then apologize for me One Objection must needs be removed It may be asked how I doe charge the Iesuit as declyning to have the truth of Religion either examined by Scripture or Antiquity seeing he profers at lest to have one Controversie examined by Scripture Viz. concerning the number of Sacraments But let any rational person though a Romanist if he can but dispossesse his own mind of prejudice cognosce whether my Charge be just How disingenuous the Iesuit was in that seeming profer concerning the number of Sacraments is sufficiently discovered in my Reply to his tenth paper from page 236. to page 241. Now only let these few particulars be considered And 1. When did the Iesuit make this profer Only in his tenth or last paper imeÌ„diatly before his getting out of the nation Why did he it not sooner especially seeing we had been exchanging papers above a year before and he had been frequently appealed to a discusse of particular Controversies Did he not in former papers positively decline to have the truth of Religion examined either by Scripture or Antiquity By Scripture because as he affirmes paper 4. pag. 37. The letter of Scripture is capable of divers yea contrary senses and there is no Religion so false but pretends that the tenets of it are conforme to the letter of Scripture By Antiquity also because sayeth the Iesuit paper 5. page 61 This with as great reason may be assumed by any Christian false Religion Yea doth he not charge me as hatching a new Religion of my own because I appealed to the Fathers of the three first Centuries in his 9. paper page 178. Now what ingenuity or courage is manifested by such a seeming profer at such a time after so many declinaturs ingenuous Romanists may judge But secondly Had there not been weighty Controversies tabled before viz. Concerning the Infallibility of Popes and Councils the Perspicuity and Perfection of the Scriptures Transubstantiation Adoration of Images Communion under one kinde Papal indulgences Apocrypha bookes the Popes Supremacie over the whole Catholick Church and his Jurisdiction over Princes Yea had it not been shewed as the breviry of missives would permit that the Church of Rome doth grosly erre in all these Yet never did he offer to Reply to any of these Let Romanists therefore againe judge whether he who passes over in silence all Arguments both from Scripture and Antiquity to prove the present Romish Religion erronious in all the foresaid particulars and only starts a new Question about the number of Sacraments doeth shew a through willingnesse to have the Truth of Religion tryed either by Scripture or Antiquity Thirdly If there he any Controversie tossed betwixt Rom mists and us where a cavilling Sophister may wrap himself up under Logomachies is not this it which the Iesuit hath pitched upon coÌ„cerning the number of Sacraments Must it not be acknowledged on all hands that as the word Sacrament is taken in a larger or stricter sense a man may affirme that ther be more or fewer Sacraments But of this you may see more at length in the Aâ—swere to the Jesuits tenth paper page 238. and 239. Let it be then considered how willing the Jesuit was of a Scriptural tryal who dates not adventure on the examination of other Controversies and only betaks himself to this wherein the Adversarie may shut himself up in a thicker of Logomachies But fourthly Doth the Jesuit really profer to have that on Controversie concerning the number of Sacraments betwixt Papists and us decyded by Scripture Or doth he bring Arguments from Scripture to prove a precise Septenary of proper Sacraments neither more nor fewer which is the Doctrine of the Present Romish Church Nor at all What then Only that he might seeme to say something he desires me to prove from Scripture that there be only two Sacraments or that there be no more then two which is in very deed to require me to prove the Negative while he himself declynes to prove the Affirmative viz. That there is not only more then two but compleatly seven Though the Iesuits demand be irrational I hope I have satisfied it in its own proper place But what though I had succumbed in proving that there were no more but two proper Sacraments Yet the question betwixt Romanists and us concerning the number of Sacraments were not decyded except it be proven that there be precisely seven neither more nor fewer If there be not a precise septenary one Article of the Romish faith falls to the ground Consequently the Iesuit never submits the Question concerning the number of Sacraments to a Scriptural tryal untill he offer to prove by Scripture a precise sepetenary of proper Sacraments which as yet he hath not done nor I believe will adventure to doe He will find need of the supplement of his unwriten traditions here But neither I suppose will these serve his turne But Fifthly what are all these ensuing papers but a demonstration of the Iesuits tergiversing humor In his first paper he proposed foure postulata like so many Oracles I discovered an egregious fallacy in one of them But to this day he never once endeavoured to vindicat himself He proposed in that paper an informal Syllogisme but could never thereafter adventure on a second which was retorted in better forme against the Popish Religion more wayes then one but these Retortions to this houre remaine unexamined I denyed the Assumption of that long studied Syllogisme but he could never be induced to undertake the probation thereof In that Assumption the Iesuit had said that the PROTESTANT Religion had no grounds to prove its conformity with the letter of Scripture To repell that bold allegeance I appealed him to produce any solid ground of conformity with Scripture which either the True Christian Religion hath or that the Popish Religion can pretend to which the Religion of PROTESTANTS wants But he could never be moved to produce any Sometimes he hinted at the Infallibility of the Propounders of the Articles of Faith but he durst neither adventure to tell whom he meant by these Infallible Propounders or to prove the Infallibility of Romish Propounders or to answere Arguments against their Infallibility At length being outwearied with his tergiversing I produced positive Grounds for proving the conformity of our Religion to the Scriptures and the disconformity of theirs viz. The Perspicuity of the Scriptures in all things necessarie and Conformitie with the faith of the Ancient Church in the first three Centuries Hereupon he positively declyned both Scriptures and Fathers in these first three Centuries as a test to find out the Truth of Religion Therefore finding that still he shunned to come to particulars I pirched upon that much controverted Scripture which Romanists pretend to be as favourable to them as any viz Hoc est Corpus meum This is my Body and proved the sense which PROTESTANTS give thereof to be True and Genuine and the sense which Romanists impose to
whol structure of your Syllogisme which is the marrow of al you have hitherto said You have bestowed many years if my information fail not in studying this your rare Syllogisme Could you not in all that space have put it In modo figura But it seemes you will take as many years to prove either the Major or the Minor thereof But so much hath been said to these things before that now I shall adde no more least I should seeme Cum Batto balbutire In my first three Papers I required you to prove the Assumption of your Syllogisme But this like a Thersites you still declined which I could not but looke upon as an evidence that you succumbed in your probation I did likewise appeal you to produce a ground of the true Christian Religion which doth not agree to the Religion of PROTESTANTS But neither durst you adventure upon any Hereupon I might have turned my back upon you as a smattering fellow wholly incapable to mantaine a Theological debate But to render you the more inexcusable and to convince all to whose hands these Papers may come how desirous I was to have the truth examined I condescended Ex superabundanti though not tyed thereto by rules of disputing to produce in my fourth Paper Two irrefragable grounds by which the truth of Religion may be examined Viz The perspicuity of the Scripture in all things necessary to Salvation And Conformity with the faith of the most Ancient Christian Church Hereupon I have urged with all the earnestnesse I could in my Fourth fifth and sixth Papers that both your Religion and ours might be brought to these Tests and examined thereby namely both by Scripture and Antiquity But you like one who is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 self condemned knowing in your conscience that it is a wicked cause which you doe mantaine have still declined And the scop of this your seventh Paper is yet to decline the examination of Religion by either of these grounds But Veritas non quaerit angulos It is he who doth evill that hates the light Joh. 3.21 Yet have you the impudencie in this your Seventh Paper to say that after many toes and froes now I have produced two grounds as if either I had delivered some inconsistencies or had been driven to produce these grounds by force of your arguments or that now only in my last Paper these grounds had been first produced All which are manisest untruths Is this your gratitude to him who had so liberally gratified you with the production of these grounds When you were clearly at a Nonplus The two grounds which I produced I did prove in my Fourth Paper to be solid and sufficiently distinctive of the true Religion from a false and from them I did demonstrate the truth of our Religion and the falshood of yours for Rectum est sui obliqui Index but you have not once dared to examine these arguments While therefore you hold on in this your tergiversing way it might be enough for me to say to you with the Poet Carpere vel noli nostra vel ede tua Ought you not either to acquiesce to these Grounds produced by me or to produce others more solid especially you being the Opponent But yet once more I offer against you to disput the truth of our Religion both from Scripture and Antiquity and shall withall examine the scurvie pellucid and tergiversing evasions which you have made use of in this your seventh Paper You repeat here againe your three cavils against The Perspicuity of Scripture in all things necessary to Salvation or rather your three cowardly subterfuges to decline a Scriptural tryal but without any confirmation deserving a review I should the more patiently have borne with these taudologies had you been pleased for clearing the state of the controversie betwixt you and us to have delivered the judgement of your Romish Church concerning the Perspicuity of the Scripturs I told you the judgement of PROTESTANTS and shew you how they are injured by your writers I required you with the like plainness to set down the judgement of your Romish Church and the rather because your Authors are found to be inconsistent with one another in this matter And though I have looked upon your ablest Controversists namelie Bellarmin lib. 3. De verbo Dei cap. 1. Gretser In defensione capitis primi libri tertii Bellarmin De verbo Dei and Stapleton lib. 10. De principijs fidei cap. 3. Yet can I not find one Canon of a Council produced by any of them as to this particular Would they not have done it if they had any Doe you not manifest to the World you play the jugler when you dare not adventure to tell the judgement of the Romish Church even in that against which you doe so eagerly cavil You think you have disgraced all that I have writen by calling it A heap of digressions copied out of controversie bookes I find you indeed still better at calumniating then at arguing If my Paper did containe any impertinent Digressions why doe you not particularize them But I have already unfolded the Mysterie That which you cannot answere must be branded as a Digression to palliat your ignorance I acknowledge I have improven against you somewhat of the writings of Ancients of Schoolmen and of modern Coutroversists both of your side and of ours nor am I hereof ashamed This I hope is not the base Plagiarie trade which I leave to your Iesuits as being better acquainted with stealing other mens Papers Have you not heard how your famous Iesuis Antony Possevin did steal from Doctor Iames a learned PROTESTANT his Cyprianus redivivus and put it in his great Apparatus under his own name for which you may find how sharply he is chastised by Doctor Iames in his excellent treatise concerning The corruption of Scriptures Councils and Fathers by the Prelats Pastors and Pillars of the Church of Rome Part. 2. page 9.10 Goe trace backe all the Papers which I have sent to you and see if you can fix any such trespasse upon me As for you I confesse we have no cuase yet to accuse you of ripping up the bowels of many Authors All the Authority wherewith you have hitherto loaded us is Master Dempsters 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 You need not fear that any thing which as yet hath come frō you will be standered as Olens lucernam you onely ramble out any fleeing tergiversing Shifts that come first In buccam as a man who minded not to dive into the controversie However once yet as I have said I will trace your footsteps In your first Cavill you alleadge that The Perspicuity of the Scripturs cannot serve as a distinctive character of the Religion of PROTESTANTS from a false except I first prove that the PROTESTANTS have the true letter and translation and true sense of the letter To which you say I answered nothing but remitted you to our PROTESTANT Authors Here we
