true sense in appearance I answer that the Catholike Church hath expounded the Scripture by the same Spirit of truth whereby it was at the first deliucred Elym All this will not elude the antiquity of this doctrine For if transubstantiation were not alwayes held why was the Masse called a sacrifice the table an altar the Minister a Priest why hath it alwayes beene shewed to the people to be worshipped and offered in one kind to the people and carryed about with that reuerence and the remainder of it kept for the same purpose in a Pixe to be ready vpon all occasions Paul Wee doe acknowledge that very anciently these names of sacrifice Altar and Priest were vsurped but not in your sense The table of the Lord was called an altar because the offerings of Christian people comming to the holy Communion which were brought for the reliefe of the poore were layd vpon it according to Ireuaus who sayth Lib. 2. Cap. 32. that Christ by taking bread and wine taught the Disciples a new oblation of the new Testament the first fruits of his creatures In those Cannons which are sayd to be the Apostles Can. 4. it is orâ—â—yned that nothing should be offered vpon the alter but eares of corne and frankinscense and in the 3 Councell of Carthage Can. 24. that nothing should bee offered but fruits of come and grapes And hence partly came the name sacrifice for almes are a sacrifice to God and partly because of the representation of Christs sacrifice made hereby seeing it is vsuall to call the thing representing by the name of the thing represented Lomb 1.4 dist 12. And so Peter Lombâ—rd sayth that it is not properly called a sacrifice but because it is a memoriall and representation of the true sacrifice of Christ vpon the crosse And lastly for the sacrifice of praise and thankesgiuing then offered vnto God That Christians had not altars properly so called is most plaine from Arnobins Arnob. lib. 6. contra gant Orig. lib. 8. cent Cals who sayth that the Gentiles accused the Christians because they had no altars and from Origen who acknowledgeth that Christians had neither altars nor images And therefore as it is called an altar so sometime it is also called a table See August cont lit Petil. l. 2. c. 47. Touching adoration it was not vsed till Honorius the third Anno 1220 fiue yeares after the Councell of Laterans Touching the administration in one kinde that was neues vsed Def. lib. de offic py viri till 1000 yeares after Christ as Cassauder sheweth and it was first decreed in the Councell of Constance vnder Pope Iobu the 23 Anno 1414 Touching the reseruation of the remainder there was a long time no such vse for they burnt it in the fire Hesych lib. 2. in Leuit â— 8. as Hesych testifieth and if sometime it was reserued it was by priuate persons who caryed it home with them but was not so generally approued and after more consideration in Councells condemned as in the Councell called Caesar Augustau Cap. 3. If any bee preued not to haue conformed the Eucharist receiued in the Church let him be anathema And in the first Tolletan Councell Cap. 14. If they shall remaine â—ill the morrow let them not be any longer reserued but by the diligence of the Clerciks consumed The name of your Masse is very ancient but then the Masse or missa was a dismissing of the Catecumeni when others remained to receiue and thus it continued to Anno 600 according to I sidor lib. 6. Orig. c. 19. The Masse therefore in your Church now is new and so are all your vsages of it and iustly by Christians to be exploded Serg. Paul I thinke this point hath beene so seanned that there needs no more to be sayd for mine owne part you hour giuen we such light into these things as I neuer had before for the ancient name of the Masse and Sacrifice and Altar c. made still some scruple in my minde that transubstantiation was a most ancient tenent of the Church But seeing I am now fully satisfied proceed to some other point Paul The next new thing is the Latine tongue wherein the Masse is offered and prayers are made and the Scriptures are kept This was not but where Latine was vnderstood till the dayes of Vitalian Pope An. 666 Osâ—â—d Cont. 7. in vvhose time Latine was first vsed in Constantinople Neither doth your Nauclerus much differ For hee assigneth it to the time of Pope Agatho Anno 675. In the other Countreys which vnderstood Latine as in France Britaine and in Africa it was vsed more anciently for the Latine tongue was familiar to them for the space of 700 yeares and vpwards as appeareth in one passage of the third Councell of Tours Cap. 17. Anno 770 wherein it is appointed that Homilies should bee turned into a rusticke Latine tongue or Theotiske that they might the better be vnderstood So that if the seruice vvas more anciently