnauoidable resons First because the author of the second booke commendeth one Razis for killing himselfe 2. Mac. 7. Au. 2. Gau. 23. ep 61 which is contrary to the worde of God S. Augustine answereth the Donatistes you at once saying Touching this his death the Scripture hath told it how it was done it hath not commended it as though it was to be done Secondly you say he abridgeth the fiue bookes of Iason But the Holy Ghost maketh no abridgementes of other mens writinges The booke of the Kinges in how many places it singnifieth that it abridgeth stories telling where they be written more at large in other bookes that were not Canonicall And is not S. Marke commonly called Breuiator the abridger of S. Mathew Also euery Sermon and letter in the Actes of the Apostles Aug. de cōsen Euang. li. 1. ca. 2.3 is it not an abridgement The Holy Ghost knoweth to poure againe through his new vessels both péeces of other mens writinges as you see Act 17. Tit. 1. and also bookes much more of Iason the Hebrew as also of Ethnike Poetes Thirdly He confesseth that he tooke this matter in hand that men might haue pleasure in it which could not away with the tedious long stories of Iason But the Spirit of God serueth not such vaine delight of men Is it vaine delight to desire profitable breuitie In your preface to the Reader you say I haue vsed great breuitie by a naturall inclination whereby I loue to be shorte in any thing that I write Do you compt your inclination a vaine inclination And who séeth not that in al the bookes of holy Scripture there is great obseruation of breuitie that amongst other causes also to auoide tediousnes Fourthly He sheweth what labour and sweat it was to him to make this abridgement ambitiously commendeth his trauill and sheweth the difference betwene a story at large an abridgemēt al which things sauour nothing of Gods Spirit And specially that in the end for al this you carp in the preface 2. Mac. 2. he cōfesseth his infirmitie desireth pardon if he haue spoken slenderly and barely Wherby he testifieth sufficiently that he was no scribe of the Holy Ghost That he ambitiously commendeth his trauell is but your blasphemie without any occasion geuen by him All the rest standeth wel ynough with the assistance of the Holy Ghost vnlesse you think that the scribes of the Holy Ghost may not speak of themselues as of men humano more or the they must alwayes be eloquent alwaies able to do al without swet without labour Doth not S. Paul asmuch cōfesse his like infirmitie whē he saith 2. Cor. 11. Etsi imperitus sermone though I be rude in speking Yea doth he not excuse his bouldnes for writing to the Romanes who were so full of all knowledge and saith that he did it not but onely to put them in remembrance of that which they knew well ynough before Rom 15. did he not also in that Epistle for his ease vse Tertius his hand Rom. 16. and the like commonly in writing all his other Epistles also as appeareth 2. Thes 3 That I speake nothing of his intollerable paines taken in Preachinge wherein also he was the instrument of the Holy Ghost and not onely in his Epistles These are forsooth your vnauoideable reasons Now to S. Hierome Hieromes testimonies Pu. 214. M. Allen aleageth the authoritie of Hieronym in prol Mach. But what he meaneth thereby or what place he noteth I know not quoth you Who wil beléeue that you are so dul In the vulgare Latin Bibles is a preface vpon the bookes of Machabées in it are these wordes The Bookes of Machabees although in the Canon of the Hebrewes they be not had yet of the Church they are noted among the Stories of the diuine Scriptures Those vsual Prefaces are taken commonly of S. Hierom somtime for word somtime for sense and so is this as will appeare by the two places that you bring out of him In his preface vpon the Booke of Kings you say he doth not onely omit it in rehersall of the Canonicall bookes but also accompteth it plainly among the Apocryphal He there reporteh how many letters are apud Hebraeos with the Hebrewes to wit two and twentie and that accordingly number for number primus apud eos liber the first booke with them is Genesis and so forth to two twentie So expressy he sheweth that he rekoneth the bookes there after the Hebrewes and therefore that he speaketh of their Canon when he saith afterward that all without these is to be put among the Apocryphall Therfore Sapientia which is commonly intituled Salomons and Iesus booke the sonne of Sirach and Iudith Tobias and Pastor for that booke also he mentioneth among the bookes of the old Testament of which onely and not of any of the new Testament he there speaketh non sunt in Canone are not in the Canon The first booke of the Machabes I found in Hebrew The second is a Greeke Now what maketh this for you or against vs doth any of vs affirme that these bookes were in the Hebrewes Canon Pur. 215. But you haue another place out of S. Hierome to proue that they were neither in the Churches Canon In his Preface vpon the booke of Prouerbes Therfore euen as the Church readeth in deede the bookes of Iudith Tobias and Machabees but yet receiueth thē not among the Canonicall Scriptures So also these two bookes Ecclesiasticus and Sapientia let her reade as she doth for the peoples edification but not to confirme the authoritie of the Churches doctrines to wit against the Iewes that is the answere because their Canon hath not these bookes in it But among the Churches people they were also then read publikly and solemly in their course as well as the other bookes of Scripture As S. Augustine also witnesseth of one of them by occasion saying August de Praed San. cap. 14. The booke of Sapientia hath bene thought worthy to be recited at the deske in the church of Christ tam longa annositate so long a rew of yeres and with worship belonging to a booke of diuine authoritie to be harkened vnto of all Christian men from Bishops euen to the lowest sort of laymen faithfull penitentes and Catechumenes This was that reading of it to the peoples edification And euen so S. Hierome expoundeth him selfe in his Preface vpon the booke of Iudith saying With the Hebrues the booke of Iudith is read among the Hagiographal not amōg the (a) Hieron prol galeato in li. Regum nyne Hagiographal
the writinges of the Apostles haue taught vs according to the foresayd rules in so much that wee compt it not at all Catholike whatsoeuer shall appeare contrarie to the rules appointed You are a great reader of the Doctors I sée Whosoeuer made that Homilie he tooke those wordes out of that brief Instruction which in the first Tome of the Councels foloweth the Epistle of Pope Celestinus to the Bishops of Fraunce concerning the Semipelagians which Bishops I thinke to be the Authors of the same Instruction They take it and so they say out of the determinations of those Bishops of Rome in whose time Pelagius and Celestius beganne their Heresie that is P. Innocentius and P. Zozimus and out of certein Aphrican Councels approued by those Popes And after 8. or 9. such Canons or articles they make an end saying As for certaine more suttle points we are not bound to resolue vpon them We thinke all that sufficeth enough which the writinges of the See Apostolike haue taught vs according to the foresayde rules or Canons in no wise thinking it Catholike that shal appeare to be contrarie praefixis sententijs to the resolutions set here before Againe in Gen. Hom. 58. Thou seest into what great absurditie they fal qui diuinae Scripturae canonem sequi nolunt Which will not follow the Canon of Holy Scripture but permit all to their owne cogitations Hée answereth the Heretikes which said that our Lord tooke not true flesh Then saith Chrysostome he neither was crucified nor dyed nor was buried nor rose agayne Into such absurditie they fall because they will not followe the playne line of Scripture but their owne imaginations of putatiue flesh such as was in the Apparitions of the old Testament What is this for onely Scripture But if we be further vrged we will alleage that which he saith In Euang. Ioan. Hom. 58. He that vseth not the holy Scripture but climbeth another way id est non cōcessa via that is by a way not allowed is a Theefe O Christian spirite if you be vrged you will call S. Chrysostome a Theefe by his owne saying for vsing Tradition As though he vseth not Scripture which vseth Tradition or that Scripture doth not warrant Tradition as 2. The. 2. The thing which S. Chrysostome there speaketh of is this that Antichrist and those pseudochristes Iudas Galileus Theudas and such others also heretikes Schismatikes as Luther Caluine c. cannot shew any commission out of Scripture But Christ and his Apostles with the other Catholike Pastors that succede them come into their cure by good warrant of Scripture These therfore are true Pastors the other are théeues We may be as bould with Chrysostome as he sayd he would be with Paule himselfe in 2. ad Tim. Hom. 2. Plus aliquid dicam I will say somewhat more we must not be ruled by Paule himselfe if he speake any thing that is his owne and any thing that is humane but we must obey the Apostle when he carieth Christ speaking in him And when is that when he speaketh all only by Scripture Will you not obey him then when he sayth Ego enim accepi a domino For I receiued it of our Lordes mouth 1. Cor. 1◠Sée in what a proper sense you vse Chrysostoms words These are the foure places One other you haue elsewhere saying Chrysostome vpon Luke cap. 16. saith Ar. 12. Chrys cō 3. de Lazaro that ignorance of the Scriptures hath bred heresies and brought in corrupt life yea it hath turned all things vpsidedowne By which it appeareth by what means he would haue heresies kept away namely by knowledge of the Scriptures And who would not the same It is therfore our dayly studie and we sée our selues and shewe others thereby the abomination of your Heresies and how you would face them out with a carde of tenne But what maketh this for Onely Scripture to be of authoritie As S. Chrysostome so in like maner S. Leo is of your side you say against vs and against him selfe For where D. Allen alleaged this saying of his Pur. 387. Leo Ser. 2. de ieiunio Pentecost It is not to be doubted but whatsoeuer is in the Church by generall custome of deuotion kept and reteined it came out of the Apostles tradition and doctrine of the Holy Ghost You answere that the saying of Leo the great may be backed with the writing of Leo the great Epist 10. They fall into this folly which when they be hindred by some obscuritie to know the truth haue not recourse to the words of the Prophets nor to the writings of the Apostles nor to the authorities of the Gospell but to them selues In these wordes Leo as Great as you would haue him maketh the Scriptures and not Customes or Traditions the rule of trueth So you gather of those words as also in another place That the Church should ouerthrow heresies Ar. 14. by the word of God onely Leo the first Bishop of Rome in his Epist 10. ad Flauianum contra Eutichen playnely confesseth He doth not saye that all truthes are expressed in the Scriptures though that be whereof he there intreateth to witte the Incarnation of Christ Mary when a trueth is expressed in the Scriptures recourse muste be had to the Scriptures So he sayth but he sayth not to the Scriptures onely yea in the very same tenth Epistle he blameth Eutiches the Heretike much more for not hauing recourse neither so muche as to our common Creede whiche is not Scripture you wotte well but a Tradition Ar. 15. Of the same iudgement you say was not Leo onely but the whole Councell of Constantinople the sixt Actione 18. confessing that the Heretikes and Schismatikes growe so fast because they were not beaten downe by preaching of the Gospel and authoritie of the Scriptures I confesse the same howbeit the Councell doth not But what is that for Onely Scripture yea the place is playne for the other side I maruell you could not espie as much euen by the piece that you alleage althogh you saw not the whole circumstance Béeing truely translated this it is If al men had simply and without calliditie from the beginning receiued the Gospels preaching and bene content with the Apostles institutions the matters verily had bene well a fyne and neither the authors of the heresies nor the fautors of the Priests had bene put to the paines of conflictes Who would rest here as you do and not imagine somewhat to follow with a but necessary to be séene Sed quia Satanas c. But because the diuell not resting raiseth vp his squires therfore Christ also in time conuenient hath raised vp his warriers against them to wit the Generall Councels that to this time haue ben holden by the dilligence of the Emperours and the Popes being Sixe in number So expresly they auouch the authoritie of the Councels and you alleage them for Only Scripture wheras also in the words that
a sacrifice or no and how it is or is not we nede not stand here about it As also because he doth not say that no sacrifice ought to be offered to Martyrs as you pretend but he speaketh of external sacrifice the definition wherof you may conceiue by that litle which I said cap. 6. pag. 49. and of one certaine externall sacrifice We offer the sacrifice to the one God Aug. de ci li. 8. ca. 27. That prayer to Saintes is not a sacrifice to Saintes who is both the Martyrs God ours At which sacrifice they be named in their place and order In so much that by this one Sacrifice he answereth the Paganes touching certaine dishes of meate brought by some Chrystians to the Martyrs churches euen as I answere you touching prayer made to them Non autem ista esse c. But that these be not sacrifices to the Martyrs he knoweth that knoweth the One Sacrifice of the Christians which is there offered to God Those Christians do meane no more but to haue them there sanctified by the merites of the Martyrs in the name of the Lorde of the Martyrs Let the third example be of ceremonies generally suche as he confesseth here cap. 3. pag. 15. to haue bene in the primitiue church also And two obiections of his against them I haue answered cap. 6. pag. 45. But now he will reproue them out of Scripture also first by his vsual argumeÌ„t ab authoritate negatiue Ar. 19. Because they are destitute of God his word which only is able to giue theÌ„ strength and estimation And yet in other places cleane contrary not only Scripture but also example of the Primitiue church is sufficient for them as where he saith Ar. 21.42 If any thing be allowed without controuersie on both sides it did either procede from the Scripture of God or froÌ„ the Primitiue Church Ar. 48. Iust Apol. 2. or els it is a thing meerely indifferent And to this purpose he citeth Iustinus Martyr who declareth playnly he saith what order of seruice and ministration of Sacramentes our Church vsed before Papistrie preuayled As though the booke or books of seruice were no more then these few lines in Iustinus And yet also to sée the blindnesse of this maÌ„ so litle as he bringeth out of that Martyr yet is there plaine against his CommunioÌ„ booke Water mingled with wine But no one word against the Masse booke yea it is the very suÌ„me of the Masse vnlesse you be so foolish to thinke that the Bishops sermon the Receauing of all present the Carying of it to them that be absent and the Rich mens offering may not be omitted in any Masse nor for any cause Now let vs here against Ceremonies Ar. 19. your authorities of Scripture affirmatiuely We detest and abhorre all your beggarly Ceremonies which you count holy and solemne obseruations For we know that God is not to be worshipped with such thinges but that the true worshippers must worship him in spirite and veritie Ioa. 4. Then belike you detest all Ceremonies and all outward thinges those also of the Primitiue Church yea and of the Scripture it selfe which erewhile you allowed You saw this reply and therefore in another place you would moderate the matter saying The seruice of God hath small neede of furniture Ar. 51. in outward things For God beeing a spirite is not worshipped with outward Pompe but with spirituall and inward reuerence And as for other furniture that is necessarie was decreed to the Church by the Emperour Constantine and his Successors Notwithstanding the Church was in better case before such furniture was graunted then since Like one that will not hold his peace and yet cannot tell what to say If Gods being a spirite admitteth some outward furniture well ynough then haue you missensed that text The meaning is that outward thinges without the inward man please not God But for all that the inward man may vse outward gestures outward wordes and other outward thinges as Christ him selfe his Apostles and all the Church euer did For so to do is to adore God who is a spirit in spirit truth And touching the other text that you alleage not but allude vnto those weake beggerly elemeÌ„tes Gal. 4. are the Ceremonies of the old law specially after the death of Christ whom they shadowed and much more the Galathians being Gentiles to whom they neuer parteyned and you wrest it against the Ceremonies that are vsed in the administration of the gracious Sacramentes of Christ and that by the order of them that could say Visum est spiritui sancto nobis Act. 15. It hath seemed good to the holy Ghost and to vs. Like as agaynst the Lessons Responses Versicles and suche other distinctions or varieties in the Seruice you alleage Matth. 15. Ar. 20. In vayne do they worshippe me teaching for doctrine the preceptes of men Such is your ignorance in the Scripture by reason of your malice The preceptes of men are those which be of men and not of God as those traditions of the two late Elders Hilleb Sammai béeing partly friuolous as those vayne lotions partly also contrarie to Gods Commaundementes as that of Corban Tit. 1. wherevppon S. Paule biddeth Titus to be earnest wiâ—h the Cretensians that they listen not to Iudaicall fables mandatis hominum and to the preceptes of men that turne away from the trueth Wherevpon the inuentions also of Luther Caluine and all other Heretikes are the preceptes of men and their followers worship they knowe not what Ioan. 4. Pur. 21. and if they be also zelous it is without knowledge Rom. 10. But so are not likewise the preceptes of them to whom our Sauiour saide He that heareth you heareth me and he that despiseth you Luc. 10. despiseth me And therefore S. Paule commaunded them of Syria and Cilicia Act. 15.16 to keepe the preceptes of the Apostles and Priestes that were decréed in the Councell of Hierusalem S. Augustine likewise here cap. 6. pag. 45. embraceth the Ceremonies decréed in Councels of Bishoppes and muche more them that are vsed throughout the whole Churche And you falsifie the Councell of Laodicia when you saye It decreed Conc. Lao ca. 59. that nothing should be song or read in the Churche but the Canonicall bookes of holy Scripture No Syr that did rather your friende Paulus Samosatenus who reiected the Psalmes and Songs which to the honour of our Lorde Iesus Christ Eus li. 7. c. 24. decantari solent are wont to be song saith Eusebius tanquam recentiores as beeing but lately made and set out by men of late memorie Renewing the Heresie of Artemon agaynst the Godhead of Christe the whiche a certayne Catholike doth there confute long afore ex Hymnis a fidelibus fratribus antiquitus perscriptis concentu quodam Eus li. 5. c. 27. By the Hymnes made of olde in meeter by faythfull brethren He
then they be the Churches nowe answering whatsoeuer obiections you haue brought against them Ar. 5. Againe you say As for the Popish Church she is so blind that she can not discerne betwene the Canonicall bookes of the Scriprere from the Apocryphall writings as appeareth by receiuing the bookes of the Machabees Ecclesiasticus c. to be of equall authoritie with the bookes of the Law Psalmes c. The Popish Church that Canonized those bookes was the Primitiue although ye call them Heretikes which did it as I haue shewed playnly Pur. 214. and by your owne confession cap. 9. pag. 165. and that you are fayne to saye that also the Primitiue Church therein did erre S. Augustine therefore as he saith to the Manichie denying the Actes of the Apostles Cui libro necesse est me credere si credo Euangelio quoniam vtramque Scripturam similiter mihi Catholica commendat authoritas I must needes beleue this booke if I beleue the Gospell because the Catholike authoritie commendeth vnto me both those Scriptures alike so he saith vnto you denying the Machabées Ecclesiasticus Iudith c. I must néedes beléeue them if I beléeue the Gospell because they also be in the Canon of the same Church as he telleth you playnly here cap. 9. pag. 165. And therefore they are but words when you said erewhile We allow and beleeue the Primitiue Churches testimonie of the word of God And againe Ar. 10.9 We haue most steadfast assurance of Gods Spirite for the authoritie of Gods booke with the testimonie of the true Church in all ages and so we know it to be true You beleue the Gospell for the Churches testimonie euen as much as the Manichies did because you reiect her authoritie Canon in other bookes as they did in the Actes And therefore againe you do but condemne your selfe when you say Ar. 4.5 The Church of Christ commended the bookes of holy Scriptures to be beleeued of all true Christians And againe The Church of Christ hath of the holy Ghost a iudgement to discerne the word of God of infallible veritie from the writing of men which might erre In so saying you both iustifie vs who as we confesse that Church so we beleue her Canon and condemne your selues who confesse it to be the true Church and yet deny her Canon yea and generally her authoritie here in the 34. Dem. holding stiffely that she may erre and did erre in many things and therfore making Only Scripture your ground for all things Wherin how contrarie you be to your selfe any man may sée and I must note it in the next Chapter In the meane time I note Cap. 11. cōtradict 33.34.35 Ar. 8. that you shew your selues not to be the Church that cōmaunded S. Augustine to beleue the Gospell in that you say fréely We do not chalenge credite to our selues in any poynt so presumptuously as the Papistes that men must beleue it because we affirme it but because we proue it to be true by the worde of God By what place of Scripture did either the Primitiue Catholike Church proue to S. Augustine or could you proue to the Manichée the Actes of the Apostles to be of Canonicall authoritie The true Church of all times is of like authoritie and therfore that which was not presumption then is not presumption now But what will not your terme of Only Scripture serue you vnto when by it you argue say Ar. 6. Our Congregation hath euer had both right and possession of the Scriptures as appeareth by this that our Church Congregation beleueth nothing but that she learneth in them And that be not a notable plea to proue a right and a possession yea and a continual possession I report me to your Lawyers What a forehead and face haue you to say A substantiall lye that your companie had euermore possession of the Bible Is it not euident that Luther and all that are come of him tooke their Bibles of the Papistes Leaue your impudent facing it is not your new vpstart Congregation it is our Catholike Romane Church which hath continually kept her possession of this Treasure which she receiued of the Apostles She it is that reiecteth no one booke therof she it is that with Gods spirite hath kept them from corruption of all Heretikes Ar. 5. If also the Arrians Donatists Nouatians Eutichians and other Heretiks receiued all the bookes of Scripture What doth that proue but only that those Heretiks should rather be the true church then you and that we might not vse against them this piece of our argument as we doe against you but this rather that they had those Scriptures of vs and caryed them out with them whē they went out from vs. So did also the Greeke Church Ar. 6. and other Esterne Churches of Asia and therefore If vnto this day they haue kept them neuer so safely they are not for all that the true Church Euery Article of D. Allens is not to proue absolutely that we be the church but some only that you be not the Church When our Church was oppugned by other enemies she knew what she had then also to do So she had hath her proper Motiues against the Iewes and therefore it is a wise Demaund of yours when you say Why are not the Iewes the Catholike Church which haue kept the old Testament in Hebrue more faithfully then euer the Papistes We doe not now encounter with the Iewes but presupposing the Religion and Church that Christ and his Apostles did institute to be true we geue plaine notes how a man may know that the Protestāts haue it not as because they deny some Canonical bookes of Scripture the Churches authoritie which is the foundation of the Canon And therefore that no wise man should be moued when he heareth them to claime it and that by pretēce of Scripture and false carde of Onely Scripture from vs who doe so faithfully beléeue and haue so vncorruptibly keapt all the bookes of the same As for the Iewes old Testament I towched your blindnes therein cap. 7. pag. 103. sufficiently and also your desperate impudencie pag. 103. in charginge the Church with reiecting of the Scriptures 37. Stoarehouse of all Trueth Motiue 29. As in our Church at this day a man may find all the holy bookes which the Church in old time layed vp in her Canon thereof so likewise all other Truthes I say in my next Demaunde which in any of her Councels or otherwise she ruled ouer canonized at any time against any Heresie of her rebells or against any error of her owne obedient children that the Protestantes all other Heretikes haue no truth among them but they had it of our Church which Church therefore I say is now and euer and she onely the Stoarehouse both of Canonicall Scripture Iren. cōtra Heraeses li. 3 ca. 4. and of all trueth beside And therefore againe
of his fellowe members here on earth And why is he not of charitie bound as well to pray for them And if he be why are not those members in heauen as well or haue not they also receiued of God some giftes If they haue why are not they of charitie bound as well or doth not the Scripture say plainly the Christes friendes in heauen do reioyce with his penitentes in earth How then coulde you pretend Luc. 15. as though the mutuall offices of loue whereby one member hath compassion with another can by no meanes touch the state of the dead Is not the state of the holy Angels now the state also of some that be dead Be not they also among Christes friendes in heauen So much you say touching the Communion of the Church militant here on earth For you haue another besides it which you call the communion of the whole body that you make to be the participation of life from Christ the head If that be all then is there no Communion For what communion were it betwéene the members of your naturall body if they did onely receiue life from your head and could not vse their said life to profit one another but liued euery one to himselfe alone How much better had you bene to follow D. Allens most proper and true discription of it then to vtter thus you know not what at the least if you could not correct him yet you could belye him as to say that he will haue other workes and wayes of saluation beside the bloud of Christ He saith that in this Communion all workes and all wayes of saluation are common to the whole body al grounded in the bloud of Christ But of any beside the bloud of Christ he saith not Yea it is clene contrarie to that which he saith ¶ The .13 Chapter or Conclusion That in his two writings against D. Allen there is yet stuffe ynough to make another Booke as bigge as this to the further discredite of his partie THus at the length with the helpe of God I am come to the end And yet the Reader must vnderstande that I finde in this man such store of this stuffe as would suffice to make another volume as big as this partly by enlarging these two last Chapters with many more of his like contradictions errors or ignorances for all the former Chapters be full freyted partly by making many new Chapters vpon new matters As one to shewe howe he behaueth himselfe in all places where he chargeth either the Catholikes doctrine or D. Allen himselfe with contradictions Another to lay together all his falsifications of the Scriptures Doctors and D. Allen by adding diminishing or chaunging their wordes Another of his most impudent facing lyes without any colour of truth Another of his detestable raylings not only at D. Allen but also at the old Doctors and at Rome and at the whole Churche which he can not auoide the Scriptures with his owne confession are so plaine for it but it is the true Church his owne Mother and Spouse of Christ Another of his ridiculous answeres to many of D. Allens Demaundes sometimes like him that answered a pokefull of plumes whē he was demaunded the way to London sometimes to answere the very same thing that is in question c. Moreouer diuers others chapters yet of Purgatorie about his answeres to D. Allens allegations to sée whether he haue so answered thē as I haue here answered al his allegations against it yea against any other Article of ours One of those Chapters might be to gather all the Scriptures alleaged by D. Allen the auncient Fathers before him and Fulkes answeres vnto them with my replies which are e dispersed in this booke like as in the 8. chapter I haue gathered al Fulkes scriptures answered thē Another of such bookes in antiquitie as he denyeth namely the workes of S. Dionysius Areopagita and the Constitutions of the Apostles by S. Clement because he could not otherwise auoide their plaine testimonies for prayer for the dead they also liuing euen in the Apostles time and familiarly with the Apostles Of which bookes notwithstanding there are such probations as can not possibly be answered Reade the Preface of Fr. Turrianus in his new edition of those Constitutions and the Preface of Mat. Galenus ad Areopagitica Cop. Dial. 2. ca. 5. as also the Preface and Scholies in the Gréeke edition by Morelius at Paris Anno. 1562. In another Chapter I might shew how vainely he laboureth to answer certaine testimonies of the other Doctors considering that he graunteth other testimonies of the very same Doctors them selues or of their seuerall times to be so euident for it that they can not be answered for which cause also he passeth by many of them with silence as that S. Augustine in one place prayed for his mothers soule and yet to stand with D. Allen about other places of his that they proue it not as though Doctors opinion and iudgement being confessed there néedeth any more to doe to be made about his sayings And yet it is nothing also which he answereth to those other places as I haue shewed in very many of them Another might be to lay together all D. Allens argumentes or reasons for it with my replies to Fulkes answeres such as I haue made in diuers places of this booke In another I could shewe that Fulke hath made no answere lightly to these Scriptures Doctors or reasons but D. Allen did foresée it afore hand warned the Reader of it and made so iust a replie vnto it as standeth still vpright euen after that Fulke hath done the worst he could Another might be to shew out of Iustinus Martyr Ireneus and Clement Alexandrinus in how many things they also make with vs most euidētly as in nothing against vs because he doth so oftē require vs to proue prayer for the dead by any of them as though he would yéeld to them although he will not to their fellowes wheras in déede he excepteth against them no lesse as I haue shewed then against the rest Another might be by occasion of his zeale for Caluine Luther and such other his Maisters and fellowes to shewe more copiously that they are worthily charged not onely with those shamefull opinions by D. Allen but also that they may be likewise charged with very many moe no lesse yea and much more shamefull then those These matters are such as being so handled would worke the further discredite of Fulke and of his side and yet being no more handled then alreadie doe leaue no blotte in our side no nor so much as in D. Allen particularly For which cause I minde not neither hereafter to prosecute them vnlesse I haue greater occasion geuen then yet I sée But presently I omitted them to auoide more prolixitie and specially because in this booke I tooke in hand to defend not D. Allen but the Church and therefore whatsoeuer
neyther hath priuilege nor authoritie and yet out it commeth by permission at the least to make forsooth a face and showe of somewhat for a time and if after it chaunce to be of some Catholike dasht out of countenaunce then the shame to be no mans but onely Fulkes All which considered I doubted a while whether it were good to returne him an answer or no least peraduenture I should but lease my labour rather to expect yet somewhat longer whether any do answer my Motiues or Demaunds as by aduise out of England I haue nowe more then this tweluemonth wayted therevpon Yet my resolution hath bene séeing that abundans cautio non nocet to put out my hande a litle and take of his vizard that being playnly discouered euery man may beholde and abhorre his foule fauour and beare me witnesse that he had bene better to kéepe in not onely those nine yeres and two yeres but also for euer following rather the ensamples of those other two brethren mentioned in his preface to the Reader of whom the one purposed to haue answered the booke of Purgatory himself but afterward vndertooke rather the printing of Fulkes answere the other learnedly began the answering of it but was he knoweth not how letted from the accomplishing of the same So hath Satan hitherto hindred the setting abrode of this answere sayth he of his owne but God hath now at length brought it forth I doubt not he addeth but to his glory and the confusion of satan in his members the Papistes As I also doubt not but God in déede hath brought it forth to his glory and to the confusion of heresie so that satan had done more politikely to haue hindred still if he could the setting abrode of it such stuffe it conteineth Better stuffe we should haue had if better had they had Well séeing that M.D. Allen is otherwise and better occupied I who haue already succéeded him in his Articles and do owe vnto him at one worde all duetie both for the publike and namely for my priuate will here with the helpe of God laye so much of Fulks wares open out of both his bookes that although my meaning is directly against his first booke yet my treatise shall appeare to be a iust reply to both his bookes First therefore I will shew briefly how he confesseth that out of the true Church is no saluation See the contentes more at large in the ende of this booke to this ende that when as in my processe it shall be manifest that he and his felowes are out of the true Church and that we haue the true Church both they may clearely sée in what case they stand and their felowes may looke in time vnto their reconciliation Secondly I will shewe somewhat more at large for what space he graunteth the true Church to haue continued in sight and knowledge of the world and what persons and companies to haue bene of it to the ende that neither he nor no man else being able to proue that we agrée not with those times and persons in substance of religion or haue gone out of the vnitie of their communion it may euidently be séene that we likewise at this time be of the same true Church and he with his fellowes to be without the true Church because they be out of our Church Thirdly for as much as on the other side he could not denie but that he and his agrée not with the saide true Church I will shew how he is fayne to holde that the true Church may erre and that he chargeth it then with the same errours with the which he chargeth vs now to the end that thou mayst sée that for all those surmised errours he hath not any iust cause to denie vs the true Church which he giueth to them that with vs were in the same errours Nay I will further declare in the fourth place that he chargeth them with diuers errors wherewith he neither can nor doth charge vs that it may much more appeare that we haue the true Church nowe if they so much worse then we had the true Church then Fiftly I wil report the reason for which by his saying they had the true Church then notwithstanding their errors to the end that where thou shalt sée it to be such a reason as agréeth to vs nowe as well thou mayst perceyue that he must no lesse graunt vs the true Church now After this I will note briefly his zeal towards Caluin and others that in déede are or at least be vnfaignedly thought of him to be of his Church at this time how that he can not in any wise beare any thing to be spoken agaynst them whereas yet he not onely can beare but also him selfe speaketh so much agaynst the olde auncient Church and the members thereof And in consideration hereof my Catholike zeale must do no lesse as béeing in déede with all other Catholikes of this time a member of the very same auncient Church in olde time but answere for the said Church shewing in euery particuler how vnworthily and vniustly he chargeth it with erring Which I will in like maner do for the Church also of later times defending it likewise against all his like accusations of it Seuenthly I will declare howe that séeing manifestly the true Church Councels Fathers and all other euidences of Christian Religion to make cléerely against him and his he is faine and nothing abasht at the matter to take exception against all by the bare name and colour of Onely Scripture and therein behaueth him selfe so boldly as if the holy Scripture were as manifestly with him as all the other are manifestly against him Where also because like an other Phormio homo confidens he prouoketh vs to a disputation of Scripture I will make him a reasonable offer Eightly I will most cléerely shew how that not withstanding all these great crakes and bolde facinges of his he hath not for all that in these two bookes alleaged so much as one text of Scripture that maketh any whit against vs. And to that purpose I will aunswer all his allegations first concerning Onely Scripture to be credited next concerning the Church whether it can erre and whether we haue it or they then concerning Purgatory and last of all concerning all other matters that any where he mentioneth by the way Ninthly I will likewise shew whereas he maketh himselfe so sure of Scripture that he holdeth the testimonies of Councels and Fathers to be no confirmation of trueth and alleageth them sometimes notwithstanding although because of his so holding I might neglect those allegations yet I will shewe I say that of all which he alleageth no one neither expoundeth any Scripture nor beareth any other testimonie with him against vs. Which wil be a plaine demonstration of that which I proposed here aboue in the second Chapter to wit that wée haue still the true Church because we still so throughly and entirely agrée
pag. they held it not and therefore both to be alike iustified or both alike condemned as I shall haue a place againe in the .9 Chapter to declare further when I answere to all that he alleageth vp and downe to proue that wée agrée not throughly with the Fathers in substance of doctrine ¶ The sixt Chapter An answere first to all the foresaid errors wherwith he hath charged the Church of the first .600 yeares and afterward likewise to all errors that he layeth to the Church of these later times HItherto I haue so procéeded in this my defence of our Churche that now is as supposing that both it the auncient Church before it hath erred in manner as he chargeth it and declaring that he must confesse it to be the true Church still notwithstanding that it erreth now as he confesseth it to haue bene the true Churche afore notwithstanding that it erred in many of the same articles and also in sundry others then But now if I can further defend it that for all his accusations yet it hath not euer erred neither in those former nor in these later ages Note vvel you that seeke for the Church then will the curable Reader I hope much more acknowledge that it is most worthely to be sought vnto and obeyed and their Antisynagogue to be forsaken and abhorred and that much more againe if moreouer I defend it that also it can not erre For then séeing they confesse that theirs may erre it will follow therof that theirs is not the true Churche But that point I wil reserue to the .8 and .9 Chapter where I will answere the Scriptures and fathers that he any where alleageth to proue that the true Church may erre here I will but maintaine that it hath not erred Fulkes zeale in answering for Caluine and others being in deede of his Church And this to doe I am moued specially by the truth of the matter it selfe but secondarily also by example of this same Fulke who though he say that their Church may erre yet can not his zeale abide to heare that it doth erre or rather he saith no more but that the true Church may erre so as where he may séeme to speake of a true Church distinct from their Church now to wit of the Fathers Church But else when he speaketh expressely of their owne Church that now is as he holdeth alwayes earnestly that it doth not erre so he neuer saith so much plainely as that it may erre yea sometimes also in his zeale he breaketh out against the Fathers them selues at once and against vs as where D. Allen said Pur. 369.371 One of them was so impudent to say in an open booke that the Liturgies of the Fathers made all against the Catholiks And a litle after If their Seruice like you so well or at least better then S. Gregories Masse you might with more honestie haue coped for any one of them then haue forged a new one of your owne which in deede is directly repugnant to all other rites in the Christian world To this I answere saith Fulke We haue with more honestie reformed our Liturgie according to the word of God example of the oldest Church then Gregorie Basill Chrysostome if they were theirs or whosoeuer were authors of those Liturgies did leauing the ancient Liturgies that were vsed in the Churche before their time because they did not sufficiently expresse their errors superstitiō forge them new of their owne contrary to the word of God And in another place first on the one side he accuseth S. Ambrose the Church afore in his time Pur. 226. saying Such superstitions crept into the Church by emulation of the Paganes Then on the other side of his owne he saith For auoiding of all which inconueniences that haue risen and may rise The vvise Church of Geneua by ceremonies practised at burialls the Churche of Geneua very wisely godly vseth no more ceremonies in burying their dead then are conuenient for the reuerent laying vp of the corps Pur. 412. Againe where D. Allen saith They be as saucie with Gods Churche Councells and chiefe gouernours as we be with the Iackestrawes of Geneua See here I pray you the zeale of the man You confesse hereby your selfe to be a saucie Iacke And he addeth that the world can testifie that there is passing grauitie and modestie in the lightest persons of all that Churche Againe where D. Allen saith Pur. 341. If all Ecclesiasticall foundations should returne to the founders againe because their willes are not fulfilled that then perhaps this wiued newe Cleargie might be driuen to serue in a reformed French barne his zeale is so great that he can not hold but You iest saith he like a scornfull caitife of those holy assemblees of Gods childrē in Fraunce Pur. 203.205 Infra ca. 12. num So likewise by name for Caluin other his masters let vs a litle behold his impacience D. Allen toucheth Caluine for denying all communion betwéene Christes members that are in this life and in the next For this Fulke saith vnto him You haue a pleasure to spue out your pestilent poyson against that noble light of Gods Church M. Caluine Againe where he noteth his strange doctrine about Christes discending into hell Fulke answereth Pur. 61.63 Infra ca. 1 pag. He vttereth his spite against Caluine he spitteth out agaynst him moste impudent slaunders raylings and lyes not satisfying him selfe with the voyce of a man he hath borowed the tong of the diuell him selfe Whose doctrine God him selfe the Angels and all the worlde doth know and testifie to be directly contrary to these slaunders And straight after But because he woulde not be thought to haue spued out all his poyson agaynst Caluine he goulpeth vp another bowlefull of rayling slaundering against our Bishops who haue not onely suffered but also commended Caluines bookes to be read and studied of the simple Curates affirming that they do priuily set forth by books that which they dare not openly preach All this and more of like sorte he hath there and yet saith in the very same place that he doth somewhat moderate his corrupt affections Also in an other place Pur. 45. Without all shame or shew of truth most impudently he faineth a contrarietie betwene Melancthon and Caluine O brasen face and yron forehead With litle zeale he saith for another Pur. 147.89 Whatsoeuer M. Iewel hath affirmed against the Papistes he hath substantially and learnedly defended Againe As for that reuerend father M. Iewel whom this arrogant Louanist calleth the English bragger how well he hath answered his chalenge his owne learned labors do more clearly testifie vnto the world then that it can be blemished by this sycophantes brainlesse babling In déede he hath so well quitted him selfe that the very reading of his answere hath turned many earnest Protestantes into earnest Catholikes as both by the numbers