though I was onely the Defendant yet being out-wearied by your Cowardlynesse Have I not demonstrated that in sundrie chief points of controversie such as the Perspicuity and perfection of Scripture the fallibility of Popes and Councils and in the matter of transubstantiation that the PROTESTANTS had the right and true sense of Scripture and that you Romanssts were in the trespasse But you as a Catholick Doctor have one Catholicon by which you coufute all that your Adversarie objects namely by calling it a Digression for with that Reply you have satisfied your self throughout all your Papers Onely as to the last Specimen which I gave you concerning Transubstantiation you think you come off with honour by saying That it savours of what I taught my Scholars this last year Are not you a brave Champion indeed who are as afraid of an Argument that hath beene handled in the Schools as you would be of a Crocodile What sport would your men have made had our Whitaker Iunius Chamier and Danaaus declined to examine Bellarmins arguments because he had handled them before in that Colledge where he was Professor But whereas you say That the Argument which I brought against your transubstantiation seems to have beene the summe of all that I taught in the School this last year you shall know that I have not been accustomed to such laziness as to drone whole years like you upon one Syllogisme As in these forementioned particulars I have demonstrated that PROTESTANTS have the true sense of Scripture and not you the same might be showen in all the rest of the points of controversie betwixt you and us and hath beene abundantly done by our Divines But to propose more Arguments to you is but Margaritas porco projicere For it would seeme you dare graple with none of them Fourthly I must advertise you of a Radical error which leades you into many more For you seeme still to suppose that who ever are a true Church must have one general ground from which the truth of all the points of Religion which such a society doe owne may be demonstrated without an examination of particulars And this if I mistake not is your 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 which leades you into all the rest of your errors And therefore you still wave the examination of particulars and call for such a general ground But in this you show extreame basenesse that you neither prove the necessity of such a Principle nor yet produce that Principle by which your and our Religion is to be examined Only you insist still upon one general false Hypothesis as if it were an undenyable Axiom and a Datum Whereas in very truth a true Church may mantaine the fundamentals of Christianity and yet alas have the Tares of some errors mingled with the Wheat as is largely demonstrated by our Divines in that Question Num Ecclesia possit errare And therfore there is not one General Ground to be expected proving that all the points of Religion mantained by such a society are truth without examining particulars And this may be strongly confirmed Ad Hominem against you For if there were any such Commone Ground it would be the Infallibility of your Propounders but not this as I have proven in my former Papers Nay I have so soundly cudgelled this your Romish principle in my Last that you durst not once mention it in this your Eight Paper How ever if there be any ground which you suppose to prove the truth of Religion as a Test which none can justly decline I appeale you to produce it and I undertake by the helpe of GOD to show that either it is a false ground or else that it agrees to the PROTESTANT Religion Fifthly this Assertion of yours That before we câ—in prove the truth of our Religion from Scripture we ought first to prove that we have the true sense of Scripture had need of a very favourable and benigne interpretation else it is perfect non-sense and a very contradiction For if you meane by our having the true sense of Scripture that our ReligioÌ„ is contained in Scripture as the true sense thereof intended by the holy Ghost then if we must prove that we have the true sense of Scripture before we prove that we have the True Religion we must prove we have the true ReligioÌ„ before we prove that we have the true Religion A noble stick of Romish non-sense Sixthly how easie were it to demonstrate against you Romanists that we PROTESTANTS have the true sense of Scripture seeing in most of all the Positives of our Religion you doe agree with us as that there is a GOD that he is to be adored and that there are three Persons c. Consequently The PROTESTANTS sense of Scripture must be the true sense else your Religion cannot be true You must either acknowledge that vve have the true sense of Scripture or condemne your ovvn Religion The chief controversie that remaines betvvixt you and us is concerning your Supernumerarie Additions as vvhether not onely GOD is to be adored but also Images and Crosses and not onely GOD is to be invocated but also Saincts and Angels c. That is vvhether there be so many more Supernumerarie senses of Scripture besides those vvhich PROTESTANTS mantaine and you Papists dare not deny Whether I say besides these there be other senâ—es of Scripture mantained by you Romanists and denyed by us Ought not you then to prove these your Supernumerarie senses And are not vve sufficiently vvarranted to adhere to the Negative except there be solid grounds for these Superadded sexses vvhich I beleeve neither you nor the vvhole sâ—lb of Jesuits shall be able to shovv though you get a superaddition of all Lucifers Acumen But Seventhly and Lastly Seeing nothing will satisfie you unlesse I though onely the Defendant doe also prove against you the Negative that is that not onely Our sense of Scripture is true but also that these Your superadded and supernumerarie senses are not true therefore to draw you if it be possible our of your lurking holes I will try you by this Argument The sense of Scripture given by your present Romish Church in many things contradicts the sense given by the Ancient Romish Church Ergo the sense put upon Scripture by your Present Romish Church in many things cannot be true The Sequel is cleare because two contradictories cannot be true If therefore you confesse that the Ancient Romish Church had the true sense of Scripture which ye must doe or else destroy the great foundation of your Religion namely the pretended Infallibility of the Church of Rome in all ages then wherein you contradict the Ancient Romish Church therein surely you deviat from the true sense of Scripture It remaines therefore onelie that I confirme the Antecedent which I doe by a few cleare Instances Instance first Your present Romish Church mantains that Images are to be adored Not so the Ancient Romish Church As appeares by the
is to keep up a stated Schisine in Christendom and to ruin by Fraud or Force all who cannot comply with their mischievous Projects seriously to consider whether there be not many things in the present Popish Religion greatly obstructive to the Peace and Vnity of the Catholick Church I shall but hint at a few things As first the pretended Infallibility of the Romish Church whether Pope or Council or both Will the Church of Rome admit of Reformation so long as she affirmes her self to be beyond possibilitie of erring Secondly The Vniversal Supremacy acclaimed by the Pope over the Catholick Church Doth not this oblige Romanists to keep up a Schisme from all these Churches which cannot enslave themselves to this Vsurped power Thirdly The manifold Idolatry of the Romish Religion Masse-Worship Image-Worship Sainct-Worship Angel-Worship Crosse-Worship Relict-Worship Know not judicious Romanists that their Idolatry is not only offensive to many Christian Churches but also impeditive of the conversion of Iewes and Infidels Fourthly The Injuriousnesse of the Romish Religion to Our LORD JESUS CHRIST the only MEDIATOR betwixt GOD and Man by setting up a daylie propitiatory facrifice for the sins of the Living and Dead in the Masse by asserting that men must satisfie for a lesser kinde of sinnes which they call venial either in this Lyfe or in Purgatorie yea and for the temporal punishment due to mortal sinnes by affirming that men doe merit Heaven ex condigno and that we must be justified by inherent Righteousnesse Doe not Romanists in persuance of these and such like tenets Anathematiz many christian Churches who cannot concurre with them in such like Blasphemyes against our Blessed SAVIOUR Fifthly The going about publick worship in the Latine tongue which is not now the Vulgar language of any Nation of the World Doth not the Apostle condemne the performing of publick worship in an unknown tongue without an interpreter 1. Cor. 14. so clearly that your great Cardinal Cajetan commenting on the place sayeth Ex hac Pauli doctrina habetur quod melius ad aedificationem Ecclesiae est orationes publicas quae audiente populo dicuntur dici lingua communi clericis populo quam dici latine Sixthly Are not the reproaches horrid which Romanists throw upon the Holy Scriptures of GOD in their debates concerning the Authority Perspicuity Perfection Necessity and Interpretation of the Scriptures Nay is not this one of the first Query's wherewith Missionary Iesuits doe assault our people how doe you know the Scriptures to be the Word of GOD As if they would rather have people turne Scepticks or Atheists then remaine PROTESTANTS Have not many Romanists had many convictions in their consciences that there are corruptions in the Church of Rome calling aloud for Reformation in so-much that there have been many meetings at Rome of their Cardinals and Bishops in order to this But well did Luther as Sleidan reports lib. 12. ad Annum 1537. compare these Assemblyes to a company of Foxes comeing to sweep a room full of dust with their tailes And in stead of sweeping out the dust they sweept it all about the house and made a great smoke for a while but when they were gone the dust fell down againe How long shall Romanists through Pride prejudice faction and interest stifle these convictions Yet if any Romanist will needs prosecute this debate I cannot be so base being honoured to stand for so GLORIOUS a CAUSE as to fear what any Mortal can say I know there are Learned Romanists who can say much more for their ill cause then Mr. Dempster hath done They want neither Learning nor Policy to support their Mystery of iniquity So that as Sir Edwin Sands hath judiciously observed in his Speculum Europae page 24. were it not for the Natural weakenes of untruth and Dishonesty which being rotten at the heart doeth abate the force of what ever is founded thereon there outward means were sufficient to subdue a whole World But it concerns Romanists to notice the smart admonition which Austine gave to a Learned Heathen Ornari a te quaerit Diabolus How will these men render an account of their Talents one day who emprove them to promot the Devils interest I should be a very great stranger to my self if I were not conscious to my own weakenesse Yet Truth hath such advantage over Errour that it doth not need Advocats of the greatest Learning or profoundest Judgement Let me only therefore leave these Advertisements to him who will be at the paines to make a Reply whether Mr. Dempster who as I heare is alive againe or any other First that he hath not only the tenth and last paper to answere but also to supply the paralipomena or emissions of all his former papers so in truth he hath the whole Ten to examine 2. It will not be very handsome to catch at broken shreds here or there But if he would doe his worke throughly he must discusse all and chiefly that which is most material Is there any thing of moment in Mr. Dempsters papers which I have not revised 3. I desire that he would not object to me the ordinarie cavils of Romanists unlesse he will be at the paines to examine what is Replyed thereto by our Divines Else he will constraine me either to neglect what he sayes or to remit him to the Authours who have canvased these Objections before or at most to transcribe old Answeres given to these old objections which cannot but be allowable in me who am the Defendant This I the rather have mentioned because it is observed that late Romish Pamphleters doe often resume old Objections without mentioning the Answeres made thereto by our Divines as if they were New Arguments and hitherto unheard of Thus they abuse many of the Vulgar who are not versed in great volumes especially in the Latine tongue where all these Sophisms are solidly confuted 4. He may be pleased to owne what he writes by putting his Name thereto I cannot be obliged to fight any longer cum Larvis with Specters who have not the confidence to owne what they write 5. And lastly I hope it would not be amisse that Personal criminations were laid aside Mr. Dempster extorted more Recriminations from me then I had pleasure in but if I meet with a Civil Adversary I hope he shall have no cause to complaine of Vncivility from me But if he will needs thrust more at me then at the CAVSE I can rejoyce with Hierom to be railed upon by Hereticks and with Job chap. 31. verse 36. Take these invectives on my shoulder and bind them to me as a Crown It was an Heroick word of Luther Indies magis mihi placeo superbus fio quod video nomen pessimū mihi crescere He gloryed in it that he was evil spoken of for a good cause If these rational proposals be neglected I will not contend in that Case for the last word Patience and Silence wil I hope sufficiently
be false and absurd And offered to doe the like concerning other controverted Scriptures such as Luke 22.32 I have prayed for thee that thy faith fail not Matthew 16.18 Upon this Rocke I will build my Church 1. Tim. 3.15 The pillar and ground of Truth c. This I did in the Answere to his seventh paper from page 126. to page 130. But all these he waves as tedious Digressions in his eight paper page 148. I resolved also to try his behaviour more particularly in reference to Antiquity and therefore in the Answere to the Iesuits eight paper from page 169. to page 173. I produced seven articles of the present Romish Religion which I briefly shew to be repugnant to the faith of the Ancient Romish Church viz. Their Adoration of Images Their Transubstantiation Their Communion under one kinde The Popes Supremacy Their mantaining the Apocryphal bookes to be Canonical Scriptures the Papes usurped Jurisdiction over Princes and their Indulgences for easing Soules under the paines of Purgatory But this is all the Answere which the tergiversing Jesuit makes to these particulars in his paper 9. page 176. What makes it to our purpose your digressions about Images about Transubstantiation about Communion under one kinde about the Popes supremacy about Apocryphal bookes about Indulgences Purgatory c. I gave likewise some account of their corrupting the Morals and Practicals of Christianity by their impious doctrine of Probables in the answere to his eight paper page 162. 