Selected quad for the lemma: scripture_n

Word A	Word B	Word C	Word D	Occurrence	Frequency Band	MI	MI Band	Prominent
scripture_n	answer_v	argument_n	prove_v	2,781	5	5.8805	4	false

Text snippets containing the quad

ID	Title	Author	Corrected Date of Publication (TCP Date of Publication)	STC	Words	Pages
A86482	Certain queres modestly (though plainly) propounded to such as affect the congregational-way, and specially to Master Samuel Eaton and Mr. Timothy Taylor. With an epistle also directed to them concerning their late book intituled A defence of sundry positions, &c. / By Richard Hollingworth, Mancuniensis.	Hollingworth, Richard, 1607-1656.	1646 (1646)	Wing H2488; Thomason E316_16; ESTC R200531; ESTC R233855	20,720	31

of them as of the spirits of the Prophets to the prophets and of Congregational Members though equal one to another be about the minor part where every Elder is left to enjoy the Office of an Elder and each Congregation left to the freedom of the Congregation in what belongs to them and they able to perform where Presbyteries Classes Synods of the same Congregations or their Commissioners in matters of common concernment do strengthen and help particular Congregations walking according to the rule and reduce such as walk not in truth and peace but are leavened with errour and variance and Elders upon a call do teach and rule and perform all Ministrations with reference to and the best advantage of the whole Church of Christ though more specially of those parts of it to which they are most related Also I cannot but observe that there is a difference between your Title-page in which you say indefinitely That the Positions and Scriptures alleaged not some or many of them by me examined are sufficient pertinent and full of power and are manifested yea clearly manifested so to be and some other passages in your Book in which you disclaim the places applyed to Pos 23. as it is by me controverted and are confident they are not found in the Works of any Congregational man d P. 105. And Pos 15. after the Allegation of some Authorities in stead of answering a Text upon which the distinction of Pastors and Teachers is grounded you the one a Teacher and the other Pastor conclude If we do put a false glosse upon the Scripture by mis-interpreting of Ephes 4.11 yet more modest language let any man finde immodestly in that examination if he can had become you brother seeing such Reverend and Learned men whom your self so much honour have gone before us in this Exposition e Pag. 7. ult So Pos 19. do you clearly manifest or so much as assert that the Text Matth. 18. what ever other Texts do doth prove That the Church must be Congregational Pos 20. have you clearly manifested that Matth. 16. proves that the Keys were given to Peter to be used by him for you could not but know that to be the meaning as a Disciple or Beleever not as an Officer f Pa. 93. 1. Pos 12. have you clearly manifested that Col. 4.17 proves the Churches power to censure her Officers when the best Arguments you bring to prove Archippus his faultinesse without which it was no censure amounts but to a strong presumption g Pa. 59. l. 14. and that you know is a weak proof So Pos 2. have you clearly manifested from Adams family that seven eight or nine make a Church when for any thing you Answer Adams family was no more a Church when they were seven or eight then when they were but two or three and do acknowledge notwithstanding your clear manifestation that God hath not precisely determined what number doth make a Church h P. 10. lin 14 33 34. Also methinks you have not manifestly cleared that Revel 8.8 9. is sufficient and full of power against settled endowments in the Church of which Text you say Our brethren present their Exposition as probable they force the Interpretation upon no man And Pos 7. you do not manifestly clear that 2 Cor. 8.5 doth pertinently and powerfully prove that every Member at his admission doth promise to give himself i P. 68. l. 12. to the Church to be guided by them when you say The practice of the Churches of Macedonia by way of allusion is made use of and the Argument is a comparatis k P 44. l. 18. For you know Allusions and Comparisons are not Argumentative And Pos 13. instead of clear manifestation of Ministers maintenance out of the Stock of the Church you say We think we see most warrant for it from the New Testament and as most probable once disputed it but neither then nor now are we peremptory in it l P. 61. l. 5 6 7. Finally to omit more instances when you say We think We conceive it is probable c. or do never so confidently assert any of the several Positions and do not prove the same by the several Texts respectively alleaged nor clear the said Texts from all the Objections made against your Exposition one material Objection unanswered being enough to invalidate the same you afford so many Arguments to any wise Reader that you have not clearly manifested the Positions and Scriptures where such speeches are found to be sufficient c. As for your pretending to prove some Positions and Practises by other Scriptures and Arguments which makes your Book swell so big Suppose you should really so prove them yet that as to mine