antiquarie saith against antiquitie of whom also for so saying Pamelius a farre better antiquarie then he saith thus Quod quà m sinistrè detorqueat Rhenanus ad dies natalitios Ethnicorum nemo ignorare debet c. Rhenanus turneth this place of Tertullian from the right meaning very vntowardly to the byrthdayes of the Gentiles Howbeit in my iudgement Rhenanus there might be better construed not to say that the oblations of Christians were euer for their owne birthdayes but that vpon the byrthdayes of the Martyrs which the Church did celebrate with the solemne oblations of the Altar many of the people kept drunken feasting as the Gentiles did euery one vpon his proper byrthday Which drunken vtas the Church was fayne to tolerate for a time but afterwarde the Canons of the Nicene Councell and others following did forbid it and chaunge it into almes If you could shewe those Canons we might be more certayne of his meaning Playne it is that he speaketh very confusely of birthdayes And playne agayne it is that suche rioting was vsed of some in Paulinus whom he there citeth and S. Augustines times long after the Nicene Councell See Rhenâ— himselfe 〈◊〉 Tert. ad Mâ—tyres num â— And agayne most sure it is that the Church alwayes from the beginning hath vsed and no Councell euer did forbid the kéeping of the Martyrs birth-dayes with oblations of the Altar Finally Rhenanus in those annotations is full of scapes ouersightes and noted accordingly by the learned of this time very much though no yll meaning Beeres to cary home the Corpses One error more you charge vs withall about the dead touching their bodies as the former were touching their soules Ar. 22. George the Arian Bishop of Alexandria inuented Beres to cary dead corpses charging all men to vse them for his owne aduauntage as do you Papistes your Bearing clothes and other toyes for funerall pompes Epiph. li. 3. tom 1. haer 76. Epiphanius doth not say that George inuented Beres but that he deuised to haue them in a certayne number His wordes are these to shewe the miserable couetousnes of that man No trade almost so base no thing so meane whereof he sought not gayne For so muche as Beres for the dead he deuised to make the number of theÌ„ certayn without those that he ordeined no corps of the dead specially of strangers was buried non propter hospitalitatem not for any charitie towards strangers but as I haue said for lucres sake For if any buried a corps otherwise he came in daunger Now if this or the like miserablenes be in any Bishop of ours or yours eyther to racke his people or to vsurpe the liuing of his Cleargie what is that agaynst Béeres or Bearing clothes or comely pompe of funerals or against the Church that vseth them specially your selfe also commending in your Geneua Church Pur. 22â— suche Ceremonies as are conuenient for the reuerent laying vp of the Corps vnlesse you thinke it much for the Church to reape their Carnalia to whom she soweth Spiritualia or would prouide for your selfe a Béere Bearing clothes against you shal be buried 1. Cor. 9 rather then to pay the common duties to your parish Church Thus haue I folowed you through all the errors common to vs with the auncient true Church taken as you saye of the Gentiles or of Heretikes but as I haue playnly shewed not any one of them so nor so What more you haue of them belongeth to the eyght and ninth Chapters where I haue promised to answere all your testimonies out of Scripture and others about any matter to day in controuersie and thither I referre the Reader for the last error also about the Popes Superioritie hauing nothing here to be answered because though you say that the auncient Church had that error also yet you do not say that it tooke it of the Gentiles or of any Heretikes The second part Concerning the errors that he layed Cap. 4. to the Fathers and not to vs. j. Touching the heresies which were in their times Now followeth the second sort of the Churches errors that is those errors which you lay to the auncient true Church and not to vs also To answere you therevnto likewise and that very briefly What a thing is this that you charge the Church in the Apostles time with the heresies that were in the Apostles times And the same Church agayne in the thrée Arian Emperors time with the heresie of Arius As if a man would charge the same Church now that is our Romane Church with your heresies For you say Ar. 15 35. Dem. 45.46 not only Pope Liberius of whom I must answere in the tenth Chapter but the true Church was greatly infected with the heresie of Arius And you bring in the heresies of the Apostles time to declare that euen then the Church decayed counting it also all one to erre and to decay And yet of your owne imagined Church that in the time of Pope Bonifacius the third fled into the wildernes you can say thus Where she hath not decayed Ar. 16.15 Infra ca. 11 cont 31. but bene alwayes preserued D. Allen notwithstanding when he saith that the Church alwayes stoode still and stedfast whilest all other Congregations as Arrians c. haue decayed must be controlled and tolde of the persecutions vntill the time of Constantine and of great detriment vnder Iulianus the Apostata and of a great Eclipse vnder the barbarous Gothes c. Besides the foresaid infection vnder the thrée Arrian Emperors If amid those persecutions and heresies it had not bene alwaies preserued then you might haue said that it had decayed You shew wel that hell gates haue fought sore against it but you shewe not that they haue at any time preuailed Yea the truth is in my Booke of Demaundes in the second Demaund you haue it that the Churche alwayes preuailed according to Christes promise and predictions and that so cléerely and so gloriously that both the persecuting Romane Emperours gaue ouer at length their obstinacie and vaine kicking against the pricke submitting themselues to the very same Church which afore they persecuted yea moreouer continuing Christians euen to this day and also all heresies Arrians and others vanished quite away neither the persecutions being ought els in effect but an occasion of innumerable Martyrs the commodities of whom we heard a little Supra 55. Greg. â—ral li. 9 7. before out of S. Augustine nor againe the heresies ought els but an occasion of so many most worthy Doctors both Gréeke Latine and their most excellent writinges at which to this day all the later heretikes doe quake and tremble by which to this day the Catholike Church alwayes conquereth and triumpheth ij Touching the errors of S. Cyprian S. Irenee and S. Iustinus Which Doctors if any of them haue erred in some thing or other yet this is notable that not so much as in their errors or
it is a case that may trouble a mans conscience that would beleeue your Church and if he haue any wit restrayne him for euer coÌ„ming into your Church If you can not vntye this knot nor winde your selfe out of this maze c. So insoluble forsooth are your argumentes agaynst the Church of God iij. Touching the Constance Councell presumption But the thirde error I trow will sticke faster by vs because it is amongest those determinations of the Councell of Constance whiche were made agaynst the foresaide Heretikes which I haue confessed to be confirmed also by the Pope And this it is in Fulke his owne wordes Pur. 4. It is horrible presumption that any man or multitude of men should take vpon them authoritie to define agaynst the worde of God as the Councell of Constance which decreeth in playne wordes That notwithstanding Christ instituted the Sacrament to be receiued in both kindes and that the faythfull in the Primitiue Churche did so receiue it Manifest falsification yet the custome of the Church of Rome shall preuayle and whosoeuer saith contrarie is an heretike c. These he printeth in a distinct letter as the playne words of that Councell Con. CoÌ„st Sess 13. but the words truely reported are otherwise The Councell first telleth that certayne temerarious persons not onely do communicate the lay people in both kinds and after supper but also obstinately holde that they must be so communicated See Augu. ep 118. ca. 6 Then saith the Councell Hinc est c. Vpon this occasion this Councell doth declare determine and define that although Christ did institute after supper this venerable sacrament there is one piece And did minister it to his disciples vnder both formes of bread and wine there is the other piece yet this notwithstanding the authoritie of the sacred Canons also the laudable and approued custome of the Church hath obserued and doth obserue that this same sacrament must not be consecrated after supper nor receiued of the faithfull when they haue broken their fast c. there is agayne for the first piece And likewise that although this same sacrament were in the primitiue Church receiued of the faithfull vnder both formes yet for the auoyding of certaine dangers and scandles this custome was reasonably brought in that they which consecrate receiue it vnder both and the layetie onely vnder the forme of bread c. there is agayne for the second piece That which you report is one thing and this is an other thing For you also your selfe I thinke will not deny but that it is a good custome not to consecrate nor receiue it after supper although Christ did institute it after supper Neither do you therein graunt Christes institution to be agaynst that custome 1 No more doth the Councell graunt that practise of the primitiue Church to be against the custome of one forme For both are very reasonable and therefore both standing well together not onely at diuers times but also at one time in diuers places or of diuers persons 2 Muche lesse doth the Councell graunt as you make it to do that Christes institution was agaynst this custome of one forme 3 adding also such presumptuous words to say and yet the custome of the Church of Rome shall preuayle No such words are there reade the whole Chapter who will he shall finde to be spoken very reasonably very modestly and euery way as may beséeme a Councell iiij Touching certaine false interpretations of Scripture To the last error I referre certaine outcries that he maketh against our Church for the false interpretation of certaine scriptures But first let the Reader heare D. Allen out of his booke of Purgatory Marke well he saith and you shall perceiue Cap. 11. Pur. 14 that the Church of Christ hath euer giuen roome to the diuersitie of mens wittes the diuision of graces and sundry giftes in exposition of most places of the whole Testament with this prouiso alwaies that no man of singularitie should father any falsehood or vntruth vpon any text And to declare this doing of the Church he there alleageth that worthy Doctor of the Church S. Augustine Au. coâ— li. 12. câ— ad 32. Doc. Câ—sti li. 1.36 li cap. 27 who in two bookes writeth excellently and copiously to this purpose requiring principally that in euerye texte a man alwaies shoote at the sense of the writer Least by vse of missing the way he be brought to goe also the sideway or the contrarie way But although he misse that sense if he hit any other sense quae fidae rectae non refragatur that is not repugnaÌ„t to the right faith or quae aedificandae charitati sit vtilis that may serue well to the edifying of charitie towardes God and our neighbour that then nihil periculi est there is no daunger non perniciosè fallitur he is not harmefully deceiued nec omnio mentitur no nor is a lyar at all But rather the writer him self Et ipsam sententiam forsitan vidit peraduenture saw euen that sense also or at the least the Spirit of God which was in him foresaw that the same sense also would come in the Readers way Imò ut accurreret quia c. Yea and ordayned that it should come in his way for it also standeth on truth Now vpon this in his article of the Churches erring Ar. 86. he offereth the Protestants saith Let any man proue vnto me that the true and onely Church of God may falsely interpret any sentence of holy Scripture I recant Fulke herevnto saith This gentle offer must needes be taken I will proue vnto you that the Churche of Rome hath falsely interpreted diuers sentences of Scripture and therefore by that which she hath done it can not bee doubted but that she may doe it And for the first he there bringeth forth Pope Innocentius with S. Augustine and all the Westerne Churche at that time falsely interpreting this Scripture Supra ca. 6 pa. 2. Except ye eate the fleshe c. Wherevnto I haue already answered For the next he saieth Furthermore the second Councell of Nice howe many textes of Scripture doth it salsely interprete which it were to tedious to repeate yet for example sake I will rehearse some of them God made man to his owne image Gen. 1. therefore we must haue Images in the Church No man lighteth a candle and setteth it vnder a Bushel Mat. 5. therefore Images must be set vpon the Altars As we haue heard so we haue seene in the Citie of our God Psal 48. that is God must not be knowen by onely hearing of his word but also by sight of Images If these be not true interpretations I report me to you This is answered already by yâ— which hath bene said out of S. Augustine For to interpret any text for Ecclesiastical Images is to interpret it for the right faith not to interpret it falsely or to father any
falshood vpon it We néede not to defend in Councells any more but their definitions therfore if they define that this text hath this sense as the Councell of Trent hath done in some we defend it accordingly Otherwise neither the Councell taketh vpō it to hit alwayes the very sense of the text And yet notwithstanding by S. Augustine à maiori in the places aboue noted I aduise all men not to be saucie with Councels no nor with particular Doctors lightly iudging them and saying that they misse the right sense least their saucines haue one day sowre sauce And specially you Sir if you make not amendes in time looke you to drinke of your Master Caluins Cuppe Calu. Insti li. 1. ca. 11. whose malitious steppes you here blindly followe neglecting to looke before you leaped For I must tell you yet further that the Councell for all your saying doth not so interpret those textes But only the litle Emperour Constantinus his mother Irene in their Epistle to the Synode doe exhort the fathers being then gathered to declare their Synodicall iudgement Actione 1. as other Synodes before them had done so to geue forth the world their light and the light of the Holy ghost For as much as no man lighting a Candle putteth it vnder a bushel according to our Lordes saying but vpon a Candlesticke that it may geue light to all that are in the house Is not this application most apt to that text and euen to the intention of our Lord when he spoke it Likewise it is not the Councell but the Pope Adrianus which in his Epistle to the forsaid Emperours saith Acti◠Yea also our Maker worker God our Lord after his owne Image and likenes did shape man of the clay and did lighten him setting him in free power of him self Not citing it to cōclude that therfore we must haue Images in the Church but to answere Nugas the triflyng obiection of the Heretikes who pretended the making of an Image to be against the article of one God Not so saith the Pope Nequaquam autem sic statuamus Let vs not bee so perswaded For all that we exhibite in desideriū dei Sanctorūque eius perficitur is in fine a great list to God to his Sainctes For as he there citeth the saying of Stephanus Episcopus Bostrorum If Adam had bene an Image of the diuels that is to saye of false or other Gods vndoubtedly he had bene to be reiected and vnworthy to be receiued But seeing that he is the Image of God he is to be honored and worthy to be admitted For euen so euery Image is holy that is made in the name of God be it an Image of the Angels or of the Prophetes or of the Apostles or of the Martyrs or of other iust persons Reply now vpon this answere if it be so vnapt and prosecute the former trifling obiection Neither againe is it the Councell which citeth that verse of the Psalme of hearing seing but a Deacon called Epiphanius Actio◠tom 1. readeth to the Councell a confutation that he him selfe as it séemeth made for Images against the booke of the Image breakers Synode and therein hauing shewed that the tradition of the Church alwaies vsed to paint Christes life as well as to reade the Gospell of it he descanteth by and by thereon both out of true Philosophie how that reading by the eare and painting by the eie ingender in the minde Vnam cognitionem qua ad recordationem rerū gestarum peruenitur One knowing wherby to come in remēbrance of the actes them selues also out of diuine scripture a Can◠where the bride desireth to see the face of her bridegrome not only to heare his voice where also we sing out of the b Psa◠Psalme As we haue heard so also haue we seen To this purpose he citeth those texts not to shew how God must be knowē as you pretēd but About the storie of Christes Manhood and mercifull actes therof neither to proue immediatly that the said storie must be painted but to declare that whereas it must be remembred the Church therfore hath done conueniently alwayes both to reade it and to paint it because both these together tend to one remembrance What is here for Momus to carpe or cauill at Let vs sée what more he hath of this sort for false interpretation of Scripture Beside these I will bring you saith he a sentence of holy Scripture not onely falsely interpreted in sence but also falsified in wordes and concerning not a small matter but euen one of the chiefe articles of our faith This ensample shall be a knocker I trow and without all redemption manifestly against some article of faith Let vs heare it then It is written in the .10 Chapter of the Gospell after S. Iohn the .29 verse My father which gaue them vnto me speaking of his sheepe is greater then all Cap. 2. This sentence hath the Councell of Laterane holden vnder Pope Innocent the third where were present 70. Metropolitanes 400. Bishops 12. Abbates and 800. Priors conuentualles in all .1300 Prelates falsified in wordes after this maner Pater quod dedit mihi maius est omnibus that is That which the father hath geuen me is greater then all This sentence they alleage to proue that God the father begetting his Sonne from euerlasting gaue his owne substance vnto him Why is that to proue a falsehood or the trueth your selfe séeme to haue confessed or no doubt you will confesse that it is to proue the trueth And yet what a doe you make about it for you say againe Goe your wayes now and perswade vs that your Church can not interprete any sentence of the Scripture falsely when the Laterane Councell which is your represented Church hath thus both falsified and falsely interpreted this Scripture And againe Perswade men that they may safely leane to the interpretation of your Churche when among a thousand and three hundred Prelates gathered Canonically in a Councell not one was founde that could espie such grosse abusing of the worde of God but let it passe in a Canon vnder the name of the whole Councell And yet once againe Perswade men that in all controuersies condemning of errors they must be reuealed by the determination of your Church when the Fathers of the Laterane Councell can not confute the error of Ioachim Abbot concerning the diuinitie of Christ but by falsifying and false interpreting of Scripture By this we may I thinke easily perswade the Reader that if you had in déede any matter against our Church you would both let vs heare it and also neuer haue done with it Why man here is no false determination any way nor no false interpretation in D. Allens sense and therfore also here is nothing to the purpose Yea I adde moreouer here is no false interpretation also in your owne sense that is to say no vnapt interpretation as
your selfe also will graunt supposing once the text to be as the Councell alleageth it And therfore of your two crimes you must strike out the one to wit false or vnapt interpretation and then all is about the other wherein you say no lesse then foure times that the Councell hath falsified the words of that text And what reason yea what colour haue you for that Is it not in the vulgar Latin translation verbatim as the Councell alleageth it And so is the Councell cleared of that crime also Will you now charge your copie and frame your accusation anew agaynst the translation as differing from the original that is from the Greke But afore you do so take my counsaile with you and be sure first that the Greke is so as you say For some Greke copies Cyr. ◠Ioan. Au. i◠10. tr◠Hila. li. 7. p◠medi◠Amb◠Spi. S◠li. 3. c◠of auncient also had euen as we haue as namely the copie which S. Cyrill being a Greke Doctor expoundeth And who can doubt but the copie also of our most auncient yea and most authentical Translator had euen as he translated Which also the most auncient Latine Doctors as S. Augustine by name S. Ambrose yea and S. Hilarie too did reade iump as we do And the Latines a) vi◠Amb◠Rom◠by reason should in this matter be better witnesses then the Grekes specially séeing such varietie among the Grekes also them selues for as much as the Arrians neuer raigned so nothing like in the Latine Church as they did in the Greke where they were to cancell to chaunge to corrupt what they would And so are you answered fully in euery side nor you only but Ioachim also him selfe if he would go about to make his vantage as you instruct him One text more corrupted by our Church as he sayth and then an ende These be his words Ar. 7◠How corrupt that Latine translation is which they would needes thrust vpon vs is sufficiently knowen to all learned men euen in such textes as are the most colourable places for the defence of Popishe doctrine I will giue one example for all They alleage the texte 1. Cor. 10. Qui stat videat ne cadat He that standeth let him take heede he fall not agaynst the certaintie of fayth Whereas the Greke hath not He that standeth Stande out of his light that the child may see but He that thinketh he standeth let him take heede he fall not Why man looke better in the text 1. Cor. 10. our translation is there not as you charge it but euen as you say the Greke to be Qui se existimat stare videat ne cadat And yet you inferre saying Thus the Popishe Church can not altogether excuse her selfe from corrupting the text of the Testament whether it was of fraude or of ignorance or of negligence the Lord knoweth This is your goodly substantiall stuffe that you haue against the Popish Church which maye séeme you well amongest the blinde that will néedes follow such blinde guides But vs that haue eyes how can you alienate from it with such geare yea could you more confirme vs in our liking of it then after this sort to bewray your selues that you haue no matter no substance yea no shadow of any thing agaynst it Well in the name of God bethinke your selues in time and humble your selues to your louing Mother this one onely Church of God In olde time it was the true Church as your selfe confesse and therefore if you had liued then you would not haue spurned agaynst it you would haue bene a good childe of it yea also though you thought it to erre How much more considering now you sée that it erred not as you thought it did Proue therefore that your heart meaneth as your tongue speaketh Proue it I say by yéelding to the same Church now which you see nowe no lesse yea muche more cleared from all errors in this answere to eche error that you haue charged it withall Or at leastwise let all other men as they loue their soules forethinke thē selues and ponder wel whether these obiections are like to be admitted of their Iudge the head husband of this Church for good pleas in that generall and most terrible Court day ¶ The seuenth Chapter That he hath no other shift agaynst our manifold Euidences so cleare they be but the name of Only Scripture as well about ech controuersie as also about the meaning of Scripture it selfe And how timerous he maketh vs and how bolde he beareth him selfe herevpon WHat shamefull confessions he hath bene fayne to make agaynst his owne side and for our side it hath here many ways in sundry chapters appeared already But the same will now againe appeare much more clerely if in this Chapter we runne ouer the cōmon Euidences of Christian truth out of which I framed my declaration in my bookes of Motiues and Demaundes and consider that he is fayne to confesse them al to be against him and therfore to take exception agaynst them and say that neither they nor any thing els that can be brought foorth is good euidence in such suites but Scripture alone and such Scripture also as is so playne and manifest for the matter that it can not by any subtiltie be auoyded of the aduersarie For he knoweth well pardy that we bring foorth not other euidences alone but Scripture also with them But the others he séeth to be so playne that there is no remedie vnlesse they be cancelled Mary from our Scriptures he hath an euasion as he thinketh to wrangle and say that they be not playne and euident for vs but so that he can wrest thē to an other meaning The first part How he excepteth by Onely Scripture against all other Euidences in the controuersies that are betwene vs. j. Against the rule to know heresie c. Well then let vs heare him speake in his owne words and first how he maketh his exception being charged many wayes with the crime of heresie Notable it is both to the confirmation of the Catholike and also to the conuersion of the Heretike to beholde how the more that he fluttereth to get out the more he wrappeth him selfe in the lime Ar. 44. First Authors As in my fourth demaund old heresies demaunde xxxviij Whereas you bragge saith he to D. Allen to note vnto vs euery one of our Capitaines by their names and the seuerall errors that they taught and the time and yere when they arose agaynst the former receiued truth Except you note vnto vs the Patriarkes Prophetes Apostles Euangelistes and Christ him self you shall neuer be able to performe that you promise For we teach nothing but the eternall truth of God Wherfore we refuse not to be counted heretikes if you can proue that we holde any one article of faith contrarie to the Scripture And immediatly You may perchaunce note the names of them that preaching the truth of our
doctrine against your receiued errors were accounted of the world so he tearmeth them whom he him selfe confesseth to haue bene the true Church for heretikes But you muste proue that their opinions are contrarie to the worde of God or else all your labour is in vayne Supra pag. 10. And for example more store the Reader may sée here in the third Chapter I will not dissemble saith he Aërius taught that prayer for the dead was vnprofitable as witnesseth both Epiphanius and Augustinus which they account for an error But neither of them both reproueth it by the Scripture Pur. 416. And the same againe in another place Nowe at the length commeth the author of this heresie by the testimonie of Epiphanius and Augustine But neither of them confuteth it by the Scriptures Pur. 426. And in an other place thus boldly For our parte it is sufficient that we knowe God in his holy word to be the first founder of our doctrine and therfore that they lye blasphemously which would make any heretike the author of it And therevpon he concludeth forsooth with great honestie saying Wherfore Ar. 44. if Aërius had not bene an Arrian this opinion could not haue made him an heretike Where to passe that blasphemie only this I say August ad quoduu in praef in epilogo that he séemeth not to know the purpose of S. Augustine in that booke De haeresibus ad quoduultdeum whiche he saith was likewise the purpose of Epiphanius not to coÌ„fute but only to report the heresies that had bene before his time and that not without great profite to the Reader Cum scire sufficiat c. because it is inough onely to know that the Catholike Churches iudgement is against these and that no man must receiue into his beliefe any one of these And agayne Multum adiuuat cor fidele c. It greatly helpeth the faithfull heart onely to know what must not be beleeued although he bee not able to confute it by disputing Loe then you faithfull heartes the case is so cleare Note â— seeke thâ— this conâ— of Fulkeâ— that the very aduersarie confesseth both that the same was the true Catholike Churche and also that it iudged Aerius to be an heretike helpe your selues therefore and make your profite of this confession assuring your selues vpon the Catholike Doctors lesson that séeing the Church was against Aerius the scripture could not be with him because one Spirit of truth speaketh both in the Church and in the Scripture As for Fulke and all that he here saith you sée it is no other then if Aerius Iouinianus or Vigilantius had said vnto you Aske my fellow whether I be a théefe Naught else it is that he there againe concludeth for those thrée heresiarkes saying Thus Ar 4â— you are not able to name any which preached any article of our doctrine but the same was consonant to the Scripture Of the same sort also in an other place Therefore M. Allen or Pur. 3â— S. Augustine rather if you will teach your Schollers to keepe vs at the baye as heretikes you must not teach them to bark and baule nothing but the Church the Church like tinkers curres O vvorâ— stimatioâ— he hath Church but you must instruct them to open cunningly out of the Scriptures how our doctrine is contrarie to the truth and yours agreeable to the same Againe like one that would appoint his enemie not to inuade him with a gunne because he knoweth not how to saue him selfe from the shotte of it but to take some other weapon that of his making in an other place he saith And especially in this controuersie Pur. 12 where either partie chargeth other with heresie howbeit I trow his partie chargeth not so S. Epiphanius S. Augustine though they so charge his Patriarke Aerius it had bene conuenient that the right definition or description of an heretike had bene first set downe that men might thereby haue learned who is iustly to be burdened with that crime For an heretike is he that in the Churche obstinately maintaineth an opinion that is contrarie to the doctrine of God conteined in the holy Scriptures which if any of vs can be proued to doe then let vs not be spared An herâ— a man in Church 〈◊〉 Fulk Fâ— a nobis 〈◊〉 Iohn Infra but condemned for Heretikes In déede if an Heretike be a man in the Churche you are cockesure and not only you and Aerius but Arrius Pelagius all other heretikes that euer were we rather with S. Augustine S. Epiphanius and such others in daunger To this place it belongeth that againe he sayeth Pur. 402. M. Allen giueth a speciall note that wee name not Iouinian or Vigilantius the playne auouchers of our opinions but rather labour to writh with plaine iniurie to the Author some sentence out of Augustine or Ambrose or some other that opened them selues to the world to beléeue the contrarie And thinketh we are ashamed of the other In deede if we depended vpon any mans authoritie or that any man or men were the Authors of our fayth wee should bee iniurious vnto them if we dyd not acknowledge our founders But seeing God him selfe is the Father of that doctrine which we haue receyued by his holy worde we are not ashamed of Vigilantius nor Berengarius when they agree therewith Onely the Canonicall Scriptures are the rule by which we iudge of all men and their writinges of all doctrine and the teachers thereof Pur. 409. Agayne And therefore it is but vayne bragging that you promyse to seeke out other Fathers of our perswasion then the Apostles of Christ by whose holy writinges we neuer refuse to be iudged For the Scripture is the onely high way to the truth with the guidance of Gods spirite And agayne You spend many wordes in vayne Pur. 412. to proâ—e that the first author of an opinion beyng found the opinion is found to be an heresie It shall bee graunted with all fauour but so that no man shall be counted the first author of an opinion that is able to proue his opinion out of the word of God And withall that whosoeuer is not able to proue by the word of God any opinion that he holdeth obstinately though he haue many authors before him yet he is neuerthelesse an Though iâ— be S. Augustine him selfe though he hold the foundation here cap. v. heretike And so much of their first authors founde out by vs as Aerius Iouinianus Vigilantius and such other old heresiarches condemned he confesseth by the true Church of Christ but contrarie he saith to the Scriptures of Christ Now on the other side being vrged by D. Allen to finde in like maner our first Authors or els it will follow the Apostles to be our authors Pur. 391. heare what he saieth therevnto Must we finde out the authors of your heresies nay iustifie them your selues by the word
of God if you can You shall not compell vs to tell you where when or how your heresie came in It chaufeth him that we shew so plaine an euidence against his side he can not shew the like against vs and therefore he is faine to flie againe to his cold exception of onely Scripture as though to iustifie our doctrine by the Apostles and that so sensibly were not ynough But most ridiculous of all it is to sée him come in with this exception where D. Allen alleaged TertulliaÌ„ for this rule Pur. 4 Ar. 42 That doctrine saith Fulke which is first agreable to Tertullians rule is vndoubtedly true and that which is later is false But how shall the first doctrine be knowen but by the word of God wherein all the doctrine of God is taught Tert. 〈…〉 praesc Tertullian there hath an other rule against such heresies as presumed Inserere se aetati Apostolicae To say that their founders liued in the Apostles time But this our rule he giueth against all such as rise any time after as Aerius Luther Caluin c. bidding vs then to coÌ„sider what was taught beléeued immediatly before they arose for the vndoubtedly is the truth and their later doctrine is falshood Now then how ridiculous is it for Fulke to run from Tertullians meaning yet to pretend that he agréeth to Tertullians Rule The same rule with an amplification also Antiq … Dem. in the same meaning doth likewise VinceÌ„tius LirineÌ„sis geue to wit If any Noueltie arise at any time yea preuaile so much afterward in processe of time as to make an vniuersall corruption so that almost no countrey of Christendome be frée froÌ„ it as this marchant boasteth at this day of the most of Europe EnglaÌ„d Scotland Ireland Ar. 3. Infra Dem. 〈…〉 FrauÌ„ce Germany Denmark Suetia Bohemia Polonia a great number also in Spaine Italy that then we looke vnto Antiquitie that is to the time before such noueltie preuailed before it arose as what was taught beléeued immediatly before Luther beganne these innouations And therefore alike ridiculous it is that he saieth We refuse not the rule of Vincentius Lirinensis Pur. 3â—… concerning Antiquitie so you can proue that it hath God to be the Author the Prophetes and Apostles As for witnesses vnder this antiquitie we passe not for them Why man The rule that you receaue proueth it The Apostles I say to be the Authors of our solemne prayer for the dead in the holy Masse and of any other such article because it hath such antiquitie as I haue now said and as Vincentius meant And so much vpoÌ„ the Rule of finding out the first authors of any doctrine and the same therefore to be hereticall or not finding them and the same therefore to be Apostolicall Whither is to be referred that Rule also of D. Allens that such as commonly by Christian people be named Heretikes Names dem 7.8 alwayes proue in the ende to be heretikes in deede notwithstanding their craking of Gods word Wherevnto Fulkes exception is the selfe same againe saying Ar. 65. The true Christians at this day being of the Papistes which after a sort are named Christians called heretikes and in reproche Protestantes and Caluinistes in that their faith agreeth with the word of God proue themselues in deede to be true Christians and no heretikes ij Against the Apostles Traditions TraditioÌ„s Dem. 29. Pur. 362. Now let vs heare how he maketh his saide exception also against the Traditions of the Apostles Thus he speaketh M. Allen referreth the institution of Prayer and Sacrifice for the dead to the tradition of the Apostles Of whom will he be afeard to lye when he fathereth such a blasphemie vpon the Apostles Soft man be good to D. Allen for their sakes that followe For you your selfe goe forward in the same place and say But who is witnesse that this is the tradition of the Apostles Tertullian Cyprian Augustine Ieronym and a great many more This you could not and therfore doe not deny but come in with your stale exception saying But if it be lawfull for me once to pose the Papistes I would learne why the Lorde woulde not haue this doubtlesse institution plainely or at leastwise obscurely set forth by Mathew Marke Luke or Paule which all haue set forth the storie of the institution of the Sacrament If it were not meete at all to bee put in writyng why was it disclosed by Tertullian Cyprian Pur. 387. Augustine c Likewise in an other place If prayer for the deade was appoynted by the Apostles commaundement why is there neuer a worde thereof in their writinges If I were disposed to pose you this question woulde make you clawe your poll a hundred tymes before you coulde imagine any collourable aunswere for right aunswere you shall neuer be able to make In déede a doughtie question it is As though if a Christian can not answer euery why of the Infidel our Religion therfore is straight in hazard Ar. 48. It may trouble a wise maÌ„ to answer al the questions that a foole caÌ„ propound you say your self And yet neither you nor any other Infidell shall euer finde the learned to séeke It is for your religion to be to séeke of answers because it began but yesterday and is neither yet throughly shaped But the Catholike which is the only Christian Religion comming of God so many hundred yeres sithence continuing hath bene by our forefathers and the holy Ghost so sifted to our hands that the answere is alwayes ready afore the question be demaunded Briefly therfore S. Augustine one of our Masters and Doctors in Christ hath taught vs if we be posed about the Churches order in Baptisme to answere Au. dâ— op that Serie Traditionis scimus By the course of tradition we know what things are to be done therein although they be not expressed in the Scriptures and that for breuities sake So likewise being posed about the order of this other SacrameÌ„t to answere Quia multum erat c. Au. Eâ— ad Iaâ— cap. 6 Because it was much for the Apostle to signifie in his Epistle to the Corinthians the whole order of the action that the vniuersall Church through all the world obserued therefore hauing saide somewhat of the same Sacrament yea and as much as all the Euangelistes by and by he added And when I come 1. Cor I will prescribe the rest of the orders Vnde intelligi datur saith S. Augustine And thereby we may vnderstand that whatsoeuer is not varied in any varietie of vsages was of his prescribing This is our answere and you knew it partly before For you say I know the Papistes will flye to those words of the Apostle Pur. 3â— The rest I will set in order when I come And good reason S. Augustine teacheth vs so to do And what say you to him for it