163. c. But to this he answered Ne 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 quidem nothing at all The rest of his rergiversing Preteritions I must leave the Reader to collect by his own observation Did ever I pray an ill cause fall into the hands of a more unhappie Advocat Whether now my charge against the Iesuit as on that declynes to have the truth of Religion tryed either by Scripture or Antiquity be just let him who who ponders these particulars and peruseth all the Papers judge Had I tergiversed as the Iesuit hath done had I been left at such disadvantages as he would they not have made the World ring with it What ever answere shall be returned to me Our Popish Apostats will be ready to entertain it with Plaudire's as if the field were wone But I hope they who are judicious will hereafter lesse regard their clamours having such experience of their triumphing when their Champion had behaved himself in such a piteous fashion Our Romanists are pleased to boast that how soon these papers come abroad they shall have an Answere tripping upon their heels Indeed I have eased them of much labour by publishing all these papers Have they not had a good opportunity these six or seven moneths wherein they knew thir papers were at the Presse to prepare supplies for Mr. Dempsters omissions Have they not many hands and heads to furnish them materials little worke to divert them from scribling Yet they would take heed lest through preposterous hâ—ste they fall into Mr. Dempsters errour to leave the chiefe of their worke behind them My designe ever was rather to contend with them in solidity of reason then in Celerity of dispatch Diu apparandumest bellum ut vincas celerius If Romanists be as speedy in their Reply as they talke will it not discover that they apprehend some danger to their ill Cause from these papers If their speed be not answerable to their boasting will it not be an evidence that they are large as good at boasting as at argueing All the courtesie I crave from the ingenuous Reader is to allow me an equal hearing with the Adversary So as when he is to passe judgement betwixt us he consider an equal number of his papers and mine Here there be ten of either side presented If now Sentence should be past neither of us could complaine that we had not ben heard But if Romanists adde their eleventh paper then ought not any further sentence be suspended untill my Reply be heard The Iesuit having the first word doth not the last de jure appertaine to me Yet if the eleventh paper run in the same trifling and tautologizing strain with the former I plead no Suspension My heart bleeds for our straying Apostats some falling to rank Popish Idolatrie others to the delusions of Quakerism which if learned and judicious persons be not mistaken is but Popery under a disguise However O that my head were waters and mine eyes a fountain of tears to weep day and night over these deluded Soules under whatsoever Denomination they goe O that their eyes were opened to see the Sin the Scandal and Danger of their way It might be of some use to speak of the Causes of so great a Defection had not these Papers already swelled to such a bignes I shall therefore only transiently hint at a few And First There is alace an innate Principle of Levity and Instability in peoples hâ—arâ—s so that they are ready to be Tossed to and frolike Children with every wind of Doctrine Eph. 4.14 If the heart be not established by grace The 〈◊〉 siâ—eration of this should humble all and make us jealous our own hearts and watch unto Prayer lest we fall into temptation Secondly Seducers have usually a wonderfull insinuating faculty Rom 16.18 By good words and faire speeches they deceive the hearts of the simple By smooth words accommodated to the complexion of these with whom they deal they steal away their hearts as is said of Absolon Yet they in a manner fascinat and bewiâ—ch them as is the Apostles expression Gal. 3.1 And now these decenfull workers as they are termed 2 Cor. 11.13 have taken an unusuall boldness upon them to intrude into all companies where they have any hope of prevailing These therfore who would eschew their Contagion would shun their fellowship as they would shun Persons smitten with the Plague for the Words of Seducers doe eat as a Gangren 2. Tim. 2.17 The Apostle Iohn would not breath in the same aire with the Heretick Cerinthus but sprang out of the Bath 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sayeth Euseb lib. 3. hist Eccles cap. 25. How soon he perceived the Heretick to be there Thirdly As Hereticks are high and specious in their pretences so also bold and peremptory in their Asseverations The Romish Emissaries talk bigly of the Church as if none had an interest in the Catholick Church but these of their way The Quakers take us great a latitude to boast of the Light and Spirit God forbid that we should derogat from the necessity or efficacy of the Spirits working or from the due esteem to the Catholick Church nay I hope our hearers know we speak more to the just advantage of both then either Jesuit or Quaker But besides these vain and specious pretences these men are very confident in their Asseverations Though they cannot solidely prove any of their Erronious Positions yet they will affirme the truth of them boldly and be ready to Anathematize
SalvatioÌ„ from the faith of the most ancient primitive Church Seeing your Formula fidei contrived by Pope Pius the fourth hath made all the canons of the councill of Trent necessarie which I am sure neither you nor any man shall be able to show to have been the faith of the most Ancient and primitive Church Though this hath been put to you once and againe yet have you not dared to touch upon this string Yea Fifthly from this your imposing new necessary articles of faith whereas Regula fidei as Tertullian well sayed Lib. de velandis Virgin Una omnino est immobilis irrefomabilis many of our Divines have demonstrated your Church to be the most Schismaticall society that bears the name of a Church under Heaven For by this you have cut your selves off both from the ancient Church and from the greatest part of Christendome at this day Among many others who have convicted you of this greivous crime you may try how you can expede your self from that which hath been said to this purpose by Decter Morton in his booke intituled The Grand Imposture of the Church of Rome cap. 15. by Stilling fleet in his Vindicatione of the Bishop of Canterbury part 2. cap. 2. And Voetius in his Desperata causa Papatus lib. 3. From this it were easy to demonstrat that notwithstanding your great pretences to Catholicisme we not ye are the true Catholiks For we acknowledge coÌ„munion with the whole Church both ancient modern which keep the essentials fundameÌ„tals of Christianity But your Chuch by imposing new necessary articles of faith which neither the ancient Church nor yet the greatest part of the present Church did ever acknowledge have cut your selves off from the body I shall close this Section with this Dilemma Either the Scriptures doe containe all that is necessarie to Salvation or not if they doe then you are a perverse wrangling sophister in cavilling against this truth If not then instance one necessary truth not contained in Scriptures And this should have been your worke if you would have done any thing to purpose against this precious truth of the Scriptures being a compleet Canon to have showed some Necessary article of faith not contained therein And if you set to this worke remember that according to your own principles you must prove it by some infallible authority which you will find as hard a worke as to roll Sysiphi Saxum In place of your third objection you enquire What are the means for interpreting Scripture what is the due use of these means Whether a false Religion may not use the meane And whether people without preaching can duely use the means of interpretation and come to the knowledge of all things necessary And from the use of meane of interpretation you would conclude the Scriptures not to be perspicuous Behold now of a disputant you are become a Querist You have need I confesse in your old dayes to turne a Catechumen and if you would become a docile Disciple you might receive convincing instructions and find that you had no just cause to have turned a Runnagade from the Religion of PROTESTANTS unto which you were baptized But so long as your Queries proceed from a cavilling humor you deserve no other answere then the retortion of some puzling Queries as our Lord Christ sometimes confuted the insidious interrogaturs of his adversaries A remarkeable instance whereof you may find Luke 20. from verse 2. to verse 8 And therefore to pull down these Spider webs in which you seeme not a little to confide know First that the use of means of interpretation doth nothing derogat from the asserted Perspicuity of the Scriptures especially seeing the principall means of interpretation are to be fetched from the Scripture it self Suppose a man be in a darke Roome with his eyes shut because he must first open both eyes and windowes before he can see the Sun will you therefore accuse the Sun of obscurity Is not the Perspicuity of Scriptures luculently attested Psal 119. vers 105.2 Pet. 1.19 2. Cor. 4.3.4 Rom. 10.7.8 c. If Scriptures be not perspicuous in things necessary it must be either because GOD would not speake clearlie in them or because he could not It were too hard blasphemie to say he could not Who made mans mouth Exod. 4.11 Hence Laâ—tantius lib. 6. Institut cap. 21. Num Deus linguae mentit artifex lâ—â—uinâ—n potest Nor can you say because he would not seeing this is the verie end of Scripture to reveal unto us the way of Salvation Iohn 20.31 Rom. 15.4.2 Tim. 3.15 Dare you say that our holy and gracious Lord did purposlle deliver the whole Scripture obscurely as Aristâ—tle did his Acromaticks and therefore said of them Edidi non edidi You might have learned a better lesson from Ierom on Psal 96. Where he makes this difference betwixt the writings of Plato and the Apostles Plato said he purposlie affected obscurity that few might understand but the Apostles wrote clearly that they might accommodat themselves to the capacities of all the people of GOD. But Secondly Are not you Romanists as much concerned as we in finding out the means for interpreting Scripture yea and besides to find out also means for interpreting the Decretalls Bulls and Breves of your Popes Are you not acquaint with the perplexed debates of your Authors and particularlie how Stapletons eleventh booke de Principiis fidei Doctrinalibus is wholly spent De mediis interpretandi Scripturam And when all is done you Jesuits can never think your Roman cause sufficiently secured except your Pope be made the onely Infallible Interpreter of Scriptures and therefore Gregorius de Valentia lib. 7. De analysi fidei cap. 1. Proposes this assertion as that which he would prove throughout the whole booke Pontifex ipse Romanus est in quo authoritas illa residet quae in Ecclesia extat ad judicandum de omnibus omnino fidei controversiis And though in his Lib. 8. he mentions diverse rules in determining controversies of faith yet at last he concludes in Cap. 10. That the Pope may use these according to his discretion and that he is not tyed to take advice of Cardinals or other Doctors but according to his pleasure and that he may desyne as Infallibly without them as with them So that till the Scripture have no libertie to speake any thing but what sense your Popes are pleased to put upon it you can never secure either your Pope or Papal Religion from Scriptural Anathema's Were it not easie for me here to give you and the World a Specimen of goodlie expositions of these your infallible interpreters I meane your Popes such as Syricius Innocent the third Boniface the eight c. They who can expound Statuimus by Abrogamus and Pasee â—ues meas of deposing and killing of Princes what Glosses can they not put on scriptures By this it may appeare that this your Querie like all
the rest returnes upon your own Pate But Thirdly had PROTESTANTS devysed new Means of interpretation which had not been made use of by the Church in all times you might have had some pretext for this demand But we doe cordially subscrive to that of the Apostle 2. Peter 1.20 No prophesie of Soripture is of any privat interpretation I shall therefor remit you to Whitaker controver de Scriptur Qu. 5. cap. 9.10.11 12. Chamier Tom. 1. Panstratiâ— Lib. 16. A. cap. 4. ad finem Zauchius Tom. 8. tract de script â—u 2. Gerard the Lutheran In Uberiori exegesi loci de scriptura cap. 25. Where you will find the means of interpretation acknowledged by PROTESTANTS and the way how they are to be used luculently set down and vinditated from the cavilâ— of Stapletâ—n and others Or if your prejudice will not permit you to take them from our Authors you may take them from Austin in his Foure bookes de Doct. Christ Where it is verie remarkeable that though he be verie copious in assigning rules for the right understanding of the Scriptures yet he never once makes mention of that Infallible assistance of the Bishop of Roâ—e which is an undoubted evidence that Austin was not of your now Romish faith By this we understand what an impudent calumny that is of Bellarmin lib. 3. De verbo Dei cap. 1. who when he is stateing this question of the perspicuity of the Scriptures charges reformed Divines as mantaining Scripturam esse tam apertam in se ut sine explicatione sufficiat ad controversias sidei terminandas As if we mantained that there were no need of interpretation of Scripture which none of our Divines doe affirme And therefore to cut off that cavill I purpofly added that caution of Using the means of interpretation albeit on the other hand you would abuse this concession to derogat from the Scriptures perspicuty but with equal ingenuity with your Cardinal Fourthly Whereas you ask Whether the people without preaching can duely use the means of interpretation and come to the knowledge of things necessary to Salvation A ludibrious question as proponed by you implying as would seeme a clear Contradiction in it self For preaching is one of these means of interpretation and therefore it is all one as if you had asked whether people may at once use all the means and yet not use some of them Is it not a manifest Contradiction to use them all and not to use them all at once But to take of all mistakes we say that attendance on publick preaching is one meane to which people are tyed Necessitate praecepti when they may have it which is clearly confirmed by these Scriptures 1. Thess 5.20 Despise not Prophesieing Luke 10.16 He that despyseth you despyseth me Rom. 10.17 Faith cometh by hearing Yet doe we not affirme that the Publick preaching of the Word is a meane so indispenlably necessary that the true meaning of the word can in no case be had by the use of Other means such as reading Private instruction c. When the publict preaching is providentially denyed To this purpose you may see Ruffin lib. 1. Hist Eccles cap. 9. 10. But Fifthly there yet temaines one of your judicious queries namely Whether a false Religion may duely use the means of interpretation I think you would have asked whether people professing a false Religion may use duely the means for it is a verie incongruous speach to say That Religion useth means But passing that incongruicy I answere breifly that people professing a false Religion are bound De jure to use the means duely though De facto they doe not use them duely so long as they adheare to A false Religion For as I said from the beginning of this debate there is such an Objective evidence in Scripture truths that if they be not perceived when sufficiently proposed it is still through some defect on the part of the subject As doth luculentlie appeare from 2. Cor. 3.4 If our Gospel be hid it is to them in whome the God of this world hath blinded their minds And Joh. 7.17 If any man doe the will of GOD he shall know the Doctrine whether it be of GOD. This far have I condescended to satisfie your Extravagant Queriet and I hope have sufficiently vindicated from all your cavills this First ground of the true Religion taken from The Perspicuity and Perfection of the Scriptures But doe not expect hereaftere to meet with the like indulgence as if I would take notice of your ' Digressive questions when you neither observe rules of disputing nor keep close to the maine hing of the controversie I cannot here but put you in minde againe of another ground which I proposed in my last two Papers from which the truth of our Religion may be demonstrated namely The conformity thereof in all its essentials with the faith of the most Ancient Church in the first three Centuries This you still dissemble as if you were deafe on that eare Onely in the close of one of your observations concerning the perspicuitie of the Scripture to confuse these two grounds together that so you might escape in the darke and that your tergiversation and not speaking to this ground distinctly might be the lesse observable you doe impertinently throw in this word That the claims to antiquity is common to other sexts I beleeve you would have said Sects But besides what hath been said in my former Papers to redargue such a trifling Reply now I adde that the falshood of the claime of the other Sects may be evicted by holding out the discrepancy betwixt the faith of the ancient Church and false Religions As I proved the falshood of your Romish Religion from the dissonancy betwixt your now Romish faith or Formula fidei of Pope Pius the fourth and the faith of the ancient Church in these ages which as yet you have not once endeavoured to answere though now it be the third time put to you If you had intended to say any thing to purpose against us PROTESTANTS to this particular you should have instanced Some essentials of the Christian ReligioÌ„ wherin the ancient Church did differ from us But I find that the chief facultio of your Romish Champions lyes in braging and false accusing How often have they accused PROTESTANTS as Innovatours And who are such pretenders to antiquity as they But it is a true character which Scaliger gave long agoe of our and your writers Non sumus nos novatores sed vos estis veteratores And therefore to vindicate the truth which we mantaine from all their reproaches I have offered to dispute the cause of Religion betwixt us and you both from Scripture and Antiquity But you doe shift the tryall from both these grounds as much as a Theif would shift to be examined by a Iurie You are therefore againe required to answere my argument From the diserepancy betwixt your now Romish Creed and the faith of the