performed in the Latine tongue it vvas because they commonly vnderstood it best but since it not being vnderstood it is an absurd noueltie to vse it Elym It is necessarie that seeing Christs Church is one the seruice should be vniforme and for the Scriptures great reason to keepe them in an vnknowne tongue to preuent error Paul It is necessarie indeed as conducing to establish the Latine Monarchy but it were more necessary for edification to haue all in a knowne tongue as anciently it was wont to be as may be gathered from Chrysostom who saith Hom. 18. in 2. Cor. that common prayers are made both by the Priest and the people and Isidor When Psalmes are sung they ought to be sung of all De Ecst. off ib. 1. cap. 10. when Prayer is made let it be made by all and when there is reading let silence be made that all may heare And for your pretended feare of heresie that may be an excuse but seeing anciently all had the Bible in their owne languages it cannot but passe for a nouclty Serg. Paul Be there any more points the antiquitis whereof you can disprous as you haue done these Paul Yes the doctrine of Purgatory and praying for the dead came in also long after the Apostles The first that make mention of Purgatory are Tertullian and Origen whose authoritie is not so great because the one was a Montamst Hereticke and the other was condemned for many errours In Augustines time which was 400 yeares after Christ it was spoken of but doubtfully Tnchit c. 67.69 Whether there shall bee such a thing or no it may be enquired and either be found out or be kept secret from some faithfull persons In Esa l. 28. c. 〈◊〉 saith Augustine And Ierome saith that these things are to be left to the iudgement and knowledge of God Grog in Iob 13. c. 20. And Gregory the first Bishop of Rome who was after
that buildert onely vpon the foundation Christ should be saued and not demolishers Can you proue the Romane Catholikes to bee demolishers Saul You did not conceiue amisse for this word building is very notable in the text Now that they are not builders but demolishers I make it plaine thus Hee onely buildeth vpon a foundation that erecteth somewhat vpon it though it bee but sleighty weake but if standing vpon this foundation he breaketh in peeces and disanulleth the chiefe materials of the building he buildeth not but demolisheth And thus doth the Roman Churh for bearing herselfe vpon the foundation Christ she teacheth to transgresse Gods Commandements and to proceed contrary to his ordinances which are the chiefe materialls of the spirituall building Serg. Paul Wherein doe they commend transgressing against Gods Lawes and Ordinances Saul In exciting the people to get them images and to bow before them in prayer plainly against the second commandement which they seeing into haue therefore put this commandement out of their Catechismes in appointing the Sacrament of Lords Supper to bee administred to the people in one kind onely against Christs institution in forbidding the people to read the Scriptures and commending ignorance as the mother of deuotion against that expresse charge search the Scriptures in appointing seruice in an vnknowne tongue 1. Cor. 14. being the representation of Babel that by reason of strange tongues could not bee built for so hereby such an vncertaine sound is made as that no edification commeth of it in absoluing subiects from their allegeance to their lawfull Prince in dispensing with treasons murthers periuries and incestuous mariages in maintaining lying vnder the names of equiuocations and mentall reseruations in condemning mariage in some sort of people more then fornication in exempting the Clergie from the power of the ciuill Magistrate and setting vp the Pope aboue all both spirituall and temporall things all which who knoweth not to be flatly against Gods Commandements Serg. Paul Yet there are many things wherein they are builders in that they make many prayers and condemne drunkennesse pride vncleannesse oppression c. and exhort vnto the contrary vertues Saul Those things which haue beene already spoken being so they cannot bee counted builders any more then notorious wicked persons who notwithstanding their praying and some good cutward seeming things in them are said to be destroyers of the Law for so the Prophet complaineth Psal 119.126 It is time for thee Lord to put to thy hand for men destroy thy Law How is this but by transgressing and if simply to transgresse be a destroying of the Law much more to teach and maintaine transgressing and to oppose and destroy such as dare not herein offend God as the Romanists doe by fire and sword Serg. Paul I cannot see how they can defend themselves if these be their courses but that they must come vnder that censure Hee that breaketh