intent expressed in the Preface is but a by-matter For Positions and Practises may be true and lawful and yet not truely nor lawfully grounded on the Texts alleaged and if I answer them and you produce other new ones we shall contend in infinitum and not come to any issue I could wish we might keep close to the Scriptures and Positions alleaged till they be one way or other cleared and then we may more safely and orderly proceed to other Scriptures and Arguments If the Positions and Scriptures be so clearly sufficient why do you not directly Answer the Examination but obliquely and evadingly in sundry places For instance in the very first words of your first Reply when I alleage one thing viz. That the Apostles never taught or practisied to gather or separate one part of this true Church and another part of that especially persons which themselves converted not to make a purer Church You answer of another thing which was never denyed viz. The Apostles both taught and practised the separating of some Jews from other Jews and gathered them into a Christian Church while yet the Jewish Church you say was not dissolved but was a Church of God But suppose you did solidly prove that the Church of the Jews was then a true Church Yet first it was not a Christian Church nor are the Reformed Churches and Ministers to be compared to the then Jewish Church and the Priests thereof and you should prove Separation from a Christian Church Secondly It was but one Church and you should shew gathering out of several Churches Thirdly It was onely of those Jews which they converted to Christianity from unconverted Jews and you should shew the gathering of Christians converted by others from other Christians converted as well as they and possibly from those persons by whom they were converted Fourthly That Church was then by Gods Commandment to be dissolved and many Churches to be built upon its ruines and therefore doth no more warrant the building of one Christian Church upon the ruine of other true Christian Churches then the Parliaments Commission if there were such a one to the Inhabitants of Derby Hundred to take down Latham house to build them houses

of doth warrant any one of the said Inhabitants to take as many good stones as he can come by out of this that and the other Neighbours houses concerning which they gave no such commandment Your not bringing a more punctual and pertinent proof argues either an implicite confession of the Truth of my Answer or inability to oppugne it A little after you discover too much willingnesse to quarrel at my Expressions Pag. 6. l. 20 25. wherein you say I would suggest that you make Opposition to Magistracy But doth not Master Weld a Congregational man when Master Rathband chargeth Independents to hold that Christians may and ought to set up new Churches and practise in them all Gods Ordinances without the consent of a Christian state yea against their peremptory commands and established Laws and in the midst and against the minde of such Churches as they freely acknowledge the true Churches of God say of this Article No Pen can expresse a greater latitude of Opposition against Magistracy and Laws and Churches too then he affirms to be in us Do not I use his own words Print them in a different Character cite him in the Margent which citation you for what ends you know best leave out as you do many others should you not blame Master Weld or your selves rather then me This is but one example of many And whereas according to rule and reason he that affirms that such a Scripture holds forth such a Position must prove it You have a faculty and make much use of it when I shew you where the proof of the Position from the Text alleaged is defective and require you to supply that defect to turn it over to me to prove the contrary As 1 Cor. 16.1 when I say the Churches of Galatia might for ought you alleage to the contrary be combined one to another The substance of your Answer to this passage is Without proof we cannot grant them id est Combinations of Churches in Galatia And that you may more plausibly put the businesse off your selves you leave out the words For ought you alleage to the contrary Finally because charges of you for your indirect dealings without instances to make them good are but weak and Instances of the several kindes would too much enlarge this Epistle I will now omit them And yet one thing being a great wrong to me and to the Truth of God I cannot passe by viz. That you oftimes curtal and clip my Answers and Arguments not onely the Supplement which yet in a large Answer to a little Book in a Twelve-moneths time is scarce allowable being in my close stile very little but also part of the substance and strength of them sometimes folding them up in obscure c. where you know they cannot be read sometimes omitting them with a censure as the seven particulars in Pos 24. lest the Reader had you transcribed them should have expected an Answer sometimes not giving any hint or intimation of any thing omitted For example to omit the other places for if they were all transcribed they would augment this Epistle in sundry pages though my whole Examination your Positions deducted scarcely amounts to