cura I haue answered in the third Chapter Supra pag. 12. In his Confessions he is not vncertayne of the matter as you pretend but of the persons néede and that but of his mothers néede not also of his fathers as you say because she was so perfit a woman Euen as our faith also of the matter is most certayne though of our particular friendes state after their departure we be vncertayne For concerning the liuing also Iob. 1. was Iob vncertayne of the profitablenes of Sacrifice because earely in the morning he vsed to offer for his children after they had bene feasting together Dicebat enim ne forte peccauerint filij mei For he said lest peraduenture my children haue sinned And touching S. Chrysostome whom you thinke so very a childe to forget him selfe so soone your selfe in déede a very childe for so thinking He there speaketh first of a) For such as die vnreconciled them Qui cum peccatis suis hinc abscedunt Which go hence with their sinnes and saith that they can not be holpen after their death Then he speaketh b) For Catholikes that be rich of them Who are departed in the faith but yet being rich they did not procure by their riches any comfort to their owne soules To these we that are their friends may with our riches prayers procure some helpe but litle in respect of that they might haue procured them selues So saith he He speaketh in such a comparison Neither is the Apostolike Memento within his comparison although it might haue bene well inough For although by it come much commoditie much vtilitie to the dead yet nothing so much when it is procured by their friends as when it is procured by them selues specially because a mans owne works are also meritorious of euerlasting rewarde so are not his friendes workes they are not meritorious vnto him at all no nor so satisfactorious of temporall paine as his owne nothing like iij. Against the Churches authoritie And so much of the Apostles and their Traditions Authoritie Dem. 34. Diuine seruice Dem. 22. Pur. 264. You shall now heare him make the same exception against the Churches Practise and Iudgement But admit saith he that the Church of God in Tertullians time vsed prayers and oblations for the dead Let vs consider vpon what ground they were vsed Tertullian himselfe shall say for me that the same custome with many other which he there rehearseth as comming from the Apostles hath no ground in the holy Scripture It is good to take that which is so frankely geuen and more is Tertullian to be commended that confesseth the ground of his error not to be taken out of the word of God then they that labour to wrest the Scriptures to finde that which Tertullian confesseth is not to be found in them You are hastie to take it but Tertullian doth not geue it as I haue plainely shewed you in the third Chapter Supra pa. 2 diui 3. Againe he excepteth against the Churches Practise in her Liturgie or Masse and saith We haue with more honestie refourmed our Liturgie according to the word of God then Gregorie Pur. 371. Basil Chrysostome or whosoeuer were authors of those Liturgies did leaue the auncient Liturgies that were vsed in the Church before their time and forge them new of their owne contrary to the word of God we neither refuse the Latine Church while it was pure nor receiue the East Church wherin it was corrupt But the Scripture is a rule vnto vs to iudge all Churches by And yet that we may not thinke him a coward he saith else where to D. Allen. But to follow you at the heeles as farre as you dare goe Pur. 349. I will agree with S. Augustines Rule quod legem credendi lex statuit supplicandi the order of the Churches prayer is euer a plaine prescription to all the faithfull what to beléeue so saieth S. Augustine and so doth D Allen alleage it but because Fulke could not make his florish with that end forward he turneth the staffe as though S. Augustine and D. Allen had said Falsification by changing that the law of beleeuing should make a law of praying And then he bestirreth him selfe like a man and addeth of his owne But faith if it be true hath no other ground but the word of God Therfore prayer if it proued of true faith hath no other Rule to frame it by but the worde of God And by and by after Which rule of onely Scripture if Augustine had diligently followed in examining the common error of his time Of prayer for the dead at that time he would not so * O videns blindly haue defended that which by holy Scripture he was not able to maintaine And no lesse bold he is with the Practise commended euen in the Canonicall Scripture it selfe Seeing this fact of Iudas Machabaeus Pur. 210. hath no commauÌ„dement in the Law it is so farre of that it is to be draweÌ„ into example that we may be bold to condemne it for sinne and disobedience Now concerning the iudgement of the Churche he excepteth against it likewise Ar. 86. saying As for doubtes that arise by difficultie of Scripture or contention of heresie they must be resolued and determyned onely by Scriptures For there is neuer aâ— cause heretikeâ— make dâ—â—bt of the Church this heretike vvill that no Christian leane vnto it heresie but there is as great doubt of the Churche as of the matter in question Onely the Scripture is the stay of a Christian mannes conscience As though that heresies neuer made doubt of the scriptures also eyther of all or of some péece namely your selues now of the Machabées And expressely against his owne Churche he maketh the same exception Ar. 58. saying And the Protestantes in Europe will also be ruled by their Superiors so farre as their Superiors are ruled by Gods word Againe Among the Protestantes to the Church of Saxonie humbly affected is the Churche of Denmarke to the Church of Heluetia the Church of Fraunce to the Church of England the Church of Scotland But so that none of these allow any consent or submission but to the truth which must be tried onely by Gods word With that but so you will consent I trow to Iackstrawe also and therefore it is a marueilous humble affection that your Churches haue one to an other Anno. 1. Elizab. Your owne Churche of England in generall Parliament was then much to blame to enact foure Rules for condemning of heresie First if it were against Canonicall Scripture SecoÌ„dly if it were against the first .4 Generall Councels or against any one of theÌ„ Thirdly if against any other general CouÌ„cel also but the with your acception to wit so far as the said Councell followed the line of Scripture and fourthly simpliciter whatsoeuer this high Court of Parliament shall adiudge to be heresie You notwithstanding haue written
blinde presumption to search the meaning of the Scriptures onely out of the Scriptures without the commentaries of the Doctors but not also I trow without the Commentaries of Caluine and such like companions thus he saith Pur. 407. And happy be those which not regarding the streames of waters that runne through the vaynes of earth but seeking to the onely fountayne of heauenly truth conteined in the holy Scriptures haue certaine comfort of saluation Pur. 285. And againe to the same purpose Surely as the Sunne is not obscured with the dust that a Cock casteth vp when he scrapeth on the dunghill The Doctors vvritings a dunghill no more is the Sonne of righteousnesse or the light of his holy worde darkened by all the myste of mens deuises which Allen or his complices can rayse out of the whole heape of superstition and error to deface the glory of his Church The worde of the Lord is a light vnto our steppes and therefore we will not walke in the darknes of mens traditions Our doctrine shall one day be tried before God and therefore we make no account how we be iudged by mans day 1. Cor. 4. So properly he vttereth his presumption in the words that the Apostle clene contrarie did speake in excéeding great feare It foloweth Your way is your owne way not the way of the Lord and because you take another way vnto saluation then the onely right waye Iesus Christ therfore by his owne sentence you are al theeues and murderers Hath any séene a man so drunken so blinded with pride Well then in the other place of searching the meaning out of the Scriptures them selues alone and neglecting the receaued Expositors what saieth he Whether the old Doctors be more like to vnderstand the Scriptures then the Protestāts Pur. 434. I haue answered before we will make no comparison with them Modestly spoken a man would thinke but what followeth Neither will we chalenge the likelihood to vs neither will we leaue it to them I mary hold your owne we pray you And why so For whether soeuer we doe we shall be neuer the more certaine of the trueth You say true for so much as concerneth your selues For in déede no certaintie of trueth but most certaine certaintie of error in your vnderstanding But in what so euer the Doctors doe agrée who so expoundeth the Scripture vnto that shall be euer most certaine of the truth which is ynough though not alwayes certaine of that same very places meaning as in the sixt Chapter I declared more at large Forth now a Gods name Supra cap. 6. par 2. But this will we set downe as a most certaine principle that no man can vnderstand the Scriptures but by the same Spirite by which they were written The meaning of some place one may attaine vnto which hath not that Spirit but to vnderstand them alwayes agréeably to the truth can not be without that same Spirit Forth againe What then shall we arrogate the Spirit as proper to vs and denye it to them God forbid They had their measure of Gods spirit and so haue we Hereof ariseth an obiection How then is the Spirit of God contrarie to it selfe because they and we agree not in all thinges He answereth God forbid Cyprian and Cornelius were both endued with Gods Spirit yet they agreed not both in one interpretation nor iudgement of the scripture Yea Syr Cyprian as he was of Cornelius his Spirit so was he likewise of Cornelius his iudgement implicitè as we tearme it though explicite he were of an other of an erronius iudgemēt and that according to his owne humane spirit and not according to Gods Spirit As at this day likewise and alwayes whensoeuer any Catholike man of ignoraunce erreth expressely yet notwithstanding in effect he is of the trueth with the other Catholikes which erre not because he quietly continueth in vnitie with them nor doth not obstinatly holde his owne error against them Now whether the case be so betwene the olde Doctors and you briefly and manifestly it is declared by this that neither you at this time will be refourmed by them nor they in their time would be refourmed by your forefathers Aerius Iouinianus and such like But now that you haue abrogated the vnderstanding of the Scriptures from Gods spirite both in the Doctors and in your selues say on and tell vs your aduise What then there remayneth but this seconde principle as certayne as the first That the Spirite of God hath a meaning in the Scriptures which is not to be sought out of the Scriptures in the opinions of deceiuable men but only in the Scriptures where is nothing but the spirite of truth No syr why suppose those men were the Apostles them selues or any other hauing the same spirite of trueth that the Apostles first had but of that ynough before foorth therefore Therefore that the spirite may declare his owne meaning Ar. 86. one place of Scripture must be expounded by an other for the hard places of Scripture must be opened by easie places all other ordinary meanes and helpes of wit learning knowledge of tongs diligence in hearing reading and praying are subordinate and seruing to this search and triall And is this way so sure and certayne I mary For who soeuer obserueth this search and triall most precisely shall come to the knowledge of the trueth most certaynly And may he not trust an other which hath so precisely obserued it as for example the Protestantes me thinkes as your selfe or M. Caluine c. but I crie you mercy you meant not them Well then may he not trust the olde Fathers therein A comfortable doctrine for the ignorant forsooth or did not they obserue it diligently No for who so euer is negligent in this search and tryall though he haue otherwise neuer so many and excellent graces and giftes may easily be deceiued yea you speake nowe a great worde euen when he thinketh he followeth the authoritie of the Scriptures Which search if the auncient Fathers had alwayes followed they should not so lightly haue passed ouer some thinges as to condemne the Protestantes in Aerius and Vigilantius c. and other thinges so slenderly haue mainteined as the doctrine of the Papistes Well then I sée all is in a mans owne diligence to trust no man nor men but to reade the Scriptures conferre the places and so gather the meaning by him selfe this is your most certen way I must therefore tell you a litle of our diligence therin that you may certifie vs whether it be ynough or no. and the rather because you exhort our master D. Allen and say to him Pur. 9. Trye the rule of the Protestantes and search the worde of God in the holy Scriptures and then vndoubtedly you shall finde the trueth and the Church also that is the pillar of trueth And againe Ar. 62. Who haue the trueth you must search in the
we may note the cause that moueth him to say that our Churche refuseth the Scriptures as if he should say that we refuse faith because we refuse only faith or that any man refuseth his owne best euidence because he will not at the instance of his aduersarie renounce all his other euidences be they neuer so many neuer so good neuer so well tried and so much vsed by his auncetors also most agreable euery one of them to his foresaid best euidence Ar. 85. He saith moreouer She hath nothing lesse then the true sense of Gods word which submitteth the same to her owne iudgemēt Ar. 107. Againe The Popish Church so manifestly dissenteth from the word of truth that she dare not be iudged thereby but most blasphemously submitteth the same to her owne iudgement Againe In the Popish Church Gods word is made subiect to mens determinations and authorities And againe Pur. 219. By which it is manifest that you do reiect the whole authoritie of all the Canonicall Scriptures when you affirme that no booke of holy Scripture is Canonicall but so farre foorth as your Church will allowe it Moreouer when you will not admit any sense of the Scripture but such as your Church will allow Here are two other causes of the same againe As if he would say that the Apostles in their time or the Church then Note vvhiche is this Popishe Church submitted and made subiect the Scriptures to men most blasphemously and onely of their owne will 2. Pet. 3. because they tooke vpon them to iudge of the true sense and namely S. Peter for saying that the vnlearned him selfe being but a fisherman and the vnstable do misconster S. Paules Epistles sicut caeteras Scripturas as also the other Scriptures to their owne damnation And againe as though the same Apostles and the Church after them manifestly reiected the whole authoritie of all the Canonicall Scriptures Canonicall did al only of their owne will because they made a Canon or Canons as all the lawes of the Church are called Canons wherof the saide Scriptures were and are called Canonicall whervpon himselfe also counteth them as confirmed by the holy Ghost Well for these goodly causes he is bold to say that the Church of which Christ said generally If he will not heare the Church Mat. 18. count him for an heathen and a publican refuseth and reiecteth the Scriptures And againe to D. Allen Pur. 438. As for the euident word of God you shame not to boast of that to be your triall which you dare as well eate a fagot as abide the iudgement of it in any lawfull conference or disputation Your great belwethers and bishops declared before the whole world in the conferēce of Westminster what they durst abide when they came to handstrokes It is a gay matter for such a chattering Pye as you are to make a fond florish a farre off in words to please your patrons and exhibitioners it is an other thing to stand to the proofe in deede And againe to him Pur. 346. Where as you wish that Bedes historie were made familiar vnto all English men they were better to consider the word of God and the historie of the Actes of the Apostles Which if you durst abide the triall thereof you would exhort men to reade it at least wise that vnderstand Latin And if you were as zelous to set forth the glory of God as you are to mainteine your owne traditions one or other of you which haue so long found fault with our translations of the Scriptures would haue taken paynes to translate them truely your selues as well as to translate Bedes booke You say the disputation at Westminster Anno 1. Elizab. was before the whole world as one that care not what you say which you declare again in speaking of D. Allens exhibitioners and his pleasing of them a thing wherof you know nothing nor as I think no body els vnles some body may know that which is not He is rather him selfe the Exhibitioner of our whole countrey like an other Ioseph and might be yours also if you were happy How much more iustly then may we say that the Councell of Trent was holden before the whole world And what conference will you admitte for lawfull on our part when as you refused to come to that assembly at Trent béeing yet so earnestly so safely and so honorably inuited thither as the Safeconduites extant in the Actes of the Councell do witnesse together with the very experience also of those fewe petites of Germanie that came thither Or what conference shall on your parte be thought iniquous and vniust towardes vs when you shame not to extoll that mocke conference of Westminster A fourefolde offer Well because you chalenge vs to a disputation and are suffered to set it forth in print heare what I will say vnto you The Councell of Trent counted you their subiectes as muche as you counte vs the subiectes of Englande and the state there is of all Catholike Princes graunted to be farre preeminent Do you therefore procure vs a safeconduite from the Courte in suche fourme as the Councell gaue it to you and certayne of vs will in the name of God come in be the daunger to our liues otherwise neuer so great and for the glory of God in the victorie of his trueth we will ioyne with you in any conference that shall be prescribed according to the common lawes of a Conference Sée in my .xix. Demaunde which is of Kinges what I said to this effect before I knew of this your chalenge Sée likewise of the same in my first Demaund which is of olde Conference at Carthage betwixte the Catholikes and the Donatistes about the true Churche which the Scriptures commende vnto vs Whereof I shall haue occasion to say more in the tenth Chapter If to reiect this offer the Gouernours by your procurement or of their owne mindes will stand vpon their poyntes wheras we séeing the cause is Gods cause are content not to stand vpon our liues to saue your soules and to redéeme the vnmercifull vexation and intollerable persecution of our brethren ouer all that Realme whom your Bishops and other Commissioners do oppose with heauy yrons and bouchers axes sorer then you can oppose vs or the learned of them with Scriptures Do you syr at the least wise for your owne credits sake take your pen in hand and ioyne with me vpon that same Collatio Carthaginensis in such maner as I haue briefly required in my said first Demaund Or if you dare not do that neither for al your crakes thirdly I require you to send to vs some of your fellows or schollers such as will behaue them selues quietly and modestly other safeconduite they shall not néede as diuers of your side haue already at sundry times partely of their owne heades partely at their priuate friendes motion come hither and founde all safe
onely by Scriptures it would not follow thereof that no other argumentes are good ynough agaynst Iewes and Heretikes Now to the places alleaged in your other booke Other perswasion say you then suche as is grounded vpon the hearing of Gods worde Pur. 6. will neuer of Christians be counted for true beliefe so long as the tenth Chapter to the Romanes remayneth in the Canon of the Bible S. Paule there saith that hearing is presupposed to beléeuing and agayne to hearing is presupposed the worde of God But in what sorte the worde of God onely in writing doth he not there expresse that by the worde of God he meaneth preaching and preaching of suche as be Sent for that which he saith in one place Hearing is of Gods worde the same he saith afore How shall they heare without preachers 1. Thes 2. And what is more common in the New Testament then to call the preaching of Gods messengers the worde of God Euen as we to this day count it the worde of God which we heare of the Church of God either in her Councels or in her Doctors or any other way for so said God to them He that heareth you Luc. 10. heareth me And so S. Paul said to the Galathians If any man preach vnto you any other Gospell Gal. 1. then that which we haue preached vnto you and which you haue receiued holde him for accursed He speaketh of preaching and you alleage it as spoken of writing and of onely writing For thus you say to vs It vexeth you at the very harte Pur. 449.163 that we require the authoritie of the holy Scriptures to confirme your doctrine hauing a playne commaundement out of the word of God that if any man teache otherwise then the word of God alloweth he is to be accursed No syr it rather reioyceth vs at the heart to see that this very same texte which you Falsification by chaunging corrupte is so playne a warrant to our brethren the Romaines accursing your masters Luther and Caluine for preaching an other Gospell Act. 28. then that which S. Paule preached to the saide Romaines and which they receyued of him the Scripture also testifying in other places Mat. 28. Act. 20. Rom. 15. that S. Paule and the other Apostles taught the Romaines and other Churches all things but not likewise that he or they wrote all whiche they taught neither againe that in suche things as they wrote the Churches alwayes should be required to bring forth their writing not otherwise to be credited although they alleaged their preaching or tradition by worde of mouth Whereby you perceiue that your conclusion foloweth not though it were true that you bring out of another place saying All good workes are taught by the Scriptures Pur. 410. it is S Paules 2. Tim. 3. the holy Scriptures are hable to make the man of God perfect and prepared to all good workes Suppose this to be S. Paules saying will you conclude therof that Timothie himselfe commending any thing for a good worke and saying that he had it of S. Paules owne mouth where he had all things should not be credited but néedes he must proue the same by Scripture We say all good works were taught the Church by the Apostles speaking and that saying doth not take away the Apostles writing Euen so if all good workes were taught in the Apostles writing that taketh not away suche argumentes as are made vpon their speaking As agayne if a certayne article be confessed to be taught in S. Paules Epistles or also if all Articles for so your words pretende here in the last Chapter will it not suffice for all that to proue any article out of some other booke of Scripture What a fonde reasoning is this that because one euidence proueth all therfore I can not haue any other euidence but that onely And this I say supposing that S. Paule had said as you make him All good workes are taught by the Scriptures c. But nowe I say further that he doth not say so but being now at the point of martyrdome he exhorteth his Disciple not to faynt but to fulfill his office to the ende as he had done the office I say of an Euangelist or Preacher 2. Tim. 4. saying that although he should nowe be depriued of his master yet he had still the holy Scriptures with him which be profitable saith he to teaching of truth 2. Tim. 3. to disprouing of falshood to correcting of vices to instructing in righteousnes that the man of God that is the Euangelist be perfite that is to say furnished to euery good worke meaning thereby those foresaid workes of an Euangelist as he also there had said 1. Tim. 3. he that desireth a Bishops office desireth a good worke Now it is one thing the Scripture to be profitable to this and another thing to be able or sufficient vnto it Agayne it is one thing the Scripture to be profitable to euery parte of preaching and another thing the Scripture to teach expresly all good workes in euery particular as Oblations for the dead for of that you speake and so forth Pur. 434. Moreouer you alleage these two places Search the Scriptures and Trie the spirites and these you alleage for Only Scripture to be required both in all questions and also in exposition of Scripture declaring thereby that you eyther know not or care not what nor how you alleage For where our Sauiour saith to the Iewes Iohn 5. Search the Scriptures for they it are which beare witnesse of me in the very same place he saith also vnto them And Iohn did beare witnesse to the trueth And againe My workes VVho euer alleaged Scripture more blindly or Miracles do beare witnesse of me that my Father sent me and that a greater witnesse then Iohn And againe Also my Father who sent me he hath giuen witnesse of me Likewise vpon your other place Trie the Spirites you say And the Spirites are not tried but by the Scriptures So you say 1. Iohn 4. Ar. 4. but your text doth not so say yea the Apostle S. Iohn saith there straight after By this we know a spirite or Prophet or teacher of trueth and a spirite of error Looke in the text man sée what is that whereof he saith by this whether it be by Onely Scripture or by some thing els Briefly Beleeue not euery spirit saith he but trie the spirites whether they be of God for then you may be bolde to beléeue them By this is knowen a spirite of God first in one particular which I passe ouer then in generall after this maner You my children you Romanes and other Catholikes be of God We Apostles and other Catholike teachers be of God And therefore He that knoweth God heareth vs and he that is not of God doth not heare vs. By this we know a spirite of trueth and a spirite of error or a false Prophet
there is no true Christian man that is voyde of Gods spirite for he that hath not the spirite of Christ is none of his Rom. 8. yet may euery true Christian erre and be deceaued in some thinges This your sophisme consisteth in speaking confusely of Gods spirite as though the gifte of it were alwayes but one whereas it is one in the whole Church and another in euery particular true Christian man For neither do we argue simply of Gods spirite but of Gods spirite so as it is the spirite of trueth and of all trueth Ioan. 14. My Father sayth our Comforter at the instante of his departure will giue you another Comforter to remayne with you for euer the Spirite of trueth And after in the same Sermon I haue yet many thinges to saye vnto you but you can not now carry them but when the Spirite of trueth commeth he will teache you all trueth This place we saye must néedes be vnderstoode of the whole Churche 1. Tim. 3. and of a gifte conuenient to make her as she is saide to be the Piller of trueth because it is euident that euery one member of the Churche by him selfe may erre and in that case néedeth no more but the Spirite of obedience to heare her whiche hath suche a Spirite or gifte that she can not erre And this is ynough to make that no damnation be by erring to them that are in Iesus Christ that is which haue his spirite Rom. 8. so that sayth he they walke not after the fleshe but after the spirite and namely in this case after this spirite of obedience as I haue said Thus muche by occasion though my purpose is not here neither to alleage places nor to defende the alleaged but onely to answere the enemies allegations Now that the Church may be diuorced his allegation is this The visible Church Ar 79. by Idolatrie and superstition may seperate her selfe from Christ and be refused of him as God speaketh by Esay to the Church of Ierusalem Cap. 1. How is the faythfull Citie become an harlot It was full of iudgement and iustice lodged therein but now they are murtherers Thy siluer is become drosse and thy wine is mixed with water Thy princes are rebellious and companions of théeues c. Euen so may he say to the Church of Rome May he forsooth but whether doth he say so vnto it or doth the Prophet say that he may you are too too ignorant in the Scriptures if you know not the difference herein betwene the Synagoge of the Iewes the Church of Christ to wit that the Synagoge with her Ierusalem might be should be diuorced but that the Church of Christ with her Ierusalem which is Rome if you haue any sight in the Actes of the Apostles should neuer nor neuer might nor may be diuorced but contrariwise should beginne in the faythfull Iewes being a very small number in respect and so call in all nations euen Plenitudinem gentium Rom. 11. Mat. 13. The fulnes of al nations fishing for that purpose in the wide Sea of this world continually without any intermission in so much that immediatly after that all Nations or Gentiles be entred in Omnis Israel saluus fiet All the Iewes euen their fulnes also shall be Christned in the end of the world To this place pertaineth this strange imagination of his and his fellowes that euen the Church of Christ it selfe should prepare the way to Antichrist inuenting forsooth or receyuing of others inuention all the superstitions all the errors all the heresies that haue bene or may be euen vnto playne defection Apostasie Whereas the cleane contrarie is most euident and notorious that the Church should and hath as the piller of trueth from time to time accursed and commaunded vs to accurse all the heresies that haue bene yea and with due animaduersion noted vnto vs al errors whatsoeuer of her owne Doctors also who them selues sometime and in some things some of them haue erred as men Therfore against this most certayne cleare truth what alleageth these Heretikes for their most fonde and most absurde imagination aforesaid Diuinitie vvithout Scripture It is the totall summe of all their newe Diuinitie yet no warrant at all haue they for it out of Scripture Ar. 35. Many abuses and corruptions saith Fulke were entred into the Church of Christ immediatly after the Apostles time which the diuel planted as a preparatiue for his eldest sonne Antichrist But let vs heare your Scripture for it Ar. 38. The Scripture telleth vs sayth he that the mysterie of iniquitie preparing for the * Generall is your vvâ—rd noâ— S. Paules Generall defection Reuelation of Antichrist wrought euen in S. Paules time 2. Thes 2. But doth the Scripture tell you that it wrought in the Church of Christ No word so It wrought in the Persecutors of the Church of Christ and in the sundry Seducers that arose agaynst the doctrine of Christes Church as now it worketh in your Heresie béeing as it shall appeare anone the very next and vltima or at the least penultima Mysticall working before the Reuelation it selfe Next of all what haue you for this that the Church of Christ is always a contemptible companie D. Allens Demaund was Ar. 8â— Let the aduersarie shew that Christes onely kingdome should become so contemptible You alleage certayne places for answere and conclude vpon them saying So that the Church in the sight of the world hath alwayes bene most base and contemptible though in the sight of God and his Saintes 1. Cor. 1. Gal. 6. Rom. 1. most glorious and honorable Alwayes you say but your places import not alwayes Some of them conteine that her Crosse and her Crucifixus are condemned of the world that is of the Infidels But that may be and yet the Church not be in their sight a contemptible companie Euen as we Christians contemne the Turkes Mahometane Religion and the old Romaines Pagane religion for one of their goddes was a goose yet no man I trow will say they were or these are now a base and contemptible coÌ„panie An other of your places is this You shall be hated of all men for my names sake Mat. 10. As though it must néedes be alwayes a base contemptible companie which is hated of all sorts of men or euen then also when it is so hated Doth it séeme vnto you that it was of contempt that the Romane tyrantes so persecuted the Romane Bishops and their Christian flocke so vehemently all the first 300. yeres Cyp. epist 52. n. 3. Haue you not read what S. Cyprian writeth of Decius the Emperour Multo patientius tolerabilius audiebat leuari aduersus se aemulum principem quà m constitui Romae Dei Sacerdotem To heare that an Emperour was set vp against him that sought his Crowne he was much more patient then that in Fabianus place whom he had martyred another should
fulfilled that which was reuealed to S. Iohn in the twelfth of the Apocalipse The woman clothed with the sunne which you your selfe confesse to be the Church was so persecuted by the Dragon that she fledde into the wildernesse there to remayne * Idem etiam Ar. xxvij narrovvly persecuted of the Romish Antichrist for a long season a long season So farre printed by you in the letter of the Scripture A world to sée your bolde blindnes You do so apply this prophecie onely because of the Popes Primacie which yet is a truth of the Gospell practised also notoriously in all ages as well afore Bonifacius the third as after him which two poyntes the Reader may sée euidently in the Seuenth booke of M. D. Saunders Monarchie yea by your selfe also confessed before the said Bonifacius and the Church the true Church notwithstanding your wordes I reported in the 3. Chapter Supra pag. yea moreouer your owne selfe do say Articulorum pagina 38 that All nations neuer consented to the doctrine of the Papistes for the Greeke Church and other orientall Churches neuer receiued the Popish Religion in many chiefe pointes and especially in acknowledging the Popes authoritie cleane contrarie to that which both the Scripture and also your selfe do hold of Antichrist and of his vniuersall exaltation as I shall lay your wordes together in the 11. Chapter amongest your other grosse contradictions And therefore you can not for the Popes authoritie so expound this prophecie As for that Summe of money you tell vs not what author you followe therein neither is the thing material vnlesse you wil condemne your owne side also of Antichristianisme for their infinite contributions to mainteine these Rebellions euery where whiche you call your Gospell But O Syr I pray you I thought séeing your goodly promises in the last Chapter that to finde out the meaning of a text of Scripture you would haue brought vs nothing but Scripture and so cleare Scripture that by no suttletie it might be auoyded Howe is it then that nowe you bring nothing but your owne conceites Yea furthermore how is it that to make a shewe of a texte which you saw not to be with you but playne against you you corrupt the text For by your opinion Antichrist raigned in the world and the Church continued in the wildernes Ar. 36.79 The time of the Churches being in the vvildernesse the space of 807. yeres from the yere .607 the time of Bonifacius the third to the yere 1414. béeing the time of the Constance Councell and of Iohn Hus your supposed great Grandfather All this while you say Christ hath preserued her now to bring her out of her secret place in the wildernesse into the open sight of the world agayne And therefore you make the text to say here before that being persecuted by the Dragon she fled into the wildernes Falsification most detestable there to remayne a long season But the text hath the cleane contrary a very short season to wit but thrée yeres and a halfe These are the words truely reported as Catholikes are wout to do And the woman fugiebat Apoc. 12. fled into the wildernes where she had a place prepared of God that they may there feede her 1260. dayes And the same againe a litle after And to the woman were geuen two wings of a great Eagle Vt volaret that she might flye whether this be flying in body as you say or in mind as I say into the wildernes vnto her place where she is fedde one time and two times and halfe a time from the face of the Serpent Where is now your long season your 807. yeres VVhether Antichrist should come An. 607. Apoc. 12. Your folly will agayne be manifest if I report the truth of the Dragons persecution because you make it to haue bene in the time of Bonifacius An. 607. But what saith the Scripture First that great Dragon is the olde Serpent called the Diuel and Satan the Seducer of the whole world But Christ in consideration of his passion then at hande and the conuersion of the world immediatly ensuing therevpon saide of him Now is the iudgement of the world Ioan. 12. Mat. 12. now shall the prince of this worlde be expelled And the same in the Apocalypse in these moste euident wordes Apoc. 12. And he tooke the Dragon and he bounde him the space of a thousande yeres and he cast him into the bottomlesse pitte and he shutte and sealed vpon him that he should no more deceiue the Nations or the Gentiles vntill the thousande yeres were consummate So expresly to confounde you vtterly with your impious Gospell of Caluenisme who set the loosing of the Dragon the comming of Antichrist his persecution and the Churches desolation which all do go together at the yere 607. The time of Antichristes raigning It followeth as expresly And after this he must be loosed modico tempore for a litle season And the same agayne And when the thousande yeres be consummate Satan shall be loosed out of his prison and he shall goe foorth and shall seduce the Nations which are vpon the foure corners of the earth Gog and Magog and shall gather them vnto battayle whose number is as the sande of the sea And they ascended vpon the latitude of the earth and compassed rounde the campe of the Holy ones and the Citie beloued But all in vayne and to their owne destruction for Fire descended from God out of heauen and deuoured them and the diuell who seduced them was caste into the lake of fire and brimstone where also the Beast that is Antichrist and his notable falseprophet shal be tormented day and night for euer and euer That which the Apocalypse here calleth Consummation The consummation of the thousand yeres the Gospell that no man be deceiued calleth it Consummationē seculi The consummation of the world Mat. 24. Mar. 13. and meaneth thereby that Modicum tempus litle season aforesaid For so the Apostles asking our Sauiour What signe shall there be of thy comming and the consummation of the world He answereth and telleth them of sundry things which must be Sed nondum est finis but the consummation notwithstanding is not yet What then Mary This Gospell of the kingdome shall be preached in the vniuersall world for witnesse to all Nations Et tunc veniet consummatio and then shal come the consummation And in the short season of the consummation what shal be Tribulatio magna and Seductio magna So great a persecution and so great a Seducing that the Elect also would not be saued but that for their sakes Breuiabuntur dies illi Those dayes shall be shorter then any man would thinke it possible séeing the Persecutors greatnes onely thrée yeres and a halfe Statim autem post tribulationem dierum illorum And straight after the persecution of those short dayes there shall be maruailous alterations in the heauens
places of the Old Law saying Pur. 455. What law was appoynted touching lamenting for the dead you may reade Leuit. 21. how the Priest was forbidden to lament for any but speciall persons Also Num. 19. Diuerse ordinances concerning the dead yet neuer any sacrifice or prayer for the dead With like reason you might conclude vpon the same places that the dead should not be buried because in these places no mention is made thereof and againe of sundrie other places Leuit. 15. where the people are bidde to keepe them selues warily from diuerse contaminations of them selues by towching certaine persons aliue that therefore in the same places they are forbidden to pray for the saide persons aliue and namely during the cause of such contamination as for a man or woman whose séede or flowers runneth You suppose ignorantly that in those places orders are giuen what shall be done for the dead but it is not so onely it is decréed that whosoeuer entreth the tabernacle or house of him that is there departed shal be contaminate or vncleane after the Mosaicall maner and that the high priest shall not enter to any such at all nor other priests but to certayne What maketh this agaynst doing ought for the soule of the dead in other places and specially in the holy place As when againe you say Pur. 456. When Nadab and Abihu were slayne their father and brethren were forbidden to mourne for them the people were permitted By all which it appeareth that no Sacrifice for the dead was offered As though holy Sacrificing were as vnfit for the Priest as prophane mourning And as though this speciall case were a generall rule whereas Leuit. 21. it is expresly said to the Priestes that they may be contaminated which with you is mourning vpon their brother notwithstanding that for the plague of their two brethren Nadab and Abihu they might not in some maner mourne From the particuler places of the Law I come now with you to the whole Law thus according to your good Logike you conclude negatiuely therevpon Pur. 455. All lawfull sacrifices were prescribed by the Law Sacrifice for the dead was not prescribed by the Law Therfore it was no lawfull Sacrifice A séely argument was made by Grindall which D. Allen there returneth vpon him and in this fourme here rehearsed you go about to better it The answere still is Infra ca. 12. num as it was before by returning it vpon your selfe All lawfull Sacrifices to wit these foure in generall Holocaustum pro peccato hostia oblatio as the Psalmist and the Apostle do gather the summe were prescribed by the Law Sacrifice for the dead is one of those foure to wit pro peccato for sinne Therfore Sacrifice for the dead was prescribed by the law To this you would make a reply and therefore you correct your Maior with an addition and say that not onely all lawfull Sacrifices were prescribed by the law but also with peculiar mentioning and playne rehearsing of all such persons for whom Sacrifice was to be offered both men women the princes and the priuate persons the priest and the whole congregation yea and speciall regard of the oblations of the poore as may be seene Leuit 4.5.12.15 But because all these persons are founde in the dead as well as in the liuing your addition reacheth yet farther saying And in the peculiar rehearsing of diuers kind of persons and the fourme of the Sacrifice named according to euery particular state it is so farre off that the dead shall be reckned that such things are enioyned euery of these particular persons to do as it is playne that none but the liuing could offer or haue Sacrifice offered for them And in confidence of this addition Iesu how you befoole D. Allen And yet it conteineth this grosse absurditie which you saw not that none could offer or haue Sacrifice offered for them but onely such as were both liuing and also present in the place yea also able to do by thē selues those things enioyned and moreouer that none might offer for their friendes or for any other but for them selues only And what place is then left for offering for their children for the sicke at home for their brethren in other countreys captiue or pilgrimes for the kings and cities of the world vncircumcised for diuers other sortes for which there was offering as partly in other places is expressed partly may easily be proued And therefore all this adoe concludeth nothing against Sacrifice for the dead although it coulde not be proued much lesse considering that it is in an other place so playnly expressed For the fact of Iudas Machabeus putteth all out of doubt say we though you say that he therein transgressed the law But your proofe thereof is yet to be made vnlesse this proue it that you say It is like that Iudas Machabeus Pur. 456. if he deuised not that Sacrifice of his owne head yet tooke by imitation of the Gentiles whose studies and practises the Author of that Storie confesseth were more frequented in those dayes among the Iewes then the preaching or keeping of the Law Why syr doth the Storie say that Iudas Macabeus was one of those gentilicall Iewes or that he ioyned with those Apostaticall priestes Yea doth it not plainely say that all his fighting was against the gentiles and against gentilizing and that he made his reformation by no Priestes but such as were Vnspotted in the law But of your ignorance in that Storie if no worse I must speake more in another place Infra ca. 12. Now to ende this part Let vs heare how you conclude of the whole Scripture Pur. 449. As it is no good Logike you say to conclude negatiuely of one place or booke of Scripture this is not conteined in it therefore it is not true as you haue hithervnto concluded So of the whole the argument is most inuincible that concludeth negatiuely thus All true doctrine is taught in the Scripture Purgatory is not taught in the Scripture therefore Purgatory is no true doctrine O inuincible argument The Maior is false and to all your textes for it I haue answered aboue Ca. isto p. 1 The Minor likewise is false for Purgatory is taught in the Machabees which is in the Canon of the true Church which you also confesse to be the true Church you knowe the (a) Infra pag. third Councell of Carthage and therefore it is Canonicall if any other Scripture be Canonicall It is taught likewise 1. Iohn 5. so playnely that you could not auoyde the place but by falling into this horrible absurditie That we may not pray for all men liuing as anone I shall report your wordes It is also taught specially agaynst you Syr Ioan. 11. for you say after your maner passing confidently Pur. 236. that Martha and Mary as the Scripture is manifest did not hope for any restitution of their brother Lazarus to his