the least of these commandements Mat. 5.19 and teacheth others to doe so shall bee counted the least in the Kingdome of Heauen Haue you any thing else against them to proue that they build not but demolish and destroy Saul There is one thing more which may be reckoned a chiefe thing in this building and that is faith For when the foundation Christ is rightly laid it is builded vpon him by faith and loue these in short comprehending the whole edifice so that hee which buildeth these two is indeed a builder and shall be saued though he buildeth withall hay and stubble of curious speculations frothy doctrine or erroneous conceits about points more mysticall as his weake iudgement mis-leadeth him Now loue is the fulfilling of the Law and herein I haue shewed that the Romanists build not but destroy and as I haue shewed touching that so I will further declare to aching faith that they build not by teaching it rightly but destroy by putting true faith downe and bringing in an vnsound and vaine faith Serg. Paul How shall that appeare Saul Very easily For a sound faith is to beleeue stedfastly without doubting in regard of the defects in vs casting our selues vpon Gods mercy in Iesus Christ for saluation because he hath promised and is able to effect it For Abrahams faith which is set forth for an example of a sound faith is thus described He doubted â—â—t Rom. 4.10 neither considered the deadnesse of his owne body c. See the place Rom. 4. But they maintaine that there is no assurance to bee had by faith but onely by hope to the lift moment of our liues and that we cannot but be doubtfull without speciall reuelation in regard of out owne corruptions through which wee may fall away when we haue gone furthest in grace flatly against that which is said to haue beene done by Abraham our patterne Serg. Paul This doth not seeme to be a destroying of faith but humilitie for a mans owne vnworthinesse Saul They pretend humility endeed but wee bee to that humilitie that denyeth the true instrument which only can helpe vs to heauen and taketh a counterfeit in stead of it For they teach that faith is onely to beleeue the things contained in the holy Scriptures and that as the Church beleeueth them without knowing in particular what these things are Iam. 2. or applying them to a mans owne soule in particular Which if it be true faith then the deuill hath true faith for he beleeueth thus and goeth a little further because he vnderstandeth what he beleeueth Serg. Paul Is it not then a sound faith vnlesse it be stedfast oh how vncomfortable is this to many poore soules that cannot attaine to any such certainty Saul It is therefore to be vnderstood that though this be the vertue of a sound faith to assure the soule yet it is often a long time before a beleeuer commeth to this For euen as the impe must stand long in the stocke before it closeth with it and becommeth very fast so this assurance commeth after long experience and continuance in Christ by faith Serg. Paul I am resolued now that this Romish Church greatly erreth and dangerously too but there are many in that Church that know not the depth of these things but onely beleeue a Purgatorie and pray for the dead and beseech the Saints departed to helpe them and vse crossing and Holy Water and receiue the Bread and Wine in the Sacrament as Christs reall body and blood adoring it therefore with many the like superstitions Is there any great danger to them being ignorantly miss-led and doing herein but as they are perswaded they ought to doe Saul There is no lesse danger to them Deut. 13. then vnto their Leaders no more then there was vnto such as were seduced to idolatry For as they also must dye for it without all partialitie so the simply mis-led Papist cannot but expect ruine with this Leader Math. 15.14 For if the blind leade the blind they shall both
so freshly in my memory since you resolued them vnto me at that I am fully reselued that they are but wrested and wrung by the aduersary to sorne his turne Elym But by your fauour sir nothing hath yet beene sayd to one place plainly distinguishing betwixt veniall and mortall sinnes and concluding prayer for some dead viz. that sinne not vnto death but are penitent before they dye Paul You doe well to recall that againe which I thought not worth the answering How can it be spoken of mortall and veniall sinnes Is he that hath sinned a mortall sinne to be giuen ouer then as a desperate Reprobate and not to bee prayed for any more What is this but to condemne Peter himselfe and Dauid and Manasseh c. as vnworthy to bee prayed for If your distinction of mortall and veniall sinnes haue no better ground but this it is set vp altogether vpon the sands And for praying for any dead nothing can bee more absurd