thirteen Leaves Out of my Examination of Pos 6. a main passage viz. Gods Covenanting with Abraham did not impose nor suppose an expresse vocal Covenant on Abrahams part c. And out of my Examination of Pos 7. the principal part of my Answer It is not said that they gave themselves to the Church or Churches but to us viz. Paul and Timothy c. And out of my Examination Pos 22. my whole Answer to Revel 4.14 are by an Index Expurgatorius quite blotted out Brethren let me with love and meeknesse reason with you Do not you when you finde the shaddow of such dealing in me much complain of it Is it not one errour under the Sun and a great one too in men and perhaps in some good men that they will strive for victory rather then truth Do not you omit that which you know to be pertinent while you transcribe and largely Answer some thing lesse pertinent You know many will read your Reply that possibly will never see my Answer and would you make them to beleeve that to those Scriptures alleaged in the Position and published by my self I should Answer either nothing at all or no more or otherwise then you set them down that they may account me not onely weak as I am but ridiculous Is this the fault of the Printer who hath committed few other Errata's and left out I suppose none of your Reply or is it your fault who say in your Epistle You think I will confesse your candor Surely Either the Printer or the Publisher have not delt kindly nor candidly but deceitfully with me and the Reader Cannot your cause or some particular of it be maintained without such dealing Is this the way to clear manifestly the Positions and Scriptures to be sufficient pertinent and full of power by leaving out the Examination of them in whole or in part Thus I have signified unto you some of those plain things which at the first reading of your Book appreared to me and have also sent you some Queres prepared and shewed to some of your Brethren and possibly to one or both of you before the coming out of your Reply and little altered since beseeching you to hold out your way as you say you are able by giving not subtile onely but solid Scriptural or Rational Answers to them all as they respectively do require and not to take and leave where you list nor seeing you know Quaestie quaestionem non selvit to return Antiqueries much lesse censures in stead of Answers which notwithstanding if you shall do I shall if God thereunto assist and his cause and the necessity of the Church do require endeavour to Answer when you have first answered these Queres as also rejoyn to your Reply and that within the time Geometrically proportionable to the time you took in Replying with more mildenesse clearnesse and candor then you as by this short Epistle every wise Reader will easily see have used in your Book The God of Truth and Peace be with you and your loving Brother R. H. November 29. 1645. Some Quere's mildely and modestly propounded to such as affect the Congregational-way WHether to be wise and holy above or without the Rule be not folly prophanenesse and presumption Are not unscriptural wayes of procuring and preserving Church-purity as bad as voluntary humility and will-worship Are not humane inventions in Gods worship imposed by a Congregation upon her Members or freely observed by them as opposite to the second Commandment at leastwise in respect of the things themselves as if the Parliament or Assembly had imposed or should impose or observe them Are not such humane inventions as are unjustly pretended to be Gods Ordinances so much the more detestable to God and godly wise men and more unlawful

may not women as Church Members challenge power and right in them do they not challenge the same in some of the new Congregations Is not investing Non-Elders with Ministerial power placing the power of the Keys in the Body of the Congregation and complaining of the Elders that rule well for taking too much upon them the sin of Corah Is it not a sin of the New as well as of the Old Testament Doth Jude Historically or Prophetically speak of it If Prophetically When and in whom is it or shall be fulfilled Doth Election without Ordination make the Officer Were the seven chosen by the people Acts 6. Officers by vertue of their Election before the Apostles prayed and imposed hands If so then did not the people rather then the Apostles appoint them over the businesse If Ordination be lesse then Election then why is laying on of hands rather then lifting up of hands in suffrages reckoned amongst the Principles Heb 6. Why is the charge more expresse that Ordination rather then Election should not be suddenly and hastily made Why is the description of persons to be ordained much more large in the Epistles to Timothy and Titus which were to ordain then of persons to be elected in any or all the Epistles written to the Churches to whom such election is conceived to belong Is Ordination of Ministers an act of Presbyterian power or of Church-liberty Did the Apostles which you confesse (a) Reasons of the dissenting Brethren did wherever they came leave the Elders and people to the exercise of that right which be longed to them invest non-Elders with the power of Ordaining Did not Churches wait and