his baptisme but he is all cleane I aske you then what if hée dye before he wash his féete He is cleane and therefore he shall not to hell as the vncleane Iudas Yet he is not so cleane but that he néeded more washing shall that then be quite omitted which so néeded and he to heauen before he be all cleane Well by al this you haue not yet proued that Christes bloud whensoeuer it washeth washeth continuallie and at once to the full Yea the saying of Dauid is manifest for the contrarie Hée was washed from his sinne by Christ and yet he prayeth for the same sinne saying Amplius laua me wash me more from my iniquitie clense me from my sinne In answering vnto it Psal 50. Pur. 97.78 you haue nothing to say but that it was at Gods handes and by the meanes of Christes bloud that he prayed to be clensed Yea syr but the place teacheth vs that God and that bloud do not at euery time wash one so fully but that they reserue yet to wash him more when it is thought good Now let vs heare also whether it folow that in suche washing nothing worketh with the bloud of Christ because the bloud is of it selfe omnisufficient The sufficiencie of Christes Passion saith he is counted a light argument to M. Allen. Pur. 154. Too light in déede to beare downe anye doctrine of Christ But sayth he thus wee reason Christe hath payde the full price of our sinnes hath fully satisfied for them therefore there is no parte of the price left to be paide by vs there remaineth no satisfaction for vs. And yet saith he againe We neither exclude repentance nor good works For Christ hath paide the price of their sinnes that repent and beleeue in him that folow his steppes that walke in his precepts So then he misliketh not that our workes should be with the passion of Christ but that they should worke with the passion of Christ and therefore he saith the absurditie of our doctrine is this that we say Christ by his suffering is become a cause of saluation to all that beleeue in him yet euery man by good works must procure his owne saluation These he saith are the enemies of the Crosse of Christ And yet it is the Scripture that saith Philip. 2. Worke your owne saluation Neither will he I trow cal the Apostle an enemie of God because he there saith It is God that worketh in you and yet worke your owne saluation Much lesse will he reason thus God is sufficient and able to work our saluation therefore there is no part of our saluation lefte to be wrought by the Passion of Christ For he séeth the reason to be a false reason and his reason is euen of the same fashion as both he and euery body besyde may sée Therfore to agrée al these Scriptures and Truethes together what could be more apte then as we be taught in the Schooles that there be thrée sortes of working causes Agens principale Instrumentum coniunctum Instrumentum separatum as in one writing I do write as the principall my hande doth write as the instrument vnited vnto my person and my penne doth write as the instrument separated from my person Eche of these working the whole worke and not parting it betweene them It is so in the working of our Saluation The Godhead worketh it principally The Manhoode of Christ and the workes of it namely his Passion worketh it as the arme of God The Sacramentes worke it as his instrumentes diuided from his person And so likewise his mysticall members the faithfull with their works do worke it as it were meanes and agents personally separated from him though mystically vnited vnto him And they part it not betwéene them but eche after his maner worketh the whole And that is it which the Scripture meaneth by helping Pur. 241. the word that your ignorance so much abhorreth when it so often saith that God helpeth both Christ Psa 17. and vs 2. Cor. 2. Heb. 13. And also that Christ helpeth vs. Heb. 2. But yet there is a difference in this similitude For God were sufficient to saue without the passion of Christ and that by baptisme yea and without baptisme also and other such instrumēts Likewise the passion of Christ were sufficient to saue though not without God yet without baptime and all other like But I can not write without my hande nor without a penne If then the Godhead or to vse your words the infinite and only cause of our saluation the meere mercy of God although it be so singularly omnisufficient doth not exclude neither Christes passion nor the working of it or merites of that man how doth the omnisufficiencie of Christes passion enforce you to exclude either his baptisme and his good workes in his members or also the working of his baptisme and the working or efficacy of those good works specially considering the Scripture is playne for al. For as it is written Pur. 97. That he hath washed vs from our sinnes by his bloud Apoc. 1. So likewise that he hath saued vs by the lauer of Regeneration Tit. 3. He clenseth his Church by the lauer of water Ephe. 5. Baptisme doth saue you 1. Pet. 3. So againe He hath made vs kings and priests to God Apoc. 1. If spiritual priestes ergo to offer our spirituall Sacrifices as our mortification Rom. 12. our almesdéedes Hebr. 13. both for our owne sinnes and for the sinnes of other because the externall Priest is ordeined to offer externall Sacrifices for sinnes both for him selfe and for the people Heb. 5. Which places I alleage rather then other as playne or playner because you were so blinde to alleage the selfe same for the contrarie to proue that Christ saueth vs by his blood alone as thogh the grace therof might not worke in his Sacraments and in his members workes Wherevpon also vpon the Angells saying Apo. 7. These are they that came out of great affliction Pur. 95. and haue washed their stoles and made them white in the bloud of the Lambe therefore they are in the presence of the throne of God you make this clarkly note and saye Marke here that they which came out of this great affliction were not purged thereby but that they washed and made white their garmentes in the bloud of the Lambe by whose righteousnes being clothed they may appeare in innocencie before the throne of God The text saith plainly that therefore they are before the throne to witte because they came out of such affliction so whited their stoles and yet this gloser taketh it awaye from the affliction whereas that whiting was nothing else but that affliction He forgate to do himselfe that which he so loftily would seacute eme to teache vs To conferre other places when there is a doubt for in another place of that booke it is expresly written thus Who so ouercommeth shal be clothed with white garmēts
they ended not their life in sinne because that praying is according to Gods will For it foloweth there immediatly Who so knoweth his brother to sinne he vseth the present tense and not the preterfect tense to haue sinned because his intent is to exhort also the sinner to leaue by time a sinne not to death as one that liued in Schisme but yet was reconciled before he dyed let him after his death request of Christ and life shall be giuen vnto him to one I say sinning not vnto death Sinne there is vnto death I say not that any pray for that because it is not according to Christes will to pray for them that be in hell All iniquitie is sinne and therefore to be diligently auoyded and not so much as one moment to be incurred And there is sinne vnto death As if he would say if you auoyde not that no hope after your death your brethren can not helpe you by praying for you This is the playne and smooth sense of that whole place and so must néedes be because there is no man nor no sinne in this life but we may pray for him and it as neither the Nouatians as bad as they were did denie Onely the Protestantes denie it because they haue no other shift to auoyde this place And therby let any indifferent any Christian man iudge whether this be not a playne place for praying for the dead Fulkes wordes of sinnes in this life and men in this life not to be prayed for and that to be this sinne and sinner vnto death I shall recite in the twelfth Chapter amongst his grossest errors and absurdities Thus I haue answered thanks be to God al his Scriptures against Purgatory and all his arguments made out of the Authoritie thereof both negatiuely and affirmatiuely Cap. 7. part 4. Wherby appeareth to the full the vanitie of his bragges in the last Chapter against the church of God that he could would produce against the doctrine thereof such plaine testimonies of Scripture such Scripture also for the meaning of ech place as by no meanes might be auoyded Whereas amongst all his testimonies you sée there is not one but it hath bene cléerely answered As now in this fourth last part shall be answered likewise with the like helpe of god all other Scriptures that in these two most insolent Libelles in any place vp and downe he alleageth against any other point of the Churches doctrine The fourth part Concerning all other questions that he mentioneth And first to put all the same in some order for the more vtilitie of the Reader I conceaue all the differences that are betwéene vs and the Protestants in this diuision Some are about the witnesses of Gods word the principles of Diuinitie or groundes of all truth which by them is onely Scripture by vs not onely Scripture but also the Church and certain others whervpon we frame our Motiues to all men to beléeue vs not the Heretikes shewing them that such and such are the principles which they must beléeue and withall that the said principles euery one of them stand for vs and not for the Protestantes Some are about other particular or priuate controuersies Which may be reduced vnto these two heades Good-workes and the Sacramentes the doctrine of which both they corrupt with their new inueÌ„tion of Onely faith Only Scripture and Only Faith as they do the foresaid with their toye of Onely Scripture What Scripture he alleageth about the first sort I haue in the two first partes of this chapter reported them al answered theÌ„ sauing a very few which I reserue to the tenth chapter which shall be of euery Motiue or Demaund apart by it selfe There in these fiue Motiues of Churches Seruice Priesthood with Sacrifice Monkes and Pope I will answere his few Scriptures thervnto belonging Now then concerning the second sort and first Good-workes what he alleageth about them concerneth them partly in generall partly in speciall that is to say prayer fasting or almes About Good-works in generall Iustification Good works in generall it concerneth that he saith They do not iustifie wherevnto he alleageth two places one of S. Paule Pur. 450. the other of Esay We beleue saith he that a man is not iustified by workes but by faith onely Rom. 3. And yet we beleue that good workes are necessary to be in euery man that is iustified A faâ—sarie Iac. 5. The wordes of S. Iames be not as he saieth but expressely against him A man is iustified by workes and not by faith onely Where you sée also that it is in all one sense that works do iustifie and faith The words of S. Paule likewise be not as he saith but thus A man is iustified by faith without the workes of the law That is to say although he haue not euermore done the works which the law commaundeth to wit good works yea although he haue sometimes yea and alwayes done the cleane contrarie to wit all euill works yet let him come to the Catholike faith and he shall there finde a remedie for all and of a wicked and so wicked a man be made iuste all his sinnes and wickednes béeing remitted him This sayth S Paule and the same say we But after he is so iustified he must not do the like agayne he must then kéepe the commaundementes of the Law béeing now by Christ made a new man and able therevnto and by so doing he shall be more iustified as S. Iames saith Conferre these two places of S. Paules also The iustice that is of the Law qui fecerit homo the man that hath done it shall liue by it Rom. 10. ex Leuit. 18. Which is in effect that no man shall liue by it because no man hath done it but all men haue done against it all being borne in sinne therfore not by the works of iustice which we had done but according to his owne great mercy he saued vs by baptisme Tit. 3. Do you marke the tense He speaketh of works before faith where you should haue alleaged of works after faith And so withall is answered your other place Ar. 102. where you say that the Popish Church is not content to be clothed in the white shining silke which is the iustification of Saintes made white in the bloud of the Lambe but with the filthy ragges of mans righteousnes Esai 64. If God conuert your heart that you may returne to your mother the Catholike Churche you shall finde that she will make nothing of all the good workes which you do nowe in Heresie because it is but mans righteousnesse But the good workes whiche afterwarde in the Churche you shoulde haue of her husbande the Lambe where learned you to call them The filthy ragges of mans righteousnes Apoc. 19. He that doubteth whether those Iustifications of the faithfull in the Apocalipse be as I say iust workes the same Apostle if he will conferre places in
vnto litle but religion is profitable vnto all things hauing promise of this present life and of the life to come Now what Scripture conferre you to shew that by bodily exercise he meaneth fasting and abstinence from wine or flesh The thing is playne if we marke and conferre no more but the words of this place it selfe that bodily exercise is that which is done for the body to preserue it in health in this present life to the which most men yea priestes and bishops sometimes are too much giuen mispēding much time in walking riding hunting hawking and such like for the preseruation of their bodies and litle or no time at all in spirituall exercise that is to say for the preseruation and increase of their soules in godlines religion wheras the same notwithstanding is as we know by Gods promise in diuers places of holy Scripture profitable both to that litle which they séeke for by such bodily exercise that is to this present life in so muche that many holy Ermites Monks liuing continually in such exercise haue passed the age of a hundred yeres and also which is incōparable to the life to come And therefore S. Paule absteined and fasted him selfe to auoyde eternall damnation as your selfe confessed a litle afore Ne reprobus efficiar least I become a reprobate 1. Cor. 9. saith he and not onely that but also to get coronam incorruptam a crowne incorruptible And the place is much to be noted for conference with this place which we haue in hande because he there calleth it his running and fighting that he did so sharply vse his owne body saying that he did therein imitate the schollers of bodily exercise to wit the runners in gole and fighters at barriers who to make them selues more nimble actiue absteine from all things and yet no more but to winne a corruptible crowne being as litle a thing as that litle that he speketh of to Timothie or rather much lesse though of some estéemed much more such present glory I say compared with this present life and health thereof Thus you sée by conference most manifestly what is bodily exercise and that you cleane contrary not knowing white frō blacke take it for fasting abstinence for that exercise I say which the Apostle there opposeth to it and counteth spirituall or exercise vnto Godward Which spiritual exercise as S. Paule so his disciple also S. Timothie vsed in like champion maner Amongest other poyntes of it to kéepe him selfe chast he absteined wholly from wine drunk nothing but water though being maruelous weake of body Whervpon the Apostle like a tender father writeth vnto him 1. Tim. 5. Kepe thy selfe chast by other exercise but do not yet drinke water but vse a litle wine for thy stomake thy often sicknings Which place againe you depraue say that the Apostle writeth this vnto him assuring him that such bodily exercise profiteth but a litle Pur. 76. No syr I haue shewed you what the Apostle calleth bodily exercise and that he counteth this to be exercise vnto godlines and that it profiteth so much as importeth besides this life which is but litle the auoyding of damnation the winning of a crowne in heauen Howbeit for al that they which are weak of body must runne wrestle as they may Timothie must consider that he is excéeding féeble and therfore not alwayes to drinke water onely and yet withal that he is young and therfore not to be very bold of wine but vse a litle only The measure of al is as S. Paule hath taught vs 1. Cor. 9. to tame the pride of the body to subdue it to bring it vnder that it be not our maister that it be our seruaunt neither rebelling against our commaundement nor fainting in our necessary worke Which measure is set prescribed so as it might in generall by his Spirite and by his Spouse who prophecied of such prescript fasting like to the fastes prescribed by S. Iohn to his disciples Mat. 9. as also of the Pharisées and Filij sponsi the children of the Bridegrome do fast them howsoeuer the children of Aerius of Iouinianus do breake them contemne them blaspheme them So much of Good-works now to the Sacramentes About the Sacramentes in generall Of the Sacramentes in generall first you say Pur. 450. We beleue that there are but two Sacramentes of the New Testament Baptisme and the Lords Supper instituted by Christ 1. Cor. 10. You meane belike the beginning of that chapter wher it is said that the Israelites were in Moyses baptized in the Cloude and in the Sea and did eate and drinke of Manna of the Rocke Are those the sacraments of the new Testament instituted by Christ Again suppose they are what a reason is this In that place we reade of two Supra pag. ergo there are but two It is no good Logike you sayd your self in this chapter aboue to conclude negatiuely of one place of Scripture This is not conteined in it therefore it is not true For we reade as playnly yea more playnly of the other fiue sacramentes in other places as of Confirmation Ioa. 7. of Penance Io. 20. of Extreme vnction Iac. 5. of Orders Mat. 26. of Matrimony Mat. 19 and of most of them in many other places also That they be Sacraments I cōfesse we reade not there no more do we 1. Cor. 10. or any where els reade that the other two be Sacramentes but that we gather of that which we reade and as wel in the fiue as in the two This is inough yet for further satisfaction the studious may cōsider that S. Paule 1. Cor. 10. had iust cause to mention those two or three figures onely For his purpose there is 1. Cor. 9.10 to warne vs that it is not inough that we be entred within the barres but that we must afterward runne and fight coragiously to winne the prise Therfore he nameth these Mosaical mysteries that were figures of the Sacramentes which we began withall to witte Baptisme and the complement of Baptisme which is Confirmation the Eucharist which thrée were then commonly and yet be at once ministred adultis at their first entring into the Church as it is manifest in antiquitie Infra ca. .12 and may be gathered Heb. 6. Now then what reason is it to trie the number of the Sacramentes by that place as though because those be at the first entrance therefore there be no more in the whole course nor in the end nor to gouerne the knights nor to encrease them nor to saulue them Pur. 450. Moreouer you say of the Sacraments in generall We beleeue that they giue not grace ex opere operato of the work wrought but after the faith of the receiuer and according to the election of God 1 Cor. 10. Againe And how should the Sacrament giue grace of the worke wrought if faith were requisite in
they made that faith and troth wherwith they had vowed afore the thing which they would not fulfil with perseuerance So smoothly and gently doth the text folow this coÌ„struction as yet also more playnly you shall sée if you conferre nubere volunt with this that followeth Iam enim quaedam conuerâ—ae sunt retro satanam As if he had said but what do I say They will marry They will play the Apostates Yea already some are turned backe after Satan Therfore I say of these yong widowes admit them not to vow Doth he not hereby euidently expound him selfe that in suche widowes to marry he calleth to turne backe after Satan Agayne in saying Let a widowe be admitted no lesse then three score yere olde and refuse the yonger ones I will that they marry Doth he not playnely signifie that the admitted may not marry and therefore the young ones bicause they will marry after their admission do incurre damnation This is our conference of the text it selfe with it selfe But in commeth Fulke and will néedes for all that haue it meante of the faith of Baptisme and Christianitie Pur. 147. because S. Paule in the same Chapter saith of another matter that who so neglecteth to prouide for his owne familie hath denyed the faith meaning the faith of a Christian man Specially because he calleth this that we speake of the first faith Neither is pistâ—s in the Scripture vsed for a vow oâ— promise Why do not you say your selfe that both there and once afore in the same Chapter it is vsed for the vow or promise made in Baptisme And can you remember neuer a place where the faith of God is the promise of God looke Rom. 3. Who hath not heard of the thrée good thinges in mariage that S. Augustine talketh so much of Fides Proles Sacramentum faith or troth yssue and Sacrament And where you triumph in your owne conceite against S. Augustines most naturall and most certaine exposition as though by it the first faith is expounded for the last vow now sir thus the text ruÌ„neth They wil marry that is fidem dare make promise betroth them selues to another husband to a mortall man and therefore to be damned because in so doing they haue broken their first faith that is the promise that they made the troth that they plighted afore to their husband Christ in their admission among these widowes What absurditie what inconsequence is in this let any man iudge whether hangeth better together it or the exposition of your companions that D. Allen chargeth them with to wit She that breaketh her faith of Baptisme shall be damned for mariage which you say is a cauill and not worth a rush What then is your exposition That belike hangeth exactly Thus you say S. Paule saith not she shall be damned for mariage but because she hath reiected the first faith that is suche wanton young huswifes proceede so farre that at length they forsake widowhood Chritianitie and all Lo Fulke it goeth hard vvith you your selfe are compelled to graunt that which you denied to wit that they shall be damned because they forsake widowhood and how forsake they widowhood but by marrying Ergo S. Paule saith they shall be damned for marrying So vnuincible is the texte in our exposition One texte more you alleage about mariage Pur. 17.25 to salue your Bishops ytching lust who as though it were annexum ordini saith D. Allen very aptely must out of hand for the most parte haue a wife whereas yet neuer from the Apostles time to this day Not one Mark it vvell any one Bishop or priest that is confessed to haue bene a good one did marry afterwards neither for all Iouinians plausible argumentes no not Iouinian him selfe What haue you then to defend yours withall that are so coÌ„trarie to all others A Bishop is not perfect vvith Fulke vnlesse he haue a vviâ—e Belike say you S. Paule taketh mariage to be so annexed to the order of an Ecclesiasticall minister that he neuer descrbeth the perfect paterne of a Bishop or Deacon but one of the first pointes is that he be the husband of one wife Belike you know not nor care not what you say for you should haue gathered the cleane contrarie if you had looked what he meneth by the husband of one wife A Bishop saith he must be the husband of one wife 1. Tim. 3. A Priest the husband of one wife 1. Tim. 3. The meaning thereof you might haue learned 1. Tim. 5. where he coÌ„maundeth about the choosing of a professed widow and saith quae fuit vnius viri vxor Let her be such a one as hath bene the wife of one husband So then he requireth in a Bishop Priest or Deacon to be made that he haue had onely one wife How much better then if he haue had none but is a virgin This you should haue gathered of his words and you gather the cleane contrarie that néedes he must haue had a wife or els if he be a virgin he swarueth from the perfect paterne yea more absurdly not that he must haue had one but that he must presently haue one for of that D. Allen did speake and to that you alleage S. Paule And thus gentle Reader I haue with Gods assistance gone through all the Scriptures reseruing onely a few to other places which this Heretike alleageth in his two bookes for any matter against the Catholike Church and answered euery one of them so clearly that I trust thou art fully satisfied and doest perceiue playnely that he had no cause to bragge of Scripture as in the last Chapter he did most insolently saying still an end that he cared not what was against him séeing Scripture was so expresly with him But he may and it please God who is most mercifull by this occasion better bethinke him selfe and leaue his kicking agaynst the pricke that is against our Lorde Iesus in his Church Act. 9. specially vnderstanding by this litle as he may sufficiently that much more either he or any other of his side should be throughly satisfied in all euery thing if he were present here with vs to sée and heare our dayly conference in the Scriptures as very many of his side yea and Ministers aboue a dosen diuers of them being also of no vulgar wittes haue come already haue heard our examining of the Bible specially of the New Testament ouer and ouer haue asked obiected replied whatsoeuer they liste haue to euery thing bene so well answered the prayse is Gods and his Catholike truthes and on the other side so hardly posed all I say out of the holy Scripture it selfe that euer after a few dayes they haue had more list to heare then to speake specially seacute eing vs at euery text to alleage sincerely for their side whatsoeuer they could and more then they could them selues and now are euerie one of them become so firme so sure so perfitte
Catholikes as none can be more and some of their suffering in Englande for the Catholike faith in prison in yrons and that after the most terrible and most cruell manner doth most gloriously declare ¶ The ninth Chapter To defend that the Doctors as they be confessed to be ours in very many pointes so they be ours in all pointes and the Protestantes in no point All the Doctors sayings that he aleageth are examined answered The first parte Of his Doctours generally j His chalenging words THat out of the old Doctours Church is no saluation that they make with vs in many things against the Protestants I declared in the thrée first Chapters by Fulkes owne confession Now to declare further that they be wholly ours with the * Aug. sic inuocat Cyprianum de Bapt. con Don. lib. 5. ca. 17. li. 7. cap. 1. Pur. 432. Pur. 383. helpe of their prayers I will defende that in nothing they make for the Protestants against vs because he saith vnto D. Allen speaking of the auncient Doctors and Councels Among whom as we will not denie but you haue some patrons of some of your errors so will we affirme that you haue more enemies in the greatest Againe The Papistes offer to stand to their iudgement in all thinges and yet in most thinges yea in the chiefest pointes of religion they are contrarie to the Doctors and old Councels Againe Brag of them as much as thou wilt Pur. 406. thou shalt neuer be able to proue that of 20. errours which thou defendest Rusticus es Corridon they did hold one If they haue spoken otherwise then trueth in any matter they must be * In the zeale of the Scribes against Christ. told of it as well as other men But thou must not think that for one error common with them thou must hold an hundred cōtrarie to them He saith in most things and Pur. 238. in an hundred for one Yea more then that in another place It may be a shame to you Papists saith he to leaue condemne for heresy all that is true in those mens writings and agreable to the Scripture and to make such vaunt for a few superstitious ceremonies Pur. 407. and vncincere opinions And againe Nay M. Allen though those Doctors buyld some hay or stouble vpon the only foundation Christ their case is ten thousande times better then yours which buyld nothing but dirt and dung tempered with hay and stuble vpon no foundation at all and seeke by all meanes to digge vp the onely true foundation of our faith Iesus Christ making him nothing better then a common person except his bare name Ar. 60. And once againe more particularly The other writers of later yeres he spoke before of Iustinus Martyr and Ireneus we are not afraide to confesse that they haue some corruption wherby you may seeme to haue colour of defence for inuocation of Saintes prayer for the dead and diuers superstitious and superfluous Ceremonies But for the chiefe poyntes of Christian religion and the foundation of our faith that is for the honor of God the offices of Christ Redemption iustification satisfaction the fruites of Christ his passion Grace faith workes authoritie of Gods word authoritie of the Pope Real presence Transubstantiation Communion in both kinds Images c. the most approued writers Tertullian Cyprian Origen Epiphanius Hilarius Chrysostomus Ieronymus Ambrosius Augustinus c. are vtterly against you and therefore can not be of your Church Lo this he saith of our differing from the Doctors First touching the number of the poyntes to wit in most things in many hundreds yea in all that is true in their writings and secondly touching the weight of the poyntes to wit in the greatest and chiefest euen about God and Christ him selfe with those other that he named ij A generall answere to his chalenge declaring that we neede not to answere his Doctors particularly Wherein I thinke Reader whatsoeuer thou art thou doest of thy selfe abhorre the mouth which so filthily runneth ouer and therfore desirest not that I take the payns which I haue promised to ioyne with him in this Chapter vpon the Doctors As also other good causes there are why I might spare that labour Pur. 383 432. First because speaking of the old Doctors and old Councels and the most auncient primatiue Church he saith Pur. 383.432 For which cause that is because the Papistes do offer to stand to their iudgement in al things and not for Confirmation of truth we alleage the authoritie of men we stand for authoritie only to the iudgement of the holy Scriptures In which saying as he agréeth well with himselfe aboue in the seuenth Chapter where he did set at nought all but onely Scripture so I hauing in the laste Chapter answeared all his Scriptures haue by this his owne iudgement fully satisfied him although I meddle not at all with his Doctors vnlesse he require me to spende time onely to mainteine their honor whiche make the forsaid offer being otherwise as he here saith nothing to the matter which is the Confirmation of trueth Againe because he himselfe for me doth answere all his owne Doctors if it be rightly considered See cap. 5. in the end in that he confesseth them to haue helde with vs the very same pointes for the which we must be condemned no remedie as differing from the Doctors in the greatest pointes For why doth he saye that wée are against the honor of God and against the Offices of Christ but because wée hold Inuocation of Saintes and worshipping of their Relikes But the Doctors held the same he confesseth both here Sup. cap. 3. part 2. Sup. cap. 7. par 1. in Traditions and more amply in the 3. chapter Why doth he say that we are against the authoritie of Gods word but because we hold with Traditions But the Doctors held with the same he confesseth in the 7. Chapter And so forth in the residue of those great pointes as may easily be deduced in like maner or at the least so proued that he shal be faine to cōfesse as much In somuch that of one of those points he saith thus expresly I confesse with M. Allen Pur. 156. that the old writers not onely knew but also haue expressed the valew of our redemption by Christ in such wordes as it is not possible that the Popish Satisfaction can stande with them And yet on the other side sée what followeth immediatly Against the valew of which Redemption saith he if they haue vttered any thing by the word of Satisfaction or any thing els we may lawfully reiecte their authoritie not only though they be Doctors of the Church but also if they were Angels frō heauen So that nowe we no more néede to defend against him that we are not contrarie to the Doctors in such great poyntes then that the Doctors are not contrarie to them selues in the same as also that
For to trust in Gods giftes as in the Catholike faith and good workes that hée worketh in vs also to trust in his Sainctes to trust in these I say as they be his is to trust in him onely iij. About Purgatorie Touchinâ— Scripture expounded against it Pur. 380.383 Concerning the lâ—t of the thrée where D. Allen hauing alleaged for his part the consent of all auncient Doctors said boldly to his Reader Aske your new teachers whether they haue any expresse words in Scripture that denie prayers to be profitable for the dead or at least which is libertie enough expounded for that meaning by any one man of all the antiquitie Fulke answering therevnto saith As for a place so expounded by an auncient writer I will seeke no further then the place of Hieronym euen nowe alleaged out of your owne Canon lawe vppon 2. Cor. 5. referring the Reader to many other places alleaged in this aunswere as out of Cyprian Origen and others by whiche the intollerable lying and bragging and rayling of this miscreant shal be better confuted then by any contradiction of woordes So hotte hée taketh that which D. Allen with all mildnes and swéetenes speaketh for saluation of Soules to suche as maye for theyr simplicitie be soone deceaued by following other mens errors with whome the names of Doctors or the onelye bare bragge of Scriptures are as good as the alleagation of places And sée whether he did not worthily so say for I assure thée Reader Fulke taken in a vayne brag it is yet bare names of Doctors that this Answerer also saith out of Ciprian Origen others He caÌ„not shew that in his whole booke neither afore this place nor also after he alleaged any exposition of a text by Cyprian or Origen for that purpose no nor by any other at all as thou shalt here perceaue excepting onely S. Hierome And touching him also what a coosining is it of the Reader to pretend that Hierome expoundeth Scripture against prayer for the dead considering that you confesse your selfe that Hierome allowed prayer for the dead as in the third chapter I noted Cap. 3. pa. â— diui 1. As if you would beare the simple in hand that we also who now allow prayer for the dead do expound Scripture against prayer for the dead Is this to shew that the Doctors be of your side in déede or onely to abuse their bare names The place of S. Hierome is not vpon the 2. Cor. 5. but vpon Gal. 6. And in the Canon lawe if Gratians booke be Canon law you haue the meaning of it Verum hoc de impaenitentibus accipieÌ„dum est saith Gratian But this is to be vnderstood of the vnpenitent de mortuis damnatis of the dead that are damned saith the Summe ouer the head Neither do the wordes enforce ought els alleage you them neuer so often These they are Pur. 382.383.445 In this present worlde we knowe that one of vs may be helped of another either by prayers or by counselles but when we shall come before the iudgement seate of Christ neither Iob nor Daniell nor Noe can intreate for any man but euery man must beare his owne burden For any man you sée whose burden weigheth contrarie to all intreatie of others because he dyed impenitent But otherwise who so dyeth penitent deserueth thereby that the intreatie of others maye helpe him as you heard S. Augustine saye in the laste Chapter answering the texte 2. Corinth 5. Cap. 8. par 3. diui and so he beareth his owne burden and yet may be holpen by others For suche is the poise of his burden that it weigheth this way and not the other way In an other place D. Allen rehearseth foure textes that they alleage agaynst Purgatorie Pur. 436.437.438 Eccle. 11. Mat. 7. 2. Cor. 5. Apoc. 14. the aunsweres I haue put downe in the last Chapter and then saith I aske them sincerely and desire them to tel me faithfully what Doctor or wise learned man of the whole antiquitie euer expounded these textes or any one of them agaynst Purgatorie or practise for the dead Herevnto Fulke answereth Before the heresie of purgatorie was planted in the world how could the old Doctors interpret these places by name against that which they neuer heard named Cap. 3. pa. 2 diui 1. Infra ca. 11. contra 45. this poore shift he falleth vnto not considering that it is contrarie to his bragges here a litle before of Cyprian Origen and others nor remembring that in the third Chapter he confessed the old Doctors both heard allowed both the name the thing both of purgatory and prayer for the dead Yet haue they he saith so interpreted some of them that their interpretation can not stande with Purgatorie or prayer for the dead as I will shew in their particuler answers So he promiseth and yet wheras they are foure texts only at one of them be bringeth the Doctors interpretation and that also none but S. Hieromes whom also he confesseth as I haue said to allow prayer for the dead Let vs sée theÌ„ how you shew that his interpretation is against his owne beliefe And because you crake of the exposition of the Fathers you say to D. Allen Hieronym in his commentarie vpon this place Eccle. 11. expoundeth the north and the south not for the states of grace and wrath as diuers of the auncient Fathers do saith D. Allen but for the places of rewarde or punishment of them that dye Why what repugnance is betwéene those two expositions They agrée both so well that S. Hierome hath them both First the two states of them that dye Whersoeuer thou doest fall there shalt thou alwayes remayne Siue te rigidum c. Whether thy last time find thee rigorous and cruell to the poore or milde and mercifull Then the two places of payment The tree either did sinne before while it was standing and then it is put afterwardes in the North coste or if it did beare fruites worthy of the South it shall lye in the South coste And immediatly Neither is there any tree but it is either in the North or in the South Vnderstanding by the North any place of punishment not onely eternall but also temporall in so much that he there sheweth out of Esay that the North may bring to the South These are his two last expositions of that place his first is this Keepe the foresaid commaundementes For wheresoeuer thou preparest thee a place futuramque sedem and a seate for hereafter whether it be in the South or in the North there when thou art dead thou shalt continue This exposition with D. Allen I followed in the last chapter for it is nothing els to say but that no man after death can merite either to change altogether or so much as to better his state Touching Scriptures for Purgatorie and prayer for the dead And touching Scriptures expounded by the Doctors agaynst Purgatorie and prayer for