then to alledge this for he doth not note out the time of continuing or breaking off from sinne as making his case that hath sinned desperate or reparable by the prayers of others by reason of this circumstance but plainely in it selfe for hee saith There is a sinne vnto death And againe There is a sinne not vnto death that is in plaine English there is a sinne which who so committeth it shall dye therefore without all hope of life whatsoeuer prayers should be made for him but there is sinne also the proper sequell and wages whereof is death yet not so necessarily but remission and life may be obtained notwithstanding And if it be taken in this sense there is the consent of other places to confirme it as that All sinnes shall bee forgiuen to the sonnes of men but he that sinneth against the Holy Ghost shall neuer bee forgiuen of such a sinne Saul seemeth to haue beene guilty when the Lord forbiddeth Samuel to pray any more for him But take it of praying for such as dye repeneantly and where can you finde any to second it Serg. Paul I see it is in vaine for you Elymas to hold argument with him any longer by the testimonies of holy Scripture preceed therefore to your plea of antiquitie for therein â—oâ— may happen to put him downe indeed Paul It must needs bee so Sir as you haue said for whatsoeuer flourishes they make their conscience telleth them that the Scriptures are against them seeing they can no more abide them then the â—â—â—tle the day-light Why else doe they keep them lockt vp in an vnknowne tongue Why doe they condemne our translations as hereticall and allow onely of Ieromes translation for it were a mad part for them to condemne and forbid that which maketh on their side This their cracking therefore of the Scriptures is but a fruit of their late impudency putting them on to vndertake the proofe of any thing that can bepropounded But they are very confident that we cannot demonstrate in particular the time and persons when and by whom their false doctrines were broached and their superstitions brought in yet I feare as little to enter the lists with him about this argument as about the other Elymas And I doubt not but to put you to shame enough in so doing for the most ancient Orthodoxe Fathers of the Church haue alwayes taught the same that wee doe and haue often mentioned the particulars of our deuotion which yee falsly call superstition Which being so I weigh not all your places of Scripture if you had as many more nor your colourable answers to such as haue beene by mee alledged for the customes of the Church and traditions deliuered from age to age are of the same authoritie with the holy Scriptures and they are rather to bee regulated hereby as being certaine then these by them speaking as euery man listeth to wrest and turne them Paul It is a false slander by you laid vpon the Scriptures that they are vncertaine and a burthening of Christian people for which you shall answere to obtrude traditions thus vnto them as I haue before declared To passe that ouer therefore here Who can tell whether the ancient Fathers in those passages wherein they haue made some mention of some practices by you vsed were made to speake so by some audacious forger seeing there are so many supposititious writings falsly fathered vpoÌ„ so many imaginary Fathers that neuer were in rerum natura and such purging and altering of ancient Writings hath beene made of late by the authority of the Councell of Trent Moreouer it is possible that through the neglect of Historians or wittingly in fauour of your abuses the originall and first springing vp of them may be concealed But if not few men are read in History neither is history reading necessary to saluation and therefore it maketh not any whit the more on your side though they cannot precisely set downe when and by whom your heresies and superstitions were brought in euen as Mahumetisme were no whit the more approueable though the originall thereof were vnknowne For by this reason the Heathen priests of old sought to maintaine the credit of their idolatries challenging the Christians for imbracing a new Religion It is a poore shift when any thing is particularly disproued by the Word of God to cauill about the beginning of it as if the day were lost if that could not be done for if the leakes of a Ship or the decayes of an House be apparant if corruptions within or blemishes vpon the bodie be made manifest what auaileth it to approue that they are no decayes or blemishes by pleading But can any man tell when these first began Elym Our errours as you call them are not so euident yet as your comparisons If you cannot therefore shew their beginning it is plaine that they were deliuered from the Apostles and it is heresie and impiety in you