collectivly taken or the Catholick Church cannot erre in Essentials if the faith of the Catholick Church in these ages can be found out in the undoubted writings of the Fathers in these times then Conformity with their Religion will irrefragably prove Our Religion to be the True Religion as to all Essentials Yea if from the writings of the Aâ—â—ients in these ages we can find what was the faith of any one true Particular Church we may solidly argue thence as to the Truth of Religion in essentials For though a true particular Church may erre yet so long as it is a True Church it retaines the essentials of faith else it were not a true Church This Distinction which I have proposed is not mine onely but of our PROTESTANT Writers in this question concerning The Churches infallibility As you may see in Whitaker De Ecclesia quaest 3. cap. 1. Doctor Field His way to the Church lib. 4. cap 2. And others So that it is no evasion I propound to you but the received Doctrine of the Reformed Churches and hence the rest of this your cavil on which you foolishly dilate may be cut off If we grant say you Any infallibility to the Church in these three Centuries how did that gift expyre in the fourth and after following ages It is easily Answered This infall blility which we grant to the Collective body of the Church as to the Essentials and Fundamentals of faith agrees to her in every age else the Church in some ages should be utterly lost But though we grant that the whole Catholick Church cannot erre in Fundamentals be not so foolish as to apply this to your Romish Church You might as well say that Italians are the collective body of mankind as that you Romanists are the collective body of the Catholick Church Remember Jeroms smart admonitioÌ„ In Aepistola ad Evagrium Orbis major est urbe Only this I adde that though the Catholick Church be exempted from error in Fundamentals in every age yet the Church in all ages is not blest with Equal purity and splendor For in some ages the Integrals may be much more vitiated then in others Yea some particular Churches may erre in Fundamentals and so cease to be True Churches and many of these who were eminent Lights in the Church may be smitten with these Fundamental errors and the sincere Professors of the truth may be reduced to a great Paucitie and through persecution be scattered into corners as in the dayes of Athanasius Quando totus orbis miratus est se factum Arianum Lest therefore you cavil further at the restricting of my argument to these First three Centuries you may remember the first occasion of it which was this as you will find in my Fourth Paper I was speaking of the Ancient Apologists in the first Three Centuries who pleaded the truth of the Christian Religion against Heathens And I appealed both to Their grounds and their Religion in these dayes that it might be tryed whether our Religion were not agreeable to theirs in all Essentials and whether the solid grounds which they brought for the truth of the Christian Religion did not agree to the Religion of PROTESTANTS This I say was the occasion of limiting the argument to these ages though it might have been extended further Yea and as then we told was extended further by Bishop Juel and Crakanthorp even to the Sixth Centurie so also is it by learned Whitaker Contra rarionem quintam Campiani Nay others have extended it to all ages Nor need you carp at the limiting of the argument to the first Three Centuries For the faith of the Catholick Church in these Three ages was the faith of the Catholick Church in all Ages For there is but one Faith and therefore if it be proven that our Religion was the Religion of these ages it doth consequently follow that it was the faith of the Catholick Church in all ages So that this is the most compendious way to try whether a Religion be the faith of the Church in all ages by ascending to the fountain I mean to these first three centuries concerning which there is least doubt made by any Party and which was lesse viriated by superstition or errors in integrals then was the Church in some after times I come now to your second Evasion wherein you pretend That conformity with the Ancient Church is at least no distinct ground from conformity with the Scriptures seeing the truth of the faith of the Ancient Church can onely be proven by its conformity with the Scripturs But the vanity of this subterfuge doth easily appeare For First whether it be a Distinct ground or not yet if it be a Real ground why decline you to be tryed thereby You must surely have an ill conscience and know your wares to be sophisticat that they cannot abide the light Secondly If these grounds be not distinct how doth your Melehior Canus In his booke of commone places distinguish them giveing the first place to the Seripturs of which he treats Lib. 2. only the Sixth to Ancient fathers of whome he discourseth Lib. 7 Or how doth Bellarmin and other your Controversists ordinarly distinguish their argumeÌ„â—s founded on Scripture from the arguments founded upon Antiquity But Thirdly wholly to remove this cavil I grant that the truth of Religion in any former age may be proven from its conformity with the Scriptures and therefore that conformity with the holy Scriptures is the onely Primarie ground of discerning a True Religion from a false whereupon I did put it in the first place Yet we may abstract Pro hîc nune from this way of procedour and argue from the faith of the Church in some ages without proceeding at the time to examine the truth of every point by the Scripture And the rather seeing in Scripture there are general promises of the perpetuity of the Church and consequently of preserving in her all fundamental truths If therefore we can have evidence that this was the faith of the Catholick Church I meane of the whole collective in any age then I may conclude this is the true faith and the True Religion and consequently what is agreeable thereto must also be the True Religion for nothing can be consonant to truth but truth From this it appeares that sisting in the Religion of the Catholick Church in the Second and Third Centurie as a Principle upon the general promise of the Churches perpetuity without a further progresse for the time to examine the truth of every particular it may become in some manner a Distinct ground of argueing from that according to which every point is severally reduced to Scripture-tryal Even as in Subalternas sciences the Conclusions of the Subalternant science are made use of as Principles without making a further progresse The Astronomer takes the Geometricians Conclusion as a Priuciple not seeking a Demonstration thereof So may the Divine in some cases take the faith of the
Catholick Church in the Second or Third Centurie and argue thence as from a Principle especially when he hath to doe with an Adversarie who may admit the faith of the Ancient Church as a Test and will decline the Scriptures under pretext of obscarity or ambiguity Yea as I have said before A Divine may in such a case argue from the faith of one true Particular Church Suppose that an Original writ were either lost or blotted and blurred from which there hath been several Transumpts taken and that there were two persons pretending to have Transumpts but each of them questioning the fidelity of the others Transumpt This Question could not be decided by the Original it being supposed either to be lost or blotted utterly and blurred and neither of the two Parties willing yeeld to one another But there being found another Transump which both the Parties acknowledge to have been the First Copie that was taken from the Original Could there be any way so good for decyding the Question next to the compareing of both the Transumpts with the Original if it could be had or were clear as to compare the two controverted Copies with this uncontroverted Transumpt In this case would not he who shunned to bring his Copie to the tryall leave a strong presumption that his Paper were but a forged draught Now though all the authority which the unquestioned Transumpt hath was derived from its conformity with the Original yet in these circumstances it may have the place of a Test to distinguish betwixt true and adulterat Copies The application is obvious The Papists like old Hereticks accuse Scriptures as being blotted and blurred yea as in a manner lost The Originals if you may be beleeved being corrupted albeit indeed Scripture is clear and by the good hand of GOD preserved to this day Yet seeing you sometimes seeme to magnify Antiquity as if you did acknowledge the faith of the Ancient Church to be a faithful Transumpt from that authentick Original of the Scriptures what more condescension can we PROTESTANTS in this case show to you Then seeing you will not be judged by the Scriptures which are out Heavenly Fathers authentick Testament then I say to acquiesce that the cause betwixt us be tryed by that Transumpt which you seeme to acknowledge And when you decline this tryal also doth it not speake you out to be real Prevaricators and Cavillers But because some may wonder whence it is that you doe not onely decline a tryall by Scripture but also by Antiquity I will here open the Mysterie that lurkes under it Though you Romanists seeme somtimes to magnify Fathers Councils and Antiquity yet there are none who set them more at nought then you as if you put me to it I will make good by particular instances And therefore laying them aside it is onely your present Romish Church that is your sure Author-hold And by your present Church your Jesuited Partie meanes only the Pope I doe not stander you Hear your great Champion Gretser who comes in to succour Bellarmin at a dead lift Tom. 1. Defens cap. 10. lib. 3. Bellarmin De ver be Dei colum 1450. Quando Ecclesiam dicimus esse omnium controversiarum fidei juaicem intelligimus Pontisicem Romanum qui pre teâ—pore praesens naviculam militantis Ecclesiae moderatur When we affirme sayeth he the Church to be the judge of all controversies of faith by the Church we understand the Bishop of Rome who for the time being Governs the ship of the Militant Church So that there is no security for your unhappie Religion unlesse ye be made Chancelours in your own Assyze If it be asked how shall any know that the Romish Church is the True Church The answere must be because she that is her head the Pope sayes she is the True Church If it be againe asked how shall it be known that the Pope is the Head of the Church The answere must be because he sayes he is it But how shall it be known that he is Infallible in so saying The answere must be because he sayes this is his prerogative And how shall it be known that the Romish Religion is the onely True Religion The onely plaine answere is because the Pope whose grandour is mantained thereby sayes it is the True Religion And how shall it be known that the Religion of PROTESTANTS is a Wrong Religion Because forsooth the Pope whose triple Crown is shaken by the Religion of Protestants sayes that it is an heretical Religion Alace abcel that poore simple people should be so miserably cheaâ—ed and seduced GOD I trust will erre long open their eyes to see these damnable impostures You had asserted in your last That every supernatural act of faith must be founded on the foreknowledge of the infallible assistance of the Popounders of divine truths To which in my last I had Replyed many thing most of which according to your custome you never once touch I must therefore reminde you of the heads of them As First you were demanded who these Infallible Propounders are Whether you Romanists can agree upon them Whether you can produce grounds for their infallibility from Scripture or Universal Tradition I hope you will not pretend every one of your Shavelings to be infallible Yea I brought luculent evidence that both Popes and General Councils may erre and have erred Secondly I asked whereupon the Faith of these pretended Infallible Propounders was builded and wherein they differed from Enthusiasts Thirdly supposing Pope or Council or both had this Infalliblity yet seeing the people receive their sentence from the mouth of such fallible and fallacious persons as you how can they be assured that either you have not taken up the sense of their Decrees wrong or that for base ends you doe not falsifie them And Fourthly how it can be known who are your Clergie men that are gifted with this assistance seeing the efficacie of Sacraments of which Ordination with you is one dependeth on the secret intention of the Priest But none of these doe you once touch Are not you fitter to be a Trencher Chaplaine to a Biggotted and implicit Proselit then a Disputant I Might here also comit you with the late Patrons of your Traditionarie Way particularly with Master Cressy who in his Exomologesis Cap. 51. Sect. 4. Acknowledges That the pastors of the Church proceed not now as the Apostles did with a peculiar infallible direction of the holy Spirit but with prudential collection not alwayes necessarie and that to the Apostles such an infallible certainty of means was necessarie but not so now to the Church And in his chap. 40. Sect. 3. He acknowledges the unfortunatness of that word infallibility And said that he could find no such word in any Council and that there appeared no necessity to him that any PROTESTANT should ever have heard that word named let be pressed with so much earnestness and that Master Chillingworth hath combated that word