that be Canonical but among others being Apocryphal Cuius authoritas c. The authoritie of which boke is thought lesse fit to confirme those things that come into contention betwéene the Hebrewes no doubt and vs. But notwithstanding the Hebrues counting it Apocryphal the Nicene Councell as we reade hath reckned this booke in the number of the Holy Scriptures As also S. Augustine distinguisheth saying Aug. de Ci. dei li. 18. ca 36 The supputation of the times after Esdras to Aristobulus is not found in the holy Scriptures which are called Canonicall but in others among which others are also the bookes of the Machabees which though the Iewes do not yet the Church counteth for Canonicall By all which it is playne that S. Hierome meaneth not as the Protestantes do when he saith that the Church receiueth not the bookes of Iudith Tobias and the Machabees among the Canonicall Scriptures For him selfe saith that the booke of Iudith is Canonicall by the Councell of Nice but only as I haue saide he instructeth the Christians béeing ignorant in the Hebrue tongue what bookes they should vse against the Iewes for which cause he also addressed his new Translation of the olde Testament out of the Hebrew as in many places he protesteth Hie. Apol. ad Ruff. and that the Church in Canonizing those other bookes meant not for all that that they should be vsed agaynst the Iewes who receiue them not and therfore would but laugh at vs for our labour Howbeit also if S. Hierome did saye in the Protestantes sense that the Churche then receyued not those bookes neither in her owne Canon that maketh nothing for the Protestantes For we graunt the time was when the Church did not generally receiue some of those bookes To make for the Protestantes he should haue saide that the Church and not only any priuate person neither did then nor ought afterwardes to receiue them Pur. 216. Where now is Fulke that saith Hieronym doth simply refuse these bookes of the Machabées Agayne Hieronym saith the Church receiueth them not for Canonicall Pur. 386. Yea moreouer I haue by the consent of the Catholike Church aunswered them And agayne of Tobias booke Pur. 215.230 I haue shewed by authoritie of Hieronym which is proofe sufficient agaynst the Papist that the Church receiueth not this booke of Tobias for Canonicall Scripture All this you saye but I haue shewed that not so muche as Hierome him selfe maketh with you though also if he did Supra pa. 1. eodem cap. that is not proofe sufficient agaynst vs as I haue tolde you playne inough before that it is onely the consent of the Doctours to whiche we attribute infallibilitie and the scope that of confidence of our cause we geue you to bring one Doctour if you can is not in these bymatters but in our principall controuersies And this much of the Canonicall Scriptures though it be somwhat besides my limites Whervnto yet I must néedes adde the place where you say thus Pur. 218. If Martyn Luther and Illyricus haue sometimes doubted of S. Iames Epistle they are not the first that doubted of it Eusebius sayth playnely it is a counterfeite Epistle lib. 2. cap. 23. and yet he was not accounted an heretike I say not this to excuse them that doubt of it for I am perswaded they are more curious then wise in so doing Do you make it but curiositie to doubt of that Scripture which your selfe also confesse to be Canonicall Howbeit Luther not onely doubted of it but also vtterly reiected it euen with as great courage as you haue here reiected the second of the Machabées and that also after the consent of the whole Church Is this no worse then Eusebius his fault before the Churches declaration O worthy estimation of Canonicall Scripture What matter will not you license them of your side to doubt of without note of Heresie when you dare so do in that which with you is the greatest And yet also to shewe what a marchaunt you are A falsarie Eusebius saith not as you charge him but the cleane contrarie Eu. li. 2. c. 22 His wordes are these Of Iames I reade so muche By whom the first of the Epistles which are named Catholicae is saide to be written But this one thing I maye not omit that although of some it is taken for a counterfeite because no suche number of the auncient writers maketh any mention at all of it as neither of that which is saide to be the Epistle of Iude which also is sette in the number of the seuen Epistles Catholicall Tamen nos istas cum reliquis in quamplurimis Ecclesijs publicè receptas approbatasque cognouimus Yet we haue founde these with the residue to be publikely receiued and approued in very many Churches ij About onely Scripture Next vnto this I take in hande the question of Onely Scripture thinking better to deferre the rest touching Purgatorie to the end of the chapter dispatching also all other questions before because they be shorter Howe he ascribed all authoritie to Onely Scripture and nothing to ought els we heard in the seuenth chapter If the Doctors be not of their ovvn side they be on â—ulks side Now he will beare the ignorant in hande that the Doctors were of the same opinion yet confessing withall that they helde the contrarie no lesse then we doo as partly in that same chapter we saw partly here agayne we shall sée And therefore in this question agayne as in others afore it is no more agaynst vs then agaynst those Doctours them selues whatsoeuer he wresteth oute of their writings Cyprian would haue nothing done in the celebration of the Lords supper namely in ministring of the cup Pur. 287. but that Christ him selfe did li. 2. Epist 3. I answere he writeth there contra Aquarios against them that offered in the Chalice water onely whereas Christ offered wine That he calleth aliud quà m quod pro nobis dominus prior fecit An other thing then that which Christ did first for vs as being cleane against Christes doing and such a doing as he did for a tradition to vs. But otherwise to mingle the wine with water S. Cyprian there requireth and that also by Christes tradition and therfore he buildeth not vpon onely Scripture as you in alleaging him séeme to pretend Pur. 303. Now for an other Doctor where Chrysostome sayth It was decreed by the Apostles that in the celebration of the holy Mysteries a remembrance should be made of them that are departed we will be bold to charge him with his owne saying And there you alleage foure places out of him against him selfe as it were for onely Scripture Is not this pretie shewing of the Doctors to be of your side And what are these places of S. Chrysostome First IdeÌ„ Ar. 69. Hom. de Adam et Heua Satis sufficere c. We thinke it suffiseth enough whatsoeuer
the Doâ—stes is Vbi sit ecclesia where the Church is whether with vs or with them What shall we do then shall we seeke her in verbis nostris in our owne wordes or in the wordes of her head our Lorde Iesus Christ I thinke we ought rather to seeke her in his wordes who is trueth and beste knoweth his owne body Where by our owne wordes you vnderstande all besides Onely Scripture But S. Augustine doth not so quicquid nobis inuicem obricimus verba nostra sunt Our wordes are whatsoeuer we obiect one to another of deliuering the diuine bookes in Dioclesians time of burning frankinsence to the Idols of persecuting As all your declayming also at this time against vs is for certayne crimes of certayne men We hauing the like yea and them more haynous and that more truely to charge you withall But these words S. Augustine will and we with him to be silent when the Church is sought and the words of Christ in the Scripture to sound Againe you alleage him Epist 48. ad Vincentium RogatistaÌ„ where he â—aith We are sure that no man could iustly separat him selfe as Luther did a communione omnium gentium from the communion of all nations because none of vs seeketh the Churche in his owne righteousnesse but in the holy Scriptures Wherevnto you adde your fiue â—gges saying So if the Papistes would not presume of their owne righteousnesse but seeke â—he Churche of Christe in the Scriptures they would not sepaâ—ate them selues from the communion of Christes Church now â—y Gods grace inlarged further then the Popish Church There 〈◊〉 no crooked gambrell bow that casteth so wide as you do the â—octors wordes these specially from their scope I maruell â—uche at you for it and muche more if you sawe the place By 〈◊〉 Communion of all Nations so often agaynst the Donaâ—es Saint Augustine meaneth the Societie of that visible â—urch which as it beganne visibly at Hierusalem so visibly grewe on afterwardes and groweth on to this day and to the worldes ende ouer all nations From whiche Societie or Companie Epist 48. fieri non potest it is impossible saith he that any can haue iuste cause to separate their companie Because the Donatistes saide that Cecilianus the Catholike Bishop of Carthage had yéelded in Dioclesians persecution and that all the other Catholikes by communicating with him after that whereas they should haue excommunicated him for euer were also defiled thereby and therefore that them selues who had not yéelded did well to separate them selues from the Catholikes as the iust from the vniust Therevpon Saint Augustine saith notably Iust separation impossible If any may haue a iust cause to separate their companie from the companie of all Nations and to call that Ecclesiam Christi the Church of Christ Vnde scitis How know you in all Christendome beeing so wide and side lest perhaps before you did separate your selues some did afore separate them selues for some iust cause in some so farre countreys that the bruite of their iustice is not come to you How can the Church béeing but one be in you rather then in them who before perhaps haue separated them selues Ita fit c. So it remayneth that seeing you know not this same you be vncertayne of your selues Which likewise must needes happen to all others who vse for their Societie the testimonie not of God but of them selues that is of their owne iustice And then a litle after Nos autem ideo certi sumus But we Catholikes are certayne that none can haue iustly separated himself from the companie of all Nations quia non quisque nostram in iustitia sua because any of vs doth not in his owne iustice but in the diuine Scriptures seeke for the Church Et vt promissa est reddi conspicit and seeth it to be represented euen as it was promised to wit from Hierusalem to Rome from the Iewes ouer all nations being mixt both of good and bad and the good not consenting no whit defiled by the companie of the bad And therefore whether any of our Popes any of our other Bishops any of our other fathers any of our Catholike brethren haue bene so yll as the Protestants make them or no sure we are that Luther possibly could not as neither euer any could or can iustly separate him selfe because by the holy most euident Scriptures that only is the true church which beginning at IerusaleÌ„ groweth ouer all Nations in which by the same Scriptures we sée that once the Romanes were and from which the said Romanes did neuer separate theÌ„ selues afterward and with which Romanes Luther first was and afterwardes did Separate himselfe from them and so therfore from the true Church And yet come you like a blinde beetle and say that the Papistes did Separate them selues from your Church bragging as blindely of your inlarging For once hauing made a separation it is no inlarging afterwardes that can winne you the true Church from them that had it afore Of whose largenes yet also aboue your largenes read my 9.31.32.33.47 Demaundes and ioyne with me if you list vpon them Your third parte out of Augustine is more generall to wit about all questions with any Heretikes whatsoeuer thereof you say Ar. 13. that he would haue heresies confuted only by Scriptures For writing against Maximinus the Arian li. 3. ca. 14. a place commonly and often cited he saith Sed nunc nec ego Nicenum c. Of which place your gathering is this If Augustine would not oppresse the Arians by the authoritie of the Nicene Councell which was the first and the best generall Councell that euer was but only by the Scriptures how much lesse would he charge them with other authorities that the Papistes alleage beside the authoritie of holy Scriptures It is for your owne vantage or els you would not so play the proctor for Heretikes S. Augustine would not oppresse the Arians nor would not charge them but onely with Scripture you say But doth he say that he might not for there is the question You know I doubt not how commonly he presseth the Donatistes with the authoritie of the sayd Nicen Councell Aug. con Ep. parm li. 2. ca. 8. De bap coÌ„ Don. l. 1. c. 7 graunting that in S. Cyprians time it was a doubtfull thing whether Heretikes can baptize But nullo iam quaestio est now it is out of all doubt because in that same Councell it had bene discussed considered ended and ratified And euen so in your owne place a litle before hauing proued inuincibly by the Scriptures that the Father the Sonne are vnius eiusdemue substaÌ„tiae of one and the same substance he sayth immediatly This is that Homousion which against the Arrian heretikes was in the Nicene Councell ratified of the Catholike fathers veritatis authoritate authoritatis veritate not onely by authoritie of truth as your selfe do graunt but also by truth of authoritie
which you denie It followeth Which Homousion afterwards in the Councell of Atiminum hereticall impietie vnder the hereticall Emperour Constantius endeuoured to infirme But all in vaine For soone after the libertie of the Catholike faith preuaiing Homousion was defended vniuersally Then come the words that you alleage Sed nunc nec ego NicenuÌ„ nec tu debes ArimineÌ„se tanquam praeiudicaturus proferre coÌ„cilium But now in this disputation betwene vs two being vpon the matter it selfe in it selfe as it were to preiudicate neither must I alleage the Councell of Nice nor thou the Councell of Ariminum For so that Arrian Bishop Maximinus being both to encounter with S. Augustine vpon the matter it selfe sayd in the very beginning of the disputation If thou demaund my faith I hold that faith which at Ariminum of three hundred and thirtie Bishops was not onely notified but also by their subscriptions ratified Au. contra Max. li. 1. in principio Therefore S. Augustine said as before and further as followeth Nec ego huius authoritate nec tu illius detineris Neither doth the authoritie of the one holde me nor of the other holde thee Where your false translation maketh him to say that the Arrian was not bounden to the authoritie of the Nicene Councell contrarie to that which he said afore calling it veritatem authoritatis the truth of authoritie Therefore they were bound to it as you also now be bound to the Tridentine Councell but they would not be holden within their boundes as neither you will And therefore it was to no more purpose to alleage against them that of Nice then it is to alleage against you this of Trent specially they hauing that of Ariminum to pretend for them such a one as you being of all great Heresies the beggerliest haue none Neither would we in the like altercations alleage against you the olde Councels if you would plainely confesse them to be against you so as you do confesse the Tridentine to be against you and so as the Arrians did confesse the Nicene to be against them Wherevpon S. Augustine there sayth By authorities of the Scriptures being witnesses not proper to one side but common to both let matter trie with matter cause with cause reason with reason The like would we by his ensample in the like case say to you in the meane time also not refusing to answere al that you can alleage be it Scripture be it Councell or whatsoeuer els as in this booke you finde nor requiring you to answere any priuate witnesses but onely common considering that not we onely but you also whatsoeuer you say of onely Scripture do make claime for all that and appeale to the first 600. yeares namely your Iewell in those two Goticall Sermons of his at Powles crosse Anno 1560. The other places also that you alleage out of Augustine for this generall parte are but particular and concerne no more but that one question of the Church whereof your second parte was as this former place coÌ„cerned no more but the question of the Trinitie And therefore your probation is not so large as your affirmation where you say that although Augustine proue against the Pelagians by the prayers of the Church Pur. 349. yet he doeth not meane to defend that whatsoeuer the visible Church receiueth is true and therefore all other perswasions set aside he prouoketh onely to the Scriptures to trie the faith doctrine of the Church How true that is appeareth by the very same booke De vnitate Ecclesiae out of which you go about to shewe such prouoking of his for there when he hath proued against the Donatistes the Church to be his he sayth expresly that to be ynough also for all other questions Aug. de vnitate Eccl. cap. 18.19 Sufficit nobis c. It is ynough for vs that we haue that Church which is pointed to by most manifest testimonies of the Holy and Canonicall Scriptures And touching the very question it selfe of the Church againe what doe you alleage out of him what you gather of his saying I sée Ar. 13.14 for you say By this Augustine declareth first that Heretikes must be confuted onely by the Scriptures and secondly that neither Councels Succession of Bishops Vniuersalitie Myracles Visions Dreames nor reuelations are the notes to trie the Catholike Church but onely the Scriptures So you gather but he sayth not so Au. de vni Eccl. ca. 16. Remoueantur omnes moratoriae tergiuersationes sayth he Away with all dilatorie drawinges backe such as is Quicquid de peccatis hominum obijcitur all that the Donatist Bishop obiecteth of certeine mens crimes Also when he saith for his Church Verum est quia hoc ego dico It is true because I say this or because this said that felowbishop or those felowbishops of mine or those Bishops in their Councels or Clarkes or Lay of oures aut ideo verum est or therefore it is true because such and such meruailes did Donatus who was as it were their Luther or Pontius as it were their Caluine or any other or because men do pray at the memories of our departed be hard or because this and that there doeth happen or because such a brother of ours or such a sister of ours sawe such a vision walâ—ng or dreamed such a dreame sleeping Remoueantur ista Awaye with these dilatories and let them shew their Church in the Canonicall authoritie of the Holy books Nec â—ta vt ea colligant c. Neither so as to gather rehearse those places which are obscure or ambiguous or figuratiue that euery man maye interpret them as he list after his owne sense But bring you forth some place so manifest that it needeth no interpreter Ar. 13. Pur. 333. Because neither we do say that men ought to beleeue vs that we are in the Church for that that the Church which we holde hath bene commended by Optatus of Mileuis or by Ambrose of Milayne as now by Fisher of Rochester or Hosius of Warmes or by other inumerable Bishops of our communion or because she hath ben set forth by Councelles of our fellowbishopps For these were priuate to S. Augustines side as those other Bishopps and Councelles were priuate to the Donatistes side So are they not now but both sides we and you do claime them And therfore now better cause to alleage them euen also in the question of the Church then was in S. Augustines time how be it then also he might well haue alleaged them although in that booke he did not and sayth he did not For in them was veritas authoritatis trueth of authoritie as here aboue pag. 179. he sayd to the Arrian and no lesse also to the Donatistes It followeth on further as you also alleage Aut quia per totum orbem Moracles and visions or Because ouer all the world in the Holy places that our communion doth frequent so great Miracles partely of
places Nowe what maketh all this for Fulke vnlesse he thinke he hath any vauntage in his owne false translation of Acta turning it Decrees Yea doth it not make against him most inuincibly as all the rest also that S. Augustine hath written against the Donatistes for his Church ours that is for the Church beginning at Hierusalem and thence spreding ouer all Nations to the very last time euen in the same maner altogether as it had done to S. Augustines time iij About certaine Traditions Vpon this question of Onely Scripture I haue stood long because Onely Scripture Onely faith are with the Protestantes all in all howbeit they haue neither Scripture nor Faith Now to dispatche other questions very briefly agaynst certayne Traditions Fulke alleageth saying Beatus Rhenanus a Papist and a great Antiquarie affirmeth that by the Canons of the Nicene Councell and other Councels which he hath seene in Libraries those oblations pro Natalitijs with other superstitions that Tertullian fathereth vpon Tradition of the Apostles were abrogated As touching oblations pro Natalitijs I haue answered in the sixt Chapter Cap. 6. par 1. v. But as for abrogation of any other Traditions Rhenanus hath neuer a word iiij About the mariage of Votaries For the mariage of such as haue vowed virginitie Ar. 45. Pur. 22.23 you alleage one place of Epiphanius thrise another of S. Hieromes twise and all about a matter that we hold euen as they did Thus you saye Epiphanius Hpiph li. 2 Haer. 61. although he count it an offence to marrie after their vowe therein he is with vs you know yet he saith speaking of such as secretly liue in fornication sub specie solitudinis aut continentiae vnder the colour of vowed singlenes or continencie It is better to marrie then to burne that first is not in Epiphanius Melius est itaque vnum peccatum habere non plura It is better to haue one sinne rather then many It is better for him that is fallen from his course wherein he beganne to runne for the Crowne of Virginitie openly to take a wyfe according to the lawe a virginitate multo tempore poenitentiam agere and a long time to repent to do penaunce for breaking that vowe of his virginitie and so hauing done his full penaunce to be brought agayne into the Churche out of the which he was caste as an excommunicate person for breaking his vow as one that hath done amisse as one that is fallen and broken and hauing neede to be bound rather then to be wounded dayly with priuie dartes of that wickednesse whiche the diuell putteth into him So knoweth the Church to preach Haec sunt sanationis medicamenta These are the medicines of healing Whereof you gather and say that Epiphanius calleth marriage of suche men an holsome medicine contrarie to that you confesse your selfe that he calleth it a sinne for so doth the Apostles Tradition saith he vnlesse perhaps you thinke Sinne to be an holsome medicine No syr the holsome medicins are his long penance and his reconcilement to the Church againe But at the least say you Epiphanius alloweth marriage in them whereas the Popish Church did separate them from their wiues in queene Maries time After a solemne vow which is made but only two ways by taking holy orders by professing some common approued rule of Religion to marrie is * Chry. ep 6 ad Theod. MonachuÌ„ lapsum Basil lib. de virginitate no mariage and therevpon it is that no Doctor can be alleaged which alloweth it for mariage if Priests or such professed Monkes and Nunnes do marrie But the sole vow of virginitie and of widowhood is none of those two and therfore but a simple vow and therefore to marrie after it although it be a great mortall sinne yet the mariage holdeth So saith Epiphanius and so say we as some widowes in England hauing taken the mantle and the ring and marrying afterwards can beare vs witnesse whose mariage we haue allowed of though they may not vse it so fréely without iust dispensation as other maried Folke and as their husbandes may because of their vow and cured them by penance reconciliation altogether as Epiphanius here witnesseth of the Church in his time Hie. ad Demetriad tom 1. So is it likewise of the simple vow of virginitie that S. Hierome speaketh saying The name of certayne virgins which behaue them selues not well doth slaunder the holy purpose of virgins and the glory of the heauenly and angelike familie To whoÌ„ must be playnly said vt aut nubant that either they marrie if they can not conteine or els conteine suing to God to giue them strength if they will not marrie We say the same to the same and generally to all others which of two sinnes wil nedes commit one counsayling them rather to commit the lesser then the greater As for example to say that they will come to your schismatical and Heretical seruice when the Commissioners require no more rather then to come vnto it in déede not omitting to tell them withal that they should neither so much as say they wil come because that also is a sinne and a mortall sinne as Epiphanius told those virgins that their mariage also is sinne v. About the Real presence and Transubstantiation About the blessed viuificall Sacrament of the Altar you alleage one Doctor against the Real presence and thrée others agaynst Transubstantiation Pur. 326. It was not the beleefe of S. Augustine nor of any other in that time you say that the Sacrament is the naturall body and bloud of Christ As though it were the mysticall body of Christ which is his Church Vnlesse you finde more then these two his naturall body and his mysticall body Or as though it were not his naturall body which was the morow after his Supper to dye for vs and his naturall bloud which was to be shedde for vs. When will you euer admit any text for plaine and euident Scripture standing so obstinately against these most cléere woords of Christ This is my Body that is geuen and broken for you Luc. 22.1 Cor 11. This is my bloud Mat. 26. Mar. 14. that is shedde for you and for many Luc. 22. Mat. 26. Mar. 14. And what a grosse blindnes is this considering the infinit difference betwene bread and Christ to thinke that being in S. Augustines time taken for bread it could afterward in all Christendome be taken for Christ himselfe and that without all contradiction wheras also at this time you the Sacramentaries could not chaunge the doctrine of it from Christ to bread but heauen and earth cryeth out against you for it not the Catholikes alone but also the Lutherans But S. Augustine forsooth saith Pur. 3â—8 Non hoc corpus quod videtis manducaturi estis c. I will recite the whole circumstance that the world may sée your dealing Aug. in Ps 98. I finde
Virgine was breaking of her vow and the fall of those men was denying of Christ in persecution but they make not against Pardons no neither of those most heinous sinnes vnlesse you thinke that the Churches binding is preiudicial to her lowsing both being giuen her of Christ For what els doth S. Ambrose there but bind that virgine as béeing her Bishop to do penance al her life Inhaere poenitentiae vsque ad extremam vitae c. Sticke to penance euen to the end of thy life and presume not that pardon may be giuen thee of mans day for he deceiueth thee that so promiseth thee For thou that hast in special sinned against the Lord because she was his vowed spouse it is meete that of him onely thou looke for remedie in day of Iudgement So that all her life he bindeth her to penance bidding her not to hope for any pardon at his hands The Emperour Theodosius he bound also Theo. hist li. 5. ca. 17. though indefinitely but after eight monethes penance loused him again with a pardon Who séeth not that all this maketh playnely for pardons and not against them Likewise S. Cyprian in that Sermon and in twenty Epistles at the least maketh playnly for Pardons in that he doth no more but reproue them that be giuen partly of such as had not authoritie to louse at least those deniers as of Lay martyrs of méere Priestes partly of suche as had authoritie but without cause without moderation and to vnpenitent persons partly moste of al both these defects concurring But otherwise although being Primate of all Affrike he reprehended a certaine Bishop for geuing pacem peace to a certaine Priest Cyp. ep 59 before he had done poenitentiam plenam full penance which manifestly was a Pardon contra decretum de Lapsis contrarie to the Councels decrée touching such deniers Pacem tamen quomodocunque à Sacerdote dei c. Yet saith he being once giuen by a Bishop the Priest of God in what maner soeuer we will not reuoke it and therefore we permit Victor to enioy the leaue to communicate which hath bene graunted him NotwithstaÌ„ding that to those Impenitents trusting also but in lay mens pardons he crieth as you alleage Nemo se fallat c. Let no man deceiue him selfe Cyp. sermo de Lapsis let no man beguile him selfe onely our Lord can giue mercy onely he can graunt pardon to sinnes as beeing coÌ„mitted agaynst him Homo Deo esse non potest maior nec remittere aut donare indulgentia sua seruns potest quod in dominum delicto grauiore commissum est ne adhuc lapso hoc accedat ad crimen si nesciat esse praedictum Iere. 17. maledictus homo qui spem habet in homine Man can not be greater then God to louse the impenitent whom God bindeth neither can the seruaunt who hath no commission remit in part or forgeue in the whole with his indulgence that which by so great a fault was committed against the Lord least furthermore to the fallen person be added this cryme also if he be ignoraunt that it was forespoken Cursed is the man that hath his trust in man Mat. 10. Dominus orandus est Dominus nostra satisfactione placandus qui negantem negare se dixit Our Lorde must be prayed vnto our Lorde must by our satisfaction be pacified who hath saide that he will denie his denier His seconde Epistle is to those Martyrs in prison instructing them not to giue pardons them selues nor to appoynt the Bishops so or so to pardon him and his and him and his but to make their suite for those whose Poenitentia est Satisfactioni proxima penaunce is very nighe to satisfaction that is almost all fulfilled and to remitte the matter to the Bishoppes power Note the antiquitie of pardons sicut in praeteritum semper sub Antecessoribus nostris factum est As in time past alwayes it was done vnder our predecessors And yet Epistle 54. the Councell giueth a plenarie to all the Deniers at once that were doing their penaunce because of another persecution at hande Epistle 52. he sheweth Clerus Romanus Sede vacante appoynted that the like pardon should be geuen to euery one in extreme sicknes But I forget my selfe to alleage so much béeing here onely to answere vij Of Purgatorie This Chapter is growen to such length and yet is Purgatorie behinde But the gentle Reader will consider I trust howe lightly any beast may trouble the pure water but that it is not so soone cleared agayne not doubting also but the varietie passeth away his wearinesse As I am likewise studious of method to put all in conuenient order for the same cause And the order that in this part I thinke good to follow is to speake first of the Churches practise and then of particular Doctors Of the Canonicall memento of Oblations and of Sacrifice for the dead practised by the Church First then to proue that for a certayne space after the Apostles there was no praying for the dead at least in some Churches this Companion reasoneth ab authoritate negatiuâ— negatiuely of the authoritie of Iustinus Martyr and of Tertullian to which I must ioyne Origen Epiphanius and a Councell of Spayne though him selfe vnmindfull in one place what he saith in another playnly 〈…〉 Puâ— â— affirmeth that such an argument euen of all mens authoritie is false Therefore thus he saith Seeing it is certayne by testimonie of Iustinus Martyr that there was no mention of the dead in the celebration of the Lords Supper 〈…〉 for more then an hundred yeres after Christ we must not beleeue Chrysostome without Scripture affirming that it was ordeined so by the Apostles Wel then Chrysostome your elder ones affirmeth it as more at large you confessed the same in the 3. and 7. Chapters but you and certain of the contrarie by his elder Iustinus What be Iustinus his words Where you recite them you say agayne Pur. 259. By which it is manifest that in those first and purer days there was â—o mention at all of Sacrifice for the dead But no word so in Iustinus Yea in reporting there the order of the 〈◊〉 â—ist he saith expresly that the Bishop is long about it Iust Apol. 2. in fine you also after he is comâ—â—o Consecration And when he hath ended Those prayers and the Consecration all do answerâ— Amen as also at this day we sée at the later Eleuation where the Consecration is concluded In that long space you can find no time for memento domine defunctorum But certayne it is and manifest say you that there was none and that Chrysostome and al his felowes must not be beleued You might as wel say that in S. Augustines time also there was no mention of the dead Aug. epist 59. q. 5. because he also reporteth sometimes the summe of the Canon without naming the dead yea that your owne
hence there is now no place of penance no effect of satisfaction Here life is either lost or saued Here euerlasting saluation is procured by the worshipping of one God and by the fruitfulnes of faith This forsooth is that which can not stande with the Papists opinion of Purgatory By this forsooth appereth what Cyprians iudgement was of Purgatory and the effect of satisfaction after this life And againe because exhorting there Demetrianus him selfe Proconsul of Africa to repeÌ„tance which had bene so you say deceitfully Chaunging as though he now were conuerted for that you should haue said which presently was a wicked man and a persecutor of the Christians he saith to him Tu sub ipso licet exitu vitae temporalis occasu c. Do thou although it be but a litle before thy end and setting of this temporall life pray for thy sinnes to the God which is the one and true God Confessionem fidem agnitionis eius implores Do thou humbly call for confession and faith of acknowledging him he alludeth to the ceremonie quid petis Fidem Venia coÌ„fitenti datur credenti indulgentia salutaris de diuina pietate conceditur Pardon is giuen to him that confesseth and healthfull forgiuenes is graunted by Gods goodnes to him that beleeueth Et ad immortalitatem sub ipsa morte transitur and euen at the poynt of death is passage to immortalitie Because Christ doth quicken him that is mortall by the heauenly regeneration viuificat mortalem regeneratione coelesti This which is so expresly written of the Infidels in hell and of Baptisme to pretend it as you do to be written of the faithfull in Purgatory and of penance after Baptisme argueth playnly that either you sawe not the place in S. Cyprian or rather that séeing you would not sée Of the same sort it is that Pur. 82. Cyp. de Lapsis where S. Cyprian speaketh of Deniers of Christ in persecution which would not afterward come to the Priestes to confession and saith Euery one I beseeche you brethren confesse his sinne whilest yet he that sinned is in this world whilest his confession may be receiued whilest satisfaction and remission facta per Sacerdotes made by the authoritie of the Priestes is acceptable with our Lord you gather therevpon and say If men can not satisfie nor Priest remit but whilest men are in this life then farewell satisfaction for the dead and Purgatory As though we hold that they which will not submit them selues to the Priestes in this life may be holpen after their death Or that confession may be made by the dead and satisfaction enioyned them and that béeing done absolution giuen them by the Priestes Againe it is of the same sorte which you alleage out of S. Chrysostome where first you confesse that he holdeth expresly Pur. 2â—1 prayers to profite the dead and alleageth Scripture for it your words I recited in cap. 3. and that notwithstanding say afterward Otherwise when he iudged vprightly according to the Scripture his words sounde cleane contrarie to the opinion of Purgatory and works of other men to be meritorious for the dead as in the very next Homily being the 42. in 1. Cor. Quapropter oro c. What a worthy S. Chrysostome was euery kinde of way I néede not to saye I can admire him I am not able to commend him sufficiently But what a base opinion haue you of him as also of so many others his peares to think him so grosse Caluins intolerable light hath marred Fulkes eyes to speake cleane contrarie to him selfe and that vpon one Epistle yea in the very next Homily You do herein nothing els but iustifie my saying in the beginning of this chapter that you can not in déede shew the Doctors to be for you against vs but that in déede you coÌ„fesse them to be with vs against you and pretend onely that they be agaynst vs in so much as they be pretensiuely against them selues But why did you not aswell say that D. Allen him selfe is against vs in that in the seuenth chapter of his second booke he sheweth Pur. 271. That the benefite of prayer almes apperteineth not to such as dye in mortall sinne For what els doth S. Chrysostome say in that long allegation of yours but that no friend no iust shall helpe him that dyeth in mortal sinne either committing euill that he ought to refrayne or omitting good that he ought to atchieue beséeching them therefore to conuert and amend and to get agaynst they dye good words of their owne to trust in before that Iudge Pur. 112. Ambro. in Psal 40. Likewise of S. Ambrose you confessed cap. 3. pag. 16. Ambrose in deede alloweth prayer for the dead And yet because he saith Bene addidit in terra quia nisi hic mundatus fuerit ibi mundus esse non poterit The Prophet did well to adde on earth for if he be not clensed here he can not be clensed from his mortall sinnes But the true translation is he can not be cleane there neither from his veniall sinnes though from them he maye be clensed there as also from the temporall debte of his remitted mortall sinnes yet I saye by these words it is playne inough with you that Ambrose allowed no purging after this life One place more or two you alleage more out of the same Doctor Pur. 106. with this note therevpon Thus saith Ambrose playnely in this place whatsoeuer he speaketh allegorically of the Fyerie sworde in other places as in Psal 118. Ser. 20. and in Psal 65. by occasion of which two places you graunt not long after that the Old writers opinion was Pur. 132. that all men were they neuer so iust passed through that fire into Paradise and were purified thereby because they ascribed to Purgatory fire those two operations the one whereof S. Augustine we as I said erewhile do doubt of All this notwithstanding the same Ambrose you say vpon Rom. 5. ouerthroweth Purgatorie in that it followeth of his words there Pur. 105. that no man feeleth paine after this life but he that shal feele it eternally And surely to the same effect he speaketh in his booke De bono mortis you say onely because cap. 4. where he concludeth that death in euery respect is good yea although a man haue liued yll and shall after death abye for it for also in that case non mors malum sed vita Not his death but his life was euill among others this cause he rendreth quia deteriorem statum non efficit sed qualem in singulis inuenerit talem iudicio futoro reseruat because it maketh not the yll state worse but such state as it findeth in euery one suche it reserueth to the iudgement to come Now who saith that Purgatory after death altereth the state of the euill to worse yea or also that it promoteth the state of the good to better
Protestantes side and iustification of our side so that whosoeuer will be saued must neither beleue them nor communicate with them as being Heretikes and Schismatikes but must be of our beliefe in all thinges and of our Communion as who haue both the trueth and the Church of Christ euen the same that our Auncetors to wit the Apostles and their Successors after them had in their seuerall times Which also was the totall summe of M.D. Allens Articles first and after them both of my Motiues Demaundes Neuerthelesse I haue thought good for the more manifest clering of all to haue this chapter aparte and folowing the order of my Demaundes one by one which if Fulke had done he had saued me some labour to sifte all in substance and effect that he hath said to D. Allens Articles in the former of his two bookes answering withall these few Scriptures and Doctors of his which in the two last Chapters I pretermitted and reserued to this place By this the Reader shall sée euidently the force of ech one Demaund how much more of all to heare the Protestantes quite downe considering that all is nothing which this felow in both his bookes could either answere vnto them or obiecte against them Specially if he will first reade ouer euery Demaund as it lyeth in my booke and then that which here is correspondent vnto it 1. Collatio Carthaginensis touching the Church of the Scriptures FIrst therefore by reason of their triuiall position of Onely Scripture in all questions for the which notwithstāding they haue neither Scripture nor Doctor as I haue sufficiently declared cap. 8 pag. 110. and cap. 9. pag. 171. to 183. and because the question of the Church is of all other the principall as one which being agréed vpon and so the House of saluation found all brable is at an end also by Fulkes owne confession here cap. j. Whether it can not erre as we say or may erre as they say Herevpon in my very first Demaunde on the one side I aske them as S. Augustine did the Donatistes some euident Scripture for their Church that is to say for Luthers piece or for Caluines piece of Luthers piece on the other side I point them to very many most euident Scriptures for our Church in S. Augustines two books against the Donatistes de Collatione Carthaginensi and de vnitate Ecclesiae that is to say for the Church beginning at Hierusalem Act. 1. like the litle musterdseede Mat. 13. and growing and spreading thence ouer all Nations ouer S. Augustine and his felowes in the Christian Nations of their time and ouer vs and our felowes in the Christian Nations of our time and so forth to the end of the world Now Fulke wheresoeuer he maketh mention of the saide Carthage Conference c. What doth he doth he reply and shew that the same most euident Scriptures make for his Church or that they make not for S. Augustines Church and our Church that is for the visible Church of all Christian Nations yea like a blind buzzard he there ouerthroweth quite his owne Church and plainely confirmeth ours as I haue noted cap. 9. pag. 176. to 183. in the question of Only Scripture vpon the places of S. Augustine which he there alleageth requiring and bringing Scriptures for the Church And as I offer cap. 7. pag. 106. to shew more copiously if he dare ioyne with me vpon this Demaund and stand to S. Augustines Disputation at Carthage c. and to the euident Scriptures there recited as cōcerning this questiō of the Church And as towching certaine darke and obscure Scriptures such as S. Augustine would haue to be set aside in this question the Donatistes in déede alleaged some suche for their Church that is for Donates piece cut of from the Church of all Nations But for Luther or Caluines piece Fulke hath alleaged neither so much as any such Howbeit against our Church he hath aleaged some such But I haue cap. 8. pag. 124. to 133. most cléerely shewed that neither they make any whit at all against our Church as neither certaine expositions of some Fathers cap. 9 pag. 155 and that they make vnauoideably against the Protestantes Being readie to shew the like in those more euident Scriptures also which the Donatistes alleaged against our Church if Fulke list to repeate them and in any other likewise that he can alleage 2. Building of the Church amid persecution In the 2. Demaund I reporte S. Chrysostomes argument which is not his onely yea it is the Scriptures against the Iewes and Paynimes to proue that Christ is God because no Persecution of theirs or any others could or can suppresse Christes Church though in the first beginning of it it were so poore and smal and they so mightie and cruell against it but that it hath and shall continually stand in the sight of the world mauger all the Gates of Hell Now Fulke to this argument hath answered nothing nor to the Doctors and Scriptures that make it The Iewes and Paynimes are not yet so much beholding vnto him Marie an obiectiō against it I graunt may be made of the texte of the Apocalypse here cap. 8. pag. 124. as you alleage it and vnderstand it to wit that the Persecution of Antichrist shall driue the Church into the Wildernes that is you say into a secrete place out of the open sight of the world Fulk a falsarie there to remaine for a long season But I haue there declared manifestly by the text it selfe that both in your alleaging you play the falsarie putting a long season for a very short season and in your vnderstanding a deprauer of Scripture to your owne damnation expounding that which is ment of fleeing in heart to God in time of worldly desolation to be meant of becomming corporally inuisible 3. Going out Motiue 18. Thirdly I demaunde of them to shew when we went out of the foresaid Church of al Christian Nations séeing they denie vs to be still within it As we say and the world seeth and Fulke him selfe confesseth here cap. 7. pag. 103. that they are departed from our Church and goeth about to yéelde a cause for their so doing Whereas by S. Augustine whom him selfe alleageth here cap. 9. pag. 177. as it were agaynst our separating of our selues from them which is one of his grosse contradictions and this also no better Ar. 66. that we Catholikes are departed from the Gretians it is impossible for any to haue a iust cause to Separate them selues from the said Church In so much that no companie can be named from the very beginning of the same Church which so did and obstinately stoode in it as they do but it was Schismaticall Yea and against his imagined Church in the wildernes here cap. 8. pag. 124. we are expresly warned If they saye vnto you Ecce in deserto est Beholde Christ is in the wildernes nolite exire do not goe out Matth.