to impugne them Paul Doth the same fountaine send forth salt water and sweet Doth the same mouth speake contradictories for so certaine is it that these things cannot bee deriued from the Apostles seeing they are altogether against them But because you vige it so much I will set downe the time and age of euery part of your Religion that the nouelty of it may appeare to all the world And first I will begin with the chiefe and head of all your errours the Popes headship This was first established in a Councell at Rome of seuenty two Bishops thirty Presbyters and three Deacons in the time of Boniface the third Anno Dom. 607. Plat. in vita Bonis 3. being then obtained of Phocas who came to the Empire by murthering Mauritius his Master and therefore to prouide the better for himselfe he was willing by granting the supremacie ouer all to ioyne vnto him the Pope of Rome Conc. Constant the eight generall Councell Afterwards there was a Councell held at Constantinople in the dayes of Pope Adrian vnder Basilius
which I haue begung Treasury of Eccles-expositions and to perfect which will require the whole life and labour of one whole man Many haue written so I grant in this argument as that they exceed this of mine without all compare but some are so large and haue made their bookes to swell to so great volumes as that they are onely for professed Students and not for euery mans memory leyfure or money Some againe are so short and doe so prosecute some points onely as that howsoeuer they be for euery man yet when they are read almost euery man remaineth still vnsatisfied in many things Lastly some are neither too large nor too short but haue written fully methodically and logically yet not so fully but that diuers particulars haue beene omitted the common motiues on both sides haue not beene so throughly weighed the originalls of the many eâ—rours of the Church of Rome and the Apostolike Antiquity of the Reformed Religion hath not beene so declared nor the treatises in the manner of them so fitted to the capacity of the vulgar so as that many read them but for want of capacity and through these defects in the worke are not so much moued Now to supply all these defects and to instruct all euen my most vncapable Country-men in euery point and motiue so as that there might be nothing to hinder those that desire to know the truth and to cleaue vnto and obey it I haue written this plaine and short Dialogue And herein I am not so blind but I see to what enuying and hard censuring I expose my selfe but neither credit nor life are any thing to me so that by any meanes I may saue some Onely let mee say thus much in way of Apologie that it is well knowne that I am not malicious against the Romane Catholikes nor out of spite haue thus written or vsed the name of Elymas to disgrace any but wilfull Pontificians who for sinister respects against their knowledge seeke to lead into error not onely common people but noble gouernors that attentiuely hearken to Pauls preaching For the rest let mee intreat you to read me not as an enemy vnlesse I shall therefore bee counted your enemy Gal. 4.16 because I tell you the truth but as one that desireth and prayeth for your saluation and I doubt not but through Gods grace you shall see that which will make you suspect and not so well to like your present estate nor so much to condemne our reformation if not to separate your selues and to come out with vs from amongst them lest ye perish euerlastingly For I professe before God who knoweth all secrets that till I seriously studied vpon these things I was not so resolued that the Pope is the Antichrist nor your tenents and superstitions so damnable but the further I waded into this study the more was I resolued so as that now I make no further doubt of it And therefore my hope is that the like effect may by reading these my meditations bee wrought in others also that the vnstable may be setled and the erring bee brought home into the one sheepfold of Christ before it be too late which God grant vnto you all for his mercies sake Amen A Table of the points of both Religions discussed in this Booke Of the Protestant Religion 1 God onely is to be beleeued in and not the Church Page 2 2 Christ onely is our Mediator and not the Saints departed Page 2 3 Iustification and saluation is by faith onely Page 3 4 Faith assureth of saluation Page 4 5 The soules of the faithfull goe not to Purgatory Page 5 6 Prayers for the dead auaile not Page 6 7 The Sacrament of the Lords Supper is no sacrifice There is no reall presence it ought to be in both kinds Page 6 8 Baptisme doth not quite ake away naturall corruption Page 7 9 The Sacraments of the new Testament are but two onely Page 7 10 There is no perfection of righteousnesse in this