is now guiltie of the impertinent Digression you or I the Reader may judge All the colour you could put upon this shameless and cowardly tergiversing is That it seemes say you These large discourses of mine are copied out of controversie Writers But why would not you copie an Answere thereto out of your controversie Writers Why at least doe you not name The Authors with whom I had made so bold Especially I having in my last given a particular instance of the Plagiary trade of Jesuits and appealed you if you could to convict me of the like cryme If you put me to it I will rip up yet more of their sores of this nature Could the confutation of all your Papers in Two Words be copied from any Author But I had so brow-beaten this cavil before that like a self condemned Malefactor who to use Tertullians phrase is Acorde suo fugitivus you dare not now positively affirme it only say you It seems But I wil deale more squarely with you You not onely seeme but really are an effronted calumniator If you take ill with this freedome learne henceforth to affirme no more then you are able to prove Had it not been to cleare a little of the matter of Fact against these your lying representations of the first occasion of this debate I had not denzied a returne to this your impertinet Paper wherein you have not answered one word that was replyed to you But I am the rather moved to examine these your calumnies because it is long since I heard that Scurvie Lybels to this purpose were disseminated by persons of your professioÌ„ and now I find that by this your Paper you doe homologate the same reproaches Yet no to notice these diffamatorie Pasquils which no man durst owne I shall at the time only discover the falshood of some few of your allegeances in this your Eight Paper And First you say That this debate was occasioned by our continual railing against your pretended Catholick Religion As if it were our custome to charge your Religion falsly with these things which you doe not mantaine A great crime I acknowedge if it were a truth But why did you not for the satisfaction of the Reader and our conviction instance some of these falshoods Doe you not hereby manisest the calumniating genius by which you have been acted all along Know therefore that we PROTESTANTS hold it not lawful to lie for GOD. Job 13.7 The truth of GOD needs not mens lies to support it Did I see that the PROTESTANT cause could not be mantained without calumnies and falshoods I should instantly disowne it as not being of GOD. I reckone it my mercie that I have been helped in some measure to give a faithful testimony against the Abominations of Poperie and wil account it my duety so to doe while I live I have inded said it from Pulpit and I hope I have also made it good that your Romish Doctors have corrupted much both of the Dogmaticals and Practicals of Christianity And what I have said herein I shall be readie through the grace of GOD to mantaine not onely against such an Ignoramus as you but the whole unhallowed crew of Jesuits This hath been often charged upon you and demonstrated against you by our Divines But because I see you are not for large Volumes I shall remit you at present onely to a little but learned tractare to this purpose writen by Doctor Jeremy Taylor Entituled A Dissuasive from Poperie But what Doeth a Jesuit accuse us of Railing Doth not the World know that persidious lying and equivocation are the Piae fraudes the holy I should have said Hellish Chears whereby their cause is mantained Have they ever been able to wipe off those staines which Watson their own Romish secular Priest fixed upon their societie in so much that he is not afraid to say that Lucian Machiavel yea and Don Lucifer might goe to school and learne Satanical practises from your Jesuits And as for you is it not too too apparent by all these your Papers that you serve for nothing unlesse it be to rail and lie like a Shimet At arguing have you not proven according to the Proverb Quaesi asinus ad lyram Remember therefore that smart admonition Matth 7.5 Thou Hypocrite first cast the beame out of there own eye then shall thou see clearly to cast the mote out of thy brothers eye You are pleased Secondly to say That in stead of impugning your Catholick dogmes as you terme them We propound to the people and that in a radiculous manner so gravely forsoth doe you occuse us Problematick points out of your Casuists and Schoolmen If you Iesuits were not Persons Effrontis imprâ—bitatis linguae effrauis habituated in confident asserting of lies would you not have examined the truth of this report before you had given it under your hand Whether we behave our selves ridiculously in Pulpit grave Auditors can witnesse Indeed if the Supremacie of your Pope and the infallibility of your Church if your Transubstantiation and Sacrifice of the Masse it your Adoring of Images and invocating of Saincts and Angels if your Purgatorie and Praying for the Dead c. If these I say and such as these be the Problematick points you speake of Them I confesse we doe publickly propound and solidly confute If these be onely Problemes which a man may innoceÌ„tly affirme or deny why for opposing these doe you Romanists anathematize PROTESTANTS Why have you brunt so many of them alive and cruelly imbrewed your hands in the blood of so many thousands of them Sometimes I deny not occasions may occurre of speaking concerning the particular tenets of some of your Doctors But then judcious Hearers can beare us witnesse for we teach nothing in a corner that we no otherwayes represent these then as the judgement of such Doctors This appeared when I was confuting from Pulpit that impious tenet which I suppose is the Probleme you hint at of many of your Doctors That a sinner is not bound by the law of GOD immediatly after he hath sinued to repent For in Pulpit I did onely charge it upon many of your Doctors But though we be so ingenuous in representing the tenets of your Doctors I shall desire you to confider what a staine and reflexion these impious tenets of particular Doctors among you leave upon your Romish Church Are they not published with the approbation of your Authorised Licencers of books as containing nothing Contrary to the Catholick Faith Are either Authors or Licencers of the books censured by your Church Have not your Expurgatoris indices deleted much better stuffe in the writings boon of Ancient and Moderne Authors whereof you may find many examples in Doctor Iames his excellent booke of The corruption of Scriptures Councils and Fathers by the Prelats Pastors and Pillars of the Church of Rome part 4 But the impious tenets or your Casuists and Schoolmen stend uncensured with the
that your Romish Church like an old Whoore doth still wax worse and worse How often have our Divines demonstrated that your Romish Church is much more corrupt and grosse in her Tenets since the Council of Trent then before Doe not we know how often you set at nought Old Doctors when they agree not with the principles of your Present Papal faction Hence your Jesuit Escobar Tom. 1. theol moral in praeloq cap. 2. num 8. frequenter accidit sayeth he ut quae opinio paucis ab hinc annis in â—su non erat mode communi consensu recipiatur è contra Yea though you doe vainly brage of your Unity how few points of controversie are there betwixt you and us wherein you are not sub-divyded amongst your selves You may find this learnedly made out by Doctor Morton in his Appeale for PROTESTANTS out of the confession of Roman Doctors I will give you but one Instance at the present Your Papal indulgences are one of your now received Romish articles and yet some of your Ancient Doctors mantained them to be but Pias fraudes meere impostures So our of your Aquinas testifyeth Gregorie de Valentia lib. de indulg cap. 2. It may be Objected secondly That your Jesuit Escobar hath disputed may safely goe away he is not bound to doe it but may without sinne kill the man who intends to strick him though but lightly or if the Priest be consulted by another that over-reaches in his passion he may flatter him declaring with the same Tolet. Lib. 4. cap. â—3 num 4. That if a man be in a great passion so transported that he considers not what he sayes if in that case he doth blaspheme his blasphemie is not mortal sinne So may the Priest sooth them who commit horrid crimes in their drunkenness with the foresaid Cardiual Tolet. lib. 5. cap. 10. num 3. That if a man be beastly drunk and then commit fornieation that formeation is not sinne Yea he may with the same Cardinal lib. 5. cap. 13. num 2. Declare that if a man desires carnal pollution that he may evite carnal temptations or for his health it were no sinne Time would fail me in reckoning out such Probable nay Damnable Doctrines of your Casuists according to which your Confessors can determine exceeding many cases sutable to the inclination of the party with whome they have to doe either according to their own opinion or according to the opinion of some other Grave Doctor And what ever is delivered according to a probable opinion may be warrantably practised though there be another more probable Quaelibet opinio probabilis tutam reddit conseâ—entiam in operando sayeth your Escobar Tom. 1. Theol. Moral lib. 2. Sect. 1 cap. 2. num 22. Now shall your Casuists be permitted to introduce such unheard of impieties into the World by the pretended authoritie of Out grave Doctor without check or controll Shall their Problematick decisions warrand such shavelings as you to encourage lewd persons to murther their Neighbour blaspheme GOD violat womens chastity and cut off Princes for to that purpose also they have many Problematick decisions and when we oppose these impieties shall we be rated as ridiculous Railers Doth your Church of Rome thinke to wash her hands in innocency as if she were not guilty of these impious decisions because they are not ratified by the decree of a General Council What I pray you bath she decreed against them Your Religion at least is such with which all these impieties are wel consistent There is nothing in your Religion repugnant to them But besides are not these Casuistick tractats writen by your gravest Doctors in the face of the Sun under the Popes nose Is not this pernicious doctrine of Probables publickly avouched and known among you Yea are not these bookes approven by your authorised Licencers who are intrusted to looke Ne fides Ecclesiae detrimenti aliquid patiatur Your Church therefore will never be able to vindicat her self either before GOD or rational Men from being an abettor of these impieties Nay this leaves an undenyable conviction upon the consciences of your own authors in so much that Dominicus a Soto cited by Doctor Taylor in his Dissuaesive cap. 2. sect 1. I am so fat from stealing as often times doe your Jesuits that I ingenuously tell you when I have not a booke by me sayeth Non ilico ut â—â—mo se reum sentit culpae paenitentiae lege paenitere constringitur Haec profecto conclusie more usu Ecclesiae satis videtur constabilita Where he charges your Church with this Prophans doctrinâ— which hardens men in impenitencie But of this enough for the time After your impertinent and calumnious Digression concerning the first occasion of our Debate and your Problematick points for my worke in all these eight Papers hath been to follow a roving Vagrant from one impertinencie to another you claver to as little purpose concerning the sense of holy Scripture Before say you that our Religion be proven from Scripture it must be first proven that we PROTESTANTS have the true sense of Scripture But First Ought you not remember that in this writen debate you doe sustaine the part of the Opponent might it not therefore be better retorred upon you thus Before you prove that the PROTESTANTS have not the True Religion you ought first to prove that they have not the true sense of Scripture And may it not be a convinceing argument Ad Hominem against you that PROTESTANTS have the true sense of Scripture and consequently the True Religion seeing in all these Eight Papers you who appeared as the Romish Champion to disprove the Religion of PROTESTANTS have not been able to produce one Medium to prove the falshood of their Religion or of their sense of holy Scripture But it seems that you would willingly forget that you are the Opponent I wonder nothing that you who turne the weighty points of the Law to Problems should make a Probleme of this matter of fact how evident so ever it be So miserably have you discharged the Opponents office that you may truely be ashamed to owne it But SecoÌ„dly Could I make fairer proffers to you then I have done Have I not offered to disput whether PROTESTANTS have the True Religion and the true sense of Scripture both by Intrinsick Arguments from the Series of the context of Scripture from parallel places and the analogie of faith as also by a more Extrinsick test namely the conformity of Religion with the faith of the most Ancient Christian Church But as a perfect Coward who distrusted your cause you durst adventure on neither of these Nay all your cavils which once you started against both these grounds such as a catalogue of necessaries rules of interpretation of Scripture c. I have so convinceingly confuted that you have not dated once to mention them againe in this your last Paper Yea Thirdly Flave I not gone a further length and