not ordain their own Elders though they had as much Authority and knew it as well as Churches now do Did not the Apostles go themselves to ordain Elders in every Church or send some Elders or other to that purpose Doth the Scripture require that every particular Congregation may yea must though she hath neighbour-Congregations to assist which is our case alone ordain her own Elders What one Elder in Scripture was ordained by those that were onely of that particular Congregation where he was to officiate What may be the reason that the Apostle which did all things fitly writing to so many Churches in each of which was a particular Eldership did not so largely if at all set down Rules for Ordination as in the Epistles to Timothy and Titus Did the Presbytery that ordained Timothy consist onely of one particular Congregation and of what Congregation and how is it proved Was not every Apostle as also Timothy and Titus as it were an Eldership of the Churches extraordinarily combined in one man When the Apostles joyned with other ●lders in Ordination under what notion did they joyn as Elders of sundry Churches or onely as Co-elders of that particular Congregation If under the later notion what did they adde unto them the Elders of a Church being but Three or Four having as much power as if by addition of Two or Three they were made Five or Six May we not grant in some cases that Supreme Civil power suppose in executing one that had murderer his father and attempted to murder his mother as well as Ecclesiastical may be exercised in one Congregation yea in one family if it be in a wildernesse when it can have no assistance in Government without having the least thought that in ordinary eases every Congregation or Family ought to be Independent in Ecclesiastical or Civil matters Ordinary Elders imposing hands on Apostles or Apostolike men as you say the Teachers of Anttoch ordained Paul an Apostle Act. 13.1 2 did they set him apart to officiate onely in one their own Congregation and not in other Churches For example not in Rome to which Paul writing calls himself with reference to that Ordination 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 an Apostle separated c. Is there not as many precepts or presidents for admitting to the Sacrament known Christians of no set Congregation which you so much boggle at as of admitting the members of other Churches and their children which you commonly practice Do not Elders receive their power and commission for the whole Church of Christ and may they not having a Call preach in any Congregation administer the Sacrament to any Christian yea vote in any Synod as the Scotish Divines by consent do vote in our Assembly Doth not communion of Churches bring communion of Offices and Officers Else how can a Minister administer the Sacrament as an Officer for as a gifted man he cannot dispense it to men of another Church by vertue of the said communion of Churches And if so why may not an Elder of other Churches in Jurisdiction If recommendation be as it were a dismission by your own Principles differing not really but onely in time may not a Minister recommended that is dismissed for a time act Ministerially in another Congregation may not the Maior of one Corporation by consent of all parties interested act authoritatively out of the said Corporation as the Maior of London is Bayliff of Southwark And may not the Colonels of Lancashire your own similitudes by like consent govern and rule the Souldiery of Cheshire Is not the whole Church of God one Corporation one City ut supra And may not then the Aldermen and Officers notwithstanding their several Wards Limits Companies joyn together in a Court of Common counsel for the Government of the City May a Pastor as a Pastor pray for the Universal Church or no Is it a divine or but an humane Institution that Ministers should be maintained by Lords-day collections If humane can any man which holds all Humane Institutions unlawful with good conscience offer at those Collections If you say it is divine where is the warrant for it Dare you determine it as certain or do you but dispute it as probable Do not those Independent Ministers which enjoy Church lands and receive Tythes or compositions for them or yeerly half yeerly quarterly stipends hold these ways of maintenance as lawful as Lords-day-collection By what Scripture prove ye that it is the duty of any Christians that are not of your Church nor ever were but are by you excluded out of it possibly because they will not take your Covenant or subscribe your Confession or the like to contribute to your maintenance seeing you take no charge of them nor so much as preach to them as Pastors Have you from Christ any power to receive maintenance from such May a Church to save charges make it a rule or constant practice to chuse no Ruling-elders though never so fit and able but such as are able to maintain themselves Doth not that Text 1 Tim. 5.17 hold forth the maintenance notwithstanding the poverty of those times as well as the lawfulnesse of Ruling elders Whether Moderators and Presidents of Synods and Church-assemblies Assessors Scribes and Registers of Church-proceedings to say nothing of ringing Bells to