life Page 7 11 There is no liberty of will vnto good Page 8 12 Mariage is free for all men Page 8 13 The Scriptures alone are sufficient Page 10 14 None ought to be debarred from reading the Scriptures Page 11 15 The Pope is not supreme head of the Church Page 12 16 God onely is to be called vpon and not the Saints departed Page 14 17 The vse of images in diuine worship is vnlawfull Page 15 18 All prayers ought to be in a knowne tongue Page 17 19 Confession of sinnes is not necessary to any but to God onely Page 17 20 Satisfaction for sinne cannot be made by workes of penance Page 17 21 All sinnes are mort all none veniall Page 18 22 To goe on Pilgimage is a superstition Page 19 23 Extreme vncton ought not now to be Page 19 24 Crossing and holy water are vaine superstitions Page 19 25 Nothing is to be taken from the word for any end Page 20 26 Wilfull pouerty is not warrantable Page 20 27 To vow perpetuall Virginity is vnlawfull page 21 28 Of Holy dayes and fasts vpon their Eeues page 21 29 The Clergy is subiect to the King as well as the laity page 22 30 Superstitions ceremonies in baptizing are anoyded page 23 31 The holy Sâ—â—rament is not to be kept for after-vses page 23 32 The Church of Rome is no true Church because she razeth the foundation page 24 33 The ignorant Papists indangered as well as others page 32 Of Popery 1 Satisfaction for temporall punishments page 25 2 The merit of Saints of the Masse and of workes page 26 3 The saints Mediators page 27 4 Free-will preparing for grace page 28 By these the foundation is razed page 29 5 Vncertainty of faith page 31 6 The Popes supremacy page 37 7 The worshipping of Images page 43 8 The single life of Priests page 47 9 The reall presence page 49 10 Prayers in the Latine tongue page 53 11 Purgatory and praying for the dead page 54 12 Crossing and holy water page 55 13 Freewill page 59 14 Iustification by workes page 60 15 The vncertainty of saluation page 62 16 Satisfaction for sinne page 62 17 Seuen Sacraments page 64 18 Apocryphall Scriptures and traditions c. page 65 AN ANTIDOTE AGAINST POPERY In way of a Dialogue Wherein The Speakers are Saul or Paul Sergius Paulus and Elymas Saul NOble Sir because you are an elect vessell the Lord hath sent mee to publish the true Religion vnto you by the imbracing and right professing whereof you may be saued Sergius Paulus What is that religion Saul It is the Christian Religion taught and maintained in the reformed or Protestant Churches Serg. Paul Wherein standeth this religion Saul The maine points of it concerne either faith or practice in exercising the parts of Gods worship Serg. Paul Concerning faith what doth the Protestant Church hold Saul I will not rehearse all contained in the Symboll or Creed of the Apostles about which
are admitted to their offices they should vow chastity Yea it was a thing so generally receiued euen from the Apostles times as that till of late yeares all were single without contradiction Paul That is a notorious lye For in the first Councell after the Apostles times which was held at Ancyra in Galatia Anno 308 it was ordained that Deacons pâ—ofessing at the time of their ordination that they had not the gift of continency might afterwards marry And in the Councell of Nice Anno 330 the mariage of such as were in holy orders comming in question againe Socrat. Lib. 1.6 11. Paphnutim Bishop of a towne in Thebaids being himselfe single so perswaded to leaue euery man to his owne liberty that nothing was then concluded against these mariages And in the 2 Councell of Tolledo it was ordained Con. Toll Con. 1. as in the Ancyran Councell before Now I pitcht vpon later times because then the debating of the question is set forth and vpon what grounds your Church proceeded which is omitted in Councels foregoing But I am glad that you can goe no higher in this point then the second Carthag Councell wherein neither were their mariages condemned but continency commended so that we haue two Councels before you that left mariage free to all men that could not containe Serg. Paul You haue said enough touching this matter and it is most likely that the Dewill spake in the Councell of Canter â—ury on Dunstans side against Prusts mariages because as I remember you shewed me before that to forbid mariage is the doctrine of Denils Proceed therefore to some other point Paul The reall presence so much stood vpon shall bee the next This was neuer determined nor the word transubstantiation heard of till the Councell of Lâ—â—eran vnder Pope Innocent the third Anno 1215 and the Councell held at Rome vnder Leo the ninth Anno 1050 against Berengarius who seeing that such an opinion began to take place impugned it and was therefore condemned and in another Councell vnder Pope Nicholas