Verdict of Pope Gregorie the first concerning the deed of Serenus Bishop of Massils for breaking the Images which he saw abused to Idolatrie Lib. 9. epist 9. Et quideus quia eas adorari vetuisses emnino laudamus Hereupon your Cassander in Consult art 21. De picturis sayeth he Quae fuerit mens sententia Rom iuae Ecclesiae adbuc aetate Gregorii satis ex ejus scriptis manifest um est viz. Ideo hiberi picturas non quidem ut colantur adorentur sed ut imperiti picturis inspiciendis haud aliter as literis legendis rerum gestarum admonerentur Yea the Council of Eliberis câ—x 36. More ancient as is supposed then the Nicen expresly prohibited the drawing of pictures in Churches But to manifest how little regard you Romanists have to Antiquity when it playes not to your Tune your Melchior Canus lib. 5. loc Cont. cap. 4. Speaking of this Ancient Canon sayes Lex illa non imprudenter modo verum etiâ—â—â— impie a concilio Elibertino est lata de tollendis imaginibus Inst. 2. Your present Romish Church pantainet that prodigious and bloody tenet of Iransubstantiation in the Sacranent Not so the Ancient Romish Church As appearet by the withâ—g of Gelasius Bishop of Rome contra Nestor Et Eutych in tom 4. biblioth Patrum where expresly he sayes Non desinit substantia panis vini This testimony is so luculent that your Cardinals Bellarmine and Barronius would question whether that Tractat were writen by Gelasius Bishop of Rome although it passe under his name in Bibliotheca Patrum and would ascrive it to another Gelasius Cyzicenus or Caesariensis But you may see these allegeances learnedly consured by Doctor Iohn Forbes of Corse in his Iustruc historico theol lib. 11. cap. 16. And giving but not granting that there allegeances were true yet that Gelasius Cyzicenus as also Caesariensis are acknowledged to be Catholick authors and more ancient then Gelasins Bishop of Rome And the same which Gelasius asserts of the tem â—oiâ—g of the substance of Bread and Wine in the Sacrament is affirmed by other ancient and Catholick Authors particularly by Tâ—endoret dialog 2. Hence your own Scotus if Bellarmine may be credited Lab. 3. ' De Euâ—har cap. 23. Acknowledged that Transubstantiation was no article of saith before the late Lateran Council under Innocent the thâ—d Anno. 1215. Inst 3. Your present Romish Church mantaines the publickâ—solemne and ordnarie celebration of the Sacrament of the Lords Supper under one kinde Not so the Ancient Romish Church As appeares by Pope Leo the first who in his Seâ—m 4. de quadragesim condemnes the partaking of the Bread wiâ—â— out die Cup as a Manichean abomination Hence your Cassanâ—er in consult art 21 De administratione sacro sancti sacraments Eucharistiassatis compertum est Vniversalem Christs Ecclesiam in hanc usque diem Occidentaelem vero seu Romanam mille ampiâ—nâ— Ã Christ annis in solcr ni praesertim ordinaria hujus Sacraments dess ensatione utrainque paris vins speciem omnibus Ecclesiae Christs merâ—br is exhâ—luâ—sse â—d quod ex â—â—umeris veterum Scriptorum tam Graecorum quam latinerum testimonâ—â— manisestum est Bus seeing I mentioned Pope Leo's sermons let â—â—â—â—member you that Ancient Bishops of Rome such as Lce and Gregorie c. were Preaching Bishops not so your Present Popes Yea your Bellarmin to apolog zâ— for these your Idol shepherds hath not spared to say Lib. 3. De Pont. Rom. cap 24. Non tenentur Pontifices per se concionars Satis est st curent per alios ista prastari If they Preach onely by Proxies take heed they goe not to Heaven onely by prexies also Have you not heard how your Espencaus and others of the more moderat sort among you have bitterly lamented this prophane and lazie desuetud of preaching in your Popes Inst 4. Your present Romish Church mantaines the Popes universal suprcamacie and his Title of universal Bishop Not so the Ancient Romish Church As appeares by Pope Gregorte the first his many invectives against that title as a title of Noveltie Error Impiery Blasphemie c. I give you but two testimonies from him I be one is In lib. 6. Aepist 30. Ego fidenter dico quisquis se universalem sacerdotem vocat vel vocari desiderat in elatione sua antichristum praecurrit quia superbiendo se caeteris praeponit The other is In lib. 4. Aepist 36. Nullus decessorum meorum hoc prophano vocabulo universalis Episcopi uti consensit Thus your verie Popedome it self whose vitals seeme to consist in this Vniversal supreamacie is condemned by the Ancient Church of Rome Hence Cyprian with eightie and seven Bishops in an African council sayeth Neque quisquam nostrum Episcopum se esse episcoporum constituit aut tyrannico terrore collegas suos ad obsequends necessitatem adigu Where he cals it a tyrannical terror for one Bishop to impose on others Inst 5. Your present Romish Church mantaines the Apocryphal bookes to be canonical and of equal authority with the undoubted Seriptures of GOD. Not so the Ancient Romish Church As any eares by lerome and Gregorie if your own Occam may be credited In Dialog part 3. lib. 3. can 16. Secundum Hieronymum sayeth he Et Gregorium liber ludith Tobiae Maccabiorum Ecclesiasticus liber sapientiae non sunt recipiendi ad confirmandum aliquid in fids This same you will find copiâ—â—sl deâ—â—onstrated by Doctor Cosin in his Scholastical historie of the canon of Scripture Inst 6. You Jesuits who are the prevalent faction at the present in your Romish Church and your Canonists mantaine the dominion and jurisdiction of your Pape over Princes So did not the Ancient Romish Church As appeares by Pope Gregorie the first who thus writer to the Emperour Maurice lib. 2. epist 61. Sacerdotes meos tuae manus commisi Utrobique ergo quae debui exsolvi qui Imperatori obedientiam praebui pro DEO quod sensi minime tacui Know you not Bernards inference from the Apostles word Rom. 13.1 Let every Soul be subject to the higher Poriers writing to a great man of your Romish Church Siomnis anima tum vestra quis vos excipit ex universitate si quis tentat excipere tentat decipere And have you not heard of Chrysostoms enumeration long before him In epist. ad Rom. cap. 13. hom 23. Sive Apostolus sis sive Propheta sive Evangelista sive Sacerdos subditus sis Inst 7. Your present Romish Church mantaines Papal indulgences for easing soules under the paines of Purgatorie Not so the Ancient Romish Church For there is no mention of such indulgences in al Antiquity Nay so novel is that invention that they are not mentioned either by Gratian or Lombard who were so verie diligent in gathering up al your Romish chaffe and stuble Hence your Durand in 4. sent disp 20. quaest 3. § 4. Sayeth De indulgentiis pauca dici pissunt per
certitudinem quia nec Scriptura expresse de eis loquitur Sancti etiam Ambrosius Hil. rius Augustinus Hieronimus minime loquuntur de indulgentia And your Aiphonsus à Castro lib. 8. de Haeres Tit. Indulgentiae â—mer omnes res sayethâ—â— De quilus in hoc opere disputamus nulla est qu im minus aperte sâ—â—crae literae prâ—â—â—â—â—â—int de qua minus vetusti scriptores dixeâ—int And your Rassensis contra Lutherum art 18. Quis jam mirari potest quod in principio nascentis Ecclesiae nullus fuit indulgenti trum 〈◊〉 Where he plainly conâ—esses that there was no use for these Indulgerces in the prinâ—inve Church Yea your Agrippa de vanitate seien cap. 61. Is bold to doreâ—mine the first broacher of this impierie namely Bomsare the eight who lived a thousand and three hundred yeares after Christ He was the first sayeth Agrippa who extended Indulgences to Purgatorie I know Bellarmine Lib. 1. de Indulg cap. 3. and other Your Romish Authors that they might seeme to lay some claime to Antiquity alledge that Gregorie the first give indulgences In diebus stationum And for this they cue Aquinas and Altisiodorensis But you may see this alleageance judiciously confuted by Doctor John Forbes in his Instruct historico-theol lib. 12. cap. 8. § 13. For though it were as they affirme it would fall short of Primitive Antiquity Gregorie living about six hundred yeares after Christ But no such thing is affirmed by Gregorie himself in all his writings or by any contemporarie Author yea or by any credible Historian for the space of other six hundred yeares thereafter What credit then is to be given to two of your Superstitious-schoolmen who lived above six hundred yeares after Gregorie Especially seeing to these other School-men of eminent fame testifying the contrary are opposed by our Authors as particularly by Doctor Morton in his Appeal lib. 1. cap. 2. sect 20. and by Gerard tom 5. loc de Eccles cap. 11. sect 6. § 206. your great Autoninus whom also youn ave Saincted is cited Part. 1. sum titul 10. cap. 3. saying De ind dgentiys nibil expresse habemus nec in scripturis necex dictis antiqu rum doctorum Chemnitius produceth the like testimonies out of Magister Augelus or as some write him Angularis and Sylvester Prieras which Bellarmine in his Reply to Chemnitius testimonies Lib. 2. de indulg cap. 17. doeth quite and quieâ—lie omit They thatâ—vo â—â— infer any thing conceraing Indulgences as extended to Purgatorie from the Stations used in the Aucient Church discover them elves to be grosly agnorant of the nature of Stations amonest the Ancients as may be seene in Doctor John Forbes his Instâ—uc histâ—◠〈…〉 cit § 14. Should I enumerate more Irslances wherein your Present Romish Church is found 〈…〉 the Ancient Romish Church and to other Ancient 〈…〉 I should perhaps â—tempr your patience too much for 〈◊〉 to be verie sherâ—oâ—â—â—thed Onely now from these to 〈◊〉 let me renew my Argument this If the Ancient Romish Church And the trâ—e sense of holy Scripture as you dare not deny then surdly your Present Romish Church in many things hath not the true sonse of Scripture Seeing the sense of your present ROMIâ—H Church is contradictorie in many thinges to the the sense of the Ancient Romish Church and two controdictories cannot be true Consequently therefore seeing our PROTESTANT Churches doe agree with the Ancient Romish and other Catholick churches in these things wherein they are contradicted by you consequently I say we Protestants must have the true sense of holy Scripture in these Negatives also Quod erat demonstranduÌ„ Perhaps you may lay aside al these things as imperineÌ„t DigressioÌ„s as you have done other things before But let an impartial Reader compare your Papers and mine have the umpirege betwixt us You clamour greatly that my last Paper was not returned sooner to you As if I had no worke to doe in School or Pulpit but to revise your Pasquils GOD knowes whether your raw Rapsodies require much time to confute them I confesse neither Quakers Sermons not your Papers require much Studie Albeit you as seems to counterfie a piece of more quick dispacth have dated most of all your Papers some dayes before they came to my hand But I should advise you if you would have your lines of any significancie to take some more time to them Fistina lente Have you not heard how that Zeuxes the curious Painter bâ—iâ—g demanded why he tooke so much time in drawing his draughts answered Pingo Aeternitati If I be justly blameable for any thing in this exchange of Papers with you it is that ever I should have denzied an answere since the first to such tantolig zing babâ—iâ—gs But seeing you seem only to contend for the last woâ—d how impertineÌ„s so ever I can easily indnige that to an emptie vaine glorious Rabula Yet to let you know that the whâ—le last Paper remaines unanswered I will subjâ—ine yet againe the former socciâ—ct confutation of all your Eight Papers in two words with which alone you may deals if this â—argâ—t discourse oâ— too burthensome to your lazie head Aberdene Ianuary 31 1667. Iohn Menzeis A succinct Confutation of all Master Dempster the Iesuit his eight Papers in two words Nego Minorem Or Nego Conclusionem Aberdene Ianuary 31. 1667. Iohn Menzeis Roma diu titubans variis erroribus acta Corruet mundi desinet esse caput The Iesuits ninth Paper Answere to an eight Paper of Mr. IOHN MENZEIS wherein is confirmed that the pretended conformity of Protestant Religion with Scripture is a meer imaginar and groundlesse conformity 8. February 1667. YOur Papers carieing the date of the thirtyone of Iannary came to my hands the sixth of February wherein you complain that 〈◊〉 the pretext of prolixity of your Papers does not answere to the contents of them 〈◊〉 your thou doe not fail to answere to the I omes of Bellarmine notwithstanding of their great vastues But it is not the Prolixity that makes your Papers to be slighted but the Barrennes and superfluity of them being stuffed with all sort of Digressions and diverticles out of the way Mend your self in this bring only things that are proportionat to show a solid difference betwixt the Protestant ReligioÌ„ afalse ReligioÌ„ which is the onely thing controverted with you from the beginning and you shall be fully answered though you should writ whole Tomes for you know how often it hath been protested that there would be taken no notice at all of any thing you bring out of the line And to speake onely of the superflaous excursiores that you use in the same verie Last Paper What makes it to â—â— our purpose your Digressions about Images about Transs bstantiation about Communion under one kind about The Popes Supremacie about Apocryphal bookes about Indulgences Purgatorie c Likewise what makes it to our purpose your long and tedious discourse whereby you labour to
Christian Religion to dilate upon Pedantick notions more proper for School-Boyes then Divines But suppose you had discussed it utterly there remaine other Six answeres which you have never once touched I proceed now to that which you call my Second Answere wherein you bring me in answering That it appears that we have the true sense of Scripture because our sense is conforme to the sense of the Fathers of the first three Centuries I know not whether to call this a Delirium or a Dreame For in that Eight and Last Paper of mine to which only you now answere there is no mention of the Fathers in the First three Centuries I had indeed upon another occasion in some former Papers offered to examine the truth of Religion by conformity to the faith of the Church in these three Centuries and had so confuted all your objections against that Test that in your Last you had made no Reply thereto Wherefore in My last I onely insinuated some challenges for your â—ergiversing speaking nothing to that particular but brought not in this Directly as an Answere to this Cavill of yours But though you in your Reply stagger like a Drunken-man going back and fore leaping from one Paper to another yet because in a Former Paper I was willing to have tryed whether our Religion or yours be the true Catholick Religion By examining the conformity thereof with the faith of the Ancient Church in the first threee hundred years I doe stand to it and shall examine what you Reply hereto First then you say That I resile from Calvine our foundator who disclaimed the Fathers in many things and taxed them of erros and so did other Reformers harp upon this string that the doctrines of the Fathers should be examined be the Scriptures But First how call you Calvine our foundator Were not ZUINGLIUS LVTHER OECOLAMPAIUS MELANCHTON c. Prior to CALVINE Were not HIIROM of Prague and IOHN HUS whome your Council of Constance did treacherously murther before these And WICKLEF before them And the Waldenses prior to him Of whome your Friar Reyner cited by Morney in Myster Iniq. edit 2. pag. 731. gave this testimony That the Waldenses continued from the days of Pope Sylvester yea some say sayeth Reyner from the Apostles dayes How absord then are you to call Calvine our foundator Nay come to the Tryall and if our Religion be found of latter standing then since the dayes of the Apostles I will disclaime it For I assent to Tertullian lib. 4. contra Marcion cap. 5. Id verius quod prius id prius quod ab initio id ab initio quod ab Apostolis But Secondly why charge you Calvine as taxing the Fathers with some errors Who have been more liberall in the Censures of the Fathers then you Romanists Take a few instances Bell. lib. 1. De Beatitud Sanct. cap. 6. after he had objected to himself the testimonies of Iustine Martyr Irenaus Epiphanius c. answeres Eorum sententiam non video quo pacto possimus ab errore defendere Maldonat the Iesuit expounding these words Matt. 16.18 The gates of Hell shall not prevail against her sayes quorum verborum sensus non mihi videtur esse quem omnes praeter Hilarium quos legisse me memini Authores putant And on these words Matth. 