Heresie but it was so contradicted howsoeuer the Fathers were at the same time otherwise occupied And we shew that these supposed Heresies were not as you blaspheme taken into the Church by emulation of Paganes or Heretikes as here cap. 6. pag. 36. to pag. 56. In how many places doth S. Augustine say that Origens heresie of the Damneds saluation after a while was ioyned with a certaine humane pietie And yet who knoweth not how the Origenistes for all that were most ernestly and continually resisted And the like may be shewed in all the like that as well the Heresies which had a shew of pietie and charitie were faithfully resisted as the others no Heresie at all lacking some shew for the time And howsoeuer now you make a small matter of prayer for the dead Cap. 11. coÌ„tradict â—1 in the next Chapter after your vsuall maner of contradicting your selfe you will make it equall to the greatest most blasphemous against Christ and against God and occasion of most licentious wickednes in all that belieue it c. Besides that the Fathers in déede withstood your friend Aerius who would haue entred with the contrarie and likewise all those other knowen friends of yours the old Heretikes Had they for all their being occupied against those horrible Heresies leasure to withstand trueth and had they not leasure to withstand corruptions of trueth You thinke your folowers very béetles if you hope to blind them with such grosse conueiance But you haue also Scripture forsooth to couer your iuggling Ar. â—8 2. Thes 2. For when the Scripture telleth vs that the Mysterie of iniquitie preparing for the General defection Reuelation of Antichrist wrought euen in S. Paules time it is folly to aske whether sodenly and in one yere and consequently with much preaching against it Ar. 43 all Religion was corrupted Against your blaphemous vnderstanding of this texte as if it said that the Church of Christ wrought the mysterie or preparation of Antichrist I haue replied cap. 8. pag. 121. But now whosoeuer wrought it doth your text say that ther was then no preaching against it No such word Besides what a mad imagination is this of yours that if all Religion had bene corrupted in one yeare then the Pastors would haue cryed out against it but being wrought by litle and litle they either could not espie it or were content to winke at it For who séeth not in the Ecclesiasticall Histories and other monumentes of Antiquitie that they gaue warning vigilantly and faithfully as well against those Heretikes that would haue corrupted but one or a few Articles as against those others that sought to corrupt many or all So haue they done all the time of the mysterie against all the Heresies that from the beginning haue wrought it 1. Ioan. 2. couertly therein seruing Antichrist them selues also therefore termed Antichristes So they do now also being the time of the defection or Apostasie though not Generall S. Paule doth not so call it of which Antichristian Mysterie you Protestants are the workers as I haue declared cap. 8. pag. 124. to .133 And after all the mysterie when his Reuelation coÌ„meth shall that at least passe vncontrolled You according to the blasphemies of your Apostasie do make that Antichrist is long agoe reuealed to the which I haue in the same place answered moste irrefragably by the Scriptures them selues that you abuse But now whensoeuer his Reuelation be doth any text say that there is then no preaching agaynst him Ar. 36. 2. Thes 2. Mat. 24. Apoc. 12. For so you say When the comming of Antichrist was in all power of lying signes and wonders in so muche that if it were possible the very Elect should be deceiued and a generall departing from the fayth was foreshewed and the Church to be driuen into the wildernesse What maruell were it if none of our Church could preach against it as it first entred As though the Scripture were not playne that not onely as he shall enter when the time of his Reuelation commeth but also euen during the whole time of his raigne there shall be open and stoute preaching against him ouer all the worlde with moste mightie working of true Miracles agaynst his lying wonders and moste constant resisting of him to bloud and to death though his tormentes and tormentors be neuer so horrible and Satanicall As I haue partly noted in the same 8. chapter pag. 124. to 130. All this you haue said to defend that our Religion might be false and of a later entraunce Ar. 36. although it were not gaynesaid at the first entring of it As for that which you say of preaching and writing agaynst the Popes authoritie when it first began it is answered aboue cap. 9. pag. 157. Now on the other side that your Religion is not false though it were withstood by the true Pastors in Aerius Iouinianus c. this you say Pur. 413. They that defended that Heretikes should not be baptized were withstood by Cyprian and all the Bishops of Affrica who were in the vnitie of the Church yet were they not heretikes nor their opinion heresie Much forsooth to the purpose Were withstood you should haue added at their first arising and preaching But then you had marred your example your selfe For their opinion did not then first arise but came by lineall tradition from the Apostles And the contrary opinion of Agrippinus and his successor S. Cyprian did then first arise and was withstoode by Pope Stephanus c. who (a) Aug. de bap cont Don. li. 5. ca. 23. wrote and commaunded (b) Vincen. Lirin ca. 9. apud Cyp. epist 74. nihil nouandum nisi quod traditum est to make no innouation but keepe the Tradition And therfore it was an heresie and they that helde it obstinately as afterward the Donatistes and Luciferians were Heretikes and the (c) Eus li. 7. ca. 2.3.4 Niceph l. 6. ca. 7. Hier. coÌ„tra Lucif Bed l. octo quest q. 5. Aug. coÌ„tra Cresc li. 3. ca. 1.2.3 de Bap. li. 2. ca. 4. Ep. 48. Catholiks recanted it both in Africa in Phrygia though S. Cyprian him selfe peraduenture was martyred in the meane time But yet you haue in store one example about this rule to dorre vs withall and to shew that (d) Ar. 93. the Romish Church can well inough abide the true Religion of Christ to be damnably abused by wicked men not only without open or priuie reprehension but also with allowing Which is no worse theÌ„ you hold here of the true auncient Church which you cal your owne But your example out of Matthaeus Paris is cleane agaynst your selfe For it sheweth manifestly that neither those Friars preachers which attributed too much to Religion or life Monasticall nor those Parisian Doctors which detracted too muche from it lacked their reprehenders among the Catholikes as they were all vntill some of the Doctors afterwards proued obstinat heretiks And that
then to the Arrians to be an Homousian If you Sacramentaries or Caluinistes delight not in the name of Protestants the Lutherans do and stand as earnestly against you vppon their senioritie for that name as we do stand agaynst you both vpon our senioritie for the name of Christians of Catholikes But your confessing of the name on the one side and yet saying on the other side that your true Christians delight not in it Ar. 65. Infra ca. 11. cont 50. Ar. 65. as also that they desire to be called Christians without choosing any other name I reserue to the place of your cōtradictions But of vs you say as much They can not be content with the name of Christians but choose vnto them selues new names after the calling of their Sect-masters as Franciscanes Dominicanes Benedictins Gilbertins Augustinians Scotistes Thomistes Albertistes c. This is answered in my Demaunds Motiues as all the rest also in effect Yet I say againe to it A Sect importeth a diuision Now what diuision is betwene those Catholikes and vs the other Catholiks that haue none of those names Be we not all of one faith and of one communion So easily is your accusation wyped away and not onely from vs I say who haue none of those names but also from our brethren who haue them They be not of that sort as the name of Christians and therefore by Logike you know not priuatiuely opposite therevnto But suche are these Arrians Pelagians Lutherans Caluinistes Protestantes Because being before of Christ of his vnitie of his communion all called Christians they for some matter either of faith or other diuiding themselues frō the same follow the communion or felowship of Arius of Pelagius of Luther of Caluin of those Protesters Why then are those our brethren so named if S. Augustine S. Benet S. Frauncis S. Dominike if S. Thomas and Scotus were not Sect-masters I answere the first sort because they professe to liue after the rules of those principall Abbots the other sort because they hold certaine Scholasticall questions which either can not be matters of faith or els as yet be not because they be not yet defined by the Church according to the opinions of those principall Schole Doctors 9. Conuersion of Heathen Nations Motiue 25. Article 1. My nienth Demaund doth note who are after the Apostles the Conuerters of all Nations from Paganisme whom the Scripture calleth the witnesses of Christ to the extremes of the earth Act. 1. to wit we and not the Protestants According to Tertullians most singular obseruation speaking of Heretikes and saying As touching the ministerie of the word Tertul. de Praesc what should I speake considering that this is their endeuour non Ethnicos conuertendi sed nostros euertendi Not to conuert the Heathen but to subuert our people This glory they do more seeke after Si stantibus ruinam non si iacentibus eleuationem operentur To work ruine to such as are standing and not raysing to such as are lying And so Fulke may glory I do not denie as he doth also where he saith Ar. 33. Ar. 95. The Land of Bohemia was conuerted by Iohn Hus and Hieromyn of Prage Againe in another place And at this day the most part of Europe is conuerted from Idolatry Heresie and Antichristianitie such he counteth the Catholike faith vnto the same true faith that we mainteine as in England Scotland Ireland Fraunce Germanie Denmark Suetia Bohemia Polonia by publike authoritie in Spaine and Italie a great number vnder persecution and tyrannie That is your glory in déede that you haue subuerted many in many Christian nations We can not so glory nor you can not shew that we haue done the like in any Nation although you say with a brasen face Ar. 3. It is certayne that the Popish Church hath peruerted and corrupted al parts of the Latine or Westerne Church with Idolatry and false religion But that you haue conuerted any Nation from Paganisme you do not nor you can not boast But the truth is although you say that we haue not cōuerted the Nations to Christes faith Pur. 460. but peruerted all nations from the faith of Christ that our Church that is to say the Cōmunion of S. Peters Sée Apostolike or the church beginning visibly at Hierusalem and visibly growing on to this day is she that conuerteth al Pagane Nations to be Christians not only at this present so many nations of both the Indies and in Afrike item so many others that this last thousand yeres haue bene conuerted thrée wherof you name Liuonia Prussia Lithuania Ar. 3.85 with this lying censure that we conuerted them by force of armes rather then by preaching and teaching but also all them that were conuerted either in the 500. yeres afore that or also in the Apostles time it selfe Against this cleare trueth what mist haue you to cast Forsooth not we but certaine Heretikes Schismatikes conuerted some nations to the profession of Christes name Ar. 2.3 though to false religion Do you graunt that it was to false religion yet bring that for an instance It is an euident argument that you had no instance in the nations that we cōfesse to haue bene conuerted to the true faith of Christ Was not this scope inough for you reason inough for vs when we say as in my Demaund you may sée that it was our Church by which all Nations were conuerted or corrected to the true faith of Christ And yet also for your said instancies where you quote your Authors they shall be answered In the meane time I quote to you Eus li. 2. ca. 1. reporting the conuersion of Ethiopia to haue bene of the right stampe according to Psal 67. and Act. 8. which two places he there doth cite Ar. 2.3 because you to shew that the true Church of Christ did not conuert all do say For in Aethiopia there are yet people conuerted by the False Apostles whiche taught circumcision obseruation of the Law in which heresie they continue vnto this day Who should tell that better then the Ethiopians themselues whom we sée to haue their house at Rome and to be Catholikes And your selfe do saye in another place Pur. 357. that their Liturgie doth sauour playnly the vsage of the Greke Church Their Emperour did his obediēce to Paulus III and also an Ethiopian Abbot which Abbot in his Epistle dedicatorie before the rites of their Baptisme Liturgie doth expresly inueigh against them that did falsly report of them as not Catholikes and obedient subiects to the Sée Apostolike much reioysing therein and desiering that they might be so taken Howbeit I denie not but there might be some corruption though not of heresie peraduenture but for lacke of frée conuersing béeing intercluded by the Turkes and Saracenes and often oppressed by Tyrants and Infidels of their owne with the Romane Church In qua semper ab ijs qui sunt
his doctrine But cleane contrarie we finde so playnly for the Pope and for euery poynt of his doctrine that you are faine to put the reuelation of Antichrist and the disparition of the Church here cap. 2. at the very time of our conuersion For which cause also you refuse as we saw before to be tryed by Bedes historie Pur. 333. telling our countreymen that they were better to consider the Acts of the Apostles and saying in another place that you waye not worth a slye that which D. Allen telleth out of Beda For who séeth not there our Religion most playnly and namely for (a) Beda hi. li. 1. ca. 24. Greg. li. 12. epist 15. the Popes authoritie and (b) Beda li. 1. ca. 25.27.29 Masse the very poynts that your Saxon Homilies do impugne But what saye we then to those godly monuments Who can not say and sée that if they were such as you make them they should not all this while be kept vnprinted neither should that which was printed so soone and so diligently haue bene called in againe for why either they conteine not suche matter as you report or they be but of some of these late Wiclesistes making such as by your owne saying are yet common to be seene Disproue my coniecture if it be wrong Ar. 34. and then you shall sée whether I can reply 10. 12. Myracles and Visions Unto these two Demaunds I couple two others of Myracles Motiue 5.6.7 and of Uisions noting that the very Scriptures do by them commend vnto vs Christ him selfe his Apostles with their successors the conuerters of all Nations and their doctrine and saying accordingly that the Miracles and visions of our Church are infinite Pur. 166.331.333 Greg. Dial. li. 4. ca. 24. Et Epist l. 7 ep 30. li. 9. ep 58. mora l. 27. c. 6. in Iob. 36. Damas ser de defūctis Beda hist li. 1. c. 31. l. 3. c. 13. li. 4. c. 21. li. 5. c. 13. alleaged also by the Doctors against the Iewes also Paynims to conuert them to Christ Wheras the Protestants haue not all this while bene able so much as to heale a lame horse though Luther and Caluine as we reade in their liues namely set out in French attempted wonders Now what saith Fulke to this The examples out of Gregorie Damascene Bede you may spare for your frendes there is none of vs that maketh great account of them Againe I force litle what Augustine our Apostle of whose Miracles and holines S. Gregorie also whose Monke he was doth testify as also of his learning Hebrew psalters written with his owne hand which you count a high poynt c. wrought to confirme his errors neither do I waye worth a flye that long tale you tell out of Beda of him that had his cheynes fallen of in Masse time that credulous and superstitious age had many such fayned Myracles Againe You leape but 600. yeres from Christ to Gregories Dialogues from which time I wil not deny but you may haue great store of such stuffe as you haue miracles now in Flaūders of the honest woman of the old Bayly in London Happy it were for you and you were so honest Neither when she was in Heresie was she vnhonest for ought that I haue hard and the Miracle euen as I tell it in my Motiues is most gloriously knowen at Bruxelles You should haue better played the Doctor of Diuinitie if you could haue informed the simple how to know fained Miracles from vnfained and why Miracles vnfained may not be after S. Gregories time aswell as before You will tell them as here cap. 2. that straight after his time was the Reuelation of Antichrist Pur. 336.338 and that these were and are his lying signes and wonders 2. Thes 2. such as errours had alwaies great plentie to establish them withall This is the very bones and marrow of your new Gospell and yet all worm-eaten and rotten For first what Scripture telleth you that after the Reuelation of Antichrist supposing it at that time whiche you wold haue there shal be none but fained Miracles Apoc. 11. telleth me the cleane contrary Secondly why cannot you for the defence of Christ his true Miracles against the Infidels discouer the fainednes of Antichrist his wonders whereas we discouer the lying of all fond Miracles which sundry errours though not in such great plentie haue pretended Thirdly what Scripture telleth you that the time of Antichrists reuelation was so long agoe It telleth me the cleane contrary as I haue most euidently declared cap. 8. pag. 125. Discouering therewithall your grosse falsation of the Scripture to racke it to your blasphemous purpose A wise Reuelation that was yet so many hundred yeres hidden and the partie reueled taken yet for Christ his owne Uicare Consider their absurdnesse No no syr you that be mysticall Antichristes may of fooles be mistaken and thought to be the Ministers of Christ Iesus but your Lord in proper person shall shew himselfe openly ynough and expressely against the onely Christ our Lord and Sauiour Iesus not so much as desiring to be thought of his side Fourthly what say you then at the least to our infinite Miracles afore S. Gregories time as those whiche S. Augustine De Ciuitate Dei li. 22. ca. 8. reherseth to the Paganes wrought by the Relikes of the first Martyr S. Steuen after many particulars euen six Resuscitations of the dead saying generally Si enim Miracula sanitatum vt alia taceam modò velim scribere quae per hunc Martyrem id est gloriosissimum Stephanum facta sunt in colonia Calamensi in Nostra plurimi conficiendi sunt libri For if I would write but the Myracles of healings to omitte the others which by this Martyr that is by the moste glorious S. Stephen haue bene wrought but in two Cities Calama and Hippo where his familiar friende Possidonius and him selfe were Bishoppes very many bookes were to be made What Scripture haue you agaynst these Myracles Either you must remoue the comming of Antichrist so muche higher which a litle thing would make you to do or els you must bring your blind followers some text that testifieth his lying Myracles to go also so long before his comming and the workers of them for him to be the very Martyrs and ministers and true Church of Christ him selfe For els how will you nowe defend that our Church hath no true Myracles Ar. 85. but the power of Antichrist in lying signes and wonders As for your censure of Myracles and Uisions that what soeuer is consonant to the word of God is to be receiued Pur. 163.333 that which is not agreable therewith is to be detested although an Angell from heauen were the bringer of it as though these were agaynst the trueth of God vttered in the holy Scriptures All this hangeth but vpon the twyned thréede of your owne poore worde though you say neuer
so much that it is briefly and playnely so set foorth in the worde of God as I haue shewed in the eyght chapter answering all the textes that you peruert for Onely Scripture namely that text of an Angel from heauen pag. 110. And the place also of Saint Augustine chapter 9. pag. 181. Pur. 333. In so much that where you say therevpon He will not allowe Myracles and Visions for sufficient proofes without the authoritie of the Scriptures you do shamefully abuse your Reader for he saith expresly that whatsoeuer such things are done in the Catholike Church as he there also mentioneth many generally and some particularly therefore they are to be allowed because they are done in the Catholike Church And you graunt that these of S. Augustines reporting were done in the Catholike Church Ergo by S. Augustine euen in that place you must allow them and so condemne your owne Religion Motiue 26. 13.15 Honour of Crosses and of Saintes 14.16 Vertue of Crosses and of Saintes 17. Exorcismes 18. Destroying of Idolatrie In the next fiue Demaundes I report certaine argumentes made of the old Doctors in their bookes against the Paynims to proue that Christ is God and not their Idolles by certaine pointes of our Religion as the Soueraigne Honor both of his Crosse and of his Saintes and the miraculouse power not onely of them two but also of his Church in her ordinarie exorcismes requiring the Protestantes to helpe here the Paynims if they be eyther able or not ashamed and also in the next Demaund bidding them open their eyes at length and beholde that our Religion hath bene and is the bane of Idolatrie yea and those very pointes of our Religion which their peruerse blindnes counteth and calleth Idolatry it selfe To all this Fulke had nothing but like a Cuckow You haue not saith he destroyed Idolatry Pur. 460. but set vp Idolatrie Not waying what I tell him according to the prophets that we haue so throughly conuerted al Nations from Idolatrie that we haue made them forget also the names of their Idolles Motiue 41. Article 10. 19 Kinges My 19. Demaund is of the Christian Emperours and Kinges of whose conuersion together the Scripture speaketh expresly and of the conuersion of Nations The chiefe of them Fulke nameth here cap. 2. and confesseth with vs and for vs that they were of the true Church in the first 600. yeares yea and chalengeth them to haue bene of his Religion no lesse then we doe But what proufes doth he bring thereof Not one Neither doth he answere so much as any one of our proufes no not that which D. Allen alleageth Pur. 429. how Constantinus honored the Sentence of the Priestes Councell at Nice tanquam a deo prolatam as pronounced of God Pur. 313. Ruff. li. 1. ca. 5. yea he is faine to confesse that in the burial of Constantinus him selfe the very first Christian Emperour Eus in vita Const li. 4 c. 58.59.60.66.71 there was prayer for his soule according to the errour of the time being the time of the first Nicen Counsell In Eusebius is much more Sacrifice also for his soule with the intercession of the Apostles in whose honor it was offered at their Relikes in their Temple Pur. 312. and all by the procurement of ConstaÌ„tinus him self Again That the Emperour Theodosius Iunior prayed for his fathers and mothers soules Arcadius and Eudoria But the storie saith not quoth he that he prayed to S. Chrysostome for them as M. Allen thinketh The storie is Theodorets and his words are these Hist Trip. li. 10. c. 26. ex Theo. l. 5. c. 35.36 Pur. 222.226 Amb. super obitum Theod. And he setting his face and eyes vpon the shrine of that holy man made supplications for his parentes and prayed him vt veniam illis tribueret that he would pardon them the iniuries which of ignorance they had done him in working his death Againe as touching Honorius of the west brother to the said Arcadius of the East wher S. Ambrose saith Eius principis Theodosij Senioris et proximè conclamauimus Obitum et nunc quadragesimum diem celebramus assistente sacris Altaribus Honorio Principe We finished of late vpon the seuenth day this Princes Obite Theodotius Senior their father and now we celebrate his fourtyth day our Prince Honorius standing by the sacred Altares To this Fulke had nothing but partly to reprehend the thing as superstitious both in the Bishop and in the Emperour partely to inueigh blindly against D. Allens translation For Ambrose speaketh not he saith of his fortyth dayes minde but of the solemnitie of his funerall kept 40. dayes togeather As though the fortyth day is not one of the fortie and yet also how playnly he expresseth the singulare solemnitie of the fortyth day as of the Obite before saying And now we celebrate his fortyth day whereas others vse to kepe the Thirde day and the Thirtith which was and is the vse of the Romane Church But the Church of Millaine kept the seuenth day and the fortyth Al this considered who seeth not that aswel the Catholike Emperours within the first 600. yeres be against him as the others of later tymes and therefore that it is but a cast of his facing deceiuing arte that he saith Ar. 33.51 Before the generall Defection and Reuelation of Antichrist it is an easye matter to name you the Emperours and Princes of our Church as Constantine the great See the impudent Heretike them vvhâ—m he condemned before Iouinianus Valentinianus Theodosius Arcadius Honorius Martianus Iustinianus Mauritius diuers other But when the Kings of the earth had coÌ„mitted fornicatioÌ„ with the great Whore of BabyloÌ„ as the holy ghost foresheweth Apo. 17. 18. it is no preiudice to our cause if we cannot shew any of them that haue maintained our Religion Your malicious and ignoraÌ„t setting of the Defection Antichrists reuealing at the yere 607 I haue coÌ„futed cap. 8. pag. 126. by the Scriptures most manifestly But that you poynt the same time for the Kinges of the earth to haue fornicated with her your ignorance and malice surmounteth it selfe as it is euideÌ„t by that which I say there pag. 126. that Babylon is this world froÌ„ the beginning to the ending thereof and called a Whore for that it hath such alluremeÌ„ts wherevpon the same S. Iohn exhorteth vs in his Epistle 1. Ioan 2. and saith Loue not the world nor the thinges that are in the world The world is transitorie and also the coÌ„cupiscence of it And therefore in his Apocalipse he maketh her to sit vpon all the earthly worldly Kinges that euer tooke or shall take her parte against Gods Church But your blindnes could finde no earthly Kinges in the world but within these last 900. yeares yea none to be the Kinges of the Earth but those that be the Kinges of the Church and their fornicatioÌ„ to consist In humbly
maketh mention also of a Eus li. 7. ca. 19. the Hymnes of Nepos Theodoretus and Zosomenus of e Theo. lib. 4. ca. 24. Zoso l. 3. ca. 15. the Hymnes of S. Esrem in the feastes of Martyrs and S. Augustine very often of f Aug. retr li. 1. ca. 21. Confes l. 9. ca. 6.7.12 the Hymnes of S. Ambrose The Councell of Laod. doth no more but forbid priuatos vulgares Psalmos priuate and vulgar Psalmes made by simple men to be said in the Church as the g Con. Mil. ca. 12. Con. Cart. 3. ca. 23. Mileuitane Councell also commaundeth that no other prayers or collectes or Masses or prefaces or commendations or handlayings be said in the Church nisi quae a prudentioribus tractatae But such as haue bene examined by some more skilfull or allowed in the Synode least it chaunce something to be made against the faith or by ignoraunce or by negligence Likewise touching lessons the Councel of Laod doth no more but forbyd the Apocryphall Scriptures libros non Canonicos to be read sed solos Canonicos veteris noui Testimenti but the onely Canonicall bookes of the olde and new Testament Con. Cart. 3. ca. 47. Ar. 20. as also the .3 Councell of Carthage decreeth that beside the Canonicall Scriptures nothing be read in the Church vnder name of the diuine Scriptures for which cause both Councelles doth there declare which bookes be Canonicall and the Carthage Councell addeth also that the Martyrs Passions may be read when their anniuersarie dayes be celebrated These examples declare manifestly that you detest in our seruice euen those things which were in the seruice of the Primitiue Churche and all without cause and that it is an horrible blasphemie where you say If you demaund whence your Ceremonies VVhy then do you kepe them novv festiuall dayes feastes and varieties of Seruice did proceede I aunswere plainly out of the bottomlesse pit of Hell For touching dayes also which may be the last example of Fasting and Feasting you confesse cap. 3. pag. 13. and cap. 6. pag. 43. that Aerius and Iouinianus were condemned in the Primitiue Church for Heretikes because they denyed the dayes and merites of Fasting and the Scriptures that you obiect against the Fathers vs for it I haue aunswered cap. 8. pag. 140. to .143 Ar. 20. Likewise you confesse that Festiuall dayes were vsed in the Primitiue Church adding to shewe of what Church you be that they might haue bene omitted without any hurt of Christian Religion wel But they were not kept in honour of the Saints as they are of the Papistes for that is great Idolatrie as also to build Churches in the honor of Saintes but only for the memory of the martyres and other Saintes that their good life might be followed Whether for that onely let S. Augustine be witnesse where he saith The Christian people doth celebrate together the martyres memories with religious solemnitie Aug. cōtra Faust l. 20. ca. 21. Et ad exitandam imitationē et vt meritis eorum consocietur atque orationibus adiuuetur Both to stirre vp imitatiō and to be ioyned in felowship to their merites and holpen with their prayers Was not this to kéepe their memories in their honor also As againe it is manifest not onely by certayne places alleaged before but also in the very words that you alleage de ver Relig. cap. 55. Ar. 20.54 The saints must be honored for imitation not adored for religion Honoramus eos charitate non seruitute We honour the blessed Angels with charitie not with seruice Doth he not here expresly auouch their honoring As for your note that Seruitus is the same that Dulia is contrary to the Papists which will worship them with seruice called Dulia or Seruitus it is but your vnacquayntance in S. Augustines writings Reade De Ciuit. Dei li. 10. ca. 1. Seruitus Latria Latriam quippe nostri vbicunque sanctarum Scripturarum positum est interpretati sunt Seruitutē For whersoeuer in the holy Scriptures in Gréeke is put Latria our Latines haue translated it Seruitus And so you may sée that he vseth Seruitus for Latria not for Dulia as also he vseth Religio for thresceia béeing synonymum to Latreia But saith he speaking of cultus Deitati debitus the worship due to the Godhead Propter quem vno verbo significandū quoniam satis mihi idoneum non occurrit Latinum Greco c. Because to signifie it in one word I finde no Latin word apt ynough neither Religio nor Seruitus although in that booke De vera Relig. he so vsed them being yet but a Lay man I do where it is necessarie vtter my mind by the Greeke word Latria Lo I haue alleaged here no more but as an answere And yet I haue made it manifest that notwithstanding all his obiections yea also by his owne confession the Seruice of the Primitiue Church was ours and not the Protestants defending it also easily against his vaine cauils Ar. 38.40.49 Neither shal he euer be able to shew that any Church Latin or Gréeke Brytish or other had authenticall seruice but it was ours as D. Allen told him before Now as for the Language in which the Seruice is Seruice in Latine that maketh no difference in the Seruice it selfe For praying for the dead is all one whether it be in Latine or in English Yet because he holdeth that it ought to be in the vulgar tongues let vs sée what be his groundes thereof Ar. 49.40 We can easily shew it out of the Scripture so he saith but no word that he alleageth any where But bylike he meaneth the place to the Corinthians by which his fellowes do commonly reiect the Latin Seruice as if it were that miraculous gifte which the Apostle there calleth 1. Cor. 14. Loqui linguis to speake with tongues Which also he doth not reiect but moderate for the varietie of certayne much like to * Pur. 7. some Protestantes that thinke all learning to be the tongues Now if any learned man séeing it is not the seruice that S. Paule there speaketh of thinke yet that one may argue thence at the least a simili Let him consider first that so the maner of the simple Catholikes who praye to them selues priuately in the Latine tongue which they vnderstande not is not condemned but iustified For He that speaketh in a tongue speaketh not to men but yet to God And he that speaketh in a tongue doth also edifie him selfe in spirite that is in affect For if I pray in a tongue my spirite or affection prayeth though my vnderstanding be without fruite And therefore If thou blesse or giue thankes in spirite thou doest it well But if there be no Interpreter let him be silent in the Churche and speake to him selfe and to God The difference is onely this that those Corinthians receiued immediately of the holy Ghost such prayers
Deacons whom he likewise reiected thereby partly by a saying of S. Chrysostomes which I returned cleane agaynst him cap. 9. pag. 193. And yet confesseth the first Colledges of Monkes in solitarie places to haue béene of the Churche of God Ar. 52. and namely them at Bangor in Wales Saying further that they were as occasion serued taken to serue in the Church as appeareth by Chrysostome in his booke De Sacerdotio of Basilius who was a Monke with him Among the infinite vtilities that come to the Church by the Religious that is one to this day that the Church hath out of them most excellent Pastors as of late that worthy Pope Pius quintus who was a Dominicane besides infinite moe at all times as then S. Basill and S. Chrysostome Of this vtilitie and of all the rest your Heresie hath spoyled the Church of God in suppressing the Monasteries As for that you say they were nothing els but Colledges of Studentes any that is skilfull in antiquitie can tell that the number rather were no students at all and that their profession was then euen as it is now Witnesse S. Augustine telling of an euil Monke in his owne Monasterie Au. de bono perseue ca. 25. and saying Vsque adeo profecit in malum vt deserta Monasterij societate fieret * 2. Pet. 2. canis reuersus ad suum vomitum He did so much procede in euill that forsaking the felowship of our Monasterie he became a dogge that turneth backe to his vomite Of others also in another place that enter into Religion and finding there some euill brethren after their Vow go foorth againe through impacience Of such a one he saith Aug. in Ps 99. Paucorum hominum molestia irritatos dū non perseuerauit implere quod vouit fit desertor tam sancti propositi reus voti non redditi Being incensed with the vexation of a few persons whilest he doth not continue to fulfill that he vowed he becommeth a forsaker of so holy a profession and guyltie of not performing his vow In Colleges of students they are not Votaries I trow nor Apostataes when they geue ouer And therefore it is more wisdome for you to sticke to your old set song Pur. 297. that they haue no testimonie out of the word of God eyther of their names or of the signification of their names as your friends the Donatistes said long ago to our Catholike Fathers Aug. in Ps 132. Con. Petil. li. 3. ca. 40. Hier. cōtra Vigil Chrys adu vitup vitae Monasticae Ostendite vbi scriptū sit nomen Monachorum Shew vs in what place of the Scripture is the name of Monks But it is wel that the Donatistes Vigilantius and such like companiōs were the dispraysers of Monkes and their professiō And S. Augustine S. Hierome S. Chrysostome S. Paulinus with such like were their defenders yea and them selues Monkes also Of whom also you may learne in what Scriptures are found both their pouertie continencie obedience and also the vowing of the same So wisely you haue made your match Motiue 14. 26. Fathers The 26. Demaund noteth that none but Heretikes refuse to be tried by the Fathers in such maner as I declared ca. 6. pa. 58. to wit by their consent And that Fulke refuseth to be so tryed though he confesse them to haue bene of the true Church cap. 2. pag. 4. I haue shewed out of his owne words cap. 7. pag. 89. to 92. For the which he hath two pretences the one in charging the Fathers with sundry errors partly denied partly confessed of vs to be errors Which both sortes I haue answered cap. 6. pag. 39. to 43. The other in holding that Onely Scripture is of authoritie for which poynt notwithstanding I haue shewed that he hath neither Scripture to auouch it cap. 8. pag. 109. to 116 nor Father cap. 9. pag. 171. to 183. We on the other side as the Catholikes alwayes are content to stand to the iudgement of the Fathers which is for vs so plainly that Fulke doth confesse it in many poynts here cap. 3. and is fayne to refuse it as I now said And for the Protestantes in no poynt no not so muche as the iudgement of any one Father at all as I haue shewed cap. 9. in answering all that he alleageth out of them against vs. Or if any fewe testimonies be missing there it is because in some other Chapters they are answered more conueniently 27 Councels Motiue 13. The next Demaund is of Councels confirmed by the Sée Apostolike which as I haue said here cap. 6. pa. 60. can not erre And therefore none but Heretikes do obstinately resiste suche Councels But Fulke here to saue him self chargeth such Councels with errors those also which him selfe confesseth to haue bin of the true Church as the third of Carthage for whiche I haue answered cap. 6. pag. 62. and not onely those that are without his compasse of the first 600. yeres though for them also I haue answered in the same chapter pag. 63. to 78. Where I shewed that the Councell of Basill was not so confirmed as he pretendeth and therefore it might erre well ynough in deposing Eugenius quartus Ar. 91. howbeit also that is not such an error as he should bring vs to wit an error of doctrine For who doubteth but also the Pope himselfe may erre in deposing a bishop or a king Who doubteth also but a General Councel may vse that prayer when it endeth Precamur vt ignorantiae parcas errori indulgeas Ar. 90. We pray thee to spare our ignorance and to pardon our error fearing in their conscience least either ignorance hath drawen them into error or perhaps rashnes of will hath driuen them to decline from iustice As both euery general Councell and the vniuersall Church vseth this prayer Forgiue vs our trespasses Of which also you would no lesse inferre that the vniuersall Church may erre But you haue the answere cap. 8. pag. 117. to wit that they both do so pray by reason of certaine ignorances and fraylties of their members not for any false decrées or beléeuings of their whole bodies Ar. 89. Au. de bap cōt Donat. li. 2. ca. 3. And that which S. Augustine saith euen also of plenarie Councels which are made of the whole Christian world we say the very same Saepe priora posterioribus emendari That the former oftentimes be amended by the later yea and by the Sée Apostolike alone when they come to the Pope to be confirmed But what is this to proue that Councels already confirmed did erre in doctrine Euen in one Councell sometime the later Session doth amend the former Cum aliquo experimento rerum aperitur quod clausum erat cognoscitur quod latebat When by some experiēce is opened that which was shut or is knowen that which was vnknowen This is done in the Catholike Church with holy humilitie with Catholike
peace with Christian charitie And much more do Prouincial Councelles yeeld to the general sine vllis ambagibus without any more adoe and much more againe particulare Doctors And yet you with your swelling of sacrilegious pride with your stubbernes of arrogant Ventositie with your contentiousnes of peuish enuy will not yeeld neyther to Prouinciall nor to general Councel neyther after their confirmation and receauing so much more desperat then those Donatistes of whom he speaketh as they had one Doctor to wit S. Cyprian plainly of their opinion and you haue nere a one and yet will neither yéeld to all the Councels together but against them all come in with your ambages and aske But where is their Scripture as here cap. 7. pag. 89. thinking that you haue a witty deuise for this your tergiuersation when you say Pur. 430. The Councelles that are receiued are therefore receiued because they decreed truely and not the truth receiued because it was decreed in Councels Else why is the determination of the Nicene Councell which is but one beleeued against tenne Councels holden by the Arrianes but that the Nicene decreed according to the worde of God all the rest against it You might aswell say The Scriptures that are receiued are therefore receiued because they are written truely and not the truth receiued because it is written in the Scriptures Els why is the Gospel according to Mathew beléeued and not the Gospel according to the twelue but that the former is the word of God and the other is not But we say that the Scriptures being once receiued into the Canon and the Councels being once receiued by the Sée Apostolike what soeuer they say must be beléeued to be truth and that then none but Heretikes do make exceptions against them And that you therfore be an Heretike who not onely against all Councels so receiued for these 900. yeres but also against the very Nicene it selfe which you your selfe receiue do take your exception of Onely Scripture and that as it were by authoritie of S. Augustine cap. 9. pag. 179. and 173.180 Motiue 12. 28. See Apostolike Now for the Sée Apostolike it selfe which as it was the confirmer so was it both the gatherer with the Emperours helpe and also the President by the Patriarches and other Bishops and sometimes Priestes also béeing her Vicares of all approued Generall Councells what soeuer * Ar. 97. you or any other Heretike affirme to the contrarie without any testimonie I saye in my 28. Demaunde that none euer but Heretikes and Schismatikes did obstinately refuse eyther the fayth or the communion of that Sée Beholde two notable examples one vnder Pope Victor about the question of Easter the other vnder Pope Stephanus about the question of Heretikes Baptisme We shall catche this Ratte in them through his owne rumbling Victor anno 200. Ar. 27.36 Pur. 373. saith he was the first that went about to vsurpe authoritie ouer other Churches He passed the bondes of his authoritie in excommunicating of all the Churches of Asia Then manye Bishoppes withstoode him specially Ireneus of Lyons and Polycrates of Ephesus as a Eus li. 5. c. 23.24.25 witnesseth Eusebius But who sayth that he eyther vsurped authoritie or passed the bondes of his authoritie No doubte Polycrates and his fellowes of Asia would so haue sayd if they had béene of your opinion about the Bishop of Rome or if that Bishoppes authoritie ouer all had not béene in those Primitiue dayes a playne matter The Storie was thus The Churches of Asia minor had receyued of S. Iohn Euangelist to kéepe oure Lords Pasch or Easter day not alwayes vpon Sonday but with the Iewes vpon the 14. of the Moone In which custome the Bishops of Rome who had receiued of S. Peter and Paule the other maner did tolerate them so long as it tended to the honour of burying the Law and not to the necessitie of obseruing the Lawe But when they sawe that a b Niceph. li. 4. ca. 36. necessitie was put therein in so much that the other maner was condemned by the Iudaizing Heretike c Tertul. d◠Praes Eus li. 5. ca. 14 Blastus then loe they thought good to tolerate them no longer but S. Victor after that his b Niceph. li. 4. ca. 36. predecessours Pius Anicetus Eleutherius had sent out decrées against that maner and d Eus li. 5. ca. 22. all Bishops had ratified Decretum Ecclesiasticum the Ecclesiasticall Decree seing that they of Asia neither so obeied to walke vnto the truth of the Gospell vsing seueritie when it was high tyme commaunded them eyther to obey without any more adoe or to be depriued of the Churches communion Which censure of his did séeme to sharpe to S. Irenée and other Bishops of his owne obseruance As now also if he would excommunicate them which receaue not the Counsel of Trent it would séeme likewise to many who notwithstanding confesse that he hath authoritie ouer all But what was the end of the matter At length folowed the first Nicene Councel and confirmed the same that the Popes had commaunded in their Epistle to them of Alexandria writing this of the Asianes also You shall vnderstand Apud Theod. li. 1. ca. 9. that the controuersie of Easter is wisely pacified in so much that all our Bretheren that inhabite the East will now hereafter with one accord in keping the same followe the Romanes vs and all you So they promised the Councel And who so refused yet after that to do it were counted obstinate Heretikes Aug. Haer. 29. Soc. li. 6. ca. 10.20 Ar. 37. both in the Gréeke and Latine Church named testarescaidecaticai that is quartadecimane some such being yet in Asia in S. Chrysostomes tyme were by him as Bishop of Constantinople turned out of their Churches no lesse then the Nouatianes Lykewise saith Fulke towching the other case when Pope Stephanus threatned excōmunication to Helenus and Firmilianus and almost all the Churches of Asia because they thought that such as were baptized by Heretikes should be baptised againe Diony Al. ep ad Xystum Papā Succes Ste. apud Eus li. 7. ca. 2.3 4.5 he was misliked by Dionisius of Alexandria and diuers other godly Bishops Cyprian also reproueth him very sharpely for the same opinion accusing him of presumption and contumacie a Cypr. ep 74. Epist ad Pompeium And in his Epistle to b Cyp. epi. 71. Quintus he saith playnly that Peter him selfe was not so arrogant nor so presumptuous that he would say he held the Primacie and that other men should obey him as his inferiours You would make the Reader beléeue that he there saith Peter had not the Primacie wheras he saith expresly in the very same Periode Petrus quem primum Dominus elegit super quem edificauit Eccleam suam Peter whom our Lord chose the first and vpon whom he buylded his Church Neither he nor Dionysius nor Firmilianus denieth the Primacie