the second brought to recant but hee afterwards wrote againe to iustifie the same truth and to shew his repentance for his recantation Elym Herein you doe notoriously abuse the world It is true indeed that before Berengarius his opposition because no man withstood the doctrine of transubstantiation it was not in a Councell determined But doth it follow therefore that it was not before this time maintained Haue not all the Fathers that liued before from time to time as they had occasion to treat of the Masse taught with one consent a secret conuersion by the Priests consecration Ambr. vseth the very word conuersion mutation Lib. 4. de sacram v. 4. Hom. 5. de Pascale Euseb Emissenus sayth that the Priest by a secret power doth turne the visible creatures into the substance of Christs body blood what should I here reckon vp more Bellarmine hath numbred 32 Fathers speaking to the same effect Paul Although the Fathers doe vse the words conuersion mutation and making yet it is true that I sayd before they neuer taught transubstantiation yea after that Leo the ninth and his Councell had condemned Berengarius Peter Lombard one of your Schoole-men that liued Anno 1145 Lombard Sent. 1.4 dist 11. scanning vpon this conuersion saith If it be enquired what manner of conuersion it is whether formall or substantiall or of any other kind I am not able to define And after the determination of the Lateran Councell diuers others of your learnedest Schoolc-men haueing enuously acknowledged that the faith of the transubstantiation is founded only vpon the determination of the Church as Scot. in 4. Dist â—1 〈◊〉 3 art 1. and Biâ—llect 41. in Caâ— Misse Petrâ—â— de Aâ—aco in 4 Sem. qu. 5. art 2. Conc. 2. with diuers others To those sayings of the Fathers I answer that they meant not any alteration of the substance of the bread wine but that it still remaining they became in a wonderfull manner Christs very body and blood to the faithfull receiuer For thus Ambrose expresseth himselfe Amb. de sâ—â—ram 1.4 c. 4 â—ial 2. Gel in Eutych saying They are the things which they were and are changed into another thing And Theodoret saith These mysticall signes doe not gâ—â— from their nature after their sanctification And Gelasius against Eutychcs saith The signes remaine in the propriety of their nature And Drâ—thmarus that liued about An. 800 writing vpon these words ' Doe this in remembrance of mee Drutb in â—iet 26. saith the Lord turning the bread spiritually into his body the wine into his blood hath commanded vs to do the same that hereby we might remember what he hath done for vs. Augustine saith The Lord doubted not to say This is my body August Cont. Adim c. 12. when he game a signe of his body I could also reckon vp many more who haue taught that the very bread in the Sacrament is Christs body and not some other substance vndâ—r the appearance of bread as Iren. Iust in Martyr Cyprian Chrysostome Origen Nazianzen c. Elym These are your shists for though you bee vrged with places and sayings most plaine you will still haue some euasion or other Is it likely that if transubstantiation though not in word yet in effect had not beene generally receiued before Leo or the Latoran Councell that all the world without any opposition but onely of one Berengarius would haue at once yeelded vnto it Paul I wonder that you can without blushing speake of such a generall consent of all when as the whole Greeke Church withstood it tooth and nayle for howsoener they agreed vnto the Church of Rome in other things yet in this point such as were present of them at the Councell of Flerence vnder Eugenius the 4 Anno 1439 could neuer bee brought to consent yet because Eugenius was desirous of a consent for the credit of his Sea hauing drawne them to subscribe to his supremacy the proceeding of the Holy Ghost the vse of vnleauened bread in the sacrament and to Purgatory he caused a Bull to be published called Bulla consensus notwithstanding their constant opposition in the point of transubstantiation but euen in other things wherein they yeelded such distast was taken at them by the rest of the Greeke Churches at their returne home that they were publikely execrated therefore and prohibited Christian buriall And for others that opinion of the Spirits guiding the Church in the truth did so preuaile with them as that they yeelded to transubstantiation because it was in the Lateran Councell determined as appeareth by the confession of the Schoolemen before cited Scot. in 4 dist 11 qu. 3. art 1. the first of whom Scotus sayth If it be enquired why the Church hath chosen this so hard an vnderstanding of this article about transubstantiation when as the words of the Scripture might be expounded safely according to a more easie and