11.11 He that is least in the kingdome of Heaven is greater then Iohn the Baptist After he had brought many expositions of Ancients at length concludes Libere fatebor in nulla prorsus earum meum qualecunque ingenium acquiescere Melchior Canus in lib. 7. loc com cap. 1. num 3. affirmes that though all the Fathers with one mouth conclude the Virgine Mary to be guiltie of Original sinne yet that is an argument of little weight and that the contrarie is piously defended in the Church Heare his own words Sancti omnes qui in ejus rei mentionem incidere uno ore asseverarunt Beatam Virginem in peccato Originali conceptam cum nullus sanctorum contravenerit infirmum tamen ex omnium authoritate argumentum ducitur quin potius contraria sententia probabiliter pie in Ecclesia defenditur You may see multitudes of more instances of your Romanists contemning and condemning of Fathers in Dallaus de usu Patrum lib. 2. cap. 6. and in Doctor Iames his Treatise of the corruption of Scripture Councill and Fathers by the Prelats Pastors and Pillars of the Church of Rome Part. 4. I shall onely now adde two more out of learned Dallaeus The One is of your Iesuit Brisacerius who in a Disput against Collaghanus a Iansenist When the Iansenist had objected many of the authorities of Ancients the Iesuit called the authorities of Councils and Fathers Regulas mortuas quaunllum alium vigorems habent quam quem iis dat viventis ac praesentis Ecclesiae approbatie vel interpretatio That is Dead rules which have no further significancy or worth then they receive from the approbation of the present living Church that is the Pope as they know who are acquaint with your Iesuit-Dialect Yea the same Iesuit yet more ignominiously calls the Authorities of Fathers Vitulinos franos that is bridles wherewith onely brutes such as Bullocks and young Hiefers suffer themselves to be musled up The other Testimony shall be that of Cornelius Mussus Bishop of Bitonto one of the famous Prelats of your Council of Trent in epist ad Rom. cap. 14. Ego sayeth he ut ingenue fatear plus uni Summe Pontifici credorem in his quae fidei mysteria tangunt quam mille Augustinis Hieronimis Gregoriis nedicam Richardis Scotis Gulielmis Crede enim scie quod Summus Pontifex in his quae fidei sunt errare non potest quoniam authoritas determinandi quae ad fidem spectant in Pontifice residet Did ever Protestants speak so disdainfully or contemptuously of Ancient Fathers by which it may appear that you Romanists use the Fathers as Merchants doe their casting Counters which sometime stand for pounds somtime for shillings somtimes for pennies and sometime for nothing as they serve their interest But Thirdly wherein have I resiled from Calvine and other Reformers Did Calvine looke upon Fathers as persons obnoxious to error So doe I. And so did Fathers judge of themselves as Austine witnesses Epist 19. ad Hieron Hence is that of your Melchier Canus lib. 7. cap. 3. num 4. Hanc falicitatem Deus in solis divinis voluminibus inesse voluit ut in iis non esset quicquam erroris cateroquin nemo quant umvis eruditus sanctus non interdum hallucinatur non alicubi cacutit non quandoque labitur Doth Calvine or other Reformers say that the doctrine of Ancients is to be examined by the Scriptures Never said I any thing to the contrary nay I cordially subscribe to that apostolick Anathema If an Angel let be a Father shall teach any other Gospel to us let him be accursed Yet notwithstanding all this
might have been revealed and no obligation laid upon us to believe them And in this you blame me That I only proved by the Scripture-instances which I brought that there is no actuall separation betwixt all the truths contained in Scripture and the true Religion but did not prove them insenarable But if you looke againe to my Paper you will find that your inadvertencie is onely to be blamed For I did prove the absolute inseparabilitie betwixt all the truths contained in Scripture and the true Religion Which againe I thus demonstrate according to the grounds laid downe in my Last If all the truths in Scripture cannot be without an obligation to believe them in order to the obtaining of Salvation then All the truths of Scripture cannot be except they compound a Religion But the first is true therefore also the last The Sequel of the Major is clear because this is the only pretence upon which you suppose that all Scripture Truths may be and yet compound no Religion because they may be and yet no obligation be laid upon us to believe them If therefore they cannot be except an obligation be laid on us to believe them then surely they cannot be except they compound a Religion It remaines therefore only that we prove the Assumption that they all cannot be revealed without an obligation to believe them and this is cleare from the Scriptures cited in my Last Paper because this is one of the Truths in those Scriptures that we are obliged to believe these Truths And I cited purposlie these Scripturs to prove this And therfore it is impossible that all Scripture truths can be and we not be obliged to believe them For this is one Scripture truth that we are obliged to believe the Truths revealed in Holy Scripture What now I have demonstrated more prolixlie I set downe clearly enough though more succinctly in my Last Albeit it seemes you have been so taken up with your Precifive airie Notions that you have not understood the Paper which was sent to you But to prevent your further mistake in this I thinke it fit to let you know that I distinguish betwixt these two I doe indeed confesse that a Religion may be though nothing be coÌ„mitted to Writing And this was the case of the Ancient Church before Moses But this concernes not our present debate But the thing I deny is That all the truths contained in Scripture way be and yet make no Religion at all And this I hope now I have demonstrated against you both in this and in the former Paper Though your Notional precisions have made either your sight or your judgement Preseind from the Paper which you should have examined and consequently from the purpose By these hints you may consider whether you have added any strength to your insignificant Objection Concerning the sense of Scripture But because you are still harping upon this Cavil About the sense of the Scriptures It would appear that you Looke upon Scripture as so obscure as not able to be a ground for decision of controversies in Religion unless there be some infallible visible-judge I shall desire you to consider how different you are in your apprehersions as to this matter from the Ancient Church in which the decision of Controversies in Religion was committed sometime to Secular persons yea sometime to Heathens which your self will confesse not to be Infallible Have you not read that writing which passeth under the name of Vigilius Bishop of Trent in which there is a dispute betwixt Sabellius Photinus and Arius upon the one side and Athanasius on the other concerning the Trinitie and Deitie of the Lord Jesus Christ and Probus a Heathen is constituted judge to determine betwixt them not according to his own fancy but according to the proofes which they should produce from the Scriptures and after hearing of both he gives sentence for the Truth This dispute you will find set forth among Cassanders works from Page 460. and the sentence of Probus the Judge page 506. c. I doe not say that this Conference was real for the Collocutors were not contemporarie Yet the Learned and Ancient Author of this Dialogue who by some is supposed to be Pope Galosius doth clearly insinuate that the most sublime Mysteries of Christianity are so luculently revealed in Scripture that a meer Pagane may finde out the true sense of Scripture concerning them Have you nor tâ—ad in Epiphanius haeres 66. how that Archelaus an Orthodox Bishop had a dispute against the pernicious Heretick Manet in Caschara a City of Mesopotamia and how by commone consent they â—â—bâ—â—icâ—ed unto Foure Heathen Judges to Marcipus a Phil sâ—ph to Claudius a Physitian to Aegialous a Gramariare and to Clerbâ—lus a Sophister who after hearing adjudged the Victorie to Archelaus And this was no fiction but a reall deed What should I tell you how Laurentius a secular person was Arbiter in a dispute betwixt Augustine and Pascortius an Arian as appeares by Austineâ— Aepist 178 Or how Marcellinus a Tribune did preside by the appointment of Honorius the Emperour at a conference betwixt the Orthodox and the Donatists as Augustine holds forth Tom. 7. in Brevic. Collat Doe not all these make it evident that the Ancient Church did not apprehend such impossibility of finding out the true sense of Scripture without the previous decision of an Infallible visible judge How did Christ command us to Search the Scriptures John 5.39 if their sense be unsearchable Is not this on controversie in Religion whether there be a necessity of an Infallible visible judge and Propounder and who he is And who I pray you shall determine this if not the Scriptures If you have an Infallible Propounder without whose decision the sense of Scripture cannot be attained how injurious is he to the Christian World who will not put forth a clear Comment upon the Whole Scriptures for the finall decision of all Controversies Why doth he not at least give a Decision concerning these inrestine debates among your selves as betwixt your Dominicans and Jesuits c. Are you so farre deluded as not to know that this Fable of Infallibility is the cunning imposture whereby men of your imployment have laboured of a long time to cheat the World But now these of the Traditionarie way among you beginne to perceive that the World is too wise to be still cheared by that one Trick therefore they are betaking themselves to another Method but as fallacious as the former You have a Querie which you expect that I should notice You desire to know When Luther leapt out of the Church of Rome as you phrase is if there was any Church on earth with whome he had visible Communion May ye not be ashamed to move such a Question to me I having convicted you of so many Falshoods and Foolries concerning your last discourse of Luthers separation from Rome and of a Lying Prophesie which you following Bellarmine and Cachlaeus imposed
our faith though we did not prove it Our Negative is only a declaration that your five super added Sacraments are no part of our faith But if you prove them not to be Sacraments you succumb in proving an article of your Romish faith How scurvily then deale you who require us to prove the Negative which is no article of our faith and yet shunne to prove the contradictorie affirmative which without question is an article of your Romish faith How little candor you have shewed in this matter by these particulars may be discerned Yet to give a touch of the Question in particulare that the State thereof may be clear betwixt us know that we doe not affirme that the word Sacrament is to be found in Scripture neither doe we deny but in a large sense as some have taken it pro signo rei sacrae for an holy signe or the signe of an holy thing which is the first definition given by Bellarmine lib. 1. de Sacramentis in genere cap. 11. out of Austine and Bernard it may be attributed to many things beside Baptisme and the Lords Supper as to Christs washing of the Disciples feet to the holy kisse used in Scripture times c. Shortly therefore leaving both the Etymologie of the word Sacrament about which Criticks have travelled and the various definitions of a Sacrament given by Divines of both sides When we affirme that there be two Sacraments only in the new Testament we understand by a Sacrament of the new Testament a substantial visible signe instituted by GOD since the incarnation of the Son of GOD recorded in the Gospel to seal up the promises of salvation which is to endure in the Church to the end of the World Where we doe require these things to the nature of a proper Sacrament of the new Testament First that it be a substantial visible signe instituted by GOD since the incarnation and recorded in the Gospel That it be a signe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is not only held forth by the Apostle Rom. 4.11 and by the Ancient Fathers of the Church but also is acknowledged by your Bellarmin lib. 1. de sacram in genere cap. 9. That it be instituted of GOD is not only proven from Scripture by our Divines but also is acknowledged in the Definition of your Roman Catechism part 2. cap. 1. qu. 6. That it be instituted since the Incarnation I suppose you cannot deny to distinguish it from the Sacraments of the Old Testament of which we are not now debating I adde likewise that it must not only be a sensible Signe but also Visible to distinguish it from the preached Word which is a sensible and audible Signe but not Visible and this Austine holds forth in that famous sentence of his Tract 80. in Johannem Accedit verbum ad elementum fit sacramentum ipsum quasi visibile verbum Where he clearly distinguishes the Element which becomes a Sacrament from the audible Word Hence Chamier lib. 1 de sacram in genere cap. 14. § 6. brings in Damascen calling Sacraments 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Visible Symbols of intelligâ—le mysteries Hence also was that definition of a Sacrament by your Master of sentences Lombard lib. 4. sent dist 1. tit B. Invisibilis gratiae visibilis forma A visible signe of invisible grace Bellarmins cavills against the visibilitie of sacramentall Elements are learnedly confuted by Chamier in the place last cited lib. 1. de sacram in gen cap. 14. It is further required to the nature of a proper Sacrament that it be a substantial signe for it must be such a signe as may coÌ„gruonsly be termed an Element as it is frequently designed not only by Ancients but also by your Roman Catechism particularly part 2. cap. 1. quast 8. and likwise have an Analogie with the thing signified else sayeth Austine epist 23. Sacramenta omnino non essent They should not be sacraments at all I know Bellarmine lib. 1. de sacram in genere cap. 14. quartels with Chemnitius that he required that the institution of a Sacrament be found in Scripture It is enough sayes Bellarmine that the divine institution thereof be proven But these Arguments whereby our Divines prove Scripture to containe all articles of faith conclude irrefragably that they containe the divine institution of all properly so called Sacraments Yet if you or any will prove to me the divine institution of any Ordinance I shall never declyne to accept of a divine institution whether writen or not when it is solidly proven but surely you must out-strip Bellarmine Valentia and the test of your Champions before you prove the divine institution of unwriten sacraments Secondly it is required to the nature of a proper Sacrament that it be a seale of the promises of salvation or of the righteousnesse of faith as the Apostle phraseth it Rom. 4.11 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Where though the Apostle be treating of Circumcision yet he gives a general Description of a Sacrament which doth compet to Circumcision and to all other Sacraments I know that Bellarmine and other your Authors quarrel at this clause of the Description but the Objections against this you may find abundantly discussed in Whitaker de sacramentis quaest 1. cap. 4. Gerard de sacram cap. 3. sect 2. § 17.18.19 and in Chamter lib. 2. de sacram in genere cap. 9. It is Thirdly required that a sacrament of the new Testament be to endure in the Church to the end of the World which Bellarmine himself acknowledges lib. 1. de sacram in genere cap. 14. and on both sides it is confessed that proper Guspel Sacraments must endure so long as there is a Visible Church on Earth And this doth exclude from the nature of a proper Sacrament those Visible signes which were used under the Gospel but were not perpetually to endure in the Church This being shortly premised coÌ„cerning the nature of a SacrameÌ„t we doe affirme that in this sense there be only two proper Sacraments in the New Testament viz. Baptism and the Lords Supper Or as others expresse it that there is no other Ordinance under the Gospell which may be so termed a Sacrament as Baptisme and the Lords-Supper Neither are we the first who judge so Doth not Austine lib. 2. de symbolo ad Catechumenos cap. 6. call them expresly Gemina Ecclesiae Sacramenta The two twin Sacraments of the Church Was it ever heard that Gemina signified Seven or more then Two And againe the same Austine Epist 118. Sayes that the Sacraments of the Gospell are numero paucissima significatione facillima then instancing only in the sacraments of Baptisme and the LORDS-Supper But if there were seven Sacraments yea or more then two they could not be numero paucissima the fewest for number what ever exceeds two is not the least number I know the usuall subterfuge of your Authors that Augustin in the last cited place addeth these words Et si quid aliud in