of Peter or of Stephanus his successor and a most glorious Martyr They thought that they had reason and Scripture on their side and the Pope nothing but authoritie and custome And therevpon when he had written and commaunded to the contrarie contra scripsisset atque praecepisset they made much a doe for a while and in anger as S. Augustine writeth poured out words against him But in the end Au. de bap con Dona. li. 5. ca. 23 25. when they must néedes eyther yéelde or be Schismatikes because he would tolerate them no longer they did like Catholike men they conformed their new practise for all their Councels both in Phrigia and in Africa to the old custome that the Pope obserued as I noted here in the 5. Dem. pag. 272. And at the last the Nicene Councel also gaue voyce with the Pope and condemned the Donatists who pretended to folowe S. Cyprian of Heresie for their obstinacie Therfore these are two notable examples of vnitie with S. Peters chayre as a thing most necessarie And generally al other Catholike writers that you do here cap. 9. pag. 218. or can alleage as it were against that Sée did sticke vnseparably to that Sée Aug. epist 166. Which S. Augustine for that cause calleth Cathedram vnitatis The Chayre of vnitie in which he saith God hath placed Doctrinam veritatis the doctrine of veritie But you for al this haue found a place in S. Hierom to breake this bond For you say vpon it Lo Syr here is Pur. 374. Hier. Euag. Hovv agreeth this vvith him selfe here cap. i. and ij a Churche and Christianitie and a rule of trueth without the Bishop of Rome without the Church of Rome yea and contrary to the Church of Rome Notably gathered For he saith the cleane contrarie Nec altera Romanae vrbis Ecclesia altera totius orbis existimanda est We muste not thinke that there is one Church of the Citie of Rome another of all the world But both is one And why because the Galles and the Brytons and Affrica and Persia and the Orient and India and all the Barbarous Nations Vnum Christū adorant vnam obseruant regulam veritatis Do worship the one Christ do obserue the one rule of trueth and so be not diuided from the one Church by any Schisme nor by any Heresie So perfect was the vnitie of all Catholikes at that time which agréeth handsomly with your imaginations of local yea vniuersall corruptions here cap. 3. Now in this vnitie of trueth yet was there diuersitie of vsages In Rome a Priest was ordeined at the Deacons witnesse which is now obserued euery where Therupon and specially for the great estimation of the Archdeacons some Deacons thought them selues higher in order then Priests S. Hierom saith therfore Quid mihi profers vrbis consuetudinem c. What bring you me the custome of the Citie If authoritie be sought the world is greater then the Citie And who doubteth but the vsages of the whole Church in vnitie be of greter authoritie then the priuate custome of Rome alone He telleth them also that a Bishop of the meanest Citie is eiusdem Sacerdotij of the same order as the Bishop of Rome of Constantinople of Alexandria And consequently that a Priest who by his order may do all things that be of order sauing onely giuing of orders is of another maner of order then a Deacon All this is most true and much for vs nothing for you You haue also a few textes of Scripture against this head of the Churches vnitie But by the argument ab authoritate negatiue which your owne Logike condemned here cap. 8. pag. 134. I would desire none other place in al the Scripture Ar. 29. c. but Eph. 4 of Apostles Euangelistes Prophets Pastors and Teachers And especially seing the Apostle both there and 1. Cor. 12. by these offices proueth the vnitie of mind he acknowledgeth no Pope as one supreme head in earth which might be very profitable as the Papists say to mainteine this vnitie Which he would in no wise haue omitted Pur. 450. c. Againe We beleue that the Catholike Church hath no chiefe gouernour vpon earth but Christ vnto whom all power is giuen in heauen and earth Mat. 28. Supreme head and chiefe gouernour be termes of your owne schole Belike therfore you would as a Puritane pull down also your owne setting vp specially * Suppose also one Christian king or Emperour to raigne sometime as far as the Church reacheth considering that Kings or Quéenes be no more then Popes named among S. Paules officers And truely you might also as an Anabaptist pull downe all Gouernours no lesse then the chiefe by that reason of Christes power ouer all You might also denie Euangelistes and Pastors which are named Ephe. 4. because they are omitted 1. Cor. 12. Likewise Powers Healers Helpers Gouernments Tongues Interpreters which are named 1. Cor. 12. with Apostles Prophets and Teathers because they are omitted Ephes 4. I must often say you vnderstande not the Scripture you do so often vtter your ignorance Our Sauiour did say after his Resurrection to his Apostles All power is giuen to me in heauen and earth to signifie that he might with good authoritie cōmit what power to thē he would inferring thervpon Ite ergo Go ye therefore and teach and baptize Eche of the tvvelue had Apostolike povver ouer all all Nations And to one of them singularly Feede my Lambes and my sheepe Wherefore S. Paule also in those two places doth say that all diuersitie of giftes and offices is Secundum mensuram donationis Christi according to the measure that it pleased Christ to giue to euery one and the holy Ghost to diuide to euery one as him pleaseth Therefore no cause why the lesser should enuy the greater or the greater despise the lesser Schismatically but all in vnitie content them selues with Christes distribution specially béeing so made by him for the necessitie and good of the whole He had therefore in suche places to expresse the diuersitie of greater and lesser but not necessarily of the greatest and least And yet to stoppe such Hereticall mouthes he saith 1. Cor. 12. expresly Non potest caput dicere pedibus The head vnder Christ can not say to the feete you are not necessarie vnto me Also Ephe. 4. in the name of Apostles he includeth the Successours of the Apostle S. Peter whose Sée for that cause is called The Apostolike See in singuler maner and their Decrees and Actes estéemed of Apostolike authoritie in all antiquitie I say of S. Peters authoritie to whose Chayre cōparing it with the Chayre of Carthage S. Augustine doth ascribe Apostolatus principatum The principalitie of Apostleship Apostolicae Cathedrae principatum Au. de bap con Dona. li. 2. ca. 1. Epist 162. The principalitie of the Chayre Apostolike which saith he hath alwayes florished in the Romane Church All this considered no reasonable man
can doubt but this present plague and thraldome of the Gréekes is fallen vpon them and the like or worse to fall vpon the like for their departing from the Church of Rome as it was foretolde them full often though you counte it false and vnreasonable so to say And why Pur. 396. because the Affricanes were plagued and subuerted for other sinnes So substantiall are your reasons As if you would say Ten Tribes were not subuerted for their Schisme because the two Tribes were subuerted for other sinnes 29. Traditions Motiue 9. The 29. Demaund mentioneth that the Apostles left to the Church not Onely Scripture as Fulke would proue by the Scriptures and Fathers here cap. 8. pag. 100. to 110. and cap. 9. pag. 171. to 183. which all I haue aunswered but also vnwritten Traditions wherof no one is against vs and many of them so directly against the Protestants that although he cōfesse them as for exāple the memorie of the dead in the Canon of the Masse to haue the most approued Fathers testimonie to be Traditions Apostolike here cap. 3. pag. 15. to 20. yet he is fayne to denie that eyther they or any Traditions at al be of the Apostle ca. 7. pa. 80. to 89. So as neuer did the Catholikes I say in this Demaund but onely Heretikes Pur. 383.409.412 But against this I find that he alleageth a saying of S. Irene as though by his iudgement we rather be Valentinian Heretikes who with the Fathers here cap. 3. 7. pag. 19. 84. besides Scripture do holde with Tradition of vnwritten verities And Lord how he croweth against D. Allen for alleaging the same saying against the Protestantes vpon their denying of the Machabées not considering that by S. Irenée there they no more be Heretikes who will haue Tradition then they who wil haue Scripture Iren. li. 3. ca. 2.3 S. Irenée him selfe as all Catholikes will haue both But those old Heretikes would in effect saith he haue neither Neque Scripturis iam neque Traditioni consentire c. They would yeeld neither to the Scriptures nor to Tradition For whē they be confuted out of the Scriptures they turne to accuse the Scriptures thē selues as though they be corrupted nor be not Canonicall and that they be ambiguous and that out of them can not be found the sincere trueth by such as know not the Tradition because that was not deliuered by writings but a certayne mingle mangle and the sincere truth by word of mouth Well then saith the Catholike let vs hardly try by Tradition What do they then they say that the Apostles either them selues knew not all things or that they taught their Successors of one sort in open place and these mens Patriarches in secret of another sort Cum autem ad eam iterum Traditionem c. And when againe to that Tradition which is from the Apostles which is conserued in the Churches by Successions of the Priestes we prouoke those Heretikes who are aduersaries to Tradition as the former were to Scripture they will say that they beeing wyser then not onely the Priestes but also the Apostles haue found the sincere truth Aduersus tales certamen nobis est O dilectissime Against suche we haue to fight O my dearest who as slipery as snakes seeke on euery side to flye What way shall we then take with them Traditionem Apostolorum in toto mundo manifestatam in Ecclesia adest perspicere omnibus qui vera velint audire He that list to heare lyes may séeke to these Heretikes and the secrete Tradition which they pretend But all that will heare the truth may in the Church see the Apostles Tradition whiche was published in the whole world Et habemus annumerare And we can reherse them who were of the Apostles ordeined Bishops in the Churches and their Successors euen vnto vs. Who taught nor knew no such thing as these men dote vpon For if the Apostles had knowen straunge mysteries which they taught the perfect Seorsim latenter ab reliquis apart from the rest and priuilie no doubt they would haue committed them specially to those to whom they committed also the Churches And then because it is to long he saith to rehearse al Successions he reckoneth the Successors of S. Peter and Paule in the greatest and auncientest and knowen to all men in the Romaine Church Whose Tradition which she hath from the Apostles comming euen vnto vs by Successions of Bishops we reporting confundimus omnes eos do confound all Heretikes and Schismatikes Et est plenissima haec ostensio And this is a most full demonstration that it is al one quickening faith which from the Apostles is kept in the Church till now and deliuered in trueth Loe now Syr who hath such yll grace to alleage the Doctors against him selfe For who denieth here cap. 9. pag. 165. the authoritie of suche Scriptures as are Canonized by the Church which himselfe confesseth to be the true Church Who also refuseth the Tradition and saith I say not by those Heretikes pretended but euen of the Apostolike Churches euen of the Romaine Church and not now onely but then also when your selfe do graunt that it was the true Church As for vs we reiect neither the Churches Scriptures nor the Churches Tradition but answere all that you detort to maynteine your Heresies and restore it to the right meaning 30 Their owne Doctors Motiue 16. That the Apostles and all men and things that be of them are against our Protestantes and in no poynt with them against vs it is many wayes shewed by the aforesaid Besides all these I note in the next Demaund also their owne masters and felowes namely Luther and Caluine to haue condemned them Such leaders hath our miserable Countrey chosen to followe forsaking the sure guydance of Gods Church in which our Forefathers together with the Catholikes of all other Countries so many ages before prospered in earth and atchiued to heauen 31.32.33 Vniuersalitie Antiquitie and Consent In thrée Demaundes following I do shewe that the rules of Vniuersalitie Antiquitie and Consent taught by Vincentius Lirinensis and the other Fathers doe make for vs and against the Protestantes Which is so playne that Fulke is faine to refuse those rules abusing a saying of S. Augustines as it were for Onely Scripture against them here cap. 7. pag. 80. and cap. 9. pag. 180. Motiue 10.11.28 Arti. 15.26 34. Authoritie The Protestantes finding the Primitiue Church whiche they dare not denie but it was the true Church here cap. 2. to be in many poyntes so playnly against them that they must confesse it them selues as here cap. 3. do hold that the true Church may erre vniuersally and also did erre cap. 3.4 And therefore make their exception against it also cap. 7. pa. 89. And that with pretence of Scripture to warrant their so doing cap. 8. pag. 117. vnto which I haue fully answered Herevpon in my 34. Dem. I affirme
ignorance and otherwise do liue in good works especially his welbeloued seruantes also praying for them Yet to damne such also because they be out of the Church is congruous to his iustice Yea for God to saue al the world is cōdigne to the merites of Christ yet he damneth innumerable because that it is condigne to their owne merites Thus while you went about to stayne Gods Church in vaine it is fallen out only by the way that you your selues are Messalians for denying the grace of the Sacraments Pelagians for denying the necessitie of Baptisme and Manichees for denying Frée-will This is all that you haue gayned 39 In confessed Heretikes onely Motiue 46 When we make the Protestantes to confesse as in the last Demaund that the Primitiue Church noted certaine to be Heretikes for holding their doctrine they set themselues against the Primitiue Church also such is their obstinacie say that those persons were not Heretikes therein We therefore not leauing them so if it be possible any way to open their eyes or at lest the eyes of the poore deceiued people do shew them as in this next Demaund that the same persons were Heretiks in other poynts also so playnly that we make them to confesse that also And neither yet will their hard stonie hartes relent Ar. 44. If Aerius had not bene an Arrian saith Fulk his opinion against praying for the dead could not haue made him an heretike though both Epiphanius of the Gréeke Church and Augustinus of the Latin Church do so register him Then what do we more We aske them Pur. 421. Why God openeth these mysteries alwayes and onely to suche as you your selues saith D. Allen to them can not deny to be Heretikes and not to Athanasius Epiphanius Augustinus or some other blessed men of that time but contrariwise leaueth these his elect and doctors of his Church in ignorance yea and with pertinacie condemning those true mysteries for soule Heresies and hath no body in the meane time to be their reformers but such as are infamous and of no credite by reason of abominable confessed heresies And do they yet relent No I warrant you Such a yoke it is to be once wedded to heresie And yet they haue no answere herevnto that may satisfy any man of reason as now we shal sée For thus saith Fulke vnto it Pur. 409.422.424 Ar. 44. What if any Heretike hath affirmed some thing that is true Is trueth worse in an Heretikes mouth The diuels them selues confessed Christ As though it were agréed that it was trueth which those Heretikes affirmed as it was agréed that he was Christ whom those diuels confessed No syr that is the question But if the diuels had said one thing and the Apostles the contrarie which then were like to haue bene the trueth For so the Catholike Fathers saide with vs and the Arrians said with you which therefore is like to be the truth You say truth hath testimonie of Gods word and whether it be affirmed or denyed by the diuell it is all one Mary in déede he that would defende the diuell saying agaynst the Apostles affirming that he can bring Gods word must néedes haue audience though he put vs to our trumps So you defending Aerius the Arrian Heretike against the Catholike fathers bringing Scripture do trouble vs forsooth as the reader hath séene here in the 8. chapter where I haue answered al your Scriptures as all must nedes be answerable that is brought against truth and so they find which reade our writings But because that way to reade all is long we tel such as would not make so great a iorney that they may be sure without more trauell that not to be of God the reuealer of all trueth which Heretikes held against the Catholiks as also that which the diuels might hold against the Apostles And the more because we reade that Christ and his Apostles cōmaunded the diuell to silence Luc. 4. Act. 16. when also he confessed trueth for proceeding out of his lying mouth it might as Fulke saith wel the sooner be discredited Whereas in our case by the saying of the Protestantes he commaunded the diuell and his Heretikes to teach the trueth and the Fathers to silence or rather not to silence but suffering them to resiste the trueth all that they could Pu. 422.421 But he can aunswere one question with another Why was it first reueiled sayth he to the Arrians in Councell that the Article of Christes discent into hell was meete to be added to the Crede which was not reueiled to so many godly men as set forth the Symbole nor to the holy Nicene Councell Answere me if you can He speaketh so of this matter without any quoting of Author as if it were a thing notoriously knowen Belyke it is receiued among them who would put it out of the Crede againe as a principle of their Aristotle and I who reade not their bookes but with leaue and for necessitie am not so well acquainted in their mysteries Perhaps a friends ghesse of mine is true that they say so because they find it in some Arrian Crede that is recorded in the Ecclesiasticall Storie Theo. li. 2. cap. 21. For it is found in déede in Theodorete that the false Nicene Arrian Synode saide in their newe Crede Crucified dead and buried descended into hell whom hell it selfe did tremble at According to the ydle or rather hypocriticall diligence of Heretikes who vse in Credes or confessions of their false doctrines to infarse some nedeles truethes Whereas the Catholike Nicene Councell thought it ynough in their Crede to repeate and explicate onely those Articles of the Apostles common Crede of which Articles Heretiks had as then made question Is not this then a substantiall cause to say that it was firste reuealed to the Arrians to put it in the Créede whereas it was before in the Apostles Créede Though also if it were true that the Arrians did first put it into the Créede what is that to our case They had not the Catholikes in that against them yea it was a common Article of the Catholikes faith The Articles of the Arrian Aerius were not such As also the Article agaynst Rebaptization which Article some Heretikes perhaps helde right when S. Cyprian and some other Catholike Bishoppes were deceyued in it But yet the Pope with the rest of Christendome helde it as they had it of the Apostles What is this to your Articles which onely olde wicked Heretikes did holde we saye against all Catholikes They were fitte Articles for Heretikes at all times but neuer for Catholikes as at this time also for Anabaptistes Seruetians or Arrians Suenkfeldians Pur. 421. all the others that you count Heretikes as well as we doe sayth D. Allen because they are their inheritance as well as yours descending from your common father Luther But for that wound also you haue a plaister if not to heale it
speake All is done still as it was in the Primitiue Church with the selfe same authoritie and with the same affection and discretion if the Iudges doe not swarue from the Churches Lawes 43. Succession Motiue 22. Article 8. Consequently in the next Demaund I say that the true Church must be descended by lineall and continuall Succession from the Apostles and that our Church is so descended and that the Protestantes Church is not so descended About this Fulke doth many wayes contradict himselfe as I will shewe in the next Chapter because he can not tell what to say vnto it Yet to helpe him as much as may be and as I doe vse euery where to frame his arguments to his purpose and to bring them into some order He may say two things first that they may haue the true Church although they haue not Succession secondly that we may lacke the true Church although we haue succession To the first he may referre these words of his owne vnto D. Allen Ar. 26. You are neuer able to proue that any suche orderly Succession according to persons and places was promised to the Church that we should shewe you the performance thereof in our Church Whether that can not be proued my first Demaund here will shew which declareth that S. Augustine hath already proued out of the Scriptures for vs that the Churche should beginne at Hierusalem and from thence grow ouer all Nations continually to the worldes ende as also with our eyes we sée that vnto this our time it hath done And euen the place which you goe about to answere proueth it playnly Continuall Succession of persons in the ministerie I say with D. Allen euen vntill Christes comming agayne Ephe. 4. Christus ascendens c. Christ ascending gaue giftes to men some to be Apostles some Euangelistes some Prophets some Pastors and Teachers to the completing of the holy for the worke of ministerie for the building of the body of Christ Donec occurramus omnes c. Vntill we meete all in the vnitie of faith and of the knowledge of the Sonne of God in a perfect man in the measure of the age plenitudinis Christi of the fulnesse of Christ that is Ephe. 1. of his Church He sayth so expresly vntill the finishing of the Church But that you would not sée you thought better to cauill and say The offices of the Apostles Euangelistes and Prophetes were not appoynted to continue alwayes in the Churche but for a time vntill the Gospell had taken roote in the world Why doe you not say the like of the other two Pastors and Teachers if they at the least were appointed to continue alwayes you sée a Succession of Persons And how can Saint Paules saying be otherwise verifyed vnlesse some of those fiue shoulde alwayes continue if not all as the wordes doe rather import For you séeme to deceyue your selfe by thinking that none are Apostles but the twelue none Euangelistes but the foure none Prophetes but the foretellers of things to come Whereas in déede all the Successors of Saint Peter are Apostles as I noted in the .28 Demaund and also whosoeuer else be the first conuerters of any Nation and all the expounders of the Euangelistes and Prophetes are Euangelistes and Prophets which you will not denie if you haue any skill in vnderstanding the Scriptures No difference being betwéene these offices in the beginning and nowe but onely that then they were giuen by miracle and now by order As touching the second you graunt our Church to haue such continuall Succession and inferre therevpon Ergo it is not the true Church here Cap. 2. Pag. 5. because the true Church should at some time or other be driuen out of sight Wherevnto I haue answered Cap. 8. Pag. 144. shewing that you doe fouly abuse the Scripture to that false conclusion and namely that the time of the Churches flying into the wildernesse is not yet come Againe you argue If it be sufficient Ar. 27. or any thing worth to rehearse the names of them that haue orderly succeeded in all ages in the Bishops Sees in an outward face of the Church the Greeke Churche is able to name as many as the Latine Church and in as orderly succession What of that but onely this that they therfore may better claime the Churche then you And yet in trueth these Hereticall and Schismaticall Gréekes can no more shew Succession then you For your false Bishops are now in the Sées of C. Pole of B. Bonner of B. Therlebie c. and yet I trowe you will not thereby claime Succession So these later Gréekes haue not Succession but from them onely who beganne this Separation of theirs and their heresies about the H. Ghostes procéeding c. For in Saint Gregories time whiche is ynough they were in vnitie Nam de Constantinopolitana Ecclesia Greg. li. 7. Epist 63. quis eam dubitet Sedi Apostolicae esse subiectam c. For as touching the Churche of Constantinople saieth he who can doubt that it is subiect to the See Apostolike which thing both our most clement Lord the Emperour and our brother Eusebius Bishop of the same Citie doe dayly professe 44. Apostolike Church Motiue 23. Next vnto this I say that it is we not the Protestants which beleue the Apostolike church because we beleue the Romane church which hath the See of the two most glorious Apostles S. Peter S. Paul which was ment by those Fathers who in their Coūcell added to the article of the créede the word Apostolike therby to specify the better the Catholike Church against such heretikes as durst challenge to themselues the Catholike Church but had no colour to challenge the Romane Church namely that Bishop of Rome which sat in the Apostles chaire that is which orderly and canonically succéeded the Apostles For otherwise the Donatistes and some others we know had their mocke bishop at Rome in a corner whom they sent thither out of other countries to lurke there for a stale to their simple people which thing among others might cause the Fathers in their exposition of the Créede to say rather the Apostolike Church then the Romane Church Ar. 96. Vnto this Fulke hath two shiftes First he saith You are neuer able to answere the arguments that are brought to proue that Peter was neuer Bishop at Rome And then where is al your bragges of Apostolike Sea and succession c Sée here cap. 2. pag. 3. how he confesseth that S. Augustine and many other of the Fathers did likewise alleadge against Heretikes the succession of that Apostolike Sée And therfore consider to whom and for whom it is that now he saith And then where is all your bragges c I would not desire a better cause to discredite quite these absurd Protestantes then that they deny S. Peter to haue béen euer at Rome For who knoweth not that all the auncient writers are against them therein
and that no man for much more then a .1000 yeares together after the Apostles time either denied it Roff. in li. Aâ— Petrus fuerit Romae con Vellaeum Cochl de Petro Roma coÌ„ Velli Wald. li 2. Doct. ar 1. c. 7. tom 3. ca. 129. Cop. dial 1 ca. 15. or doubted of it Besides sundrie most manifest argumentes to proue it whereas the Wickleâ—istes and Protestants arguments against it which he saith can neuer be answered are the most ridiculous things that euer man heard Though Fulke bring not forth any one of them yet I haue answered the very best of them here Pag. 237. And most excellent authors among the Catholikes haue alreadie written whole Bookes of this question as Roffensis Cochleus besides Thomas Waldensis and many others that haue chapters of it in other bookes Howbeit the scripture also it selfe is plaine ynough in it if one be not too contentious where S. Peter himselfe doth say that he wrote his first Epistle in Rome calling it Babylon as I noted cap. 9. pag. 156. And for S. Paules being there which is ynough to proue the Apostolike Sée of that Church the Actes are most euident Act. 28. In so much that also Fulke himself after this maner to contrarie him selfe doth confesse here cap. 2. pag. 3. that the Churche of Rome was founded by the Apostles In which place also he graunteth that in the Fathers time it was an Apostolike Church howsoeuer now he would draw his necke out of the coller by denying Peter to haue bene there But be it that Peter was there he saith in his 2. shift except you proue Succession of doctrine and faith aswel as Succession of men your Succession is not worth a straw Yes sir in prouing the Succession of men onely we doe as much as the Fathers did vnlesse you will say that their doing also was not worth a strawe For a Succession of men there must be the Scriptures are plaine therein as the Fathers shewe But no companie sauing the Romanes companie can shew a Succession of men Therefore no companie but theirs is the Church In so much also that the Scripture and Fathers together doe say of that Succession and of that onely Ipsa est Petra Mat. 16. Aug. in Ps coÌ„t partem Donati quam non vincunt superbae inferorum portae That is the Rocke which the proude gates of hell doe not ouercome And your selfe with your master Caluin doe confesse here cap. 2. pag. 3. that it continued in the Apostles faith and sounde doctrine for the first .400 yeares which is ynough against you because you also confesse cap. 3. that within the same time in it was praying for the dead and many other pointes against your doctrine 45. Chaunging Moti 24. Article 11. Dem. 14. But that you shoulde not haue any such euasion I made my next Demaund expresly of that matter noting that the Romane Churche as it hath succession of men so also hath succession of doctrine and faith neuer to this day chaunging the doctrine and faith which it receiued of the Apostles Now what haue you to the contrarie Of S. Victor who excommunicated the Asians Ar. 47. I haue answered Dem. 28. that it is nothing else but your blasphemous audacitie to say that he chaunged from his predecessors and vsurped authoritie in that doing Touching also S. Boniface the third against whom you alleage the saying of his Predecessor S. Gregorie None of my Predecessors would vse this prophane title to call himselfe Vniuersall Bishop I haue answered Cap. 3. pag. 24. that you belie S. Boniface For neither he nor any since him no more then they before him vsed that title but the cleane contrarie title Seruus seruorum dei which S. Gregorie of humilitie did begin Thirdly you say that the same Gregorie as Hulderichus Bishop of Auspurge doth testifie was the first that compelled Priestes to liue vnmaried Which afterward when he saw the inconuenience he reuoked And so you destroy your own ensample for if he reuoked it then is not he one that made a chaunge from his Fathers faith You that will not beléeue all Antiquitie saying that Peter was at Rome will yet haue no man doubt but S. Gregorie saw such inconuenience in so shorte a time that six thousand Infantes were straight begotten by the fornications of onely Subdeacons yea and cruelly murdered yea and all their heades caste into one certaine poole and therefore found and taken vp by tale Witnesse of all this one that being Bishop of Auspurge wrote to Pope Nicolas the first who was dead 56. Cop. dial 1 cap. 22. yeares before this man was made Bishop He that will Laugh more at large at the fable let him reade M. Cope As for Priestes Mariage I noted cap. 3. pag. 12. cap. 6. pag. 43. How they counted Iouinian an Heretike and a monster long before S. Gregories time for allowing of it These are all the chaunges that you note in the Church of Rome vnlesse I must count this another where you note D. Allen to confesse Pur. 68. that the old vsage of the Church was first to set satisfaction and then to absolue though now of late to absolue before satisfaction hath bene more vsed Both maners haue bene alwayes vsed but the first of old more then the second and the second of late more then the first This saith D. Allen and it is euident to them that are skilfull in Antiquitie namely such as did not make their confession before they fell sore sicke they were absolued incontinently and did their Penaunce afterwards if they recouered Hereticall Bishoppes and Priestes were oftentimes receyued vppon cause by onely absolution without all satisfaction yea and permitted to continue in their honours also The Churches care both then and now was and is to haue all sinners truely contrite before absolution and that is sufficient before God Neuerthelesse suche as haue offended afore also are caused to doe their duetie accordingly A straunge matter that these Heretikes who haue quite taken all away should controll the Church although she also had taken all away howe muche lesse considering that she hath not taken any piece away but onely putteth that more often to the second place whiche she was wonte as it is a thing indifferent to put in the firste place more often and that according to her power to edifie and not to destroye seeing the people now so careles that rather then they will doe suche penaunce for satisfaction they will not come to confession and so dying without absolution goe to damnation and seeing withall that whereas satisfaction is no satisfaction vnlesse the partie bee firste in grace his owne contrition before was alone but nowe it hath the helpe of absolution whiche of it selfe conferreth grace that nowe his satisfaction muche more probablye then before is not baren And therefore muche lesse satisfaction nowe like to be more auayleable then muche more before and
vs to death for it Ioan. 19. to say we be no Martyrs but Traytors Euen as the perfidious Iewes made as though our Master could not be king ouer our Soules but by Treason agaynst Cesar So the Heretikes say of his Vicare In suche casting of their blasphemous mouthes into heauen they doe but consent to the wicked that shedde the Saintes bloud Those whom Gods Church hath declared to be Saintes it is not Fulke nor his baudy Bale that with all their durt can blotte them out of the booke of life If S. Liberius were once an Arrian might he not be canonized for a Saint repenting afterwards Was not S. Augustine once a Manichée Yet the trueth is as D. Sanders sheweth at large that he neuer was an Arrian nor neuer saide of any so to be but onely by compulsion to haue subscribed to the Arrians against his owne conscience or rather not to the Arrians but onely to the deposition of Athanasius So one or two of the Doctors wrote béeing deceyued with the false rumour that the Heretikes had spredde before the trueth was set out in the Ecclesiasticall Historie But where was your witte when you alleaged against Canonization the example of burning Hermannus the Heretikes boanes who neuer was canonized by commaundement of Bonifacius 8. in Ferraria where they had worshipped him twentie yeres Apocryphally You say king Henry the sixt should haue bene canonized but onely for lacke of money ynough When you bring your authors you shall receiue your answere We can not proue you say that the Pope and our Church hath canonized the Apostles and principall Martyrs To make holydayes of them to name them among the Saints in Diptychis in the holy Canon of the Masse is not this proufe sufficient of their canonization yea and that the Primitiue Church which did so canonize them was not your church because you haue taken away their Dyptica and their dayes of S. Laurence I say and of so many other most glorious Martyrs which had suche canonicall memories in the Primitiue Churche also Yea and would take away the Apostles dayes also if you might haue your will as you vttered here in the 22. Dem. in speaking against all dayes of Saintes O but you haue a better waye to know Saints to wit they whose names are written in the booke of life You might do well to set out that booke in print that we might correct our Callendar after it If you haue not the booke it selfe haue you any more certayne way to know who are written in it then is the Churches declaration Or do you allow her testimonie in canonizing some Scripture for Gods word Saint Fulke by his ovvne industrie reiect it in canonizing some men for Gods Saintes But it is great iniurie to the Saintes of God that they be not so accounted while they liue Belike you would be called Saint Fulke that out of hand But for ought that I know you must tarry vntill you extend your doctrine and certaintie of Predestination farther For as yet you teach no more but that your selfe must and do knowe your selfe to be predestinate and so may canonize your selfe for a Saint for euer when you teach that others must know as much of you then blame them if they also do not canonize you And in the meane time blame not the Pope for canonization nor cōpare it to the making of Gods which the Heathen vsed séeing it is no greater a matter then your selfe can doe nor the title greater then men aliue should haue and specially séeing Iohn Hus and Ierome of Prage haue as you say as solemne feastes in your Bohemians Callender as Peter and Paule No man els néedeth to take the paynes your selfe build vp againe with one hand that which you pulled downe with the other 47 Communion of Saintes The next Demaund is about The Cōmunion of Saintes Moti 43. that is to say of all Christians to shew our Countreymen to what a paucitie and against what a multitude they ioyne them selues and that in the matter of saluation or damnation So it is that Fulke doth brag of the most part of Europe here in the 9. Dem. and cap. 9. pag. 177. naming England Scotland Ireland Fraunce Germanie Denmarke Suetia Bohemia Polonia Spayne Italy I denie not but there are Heretikes in al these Countreys at the least in corners And therefore if all Heretikes be of your religion and communion that you may bragge as you doe But the trueth is that euen those Heretikes also which be of your Religion out of England if any be for I doubt whether any will allow a woman to be head of the Church but only your selues to name no other of your peculiar articles yet are they not I say of your communion nor you of theirs as appeareth euidently by this that neither in a Generall Councell if you should hold any you haue authoritie one ouer another no more then two distinct Realmes with their seuerall kings haue authoritie one ouer the other in worldly matters But Catholikes in the meane time whersoeuer they are they be al of one Religion of one communion Therfore to giue the ignorant some light in these matters as S. Augustine said often against the Donatists Aug. de vn Eccl. 3. De pastorib ca. 8. so do I. I say two things first that in all Nations parts of Nations where any of al these Sects are found Catholikes also are found dayly do encrease One example for all of our owne Countrie best knowen to our Countreymen where although they be turned out of all their Churches as in very few others yet the multitude of the people is knowen to be stil Catholike in hart of our communion though drawen against their wills to the contrarie yea and innumerable of them recōciled as all in maner would be who séeth not if they were at their owne libertie Secondly I say that Catholikes are in many Nations and partes of Nations where none at all of the Sectes are or so fewe that they are not to be counted of as in all Spayne all Portugall all Italie most partes of Fraunce many partes of Germanie c. Wherby any man may easily conceiue that the Catholikes at this day in Europe are incomparably more then all the Sectaries put together encreasing withall euery day specially by meanes of Seminaries and Iesuites for the purpose and they diminishing How much more adding to these the Catholikes that be in Africa and in Asia among the old named Christians of those parts And more againe infinitely adding yet the innumerable new Christians in the farder partes of them both conuerted within these fiftie yeres by the Iesuites And agayne the like in Nouo orbe vnder the king of Spayne by the Friers in so much that many yeares since it is written of that alone Surius ad An. do 1558. Tot autem hominū millia in illo nouo orbe Christi c. So
meant of the Apostles and their successors the ministers of the Church he teacheth them aboue al other men to looke diligently to their life conuersation for as they excell in place dignitie so the eyes of all men are set vpon them As a citie builded vpon an hill must needes be seene of all that come neare it so they beeing placed in so high an office and dignitie shall be noted and marked aboue all other men One part of the Church is alwayes visible to the eyes of all men and can not be hidden and yet the whole Church and so also that part is not alwayes visible but may be hidden and was hidden for a 1000. yeres So he saith 31 b Ar. 35. Pur. 458. The true Church decayed immediatly after the Apostles time And so the error of praying for the dead was continued frō a corrupt state of the Church of Christ vnto a plaine departing away into the Church of Antichrist Contra The Primitiue pure Church for the space of an hundreth yeares after Christ Againe Ar. 16. Pur. 458. An. 607. The Church fled into the wildernes there to remaine a long season where she hath not decayed but bene alwayes preserued vntill God should bring her againe to open light now in our dayes c Pur. 364. The true Church shall neuer decay but alway raigne with Christ The false Synagoge shall dayly more and more decay vntill it be vtterly destroyed with Antichrist the head therof If this be not contradiction it is much worse to wit that Luther and his Apostles haue giuen vs a visible Church which shall not decay Whereas Christ and his Apostles gaue vs a visible Church which did decay yea and plainly departe away into Apostasie 32 At euery word he calleth the Pope Antichrist and the head of the malignant Church Contra in some places he maketh two distincte heades and their distincte companies Ar. 16.95 As when Mahomet in the East and Antichrist the Pope in the west seduced the world then the Church fled into the wildernes Againe The Popish Church is not in euery parte of the world for Mahomets sect is in the greatest parte 33 That the true Church may erre and hath erred notwithstanding any priuilege it hath by Gods Spirite we hard him say cap. 3. Nowe to the contrarie Ar. 82.81.93.99.62.77.100.108.62 Neither hath the Spirite of God failed to leade her into all trueth Ar. 82.81.93.99.62.77.100.108.62 There be some prerogatiues of Gods Spirite that are necessarie for the saluation of Gods elect as the gift of vnderstanding the gift of faith c And these the Spouse of Christ hath neuer wanted Ar. 82.81.93.99.62.77.100.108.62 True Faith c. might be signes of the true Church The Spouse of Christ heareth the voice of Christ and is ruled thereby The Church of God is the piller stay of truth Ar. 82.81.93.99.62.77.100.108.62 so called because that wheresoeuer the Church is either visible or inuisible ther is the truth Ar. 82.81.93.99.62.77.100.108.62 S. Paul by this title doth admonish Pastors and preachers how great a burden and charge they susteine that the truth of the Gospell can not be cōtinued in the world but by their ministery in the Church of God which is the piller and stay of truth This their duety true preachers considering are diligent in their calling to preach the trueth Ar. 82.81.93.99.62.77.100.108.62 As our Church is the piller and stay of trueth so is she also the house of trueth which knoweth nothing but him that is the trueth it selfe Iesus Christ his most holy Scripture in which this trueth is signed and testified Ar. 82.81.93.99.62.77.100.108.62 We require you to beleeue the true Cathòlike Church onely and immediatly againe to the contrarie We require you not to beleue any one companie of men more then another 34 The error of Purgatorie and praying for the dead is continued from a corrupt state of the Church of Christ Pur. 458. vnto a playn departing away into the Church of Antichrist Contra The true and onely Church of God is so guyded by Gods spirite Ar. 88. and directed by his word that she can not induce any damnable error to continue No nor suffereth any man damnably abusing her religion without open reprehension and yet Purgatorie c. came in with silence 35 Ar. 5.4.9 The Church of Christ hath of the holy Ghost a iudgement to discerne true writings from counterfectes and the word of God of infallible veritie from the writing of men which might erre Ar. 5.4.9 She hath commended the bookes of holy Scripture to be beleeued of all true Christians Ar. 5.4.9 We persuade vs of the authoritie of Gods booke because we haue most stedfast assurance of Gods spirite for the authoritie of it with the testimonie of the true Church in all ages Contra Pur. 219. All other writings are in better case then the Scriptures are with you For other writings may be coūted the works of their authors without your censure the holy Scripture may not be counted the word of God except you liste so to allow it Other writings are of credite according to the authoritie of the writers The holy Scriptures with you haue not credite according to the authoritie of God the author of them but according to your determination Ar. 65. Ar. 82. 36 Those that by true Christians haue bene called and counted for Heretikes haue proued so in deede Contra This Demaund hath a false principle that the Church ought to be a Christian mans onely it is not in D. Allens principle staye in all troubles and tempestes Ar. 65. 37 And therefore the Papistes being called and counted Heretikes of true Christians that is of the Protestantes without doubt are Heretikes in deede Contra He is a foolish Sophister Ar. 66. that reasoneth from names to things as you do most vainely and childishly Ar. 86. Pur. 367. 38 There is neuer Heresie but there is as great doubt of the Church as of the matter in question Contra Augustines argument of the publike prayers of the Church tooke no holde of the Pelagians by force of trueth that is in it but by their owne confession and graunt of that prayer to be godly and them to be of the Church that so prayed But now the controuersie is not onely of the substance of doctrine but of the Church it selfe also The Donatistes chalenged the Church to them selues Ar. 60.61 39 But for the chiefe poyntes of Christian Religion and the foundation of our faith that is Real presence c. the most approued writers are vtterly agaynst you and therefore can not be of your Church Contra But the Lutheranes and Zuinglians as it pleaseth you to call them are of one true Church although they differ in one opinion concerning the Sacrament the one affirming a Real presence the other denying it Out
of the same place may be deduced also many other contradictions in that among the same chiefe poyntes and foundation he reckoneth also the honor of God the offices of Christ the fruites of his passion the authoritie of Gods worde Images saying that the Fathers in these also were against vs and therefore not of our Church and yet graunteth that the same Fathers helde with vs euen those very poyntes which in vs he counteth contrarie vnto these and to the foundation to witte Honoring of Relikes Inuocation of Saintes Merites Traditions vnwritten Images of the Crosse as by his owne words appeareth here cap. 3. and 7. And them so earnestly also that they condemned the contraries for Heresies Yet saith Fulke Pur. 412. Whosoeuer is not able to proue by the word of God any opinion that he holdeth obstinately he is an Heretike 40 Ar. 10.61 Pu. 403. We know that Luther did not obstinately and maliciousâ—y erre in any article of faith concerning the substance of Religion Ar. 10.61 Pu. 403. Luther Caluine and Bucer shall come with Christ to iudge the world Ar. 10.61 Pu. 403. As for Illyrians if you call them of Flaccius Illyricus they be Lutherans in opinion of the Sacrament differ onely in Ceremonies which can not diuide them from the faith Contra What Flaccius or any such as he is hath said Pur. 147. neither do I know neither do I regard let them answere for them selues But whereas you charge M. Caluine c. 41 There is neuer Heresie Ar. 86. but there is as great doubt of the Church as of the matter in question Therefore onely the Scripture is the stay of a Christian mans conscience Contra Pur. 367. The Church is the stay of trueth If that argument of the Church without triall which is the Church might take place it woulde serue you both for a sworde and a buckler The Church saith it and we or they of the first 600. yeres for that néedeth no triall you confesse it your selfe are the Church Therfore it is true 42 Among the arguments that Augustine vseth agaynst the Pelagians one though the feeblest of an hundred is Pur. 349.367 that their Heresie was contrarie to the publike prayers of the Church Contra All other persuasions set aside he prouoketh onely to the Scripture to trye the faith and doctrine of the Church namely in beating downe the Schisme of the Donatistes the heresie of the Pelagians Where also he contradicteth him selfe againe in shewing the reason why he argued against the Donatistes of onely Scripture but against the Pelagians of the Churches prayers also The Pelagians graunted them to be of the Church that so prayed And therfore when Augustine had to do with the Donatistes that chalenged the Church vnto them selues he setteth all other trials aside and prouoketh onely to the Scriptures 43 a Pur. 432. We stand for authoritie only to the iudgement of the holy Scriptures Contra b Ar. 9.5 10 The ground that we haue to persuade vs of the authoritie of gods booke is because we haue most stedfast assurance of Gods spirit for the authoritie of that booke with the testimonie of the true Church in all ages b Ar. 9.5 10 The church of Christ hath a iudgement to discerne the word of god from the writings of mem b Ar. 9.5 10 The primitiue Churches testimonie of the word of God we allow beleeue c Pur. 364. â—31 Supra ca. 7. pag. 89. Ar. 21.39.42 You should bring a great preiudice against vs and passing well proued for the credite of your cause and the discredite of ours if you could bring the consent and practise of the primitiue pure Church for the space of 100. yeres after Christ or some thing out of any Authentical writer which liued within one hundred yeres after the Apostles age Pur. 362. 44 S. Paule 1. Cor. 11. declareth without cooler or couerture the onely right order of ministration Contra in the nexte line I know the Papistes will flie to those wordes of the Apostle The rest I will set in order when I come That is manifest to be spoken of matters of externall comelines and therefore say we of the order of ministration Pu. 438. 45 The old Doctors neuer heard Purgatory named nor prayer for the dead Contra About S. Augustines time the name of Purgatorie was first inuented Pur. 356. And long afore that also Montanus had in all pointes the opinion of the Papistes c. Here cap. 3. pag. 23. And yet againe Before Chrysostomes time it was but a blind error without a head Pur. 54. Pur. 161. 46 In S. Augustines time Sathan was but then laying his foundation of Purgatorie Contra That error of Purgatorie was somewhat rifely budded vp in his time And specially here cap. 3. pag. 14. saying And this I thinke is the right pedigree of prayers for the dead and Purgatorie where he putteth the very last generation of it to haue bene in S. Augustines time and the foundation long afore Christes time Pur. 242.243 47 M. Allen affirmeth that after mens departure the representation of almes by such as receiued it shall moue God excedingly to mercy O vaine imagination for which he hath neither Scripture nor Doctor Pur. 236. â—37 Contra Chrysostome alloweth rather almes that men geue before their death or bequeath in their Testament because it is a worke of their owne then that almes which other men geue for them howbeit also such almes are auayleable for the dead he saith 48 Here cap. 5. pag. 31. Fulke saith that The auncient Doctors did hold the â—oundation Contra cap. 4. pag. 28. He saith The thyrd Councell of Carthage did define that it is vnlawfull to pray to God the Sonne and God the holy Ghost 49 Here cap 8. pag. 127. he sayth that the iust of the old Testament went not to Limbus Patrum after their death but to heauen immediately Contra Pur. 183. The fierie and shaking sword that was set to exclude man from Paradise was taken away by the death of Christ when he opened Paradise yea the Kingdome of Heauen whereof Paradise was but a Sacrament vnto all beleeuers so that the Penitent theefe had passage into Paradise 50 Who so denyeth the authoritie of the holy Scriptures Pur. 214. therby bewraieth him selfe to be an Heretike Contra I say not this here cap. 9. pag. 170. Pur. 218. Ar. 10. that Eusebius was not accompted an Heretike to excuse them that doubt of the Epistle of S. Iames. As Martin Luther and Illyricus for I am persuaded that they are more curious then wise in so doing Loe here are 50. Contradictions and diuers of them more then single ones Yet doe I find in him many others besides these which I omit for breuities sake and because these may suffice to shew what a writer he is and what a Religion it is that agréeth no better he
is linked your place with enim Impossibile est enim for it is vnpossible c. And that which our Sauiour saith to the Pharisées Scribes Mat. 12. Mar. 3. of Sinne or blasphemie against the holy Ghost because they said Spiritum immundum habet He hath an vncleane spirit euen Belzabub the prince of the diuels to cast out diuels by doth he say it to driue them to desperation yea doth he not plainely speake it to moue them the more and to the greater repentance As your selfe also contrarie after your manner to your selfe Pur. 461. though in expresse wordes counting D. Allen and his fellowes such as Heb. 6. can not by you repent hauing sometime bene lightned As though D. Allen had euer bene a Protestant and tasted of the good gift of God doe yet exhort them truely to repent and to returne to the acknowledging of trueth once knoweÌ„ and professed and doe beseech God that so many among them as are curable may haue grace so to do So the whole circumstance sheweth that Christ there exhorteth them to most humble penance For neither doth he otherwise say that such sinne blasphemie shal not be remitted then he saith that all other sinne and blasphemie shall be remitted And yet I trow many a one yea aboue all number may be and is damned in hell for other sinne and blasphemie Euen so many a one yea and aboue all number may be and is forgiuen the sinne against the Holy Ghost Wherby it is euident that he doth no more in that place but report the ordinarie rules of Gods prouidence to wit To forgeue al other sinne ordinarily by giuing the partie grace to repent and not to forgeue ordinarily the sinne against the holy Ghost that is when one maliciously calleth the Miracles of Christ and of his Seruauntes the workes of the Deuill or the lying signes and wonders of Antichrist Which sinne your new Gospell hath made very common in these dayes But yet that no such also should dispaire one of these a Act. 23.26 Philip. 3. Pharisées he the very worst of theÌ„ all saith most comfortably b 1. Tim. 1. Act. 7.9 A sure saying and worthy of all embracing that Christ Iesus came into the worlde to saue sinnerss of whom I am the principall But to this end I had mercie that in me the principall who afore was a blasphemer and a persecuter and an oppresser in my c Vide Au. expo inch ad Rom. prope fineÌ„ blind incredulitie Christ Iesus might shew all clemencie for a samplar to all that should after beleue in him Nowe for that which you alleaged out of Samuel Ieremie and Ezechiel it is all spoken in one sense of temporall matters to wit of casting Saule from his kingdome and the Iewes into captiuitie in another sense of the Iewes generall reprobation in which they presently be since their crucifying of their Messias and ours But to pray for the saluation of Saul or the Iewes no man was forbidden no nor for their temporall felicitie to continue vntill it was quite past So did Samuell mourne for Saul euen to the moment that he was sent to annoint Dauid in his place So did Ieremie still continue praying for the Iewes as appeareth in the same Chapters Rom. 10. and as Saint Paule writeth of his owne doyng afterwardes when the time of their reprobation was nowe present Finally there is in Ezechiel a notable and a comfortable rule for the wicked also by name howe to take and vnderstande the comminations of God to wit not simply as you doe and absolutely Ezech. 33. Iere. 18. but with a condition If I say to the wicked Thou shalt die the death sée as it were absolutely but yet it followeth neuerthelesse and he repent him of his sinne and worke iudgement and iustice and make restitution of pledge and of robberie and generally walke in the commaundementes of lyfe nor doe any euill he shall liue the life and shall not die Another point is that straunge interpretation of the Article of our Creede Christ descended into Hell to redeeme vs out of Hell by suffering the wrath of God for our sinnes Hebr. 5. In that place is neuer a worde of that Article and much lesse of that interpretation neither that Christ suffred the wrath of God although that may be saide so as the Scriptures doe tearme payne or punishment by the name of wrath But then what other wrath did he suffer then that which is expressed plainely in the wordes afore passus crucifixus mortuus He suffered was crucifyed and dyed Belike you meane the padde that your Maister Caluine leaft in the strawe Pur. 451. Cal. Insti li. 2. ca. 16. sect 10. that all thys which I haue saide was nothing Nihil actum erat si Christus corporea tantum morte defunctus fuisset It had auayled nothing if Christ had dyed bodily death onely And so you will bring vs when you reply b Aug. ep 99. howe he dyed some death of Soule also eyther that which mortall Sinners doe dye here in sinning or that which they dye afterwardes in Hell when they be in damnation for their sinne You say Pur. 63. that Caluine affirmeth his descending into Hell to be vnderstoode of the wrath of God which he sustayned for our sinnes before his death at that time especially when he that was God complained that he was forsaken of God What other forsaking was that but that he did not deliuer him from the Crosse which was to forsake by the iudgement both of naturall desire and especially of his most wicked enemies who saide there in their diuelishe insultation Mat. 27. He trusted in God let him nowe deliuer him if he will haue him for he said That I am the Sonne of God Neyther was it a complaint as you say but a prayer as you myght haue séene euen Hebrues .5 if you had not béene blynd Who in the dayes of his fleshe with a myghtie crie and with teares offered vp prayers and supplications to hym that was able to saue him out of death and was heard for hys reuerence to wit beinâ— raysed by him agayne Whereby you sée that in déede he was not forsaken neyther corporally Where now is your Sâ—â—ipture or Caluins for any other but bodyly death of Châ—ist for any other wrath for any other forsaking Or what Châ—istian man did euer thinke that Christes bodily death alone was nothing yea or that it was not the full sufficient and abundant raunsome or redemption of the world All the world must go to schole againe to Caluin to learne that Christes soule besides his bodily death was in such horrible distresse of conscience in such meruellous anguish horror frayeur yea and damnation that his case was for the time despairing blaspheming excepted euen the selfe same that the case of the damned is for euer yea that he was in feare least he should haue bene
damned * Fulke vvil auouch this out of Heb. v. in his Reply for euer also This is the doctrine of that beast as D. Allen doth most worthily call him for it against our Sauiours corporall death which was his onely death and that in many of his impious bookes and namely in that Catechisme which they haue ioyned with their French Bibles in the end belike that it may among fooles créepe in time into Canonicall authoritie as alreadie Luther with the Lutherans and Caluine with the Caluinistes is péere to the Apostles them selues And for touching of this doctrine it is that Fulke more zealous for Caluine then for Christ goulpeth vp such geare against D. Allen as the Reader may sée in the place falsifying also D. Allens wordes because otherwise he had no marke to shoote at as though he had said Caluine to affirme that Christ went downe into hell after his death Whereas D. Allen saith nothing of the time when he descended by Caluin but onely of the hellike torments which Caluine buildeth vpon his descending Howbeit I would aske Fulke why it is such a mysterie that Christes soule was in damnation for the time vpon the Crosse and not also and rather after his death for the time vntill his resurrection specially considering that in the Créede Crucifixus goeth before Sepultus and Descendit ad inferos followeth Sepultus as also commonly in the Scriptures the time of his Soule in hell is made concurrant with the time of his body in the graue And who séeth not thereby that the Catholikes interpretation is also most naturall and proper that after Mortuus which signifieth the separation of his body and soule by death followeth Sepultus to shewe where his body was afterwardes Descendit ad inferos to tell where his Soule was afterwardes though not in damnation according to these mens new blasphemie vntill both were conioyned againe in his Resurrection as there it followeth immediately Tertia die resurrexit a mortuis Thus I am faine to stand long vpon euery point be it neuer so absurd and impious against our Lord God him selfe and against our onely Redēption in his bloud For they can wrest the Scriptures to such poyntes also We should I thinke afore now if this poynt of Christes damnation for our Redemption had not bene by diuers Catholikes so handled to their shame haue had that other poynt likewise of some Caluinistes made more common that Christ also did despeire in God or blaspheme God or commit some other sinne against God for our Redemption Synod Gē 5. Ses 4. Ses 8. ca. 12. For I sée not but they are already come to say with that old most detestable blasphemous Heretike Theodorus Mopsuestenus master to Nestorius that he had in him fomitem peccati inclination to sinne and that he was not from his conception impeccabilis that is vnsinable considering they say he feared to be damned for euer vnlesse they will say that he was so ignorant to feare a thing that was vnpossible to befall vnto him Which yet them selues can not feare because of their Speciall faith forsooth Pur. 290.296.298 O Lord these blasphemous helhoundes are more worthy to be beaten downe with thunderboltes and so forth as Fulke knoweth how to amplifie but that afore he lacked matter It is no maruell now after this to sée this man so cold for the honor or rather so impiously set against the honor of Christes Mother As first to quit the Heluidians and Antidicomarianitae August ad Quodvult Haer. 84. Epip Haer. 78. Pur. 453. who were by the Primitiue Church condemned as Heretikes for denying her perpetuall virginitie But he notwithstanding saith As for the perpetuall virginitie of the Mother of Christ as we can thinke it is true so bicause the Scripture hath not reuealed it neither perteineth it vnto vs we make no question of it No it perteineth not vnto you to accurse old Heretikes but to ioyne with old Heretikes that perteineth vnto you and also to forge new principles as that same of Only Scripture in their fauour yea and also to contradict your selfe for the matter For but foure lines afore you say All trueth may be proued by Scripture And now of this We can thinke it is true and yet the Scripture hath not reuealed it You might with more honestie haue said that it may be proued by Scripture namely where she saith Quoniam virum non cognosco Because I know not man that is Luc. 1. Au. de san virg ca. 4. because I haue made a vow of virginitie how therfore cā I haue a child But this place you could not aleage you wot for another cause neither do I say that it proueth inuincibly her perpetuall virginitie although it so proue her vow For I know that besides her vow it should be proued that she neuer sinned against her vow nor had a dispensation of God for it Secondly you controll D. Allen Pur. 86.87 where saying that the iustest person sinneth he excepteth Christ and for his honor his mother You thinke it must then be said that he was not sauiour of his Mother and she had no neede of his saluation If you had bene a reader of S. Augustine as you be of Caluine you might haue easily remembred that he saith the very same that D. Allen doth A piece of Pelagius his heresie being that a man may liue without all sinne Au. de nat gra c. 36. he alleaged for it the example of so many iust persons commended in the Scriptures and among the rest our Lord and Sauiours Mother saying that to confesse her without sinne necesse est pietati It is necessarie for him that will not be impious Howe you woulde haue answered him we sée specially thinking you haue Scripture for her sinning because Christ said vnto her Why did you seeke me Luc. 2. Ioan. 2. c. and What to me and thee O woman c. you thinke that Christ here reproueth her and that he had done her wrong herein if she did not sinne You might do well to tell vs what were those sinnes of hers S. Augustine could not sée any there nor els where but saith playnly in his answere to Pelagius although the contrarie had bene for his vantage against him Excepting the holy Virgin Mary of whom for the honor of our Lorde I will haue no question in the worlde when we talke of sinnes Inde enim scimus for by this we know that more grace was giuen to her to ouercome sinne altogether because she was worthy to conceiue and bring forth him whom it is certayne to haue had no sinne The honor of our Lorde is by Fulke his dishonor Where also you sée that her not sinning doth not argue as after your Diuinitie that she had no nede of Christes grace Con. Tri. Ses 6. can 23. but the cleane contrarie that she had so much the more of his grace then any other
of all the Saintes as you may also sée in the Councell of Trent Another poynt of your great skil is where to supply D. Allens lacke Pur. 12. you bring forsooth the right definition or description of an Heretike and say that an Heretike is a man in the Church c. Wherof what pretie conclusions do folow you may consider as because Papistes be Heretikes with you Ministerlike conclusions of Fulke therefore they be in the Church item Anabaptistes Seruetians c. and of old the Arrians Pelagians c. againe on the contrarie side because these are not nor were not by you in the Church therefore they be not Heretikes It foloweth in your definition That obstinatly mainteineth an opinion contrarie to the doctrine of the Scriptures And then you adde Which if any of vs can be proued to doe then let vs not be spared but condemned for Heretikes We say to you the same of any of vs also But you should haue defined also who is obstinate You bring no Scripture against vs but we answere it clearely much lesse do you proue vs to be obstinate But we bring playne Scriptures against you to proue that also the doctrine of the Apostles Traditions is the doctrine of the Scriptures with very many particular pointes of controuersie expresly against you as namely that neither the Church of Christ should euer flye out of sight much lesse any thing neare the yere 607. nor Antichrist reigne so long as from that time nor the day of Iudgement to be so long after the cōming of Antichrist Againe for the Real presence This is my body and so forth And if you also goe about to answere some of our Scriptures it is no otherwise then the Arrians Pelagians c. did in old time who notwithstanding were obstinate against the truth because they yéelded not neither when the Church had giuen her sentence So do we proue you to be obstinate much more then any because you neither yéeld after sentence and also do hold that the Church hath no such authoritie to end contentions Your ignorance in so wondering at D. Allen for saying that a Christian Scholer should first beléeue and after séeke for vnderstanding I noted before cap. 10. Dem. 34. Of the like ignorance it is where you wonder to heare that the Sacrifice of the Masse is a likenesse of the Sacrifice of Christes death vpon the Crosse and say Pur. 200. that it is contrarie to the whole a See here cap. 10. Dem. 24. scope of the Epistle to the Hebrewes that there should be now any shadowes or resemblances when the body and substance it selfe is come As though we had now no Sacramentes at all Do you not know that all Sacramentes be liknesses of other things as S. Augustine whom your selfe somewhere alleage saith Si enim Sacramenta quandam similitudinem c. Aug. ep 23. Pur. 292. Sup. de 24. For if Sacramentes had not a certayne likenes of those thinges whose Sacramentes they be they should not at al be Sacraments And so you may remember that S. Paule him selfe will haue Baptisme to be a likenes or similitude of Christes death Rom. 6. buriall and resurrection As againe S. Augustine in the foresayd place noteth that it is truely sayed Christum immolari quotidie in Sacramento Christ to be sacrificed euery day in the Sacrament although he were but once sacrificed in seipso in him selfe that is in his owne visible and not sacramentall forme because of the likenes in the Sacrament to that immolation vpon the Crosse For there was visible seperation of his Body and Bloud the one from the other Here is mysticall or sacramentall seperation of the same as the sacramentall wordes doe signifie And therefore this seperation is but like to that if we attende the maner of both and yet it is the very same seperation if we attend the thinges that were and are seperated Which D. Allen vttered very aptly in these few wordes It is the selfe same in another maner Pur. 198.201 Whereunto you say that Euery boye in Oxford can tell him that by Logicke like is not the same An high point D. Allen knew it not How then did he say in another maner Did he not thereby geue you the meaning of that Logicall Principle to wit that like is not the same with the same maner But otherwise what boye hath not heard it sayd of one and the same man being chaunged by age sicknes apparell shauing c. He is like or vnlike him selfe Against so playne a declaration you could not replye and yet you must néedes say something but yet that which neither boy nor man nor your selfe can vnderstand This it is to say It is the selfe same in another maner will not helpe so long as the same respect remaineth Which same respect I pray you for I am not so quicke to vnderstand him who vnderstandeth not him selfe For who can imagine that the very same respect remaineth when the same maner doth not remayne Pur. 20.21 Againe where you attribute that to diuorsement which the Scripture in many places both a Mat. 5. Mar. 10. Luc. 16. ◠Cor. 7. deny to diuorsement and doth b Rom. 7. attribute only to death to wit to make her no wife that was a wife there you vtter your great skill in many matters As in saying that such mariage after diuorsement is dispensed withall by the Pope Item that the Popes Canon Law hath farre many more causes of diuorsement then for adulterie which only Christ alloweth and we Mat. 5. quoth you As though also the Canon Law allow not that onely as a cause of perpetuall diuorse in such sort that if the Adulterer become afterwardes neuer so chast yet the innocent cannot be compelled to receaue him againe But otherwise if the mans furie be such that the wife in his house is in continuall feare daunger of her life doe not you also allow her to dwell away from him vntill such time as his amendment doe appeare sufficiently Item you speake there as though Moyses iudiciall Law ought to be still obserued Leu. 20. We wish that adulterers were punished as God commaunded in his Law it followeth and then the other question of Mariages were soone answered As though the man were punished by death if he sinned against his wife with a single woman If not how then is the question of his wiues Mariage with another resolued by his punishment Such is your skill in the Law I note here your ignorance but I mislike not your moderation in saying we wish Why then doe I charge you with such an opinion of that Law For this that you there charge the Catholikes to allow dispensation for such persons to marrie as the Law of God and nature abhorreth What Law of God doe you meane but Leui. 18 Doe you thinke then that Law to binde Christians and that so straightly as neyther to
a fourefolde offer is made vnto him ¶ Chapter 8. To shew his vanitie in his forsaid rigorous exacting of playne Scriptures and great promises to bring playne Scripture conferring place with place so euidently All the Scriptures that he alleageth are examined and answered The first part Concerning the question of Onely Scripture The second part Concerning the question of the Church 1. Indefinitely Whether the whole Church may erre Whether she may be diuorced Whether she it is that should prepare the way to Antichrist Whether she be alwayes a base companie Whether it be alwayes inuisible yea or so much as then when Antichrist commeth 2. Namely of their Church and of ours Certaine places cōferred diligently together concerning the Defection and Antichrist The third part Concerning the question of Purgatorie 1. Ab authoritate Scripturae negatiuè that is by the Scriptures authoritie negatiuely 2. Ab authoritate Scripturae affirmitiuè First about certaine foundations of Purgatorie and prayer for the dead The distinction of veniall and mortall sinne Whether after sinne remitted paine may remaine Whether Purgatorie follow thereupon Whether in Christ the workes of one may helpe another His cōmon argument of the omnisufficiencie of Christs passiō It is omnisufficient ergo it worketh alwayes to the full It is omnisufficient ergo nothing worketh with it Secondly directly of Purgatorie it selfe prayer for the dead Whether all the elect goe straight to Heauen Afore Christes comming Or at the least since Christes comming Whether the Iudgement may stand with Purgatorie Whether faith hope and Gods will The fourth part Concerning all other questions that he mentioneth About Good workes 1. In generall Whether they do iustifie Whether we haue Freewill 2. In speciall Of prayer Prayer to Saintes Of Fasting About the Sacramentes 1. In generall Whether they be but two Whether they do confer grace 2. In speciall Baptisme the necessitie and effect of it Eucharist Real presence Transubstantiation Mariage of Votaries Of Bishops Priests and Deacons ¶ Chapter 9. To defend that the Doctors as they be confessed to be ours in very many pointes so they be ours in all pointes and the Protestantes in no point All the Doctors sayings that he alleageth are examined and answered The first part Of his Doctors generally 1. His chalenging wordes 2. A generall answer to his challenge declaring that we neede not to answer his Doctors particularly 3. I ioyne with him neuerthelesse particularly The second part Of his Doctors particularly First whether they expound any Scripture against vs. 1. About Antichrist and Babylon 2. About Onely faith 3. About Purgatorie Touching Scripture expounded against it Touching Scriptures for it Whether they say no Scripture to make for it Of certaine perticular textes Secondly whether they geue any other kinde of testimonie against vs. 1. About the Bookes of Machabees Whether somewhat also of other controuersed Scriptures specially 2. About Onely Scripture Where of S. Augustine threefoldly alleaged 3. About certaine Traditions 4. About the Mariage of Votaries 5. About the Real presence And Transubstantiation 6. About the Sacrament of penance Absolution Temporall debt remaining after Absolution Satisfaction Pardons 7. Of Purgatorie Of the Canonicall Memento of oblations and of Sacrifice for the dead practised by the Church Of particular Doctors VVhether S. Augustine doubted of Purgatorie Or denied it Other Doctors about praying for the dead Whether it be onely for Veniall sinnes 8. Of Limbus patrum ¶ Chapter 10. That notwithstanding al which he hath said against D. Allens Articles in his first booke beeing of that matter or also in his other of Purgatorie Euery one of my 51. Demaundes and therefore also euery one of my Motiues likewise euery one of those Articles stādeth in his force euery one I say and much more all of thē to make any man to be a Catholike and not a Protestant 1 Collatio Carthaginensis touching the Church of the Scriptures 2 Building of the Church amid persecution 3 Going out of the Church 4 Rising after the beginning of the Church 5 Cōtradicted of the Church 6 This name Catholikes 7 This name Heretikes 8 This name Protestantes 9 Cōuersion of heathē Natiōs 11 Our Britannie 10.12 Miracles Visions 13.15 Honor of Crosses and Saintes 14.16 Vertue of Crosses and Saintes 17 Exorcismes 18 Destroying of Idolatrie 19 Kings and Emperours 20 In all persecutions 21 Churches 22 Seruice 23 Apish imitation 24 Priesthood and Sacrifice 25 Monkes 26 Fathers 27 Councels 28 See Apostolike 29 Traditions 30 Their owne Doctors 31 Vniuersalitie 32 Antiquitie 33 Consent 34 Authoritie 35 Vnitie 36 Owners and kepers of the Scriptures 37 Stoare house of all truth 38 Old Heresies 39 In old Heretikes Onely 40 They neuer afore now 41 Studying al truth 42 Vnsent 43 Succession 44 Apostolike Church 45 Chaunging 46 Our Auncetors saued theirs damned 47 Communion of Saintes 48 By their fruites 49 All enimies 50 Sure to continue 51 Apostasie ¶ Chapter 11. What grosse contradictions Fulke is fayne to vtter against him selfe while he struggleth against Gods Church and the Doctrine thereof ¶ Chapter 12. A Nosegay of certayne strange flowers piked out of Fulke that they which delight in such a Gardiner may see his handyworke ¶ The .13 Chapter or Conclusion That in his two writings against D. Allen there is yet stuffe ynough to make another Booke as bigge as this to the further discredite of his partie
that the vniuersall Churches authoritie was alwayes counted so irrefragable that she would be and was beléeued vppon her onely word in all matters before she yéelded or we could conceiue the reasons of her doctrine And that S. Augustine wrote a booke vpon this against the Manichées which he called De vtilitate credendi Of the vtilitie of beléeuing first before you vnderstand Aug. retra li. 1. ca. 14. Because his friend Honoratus béeing a Manichée did irride in the discipline of the Catholike faith quod iuberentur homines credere that men were commaunded to beleue and not taught by certentie of the groundes certissima ratione what was true Which to our Doctor Fulke is so strange that of D. Allen saying he taketh it to be the naturall order of a Christian schole Pur. 4.5 he requireth to shew where he learned that methode affirmeth S. Paule Rom. 10. to teach a cōtrary order and calleth it a blind faith which must be thrust vpon mens consciences to be accepted before they see what ground it hath Whereas S. Paule doth not say that men must vnderstand the groundes of euery matter before they beléeue for that were contrary to his owne doing who did not alwayes to all at the first speake wisedome 1. Cor. 2. but that they must heare first the Churches preaching to know which be the articles before they can beléeue them And that is it which we say that hearing what the Church teacheth they may be bold to beleue it forthwith although they heare not or can not attaine to the groundes euen as they which heard Christ him selfe and his Apostles after him might boldly beléeue them As he also did worke those Myracles in the beginning to commend his own authoritie credite and thereby to draw vnto him a multitude which multitude should alwayes after him moue the worlde to beleeue as Myracles did at the first Au. de vtil cred ca. 13. S. Augustine in that booke deduceth this at large and concludeth Rectè igitur Catholicae disciplinae maiestate institutum est vt accedentibus ad Religionem fides persuadeatur ante omnia It is rightly therefore apoynted by the maiestie of the Catholike Churches Schole that they which come to Religion be first and formost moued or perswaded by certayne generall motiues to beleeue Wherefore I say that the Protestantes can not possibly be the Church because they do renounce the claime of suche authoritie I say also that neyther they nor no other secte in the world is so happy sure of their faith as we be hauing a Schoole and Masters that we may boldly beléeue in all thinges because Christ hath geuen them the Spirite of truth Ioan. 14. and to vs also accordingly sayth D. Allen the spirite of obedience But therunto Fulke answereth as more at large here cap. 7. pag. 90. That also the Protestantes wil be ruled by their Superiours What simply Ar. 58. so farre as their Superiours are ruled by Gods word Any other submission they allowe not O humble submission of yours who will ouerrule your Superiours as it were by Gods word and O worthy authoritie of theirs who by your owne cōfession may swarue from the truth of Gods word But howsoeuer the Protestantes are affected to their Superiours the Greeke Church with the Moschouites and Russianes in doubtes wil be ruled by their Patriarche of Constantinople and so will the rest of the Orientall Churches by their chiefe Patriarches Bishops though they be not of our felowship and Catholike communion So you say But if you knewe the storie of the Florentine Councell wherein their Patriarches agréed with the Catholike Latines in all thinges and yet could not for all that reduce their Countries from Schisme you would not so say Ar. 83.84 And as towching your grammaticatiō vpon the article of our Créed I beleeue the H. Catholike Church I haue shewed plainly cap 8. pag. 138 out of antiquitie that the meaning of it is according to this presēt demaund I beleue in the H. Catholike Church And therefore you erre where you say To beleeue all and euery thing that the Catholike Church by commō consent doth maintayne is no article of our faith And is not this a goodly interpretation which you bring We say confesse against all Heretikes and Schismatikes I beleeue that there is a Catholike Church or that God hath an Vniuersall Congregation For what Heretike and Scismatike may not say the same And what Catholike may not also cōfesse that there is a Lutherane Church The meaning of the Créede is as I haue sayd I beléeue that to be the true Church whose name is Catholike as in the Articles afore going I beléeue that Christ which is named Iesus and that God who is the Creator and I beléeue all which the same Church doth bid me to beléeue as being the mouth of the Holy Ghost and by her being the communion or company of the Holy so that none be Holy which do not cōmunicate with her I beléeue that we haue remission of our sinnes in the Sacramentes and shall haue Resurrection of our bodies in glorie and for euer afterwardes in Soule and Bodye together lyfe euerlasting All which is the worke of our Sanctification and appropriated in the Créede to the Holy Ghost as our redemption to the Sonne and Creation to the Father In calling this a foolish and false interpretation you do but vtter your ignorance in the auncient Doctors They are the boyes that you count worthy to haue many stripes for their construing it otherwise then thus I beleeue that there is a Catholike Church Suppose the Apostles had said Credo S. Romanam Ecclesiam how would you haue construed it not I beleue that there is a Romane church for so much you may confesse being yet a Protestant but I beleeue the Romane Church And what should that meane but as I haue here sayd out of the Fathers As also against all Apocriphalles to say Credo Sanctas Scripturas Canonicas I beleeue the H. Canonicall Scriptures Item against Manicheus Montanus Luther and all other false-named Apostles or Euangelists of Christ to say Credo S S. Duodecim Apostolos Credo S S. quatuor Euangelistas I beleeue the H. Twelue Apostles I beleeue the H. Fower Euangelistes 35 Vnitie Motiue 27. Arti 15.17 Well of this irrefragable authoritie of Gods Church ouer vs and of our humble submission againe and affection vnto it procedeth I say in my next Demaund our inseperable vnitie Aug. cōtra Epi. Fund ca. 4. Ioan. 17. whiche S. Augustine in his Motiues to the Manichies calleth Confentionem Populorum atque Gentium Consenting of Peoples and Nations in one Which Christ in his prayer for it accompteth a most iust motiue for the world to beleeue in him But Fulke notwithstanding because his Protestantes haue it not Ar. 93. nor can not possibly atteyne vnto it telleth vs that also the Mahometistes and Turkes haue their