there any word either in the Hebrew or Greek exactly correspondent to the strict notion of a Sacrament which is not extended to other things which neither you nor we hold for Sacraments as Chamter bath demonstrated Lib. 1. de Sacramentis in genere capp 3.4 And besides Ancient Fathers have used the word Sacrament in so large a sense that they have designed many things by this name which on all sides are acknowledged to be no proper Sacraments As Austine gives the name of a Sacrament lib. 2. de peccatorum merit is remissione cap. 26. to the meat given to Catechumens and lib. 4. de Symâ—olo cap. 1. to Exercismes lib. 19. contra Faustum cap. 14. to the signe of the cross yea lib de bono conjugali cap. 18. to Polygamie none of which you Romanists will acknowledge as Sacraments So that according as the word Sacrament is taken in a larger or stricter sense PROTESTANTS doe not deny but there may be said to be more or fewer Sacraments Yea if the word be taken largely Doctor Featly in his Stricturae in Lindo-Mastigem pag. 90. will grant that it may be said that there be not only seven but seventeen Sacraments And Doctor Whitaker praelect de Sacramentis quaest 6. cap. 1. will admit that seven times seven may be found in Ancient Fathers and Doctor Morton in his Appeale lib 2 cap. 26. Sect. 5. ascends to seventy seven And Crakanthorp in defensione Ecclesiae Anglicanae contra Spalat cap. 30. § 1. spares not to affirme that you may aswell number seventie times seven as seven And Hierom as cited by Gerard de Sacramentis cap. 1. § 6 sayes Sacramenta Dei sunt praedicare benedicere confirmare communionem reddere visitare infirmos orare And Tertullian lib. 4. contra Marcion cap. 2. calls all Christianitie a Sacrament Religionis Christianae Sacramentum How little weight some of our great ' Divines have laid on this Controversie you may see in learned Whitaker loco citato where he spares not to say that barely to extend the name of a Sacrament to other things which are not so properly called Sacraments Error est non admodum periculosus is not an error of dangerous consequence provyding there be not Ordinances brought into the Church which are not of divine institution And learned Master Baxter in his Treatise of Confirmation pag. 88. 89. propos 10. grants that there are more then seven Sacraments in the largest sense that there be five in a large sense but only two Baptisme and the Lords Supper in the strictest sense Is this the Characteristick for distinguishing a True Religion from a False where a Caviller may wrap himself up in such Logomachies Have not some of your Divines affirmed that a Sacrament cannot be defyned as Occam Major and Richardus cited by your own Bellarmine lib. 1. de Sacramentis in genere cap. 10 But one thing is remarkable that among all the various acceptions of the word Sacrament in Ancient writers there was never one of them who determined the number of proper Sacraments to be seven neither more nor lesse as you Romanists doe to day How unhappie then were you to pitch on this particular Controversie seeing the precise septenarie number of Sacraments can never be proven either from Scripture or Antiquity You may consider what a low ebbe in this matter you are at when your Bellarmine lib. de effect sacram cap. 24. is put to that shift Non debere adversarios petere à nobis ut ostendamus in Scripturis vel Patribus nomen septeuarii numeri Sacramentorum Scripturae enim Patres non scripserunt Gatechismum That is Our Adversaries he means PROTESTANTS should not demaund of us to shew either from Scripture or Fathers the name of the number of seven Sacraments For the Fathers wrote not Cathechisms Yet we shall hear the same Cardinal a little after rendring this as the reason why Ambrose and Cyril of Jerusalem did not reckon our seven Sacraments because they did write to Catechumens Is this the pregnancie of your Jesuits Acumen to use contradictorie Mediums to prove the same Conclusion Sometime thus the Fathers wrote not Cathechisms therefore they did not expresse the desinit number of seven Sacraments And at another time inferre the same Conclusion because they did write Catechisms May not such Sophisters inferr Quidlibet ex quolibet But sure it is Cyril of Jerusalem did write Catechisms why then did not he at least mention your Septenarie of Sacraments I suppose your Council of Florence and Trent were not writing Cathechisms when they targht a Septenarie of them But our Divines deale liberally with you in this matter They stand nor upon words They demand not the name of the number of seven They only ask a real demonstration of a precise septenarie though not in so many words Hence Doctor Mortone in the place last quoted We exact not sayeth he the name of the number of seven but only as two and three make five so would we have demonstrated that any of the Fathers in any place of their writings of the Sacraments of the New-Testament did give any certaine intimation of the number of seven Can PROTESTANTS be more condescending in their demands Yet this could never be performed by any of you A cleare evidence that all your Popish Party cannot Proselyte me to you in this point For they cannot shew that either Scripture or Fathers did approve the pretent Romish faith concerning a precise Septenarâ—e of properly so called Sacraments of the New-Testament Thirdly had you been a persone of ingenuity would you not first have cleared these articles of your Religion which I have impugned in my former Papers before you had started a new Question But by your deepe silence as to these it is easie to guesle what satisfaction is to be expected from you as to this Nay Fourthly is it not a meer Negative whereof you demand the Probation from me That there be only two Sacraments For you say It is not the probation of two but that there are no more then two which you desire so that it is a meer Negative you would have me proving Now would not all the reason of the World say that ye who mantaine the Affirmative viz that there be more then two properly so called Gospel Sacraments and that there be precisely seven Ought to prove this your Assertion and that we are sufficiently warranted to mantaine the Negative untill you prove the Affirmative for Ab authoritate negativa in rebus fidei optima est consequentia You must also know our Positives are the articles of our faith and by the Negatives which we mantaine in opposition to you we declare that your errors are no part of our faith so that when you lay the whole stresse upon your proving this Negative that there are no more then two Sacraments you doe not require us to prove an Article of our faith nor should we succumb in proving an article of
approbation of your Authorised Licencers to the eternal ignominy of your Church But Thirdly it appeared say you By the Conference betwixt us that we often propounded in Pulpit problematick points in stead of your Dogm's How so I pray you Was there nothing spoken of in that conference but of School-Problems Did I not conclude the impietie of your Romish Religion because it destroyes all certainty of divine faith from your Florentine and Tridentine Canons which suspend the efficacie of Sacraments from the intention of the Administrator For all certainty of divine faith according to you Is grounded upon the infallible assistance of your clergie But if Ordination which is one of your Romish Sacraments depend upon the intention of the Ordainer you can have no certainty of faith who are your Clergie men or who have this pretended Infallible assistance For how can you be certaine of other mens intētions To this you had not the confidence to make any Reply Can you say that this is a meer Problem Are the Canons of Councils problems with you Is it a Probleme among you whether that be an impious Religion which destroyes all certainty of faith But perhaps you will say There was another question tossed whether a man after he hath sinned be bound presently to repent I confesse and the sober Christian may judge how much that man differs from an Atheist who affirmes this to be a Problematick point Yet to put a stop to your lying misrepresentations concerning this particular I must crave leave to doe these two things I shall first give a true account how that Question concerning Repentance came to be moved at the Conference and in Order to this I must give a touch of the occasion of the Conference sit self Secondly I shall examine a little whether that point may justly be reckoned among Problems and how far it may be charged upon your Church of Rome You may readily exclaime on these discourses as Digressions but I am drawne to them by your Calumnies For the First the real occasion of that Conference and of moving that Question at the Conference was this In April last I received two challenges from a Gentle-Man of your profession The First was that I had wronged your Authors by affirming some dayes before in a Sermon concerning Repentance that many of your Doctors did mantaine That when people sinne they are not bound immediatly to repent Yea the Gentle-Man was so confident as to promise by the Messenger whome he sent to me that he would turne PROTESTANT if I would make good that my Assertion To whome I answered that I was sure of a convert if the Gentle-Man would stand to his promise and if he would come to my Studie his eyes should be judge whether my Assertion were true by reading their own Authors Some dayes after the Gentle-Man came to me not to have the truth of his former challeng examined but with a New provocation to me and to my Colegue Master MELDRVM who then was with me to debate at his Lodging with a Catholick scholer as his phrase was concerning the truth of the Religion of PROTESTANTS We told him we knew how conferences of that nature had been misrepresented by Papists and therefore to obviat such misrepresentations we condescended with him upon some Conditions of the meeting which you know were violated by your Party When we came after we had regrated the violation of promise made to us I told I had received the Two foresaid Challenges and desired you who there appeared as their Champion First to answere whether I had wronged your Authors in the forementioned Assertion concerning Repentance and then we should willingly disput the point of Religion not against you onely but against the whole Conclave of Rome if they had been there present To the First you refused to give an Answere and as to the Second you said You came onely to impugne the Religion of PROTESTANTS but not at all to answere arguments against your Romish Religion But it was Replyed to you that our Religion was not onely the truth of GOD but also was established by the Law of the Land and therefore we could not suffer it onely to be questioned in such a publick way But would you answere us Six arguments against Your Religion we should answere you other Six arguments against Ours Or would you answere us Two we should answere you other Two But you stifly denyed to answere at all till at length by the importunity of your friends you were moved to condescend to answere Yet as to the Matter of fact Concerning the Doctrine of Repentance you utterly refused to answere at al unlesse I would frame it in an Argument against Your Religion Wherefore to gaine time and to satisfie the Gentle-Man who had been my Accuser I framed an argument in more general termes concerning the Doctrine of Repentance then I had spoken thereof in Pulpit hoping to have had liberty thereafter to propound Other arguments of more general concernment against Your Religion The argument touching Repentance ran thus The religion which teacheth that a man when he hath sinned is not bound presently to repent is impious But the Popish religion teacheth that a man when he hath sinned is not bound presently to repent Ergo the Popish religion is impious You admitted the Minor and denyed the Major That it was an impious religion which so taught Whereupon I tooke all the Auditors to witnesse and in special the Gentle-Man who had been my Accuser that you admitted this to be the doctrine of the Romish Church That a man who hath sinned is not bound presently to repent And consequently that I had spoken truth when I affirmed from Pulpit that many of Your Romish Doctors taught this But now you being ashamed that you should have admitted such a Doctrine which all sober Persons are ready to cry down as impious to be the doctrine of the Church of Rome you have devysed this after-evasion to terme it a Problematick point Whether it ought to be looked upon as a probleme I may speake a little anone Now let the Reader observe This question concerning Repentance was onely moved by me to vindicat my self from the accusation of the Gentle-Man who had provoked me to the Disput hoping to have had occasion for Other Arguments afterwards And therefore when you had admitted the Assumption that is was the doctrine of Your Romish Church I would have left that argument as having obtained all by it which I intended Yea I did propound the argument in larger termes then I had spoken of that matter in the Pulpit onely to extort an Answere from you So that whether it be a Problematick point or not you could conclude nothing from it as to the ordinary straine of our preaching seeing you refused to speake to it in these termes wherein we delivered it in Pulpit Nay more whoever will terme this point a Probleme yet you are not In bonâ fide to doe it